##VIDEO ID:v177lHjN4Js## okay so Andrew you're on so we're going to go ahead and give this a whirl so uh let's go ahead and get started um okay I'd like to welcome everyone to the Litton Conservation Commission meeting it's October 22 uh year is 2024 um we are having some technical glitches tonight with some of our members so we asked the uh participants to kind of please uh hang in there with us we do ask that if you would like to um speak that with your name that's presented that you put your full name in um first and last name please um and if you want to be heard um just signify by raising your hand we're going to go ahead and get started we have two minutes to approve the first is we're going to review September 24th uh of 20024 so it's a lot of 24s um does anyone have any omissions or corrections to this draft if not if I can have a motion to approve I'll make a motion that the can you guys hear me by the way is it a little better yeah something's going on with uh the internet connection but hopefully it stays good motion that the uh commission approved the meeting minutes of September 24th 2024 as printed do we have a second second all right Ed Ed F Michael Michael Livingston I Kyle Kyle Maxfield I Sarah Sarah Seward I and myself I it's unanimous excellent okay we're going to move on to October 88th 2024 we have three pages of draft uh minutes I just have one on the last page where it talks about um the presentation town meeting says that I will be doing it Chase will be doing it with me so I want the minutes to reflect that especially seeing he's not here I mean did we discuss that at the Mee I mean I to I'm totally comfortable with you wanting make sure Chase has known that he's but if we didn't talk about it at the meeting I don't know no he well we talked about it I just don't remember that he remembered so as long as we I don't I don't couldn't recall if we actually if we discussed him joining you up there that's fine with me yeah we definitely about it okay great do we have a motion to approve if anyone doesn't have any uh admissions or amendments I'll move that we approve the minutes of October 8 2024 uh with the addition of noting Chase will be uh speaking along with Sarah second roll call vote uh Sarah Sarah Seward I Kai Maxfield I Michael Michael livings tonight Ed Ed FS I myself I it's unanimous okay great um administrative discussions does anyone have anything that they would like to add to this okay that is shocking okay let's go ahead and start with request for minor modification 24 dear Road Mass D 204 884 U 48-40 Amy can you help us with that Mr gilpatrick is coming in okay but he's muted right now there he goes did you want to go ahead and yeah yep if you can hear us please go ahead oh this is interesting Dana can you hear us okay so we can't hear you so um we don't we don't show you as muted so it might just be on on your end in the meantime I I think this will be fairly quick I having a hard time sharing but I can tell you that uh he has an open order of conditions right now um but he has a big Pine kind of very close to the lak shore that got struck by lightning and is split um and is is clearly needs to come down um so we were thinking since it's so close to the water Tim and I can't do administrative approval um so we're thinking just do it as a minor mod to the open order of conditions um after which he'd go ahead and get his certificate of compliance okay that sounds like a great plan of action do we have someone to make that motion I'll make a motion that the commission allowed the minor modification for the order of conditions at 26 Deer Run Road is second second all right roll call vote uh Michael Michael Livingston I Kyle Maxfield I Ed Ed FS I Sarah Sarah Seward I and myself I it's unanimous okay great thank you okay next discussion um which is bpac Boardwalk construct uh connection excuse me of Two Brothers Trail to Lake Shore Drive um Amy do you want to kick us off with that and then we also have a letter that has been submitted of record from um Sarah fos who is in the butter yes I think Jerry is here to talk about it and I can you all saw the letter but so let me know if you want me to read it or not it's it's up on the the web page um y or Jerry can go ahead and lay out this this is just sort of a informational hasn't been a filing on this yet okay great let's go ahead and start thanks Sarah thanks Amy this is Jerry cavalo I represent the bicycle and pedestrian advisory committee um we're here today to talk about um getting some guidance on design requirements for a boardwalk connecting two brothers Trail to Lakeshore Drive I sent you guys a read ahead which has the background scope and everything but I see we have very limited time so let me just skip the background and boil it down to one thing the town now owns a piece of property at the corner of lakes Shore Drive and Aspen Street which will enable us to do a ada8 compliant board Boardwalk all the way from the town beach to Two Brothers Trail which is on the New England forestry Foundation property um this Trail was talked about in the bicycle pedestrian master plan as well as the open space Recreation plan and uh I talked to the select board uh was a month ago today and uh they approved the use of the property for building a trail contingent upon agreement of kcom uh the ada8 plant group in town and any other uh board that has some sort of jurisdiction on it so I thought I'd come to you first because there uh is some thoughts that it's a wet land and uh we may have to have a boardwalk that has certain characteristics that minimize our impact on that Wetland so that's all I really had at this point unless you want me to go into more detail about um how the town acquired property or anything else I can uh if I can share my screen I'll put up the picture of what the area we're talking about just for the rest of the audience that would be great okay let's see so so Amy are you seeing the the map right now no okay so I got to go somewhere and share screen I guess yeah there should be a green oh there we go share and click that and share we are in business I think so um Amy can you see the map um yeah doing my cursor on okay so this is uh where the my little cursor is here that's Long Lake Beach this is Lake Shore Drive and Lake Shore Drive corner of Aspen Street um there is a section of town property actually this is all Town property uh from the smack development all along here between the the road and the lake and this part was in contention and uh as part of a a lawsuit the town got ownership of this in 2020 to build a trail across and this is what we're looking at doing at this point um you can see the red line we'd like to do most of the way is probably a med a boardwalk that all depends on what we find there but we'd like to make it an ada8 compliant Boardwalk so people can come all along here and come to this point and the criticality of this point here is two brothers Trail Ends right on where the rock wall is here and back in 1998 when we built two brothers Trail we anticipated going all the way to town beach but we were held up over the dispute over this property so not only will this Boardwalk be ADA Compliant and allow people to come park at Town Beach come down Lake Shore Drive and come out and have a view from this point but it'll also allow through hikers to go here and all the way over to nef and wherever nef leads you too um see any other pictures so I just put up some other pictures of uh places where they have had a boardwalk uh through a wetland this is what we were starting starting at as a baseline the old Jim O'Neal uh corated pipe and of course it would have to have the the kickers on each side like it does over off Route TOA rout 2A and this is just another shot off of Google Earth actually this is one Amy gave me because it has the lot lines on it that shows um a little more Contour of what it looks like getting over to where we're going so um at this point I I think the advice we got from our conservation agent was to come to the board and say this is what we're thinking of doing uh what is our next step to make this happen he thank you for that Mr cavalo what I'd like to do is to open up uh any questions to the Commissioners um and Susan silverberg I see that you have your hand up um protocol for us is that we'll go through question and answer through the committee Members First and then um WR to our attendees as well so Commissioners questions can you speak to the comment in the letter that there are other Trails already in place and that to put this boardwalk in place would result in damage to the area that might not be needed okay that request was to me yes part of the uh the lawsuit uh the property owner was to give us an access around the back side of the property to uh to connect the two brothers Trail now that's not advantageous for a couple of reasons one it's very steep so it would never be ADA Compliant two it's not Town property it's the landowner's property and we're looking at something for perpetuity here and not just short term and also um I I guess I would have to go back when we worked the last time with the Conservation Commission for when we cut the trees at Oak Hill for a lookout Rock U there was a lot of concern amongst people about us kcom cutting down trees but you couldn't there was no view of Lookout Rock back in 2007 so the time I was with the conservation trust and we got together with you guys and we decided that the overall good of um cutting down the trees to have a view was worth the U as people were saying you know this birds nest in the trees and other things um so I have to say when I go by Oak Hill the parking lots are always packed and I think a lot of it has to do with people like like a view they like to go up there and look around so that's the idea of making this a trail that will be used by folks because it is attractive it has views and it'll be easy to access rather than having to up that steep Trail in the back over got to say from my perspective we've been doing a lot of people asking to cut trees and to say the trees going away is more is is offset by our pleasure and enjoyment of the area I'm I'm I'm becoming more and more inclined toward supporting the animals than supporting us from that perspective so um how I assume when you do finally come you're going to tell us how many trees you're going to want to cut things like that well I mentioned trees because Oak Hill had trees I don't think we're going to cut any trees on this the the concern of the land owners and and folks around there is the uh frogs and other things that live in the Wetland well we would avoid cutting any trees I don't think there's a need to cut any trees with this and the impact of the frogs and other animals in the wetlands well you know any of the Wetland Trails we have now you try we built trails and uh we try to minimize that and that's why I'm looking at what is the least impact um not necessarily promising anybody we're gonna have no impact what do this area I mean I guess we should go out there at some point I'm take a look but you keep saying Wetlands is it Shoreline or is there wetlands in this area are you putting a boardwalk through a wet area what so Amy I should let you talk to that because you've been there more than anybody right yeah depending on on exactly where the boardwalk is um there would be probably some sort of scrubby shrub that needs to be cut part of which could or could not be Wetland and then um partially through either kind of low emergent Wetlands or in to the water itself depending on how far out it gets pushed so I imagine that would all need to be calculated in the filing has anyone done any Wetlands flagging out there at all or Discovery in that area in in the past no no wetlands have been flagged today um the easement is at least almost entirely um have iron rods it's it's been staked although obviously there's a there's an arc to it okay um I certainly agree with with Kyle in terms of at some point having a s sidewalk to be able to walk start to finish what we're looking at and I recognize it's very dry here so it may not be from a you know from other people looking at this it may not look to support Wetlands but we know that that area is wet um any other Commissioners have any other questions before we open it up and and just quickly if if you did a s sidewalk would you want to do it before the filing what are what are your thoughts because that could that could steer this that if it looks like it's going to be impactful the applicant May choose may not be in their best interest I think it would be helpful to take a look before we actually consider a formal application just so we can get an idea of what's out there and uh how uh you know there' be any impacts and that and that certainly is up to the applicant as well so um even with our indications if they still want to go forward that that is still their right so um is that something um Jerry that you would like for us to try and coordinate at some point to do a S sidewalk yes that that would be wonderful okay all right if we don't have any other Comm um questions from Commissioners I'd like to go into the attendees um and Susan if you'd like to I believe you there you go if you can unmute and I'm G to move youut now yep and now you're in as a panelist okay so I just hit got y great so if you can introduce yourself and where you reside that would be great where'd you go she muted hold on one second [Music] Susan and Jerry could you maybe stop screen sharing so Susan if you could unmute yourself you're in the muted so both your microphone and Camera are off okay there you go now Perfect all right excellent Susan silverberg um my property of buts the uh proposed PA and it is definitely Wetlands could you as part part of order Susan Could you um just State your number your residence please oh to Aspen Road thank you okay um my my first question is does this proposal require um permitting by the state under CMR 310 because it's a this is a great Pond and the proposal would substantially alter the shoreline of the Great Pond and require cutting quite a bit of vegetation to get through to Lakeshore drrive so that would have to all yeah that would have to all be part of the appan due diligence and that has to go through the state right if it's a chapter 91 it would to go through the state yeah what's a chapter 91 I'm not sure what you cited but you mentioned it a I was reading a um State M uh Commonwealth of Massachusetts regulation about constructions along the shore of great ponds in which they had very specific requirements in terms of applying for for approval putting out a notice of intent um public um announcements and meetings about it and it would seem to me that this is in fact under that law because it is a substantial modification of a shoreline of a gra Pond and it requires cutting of vegetation well within the limits of the shoreline of gry pond it's quite a bit of vegetation actually to get through it not to mention it's an area that's if those boardwalks that were being shown which are down on the on the very close to the ground this is an area that's regularly used by Turtles to access for nesting some of those Snappers are a good 24 in off the ground so that's going to need to be if you if you're putting in a proposal that has to be taken into consideration um and Susan those are great great points and those are things that would certainly come up through a site walk and I um for my experience a lot of chapter 91s are um people that are also constructing peers docks and having as you say uh significant or even minor alterations to the shorelines um and that's something that we can look into as well um Commissioners do you have questions for um miss silverberg or or any other comments I don't think I have a question I mean I she's she's right about chapter 91 it that will be something that would have to look into um that that permitting process as well so on top of our noi you would have to file for chapter 91 um but I I know feel like we're very in the the prelimary stages of this I I need to see this area before I really make too much more of a judgment did you say 24 in of Snapp like I know oh yeah those big snappers when they stand up on their legs okay they're a good 18 to 24 in and and you can't leave something that they're going to bump into the other thing that the Commissioners I feel should be aware of is the fact that this area along with a lot of other creatures is a shelter and spawning area for uh amphibian that's called the leopard frog this is an animal that's of concern according to the Massachusetts Department of Fish and Wildlife also according surprisingly to the US nuclear regulatory agency which for some reason studied these frogs they're diminishing throughout their um habitat their their more and more places where they were found where they no longer are found they definitely are here I see them all the time and I think those things need to be taken into consideration when you do the walkthrough you're not going to see them because it's out of season it one thought that I had thinking about this well there's two things first of all you can build an ADA Compliant but once they get to the rock wall they can't go anywhere anyway um but secondly that it's without knowing what's really there how do you know what you need to do to protect what's there and we have no idea at this point what's really there to find that out you would need to get like I don't know a couple of graduate students who wanted to take it on as a project and do a year-long study of this place but you can go there now and you're not going to see anything because it's it's almost November and most of the animals that use this area are either hiding in the mud sleeping or they're the dragon flies and the damsel flies they're gone or they're perching bird who've migrated it's going to look dead yep and those are great great points um for for us to consider for sure um thank you yep thank you Commissioners what would you like to do so I think um taking one other hand Sarah Martha fome Martha let me move you over to panelist yeah I just I just let her talk without moving over okay so Martha if you would like to introduce yourself that would be great Martha if you can unmute yourself there you go can everybody hear me yes if you could introduce yourself and put in I'm sorry I thought I was unmuted uh this is John falam Sarah and uh uh Martha and I live at 21 Lakeshore Drive uh right across the street from the lake and uh I just wanted to say I would support leaving this area undisturbed uh we have so little areas that are untouched around the lake uh with the trails that we do have in the conservation land and the proudy woods uh there is a connection a couple of connections to the two brothers Trail now uh I don't believe they're ADA Compliant but of course neither is the two brothers Trail um it's a delightful walk but I I have a hard time imagining that the big payoff uh of this uh proposed Boardwalk is is all that special from somebody who Parks over at the Town Beach uh and and either walks along the the Parkland and there's beautiful Vistas from the Parkland already in fact when you go to this site you'll see between Aspen Road and Birch Road right along the shoreline there it's a big wide open spots kind of the big payoff uh it's a beautiful view but it would not be enhanced by uh by this Boardwalk I think it's very important for us to consider uh leaving undisturbed areas alone uh as trails that are opened along the way with people walking their dogs and jumping off the trail and getting into trouble and chasing anything that moves uh it's just going to destroy this area and and leave less for the Wildlife thank you very much Commissioners do you have any um questions for Mr FAL uh thank you John I was just curious has the association um discussed this project at all um Jerry actually appeared uh at our meeting a couple of months ago uh which we were happy to receive him uh and it's a mixed response uh some of us are very supportive of a trail that goes all the way around and links up the entire Lake uh sort of like Walden Pond it would have to be of course a hybrid because we' need a bridge across the northern tip but uh uh you know that's that's something that's a long range dream but again our concerns also exist for uh for the Wildlife and uh and as much use as long L gets with the beach and boers and fishermen uh we have to we have to respect the uh the wildlife the birds the animals the uh the insects even uh they're running out of space thank you um so we do have to because this was just a discussion item and we do have hearings that we have to take on tonight um so I would leave this up to the Commissioners and also to Mr cavalo as well to taking this in input that you've had tonight also referencing chapter 91 and that you may have to do a Wetlands um alternative analysis and how this would obviously if it is in fact in Wetlands we'd have to look at a what waiver as well I would encourage you to perhaps step back if that's the what the Commissioners think think and make sure that you're prepared to go through all this process um which would be I I believe lengthy um prior to the Commissioners trying to all meet and Walk The Walk The Tour uh of that of the pathway so I would defer to the commissioners of what they would like to do at the present time not sure there's anything for us to do the right now is there that made the the requestor is going to have to figure out where how they want to proceed if they want to proceed and like you said do all this research steps that have to get done up front right any other Commissioners have inputs I I agree with that that sounds like the right thing to go forward with okay so Mr cavalo while there are times that we do um preemptively go out and do site walks especially as we know that we're entering winter for some some of the projects as well but I don't know that it's in the in our best time interest right now to try and gather kind of everyone together to find a time to go walk there knowing these hurdles that you have to be able to present to us but I'm I'm just one vote so what whatever the Commissioners would like to do yeah that's where the commissioner say something I I think I think you're right Sarah I think there's a fair amount of research and like I mentioned that needs to be done before this would come in front of us um I'm I'm usually open to having a sidewalk before we receive an application but I there's a lot of unknowns here between the Wetland delineation in chapter 91 any sort of species that are out there that you're heing from a Butters that could be protected or need protection um I don't see us building this over the winter either so I don't know about you Mr caval if you you're trying to push this to get built this this calendar year or not but that's going to be a pretty tough process at this point I know you know we've been working on this since 1998 so we're uh we're very patient so it's just an odd thing is we or bpac is also a town commission so typically you know if I was a land owner I would go off and hire somebody to do all these things a Wetlands consultant but all we can really do we Advisory Board to the select board we'll go to the select board and say hey spend any money around that we can hire somebody to do these things our impetus is that especially now is that you know at the last uh town meeting we approved the uh um MBTA communities act or whatever which essentially adds over a thousand multif family units to this town of people who will not have large backyards to walk in so the bicycle and pedestrian committee got energized a little bit over this and said you know we've got to lead turn this we've got to start finding places if we're going to invite all these people to town which the town did by making this vote we've got to find a place for them to do their Recreation and go out for a walk we appr appreciate that and we can always encourage them to be good land stewards and help with some of the trails that are existing as well so we're going to go ahead and carry on we appreciate your time but we do have kind of a tight schedule so weird thank you for your presentation and thanks for the ab Butter's input as well we're going to go ahead and move on um we're GNA uh do a request for extension because uh Mr rafay is still on it's zero Lake Drive also known as 12 Ivy Road Mass D 20492 parcel u12 d210 my understanding is that um well actually Amy I'll let you present this that the permit has expired but that they'd already started so looking for an extension yeah exactly the um this was for a single family house and they had started the construction of I guess it's the wall for the the septic system um although it's been quiet for a while and the permit expired this past would have expired this past May uh which is always kind of a great area when you have something that's going under construction so I don't know if Mr Rafi can hear us or if he can unmute so we can hear him I know he's having some technical difficulties earlier so Mr rafy if you can unmute that would be great um Amy what was the date of the extension was a few months ago I mean the expiration pardon me I don't have the DAT it would have been May 2024 okay can you hear me yeah we can go ahead okay uh all I'm asking for is a uh an extension on this permit what happened was I tried to sell the property and I had no interest in buyers for the property so uh that's when the uh permit had actually expired and all I'm asking for is an extension on the permit so that I can continue and I'm going to uh build the house on it uh myself so I'm all I'm asking for is a is a uh extension on the permit okay now uh Amy a question is the site in good operation Good Management in terms of erosion control I haven't been out there in a little while but there was someone working just next door so so we were in and out the erosion controls were still up there had been a little bit of a issue with discharge that actually didn't did not make it to the wetlands and that was taken care of how long extension are we talking about here what are we going through just the one year thing yeah I would not go past one oh well well okay I agree with you Sarah I guess I was Mr I thought you knew I I would make a motion Mr rafy that we will give you a oneyear extension from the date of your expiration so if that was in May you'll have it extended till May very if the commission so wishes to do that that's my motion if somebody wants to Second it yeah I'll second that all right roll call vote Ed Ed FY uh Kyle Kyle Maxi I Sarah Sarah Seward I and I don't see Michael anymore Michael he was getting in and out of the car so oh Michael's back okay oh excellent and myself I it is unanimous so Mr rafy that is subject to so you have your extension um but we have to make sure that your site is in good order so um before you proceed with that so if you want to just connect with the with um Amy or Tim that would be great thank you very much yep thank you okay we are late and we're going to move on to our 7:45 public meeting request for determination of applicability three Sarah Indian way U 25-12 bylaw waiver required rebuilding of an existing structure and this is uh Jay Dolan who is in the audience but he just declined to be promoted to panelist andj if you wanted to to talk you should allow that There He Go so Jay of reference so you need to um display full name for zoom and then also if you'd like to speak to introduce yourself with your residents as well warren j Doan 3 Sarah Indian Way Littleton Mass thank you do do you want to go ahead and tell us a little bit about what you'd like to do please oh um what what there is is there um it's it's on the pond okay and it was a screened in porch that was existing when I bought the property approximately 10 years ago and the person I've been dealing with is Amy and uh I showed her all the picture of the rod it's you know it was probably built maybe 20 years ago and U the structure is a um 14 or 13 and a 12 by 20 screened in porch That's approximately 50 50 feet or uh 40 feet from the waterline and um it's all rotted I um I'm a grandfather I have actually 17 being grandkids and um when they're down there it just became an unsafe unit so actually I uh took it upon myself to start taking it apart and I took pictures as I was taking it apart of all the rot and the Decay and um it was just filled with ants and I showed the Building Commissioner it also and he understood why I why I was asked me to rebuild it it was kind of obvious it wasn't safe and so that's what I'm looking for a permit to rebuild it this same size same structure Amy do we have any photos of the of the actual site Unfortunately they did not do you see the um the plan here and unfortunately the photos of the deck did not make it into the filing itself um I guess the question is are the footings in the same place yeah yeah well um ye yes and no they are uh it didn't have footings before that's where one of the reasons I'm rebuilding it it had railroad ties that were just stuck into the dirt and that's one of the things that caused the problems it's a fail after probably 15 or 20 years they all rot it out so uh our design is to um um unfortunately or fortunately I don't know which way to look at it I did talk to the Building Commissioner and it's there's a lot of Ledger there so I told them it was um the footings that were being put in there uh drilled down as far as we can get I mean dug down as far as we can then we hit solid ledge and we're going to drill the ledge and pin the ledge with one one foot sauna tubes okay which is the proper way of building I do a lot of I am a builder so I do a lot of things and it's a it's the proper it's a much safer and better way to bu uh build this um and with this we've already have put all the hay bales up and we're aware I live there so it's my property I'm very very aware of you know how important the shoreline is you know I own the shoreline so uh we've been very very careful of anything we've done there Amy have you been out to the site uh yes like when when this first all came up um so he he had actually not knowing he needed a permit had started tearing down the porch and rebuilding it when we said you you need a permit and you'll also notice that part of this is also while he's in front of you guys to get the uh the dock into compliance if the commission so agrees um are there Commissioners that would like to go out and take a peek be curious to see the S I like the process that he's describing that makes absolute sense to me I'd like to hear a little bit more about how many we're talking and how much spoiler we're creating while we're doing this but sounds like the the right process okay all right when would be a good time so for the applicant what the Commissioners are requesting is to come out and see this site and then that way they would be able to make um their educated determination of that so Commissioners I will leave it up to you to schedule the next meeting is November 12th so it would be helpful to have um Commissioners out prior to November 12th somebody want to throw a date or time out oh what is the property owner how's there availability I mean I personally the middle of the day has always worked better for me um but as we get into get into fall my evenings will be a little bit more flexible the daylight won't be but my time will be I'm I'm very flexible to you uh I work locally um I I work in Acton so I'm always within five miles of the property you know I'm looking at the pictures um unfortunately the pictures of the existing structure were the most important thing that showed all the the rotted Lumber and the Decay and all that stuff um what I think Amy has on the screens is for the secondary thing that she said while we're doing this she says this there's new rulings about uh getting permitted for docks I guess a lot of the people on Fort Pond or Long Pond whatever I guess we all have to get permits now to have docks that that dock there U was an existing dock back 1550 well when I bought the proper and I agree Amy Amy did disclose that unfortunately those other pictures were left out of the slide deck that she has and so that and that um the docking system is for everyone in the Commonwealth it's not just Litton so coming back to Commissioners is there a time that you'd like to meet out on site um I the day is best for me I can't do during the day but I can do the weekend or uh five o'clock like we did the other day Okay so perhaps we can do two it sounds like Kyle and Michael can do middle of the day in I would be with Ed um you know five o'clock and after during the week okay let's let's go ahead and just throw two out for the applicant it doesn't matter like I said I'm I'm local so uh it's important to me to you know to to get this over with okay Kyle Michael Ed Andrew I can do really any day next week this week um will be difficult but uh any day next week's all right don't forget we have town meeting on Tuesday yeah um and I'm meeting I think what is it and Ed on was it Wednesday or Thursday I forget now you'll have to remind me on that one because I don't Wednesday the 30th at 6 all right well then that leaves next week will be Thursday Friday Saturday Thursday's Halloween I don't know if that makes a difference I'm a little old for trick-or-treating so Kyle and Michael you're you're during the day let's choose a date and then Ed and Andrew um in evening or weekend let's see uh next week is a little crazy with uh meetings and town meeting um unless Friday would be the only day next week with everything that's already on I look at the week after too maybe yeah yeah Michael I'm available Thursday or Friday at noon the 31st of the 1st or we could push it to the following week um why don't I I could how about if we pick Friday to the 1 right of the 1 yeah okay so we have on November one yep so we have one for November one at noon and then Ed and Andrew you looking at the following week let's see Edwood uh November 6 at like 510 work for you no I will point out there's a social event Wednesday at 5 which I think I told you guys about at dur I'll be there um so November 6 at 10 after 5 sure okay so Jay tentatively well not tentatively we've got it posted for um Friday November 1st at noon and then November 6th right after work at 510 okay okay great so there's two groups to the meeting yes yep okay that would be great all right and then with your permission we would go ahead and move you on to the next meeting which is November 12th yep okay great thank you have a great evening thank you and this now 8:20 we're going to go ahead open the 8:00 P.M continued public hearing 161 to hadwan um is there a mast EP number yet yes there is no comments okay um this does require a bylaw waiver and continued discussion on the enforcement order installation of a septic system and restoration of cut trees Amy you had something about an additional tree and yep Alexander you're on mute so if you want to unmute that would be great yes thank you Alexander esman 161 toah hadan Road and I have Jack joining as well who's been helping with the septic plans okay you want to bring us up to date um Jack start yeah can I bring up the can I share my screen sure thank you all right can everyone see that yes thank you all right right so the there has been a slight change in the septic design since uh the last meeting uh we received noober Board of Health comments I think the day either the day before or the day of the uh the last conservation hearing uh the change was that we pull the poly barrier in from 15 feet to 10 feet and regrade that back slope from 2 to1 to a 3:1 slope which actually will be uh conservation wise a lot better uh a little bit less steep um for replanting uh seeds uh grass sorry uh other than that the plan has stayed the same um Alex if you want I did add the the other stuff to the second page of this uh I'll pull it up because I have the full deck but all right I guess before I go to the tree replanting okay any questions on the septic part of things and I'll point out that it's not actually my yeah it's not the septic system that needed the waiver it was the replanting of the trees oh that sounds good go ahead Alexander yes great uh let me pull up the PDF here so I was able to have Tim and Amy come to the property uh right after our last meeting we did a walkr together and um figured out a couple different places that we can put the trees uh cuz there are other planting in the back here as well as places that we can add uh some more shrubs and trees together um so I put a summary together here with a little bit more of a colorful map given the details that we talked about in summary the one I not big but the one change uh which Sarah just mentioned is the recommendation to remove a Norway maple that is pretty far into Decay and within the 50 Foot buffer zone so I'll start with that and then work my way backwards on the plantings so this is the picture of the tree uh which was right here if you can see at the bottom here within the 50 Foot Zone and as you can see in the picture here this is probably about 12 feet up uh the middle of the tree is very exposed and clearly rotting uh the risk is that this could fall into some of the new plantings that we have designed on the we'll call it the bottom part of the map um and might pose a risk to taking out what we're putting in question so far so with that in mind uh we added well we added more trees anyways but we added more trees on this side of the plantings to make up for the Norway that's being removed uh in summary this would now include Seven Trees uh excuse me 14 trees and seven shrubs uh which is an addition from before we also discussed adding a an informal rock wall there's already a loose one there right around the 50 Foot kind of grass line um and so we talked about putting in a more formal wall that would hold the no mo line um and protect that a little bit more as well as allocating about 500 square feet to be a truly naturalized area it's a lot of uh dirt overgrowth uh lots of kind of stick piles uh we talked about making that more uh with the shrubs also a no moow area um so adding that into the plant add some more Greenery and room for the bunnies and then adding uh the the additional trees up here two additional apple trees further up into the property um to yes add more trees add more pollinating add more leaves and get some more growth Amy anything I missed uh then you got the the three-year monitoring period oh yes so the other ads from our last conversation was adding the commitment to the threeyear survivability and replacement as needed as well as a commitment to removing invasive species there's some creepy vines that are going up some of the trees uh Amy and Tim pointed out some best practices for what to be removed and cleaned up uh which would be a great opportunity as I'm going through with all the plantings and that's it Commissioners have any questions I think this sounds great um just the one question I have the the naturalized therea the 35 by 30 this is all going to be done after the septic area I don't think I need to see it overlaying I'm just kind of curious on where those kind of where where's the informal rock wall line compared to the Limit work for the septic oh it's pretty far away um Jack do you mind sharing your screen so the rock wall is basically it Bridges the current kind of grass line and the 50 Foot line which I think is on Jack's screen share Jack do you have that handy yep coming up the uh yeah so the right in here pretty far up and where the grading would end is short of that 50 foot line anyway so that's already there um and really wouldn't be yeah doesn't overlap I guess yeah same thing with the 35 by 30 foot area down at the bottom of the screen here yeah that looks like right yeah right so that's it's basically maintaining what's already there cleaning it up and committing to not mowing it do we need to just touch base on the parameters of the waiver or we all set with that is that a question for me yeah well the the the waiver was mostly was entirely to do with the enforcement order so it's it's it's the mitigation that that required the waiver basically okay got it the section that you said was being committed to not be mowed down the road if you were to sell would it be pretty obvious not to mow I think so uh right now it's pretty shaded uh and it's pretty far down there I mean it's there's this picture doesn't show it but there's already some trees there I we're proposing putting in some trees to really make that a more formal growth area uh with the shrubs so I think it would be pretty obvious with the shrubs that really can't be moded um but uh some people yeah I I if I have no intention to uh to move or cell for what it's worth I'm not living there now and I'm looking forward to moving so it's going to be a long time before somebody else gets their turn but um I assume when that uh property passes hands that all these documents go in a a packet of this is what was done so uh yes to answer your question yes it'd be pretty obvious uh it's going to be landscaped that way all right that was all I was wondering yeah okay great um um if we are all satisi satisfied would someone like to make a motion to close this and issue order of conditions what was the D number I knew gonna ask that and I wrote it down somewhere but it's a thous I might have it let's see 204 one12 ni one12 so I'll make a motion we close the public hearing and issue an order of conditions for 161 ton road DP number 20410 one two with a bylaw waiver waiver sorry with a bylaw waiver second all right roll call vote uh Ed Ed F Kyle Kyle Max Michael I go livings tonight Sarah Sarah Steward I myself I it's unanimous all right much the only other question for the Commissioners is um I assume you want to leave the enforcement order open and so some of the monitoring has happened or you could close out the enforcement order whatever you want to do I don't see a harm of leaving it open honestly I assumed once everything was planted I'd be showing up again to uh confirm everything got done so I don't think it's gonna all get in this fall so I uh obviously I'll chat with Amy about the specifics but yeah I would assume Springtime uh we'll have that done okay great best of luck with the planting thank you very much appreciate it all um so Andrew so now we're going to go ahead and open the 805 which is a continued um public hearing and I am going to recuse myself so I'm gonna see if I can move myself over absolutely can't do myself apparently oh oh no no that's weird I can move I I can't do it to you that doesn't make sense because I should be able to block you if you start creating problems that's strange yeah I mean at a minimum Sarah maybe you could just turn off your video and mute yourself and all right so I'm gonna hold on one second oh I know how to do this you do I think uh change role to attendee there you go all right so we'll go ahead and open up the continued uh public hearing abbreviated notice of resource area delineation for 550 Newtown Road uh Mass EP file number 204 uh to be determined approval of wetland resource area delineation is there anybody here to speak to this application tonight um yes good evening for the record Greg hawkmoth uh from Epsilon Associates here presenting the applicant for the uh anrad file for 550 New Town Road good evening Greg good evening um this this is our second public hearing uh we we continue the last public hearing to allow time for site visit which which we had and just about the entire commission uh came and uh we had a very difficult walk through the woods uh but we were able to review the the resource area boundaries and if if I could share my screen I can bring everybody up to speed on what's transpired since the last hearing so uh can everybody see their plan there yes all right so the green line is uh the border and vit Wetland boundary that we're asking the commission to to approve and uh that is essentially the line that we walked during the site visit uh you may recall that there were some abutters at the last hearing uh that were discussing an empowerment behind their property and how when they purchased the property they were told that it wasn't a jurisdictional well there was no buffer zone on their property and and I was adamant that it was a jurisdictional resource area I showed the commission during the site visit um it was very thick uh that's the area that you see with this little little purple finger here um that's where the Wetland line was on the prior plan what we've learned since the site visit uh thanks to Amy and her uh her staff uh is that actually in 2003 there was a notice of intent filing for this exact property 550 New Town Road and what prompted the filing was they were before the planning board and the planning board asked them to do some drainage improvements and the plan that went along with this uh notice of intent application um was this plan here and I'll give you a moment just to get your bearings but this building that you see is the building on top of the hill that we parked behind on the site visit and you can see this Ridge was built along the slope and they constructed an infiltration Basin in the area that the ABS were describing impoundment and this was done in 2003 so post 1996 after the storm water management standards so then the question became uh even though this hasn't been maintained since I think around 2013 because we found an asilt plan so for about 10 years it hasn't been maintained is it a jurisdictional resource area or not or not because in accordance with the regulations a storm water management area that was constructed in accordance with the storm waterer management standards it's not a jurisdictional resource area and it doesn't have a buffer zone uh um but I don't think it's as black and white with this property and I'll explain why lack of maintenance for one and it wasn't quite built per plan uh the spillway that separates this infiltration Basin from the adjacent BBW um it's a little low in my opinion so we reached out to D and we described the situation to them and it was kind of an odd request because you know a wetland line further from my client's property would benefit them uh but a wetland line closer to the ab Butter's property would not benefit them and that's exactly what the abuts were concerned with at the last meeting so I explained the D you know this is kind of a gray area we just want to get it right uh we're going back to the commission what is your take on this and I pointed out some of the flaws with the install uh I showed them the notice of intent the approved plan and asil so it had they had all the materials and D said that they would not deem this infiltration Basin a jurisdictional wetland resource area so the abutters were correct um we've since revised the plan to add two Wetland Flags I'm just going to go back to that revised plan we've eliminated the section in purple and we added two Wetland flags on the back side of the burm I guess it would be on the Wetland side of that BM that separates the Basin from the BBW that we walked um the surveyor added those flags the plan put a revision date on and as a result the buffer zones and everything were revised as well so the revised plan does not include this this purple line I only added the purple line so the commission could see roughly where the infiltration Basin was uh but what we also did was we uh included that we discussed at the last meeting about two uh intermittent streams that would impact um I'll call it the the buildable portions of the property most of this property is is wet uh but the Upland areas where the building are there were two streams that had the potential to cast a 200 foot Riverfront area on the property we explained at the last meeting why they didn't meet the definition of a perennial stream per the regulations uh and the commission simply asked us to include I stream stats information and a paragraph uh explaining what we discussed at the last meeting which we did so we've now get a revised plan that uh gets the Wetland boundary correct and we've submitted the information that uh proves that the two intermittent streams are in fact intermittent and don't meet the definition of uh perennial late this afternoon we received a DP file number um so I I believe we have everything needed uh for the commission to close and hopefully issue an oad for this portion of the property perfect thank you Greg do any Commissioners want to share uh what they observed on the S sidewalk or any other questions or comments on the inrad I'm curious on the map I I I I know the answer to my question but where that purple line is why you didn't just make the wetlands be the purple line which is a little bit higher up to for more protection well that's where I had it but you lowered it which which um wouldn't have made more sense to keep it at the higher level well that that that was what I described the question that we had for D sure and you may recall that the lewises the abuts were adamant that the Depression was not a jurisdictional wetland resource area and I I told them they were wrong um but after talking to DP they were right uh based on de's interpretation of the regulations and what was uh built I was shocked to see a notice of intent application in 2003 with an infiltration based in design that complied with the storm water management standards I you know when you walk behind that house today it's difficult to see the ground and I think 10 years ago it probably looked a lot different and that's what I'm sure the lewises were remembering when they looked into their backyard and saw an infiltration Basin all right thanks yeah see you made a good point there Greg where it was great to see that this was designed following the appropriate regulations and whatnot but if you're telling me now that it's not meeting those regulations and this probably is nothing to do with what we're talking about tonight but something tells me that there is a lot of work that needs to be done at that site I side of this enrad to get it back into what they had submitted yeah so so really good point and that was a question that I know Amy and I had chatted a little bit about and I actually mentioned to D I said look at some point uh somebody should really get a hold of that infiltration Basin clean it up in accordance with the approved operation and maintenance plan and start maintaining it as it's supposed to be maintained so that it does function and I had a call last week with uh my client who's out of Florida and we had about an hour Zoom call to lay all this out and explain it and show them the plans and go through the omm they're fully prepared to do whatever needs to be done to get that infiltration Basin up and running again and then we talked about the best mechanism to make that happen it certainly wouldn't be the anrad um but in my opinion there's there's two options um if a notice of intent is filed for additional work on this property I think that would be the perfect time for the commission to insist and ask for that infiltration Basin to be maintained and brought back up to standards um and if for some reason something happens out here that's outside the commission's jurisdiction I think the commission would be within their rights to issue a friendly enforcement order which would allow the maintenance of this infiltration Basin uh with a little oversight that would give the commission the opportunity to require erosion controls a preconstruction meeting you know everything that you'd see with a typical project in your jurisdiction just so you don't see somebody going down here with a small track excavator and making a mess um to me I think those are probably the best two options um yeah that makes sense and I appreciate you having that conversation so that you know if it's you or whoever is in blindsided when they present a project in front of us and we come back with that you know immediately because that's as Butters have mentioned it's clearly has not been functioning the way that it should have been for the past 10 years yep knowing that it's not functioning why wouldn't it just be repaired now why would it wait for any other action to occur but I think in order to work that close to the bvw I think the commission would um they'd need some sort of a mechanism to allow that maintenance you know but you do bring up a good point there's an on and so I think technically somebody would have the right to keep up with that omm but where this has been about 10 plus years there's small trees growing in that's exactly where I was going right like omm is omm but I think we're well beyond performing onm at this point it's basically going to be rebuilding it's exactly and the the access will be interesting exactly right which I'm sure was fine 10 12 15 years ago if they would have kept up with the onm this wouldn't have been an issue but things that are going to fall out of this is that be like setting dominoes going no because so I don't know when the building was constructed but the building's pretty old and that's been uh a commercial/industrial building for a long long time and I think the planning board simply said look I don't even know what they were doing or why they would before the planning board but the planning board said hey can you do something because they were just catch basins two catch basins that were just shooting out into the hill and all that untreated storm water was going down the hill so I read through the notice of intent and I think the engineer did a really good job they they created a burm instead of a Swale and the burm does two things it captures some of the uh discharge from those catch basins but it also captures the sheet flow coming off that parking lot puts it up against the burm and funnels it down into that infiltration Basin um so it's better than what was there uh but certainly not what would have been built by today's storm water management standards if this was raw land and they were building a brand new building um so yeah I do think you need some oversight and whether it's an enforcement order or part of an noi that comes in uh I do think they'll be able to get down there with something small hopefully they just have to scrape the top a little bit um and then once it's evident and visible and up and running again it would be part of whatever the m is moving forward for the entire property I'm not sure I understand the qu the answer are we saying that it can be I I personally think it should be repaired now but are we saying that it cannot be done now uh and I'm not concerned about other trees growing it and that and all that if it's not been maintained and because of that maybe it even needs to be rebuilt that's not our problem that's the problem of the folks that didn't maintain it right so a couple things I'd like to say to that if it's okay um so uh my clients didn't own the property um until fairly recently so I think that it hasn't been maintained for a long long time they didn't even know it was there they do now and they're fully prepared to maintain it but I think I don't think the maintenance of that infiltration Basin should hold up the issuance of an oad I think the Wetland line is the Wetland line and what happens after the oat is issued is up to the commission and the commission could say well geez we want this done right away and if that's the case then I think an enforcement order is probably the route to go and not wait to see what happens out here and to see if they file a notice of intent enforcement orders can be friendly in this case I think it's a good start and if the commission meets any resistance or you don't like what's happening you can ratify that enforcement order to require whatever you want at that point and that could be a separate filing and um thank you that that's that's where I was headed with my thinking is that um it's one of those I didn't own the property now I know the problem exists I do own the property it's my problem if you will um you know no different than any of that if some bad thing was found on our property it's now our problem so I don't know how um Andrew and Amy I don't know how this should proceed from that perspective but um yeah in terms of issuing an oad um how do the Commissioners feel about that kind of um uh holding up the O do we want to issue that and then perhaps follow up with an enforcement order um a friendly enforcement order to kind of get things back on the right track or is this something that the applicant can pursue uh through maybe some other means a little further down the road I I will also throw out that it's a possibility if they do redevelop a site that that Basin might get abandoned in which case you don't want them mucking around down there yeah that was exactly what I was going to say but to Ed's point we we don't know when that's going to happen right so exactly maybe maybe that's enough to light a candle under the the owner to push forward with whatever they might have planned to or they come in front of us and say hey within eight months we're going to be in front of you with with this with a potential with our project with our plan right so I think that might be a better way to go you we have that conversation with the owner and say hey this is what we're looking at we got to come to some sort of agreement here um you know here are the options right we you maintain it now or if you're saying you're going to come and come and do some additional workout there with a new plan within a year or so then we are comfortable holding off I'm not I I don't know I I probably shouldn't have brought out this isn't I feel bad um because we're here for the oad I have no issues with the oad that is what it is now I we walk that line I'm fine with that um I don't think an EO is quite necessary as long as we keep the conversation open if we have that conversation and then it comes to light that you know it could be years before they're going to do work out of this project then then I'm comfortable issuing that perfect thank you are there any other questions or comments from the Commissioners uh before we open things up to the public I will also say the um DP file number did come in and their main comment was that uh this this oad would probably be only be approving the boarding vegetated Wetland line um and not the riverfront area and um I can't remember Greg you had the blf line in there didn't you yeah yeah the blsf lines on the plan and it's um it's just a Zone a so it's the graphic depiction from uh from FEMA Maps uh but the surveyor put that on the plan and stamped the plan so that's that's in inside the Wetland line is that correct yeah it's inside the Wetland line by probably almost 250 ft yeah so so I would recommend if the the commission does um approve it that there's maybe a finding um that those two intermittent streams are not perennial but they haven't actually been mapped so we don't know where the banks are and all that stuff so all right are there any other uh comments or questions before we open things up to to the audience all right hearing none um if anybody in the panel or any attendees would like to ask a question or make a comment if you could please raise your hand in the uh in that option okay I am seeing no hands I'll give it one more second just in case all right so uh there's no uh comments or questions from the audience how would the Commissioners like to move forward tonight would somebody like to make a motion to approve the oad with uh the two findings for The Perennial streams sure what was the DP number Amy one 4-20 or 1013 1013 all right I'll make a motion we close a public hearing and issue issue the oad number 550 New Town Road mass number 204 I already forgot it 1020 what did you say sorry 204 1013 1013 sorry 1013 uh with the findings that the perenial streams located um sorry the yeah they're not considered perennial streams on the site so the oad would not um include bank or Riverfront area or land underwater so it' just be a finding right as am said all right do we have a second a second all right perfect we'll do a real call vote uh Kyle Kyle mat I Michael Michael Livingston I Ed Ed fals I and myself I and Sarah is abstaining or refus um so with with regard to the Basin would you like me just put some into my calendar that in six months we check in if nothing's been filed and start talking about whether or not you want to enforce an order I didn't say we do it sooner than that I say we reach out and say you here's here's what the board's thinking um we yeah I I agree I but so if they come back and say yeah within within six months we're gonna present you with a filing that's a different story but if okay they have no no immediate plans then I mean I assume there is some sort of plan going on if they're pushing forward this oad but I don't think they'll be surprised to see uh something from the commission and I think they'll they'll be very open and honest with what their intention is and they'll tell you well gez yeah we're going to stay out of the bucker Zone and if that's the answer I think it needs to be fixed right away yeah yeah because that's the danger right if they decide to do work that stays out of any sort of resource area buffer zones so we we lose them we see so in fact when we were talking U they said geez we weren't aware of that I wonder if um we can somehow you know subtract a certain percentage of whatever they were calculating up on the hill now that they know that some of that storm water is already going somewhere so I think the wheels were already turning gotcha Perfect all right thank you Greg and uh we'll look forward to meeting with your clients uh hopefully soon and uh getting that taken care of thank you very much everyone this one was a little confusing yeah have a good night thank you all right so we'll bring Sarah back over and I'm having a trouble promoting Matt no there no Matt Matt you should at least be able to talk if you want to unmute yourself oh there you go or did you leave no I'm here okay good okay hey Matt hey guys um so first of all I just want to let you guys know I did go out and I delineated the Wetland on site and it it definitely does appear that the alteration was within 50 feet it did not fill Wetlands but it did come as close as like 25 feet um in the new section of Phil there was older sections of Phil that apparently could I ask just a a procedural question um Sarah and all the others you all you had announced uh you know the the what was being done you know the continued discussion blah blah whatever is is that a quote unquote requirement is that just how you've been doing it and the reason I'm asking is because someone coming into the video might not realize that Matt was talking to the 15 Powers Road yeah Ed typically we uh announced it sorry that kind of went by us here um sorry guys did you want um I'm back so I'm happy to go ahead um that's kind of a weird transition when you go from one all of a sudden you're like in never Neverland and then all of a sudden you're here so let's go ahead um back up just a second it's 8:54 we're going to open the 810 discussion enforcement order 15 Powers Road which per uh is discussing unpermitted grading and fill in the buffer zone and then Matt if you can introduce yourself formally that would be great okay hi Matt Maro Maro environmental Consulting I am a professional watland scientist and an environmental consultant I'm here representing the property owner of 15 Powers Road um again my apologies for pulling the trigger on my Spiel too soon so essentially what happened was on October 11th which I believe was a Friday I went out um with a trainee in my company um and I did a delineation on site um tied up the flags basically heading around the backyard flat area where the Wetland was um what I found was that there was no filling of wetland um what I did find was that there was work as close as 20 5 fet maybe just a little less like 24.8 um in the new section of Phil it looks like there was older sections a fil that predated his purchasing of the house which I'm show you guys spotted while you were out there it's got some very old vegetative growth um that's part of the backyard goes within about 17 feet to the Wetland at the closest point um I am talking to the property owner about getting survey work done I have to talk to Kirk from civil um there is some cleanup work taking place on site there was material that he was storing on site little trucks some containers he's removing those off site um as we speak that should be completed like fairly soon um I lost a little time last week working on this because I was in a car accident so I was kind of thrown around my car a little bit so I was down with some bumps and bruises last week you're actually just started getting back into the swing of things yesterday well we're glad you're okay and we're glad glad to have you back thank you um that's basically where I am at the moment um I can confirm that there was no Wetland that was Disturbed I can confirm that the fill was within 50 feet and I'm also going to be working on a restorative action plan um my question to you is do you want the restoration plan filed as an noi do you want to do it under enforcement I'll do it either way you want wouldn't it be filed Sarah as part of the enfor order we already have the enforcement order going right yeah I I would I'd rather stay on that on that path but Amy I defer to your knowledge on that I I would say it depends what the restoration is going to be if it's basically taking out all the driveway or whatever fill that was in the 100 foot buffer zone and do it under the enforcement order if they want to you know get permission to leave some of the driveway in or whatever then that should be a nose fent okay that's kind of confirms what I thought thank you so Matt as so we're trying to keep this on track we meet again on November 12 and we set some pretty I think low bar hurdles um that the applicant had to attain where are we going to be come the 12th well my goal is for the 12th to have a at least the draft restoration plan for discussion um draft set of prints showing the restoration so something on an actual plan so I have um some conference calls set up with my client Kirk um to see what we can do because Kirk drew the last PL so he has the data and I'm trying to minimize my client's expenses as much as possible there is probably gonna have to be additional toppal shot in the meantime right can you walk us through what has actually been removed and as of the 12th are we going to have good faith effort that all those things are going to be removed by then so my client um has like a sideline of work where he purchases and sells like container pods um he had those on site he's removed those there were some old Vehicles one of them has been removed um any vehicle that's not registered and and not part of his personal use of the property in other words anything unregistered is going to be removed from the property um and any other DET tritis by by the time of the next meeting will definitely be removed if not soon um I can keep Amy up to date on that progress in between meetings if you so want me to I don't have a problem doing that at all I think it's it's helpful to bring in images to be able to share with the commission like the before and afters from different angles sure okay I can do that are we addressing any of the erosion concerns I know it's desperately dry and we haven't had rain but we were out there on site and we could see the scour marks um coming down the driveway exiting to the right down the steep steep bank or if we happen to get I'm just afraid that we're it's so dry that if we do get rain it's just going to just go right on by and not infiltrate okay I'm just making a note here I have I I haven't had done anything about that yet like I said I kind of got sideswiped out of yeah just if you could take a peek at it that that would be great and I know exactly what you're talking about so I'll have that done by the end of the week okay and it may just be adding some um erosion control up top okay and it also I assume might be worth Tim and or I walking the site with Matt sometime just before the 12th yep that'd be great Commissioners anybody have any questions for Matt just you're feeling better thank you appreciate that sorry keep you waiting so long thank you have a good evening no no worries thank you guys okay um it's now 9:00 we're going to uh open the 8:15 discussion 1 151 Taylor ground water sampling results Mast 20496 and 204 d917 hello um I'm flora and I also have John Pacman with me here uh we're both from GZA and I will share my screen just to show the site H Co before we do that it's John Pacman here uh are there any specific questions or concerns that you have that you would like us to talk about tonight any Trends trends that you've seen would be great okay very good okay so very briefly this is the site 151 to 153 Taylor Street um due to the proximity of the warehouse and parking lots uh two Wetlands um we put in four monitoring Wells for groundwater monitoring Wells there's cheesy one here cheesy 2 gz3 and gz4 and as you can see from the blue contour lines um groundwater generally flows down gradient this way and then it's generally pretty flat around here again because it's mostly Wetland but uh the regional groundwater flow goes kind of northward along Beaver Brook in this area so the the deing service provider for the tenant did Implement a salt reduction plan with their deicing program last year and based on the data that they provided to us they used about 44% less sodium chloride so we did see that in the monitoring data for the past couple quarters where generally it has decreased um but there are still some concentrations above the monitoring criteria that were set and just as a brief reminder um data the criteria are basically based on an initial Baseline monitoring round that we conducted in 2021 and so the yellow highlighting indicates concentrations that are above 25% increase above the corresponding Baseline so we just um our last round was done in September so we're comparing against September 2021 so it is more than 25% above that this is for chezy one that monitoring well right near the large parking lot um bold values indicate uh value that's above 15% greater than the prior season so the prior corresponding season would be September 2023 in this case um so those are the values for GZ1 gz2 is kind of on the other side of the very large parking lot um for this one we are seeing more noticeable reductions in sodium chloride concentrations um gz3 is off the driveway kind of to the southeast of the warehouse building um and then gz4 we weren't able to collect a sample this past quarter um that one is the upgradient well located off Monarch Drive and why um because the water table was below the Bott the well we're seeing very low low groundwater levels because of drought conditions yeah y great can you please go back to the view that shows the locations of the wells please sure so here we have GZ1 this is gz2 gz3 is down here off the corner of the driveway and gz4 is uphill next to Monarch Drive yeah gz4 is actually installed up on Monarch Drive yeah can you go back to well one please and can you reference that to where your salt shed is ah yes okay so actually let's point out the salt shed uh salt shed is right about here and where's GZ1 right there and what's been the increase percentage wise since the installation of the well to now [Music] testing so initial Baseline values were around 10 it's currently um 100 200 yeah you are you are correct for pointing that out what we've seen is with the reduction in the salt usage what what happened was the contractor switched from using bulk largely bulk I'm sorry I should move into the camera I guess largely bulk uh salt product sodium chloride um they at at our request they they changed it from using uh to to using a brine so what they're doing is they're spraying on a salt brine prior to uh snow events icing events and that what that does is that it pre-treat the roads and allows them to use less salt on a net level and and I don't if you showed it already but the you know the net effect is where they're Ed they use about 40% actually more than 40% less salt last season than than they had prior so that's a good thing and and by and large it's worked out well you look at the numbers for three of the four Wells and you know the the concentrations have generally dropped and things look look better uh but you are right number one is being uh persistent and continues to be high it is the one that's furthest downgraded and closest to the salt shed you're right so a couple points of interest um I have always disliked having that shed there and we did not have a lot of snow this winter I mean maybe they did at Amazon I didn't have it across town so we didn't really have to use that much yeah and still we're in the fall months and you have leeching from your sheds and you still have storage of open packed containers in your parking lot so I would requestly talk to the Commissioners that this shed either has to be totally disbanded or moved or put somewhere else but I believe that there's a direct correlation with what's going on here CU that shed was never there and now it's there you still have open storage of your salt products as well well the has a roof to it but I understand what you're saying and when was the last time you were out sir oh I I get photos from the folks that go out there yeah so did they show you where you can see where there's staining of where it's leaving concrete it's concrete blocks it's not as though it's in a whether we're talking per is impervious you're leeching and it's literally leaving from there and going right out I I can't argue with that I I I I I'm not trying to argue I'm trying to find a solution yeah yeah yeah we have discussed this with the property owner and they have also talked with the tenant yeah Tim's on the line so want to CH I think that the Commissioners we at a point where at what point we've got a 200% increase what when do we stop 500 800 and what happens if this is a snow event year for the cont you bring Tim into the conversation here I don't know if he's still muted or not Tim Irvin is on the call so meanwhile have the commissioner's weigh in with any questions that they might have observations yeah Sarah I think you're you're right um it honestly I don't even care it's the salt shed or just looking at a snapshot of this data you we can clearly see that there's something going on at GZ1 right which also happens to be the closest well to Beaver Brook so yeah I think we're again if it's a salt shed easy fix or should be an easy fix regardless of what it is this looking at the these tables the data they've been providing it's warrants investigation in some sort of remediation fixing why we've seen such a large drastic Spike um so I I'm fully on board with having the tenant or the building owner here try to rectify when was the last time we had Amy the last time that do we we get these numbers I'm assuming every time there's monitoring quarterly yeah and the and the water department gets them as well yes and it's been how long since they've all come in to have this meeting um been yearly yeah I think it's been about yearly gz folks yeah okay because we had requested I think it was a threeyear monitoring cycle and now I'm getting nervous that we're probably about to say that this is the end of our monitoring but I think we're more at the start of our monitoring again here this is well and I think that's something you have to bring up because it's under our jurisdiction that you can really work with this and say it's going to continue or there has to be some action plan I'm really shocked by these numbers I had one other question if you can bring the picture of up of the building again or slide up to whatever I didn't see any monitoring Wells on the bottom if you will where it says former property boundary down in that direction and and um I was just surprised that we've got wells in many other places but there's a whole huge section there that's not being monitored it's not their property is that what it is I don't the former property boundary there that I see yeah no I don't mean all the way down there I was just using that as a visual that you know there is like a v-shaped boundary I believe we gave that land to you guys to the town I'm sorry we we basically gave that land to the town right yeah I think I think these Wells were done in tandem with the water department the locations I was just curious why we weren't monitoring that side of the it could be that the water department is is monitoring but this this particular project is under our jurisdiction sure further down in the picture from gz3 is their detention Bas and and it's all we made left that to stay as much tree cover as possible yeah but that's way over well I wasn't around when this was all developed so I shouldn't probably be asking no feel feel free yep it just seemed to me that the V or the point of that black line I it kind of looks a little like a V that um you know we'd want to know right there thank you that you know we want to know what's going on that area hdic side gradient if not up gradient of site uh as for pointed out groundwater flow is to the north Northeast fls towards Beaver Brook and then it takes a turn to the to the top of the paper uh towards the culit of of the Beaver Burke that goes under the road there under under route two so it it actually it actually turns um and so that area is actually hydraulically upgradient and I think that's what the the commission thought of when they specified those Well locations at the beginning of the project so the locations are are strategically placed to be downgrading hydraulically downgradient of the majority of a site all right thank you explain is there any data that is available from the new Well site that's the project that below where approximate location of storage shed is across the street right across the street from Drive no no it's uh off the end of the parking lot isn't it yes mean the the new well that the that the water department is exploring yes yeah that's right yeah I thought I thought the figure I had showed it on the other side of the street off the parking lot okay it's near that V right it's kind of right above where that for maybe that's a different than the one I'm thinking of okay I just wonder if there's any data the water department has I think we've passed from that in the past do you remember we have asked them that Michael um yeah we asked them for their data recently because they you know we've been collaborating with them to you know for them to use our wells for as monitoring points for their Explorations and they sent for a a set of you know specific pages of of their report they didn't send us all of it and that's something that I think you followed up with for you know we we would like to see the entire report so we can see those pages in context because right now it's hard to understand exactly what they did and and what those pages indicate so that's something would be interesting to look at yeah I mean what they sent was pumping test data which doesn't tell us what's in the yeah that's that's they' done it's not the complete so let's clarify so the commission will do a formal request of data on that as in the butter to to get that and we'll share that with you and you'll share that with us thank thank you y so going forward how are we going to rectify this problem well if if you don't mind I'll I'll do my best to speak to that um so Amazon does hold the snow removal contract directly with their vendors we are the owner of the property we do not have we do not hold the contract that being said Amazon has tried to be a good partner with us we've we've conveyed you know our to report these samples and these readings to the town uh we've tried to curb um Amazon last year by using the brine solution that John alluded to incurred increased costs uh that's a more expensive application than just salting um so um we'll continue to work with them I think just so everybody's aware I was just notified that Amazon is changing the snow removal contractor which was Bright View uh to a new contractor this year this is something that Amazon does on a national accounts type of basis I have not been informed who's going to be the snow removal provider for the upcoming snow season I've asked for that information as soon as as it's uh made available so I think you know with once we get in touch with the new snow removal vendor we can ask them to to move the location of the salt shed we can certainly ask that a you know I think one opt is no salt shed on the site that they that they haul in whatever whatever you know salt is needed for deicing and Stow removal during events I I can't promise that they're going to agree to that it's it's more costly it's not as you know from from a time management perspective you know it's nice to have your material on site uh for these events but we can certainly request that um beyond that I I think you know John some of the numbers are coming down going in the right direction at this point from from previous quarters previous season so we're hoping to try to continue that kind of momentum in the right direction um but I I I do agree that we can explore and encourage Amazon to either not have ass salt shed on site or move it to a different location I think those are some obvious things and some potentially uh helpful kind of measures that we can take to try to improve Pro these results um beyond that I think it's just trying to trying to use best practices for the snow snow removal obviously we need to keep a safe secure site for the employees here but also be C cognizant of you know these test results in these readings how was moving the shed somewhere else on the this lot I presume going to be any different than where it is now well add to your point maybe moving it could potentially show increased results at another Well site as opposed to I'll give you that I I think maybe in moving it we would try to uh improve the containment of the shed as well I mean if you guys go to any any site salt sheds are not permanent structures that are completely weatherproof I've never seen one like that they they they need to drive their loaders into these to pull the salt out of it this is a pretty typical but also higher end type of salt containment area or structure that you'll see but agreed that it does leech out it's not completely impervious to to the weather so um we we can ask you know for for the mo here and I think we will um what what we end up agreeing to or what what the final solution here is still somewhat to be determined considering I don't even know who's going to be the actual vendor on site for the upcoming Seas season yet so I I guess that doesn't give us the warm fuzzies about the fact that this is October and you don't know who's going to be plowing maybe in November um I would propose to the commission that we increase monitoring to monthly at this point until we have these questions rectified I'd agree with that what do you mean by monitoring to pull data on those Wells to see if they are as they say going down or if they're going to go up and I recognize that we're um that we're in a drought right now I mean I I certainly understand your objectives um I think that that you know we may see continued you know Trends as we as we mentioned for the three of the four Wells um I'm not sure we're going to see that with with number one uh because that we we know we haven't really seen we we've seen pretty steady concentration that's as you saw and mentioned uh I'm not sure what the added resolution of monthly sampling does for us on a on a technical and and protective basis be honest with you yeah Trends you be the groundwater in that area is so flat and stagnant it you're not going to it's not a long enough time to see a change can we go can we go back to the original data for let's use one as an example please every three month I might also I might also note here guys that you know Amazon didn't even occupy this this site until Q4 of 20122 so the first two readings here and really even the third potentially you know being a the end of December I I I don't have historical weather data for 2021 this wasn't even a site that was being used when kind of the Baseline readings were were taken and I I think that I think that needs to be considered considering this is a site that now is being used so you said Q4 yeah their occupancy was really August of 2021 um so you know 65 9113 there was no salting no s you know applications that had been done on these on this lot prior to that and those numbers are pretty low well of course they are yeah yeah but well but you're making the case though the numbers after they moved in have been progressively higher for the most part anyway and some are very high 198 202 169 well I think you're looking you're looking at after the winter the June for 13 3 and 23 was a mild winter yeah can I ask a question is this concentration going to be a function of whether you know it's we're in a drought or have lower than normal rainfall I mean I'm trying to understand how going from April to June the number goes up so dramatically and holds St and we've definitely been low on rain lately but is that partly an explanation or or am I just making stuff up no no you're not you're right on the money there uh I mean there are variables uh one variable is the amount of su that's applied um that is a source term the other variable is as you pointed out the amount of of of water uh that is available to spread this uh and that's precipitation so so and and that and and then with all that in the winter months the added variable is that you know if it's more if it's colder and there's more icing and more snow then more salt is needed so this it's it's very complicated and that is a lot of variables um so you're right and and and the the r the reality is yeah as Tim pointed out the first numbers were very low because there was no no activity at the site and and we all know that if you apply salt to a to a a pavement you're going to end up with salt runoff it occurs next to every Road in the country in the in in in in in you know cold weather climates um so that's what we're seeing so then it's a matter of can we control that which is what what they're trying to do with the use of the brine is and is working um you know is it gonna is it going to change it overnight I don't know I don't think so but we've only gone through one winter so far with the Bri um and I'm not I'm not arguing one way or the other I just the only thing I do want to say is that I don't know that that added resolution of monthly monitoring is going to do much in terms of giving insight to the problem um Kyle is dead on as as you'd expect in that in that area of the site we're closest to the wetlands which means that the hydraulic gradient in that area is is almost flat that's why we can't even Contour that floor if you can quick bring up that that figure again you'll see you will see and actually show the whole thing with the Contours on the other side yeah there you go you'll see that we carry Contours on the parcel that's to the right of the screen because we have enough of a hydraulic Gra they actually Contour it when you get to the concentration or the the groundwater elevations I should say on the parcel that's to the left you see they're almost the same number they're so close that we can't even Contour them yeah okay and it's because that gradient is almost flat because it's all Wetland there so there isn't a lot of gradient ground water flows from high elevation to low elevation you know water flows downhill so because of that the the groundwater secret velocity is very low so you're not going to see a lot of flushing or groundwater movement in the course of a month so I don't know what you're going to see in that higher resolution other than maybe the the transient impacts of a of an occasional rainstorm that results in some you know books you know in in in in in concentrations because you have a sudden influx of of clean water you know fresh precipitation water so if we can just go back to the brining of so in 24 you did the brining if you look at the stats again so the brining should have brought the monitoring numbers down in 20 in the spring of 24 from the spring of 23 correct but forwell one it helps out but remember there's a there's a a contaminant load already in the ground round so it's not going to flush out overnight well it wasn't overnight it was a year oh yeah but ground water flows very slowly so it a relative com [Music] yeah so we're talking relative very relative to right we have Baseline numbers can can you refresh my memory on what you know what these numbers actually mean what kind of thresholds are we approach in any sort of like a drinking water standard or a reportable limit or anything like that or are we so far below those limits that it's not really a concern we're just it's becoming a concern to our eyes because we're seeing such a drastic increase ex yeah the the the uh regulatory standards and and these standards are primarily secondary standards um and and so they're they're at the top there you can see the standard state for chide is 250 so you know we're really not even we were already if you can scroll down we were already in the 200s well we 202 yeah right so you're in essence getting relatively closer I I don't argue that yeah that's that's true so that's why we we we you know we we went to the grinding we're hoping that that continues to improve uh but it's only been one year so you're attributing the higher 202 even even though you had mitigation methods of brining that it was still a flush fluke and so it's still going to potentially rise how long are we flushing a year two years uh I haven't done those transport calculations but yeah something on that order so all I say to the Commissioners and the applicant is that this says um it's not in my expertise by any means but this causes concern and I want to make sure that we're doing everything whether we need to have someone else come in as a third party to look at this critically or or unbiasedly sure sure I think that Tim's suggestion is is a good one and that we work with the tenant to explore options for uh either removing the salt shed because you're right that that serves as a chronic Source uh and and it's either removing it or better managing it so that they don't have a an excess of salt um throughout we meet again we meet again on November 12th um I would like for you to come in and hopefully have um some type of I don't know what you want to call it let us know what your contract is going to do or at least have some type of um method going forward um so with your permission I'd like to have you come in for November 12th that gives you three weeks if the commission would like yeah I think there's two things there I think yes that and for the salt shed portion of it and but are we going to request that the tenant or the applicant in this case is continues that corly monitoring for up up to you all so obviously as as I said this is not my level of expertise so I was just trying to see if that was going to be helpful yeah I no I just I we we want them to continue monitoring I guess right for sure we need oh for sure that's I mean they have to do that so because I think are we at the end here Amy of where we no we still have two years to go arguing that we sto mon friend I don't think that no no no no I just want to make sure you did continue I thought that this was the end of it right here I thought this was our last no not at all no we understand where we're at the only thing I want to comment on the the the uh November 12 meeting and and I know this probably doesn't impact you but I can't be there for the November 12th meeting I have another commitment for another public meeting uh in the state so I would request if at all possible because I would like to be there uh that we that we do that at the following meeting so that I can participate so Commissioners that's up to you so you're at November 26th I guess my question is if it snows between now and 26 what is the plan if they have a new contractor that doesn't want to do that doesn't want do bring we're looking at two different things here where no offense to you John but I think this is this sounds like it's more of a Tim Tim issue right where Tim should be coming back and letting us know where they stand where the tenant stands with our contractor yeah um I'd be happy to again we don't hold the contract um pardon me right but you have those you you're having those conversations or you have can get that information we we work directly with Amazon to encourage them as best we can and they've been a good partner like I said you know willing to take on additional costs to try to to show Improvement here I I I sense that those uh that willingness will continue whether that means you know moving the salt shed to a different location or or eliminating it all together uh we'll have those we'll have those discussions with their vendor once I learn who it is Laura we will make a request for the Litton water department to give us some um data on on the wells as well that we will share with you yeah if they could share the entire pumping test report that they generated or their contractor generated that would be great I I think what we're in we'll talk to Amy and I will talk and see what the requests will be okay we have to carry on one thing you mentioned the new contractor might not do the brining well it's up to them right like we we've requested that they use best management practices but but isn't it up to us if the if the salt level is too high to tell them they have to do something to resolve it I don't think we can tell them means and methods we can tell them the our concerns and what we're seeing and what we want to see changed in those results but we can't tell them how to get there no that fair point okay but once you get to for instance in that category once you're at 250 then you're at alarm so we don't we don't want to get there all right thank you we will see someone on November 12 thank you thanks Sean thanks L thank you y take care thanks time um okay we're now going to do the 820 which is 933 continued discussion forcement order 0 IP switch u5- 16-0 um I know it's later than anticipated are they still here Mark remote to panelist Mr Gallagher I see that you're on do you want to chat or fell asleep Mark are you on all maybe not no I don't think so I just I promoted him and he's got talking permitted oh there is why are you not going over you may have stepped away also yes yeah well doesn't he have to accept being promoted no I have to click accept to be promoted to the it it keep it keeps saying it failed that's because you click not accept um all right while we're waiting let's go back to continue uh administrative discussions um enforcement order 31 unpermitted construction of a walkway within the buffer zone and work in rear yard yep they um they are done it took them I know two or three days next week or last week um uh who was it was Earthworks who did the work and I think they did a great job so everything's planted seated stabilized um including the um the little infiltration areas for the down spouts and uh ready to go through the winner okay good I'm glad they were able to get that done and hopefully that seed will take soon as well okay yeah um parcel review good week for it I I think we can um just kick that down the line okay that was pretty much Madan draw down uh just let you know what's happening oh okay the lake must be low with this drought yeah they struggle to draw down anyway right what are you able to get it down no it's definitely dropping okay good luck with that okay um budget goals and priorities that's the land use document Amy uh yes so um what I would ask at this point because I can't get into work is um if you all could take a look at it and let us know let me know if you have any uh things that you think should be in the budget um or more particularly any goals and priorities um and then a meeting with Ed and Kyle on the 30th at six o'clock if anybody else wants to join by all means the only thing I didn't see in that and I'll email this to you as well it doesn't make any mention of if we got any grants for anything in 2024 wouldn't it wouldn't be uh in the past you mean yes slated for 25 or yeah they they if they're grants they wouldn't show up in the budget okay um so there's there's line items for the um Frank money's control at Cloverdale and there's a line item for the Ada Trail at Cloverdale okay um I don't think we had any other discussions it coup quick questions sorry Sarah Amy where are we meeting for that are we meeting at town hall or is it over Zoom what do you um it be easyier if we do it in person if that works for you guys that's fine just at your office yeah coming in yeah and then Sarah I was gonna ask him if they we had I brought up a issue on tahan at our last meeting and think Tim said he tried to swing by but nobody was there has anybody gone back out yeah I I've done the same and I sent Stan a um an email I have I haven't heard back in frankly I didn't follow up so I'll do that tomorrow were you able to see the work that take took place or what had changed yeah you can see it around the corner I know there there had been a looking at the aial is a Patty or something there I'm not sure how big it was and how big the existing one the one that's there now is okay but yeah clearly work was done yeah um is everyone going to town meeting they should be there y there to support you sir yeah so historically in the past when we have things that are put forth by our commission we all kind of sit together so that way if there are questions so usually like lower right so is a request um one thing so Amy and I went through the slide deck and there has been and I apologize I just wanted to bring this up real quick that um we're not never mind I'll we'll talk about it later um I lost my train of thought anybody have anything else Sarah should we potentially post for town meeting just in case we have to make any decisions on the floor or do you think we're good with uh what we have it might be easy enough to post if you want doesn't mean you have to do anything with it it's just a good backup just in case we have to make any decisions on the uh the floor yep I agree so what that means is just prior to the start that we'll all gather and we open a meeting and close the meeting or do we actually no we or conversely you wait until you know if you need it when article 10 comes up we can keep it just rolling through town meeting right yeah it'll cover us either way but then we have to remember to close it and that's assuming we have four of us there to right don't leave without closing it right yes so do so is there anyone that's not going okay I just want to make sure we're having this discussion for a reason if it was only us then it doesn't make sense yeah I I would I would feel better if we posted it yeah yep so I'll do it at when's town meeting start I don't even know seven all right so I'll post it for maybe 6:30 how about how about 6:4 yeah okay and then we'll just meet down down front front to the right if that's okay with everybody sure all right it's and let me know if you want me there yes you come late laugh at me we can't work without you Amy I'm waiting to see if this will go on the consent agenda haha all right do we have a motion to adjourn it is 9:42 we've given up on Mark completely sorry already he disappeared yeah he's gone okay second all right last roll call Ed Ed F Kyle Kyle Maxi Michael Michael Livingston I Sarah Sarah word I myself I we're adjourned see you next Tuesday bye night everybody