##VIDEO ID:qjI6Q91wAAY## for uh good evening everyone um my name is Eric buth I am the rent leving administrator for the board meeting tonight today is the third day of October in the year 2024 this meeting of the Jersey City rent leveling board which uh was scheduled for 6:00 p.m. it is now 609 and I will conduct a roll call for the commencement of this meeting Alexander Hamilton here Michael Brown here Danon Hill here Sullivan Johnson here James eock here Elder pinut here okay we have all board members present with the exception of one we have a quorum on behalf of the rent leveling board chair Danon Hill and board Commissioners in accordance with the New Jersey public laws of 1975 chapter 231 the open public meetings act also known as the Sunshine Law adequate notice of this meeting has been provided by the posting on the bullton board of the first floor City Hall in the form of a schedule of city meetings and caucuses for the calendar year of 2024 as well as a filing of that schedule with the office of the city city clerk yeah we had we had it the Special meeting sorry this is I should uh add that this is a special meeting uh the agenda was similarly disseminated on Tuesday September 24th 2024 with a jersey journal and posted on the office of landlord tenant relations web page that same day uh so I can certify as to the total compliance with the Sunshine Law there are two cases on the agenda tonight um and we also have but like a third matter which is swearing in a new hearing officer uh lendy Salazar let's do that first okay um tonight uh I just ask when you come up to speak uh um for everyone that is uh just make sure that the microphone is on and you're speaking into the microphone um first I'm sorry we want to do do the uh swearing in first and then yeah we we can do that yes of course uh so we swear in the hearing officer uh lendy if you could just go up uh do you have the uh oath yeah or do you want to go to the microphone go to microphone go to microphone just as long as you into the mic yeah for the yeah no that mic right there okay I I state your name ly Salazar do solemnly swear do solemnly swear or affirm that I will Faithfully or affirm that I will faithfully and partially and partially and justly and justly perform all the duties perform all the duties of the Bureau of the rent leveling of the Bureau of the rent leveling according to the city according to the city of Jersey City of Jersey City rent Control Ordinance rent control ordinance chapter 260 chapter 260 to the best of my ability to the best of my ability so help me God so help me God thank you congratulations she's president um motion do we have the we have to do a motion right to accept her or no no no you just have to swear her in um so the two items on the agenda tonight the first one is a vacancy Capital Improvement appeal for the property uh 79 Randolph Avenue okay and uh board chair I defer to you yeah all right 79 Randol Mr Demitri gestos yes am I saying it correctly chair if you could just please make sure you're speaking into the microphone sorry about that thank you okay okay we this is claim number VCI 2023 d64 for 79 randor Avenue for vacancy Capital Improvement appeal yes GL all right Demitri galeto name g o l e TS o yes I do okay you want to well so basically I had a uh renovation done and within the renovation there was a bathroom that was renovated and the breakdown on the bathroom came out to 13,000 and change for my contractor and the inspector came in and said it should have only been um I I believe six or $7,000 for a renovation it was a $7,000 deduction um based on average bathroom Renovations within the internet 165 for regular bathroom renovation so mine was well below the amount of 165 and I have two estimates from two different contractors one at 178 and the other one at 155 for the exact same bathroom renovation within the same [Music] building so that's pretty much my case I feel 13,000 is way below what contractors charge for bathrooms from what I've been told from numerous contractors okay any commission do have any questions U well actually my questions are not going to be posed to you sir I actually wanted to see if we'd have an opportunity to speak to the inspector as well so we can have a better understanding of his his fees and the position that he was taking I have one question oh one one you you just mentioned estimates were the estimates included I don't I don't know if we had them in our package um I submitted no I got the estimates after I after I was appealing it I didn't know I had to get to to okay I submitted the the this within the state of New Jersey where it says the minimum average bedom is 165 up to $40,000 pretty much yeah it's a wide range I believe that was submitted oh yeah six well something was submitted that said 6,500 to 25,500 which is an unworkable range for us to look at MH no I think that I don't believe that's what was submitted I believe oh then yeah then there's can range from 165 to 695 16 16,000 and up is is the one low in bathroom renovation it says here low in bathroom renovation that was one off the internet second one says for an average full rip and replace bathroom in M New Jersey will range from 165 to 695 yeah that's a that's a huge range so that's why we have to but I'm at 13 so I'm below what the 16 is and then the two estimates I got from two separate contractors within New Jersey for the EXA same exact bathroom because it's within the same building the one gentleman gave me a estimate of 175 and then the second one gave me an estimate of 15 five that's so above what the original contractor charged me to do the renovation pretty much they said if if the inspector can do for 9,000 he'll have a bunch of jobs for him to do at that price so um I if I could just interject for one minute um so what he is referencing was not part of the file and was not submitted to the bureau um for into evidence there is a time frame you have to provide that to the tenants that are there and to the bureau uh 10 days in advance before the hearing so that we can provide that to you um so I just wanted to make the record clear that he is referencing items that were not part of the application okay no that was part she told me it was it was submitted not the two estimat from the separate contractors but the other stuff from the internet with two estimates were not submitted the two estimates were please raise right hand you testimony about this proceeding the truth the whole truth theuth I do thanks the two estimates were not submitted yeah with for evidence for this but what was submitted was the reference from the state where state it referenced from 16,5 to 6905 that was submitted to show that that's what an average bathroom costs I just got the two estimates from two separate contracts I didn't know I had to submit that the other two estimates okay but I did submit the other stuff from the from the state off of Google what the average bathroom cost to renovate okay you want to speak to the over and the submission and the submission yeah well yeah actually that was going to be one of we what we're here to do is try to see if we can come up with something that's fair okay and to a point if you have some documentation that's yet to be submitted because it wasn't submitted within the appropriate time frame you know one of my suggestions is perhaps maybe you want to go and resubmit that for an additional review okay because as it stands right now we have to base our decisions on what we're looking at and if we have documentation that is not included in our package then you know we're hard pressed to really give that consideration understandable um so the original deduction that the inspector had done it wasn't me it was one of the other inspectors was um he deducted uh or I'm sorry he allowed $ 68007 and he deducted $6,700 um which basically you know he's saying the bathroom should have only cost 6,800 to me that is a a very low number uh the gentleman didn't provide secondary um estimates but if I was going out and doing it I would have granted at least a $10,000 allotment for the bathroom and the only reason it wouldn't have been higher and closer to his original amount is that he didn't replace the bathtub um what he did is reglaze the bathtub um to be fair to the tenants and the owner I would recommend that we allow $10,000 for his bathroom to me that's fair and reasonable for a bathroom renovation uh to me again it only wasn't a total renovation because he didn't replace the bathtub um if the board's agreeable to that rather than to keep postponing it and to let him come back and provide that documentation again that's that's up to you gentlemen and ladies um but if it was me I would have granted a $10,000 allotment for the bathroom I don't know if the owner is acceptable or agreeable to that and try to you know resolve this and just finish it I mean that's that's it's basically splitting it in half from what the inspector said to what the estimates that the owner got and what he claimed he paid for it you know actually his estimates were much higher right yes then replacing them well that's that's why I said it wasn't a complete bathroom renovation um otherwise it I wouldn't say it was worth 10,000 it would have been worth more like 12 13 right maybe a little higher but to me that that's the difference between a full gut renovation and a renovation anybody else what would be the diff sorry go what would be the differential in terms of like the rent increase from the 10,000 to the 6,000 jeez I I have have to whip out the calculator and sorry um I should say so if if there is an adjustment um and there is a tenant now present in this unit um whatever uh adjustment is made will not be applied to that tenant it will be applied to the base rent of the unit uh just because now the tenant going you know is has already has a lease and has agreed to a rent that so that rent cannot be increased with with a sech charge it could only be uh increased with a cost of living increase then my question but if there is a change to the increase it will be applied to the base rent if there is there a tenant present in this year's he's leaving actually this month he's going back to Brooklyn okay so okay then well then it would be applied to the baseer now that tenant leaves once that tenant leaves then you can apply this increase well it would actually be a decrease I'm sorry decrease I'm sorry yes right yeah it would be a decrease in the rent okay all right okay anybody else two micophone yeah yeah just speaking into the microphone commissioner you give out two numbers you get you give 1300 we got 10,000 and he says it can cost 60,000 6 no to go for 10,000 what happen if he Chang his mind and he goes for on numbers you understand what I'm saying well no right right this is going no going to set all okay well back back to Eric's point though we're working without these things in evidence yeah we have Tom Tom's testimony that's what I said that he didn't submit those things um that's up to you as the board whether you want to accept it reject it my suggestion was that you know I I thought the inspector's estimate was kind of low and I was looking to split the difference between what the gentleman paid for it and what the inspector said that's that's up to you you gentlemen yeah that that may be fair but we have you know I can't calculate that in my head what the new rent will be or anything like that you know so you know we're just working based on your testimony now Tom so would it be in the best interest just to have them submitted over resubmit and start from there cuz okay right now we don't have the we don't have the new uh numbers that's going to be added to the situation versus if I do it right now it's going to be totally different than what you're talking about yeah that's yeah you could change his mind also this may not need to come back to the rent leveling board if it's accepted right right it's accepted it wouldn't come back to rent leveling board yes uh absolutely right okay so yeah I think it's kind of beyond our scope right now right uh to try to make a calculation or decide if that's right I mean you know if he only has to submit back to the bureau then it'll probably be accepted based on your recommendation and that'll be the end of it we you know hope okay so we would need a motion to motion to close yes I'm sorry so uh yeah so um you you would need a motion to close to CL and then a motion adopt the hear in offic right so so you'd have to so again whoever wants to make the motion and then second it so motion to close Okay this of the meeting second okay and as second in by uh commissioner e coock okay motion to it all all in favor in favor all in favor I okay motion to adopt the hearing officer's opinion based on um speaking to the mic oh yeah I'm sorry motion to um adopt the hearing officers position on the information that that was presented to us that um we don't have that would be sent back to the office to for approval okay so we have a a motion from uh board chair to uh remand back to the bureau uh do I have a second second okay that was a quick second from commissioner Hamilton uh all in favor I okay unanimous thank you all right thank thanks go back Bureau Bureau of rent level with the facts you know Tom Tom's new estimate you know what it should be because we can't work with numbers in the air if he did Rec I wouldn't if he he was going to do it right here well no it's no but he was going to do it right here yeah let go back to the back to the buau and do it right because then like you saiding if they do it we might not even have a lot of things in the air he might just goad and say okay no problem we don't you know we don't have these facts and evidence or anything like that agree agree uh Commissioners are you ready for the next item on our agenda okay okay legal rent petition property at 506 Central Avenue landlord is uh tej dip LLC Vishnu Patel good evening Matthew lammerts I'm Council for the owner of 506 508 Central Avenue LLC Tes dip LLC um this is our appeal that we brought uh of the determination of the uh rent leveling administrator finding that the building is subject to the Run Control Ordinance of Jersey City um this is a the new construction building there's a state regime that provides for exemption from rent control for 30 years um and the purpose of that regime is to encourage uh construction new construction and to allow owners to finance that um in support of our appeal we do have three witnesses that are intended to testify there's really two issues that are before the board uh New Jersey courts have found that not perfect compliance with the statute which requires that a notice be sent to the tenants at the Inception of the tency and then also uh that a notice claiming the rent control exemption be sent to the building department of the local municipality but it does require what's called substantial compliance so the landlord's contending here that there was substantial compliance with those two applications and I have uh Venit Patel a representative of the landlord to testify um both to his efforts to um provide the notice of the rank control exemption to the building department of Jersey City And as far as um the notices that were provided to the tenants which as in our papers were admittedly belated but they were provided there's no tenant at the building at this point in time that wasn't notified of the fact that the landlord intends to claim that new construction um exemption from the ordinance I also have Joseph maone uh who is the landlord's uh expediter uh in connection with the uh building and permit applications that testifies to delivery of those documents to the building department because there were some issues with submissions in an online portal and then finally a porva Patel who would also testify with um his role in terms of the development of the property and uh communication with officials from Jersey City regarding um the status of the property so with that uh I would like to call venite Patel as a witness is and I do have this prepared uh uh as like a direct examination I don't know if he's the attorney you want you want me to just share the microphone with the witness or to be sworn in uh state your name and and spell it please vinet Patel VI n i t last name Patel p a t l okay truth truth truth yes don't are we on are we on there we are all right Mr Patel uh what do you do for a living I own and operate a chain of supermarkets with my family and uh do a little bit of uh residential and Commercial Real Estate Management and can you describe for the board what experience you have in the development and renting of residential real estate uh this project was actually my first experience in development but I uh been uh renting some um older inventory units uh for about three or four years prior and you're familiar with the property located at 506 Central Avenue LLC or 506 Central Avenue Jersey City yes are you affiliated with Tes dip LLC uh yes is that the owner of that property yes and what's your affiliation um I was appointed by the ownership to uh oversee the development of the property from the old Supermarket to what it stands currently um when did tesp LLC first become interested in developing that property uh 2017 sometime and can you describe the steps that you took as far as retaining an attorney an architect Etc uh yeah so we hired um lla Architects Lee LaVine and attorney Jim Burke both that of Hoboken when you initially submitted your zoning and planning application how many units were you seeking to build at that property uh 20 units originally uh do you know if there were any issues with respect to the height of the building in connection with the zoning application yes so we were actually in a flow through lot the central side being in R1 and the Cambridge Side being in R3 so because of the height variance of maximum of three levels in the R3 we had to go for uh variances we met with the RNA and WPA neighborhood groups numerous times uh eventually uh we came to a plan that appeased the whole community and were eventually granted permission for the 20 units for the planning board uh did you have any conversations with anyone from the Jersey City Council regarding that expansion the expansion of the number of units yes we had conversations with councilman Yun uh through uh David Diaz what were the substance of those conversations um actually when we demoed the building after the original 20 unit um building had been approved uh we came to the realization that the adjacent building the bicycle shop on Central Avenue was actually in terrible condition and was uh leaning on us for support for unknown amount of years so our original plans that were approved were actually scrap for a limited amount of time until we figured out what we could do um the the cost the addition additional costs were just too great to continue with the current project uh we met with councilman Yun um and he came up with a suggestion to add five more units and they would support us fully if uh we were to make a couple of those units affordable and when you say affordable what do you mean by that uh 80% medium uh medium income housing affordable units out of the 25 units we were required to uh deem two of them so there are two uh units in the property that are essentially restricted in rent to a certain amount based off of yes Ami correct okay and the just to be clear those additional units that you were granted that was directly related to your agreement to have some affordable housing units at the property yes they actually said we will give you full support and uh make sure that this project gets approved um if you guys agree to to Affordable that was their their give and take they said hey we don't want to see a hole in the ground for uh you know years to come until a developer takes this on so uh we'll support you in that if you if you give us the two at any point in time did you have any reason to believe believe uh that anyone you were speaking with at the city would have had any reason to believe that you were building this as a rent controlled property no because no developer would agreed to affordable housing if if you know uh if it was a run controlled property um did you have anyone working as an expediter and connection with the zoning and planning application yes Joseph mazone and can you describe his responsibilities and the services that he provided to TP LLC yeah his uh tasks were um like his title says is to expeditiously navigate the building planning zoning uh as well as fire water and sewage departments and take care of all the paperwork necessary in a timely manner during the development process did you ever become aware of a requirement that you submit a rent control exemption letter to the city in order to claim the exemption yes how did you become aware of that requirement our attorney do you know if a letter was ever submitted yes so I'm showing Mr Patel a document and this is in the record as uh page three of exhibit 3 do you recognize that document Mr Patel yes uh what is it exactly is the rent control exemption letter that was submitted to the building department and who exactly drafted that letter I drafted it with the help of our attorney what steps did you initially take to submit that letter to the city so after it was done I know um our Co we were actually expecting in about a month or month and a half from this point so I called them to see if I could come drop it off at this point I think there had been a covid outbreak so they were accepting no uh inperson submittals uh they said the only way you could submit was through the online portal I went ahead and submitted the document to my point to my knowledge at that point successfully uh a couple of days later uh I think we confirmed with them try to confirm with them if they had gotten it um they said no nothing had been submitted we tried again on the portal again try to confirm they had not gotten anything um so uh we we were unsuccessful in submitting it that way um The Next Step was basically to uh give it to Joe to submit it when you say they who are you communicating with the building department um just for clarification of the record you said you submitted it to Joe yeah Joe maone Joe I'm sorry Joe maone Joe Joe Mone of expeditor okay of the this is a city agency or oh no no Joe Joe mot our exper he's also a witness today oh okay yeah along with the series of other documents he was also delivering to the building department okay just so the record is clear J is okay he's the expeditor he's not City official um how did you provide a copy of the rent control exemption letter to Mr maone uh believe it was in an envelope along with other documents the ACM panel certifications as well as the as build survey for the final Construction and did he describe to you his efforts to submit the documents to the city yes uh Mr Joe uh had a meeting with the building department it was a pre preset meeting but I believe he hit some traffic uh on the way over and there was a subcode official that was filling in for the the original subcode official and due to Mr Joe being a few minutes late I believe uh he would not see him they got into some sort of argument and Mr Joe ended up leaving the building department without successfully delivering the letters did he ever attempt to redeliver the letters uh yes I believe the next day or or two days after Mr Joe uh was able to clarify and was able to go and drop off the letters to the front desk uh uh of the building department and did Mr maone confirm that that envelope had been delivered yes he did were there other what were the other documents that were contained in there uh it was the ACM panel certifications as well as uh the as build survey okay and what was the date of that exemption letter uh February 1st 2022 was that substantially around the time that Mr maone would have hand delivered it to the city yes and did uh Tes dip LLC eventually receive a certificate of occupancy for the property yes we did which I'm now showing to Mr Patel this is uh page 66 of exhibit 4 is that a copy of the co that was issued for the property yes and you know what the data that Co was I believe it was May 4th uh 2022 so was that um r exemption letter delivered to the city to your knowledge at least 30 days prior to the issuance of the certificate of occupancy yes okay um can you describe how the owner was going to finance the construction of the property through a construction loan with Spencer Savings Bank and when was that construction loan set to come du uh August 2022 did you need to uh do a refinance in order to pay off that loan uh yes we need to get into permanent financing okay and what did you need to do in order to refinance that loan uh I believe cover our debt service ratio as well as uh reach a 90% occupancy on the building okay um was there a point in time where there were was a natural disaster that caused delays in financing and construction and leasing of the property yes I believe September of 2021 there was Hurricane Ida which caused massive flooding in the Heights and um we actually ended up with 6et of water in our underground garage which uh completely submerged the the electric panels um the Seaman's rep ended up deeming it a life risk Hazard and deemed them unusable and basically all the electric panels which were unused at this point had to be replaced uh was there an estimate of how long it would take to get the equipment necessary to do those repairs yeah it was 54 weeks for um Regular shipping and um believe 16 weeks for expedite if you paid double how did that affect the building and financing of the property uh I mean it kind of left us at a stand at 95% complete and we have to wait for these panels to arrive um once the panels arrived we quickly finished the repairs and had a short window to get the the building um you know 90 plus percent leas at a lower than market rate so then we can acquire refinance uh into our permanent financing before the rates skyrocketed which they were weekly at that Point excuse me counselor yeah can I just interrupt for one second sure roughly about how many more questions do you think you may have because I would estimate that this witness would probably testify for another 5 to 10 minutes I I'm about halfway through is sorry no yeah because I was just trying to find is it is it really going to be absolutely relevant to what we're looking at because it looks like some of the points that are here at least this is just my opinion yes that the Crux of it we kind of understand and I just don't know if we're going this is kind of minutia that I don't really know is going to be relevant to well I won't say that's probably not the right word but I think we understood in the general concerns here and I don't know if I I can try and cut to the point I mean there's another issue here that's being raised which is really that there are extremely high construction costs and the landlord was in a position where order to make the project financially viable he had to rent the they had to rent the building at below Market rents and that's due to the financing situation that they ran into and that was done on Reliance of the fact that they would be getting a 30-year exemption from the rent Control Ordinance right so all all the information you have was was already submitted to us right was already that's correct right so we kind of like got that part we read everything that you have so we're just trying to get to the point of what's the what's the the you know like the point like where where we going like if you're just going to tell me that either he did do it or he didn't do it like I mean what happened how I I'll put it this way then when you at the end of construction do you know under do you know about how much you Tes dip LLC put in in terms of its own capital and how much it borrowed to complete the construction of the building yeah about 3 million personal capital and 7 million loan and what are approximately the monthly uh costs that t ship LLC has to both the service that loan and operate the building about 70,000 a month and how much under the current rents that tesp LLC is collecting from the tenants uh how much R revenue does that generate I not exactly sure today's number but we're running at a $250,000 annual deficit understood um these efforts that Tes LLC went through in terms of the financing that acquired on the property was that done in Reliance of the fact that there would be a rent control exemption yep that's why we filled it quickly at lower than Market rates because we had no uh intention of being rent controlled now with respect to the leases at the property was there a property manager for the property uh at the time of original leasing yes it was a liberty realy and who drafted the initial leases to the tenants of the property um I believe in conjunction with our lawyer and Liberty realy were you aware of any requirement to notify the tenants of a rent control exemption being claimed at the Inception of leases no did you have any intent to deceive the tenants with respect to rent control status of the building no okay and to just move this along there was a point in time where you sought to increase the rent on the property correct uhuh and did you receive any complaints to the rent control board after that occurred yes six okay after that happened did you provide notice to the tenants that you were in fact claiming a rent control exemption under the state uh statute yes and how did you provide those notices to the tenants through certified mail and online portal have you provided notices regarding the rent control exemption to new tenants that signed leases at the property since the appeals were filed yes and what essentially are the contents of those notices uh that we are currently rent controlled and that the landlord has filed an appeal to this rent control and shall appeal be granted their rents may increase in excess of what the rent control statute States is there any tenant currently residing at the property that hasn't received notice of either the claimed rent control exemption or the pending appeal no approximately how many tenants are currently residing in the building that did not receive that initial exemption notification at the Inception of their lease I'm not sure at the current because we have some vacancies is there anyone uh currently residing there that's not a process of this appeal that was one of those original tenants uh yes I believe so at least two or three okay how many units are in the building 25 okay approximately is it less than 10 yeah less less than 10 so the majority of the building's been notified both of the pending appeal and of the claimed exemption oh no everyone in the building currently even the new leases have been I I've been told that that we're in the right now if I may Council um I think we're kind of prolonging this uh the the question is whether or not um you know the the owner G this gentleman here or an associate uh filed uh a request to to be rent control exempt uh before the 30 days of receiving that that CEO I believe he's answered that um I don't I mean obviously yeah you're you're supposed to provide in the lease that is a rent control you you have to notify the tenants that that's great but the question really here is is whether or not it's proven that it was done and his testimony is is that I gave it to Joe Manzone correct Joe Manzone dropped it off at the office of the construction code official correct okay well there's there's two issues because the rent leveling administrator also based the determination in part on the fact that these notices weren't provided to the tenant or the in tenants at the Inception of lease and that's what we're getting at right okay but he's stating right now that he did right what he's stating right now what he's stating right now we we concede okay we con seeed that the Inception of the initial leases because the landlord was working through a property manager and was unaware of the requirement that that notice be provided that there were tenants that were not provided within that lease the notice of the exemption from run control this goes to the issue of substantial compliance like I said which the New Jersey courts have said we don't need perfect compliance with the statute we need substantial compliance so what I'm trying to do is describe the situation that you have a rather inexperienced landlord it's the first development of a multif family building he's relying on the state exemption they've put substantial Capital into the building and through no intent to deceive the tenants it through an oversight really that initial notice wasn't provided they did everything they could to submit the exemption letter to the city and then as soon as they became aware of that requirement they provided it so now we have a situation where you probably have a handful of tenants less than 10 out of the total amount of that's being rented that are those initial tenants that weren't provided with that notice they've been provided that notice at this point and overall our point is that the landlord has really done everything that they could to substantially comply with the requirements of that statute both by submitting that rent control exemption letter however they could to the building department and as soon as they became aware of it to provide notice to the tenants that they were claiming this exemption and the notice even claims at this point in time that this is subject to an appeal and the landlord is going to honor the result of that appeal and that's that's what the statute uh asks is that prior 30 days prior to receiving the SE you have to request and um you you you'll request a rent control exemption from the office of the construction code official and then it'll be granted okay correct that's what the statute States correct okay I mean that's really all I need to hear as to whether there's testimon I mean I leave it to the the board but I mean really it's just did you or did you not drop it off also did you know do you have PRS do you have receipts from the office of uh of the construction code official you know again going into the after the fact after receiving the CEO and you know as much money as you put into I don't know that that's relevant um to to what what we're arguing here which is whether the building is rent control exempt or not and if you've go I'm sorry commission yeah I actually did and that's kind of what I was trying to get to because counselor in for the the managers I I totally get the position that you're coming from one of the things that I was going to I just had a couple of questions sure and reading some of the documentation I understand a couple of tenants the tenants in 102 and 302 they vacated their apartments and I'm under the impression I didn't see that the reason behind it but it may have been because of the rent increases perhaps they couldn't afford it you have any idea why they may have vacated um I have a management company that's dealing with the tenants I'm not sure the reason exactly but I can find out okay it's not it's not critical but when I saw that you know there were some tenants that had left I was just trying to you know connect some dots well as soon as we found the decision was made we the rents are back to the to what they were and with a 4% increase what's okay it's it's it's just a concern but when you were talking back because one of the other things I'm not a lawyer obviously but when I look at a matter of substantial compliance versus strict compliance you know when I look at a tenant I don't expect a tenant to understand rent control I do expect a landlord or a property manager to understand the guidelines that the city is you know asking them to to abide by as far as any of these regulations are concerned and I do expect them to be handled you know because it's in black and white and that's one of the responsibilities I think attached to landlords um as well as property managers um so that's the tough part for me the other is the strict compliance I mean the substantial compliance thing I don't I did not see that in any the documentation that was submitted to me so I I guess I can go back and look for that but when you were quoting that particular or you know explaining that particular statute I just didn't see it in any of the documentation that was submitted unless it's something that I just I'm not sure what's missing part of what was submitted was the notice of the exempt so there's two issues right there's the notice of exemption that's to the building department we have an issue of delivery there the building department contends they didn't receive it we have no method of receipt because the landlord submitted it online didn't receive a receipt I can have Mr maone testify as to his delivery of that envelope he didn't receive a receipt for that envelope so frankly we Mr Mone would have to testify to that me it's it's not the it wasn't it was we going back and forth if if it wasn't submitted to the to the department we don't have it we can't say that it was or it wasn't he can testify that he gave it but it's not showing up to us saying that it was given um I would like to hear from the tenants to hear their side because we're going to be all night talking about if we did or we didn't I just want to hear what they have to say and then we move forward with our decision on whether or whatever we should do about this okay all right I would say um I understand and respect that our position essentially is this is a question of hardship and Prejudice right we recognize the fact that there were tenants that didn't receive notice of that and I believe I put in my papers that the landlord's prepared to honor that they're not going to escalate for those tenants that are residing in the property um that they would get increases Beyond what's in the rent control ordinance but this is really an exemption that's extremely valuable to the landlord and necessary in order to recoup their cost so it it's an undue hardship on the landlord essentially to require that the entire building be subject to run control on the basis that some tenants weren't notified and we would be prepared to honor that with respect to those tenants and understand that they may have entered into the lease under the understanding that that ordinance might apply to them but for every other tenant that's been provided that notification we would ask that the um board consider the building to be but councelor you do understand because of the ordinance you still the 30 days we have to follow that also no I understand that I understand that our position is it was submitted okay I understand that that's a proof issue for the board to right so is it possible that 15 I I hear the numbers 15 and 10 can 15 be exempt from rent control and then the other 10 remain I'm sorry just commissioner just make sure that your your microphones are on the green light is on so that we have hello for the record yeah okay okay so yeah what I'm I'm not sure I mean I'm sorry it sounds like there's a hybrid situation developing where you have 15 exempt from rent control and 10 will remain under rent control I guess until those tenants vacate the building is either exempt or not exempt I'm proposing an equitable solution to the board to find that the building is exempt from rent control but that the landlord that be on the condition that the landlord honor the annual lent rent increases that are uh set by the ordinance with respect to those tenants that did not receive notice at the Inception of the tency oh is I guess you know our question would be is is is this hybrid situation allowable is it either it's rent controlled not or not yeah I think that's un so it has it has to be all or none is that it okay do I need I need swearing don't I okay hello I do for the record my name is shyron Richardson I the rent level administrator so yeah the answer is no it's it's you cannot have a hybrid situation right okay and that's through the chair that was my main concern was I don't think we have the power to authorize what you're offering it just that goes against the city ordinance so we we don't have control to do that exactly if you'd like to hear from the ten tenis thank you it's a bit of pill Commissioners Commissioners I just want to make a clarification it's not necessary we're not talking about the the ordinance we're talking about estate statute okay Bradley par b r a d l e y parrot p a r r o t t yes I do hello ladies and gentlemen of the board uh first off sorry for my nerves I'm not used to speaking in front of a microphone here as I just said my name is Brad parrot um first off I'd like to thank you for your thorough review and Dil thorough and diligent review of the case uh and for putting up with probably many of my personal attempts to be in touch to learn the status of our petition um you know I'm I'm a pretty normal guy commuted here from the city today like hundreds of thousands do every day um I earn a modest living I don't spend beyond my means I live where I can and and live life well but you know this entire process has admittedly been a a significant drain on myself and and the other tenants of the building um in the first year of living in this building there were many inces that would result in in anyone wanting to to move out frankly um poor security break-ins thievery you know issues in the units relating to um you know the uh some of the air conditioning some of the appliances um and you know a lot of this was was not addressed quickly and and a lot of it was met with uh you know frustration on our end um there was lack of prepar and empathy um and and that's from the landlord that's kind of a common theme in this case you after the first year it was really disappointing and and frustrating frankly to get a a 25% increase on my rent um every attempt to negotiate with the landlord was swiftly rejected um you know I was disappointed because I considered myself to be a a good tenant you know I always pay on time I assisted with issues around the building um picked up trash in the hallways uh cleaned up animal excretions that were in the elevator uh you know dealt with police during those issues that I mentioned earlier where we would have thieves come in and break-ins and things like that um and so you know I along with many others we were trapped with the decision of you know do we go through the process of of finding a new home um paying a finder's fee moving everything and kind of you know starting that process over again or do we just deal with the increase 25% increase on anything is substantial year-over-year um and you know many people did opt to move out others stuck around and then eventually you know a group of us decided that we should submit a petition um because we felt that these were predatory practices and also we were never notified that the that the building was exempt from rent control um you know I clearly don't have a law background I'm a I'm a sales guy um but you know I was I reviewed all of the the exhibits within the um you know that were submitted to us um and I think it's fairly clear um you know in your determination in exhibit four pages 1- n um what the requirements are to be exempt from rent control um and in each instance it seemed that the landlord uh attempted to share proof that he satisi satisfied these requirements that the board refute it um and you know the practic of the landlord are alarming considering like he mentioned earlier this was his first residential property in the first opportunity that he had to incre increase tenants rates he did it by 25% and immediately rejected any any attempts to negotiate um you know it was alarming that he has such little regard for the inhabitants of his building um and was seemingly eager to try to force people out and or force people into a decision of moving out or accepting this significant increase for their living situation um so that's all I really wanted to say we were all put in a really T difficult decision uh position and that's why we did ultimately file this petition because we felt that this was not right and we did find that he was not satisfying all the requirements as clearly stated um by the rent leveling board so thank you for the time and uh appreciate all of your efforts again uh does the Commissioners do you have any question anybody have any questions for attendant or I just uh questions yeah okay uh I just want to say one thing too uh I those tenants that are here you're here for an illegal rent increase um I understand that there uh may be uh terrible conditions or maybe a failure to maintain services but tonight we're here to discuss the illegal rent increase uh also whether this property is rent control exempt or not um so again we just ask if you just stick to those points on the record um yeah that that's pretty much it if you want to call the next tenant any tenant Daniel Divine it is I do I'm sorry Mr Divine yes yeah just if you could step up a little bit closer and it's it's d v i n e that's right okay thank you um again just want to say thank you for the time and reviewing our case and everything um just the one thing I wanted to add is in light of the 25% increase we were given a 10-day notice to make the decision um which I know it is a law to have at least 30 days um in Jersey so I think that's really what um stuck me the most uh on top of you know a 25 and you know an unreasonable increase and then 10 days to make that decision to the landlord um which I think really put us in a tough decision where we had to um again file this petition is there excuse me is there a difference between your dep your apartment in his apartment no we're all um I'm in sorry I'm in unit 406 um we all just joined together in one bedroom two bedrooms they all um I'm a one bedroom I think U Brad is in a studio and yeah we can't we can't uh take testimony from they when they come up they can answer any questions but right now we want to f focus on Mr Divine uh yes okay so you're just heing Mr Divine yeah no he you said you was in a it was a 10day notice to make the decision to the right but one bedroom you said one bedroom yes sir all right and Mr yes 25 Mr parrot you you're in a again no no no I was in a studio or still am in a studio studio and you're paying 2 5% increase also um after the decisions were made I came back to the uh landlord and the um property manager and negotiated adjusted rates um which resulted in me getting a credit um because they agreed to the rates that would have been um accurate for the CPI percentage increase year-over-year that was um act I can't give you exact dates but that was more than a year after paying the 25% increase okay hold on so you did pay the increase for a full year on the 25% and did you also receive notice with only 10 days notice I can't remember the exact amount of days that I received notice but it was a short amount of time okay um and I think I don't have the um actual lease in front of me at the exact moment but um I'm not going to go any further it's it's in the exhibit but the wording on um the amount of time that the landlord needs to give a notice of an increase and the amount of time that the land that the tenant has to respond was seemingly different from what a typical lease would State and for the record I just want to ask what is the um legal time time on that so state law requires landlords to notice their tenants 30 days in advance in in uh in the ordinance you uh whatever month that falls on you have to use the U CPI increase that is provided by the Labor uh sorry the Bureau of Labor Statistics um and if that exceeds 4% you cannot you cannot increase the rent uh more than 4% right so whatever the monthly CPI increase is that has to be applied it will never be 25% U 25% is used by those landlords who believe that they are rank control exempt or are rank controled exempt in this case can't do that right anybody got as a matter of fact and even taking a look at the CPI for I think last year it was pretty dog on low it was something like 0.004 so it's you know it's not like it's a significant number there any more questions commission no more questions okay motion to close uh well we I mean I wasna yeah we have tenant and we have rebuttal and we also have a hearing officer here for questioning if you sorry I was just going to State um there was an agreed upon uh 4% increase for my initial renewal that was adjusted um from the 25% increase that I was paying for a full year and then we agreed to a 2.9% increase um in in that would have been May of this year so if it was 0.5% then I don't that's not it's not what my increase ultimately ended up being what we what we agreed upon between the landlord and myself okay okay counselor the um only thing that I would add would be with respect to the notice period that the tenants are describing uh the landlord sent out renewal notices my understanding is to all of the units at the same time um in substantially the same form it's attached as exhibit 1 C page 1 um and notice was given on March 29th 2023 uh for an increase to go into effect on May the 1st or I'm sorry uh yeah May the 1st of that same year so I believe the 30-day notice was provided by our client and that's in the record uh as far as when they actually sent the notice no that that was the only discrepancy that I believe that I had with the documents that were on record from what was said here all right can we hear from the he officer no it that's it us is done okay good evening everyone good evening okay um so again I just want to state that uh the bureau is absolutely understanding and sympathetic in terms of the money that went into this property um but because there's a few things it is a new it's a new construction uh which means that if anybody's going to put that much money in you you should definitely do your due diligence to make sure that you put in all the paperwork to make sure that it's R control uh the the attorney has already uh proven that both the letter was not submitted 30 days prior and then uh the Furnishing to the tenants of notice was not submitted and So based on those two alone uh the ordinance says that this property is not it is subject to rent control so I just want to say that you know we are sympathetic but the fact that this is a new property this is not like the port side situation where you had 30 years prior uh and with those things happening you would be even more due diligent to make sure that you get the paperwork in in a proper time so uh if we're going to stick to the ordinance and just stay uniformed um based on what we've done in the past I believe the the evidence proves that they have not done their due diligence and unfortunately we realize that it's a lot of money but if it's it is that much money you better believe that that I'm not going to stop it just not submitting two letters something as simple as two letters can cost you millions of dollars I'm not going to lose those millions of dollars for not submitting just two simple letters and so and as you see even in the evidence uh the bureau did its due diligence we didn't just make a decision off hand we reached out we went back and forth so we really did try to do all we can to make sure that we could show that we did not find any evidence that they did what they were supposed to do so I just want to put that on record okay thank you thank any question tell them to let the attorney motion to close okay I have a motion to close by the chair board chair do I have a second does the attorney have anything to say wait wait oh hold on the attorney does the their attorney have any rebuttal he did already oh okay okay second made by chair I'm sorry second made by commissioner Brown all in favor to close the meeting to the public I okay unanimous okay all right I don't think we have any choice have to make motion uphold again please just remember to speak into the microphones motion to adopt the Heron officers decision I make a motion oh go okay go you go Ahad go ahead here I make a motion at the board um favor what the ring control department has done in terms that the landlord has failed to provide the sufficient proof of compliance with state law NJ sa 24 col 42-44 and therefore the bureau finds that the property is subject to rent control so there is a motion to motion to adopt to to accept to accept the H office's decision right the the hearing officer's determination yes yes okay do I have a second second okay second was from sorry the Pion Elda okay commissioner pinion not okay all in favor of I I okay that's I'm sorry missed it's it's closed it's closed closed to the public sorry so motion passes to accept the hearing officer's uh determination wh wait yeah I feel bad for him but okay is there any other other cases that is it there isn't anything else on the agenda tonight do I have a motion to motion to close Okay so motion to close all in favor all in favor I I okay thank Youk you thank you everyone for coming tonight thank ni that was a tough one but yeah our hands were tied that was our hands are tied what are you going to do is a state law well I think it also opens the door when you start giving attach to one oh yeah do that inure all we can do is follow the law yes that's right that's what the cour system yeah and he needed problem for him to overcome this final determination he needed the proof