##VIDEO ID:5-58wBp7FzE## that's us oh all right uh welcome to the December 9th work session if you join me in a moment of silence with pleasure please pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America for IT stand One Nation Under indivisible liy and justice for all all right uh we will go into citizens comments it's opportunity for anybody to address the council typically for issues that are not on the okay none we'll move on to our first item which is the County Road 550 Interstate 35 interchange and we'll turn it over to Zach Johnson all right good evening mayor council members uh thank you tonight uh kind of an exciting project that we've been working on for a long time on at least acknowledge to that there's representatives from Dakota County Board of Commissioners and the uh Lille Area Chamber here as well uh among others uh Dakota County staff as well um our goal tonight is to bring you up to speed uh with where we're at the project we've had some previous work sessions uh we've had an uh open house and uh we're approaching some Milestone dates and so we wanted to present with you where we're at today uh things are going to start moving a little bit uh quicker here through a couple of processes here so um goal tonight is to just give you a brief background uh bring you up to date on the results of mobility and safety walk you through the interchange design Alternatives that we've considered specifically the two that kind of worked its way down fin talk about the pros and cons of each look at which one is kind of um trending towards the top um highlight some schedule objectives for you um walk you through uh upcoming public and business engagements and then identify the next steps and the discussions so brief background uh in 2004 2005 the city and the county and the state partnered to complete uh what we titled interim improvements at that time uh we expanded County Road 50 with a a significant exception for the Northbound Lanes underneath the bridge due to the existing abutments we only have that one northbound lane so among other things we have capacity issues sight lined issues and then increasing traffic volumes at that time we also created an official map and with that we identified potential future public infrastructure in areas that were developed or undeveloped to help us to help guide us through that interim phase and and with that we use that map to make the Improvement ments at 172nd Street uh among among some things then also to help us in acquiring some property uh that you'll see right here I have to remember slow uh to uh acquire some property as well that fell within that official mapping area oops wrong away so we identified through a study mobility and safety problems uh and so you'll see here what's represented is uh the circular dots at the intersections uh represent kind of a level of service uh green being adequate yellow being approaching some capacity or operational issues and red signifying that we have significant delays or operational failures there that require um some improvements uh you'll also see represented in the Red Arrows some of the queuing that we're seeing so for example you'll see on the south offramp on uh uh cutting Road five there you'll see that it almost approaches traffic backing up into the freeway um and then likewise you'll see uh here that uh in the morning traffic is backing up and creating issues at these intersections as they try to work through the traffic signal programming to get onto the freeway so this is really sensitive Taylor um so you'll see those delays um you'll see here 175th Street as well County Road 50 and Kendrick Avenue so we we've identified that there's existing problems here and then also in 2050 as we forecast traffic as well likewise you'll see afternoon Peak traffic by 2050 here you'll see an example where the uh folks here are extending and queuing back onto the freeway uh that's bringing on mind do you'll also see some potential failures here uh at Kenyon Avenue uh and so basically you'll see a little bit more red if you remember the for just for some perspective you'll see a lot of green and some yellow red down in the bottom and then here you'll see afternoon uh likewise with the transitional traffic there from morning and afternoon rush hours so overall the uh we're seeing potential operations at intersections we're seeing backups and and the ability for free flowing traffic to move it along this Corridor is the reason that we're here today to talk about a plan for addressing these we started with 11 different Alternatives that have been accepted and used throughout the state in the nation uh they wide ranging from roundabouts to signals to a different geometric designs we looked at it through a number of criteria one is is the operations and the mobility of traffic you'll see here one being uh not as not as good and then the three stars being as good looking at saf safety both from a vehicular standpoint as well as Mel and motal with pedestrians and the bicyclists we also looked at property impacts so you'll see that some designs required uh more parcel impacts and more relocations and then obviously looked at we looked at cost so we whittel that down from 11 down to two and that's what we'd like to share with you here today so this first example is the modernized diamond this is very similar to what we had established in 2004 as a potential interchange design uh it's it's very traditional uh you'll see here that we're basically using the existing Bridge footprint uh you'll see the addition of a new uh local roadway that aligns with the offering here you'll see the realignment of the onramp uh you'll see some changes here of signal on Kenyon Avenue uh you'll see pedestrian movements here uh a couple of notable changes on this one here I want to doy is the new Street and then also 175th Street would be proposed to be restricted to a permanent culdesac so as today there would be there's a current access to 50 with this design there would no longer be one traffic would have to continue further south to 175th Street or Kendrick Avenue you'll see here uh that uh there is one proposed building impact under this design here you'll see that there's another potential impact here with the Fleet Farm gas station and you'll see here there's some pretty significant impacts to this existing building uh both from an access standpoint uh as well as parking and then potential changes here and this is yes is the intention that all the traffic on 175th is Jam tiny little roundout correct to that road correct traffic would come uh I don't have I don't have an overall I'm sorry but yes traffic would continue South to the signal at 175th Street travel east make a left at the signal and then travel through the roundabout to the north that's correct the second option that we looked at is what's called a DI viring Diamond um not as traditional as the modernized one that we'll see but definitely one that's still used in Minnesota there's another number of examples that I can cite for you a couple of things that brought this particular layout forward in the project is one uh we don't have the property impact here as you recall this road alignment here came through and now here uh we don't have the access but we're able to preserve that building and work with some of the remnant right away to preserve parking uh we still do have an impact here at that gas station and the other thing that we would look at here is instead of closing this off we would have a three4 access so folks would be able to travel through there so southbound you could come in here and take a left and then likewise you'd be able to access the businesses in this C the sack here the traffic signal here uh might appear a little out of place since it's a three quar intersection but it's all tied to the timing of The Interchange on the on ramps and off ramps there is that yep so I mean when I'm looking at this I just want to clarify what the red signifies because in the previous two when we looking at 2050 levels red equals bad I mean is that just a design thing or is that something about traffic flow that good good question the red just to clarify the red here represents Vehicles backing up so this actually would identify like vehicles or queing so for example here you know this would represent cars backed all the way up to this point the red in this is representing uh concrete mediums and bike paths so this isn't pres this isn't representing any kind of vehicular backups I should say that's a good point though both of these would be designed from an operational standpoint to reduce or eliminate that queing and the delaying that we saw in those previous forecasts talk a little bit about how people would access the two strip malls in both so you got princess Jewelers and then you've got the one where saoa is there correct under this under this Divergent Diamond here you'd be able to take a left and then we would work to make sure that we can use this access here right now it's it's um it's a little bit to the west of that but we would be able to put this out of spacing so folks using this strip center here would be able to access 175th Street here or if they wanted to come up here they would have no longer have that direct connection to 50 that they do today they would have to come around here 175th up Kenrick and then use this permanent call the saac to access the site so the building would stay um but there would be it wouldn't have the accessibility that we do Under the current situation but that's in part because of the onramp here and getting traffic onto the freeway it's already an issue right now for people trying to get into SEO even if you move the um entrance into that strip a few feet it's still a problem um for people to make that left turn and there agre or even to make a right out of there to go anywhere but um so I guess I'm I'm not understanding how that that's some prooving it for them yep so two things one I want to highlight and and maybe I'm I'm going to take a step back here um what we need to do is have an overall interchange layout established by a milestone date of February 1st or have one submitted it is not intended to be a final design uh we're still working through the preliminary stages so not all of these issues are going to be resolved today or with this layout you can see here that even just with some of this parking on the west side of the road too we're just really at this point it's very high level uh we do acknowledge and understand and have heard from these Property Owners the current challenges today in accessing that what we're looking at are some Alternatives that if if the you know what are the impacts to access if we have a permanent call theck here versus if we have a full access intersection so we are still going through those iterations as to how that work you'll see that we're actually proposing to shift this route further south to provide a little bit more queuing and a little bit more distance we'd also look at locating this area here we'd have to work with these folks as far as you know what happens with parking do we access around the rear of the building so I would say there's a lot of work to be done on this um but what we can see is that in this scenario if we include include a new local roadway we can't have this connection here we are able to keep a full access here or 3/4 access here if we go with this design but then these folks here come off a call this a so there's a little bit of of give and take um there's a little bit of fitting so we're still working through these issues um but in this scenario we still have more conversations to have with these folks but a bigger issue that we wanted to figure out right now is you know is 175th Street a full access a 3/4 access or zero access at all that's the kind of the first piece of the puzzle that we're trying to solve and and the other thing I wanted to ask is um where the Pizza Hut is why wouldn't you take the access from the culdesac instead instead of taking it off the front Ed Road um especially at that curve yep and again I would say at this point this is just very high level This Is Us just kind of um putting work on paper this is we St to have conversations with Pizza Hut it's very possible that after working through this design meeting with the business owners better understanding their needs maybe there's an alternative that would be achieved here we just again we wanted to demonstrate here that there's going to be the onramp and that we'd have a culd toac here so it's just literally to show that that building would stay and there would be access to it so I just I just longer on ramp or not than current yeah good point yep so it is so uh if you if you remember in 2022 and 2023 the state legislature appropriated funds to mot to do a study of the entire Corridor out of that Corridor came three critical crash locations here one was the onramp going northbound and then one was I35 between the ramps both Northbound and South Bond so you're correct and this design then would provide that additional queuing that additional acceleration Lane to eliminate some of those rear end crashes or the emerging crashes that we're seeing so great Point thank you what type of conversation have we had about which of these provides more significance for fire station three and its ability to be renovated we haven't we haven't included that in those conversations yet um what we do know is that uh from a fire station operations the roundabout is working okay as we go through this um we'll have to have larger conversations uh that hasn't been a significant talking point here but obviously you know from this standpoint you'd have a full access intersection at 174th to access Fire Station 3 versus here then they would access it off at one5 street so we're comfortable that they'd be access um working through some of those details we still have to have those conversations with with Chief Meyer and and his staff as we progress through the design process so is 175th possible for full access or three quarters three quarters is what we've been proposing yep and so to do that we've had to pull this sell so you can see it kind of gets lost there my apologies but we pull this down a little bit further south you can see kind of the underlying Road here but again these businesses would stay uh under this design and we'd have to do some property impacts as far as parking but it would be 3/4 it's hidden by the signature side you can see it a little bit better here but these folks would make a left into there and then you could only make right turn Lanes back right turns on to 50 so you couldn't turn left on to 50 from 17 correct so what we've oh sorry so what we found in our analysis is from a traffic operations a traffic Mobility safety and cost property impacts this design here continues to score a little bit higher than the modernized diamond for all of those CR and I'd say it's pretty consistent over each of those elements it continues to to score higher um the challenge that this design proposes is is two things one is it's it's a little different um we don't have one in Lakeville but it uh it's still the operation basically just so you know is is it's still operated by traffic signals I have a a three minute YouTube video uh I can show you it's it's very old um but basically it just demonstrates what's unique about this is you'd come along your cell phone you'd be you'd stop at a traffic signal but instead of staying in this Lane for a short amount of time you cross over to the other side of the roadway and what that does basically it eliminates those leftand turns where we see those right angle crashes again a safety and a Mobility uh issue and then once you cross once you pass that onramp then you just go back to the other side so maybe a little bit different uh but certainly the concept of using a traffic signal following Lanes is is is pretty accepted by the community the other challenge that we're trying to work through is we really want to focus on multimodal uh access here and there's a couple of ways to look at this um one is to keep pedestrians along the outside of the traffic the other is to uh move folks inside so that they're traveling along that that Center Island so think of it as kind of your a long pedestrian Refuge we're still looking at alternatives on this we're working with mindat on this as well and as we work through this process we're comfortable that we come up with the design that best meets the needs of our pedestrian and bicyclist Community provides us both the safety and that sense of comfort that uh would provide for that accessibility but that's that's one of the design things that we're still trying to work through um on this but at this point after starting with our 11 narrowing it down to five then two the diverging diamond is the design that continually Rises to the top and both require some sort of environmental something or other for the gas station correct yep uh we have a lot of environmental documentation to do correct yep for the the gas station relocation then just addition to the additional lanes and the bridges so um and we can go back to this too but just I wanted to walk through a couple other things so we are scheduled to have a uh an open house we've had one so far and we'd have another and that basically was introducing the project um for folks that haven't heard about it for a while I mean we had public engagement efforts in the past but letting folks know that this is back in the CIP um so we got really good attendance I thought um but we'll bring that back on December 19th and uh share that with folks and show them that here's kind of the design that we're moving towards we'll have both PL we'll have both Alternatives available for folks to see we'll answer questions we'll get feedback from a city and county standpoint we have a milestone date of February 1st uh in accordance with new legislation we need to get that into mot as far as the layout design is um the reason for that is if we miss that deadline there's a potential for additional costs uh indicators that would have to be included in the project uh if we are able to meet that February 1st 202 we'd go within um we'd be grandfathered into the current legislation probably get an approved layout by summer of 2025 work through some of those details and hopefully work through uh starting final design late 2025 uh early 2026 long term we do have some funding applications that we're actively processing Dakota county is going to apply for some more Federal funding right now we're looking at a design timeline of 20 28 or 2029 uh the significance of that is if it's 2028 that's currently what the city and county are working towards as far as a program level assuming that we receive funding one thing that I will note with you is 2029 mindat has a couple of projects programmed in their in their 10-year chip one is surface uh payment maintenance uh completion from basically Cony Road 70 up to the split where they would take a look at the existing surfaces anything that's deterior iting or needs Improvement they would resurface that they also have programmed the replacement of bridges uh the one at 50 which is good we're doing an interchange they're going to replace that Bridges they also have programmed to replace the bridges at 205th Street providing some continuity there and economy scale and also to repair the bridges over Lake Maran so one of the elements that we're also concurrently working on is how do we partner with mindat to minimize impacts of the traveling public minimize impacts to businesses um while also making sure that uh we replace infrastructure you know in accordance with their useful life and so uh stay tuned for that as the city and county work through their uh the development of their CIP here uh beginning in a couple months that'll be one of the continuous items that we'll talk about does either one of these uh impact the ability for mind to add another Lane good question um as part of that study uh the answer is no they they can still do that um part of that study that we partnered with and we sat there was it was a Mot blood study but city and county were represented um they identified a couple Alternatives they looked at uh installing Easy Pass Lanes from the split to County Road 50 they looked at adding auxiliary Lanes from basically the splitter 46 to 50 and also potential for adding general purpose Lanes at the split and then bringing those actually all the way down to County Road 60 so one of the items that um if we go back in time in 2007 when we looked at programming the County Road 70 I35 interchange one of the elements that we got from uh the fhwa is that we had to study the corridor along County Road 50 to see if we had to make improvements to the state system at that time we worked with fhwa during that study in 202 23 and we did get concurs that we can move on our design if we so choose and The Interchange that minda will take care of those items uh along the card see here what's next oh we talked a little bit about the public and business engagement uh we did have 120 folks again I thought we had really good attendance at that uh some great questions some great interest uh we had both residents and business owners attend uh we still have a long way to go at that many many conversations to be had public open houses individual meetings with uh neighborhoods business owners so we're still working through that process but we wanted to get back out in front of them on the 19th uh to share with them what we've done um in the last three months uh the Chamber of Commerce has been a great partner in that too Christa has been exceptional and helping us kind of collaborate with those folks make sure that we're talking to the right people and making sure that they're part of this process as well it's impactful we recognize that uh in some cases relocation and so we'll continue to have that as well uh so we have the open house preparing for the men. submitt uh I guess I didn't highlight this um but basically what uh 30 32 to $36 million per construction I believe um but overall project costs are somewhere between 4 and 50 um you will see on your January uh city council agenda a resolution supporting Dakota County's application for federal funding uh we'll have that before you and then also continued coordination with mindat uh in their scheduled projects uh with that it's a lot of information but um wanted to see if you had whoops I'm sorry uh see if you had any questions uh any feedback that you'd like us to share otherwise like I said we do have Representatives um and I saw Zach here too we have representatives of the business Community as well um but uh just wanted to bring you up to speed on that and share with you it's been a lot of good work done uh uh up to this point okay thank you Zach anybody from the the way in any yeah you want your name and yeah my name is Zach zelon I'm the owner of the Red seavoy building um I also uh work for Border foods and run development for Taco Bell in the state of Minnesota and greater Midwest we just opened up the Taco Bell in August here at the movie theater and we also controlled a one on Kenwood Trail just down the road but mainly here for the building that we own that's getting affected I've been talking with Zach and Doug for a long time you know obviously just wanted to share concerns for a long time our tenants have been pretty stressed about it even even recently Park Dental is you know thinking about their long term with me being and not knowing access and and ability to be profitable and stay there um we've had pretty much every single tenant reach out one is a one we just just recently but other ones have had it on the radar longer I think when things are going to be posted they're kind of starting to see it um just want to say we're happy that we were able to work with you guys and have an option to keep that lane open access is super important to us as an owner for long run and just keeping those businesses you know I mean without being able to access it it completely changed the face of that building so I know we don't have a ton of options here and say out of the overall project but I think just want to stress The Importance of Being able to keep that ability to keep 175th open um for the success of those businesses and our property that we made our investment in Lakeville thank you um others any you guys have questions or comments yeah Josh so assuming we went with this merging design here this diverging diamond what elements of this plan are still flexible for future conversations it's a great question um the snapshot really is is we would submit the whole design to minda that's part of that whole geometric layout um but uh like council member B had identified you know you can see here that there there's still elements of how would you know how would we do something with impacts here Mr zelix and how do we handle this you know how do we program timing and things like that so um from an overall standpoint there's still f ability in it however some of the key elements would be that we are using that existing Bridge footprint you know for example we're not putting the bridge you know somewhere North we're using that same footprint as today um the location of the island so in large part you know this is really what mind do is looking at the items outside mind Do's access so for example this intersection you know North basically you know if you look at it I'd say on r offramp to onramp off-ramp so this would provide some flexibility here as we work through some of those designs as well but we really would be locking in this design and shape because then what that would help us do is work on you know start preparing for RightWay acquisition environmental documentation the next step is we have to walk through all that environmental documentation that Mary H you're addressed to um but we would definitely be moving in a Direction so when we submit on February 1 we'd be moving with this design versus um versus this so we wouldn't be switching designs but we would have some flexibility and we'd start to work on once we have we don't have any survey work so once we have that then we would look at fine-tuning these things but as general from a a 2d level this would be our SM um The Pedestrian thing may change as we work through those details but by and large this is what you would see excuse me I see four stop lights in that you right there could you sh possibility to put excuse me just for our records can you just share your name sure my name is Mike H I live on judicial Road just north of Orchard Lake okay uh there's going to be two stop lights added in that project it looks like is there any way to eliminate those stop lights and put roundabouts in there right now those those two stop lights at the intersection of of the interstate is a big tie up yeah Mr G we we did look at that uh and that is something that we can continue to look at uh with all intersection designs we look at roundabouts and traffic signals I think at this time we're kind of focused on the traffic signals from terms of are they meeting warrants uh what are the operations there now but we have had conversations and we've actually looked in the past about a roundabout at uh penan Avenue up on the up on the North side this one I would say uh is probably closer to that three quarters because what we have here is we have the proximity and the location in the onramp so this one I would not consider a candidate for roundabout uh this one here we could take a look at that as well but we'll take that into consideration as we move further than the design process and we would have the results and share that information with the public and business owners thank you yeah so can you talk a little bit about uh if there's been any discussion on acquisition cost or local Road costs that may not be in that overall project number uh we haven't done any fine detailed designs so we have large CIP level planning amounts for construction right away excuse me and design uh so we haven't gone into for example we haven't taken a hard look at the cost impacts of you know building a parking lot here relocating those parking lots here so excuse me as we move forward in the design we would take a closer look at that what we wanted to demonstrate by this design is can we actually achieve parking can we provide access to this so as we move forward then we would have a a better idea of um local Road impact costs but um you can see here that there would be some extension this actually goes up to about 170th Street it gets cut off on the screen sorry and then we would have some local costs here as well U with the realignment of the culdesac so um short of The Interchange and the bridge replacement and the County Road Corridor along five and along five oops sorry along five and 50 uh we do anticipate that there will be some local Road impacts that would be elements of this project um we do have an established U uh cost share based upon the County transportation plan we have not developed a jpa so if there's some fine-tuning things like those are discussions that can be had in the future but there's probably a pretty significant cost difference in the culdesac versus building a new 174 uh yes I mean in general yeah I mean there that that's a fair statement I mean there may be uh a cost for clearing and grubbing but yeah I mean a c theack versus Road probably comparable and and the economy is a scale um but but yeah that's a first statement other questions John actually a comment and a question it's it's interesting because I I live close to this and we use the 175th and 50 Area a lot and it's interesting with the diverging diamond there's some changes but really I'm looking and I'm thinking of the way we use those intersections to get to Z Bo or or know something else I don't see a lot of difference with this design uh versus if um there's a called the sack at 175th and then 174th when went through um so I mean for like I say just from my perspective as a regular user of this area I think for not getting on 50 or not getting on the freeway that's that's pretty good um the diverging diamond I there's one of these over by chasa that I've been on and I I guess one question is is kind education do we give people I'll tell you what the first time you go on that thing it's like oh my goodness until you you know once you do it once you're going oh okay this actually works better than than what would happen but it it will be confusing for people so I'm just curious what kind of education people are going to get uh uh two things I go to your first point I that back there but um we um without showing you the visual we one of the things that we did learn from this is you are correct 175th street is has more traffic than than we had intuitively thought and that's kind of where as you know the original plan in 2004 what we had moved forward with as having that called the sack we did find that that is a pretty popular route for folks and that's where we kind of explored what can we do to keep that access open so I appreciate the feedback that's right in line with everything that we saw um to your point you talked about the one in chasa these are also some other um recent improvements and there's more um but this is just what was reflected on the web page um a common one at least that I drive is the one by the airport on uh 494 34th but um um uh director uh good roads talked about the one in Dayton too as well and so they're out there this isn't uh we're not recreating anything but we have found that they're they're very efficient in in the examples that we have one of the uh you talked about education U there's a Youtube video um and if I may I'll just I'll I won't show you the whole thing but this is an example of something that was done um uh from can't I think it was does it say Missouri but it just a real brief and this is really old 70 and dors it diverging diamond interchange this is Dorset Road and here is the diverging D signals will send motorists once the light traffic signals will welcome you as your vehicle approaches The Interchange in this case the light is green and as we continue forward we begin to merge into the other side of the road signs above will assist your travels stay in the center and right lane to continue on Dorset merge into the left lane for the onramp to I 270 in this example we bypass I 270 and continue East on Dorset Road so again the light is green at the next Crossing that gives you a little bit of perspective and and I apologize for the oldness of that video but it does the point in showing you know a driver's view um but to your point uh council member we would uh I have have a number of different options uh videos uh renderings um really use that I mean as we've learned anything is with our projects there really needs to be a component of Education U we've certainly learned there's things that we we could do better and and this is a great opportunity for us uh when we introduce maybe somewhat newer Concepts or or different I'll say designs we want to make sure that we get out in front of the public to demonstrate how to do that so that's still something that uh is part of our scope um and part of what we do will come back from our feedback from residents and business owners is how we can best address that we're preatures of haveit so I the best way that we can just accommodate that because people are going to look at am I able to do what I normally do um is there backups this will reduce the backups for sure it sounds like it will reduce the uh the crash liabilities too because you don't have the 45 correct and and to your point that's why we're also spending quite a bit of time to make sure that we create that Comfort pedestrian activity as well and so um you know is it intuitive you know do folks like to go down the middle where they have traffic going on both sides is there a comfort in being outside the moving traffic so um those are some of the elements that we're trying to work through too as well because we want to make sure that we get that right as well oh do they get signning then for I I assume there's still multiple Lanes coming off the ramps but um let's just say the coming southbound now to get to 50 and five yep so and I'm not really sure what all that red means but there's a that's where you're saying there's barriers then so then there's a barrier that can only turn right if they get in that lane and then there's only one left lane so great question con M the red represents a concrete Island so just think of it as a you know a you know a surface concrete kind of pork chop um in here you'd have a South the southbound folks there'd be one lane for them to go south then make a rightand turn to go north on County Road 5 and here there would be two lanes for them to go south and then continue going to make a left and continue going soft and they could no longer cross if they got off by accident and wanted to get back on the freeway like they do now sometimes they go straight you know like right and go so this method if they get off they're going to have to go on a circular route to figure out how to get back on them correct correct have we had any feedback on F uh we have not um we've been working on trying to um communicate with them and find things so that that's definitely at the top of our list to do um we did have earlier contact in the in the early 2004 567 um but uh certainly nothing recently so that is a high priority for us to talk about those Works what happened to the idea there was a plan in 204 for the road to go kind of around DQ so that it would reduce youn issues for folks coming out so see if I can get that a little off the map here no you're okay so uh what so what council me Lee was referring Council M Lee was referring to is you can just see in the bottom of the screen here I I probably should have pulled up an aerial um but the the 2004 plan demonstrated an opportunity to um gain access um from a local road to um the Dairy Queen what we found is that based upon the existing topography the existing building locations storm water needs that it's really not um economically feasible to make that and therefore that's why really that's another key element of this is to make sure that this three quter design maintains their accessibility as well so that again in 2004 it was just kind of lines on paper say yeah this is something we wanted to emphasize that we wanted to look at alternative location for Access off the county system as we took kind of a deeper dive with this this exercise here we're finding then that really isn't uh a feasible solution and therefore they we would continue to work with them on having access off Ro 50 it's a great question great great memory on that so are you looking for direction from us or what are we talking um sure um at this point uh staff is seing the um the consistent higher scores with the Divergent diving so at this point based upon those criteria and this project rising to the top we would move forward with this design um if there's feedback from the council if there's feedback from residents County Board of Commissioners are going to see this here uh at their next meeting um you know we we could evaluate but you know consistent with our in other infrastructure improvements the project that best meets our needs from a cost business impact and operations we would be moving forward with this design so it's more just uh sharing it with you if you had some concerns we would take that into consideration as we move through the design process but but really just kind of sharing information there's no City action required uh for our submitt to M that if you wanted to you could provide a l resolution we haven't done that historically but that's an option that you could consider as well I mean based on everything we heard heard I mean I don't feel comfortable unless there's some major red flags over the next couple weeks that we get from other engagement the the staff recommendation sense I just want to clarify the board has already seen both options that's right so um so what we would be looking for is if you strongly favor one over the other kind of your general Impressions knowing that there's going to be another open house on the 19th but I don't know that we'll have the opportunity to come back to you formally before we'd be looking for some kind of resolution because we we're gonna have to boot that February 1 deadline so if you're T trending one way that would be nice to kind of direct but not a final decision but so did the board have a preference we wanted to hear from the city I mean there there are definitely City street impacts with putting in a new 1704 and I mean the The Interchange has more impact to city streets on the more traditional um one so well I'm a little confused on the fact that you're having I I don't fact that we're having an open house on December 19th is great but if you have bodies like the Lakeville city council saying we're trending towards this diverging diamond and yet you're giving them both choices I guess I feel I would feel more comfortable if if both choices were there that somehow or another signage said and the city council is leaning this way what's your opinion because I don't understand I would rather see One op put out there for more public comment than have two if the bodies between the county and the county hasn't made a choice but if Lakeville the city council is saying we prefer this one then why would we give two options at the 19th um uh as as a project management team uh we met with our elected officials uh our our local uh representatives and Senators um sharing the same information that we did with you um and um I think there's an interest in just making sure that we're transparent I I don't um I would reframe it as not saying public here's your choices it's more here's the process that we've walked through we've looked at these kind of two and this is the one that consistently scores so I think it's an effort to be transparent and share with the public we looked at kind of that uh a design here and we saw the impacts to businesses to local roads and then we looked at this one and this one consistently offers better operations less impacts and so I think it's just an effort to to share with residents uh not necessarily we're not looking for residents to pick one or the other um you know we feel as as as staff and and then you know working for the council and and we're our job is to give you recommend and share with you what we feel is going to best meet the public need so on the 19th of September how many options did you show on that uh I don't remember was there five at least yeah there's we we started with 11 um and I think we had five it sounds like I can't remember to be honest but sounds like five is what the count is sharing with me yeah and and at that time again it was just to demonstrate that we're we're really looking we're at kind of an accelerated time frame but we're looking at different options what we don't want to have is to move forward with the design scene we didn't explore this we didn't understand the impacts to 174 Street we didn't understand the volumes on 175th street so we feel confident as as City County and State uh staff that we've looked at all of these impacts and consistently this diverging diamond is rising to the top and that's what we'll share with the public so the the public hearing or the public me meeting is a county meeting right yes te know if there's anybody either commissioner or County staff that want to weigh the best practice on having it to or yeah Douger Barry from Dakota County project manager Zack maybe Pull up The Matrix with the five um I just want to note that we'll have all five represented at the meeting however we will tell the story that the two that are circled here and you'll see something just like this at the meting meeting that those two uh jumped out as being the better the better couple of choices for for final evaluation and they were subject to a greater level of traffic modeling and that continues by the way I mean the issue of of how how traffic really moves through these designs is still being looked at and that that'll continue to be a factor but um I agree with you know what Zach has represented that all indications are that the diverging diamond as you can see from the you know from those three up arrows under mobility and safety that it performs at a higher level um it seems to involve less you know less impact and cost potentially costs little little bit of a close call but we we have less RightWay impact it would seem um and and less property impact um 175th was you know if you go back to the layout Zach I'll just briefly mention the 174 on this one you know and it's just a it's just an expanded view on the left side there um putting 174 through as was looked at 20 years ago uh that seemed to be something that might be necessary for the system but if you go to the diverging diamond now when we looked at how we could play with 175th and they had the signal uh we kind of found yeah it can work so it it kind of changed the dynamic a little bit we were concerned about whether 175th could function the signals necessary at 175th because it allows to to release the queue um that forms especially uh westbound in the AM and many times of the day so you need you need an opportunity for that queue to go and that's primarily what that signal does and I think the other thing that I would highlight too is some of the benefits that we got from that first Public House was meeting with some of our our business owners and that is in part two um I will say this at that first open house wasn't represented that way we hadn't shifted it further south so as as as we continue to have dialogue and we talked about that fine-tuning element this this is definitely reflective of conversations that we had to try to make sure we make that as good and clear of an an intersection as possible so I have a question um it had to do with the notification so 3,000 letters or whatever is going out was that what went out before 3,000 of them and you got 120 people to respond um probably something approaching that yeah um that's the notice that went out um we had a meeting of Mr Holberg and I and some staff for that meeting and really made sure that the county put a pretty big radius on there but yeah it was really was that many not cards 120 I think is a lot I I I was I will I will sh I was pretty of responses I I you know that's and that's just a personal thing so and you guys are happy I should be happy I would like to see work when was this public notice sent out I never got one and that's just that was going to be my other question this guard hit the Mel at the end of last week so it's arriving um within day I would guess I canot I have tenants received that letter and call called me so okay so they just got it today in in the red okay but what was the maybe Mr G your being on judicial maybe not going to go to you I don't know what the radius is of 3,000 it seems like a small number well this this first meeting that you had back a couple weeks ago you talking about here was just notic meeting coming up yes sir it's for the one it's for the one that's going to be on the 19th yeah and and you say you only got 120 responses for the SE September 19th meeting the one that was three okay that's the one I'm talking about I never got notice of that meeting you probably yeah you probably you probably won't get a not this one that's what that's what I'm trying to clarify Mr D is what the radius is how they're trying to get the in information from the public with the 3,000 and who they chose you know that kind of thing to because yes I would want so now you know so I hope you'll be at the 19th meeting but how do you get the word out so that it can broader than the 3,000 notices Yeah well yeah I I think when we reviewed this when we sent this out I think we basically covered Doug Greg me except for maybe the route around the lake I think we mailed within a pretty wide area it's roughly a mile radius yeah so it you know it looks large to rly it it does end up being in the ring it's more than 3,000 addresses um and you know the the response ratio in terms of people attending the meeting meeting is lower than the actual response ratio in total because we get comments from people who don't come uh quite a few actually I've got an email list that's grown to around 200 more so yeah the the ratio that we get out of uh out of a geographic area like that is not incredibly High um and part of it is that there are many people who are not right there at Ground Zero of the of the project so that they're not as interested and we also decided to expand it larger than what's normal significantly larger and there's also a link on the County's website for this they have a project page that you can sign up and get email notices about it I guess I'm just thinking about the fact that not everybody lives a mile from the effect but a gazillion people use it right so I'm just you know that's the issue I'm trying to figure out in my head is the gazillion people that use it I would think that they would want their input we publicize it through all of our normal matters uh the chamber puts it out several times through the through their things um you know we have 18,000 households in the city I don't know if we can send it to every household but we try to communicate we put it in the paper in our normal things um we put it out as as much as we can um it's also going to be tough around the holidays we know that um to get people to show up I don't know if there's any way around it with the deadline that's coming up in in February and please know I'm not trying to be super critical I'm just trying to figure out the logistics of how it was all set up to go so um I'm not trying to make anybody defensive I just trying to figure out you know how to get that input because this is really the last input for a long time council member I I would say that we always um public Outreach is an ongoing effort we're always exploring trying to find a ways to improve things um to to reach folks uh we try different things some things work some things don't so so you'll be having the communications go to the um next door Community Information there we you'll be using social media here every day in the next yeah I don't week or so to be able to for people to be able to know that else is happening yeah I don't know if that's every day but we certainly work closely with our Communications manager to make sure we're utilizing social media we use our electronic sign in the front of city so we do try a number of ways to reach folks um just as in general i' say you know some sometimes we have success uh I would I would uh agree with with the mayor that the 12 120 people was was good that's more than we typically see usually it's you know 20 to 40 so from that standpoint it was a positive but uh certainly acknowledging your perspective and and certainly we want to get it out as as much as we can it's a it's a two-way street obviously I mean we need folks to contact us and ask questions but we'll continue to strive to make sure that we get the message out to folks and gather feedback this will still be Ono and the question the comments by their council members they're still going to be designed this is just the very beginning of the project so appreciate that Zach one more quick question it isn't anything on your map but the that particular model shows 175th basically staying straight and having an intersection currently it Curves in cross's Kenwood Trail uh over to like 176 Street is anything going to happen with that intersection uh I'm sorry con which which one was that so you're coming on you're coming West on 175th Street yep with the new with that model that you had you would just keep going straight correct currently it curves to the left and then there's an intersection where you know some people that use that access their favorite restaurants and hardware stores um is there anything do you anticipate any changes to that intersection basically would be it would have been 175th and K 176 and K T Taylor can you give us back sorry because they're close those would be two really close signalized intersections what do I do check the connection oh um to answer your to your question uh there aren't any changes proposed at that intersection as far as geometrics or physical I'm trying to see this should pop up in a second um but as as far far as signal timing and coordination um as as mrry mentioned that would be part of this process and that's the reason for those traffic signals to make sure that we have that all coordinated there's quite a heavy FL you can you can see it in this image here uh there there's quite a flow of traffic there yeah um so that's the purpose so you're right there it's a closer proximity than than we'd be accustomed to but it's part of moving all this traffic through the corridor great question thank you yeah just want to see if there's any Chang comment on you got the county here in the city I like the roundabouts it seems like my life is split up into thirds I sleep one third I eat eat and drink the other third and then I'm sitting at red lights so if you can actually put in a roundabout at 172s that would be a good start to have one because that's going to be a tie up for the traffic in the afternoon going north they just get through the inter section at the interstate and now we got to stop at a light that's going to be a big tie up right there all right thank you Mr we'll take a look at that as rep process any other conversation about ench thank you to the county and everybody for showing up appreciate it I tried to get you out here app all right um we're going to move on to the Cherie Park and fire station proposal I don't think our Fire Chief and our part director have ever presented together this Council I'll te this off and then pass it over to to Mike and Joe as you know as through the process of um looking at fire stations we've been looking at an option to consolidate for down to need to find some land for such and we've been identifying the area in the Cedar and 179 Cedar dot area as that location was by a study that um we commissioned a couple years ago we looking for sites and as we did that we came across some land that we already owned in the Cher Park area so tonight we just wanted to run that by you um I will say if this is something that the council wants us to move forward with we have not initiated any Outreach with the neighborhood on this yet at all and so that would something that we would suggest that we do some feedback them if that is something that you if you decide not that this isn't this is a non-starter um we will continue to proceed and and look at some land acquisition opportunities that were and works already as well mayor council so uh you had the memo up so I thought I'd just go to the the the drawing of what it would look like as far as that so uh we've used cnh as far as to kind of do our initial drawing of a station what does that look like and then uh we met with Joe and his staff and then they took the that drawing and kind of added the features and how would we have to potentially rework the park some of the the things that we highlighted in the the memo as far as key discussions was the the baseball diamond uh baseball park the the playground to make everything kind of fit in that I think there's still more work to do we to proceed forward with this as far as that but uh I think it it potentially has a good fit it gives us good access as far as response to 175th if we need to go westbound uh we have Glacier and then we can run uh down to 179 that connect with cedar if we need to go southbound Northbound the glacier gives us that same Avenue too uh as far as uh fitting in there it you know from initial design it it looks like everything is would work well like I said there's just some tweaks and and Jo if you want to add anything to this sure yeah no and I guess I would say from from our perspective our goal was to make sure that we were either maintaining the similar amenities or improved amenities uh we know from um user feedback parking has been an issue at the the location we use this quite a bit for our own programming um so parking has been an issue layout and kind of the configuration and the way that like the pleasure rink and the hockey rank work so there's actually some some decent Park improvements here even though we've reduced the amount of space just to kind utilized very well anyway right I mean as far as the space goes for aart the the corner uh that's in Orange actually we really don't use it all anymore it's mowed once a year it used to be uh an athletic deck it um didn't meet that need anymore um it was um the drainage was Bor U so really you're right a large portion of it uh was no longer really being used it was just the diamond um that is really being impacted but shifting it you know required us several other items so so from just kind of a general layout the as you look at the where the fire station sits the firefighter and administration parking is kind of on this back side of it and as Joe mentioned the the public parking would serve both for the park and then if we have visitors coming to the station uh so that that serves that dual purpose of making that and creating more spaces I think we initially had 70 some spots and we reduced it down to 66 uh roughly to kind of make everything fit where it is uh I guess that's kind of the gist of everything that we have there the station does accommodate uh potentially if AA wants to uh move into there as a base I think there's some things that we have to look at and consider for that but there's that potential but again that's a further conversation that we have to have with L if this is something that's even interest to them um the only other thing I would add is the the tunnel under 175th Street the grades there were were chall in so we did need to relocate the paths um so the the one that runs along 175th um over to that connection over by the old DOD that would be eliminated uh so we'd really be routing people now through the park and kind of around the station which I think works better in the long run anyway for safety so um and then just really looking at some of the amenity upgrades as we have an opportunity now because we're sharing a pleasure rink and a diamond we'll be able to use the lights that are already there uh that light the pleasure rink um for the baseball diamond so there's there's just some good good improvements there I would say would you the initial version of this that I saw all the parking was kind of combined um for public access to the fire station and park and this model um what about folks trying to use the fire station parking for the basketball court the diamond you think there's a landscape plan might assist with that or do you have concerns about that I think that's something we'd have to to look at and get down to those the finer detail of it this is kind of give us that high level overview of can it be done for one is there interest to move forward uh we did have a quick conversation of do we add like the basketball court do we add some Landscaping screening and such do we put signage so to access kind of the the parking on the backside that's close to the basketball is you'd have to come On The Backs side of the station so we could that is firefighter only access so that's where our firefighters would be parking fire admin firefighters responding to that station would be driving into the the back side of the station so making sure that that's clearly marked not for Public Access if that makes sense and I think there's going to be some grade changes there also just going from uh because the fire station is going need to be raised up a bit so that's going to help I think some natural um some plantings would help also we're also going to need to potentially look at a fence along Ong the playground just because proximity to 175th street so I think there's some things like that that we will need to continue to look at um but as a general concept goal one was does it fit so so have we've done any kind of evaluation on land acquisition cost savings versus cost to do some of these changes of the park we've not looked at the park um amenity updates yet uh and there's some options in there as well you know replacing the warming house and looking at this as an opportunity to add permanent restrooms that's something I think that we need to discuss further and look at costs at um I believe you had a cost estimate for the land acquisition so we have two million in the budget um the pro foro for land acquisition but we weren't going to to buy P of land for two right that's kind of the whole deal we in negotiations yeah okay so obviously in my mind as long as the park improvements year are less than the two million we're coming out ahead I think you know we probably can some of these and I've been Frank with Joe on this some of these you know we're not giving Joe a free new park based on on the fire department di right so um some of these are going to have to be done there's also some maybe some nice to haves or want to have in there's too as well so we'll we'll do the absolutely we'll do the need to haves and you know we'll try to upgrade as we can um but I think overall this would be coming out and we did note since this plan was done um the playground was put in in 2019 so we don't need to replace playround we just need to relocate it so I mean so there are some amenities that can be reused as it is so as part of that 2019 uh remodel were these the amenities that were surveyed from the the neighborhood and should we keep all of these is the basketball court still needed yeah I mean that's it's a very good question so the the unique part about chair review for us is that it is it houses the majority of our wreck programs so um rev Sports and a lot of those summer programs run out of this facility because it has all of those amenities um so there's there are a few other options for us that are structured this way and that was really kind of the Catalyst for looking at the permanent restrooms uh this could then become the the house the home for um our rec program so not Grand Prairie not Grand Prairie nope no not for what we do with that uh the youth programming really those you know at this point we're talking you know three four five six year olds this is this is a better location for that and they use so Grand prair is not going to have basketball that is part of that programming um there's there's other amenities here that just fit better so I'm impressed I think it's smart I think it's uh we're adding value to the park and dealing with our land issues so Kudos on Ingenuity here yeah I agree Whoever thought theya get on me um unless unless it's was like 15 of you and then you're all like um I would just say I I thank you Justin for talking about the neighborhood feedback because I when the county was pursuing not here but near there to build a recycling center we got a lot of feedback and I don't know they didn't really understand what was going there but I think there will be some people that have some opinions about even though I think it's a good sure there will be you know we'll have to emphasize that we're not taking away a park that right doing it um I think um it also has some Community engagement opportunities with the fire department some people that are there um so I think Insurance R positives we saw this with the Public Safety Committee and I agree a very impressive great use of the land as a uh former t-ball coach putting that baseball field at a parking wow Brant um but everything with the park is is convenient with the parking um I think I agree too there's some real uh Community engagement opportunities but there's also you have hockey going on you have skating going on you have playgrounds going on and you have you know they're not always at the fire station but you have emergency medical personnel like right there um I I think it's huge I think think I I really like the design yeah I I would really encourage to think about how we can make sure that there's like the right synergies so that you know firefighters that are living there can obviously play basketball whatever and all that kind of stuff too I think that makes a ton of sense to have that I I did notice that the half court basketball is going to a full court it did go to full court we did sneak that in that true it'll be red though um adjacent to this because I agree with the Council of s sector's good support for this idea but I just the thing that I keep also thinking about is a change in location changes the radius of our current firefighter payon call policy you know we've got a policy in place that you have to be within certain radius of the station and so as we continue down this pathway our are we looking at that to ensure that we're not pulling folks out of that radius or you know with the change in um how we are Staffing the stations does that allow us to expand that radius and all that kind of stuff what I would say you know for the future as we continue going down the path that we're we're moving towards is initially the obviously that station two if that you know we move down this path and station two goes away those firefighters are going to get grandfathered Station 4 is going to become part of this so it's going to kind of be a blended but I eventually see us going to more of your working a scheduled shift versus we're looking for that call back if that makes sense because we're we're going to be able to to have trucks staffed at a more frequent or better basis than what we do today uh but that's that right that radius would would increase yep be necessary if you yeah I would say down further down the road it would probably not be necessary but in the next col three years we're going to probably have to increase that distance that time response from their home to the station so in the very long term then if you're talking about shifts they wouldn't even have to live in the city potentially you could do that uh and I'll use like Farmington as an example they have a response so we have people literally that are in the city of Lakeville that are on farmington's pan call uh and I'll say Eden Prairie just went away from their residency requirement that you have to live within the city to be on the fire department they didn't have necessarily that you had be within a time frame of a station but you had to be a resident they this year is the first year that they've removed that I don't necessarily say that we would remove that initially it would be more of if we're looking for a truck to have a firefighter a seat filled by a firefighter in its pay on call that they'd be a resident of the city and not necessarily are they within five minutes 10 minutes of a station but that's something that's at least you know I'll say probably minimum three if not five years down the road from here other feedback no I think this is a good idea to tweak yeah so what what are the next steps we have neighor meeting stuff or bu stuff or what so I I briefly spoke with chne um we have a pretty good next door radius in this area I think we'll do um I'll talk about some other things too um I'd like to make that a pretty short window for feedback just because we would like toas cnh and srf and our designes on this so um realize on that there's the holidays we'll get something out through the first of the year most likely unless we hear extensive negative feedback um we will probably have have the Architects start to move forward on plans instead of an iners if you'd like to do an iners Mee we can probably schedule one um I AG either way I don't maybe see how the first round of like online stuff goes and maybe we can do a mailer too to the general area yeah if we do a mailer with uh online resp so if we hear significant feedback um we'd probably have to come back to you and talk maybe at the January work session yeah I just in these type of what I call a little bit of a sensitive the confusion on what it really means I think you get missed reading everything and so the meeting gives you the chance to interact and answer questions yeah I think I mean now I think we probably should hold any person one um and we can do that after the first year probably still need some okay I mean just so somebody says like as I had somebody today ask when I put on Facebook um is this gonna impact the skating rank if you can't read the F detail I get ask the green green lines on the map RCP is that drainage y That's drainage okay thank you guys collector py okay all right so we'll turn it over to Julie on the financial metrics reinforce conrete P I got the right thanks Mr Mayor and council members um the first time you were shown the financial metrics report was in 2023 um and this is it's another like kind high level report of a lot of things that you've seen already another report so um this is something that the finance committee uh was run through them as far as any kind of tweaks that you would like to see and and recommendations from them and then the plan is that we would update this every year we put in the Moody's latest credit opinion um because that's kind of what this is all driving to it's the fund balance policy that we're adhering to and it's also meeting our pay as you go um requirements for equipment and vehicles all that and so we've laid out um and again this is mostly I'll just let you guys just look at it that's okay but um high level um it's show there's a lot of different graphs there's um the market value growth a big spike we had in 2023 with all the valuations that were um increased a lot um those stabilized and even in 2025 was quite wellow for that increase but if you're looking at um the slide where it's the tax B market value the little charts those ones that one shows you a lot with this how our mix has changed you know we it was I mean the residential percentage is about the same but the commercial um is now split out more into apartments and Industrial so there's a bigger spread with those um that type of Market values and um just the increase overall I mean we've increased almost 8 billion since 2012 of for total tax base um but I thought that was um helpful to see too how that mix has changed um over the years so um our fund balance policy and you seing this with the truth and Taxation meeting and in our work sessions too we are seeing right at um the top right at that just under the 50% of the fund balance policy um and as we've talked about before we know we've got some big a Spate coming in 2028 when the safer Grant is gone so we're our plan is to build those reserves up um and and keeping our fund balance healthy but not overly those restrict if we restrict that fund balance for covering the safer the firefighters when safer is gone that's what it'll will still be at the 50% fund balance I'm trying to say that in a way that's not too complicated um and then also to thanks Joshua for mentioning that the meeting um about the two the spikes in 20 in 2021 the spikes and our fund balance that were due to the car's money and then the ARA money that we got those are just timing issues that that supply place spice were there um looking at like the debt limitations and our goals um there's there's things that we are keeping an as we do grow still making sure that we stay within those ratios that are the AAA level with moodies so um keeping that in mind as we continue as we issue their debt each year and making sure that these are falling within those guidelines so we don't raise any red flaks in Moody eyes um the there's a charts on the equipment plan these these guys here um equipment plan and the facilities and T and those are all taken from the CIP they're a little condensed to just look at here's the next five years because in the CIP you see it going out um several years and that was a recommendation from the finance committee by okay the the more current the years that are coming up sooner are more solid even though we adjust these every year we have a better feel for what we would need in the next five years than we do 10 years down the road so it would they felt it was misleading to include those farther out years that may be understated because we haven't got everything that we know we will need to know yeah I'd be I'd be curious to get your perspective and the committee's perspective on giving some examples of what the equipment is I mean when you're approaching 3.2 million in 2027 just like putting just a couple bullets on what we're talking about might just be helpful to put some color okay yep and I can do that there yeah that's kind of what I expected so just so people I mean if if the Dr public is looking at this like what are we buying in right I get that that's expensive I think people probably don't realize how much and and just to that point we're also going to be re looking at the compl fleet and seeing if we can maybe delay a year or two on some of the smaller smaller items $70,000 vehicles or whatever um if they're really not in poor condition to try and fan out that big spike of what that fire engine is going to do in 2027 so but I can definitely put in um either notes in the narrative or just putting a bullet point right off of that that tall graph there um what the drivers of that are yeah I mean particular 27 so much bigger um so can I sure just back up the so each of these graph that you're showing us or each of these pages is what you plan to show the public on the website is that what you saying they just stayed within this report um and these were they're all part of the CIP document which is also on the city website but in the CIP you see all the you see I believe 10 years out no no I I get that no I'm what I'm trying to figure out is um just as like the mayor said can you make this bull point so it's a little more clear for the public I'm trying to figure out are all these slides supposed to be something for the public well it would be part of this this report that will be in the council packet that's next week that's a it's just a report and the council just does an acceptance of it okay I for some reason in my mind I thought you were G to have some sort of section on the website that had a dashboard of where we were at for the public no okay so this report will be on the website yeah well then if if that's the case then you might want to have a link to the full-time years if they want to know so because the the CIP which has all the years on it is another doc maybe referencing it I understand the recommendation from the finance committee I thought it was because for the public to consume in it's just easier just to have the five years but if they wanted further deeper information on the CIP somewhere I have a link to the full document I don't that's all I'm saying I get and that's on the website as well CIP so having a narrative that says well I I thought it would be on the slide the equipment plant you know whatever just to I'm not you know what here's the thing I'm not clear enough in my own muddy brain how this document is used by the public or not and it sounds like it's almost not if I if I mind um the discussions that we had in the finance committee was to provide a document that would be for Council use uh and um uh we furthermore uh were concerned and considered whether to not give out or include anything in it that is more than five years the reason for that uh is that uh we think it's misleading to assume that there's not going to be any additional uh debt or expense um once you get out between five and 10 years because uh a lot changes um if you look back at where the council this Council was five years ago uh we wouldn't have anticipated the uh expenses that uh that were uh incurring uh and the uh the debt that we are are U adding at the this point so um I think that the emphasis uh should be that this is for the council's use uh which uh gives you I think a a good U uh visual of what is going on uh relative to the policies that you have the um sustainability and resiliency policy and the U and the debt policy um now whether whether you want to make this uh more of a public kind of a presentation um is something for I think for you to consider and decide what what you'd like to do in that regard but as we designed this U this was U the emphasis was on providing something that was a visual for the uh for the council that would be updated on a regular basis so that you could see how things work for developing um and I'm not saying to then to take I misunderstood the very first statement you made or something I must have heard this was for the public consumption and generalize this is for Council consumption so um you know need so I I mean you don't even need to taking their suggestion but why reference the truck if this is just for our consumption just so that we remember there's a fire track but well no because I mean anything that's for us is also a public document right right I guess that was also my next point that these slides do look like they're more Council oriented meaning that we already have knowledge behind all of them and that public consumption of looking at them is not going to be very like the word that they would use transparent and I'm not saying we're not being transparent it I don't how to explain they're not going to understand it as thoroughly it's not yeah well reader friendly it's not even I don't know how to explain it better than that but you know sometimes when you sometimes you have to think at a lower level I'm not saying dumb down but um you have to talk their language versus Talking our language I don't know how to explain that any better but so if they can also just e as far as I'm concerned as long as there's some point since this is you know the public does have access to this as long as there's some means to say if if you have questions that up or email so and so or something so because it's not to me it's not public friendly I am I mean kind of following up on the current conversation I I appreciate this oh I do too because of the um the breath of the information we receive in terms of the budget this is in my mind this is a dashboard yes that allows us to At a Glance see what's going on in terms of you know our taxable market value our funding um our Capital expenses in my mind this is a great way for us to see and to be able to tell the public that we do keep an eye on this it isn't just once a year when it's budget time looking at a huge long spreadsheet um this is a regular way that we are keeping um it is a public document because if somebody makes a request and wants to see if they certainly can I would encourage a disclaimer at the very beginning of the document that says this is an overview um this is not in detail this is meant of the dashboard to allow your elected leaders to keep uh keep a breast of the financial condition of our city and how our policies are working this is the biggest thing for us is is how are our policies uh affecting the the budget so I think if we had something like that uh then people would know upfront that it's a tool that we're using you can certainly look at it because it's public data but that this is why we have it why we're using it and I think the the same kind of uh companion disclaimer about uh the uh years when you get out more than five years which is which we did add in because this is the five years is the most because after five years you're guessing we we're confident of the five years yeah U because of what we know at this point um but um but we just nothing has been added in for more than five years well we have we do I mean there are things added in there there's things that because you'll see in the 10 year there's definitely costs in there have we captured them all yeah probably not so that's why we put the disclaimer project potentially does not include all of those things that are farther out right the best guess that we have right today we we haven't included new new uh unanticipated projects that are more than five years out this reading through this prod up uh question or realization to me because there's a prompt in here about does the council have preferences in terms of types of development and encouraging or discouraging certain things we've seen before graphs that show the percentage of land uses you know commercial industrial and residential around the city and when we think about what we consider balanced from a land use perspective it seems like they were balanced but from a valuation standpoint it doesn't seem as balanced to me um and so I guess that that was the question that I had is that do we anticipate the valuations to be more similar to the balanced land uses that we have or do we need to recalibrate so that the valuations are more in line with does that make sense yeah I mean I think if I hear you right if you look at our land use map and you look at the colors y we're majority residential City it's no surprise to me that the more vast majority of our taxable market value is on the residential side but does the do the valuations match up to what our percentage I'd be surprised if it's one for one but um I don't know if that's a goal you I think it comes down to U the uh assessment uh process and um if you're building a a very much more expensive building on a piece of land uh that's that's going to skew the the balance between uh the uh percentage of land use and the U and the uh the total value um so it U I think you're always going to be dealing with that depending on how that land is used maybe I'm remembering incorrectly I just I thought we would have higher valuations not to I know we're a bedroom community but we have several commercial hubs and fairly large industrial park so I just I thought those numbers would be higher knowing also that we have lots of developable say lots we still have significant um areas to develop yet when we're built out does that valuation balance is that is that where where we want to be um is I guess the bigger question um and this made at the point of the prompt um um and up to that point too there was mentioned in a year ago does the council is it helpful to see comparative ly what do these pie charts look for our neighboring cities or comparable cities is that data that's important um possibly you know I mean we're never comparing Apples to Apples the like we're okay talk about franchise fees not everybody has them you know but then and you got local government Aid and not everybody gets that so there's there's a lot of dynamics that go into make that even our neighboring cities aren't exactly like we are structured like we are so um I'm not sure how helpful that comparative is but you know that that's something you think is important to measure against well it's easy enough that we've got the data it's already it's gonna e and flow I mean the difference between the commercial between 2012 and 2025 as a percentage um is down you know half done from 10 and a half from 10 to five I think that reflects just the general economy right that's nothing that we did on purpose it's not like we discouraged commercial um you know on the contrary we're trying to encourage it so um again I don't know I don't know if it should be a goal that our taxable market value should match up one for one with the land use I just I don't know good or bad of that yeah but I would say I would discourage resoning today's commercial land country just because of you know and that's just because commercial land is a dimension asset for us every year watch Acres we yeah we've had that conversation before and I think there's been very strong opinions about that and I think to me this reinforces that that mindset right to not the nice thing about this kind of report is it shows you that information so that you can discuss it gives you some facts to work from oh the report's good so I don't know why I'm coming off as negative Melly in every subject today and I because that's not my intent just it's really my intent to just really understand what it is that is being presented and to whom is the audience with it you are you are the audience for this because of the high level right now now I got this is a technical this is a technical document that you have to have expertise to really understand right and to answer your question about data from other cities I I don't think that's necessary or you healthy this is about our policies and other cities don't have the same policies so to start comparing to people that you know I think this really gives a good picture of where we're at with our policies um so I I would is discouraged and you could think of a million things to add to this and all of a sudden you've got this huge unwieldy report that I just love the idea that this is I do think so on the commercial issue though it would be nice to our other Communities going through that same I mean theyve seen declining commercial as part of their total Pie as well even a community like Burnsville that's adding all time all kinds of highdensity Housing and has a ton of pre-existing commercial I mean because to me that's a that's a big glad you pointed that out because that's the big challenge we've got here the commercial growth is just not keeping pace and when the city's fully developed that means homeowners are going to be the ones paying you I mean it's a headline for about Minneapolis and then St Paul andan I mean it's yeah I mean into a comp plan process as well I mean is there something we can do there to look get commercial I mean we had that in Regional Council of Mayors today you know looking at what is the federal government going to tackle the next several years and that was the top five issue was commercial industrial decline yeah I think that could be like a subset report if there's a specific issue like that um Julie says the information is available it's a matter of just uh preparing a separate uh report on the on the subject like that I mean maybe ours isn't down as much as other well and then at what point then do you start talking about the annexation conversations we've had for industrial purposes so I mean there there is some interest out have that conversation can you remind me what the the other what what's market value yeah what's what would be included in other um railroads utilities yeah railroads okay intil that's it yeah exctly thanks um and maybe so that what the that one that blue line that says does the city council have preferences on type of development maybe that doesn't belong in here you know it's just this is this is the status of where things are at right now that shouldn't be okay I'm totally that this is I'll take that out um with that do we still want to have a note about that big spike 2027 in the equipment no because I think we talk about it up I guess I'm I can put a disclaimer at the beginning this is a exe executive summary high level rep report um the council utilizes to make sure we're within our policy yeah exactly we just brought it for you tonight I'm assuming you're good with it the agenda like sent out your next me yeah a good report yeah good thank you thank you um moving on any items for future discussion many your city administer updates we just we just okay um with that I will take a motion to adjourn I move to ajour there second okay than PA in favor say I I post meting next week could be pretty short the bading firefighters but other than that L of consent