welcome the purpose and function of the Jacksonville Beach special magistrate Hearing in accordance with 162 and the City of Jacksonville Beach code of ordinances is to reach an equitable expedition to enforce the codes the city presents the violation and evidence to the special magistrate next the property owner is sworn in and responds to the violation and evidence both the city and the property owner may call witnesses to provide sworn testimony relevant to the case this is a qu judicial hearing not a public for individuals not called as forign not be heard thank you very much I think I won I believe that we're going to start the agenda begin ta re City attorney on these items thank you thank you David Meg City attorney here on behalf of the city of Jacksonville Beach with regard to the business tax receipt agenda items items a through F uh have all uh the violations have all been cured by the property owners so those no longer to be heard and of the remaining items on the agenda for today item G is the sole remaining business tax receipt related item and we would be prepared to commence that item at this time if if you so desire well let me first um just um ask the city uh is it your desire for um the items a through f as in Frank special magistrate to issue order finding those to be in compliance at this time yes okay thank you and so a through F we we will do I will rule in that manner and uh so please move forward with item G which is it g which is case number 4- 215 the owner is bad Bob 76 LLC doing business as Susan mer hair designers and the violation is regards section 15-2 of the code persons upon whom business tax Lev and local business tax receip required to the city at this time I'll where everybody in for me begin with that one um please raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that the testimony about forgiveness matter is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so I'll be God I do please state your name and possession J lber Deputy city clerk uh certified Florida State business license official thank you very apprciate and your honor first if you don't mind I'd like to ask if anyone in the crowd here for this item or want to see if they want to be sworn in um looks like no one may be here at this point so let me uh I will question Miss bird um thank you for introducing yourself how long have you been employed with the city of Jacksonville Beach just over eight years and how long have you been employed in your current position uh two and a half years and do your duties include working with the city's business tax receip program yes I oversee and supervis a program and what is the requirements of a business in the city of Jacksonville Beach with regards to a business tax receipt to obtain a local business tax receipt and renew the tax receipt annual we and when are the business tax receipts due each year they expire September 30th of every year invoices are mailed out every year the first week of August second invoices are mailed out October 2nd um followup emails are done within the first week of December and then if needed we have additional contact options that we do and where was such correspondence sent to bad Bob 76 LLC late last year yes and H how many business tax receipts are do would would this business be subject to they hold two separate local business tax receipts one is for the doing business as a salon and um each chair that they have in the salon and the second local business tax receipt is for miscellaneous retail sales as they sell um products such as shampoo conditioner and other miscellaneous items and for those two business tax receipts how much was the initial amount due the initial amount due was 7920 for $79.20 for the retail and $79.20 for the salon for any of the fees and penalties and what are the lat and delinquency fees that are assessed under our business tax feed ordinance so the [Music] schedule the schedule for the fee is um if the renewals were not paid on time as of October there's a 10% pen penalty November there's a 5% December there's a 5% January there's a 5% and in February after 150 days of non-compliance there is an additional $250 fee added and have all those fees been assessed against this property yes what is the total current amount due including all late and delinquency fees for these two business tax receipts for the salon part the total amount is $445 25 for the miscellaneous retail it's $349 and that totals $794 125 that is currently do and this grand total amount is all due from Bad Bob 76 LLC DBA Susan Mar care designers yes sir have you provided notice to them of their fees being due and and any subsequent notices regarding delinquency yes again the first envo was mailed out as all of them were on August 1st second notices were mailed out as all of them were for all businesses October 2nd followup email was sent to individual businesses on December 12th Final Call attempts by phone was febru between February 21st and 23rd informing any business that the additional $250 fee was going to be added if not paid April 8th a legal notice was mailed certified return receipt and on May 8th a notice of hearing was hand delivered to the business at which time the fire marshal stated that he spoke with someone in person there and they wanted to give him a check at that time but he advised them to come into the city clerk's office to pay and no one has and we have not had any communication with the business did someone did anyone sign for the certified mail no I don't believe so but a letter was also mailed out regular mail as well excuse me um councelor could you give me the date that the fire visited the site May 8th May May the 8th May 8th and have you had any other correspondence with this business other than what you've already testified to yes sir have they made any other efforts to contact your office to set up payments or otherwise dispute this no sir you're this time we would profer the testimony provided um as part of our case in requesting that you find the property owner guilty of those violation um could you uh clarify I have some so thank you very much I do have a couple of clarifying questions um on the April 8th mailing you if I may through the city attorney if I um you mentioned that April 8th there was a a mail letter and certified letter was the certified letter returned to the city if your honor can I refresh the witnesses recollection yes um I'm going to provide this document to you and then I'll provide it to um the judge the magistrate do you recognize this yes my my apologies it is assigned return rece is that for that specific property that we've been discussing yes and did someone in fact sign that this address I believe this one was the registered agent um but has someone signed that received signed for it yes and based on your involvement is that a true photo copy of the card that was received back from the yes apprach yes we would ask okay this is a copy of the um signed return receipt U for it was dated of April 11th 2024 uh the article was addressed to bad Bob du Jor that it's registered agent at 1301 where replac Boulevard Jacksonville Florida does um does the city know who the actual property owner here is is it is it this particular business and U because um what what um in look and I'm asking this question because I'm concerned about the entities the um the formal status of the entities um in looking at sunbiz um neither Susan Mar ha designers or bad Bob 76 seem to be um currently registered with with with Florida um Division of Corporations um which is why I'm asking about the property owner for the property whether it's one and the same um it doesn't mean that they shouldn't have paid a business tax receipt but I I was wondering if you can tell me that you were able to confirm that through observation of the business or uh any other um evidence that you might have that the business there is still being operated under these names um could I respond by listing testimony from the witness sir okay um M BL have you are you familiar with this property from previous years's business tax receipts yes and have you reviewed the Florida Division of Corporations records related to this property yes do you recall when the entity known as bad Bob 76 LLC uh was dissolved let me step back once do you know if bad Bob 76 LLC is currently an active corporation on the sunbiz website I believe it is not would that have been because it was dissolved for failure to file n report I would assume so yes do you recall when that dissolvement took place I do not okay and and you're if you haven't already looked it up I think we could take judicial notice of whenever that dissolvement was I believe it was in 2016 that's not testimony the records should speak for themselves but I just wanted to say that just prior to my next question is have they paid in all previous years uh and in and did they pay their business tax receipt a year ago yes they did and the year before yes they did and do you have any knowledge of them not paying their business tax since you've been responsible for this program no they have paid late other times not to this extent but a month or so late but they have paid every year and your honor to get back to your question if I if if I may address it um it's a valid point but I think the testimony shows that we've had customary dealings with this business they've always paid I believe again this isn't testimony the record themselves but I believe the entity name may have been dissolved many years ago um you know we don't have the resources to check every single business every single year uh we we do you know we check as part of this um and if you need testimony on this I I'll gladly elicit testimony but you know the staff looks at businesses as needed when payments not coming in we we had no knowledge or no reason to believe that it's not the same entity um and I think the demonstrate there's been a a customary history with this property that would show there's no nothing of Suspicion to us or that would would raise any sort of concerns with us as to a different owner of the property so to your knowledge um to the city's knowledge they're still holding themselves out as Susan M Hair Designers is that to my knowledge in the sign of the it's in a shopping plaza and the sign both on the shopping plaza wall and on the door like Susan meric okay is there anything there that you observe uh referring to bad Bob 76 LLC no nothing other than the sun Biz and are you familiar with um someone named Jamie s tally t a l l e y no okay I did drive by there myself yesterday um the business was closed at the time um sign was still there um I did look inside and it did seem as if it was a full functioning Salon electricity was on um they just were not open at the time so there were chairs there looked there was shelves yes is there any other testimony that the city wants to offer just a brief closing statement if you'll allow it right um hold on let me at U I do have one other question the um the ordinance code allows for attorney fees reasonable attorney fees to be um be um charged against someone um and I know in one other case um before this prior special magistrate that attorney fees were um found to be due to the city are there any attorney fees in this in this particular instance that the city is seeking there are they they are minimal are if you need that to be under oath because I think I'd be speaking more as a witness than than a lawyer i' gladly go under oath and we would ask for uh if you're Sone time for Recovery of the actual attorney's fees expended okay well I I would need to hear what that information is um and so that I could rule I could include that in that order uh would you prefer I be spor in so my statements under oath the factual St I think fine okay please raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that the testimony about to give in this matter is truth of Truth and nothing but the truth to help you God I do please state your name and your position David mot City attorney city of Jacksonville Beach um your honor in this case um I incurred a little over three hours of time somewhere between three hours and 3 hours and 15 minutes of time um to review the of this case uh admittedly it did include reviewing the the ordinance in general because this is the first case like this I've handled at this jurisdiction um and then my base hourly rate which would not include um public sector so I don't build a CLI on an hourly basis but just salary not including any other benefits uh hourly rate would be $98 56 cents for I I think the best way to describe it would be 3 and hours of time 3 3.125 okay thank you I don't build by T of an hour like private sector attorney so my math I think 1/8 is125 so of an hour yes I don't actually but I'll figure it out so what you're saying is it was 3 hours plus 1 18 of an hour yes okay I don't have any other questions at this time uh is there any I know I know that this was asked previously but is there anyone else in the audience who wishes to speak on this issue okay see none um is there closing any closing that you wish to just very brief I think that the testimony today has shown that the the ordinance is applicable that the business was provided notice multiple attempts were made at notice uh following the the procedure required um the the amount has not been paid the amounts that would be due under the ordinance including delinquencies uh has all been test those ons have been testified too by uh the staff member and therefore we would request an order find them of violation and awarding all the cost delinquency fees and attorneys fees that are allowed for under the code thank you thank you um I will be ruling in the city's favor on this item and um on on all your on all the requests made um and be publishing an order um on this matter within the next five business days thank you thank you very thank you [Music] just bear with me no problem I just for moving on to the next item is item H case number 24-20 the property owner is Gary Anderson and the violation address is 505 Palm Tree Road Jacksonville Beach the is uh violation of section 34-42 parking of heavy vehicles in rs1 rs2 RS3 rm1 rm2 zoning districts or residential uses in the Rd or PUD Zone District please proceed do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give in this matter is the TR the and nothing but the truth so help you go I do please state your name and your position Nikki bie City Beach code enforcement officer okay um as stated the property owner Gary Andre at 505 Palm Tree Road case number 2400 this was in regards to a recreational vehicle that was parked in um the city right away and also not part of the setback requirements after um further investigation as you can see this is where it was parked on exhibit a um exhibit B we did do um some investigating and found that the property owner did have a variance so where his front door as you can see on here is actually considered his side yard once he got the variance um you back to the photograph please can you do you have a pointer that shows where it there I don't think there a pointer on here so this is the front of the house that's on 505 palm tree so typically that's normally someone's front door where their address is this property is located on a corner lot and once the property owner obtain the variant the largest um area of as you can see on the survey is actually his on this bottom front where I wrote front is a shed that actually it looks like it's the side of the house cuz there's no door there's no address there but once he obtain the variance um this was considered the front of the house and where the air string is pared now considered his backyard okay um I have some questions about this in the future it would be really helpful if you have a pointer okay because the descriptions are pretty confusus there's a p it's a little line on there this oh okay there it is okay great okay so you want me to go back to the other picture that' be great just for a quick second so what did you want to see on this one where you said the front door is oh right here okay and so and the address we is this picture taken from Road correct and what is the other Street it is Fourth Avenue so are you saying now that Fourth Avenue is technically the proper yes so right here this is now because as you can see the 30 ft this is the largest um part on the survey point from the actual structure so this would now be considered his front yard so on the variance okay go back okay um what is the street at the bottom of this picture the bottom of right here this is fourth so that's fourth yes but you just said that fourth Aven is considered his front yard yes but his address is listed as 505 Palm Tree Road and was the Fourth Avenue determined to be his front yard based upon the variance decl was was that declared in the variance correct and when was the variance granted the variance was granted this was is April 19th of 2000 and was that granted to the current landowner correct so being that we do you have a a variance number case number um yes the case number is 31 d2000 I'm sorry 31-2 31 D 2000 that's the number of the variants that's the case number okay so after um speaking with our planning and zoning department and obtaining this information the property owner is now considered Inc compliance one more question where on this drawing that you're showing us Exhibit C where is the RV located right here next to the driveway where the front door is and there's the where is this future garage this is where where I got the orange Mark that's where the airst stram was parked so is that considered a side yard it is actually considered his rear yard based on the variance that he obtained now well back in 20 and based upon it being in the rear yard does it now meet setback end is no longer in a rway correct did the variance driveway area yes because now this is considered his rear yard and he can park the um air stram in the setback requirements as you just stated and it's no longer considered being parked in his front yard which is the prior to learning all of this just driving up and you're seeing the front door you're thinking this and this is where the address is that this is someone's front door because where it says front and shed there's no door there's nothing right there but a wall okay um is there anyone is there anything else no it's it's comp okay is there anyone else in the audience who wishes to speak on this item or party to the to this item no seeing none um then we'll close this um testimony um I will that you know compliance has been had I appreciate the facts because I will add those to the to the okay thank you thank you all right moving on to case I case number 2346 um this is the property owner is Joseph benza address 1023 North 14th Avenue this was in regards to no building permit being obtained no I'm sorry yes this is in regards to no building permit being obtained for um level three Renovations the property owner is currently um in progress they had a um rough inspection yesterday and my only recommendation is for them to obtain a certificate of completion once all Renovations have been completed and the final inspection has been obtained um so you want them to get a certificate of completion and what was the second thing once all the renovations are complete and obtain a final inspection from our building official so you're saying that in fact they did obtain an appropriate building permit yes they did so everything is in progress the building permit um is good for 180 days and um they did have a work inspection yesterday and do you have information on when the bill permit was actually issued not with me today is it safe to say at some time they still have plenty of time they still have have about 60 days after you issued the notice of hearing to correct okay and how many uh days do you want them usually come back after they've obtained the certificate of completion and had their final inspection to finalize the case and close it so you want me to basically continue the hearing correct do you want me to continue it to the next to the hearing in June we are we we got June com up I would say let's do September September yes just to I hope I didn't already ask this um just to confirm there's no one in the audience party is here I I'm here but I I'm I need to come up okay you don't do you know when you have like a you come up just for a second well we'll have to please raise your in do you swear or affirm that the testimony about to given this matter is the truth the whole truth and nothing with the truth to help you go please St your name and address Joseph 1023 so my question was um do you know what's the time frame of when you proba so now we talk to mru so the contractor is actually there now finishing up so he said probably be two months or so but so September yeah okay so um as as I stated once you complete that get that certificate of completion if um you can just let them know in our building department to contact me so then we can come back and then we'll close the case okay thank you very much app um I will as as C requested continue the hearing until the September hearing okay right moving to J this is JR rushing at 620 South First Street case number 22603 um this was in regards to no building permit being um this is the main structure at the property this was part of a shed that was um constructed without a building permit about 85 90% of the shed has been removed and let me see if I can get okay here's another picture as you can see right here this is what's remaining of that shed and if the owner decides to keep that he's been notified that he still would have to obtain a building permit for the shed okay and I recall that this item has been before us Cent uh in the past and I uh believe that your testimony is the same is the same is it the same corre that this came for us the order stated that either he obtained a permit for this structure or to remove it and um as you can see this picture is dated May 22nd which is today and the structure it has not been removed and no permit has been obtained I did speak to the property owner he was not able to be here today due to um an accident that occurred um I did inform him that a daily F would be assessed until the building per has been obtained or the structure removed and what is your recommendation regarding the F $100 per day did you said that you spoke to Mr rushing I did and um r indicate that he would U indicate at all that he would be obtaining a building permit correct so he his desire to obtain a building for yes um he stated that the tenant um that was previously um he was renting to build the structure and left him with the responsibility now of having to remove it or obtain a permit he said he would be in our office sometime this week or next week to obtain that permit so he was advised until that permit has been obtained that the daily F will acur until then uh does the city wish to give Mr rushing in light of the accident I believe that you said that he um the accident happened yesterday so he's been knowing since we brought this before you in the beginning that this structure had to be rep okay so okay well then I GA there's no one the a see I will take the recommendation of the city for $100 per day um beginning as of and uh that will begin to appr until he and so I'd like to have this come back in June for the June meeting so that we can determine what that f is if it's still running okay or if there's a specific amount okay uh in the order he will still have the option Tove so that Still Remains an option that's thank you very much thank you all right moving to next on the agenda K this is case number 23- 62 ACA Investments LLC at 412 North 7 Street case number 2394 um this is in regards to no building permit being obtained for an accessory structure um which is the conx um container that you see right here on the right hand [Music] side um and these were just more photos of that container Mr M Brooks has also been here um this is a continuance um as you can see work had been had was in progress in regards to having the container moved um as of today May 22nd in exhibit e you will see that the container has been removed and moved to the proper location and this is in the rear yard this is the um final picture and except f um my recommendations today is for Mr M Brooks to obtain a final inspection and get the certificate of completion to close the case and do you have a time period that you believe that that would be appropiate we can come back inun later is there anything else on of the city at this time is there anybody in the audience on this thank you very um our last case is L on the agenda case number 23 130 for I'm sorry for 1121 north3r Street Inc at 1121 north3r Street case number 23130 um this was in regards to outside display of merchandise and sales um we were here this case my name's I'm sorry I didn't interrup I'm just I'm here on that case my name is Panton po I'm here on behalf of T just wait wait because first off you're not being recorded wait just one moment we can either swear you in now or or after the presentation oh that's fine my apologies I haven't been to one of these presentations before and so I I just thought since you were calling the case I should announce myself I didn't mean to interrupt anything okay thank you absolutely okay um this was a continuous um a case that was started back in September 21 of 2023 um in regards to the outdoors that was in display um that case the order was issued um order was issued November 29th that the property remain in compliance um in regards to not having the merchandise um outside for any type of display or sales um as you can see on May 2nd I did observe the merchandise back out in front of the store um this also is in the parking lot and that a flag and then they also have a a frame sign that is also um out on display so I did speak to Mr patau is I'm s am I saying it right that's okay it's po po I did with Mr Po um I did get a phone call and an email from from Mr Po stting that he was the new owner also when I went into um the store on May 2nd Chris who was here during our last hearing um is still employed there um he advised me that the store now had new owner and I did advise Chris that even with the change of ownership that the order remains in place that compliance of the merchandise being outdoors was still prohibited do you have information on who the owner is Mr and I do have a copy of our um email correspondent um when we did speak on the phone and I get a followup email just reminding Mr pow that um with the last ordinance St and I emailed a copy of the previous ordinance um and reminded him that the flag and the A-frame sign any of merchandise is not allowed and were those the same items or the same type of items November hearing yes so this would be considered a repeat correct okay now as far as the change of ownership my recommendation today being that Mr Po was not um notified of the previous order that no fines be assessed today and that uh order just states that compliance is to be maintained okay um if I if you would please come forward sure and uh state your name and address for certainly and also I don't know if you're an attorney or you are so but you're here as the owner of the property not represent a party well I I essentially so as a background yes would you like to be here yes so that microphone can you hear me okay your H can you hear me that thank you all right uh respectfully and I'll try to be very respectful of your time but I'll give you a little bit of background you are correct I am a lawyer I've been a lawyer for all since 1997 so yes my name is Panton p n t o n last name po poou Poe po sounds like Poe but it's SP poou po correct so yes I am a lawyer and I also am the owner of the business that operates as T Gregory Imports there what is the name of the business so T Gregory Imports Inc has been the business that owned T Gregory the store there that's been there for over 20 years years operating just as it is on December 29 2023 this last December um my company who we started just for the sole purpose of buying this business pink moon Imports LLC purchased could you say that name again yes pink the color pink p i n k Moon Imports what was it Imports Imports I'm I'm sorry pink moon moon m o n and then Imports LLC did you buy the property and the business or just the business no just bought the business so pink moon Imports bought the business assets of T Gregory Imports Inc all of the business assets which includes four stores this is one of three locations um and bought the name t Gregory import look on on sunz T Gregory Imports is a fictitious name owned by Pink Moon Imports LLC and pink moon Imports LLC is own by me and my wife we started it to buy this business you're listed as the managers that is correct my wife is Stephanie B and we are both listed as the managers that is correct so rather than go through that explanation every time I say it I'll say we bought the business at the end of December on December 29th 2023 so I need to know whether toare you in and you know it's up to you but I believe that as the manager of the business that owns business um that would be different than you representing um in your role as a lawyer correct so um you know you're going to be testifying about facts um that it may be appropriate for you to be swor in if you are if you're arguing for position then obviously those are not facts that's in your capacity as a lawyer so I don't know what you're going to be testifying about so leave that up to you happy to be SW it I I don't have a lot of facts to testify to it's mostly argument but I will probably testify to some facts and I also have some questions for Miss beavers so I'm happy to be sing do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give in this matter is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you ground I do please state your name and address my name is Panton pop P you my address is 333 11th Street uh Atlantic Beach Florida that's my home address did you say 33 or 3 that's my home address so what I had intended to do was um introduce myself which I I think I sort of just did um and then listen to the presentation of the basis of the citation which I think M beever did and then I had some questions that I wanted to ask speakers and I probably have some maybe some testimony and maybe some and definitely some argument that i' like to make but essentially your honor um and let me say this been very kind and and responsive when I've reached out to her and I think that Miss beavers has been trying to be you know helpful and is you know doing things as as you know in an upstanding way I mean I mean all due respect I've had very pleasant dealings with Miss Bieber so far that said respectfully I do not believe a violation exists I do not believe there's been a violation so I want to argue uh my two my two points will be there's not a violation of the code sections that have been signed there hasn't been a violation of the code sections that have been signed and if you find that there's a violation then unfortunately and this is no this this is nothing against Miss beavers but there's been selective enforcement and the enforcement's been arbitrary and for both of those reasons the citation really should be dismissed while I appreciate very much that Miss beavers has been understanding that we're new owners to the business and I want to express very clearly that as new owners of the business you this business has been here for over two decades and has been operating as it's been operating for all that time now that we're new owners we certainly want to continue that tradition and we certainly want to work with the city of Jacksonville Beach to comply with all applicable rules and and be really good stewards and citizens of business in Jacksonville Beach um I just in looking at the way the ordinance is written I don't think that there's been a violation so should your honor would you like for me to start with a more in-depth you know statement or an argument or or some questions that's up to you thank you m trans M be we're here about a notice of hearing that was issued on May 7 20124 is that correct correct okay and that notice of hearing was delivered by certified mail to 1121 nor Third Street is that right correct was it sent anywhere else it was also and it was also posted on the the address that we had on the file was the 1121 I believe that's the that would be the only address that it was sent to it was sent to the 11313 street in at 11213 Street North and then the second notice was actually placed on the front door okay uh and I think you said 11:31 but I think you 1121 right 11:21 yeah okay so that's the address of the store is that correct correct okay and it's issued to 1121 North thir Street Inc is that right yes okay um in the citation or the notice down at what I guess we would call the third paragraph says it is for violation of code 34-34 I'm sorry 34- 342 K is that correct which is what you have up on the screen right there yes okay and that is the violation that we were here about 34 342k prohibited use the business of outdoor advertising is that correct correct okay any other violations that you observed for which we are here today um the other violations that we just spoke to you verbally about and I have the email from you stating that you would be in compliance with was the the flag that was displayed in the a frame which me and you had a phone discussion I did not site you for it because you stated you were the new owner and you were not aware of those violations So based on your email you stated that verbatim we will bring those in and we will discuss further on May 22nd in my email I also stated that I observed the a frame sign in welcome flag today and that you were not in the central business district and that those were not allowed so that was a courtesy notice letting you know what the ordinance States in regards to the flag in the ath Lan so no violation was cited for those but as far as the outdoor display of the merchandise you were cited for that understood and I appreciate your courtesy and as I said before I think you've been very courtious I just think that there's a disagreement about what the what the law actually plus um and so excuse me what were the dates of those uh email May 154 I have aop I okay so there was a there was a May 14th you know I think we Stoke on the phone on May 14th is that right um I don't recall exactly what date it is okay but the email was a followup of our conversation in oura know I sent you the section for the sign for the flag stating what was allowed and what was not allow right I understand so that was on May 14th you sent the email is this a COR the email yes I have okay I to get this one this the one I to get is it accept I didn't that you want to see I would like to yes thank you the record received um a series of emails there was one email dated May 14th at 11:33 from Miss fever to to Paton at T Gregory Imports and then a response from Mr Po from Mr Po to Miss B on May 15th 2024 to 11:49 a.m. oh does that have does that have I'm sorry may I say that again does that have both the May 14th and May 15th emails is a May 14th at 11:33 a.m. oh you're correct there's a that was it that was to you from from Miss beavers at 11:33 on May 14th there was a another uh email on reference here again from Miss beavers to you dated May 15 at 11:37 a.m. correct and then your response um at 11:49 a.m. to to miss bie and the um the first subject was outside display and sales that's for the May 14th correspondence um I don't see any response from you in regards to that um of course email from Miss Bieber uh the next uh one on May 15 at 11:37 a.m. the subject matter is a frame sign flag and that is the one that you responded to at 11:49 a.m. on the same Daye May 15 so that's that's what I now have that refers to the 34 342k provision prohibited use business outo advertising and it also refers to 34-444 gr 15 flutter signs FEA signs and there's a reference that this is for the quote welcome thank you may I think this is a copy of the order that you sent me um from the prior map correct earlier the November 29th I see that this order from November referenced um violations of 34- 342 as in boy 342 C and 342 D is in David is that correct Miss B is was that what the violations were for at that time it should have been for what all the previous um hearings were for for the outside display so it looks like K was not listed on here but it all follows Falls up under the 341 3442 so I have a copy of 34 34 3442 does this look like I have one more question about the order yes absolutely um two Miss beers um it says that this matter was previously the subject of order number 33 23 which determined that the respondent owns the business where are you reading it in the first 3323 okay which determines the responded that was the previous owner that was here and then it also stays to respond the owner is still the same no the owner has changed no no no okay the property owner is still the same as far as is this piece of property you saying the the property owner or the business owner I'm talking about the property property owner okay who is actually the responsible party according that that's who is responsible for um the violation we can't that's the only information that we actually have um is who the property own so I'm not understanding what Mr is in regards to I don't think he's gotten to it okay because it states also in here in regards to the sale of personal the what it say the banner with the word sell on the outside of the building or the property display items sold on the premises outside of the building but on the property as well as in the open parking lot adjacent to the building on the property together with B Tex to some items for sale right so what you're saying is that those descriptions are exactly what's happened this time correct even though it didn't specifically reference the the correct as yes this is a copy of 344 I just TOs I'm so sorry uh Miss beavers this is a copy of 34 342 I want to put admit that through you and present it to to the judge really it's just a matter of law but and she probably has a copy of the code that looks like she you're looking through out now which uh which code the code it's 34- 342 yes that is correct CU it should have been K let me see you don't have K listed on here and you don't have section 34341 I'm not sure what you're saying oh okay the prohib use of out advertising okay so again what is your argument oh I'm I haven't gotten to that yet I'm actually just I'm trying to you know get out some some facts for the judge to consider and and make sure that I understand the facts correctly um and present these documents to the judge and then I do have an argument my argument is that there's not a violation of uh 34- 342k and there hasn't been one so at the property but I I'll get to that okay because this is clearly outdoor display of meriz for sale so I don't know I don't know whether you've seen this before or not but you know as you'll recall you and I communicated and again I you were very gracious and I appreciate you getting back to me so quickly but I had asked for information as the emails um exhibit I wanted to understand better how what was what was happening at the store with a welcome flag and some furniture items out by the front door I wanted to understand what ordinance that was a violation of and why and you explained that it was a violation of K and so I followed up as the email show is there any further you know explanation of what this means and I I trust you didn't have anything further because that was it this is what was provided to me by our planing and phoning Department understood have you have you reviewed the ordinance that amended uh the code and added K back in December of 2015 the ordinance was 2015- 8065 was amended it looks like like back the at the end of 2015 and this is a copy of that document I don't know whether you reviewed that or not um okay and I don't know if that would be something that your honor would have a copy of but I can give you a copy of it I'm sorry I do not have a copy may I approach him if you I I only printed one copy of it I'm happy to show you the copy that I have the judge name can so can you tell me what of this amended ordinance states that you're not in violation and what are you in violation because this looks like this is in regards to signs in your honor it really is up to you what I'm what I'm accustomed to is sort of going through the questions and then doing an argument at the end if we want to be more formal and have it more convers ational I'm okay with that if that's what you would prefer well I I think it's appropriate for you to if you're going to present this document what is the purpose the purpose of the document is it's it's a 52-page document and it goes through explaining when and why the code was amended adding K and this the the the council make very clear throughout this do doent that and this is what struck me and I really kind of wanted to put this together and I've got an argument that I was going to present but I I can jump around when I saw that the violation was for K prohibited use the business of outdoor advertising it immediately struck me that that's not what's happening at our store the business of outdoor advertising is what Clear Channel does with Billboards and what outdoor you ad iing companies do when they sell signage to third parties on billboards or for example if our store was selling um a mural to cocacola to advertise on the side of the building or selling advertising space on on the property in some form fashion to third parties it immediately struck me that that's what this prohibit prohibition was about and so I asked question question and said you know Miss beavers can you explain how this is a violation she said you can't have anything outside and I get that that may be what's been discussed or explained in vacular but and I I did a fair bit of research and if something's out there that I missed my apologies but I looked quite a bit and I found nothing to suggest that that would be a violation but there's there's but but the business about door advertising quite clearly is not what's happening the business of outdoor advertising is if we had a commercial Enterprise to sell advertising on that property like the Billboards and so I found a couple places where that is clear and I can get into you know further argument in in my testimony presenting what I found but one I found this ordinance and I can direct you to multiple places where it makes quite clear that that when they added K to the code let's go to if you turn to if you'll see there's Pages at the bottom if you turn to page which kind to go in order page 11 towards the middle it makes a distinction whereas the city of Jacksonville Beach finds determins and recognizes that on site business business signs are considered to be a part of the business itself as distinguished from offsite Outdoor Advertising right and that's where it's going through and explaining there's a whole bunch of warehouses where they explain why they have the the power to to make these changes and why it's appropriate to make these changes but importantly throughout they make a clear point that that that that these amendments were in part for the goal of regulating offsite advertising they didn't want Third Street cluttered up with Billboards by Third parties advertising and in fact it says quite plainly in here one of the many benefits of disallowing billboards and and and Property Owners um putting up billboard signage by Third parties such as Clear Channel and outdoor and all those different companies that do Billboards and signs invests of that nature is it will better allow onsite the actual businesses advertising to be seen right so this is talking about again on page 12 at the third paragraph it talks about the purposes to regulate offsite Advertising Signs and then on the next paragraph on page 12 1 two 3 4 it says one of the benefits is to increase the visibility and readability and or effectiveness of onsite Signs by by reducing the VIS visual clutter of offsite signs then on the next page on page 13 it says where basically the first where I was on that page whereas the city of Jacksonville Beach recognizes that distinction between off-site premises and on-site premises signs is and that draws out a distinction it it goes on in the next paragraph to again say it's permissible to distinguish between on-site signs and offsite signs and then in that third whereas it say City Jackson Beach finds and determinance consistent with the foregoing Prem Preamble that the business of outdoor advertising should be prohibited in use of each City Zoning and throughout it draws the distinction of outdoor advertising being offsite advertising being where a business is selling advertising on their property to third parties and onsite advertising being what we have up and down the street already which is stores with their signs at just like we have just like there we have a t Gregory import sign it's the sign for that store we have two of them right there right and there's no prohibition against those signs and there's no prohibition again and that regulate sign correct I don't disagree with that at all what I'm saying is the this prohibition the of the business of outdoor advertising is not applicable to a business that has its own signage up and has a welcome flag and we can look at the the pictures that you would like to scroll back in speak so we can see the pictures it doesn't say anything about a Prohibition about having some of some chairs outside the front door it doesn't say anything about a program of having um like a sandwich award sign that A-frame sign that welcomes people in um the sign code is it is listed in regards to a frame signs you're not in the central business district and if you also look up under the sign code a frame it's it specifically states that if you're not in the central business district a frame signs are not allowed so I look for that and I know you and I talked about it and and I'm sure I well I'm just saying I've looked for it and I couldn't find anything that I'm sure they under aame okay so I didn't find that but what I did find is later in this document that I I've shared here today which one um I'm sorry in the in the ordinance that we've just been talking about the 2015 Orin correct okay so and I think that's the one that's applicable because it's the one that CED at the bottom of the code when you go down and you click um so I'm quite quite confident that's the one that's applicable there could be something else applicable but I haven't seen it um if you turn to if you go towards the back there's an exhibit a and if you turn to I'll start with uh exhibit a page four of 35 I kind of skipped some stuff that I wanted to make a point about let's see ah back before exhibit if you'll go back to page 17 of the document as we were talking about that's where it talks about at section 10 it says the section 3434 42 in accordance with all these warehouses that we just reviewed is revised to add K so that's when K was added and it talks about that there on page 17 near the bottom section 10 so then we flip over and we get to exhibit a and we go to page four of 35 exhibit a page four and it says the only thing it really says for 34 4 two wait hang on a second yeah at 3442 it says article you know words and phrases not defined otherwise essentially will have its commonly interested meanings and so I I I may have Miss I think I misread that that I don't know that that section is actually applicable but in any any event we'll flip to the next thing I underlined which is at page 11 of 35 exib day is where it talks about flags and flag poles and I are there revisions made I'm sorry I I don't have it in front of me so I'm asking is exhibit what is exhibit a it appears to be it's exhibit a to the ordinance which adds um definition sign standards at page one and then it goes through and I believe makes is it showing amendments the specific changes to the code to the city's code is that what exhib a does admittedly it is not clear what exhibit a is doing um I think I think that it is showing the changes to the I think that it is the changes to the code that it's correct so um but and also giving some definitions then then are the only changes in that 2015 ordinance to 342k that appears to be the only thing that's colable and it appears no no no that's not what I asked oh I asked are there other changes in that 2015 ordinance that in addition to the change to 342k I believe there are some other changes but I don't think that they're I don't think that they're relevant or appable um well you just mentioned flags and Could you um on page 11 correct what does that do flags on page 11 appears to give some specificity about what what is allowable so it's under 12 signs and no it's under no it's 14 it stands alone and it's it says flags flag brackets flag stations and flag poles and it talks about um for each parcel in development in a residential use of one I think this is just I think that one's Rel residential so not having the ordinance in front of me it sounds to me like it does more than just simply um affect 3 would provide for the addition of 342k it does I agree but I don't think some Provisions that apply to other sections of the ordinance code is that correct yes what other sections does it apply to I didn't really study the other sections your honor so I could take some time to do that but I looked for but your argument is that um the purpose and intent was only to um prohibit businesses like Clear Channel but it sounds like there's other Provisions that were also addressed in the same ordinance so I I I looked through the ordinance and did not see something that I thought was applicable in the way that we're discussing it primary point of my argument is that the plain language of the ordinance which says prohibited use the business of outdoor advertising is not applicable to the facts and circumstances underline the citation and so that citation seems to be incorrect and then in reading that ordinance it seemed to be when I was looking for some explanation of what that meant that the legislative intent or the the council intent was to prohibit Billboards as I described so that's what I think the relevance of this document is I'll have to take a look at the ordinance to determine whether or not I agree with your sure your position oh I understand I understand and another thing that I found to try to help understand what K means is the FD F FD the fora Department of Transportation also talks about Outdoor advertising and actually you have to get an outdoor advertising license if you want to have Billboards and those sorts of things so on their websites frequently ask questions and you know take it through you know for what it's worth your honor but I cop for you i' like to see yes approach so so far the only thing that I've received I have not actually received the um the ordinance 2015 2015 I'm sorry I that's it so when I was my apologies so when I was going to pages talking so the very first sentence in this ordinance says it's an ordinance relating to signs correct so it does more than simply the business of outo correct but that's what I asked earlier well I think if I wasn't clear I meant to agree with you that it does more than that but as it pertains to K it amended it to add K and it talks about throughout the distinction between out you know offsite advertising and The Business of outdoor advertising versus on-site advertising being advertising by the business that's at that location I think that's the the many warehouses that I cited and if it would be helpful to you I can point you point you to the pages again I'm sorry I thought you had that in front of you when I was reading through it before and U now you've also presented of something entitled Outdoor Advertising frequently asked questions correct from the F yes sir website yes joh is that correct yes joh and when did you obtain this I just went to the FD I I I found this on the FD uh website and I thought it was pertinent because if you'll see and I've highlighted it near the bottom my question was when did you obtain it oh this one this one okay okay go forward so I thought it was perit and instructive to help help us understand better what is in what is meant by the business of outoor advertising and if you look at the highlighted section on the front page on the first page it talks about anyone engaging in the business of outdoor advertising in the State of Florida was a license from the Department if you build outdoor advertising signs or structures or receive income from sale or lease or Advertising Signs or sales um then you're considered to be in the business of out your advertising I found that very instructive because as I was looking and hunting to try to understand what K met again the violation is you violated 34342 K which is prohibited use the business about the advertising I was trying to wrap my brain around how the business about the advertising was actually being conducted on that property and it seems to me it's not and so that's where we're going with this discussion it seems that in the frequently asked questions by the fdot they've said this is what Outdoor advertising is which is what I described to you actually being in the business of selling outs for advertising and then in the ordinance warehouses the many warehouses that we discussed what I what I found pertinent and relevant in in that ordinance is two things that's where K was added and in the discussion about all the many reasons the city of Jacksonville beach has to make the changes that that ordinance made including adding K it the council Drew an important distinction between the two kinds of advertising so my argument is having some chairs and some some items out front having a welcome sign um even having that you know Sandwich Board that says welcome we're open come on in it's inviting is not business outdo advertising and rather it is in furtherance of you know on site promoting the business that's there and welcoming people in and letting people know that we're there and I have a couple other pictures that I'd also like to share what was so you had chairs you had welcome flights and what was the third item that you just refer um uh they call a Sandwich Board sign I have a picture I can show you there's a picture it's it's there right there in the ordinance is listed as aame and which ordinance is that it's under the sign and what chapter is it that I don't have thein but it's under um it's under signs I can look it up I bring and as I stated to Mr Po it was a courtesy he was not cited because he was a new owner it was courtesy is stated in the email letting him know what the sign code stated in regards to the flag in the a frame sign and during our phone conversation I explained to him where it states in our sign code that the A-frames are not allowed outside of the central business district and I will forward that um ordinance to him once I'm back in the office and and I would be glad to read that I looked for it and couldn't find it okay attached to the no not attach but part of the May 14th correspondence from Miss beers to Mr Po there is a reference to 34-444 or 15 is that part of the sun code that's part of the in regards to the flag is that part of the sign codee so is that mean that chapter is in other words 444 you'll find the aame as can I or not I happen to have a cop of 3444 is part of division four of your code of the C code I should say and division for is intitle sign standards so I haven't looked at this completely but it seems to me that this is probably what we what the city refers to as sign code is that correct correct okay so I see that 34-444 is entitled prohibited signs and it states that the signs and sign types listed below are prohibited within the city limits shall not be erected operated or placed on any property any lawfully existing permanent sign structures or sign type that is among the prohibited signs and sign types shall be deemed a nonconforming sign subject to the provisions of 3450 noning and you refer to 15 and 15 is as you say in your email flutter signs um is this where we going to find also provision for the aame corre there's a list that goes down I don't know what letter it is but um up under prohibited signs as you go down that list I can't remember exactly what letter A frame but um if I can welcome looking for is referring to so we I'll wait for you to do that back record go ahead so you don't forget thank you I believe at the end of that provision there number 22 it talks about over a public right of play I don't think that's I don't think that's applicable to a frame side that is outside our door you are in the central business district other than that it is listed under prohibited signs which it Brees in the I think we have to go by the strict reading of the actual ordinance and think that I'll let you read it your hon uh it's it's this section section 22 begins with the word signs in on or over the public RightWay then it states other than fix projecting signs in CBD and the Redevelopment zoning District comma traffic control device signs Comm got a whole list of different safety signs signs vertical streetl banners a frame signs T frame signs and on or attached canopy signs over a public rway as allowed in this division so the exception is for signs in on or over public rights away um there may be other Provisions that Rel frame signs but this section 22 seems to be a Prohibition against signs in on or over the public RightWay and then has the exception for certain types of signs that are located in CBD or Redevelopment sing districts and so I would imagine that would apply when you've got a cute little restaurant and you want to put your aframe slime in the walk in the sidewalk in the public right away but we have our SL right next to our F or not in not in the public right of way right so I think that's I think that's the distinction so you're saying it's not in the right of way I'm saying it's not in the public right of way it's contemplated by that ordinance that's correct there's a sidewalk that is next to the street between the the building and the street um I'm not willing to go so far as to say it would apply there but I would understand I would understand the argument if we put the sign in the sidewalk right sign next to our front door which is not in the public right of way is contemplated by that ordinance um I miss beers are you prepared to testify about the aame or the flag so from the definition that I received from the planed and zon dor what defition of what the defition oh for aame signs is what I was told that if they are not in the central business district they were not allowed okay I will get clarification from her in regards to section 22 if there is any other Provisions throughout the prohibited signs that states because I've always been told her inter a is that they are not allowed at all if they are not in the central business district okay and that's what I don't want to take the time right now to try to read this section on the prohibited signs um I would I think that where this is going is that well let me stop allow I'm going to allow you to finish and then if mever has any comments to um then at that point we decide you know where we going understood thank you again trying to I'm just trying to find the bounds of of what is or isn't prohibited which is where the conversation started and again miss beers was very helpful in in providing the information that she had and I appreciate that very much but I I think a challenge here is enforcement is operating on interpretations that are being told as opposed to um you know when you look at the plain language of the actual rule whether or not we're in violation and and why this matters we're not trying to be difficult but I can also tell you that why this matters is and I can show you some pictures that help make the point is this makes a very big difference for our business and for lots of businesses up and down the streets of Jacksonville Beach because it's the between our store looking open and our store looking closed and and I would like to show you some pictures that that sort of illustrate and they're they're just different pictures from if I may approach yes and and I want to approach as well I'm just going to show some different pictures theore this is the front of our store with a nice welcome sign a little board right at the FR chair we have found I know this is anotal but but observably more customers come into our store when we have something outside walk the right otherwise it looks like this we take signs put theair we look close and our bus go Ober I don't think that's what these ordinances were intended to do and I don't think the ordinance also states that if every business was to put all their merchandise outside that would increase their CES that's not the look Jacksonville Beach wants in regards to merchandise your signage is what lets people know that your store that you're there um so that's I'm that's fine but if that's the case then the grocery store publics will put all their merchandise outside saying oh we're going to increase our Steak sales because we put stakes and other perishables outside I think that's what the beach wants invting people welcome to some of our wreath on the the chair's not out there but it's welcome this is what it looks like if weing everything your honor can I also State what I also mentioned to Mr Po is that he is allowed six 10 events per year for outdoor sales where he can apply for a tent per minute he can have outdoor sale events where he can place his merchandise outside during that time period that was also right expressed to him okay so um I don't really need those I mean do you want me to keep them sure um the um but I do want to ask we've now talked about the section in the code that deals with the zoning District itself that's 342 yes we've also talked about part four sign code Provisions at 444 and now I have a question about outdoor merchandise is that a separate section of the code what I was given intered by our director of the planning and zoning department was this section which is 34 34 341 the prohib use the business of outdoor advertising and there looking in her interpretation the merchandise is considered Outdoor advertising okay thank you okay back to you Mr thank you your honor and I know this is I know this has gone long but I have a few points I want to make it again it it it's in the interest of this this has a real and tangible impact on our on our business as you can see the way it looks from the photos and anecdotally uh there's a there's a real on customers coming into the store depending on whether or not we put some things out and show that we're open and look welcoming versus look basically closed and then um so on my first point I think there's not a violation by the by the photos that the city has presented I think these things do not constitute a violation of 34 342k nor of the prohibited signs which I meant to bring up to as well I think you have it in front of you but the the the the sign restriction that you read that talks about flutter signs feather signs streamers balloons wind signs wind activated banners cold air Inflatables penants and other fixed aerial signage used for commercial advertising I'm going to ask you another question about yes um nor of prohibited signs um and 444 and you mentioned the a frame what about the welcome flag correct so I don't think that the A-frame is a violation for the reasons we've just discussed and that's what I was just getting to so we're right on the same page the provision 34444 that that I just read from the end of that of that section 15 says used for commercial advertising I don't think that a welcome flag is contemplated by used for commercial advertising it's welcoming people in like a welcome mat it is if it was a a another T Gregory sign then maybe that would be a different kind of Distinction but I don't think that that applies to a welcome flag just like I don't think it applies to and I have a picture of if I which one the welcome flag app I'll bring it up to you 34444 I got that which subsection the American flag is not AOL 15 15 yes so I let me ask you about that position on the one hand you're saying you need these outside in order to to promote your business order to have a better business to you know and without those it will impact negatively on your business how then do you say that this particular uh flag the fluttering flag all of a sudden now is is not commercial advertising when you just said that without it it's going to we need it there to help our business there's a distinction between um making the store inviting and welcoming and alerting people that the store is open and advertising I couldn't buy an ad for a welcome I I suppose but it would hardly be advertising to to Simply have an ad that says welcome right it would have to say you know more to really be an advertising my view I that's a distinction real purpose to attract business just as you just said to attract people to come into it's certainly it is to attract people to come into the store to welcome them in um okay there's something else you want to show us yes I I showed this picture and I think she said uh American flag not it's hard to imagine that the welcome flag isolation that's atin draw sorry so what you're saying is this what you're saying just for clearity yes is this is your argument that if American flags are Exempted then fluttering banners should also be I'm not arguing for a fluttering banner I think the welcome flag is a flag and I don't I don't think that that I'm not sure that that falls under the same category as a fluttering Banner but do you think it I I think it's a welcome flag it's a flag Banners are I would imagine when you have you know so now we're arguing what is not it's when activated it's a when activated flag I will concede that if that flag was said sale or some other more advertising lingo than welcome then perhaps it would fall under that restriction my position is that I think welcome is more like a welcome M and it's not a violation it's not really an advertisement other than to say we're open um and that's the point on that on that one so on so in some on our first point the conditions presented by the city respectfully we contend that is not a violation of the statute cited 34 342k um or a violation of any of the ordinances cited in the prior order also respectfully I I disagree that the the the I'll skip that argument the next point I wanted to make was about selective enforcement could I clarify you just said you're withdrawing that argument no no no what I was about to say I'm sorry I no I'm not I'm not withdrawing anything I just said I started to say another point and I decided not to that's what I meant could you go back to your statement then about order is that the one you're oh I started to say I started no no so the prior order list I understand you don't think it's a violation at 342k correct okay what's next I also do not think it is a violation of um any of the ordinances listed in the prior order third which is 3 34 342b C and D which don't restrict those are about permitted uses okay um for example B6 talks about uh being a home furniture store being a permitted use you don't see anything in B that would be by the circumstances presented as of I guess it was May 2nd is is the date issue likewise C inde appear not to be Point yeah my next point is about selective enforcement and the point there is and I have many many pictures I can show you but I I I won't wor you with that you can drive up and down um Third Street and see as Miss B understands there's many stores with similar signs outside and and I'd like to ask him speakers I kind of didn't finish I'd like to ask how many violations of 34 342k were issued in 20124 so far I don't have the exact number but if you want copy of every single letter that I sent to every single business that had outdoor sales in display I'll be more than welcome to send that to you because I believe you did an open records request so in that open records request if you want to specify the items that you would like we can give you everything that you're requesting and I can include every letter that was sent to every business um that was cited for the same thing okay and and that is correct I did submit an open records request because I do want to understand more of how this particular provision is being enforced um and I think that's important to actually get to the heart of the selective enforcement argument so with that outstanding when did you when did you file your public records request last week last week I think it was on Thursday but I just got the notice of this hearing the Friday prior um so is it I'll ask you Mr has has it been responded to yet I got a response indicating that they received it and that I would get a further response it also needs to specify exactly what he's requ I'm sure the clerk will be dealing with those aspects to clarify oh because I don't from my understanding it didn't specify exactly he just wanted everything in regards to this case it didn't specify in regards to the selective enforcement that he's referring to that would include other businesses that were cited for the same thing so you didn't ask for those records that public records requested not specifically asked for um records related to other citations I think that's question to was how manys have been sent or actions taken in regards to 342k that didn't have anything to do with your um open record request that wasn't specified in your public record request it was not that's correct and then um so however so I heard say that numerous ones she doesn't know exactly the number so that's you said do you know approximately how many I mean are we talking over five or over 50 do you have a range that you have a a guess it could range from possibly 10 to 15 okay if not more okay do you recall this is right across the street from our scho it's um five wine and craft fine wine and craft Bird right across the street from and this picture was taken on the same day this picture was taken on May 2nd the day that that this violation is an issue did you did you also send these folks a letter for their A-frame sign I did not see that I'd like to submit this picture your honor it's and it's my testimony that this is a picture that was taking the same day I yes is there a date on the picture there is not a date on the picture you're un also did you who took this picture um I believe that's a picture I took you believe did so let me look at that picture one second this is a picture I it was a couple days later it was after I received the citation so it would have been on you didn't receive the citation I me I'm okay the notice here didn't specify anything that was just a conversation we had over the phone and through email I misspoke when I said same day that that picture was taken um I believe it was Monday or Tuesday of last week which I can look at the date I don't recall what that would have been I can look at my 13th and 14th approximately yes it was we received you took this picture yes I took that picture and do you know what what's the address of this place I know it is immediately across Third Street from our store I can look up the address pretty easily and is it and what do you want to say about this well that there's also an A-frame there on the uh right outside the door and at at this point I don't know whether or not they've also received a letter it sounds like Miss Bieber says that and I understand you're just one person I I get that but how do you come to know about violations is it based on complaints we're complaint driven or if it's something that I've actually seen okay so in the in the with with TJ with with TS it was a complaint there was a initial complaint in regards to outdoor sales where during Co other businesses were cited for outdoor display and sales and they did exactly what you are doing well what about this business what about this business and your business along with several other businesses were pointed out for the same violation when was the first time my understand from the records You' shared with me is that the first time you cited T Gregory Imports for this sort of a violation was in September of 2023 is that correct I believe so okay do you know who you received the complaint through T reinfor in front of me but I did get it was a complaint okay I want to say it was one of the yoga um stores that is down um she is located near monkey uncle is it possible that the complaint came from um someone at te plus outdoor furniture um I'm not no it was a female he was cited for outside display he was a new business he was not aware of Jack Beach city ordinance once he was cited he immediately complied to violation because what's interesting is that t plus outdoor furniture there a store that's you know up the street and you know they sell te Furniture like we sell te furniture and it seems that shortly after um according to sunbiz they opened up in about June July of 2023 and it was shortly after that that we began receiving complaints about having some furniture outside so I was wondering if that might be who the complaint was from you don't recall if it was I just stated there was a yoga store that is down there I want to say Uncle um or it's nearly a s um store that was cited for outo outdoor display she had a clothing rack outside okay um I think we need to wrap up substan amount of time and I appreciate I think that I'm a little about the efficacy of of the argument about selective enforcement um uh I just have some concerns about whether that's really um you know part and parcel of this particular uh hearing or or relevant to this particular hearing I think the point is I know I gathered a little bit extra I'm sorry inter you if you were continuing my apologies you know and and the conjecture even you have said it seems this or it seems that um you know that the conjecture that this is your competition filing complaints um you know we don't have any evidence of that this um and I'm not sure that the evidence that you have produced is one sign that has a an A-frame sign out um not clear to me whether or not this business has been cited in the past um it's not clear whether it's beened so um and we do have evidence Our Testimony that says that the city enforces their codes through complaint driven process or by a visual observation I guess I visual observation by the code enforcement officer you know I think that given that I have some skepticism about you know this is Select somehow you're being targeted by the city that's that is selective enforcement that you're being targeted by the city in of this type of of notice of of a potential violation so you know without more at this point um I'm just telling you that it doesn't seem that there's sufficient evidence to to say that the city is at this point in time selectively enforcing it it provisions um so I'll let you continue and I'd like to try to wrap this up in the next few minutes yes quite of clarification I don't have any reason to think that the city of Jacksonville has it in for my store the city of Jacksonville Beach has an in for my store but I do think that the process of being complaint driven lends to arbitrary capricious enforcement because it lends itself to um to competitors targeting each other for for example I don't know and I'm not going to go out on a Lim with conjecture but I I thought there were fair questions to ask I didn't make the argument that I don't have the evidence to support at this time that that's where those complaints came from so I was asking the question to see if Miss beavers knew um we have some reason to believe that it may have been um but that would be here sayfe if I were to down that road and I really don't want to attract from the main arguments I do think that it's there's a process first which is why I addressed it first and it took as long as it did you don't think there's been a violation you don't think that the circumstances exhibited on May 2nd violated the ordinance cited or another ordinance but that's not really relevant it's did we violate the ordinance or the order um which cites certain ordinances that also weren't violated by the the items that were outside um I also procedurally I'm sorry go ahead I think you when you answer that question that there's not a violation we don't get to the selective enforcement if the court were to find that there was a violation then I do think that the selective enforcement may have legs but would require further Discovery we only got notice of this I think still less than two weeks ago um of this hearing so since you brought it up what do you think would constitute selective enforcement selective enforcement would would be if the selective enforcement as I understand the the the defition essentially is that if the if the city is aware of similar violations and is not enforcing against those similar violations the same way it doesn't necessarily mean targeting although sometimes that that is the circumstance um I come from for the past 10 years I've been representing Community associations in various forms of litigation in s of enforcement actually comes up a lot in those contexts and it's not it's not simar from this circumstance it's not necessarily targeting but it is if you're if they're aware of certain violations in in treating those violations differently without some without due cause then it's arbitrary and selective um so the example I showed and I believe I've got a stack of other photographs of similar situations but understand that Miss beavers is only one person and it takes a lot of people to uh to tackle enforcement I get that but at the same time if it's just complaint driven then that leads to arbitrary enforcement because it's not necessarily the city it's basically an abusive process the city is being you know complaints are coming to the City by somebody targeting somebody else right so that is a possibility and that would be something that could be explored through further discovery which if the court found that there was a violation then I think that it would be appropriate to have an opportunity for further discovery on that but the key argument is they don't think it's a violation as we've discussed and just for clarity you don't think it's a violation of 342k correct you also don't think that it's a violation of the sections that were cited to 342 B is in boy c as in Charlie or D is in David that were cited in the prior order um And in regards to 444 you don't think that any of the signs or the a are violations are are not included in the prohibited correct section is there anything else check Myck I believe that covers M do you want to add anything at this time no um I think that um there were a number of items that were referred to in regards to the Land Development code um we do not at this time have any the person or the anyone from the planning department to in regards to what those provisions mean and because it is the planning director if I remember correctly it is not well what I can say is it's not miss beavers who interprets the Land Development code it's probably either somebody like the city manager or the assistant city manager or the planning director or somebody in the planning department is the one who interprets those Provisions so in light of that what I'm going to do I'm going to withhold my decision however what I would like to do is bring this back in June and ask the city to have the planning director or the appropriate person who interprets the Land Development code and the provisions that we've been talking about either you know and when I say what we've been talking about is you know the 342 um it's also the 344 it's also the sale of or the display of merchandise out outside the building which has been discussed here today um and there may be other sections that are relevant to this that you know is is shown by the May by the May photographs that Miss bber has put into the record so um I think that uh I think that that would be um the appropriate thing to do at this point and if we can't do it in June which is the datee your owner can I also recommend something as well absolutely you can I'll I'll let both of you okay speak to it June 26th June the 26th it would be a Wednesday um yes please you may and also you can obviously it could depend upon what if somebody from the planning Department's even available Christian yeah I would I would Heather the director would not be available but Christian prob might be I would I would of course couch it that their availability you know would be necessary check my okay I put most of these things on my calar the 26 sounds correct I've got it on my um okay you both want to say something about well I was just going to recommend that until we come back in June and the code is interpreted that the store remain in compliance because what I don't want to happen which is has happened in the past when other stores see them putting all their stuff and merchandise out it's a domino effect and all the other stores are going to be like oh we can put ours out too so until this June 26 hearing I'm asking that the merchandise and the A-frame sign not be displayed okay likewise I'm is that acceptable I would actually ask for the opposite I would that we that you know well as I expressed it's it's impactful on our Sports not be able to put anything outside our front door um and maybe maybe Miss beavers and I can have a conversation about what would we're try to decide before that right what would be acceptable he can apply for a a tent permit if he wants to put his stuff out in between that time so then that way if another business sees that I can say well right now he has applied for a tent permit that allows him to have his merchandise out for three days six times a year do you have is there another option here Mr my request would be that the compromise if we're looking at this picture here would be that we can have items in the A-frame sign up by the front door under under that roof way that chair that's out in the driveway I'm I'm fine with not there's a chair out in the drive in in the parking zone I'm I'm fine with not putting something there as as a a temporary compromise while we sort this out but it I I I think it's a reasonable compromise to say we could have a couple items outside our front door it's going to cause a domino effect I see it every [Music] day sure I'm just trying to find a happy meeting between now and June 26 I think that Miss be makes a very valid has a very valid concern um I don't know that the three days six times a year is going to accomplish because we've got more than three days between now I also think Mr that you are um you're asking the special magistry and the city to let you do something that technically the city thinks is not lawful between now and June 26 so I'm trying to find a compromise for this short period of time and I'm feeling a little bit like should I even be attempting to do this but I I want to find a happy medium because quite frankly You by finding a happy medium for this in between time um it means that any fine that you may incur if that's where we end up um would be told during this period of time if you would be willing to find to meet a compromise I would suggest that you definitely don't have the chair in the par nothing in the parking L around your entrance I think you could have the show me showed us in one photograph I think that you could um have the a frame sign adjacent to the door just like this is sh I think that temporarily and all of this is temporary um I don't think you should have the chair out there in front of the front door and I also don't think that you should have the fluttering of Welcome ban it allows you to have what you described as something out there that allows you and your Bel um to in your belief I'm not it's not my belief it's your belief that shows that the business is on so you know I have a real problem with the chair out there um with a I with with on it you know it's clearly merchandise trying to sell so I have a concern about that I have a concern very much with the fluttering whatever you want to call it flag planner whatever it's called and right now he did change it from the Welcome flag to the American flag so the American flag is allowed in con absolutely has nothing to do American flag so what you're saying is no chair no flag but right now to a frame sign as long as it's where it's located here and Sh these pictures adjacent to your entrance door I think that now this is this has to be an agreement you either have to agree you don't have to agree you can say no that's not really acceptable you can offer another um um but you know this welcome flag um and and that's the welcome flag and that other one that I saw in the picture that is um you know tall and kind of I don't know how to describe it red no it's it's this one it's it's the other one was American flag that he showed you a picture of that's right here there's a picture in here somewhere that's the American it's the American black and no there was another one maybe it was in your it waser we only we only have the one welcome that's the only wel it was just the American flag and wel sign it's been long it's been a long a long hearing I understand but that's the only one so I can you go back through your yeah this is all of them so when the case started it was an American FL I thought that I saw something one of those tall they're like I know you're talking yeah he didn't have that yeah it's just been the flags okay so it's not a band okay oh you're see this is the blue one go ahead I think what you're describing is what I think of as a flutterfly it's one of those that goes into dirt and and it's like it's kind of shaped like that I have some of those we put them out in St Augustine because we were allowed to we have that's the welcome flag that we're talking about is just that one right there which is why I compare it to the American flag because it Go the same place it's the same size it just says welcome that that that was the comparison I was drawn um so coming back what do you got you know is between now I between now and june6 you said you were available 26 I do not I do not have a conflict that I'm aware of on June 26th okay fair so and I started with this and I want to end with this more well very very much I want to reach an amicable resolution to Jacksonville Beach and be you know continue to be great and and good C Business citizens in this community my is the store's operated this way for over 20 years I just bought it didn't know when I bought it that this order existed or that this issue existed I just learned about it and it's they never advised you about this citation issue I didn't know about that I didn't know about that order the employees are say the same employee Christmas so I will say I know like we have the same manager and I had a conversation with him and he knew it was not allowed so he knew I have the same manager and there's and and there's discussions about what you can and can't do I was not aware of the order until Miss Beaver sent me the order um so what about the compromise so so um I I'd be happy to reach a compromise you're saying we can put out so I didn't even know that the wreaths frankly are the wreaths considered a violation also okay well you showed them in your pict I did and I just wanted to make sure that you know that you know re are seasonal those are seasonal items okay so reefs the A-frame board and obviously we can continue to have the American flags out and you're saying we can't have even one chair no I would request one chair we can't compromise on that what if it's going to be a domino effect of everything that I have done to notify all other businesses that they cannot have anything out that they mer that they sell there's a tag on it or not right if it is merchandise that they s some cannot buy no because then he would have to apply for outdoor seating so it's it it it it is a lot it is a lot to how about this to this period of time I'm just because everything that I've done to stop all the other businesses from doing again one it takes one person to drive by and say you told me I couldn't have this out here so why are you allowing them to do it and I can't say well the magistrate said they can do it for 30 days Magistrate perod but then that selective enforcement then because then somebody else will say you're that selective enforcement you told me I couldn't do it and when I tell you I went all up and down Third Street on anything that was not within the central business district got a letter who had from tires to any type so your position is that you can't have no ma'am just for because it takes one day one day for one person to drive by and make it a issue that they were told that they could not do this so why are T Gregory allowed to do it well I think that what you're you could say we are in enforcement and then what they're going to do is okay well I'm going to put my stuff out as well and that's what they do I every single time that's what they're going to do and I just it it it's like you're running in circles because Chris said the same thing his manager he saw Dollar General Dollar General change managers the manager did not know that they could not have charcoal and swimming pools out so once they once I told them they brought it in but just like Chris saw it he was like well they have it out but the new manager didn't know so what did Chris do he put the furniture back out it's it's it's a game of pink p with these businesses when one see it the next one's going to say well I'm going to do it too and they do it so I don't think he should be allowed to put anything out okay thank you I can't I think I'm in I can't tell you Mr Po what to do sure in light of the concerns that the city has expressed which you know I understand but I also understand your position I think the better option for the special magistrate is simply to leave it in your hands do what you think is appropriate the best for for you and you know we'll see you on June the 26 I'm agreeable to reaching the compromise that you suggested I I I tried for the chair if the chair is not agreeable if we can do the the the what I think you said the reads are not a violation so the reads are okay if we can have the A-frame sign out until the 26th I mean I don't I don't want to be crossr with the city I and I and I hope even though you probably feel like I'm trying to create a hardship for you I promise you I'm not I reached out right away to try to what constitutes a violation and when I read the ordinances as we've discussed at length here these are not violations of the ordinances cited so for us to be restrained by ordinances that don't seem applicable for another month and a half is a hardship I'm I'm not going to I I just I don't to put anybody in a worse position either party you or the city I just don't I probably went beyond what you know what my authority would be anyway to to help the parties during this in Period of time so I'm going to withdraw the thought of you know something that could be done and just allow the business owner to conduct yourself as you think is appropriate for this inter period of time um there was something else that was my oh I would urge both both the city and you Mr to talk to each other between now and June the 26th schedule a meeting to speak with the plan and his zon Department specifically I think that would be an appropriate thing again I'm not going to advise you or tell you what to do um but I would encourage dialogue um to better understand um you know the so that both parties can better understand where they're coming from um I would than for you to come back in June with you know a a description that works for both of you and that um so that Miss beavers can then tell me like you heard earlier parties in compliance you um but I do think that it would beh beho both parties um to have a a good discussion about the um the interpretation about the provisions that are in the code that are applicable maybe Beyond 342k right beyond that the other things the other Provisions the outdoor merchandise the um you know uh the um the signs um and and then this issue about obviously 342k so um I'm I think that unless there's any questions um I will I'm not I'm not even going to issue any kind of even well I guess I could issue a simple order just says that the matter is going to be continued and will be on June the 26th okay and you can also put that um a meeting be scheduled between now on June 26 with the plan and en zoning department and with the Fire Marshall and with the fire yes is that acceptable yes I would love to meet with folks and try to get the sort out Marsh planning department ands contine and I okay okay um that concludes this matter um and I was just going to say and I thought it was going to be all the business tax that was going to take my uh thank you very much both of you for your attention to this and I appreciate the um the efforts and and the positions of of both the city and Mr Pop and I think that concludes this particular matter and that concludes all my cases for that's all your that's all my Cas I think we can close thank you very much for your time and consideration