e unit States the stands Nation indivisible andice all good evening ladies and gentlemen pursuing to njsa 10 col 4 the open public meeting Z notice of this duly and regularly scheduled meeting of the Jackson Township Zoning Board of adjustment has been published and posted in all appropriate locations please can we have roll call please Mr Hurley here Mr Stafford Smith here miss FR here Mr book here Mr Hudak here miss Parnes here Mr Heyman here miss Bradley here Mr Murphy do we have any resolutions this evening we do we have two resolutions this evening uh the first resolution being 20 24-7 uh that is the resolution of the Zoning Board of the township of Jackson granting variance relief for an inground pool 15x 30 X1 Cabana and 6ot solid fence in the front yard on property located at one Prince way uh eligible to vote on this resolution are Mr Hudak Miss Parnes Mr book Mr Stafford Smith and Miss Bradley roll call please thank you call now please Mr Stafford Smith yes Brian did you say Miss F no okay Mr Buck Mr Huda Miss pares Miss Bradley second resolution for the evening is resolution number 20248 that's a resolution of the Zoning Board of the township of Jackson appointing a replacement recording secretary effective January 1st 2024 for the remainder of the term July 1st 2023 to June 30th 2024 I'm eligible to vote on this particular resolution Mr Hurley Mr Safford Smith Miss frit Miss Bradley Mr Hudak Miss pares and Mr book Motion in a second please roll call please Mr Hurley yes Mr Stafford Smith yes Miss frit yes Mr book yes Mr Hudak Miss parnaz yes m B that concludes the resolutions for this evening least do we have any meetings uh minutes this evening no okay we're going to move forward to the p uh we have a voucher before us from the township of Jackson for the recording secretary for this evening for $175 I need a motion and a second to pay the voucher Please Mr Hurley yes Mr Stafford Smith yes Miss frit yes Mr book Mr Hudak Miss Parnes Miss Bradley Mr Murphy do we have any announcements this evening uh yes we have several um with regard to the agenda we have several applications that have been carried um application number two 68 Reserve amended site plan approval 239-8262 180 Faraday Avenue amended site plan 261-1463 that application has been carried to the March 20th 2024 meeting of the Jackson Township Zoning Board of adjustment uh no additional notice will be required and the applicant has wave time um then we have number five uh that is uh applicant BM OJ Inc uh preliminary final site plan 899 previously approved use variance 3316 uh block 6401 lot 22 and 21 that application has been withd drawn and was withdrawn on January 20th of 2024 uh according to the resolution will be prepared for the withdraw uh and then we have application number six which is Kahala to Brookwood 4 uh preliminary final site plan 880 with use variance 3441 block 6002 Lot 2 and three that application was withdrawn on January 19th of 2024 and accordingly a resolution will be prepared uh noting that is withdrawn Madame chair lady question um I'm just curious if these applications have been withdrawn as the entire application withdrawn including the variance has been granted I don't believe that the previous Pro variance would be withdrawn but this particular application subject it's it was subject to the m to the uh site plan if they're withdrawing the site plan I will have to double check on that Mr H I'm not sure of that thank you gentlemen thank you for raising your right hands do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions are common present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes yes thank you if you each please each please state your name and uh provide your position with the board uh Evan Hill Board engineer Ernie Peters board planner Jeffrey Pororo zoning officer thank you [Music] okay mam chair if I may articulate a resolution to enter executive session we'll need a member to uh vote to approve and adopt the resolution a second uh followed by a roll call uh whereas the zoning Board of the township of Jackson is subject to certain requirements of the open public meetings Act njsa 10 4 and whereas open public meetings Act njsa 10 4-12 provides that an executive session not open to the public may be held for certain specified purposes when authorized by resolution whereas it is necessary for the zoning Board of the township of Jackson to discuss in a in a session not open to the public matters relating to the item or items authorized by njsa 10 colon 4- B12 uh-12 B this evening those matters being uh an attorney client privileged discussion uh regarding Personnel matters um now therefore be resolved by the Zoning Board of the township of Jackson to enter executive session for discussion uh subject to attorney client privilege related to Personnel more specifically um strike that it is anticipated the deliberation conducted in closed session may be disclosed to the public upon determination that public interest will no longer be served by such confidentiality um as requested may I have a motion to approve and adopt the resolution second Mr Hurley yes Mr staff Smith yes Miss frit yes Mr bck yes Mr Hudak yes Miss Parnes yes Miss Bradley I promise this is not going to take very long I I really don't anticipate more than more than 10 to 15 minutes so moved Mr Hurley yes Mr Stafford Smith yes Miss FR yes Mr book yes Miss parz yes um Mr Hudak Mr Mr Hudak yes finish the Oh Mr Heyman yes Miss Bradley yes thank you uh just for the record uh I want to note that Mr Hudak had to leave um due to another engagement um so let the record reflect that as of uh 74 40 uh Mr Hudak is no longer in attendance um matters for discussion this evening Mr Murphy yes we do have at least one matter for discussion if not multiple um as the public and the board uh are aware uh I presume Mr ricardi uh who was a long serving uh member of the Jackson Township zoning Board of adjustment um as well as other um Public Service uh appointments in Jackson Township has moved out of town um so he did resigned from the zoning board uh effective January 26th of 2024 um that that resignation was accepted by Council um and so the zoning board is currently short one regular member um but also uh no longer has a vice chair as a result uh I would ask that the board consider nominating a new replacement Vice chair um for the remainder of this term running up until June 30th of 2024 I would nominate U Janine frit as the vice chair second roll call please wait now that we have a motion in a second uh from Miss frit Miss FR my question to you is do you um accept the nomination as Vice chair yes okay now you may roll call Mr Hurley yes Mr Stafford Smith yes does Miss FR Miss frit yes Mr book yes Mr Miss Bradley yes Miss Parnes yes Mr Hyman yes congratulations miss frish you have been named the vice chair of the zoning board congratulations you have to change chairs again Janine REM remain seated thank you for now thank you all right um we're not going to do that today uh however that does now raise a new issue um Janine was our secretary um and cannot serve as both Vice chair and secretary so I would ask that the board consider nominations for the position of board secretary I nominate Mr Stafford Smith second roll call please do you accept the nomination yes go ahead Mr Hurley yes Mr Stafford Smith yes Miss frit yes Mr book yes Miss Parnes yes Mr Heyman yes Miss Bradley yes congratulations Mr Stafford Smith you are the new secretary of and since the board is determined to make my night uh interesting uh Mr Mr Stafford Smith was our acting secretary and so I would ask the board to please consider nominations for the position of act acting secretary through the chair I'd like to nominate Miss pornes for acting secretary second M Parnes do you accept that nomination yes you may have a roll call Mr Hurley yes Mr Stafford Smith yes Miss FR yes Mr book yes Miss Parnes yes Mr Heyman yes Miss Bradley yes congratulations miss pares you are now the acting secretary okay um I promise that was it uh now that every now that everybody shifted around um okay uh I believe that was the last matter for discussion that I had this evening we wanted to replace the chair no we're not doing that that's exactly what she said okay we're going to move on to application number one danra Excavating LLC use variance 3458 Mr feffer the floor is yours thank you thank you good evening Madame chairperson members of the board Adam feffer attorney behalf of the applicant um so just on the onset I just wanted to make a couple of opening statements um the first one is first happy we actually are speaking on this application we we've been listed numerous times here and not full called to the board members we were either not heard because we were very late in the agenda or that there were not seven members um as we were seeking a use variance uh this application uh again we're seeking a use variance approval to permit uh storage and modification of shipping containers in the R1 residential Zone um I do have two witnesses that I plan on calling for for our application one being Mr bordon uh our planner the other being the owner and the applicant Mr rack unfortunately Mr rack on today's date uh for this meeting was a way he did tell me and I can't recall if it was a family vacation or business but he's a way out of state um so I and I did reach out to Mr Murphy just to indicate that um I would like to start the application this evening uh we'll put our planning testimony on um but Mr rack's testimony is is very important as he's the operator and we were seeking um a use variance um and and for his business it's critical uh for his testing testimony so this evening what I would like to do again is have Mr bordon Walk us through the application we'll put uh many of our proofs on uh again if if I think there were some members uh of the public who have questions and comments and they could all that you know for they could have the opportunity uh to make those comments and and cross-examine Mr Boron if needed um but I would ask that the board that reserve for a whenever the next meeting is we'll come back with the second uh with my second witness that will be Mr rack thank you Mr feffer so so for the benefit of the board and and for transparency purposes uh as Mr feffer did indicate he did contact me uh earlier today um to advise the situation uh with his applicant um I took a look at the upcoming agendas um as well as the number of times that this had been listed um and I know that there are um uh members of the public who have either uh repeated reped L appeared um and been uh told to go home um or uh have uh uh not appeared and and continued to follow up on the status of the application um for the purposes of appearing um and given the fact that this application has been listed so many times um and given the fact that uh we do have members of the public interested in the application um I did not believe that it would be in the best interest of either the board or the township uh or the or the public um to carry this application when we do have Mr Bard and available to begin the application ultimately it's the board's decision as to whether or not you will carry this application or whether you will uh permit um Mr uh feffer to reserve the right to call Mr rack at a later date um however taking a look at the agendas for the board um I did believe it was in the best interest of the board to at least get a portion of the testimony done this evening um considering the fact that we had four applications go off of this agenda um and if if we take a look at our upcoming agendas um you will see why I made that uh that administrative determination um so with that said Mr feffer is here with Mr bordon to present as I understand planning testimony at this particular time um I understand that the request is to uh Reserve uh to another meeting uh for the purposes of of finishing his application um which again I I don't I don't take any legal issue with um but uh again I'd like to remind the public uh if the public is here for this application um that if the board does go forward this evening uh and does uh take Mr Borden's testimony um as to uh planning issues uh the public comments as well as uh any questions uh concerns um opinions they will be limited to the scope of Mr boron's testimony Mr bordon as I understand it is not providing operational testimony I believe that is what Mr rack is is going to testify to um so this evening public comments will not be um um as to the operation itself but solely limited to the scope of Mr boron's testimony now Mr bordon gets into operations well then we'll have another discussion but however um I just want to uh advise the public that um that is the position that we're in out of fairness to all of you who continue to show up um I wanted to make sure that you had the opportunity to at least uh be heard uh in some fashion um and at least get this application moving um and now I'll leave it to the board to decide whether or not they want to go forward are there any objections from the board of moving forward not by me we have no problem moving forward so we'll we'll proceed so uh just from a a procedural perspective we will permit uh Mr feffer um and Mr bordon to begin the application um we will permit the request uh to reserve at the end of Mr boron's testimony um and uh we will reschedule uh following the testimony of Mr bordon and the public comments the meeting to a uh date certain so that no further notice will be required thank you so again good evening uh and thank you for for that uh for those courtesies um I did hand out and and I'm not sure I think Ian usually pre-marks his exhibits I did hand out one additional exhibit um uh so I'm not sure what the market uh but what what I handed out was is a resolution um from this board from 1988 uh this property uh has been a commercial been in commercial use since uh approximately 1955 um this board had there was a a violation issued back in in 1988 onorab about um and the that owner of the property came before the board for seeking an interpretation um of the use uh it's important because while the application this evening is for a use variance um I do believe that many of the exact uses were already approved based upon the pre-existing use and then the the resolution from 1988 uh confir confirming those uses um obviously there's been a difference of opinion between myself and and and the township uh which is why which has led us to make this application uh to either if you want to call either expand the uses uh or to add this use uh but when we get into the testimony I believe that it really Falls within uh the same definitions um and again the resolutions is not very lengthy um I asked the board they just review it but to point out that the test that the resolution indicates um that the property had been utilized continuously since 1955 for truck automotive and heavy heavy equipment repair Andor maintenance um it goes on to State uh as a result of the continuous nature of the use of the property predating an exist the existing Township zoning ordinance that the use of the property by the applicant for a Repair Garage uh and with a single family dwelling upon the property is a valid pre-existing non-conforming use as defined in the terms of of the uh Municipal land use act um and at the use described by the applicant at that time um and the applicants witnesses that it's a valid pre-existing non-conforming use so it's important because I I don't want the board to think that this applicant is coming in um on just a residential R1 property and saying hey here you go we're going to be doing a new a new commercial use it really has always been a commercial property uh and then based upon that well I'll let Mr bordon then go into the yes just a procedural question uh Mr bordon before I were you and how many exhibits do you have to introduce this evening just two so we'll mark the resolution as A3 uh for the purposes of the record um again the board can take judicial notice of this resolution uh based upon the fact that that it is a government document and a memorialized resolution resolution number being 41- 88 but that will be marked A3 for the purposes of the record thank you with that I would ask that Mr bordon be sworn in excuse me through the chair Mr feffer I I take your comments I get it as you read through the uh through the resolutions but no at least from my perspective as a board member the devil's going to be in the details when your client gets into the operational testimony I I suggest and I hope that is going to go into very specific detail on the history as to exactly what was done way back in 1955 all the way through 68 and 88 and relate and relate those so that those the repairing equipment and storage Parts is delineated quite specifically that's in the uh that's in the 68 resolution and in the 88 resolution you know they talk about uh truck automotive and heavy equipment repair and and how that's all going to compare and Contra with what he's currently doing there and what he intends to continue to do and I expect that's testimony we're going to hear from him when he yes I can provide that by also in addition I I apologize I did not make copies of it um but I can I will provide prior to the next meeting um in the 1988 for this uh that 198 application there was a lengthy statement of operations that brought you through the entire history of the property from onor about the 1955 through 1988 and then my client could take you from from 1988 uh more or less through where we are today that that was not included in the package that I received and I did not give you the background to the resolution I I gave you the I just went to the resolution I apologize I do have it is in I I have the copies of it uh I got it from Mr proro um I will provide it to your Council but there was an entire application that gave in it was actually several hundred Pages uh it has all the notices that went out um I actually am reviewing it I saw that my parents right the house I grew up in was the first uh house on the list is the 200 foot list so I have no problem we'll provide that I'll I'll email it over and then we will have that testimony as well thank you if we can have Mr bordon warning thank you for raising your right hand do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do if you would please state your name provide your affiliation and your credentials please certainly Ian bordon Lakewood New Jersey president of professional Design Services located in Lakewood um gra a professional a licensed professional planer state of New Jersey for many years I graduate of Ruckers University uh more than 40 years ago and been uh testified in front of this and many other boards throughout the state as a professional planner Mr bord and this owning board accepts your credential thank you so I will uh it's it's it's a little difficult from for my testimony because the intent was to have the owner testify first uh but so I know what you said Mr Murphy about operational but to to testify on my part I have to dig in I have to brush over that otherwise I have nothing to talk about which may be the best outcome of the night I I I presume that to be the case so I just it was a warning to the applicant uh but but to quickly go through just the the general surrounding property the property is lot 52 and BL 21441 it does contain 8.1 Acres it is on the north side of White Road what on the screen is the the top page of what I this is this the variant we provided a two page variance plan this is the first page so it's A1 the property is shaded again White Road is uh on the right side up and down North is to the uh top left and um the you can see at the flag lot uh with a long driveway in the stem and and then you have the rear port portion of the lot the surrounding properties uh are zoned all R1 uh certainly the properties to the west and the South they're developed with uh with residential houses as well as a bit to the north the larger property uh to the north Northeast is the Malla school um uh there's um as as noted by by Mr feffer uh and as denoted in the 1988 U uh letter interpretation uh resolution the site has been operated since 1955 as a repair uh garage uh that was verified in in the 88 resolution has been operated consistent consistently since then uh personally I'm familiar with Dan rack who's the applicant for more than 25 years we're not friends you know personally but rack Excavating uh who which Dan did and I assume still owns was an ex side excavation company that is well known in town they did a lot of work on many projects that we did so I have a lot of familiarity with his operations uh of of the repair garage and what he was doing on the site uh uh for many years I don't know how long he's owned it but but again I've the rack Excavating I know have been around for for quite a few years uh what is being uh requested uh is again as Mr fford explained uh a use to store and modify metal storage or shipping containers let me let me go to A2 if you don't mind Anthony oh boy that came out like absolute crap I'm sorry about that it's supposed to be a color uh the copies you have the board members you see it's a color aerial so I don't know what happened to that file so it makes it a little bit hard to to read we'll certainly make sure that it's it's a color before the next hearing because it's almost elgible um so what we have here is this this is the the the end of the property the larger portion of the property you can see the culdesac that was in front with the homes and along the west with the homes so so this large cleared area is the portion of the property that's been been occupied developed for more than uh 5050 years I think it's important to note that uh as part of this application we're not proposed any new development we're not proposing to do anything other than uh occupy and utilize the the existing develop portions of the property there is an existing home you'll note the 1988 V uh I can't want to say variance the or the resolution describes there being a single family home that was pre-existing and was permitted to remain that's on the the Eastern portion and then next to that is the Repair Garage where I'm pointing right now um and again that was also referenced in the 88 resolution and and remains in operation today I think uh important to note that that to the to the Northwest and East there is existing Forest that that will propose to remain undisturbed again we're not proposing any development as part of this application that area to the north has a width of approximately 130 ft to the West is 25 and to the South it's uh uh 20 ft so th those forested areas would remain UND undisturbed uh the property is located in the R1 Zone uh the use is commercial obviously that's not permitted in the R1 Zone we do have the use that's been uh pre-existing non-conforming and and and and verified by this 88 resolution uh I I think it's it's necessary to touch in into the operations just a little bit um again I understand that Dan will give testimony but uh I had I had extensive conversations with Dan as preparing for this months and months ago so I have my notes from my my discussions with him um but basically the the storage container use is they acquire the storage containers from shipping companies they're they're used obviously um and and what they propose to do is to rent them sell them and they also modify them and when they modif ify them they can make them into an office trailer even a I've seen where they do a mobile uh snack like a almost a food truck type thing um um and and they the modifications are done much in the same fashion as they perform the auto repair it's much of the same uh it's the same people the same equipment uh again the same the same portions of the property that they currently use for Truck and Auto repair uh there is which is impossible you can see it on the the copy I gave the board members it's much more legible it's it's absolutely impossible to see on the exhibit on the the screen but if you look at your your 11 by 17 I I hand it out there's there's shipping containers evident in the aerial that are stored uh TP typically on the western uh portion of the the property this area is dat March of 203 I think uh since we're going to come back again we'll update the aerial as well the Aerials are available through this this service that we have they they they fly at about every two or three months so I I would expect I mean I don't think it'll show anything differently but we'll make sure we update that and make sure that the digital file I've never seen a color digital file come out that washed out black and white so I have no idea what happened there um but um again Dan will will explain this but what they explain to me is that they basically get two two two two or so deliveries a day coming or going and that what you see on the map as being stacked containers are stacked no more than twoo high which is typically about 20 ft each container is about 10 ft tall so any any of the storage of the containers as they are renting selling or modifying them is is a maximum of two containers High uh I think it's important to to get Dan's testimony on the record to really put forth the to emphasize the planning testimony because obviously it's hard to argue no impact unless you have the absolute operational testimony uh but I I would say that uh um I mean I I'll get into I don't know if I should do the enhanced purposes of zoning now or or or after I probably should do it after uh Dan testifies but I I think I just want to lay obviously in the case of this this use we're dealing with the with the commercial use in residential Zone the medk supplies we have to provide we have to and it's not a inherently beneficial use obviously so we have to uh show that the uh use promotes the general welfare because the site is particularly suitable um and in this case uh and I'll and I'll segue this into the enhanced purposes of zoning when once Dan gives his testimony but the uh I think as I had said a couple of key points that will factor into that and and that is that the the this activity only utilizes the areas previously Disturbed on the site and and currently used for the the lawful commercial or indust whatever you uh Auto or truck repair activities um and that includes within the existing garage um uh there is no activities other than the storage and and uh of these containers and the modification as I said they're stacked no more than two containers high and that we have no uh uh no proposed development on the site no disturbance of any previously undisturbed properties what I skipped over I guess in my discussion I should have but just catch up is that the site does not have any environmental constraints there are no Wetlands no Wetland buffers no flood Hazard areas no repairing offers so I I think that's about Adam all I can testify to until Dan testifies and then I'll segue that into the purposes of zoning uh and and complete the planning aspects of it so I suppose it's also your intent to recall Mr bordon as well yes I'm not going I'm not going anywhere God willing fair enough okay um obviously um we can open up to the board any questions for Mr bordon Mr Hurley Mr bordon or Mr feffer um can you tell me exactly what's being applied here for is it a D1 or is it a D2 if it is a D2 which portion is the D2 and which if it is a D1 which portion is the D1 right I think it would be a D1 for the uh for the shipping container use particularly so for storage and maintenance yes is the D1 yes is there any D2 I don't believe so no so you're not seeking a D2 at all it's just a D1 for the storage and the maintenance yes well would not the the the addition of the storage and maintenance be an expansion of the previous use I see I'm sorry yeah let me let me let me revisit that I was reading the wrong part of my notes Let me let me revisit that and that's quite possible we'll be seeking a a D2 as well yeah I'm sorry you you're going to revisit that next time not tonight so it it it's a conversation that that I've had I discussed and and and Mr Peter's letter raised it uh and actually made me scratch my head for a moment because it the 88 resolution right was not granting a use variance it was granting a pre-existing non-conforming use so the question it it falls in a little bit of a gray area right so we are seeking the argument is to expand the uses right because the other uses are previously a Col approved uh however they got them either pre-existing or uh obviously there wasn't uh use variant that was actually granted um so it is an expansion per se however if no use variance was ever granted how are we expanding that so there was it was raised in the letter and is something that we're going to have to testify to um an abundance of caution again we're going to give the testimony for a new use variance because again the the Excavating business is not in question that's not uh the issue it's the addition of the of the um of the storage containers the only reason I rais it is the the resolution that was adopted in 88 I think was 88 that says that the cannot be expanded right unless it's in accordance with the municipal annus law which means that's why you're here good right uh but it seems to me that a new use creates a problem if there's an expansion expansion of a non-conforming use it becomes a different standard and so I just want to make it clear what you're seeking is a D1 now we'll clarify that at our next occur right and along with the testimony that you'll hear from Mr rack I believe even though we're now adding the storage container that it falls really within the same types of work that were in that 88 resolution which again all relates back to operator testimony um but yes it is it is a a area that needs to be addressed and there definitely needs to be testimony on well I I noticed that Mr rack I know I know he's coming um acquired title forget the date it was either in the 90s or the early 20s but anyway uh I would like to hear testimony as Mr book had indicated I'd like to hear testimony as to what of what that prior use was I read I read the the two resolutions one that was earlier than the 88 which denied the use that was requested and then there was a subsequent application 884 a interpretation which allowed the um the repairs Automotive repairs and a single family home I went I drove and looked at that property I saw the garage it looks like a recent garage three three bays and a residence but um are there other structures I couldn't tell from I didn't go back to look at it I just stopped at the entrance um but I couldn't tell from the aerial as to whether or not there are other structures here Mr bordon you visited it place I presume is there is there something more than a single family residence is there single more in a in a form of a structure than the three card garage no other than possibly a small shed or so right it the the the it you are accurate and that's the house and the the garage okay thank you any additional questions from Mr bordon Evan and Ernie will you be holding your questions so did you want to ask any questions tonight okay all right Mr feffer would you like to have any statement before I open it to the public you can open to the public okay thank you all right I'm going to open this to the public anybody wishing to come forward please do so good evening um my name is scho Xin I'm just GNA ask you I got to swear you in oh okay please raise your right hand thank you very much do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but truth yes sir thank you very much if you would please state your name spell your last and provide your address it's Schmo shmu L last name is Xin e c k s t i n the address is eight Lind the drive so I am on the west side of that property um there's a lot more to this application that not really being discussed over here I've been dealing with this already for over two years um when I moved in there 5 years ago I had a nice quiet backyard um there was nothing going on in the property behind me and we were so thankful that we had this beautiful backyard with nothing behind us um one day there was a uh I heard a tractor back there and I went back there to see who was there and it was a guy he was a landscaping company who was uh mulching some stuff and he said yeah he's using the property for about two months he's going to be mulching some stuff but if it bothers you know if any noise anything he'll shut it down whatever and he disappeared after like a month and never heard another thing and then one day two years ago in December suddenly I see a shipping container in the backyard okay that's strange the next day there were five more now the applicant is making this sound like this little benign thing a couple shipping containers I happen to have some pictures that I took today um there are hundreds of containers back there my backyard I don't know if that capacity around uh if you you have to show them to the uh applicant this is the view this is the view for my backyard just one second uh can you just represent that you took these pictures your these pictures I have them on my phone and they're taken today that was Tak today they're from your backyard towards towards the property inquest yes I have no objection to the to them being presented thank you they are stacked just one sec one sec there's procedure issues here how many photographs do you have um one two three I'll give three four three is good and you took same question you took all the pictures they were all taken by you they're all from your property facing the property question no objections to the thank you very much uh those three photographs will be marked 0 one for the purposes of the record okay you making sorry I just wanted need to get that done not a problem I've never done this before um they are stacked too high um which means that they're 22 feet high um it's five across straight across my whole property line I believe it's right up against my property line um I I haven't seen any site map done on this really any site work done that shows that it's not um five uh there are four deep which means that just against my property there are 40 containers and then I you know from the side you could see that there's many many more behind that so there must be hundreds of containers I haven't gone into the property to confirm that but there are hundreds of containers there this is not just a little commercial property that they're trying to do this is an industrial company it's industrial work converting these so you hear tractors moving these things around all day and converting these things into usable shipping usable houses or offices or whatever else they're using them for um I know that in the beginning I had I called Mr bapo uh in December of what was that 2022 uh 2021 two two years and two months ago I can't add anymore um and he even came down to my property looked at it as soon as he saw that he said no way that that could stand over here I was in front of the township Council um I believe it was in February or March um of that year and I addressed the council about this asked if there's anything we could do um everybody on the council the mayor was there that night also said there's absolutely no way this could go on the lawyer said we just got to keep finding them I know that they had a stop work work order um which never stopped anybody they kept working right through it um they did have one court date uh where they got a $250 fine and that was the only thing that was done about this in the last two and a half years um I know we now let to talk about the operations part of this um I don't believe that this property has been continuously used since then as I said when I moved in it was AC quied property um I don't believe that Mr rack is really the owner of this company this is a company called Chris container uh which is a company that's been around for many years before this they moved into this property which was owned by rack and possibly he bought a share in the company that's what I believe but this company has been around long before him uh long before they moved in here and he was not an owner of the company at that point um they needed a property that they could move in hundreds of containers and nobody would say anything and they found a nice quiet property and moved the stuff in um you know the the amount of noise and traffic and trucks that we have going it's not two trucks a day there are 15 trucks a day coming in there and they want to do this from 7 in the morning this is going right behind people's houses on a little that little driveway that they have is a dirt driveway it's wide enough exactly to carry one truck which means that those trucks are bouncing up and down going up this driveway right behind all of our houses at 7:00 in the morning 6 days a week and it's they can't even find that driveway they Park on White Road idling in front of everybody's houses you know trying to find where the road is that they're supposed to go into and it's you know the quality of life the everything about this is wrong I think I'll leave it at that and I don't know if anybody wants to see these pictures okay can we pass Mr Epstein please don't go away yet sure no problem mam chair lady questions of Mr Epstein yes please okay Mr Epstein it was part of your your statement that I I didn't get all of you had mentioned something about another company that was there before Mr rack owned the property uh can you can you repeat that because not before Mr rack Mr rack owned the property um it seems that he was subleasing it up one point to a landscaping company if I remember correctly maybe it was Dave's land Landscaping can can you give me an estimate of when that occurred this was it was before December of 2021 uh so it was it was probably uh I would probably say March April of of of 21 is probably when I saw it somewhere around then you also had mentioned something about um you moved in what five or six years ago 5 years ago 5 years ago can you describe the property for me 5 years ago it's a 1acre property not not yours oh their property their prop yeah what what it look like then it was just an empty lot you know maybe on the far end of the lot there was a there was a building there I don't think I ever saw anybody go in or out and never heard a sound out of that place um you did you did mention that you saw these containers coming up can you tell me when that started that was in December of 21 okay um that's all I have thank you very much can I add one more thing that I that I forgot I I I I believe also that there were many trees that were cleared out in this property to make room for this that were not the trees were there before and trees were cleared out to make room for um for some of these containers and I would love to see the permit for that and do you know when that took place sir when the trees were removed it was I mean I I saw tractors there clearing the property it was also in December I saw them clearing property there um I know I've heard from other neighbors that there were more trees that were taken down also so you're saying de I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you but you're saying December of 2020 yeah when they that's when they were clearing the property out making it usable for what they needed you know there were mounds of dirt and things in the middle of the property that had to be leveled out and to make it possible to put these containers there but just to reiterate what Mr Hurley said so for the first three years you were living in your home you didn't see any of this there was none of this noise other than that landscaper who came correct correct it was nice quiet property all right thank you anyone else have any additional questions I do um sir when you took these pictures how far were you did you like zoom in or were you just standing there and just took mean I walk to the edge of my property through I I do have trees in the back which in the middle of the winter there's no leaves on it during the summer I don't really see the containers during six months of the winter it's totally open so I just walked to the edge of my property and took the you know took the picture thank you yes is it normally two containers one on top of each other or there it's been there it's been there since since day one it's been to is there a third one no I've never seen a third one at least not lining my property I don't know what's going on inside thank you thank you anyone else wishing to come forward good evening evening if you would please raise your right hand do you solemnly swear or affirm that testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing about the truth I do thank you very much if you would please state your name spell your last and provide your address please my name is yok Herz the last name is spelled h TZ and my address is one that uh Mr feffer might recognize it's 103 bellw Avenue Jackson New [Music] Jersey okay um if I may begin the reason why Mr feffer will I believe um recognize that addresses I believe that's the childhood home that he grew up in that uh and I've moved there two and a half years ago so he may be familiar you know we're going back over here to 195 5 and going down memory lane 1988 um so I'm sure you've all noticed that there's been a little bit of uh growth since then I'm sure you know back in the days in 1955 or 1988 um there wasn't such a population and I remember I I was born in Lakewood and I grew up and cross street was a horse farm I used to go horseback riding there um I don't know if you've ever recently gone down cross street um to traffic nightmare a lot of wonderful things going on there but there's a price to pay so the traffic has gotten a lot a lot worse in Lakewood as we all know um now Mr feffer is um attempting to to um present that it's pretty much the same as what has been going on um I find that difficult to believe cause not just to believe if they're fixing a truck Mr F I ask you um how many times a day would you think there was a Ingress and out outg growing into that very small um driveway with the with that operation being run it's a question for the operator and he'll be here and I'm not under no no no I'm asking not what's operational now you going have a question for the operator is here you can make a statement about the application uh but as far as my opinion about something happening that's that's not a for a discussion I'm saying you were there as a child no no I I I do concur with Mr feffer on this um that's a question for the operator and again no operational testimonies been presented tonight that would have to wait for when Mr rack is here okay Mr Mr feffer is not a witness he's just the applicant's attorney perfect thank you um so my point is that there are about 22 trucks and let me just describe for you what happened um I do have video and I would like to ask if next time I would have a chance to present the video is that a possibility if I submit it before so what would I need to do to make sure that it's done properly contact okay thank you so I do have some video now the truck drivers they come and sometimes there's a truck going out sometimes there's a truck coming in they park on the side of White Road they want to help the guy get out so they stop the traffic there I've called the police numerous times and they need to go stop the traffic in both ways this could be at 9:00 9:30 lots of people take a carpool to school and they stopped the traffic to get out now it's kind of difficult to maneuver I'm going to guess it's maybe 15 16 ft wide it's a little dirt road I mean you could look at it you can see you can see that little strip that's barely visible if you pull up the other one could you please pull up the other one please the previous slide please I think he's referring to A1 exactly so you can see how very thin that is um it's between two Residential Properties and just to State we are my house is 103 bellie it's that's the north side I'm on the south side of White Street the corner so the trucks pull over stop White Road sometimes they have to swing widely into the next oncoming Lane to be able to maneuver into that very thin driveway they sometimes don't get it on the first time I've had times that they've knocked down my pushes when they're backing up um so it's a safety hazard it's a nuisance White Road is getting busier and busier they're going to be making a light and things on the corner I don't think really honestly my the themed board I don't think it's a question of operational testimony I think shipping containers coming in and out 22 trucks I think it's very clear that that has no similarity to fixing some trucks where there's no in and no out so to say it's the same people working is really missing the point we're talking about a substantial difference and a serious um Quality of Life issues for myself and the people around and all the people that use White Street to get the cross and to go about their daily business um that's really my only point that I want to make tonight that it's in no way similar I did hear that there was just from what was mentioned tonight there was a denial to something prior to 1988 and an expansion I believe and I think it definitely needs a variance and um you know we've been served well by the Jackson nship the zoning board we put a lot of faith in our elected officials and their job is and they've done it admirably to maintain the reason why zoning laws are there to you know make sure that we preserve and it's not the wild west um other townships maybe I've let it go but we all move to Jackson because we wanted something better and we expect it and we're confident that you'll all do the right thing in preserving the Integrity of our neighborhood thank you very much thank you for coming forward sir are there any question any questions for this I have a question but none of Mr Herz since he he's pointed out this uh exhibit can can somebody tell me what that is what is it thank it's not part of the display it's behind that it's projected onto that I'm sorry what is it it's a cover okay thank you look at that wall see they for whatever reason tonight it doesn't on the same wall that big wall see the outlet C the same over there but a ref a ref see there's one here one here one here it's the same I thought I was going to have to call my granddaughter was respectfully I agree they are for some reason a lot more pronounced this evening usually you don't see them right you don't see them yeah maybe that's why when you said that I was like what plug and then I realized cuz the one really is a plug I was like oh wow so thank you so much for coming forward so thank you thank you thank you for taking the time to listen anyone else wishing to come forward good evening good evening if you would please raise your right hand do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes thank you very much if you would please state your name spell your last and provide your address Eli e last name Newman Neu M A Ann address 6 Kevin in court Jackson thank you um I'm going to reiterate quite a bit of what the the prior two people stated um this application is very much uh we'll call it bending the truth for lack of a better term um I've been living here since um August of 2014 there was no activity on that site whatsoever um not even the um Landscaping that Mr rexin spoke about uh quiet completely empty until my first record of it um with multiple emails to Mr Boro to Mr Murphy as well um with um multiple video uh proofs um was I believe in it was before December of 2020 most definitely the video proof I started taking was in April of 2022 and continuing up until as most recently at September about all the traffic this was eloquently stated the the trucks driving in and out um it's Etc um so give or take you know I'll go August 2021 was when anything first started happening uh my backyard is separated by um give or take 200 ft of property line however um um Mr fer had stated and and the engineer had stated that there's a uh a house back there I'm going to uh call their Bluff um there hasn't been anybody living on that property in many years it's locked all day day um I apologize it's locked all night I don't believe anybody can get in and out when there's a a chaining fence going across the driveway um it's an office um being used as an office by the people um who who utilize the site for it um they're going on a um you know quote unquote small scale Automotive um self-repair which is what I believe was the 1988 approval was for a homeowner himself to work on his own automobil definitely not in that three car garage like he had stated which is definitely new um we are obviously in an R1 Zone um it's a full-fledged industrial um process going on there um it's it's uh like one of the other applications that said as well it is subleased by a company called Christ container um Dan Rak actually purchased the property from his father I believe it's public knowledge um I believe it was in 2021 transfer of title and he sued to CH container I've actually purchased containers from Christ container for my business I have receipts from them going back to 2020 when they were not there um I pulled it up just before actually 2021 March of 2021 this company that is currently operating there was actually at 817 Harrington Court in Point Pleasant was their mailing address uh they were definitely not manufacturing these shipping containers on that property when I purchased my two shipping containers which I still own from them um I haven't seen a site plan for this property whatsoever um they're requesting to go from a quote unquote house with um working on my uh 1968 Dodge Charger to uh storing and modifying shipping containers which what they do is actually they cut doors in it I've got a door cut in mine I know people get refrigerated containers um roll ups roll Downs um you know there hasn't been a site plan um submitted with this um my wife actually just gave birth to twins in uh October October 16th to be exact was the date of their birth October I'm going to say October 8th give or take let's say I was in my backyard over the holiday of sukot um and I counted two days back to back I have a pool um 22 deliveries each day in and out over the span of two and a half hours and that's just the days that I was home during the day myself I'm not home I work all day so I'm not usually home obviously the traffic um I've got like I said video video documentation they come up and down Kevin Court u-turns um stopping starting I've seen four trucks not just one two or three um the trees were substantially cleared um when I moved in there there was I would say you know I'm not going to I'm not going to try to bend the truth but probably an acre worth of trees were cleared give or take it's an 8 acre property um there actually is a stream that goes straight across from uh it would be between three Kevin and five Kevin crosses between six and four Kevin which is my property and go straight back I don't believe a stream just suddenly stops uh it goes somewhere underneath that driveway um it is Jackson toown jabon it's a storm water or flood water or stream not TR you classify it's definitely there um has there has there been an EPA report done on the property um you know Automotive fuels hydraulic fluid um welding definitely welding cutting um you name it it's it's being done back there again you know we're not getting into the quote unquote operation um they they did broach the operations a little bit um you know like Mr Xin had also said they got one fine of $250 I I'm involved currently in a different township with a different zoning issue they've made me H have three quar appearances so far um they found me four times and I'm actually in a commercially zoned area and I'm trying to do something quasi C commercially zoned this is going for a IND industrial not a commercial this is an industrial application whether they're stating that or not in a residential area um with quite a few um you know issues missing like I stated it's not a house it's an office building uh three Bay garage that wasn't there um Etc you know there there're keeps they're bringing up the 1950 um approvals and and going on to the 1988 approval the the the residential area was put up in I believe 1983 um in 1950 the guy was probably working on his Model T still he wasn't working on his uh 40ft shipping container putting in rollup doors and refrigeration and installation and skylights um you know they're they're trying to stuff through a 30-year-old variant into 2024 for for for lack of a better term um that's really all thank you thank you sir for coming forward any questions thank you you're welcome any anyone else wishing to come forward good evening thank you for raising your right hand do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes thank you very much if you would please as you know by now state your name spell your last and provide your addresser last name t i c h r my address is 148 White Road Jackson New Jersey thank you so my property is on the corner of White Road and Kevin's on Kevin's Court we have no sidewalks our kids play on the streets like every kid should be able to play um and being that that driveway is so small like you heard um that we have approximately I would say at least five trucks a day because they use their GPS and the properties behind it takes us it takes the trucks up our block and there's just with 53 footer trucks there's a very huge blind spot and it just doesn't belong in our neighborhood and I don't want to say what God forbid could happen with kids playing on the very small kids playing on the street and 53 Footers just coming up and down your block all day that's all I want to say thank you so much for coming forward any questions thank you anyone else wishing to come forward good evening thank you for raising your right hand do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I do thank you very much if you would please state your name spell your last and provide your address my name is Eli gobam uh last name is g b m and I live at 14 Kevin Court thank you okay so my property is um in the middle of the circle uh back to back with that driveway so I have a very good view of all the trucks um going up and down before I start I wanted to say two things um number one is you guys know this is not the first time that this uh hearing was scheduled this is probably the sixth I lost count already um I work for a company that's actually based out of Brooklyn um and I travel to Brooklyn once a week typically my day to travel is Wednesday this is already my sixth or seventh time that I rescheduled my day um because this is an important issue to me and my family that's number one number two I want to also mention I think it's important to mention um I have no relationship really with Dan Rack or any of the you know I'm neighbors to his property but I don't really have any relationship I certainly have nothing against him personally as a matter of fact I probably understand what he's trying to do he's got a business to run he wants to make money I get it that being said um I have a family um we have a life to live and we want a certain um quality of life and uh protections that we uh expect and deserve I guess um I will say that when they originally started um I I moved into this uh area about 7 years ago a little over seven years ago in January um when I moved in um Dan rack was still operating an excavating company I don't know was danra or there was a rack excavating company that seemed to still be operating uh you maybe saw one or two trucks a week going in and out probably less than that but being generous I would say it's it was a couple trucks a week going in and out there was very very little activity over time maybe suble to uh like somebody mentioned Dave's Landscaping There Was You know here and there you did see some trucks but the activity was very very minimal um and and you know nobody's looking to make a big deal nobody's you know nobody was going to bring that up um when this uh operation started I don't have the exact timeline like everybody else but uh uh it's it's been going on for a while when it first started um before there were any uh uh stop orders or anything like that there were tens of trucks going every single day um I have six children my oldest is not is not yet 10 years old they play in the street they uh they get dropped off on the corner when the when the bus drops them off there are no sidewalks on Kevin Court you have these big trucks driving down the driving down the street I mean you know tens of trucks daily driving through a residential area with tens and tens of kids um you know forget about kids adults as well you know I was driving up the block tonight when I came home from work at 6:30 and uh it's dark there was a a kid walking down the street you can't see him it's uh you know it's not rocket science um as far as you know as far as operational I don't really want to talk about operational I understand we shouldn't be talking about that but from what uh the what the attorney and uh testimony is trying to establish that uh this use current use has any relationship to what was previously um from my own observation very blatantly it's absolutely uh unrelated I mean you're talking about literally tens of industrial trucks and like someone said it's operating a regular industrial business in the middle of a residential neighborhood I think it's uh very clear um to any outside Observer that the this application is only to the benefit of the um applicant um and has no offers no benefit or any advantage to anybody else um affected and for that I I'll leave it at that for now any questions thank you so much for coming forward anyone else wishing to come forward hi good evening good evening thank thank you for raising your right hand do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes thank you very much if you would please lower that microphone thank you yeah and then if you would please state your name spell your last and provide your address my name is Shandy burwitz b r k o v i TS and I live at 145 White Road um so I live like diagonal from the driveway of Christ shipping um company um I lived here for exactly seven uh 8 years and it's been quiet we really enjoyed living here I actually have a picture on my phone from the beginning of April of 2022 that's when everything started and we have trucks parked right in front of our house waiting to figure out where to go um how to get in and then you have trucks stopping like right next to them to see see how to get in to help them cuz they're pulling out and they're pulling in um and it's basically impossible for a large truck to be able to just pull in they would have to like go into the opposite lane to be able to go in and wait for the other truck to come in um and it feels a little bit unsafe especially happening in rush hour times that there are many cars and children waiting for buses that's what I have to say any questions thank you so much for coming forward good evening thank you for raising your right hand do you Solly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do if you would please keep your voice voice up yes thank you very much please state your name spell your last and provide your address Civ Herz hrtz 103 B Avenue I enjoy my quiet neighborhood and I would want to be like that so please keep it that way anyone else wishing to come forward good evening thank you for raising your right hand do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing about the truth I do thank you if you would please state your name spell your last and provide your address name is shmu Tres name is shmu Tres last name t SS address 17 Jenny Lane Jackson I just like to add one point that I don't think anyone mentioned besides for the traffic there's also um I live sort of almost right behind the property there's a tremendous amount of noise throughout the day of trucks and tractors coming and going um a lot of banging and um it's just very disturbing out today thank you for coming forward anyone else wishing to come forward sir I'm sorry we can only give each person one time to come up I apologize you will be able to speak sir you will be able to speak at the next when they do come back you will have that opportunity thank you seeing no one else come forward I'm going to go ahead and close public session Mr feffer any comments no we we alloud and clear the comments from the neighbors uh like I said the the substantial testimonies really needed from Mr rack um will be here at the next meeting um and I guess with that I guess we would just ask what the date will be and we will proceed making me work mam chle just one question for Mr feffer how many more witnesses do you intend to call this time I don't intend calling anyone other than Mr bordon again to confirm the the planning testimony and Mr rack and Mr rack so Mr rack will be here for the operations Mr bordon will testify you know I guess supplement his plan testim his testimony based on the test based on a testimony of Mr R correct yeah I I believe that's all the testimony yes for the chair um just a I want to some clarification on that Mr rack is the property owner correct yes okay okay um Chris is it true that Chris does Chris container operate out of this site again I believe that so I believe Mr re also operates his business on the site is there going to be any representatives from Chris container made available as well if be we could have a representative he and actually uh someone from Chris container was here at at least one of the other hearings that we were I think it' be advisable because most of the comments I've heard from the public were container related not rack related I will make sure to I'll I'll request that we have a representative of them as well so Mr Hurley there will be maybe possibly one additional witness I actually have a question for Mr feffer in just looking at this picture it's just so alarming to me is there any chance that one of these containers can fall over because I mean this just looks like an attractive nuisance it's colorful it's fun there's bars like if I was younger I'd want to climb up it honestly I just feel like if somebody climbs up one of these can one of these topple over because they're not even leveled they're not even on top of each other there's also a lot of space in between them where somebody can a kid can just walk right through an adult can walk right through like it's just really unnerving to me because I feel like maybe two kid like if they start climb somebody starts climbing can these can fall over onto somebody there's no fence or anything like it's to me this is like an immediate safety concern um I will relay that message food for uh Food For Thought for the operational testimony um so Mr feffer just looking at the upcoming agendas um I I have March 20th um and really April 17th all the meetings before that are are are well full um so I don't know what works better for you and and Mr Mr bordon may be away in the March meeting so if we could take the April 17th meeting very good um okay where did my agenda go okay application number one Dan Rak excav Excavating LLC use variance 3458 block 21401 lot 52 uh this application will be carried for further testimony to April to the April 17th 2024 meeting of the Jackson Township Zoning Board of adjustment no further notice shall be required by the applicant and the applicant waves time I presume thank you um um so we'll see you on April 17th thank you e next application is application number four SSP enterprising doing business as Signs by Tomorrow 711 signs use variance 3495 thank you madam chairwoman Madam chairwoman members of the board Michael molinsky of fox rch child LLP on behalf of the applicant SSP Enterprises comma Inc doing business as Signs by Tomorrow we're here this evening for a very simple application we're here for a C2 variants to allow two LED fuel price signs on our gas canopy that will be uh 3 ft wide and 8 ft long 24 square feet total uh this is at lot 3.01 of block 3000 1.01 also known as 515 Mammoth Road Unit 140 we are seeking tonight uh there's one variance that well before we get started let me address one uh issue regarding notice uh in our notice we referen that this property is in the HC Highway commercial Zone the property is actually in the highway commercial mixed use zoning District District uh we feel in accordance with njsa 40 55 d-11 that the contents of our notice even though it referenced the wrong zoning district is sufficient for the board to hear this application this evening it sets forth the date of the application the time and place of the hearing the nature of the application identifies the property identifies the location and time that people could review any of the submissions and documents that were available so because we meet the uh content requirements of njsa 4055 d-11 uh we feel that this board has jurisdiction to move forward tonight and hear this uh sign variance application um so just just for a moment this issue was brought to my attention by um I guess it was your associate attorney last week yes Amanda yes and um I I did discuss this with her um I have reviewed the notice um and it was represented to me that uh the 200 foot list that uh certified 200 foot list that you received was for the correct property and it was mailed to the correct uh 200 foot addresses um in my opinion um the uh mistake as to the zoning District itself um does not uh invalidate the notice um under the municipal land use law because again the the content of the notice um and the uh requested variances uh and the time place and uh date uh location all that stuff for the hearing um was all included in the notice accordingly it's my my uh position that the board uh can accept jurisdiction uh despite the uh incorrect Zone being referenced in the notice as all of the other information was correct any problem with hearing this board we can move forward thank you very much uh we are here tonight uh asking for a variance from section [Music] a variance from section 244-2796 we're only adding the two that I explained earlier which is the LED and also from section 244-2796 point1 squ ft where 80 Square ft is the maximum permitted currently existing at this pad size 138.4 Square ft of wall mounted sign area we're only adding the 48 squ ft I told you from the uh two LED signs we're adding I have two witnesses with me this evening I plan on only calling one unless there's specific questions regarding the installation of the sign uh my one witness is Kevin Dixon who's a professional engineer professional planner from Dixon and Associates engineering uh if you'd like to swear him in at this time absolutely thank you for raising your right hand you solemly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing about the truth I do if you would please state your name provide your affiliation and your credentials please certainly my name is Kevin Dixon dxo n uh I am the managing member of Dixon Associates engineering LLC uh my company was founded in 1984 and we provide land uh planning and Engineering Services for site development clients as well as Municipal and traffic engineering for municipal and Municipal clients and public agencies many of which we have worked for uh throughout the last 40 years including Township engineer Township planner uh planning board engineer planning board planner for various boards Galloway Township Hamilton Township in Atlanta County Lynwood city of Lynwood uh town of Hamilton Washington Township Burlington County uh so we've I've provided testimony for engineering and planning in front of uh many boards all right this so I didn't want to interrupt you I'm sorry I get it for you listen I speak quickly he was going so fast I was like I can't get it out so forgive me this board accepts your credential sir thank you thank you real quick before we get started I do have two thank you Michael just for the record you mark this A1 correct yes thank you and then I'm going to hand out A2 is just two 11 by 17 pictures of a site one from Mammoth Road and the other from the intersection that's what I was thinking that's this the prices oh yeah that is not at this site that is from another site that is what's going to be put at this you c not here okay Kevin could you please describe the site and the proposed signage the board just hold on just real quick before you begin um can you represent into the microphone what A2 was again yes sorry that's okay I just want to get it on the record A2 is 21 by 17 pictures of the site one from Mammoth Road uh right before the driveway uh where you exit from Taco Bell and the other is uh a picture from the intersection of Pine Drive and Mammoth Road and collectively they'll be marked as A2 yes thank you thank you um questioning Mr Dixon do you want me to stand up here so that I'm also at a microphone and he is as well okay thank you Mr Dixon can you please describe the site in the proposed signage sure uh of course the board is familiar with the site the site is 162 acre mixed use commercial development the multitude of buildings uh including uh along Monmouth Road near the intersection or the inter the interchange with I I15 uh and U includes 7even buildings along Monmouth Road proposed it also includes uh the 7-Eleven uh which is the subject of this application uh which has a uh gas station canopy in front of the actual building uh housing the convenience store of the 7-Eleven uh the um original approval allowed for 12 freestanding signs um total sign area well over 1,000 square ft uh and the site plan the approved site plan includes a large freestanding sign almost directly adjacent to the 7-Eleven and several tenant signs including seven tenant signs along the frontage one of which is is also the tenant sign for this development with the total square footage of signage that is out there as I said well over a th000 square feet if you include the I95 signage um 195 rather um the digital pricing for the fuel on this site is 10 Square ft and it is located directly adjacent to the driveway that leads into this fueling Center uh so what we have is a situation in which a 50 m hour roadway uh approaching traffic at that speed sees several commercial establishments and their signs prior to the ability to see the uh 10 square ft gasoline priced sign which is directly in front of the driveway it's actually past the driveway but directly adjacent to it uh for this fueling facility which basically means there is a limited amount of decisionmaking ability for the motorist to uh observe what that uh gas price is and make the decision to make that turn um we all understand how uh motorists routinely will check gas prices especially when there's more than one fueling station in the area and even more so today with gas prices fluctuating the way they do and maintaining a fairly High we're glad they came down recently but a fairly High uh price at this time so people are shopping uh a penny will make the difference for a lot of people and uh they would try to examine both of those gas stations now I know Wawa is a different town different County but it is right across the street and uh we visually we're talking about the motorist who's going to use that their facilities to try to make that decision and and we believe that this sign is going to enhance their ability to make that decision more advanced of that decision point where they can slow down and make that turn in a safe manner okay it sounds like in describing the site and the proposed sign you got a little into the positive criteria so going into the positive criteria with regard to the C2 variants what purposes of zoning do you think would be promoted if the board were to Grant the variance to allow the two LED uh fuel price signs well for my experience I would say that the uh the enhanced visual pickup for motorists would satisfy purpose a which would be to enhance this health safety morals and and general welfare of the of the public and uh I think that this is a safety enhancement that I've seen uh and evaluated both on the private and public side many times before this and it's always been my position that a greater visibility from a greater distance uh reduces confusion whereas confusion is uh increases uh or decreases safety in my opinion and currently with the monument sign there you have a Taco Bell sign before it you have a Popeye sign and you have several trees that although thin right now will still the one closest hinders The View sort of of the pricing is that correct there's no question that that tree will mature into a visual blockage of that sign eventually further limiting the the decision-making ability of the motorist based on your knowledge skill and experienced and your expert opinion the proposed signs will allow the motors to more easily identify the gas prices from the road allowing for safer Ingress and egress uh of the motoring public is that correct they will okay uh would also allow for safer internal site circulation uh since now it would be more easily identifiable to see those prices if someone was at the Taco Bell or the the I think it's the panda uh further down this development yes they're able to look down the what I'll call the initial or the the the front marginal access roadway that uh cuts across and connects to various commercial P sites um and able to observe that sign from their vantage point and again motorists routinely compare prices they'll be looking across the street at the Wawa sun which is very large by comparison to this this proposed 24 square foot sign and they will be able to see that without having to maneuver out onto the highway to try to make that decision and also with the LED sign that's going to be facing uh across the way from MTH Drive that'll allow the motoring public going down Pine Drive to see the gas prices as well is that correct yes facing Monmouth Drive obviously it doesn't do much for the Northbound traffic uh or the southbound traffic you don't see it until you're right up right till you're passing it what it where it really comes into play is on Pine again where you're where the motorist is trying to make that decision they'll be able to see that from that intersection okay and be able to make a choice whether or not they want to make a right and go to Wawa or go straight down Pine and go gas up at 7-Eleven is that correct yes and if they're local you know they'll be mon they'll be seeing that you know daily or however often they're they're going past those points so they'll be keeping track of that they'll know where to look they'll be able to see it in a safe manner as they're passing through that area in addition to the positive criteria we have to show the negative criteria there's two aspects of the negative criteria uh first and that is whether not the gra of the variance will create a substantial detriment to the public good or a substantial impairment to the intent and purpose of the Zone plan and zoning ordinance do you think if the board were to Grant this variance it would be create a substantial detriment to the public good no not at all as a matter of fact it will be an enhancement to Public Safety which I it would go to the C2 benefit of this grant of the variance if the board should so Grant it uh and and the benefit would certainly outweigh any detriments which we can get into on the other side of that but the uh there there would be uh no significant uh detriment to the public good uh on the contrary it would be an enhancement of Public Safety do you think the grance will create a substantial impairment to the intent and purpose of the Zone plan and zoning ordinance no I don't uh the sign that's being proposed is not only compatible with the surrounding area uh but it is in keeping with the previous approvals that this site was granted and is as I said say as an as an enhancement to the visibility of the sign uh would only complement the previous approvals that were granted I have no other questions for Mr Dixon unless the board has any questions for him or the professionals through the chair yes Mr book can you describe or do is there an an intended limit in terms of the color that is going going to be flashed is it going to be flashed will it be solid is there an intensity or or an intensity issue you know if I'm across the street is this thing going to be striking me like with strobe flashes in terms of what there will be no flashing okay this is only going to be the the lighting the color will be white and it will just display the price that is it it will be consistent with the current Monument sign that's out there which is also a digital sign but as I said Square ft in area at the ground level all it we'll take is taking this operates similar to The Monument sign but only it'll allow us to get more visible the gas prices further away uh by allowing us to place it on the gas canopy in those two locations thank you any other question Mr chair lady I'm looking at the photographs that you uh submitted today and I see on the opposite side of um route 537 that I can tell from the color it looks like it's a Wawa gas station there correct that's correct it has a a freestanding sign that had it being Wawa has a freestanding sign it displays the prices do you have any on 7-Eleven like that do you have a freestanding sign that displays the price at other locations this on this this site no we do not well there is a small there's only the monument sign that is at that um we're talking about but not a freestanding sign there's the the monument sign that has 10 square fet for our prices so it has the prices yes okay my concern here is that well let me ask you the question before I tell you what my concern is uh do you know of any other guess gasoline brand in New Jersey that has these um price sign on a canopy let me let me call uh Rajiv Krishna he's the representative from Signs by tomarrow the signed installer hello everyone good evening if you would please raise your right hand I'm sorry do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments they about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth or nothing but the truth I will thank you very much if you would please state your name uh Rajiv Krishna the last name is KR i s h n a okay and provide your affiliation and your credentials for the benefit of the board so I'm the owner of the sign business SSP Enterprises or Signs by Tomorrow uh we've been in business about 30 years um I'm an engineer I'm a graduate mechanical Master's engineer uh from Chicago I've been uh we've been installing signs for 7-Eleven for the last 15 years uh we do a lot of work in New Jersey and around uh the state um so we this board accepts your credentials can you please add others the qu the question the question is are you aware of any oil company that deals in gasoline um and has service stations in New Jersey you know of any service station any brand that has these signs on their canopy yes absolutely uh they're not they're not very common uh most of the Branded uh gas stations like Exon or sunoko don't have them but a lot of the smaller gas stations especially the Deltas the Luc oils uh have these on canopies where they basically just flash they just have the digits on the canopy they don't have uh leted are unleaded and they're usually in high traffic areas uh but they do they are not common but they do exist are these I may have missed a point these are not made Major Brands they're not Major Brands no I mean at least I have not seen them if they are seen they are in New Jersey some in New Jersey now I'm talking about smaller brands in New Jersey exist with signs on the canopy but not the major brands well my concern here is that we may be opening a a can of worms here uh I'm I'm curious as to whether or not the applicant would be willing to abandon its uh the small gasoline sign that it has on you know from the ground and allow these um uh canopy uh signs for purposes of of um you know just displaying the price and I I'm I'm saying that because if I were to look at this application with an approval uh the problem I have here is AR opening up a can of burns can of beans so a whole other Myriad of gas stations looking to have their their canopies modified um the second part the second part of that concern is that if you already have at least I can say look you're giving up something here and still maintaining a price sign at a higher ele higher elevation that is more easily viewed by the motoring public than the smaller sign is such and it becomes more safe would you be willing to to give up that that ground sign for purposes of of displaying the price and you can you'll still have whatever is on that sign I guess it says 7-Eleven or whatever let let me um address with first with regard to opening up the can of worms your honor I think um I don't think you open up a can of worms with regard to this application because I think this site is unique in the sense that there is a lot of um both Monument signs and structures and trees which are blocking the view of that of the prices on the monument sign that exists there um which makes this a little bit different this is not a uh Standalone site where you have a uh freestanding sign that says you know 7-Eleven gas or you put it on a freestanding sign like you see at Wawa uh this is a site where we're more limited in nature with a monument sign uh and because of everything that exists on the site I think currently I think that's what creates the need to allow the motoring public to more easily view uh the um gas prices because gas prices are significant nowadays with inflation and the price of everything people want to know what they're going to pay they want to they're making that decision and I think the motoru for safer egress and Ingress should know that uh as they're coming closer uh traveling down m Road and also at Pine Road which right now they would never even be able to see the prices on Pine Road I I we would I agree in a way that it can be unique and I think I need to find that uniqueness to allow these signs on a canopy the canopy is if I'm not mistaken is essentially an accessory structure here um the question becomes do we open it up to existing gas stations that that allow that would would prefer to have these a little higher so that everyone can see it I understand your problem here I understand your problem I understand this the smallest the the the size of the sign for oncoming traffic at a moderate speed I'm not going to say a speed there at a moderate speed it could create a problem yes and if you had a higher sign I understand your your experts testimony that it would it it could satisfy um purpose a for safety things of that nature um but you already have a sign we do uh we have it the monument sign but again that I think what we're doing is to enhance safety here I think we need it because right now where that Monument sign is you can see it from Pine Drive and you can't see it realistically it's almost not you can't see it as you're coming to the Taco Bell where you're coming out you can barely see it well if you can't see it then why not just uh say let's we'll remove it well as you get closer you can I don't think 7-Eleven was looking to remove or any signage uh I think and I think what makes this different from your regular gas station that may be on its own or at another location is that this location is unique based upon everything that exists on it I mean this site has an indoor outdoor facility has multiple restaurants right in in the front has hotels has so much on this site going on as it currently exists that I think that's what makes this unique in I'm not disputing that I'm not I'm not disputing that because I agree with you that it may be a unique situation and that's why I think you're not open to I also know your problem that you know the the 7-Eleven representative is probably not here tonight to make a kind of decision I know uh been there done that um but my my concern here is that this is kind of a unique situation your expert testify there is no no major brand uh gasoline that that has this type of sign um but there are unbranded types that do and I don't know how they got it but they do so my concern is that you got a lot of signs here right uh at other New Jersey locations we actually have a freestanding sign 7 71 does with the gas prices except we don't have that here and that would address the issue where we wouldn't need this and that's why we need to put it on the we'd like to put it on the gas I think that's what I said I think that I agree with you in a way that if you had a larger freestanding sign you would need these that's correct okay that's correct but you already have a freestanding sign you have two of them in the direction of traffic and now you want to put them on the canopy that's my concern if you were if you can concede the removal of the free St from my point of view I don't know what the other board members feel but my point of view you know I would like to reduce the situation as best we possibly can you you got so many prices there I don't know to look up or look down well I don't have the authority to concede uh to and I don't think 7-Eleven wants to remove anything with the uh Monument sign and as indicated we do not have a representative from 7-Eleven here this evening uh but again I think you know the monument sign that we have there is in character with the other Monument signs so um I think ultimately uh there's no issue with allowing that and I think we're not opening up a can of worms as I said and as agreed upon by your honor it's just this is a unique property it's got a unique nature to it based on everything that exists there which promotes and uh supports the need for the C2 variant uh relief uh for the gas canopy LED signs at this site so we'd prefer and respectfully request that this board Grant the LED uh two LED fuel price signs without the requirement that we remove the uh signage at the monument on because I think the three together allow the Moor Republic to I mean anyone that may not see that will absolutely see the monument sign when they're coming down Mammoth Road so I'm not asking you to remove the signs all I'm saying is remove the price signs on it you can put whatever you want on there that if it well that's a digital sign right now it says 7-Eleven on it or whatever it says I don't it says 7-Eleven but there's a digital sign actually already on that right maybe an ENT it could have an entry sign I don't care you know I understand it but I'm trying to justify in my mind granting this variant when you already have price signs at ground level and now you want several above ground level and that's my only concern thank you Mr pet thank you Mr Peters the applicants attorney pretty much set forth the examples I was going to offer the board with regards to the type of ownership and what you have along either side of the road while walk across the street is a standalone site it's got a monument sign it's got a freestanding sign 20 ft off the road you don't need it on the canopy the canopy is 75 ft off the road I suspect if 7-Eleven came in and the board wanted to give them the Wawa sign on their site they get rid of all the signs but that's not going to happen because there's a 500q foot sign for the entire 130 acre property so there are either seven or eight pad sites along 537 each of them with limited signage ability so 7-Eleven is not coming in trying to put up a sign close to the street in the same view shed as the master sign the large sign or the street traffic signs it has fireworks going off says eat it Joe's they're trying to put the price on the canopy so it's off the ground um um that was the only distinction I was going to draw I understand that seven of them would like to have it I understand Mr Hurley has a concern about it but I think it was I don't disagree with the applicant's testimony about the unique situation that affects the tra of land on the south side of the road where the 7-Eleven gas station is it's a multi-tenanted site so ironically enough when um I got this application I had to laugh because uh towards the end of the summer beginning of the fall when we went back to school my husband and I happened to be out that way and he was like I can't believe they didn't put up a bigger gas sign or at least put I didn't know what the sign was called right put signs up because it's virtually impossible to see that small sign and he pointed out he goes just wait until that tree grows exactly and I was like oh again as he's somebody has in his part-time job was a over the road truck driver so of course these are not things I would have thought of so as I'm listening to you all I'm thinking well that's so funny because you you know at some point you won't be able to see that so again I think as Mr Peters pointed out with the other large sign there you have the Popeye sign I mean there are a lot of signs out there to to put another large sign like Wawa has would be you know a little bit more difficult but those type of signs I wouldn't have a problem with you know sitting in that area so somebody could see it as you're coming to it thank you because if you look at this picture it's virtually impossible yeah to see that sign it is any other I think you want to say something I just wanted to say to Mr Hurley's Point um I think that the benefit of having the existing Monument there is for those drivers that do drive down the road yeah um and are actually paying attention to the road you can actually see it so I think it is a benefit to the um to the motorist I mean I think you're targeting different motorists um at different points but I think it's beneficial to that both of them thank you do the chair I have a question is the Monument sign double-sided yes it is okay the the existing Monument sign yes it is okay so to Mr Hurley um I actually use that sign not to see the price of gas but to see where to enter um and then if you miss that then you have to go to the light and then you know it's kind of a pain so if I could add to that was waiting for Mike to finish but one of the benefits of the of having both signs to your question would be that it's reinforcing to the decision not only to enter but remember the motorist is looking at the price of gas and they are and they are making that decision so um sign reinforcement we've all learned through the years from pad sites McDonald's has a little arrow that says enter and I and I recognize you're saying okay to make that an entrance sign but again I I think the motorist is is focused on the pricing so they're going to be they're going to actually get the opportunity to see that one more time before they pull it so is is this actually going to be on the front of the building facing 537 it's or if you if you look it's going to be uh if you look at 8 uh two it's going to be on the corner there uh closest to Mammoth Road uh on the sign facing uh Mammoth Road and then around that corner it's going to be on the end there as well facing Pine Drive because if we move it over anymore then no one would be able to see it from Pine Drive because it would be blocked by that large uh LED sign on the site and that's why if you go to uh the second page of A2 you can see that one area right to the right as you come up Pine Drive is not blocked by the uh large uh existing now it's LED sign that's there and their prices will be there so they'll be able to be seen from Pine Drive okay so there would actually be one on each end then one on each end at that corner there so it's visible from Pine Drive and also visible further down mamit drive because that's the the main concern is coming Ming public coming down this way because of all the monument signs and the trees you have there we got to they got to be able to see what's what's there what the prices are to make a decision thank you thank you any other comments or questions I'd make a comment if I may I've mentioned this a number of times to to board members here uh among my many careers and I've had several of them I was a construction engineer for a major oil company and we were designing and building gasoline service stations and one of the main concerns and I understand your problem with not having a district manager here saying yes you know give up that sign uh he'd probably have a heart attack if if we suggested that to them because sales wants those signs as many as they possibly can I mean I I was confronted with a a freestanding sign and uh working to put up this gasoline service station as they said it's a major oil company and there were trees in the front and they asked me they being salespeople can we cut those trees down no they're not ours you know can we do something can we put some Nails in it or something no you can't do that but I know the concern here is and it's a safety issue I mean you're you're preaching to the choir here about that sign being on on the canopy what I'm concerned about is establishing something now that's going to have a number of well we have Exxon come in we'll have shell come in you know they'll all come in WWA may come in so we want to put some signs on our canopies now but you look at Wawa they've got that that free standing sign now you don't have it and it could you know you don't have that ability there because of the location you're at that that from in my mind it gives me the ability to say this is a unique situation and therefore we don't want to establish a precedent here get get rid of the other signs that's that's my and that's what I think that's my only comment and I think that's I agree with I think that's what gives you the difference between this and let's say Texico Exxon Sonoco that comes in at a pre is the unique nature of this site and everything that's going on here is what makes this different and the fact that we can't have a normal Pyon sign with the digital prices that we would have at any other location I there's 7-Eleven on the expressway when I go to work and I see it they got the digital sign right there so everyone's clear coming down the expressway you know what the price of gas is if you want to pull in you don't have that here so that's why how do we Define it how do we Define it as unique if another applicant gas station comes in and there at the corner of a mall here's how we could Define it as unique uh I hope that you would agree uh first uh a couple points one uh there is no identification of this building until the motorist is almost on top of it because of the preceding buildings and the canopy is actually Flushing with the face of the adjoining buildings along that roadway and that's the canopy that doesn't even include the convenience store which has its iconic image with the red and green stripes across the building which makes 7-Eleven visible and identifiable and you don't even see the canopy until you're so near it that you are making a decision at the last point it's 100 fet off the roadway the canopy itself and then the building is almost another 100 ft probably about about another 85 ft back from there so you do not have the visibility of this convenience store gas station as you're going 50 miles an hour down the highway and I and I would say that that creates a very unique situation for this that's exactly what I said you know you remind me when I was working for a living I used to tell at attorneys when they keep talking I said you know it's yours to lose if you want to keep talking and they keep talking and then they lose so the my my only Point here is that what you were saying is exactly what I'm saying from my point of view I agree with you that it's a safer situation but you're asking for a variance and the problem that I see if we're going to ask for a variance you've got something there that may not it's been said you can't see it so if you can't see it why not concede to to remove it that's my only point I agree with you on your testimony you you you're preaching to the choir I I think you want to have I don't think you want to eliminate the monument sign or the person of the monument sign you want to give the motor public every available chance to you know be able to see what the prices are someone that may not be looking up further down the road may come see the monument sign someone that doesn't see the monument sign until I may notice it from as they're coming down the county road I think when you I think by adding adding the canopy sign and having the monument sign I I think just creates a safer situation here um and quite honestly what we're looking for here is probably less of a sign area total than if we were able to do a pylon sign or freestanding sign similar to what Wawa has across the street and we were able to put our our prices on there we were able to put you know 7-Eleven and it was identifiable I mean the total sign area that we'd be asking for with a normal sign package at our site is greater in nature than the little bit of relief we're asking here so that's why I think you know this you know quite honestly I don't think we you want to eliminate any of it I think by just adding this you're just increasing uh the general health safety and Welfare of the motor Republic and giving them a better opportunity and more of an opportunity to more safely Ingress and egress this site and even from an internal circulation Point allowing let's take away them forget about the money but someone internally okay that's at this site that may be at the Panda Express down the road can't see the price on that Monument sign because you got a Taco Bell and you got a uh Popeyes but they'll see the canopy sign meanwhile the M Republic down mamri will be able to see the monument sign and let me ask your let me ask your expert a question then is there any place on this sign on this site that you can put a larger sign such as wa was it would compete with a sign that is already there if it was in any way in proximity to this to this to this 2 acre pad site so the answer is the answer is the answer is no you answer no you have a 458 foot digital sign wait wait a minute wait a minute the answer is no that's correct thank you and that would require a variance as well if even if they could any additional questions or comments Mr Molin you have did I say that properly yes okay thank sorry here F any additional closing uh remarks no we just respectfully request that the uh board grant our variant relief to allow the two LED uh fuel price signs at this location uh 24 s ft in area each for 48 s feet total thank you all right board it's we we have to open it up to the public oh I'm sorry that's fine I didn't see anybody I'm opening up this opening this up to the public seeing no one come forward I'm going to go ahead and close public session now board it's up to us so for the chair uh just as a just a point of order in uh this is this is a c variance a basic bulk variance or a c variance um and it only requires a simple majority um for approval from the board any questions or comments I can make a motion if I may I move that the application be approved I I I making that motion on the following information number one that this application is not a C1 variance it's not a hardship type situation it's a C2 flexible C variants and the requirements that are are are put forth for purposes of proof are the positive criteria and the negative criteria I accept the testimony of the applicants expert relative to the positive criteria in that it satisfies the uh purposes of zoning parag subparagraph a it's a safety issue there's no there's no question in my mind in that regard U I accept the the statements not the testimony of the of the attorney but the statements of the attorney is that the monument signs that are there that currently have the the prices can't be seen from either direction and as a result of that there would be a necessity to have a sign that's somewhat bigger or higher so it's visible to the motoring public without having to strain or without having to make a snap decision that becomes a safety issue so I think the aspect of the positive criteria has been satisfied relative to the negative criteria that is required to be EST established um the the signs that are that are being requested here seem to be consistent with the development of the area in general there's a lot of lot of restaurants there a lot of different types of stores with different types of signs some being on the buildings themselves may be higher or as high as as this canopy sign so as far as its inconsistency with with the U development of the area I see no inconsistency I don't see any any detrimental impact as a result of that relative to the master plan and and the zoning ordinance it seems that this application has been previously approved for the uses that are are permitted this is an accessory in my mind it's an accessory structure to the permitted use of the gasoline service station it's a cover for the island um that in order to have gotten the approval for the for the gasoline station itself it would have to have been consistent if it got the a variance zoning z d variance had to be consistent with the master plan and inconsistent with and consistent with the Zone plan in general I don't see this makes any major difference in that regard to any decisions that have made previously So based on that I think the applicant has met is positive and negative criteria I still have the concern relative to the sign I want to make sure that if this board finds uh uh grants and approval this application that we we make sure that we make statements in the resolution at least in my mind for my purpose that it's a unique situation the unique situation being that a freestanding sign similar to the um size of the sign of Wawa across the street cannot be placed on this property for the reason stated I accept the engineer's testimony in that regard So based on that I I I I move that the application be approved as a as a flexible cc2 I'll second we have a motion and a second roll call please Mr Hurley yes Mr Stafford Smith yes Miss FR yes Mr book yes Miss Parnes yes does Mr hman vote Yes Mr Heyman yes Miss Bradley yes yes Madam chairwoman members of the board thank you very much thank you have a good night you as well thank you motion to adjourn all in favor I