e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e this meeting to order Marty would you please call the role council member Mark Greg here council member Elizabeth Jolan here council member Henry Rosenthal yes vice mayor Sharon Mahoney here and mayor buddy Pender here we have a quorum okay all right thank you Marne uh Daniel uh I've asked well I've asked Daniel would you join us in the pledge please to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible withy and justice for all all righty okay Pastor Tony Hammond can you come lead us in a prayer please Mr ball coach yeah it feels strange this time of the night to not have my basball un call Coach I I left him on the field alone so actually no I said there's a bag of ice over there so I sit down if anything happens I have another coach there tonight so we're in good shape all right let's uh let's pray together heavenly father I thank you so much for this evening I thank you for our counsel I thank you for each person that's here tonight we pray your blessing over this meeting in every way uh may we just be governed by your thoughts minds and and all that we do and uh thank you for the service that each person puts in here in your precious name amen amen okay Council any uh requests for deletion or additions Mr Mayor I'd like to ask about a possible order change on the lineup for tonight um I believe there's a number of members in the audience who are here for the item related to the church and I thought it might be nice uh courtesy to allow that item to go first so they can go back home to their families and have dinner tonight that sounds good to me long as everybody else agrees with it okay so we got it so let's see what we're going to do here then we will move move uh let's see a then or is it all right John if we move uh or Rob you can chime in yeah you can if you want to sounds like you are moving up E and F okay to the front and then what I'll do normally when I uh read the Quasi judicial when I introduce the Quasi judicial items um Marne will swear everybody in for all items what I'll do since this is going to be taken out of order and we'll take the other quasa judicial later I'll read this in uh the script and we'll swear them in just for that item and then we'll do it again that way in case anybody comes late um for the other items they they can still participate in the other items do we want to do this after the after a the the tab C about the uh the approval of residential building permits or is that all right or we want to do it before it let's do it first okay all right so we'll move this first then okay all right and I was going to ask um on this one if wanted to do the two jointly like we did with the ones on Tuesday night because they're related and again it would be the same information repeated twice right um so if you wanted to hold them as and we just just have to check with the applicant to make sure that that was okay okay all right Council are we okay doing that with the church stuff yeah okay all right okay so if we don't have that's it then uh nothing else so confirm with the uh the applicant no issues with that I don't know if a uh represent resentative of the applicant you're good with that okay thank you all right so they're good all right so we'll move on to reports presentations and announcements so presentation presentation comparison of habitat Village uh versus the code and Jennifer yes thank you and Daniel thank you I'll just do a brief introduction then let Daniel have his five minutes Spotlight um this uh item is on your after Action Report U PL 23-6 um at your meeting in November I think but was November 9th 2023 um the council had asked staff to do a comparison of the environmental standards in the village code with those in the Monroe County code um Daniel parach our village biologist and Senior environmental planner has done the thorough review and has provided that report to you in your packet he's going to do a a brief report and present his findings um and then we can have some discussion about that okay okay Daniel uh I'll try to keep this brief um so uh as Jennifer said at the November meeting uh there were some questions regarding the village code and how it compares to the county code specifically if the definitions were the same if we were missing definitions and how the two codes compare in general um so as a note this is just a general comparison um as everybody here knows codes have caveats you know specific conditions and exemptions um I try not to get too far in the weeds with that U and a disclaimer I'm an expert on the village code not quite an expert on the county code so if there's a question that I'm unable to answer tonight I promise I will do the research and get you an answer as soon as possible um the best way to get to begin I'll start with the summary and then I'll go into a little bit more detail um to to summarize in general the county and Village definitions are very similar if not word for word the only definition that the village does not have that the county has is Disturbed salt marsh and Buttonwood um I don't think this was an intentional emission I think it kind of got lost when the code was originally being written um overall it appears that the county is more restrictive on developments within protected habitats um with the caveat that the county seems to place greater emphasis on limiting development on larger environmentally sensitive Lots um this may be due to the county size and the number of large tracks of land versus the The Villages for narrow um relatively narrow Islands uh the village code emphasizes limiting development on the most sensitive habitat types uh the biggest difference I found between the two codes is how clearing is calculated based on existing conditions the county uses conditions existing in 1986 as the Baseline and the village uses the current legally existing conditions as the Baseline when you're calculating clearing limits um good time to help summarize all this information there's a a chart in my report um I'll just run through it really briefly the county requires an existing conditions report we require a habitat analysis they're essentially the same um the county requires a benic survey we also require benic surveys uh the county list habitats in order of sensitivity we group habitat types into three different groups based on sensitivity the county clearing percentages range from 20 to 40% The Village clearing percentages range from range from 10 to 50% the county has a maximum clearing uh limitation of 7,500 Square F feet in the village the maximum clearing is based on habitat type and proposed development cleared areas are considered vegetated when calculating clearing allowances within the county and in the village it's based on the current legal existing conditions again in the county in 198 1986 conditions are used as a Baseline and only increases of vegetative cover are allowed to be calculated and in the village again the current legally existing conditions are used um following that table there's another table that kind of just compares the definitions um in that you'll see again the Disturbed salt marsh Buttonwood is the only definition that we don't have that the county has um with that being said they do have four different habitat types that we don't have which makes sense why we don't have them in our code um and those are high and low hammock which we only have high hammock Cactus hammock Palm hammock and pilin and those don't occur within the village reports and documentation uh the village and the county uh documents are essentially the same we just use different names for them uh habitat type and sensitivity the county lists the habitat types in order from most most to least sensitive with their most sensitive habitat being Cactus hammock and they're least sensitive being disturbed with Exotics The Village uh has a similar ranking we just break our our habitats into three classes class one being the most sensitive containing Wetlands Hammock Beach burm class class two kind of being the middle ground and that contains you disturbed with hammock Disturbed with Beach burm Disturbed salt marsh and class three being the least sensitive with Disturbed and Disturbed with Exotics Baseline conditions so this is the the biggest difference between the two codes um I have a couple excerts here from the county so in Monroe County the conditions legally existing as of February 28th 1986 shall be used as a baseline to determine clearing allowances this information may be supplemented by new Aerials and site analysis to determine increases of native vegetative cover only Upland native vegetated areas cleared between 1986 and present shall be considered still to still contain Upland native vegetation for purposes of determining amounts of clearing permitted um in comparison to that the village is simply says the current legal existing conditions are used to determine clearance all clearing allowances permittable clearing per habitat type is assessed cumulatively from February 2886 to present and major development sites approv prior to 86 shall not be permitted to clear additional habitat beyond the original approval so that was the biggest difference I found um and at the the end of my report I've included some reference material since I couldn't cover everything tonight um the county and Village definitions are listed in full so you can compare them directly uh relevant code sections that I could fit are are in there and then code sections that were too long for the report are referenced by section number so that's my general comparison and I will answer any questions Council any questions for Daniel yeah um thanks for this report I think it's super helpful um I just um also was wondering if you could come back with any um recommendations you might have for how you know what you're seeing as you look at our code indep ly and and versus the county code um as as the expert in this field was that something that we could look for Daniel would you like a little Direction on that I mean I think I'm reading his mind a little bit because we've talked about this um I I'm interested in what you're interested in so I think there are some areas that are um um hot so we would want to look at um U how to better protect uh hammock areas and clearing ratios and and and how those are graded would that be one area um there and um maybe that's the bigger one and then well he needs some policy Direction I think is what he's asking for and I think that um that you're probably I imagine that you're more qualified to do that than than we are um and and I would love to see that come back if that's something that we can agree on Daniel I I think personally he just needs to try to keep it simple and keep it every Everybody the residents understand it these applicants understand it and and because it does get complicated oh 100% I think I think that that's the beauty of having um an expert like Daniel take a look at this um what I I know what I've found is that that the best experts can can explain in the most simple terms complicated matters because this is a complicated one and and I would love to to see more um to see your analysis what what are you seeing and and where where should we go with this are we in agreement as a council to ask for that coming back from Daniel Elizabeth I I think another thing is is I mean we have to think about it when when I got my administrative relief they wanted to put stronger stuff on it but konus came back that night night attorney represent me and you know I was allowed to clear 50% but they couldn't because of our codes they couldn't have Force anything you know more than what our codes say so we gota you know we got to make sure that we're not trying to if if if if it says one thing but then we're trying to make a certain person with a with a we're singling out that one particular lot you know we we we can't it's got to be good for all I guess what I'm saying you know maybe Mark maybe do you have a comment to that I I think I'm having trouble explaining what I'm looking for well I can recall that when we had a land use matter a couple of years ago um we discovered that we had been looking at things uh there there had been some interpretations for example how to calculate the size of a hammock and we learned that we don't just look at the property in question we go beyond its boundaries and we look at the abing properties and and we even skip over roads roads are not con certain roads us one is not but intervening roads and driveways are not considered a break in the hammock when measuring the size and so that allowed us to have a much more precise um uh examination of the issue that was involved in that thing and to come up with a better answer and the the trend has been as I can see it in you know 38 years here is that uh we don't every day or every year we lose a little hammock and so the demand for that is greater and the need to protect that is even greater and so things that you know our comp plan is now 24 years old so I think it would be wise to look at that and see you know how much hammock have we lost since those original regulations were in place and how can we go about protecting those while maintaining a respect for property rights and and it's going to boil down to we either permit it or we buy it and that's my personal view so why don't we let Daniel come back and then we look at it let's let Daniel come back and we look at it and see instead of you know let's let him do his job that's what I was asking yeah it's exactly what what I think that we were getting at so as an expert he could make some suggestions and and find some creative ways to to um to take a look at that all right Daniel you got it got it you know I'm going to just request that that go on our after Action Report how do you feel about that I I feel like we're all in agreement I know but I don't think it needs to be on I mean he's just when he gets it done he no that's the point of bringing it back it's okay I mean I don't I don't see any harm in putting it on the report it's just a a helpful reminder in my view and I I would say that it has to be woven in and amongst the other planning issues and duties and chores that we've piled on them so um don't want anything urgent to get neglected by that absolutely and I that and that is the beauty of our report of our action after Action Report just an ongoing reminder can I just before Daniel walks away I just want to be clear you understand the direction or do you need to get them to give you clearer Direction be honest specificity is always in my favor so so can we have some more clear Direction because I don't want to walk away from this meeting with an assumption that we know what you guys are looking for and then we don't proceed with the direction that you've asked for I think this is a pretty simple request and that we're asking the expert in this area for any kind of Direction any any kind of suggestion or direction that might be helpful in order to improve this considering what you're seeing in our development side well do we want to be in in the areas say for example in the county they have areas in their code that are uh more protective than ours would we want to amend our procedures to be more protective not necessarily exactly the same but more towards protection I don't think we want to move away from protection um or status quo um my my personal view would be more protection so if that's if that's what I'm asking is the council looking for direction for Daniel to come back with suggestions to make the code more more string more protective or something else Henry you want to chime in on this no I think it's a little premature myself we have a car plan and other things that have to be adjusted to the needs of today versus the needs of 25 years ago so once that's completed I think that will assist you greatly in some of your decision making okay Sharon vice mayor I'm good you good okay so I just wanted to say one thing we discovered in the earlier luse thing is that um and and I and I didn't say anything earlier uh and I don't like to disagree uh with Daniel but he often um points out my errors too so it's fair um we discovered you know our our code is founded in part in this area at least on what the county did in 1986 as he referenced that there are a series of these Baseline Maps we've talked about them before they used to be kept in the building department on these big sheets in a rack and you could look at them and for years we've had trouble finding them um Brian Cook found them and we have them now I have a copy on a zip drive and what those serve to be is and he did mention it in part where any development that's occurred around 86 or after uh if they've maxed out on their clearing and it's tied back to that 86 Baseline they have no further clearing to be done so uh it also provides that those Baseline Maps can be updated and that's what I think he was referring to by existing conditions but I would like to make sure that those Baseline um standards and and conditions are clearer in our code because I personally don't think that they are and that's how they kind of got lost in the mix because you have to look for it you have to know where to find it and it's in the comp plan as well so that's one area Daniel I would like to and I can speak with you privately about that if that's not a problem and point it out rather than and spend time hashing it out here so that that would be my suggestion there okay so so Daniel what Henry just said with the comp plan it isn't some of this stuff going to be will be changed in the comp plan or not when we redo our comp plan it'll get changed together if if you are looking for some suggestions in the code when that gets officially updated the comp plan will be updated at the same time specifically for these sections and I did I mean I just sorry I wanted to add one last thing um when the in generally when you're comparing the county to us their code reads a little bit more simpler they paint with a broad brush when I read our code after reading theirs our code is is you're able to narrow down specific protections or allowances based on what's in the village um it's much more specific it may be more complicated but I think it's much more applicable to our area um is there a happy medium I can try to come up with some suggestions being a little bit more protectionist but and also simplifying um it's tough but I I'll try to do my best to get you guys some suggestions man for the job I think you got it under control all right all right thanks guys all right thank you sir Jennifer you okay okay all right all right so we can move on then okay so uh with that being said uh Mary uh do we have some people for public comment we're going to open public comment yes we do first up we have van cman head this is general public comment if it's on a tab we we'll talk we'll have comment on the tab good evening I'm van kenad um my comment tonight is uh about the agenda format for this evening um mayor uh Village attorney and Village manager communication uh ab and C is a is update on ISS isues of lots fronting US1 for affordable housing uh B is moved from April 9th B pass in County Ro rogo update and request for Council Direction and C is move from April 9th guidelines for reservation of affordable allocations now I'm speaking to you in public comment before any of those things are discussed um I think that the public would like to comment on all three of those items but after you people have your discussion on them and I think the public should be allowed to comment on those items because um you're essentially putting the cart before the horse you're putting me here before I've gotten to hear you uh speak your peace on those three items and this happens quite often and and essentially you're cutting the legs out from under the people who would like to comment on these important items by by bearing in them as a village attorney Village manager Communications I mean that's fine but if you would allow public comment on those items before general public comment I think it would be much more uh conducive to you people getting the idea of what the people are thinking about these particular items so um uh the issues of lots frontting US1 uh rogo and the affordable housing uh allocations are all very essential important items and I think the people would like to hear your discussion of them which is upcoming in in Village attorney Village manager communication but then they should be allowed to comment individually on all three of those items that's my comment thank you very much thank you man Marne anybody else yes next is John Fernandez good afternoon ladies and gentlemen for those you may not know me I've I've been in the village for 20 some OD years eight years I was the chair of the LPA so I know how the LPA functions and also I served in the two uh Charter review committees that we had in the village since I've been here and uh the reason I'm mention this is because there needs to be some background as why some people stand up here and say something because there's been some comments made that you know people come up here and they don't know what they're talking about they just want to you chout and not do anything positive so that's the reason I'm saying giving you a bit more my background first of all I want to commend I'm not going to complain today I'm going to commend three individuals specifically councilman Council Rosenthal Council woman Mahoney and our our mayor uh Pinder and the reason why I'm saying this is it seems that every couple of years we get somebody in here that the first comes out of their mouth is we want to change to four years that's the first thing that comes out and we don't want four years when I was the chair of the of the um um the uh LPA that came up and we don't recommend that it came up when we had our uh our the the review of our Charter and we put it on the we we we allowed it to go forward to a vote and it was totally sent back say no it was done again a couple years later and it was voted again with a higher uh margin in terms of toring it down and the reason I'm saying is this their votes have consequences so these individuals that serve who continue to say we need to have four years when their vote comes up when they're they come up to to vote in sept in November remember what they did they tried to change it from two years to four years votes have consequences so that's something we need to keep in mind um I I know we have long meetings and one of the reasons why we have long meetings is because we talk a lot about an issue and it never ends it never ends it keep I can I watch it at home by the way and my wife says don't you have better things to do I said no I got to watch that because I want to see how long it takes before they go to another subject and this just just this meeting right here the first subject that came up look how long it took us to get over that that one item I don't know how many items we have going this for this particular meeting but it takes a lot of time and people after a while start leaving because they don't want to sit here until 11:00 at night and then issues that they come come up and give information on they don't you don't give that they don't get that information because uh they're tired of sitting here so again I want to commend the three of you for what you did especially the the the uh mayor because you turned and we appreciate that you had voted one way and then you turn around and changed it okay and that's the reason why we don't have that in the November uh elections okay I appreciate that thank you thank you John Mar anybody else yep Joe wishme is next yes Joe wishm Plantation key Mr Mayor and Council I was very happy to see The Compassion shown by Council regarding the noise parking and traffic associated with vacation rentals I wonder where that compassion was when you voted to put a bar Distillery with outdoor Amplified music and operating hours till 1:00 a.m. on weekends in my residential neighborhood oh but I guess I regress adding adding more code enforcement to catch more illegal renters and violators is long overdue I commend what the new manager has said I am skeptical however that this can be accomplished in a few months since it has been going on for many many years I remain very hopeful and positive and wish the best of luck speaking of codes I know that in the past there has been a question as to whether or not uh particular residence was a duplex well I have owned duplexes in the past and because they're multif family was required to have two mailboxes that means two addresses two electric meters and two edus that I had to pay for to cover Water and Sewer I believe your requirements are the same so that should be fairly easy to figure out whether or not there is a duplex or not regarding the LPA I know that there has been talk about the council trying to take that over I know that your plates are so full now that you have a hard time making time for the meetings and gosh we have some 600 pages in some of the agendas so I would hope that you would keep the LPA with the citizens that would help avoid any suspicion of any improprieties about the work that the LPA does before it comes to councel keeping it with the citizen would ease your workload and I think that you all would be in favor of that as promised at Tuesday's meeting I have copy of the 19 uh requirements for The Distillery that our village manager and one for each of the council members just to remind you that especially notice on number four the outdoor seating area maximum is 32 seats and the one thing that was changed which I have the amendment I had to go to page 106 on the transcript to find it but the music hours will end by 8:00 Sunday through Thurs Thursday and 9:00 Friday and Saturday and number nine of this states that violations will have to come back to the council and then the council can remove the major conditional use permit and terminate the operation in the event of violations please work with the residents of the neighborhood and also the owners of The Distillery to make sure that we have good compliance thank you thank you Mar anybody else yes step Gillis thank you good evening Council um I'm Deb Gillis Isa marada I just wanted to um Talk a second about the some of the items that you have coming up uh later on your agenda you have several items that it's a Flo and Zoning changes these were not um originally uh they they they got changed when the village came into existence most of them I think all of them you have tonight maybe maybe one does not but um and and it was I was around during that time it was um I don't want to call what they did wrong but it it was mass noticed and so therefore it was not specific to the properties many of the people did not know know that it was a crazy time um if I hadn't been working uh on the side in some of the committees or something I may have not got some of my properties zoned the way it should have been the way it was in the county so when you read that tonight just just keep that in mind that some of the county stuff got changed when we came into existence and the people really didn't know that it was happening thank you thank you Deb Marney anybody else no sir okay with that being said public comment is now closed okay so we will move on to there's uh any is there any uh anybody have anything with the mayor counsel Communications all right we can move on from that then Henry nothing tonight so far okay we're on to be we're on to uh Village attorney Village manager Communications we're going to do the church thing we are I mean I we're going to do it like before we get into all the rest well I thought we do we will do that after we get down where we get the resolutions we'll put it right there yeah y hey thanks for the clarification okay all right unless hey John can we go ahead and do the church thing now and we do this afterwards yeah you guys can move it up to the front and no problem I can okay then let's do it everybody in agreement yes okay all right all right so we are into quasa judicial this is going to be tabs E and F um I'm going to uh read the quad judicial notice I'll read it twice tonight because of the the um separation between these two um please be advised that the following agenda items are quad judicial in nature if you wish to comment on these items please inform the village clerk by filling out the available signup form an opportunity for persons to speak on each item will be made available after the applicant and staff have made their presentations on each item as a reminder testimony and quas judicial items will be in person Zoom testimonies not permitted these proceedings will be handled in accordance with the village code requirements all test testimony including public testimony evidence will be made under oath or affirmation additionally each person who gives testimony may be subject to cross-examination if you do not wish to be either cross-examined or sworn your testimony shall be disregarded the general public will not be permitted to cross-examine Witnesses but may uh the public May request the council to ask questions of Staff or Witnesses on their behalf the full agenda packet on each item is hereby entered into the record along with the village code and comprehensive plan any correspondence that was received by Village staff is included in the file and part of the record persons representing organizations must present evidence of their authority to speak for the organization further details on the quad judicial procedures in section u in 30- 256 of the village code may be obtained from The Village at this time I would ask anybody who intends to speak on either tabs e or F which are being heard together um tonight to please raise your hand to be sworn in by the clerk if you intend to speak on those in the matter in which you are about to provide testimony do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth the witnesses have been sworn Mr Mayor uh tabs E and F I will read the captions for those tab e is an ordinance of isar Village violence Florida considering the request of Tai Harris PA agent for Island Community Church Inc to amend The Village's future land use map from public semiu services PS to mixed use mu for the subject property located on upper maak key with real estate number 0042 9- 0000000000 as legally described herein providing for the transmittal this ordinance to the State Department of Commerce and providing for an effective date upon the approval of this ordinance by the State Department of Commerce uh tab f is an ordinance of isar Village of Island Florida considering the request of Tai Harris PA agent for Island Community Church Inc to amend the official zoning map from public semi-public services to um Highway commercial HC for the subject property located on upper mumi key with real estate number 0042 9- 000000000000 as legally described herein providing for the transmittal this ordinance to the state department of Commerce and providing an effective date upon the approval of this ordinance by the State Department of Commerce uh Council before we begin I'd like you to please disclose any expart Communications that you may have had with uh the applicant or anyone else again these are tabs E and F and please include whether the person represented any group or entity as well as a subject matter thank you okay I can go first uh I did speak to Tony a while back uh about this and I've spoke to Ty Harris I have spoken to Mr Hammond to Trevor and to Ty Harris I think I spoke to Ty Harris but I don't remember when well I'm going to refuse myself from this um tab for conflict of interest okay Henry Chuck tile Su Miller Dave pekovich you good John we're ready to proceed okay great all right so Jennifer you are up thank you thank you Council Jennifer debrian planning director for the village of Isa marada I'm here this evening um presenting to you the uh application from Island Community Church for its um flum future land use map Amendment and its zoning map Amendment um for the property located at 83250 Overseas Highway um in Upper madaki key the applicant is looking for a future land use map Amendment from public semi-public services to mixed use and a zoning map Amendment from uh I just had it I'm sorry public semi-public services to Highway commercial um the property is currently the home of the island Community Church the church is moving to a property that was formerly the island Christian School and would like to change the designation to repurpose the building to commercial use the subject property is 32,000 Square ft squ foot parcel in Upper madumi the property was originally the home of the original Isa marada movie theater in 1974 the church purchased the property for its congregation the property contains no significant habitat and is mostly devoid of all vegetation the property is not recognized as Habitat to any state or federally listed animal species and is not within the state conservation Recreation lands boundary or critical habitat area pursu to The Village's GIS data and Records the par is not defined as any specific habitat the subject property currently has an existing Public semi-public Services future land use map designation the surrounding properties to the South are designated residential medium to the north the adjacent properties are designated residential medium and mixed use including public supermarket the properties to the West are designated as residential medium and to the east across Overseas Highway in the old road is residential medium the character of the subject property is the existing Church building and Associated infrastructure and the surrounding area is mixed juuse with a collective of real retail businesses multif Family Apartments and single family residences the subject property also has an existing Public semi-public Services zoning District designation the adjacent properties to the South are designated residential single family R1 to the north the adjacent properties are designated residential single family R1 and Highway commercial the properties to the West are designated residential single family R1 and to the east across Overseas Highway and Old Road our residential single family R1 the LPA heard this item at its meeting on March 11th in 2023 and voted to recommend approval by a vote of 5-2 the proposed flum amendment from public semi- service to mixed use in conjunction with its companion application for zoning Amendment from public service to semi-public service to Highway commercial would allow the applicant to repur purpose this property to a commercial use areas designated mixed use on the future land map recognize the prevalent and historical mixed use pattern of development in the village the mixed use designated shall accommodate a mix of commercial and residential uses which may be located in the same building limited public and semi-public uses recreational facilities schools marinas tourist oriented facilities and supportive Community facilities ancillary to the primary uses P pursuant to the standards of the comprehensive plan and Land Development regulations in your packet there's an impact and policy analysis that identifies the impact of the um Plum and Zoning amendments including impact on public facility uh how it identifies in the comprehensive plan and how it is compatible with the principles for guiding development in the Florida Keys area State crial concern designation for the zoning Amendment um the procedures for amendments to the zoning map pursuant to section 30-41 d4b of the code of ordinances The Village Council must find that the application is consistent with the comprehensive plan and the applicant has complied with all procedural requirements of this section and that the maintenance of the existing existing zoning on the property does not accomplish the legitimate public purpose The Village Council shall make its determination on finding a legitimate public purpose based on one of more the following factors demand for the proposed zoning District in the village in relation to the amount of land currently zoned and available to accommodate that demand pursuant to The Village's GS data and Records there are approximately 538 Parcels that are designated within the highway commercial zoning District which represents approximately 7.56% of the total 7,18 Parcels in Isa marata of the 538 Parcels within the highway commercial zoning District 85 Parcels are vacant which equals approximately 15.79% of the total Parcels number two compatibility of the site's physical geological hydrological and other environmental features with the uses permitted in the proposed zoning designation the site is currently developed and has been used as a commercial use Andor church school for many years these uses are compatible within the proposed zoning District data errors including errors in mapping vegetative tipes and natural features described in the comprehensive plan there are no there is no evidence that there are any errors in Village GIS data or records or other resources new issues The Village has accepted 30 00 additional affordable housing units according to the Department of Commerce there is an additional need for commercial space in conjunction with these units recognition of Need for additional detail or comprehensiveness there is no need for additional detail because there are no proposed changes to the subject property at this time compatibility of the proposed District within the property surrounding of the site of the requested Z resoning in any applicable neighborhood or Redevelopment plan as prev previously indicated the subject property currently has an existing Public semi-public Services zoning District designation the adjacent properties to the South are designated residential single family R1 to the north the adjacent properties are designated as residential single family R1 and Highway commercial the properties to the West are designated residential single family R1 and east across Overseas Highway and Old Road Again their residential single family R1 the character of the subject property is an existing church building Associated infrastructure on the surrounding areas mixed use with a collector of retail businesses multif Family Apartments and single family residences at this time the staff has reviewed both requests for flum chain flum Amendment and fish zoning map Amendment from public services to semiu services to mixed use and Highway commercial and has determined that request meets their criteria and therefore the staff recommends the approval of both changes I'm available for any questions okay oh anybody any Council have any questions for Jennifer before we move to the applicant okay Ty good evening Council Tai Harris with the law firm of Tai Harris PA 110 Plantation Shores Drive Taver Florida um it's I think it's kind of appropo that the first of these applications that deals with zoning changes starts with a church um when I was the playing director I called this the original sin of the village and what I mean by that is that when the village Incorporated promises were made to Village residents the first one I think was your tax money is going to stay in town it's not going south to Key West I think the second promise was we as a local government are going to be more responsive to your needs we're going to take care of you better than a disinterested government where the power base is is focused in the south of the county and that seemed to be kind of the the swing to to bring most residents on and vote in favor not all Islands voted in favor but a majority of the islands voted in favor and thus we became the village of Isam marada one of the first acts of the planning department after that was to travel the 18 miles of Isa marada looking at properties to compare the County zoning with what the future zonings would be in the village and during that process it seems to me well it doesn't seem to me it's quite obvious that that a lot of properties on Old Road in US1 which had a commercial designation in the county suddenly were proposed to be down zoned either to a residential conservation or public service I haven't found one and I challenge you to look I have not found one instance where somebody's zoning changed in a way that put value in their pocket all vill did was take millions and millions of dollars out of residents Pockets by changing the zoning not one time did somebody get enriched by as we've heard the term upzoning nobody got upzoned it's not a planning term but it conveys the idea that your property gets more value than it has at the present time so it's a good term in that way so here we are 20s something years later facing the original sin of the village and you may ask why all of a sudden are these applications starting to come in front of the village and I can point to two things the first is that the state legislature a couple of years ago required every municipality and County to add into their comprehensive plan a protection for private property rights doesn't say private zoning doesn't talk about zoning it says private property rights we did that because if we hadn't you could not pass another comprehensive plan Amendment until that was in the second thing is more recent and that is the shans verse city of Marathon case which occurred last summer I don't know that it's going to be a final decision but it really kind of stoked the idea that even if your zoning was changed 20 years ago you may have another entree into the court to get relief and so those two things are kind of the Genesis for I think private property owners going you know what this is the time now to recoup my zoning and get my value back so the church is the first one but it won't be the last one you see you'll see another one tonight and then you're going to see one in a couple months but they're going to keep coming and in this case um as you know this property had a commercial designation in the county and then at some point without individual notice to the church it was changed in both its comprehensive plan and its zoning to Public Public Service public use but essentially public which took away all the commercial entitlements that it enjoyed the village didn't need to do that there's something called arupa it's the religious land use protection act it's a federal act the federal act protects churches in almost every zoning classification not conservation but about every other one so there was no need to change the zoning to down Zone this property all they did was reduce the value of this property by over a million dollar and that's the church's money not your money not my money that's the church's value that the village took away so now is the time that we're going to write the wrongs from the original sin this is the time to do it you have a staff report recommending approval it constitutes competent substantial evidence to support your decision to approve both The Flume and the zoning change and with that I respectfully ask you to look into the audience and every I don't want everybody to get up and speak but everybody that's here in support of the church I would like for them to raise their hands that's your community this is this is us right that's it let's stop hurting our own people so you guys do what other councils haven't done and fixed the darn thing I know there's a lot of dissension this Council doesn't get along but let's start doing a couple things right that we can all agree on and we all agree that if anybody else was doing this it would be called theft if you did it it'd be called stealing the sheriff would come arrest you and you'd be in jail the only people that are allowed to do it are governments but you're supposed to adequately compensate people when you take their property rights that didn't happen so just because something was legal and put in a newspaper down in Key West never makes it right never makes it right and for a town as small as we are to put up with that is disgusting and I'll leave you with one story when I was the planning director um Mike Forester came in and he brought this literally little old lady with him and he said Ty we've got a problem I said okay what's wrong he said she's had this property for 35 years it's always been commercial but she's selling it because she's ready to retire and this is her retirement money okay well let's look it up pull it up on the screen showing residential like huh this was the first time this happened and um we did some more research looking for a map error no was it a map error it was one of the parcels that got caught up in this rezoning it's the only time that I worked in the village in three years that I was embarrassed to wear that damn shirt I felt I'm not that tall but I felt about this tall because here's this lady crying because all the value in her property was gone and she had assumed for 30 years that nothing was had changed so with that I I respect respectfully request that you approve both of these requests and um if you have any questions for me I'm here to answer thank you thank you Ty okay so uh John give me a little help here so we can go to public comment uh we going to have in favor and those that are not in favor correct under under our code it's uh those in favor speak first and then anyone opposed uh would would then speak okay and you know is it okay I say something that Charles Balwin told me years ago when I was playing racketball with him about this thing that Tai just talked about and what this church and what others in this community and I I know there's people in this room that don't want to hear it but I'll tell you something do you might want to wait until after public comment when it's time for uh Council discussion all right thank you okay so uh we going to go those in favor that are signed up to speak Marne would they I have um van Cadenhead Tony Hammond and Deb Gillis all signed up in support to speak okay we're gon call you coach now and no I'm not van Caden head so I'm Tony Hammond 246 jazman Street Alam marada Council good evening again and uh it's good to see you I'm here to respectfully ask you to return the zoning which existed for the church property when it was purchased purchased by the church from Mr ply when it was a cinar theater as a teenager as a young man I climbed up on that sign two or three times a week and changed the Marquee and uh put whatever movie was up and for that I got I think probably 50 cents an hour and got to see all the movies that I wanted to see so I saw a lot of movies back in the day and uh ironically the last movie as our LPA knows the last movie to play at on a theater after we handed the check to Mr ply was a Godfather I climbed up on the Marquee and changed the sign one more time so I read God the father and and that has been the home for Island Community Church since 1974 We Begin immediately to build our Christian School and back in fact the first six weeks we held classes in the in the theater had six grades in there actually nine grades packed in there and we got the elementary building finished we moved in and Island Christian School of course existed um until just a few years ago and so uh in 1989 I became the senior pastor of Island community church and was superintending Island Christian School I until I retired 5 years ago I'm still a board member um and so all that we're talking about tonight happened under my watch and I can assure you that either as a school principal or as a pastor because I was Pastor when the Village was incorporated that there was no signage there was no notification there was no letter there is nothing I've searched uh these guys can tell you I don't throw anything away and I've I've looked at every piece of paper that I have every document that I have nothing uh is in writing that I can find and uh so I have to say it was under my watch the LPA which I serve on right now um I recused myself when we had this conversation but we ruled twice in favor of this uh both uh unanimous decisions 5 Z and uh I want to repeat what uh Attorney Harris said and that is that I don't view this as up zoning I view this as a corrective zoning correcting an issue that has occurred uh on since people knew I was going through this I've been numbers of calls from the community saying oh yeah that happened to my property too by the way and just as you go down us one throughout the village you'll find that uh I could name several of them that have called me and told me about it um there are no environmental issues here uh most of you know I'm a biology teacher as well and I promise you that there's nothing there the only thing that's on the property are some gumball limo trees that I planted in the playground probably back in 1975 that are now there but they're not a hammock by any means um so there no environmental issues there in Island Community Church and ICC IC has been a vital vital part of this community since 1968 when when it was incorporated we continue to do so in the years to come um this year we're giving away and last year in the last three years we give away $50,000 in scholarship money to our local kids both in high school and in college and uh caring for those in Need for the herting uh I can't begin to tell you how many people that uh I have married and buried over the years and I prayerfully hope I never get those confused at any point but it is it it is an ongoing process that I deal with all the time and and the numbers of marriages and lives that have been turned around is pretty incredible uh the fact that we purchased 150 acres to protect the North End Of alamara The Mangrove Community was done for one reason and that was to keep that mangr community mangr community all the property that surrounds the the existing high school property where we want to move uh our facilities too and say to protect and preserve that was the whole purpose of it we are growing we need to move uh we had close to a th people in our two Services over Easter now of course I I get it that's part of the CN crowd but Island Community Church is growing on on a regular basis and we need we need the space so uh one last thing I would request is whether the village chooses to purchase the property or not uh that should not have a bearing on this conversation tonight and I thank you and thank you for your consideration thanks everyone thank you Tony hey why why were switching to Van hey Tony we remember the days that we didn't have to wear shoes to the movie theater and the raccoons got to come in and get popcorn too absolutely all yeah go ahead van I'm van Caden head and i' like to follow behind the comments of both the preceding gentlemen and urge you to uh pass both of these uh changes that need to the retroactive uh changes as well they are because uh they were done uh back in the beginning of the village and and there's going to be as as uh uh Mr Harris said there's going to be a lot more of them coming along because you have deprived a lot of people of the value of their properties and suddenly they're starting to realize that and I think we're going to deal with another case of that this evening uh following behind this so uh I'm just here to uh bolster what uh the pastor said and bolster what uh uh Attorney Harris said because they were both correct in in uh describing the situation and the situation is ongoing so it's uh it's it's good to get off on the right foot and I think this is the most important one to to uh begin to correct the original sin thank you very much thank you van Deb Marne is there anybody else after Debbie that's uh speaking on for it I don't have anyone else signed up to speak on this okay good evening de Gillis this time I I kind of got my LPA hat on I just um Jennifer did bring it up uh that this was in front of us it it was actually a 60 vote with one abstaining Tony abstained of course from that there was um little doubt in anybody's mind at the meeting that night that it had been commercial and that it should be turned to commercial um uh and so we approved both the the flum and the zoning change and I just here to help refresh everybody's memories because it's been a little while thanks thank you Deb Marne we have nobody else wanting to speak total either opposed or that those were the only folks I had signed up all right so with that being said public comments closed Council against huh there's nobody against right pardon for and against I know well she said there's nobody else there's nobody to speak against it yeah okay so Council you want to have any discussion or do uh do I i' just like to add to a few comments um we've heard about how the zoning was changed on this property by mistake and kind of in a sneaky way and and I will tell you that that was true I sat on the council when that was done um this was in 2001 and this was when we were going through a change and it was unfair then and it's unfair now if you go back and look at the ordinance where that was done that was passed by a vote of 4 to one and I was the one that opposed it so I feel some Poetic Justice to sit here tonight and uh and some pride to be able to fix that so I want to move forward and approve this and I would make a motion to approve both of these items okay do I hear a second I'll second it okay we got Marne we have a motion in a second is this can we vote on both of them at one time John or we need to go need to vote on the next uh uh I would do it separate just since okay so we'll do e and then we'll go to F okay all right so Mary call the rooll please okay council member Mark Greg yes vice mayor Sharon Mahoney yes council member Henry Rosenthal every time something like this comes up I say to myself why and who am I representing and for what reason I had some background in this particular property which has multi multi-usages I am not governed by the number of people who raised their hands it's nice to see that so many people have taken the time to appear and voice their opinion by raising your hand however I just want to make that comment I will vote in favor thank you thank you Henry and mayor buddy Pender yes that motion passes four to zero okay and for the zoning amend or zoning map Amendment zoning map can we go ahead John all right do I hear a motion for the zoning map I move to approve okay do I hear a second I'll second okay Marne uh call the role please vice mayor Sharon Mahoney yes council member Mark Greg yes council member Henry Rosenthal once again I say to myself why well it's a a statement that I kind of adopted when I were was elected and that is follow the money follow the money I understand and the church needs the funding to do something else in relation to the church in this community it is not an individual undertaking it's a community undertaking which allows me to exempt myself with following the money as if it were a personal Endeavor so because of that uh I will vote in in favor of it thank you and mayor buddy Pender yes that motion passes four to zero all right so we are back up to going back into St [Applause] prior we're going back up to the regular order so we're back onto tab B okay tab uh B okay which is Village attorney Village manager communication yeah thank everybody for coming tonight [Music] yeah that cleared the room yep well okay yeah I I mean I just I figured I need I was I need yeah I I wondered I didn't say anything I just you know you yeah yeah what's that he did he sign up oh yeah yeah yeah Mr Mayor where we're on a break as we dismiss may I just tell you one thing that I just did that that um putting another hat on from baseball coach and Pastor I talked to Daniel when he finished and I offered I said you know I have a long history of bi education in this community know Keys environment as well as anybody around and I said so if I can do anything to help in the educational process because I think there's a gap between um educating the public and uh what we need to address environmentally and so I just put I said just give me a call and we'll we'll figure out what we can do to be help there so thank you Tony for Coach okay so John um we are on a I mean tab B right tab B this is going to be uh Jennifer presenting okay Jennifer you you are on a on a on Tab B perfect thank you um so as a council may remember at their meeting on March 14th The Village Council asked staff to consider uh the issue of what it meant to front on US1 um in regards to the Village code section 30- 684 B2 which states that a permitted use is multifam attached or detached single family deed restricted affordable housing of up to four dwelling units on Lots fronting on US1 um and then to look at any potential code changes that might be necessary to clarify this issue um I've uh put a bunch of background in your packet in regards to the other existing um issue that will come later as to how we got to this question I'm not going to go through all that unless you have specific questions um but I will let you know that we did do um staff did research a number of lots in which the situation does apply we've identified 21 Lots um you see those in your packet and on the screen in front of you tonight um we've identified those by parcel ID address and then some additional um comments about the the uh parcel itself um of those lots however six of them contain structures that are too large for affordable housing our affordable housing is limited to 1500 square ft so um that would be um almost impossible for somebody to well not impossible but it would be kind of foolish to tear down a large house and rebuild it um and then we have three that are non-conforming with two sfrs and then one with a office on it so that leaves 12 Lots which would be classified um if we were to continue to follow the previous interpretation of the Village Council 12 lots that would be classified as fronting on US1 um if we continue to rely on that interpretation um also um the so oops so we have um also done some maps to show those lots um and that we've identified um so these are um the ones on Plantation key oops I went the wrong way sorry these are the ones on winley key and then these are the ones in upper metacumbe and then there were none that we identified on Lower metac comi obviously old world doesn't go to lower metacom so we did not identify any there um and then I think that's it for my my slides um but then uh John quick had also provided some language in your packet for potential code changes um after the discussion we can talk about that um and what those code changes would look like so I don't know if the council has specific questions or would like additional information or want John to discuss the code changes so Jennifer this one right here you have I see where Plantation Lake of stakes is I see can you put that back up I see East Ridge Road and I see Coral so are you stating that I see where my house is right here my house used to be Suburban commercial as well till the village came into existence they changed it them so now we're talking about this goes all the way down in front to treasure Village School correct am I looking at it right on Plantation key I need to get it back up give me one second because I I'm not I don't have a hard copy in front of me sorry all right perfect so this is plantation key and which ones are you referring to I'm sorry correct and you see the conservation lot from there's a green conservation lot yes and then you have R1 and then that's Plantation Lake estate going in there then you see R1 the two houses yes those are the two then there's that's East Ridge then my house and then Mr Greg's property you're saying that whole property and then you you jump on Coral and then the property out in front of Justin Johnson's that backs up to the school yes okay all right yeah I I have a little problem with this anyways with all of this because there's only one other property in this Village at the time and it's the one that Mark that joshan had the other night so I'm just that's that's me okay um so anyways that's my opinion Ian what what's really interesting is that uh my own personal property was Suburban commercial till the village came in and changed it in in 2001 I have the plat that it was showed it was Suburban commercial uh and now we're going to go change we're going to let this be changed to where people can put affordables all in front of residential I I I don't uh I don't agree with it all right anybody else oh so Jennifer um the question I have for you is um is uh what I'm seeing here is that you are doing an analysis and um and I I'm not seeing a request for um a clarification but I would like to make a clarification or is this a request for a clarification so that it would be very clear in the code no question you know how we want to interpret this I think I think it's a request to either the council to continue to follow the prior interpretation of the previous Council or to make a change to the code to clarify so can I just what what's I don't uh you know what's a little frustrating here is that um that the way our code is written as presented in this it actually doesn't say anything about um The Old Road um fronting us one and so I'm I'm a little frustrated with his entire conversation frankly because um our code doesn't say that but if what we're you're asking us to I mean I I I would like to be clear I'm in agreement with you I do not believe the old road is frun US1 or is us one for code purposes if what you're saying is we want language so that we don't have to com Converse about this again okay let's do that but and and I don't I'm I'm not I don't know what that code looks like but um yeah I have a problem with saying that the old road should be treated like it's it's it's um the highway so there was language in your packet I'm I'll let John speak to that there's um at the very last page there's uh uh uh two potential changes one I we didn't know which which way that the council would would like to go so I just prepared something pretty quickly um and uh the first would be if the council wanted to include to make clear that it is um or change the code to to to uh make clear that there is a uh uh it considers uh the Old Highway to uh to allow for um uh deed restricted affordable housing if you look on the last page there's a a a line that's added um under subsection B that would include specifically um the Old Highway where there's no buildable lot between us one and the Old Highway um so we didn't know which way Direction the council wanted to go so I presented you know put that together the other is a definition CU we don't have a definition of fronting I mean I think in the planning world I think we we do have an understanding of what fronting means um but there seem to be a question raised at least by by the public that we don't have a definition of what fronting means so I I added that and it says fronting it should say means the front of a parcel which is adjoining a specified location um I think if depending on which way the council wanted to go um that would make that uh that change I have a question um correct me if I'm wrong um this change will not affect when we get the new ones they'll have different stipulations for affordable is that correct this this doesn't this just applies to the two pie to two the two that are left right yeah well this only applies to um this would apply to any affordable units that are are in a R1 or r1m zoning District so and to answer your question it potentially could if somebody wanted to build a duplex or fourplex in an R1 District that was fronting on US1 and wanted to apply for the 300 it potentially could affect those this is related to the zoning District not where the allocations are coming from I have this problem with this fronting I just do and the old road is the old road um and then again now you're putting affordables in front of residential neighborhoods which I don't I don't know I I do have an issue with it like the other council members have so and my question when when did this get done I know that when when Mark had the the property by Hog Heaven I knew that was done but as far as I know that's the only property in the village that this has ever been done on so if you if actually wasn't done there were no affordable there were no AFF allocations given to that property just to be clear it was applied for but they never replaced so theoretical conversation I'm not I'm not were were affordables applied on that one or was that one that determinated sorry go ahead you can well that could have been either affable market rate that determination was made as part of an application for an address change no that determination was made because the applicant at the time was going what said that they were considering putting affordables and so in order to do that they needed to frontone US1 the planner at the time did not agree and then the applicant appealed that to council and the council overturned the planner and said that there was no legal justification for the planner's decision and agreed with the applicant and so that we have a resolution with that interpretation That Was Then followed up by a another former planning director who wrote A pre-application summary letter um identifying that as a reason to allow affordable units on a similar situated property um actually on this map so that's how that interpretation has carried forward yeah but Tuesday night you said that the affordable thing was never ever mentioned to those these two houses that's not what I said that's not what I said that the affordables were they were never allocated as affordables oh I didn't say that was never mentioned oh see I I misunderstood a little Clarity there so I purchased those lots on Wiley key in the early part of 2017 and I did a calculation that if I was able to if those were fronting on US1 I could afford to put a 4unit building on each of those lots and so I asked to do that the planning director said it's not clear I can't go with that so you'll have to appeal it and I did and I made the argument to the council sitting at that time that the the property is not on US1 and I'm saying that to all of you right now the front of my line does not touch us one but what does fronting mean and that was an open question and I and I said that if you if you look in the documents I think my pellet brief is in there and I think near the end I said it was an open one and the conditions for this were um favorable to have a ruling like that the answer is the real answer is it's whatever you want it to be but the factors that they considered is that there was no barrier of any kind between my front property line and the edge of US1 there's no intervening parcel there's nothing but asphalt and grass um there is another definition in the code of another term that had some relevance and that's the definition of adjacent land what is adjacent and it says that an intervening Road does not destroy the adjacency of the parcels so if you looked at it from that perspective my front property line is adjacent to US1 and so they bought it if you want to say it that way but they but it was in the context of affordable housing now they approved that the resolution was passed it's in your materials what happened after that and and it took a long time to get there I think that was in 2019 what happened in the in the interim is that prices escalated construction cost escalated and when I got when I got the plans to do the buildings that I was going to do and I calculated the cost I was upside down I would have I could never make money doing that I I I wouldn't live long enough to recover and break even if I did that and so I decided I was frustrated I decided to settle the properties and I listed them with Joselyn they sat on the market for several months no one offered them anything and I sold them to her that's the fact pattern behind that but the but the the the physical conditions of the fact that there's two roads that are parallel side by side and my property is on the far side of the second road that was used to interpret fronting now there's one lot that's a little weird that you may want to consider not mine I have no interest in it but it's the one next to the school now that one's weird because where the road begins to split there's a tiny triangle of land that's actually in between US1 and the old highway so that parcel of land for tax on the tax map on the property appraisers thing actually has two pieces of land one parcel number two pieces of land and you can see where that line jogs out there so that that's kind of I'm say I'm talking about that because it kind of illustrates an intermediary stage so this is strictly interpretive I I have a bias I I want things my way you know I'm like anybody else but the real question here is do you want affordable housing and where do you want it and if you don't want it here then where do you want it to go that's it it's that simple well for me and again so I won't say anything after this I have that problem with just above the surface of what's right and what's wrong and to me to interpret fronting and the old road nothing between it to me that's right on that surface that I'm very uncomfortable with to be honest so I I'm I'm a noo so right be uncomfortable it's no problem I mean it's just but if you look at these other Lots if you mean if you see the list there of the 21 Lots 14 of them are Oceanfront because of the economics of an Oceanfront lot no one's smart person is going to knock down a house and put for affordable units there um there's only one of these that's really vacant the others are either built on or have permits and that's the one with a hammock on it and it's got too much hammock to clear that you can't clear enough to put a a decent sized building there other than a single family you know what's funny mark my house fronts us one too it does I I I front us one I'm sitting here looking at it but you know what mine didn't get included well let me show you another irregularity you know the two identical houses across the street from you yeah they have a us one address right that's the weird yours doesn't and you're exactly the same I know so this is it just illustrates that you can look at it two different ways somebody El else did besides us besides me and so it's it's open to you if you don't want to do it you don't have to do it I'm not I'm not trying to tell you you're right or you're wrong you're you're not it's it's a matter of choice and it's open it's it's interpretive and if you go that way you know you're overriding what one Council has decided and what two um planning directors have already decided that's it I just want to clarify one thing for the mayor the reason you're property was not included Mr Mayor is because the front of your house is on Coral not yes or EAS idge I'm sorry um and that's the side of your house that is on Old Road and so you could not front on the old road okay okay it wasn't an intentional slate all right it was supposed to be it had it they had it right but they switched it when they did the comp plan okay can I make one more comment please okay hold up can I just make one more comment sure sure so John you've provided oh sorry some you provided some language here that with underlining and and that is really only um that's only allowing us to move forward with the identification that the old road fronts the fronts uh the US one without that language we're back to where we were which means that we would we continue would we would continue to have this open-ended question so what I don't see here is a language that would exclude that would clarify without a question um what we're trying to say here you've only provided one sided no well the actually no the as I mentioned when we when we prepared the the definition section if you adopted only the definition section that would absolutely make it clear you're talking about it fronting on where the front of a parcel adjoins a specified location then what you look at is under 30- 684 the location that is specified as us one so I don't see 30- 684 here have you provided that for us should be right on on the top of that um let's see so so could you repeat what you just said please so it is 36 it's right on top so could you say that again so if you do not if you do not use the underlined addition that's at so the top portion of of what I what I prepared that's 30- 684 if you do not if you were to not adopt that the only um time affordable housing would be permitted under B2 would be if it's fronting US1 so the definition of fronting um you know Recon uh clarifying or reconfirming the definition of fronting would only apply to Lots fronting US1 so are you asking us to make a motion to approve something tonight no we're asking for guidance because this would have to come back if you want if you do want to make a change it would have to come back in the form of an ordinance so um we're just just asking for guidance cuz we weren't with staff we weren't sure which way Council uh wanted to go on this you could do do nothing um or you know do do one of the two options or anything other than that as well I guess I I think I I have a way of looking at this and I want to ask a question and and I'm sensitive to the vice mayor's concern about how this is interpreted so interpretation of that word is certainly an issue here the real question is do you want to have affordable housing on the Old Highway and if you do then the suggested Amendment to the code that you read would be one solution that would do that and it would clarify the fronting issue if you don't then leave it as it is and we move on it's that simple so the question is are you are you I've already spoken how I feel so you're you're uncomfortable about the if you don't want them on the old road that's that's what I just said but you're you're trying to talk me into something I'm not trying to talk you into anything let see what the rest of the people you're capable of being talked into so Mr Hernandez doesn't say we got on the same subject for hours again so wored it's okay I mean you know I appreciate Mr hernandz impatient but is there important issues I'm totally fine talking about them until we're done I'm not worried about that I'm what I'm what I'm worried about is how are we going to provide affordable even though it involves my personal self-interest but I'm not the only one and there's a high demand for this and we have a state mandate and it's in our code and comp plan to make it available if you want to do that the the proposed change to the code allows it and if you don't just say so and we move on you know um Mark also I mean I I appreciate that question a lot um how do we want to handle affordable housing we have an opportunity here in the next one of the next two tabs to talk more about that I have so much to say about it heads up um but I too agree with Sharon and and you know what I I because because 's lots of room for interpretation I would love to even see this more because I don't know where else is fronting used in our code I have no idea because I'm not an expert on it I would love for a reference to be made in in the section 30- 684 to refer to fronting as defined in section 30-32 so that there's no question because guarantee some interpretation will come back to us 3032 is the general definition section for the ldrs so is I mean there's a number of with this is where else does fronting where does I'm don't not sure if we have all the information here is there fronting where else do we see that in our code it's I mean I haven't done a search of fronting through the entire code I could do a quick search um but if it's in 30-h if it's in the ldrs and 30-32 would apply um I can get that answered for you either now or if this is brought back let me ask you could you because I think we're all in agreement here and we can in the interest of time move on though Henry been quite silent can you um within 30- 684 reflect Our intention here without getting dragging into how our code is written can you can you clarify can you make our intentions as yes if if there's an issue where fronting appears in a number of other places and you want this definition to only apply in 30- 684 I can create a definition section specifically for 30- 684 otherwise um I mean yeah I I think what we're trying to do is make the uh if there's Council consensus make the change so that uh fronting is no longer defined as being on the old road but on US1 and in the section that has been the subject of the controversy of interpretation reference the definition so that someone reading that specific section even if they should know it's in the definitions will it will be explicit and refer them there to avoid even the the possibility of confusion and interpretation is is that correct I mean my question is when you go when we go and do this what about all the residents that live behind there what's what's that going to do to the value of the homes that okay we got it totally agree all right Henry you have anything you want to say I don't think I have to no okay all right so what are we Let's uh we're going to leave it the way it is we already we've said we're um it's what it's what miss the manager just said okay do we need clarification say it again all right okay hey Rob say say again so we can make sure we got this I want to make sure it's a little fuzzy here what what action are you taking after this conversation staff are going to prepare an ordinance with a change to the code to incorporate a definition for fronting and in the section that is the subject of of this question of How It's interpreted a reference to that definition can be incorporated as well so a person reading it knows to read the definition make sure that they have the correct interpretation so that it doesn't waffle or fade over time it'll be explicitly referenced but what did you just say about the old road a minute ago you said that it wasn't going to be on the old road but it' have to front on the highway correct Council has provided a definition of fronting that requires it have let's say a shared lot line between the property and us one it has to be a joining is that your word council that you're going to be using it has to be ajoining US1 meaning that these properties shown on the graphic for instance would not qualify as fronting on US1 because the front lot line of each of them would have to be the shared uh boundary between us one right of way and that lot line so with with the old or in between they would not qualify so what he's saying is the old road is the old road and us one is US1 correct in the ter in terms of Henry said that's what I said in terms of the go ahead Henry my question is what you just said exactly and why don't we call the question vote on it and and it's done no vote vot okay it's not advertised whatever it is but let's just move forward and it behind us I don't think just in terms of the definition section section 30-32 specifically applies there are there are dozens of definitions in that section and it says words is used in this chapter meaning Chapter 30 shall have the meaning described below unless otherwise defined in another article division section or paragraph of this chapter so if it's in 30-32 and that word fronting is used which it's used also used as it relates to out storage in a couple of zoning districts that definition will apply throughout section 30 or uh throughout I'm sorry Chapter 30 if I would caution against referring back to 30-32 for any for a definition because then that begs the question why have you not done that for every other definition in Chapter 30 and as I mentioned there are dozens of definitions in here from A-frame all the way down to wait so can I just can I just request that you manage that on an administrative level so that you you reflect the intention of the council because this could be lengthy if we need to go through all yeah I don't think so I just wanted to yeah that'd be awesome okay okay are we good move we're going to move on to the next okay so we're going to go on move on to B uh the rogo update y That's a tab three that was moved from uh from Tuesday oh what what's uh van what are you asking for I'm asking to I'm asking to speak to to fronting uh you're speaking of the the two roads one road okay the old road is belongs to the Village which was given to us by the county when we incorporated it has nothing to do with the Federal Highway which is US1 okay Federal Highway way US1 is what the the charter says fronting means for affordable housing there should be no problem with the interpretation there should be no discussion there shouldn't have been a discussion in 2019 it's very obvious that we want to have a fair process and I adore you I adore you van but but we want to have a fair and Equitable process for everyone and and right now it's not how our me save it for for general public comment do that let's do I understand what you're saying and oranges brother remind come back as an ordinance and there will be public comment on two readings for yeah yeah okay all right oh my God I need all right Henry go ahead me policy decisions are made by use of amendments to the comp plan I mean I have a problem with talking about the site right now just make the amendment to the comp plan and we're still basing a lot of decisions on the comp plan which is Antiquated to begin with okay that has to be brought up and should have been done months ago and we just sat on it and sat on it and hopefully that's going to be happening in the near future so I think we're pushing the wrong buttons here as far as decision made and intended to be site Pacific let's get down to make the amendment to the comp plan and the definition of whatever you want to make a definition of and get it done that's my opinion okay all right Henry I think we're uh think we're good are we okay Council you guys were you ready to move on to uh B for Jennifer to give us the uh report on the the uh bass and rogo this is what we moved from the other night tab three from the other three yeah okay sorry that's you're good yeah so thank you Council um just as a bit of background um in the fall of 2003 the Department of Commerce issued um their Florida Keys hurricane evacuation modeling report uh this report provided several scenarios uh for clearance times in the event of a hurricane that charts um in your packet but also on the the screens in front of you this evening after the report was issued all the jurisdictions in Monroe County decided to let the county lead the effort on future considerations of additional rogo bass allocations um in early 2024 the Slate legislature agreed to include Key West in the evacuation mly and to include mobile homes in phase one so if you look at the chart in front of you um reading abnormally from right to left um it'll be the third column over where it says um mobile homes in Phase One um that's the column that we would be going by for Hurricane evacuations on March 20th 2024 Monroe County Board of County Commissioners held a rogo workshop in kargo it was attended by myself um our new Village manager Robert Cole was in tendance and Jamie Terry for my staff was also there uh Jamie is the one that handles all of the bass um in the office a lot of good information was done at that Workshop there was a presentation by one of the county attorneys on takings uh there's a presentation by Emily Scher the director of planning um on their rogo situation and then another presentation by uh Christine Hurley from uh Monro County Land Authority on some of the pro uh programs that they Ed to uh acquire um lots and then finally a presentation by Kimberly Matthews um on the process moving forward um I did include those uh PowerPoint presentations in packet if you were unable to attend I know that Councilman Greg was in attendance at that I don't believe I saw anyone else but if I didn't and I missed you I'm sorry um the county is conducting their public process with the intent of presenting a report and findings at the board of County Commissioners for a decision at their December meeting and they'll be looking to each municipality to provide guidance on what we be looking for in regard to our uh allocations and either requesting future allocations um or not um in early just as a reminder in early 2024 The Village adopted a moratorium on market rate building with and without land dedication this became effective on February 6 2024 and is active for a six-month period and it can also be extended for additional 6 months uh that being said um so staff has proposed a public process um to for the village to gather data and feedback regarding potential future allocation potential for future allocations uh this is a proposed timeline um the end goal is to provide the Village Council with enough information by its October meeting so that we can make a recommendation back to the board of County Commissioners um as a side note um just today actually we received um contact from Kimberly Matthews with the county um asking to start setting up a meeting in the end of this month to start the conversation so that we can align our process with their process so I think this is a good time for us to start talking about this as well um so we'll be working with them closely uh this public process will provide the information necessary to formulate the report and recommendation to council um and also just to know one basis for our moratorium was to determine a plan to manage the request for allocations and the vacant Lots we have remaining in the village this process will also accomplish that as well it is likely that we may need to request an extension based on the timeline but we can address that as get closer to a August um so at this time um we would just be asking the council to um look at this timeline um and agree that it's a it's a doable timeline and that we can begin the process as soon as possible so we can collect all the data that we think you'll need and provide you with a strong recommendation the other thing I just wanted to note is that the key staff from the village that would be involved in this is um all of the planning staff is listed there because I'll be you know obviously using utilizing their skill sets uh Robert Cole Village manager uh our review engineer our Public Works director environmental service manager Fire Chief and our chief building official and then anybody else that we think but those are the key staff that you know we thought of at this time so that's you know where I'm at at this point uh if anybody has any specific questions about either the timeline or additional things I'm happy to answer those questions okay Rob did you have something you want to say yes mayor thank you uh first off I'd like to thank Monroe County for their partnership on this they've really helped us get started with an excellent presentation a lot of background uh in addition to that we'll be looking to continue that collaboration with the county as this planning moves forward uh we want to be able to dovetail and and use some of what they're creating in our process so some of the details are are not present yet but to the extent that we're both interested in getting the same questions answered and we're laying out processes we're going to walk hand inand with the county and capitalize on some of the work that they're able to do in terms of how they're doing their Outreach the kinds of questions they're asking to get the right feedback and therefore you know Not Duplicate that effort but build on it and so uh we'll be updating the council as that as that schedule gets fleshed out in Greater detail but no uh we're trying to uh minimize our work but do the right amount and at the same time capitalize on the County's work thank you okay thank you Robert Council we have any questions for for Jennifer Yes um this is actually a a joint question or a question for two of you Jennifer and and um uh John um in in your opening remarks there Jennifer you mentioned that we had passed a moratorium that began in February and it's good for six months so and when I count on my fingers I get to August I believe the final date based on you know time I counted was August 8th okay so uh in light of the workload a view in light of the time frames involved in passing ordinances and things do you think we can get it all done before the moratorium expires and if not do you think we should discuss the extension of the moratorium now um I I don't believe I mean based on the timeline I've set out I don't believe we're going to have all the information that we need or if if we do finalize a report and then be able to act on any of that within that months so that's why I kind of mentioned that up front um whether or not now is the time to act on that I'll I'll leave that to Legal I mean we couldn't act on it but we can certainly discuss it if you all like but as as Jennifer alluded to we we envisioned if if necessary and it will likely be necessary um that we would be uh bringing back for your consideration um a uh an extension of the moratorium probably in June um to see if that was something that uh that you all were were interested in and obviously it'll depend on the timing of the analysis um by planning as well well my um interest would be that we are able to allow this uh planning staff sufficient time to do their job without allowing for a gap in time to open up that would you know make things more difficult and disruptive so I I my interest would be to have the moratorium discussion the extension of that discussed as soon as possible so that we have plenty of time to get it on the agenda maybe even a little buffer at the end because things happen we're coming into hurricane season you know there's no harm in discussing it earlier from my perspective so I don't know if the council has disc it in May is that our next meeting I'd be happy to do it tonight if it were on the agenda I think yeah it's not on the agenda no so fair enough we could yeah May we'll do it may we're clear on May yep okay so can we move on to C then uh that's from Tab four moov from the other night excuse me Mr Mayor I just want to make sure that we have consensus to move forward with this timeline are we what say just want to make sure we have consensus from the council to move forward with the timeline as yeah do we have a consensus are we okay with that yes okay thank you okay okay uh Jennifer you're up again with Tab four here um going to let Mr Quick speak to this one based on the conversation we just had this this the B pass I mean I it seems like based upon the PRI the discussion that we just had on the um uh no this is for reservations oh I'm sorry I thought I'm sorry you're right thought we were talking about on the guideline I'm sorry I'm sorry I was I was jumping ahead we were we m one ahead so we're moving back to the right spot sorry sorry I'm sorry okay so this is the I have my stuff is all messed up in my book that's why this is why you don't do your own book okay on your after Action Report PL 23-9 from November 9th um the planning department was asked to uh look at how to uh we could possibly do some reservation for affordable housing allocations based on a request from of a specific project um we've also received several inquiries from other uh upcoming developments um for that as well um The Village um has reserved them in the past for their property that the village owns by other um and then we'll have other people build on them but I don't couldn't find where the village had done it for private entities so um I looked at the policy the language in the mro county code on their reservation policy and you know stole from that and then tweaked it a little um so this is how I would suggest that you know the uh Council look at potential reservation policy um it basically outlines that you know that you may Reserve by reservation any available affordable allocation um for affordable or Workforce housing um pursuant to certain agreements or agencies um it gives um seven different types of awards that we could give the process would be a request of a reservation of units uh would be submitted in writing to the planning department um indicating the project identifiers including address parcel ID project name if any status of the project in the perming system and the number of allocations requested for reservation um the department would review that uh request and then provide a recommendation for the council with a a resolution at an upcoming meeting so that was uh my proposal based on the direction and happy to answer any questions Council any questions for Jennifer um I I'll go last but I have one question on one of the items on the list Elizabeth okay I'll go um I I feel a sense of uh needing to write what I feel is a wrong and that has to do with one of the four applicants the first one it's the Coral Bay Marina uh project that's listed there of the four that are listed this is the only one that has made it to the Finish Line they they are ready to go into bass they're in bass they're as I understand it from speaking to the um owner of the property and his representative this is what's known as shovel ready in other words once he gets the green light from us he's ready to go and start his project um You probably understand that a project of this size requires considerable planning and timing and coordination with material suppliers contractors ordering things um it's a symphony of work and materials that's that takes a lot of time to plan and it's a lot of money to invest upfront uh without having the certainty of knowing that you can do your project I would like us tonight to make an effort to provide that certainty to that applicant because he has done everything that the law has required to the te he has paid all of his fees he's filed every application that he is required to do and to say backwards he has done absolutely nothing wrong and in my view he's fully entitled to start right now and I do appreciate and Elizabeth has reminded us of that and I thank her that we need to stick to policies and procedures and follow the rules but right now this one is kind of loose and and fuzzy and gray and we've done this before for others we have done it for a private party that was the original one on Woods Avenue who I don't know if you want to say defaulted but was unable to perform and it was taken on for someone else um this is not anything that is um out of sorts um this person is entitled to eight uh units we have them he's complied with the law and I would like someone to tell me why he shouldn't have them tonight what what legal or practical reason is it that he does not deserve to get what he asked for I can I can tell you procedurally why we cannot give them to him tonight but well if that's helpful if it's the wrong answer I don't want to hear it I want to do it in no I'm teasing um you can tell us procedurally but I think I wonder if this body has the authority to take action that is not necessarily contrary to that procedure but certainly uh to achieve the goal and the purpose which is to provide affordable housing which is mandated by the law it's in the principles for guiding development the ultimate state law that drives us forward and what we have to do and if we don't do something pretty quick it's we're going to get sued because we have to do this our our plan shows that we have a deficit of over a thousand units and this guy's ready to go and he's done everything we've asked him to and we need this very badly it seems to me that there's more than one way to skin the cat here so you can tell me what the procedure is and then I want to talk about how I'll use Elizabeth's quote from the other night how do we get to yes I love that I'm going to use use it again how do we get to you yeah and Jennifer I believe the building is already torn down he's grandfathered in I mean keys keys Mar Keys Marina has been there for ever since I was a kid growing up and and it was in bad shape he he's worried about concrete that was sping falling and killing somebody or hurting somebody so uh it's a three-story building and if he can't put the affordables on top he's got to redo it and start from scratch and conditional use it is a nightmare let's stop the nightmare tonight please well let me say something real quick I remember and uh it was when Elizabeth and I first got on we've had this conversation for this gentleman and I thought we said yes to him I and I know I I do I because I remember Mark used the term reservations and I'm thinking like like a dinner reservation because I didn't understand and I thought that night we agreed that this gentleman would get the eight so I was sort of confused when I spoke with his attorney and said so I think we need to sort of fix that because I think several people were under the impression that he got them so well it's a set aside and and you know it's it provides certainty and it provides um the the the right to plan and to get the job done and there's no reason we can't do this I mean you're probably going to find some obscure code thing that says no but we we are Guided by policy and what the intent of the law is and the intent is to provide affordable housing and this guy's done everything we've asked him to do and more he's got the patience of Job and I don't know how much longer it's going to last so understanding everything that's been said and agree with everything that's been said so so no I'm not going to say I am we need to do Jennifer I I have a solution if good everybody just lets me talk Your solution so um I just first want to let you understand the policy behind the decision it wasn't just oh we're not going to give these eight units to anybody um yes we have 300 units but the council distribution schedule that was approved in 2024 did not authorize the distribution of those units because at that time we did not have an approved comp plan amendment that authorized the distribution we do have that now that was approved by Commerce in March 7th um and we were intending to bring a amended distribution schedule to you at your May meeting so what we have talked about in the office um and with legal and with Mr Cole as well is that we could bring the uh distribution schedule to you in May on your May meeting and at the same time or right after that you could also because part of your comp plan the compl plan amendment allows for the council to borrow forward to the next quarter he will be first on the list for quarter number two he's right now on the list for quarter one but we have nothing to give him so you could in may borrow forward from Quarter Two to give him eight allocations at your May meeting um and that was sort of the intention if your request tonight is to reserve them for him that would put him out an additional month because the reservation wouldn't happen until we we reserve it in May but he wouldn't get allocated in second quarter if we're borrowing forward at May we're allocating them a month earlier if that makes sense I interpreted what you said correctly if we if we force the issue tonight and we give him a reservation then it costs him a month on his permit I believe so that doesn't make any sense I mean John can weit speaking incorrectly but I believe that's the timing of it all can we let Mr Harris since he represents the uh this isn't even what we're Oh I thought it was this isn't what we're we're not yeah we're not on that we're not we're not talking about we're going off script here bigger conversation you're you're right you're right you're right that this is out of line but it's to fix a problem that deserves to be fixed I I totally agree this is out of line and I'm doing it and I I feel like I um I mean if we're I need more information a little bit more information because I'm not clear on but because I mean I need more information because it's not in here if we're talking about Buddy's issue which right we are y y but I mean so who's going to give that I mean are we are we trying to well like okay so so could you give me that time so he applied he's in the system Maybe Jennifer you could hit I actually why maybe procedurally we need to have a conversation about whether we're having this conversation to make a decision tonight about buddy are you asking that to me I don't know a procedural I mean this is a legal thing here right I we giving I mean and I'm all I'm good with having this conversation except that no one knows we're having it and like Buddy's not here and the lawyer I mean lawyer is here but that's I don't even know what the det it would be nice to participate fully with more information I'm sorry to say that I'm not really sorry to say that I mean I don't even exactly know how this whole thing went down with Buddy well I I think Ty is here representing him this evening but I I don't know either because this we moved this from the other night so so do so we're the thing that's on the agenda is is is having to do with this reservation system it is and his his name is on here his company name is the permit is that's gives me Comfort that the public knows what's going on here um I I just I I don't understand why one of us can't have a simple motion that we award eight reservations to him tonight we vote if there's three he gets it good to go and you know why because we don't have a reservation system there is no we don't have one which is which is I don't know that there's a requirement that we have one I mean there's not a comp plan like John there's the there is a a schedule that um that we have to follow that's that has been established by the council and that's what Jennifer was getting at that if we reserve them whether it's tonight or or even in May that schedule doesn't make them available until June um so when the three of us got together again speaking specifically about this project you know we came up with this uh what we thought was a good solution that would actually get him his units earlier which would be under your code it allows you to borrow forward that would all come back in May under a specific agenda item the agenda item tonight is to get direction on on how to to to create a a process a set process for for reservation of affordable housing allocations if that's what the council would like to do um but this specific item we think we can actually get him his units one month earlier than he would otherwise be entitled to under the um allocation schedule that that was established by the council when you say get him his units are you referring to a permit or a permit allocation I'm talking about merely a reservation it it's functionally a promise of the council that he's going to get what he asks for when he comes in to get in line for those that's all I'm looking for so let's be clear he's in the bass system he's the only one on the list other than you for eight units and there's nobody else behind him or close to him so he's going to get eight units unless the council decides for some random reason to not give him eight of the 300 units that we have so you're saying there's no need for I I'm not I'm not sure what I'm missing okay so Jennifer why why we do from what I just heard John say then is that you guys bring this back in May and we vote on it then at that point correct what we're saying is if you want to talk about this and give us some guidance on this that's fine but what we're doing anyway in May is bringing you an amended distribution schedule for the rest of the calendar year for the rest of the quarters 2 through four okay the code and I mean the comp plan allows us to borrow forward from future quarters since he is ready to go already in quarter 1 you could we can bring you a resolution for the end of quarter 1 that borrows forward from quarter two eight of those allocations and you can award W him those in May okay is there anything other than a negative vote of the council that would prevent that from happening not at this time because quarter one is already closed and nobody else will so the the quarter's closed the game is done it it's set that's the playing field and the only way you're telling me and I hope he's listening and watching this on TV the only way he can not get his um reservation is if we don't vote for that and I think think there's at least reservation it's an allocation well so that that see that's what I'm I'm talking about something different the the reservation is is telling him tonight he's going to get them and and the allocation is going to be when he gets them I would say he also could there could be a scenario if he withdraws his application where he would not get the application or the allocation well that's self-inflicted I'm not she's saying we're going to vote on this in May and he's the one on the list right so I get where you're going and I I think we're all in agreement here yeah yeah I I want him to go to bed tonight knowing he has a deal and and I don't I'm not sure he does well I I'm I feel like from what I just heard Jennifer say they're going to bring it in May and and we're going to vote on it is that where you're hearing Henry okay Elizabeth is that what you're hearing Sharon are we all favor yeah we if it were to come back to us then yes I think we we're all saying the same thing and it is going to come back to us that's what we just heard her say so when it comes back we're all going to vote yeah so buddy can go to sleep we're not changing our minds but yeah okay can I I'd like to add some additional things if we all are could you want do you want to say that again so that I can add a few items here to this conversation they have nothing to do with buddy I'm just saying that oh no I don't want to say anything else I'm just I'm just so intensely frustrated that we can't get affordable housing off the ground to save our lives and we got a guy ready to rock and roll and and he's going to go away if don't do this we're going to lose this and we're this is Workforce um and and I want to speak to to your intense frustration because um I feel it as well and in in reviewing this um reservation system and again this has nothing to do with Buddy at all but but um we we are in in this position I spoke with this spoke about this with Jennifer today to have some real agency over what we do with these 300 allocations um as you may know the county is holding as if I'm not mistaken is holding back um all or or at least part of their um early out allocations for beneficial use because um and and I I wonder if we should consider that so what that means is that if um if we don't get more alloc market rate allocations from the state then we have a pool of affordable housing um early out allocations to offer people who um who are sitting there with vacant lots and we've discussed this but we've never never gotten it off the ground and this might be an interesting time to talk about that as you see in our packet um you know we don't even we haven't even started to give these out and 125 are already are already sort of people have have designs on them so they're going to go very quickly you know so that's Point number one should we consider holding some for um beneficial use second issue that concerns me greatly is that we don't have any any um stipulation on these allocations about um who gets to use these um these alloc these this affordable housing so as as I printed out this sheet that talks about the various designations we have for affordable um affordable housing and the the income levels so what's happening now is that um you and and is that you can build affordable housing and the the low the very low um person there's no carve out for um that we're not saying we want a certain percentage of people to be in the very low income category some in the low and some in the medium low so let's just if you could bear with me here you know talk about what these income levels mean because we talk about affordable housing but a medium low or a moderate low income for a family of four is $167,000 I mean that's you know that's a nice a nice income right um uh a very low income is is a family of four that makes $64,000 I think we're um this this this conversation is begging us to get some clarity on what kind of affordable housing we want to purchase or excuse me what kind of affordable housing we want to promote and if we don't I mean and it's okay if we decide we don't want the guy who makes the least amount of money to live in our town that's fine but but we need to have that conversation otherwise what I see Happening Here with um the you you'll notice in this addition that that's been provided we have 43 units being requested by Fisher in um 50 by Islander Creekside and 24 by sunset in now if you look at for example I mean these are already like Fisher in it's already a building so what'll happen there and maybe you can help me no no no no that it's the vacant lot next to that he's creating a building so then am I not M isek Creekside is already in existence so Creekside the idea the intent with Creekside is that they're transferring those Hotel units down to The Islander um and expanding The Islander and then they're going to convert those to Workforce affordable housing Workforce okay and so so just to be clear then um they're going to put 50 affordable housing units on Creekside they're going to convert convert the hotel and then those Transit units are going to go go to The Islander it's owned by the same somehow we this is all being done without like okay so they're going to go to The Islander the transient units um it's not all being it's all going to come before you they're putting all their pack they've got their pieces in line to come before you I'm trying to get them to do it all at once so they don't come to you in like different steps so this kind of shell game which is fine cuz it's a little bit of a moving moving Parts here I mean let's let's just all realize that you know this this affordable housing is um is well it sounds good on paper we're not doing anything to well I shouldn't say it that way I should say we should be aware that an affordable um location it says here rent can't ex can't um exceed $2,925 but you can if you're you're an affordable um rental situation um like for examp let me just back up here so yeah 229 $2,900 is your rent then you add on electric and water so you're paying you know a hefty amount of money are we good with that and if we aren't good with it let's have maybe we should have that conversation right now if we want to re carve out the various income levels well I think that the the formulas that are in here are dictated by state or federal law maybe John or Jennifer could because I've seen this in the statutes but what we haven't done is say we want a certain percentage for low very low or moderate I I'm not sure if we can do that I mean it's interesting to talk about it it is fascinating it's it is quite fascinating it's just like the sun Community those affordable units we have somebody works right here at the park paying 1,500 somebody else works at a marina they're paying probably making less money but it it's stipulated by The Village sun doesn't have anything to do with it but the same unit that she's paying 1500 somebody else is paying 800 and it's our it's our you know rules but like Mark just said I'm not sure and you know that's why we need more information it's why we have staff who could provide this and who who you know who should provide it's a conversation we should be having right I I'm interested to talk about it some more there's a lot of these are some big projects on here and you know that's going to be a big change somewhere so certainly it's a good idea I I I'm I'm not going to flex on the eight for Coral Bay I want that to go no this is I just want to be clear this does not have to because I it does not have to do with Coral Bay that guy is going to okay all right let me ask Rob something Rob can we put this on the agenda in May to where we can discuss this instead of write this moment well that is it's an agenda item just to be clear this is why we're having right it was and we moved it yeah well but I it's on our agenda so this is an appropriate time to give direction for what we I mean it's why it's why we're here and and additionally let's not forget the beneficial use issue because we aren't holding I mean these are a limited number of affordable allocations and we're not holding any for our town why don't we direct the staff to find out what we can like Mark is saying can and cannot control if it's States well I think they probably know right now I don't know if they do or not hello well they can tell us where we can tweak this if we want to I'm I'm fine with that and and I would give us more to work with than just us deciding I want tode I want that I want to explore more what the first thing you spoke about which was the beneficial use thing and and I will tell you what I did attend that event that Jennifer me mentioned and I couldn't believe my ears when I heard the County Attorney telling us what that was for if I interpreted it right and and Jennifer was there and and Rob was there please straighten me out but their intention is to set aside some of these Workforce units or affordable units I'm not sure which maybe I'm confused but whatever it is if they get sued and they have to give out a permit they're going to literally use one of those to I don't know you can do it because the county is doing it and we should consider that well I I I'm I'm willing to consider that I think that's pretty pretty good strategy on the county attorney's part he's a very smart guy and they that's one of the best legal departments I've ever had to deal with as a lawyer they're very very good but I would like to you know like they say trust but verify I want our lawyers to to look at that too why can't we give direction to find find out if we can because I understand what you're saying we're already almost halfway gone with if we follow the before we give them all the way let's figure out what other options we have is that what you're saying yes and so so we should be aware um I know I've spent a lot I appreciate whatever you're laughing at I don't know I'm glad I'm bringing joy to this meeting um you know we've been i' I've had the pleasure of serving on our affordable housing Community Committee for many um well maybe it wasn't many it felt like many years and so we've had a lot of these conversations and they never get off the ground because no one is really either committed to affordable housing or it's just hard to make things happen but look at us right now having this conversation right we could say Jennifer bring back an early out policy for us because it makes sense and additionally let's talk about uh excuse me an early out a beneficial use policy additionally we should be thinking about projects that make come to our town in the future where we could be giving direction to say with these allocations that we hold back to say hey you know what we actually do want to purchase a piece of property and potentially use 70 allocations to build actual affordable housing where people can actually live unless we don't want that in which case let's just go like let's just move on to the next Tab and that's fine but but what an opportunity we have here with these 300 units and all of us having this very public conversation and additionally you might notice some interesting pieces that come from the Monroe County um which we could direct Jennifer to look at closely that come from um the the the county code when they come when they deal with affordable housing like like um minimum space requirements so you can't take a transient unit and um that that we're dealing with here with these with the four applications that are in and put them into an affordable house that is under 500 sare ft like why can't we we should be we should be looking at these details more when when when PRM sing built on P just north of seven mile bridge Isabella County he had to build 30 Workforce housing on that property right and and interestingly about that there are some real restrictions about like he can't build 300 squ foot units and call them affordable housing I mean there's some there's some quality of life issues that the county has has really um dug into which we could very easily copy and if we want to give that direction or again if we don't that's okay let's just move on to the next tab I think we've all sort of voiced it yet yes let's see what we can and can't do that's why I'm laughing because I know what you're saying I think we all agree that uh we should have the more information right now we don't know what we can control we don't know anything about legal size yeah that so let's give direction to find that out before and not make it take give out anymore until we know more information and I think it's smart to set some aside and I think it's smart to uh looking into what you're into but we need to First find out what our parameters are is that a good way to say it and it's not a secret we're just asking for it to presented there's some urgency around this so perhaps at the next meeting is that a possibility I mean I don't know they're not when when when we get uh focused here they're figuring it out let's not getting their way I'm just talking timeline yes um I I and the urgency would be that we have 300 units and 120 have been not given amount then well I that's well we hadn't given any well you know what I mean so I I would ask the legal staff department and planning department Jennifer you were there you heard it like I did if what they said about the benefit icial use ones is true where they are effectively converting a Workforce allocation into a claim satisfying market rate uh permit I I I want to see how that magic trick works yeah and and then if that is legal kosher cool groovy whatever you want to call it then we need to have a discussion how many of those do we want to set aside which unfortunately sacrifices an affordable opportunity but but that's Segways into a conversation so so that that that that beneficial use tool is um is is being used um as a stop gap for to to see what the state will allow and that's coming up we're going to know pretty soon like by the end of this year I think we're going to know how many market rate allocations we'll get so then we'll still have those units and wouldn't it be great if we kept those for Village directed projects anyway that would again well we may want to have some for Village employee housing yeah exactly so do you just uh I just want to follow up in Mr Greg's um comment about the beneficial use that they talked about at the county my recollection is is similar to that but that they were um putting theirs in a pool and converting existing regular affordables to early outs right and then using those for potential takings cases and then converting those not converting the early out affordables yeah there was some kind of an interesting thing yeah so because I don't think we'd be able to convert the early out converting an affordable as distinct from a Workforce 300 yeah correct okay well we'll we'll see if that's something that works for us or not okay all right so we ready to move on to the next tab Jennifer you I have a question about when we're going to see this come back and what level of urgency we want to Rob go ahead well we're trying to see what we can handle for either May or June and it depends on the scope of what we want to cover initially uh what I'm hearing is beneficial use is an important one it's something we want to jump on much sooner than later and then I'm hearing a lot of other dimensions of affordable housing that um may take a little bit longer to compile so my question to council is how much um how much do you want right off the bat if I can get something on the agenda for May would beneficial use in and of itself and a recommendation satisfy you with a commitment to come back on the balance or do we need to be more robust than that and if so which specific dimensions of it and that will help us determine is it May or June to have that entire conversation if that's the expectation so just clarifying expectations beneficial use I see easy for May uh okay what we stack on top of it then helps me determine May or June so think it's pretty easy to look at the county code and bring it forward and summarize I mean it's our we don't need to reinvent the wheel here we're piling a lot on the staff I I I'm but they super competent yeah but there's only a few of them all right so Rob just let's are we all in agreement that they can bring back what what in May what we're talking about what you just described then we go from there if there's something deeper then we can ask for it then at a minimum we'll have beneficial use and we may have a comparison of the county code and what uh elements may be attractive to us here and then we'll keep building on the conversation from there is that satisfactory I would be satisfied with that that's that's delivering a lot so um because again right now we have 125 proposed units um it and we got an entire month is there a way to stop the review process between now and then so that so because we they I mean people have the right to apply so um you if they want to apply for affordable housing B pass they have the right and I mean they have to comply with every all the requirements for it um but there's not a way short of a moratorium to uh oh interesting to stop it completely okay okay all right so Rob I guess the way we're going to leave it is is that you bring this back in May and we go from there all right let's uh that's and one additional thing since we all are sitting here hey you know what I mean we don't have these I'm not talking to you guys outside of this meeting and this is well let me ask you is this an important issue for you affordable housing because if it isn't I'll I'll drop it if it's important I have another question it's very important but we have other people other cabs that are sitting here waiting since 5:30 that we need to move on Elizabeth and let them bring this back and then we go from there it is a very important issue so we just got done talking about understanding hold restricting restricting affordable how the early out allocations does that mean we want to see a moratorium in May so that we can actually address that or do we not have that kind of urgency because what can very easily happen is that I don't think we to put a moratorium you can absolutely because that's what we do I I I could I could see a conversation on that but I would like it to occur after they bring back what they're going to bring back thank you yeah okay so let's move on to tab C please under resolutions uh Jennifer you are or John is that the right one we're on C yep it's tab C's a resolution it's a resolution of the Village Council of alam Village violence Florida approving residential building permit allocation system rankings and awarding affordable residential building permit allocations for quarter 4 of 2023 and providing for an effective date thank you Council as you may recall this item was before the council at its meeting on March 14th 2023 it was tabled at that time um for the discussion regarding fronting on US1 um this is the uh um the quarter four issuance of two affordable allocations for the property um shoot for the um partiel ID number 00411 89- 0000000000 uh the proposed construction requires two affordable allocations and I'll let John speak to the disposition I think what Jennifer's all alluding to is obviously this turns on the fronting issue on US1 the eligibility of this uh lot uh is uh dependent upon it uh under its zoning category is dependent upon it fronting uh US1 so so what are you saying with that John that it's it is eligible for affordable housing if it fronts US1 this this parcel if it does not front US1 then it would not be eligible under the zoning category um I don't want to through the brain damage of another conversation about this um I'm going to make a couple statements and then you can do as you see best and I'm confident you will um I would just make a statement that um I did my very best to comply with what the regulations required um I started this back in I don't know 20 uh 2019 I believe it was well before I was on the council um I had I have two different planning directors who have agreed with my interpretation of this and that was based upon an interpretation of the prior Council uh as as a part of a uh decision on an appeal so I'm I'm just repeating what you already know but in a different order so all I want to know is what did I do wrong I followed the rules I paid all the fees I followed every procedure that I could possibly find and because I sit on the council I did it as publicly and as openly as I possibly could so that no one could make an argument that I was trying to take advantage of my position here for a special favor or privilege or anything else and I guess the result is going to be well it's to the contrary so that's okay uh but you asked the question a little earlier and I didn't answer it do you really want to do something about affordable housing well I think you know what my answer is on that and this is the opportunity to do that um I think that this is interpretive and it reminded me I used to I I have an English degree and I studied Shakespeare and you'll remember uh the play Hamlet and Hamlet is discussing with two guys about uh he how how whether it's good or not to live in Denmark you know this was setting was in Denmark and they were going back and forth and there's a famous quote from that and it says and Hamlet said nothing is either good or bad only thinking makes it so and that applies here tonight if you think this is wrong and you don't like it it is so and I understand that but you have the option to do the other and I done everything that I know how to make this the other and the council before you agreed with the other as did two planning directors and that's the end of my remarks okay I guess I get to start uh I would like to ask you that since we just decided that fronting was going to be not on the old road how do you think if we approved you that would make the four of us look like it would make it would make us look like the Bubba system which I can't stand and uh so that's sort of giving you a special favor if we decided fronting is us one not the old road you would be the exception and that I have a problem with that well I I respond to that by saying the the council before you I don't care was asked the same question and they decided it in my favor and if you think because I sit here and you're fearful and I understand your fear I I had an election you know about that but um if you think that that makes us look like we're doing the Bubba system you know every time a council member asks for something uh that that requires approval by the council I guess the new policy is we should deny that no or fear I'm not saying that but sounds we just decided that Frontage meant the US one so now we're ignoring what we just decided is that am I not seeing this right well you're also ignoring what the prior Council in two I don't care what the because I don't agree with what the prior council did so does that doesn't mean we have to follow them though it it doesn't okay well then I'm done let somebody else talk okay so let's let's with that being said let's open public comment if we if there is anybody for public comment Marty I yes Susan rafanello and Deb Gillis I'm sorry no no sorry I I forgot to mention I'm not voting on this because it's my thing and I have a conflict form I've already turned one in at the last meeting when this was on the agenda and because it was continued I'm not sure if I'm supposed to turn in another one but I have it and I'm going to do that so I just wanted to say that as a reminder I'm not voting on this one okay thank you then Deb Gillis just answer that you you don't have to turn in another one if you've already turned one in the only requirements are within Marne said I did right yep okay all right very good thank you Deb Gillis alamana I'm not sure I'm really talking about this particular item but it's affordable in general and it's deep in my heart as you were uh saying um in the prior conversation I heard somebody said and I'm going to paraphrase it because we hear it quite frequently actually is not in my backyard what will that do in my backyard the people that I know that live in affordable housing and I run I manage an affordable housing project work very hard and they're very good people and I would be um privileged to have him live next to me and to to say that oh well that's just going to destroy my value or my neighborhood is ridiculous uh um so I don't know how that ties into this conversation as much as the previous conversation but you didn't have public comment on the previous but it's all affordable so I've said my piece thank you um van I mentioned this earlier and and I was basically shuffled off but when I said apples and oranges is what I meant because the old road is from the county given to us at incorporation so the village owns the old road which is entirely different from a Federal Highway which is US1 US1 the Federal Highway is the standard by which we chose to allow affordable housing so something which fronts quote unquote on US1 uh is not the same thing as someone something that fronts on the old road 4A whatever you want to call it so uh there should be no question about the interpretation and I agree with uh uh councilwoman Mahoney that that it was an error that they overrode the planning director's interpretation of of uh Mr Greg's situation and granted him the the appeal because it's very obvious to anyone who wants to walk down to US1 what fronts on US1 if you don't have it right up next to US1 in the where the the RightWay is then it's not eligible for affordable housing and so to say anything other than that is is flapping your gums it's useless conversation it's we've we've tried to interpret this so many other ways it doesn't need interpretation it just needs common sense to look at the situation and and say it does not front on US1 and US1 is a Federal Highway apples and and the old road is owned by The Village from Monroe County when we incorporated oranges so where's the problem thank you and Marty any other public comment no okay public comments closed Council Henry any discussion well I spoke about this at the last meeting and the question was is the frontage is it is it appropriate for what you want to do it's a single family residents and to me the guideline that the state adheres to in many instances and one was as I referenced was liquor licenses cannot travel all over the old road we've gone through this at kilargo uh Motel many years ago we went through it that sun set in many years ago I was there for both of them and to stay withheld the fact that you can't travel over the old road very simple I spoke to the beverage Department before the meeting just update myself on this and they comp agreed that that is still the case in that particular instance the old road just doesn't allow that you to travel across it unless you own it and the applicant doesn't own it so I suspect you know where I'm going so that's my comment thank you anybody else all right I'll see I mean Mark I one thing that I have an issue with I I came to the meeting when Chris was on Council and Deb was on Council and it wasn't a they voted that it wasn't a duplex and and today it's a duplex I I don't I mean you and I have talked about this many times and that's where I don't understand the where I mean and I've lived there since 1961 in that house behind that's behind you um and and my question is H how is it a duplex there were three votes that night that said it wasn't a duplex on Council I I don't think the issue of a duple is up tonight but if you want to talk about that I I just I mean it is it it is it was up at the last time okay it it was well well it's a little different issue tonight I'm not trying to argue with you but I want to be clear I'm not asking you to determine that the existing building is a duplex right um that battle has already occurred I'm asking you I'm asking the council for an allocation to put a duplex there which would convert the existing structure from whatever it is I say it's a duplex you say it's not but that becomes irrelevant and a moot point if this is passed if it's not then it stays as it is okay and what happens to the market rate that's there that you have now I don't know I guess uh it just kind of lingers in the air until it gets transferred so it does get transferred I mean it could I don't have any plans for that okay I I don't I don't have anything else Elizabeth you or Sharon the vice mayor I'll let you know okay well I mean we've already had public comment I mean I'm going to ask do we have a motion or or what do we have a motion or a second I'm asking for a motion do we have a motion on anybody want to make okay does anybody want to make a motion okay a motion are we going to approve this or are we going to not make I'm just I'm looking for a motion Henry you for a motion to approve no no it doesn't have to be to approve it can be either way I just let's move on I'll make a motion to deny do I hear a second I'll second it oh boy all right we have a a motion on the on the uh Motion in a second Marne to deny would you call the rooll please ccil member Henry Rosenthal yes vice mayor Sharon Mahoney yes council member Elizabeth Jolan yes and mayor budy Pender yes that motion passes four to zero Mr Mayor there was a request for a restroom break okay for a break okay all right we take a five is it okay a five minute break guys okay okay all right e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e order thank you guys for your patience it's freezing in here uh okay so we are on tab tab D D yep okay it's uh tabd is an ordinance on second reading it's an ordinance of is mar Village violence Florida amending Chapter 30 Land Development regulations Article 4 administrative procedures division 2 development review process section 30- 212 of the village code to create a re review for the imposition of certain conditions providing for severability providing for inclusion in the code providing for the transmittal of this ordinance to the State Department of Commerce and providing for an effective date upon the approval of this ordinance by the State Department of Commerce um as you all might recall this is a u this provides for a process for Council to um consider um certain what I would call exaction challenges um uh to any conditions that might be placed on an applic uh uh development by the planning director uh before it gets to the point of litigation um and this would set forth the process to do that um I don't know if you want me to go into any more detail as this is second reading um but I can go into as much detail as you all would like Council anybody need any any more any okay all right public comment is now open Marne you have any speakers let me double check on Zoom but I do not believe so uh no sir no okay public comments closed Council uh if we're not having any discussion is there a motion I move to deny okay do I hear a second can we discuss sure I think we have to have a second yeah you got a with the motion pending you've got to deal with that uh I just want to know why that so I'll second it for discuss question purp sure I'm curious why you would like to deny yeah thanks thanks for the question so um in this analysis the the explanation is that under this proposed language the V the V The Village Council would serve as the final Arbiter of any Challenge and and I have um on occasion noticed that that you know with this group and with you know other councils that sometimes our decisions are are [Music] um you know become personal in nature and um and I I I don't want a final decision um to be left to the Village Council because occasionally we make arbitrary decisions unintentionally I'm sure um so that's it may I ask John some questions um my understanding that the purpose for this uh amendment was to provide us with additional protection and this is the mechanism to do that with and um I believe it has to do with uh the exhaustion of administrative remedies maybe is that kind of where this is oriented yeah that's correct this is was written and designed to be an additional protection for the village as well as to it would flesh out and get additional information um from any Challenger or potential Challenger to a condition um and it would you know basically give the The Village um an additional uh bite of the Apple uh before it gets to um if it were to get to litigation stage before it gets there um so in an attempt to potentially avoid uh the expense and resources that that come along with litigation that's that's my understanding is it's it's a it's a second opport well I shouldn't say a second but it's it's a final opportunity to engage with the person who's unhappy with us uh to work out something and um it it requires a little extra step I I'm in favor of that I I mean I was a mediator um I believe in talking to resolve things so um I would like to go forward with it if it's appropriate I would withdraw my second on the motion just one one other comment I mean what what concerns me here is that we are we're dis this this language is disregarding the fact that we do have a process that we follow we have a code that is set up to be fair um we have good legal council um that and you know and I I don't I'm surprised that we need a you know I don't know a window into the potential you know a window into how someone is going to um you know um to to sue us so to speak um so and and what this allows is that it just allows for um a a potent the potential for a part I um as opposed to an impartial judgment because this group changes and and and occasionally and you know we we make decisions that that are uh that aren't as arbitrary that are inconsistent yeah I thank you I I was struggling for that word funny I thought of that just a few minutes ago I I bet you did and so this is and and additionally and and maybe John you can speak to this why is this just it's for the for the applicant but for example if something is um if there's a a scenario that where you might have the applicant all is allowed to move forward with their project and then the the community wants to Sue that person there's not really it doesn't seem like this gives that opportunity to anyone who's affected by that applicant this would not take away any rights of an affected property owner if they do have the right to to bring suit this is this is directed strictly to exaction claims which is a a claim that you have you have um uh forced something upon them or you have exacted something a concession from them that they should not legally be entitled be required to to provide uh or or to give so this this process is is a narrow process just yes you would there would not be an exaction Claim by a neighbor because they're not being forced to pay what could what somebody might argue as an illegal fee um but yeah your your neighbors would still have the process to to bring suit um if they qualify if they have standing and if they have a a legal basis uh to do so um just like an applicant if they have standing and a legal basis to do so would would have that ability this as as uh Councilman Greg alluded to there's a concept in um in Florida law called the exhaustion of administrative remedies so if if there is a remedy that is available to to somebody through the uh government the administrative government process they could not then go in and bring suit until they actually go through that process this is another process that that they would have to go through and and I think it it's really designed to provide uh additional pre protections to the Village um I I understand the concerns that a a a council you know may may or may not do something that is inconsistent um but the reality is is that that still exists whether this is here or not because if somebody brings suit there is always the potential to settle something and any settlement unless it is a monetary settlement that falls within the authority of the manager would need to be approved by the Village Council so that that concern would still exist or could still exist with or without this uh this potential change so I'm not sure whether anyway I would just stand with the fact that this is an inconsistent group and it has been historically and I'm not going for it but thank you for attempting to make me understand that I'm I'm I'm yeah okay since Mark redrew H withdrew his second I think you need to deal with the motion because it is it was a motion and a second I think you do need to deal with it um with a an up or down vote okay but if Mark re removed his removed his I didn't remove I can't remove it you can't okay I didn't think so all right so if there's if there's further discussion you have there's no further discussion you can have a vote and if it passes um then you know the it uh it will fail or this this item will be uh defeated okay all right Marne we have a motion in a second can you and this this is to deny right okay um okay Mary call the role please council member Elizabeth Jolan yes council member Mark Greg with due respect to the motion no council member Henry Rosenthal no vice mayor Sharon Mahoney no and mayor buddy Pender no okay that motion pass fails one four move to approve I hear a second so moved all right got a motion in a second Marney call the roll please council member Mark Greg yes council member Henry Rosenthal yes council member Elizabeth jolen nope vice mayor Sharon Mahoney yes and mayor buddy Pender yes that motion passes 4 to one okay so we are we we've already done en andf John so we're going on to g yep and so I'll read the uh I'll go through the the Quasi judicial um discussion again that way anybody who is here for uh tabs G or I can be sworn in um uh so again we are we are in quas judicial section the remaining ones are tabs g h and I please be advised that the following agenda items are quasa judicial in nature if you wish to comment upon these items please inform the village clerk by filling out the available signup form and opportunity for persons to speak on each item will be made available after the applicant and staff have made their presentations on each item as a reminder uh testimony and quas judicial items must be in person Zoom testimony is not permitted these proceedings will be handled in accordance with the village code requirements all testimony including public testimony and evidence will be made under oath or affirmation additionally each person who gives testimony may be subject to cross-examination if you do not wish to be either cross- examed or sworn your testimony shall be disregarded the general public will not be permitted to cross-examine Witnesses but the public May requ re EST the council to ask questions of Staff or Witnesses on their behalf the full agenda packet on each item is hereby entered in the record along with the village code and comprehensive plan any correspondence that was received by The Village staff is included in the file and part of the record persons representing organizations must present evidence of their authority to speak for the organization further details of the quas judicial procedures in section 30256 of the village code will be obtained from the village clerk uh there there are remaining three items again g h and I at this time I'd ask anyone who intends to speak on the quasa judicial items GH or I to please raise your hand and be sworn in by the clerk if you intend to [Music] speak in the matter about which you are to give testimony do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth the witnesses have been sworn and uh Council G and H are uh are companions uh like we have we dealt with with the um the church item um so before I read the uh the captions I wanted to see if the council would like to take those those together and then obviously and confirm with the applicant um uh their their consent to that as well I don't have a problem with taking them together any Council have any other Council no problem okay an applicant okay with that okay uh so those items are uh tab G an ordinance of Isam Village of Island Florida considering the request of Sharon Mahoney on behalf of HV s82 Investments LLC to amend the Village's future land use map from residential conservation RC to mixed use mu for the subject property located on Plantation key with real estate number 0041 1584 00- 0000000000 as legally described herein providing for the transmittal of this ordinance to the State Department of Commerce and providing for an effective date upon the approval of this ordinance by the State Department of Commerce tab H is an ordinance of is Mara Village violence Florida considering the request of Sharon Mahoney on behalf of hvs2 Investments LLC to amend the official zoning map from native residential NR to Highway commercial HC for the subject property located on Plantation key with real estate number 0415 1840 000000000000 that's legally described herein providing for the transmittal of this ordinance to the State Department of Commerce and providing for an effective date upon the approval of this ordinance by the State Department of Commerce uh Council before uh we begin uh would ask that you please disclose any exte Communications that you may have had with the applicant or anyone else and again these are tabs G and H and uh please include whether the person represented any group or entity as well as the subject matter of that discussion or those discussions no one for me other than staff Sue Miller I have talked to Sharon about this quite a while ago um I actually uh uh got a thing from the county about the what it what the zoning used to be before the village came into existence before Sharon was ever on Council so I'll say that and I have talked to staff ask yeah yeah yeah I called Emily at the county to get that whole striple land and I also know that the one that Miss rafanello owns uh Joe Michel's uh the village has that because I I actually looked at it myself in 2020 when her sister and her both called me about it um and because his application was turned in in 2007 and uh it was changed from what it was to the commercial that it is today Highway commercial I believe that's what it was that's it oh wait a minute I wait you don't have to disclose hey I forgot about Lan because I get a haircut with lanne so Lan did talk to me about it too so all right okay uh we are ready to proceed okay Jennifer I have to recuse myself correct correct yeah and that was also why um you didn't have to disclose xation because you're not voting that's why I did excuse me thank you Council Again Jennifer deor and planning director for the village Isa marada I'm here this evening for the applicant um application um the applicant HV s82 Investments LLC theyve submitted a a future land use map flum Amendment from residential conservation to mixed use as well as a zoning map Amendment from native residential to Highway commercial the subject property is located at 88755 Old Highway it's comprised of 12,000 Square ft the property is developed with an existing commercial Greenhouse the prop the subject parcel is located in Plantation key the owner previously received an approval from enro County prior to V Village incorporation to construct a greenhouse to support the flower shop there flower shop upon Village incorporation the property was zoned native residential this made the greenhouse a pre-existing non-conforming use the property does contain some habitat and a preliminary review by The Village's biologists determined that the remaining habitat could be considered high quality hammock however the limit of clearing has already been established and per the village code no additional clearing will be allowed the property is not recognized as Habitat to any state or federal listed animal species and is not within the state's conservation Recreation lands boundary or critical habitat area pursuant to the gis Village's GIS data and Records the parcel is defined as some hammock along the perimeter with no habitat on the central part of the parcel the subject property currently has an existing residential conservation future land use designation the surrounding properties to the South are designated designated residential conservation to the north the adjacent property is designated mixed use the properties to the west across Overseas Highway are designated as public semi-public services and mixed juice and to the east across the old road is residential low the character of the subject property is an existing Greenhouse surrounded by hammock and the surrounding areas mixed use with a collection of commercial uses institutional uses and single family residences the subject property has an existing native Ral native residential zoning District designation the adjacent properties to the South are designated native residential to the north the adjacent property is designated as Highway commercial the properties to the west across Overseas Highway are designated as public sem public services and Highway commercial and to the east across the old road is residential estate the character of the subject property again is the existing greenhous surrounded by hammock and the existing areas mixed use again with the collective of commercial uses institutional uses and single family residences this item was heard by the LPA that's March 11th meeting and voted to recommend approval and I believe this one was 6 to2 but I'm sure Deb will correct me um the proposed flum amendment from residential commercial to mix use in conjunction with the companion application for zoning amendment to Native residential from native residential to Highway commercial would allow the applicant owner to legally continue to use the commercial use on the pro legal sorry legally continue a commercial use on the property areas designating mixed use on the future land use map recognize the prevalent and historical mixed use pattern of the development in the village the mixed use designation shall accommodate a mix of commercial and residential uses which may be located in the same building Limited semiu public and semi-public uses recreational facilities schools marinas tourist oriented facilities and supportive Community facilities and salary to the permitted uses pursuant to the standards and the comprehensive plan and Land Development regulations again your uh Council communication has impact policy analysis including uh the density analysis the impact on public facilities and the the uh comprehensive comprehensive plan objectives it is also uh outlines the compatibility with the principles for guiding development for the Florida Keys area of State critical concern designation and the procedures for amendments to the zoning map pursuant to section 30- 411 d4b of the code of ordinances The Village Council must find that the application is consistent with the comprehensive plan that the applicant has complied with all procedural requirements of the section and that the maintenance of the existing zoning on the property does not accomplish a legitimate public purpose The Village Council shall make the determination on the finding of legitimate public purpose based on one or more of the following factors demand for the proposed zoning District in the village is in relation to the amount of land currently zoned and available to accommodate that demand pursuant to The Village's GIS data and Records there are approximately 538 Parcels that are designated within the highway commercial District which represents approximately 7.56% of the total 7,18 total Parcels in within Island morage of the 538 Parcels within Highway commercial District 85% of the parcels are vacant which equals approximately 15.79% of the total Parcels number two compatibility of the site's physical geological hydrological and other environmental features with the use permitted in the proposed zoning designation the site is currently developed and has been used as a commercial use for many years these uses are compatible with the proposed zoning District data errors including errors in mapping vegetative sites and natural features described in the company a plan there's no evidence that there are any errors in The Village's GIS data records or other resources the applicant owner/ owner argues that the village did not provide individual notice regarding the zoning change upon incorporation The Village was not required to provide individual notice but a search of Village records did find that several public meetings were held regarding this topic and several informational senss were also held at the time of incorporation new issues The Village has accepted 300 additional for affordable housing units according to the Department of Commerce there is an additional need for commercial space in conjunction with these units number five recognition of the need for additional detail or comprehensiveness at this time there's no need for additional detail because there is no proposed changes to the subject property and number six compatibility of the proposed district with the property surrounding the site as requested rezoning in any applicable neighborhood Redevelopment plan and as previously indicated the subject property currently has an existing native residential zoning District the adjacent properties to the cell as a native residential to the North Highway commercial and the properties to the west across overseas are designated Public semi-public Services Highway commercial and to the east across Old Road is a residential estate at this time staff has reviewed the request for the uh future land use map Amendment and the official zoning map Amendment and determine that the request the requests meet the criteria and therefore staff recommends approval of both items I'm here to answer any questions you might have Council anybody any questions for uh Jennifer I have some discussion but I'll like to do that after the testimony from the witnesses hry you got anything not not at this moment okay Elizabeth okay all right so we we can hear a public comment then those that are in favor first uh the applicant is uh uh is able to uh make a presentation and then we'll get into the public testimony for those in favor can I do it at the end or do I have to do it now yeah it's it's set up now but you are the applicant is entitled to a rebuttal at the end as well though yes but before it gets turned over to um to council um uh discussion um well the only thing I'd like to say is maybe correct some things that aren't correct in this town would have been said um I really like the story that my dad won it from Henry in a poker game i' love that story in 1960 something absolutely true there you go and um 63 was something like that yeah he must have had a good hand but um I uh bought it from my father for $10 in 1990 and I wanted to build a commercial building to go with my business I own an Al marada which is the Enchanted Florist um uh there's not really more much to say besides the fact that I pulled all my commercial permits and I have them all and Jennifer has copies of them my commercial electric handy handicap parking handicap bathroom um pay commercial taxes pay commercial insurance which I'm still doing as of today um I was never notified by anyone of a rezoning nothing I found out in 2017 Mangrove Mike actually called me who was a dear friend of mine love you Mike and um he called me and said you've been rezoned I said what and at that time Ty Harris was the planning director um Seth Lawless was our manager and Ro was our attorney M Mangrove and I came in and sat with everybody and uh Ro came out and said yeah you are grandfathered in and uh we're going to change you back to commercial but there's other people who also were rezoned so can you wait 6 months until we get with everybody and we're going to do one rezoning it'll be cheaper I said yes within those six months um Seth left uh Tai left um Co hit Mangrove Mike passed away and uh there was nobody left that I had met with so I had to start all over and when I hear people say that what did you wait so long for I had no clue who looks in the back of a newspaper to see if you've been rezoned I had no clue until Mangrove called me I have been working on this and I'm sure there's people in this Village who can say I've asked repeatedly about trying to get my zoning back since for the last is going on six years now so I didn't just start this when I got on councel and I don't care if I sit on Council or sit on the moon what's right is right and I built a commercial building I and the rumor that and Lan you were very polite to me and I appreciate it and we had a good conversation I never had US1 access never ever I wanted it when I started building it and they said because Joe michelas had it and there was a turnoff on the other side that they were not going to do three turnoff and all they would give me is Old Road access so I took it and yes it's true and 2007 Mr Michaelis uh applied to get his zoning back and he got it and I watched the LPA meeting actually I sat in the audience which is a really weird place to be to watch this and uh Susan rapanello said that if the zoning wasn't changed when she bought the building she would have fought against it well that didn't happen and you have the benefits of being commercial and I don't but my property AB buts up to yours and the Rumor also about Michael Murphy and I merging our land and building a strip mall are you kidding me I don't want to do anything like that all I really want to do is put a roof on on it brick up the sides and rent it to I don't know maybe another lawyer or maybe an accountant something low impact I have no I cannot and I know Daniel's out there and I don't know if he's sitting out here because of this thing but I cannot touch any of the hammock and I cannot change the size of the building it's a done deal and I'm sure Jennifer will attest to that so I guess I'm one of the first sins of the village included along with Island chrisan CHR sojan and several other people who this is unfair and I'm not asking for something that I don't think anyone could say I don't deserve so I'm done okay thank you um we want to go to public comment now John are we okay with that yeah it would be uh public testimony um uh for those in favor of the application first and then those opposed go uh second under our rules and and just so the public knows this this was built Jennifer correct me if I'm wrong I believe because I saw the permits that her daddy pulled from Monroe County this was all built with because I think Pat dun built it but it was all built before the village came into existence correct that's correct okay all right that's all just wanted the public to know that okay all right so do we have anybody that wants to speak in favor yes all right Marne um Ty Harris van Cadenhead tip Gillis and Tony Hammond thank you Ty Harris 110 Plantation Shores Drive I I won't give you the fire and brimstone speech that I gave earlier but it still applies the the same fundamental ideas of fairness and restoring people's property rights um applied to the church applies to this application and any application that comes before this has a clear history of being commercial has a commercial building it was zoned commercially originally and even when the county came in and rezoned it they made it Suburban residential which guess what still allows offices so it's always had a thread of being able to use be used as an office some modest commercial space it's no different it it should have been rezoned when Michel did his in 2007 and we wouldn't be here going through this but nobody knew you heard the testimony of the applicant that she didn't even know it had been reson which is a common theme that you're going to hear from a lot of people that that are dealing with this so um the fact that it cannot be cleared any more than it has already been cleared means that it really only has the type of uses that um Miss Mahoney already expressed which is a very modest um office for a professional because you only have three parking places so there's not a lot that's going to fit in and when I hear things that it would be a micro Brewery and and things like that I'll just end with this there's something called aam's razor I don't know who all knows what aam's razor is but aam razor is is a theory which is that when given a many many possibilities take the possibility that has the least amount of assumptions and and that's typically the one that's right so when you hear it could be a micro Brewery or a strip mall how many things would have to happen how many assumptions would have to be made to get to that result when the clear and obvious answer is before you because by putting a roof on and and Walling up one wall you have an office building that's one assumption what are all the steps that would take for the other and with that you know again I urge you staff has recommending approval to approve this item thank you very much thank you next Marne next is Van Caden head to follow behind uh Esquire uh and and correcting the original sin um I would urge you to pass both of these items because uh she was done wrong and was not even aware that she had been done wrong and it's just a a retroactive fix to something that was done with the First Council without the knowledge of most of the people and I think the the uh Island Community Church is a good precedent the beginning of a long string of of these kinds of uh decisions you're going to have to make and I would hope that you would make this in favor of M Mahoney and uh you know Henry I'm sorry you lost the hand but uh yeah please vote for this thank you Marney who's next up coach Hammond well Tony Hammond 246 jasmas Street Plantation key um I sit on the LPA and we did have this issue brought before us and the thing that tipped the scales for me um and this is my measuring Rod when I began to he quality high quality hammock hardwood hammock undisturbed hammock um red flags go up but when I heard that this piece of property was restricted to what was there as it existed then that TI the scale for me to vote Yes and that's going to be my measuring Rod because I believe there has to be a balance as was mentioned earlier tonight between our environmental concern ter and the rights of property owners and and balancing those two is is a tough issue as you guys have to fight at every council meeting um but the thing that made me vote Yes for this was was that particular issue the fact that nothing else can be done to that hammock uh you know that we voted no on a piece of property um adjacent to that because it was a hardwood hammock and it would require significant uh removal of of trees and and that was something I didn't think we should do so uh I encourage you to vote for this as well thank you thank you Martin anybody else in favor uh Deb Gillis she's still is Deb here here okay she must be gone okay all right so how about oppose I'm not sure of Miss rafanello position as it's not stated here but she did want to speak on this item and Luen bushin will also be speaking of opposed Susan rafanello um as has been alluded to my husband and I through an LLC owned building uh immediately neighboring M Mahoney's property and I just want to start by saying I hold vice mayor Mahoney in the absolute highest regard I think she has been a great Steward of this Village for many years and I think that she is doing what she believes is right I disagree because it is not about the person I have said this repeatedly in the past and will continue to say this in every zoning or Flume Amendment issue it is not about the person it is about the property and whe whether or not the property meets the standard for having a flume amendment made to it or a zoning amendment made to it and this property simply does not we've heard the fire and Bren stone for Mr Harris with respect to the church and that you are here and I believe I quote to write the the wrong of the original sin frankly the only person who can do that is God himself we are here as a council and you are here as a council to follow the code and to follow the comprehensive plan and under those codes in Florida law this simply the staff report does not provide the analysis needed to support these amendments the other thing that that comment raises is this in 2001 The Village Incorporated and we've and I've heard repeatedly no notice was given no notice was given well guess what notice really isn't given for any Flume amendments or a zoning Amendment just the posting on the property and a notice in the newspaper so when comprehensive amendments such as this are done for The Village at large which should be done every seven years and hasn't been done in 24 years I've been asking for it to be done for many years now so I'll I'll get that plugin as well we wouldn't be here today if that had been done and it wasn't done this isn't the original sin there were workshops there were a lot of notices given and this was 24 years ago I understand that M Mahoney may not have known and I don't question her veracity on that score but at the same time in 2011 a declaration of restrictive covenants would was done and that was longer than what at that point in time somebody's looking at the property and somebody's looking at the property hard the other issue is this is not a situation of original sin because it was Suburban residential since 1986 and it was rezoned in 1986 through Monro County not a coincidence the year that the keys became an area Statewide critical concern so it became Suburban residential and what happened next was in 1996 her father who owned the land at the time received vested rights from the county as well as a declaration of restrictive covenants for the use that the property could be made and that was for a commercial greenhouse and a work and and a work area what was not said anywhere in the staff report which I think is critical is that this use is not anywhere near what a commercial Highway commercial use would be it's not even near what an office building would be and the reason I say that is because there were no customers allowed on site and there were no retail sales allowed on site that was the emphasis of the agreement reached with the county in 1996 approximately math is bad 30 years ago in 2011 in in what I understand to be a rebuild and I could be incorrect on that there was a declaration of restrictive covenants entered into which you've seen on the board um to preserve the hammock of 60% but it also did not change the use that was grandfathered in which is legal grandfathering in is a legal use of the property so when I hear the phrase legally continue the commercial use it puts put my hackles up because there's nothing illegal with respect to M Mahoney having a commercial greenhouse on the property that was grandfathered in by the city that was what was negotiated for and passed in 1996 and that's the use it has continued to be the other issue that has come up frequently when I speak is because I do own the building next door which is Highway commercial and was owned Highway commercial when I bought it and I bought it as such um Joe mess did apply for and receive a highway commercial designation in 2006 the difference being there is that building had always been in the footprint it is now for the use it is now and existing as an office building it wasn't a negotiated use with the with the county to have a greenhouse or a commercial Greenhouse in whatever area it is it was the existing use for years and it did front US1 so here we're having an Old Highway address seeking to change from negoti use to a highway commercial use and jump over uh the various uh zoning steps can we wrap it up please I we're in a quasi judicial proceeding yeah but we've we just discovered uh Tuesday night uh that John we only allow Elizabeth you brought it up three minutes but it it's been going four minutes already so well I was told for quasa judicial proceedings there was no time limitation so I will wrap it up but I've got a couple minutes I'll be brief good just to be clear our our rules do have time limits um for for quasa judicial as well but the other night okay the the issues are twofold the applicant seeks to restore commercial uses it was zoned residential by the county and the use was um negotiated around not to be ancillary to a residential home like an office building could be or Greenhouse could be an ancillary used to a residential area it was negotiated to be a standalone property in 1996 by the CL by by the county provided no on-site sales or customer services Pro occurred at the location the Restriction also states that no right of access by the general public to any portion of the property is conveyed by this restriction and the development or uses alter effect the open space or prohibited that was also included in the 2011 resolution more than a decade ago the other aspect of the application was that there was no change to be made frankly you can if there was no change to be made there was no purpose to change then the legal non-conforming use and instead for the first time here today I've actually heard from Miss Mahoney what she would like the use to be which is a change it is a change to a relatively modest use but that's not M Mahoney's use of the property is not the concern it's who's going to use the property after M Mahoney what uses will they put to it because while I trust in Miss Mahoney's intent I don't trust the next guy because I don't even know who they are and most importantly the staff report when they went through and said we've analyzed all of the various criteria that are needed to make a flume Amendment if you read that analysis what it says is it's not apparent it's not apparent whether the public resources are going to be met or overt taxed it is not apparent whether this factor militates in favor of a flume Amendment or not you can't base a changing zone or Flume Amendment change on a don't know every single one of those criteria throughout the staff report says not apparent and why is it not apparent is because they assumed there would be no change in the use of that building but we now know there will be there is a difference even between a greenhouse which is unattended and no customer no on-site sales are made versus a highway commercial building whether it's a retail Boutique whether it's an office building whether it's a professional building with people that's a difference of use and so to say not a parent is an incorrect basis and cannot serve as a basis to make any Flume Amendment zoning changes the same we don't know what the traffic the parking will do to the hammock we haven't had any map errors and there is 85 vacant Parcels right now the fact that this would be infill it's outside of Village Activity Center which means it does not meet our uh comp plan amendments to infill so there's no need we have hardw hammock what we do know is we have hardwood hammock what we don't know is what the use will ultimately be and what impact that use will have on not only the environment but on our public infrastructure because the staff report says it's not apparent thank you thank you who's next uh Marne Luen bushin hello my name is Lan bushin and I am a across the street neighbor to this property on a diagonal and I've lived there for 30 years and um so that my interest tonight is that to ask for a zoning change when this property comes out onto the Old Highway which is residential zoning um if this was being considered to be on the highway I would have a lot less of a problem with this but for a piece of property that can barely squeak out uh a designation as commercial why would you just store a zoning for a neighborhood for a piece of property that is not worth it uh it doesn't have any status I don't know what words to use but I mean why don't you put a roof on it Sharon and call it a day um why a zoning change this how would anyone like a zoning change come across the street for them where it's dumping out onto the Old Highway that Corridor where everybody enjoys I saw buddy riding his bike yesterday I mean as it is you can hardly be on that Highway anymore with the impacts as they've changed in this community so and then the other the other two lots south of it were denied commercial mixed use in the last couple of years but if you live there you can't help but think those are going to turn too and we're going to watch 300t linear feet along that Corridor go commercial and who knows the guy that has those two lots can sell to someone that has your lot and they can combine it all and it could become a Burger King who knows I mean the coun I mean the staff is saying no it will never happen but never say never I mean we all just too naive to believe but back to the zoning um you never you had bu1 zoning light use business it was taken away and made Suburban residential and with minor conditional use in 1986 and in 19996 you that's when you got your minor conditional use so to keep saying that this is a commercial property and you lost the commercial opportunity it's not it's just simply not true um you know I've never argued my zoning there uh or and then this whole idea to say that you've been paying commercial taxes it's that's so fuzzy because you could have been paying a very advantageous commercial tax for that because you were in a residential area so those are just talking points to try to push an issue that you're taking away from a residential neighborhood um if you can't get it on the highway um then why are you trying to put it can you can you yes I can I want to make this point that the state says with Zone it's uh you you can't impact the the zoning that you're in that you're affecting that's very loose rules around it but at least that's something for us and it's impacting that zoning um put it on the highway U I don't even know why I don't know why zoning like this would be considered for a little tiny piece of property that distorts and changes things immensely for the residents that live there so thank you for listening thank you all right anybody else Marney no sir okay all right now public comment is now closed Council any discussion um just before you get to before the council gets to deliberations um uh the council can ask questions uh of staff and and an applicant and participants and then the um staff and applicant have the chance to make final argument and then we can get into then uh we formally get into deliberation uh Jennifer you got anything else I do not Rob he wasn't sword in no okay all right Sharon you want to have your robbot okay not you want to say you no okay all right who wants to go first you want me to go first why not um I have a little bit of a lengthy thing but there's some exhibits here that I there there's one of them up there and I wanted each of you to have a copy in your hand in case you can't see things like me I intend to vote to support this but I have a few questions and there's some uh answers I would like to have before we get there um I know more about this particular property than I probably should I I was involved with getting some approvals at the county when this was going through in the late 1990s and I don't remember if I saw Sharon or her dad at one of these hearings with the county but somehow I remember this and I I've seen some of these documents along the way but um I would agree with uh Tony and with Tai who spoke that this was a property that was improperly rezoned uh and having been a council member when that rezoning occurred I I even though we may have done this um uh in in accordance with the law in effect at the time it was very sneaky uh there were lots of meetings there were charettes there was all kinds of things but um I can tell you in a couple of cases I attended those and folks who were unhappy approached the staff they requested it to be changed back they said that they would they did and then a couple of uh uh reiterations of that later it got changed back there was a lot of uh slight of hand that occurred during that so again I think this is an opportunity for Poetic Justice to do what uh what should have been done 20s something years ago um I don't know if it was Sharon or her dad who was uh the one that got the approvals up to the finish line and then we incorporated and then she had to transition over and continue the process with the village but the hard work had been done uh as you see on the screen as a condition of the approval uh a declaration of Covenant a declaration of restrictive covenant was recorded and I'll summarize what this document is about it kind of like functions as a conservation easement and it requires well I I you can see my uh highly stylized enhancements in red ink uh that I put on there that's mine but it says that there uh there's a required open space and that's 60% uh that's 10% more than our code requires today um it says on the next page click Jennifer click next page it says on the next page that the open space shall exist as it is existed in 1999 and below that it says development or uses that alter the open space or affect the open space are prohibited uh It also says that this document may be amended uh that's not really the issue isue the really the issue is if you could go back to the next page sorry thank you um or I'm sorry to the first page at the very bottom you see it references exhibit a and it's it talks about a sketch of the area the protected area and unfortunately exhibit a was not attached to the document when it was recorded in the records so it is impossible to determine where that open space is so my my request tonight would be that if if this passes tonight that in between the first and second reading that exhibit a be verified by the staff as accurate and attached and I would be hopeful that uh Sharon would have a survey from the good old days or something this is floating around I don't know if did you use Dave Massie or Dave's got everything you should be able to dig this up with no trouble so that would solve that problem uh so could we click to the next document oh okay so what you see here is a portion of the site plan that Sharon had approved and this was this is this to me is the Smoking Gun this is where the planning director Cheryl Bower approved this property to be approved the site plan approved it to go forward uh and it says in that little square box it's kind of to the upper right uh vested as per resolution 136 -1977 MCB Monro County Board of County Commissioners the parking requirements are waved to only three spaces so and she signed that and then next please in the upper corner of that same document it shows that the zoning is Sr that's Suburban residential and this the the county code was the code of The Village at the time that this document was executed and approved and I can tell you that I owned an office in kilargo that was zoned Suburban residential and it and it it was allowed in that use so this was completely legal it was completely um conforming it was not no grandfathering required this one was done as I've said before they played by the rules they did everything right and they got what they asked for then two years later we voted and we voted to Chang the zoning and that's when it went from Suburban residential to conservation and and when I say that this is a Smoking Gun the planning director knew that because she approved this this wasn't a mistake it was intentional and why they did that I don't know if she made Sharon made her mad I made her mad she did the same thing to me on my property so whatever the reason it it just shows that why would a planning director it's not sound planning practice practice to take a developed property and put it into a zoning category that doesn't fit uh the minimum acreage to develop on the current zoning is what two or four acres or something this this this property could never be built on with that this this was an intentional downgrade or down Zone and it and it's wrong and so I think that needs to be brought out I think there's going to be others that follow behind us that are going to have the same story and I'm going to corroborate it every time I get the opportunity so that that issue is that's that issue there's a little bit more that is odd and when we were discussing the property next door and looking into the hammock issue it came up that the property was in a within the boundaries of an area designated under the Florida forever program for acquisition and for some reason this property is in that boundary and I say it with that tone for some reason I have never in my 38 years of doing land use work and real estate and zoning and stuff have seen where a government where this program or the one before it the Carl program where they would include uh a property for acquisition that's developed especially when that's this small so that to me is a red flag that that somebody made a mistake so before this goes for approval if it gets to the second reading I would like the staff to see if they could look into that and find out why it is that this property was not because it has to go through a process it's nominated it goes in front of the governor and cabinet it it they don't just go down the list and check it off and send it into the copy machine that's not how it works somebody knows why that was done and I'd like an answer to that so uh so the other part of this is that if we approve this zoning uh to allowed to go forward you know the applicant has testified that she would like to have an office there and so that is a low intensity thing I it's not going to be very busy office because there's only three parking spaces so um the the property is restricted on what you can clear for that um it may be you know to to to to lean towards the side of you know protecting this I I would be in favor if if we could put a conservation easement on there that was a little bit more specific and that it specifically protected the area that is supposed to be left alone that might make it a little bit more clearer I don't know if we can do that or not but I'm just throwing it out there uh if somebody wanted to you know if we wanted to really just um make sure that it doesn't turn into a Burger King and I can appreciate that if I lived across the street uh we saw on Tuesday night where an applicant proposed a zoning change but it was for a site specific limitation the subdistrict and that could be done in this case where the allowed uses on under Highway commercial could be limited to office or low intensity um I I'm suggesting that I'm not demanding that but that would be one way to ensure that in the future that this property would not be um changed over what we think it is today so on that happy note um I think it's I would I am concerned and I did watch the the LPA presentation on this Mr rafanello I think correctly raised an issue could this approval serve as a trigger or a precedent or a justification for other nearby properties to also uh be changed and I and I share that concern um one way is that we could ask for a restriction that there be no lot combinations approved there be no boundary adjustments approved so that this property will need to stand on its own in perpetuity unless that is approved by the council so um those are my concerns and I think it's fair to let the applicant respond to those I don't know if the council wants to talk about that but that's what I see on this and I'm I'm confident that we could do this and it would be a fair balance to allow someone to to use their property by protecting it I'd like to say one more thing sorry my throat's dry and I ran out of water um zoning is not static land use is not static we saw that with the church property you know used to be a movie theater and then it was a church and now it's it's outgrown the youth has outgrown and they're want to move somewhere else so it's our D Duty as the government to respond to that we have to move forward in time we don't lock everything down if we did every place would be a historic district so I I think we we can do that here this property is unique I didn't know we had an orchid or butter Orchid Farm or G Butterfly farm I'm delighted that we do and I'm sad that we might lose it but you know we can't handcuff someone to the use of their property uh just because we like it uh we have to respond to market conditions and other factors so uh I think a person has a right to make a change so that they can make some beneficial and meaningful and useful uh use is that a good word useful use of their property so um I think that's about all I got but I I would like to see this approved with those concerns in mind thank you thanks Mark Shar you got you want to okay okay Henry you want to say anything no I don't I don't either Elizabeth um I appreciate your report Mark or your commentary and I I think that um that we're all concerned about or I think we can um acknowledge the concern about the the um the idea that this property could be sold in conjunction with the other high hammock and it would turn into something yes I mean I think your your Solutions creatively address some of the problems that that have come up but I mean I plan to I'd like to um to vote for this as well I'm I'm curious to know Sharon um now or at some point how you feel about Mark's commentary put some of those conditions that he said I'd agree 100% it's about my dad I'm [Music] sorry okay so I think we need some direction on how to move forward johnly no under our code um uh once deliberations have begun there's no further presentation or testimony uh unless uh permitted at the so discretion of the council I move to letter speak I just wanted to wait it's at the discretion of the council so we have to deal yeah I'm there's a motion I'm just before she speaks I want to make sure the council we deal with the motion yeah that's what I said yep there's a motion on the floor by by uh council member Rosenthal right she's a member of the LPA I I think we should have a little latitude there and maybe give her two minutes okay Marne with the restrictions that were suggested by Council Councilman Greg if those restrictions if it was limited to the existing footb office use which is a low intensity use um which would be AB buding The Old Highway and so on and so forth as I said before I don't have any um issues with vice mayor Mahoney and what she intends to do with the property but we do need protections moving forward for who may own it next if what vice mayor Mahoney would like to do and that is documented in restrictive covenants whether it's easement covenants lot restrictions such such as the combining which is a big concern of mine as well as keeping it to an office low intensity use then um warland group uh my husband and myself would withdraw our objections I think that would resolve our concerns okay thank you John what is the mechanism that we could use to achieve the goal we're talking about yeah that's what Jennifer and I were just talking about I mean I think I mean thankly we're we're on first reading here and so I think what I would what I would ask if the if the council wants to to go that way that it would be a motion to approve um uh subject to the conditions specified and agreed to by the applicant and then we could confirm the the best mechanism to uh to make that a reality uh before before second reading obviously do we need to spell out what those conditions are I knew you were going to nod yes we have to do the thinking we can't let you read our minds anymore um I would make go ahead I mean is that something that I mean understanding the intent of of this conversation is that something that um that could come back to us it will like as in I think you get what we're saying here and with the with because because Sharon can't really speak right now um can she work with our planning department to bring absolutely that that's what it's all about be awesome what we're saying is let's let's let's not delay let's move this forward she's waited long enough and the staff understands we'll we'll I'll make a motion in a minute and we'll try to lay out the specifics and then in between now and the second reading we'll have a chance to review what that is and tweak it and put it behind us okay so I move we approve this subject to uh the inclusion of exhibit a on the Declaration of restrictive covenants uh subject to the the review and approval of the council um combined with a conservation easement protecting the open space area referenced in exhibit a and some sort of restriction limitation or contract whatever you want to call it that prohibits the uh combination of this property and a boundary adjustment lot lot adjustment or some other thing uh that would um make the size or shape or configuration of the property any different than it exists today that did that cover all of it I'll second it okay all right Henry seconded I know yeah okay you guys got it wait we've got a I I I think there was something about low intensity use or office only um yes so would this would would we Sharon you okay with that um would we would uh make this a subdistrict uh as we have done in others or what at site spe whatever that thing is called yeah we'll figure out the but the idea would be that the uses that are uh allowed under the highway commercial zoning would be limited to office use low intensity office use and in between now and then rather than handcuff ourselves if there's a few other similar uh of equal or lesser intensity we can add those on too to provide flexibility down the line if necessary how's that we got it okay so Marne we have a motion is second can you call the role please and this will be for if you remember there's two this will be for um H will have a similar motion I think you can incorporate everything for for tab I okay can we clarify please for me I was typing trying to type the motion who seconded Mark made a motion and councilman rosenfall said and I'm sorry misspoke this is G and we'll have a similar motion for tab H all right hey council member Mark Greg yes council member Henry Rosenthal I just have one recommendation no chickens oh no my goodness all right Marne go ahead chicken fight Elizabeth Jolan yes and mayor buddy Pender yes that motion passes for okay can I have a drink I'll move for an I'll move for a motion to approve uh on the zoning matter with the identical um except for the site specific thing because that doesn't go in zoning but the other conditions and limitations as in the prior motion I'll second Henry second it Arney call the rooll please council member Mark Greg yes council member Henry rosenal yes council member Elizabeth Jolan yes and mayor buddy Pender yes motion passes four to zero okay we're on to I tab I is a resolution of the Village Council of Vi marada Village of violence Florida consider a request by James Lino Esquire agent on behalf of uh my marker 8279 LLC owner to abandon and vacate a portion of Orange Street right away as shown on the plat of map of the Town site of Isa marada according to the plat thereof as recorded in plat book one at page 48 of the public records of Monroe County Florida being more particularly described in exhibit a reserving to the Village All rights over any public utility easements and providing for an effective date um yeah this is uh uh if before we begin um Council if you could please disclose any exp parte Communications that you may have had um with anyone on Tab I and please include whether the person represented any group or entity as well as the subject matter uh of the discussion as you recall Henry I uh I guess I had uh some conversation with the applicant I be about it I'm well I mean it's been a long time so you know it's the discussion or discussions and I I guess I would include Sue Miller as well thank you I'm just curious is that can you help me understand is that necessary to just conversation with anyone at all about this yeah as you recall anybody that you may have had with regard to this um because that would be considered xart communication for quasa judicial item I'll go the only communication I've had with anybody have been TI here since the last meeting since this heard last time and I should mention it does not include staff yeah same as buddy um Mary barley and um another neighbor there or two other neighbors um in that area which marbie kazy and um Nikki Rudolph my turn I think I talked to Tai and if I disclose someone at the original hearing on that whoever that was CU I can't remember we can proce proceed and um you want to adopt you can do it thank you Council Again Jennifer Dean planning director first I'd like to uh adopt the record of the previous meeting from uh your meet your council meeting on July 20th at 20 on 2023 into the record of tonight's proceedings first I'd like to say that since our last um activity on this um the agent for the applicant has changed it's now Tai Harris PA so um tyar is acting on behalf of the applicant has submitted the right of way abandonment seeking to abandon and vacate a portion of the village own right of way containing approximately 4,000 square ft of Orange Street from the intersection of Orange Street and daon Avenue northeastly to the property line boundary for 8279 Overseas Highway as shown on exhibit a legally a legal description survey again this application was before the Council on July 20th 2023 at that time the council heard testimony regarding the possibility of adding sidewalk and improvements in that area the council Ted the item to see if that was able to happen um I'd like to just I'm not going to reread my whole report and go back in because we've adopted the testimony um I would like to say that at that time the council was interested in a sidewalk plan uh there that was there was one that was done for the village in 2007 by kimley horn that I included in your packet U for this meeting um the council if the council would like an updated version um we could certainly do that um however in this instance um the plan that was provided to you shows no recommended sidewalk or bike improvements um at this location in front of this property or um affecting this uh Road abandonment request um also that we've received some communication regarding the Heritage Trail just want to note for the council's benefit that um looking at the uh Monroe County Appraiser property appraiser maps and the GIS maps at the Heritage Trail stays along the US1 RightWay and is not is not impacted by the Orange Street uh RightWay in this instance um I would also like to note that this request um I'm not sure if I was clear about it at the last hearing but this request uh is coming to us from um a condition of a sign permit that was applied for in 2022 by the owner of the property uh for the pole sign located there uh the planning director at the time required that they condition required a condition that they apply for Road abandonment um at that time and that's what instigated this request um and then finally I included in your packet um this even um this evening I think it was um some rro County and Village approved site plans that show previously approved parking located within the right of way of Orange Street um that's all the information I have at this time um if there's anything else I'm happy to answer questions um however you would like to proceed we ready to hear from the applicant John we okay for yep yeah unless you have questions to staff they they're up next as you know I'm not Jim leino and I will not in any way try to replicate the almost hour and a half that I think uh this Council spent in July uh discussing this matter uh but there was a task left with staff at the end of that meeting and it was go forth and look into whether there's a pedestrian and bicycle plan and is there any evidence that there is still a a public benefit to retaining the RightWay and as you all know Dan and I didn't agree on a lot of things but this is one that Dan and I actually agreed upon because Dan being an attorney realized that as part of the sign permit application that the village didn't want to retain liability over the RightWay which had already been approved to be used for parking that doesn't make a lot of sense so that was a very um intelligent move on his part to require that we request the abandonment and as staff has pointed out and you should have in your updated package there have been at least three site plans including the original one in 1976 approved showing parking approved over that rideway so even without getting into the 2007 bicycle and pedestrian plan whatever public benefit may have been there it was extinguished by the approval of those site plans um fast forward to the 2007 pedestrian and bicycle study I had heard about this study as a rumor because I think people were still complaining about the $70,000 that the village paid back in 2007 for the study and the study is 50 pages long I reviewed the study I talked to staff about it I didn't see any planned improvements on this portion of the RightWay because that would have been that would have changed the discussion we'd be having tonight so with all the evidence that is in front of us and the site plans that have been approved um staff is completely correct there is no public benefit uh to this property I've also heard that there were questions about safety in this section and and accidents I I couldn't find any accident report data that showed this area being um unusually unsafe so if somebody else has that I'd be interested in seeing it but I will tell you this if there are future plans that that to do something in that area um at The Village's expense to make it nicer looking make it safer my client is on the record saying they will cooperate 100% as long as it doesn't come out of their pocket so if the plan does change and there's an opportunity to make it better make it nicer make it safer we're all on board with that but at this point uh we respectfully request that U you follow your staff's recommendation and approve the uh abandonment of the RightWay thank you very much Madame vice mayor um the uh next would be uh partic any um sorry to do that to you uh next up would be any um public testimony in uh support of uh uh the application don't worry buddy I got it is there any anyone in support of this application please step forward good job I don't specifically have anyone signed up in support um but B Hayden head has a position of neutral um and then we have um Mr schwep as opposed so uh guess van could come on up and tell us what his position is oh van please have van um thank you all so much for your time and for your patience this evening almost to the end Paul schwep on behalf of the Mary barley Family Trust and Princeton LLC they are affected property owners in the area and I appreciate the opportunity to present an opposition to this application just as a preliminary matter in response to the applicants attorney uh that the desires to put a sign on the road uh that's not a rationale to abandon The Village's rights uh to the road which it owns the sign should go on their property oh did that work oh he's got to move it uh okay so this is this is a depiction of the property you can see the CVS next door uh that has a clearly delineated and buffered sidewalk uh the driveway uh is oriented perp pendicular to the highway that's all in compliance with your code but meanwhile when you get to the applicant's property there is no clearly delineated sidewalk there's no buffer whatsoever and there's no driveway you've got this Helter Skelter approach with vehicles randomly pulling in backing out of the highway uh into the parking lot uh the next slide please okay this this uh this actually shows you a street view that lets you see where where the CVS sidewalk just suddenly vanishes and then you come to the applicant's property again when you look at the CVS property there's the buffering there's a sidewalk there's a perpendicular driveway uh versus what looks to be a pretty shambolic and halfhazard approach to park at the applicant's property and their their parking is on the villages owned Road uh let's go to slides forward there we go uh here's your code provision on ating uh public streets the council has authority to do it but only where abandonment uh is in the public interest and only if no affected property owner objects and and council member Greg I listened very carefully when you were speaking on an earlier matter about adjacent Property Owners adjoining AB budding Property Owners the language of your code is an affected property owner and that means an adjacent property owner or uh any one who by virtue of the abandonment will have access uh that's currently used eliminated and here you've got at least four affected Property Owners people who own property that currently use the area uh that will have that use eliminated they will by virtue of this abandonment become trespassers on what's now A Village Street and in fact your staff report makes that clear that if you permit this abandonment to go forward the the property owner can fence it off Etc so now an area that's currently used by Property Owners uh will no longer be available to them and Lorie Stone objected that's part of the record of this proceeding on April 12th she owns 18 avocado she regularly uses the area to walk and bike Stephanie and Scott Reed both objected uh they are they are at 193 avocado they also bike and walk in that area and of course uh Mary barley and the opponent that I represent has objected so you've got a situ ation where you have affected affected Property Owners uh that do object you can only abandon uh if the public interest would be promoted uh by abandonment and here abandonment is actually uh uh adverse to the public interest your code has a number of Provisions that right now the property doesn't comply with uh and by abandoning you foreclose your ability to require compliance and what are those requirements as part and this is part of the Village Center so so uh your code says that you should promote walk up traffic and enhance pedestrian related activities but instead you've got cars just coming right off of US1 and pulling straight into this area that's a a uh a public Street uh that's adverse to pedestrian and bike activities you've got to require that a driveway uh entrance require no backing movements but here where there where vehicles are parking to leave that area they would have to back back or maneuver into the rideway and in this case in the US1 because of the orientation of the property and your code says in no case shall a parking uh or loading space require backing movements or other maneuvering directly on the US1 uh RightWay which is the situation right now they're in violation of that uh and then your code is section 3815 F requires perpendicular driveways with a buffer which is lacking at this property so abandoning vacating your ownership of this RightWay will foreclose your ability to implement these requirements on what is right now Village owned property uh your code even has a map of what the driveway requirement should look like the perpendicular orientation to the road uh and as was mentioned uh abandonment was inom it would be incompatible with with the bike and pedestrian plan that was adopted by The Village in 2007 that's part of your cdmp and your comp plan you say that the village should provide land uses to promote use of bicycles and pedestrian movements to enhance the over overseas Heritage Trail and to address pedestrian access to US1 and your bike plan calls for the village to enhance and widen uh bicycle pedestrian shared use paths so yeah you shouldn't really reward what is a non-compliant parking lot that's on Village owned property by giving away that Village property uh and we submitted and this was provided to you all back in July uh Consultants report that shows what you could do with this area how you could in a way that's compliant with your code provide for a driveway that's perpendicular uh to the street a buffered area uh and then a a protected sidewalk and bike path so let me make just a couple of final points there's no such thing as adverse possession against the government the fact that this applicant has been using a street that's owned by The Village doesn't mean that they just now become the owner of it adverse possession doesn't work against the government they've maintained it that to be sure but they've also benefited from it so they natur of course they should be maintaining it what they should be doing is coming and paying you the property tax on property that they're using and paying you rent because they've been using it not asking you to give it away for free to them because they've been using it in the past that's against your code so we respectfully request you deny the application thank you so much thank you thank you so hbal first I can assure you we are not putting up a no trespassing sign on a business that is open to the public uh it would be unwise and it would also be contrary to the site plan which the original site plan that was approved in 1976 which essentially gave that property owner the right to use the right way I mean I don't think there's any debate I haven't heard anybody including the previous presentation make the assertion that we don't have the right to use it uh second this is consistent with the 2007 plan as I stated in my first uh presentation uh there are no planned improvements uh for this portion of uh the rideway so it is consistent with the 2007 plan and finally um there's a big piece of this missing uh that goes into some fairly Advanced Land Use which is that uh there are no code violations there are no violations of any of our codes because under Florida law uh just changing a retail to a retail to a retail doesn't trigger new development standards unless you add um area to the building so under 163 this is just a change of tenant so the original rules that were in place when this when this was approved still apply unless there's a substantial change in tenant and Andor a change to the size of the building so those those Provisions are not applicable uh they are um completely under chapter 163 just the change of um of tenant thank you okay Council any further discussion ladies first go ahead okay just a couple of questions first off I'd like to ask a Jennifer a few questions regarding this tab one that we have tab one I'm sorry uh the handout yeah pardon me the I yes T I have I I'm on old man I can't read um so this document has a date on it well I'm assuming it's a date of 19 96 76 76 see I can't read so it appears to me to be a survey of the property that came from somewhere that was um the original approval I believe for the townsite supermarket from Monroe County in 1976 okay did you did I hear you say survey or site plan um I think it's a survey plan okay survey I note that the parking uh there's a word parking that appears to be in the area of Orange Street that is correct okay and was this survey used for some sort of approval of a permit or something believe it was yes okay so that would mean that the county has approved in a manner of speaking the county has approved what's on this paper which shows parking in Orange Street yes because the these these were found in our uh permit records archives yes so let me flip to the next one which is oh there's a bunch of them okay in 2005 and U I don't have the uh eagle eyes to read the detail but it certainly does look like this is a modern version of a a survey for the same property with more detail but it shows the same thing Orange Street and I I think I see parking spaces delineated there are some perpendicular lines that seem like they could be parking uh paint or something but um at any rate it it seems that there is it does it say parking in there parking space yes it does okay it does okay thank you and then 2012 I don't think I've seen this one oh no I haven't what is this that is a building permit um for the Dollar Tree um I'm not sure for what exactly there was a permit for but it was um for the Dollar Tree from 2012 was s plan part for part of a building permit application was this document submitted to the Village as part of an application for it was it was found in our archived records and it was approved yes so in effect we've approved parking in Orange Street that's correct okay so when I went to law school uh I heard the gentleman who had a very excellent presentation by the way in a a wonderful baritone voice I envy you uh made a comment that you cannot adverse possess against the government which is true however it's only adverse if it's not consensual so it appears to me that this is a consensual use of that we we've in essence given the applicant the the permission to park his car in the road park the cars in the road isn't that is that a fair assumption be I'd like to finish if you don't mind and it'll let the mayor address a [Music] response I'm not trying to trick you I just ask Buddy what that says buddy what does that say right there I was trying to read that we can't even I mean it's it's actually I can't I can't read I mean this is hard to even reference because we can't see it take a picture your phone you can oh yeah blow it up with your phone picture with your phone can you blow it up oh my God put your camera doing we not supposed to use our phones on the Das it Mark you can put your camera on and you okay okay here we go said existing vegetation which if this was an approve this was a site approval yeah mine says existing parking spaces that's what mine says exist ing yes pylon there's a sign thing there yes on the other end of the parking so existing visitation on the end but existing it might have a number there it could be an eight what were you what were you getting at this is well what I'm getting at is you know this is a public road where we have uh sort of in a de facto way given permission to use it exclusive position permission um that's not adverse that's and he's right you can't adverse possess against the government but this isn't adverse so it looks like it's consensual we said it's okay and we conditioned three permits on that three that I know of and um I know that uh there was a sign permit is that right that was done in 2022 that's correct there was a sign permit in 2022 and an asphalt permit in 2022 but this abandonment was conditioned on the sign permit or the sign permit was that's what I was I was going to get to how did the sign get built then just a second let me let me let me finish I'm almost done I'm almost done um I I I understood that there was a 2022 permit for a sign for esal parking lot for repair whatever it was but the planning director Dan galizio included a provision Vision or a condition that the applicant was to apply for this road abandonment so in other words he was required to do what we're doing tonight uh in order to comply with the permit that he received is that a fair statement yes it is okay um with regard to the presentation that we saw um some things I I agree with some things I don't uh with regard to the word adjacent that word is defined in section or um Chapter 30 of our code which is the Land Development regulations and we're dealing with uh chapter 50 now which has to do with roads and streets and so forth I'm not sure that the ldr definition applies here it might but um I was not able to understand can you staff tell me how it is that um the Mr swip's clients are their access is affected by what we might do tonight I mean I I can't I guess is what my answer would be but the access comes on um comes through I believe through daily own Avenue that takes takes it down I don't believe that access to the property is required through Orange Street particularly in the in the given how it has been developed my understanding is that affected party is someone who would be deprived of access or have their access uh impaired in some way yeah our code specifically it defines affected party under Section 50-55 um there's four uh things uh that that could make up an affected property owner so I guess I can just read it so you all have I just want to know if they're affected party under Section 50 chapter 50 um I would say they were not uh they have not been deemed to be because they were not sought out to uh to see if they had an objection or if they consent to it I should say which is one of the requirements okay I think I'm finished for now thank you Henry no I'm just waiting for this gentleman on to rebuttal go ahead come on come on yeah U thank you guys so much for your Indulgence I know it's late and I appreciate it um they are affected Property Owners because your definition doesn't require them to be a joining it just requires them to be property owners who currently use the cities right The Villages right away which they do and that's in the record I mean in other words the emails by Property Owners say I own property and I use this area uh and my use will be limited if you give it away for nothing do they park there well no what they said in their email is they bike and they walk on Orange Street so that's that's they are affected Property Owners under your codes definition The Village only gave notice to folks within 300 ft apparently of this application site I don't know how they came up with that number because that's not what the code requires it says any affected property owner and that's somebody who owns property whose use will be restricted if you give away the village property but how do they use it if the cars are parked on it well they can they can walk and they can bike in that area there's you know that it gets pretty tight in there but there is a section of Orange Street where they can and by the way and we made this point in our letter if you abandon it you only abandon to the center line of Orange Street by law the other side of it would go to the State of Florida it would not go to the applicant by doesn't I understand that I'm I'm good with that part I just I did want to point out adverse possession means adverse if the village out of its graciousness said okay we'll let you use the street to park cars that's not adverse in other words that's by your agreement that doesn't give them any right whatsoever to the property because you've let them do it doesn't mean that now they suddenly become the owner when you've let them do it that's not adverse possession it's the reverse I understand Council can I just correct a couple things that were said um first the abandoning to the center that is the way it was stated is not correct the village would be if the village approves this we would be abandoning the entirety whether it how it gets separated that's not in the resolution that that is a different item but I I want want to make sure it's clear the village is not abandoning only half of this right away the village what's being proposed it's a village is abandoning the entirety of it and then how it gets separated amongst adjoining property owners is a different issue so the village as being proposed if this is a uh approved is abandon would be abandoning the entire uh right of way the village did not uh only uh provide notice to people within Property Owners within 300 ft notice was provided in accordance with the code um and also uh anybody that met the definition of affected property owner um uh the planning department reached out to them to see if they have any uh if they consent or have any objection to this as is required under the code uh so I just wanted to clarify uh clarify that could you explain that last part further the you reached out to all affected Property Owners yeah that so under the sorry yeah so under the code uh as part of the code under to abandon a road under section 50-56 one of the um uh requirements is the abandonment shall not be granted unless all affected Property Owners agree to the abandonment so the planning department this was prior to um to Jennifer this was under when uh Mr gesia was the planning director reached out to all of the affected Property Owners uh to get um letters of what he called letters of no objection those are in the packet that that are provided for uh as part of this but that is that's probably just an interpretation of the current of the planning department because anyone in Isa marata who owns property and uses that that sidewalk would be an affected property owner no that's not the definition of affected property owner in in Isa marata it's affected property owner is you have access that you currently use that the property owners is eliminated so just using property does not mean you you have access that's been eliminated as a property owner you have platted access that's eliminated that's not happening here um there's a paved area adjacent to the property is increased for turnaround purposes that is not what's talking or your um the property owners's uh property is being increased in size obviously anybody who's adjacent to it would conceivably be getting uh or could be getting their property increased in size I mean this does not create to to read it that broadly would mean every single resident in the entire Village of Isam would be an affected property owner that is not how I read this uh that is not how I I don't want to speak for Jennifer I don't believe that's how she reads it that is not how the prior planning director read it I don't read this to mean every single person is an affected property owner because he or she may have stepped foot on the right of way at some point I I agree with you but do we need to extend the meeting yeah we do that oh yes sorry brought it up Mark so do I hear a motion to extend move to extend till 10:30 but again that that's just one element so whether they're an affective property owner that's only one element so so there are there there uh there are two elements that uh to abandon there are two elements that the um uh that the The Village would need to find the other one is that there's no public interest in continued access to the right of way of the easement that is not specific to affected Property Owners okay any anybody else else have anything Council vice mayor Mahoney yeah um I guess what's so hard about this is the fact that as you can see by this this has been like this for a long long time a we I don't think the village has a policy for I don't know how many abandoned roads we have but maybe that's something we should look into to see and maybe there should be some monetary something for the village if we do end up a abandoning a road just saying that as far as this building goes I've had the pleasure of being across the street from it for 27 years long time and um I have never seen an accident there I agree with Mr Harris on that I have never seen anybody willy-nilly pull off of there in fact I hope I don't get my own self in trouble here by saying that you want to see a a building where you pull in and you have to back out on us one come come by my shop we have the worst parking I think in all of all marada where there's three businesses myself Coastal reality and windy day plumbing and the parking lot is full every day and we have to back straight out and when the sidewalk situation was brought up by this gentleman the first thing I thought of was well wait a second the sidewalks are broken all through Alam marada it's not like uh town site Dollar Tree everything this property has been ever had a sidewalk out there there wasn't just like in front of my building there's no sidewalk but yet you go past my building and the sidewalk starts in front of the post office and on down so the idea that there should be a a sidewalk there there's never been a sidewalk there and if we have to start worrying about how people back out I I freak went in at the Dollar Tree okay and I never backed on to US1 so I'm having a hard time imagining when you're saying unless somebody needs to way back out it's pretty easy to turn around in there I I've never had a problem with it and again there's people who ride bikes back and forth on both sides of the road there's no bike path in front of my building and I can't tell you how many times I've gone to back out and almost pick somebody off which is horrible because you can't see at least I'm honest you can't see so this is isn't just this one piece of property that doesn't have a bike path it's peppered all the way down all marada at least that's well the road is a fragment it's been abandoned on both sides I also bought my glasses at the Dollar Tree um but there's another concern uh that I think it it affects everybody in the village and that's uh I believe this is in our Charter it's in our comp plan and it's probably in our code and that is uh a strong opposition to widening US1 on upper manaki and to me uh by abandoning this road that supports that position by making a piece of public property that could be widened uh into a private one that would uh discourage the widening of the road and that was one of the leading factors behind why we incorporated because we've been hearing about threats of widening upper maak comi key into a four lane to make it easier and faster to get to West so that affects everyone I'd like to make a comment um you know um so uh we're definitely not in 1976 anymore I mean the town has changed um I can speak personally to the fact that um that I bike I mean you're a biker too I don't you probably don't come down this down so far to bike in this area but the bike the sidewalk is frag fragmented we have a lot of bikers in town as we get more people who come to our Resorts everybody has a bike rental you see these poor people out there on their matching bikes um and and um I I would say the reason you don't see accidents here is because anyone who is biking here is like on super high alert because they they're afraid they're going to be killed now what I'm hearing um the ti Mr Harris say is that he is willing to have a conversation about an improvement such as the one suggested by um Mr this lawyer sorry I'm forgetting your name and and I think that's something we should think about because the fact is there is a bike path here I mean there just is there's a bike path and and the abandonment of a road um is is is a pretty big step right and here we have an opportunity to improve in our Modern Age and it sounds like we're getting an agreement with the applicant like what a nice compromise um there there is there is absolutely like this would be a gift to everyone who thinks about getting on a bike or getting on there who's walking in our town to delineate that sidewalk and make it safer and I I don't think anyone could argue that that I mean you sit there and watch it I mean it is it's you're you're going to like we're going to someone's going to get killed there as you're watching watching and someone's coming in and you're trying to pull out like what what's there's no requirement to abandon this we could actually improve this make a singular entrance like the CVS or like Publix make create some safety I mean that's that's our that's our duty this this seems to me like we're sort of spot as you said spot zoning or spot doing stuff because maybe we should look at all Morada as a whole and again yeah the CVS does have one turn in and there's a bike path in there and then it stops but it's always stopped there and so just to put one more bike path just in front of this building what about the rest of all I love the idea of comprehensive planning and in the meantime I'd say We'll no keep our road while we're looking at that so so I would say yeah let's deny this and sure let's let's look at the whole bike path it doesn't mean that we have to give over the road in fact if we give over the road our comprehensive bike blast you know safety plan like well you know that's gone in this space so to me I'm just having a hard time with this abandoned Road thing because the abandoned road is right on the side correct is that no it's here it's it's right here we're we're abandoning this right in front right where the bike path like this is the the cars park in the front right there but the rideway you the bike pass is on is on the US one rideway that's where the bike pass is it's it's this is us one it's this is what we're saying okay go ahead and have it Elizabeth you know I'll say it I've been B I was born and raised here P when it was pouches cars parked all in front of there okay but it's no I mean it's busy the the the traffic has increased a thousandfold it's just a different time I I understand but you know there's all the bike path is on the US one is on the f. rways where the bike path is it is not an orange street am I right or wrong why why would we Mr Cole you're right why would we abandon that especially when this property owner has a ton of other places to park I'm just trying to understand why we would possibly as a condition that if he wanted to get his signed permit and get his permit he needed to have this am I right or wrong is that what I what I was told is that it was one of the conditions a requirement yeah Dan required that the requirement was to ask us if we would abandon the road it wasn't to abandon the road let's be very clear and I I don't know if that's been made clear the requirement was to come to the council and ask would you like to abandon the road we have the opportunity to say yes or no it's an opportunity to improve this space we I mean let's be clear the town has changed and we've said it over and over again and and there's just no question there is more traffic there are more people there are more bikers and so I'm not clear why we're um even entertaining the idea of giving away a road that would create that that we could utilize to create a safer space right here I don't understand why we would even think about it and with all due respect especially when the applicant is saying hey you want to beautify my space make this safer I mean he just said that and I don't think he's I mean he doesn't usually usually says what he means I've noticed I mean so what like that compromise to me is like yes let's take it how thrilling could where's the downside of that unless there's something youall know that I don't know okay I know something what is it let me Mark can I say one thing please okay I walked 162,000 steps last week three 300 162 384 steps 72.2 miles in the village okay a lot of it's I walked at night even I walk every day and I walk over all over the village I've been riding my bicycle all the way to Papa Joe's from my house that's AC Ross the street and I you know some days I go by there some days I go on the old road most of my walking is on the old road or it's on the bike path on the other side of the highway okay I'm very careful what I do if I go at night I have a vest on I have a safety vest with a red flashing light on the back and a white one on the front all right but man I mean I I'm just saying that that road has been there before Miss barley ever moved there before a lot of people ever moved down avocado or or Deon Avenue so why give it away it's always been there why give it away we've already given it away no we haven't given permanent permission to park there or we wouldn't be asked this question tonight I mean if we've already given it away we wouldn't be having this conversation would we well that's something we'd have to ask Dan about well he's not here he required it and we're going to you know be gentle about this because we have turned over a new Lea but the question we're asked is do we want to give this road away which means we have something to give away and what good is it accomplishing right there it's been when pouches had it they parked there when townsite when it burned and they rebuilt it it was still townsite they still parked right there on on Orange Street that that road was then when the Dollar Tree was there they still parked there until just now until Dan had made this part of of uh the sandal Factor's condition that we do something with this road do we have to do anything with it I don't know Jennifer the condition is to ask us if we want to abandon it if we say no we have an opportunity to create a safe space for our community to exit and enter a busy a busy retail space and the applicant is agreeing to it he has literally just got up here and said if you you guys want to make this safe and lovely I'm in I I I I think that's what I heard him say I I don't think he was being disingenuous why why would we say anything but okay thanks let's do it how much is it going to cost I mean we've had since July or September to to plan this out and nothing has happened I don't think there's any interest in it well actually I think we that's why we have our after action report and that never got on there I'm sorry for the tone but let me ask you Ty did I hear you say if we have the opportunity to create a safe and lovely entrance to my retail space I'd like to pursue that something to that effect I I've said and I'll say it again we will help and cooperate in anything that it all it does is improve the value of of sandal Factory notwithstanding we're going to go forward and either we're asking you to up or down the rotor band but I've already made that commitment my client has made that commitment that commitment doesn't go away U going forward but I'm asking just put me out of my misery let me know whether we're Banning it or not but it doesn't change the commitment well so let me ask you if we say no we don't want to abandon it but we want to make it beautiful and safe to enter your property is that something you could live with again we fulfilled the requirement yeah yeah I'm just saying because you know what we've been what we've noticed is there's Nuance in these kinds of issues it's not my concern is that you know I've heard some Rumblings that hey maybe we can change your parking my client has no desire to change the parking that's you know you you take away his front parking spaces there's going to be a fight and that's what I'm telling you because right now the only way to assure that you don't take away parking spaces because I'm kind of hearing that maybe that's the way you want to go is to get the road abandonment and then if there's anything that we can do that doesn't impact the front parking spaces to make it safer nicer prettier we're alling for it but we don't want to affect the priv the parking spaces know what I know is that um I will never send my kid to bike on that area because it's super dangerous and where there is some designation of of space to bike it's safe I just cannot understand why this group is not saying yeah we believe in keeping our pedestrians and our bikers safe I don't get it especially because we already own the stuff we already own the road I'll tell you something I can I if we were to do what you said it would have to be put out to bid we'd have to have a design we'd have to get construction money available where's it going to come from and I can just see van coming to the podium and saying why are you spending a quarter of a million dollars to fix up this private property owner's front of his property and enhancing his value you're using taxpayers money to benefit one person and make his property more value not one person is it it's every biker every kid I mean do you see people going I mean people cross us one my God and and so I I bet Van van wouldn't get up here and say you know you're improving safety in our community for pedestrians like like buddy who who traverses the highway we all want to improve that that's our duty it is I mean it is our duty to improve pedestrian safety have a problem with it's like one spot yeah that me too I me that's where I that's where I have issue it's one spot and yet when then you pull into dollar well not Dollar Tree whatever it is now you don't back out onto US1 where that comes from is beyond me come park in front of my building I have to back out in US1 but let me just say this I thank you but but we are spending money to spot fix how many feet and and I I'm hearing you ask a question and the answer to that is that this so what about in front of my building you to do that it's not reasonable is it but where we can fix it let's do it because you're pretending I think we're all pretending that we live in I don't know someplace with more space we we aren't we don't that's not where we live but where we have the opportunity to create safe spaces for children bikers and pedestrians why why wouldn't we do that I I I'm just 50 ft down the road you can get hit this it's so so we should not do anything I'm saying there should be a better overall plan okay CU it stops before it should have a better overall plan so so what that means is that you've got SEC more safety from Publix to the end of the Dollar Tree and then yeah you got to be alert when you go past tinies but they only serve two cars at four cars at a time I mean I I I'm I'm missing I'm missing the logic where you'd say yeah let's give away something keep it unsafe for our in our increasing pedestrian community that is what we're saying is absolutely I disagree with you because look you got the Bayside Gourmet there you got the dolphin thing there you got I mean what about in front of Trading Post we don't have a road in front of those we're talking about orange tree where we where we where we have a road here and they and we're being asked to give it away well it's been that way I I oh my go feel like it's been that way for years and look at Trading Post people park right in front of Trading Post like Sharon store trading post isn't asking us to give away a road so so let's do nothing let's deny it and I know let's do this let's let's just say no and and not do anything so no let's not give away the road and not don't do any improvements okay do I hear a motion at all Council I move we approve this okay do I hear a second do I hear a second I will not second it I ask for a second I will not second Henry won't second it I will not second this okay will you second it there has to be Sol okay I'm sorry I don't agree on this one section and that road is always been used hey let's give away this road and set a precedent for giving away more roads in the future because that's where this will go to find a we do the reality is if we abandon the road there will be no physical difference it's a paper abandonment it's we have given away the store so to speak by virtue of these parking lot approvals you know the that's actually not true mark it is just saw three pictures that show that as we give away the road then we have no more say but but when but if we keep the road we actually have agency over it let's let's be clear we we we get it's our property we can one minute our manager Mr Cole would like speak sure I just wanted to uh refocus on the fact that there's a bike plan that we paid to have done at one point and if we're looking for a comprehensive solution that provides uh safe alternatives for people of all interests and abilities to walk and bike that that particular plan and I'm just I reviewed it and and I walked that area as well um shows that the bike path and pedestrian path actually goes over to the old road and they may have at was it Kimberly horn that did that uh analysis they may have seen some of the things that I've heard each of you talking about in terms of longstanding conditions fragmented sidewalks and bikes and they they may have thought well a better approach would be to take it out of that environment because there is a lot of traffic I'm just saying there's an alternative out there that isn't you know one piece at a time and you just have to think about whether you want to uh fund that and make it a reality so there is a viable Safe Way for people to go consistent with the bike and ped plan that was done and I just wanted to make sure everyone's thinking that that's out there and I'm not suggesting one discussion is right or wrong uh just factually that's out there as something to consider pardon me we need to extend the meeting okay uh extend for five minutes all right uh so do I hear a second do I have a second there has to be a solution a better solution I'm sorry right yeah um your applicant gave you the solution yeah but he did the applicant gave it there is so can we figure out an agreement where we give them the road but yet that we hold them just like you're doing to me with my property what it is sort of the same because it's always been a parking lot but but here's the thing and and and I I would I would urge us to realize that we are in different times I mean a bike path a bike plan that suggests that you cross us one right there are you out of your mind it is like nobody nobody should cross us one on a foot on or a bike I mean it's we are now in 2024 cross the road here every meeting that I have I cross the road I cross the road at night to come to this park no one under the age of 13 should cross the road Highway since I grew up as a teenager to come right here when this was a restaurant and a fool and eat dinner and you could sleep you could lay down in the road in 2007 when this bike yes yes yes you can my father yes you could all right so do I hear a second or I'll yeah I'll make a second I I'll I'll second can he speak you can still discuss yeah but there's a second okay I have been in favor of beautification of the city since it started and the county as well if I had my way when you come into Alam marada there would be a change can't tell you what it would be might be trees it might be most anything but it would be noted that we are individual area area not like Ocean Reef not like Key West but a noted change when you enter this particular area it'll probably never happen but I would like to see it happen the Heritage trail goes for 100 100 miles it's broken in many many places I personally like to see if we start we start with this little spot and then we go to the next little spot and when I'm 106 we might get it accomplished so anyway I am not in favor of aband abandoning it I'm in favor of not giving anything away and uh that's the way I'm going to vote okay can we come up with some policy for this in the future because this can't be the only Road and I know you're dying to say something but it it it can't be the only Road and there sometimes things just don't make any sense and this just doesn't make sense to me I'm sorry I just think it's so if it doesn't make sense and we need a policy then not true if it doesn't make sense and we need a policy then then the correct way to handle this would be to deny the abandonment because we can always revisit we can always re abandon it abandon it the applicant you don't throw on a layer right at the last minute we do it all the time they're already they're already using using it there nothing will change for that person except that we retain the agency we're not putting any other conditions we just retain the agency of that road I mean and I would remind you of the amazing amount of work we did with Publix to make that safe and attractive I mean we're doing this as the town changes and improves a denial of this doesn't require them to do anything but what they're doing there's they don't have to do anything different at all it at all that's just the reality I mean there nothing in their life changes when we say we're denying this last comment we have breadcrumbed the applicant up to this point by making assurances and illusory representations that he can use this for his parking and if you'll just take the final step of abandoning the road applying for that uh you can you know you'll be okay and so I I think if we're going to do this if you're going to deny this we at least owe the courtesy to the applicant if we're going to just like a trail of breadcrumbs lean them up here and then shove them off the cliff we need to give him his money back CU he spent a lot of money to get here at at our request we our condition our requirement this is intensely unfair that we treat people like this he he for since 1976 we seen maybe even earlier it's been a private parking spot over a public road we have given away the farm and then you get to the get to the end of the process here and then we jerk the rug out from under him this is nuts I I don't understand that and and we're not I I don't understand why you say I mean did it drag on that's not that's not the fault of this Council I'm not sure why it hasn't been on our agenda if that's what you're implying we asked for six months to think about it and come up with a bike plan last time we came up with zip I'm sorry but oh that's the after Action Report sorry well I love your passion and I agree with most of everything that you said and if this road had not been included in permits before for parking and and required for I might join you in fact I think I would join you I I think I would but that's not this is a different thing I don't I I I guess I respectfully disag so uh Hey Marne there's a there's a motion in a second would you call the rooll please council member Mark Greg yes mayor bud yes council member Elizabeth Jolan no council member Henry Rosenthal no and vice mayor Sharon Mahoney goody yes motion passes 3 to two I move to a journ all right e e