##VIDEO ID:OTJTElbOrL8## e e e e e e e then I don't apolog we are on the air okay I'd like to call to order the meeting of the Long Hill Township planning board for September 10th 2024 Madam Secretary would you do the honor and read the announcements absolutely number one call to order and statement of compliance adequate notice of this meeting hearing has been provided by posting a copy of the public meeting and hearing dates on the municipal bulletin board and website by sending a copy to the echo Sentinel newspaper and by filing a copy with the municipal clerk number two standard board procedures any meeting or hearing conducted by the board is a quasi judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and to Quorum appropriate to a Judicial meeting or hearing must be maintained at all times number three meeting cut off announcement is made that as a matter of procedure it is the intention of the planning board not to continue any matter past 10:30 p.m. at any regular or special meeting or hearing of the board unless a motion is passed by the members then present to extend the meeting or hearing to a later specified cutoff time number four electronic devices all in attendance are asked to mute cell phones or any electronic devices as to not interrupt the proceedings number five Pledge of Allegiance to the the United States of America and to the repu for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all and now if our board attorney Mr SOI will please swear in our uh reappoint and our new appointees okay so I guess we'll do uh Mr Mitchell first okay you want to do them both at the same time uh I suppose we could yeah than okay for clarification you guys have copies of the the Oaths in front of you yes no I do not oh you you have them I I gave them to you first all right I was going to say it' be easier for they could follow along but uh just for clarification for the record we have uh new member William Mitchell as class one expiring December 31st 2024 and Scott lavender as a reappoint has moved to class three uh with the term expiring 12312 24 thank you when we get to that point in the oath just remember what your office is and then just so so all right you guys are ready I'm G have to ask you to repeat after me I state your name I Scott lavender do solemnly swear do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States I will support the Constitution of the United States and the state of New Jersey on the state of New Jersey that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to the governments established in the United States and to the governments established in the United States and in this state and in this state under the authority of the people under the authority of the people and that I will faithfully impartially and justly and that I will faithfully impartially and justly perform all the duties perform all the duties of State your office of planning a board class planing board class three here okay according to the best of my ability according to the best of my ability and that I will not use my office to Grant preferential treatment and that I will not use my office to Grant preferential treatment nor to seek personal gain or order to seek personal gain favor or Advantage favor or Advantage not available to the public not available to the public so help me God so help me God there you go okay welcome aboard well done welcome back welcome guys thank you course all right so we'll uh I just have to have you guys fill out these forms at the uh at the end of the meeting but you've essentially taken your office so welcome AB board as I said and now I can do the roll call great all right Mr Mitchell yes and Deputy Mayor lavender present Miss Dill is excused this evening Mr Hans here Mr melan Ali here Mr opela here Mr Sandow is excused this evening Vice chairman Jones present and chairman Richardson here we have a quum Mr chair great thank you very much okay our first order of business uh is item nine uh you'll see on the agenda we do have meeting minutes they're not quite ready and we'll address those in the next meeting so we'll go on to item nine and this is an application extension request for Block 12702 lot 45 162 Basking Ridge Road application number 23-9 [Music] P um I guess uh is there would you like to te off Mr yes please summarize what where we are with this application so with this one uh we we received a letter from the attorney for this this was uh Fred zeli um representing Robert and Evena n hope I'm pronouncing that correctly uh they received minor subdivision approval from the board back in uh I'm sorry pull the date from you uh oh they received it back on October 24th 2023 the letter we received from their attorney on on July 15th they requested an extension of the uh 190 day filing period That's the time you have between approval and uh you have 190 days to record your final deed or plat before your subdivision expires right um the board is empowered via the mlul to Grant extensions basically it seems to me in perpetuity um for so long as the applicants are being held up by trying to get outside approval so in this case they're being held up by the Morris County planning board they stated that they're having some kind of some kind of issue with negotiating with them as to what that is I couldn't tell you specifically but um I would just also note in the in the letter they requested a quote extension of 60 days from the date of the resolution which to me it made no sense because you had 190 days anyway from the resolution so I spoke with uh with Fred zeli this morning about this whole topic and he requested that the extension be granted to uh November 9th of this year um I also s sent Deb a resolution I put together earlier today I don't know if she was able to circulate that or not in time but um I do have that so um I mean theoretically Mr chairman the board could vote on the extension this evening and then just memorialize the resolution at the next meeting if T review yet okay well first are there any questions with regards to the extension request from the board only question I have is there are there any changes in that resolution that we need to call out um I didn't they didn't State there any it's only a date change or a time change it's just a it's not even a change it's just it's just an extension of time to to to file the subdivision de if they don't do it within 190 days which would have been which already passed which was May 22nd and you are able to to seek these postao so even after it expires on paper you could still seek an extension after the fact um was I going with this yeah they would have had until May 22nd you know just by right to record the D otherwise they're going to the approval would have expired so essentially if you don't Grant the extension their approval is completely expired they could always refile an application if you want to let them do that but you know so we're actually grandfathering back to May 22nd essentially and then it's going to expire November correct is that the DAT I heard correct it's a 171 day extension that's what I calculated do you think that's I know they asked for that date but do you think that's short I mean well they they were supposed to have this done in May and we got this letter from Fred back in July um again I wasn't it wasn't clear to me what that 60-day window he was requesting but like 45 days over right sent that right exactly so as of today it would be 60 days to November 9th actually and uh would they be permitted to seek another extension if they've not resolved this issue with correct yes yeah as was kind of touching on previously you can seek these extensions in perpetuity for so long as they're being held up by something outside of their control from an outside agency and they're diligently pursuing that approval right right so if they just like sit on their hands they don't do anything for a year that's not diligently pursuing it in which case you would have no you know they' have no grounds for an extension so in that vein do we typically seek documentation of the issue you mentioned that you don't know what the issue is that's holding them up um is that something that we should be seeking more information about um in order to continue to extend as a matter of as a matter of practice I've seen it go both ways where a lot of boards are very law a fair and somebody just requests an extension okay no just more procedural question to quote the letter he said I'm quoting this due to Extended extended negotiations with the Morris County planning board the 190 day deadline as set forth by an njsa etc etc for the recording of the subdivision D is laps so they're citing extended negotiations I'm assum I I neglected to bring a copy of the original resolution with me this evening but I I I would assume that they were opening some kind of Road front there was some kind of issue with the county road I'm assuming and trying to sort out some details maybe with grading or running of utilities something to that effect gotcha MH any other questions so yeah do you grant the extension as long as the Mars County planning board doesn't make any amendments that's adverse to the original like so when you grant the extension is it just typically you're granting the 60 days or is it subject to no material changes from the third party well what what the extension resolution that which you guys will see next month the there's a condition in here here that says that this extension is subject to all the same conditions as the original approval so if they wanted to amend it to a you know in a what's the term in a material way let's say they somehow wanted to do three lots instead of two lots I know that's an extreme example they would obviously have to come back and you know reaffirm the approvals and well not reaffirm but get all new approvals or just the configuration of the Lots like so what if they say it's still two lots but it's two lots are now different sizes right because of the way the road that they want the access points to is that considered material I guess it depend probably yeah more than likely yeah I mean if it's like an inch or to something right I just mean like you know they they don't want the two next to each other so now all of a sudden they're Shifting the lines by right right and I would trying to get around a variance where might like trying to squeeze within the setbacks and more than likely when they submitted the application they showed on the plans where the right of way line would be if it doesn't already exist so okay that's yeah cover but at least I indicated the mo County Planning Bo they IND who was holding them up so we least and it's a not public body so I feel a little bit more comfortable that whatever they say that yeah this is a very I we see this happen quite often with any most outside comfortable as long as it's no material change like moving a lot line to change to to accommodate a setback or something no they they would have to come back to the board if there was a material change application this is purely just for the that 190 day filing period pushing that out if I could summarize to make a motion to accept this extension request condition upon review I guess of the resolution that will be available in advance of the next meeting how how how I I want motion to Grant the extension to uh November 9th 2024 and then with the understanding that a resolution would be memorialized of the next meeting with no material changes well can't we I mean do we do we need to wait until the next meeting to Memorial the resolution or can't we do it now if everybody wants to if I can pass it on the line everyone yeah I don't remember if we passed it out in August or not but does it I didn't have it done with that oh okay so it's very standard language for an extension correct does it hurt them if we don't do it now in terms of as long as you grant it as long as you grant it I don't think it does but exactly well again you they can apply so it's yeah t but it's a very short y i me wanted to detract from anything else we have going on this evening but I if you want to get started down at that end move work it down come back and vote on it at the end of the meeting um I feel like that's terribly inefficient I mean I I would just throw a suggest I'm I'm comfortable if the rest of the board's comfortable to Grant the motion to extend to November 9th and we move on and accept the language that sounds pretty standard yeah it was just the recording of a deed and going to the planning board sounded like the planning board could change things than just procedural the County Board rather than just a procedural motion to file something straight forward right okay so we have that motion is there a second second so we're let's carry it to September 24th I think it's a motion to Grant the extension but then carry the adoption of the resolution to next meeting Grant the extension but carry the okay yeah so I'm sorry who made the motion Don y chairman second second by deputy mayor Deputy Mayor okay okay so this is the this is the extension request granting so chairman Richardson uh yes Deputy Mayor la lavender yes Mr Mitchell yes Mr Hans yes Mr melanowski yes Mr alala yes Vice chairman Jones yes motion carries very good great thank you of course okay uh next item is uh ordinance review and I'll turn it over to face cheer Jones Thank you thank you Mr chairman uh nothing to report just kidding um so the first uh we have uh three um land use elements uh that we've ordinances that we've reviewed uh both uh Miss D and Mr Hand uh first of all I just want to say thanks for the work that they've put in uh we've met a couple times be a U video uh to to work on this and we've had very efficient uh meetings uh and we'll also give an update on some other things that we're working on that will be coming before this board and also uh Deputy Mayor you'll get a a little bit of a head uh highlight of what's coming uh and also want to thank the the board for their review and comments uh from the last uh series of meetings that we've had to discuss this so the first thing up is land use 1541 ordinance to amend fence height just to uh refresh everyone this is changing the height of the fence I uh to six feet which is now uh along the lines of the code construction um and that was the only change to that uh to that ordinance so uh I guess I'll go to the group here um any comments any feedback any other anything else you want to um discuss with regards to uh fences and I'll go to my notes just to see if there was anything that was left over like like with any of these ordinance changes the big concern I have is any ripple effect to other ordinances did someone do a check to see if that's pretty clean uh great great question uh Mr chairman and uh yes uh we do go looking at other ordinances to and that's tracked in my spreadsheet to find out if there's an impact are we 100% um I'd like to say yes in this in this instance I'm going to say yes uh but when we get into other ordinances that are more complicated that do have trickle down effects then and yeah we're going to miss some but we are trying to go through and diligently list those out and I've shared some examples with you uh uh attorney um with how I try to go about that right so uh hopefully that format that I sent you is is very helpful very easy to follow when when putting this together EXC John so efficiency that's what we're trying to achieve I appreciate that so um good I'm sorry there yeah Tom uh Tom could you just clarify section D5 on page to where fences are a budding paper Street what's the reasoning for that and could we be getting ourselves in trouble B5 yep on page two um it's basically D5 yeah D5 Delta 5 all right fences located in the front yard areas is that the same for paper streets basically it's fences along paper streets right so this was existing yeah this is existing language so that's not something I Chang is it still required though I mean in the review shouldn't paper Street height maximum and what's the overall concern I'm not sure what it's saying they're saying you can have a fence over six feet in your front yard if it abuts against the paper Street if the township engineer says we're not going to do anything with the paper Street essentially I think that's what do well what happens in five years if they decide they're going to do something with the paper Street and you have a six foot fence up then I gets grandfathered and it stays is this something that we could get rid of the whole thing and not have to worry about it and just keep it at 4 foot fence in your front yard whether it's along the paper Street or not I mean it probably has affects very few people right I mean I can't so if you get rid of the five then you have no guidance on a paper Street it would be just the same as if it were regular I mean still treat it like a corner lot treat like and that means it's a 4ot fence then that's the max so a a lot that a butts of paper straight then it would become two front yards M so that would minimize where the property owner could put a fence you know what I mean like okay so we treat as treat it yeah like on it's ultimately treated like a corner lot with two front yards I find that more palatable myself I don't know about others yeah I think so okay how about anybody else anybody else want to weigh in on that suggestion what is it what is it now so it's well the paper Street now says or the the ordinance currently says that you well I guess with our change it would go to a six foot potential fence along a paper Street the frontage of that particular lot along a paper Street could have a six foot fence with the changes that we're proposing from going from four to six and what is it today four four four and just reflecting back to the TC meeting about Valley Road and and Division and the line of sight issue if you have a a paper street that becomes a real street and there's a six foot fence there you have a line of sight issue and then we're just going to potenti that's theoretical though because I think we've looked at all the paper streets and we haven't determined any that we're going to do anything with they're all in flooded areas or back lots and stuff like that so it's kind of like a theoretical that doesn't exist as far as I can tell I I know there's a paper Street behind uh my house there's a a lot that had it's a Flag Staff lot um one lot on the road and then a Flag Staff behind so you need a pay for Street to get to that second lot unless they combine the lot and make one lot I don't think that would happen so there there are going to be some streets however few um there are some streets that will present that there are some in my neighborhood also maybe it is in best interest to remove move that SEC uh number five five mhm I I don't know why it matters for whatever my opinion is worth I think that makes a lot of sense I me to get rid of five it could have been at one point this was very power now it's it's kind of outdated right that's what it seems okay any other it seems kind of subjective too with the engineer getting involved and there seems to be too much subjectivity could be a headache for someone else later down line and no plans to convert yeah any other comments retaining walls um for does anybody know if there's a requirement if a retaining wall has to be designed by an engineer if it's over a certain height what is the height on that three or four it says four I think it's four I'd have to confer with Joe F this is e you're referring to I'm 99.9% sure that it's 4T and that's that's in the UCC the unit okay now is that because some retaining well I know we just put one up and it went close to four where it was just a dip in the existing ground is this requirement for the whole length of it or if it goes over four feet for a foot it can be a small portion of it so if you have a retaining wall that starts at maybe 18 in and then goes up to 4 ft you have to engineer that portion if there are retaining walls I think it's total of six feet and then there's like you know steps in between them there's a minimum distance between this is All Uniform right right well that's if you have walls but it's I'm 99.9% sure it's 4 foot in height that has to have an engine at any portion of that wall any portion of that wall so even if the last step was 4 feet the whole wall would have to be engineered it's you can't have it over four I think that they look at mostly just that section but yeah I mean you would think I I'm not an engineer obviously but I would my expectation would be that if you're going to engineer one part of the wall you're going to engineer the the whole wall right normally that's normally yeah because you have to get to that point anyway so you got to you know do the background engineering just to get right to that part yeah we're not changing that part we are Chang only the height of a fence and then I guess another question is what happens when a wall has like a lighted column you see a lot of walls maybe three foot high with a twoot column and a light on top of it so does that count as a 5ft wall is it a 3ft wall with columns for high post or post light post like even on the there's one example on Mount is it morrist Town you're going out this way and as you come around the right there's those posts on that one corner lot as you kind of swing around it and they they're over four feet but the posts aren't supporting any those are they are they're orate for sure electrical yeah we have nothing in the ordinance that specifies that you know they can't have I think the standard for those for building there is a standard in UCC and I think it's 2 by two maximum something like that for a column for column column is a part of the wall though I mean if the wall starts to lean The Columns are going to lean off so they're not independent right I'd have to check with the construction to see the height is I know that they have to get an electrical permit especially if they're putting Lighting in it right oh really that because it basically requires that you're digging up portions of you know the property to connect electrical mhm um so just going back to sorry sorry uh so just to address that right we're talking about a six foot fence um and they will have 6ot posts to Anchor the fence piece right going to be the six foot post we're not changing wall Heights we're not changing retaining walls not doing any of that okay um and the light fixture we weren't addressing that but if that is something that we want to revisit I'm happy to take notes I'm happy to go back and then work on those elements of it we're not addressing those we're just addressing the fence height for the uh to stay with the construction code and the retaining wall Heights we're not doing anything with the retaining no right right right we're keeping it yes it is that's correct should it say something in there that if it's over a certain height it should be designed by an engineer what fence for that's in code in code yeah that's in UC yeah it's already covered by that I mean you could reference something you know you know confirm with you know the construction department or something to that effect but I wouldn't put the specifics again are you addressing the fence or you addressing retaining walls retaining walls okay so I'm happy to take the retaining wall p back and away and work on that and I can always play back the suggestions from the video to see what we need to do with that and then come back and find the retaining wall piece but I am anxious to get the fence piece over the line to get that going um so I'm just going to bring the conversation back so anything you want me to address on the retaining wall please send me an email I will be happy to go in and take a look at that and then we can go with the orc group and we will then talk about that aspect of this ordinance so I just have quick question or clarification does this pertain to residential and Commercial Properties or just Residential Properties for the retaining walls or all the fence does the fence refer to is it just res just residential okay because any any commercial property that wants to put a v up has to come for a site plan that's a minor site plan application on a commercial property so basically on a commercial property you as the board and a minor site plan application would be deciding if they want a 4ot a 6ot 8ot all right yeah can we um I want to go back to the six foot fence so the intent of that is for sidey yards privacy between neighbors right side and rear yeah side and rear so in the case of the paper streets generally these paper streets divide Neighbors right they can't be vacated at the point in which they would be vacated and a six- foot fence would be okay along correct and so I'm back to that and I think we should air on the side of treating them like side yards up until the point that they're something's done with them and the chances that anything's going to be done with any of these paper roads is next to zero right having gone through them with Dennis pretty extensively we did a review of the paper streets and wanted to see if we could just vacate all of them there's just so many Corner cases that um it's just not going to happen but but essentially right now paper streets are sidey yards between neighbors and so I understand the arguments for making a four feet and treating them like Frontage but I would argue the other way that they should be treated like sidey yards well then the question would be what happen who takes over ownership of the property once the streets are vacated when the streets are vacated it's split evenly between the two residents so then theoretically then you would have a six foot fence in your front yard side and you could actually move it to whatever the RightWay 25 ft you would gain 25 ft in property mhm so you might want to wait to put up the fence in I think there's instances in town where people are looking for the Privacy now yeah good point so anyway I'll lay that out there so just to play it back for paper streets the side where the paper street is you want to treat that as side Lot as opposed to a COR lot in those instances where those instances exist in in the instance where there there's a clear front lot along the street and then there's this side paper Street which generally is going nowhere or down to the river right uh treat them for what they are essentially right now they're side Lots side Lots okay would you want me to kind of rethink D and and come back again yeah okay so keep in five I can I can make it and I don't Chris you could tell me I mean what if we put language in for paper streets that if somebody comes to you know to want an eight six foot fence along a paper Street side should we get should I as the zoning officer reach out to the township committee and confirm that that particular paper Street has no you know isn't being vac or used or anything I mean you know where I'm going with that do we get permission or do is the zoning officer get permission from the TC to say yes we're okay with them putting it at six foot fence on that entire line instead of treating it like a corner lot but it sounds like the analysis has already been done all right Scott I mean yeah yeah I can think of one instance in particular where there's a paper Street which is really just an access road uh for the water company Norwood M Norwood yeah Norwood down there and actually that gentleman on Norwood he just I gave him permission for um a six foot fence along that entire line recently right right okay there you go that's a good example on the south side of his property yes okay on the paper Street side right yes yes yes yes so so why don't we just leave it as is then I is is that a paper Street or an access e well we just paper street I'm okay whatever does what's what's written here does that help you in that examp paper street but it's used because it defines what paper Street separate everything for zoning purposes uh properties that above paper Street are considered Corner Lots yeah but because this is written in here that does help the property owner if they want to put so they don't have to put a 4 foot fence yeah I just with for what this is my fence is that okay so much just go ahead go ahead so in the uh fourth whereas where it says ensuring the requirements the ordinance consisting current on the ground condition nor minimize the cost of C presid associated with minor single family home renovations so if it's residential we also permit multif family in residential zones right so if it's a two family home like a duplex I think that just that wording there it should just be take out minor single family home and just say Township residents associated with renovation right because that way family wait let me let me speak to that so that's when you're passing any kind of luse ordinance any ordinance for the most part they're held to the arbitrary compre or un reasonable standard so there has to be a basis for you passing this ordinance right so the fourth whereas Clause is an attempt to say hey we have a legitimate planning purpose behind this ordinance Y and I'm quoting directly from the master plan in that in that little section there it doesn't say you know that's exactly what it says minor single family home renovations so I'm trying to tie this ordinance to totally I'm just saying I think that sometimes just taking out those phrases makes it a little bit easier when people pick it up later on right because if somebody looks at it and goes oh they well they're just trying to reduce the cost for single family right things right like obviously it doesn't affect any of the actual land use ordinance it's just kind of making it more clear that the bo is think from that way so it's just word smithing more than anything well the thing is I'm I'm borrowing the language from the master plan if the master plan the master plan says specifically that they're you know it's intended to minimize the cost of the township residents associated with minor single family home renovations so if I change it up then I'm not it's not master okay that's fine yeah yeah it fine just the last comments yeah just very quickly so just just so it's clear because we on that same section requirements of UCC so are we confident then the this language I pull it directly from the UCC this B is anguage though as why I make sure so when it goes to the toship committee they can follow along without double right that that actually leads me to a question uh for the board actually so if you look at that language it says you know construction permit should be required for fences six feet or more in height and two fences of any height surrounding public or private swimming pools conforming with the height limits the same y y y so the UCC specifically States you know public and private swimming pools um is that something you want to include in this revision or because I I believe sing cool fences are otherwise regulated by another portion of the ordinance so I don't you know it's kind of up to you you want it might be somewhat redundant to include it in here but at the same time you're really mirroring the language of the uccc so it's you know I guess reasonable why it's could differ but I ultimately it's not going to I it's going to cause any problems to keep it in but well we I didn't mind it because we refer to it in three D3 about swimming pool so it just ties it back for me keep it okay I thought it was all right yeah just want just want to yeah you're going to keep that's going to we're going to keep that yeah okay so we're back to just the six foot right right as as written as so so there's no changes I think we need to make I don't think there's any changes okay all right so we're good there was a lot of markups but then I crossed out the mark yeah so what's the next step on the fence ordinance then so do we need to make a motion and vote we'll make a motion and I think we can do it by all in favor yeah you can do it yeah we do a motion a second and all in favor to have the board secretary forward the this ordinance to the township committee for their consideration okay thank you could said it better myself good J can I get a motion motion so moved second second all in favor make it happen ni all right first one sending up to 200 to guy all right yeah only 200 to go yeah um all right how do you eat how do you eat an elephant right one piece at a time one peanut at a time all right so the next one up is uh lu1 1554 permitted signs if you uh recall there was the U application that came before us about uh having a signage a home office uh signage uh and it was a two foot x two foot equals a 4 SQ foot sign that could be posted uh outside the the residence uh after uh much uh conversation we finally settled on 1 foot by two foot sign and that was the adjustment I know we kicked around 8 in by 16 and then uh the chairman brought in a showand tell Q card one one by two and everybody settled in on that so I think it's easier to just go one foot by two foot that's the only change to this portion of the ordinance um did you want to just uh just do two square feet instead of give a dimension two square feet that's I think better somebody might adjust it in by whatever is a maximum of 2 square ft I agree I thought that's where we were cuz you don't know how the you might want to do that sign you may want to do the 18 in by 6 in something you don't want every sign to be a square you can't go past 24 in and you can't go past 12 in high or 24 in wide right okay well that would be another way to write it then can't exceed 1 foot in height can't Exceed 2 feet in length there you go there's your that's a short version of 12 in and 24 in exactly yeah you just can't go beyond yeah one by two you have to put Jones or malinowski you have need different dimensions so I can't have a I can't have I can't have a 3in Sign by that's right right by six feet do I have to put in no bezel right that's fine then I'm fine because it follows on from the same sort of math as before yeah so so that's the only change one by two um we not putting a bezel in and so forth y any other comments specifically prohibited lit signs talk about up lighting or lit I don't recall seeing we that's in another that's in another SE yeah that's I think that I think there's no lighting for I don't remember reading anything about lighting in I'm not see anything not in this I'll take I'll take that action way as to specific signs do you have concern about light expence um prohibited we sign but for commercial I mean you can't really that's for a commercial property yeah right so in that zone so I would suggest and and a lot you know I think that a lot of people in a residential Zone especially if if they are allowed to have a residential business you know they could use you know an up uplit Garden sign that they put around their own you know garden light I've seen backlit um Glass Doctor signs right I mean I right I've I've seen mostly just ground signs very similar to landscape lighting that's allowed for an UPL that's it oh from going up just projected up and I I do think you should include that verbage in with this ordinance so you think so in you have very specific you know thoughts about about what's allowed included for sure so not illuminated inherently not the sign illuminated Maybe One uplet Landscaping okay I'll take that away so we will not pass this ordinance today I will I will review uh the code see what is said about lights and lighted signs in residential zones if that's even addressed if it's not addressed then we will come back with a an amendment I I think I mean I I'd have to go look at the ordinance we was trying to pull up real quick the fact I mean this is 155.5 is permitted sign so everything in here is permitted therefore if it's not in this list presumably it's not permitted so so that would be the Assumption that's the Assumption without having reviewed anything yet but I'm trying to pull it up it's the old double negative yeah trying to save you some extra work Tom I can appreciate that but if if if if if you think de this is something that should be I do I think it should be direct absolutely directed and the only reason I say that because if it's not listed then we consider consider it strictly prohibited but if somebody were to do it like a landscaping like you know like they do their Landscaping lighting I don't know that so what's the view from everyone here go ahead go I got some U the next section uh 155.5 prohibited sence U any sign not specifically permitted by this ordinance is prohibited following signs and design enhancement features are unlawful and specifically prohibited a is marquee signs see that kind of touches on electronic um I what a snipe sign is never heard of that one before um abandoned signs um I'm just going to list them off uh vehicular signs mechanical movement signs including revolving signs electronic Message Board signs pen and strings inflatable devices signs and streamers and animated signs I think that kind of covers a lot of that signs that prevent free Ingress or egress from any door window or fire escape uh signs which emit smoke visible Vapors particulate particulate matter sound odor or contain open flame um all furnaces signs portable signs sequential signs roof signs billboard signs temporary signs except those permitted by section 3-12 signs erected without the permission of the property owner with the exception of those authorized or required by local state or federal government and any sign containing information which states or implies that a property may be used for any purpose not permitted under the provisions of the lill township Z so uh the action I hear is that Tom Jones is going to be going away to the um uh ordinance Review Committee the orc and uh we will be amending 155.5 to discourage related signs right if that's not already subsuming in there that's good I will I will take that as an action not a problem so uh with regards to ordinance 1554 any other comments so can I put a flag of my business up as long as it's not greater than 24 Square ft if you get per if you get permission to have flag EMS are all Flags emblems are of nation state more than one flag should be permitted for each under that no such display exceeds 24 sare ft in area so if I put a flag of my business up instead of putting this sign up based on the way that it's worded looks like it well have a second a business because you you're pointing out the business aspect mity School business the business part the business so let's say IX two sign I want to put a 4x6 flag up can I do that based on the way that this is wored so so just to throw a wrinkle in has anyone driven down um PL field over here by shoppr what road is that M that heads out of town towards Wong waren anybody see the signs that are hanging from the trees yeah yeah yeah but not in our town by the way no but is is do you think business subtlety here home office versus business and that's I don't know the difference that's what I'm asking I don't know if if let's say the home office sign is now shrunk to 1 by two that I can say that it's a business and it says permitted in all zones so that should supersede the fact that it's a home office if I'm what take yeah what what takes PRI what that's what I'm trying to just understand is what's the the waterfall of business business could be interpreted I think it's very good to clarify have any definitions yeah I think it's a very good because if yeah business if people start equating home office to a business then it's going to be a lot of places well but here's here's what I would say on the caveat what's the definition of when somebody based on our code if you are running your business from your home y you have to come to the board get to have a home business correct once you do that then you're subject to the regulations under the of having a home business which then leads you to that part of the sign ordinance where it says you can only have so it automatically excludes you from having a flag go one by two I think we have to be sure here that there I would actually the way that I interpred that I flip right is that I might say that I have a business I'm not putting a sign up because the sign is too small too small right so I think that the way around it is after business putting a bracket and saying you know excluding home office or something along those lines where I had a suggestion at off to find last sentence of uh 1554 B it says these regulations shall not apply to flags of the United States of America instead of the period comma or to permitted home office uses right you're completely so so that that would be the clarification that takes out the fact that they can put a 4x6 flag up so you'll send me the revision yes sir move forward with the motion with that revision yeah yeah yeah just simple six words what is J could you explain J Vending Machine signs in residential areas Beed in Mach sign you know beverage displays or or the fact that you want to get a towel or you want to get you know or an air freshener or something yeah air freshener all those sort of signs on the front side of of the the car wash ATM is over ATM machine is over here yeah like that's kind of how isn't this residential area no it's nonr it's non-residential so yeah it says the following signs are per all non non the ordinance is about residential home offices right no just that particular uh subsection G applies the home office correct it calls it out so I'd like to make a motion to approve the change for Lu 15554 four permitted signs the change uh to G uh is now one foot uh by two foot one foot height by two foot length sign as well as the amended six words to um section B 1554 wait did you want to review lighting with this one no no I'm going to look at that one for 155.5 okay in the next one got when you said the six words can you read the six words out loud from yeah sure absolutely um so I'll just read it the whole sentence uh subsection B on the bottom of the page bottom of the first page uh last sentence there these regulations shall not apply to flags of the United States of America or to permitted home office uses that's the suggested language or to permitted home office uses fine sounds good thank you and then is the word because you use the word maximum 1 by two is that word in there because I don't want exceed we use a different use a different thesaurus we'll have fun doing these all right okay so can I have a motion motion second second all in favor hi thank you very good two in the book good out do you want me to send you copies of these first before I send a Deb send to the DC you no if you send it to just and I'll take a peek if I've got any issues I'll come right in over the top okay sounds good well I usually include like but when I send it to the TC I will include the board chair and vice chair you both be included okay okay thank you last one um so the less contentious one that we're about to uh talk about is uh uh oh Lu I have the wrong code it's 134 point on the agenda I have the wrong code yes yeah so it's l 134.4 and LU 134.5 Y correct okay so this is talks about residential sheds and it is the uh attempt was to increase from 100 to 200 square foot sheds um there was uh talk about um reviewing sheds trying to determine height um trying to determine maximum size uh taking into consideration small Lots versus larger Lots uh and setbacks there was the conversation around uh what if you have a privacy fence can you not have the shed uh closer uh to the uh to the uh privacy fence six foot fence there was also conversation around making sure that there's egress around uh a primary structure with a with a large shed on it on the property uh which was actually covered in uh an accessories um is it it's not accessory what is the accessory building is that what it's called yeah yes so it was covered in accessory building and I I'll call out those L use here in a second um there was one other item that someone had brought to my attention oh numbers of sheds on the properties uh versus small uh small lock versus large Lots what we don't want to see is someone H someone having 15 sheds in their backyard we don't want to see that but we definitely want to make sure that people can store their Lawn Equipment their uh summer um picnic stuff toys whatever uh in an appropriate Size Shed uh on the property without making it look like they have small homes back there um we did have some language uh that we put forward that only electric uh to be run to the building no Plumbing um no uh there was something else for there sewer sewer no sewer connection thank you very much live you can't you can't live in this sh from the top of my head uh is this my version my yes um so no sewer no running water uh the uh no residential shed shall be used as a residential occupancy or storage for automobiles I.E cars trucks and vans uh you'll see that in the other version if you look at the top say Tom Jones on it yeah and that's the one that I'm referencing y uh I made some other um grammatical er uh uh changes and uh Tom melki also brought to my attention um the ability to run cable for so if you have a TV there and you want to have connection to an internet because you need to go to YouTube to figure out how to fix something that you're working on in your shed yeah that's you don't want to have like a Wi-Fi push to get all the way out there you not reach it because it's all the way in the back of your uh your lot so if you can run cable out there or you can run electric out there you can run cable out there so I'm considering adding the cable piece too so we're not going I don't think we're going to agree on this today maybe we will um but the things that I need to to understand from this group is so the first item uh subsection a each property shall be limited to um one residential shed if the property contains a maximum and I need to understand what is that square footage what is that lot size um and then two residential sheds if a property contains a minimum of X number square foot on the property so I haven't found a sweet spot uh where that line is um I tried to look at zones to see if that was the way to limit because we know we have some zones that have small lots and then some zones that have Big Lots but we have some zones that have both kinds of lots so I'm trying to find that sweet spot and I'm not there yet two acres thr huh two acres that's two acres what does that okay so that means I only get one  Square 100 foot shut back to 100 feet I'm just s out there's a starting point if it yeah too low too high what do what do people think way too high too high I think quarter lot quarter acre property maybe that's a one shed and then anything exceeding a quarter acre we can have two sheds No Quarter is not a lot at least an acre at least an acre before you go I would say a half acre two sheds so half acre but what's okay what's and I'm going to be honest with y'all I don't think I so you have the residential zones and then you have like just take for instance the conservation Zone in the conservation Zone in town the minimum lot size is 3 ACR okay um three acres and you allow single family residential then you allow some farming in my opinion as the zoning officer I think that should be the only Zone that you're allowing two sheds if they want two sheds I agree I think for the rest of the residential I mean yes you do have some larger properties but on the otherwise again sheds are a big Topic in my office so I hear complaints you know oh they put I mean listen it's a shed I think that only three acres or more should be allowed to have two sheds okay B on the zone that we have in three acres or more I think they want a the other so you could have you could have a less than uh 3 acres right um but I I'm allowed to have 200 square foot shed but I don't want one shed I want two 100 foot sheds well technically you they're allowed to have as Big Shed as they want we have to decide what the setbacks are going to be for what size of shed to decide what the dimensions the height so technically and again UCC calls out that anything over 200 ft they got to get construction permits so whether that homeowner that property owner decides to build a 400 square foot shed or a 2,000 square foot uh pole barn on a property that's two acres that's their choice so there's options for them do you know what I mean MH so let's but we're trying to find the trigger point in which they would come before the board right to control this whole situation can I can I can I ask a question sorry yeah the purpose of the sheds is to store stuff you need to take care of your property MH are we allowing them to put riding tractors in these sheds yeah okay yeah so what's the size of a property where a person likely would want to have or need a riding tractor in addition to all the other tools that they use to maintain their property so my wife's going to kill me but what I'm what I'm about to say is but I'm just under an acre and I would love to have a tractor but I don't I have a 32 inch wide walk behind mower I have a tractor I have a tractor at 66 and it's I would say a half acre is just about right for riding tractor with the lock coverage requirements that we have that's and you'd be hard pressed to get a riding tractor and a weed whacker and a leaf blower and a place to store your gasoline and a place to put your paint and a place to put your tools snowblower and a snowblower and all that stuff in one shed now you could be build a big pole barn or a huge shed let people have a couple of sheds over half an acre it totally makes sense but what size sheds well that gets that's next that's I know but I think you got address that before he goes to the yeah I'm just I'm I'm just answering the so half AC might be a trigger point and now we're talking about how many sheds and what size should these sheds look like right so if you have so so if you want two sheds right say your property is over a half an acre you want to put two sheds on it I had proposed 1 1200 1300 that's it maximum or you stay with the 200 you can have two 100 sheds 100 foot sheds that's something for us to kick around so what's a 100 ched is that let's do a what's what's 100 divide by 10 by 10 10 by 10 by 10 that's a big sh that's not a big shed if you have a ridinger you're going to have 10 multiple sheds then you keep it limited to you're not going to get like a launch Factor though into anything less than 12 by 10 right so uh 12 by you mean 12 by 8 or 12 x 10 12 12 by I'm sorry 12 by8 12 by8 M mine must be 10 by8 or 12 and I have a tra to in it yeah and they have to be to have the doors top residential zoning district is a conservation zoning residential zoning District I believe so one the permitted uses are residences Farms too iess right primary use sing so it's residential zoning District defined earlier as these particular zones in the ordinances or are we just saying that anywhere people are allowed to live is a residential zoning District I that's a good question they're defined as conservation R2 R3 and R4 so they are defined and there's some R5 yes they are def they're defined specifically early on okay okay good so then not in this particular section so just be capitalized to make sure that when somebody refers yeah yeah I see you're saying yeah and there are in the end of the land use or like in part of land use there's what we call the bulk standards which I'm sure you've all seen where there's a chart that calls out in every Zone you know what the standards are the minimum lot size um you know the the maximum you know and a lot of these a lot of these properties too have what I'm sorry what generally triggers a variance especially for shed is either the setback or impervious coverage because in some of the smaller Lots even if you deciding to allow two sheds on a smaller lot anything over a half acre we still have the issue of impervious coverage they have to meet that impervious coverage in that zone and they can get around that by putting the Rocks underneath I think there's a 50 on that oh is there a m is there a calculated for that there's a calculation for decks and they get a credit but they don't get the full credit correct okay so this may be a dumb question but when you're calculating that in coverage is it all roof line or is it all drip line so it is the drip line uh I'd have to confirm with Joe because I don't speak engineering everything says everything says drip line all right just just clarification for because we're going to come to that in a minute yeah right and that's why I was just wondering exactly because you know if you have a 10t high and you've got really wide you know white it I think I think I think you're right I think it's a drip line because from zoning perspective if you have an overhang that's where I'm calculating it from right so like a little porch does the porch count towards the 8 by 12 right it covered sure it's covered but it's a drip line so it's a drip line coverage issue but I could have an 8 by 12 that goes out another four feet that I've got a little like patio sitting in it right no that that's counted so that's counted as part of the shed even if it's open air yeah that's that's good to clarify yeah that so let's go go with that so is is it the drip the drip line is the 10 by the 100 square for oh for the shed yeah is we going to use that as our gauge I don't see I not yeah I that I think we should confirm with Joe thoughts based on the current the way that's written with the because right now the the focus for a shed is based on the gravel under you know the what's underneath the shed and how far out the gravel or whatever it is so I think we should just confirm with yeah you know and I I question the 8 Ines of gravel nobody does that that's a lot and lot of gravel and you know there's is it clean gravel is it QP you know what you know it's too amorphous as to what we're doing there so we should take that up a J2 okay all right so we're on shed sizes you want to talk briefly about that yeah so it sounds sounds like the trigger point is half acre right and and that would be 21,780 square ft would be for your square footage 21,780 Square ft would be a half acre 21,000 21,780 ft one more time 21,780 square feet is a half that's my apology but have on a second hold on a second so how many shed the half acre is a is one one shed of what size over over a half acre over half acre is two sheds two sheds two sheds that's that's a lot in my opinion yeah and I I'm not I'm not sold on the two sheds sh I would rather see it done with size I mean I'd rather see one structure with bigger size and I think that's where you're heading okay in the second part but that's just my here's here's what I would say about that though the limiting factor here is going to be the setback and the lock coverage right and um I think it would it's advantageous if if folks are splitting that um storage up over a couple different areas then have it one in a bigger structure one way you could say this right to to you know kind of address what you're saying is have an aggregate area over a half acre an aggregate area is shed space that can be divided between up to two sheds I was just going to suggest it about that yeah I like that word and and you can do like 250 square feet trip line right right is there any would the board consider taking out giving a credit for sheds under coverage Al together because from my perspective and uh again I could have Joe a pine on this too but um like you said 8 inches of crush stone is virtually impossible it creates a situation where we have to go you know out and check it I personally think based on you know being in this town and the impervious coverage issues that we see I I personally think that shed should absolutely always be considered in impervious coverage and there should be no I can understand giving a credit for a deck M based on the way a deck is built and you know spacing of boards and whatnot but in my personal opinion I would rather see any credit for impervious removed from sheds altogether yeah okay mhm especially if you're doing two sheds I I disagree I think any water that falls onto the roof of a shed goes into the ground from the drip line and if you have crushed stone it's impervious it's not like you're putting in a a gutter and taking it out to the curve line or into a well or anything it's into the ground so I think they deserve a credit for that that's really for the smaller Lots where that credit would be really assful where it's going to matter you're also uh if you have a six foot fence you get to move that shed closer to the fence right but your position of the shed on your lot doesn't change the coverage no it doesn't change no it doesn't change no change coverage correct all right so you're suggesting for smaller lots to get the credit I think everybody should get the credit I everybody should what about I mean unless you have gutters on your shed and you're making you know down spouts or I collecting the water or something it that water rain water is going into the ground you get a credit if you have a rain barrel then you have to worry about mosquitoes and everything else so so back over your reasoning for it to be no credit be I mean no matter what zone we're talking about no matter what type of [Music] construction people do whether it's a small shed even a generator we've had complaints about water runoff water runoff water is the biggest as everyone knows it's the biggest issue in this town so to eliminate a neighbor's concerns I mean I highly think that that's I mean that's really my my main concern again I don't really speak engineering so I I I can't give you a logical engineering reason for it I I can only say that the majority of sheds that we see do not adhere to an 8 inch standard of gravel because that's a lot like like as some of the members have said that's it's a lot um because they have to be inspected yeah we'd have to inspect we currently do not inspect it it and because it's just not something that people do they usually put it on a concrete pad or some sort of you know pad and not a gravel pad um generators yes very similar to a generator right um but on the flip side of that too I would say to you that you know if a property is in a flood plane or a flood zone according to our map or a FEMA map right and our map is outdated because it's from 2014 as we all know FEMA has raised the thep and that FEMA has raised the flood plane from the last several years of storms I would say that you know if maybe we should put some language in also that includes if you're in a flood plane you only get one shed because anything generally in a flood plane has to be cleared by the D anyway yeah like an addition or impervious coverage um if you want to allow them to have a shed sure I mean it's not really but it's just the water issue is such a big issue that's my concern I think that would complicate things very well could you're absolutely necessary these are these are my concerns about from calls we hear on a regular basis from Neighbors and run off just just to jump forward a little bit here just on this when we talk about 200 square foot shared potential that starts to become quite a large catchment area for runoff so then do we start thinking about that has to be probably then you start talking Cutters because that could run off into your neighbor's property quite easily and you can get two of them right so talking because there's also nothing in here that says I can't connect my sh but they will come to that because they will so now I've got 400 well there is an accessory in the accessory structure language that says you have to have I think like 60 it has to be SE correct that yeah there is so there is something that says then you'd have to clarify that you're allowing two sheds do you allow three feet do you allow but to be be very careful on this we were just talking a second ago about aggregate area not 200 plus 200 right yeah right Council yes I'm sorry we were talking about if if we're doing two sheds we were talking about aggregate area between the two sheds right right right yeah like setting some limit saying between these two sheds they add up to a maximum drip 200 ft yeah yeah that that was my thought if you right but if we have one that's 200 square foot one then you got by1 shed that's 180 ft I put two of them that's 360 ft them 6 ft apart technically I can put an 8ot wide path yeah essentially connecting them right and if you're talking about the impervious coverage path is included in impervious coverage it's pav so now you're talking about you a lot of the impervious coverage which I think is coming MH full circle of so so it sounds like we only we should only allow one shed no I'm good with the aggregate personally I like that as a concept and for me this is all conversation for us to go back so these all good inputs so not this for me at least so right so I like the idea of aggregate but and a half acre I think we could get Jo to a pine on some of this too I think we need him I mean I think that's specifically I think it would be wise especially with regards to this impervious coverage issue and I agree and how and what if there could have been some logic behind the 8 in stone absolutely as the amount of storage that was coming off of the 100 squ foot shed I I don't know I don't know where the 8 in came from maybe that may be even similar to a drywall in drywell installation that's required for anything over 1,000 square ft but right now I mean somebody could put pvel down it doesn't even specify the type of stone a 3/4 in stone any stone that you put down is improv is it saying a minimum of 8 in it says it's 8 in does it say I don't know if it says minimum it just says 8 in minimum it says minimum minimum dep it doesn't really even in of crushed stone placed under the structure and two feet beyond the drip line two feet beyond the drip line right okay essentially what you're doing is creating a dryw underneath a shed F feet is the minimum between can can I ask just for an opinion from the the board about the 200 square foot we talked about half an acre okay is there some point where a 200 square foot is too big for something that's kind of the next I think that's the next SE yeah sorry much yeah okay maximum permitted shed sizes on properties that can contain a maximum and we're going to use the half acre half acre square foot residential sheds shall not exceed 100 square ft so one acre I'm sorry half acre you get 100 square foot shed on the property y properties that contain greater than a half acre uh residential sheds shall not exceed 200 square fet after that they go to construction if they want to build something mhm bigger than or whatever that's right yeah and I think 200 square ft is too much for half an acre or above if I had six of an acre to me I have I have one acre right if I put in a 200 square foot shed that's well apparent according to the current code if they're doing it 8 in deep of cross Stone it doesn't it does not but gravel would gravel and Crush Stone I don't know what the engineer would consider the difference between right but if you don't put it down then the coverage isn't is in 8 by2 then it's 12 by6 would be what your your Factor would be for right so each of those 8 by2 sheds is actually 172 sare ft for the impervious coverage calculation and every 20 by 10 is 336 ft yes so if you put two of these sheds on a Halfacre lot you're now talking about 672 sareet or roughly three and a half% of the whole lot size is now two sheds yeah what what percent was that three and a half three and a half% of your lot would be impervious coverage from your two sheds because if your shed is 10 x 20 you got to go out 2 feet Every Which Way so now you're at 14 by 24 right do the calculation and why are you saying it's impervious if you have the stone on there he's saying there is oh if there is no stone okay the stone right so if I'm I'm not putting the 8 in of gravel down now we're talking about you know 672 Square ft on a half acre lot that's a pretty decent amount of imp coverage yeah yeah the way this is drafted right now in the proposed form um you could get two sheds each of 200 squet total of 400 it's correct right so it sounds like we're going back to one shut right regardless or or wait we talked about the aggregate size what if we do you know let's say if you have half acre I'm just going to use that as the template example size you're allotted up to 300 feet of shed area and you could have two know 10 by fives yeah I I guess I mean not like anyone would have a shed of that size but you know what you know what I'm saying like you get multiple sheds but just with the square footage cap as opposed to specifying that you can only get one sh right right exactly I don't mind the AG personally cuz I could have a small one with my tools and a bigger one for my mechanical have no problem point of you're put you might want to put your tools or your pain or your gas cans in a small right so want like a little 4x6 shed to all that in and then I want a bigger shed for for everything else so as long as you don't hit over that number it's just if you go at the Halfacre number that's a pretty big percentage that I agree put the 8 in of gravel down okay that if we feel well if that even so what I can do is I is engineering sound I I don't know where the 8 in I'm just I'm doing it by the langage of that's all okay so this is the property is limited we should go to an aggregated number is that what that's what we're saying aggregated I'm wondering about in general is a principle you go with Aggregate and you can say up to two aggregate you got to put some kind of cap I guess theoretically if you give them 200 sare ft they could put 10 yeah depending on depending on the size right depending on the depends on the size of the Lo maximum two right maximum two two up to whatever the aggregate is based upon the lot SES I mean and if they try to build a bigger one that's fine then they to the original right I like that and and and because of that can you go a little bit more multiple steps than just the two steps that we say here okay could you do the half acre could you do the three4 you can do the acre can you do two acres I don't think you should do it by any Acres because there's very few areas in this town where the lots are uniform size right so if I'm at0 48 acres and my neighbor's at 0.52 he gets to put double the amount double the Size Shed what would you use then just make it a number of 300 Square ft for everybody I just can't get 300 on half if you want two shed if you want a little Rubber Maid shed to keep your gas cans in and paint I think that's a lot for small I just think it's a lot for small lot if that's all you want on your lot is a shed that's fine yeah but you might get some guy you know you get some guys a weekend guy and he wants to so everyone lots of good ideas being kicked around and we haven't we haven't solved the problem right so um uh and we're looking at it from a bunch of different areas and that's what we need to do so um um I'm going to table this one um and as the chairman said I'm going to also engage with the engineer right and also again look and Dave we should look at other towns and see how they're addressing it too uh but I didn't see anybody no I didn't see anybody go with what we're suggesting a the drip line and B aggregate I think that gives some nice that gives flexibility yeah it gives us a good place to start I think so and just clear lines to work in no I think it's quite yeah Ely oh I also want to Circle back to the setb H yeah oh yeah Circle back to yes we have to that part of the setback requirement will actually for the smaller Bots you're going to hit such a coverage ratio that once you're 6 feet off of all these lines it's not going to be practical you're going to be really limited on what you do you're not going to be able to get 300 fet on these right like there's going to be other things that supersede that kind of make it so you're not going to be able to but I understand but you know you're going to get somebody who's going to do something and then it's people are creative listen I'm sorry to be a dead horse but here's one other just one last thing I want to say so when I when I look at surveys on a daily basis a lot of people have these little rubber made sheds but a surveyor will actually note that as a shed now a lot of times they are up against a house well I'm not going to call somebody out and say oh you can't have your Rubber Maid shed up against your house because with those type of prefab little tiny things so do we then also include say okay you can have your little rubber made you know buy from Amazon kind of shed up against a house because a lot of people do that for they don't take it like four square feet like nothing so I think you have to Define maybe a DI Minimus right again Sur calls that out right if the surveyor calls that out it's a shed it's a shed it's a shed it's a shed G can enclosures that point yeah I think so as well I mean it sounds silly but again if we're really being you know as far as when it comes into me for a zoning officer I'll give you another really silly one I'd like to build a wood wood pile stack and put a little roof on it now do I does that work what is that do I have to put a drip line on that one is that a shed is that a shed do I bust it against a shed does that put a tarp over that's now put a tarp over those called a [Laughter] Woodshed sorry real quick before we move on um Tom I just wanted to point out um that one OT you made a 134.4 you added four principal building yes um I just double checked it's covered that's already covered by 1343 um which I'll read off to you accessory structure shall be at least 10t from any principal building situated on the same lot you shall be at least six feet away from any other accessory structure yes that's correct right so that's already covered so yeah so we can actually strike that now we don't need to include that yep yeah point just Tom the Lu 1343 which he just read out talks about no that's not the one that that's 10t wide 134.4 is 10 ft between principal building and structure to allow egress around no that's 1343 134.4 no this one o 134.5 is accessory structure shall be at least 10 ft from oh look at I can't even read this anymore okay what you said 1343 addresses your right all right okay yeah so it's in there all right Madame secretary I'm not done yet oh jeez trying to move on so really fast I want to give you a little highlight of what's coming um so uh we are looking at first floor Apartments uh that is in our master plan that we should be looking at that in some of our zones so we are um actively looking at that we are also looking at the uh zoning changes so like you have uh Sterling Village which I think is B b-120 I think it is or5 whatever um we're looking at that there are several others like like uh li2 is now just referenced as Li so we're going to be going through all of those uh changes for all those ordinances have it so we're going to be looking at a way to uh how how do we expedite that efficiently so we're not having called every single Lu uh but maybe we can do it listing wise uh so we are doing that we are also uh looking at um setbacks in the um business district so the front setbacks on business dri on Valley Road and uh we're also looking at uh places of worship so those are the items that we are actively working on there'll be things that we'll discover in conversations here there'll be uh things that I'll pick up in the TC meetings and other things that we'll look at but those are the things that we'll look at and if there are things that you guys see let me let me know and we will see how we prioritize that but we have over 200 right things to go through I wanted to just express my thanks to the orc for their work uh so keep up the good work and hopefully we'll get uh a bunch more ordinances up to the township committee here I'm trying to keep the TC busy that's right great okay so uh moving right along um uh I think we had asked for an update and you gave uh a roster of things and you also sent an email out with regards to upcoming applications Etc so I sent in the email that I sent today before the meeting so you have it electronically I also left you copies of our updated roster which includes Mr Mitchell and uh you have two applications coming up uh one in two weeks you're going to see the S the ground sign and then um I don't the other one for Myersville Road they are so that's a minor site plan coming in with they want to do like Paving additional Paving on you know so there's everybody's probably familiar with that property they there's a gravel area that used to be for parking but the new owners want to pave it it's minor site plan but they also I'm sure everybody's noticed there's a bowl statue of a bowl by yes uh that needs a variance from the board uh for need the variance under our sign ordinance so the so the applicant is currently looking at I basically said that but listen you know you need a variance for that bull and any other signage that doesn't that's a monument sign is it not is that considered I would consider L and I discuss that we would consider it a monument sign oh yeah yeah so so they're currently they're working on I you know I spoke with the attorney they're working on putting making sure that any signage that they propose is either going to meet the ordinance or they're going to include that in their minor s plan application yeah I I really want to see them get that place opened up but they seem to stub their toe along the way um so I guess my un if they're listening I would say get in line to if do the things right we' get you open yeah they are and but they Unfortunately they knew going into purchasing the property they were cleaning up whole lot from the owners thatand yeah I I I I do want to I do want to see that open but I do know that they've been working with the construction official to make sure that everything's you I see a lot of activity down there yeah yeah so another gravel Stone in the back area there but yeah those are the signage and uh Paving basically you know if they want to add a fence it generate anything you do in a commercial property you need a minor site plan for so th that's so with these upcoming applications it's going to be another plea from the chair to please communicate your status and we you know we do not want to be embarrassed by not having a quorum uh it just it looks bad uh it's a bad look for the town and for this board if we're not making a commitment uh to attend especially these applicants who spend a lot of money uh to come before us and we have should have the decency to make sure that we clear our schedules we're giving you plenty of advanced warning in that regards and also we've added um and thank you a calendar invite for the meetings as a means to making sure that it's getting in your calendar so hopefully everyone's seeing that and and things are getting uploaded uh onto your calendar some are using it some are not okay how you sure we can start no Nam meeting and I listen and I know that some of the zoning board members have complained about the calendar invite situation to because there are and again I'm not an IT person but I know that it if anyone is having a problem accepting the invite because it comes from an Outlook you know invite I can't use different because this is what the township is mandated for so I can't use any other invite scenario but if if you see when you see the email from me if you can't respond to it as an you know to accept the invitation then just shoot me a separate email and say yes I'm going to be in attendance I have I don't have it I've got ordinance right what I what I would recommend guys is you know just to again to facilitate communication work through those issues is just respond via email in regards to whether you're going to be there or not be there the assumption is you will be in attendance if you do not respond corre you know you're not going to be there you should you've got to respond with the with the affirm that's right okay any other old or new business in front of the board I I do have one item um I will be reaching out to uh prism to once again re-engage uh the the design uh aspects of the uh buildings on the TAA site so uh they haven't moved they haven't done anything uh because they're still waiting for obviously uh New Jersey American Water to get the sewer uh right Water Treatment Plant uh up to par um but I'll have that again every six months I've been reaching out just just so everyone knows too there's a two pronged approach here they have to work on a treatment works approval permit themselves to hook up to the Sewer so there's two things going correct yes so each each of these developments have to get their permit to hook up then to the Sewer but you know it's a little bit of a right they've got to they've got to connect in more ways than one yeah but yeah I'll I'll go back because I know that um we definitely want to make sure that we have that conversation about what those buildings look like y yeah good good any other old or new business great is there a motion to adjourn so moved second second meeting to churn e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e for