e okay we're on the air well engineered days good evening and welcome to the Long Hill Township planning board meeting uh for May the 28th um we um have a healthy agenda tonight but I think we move fairly quickly through the agenda would you please uh do the honor of the announcements absolutely Mr chairman number one call to order and statement of liance adequate notice of this meeting or hearing has been provided by posting a copy of the public meeting and hearing dates on the municipal bulletin board and website by sending a copy to the echos Sentinel newspaper and by filing a copy with the municipal clerk number two standard board procedures any meeting or hearing conducted by the board is a quasi judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and deorum appropriate to a Judicial meeting hearing must be maintained at all times number three meeting cut off announcement is made that as a matter of procedure it is the intention of the planning board not to continue any matter past 10:30 p.m. at any regular or special meeting or hearing of the board unless a motion is passed by the members then present to extend the meeting or hearing to a later specified cutoff time number four electronic devices all in attendance are asked to mute cell phones or any electronic devices as to not interrupt the proceedings number five pledge of I pledge alance to the flag of the United States of America to the repic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all okay roll call Deputy Mayor lavender present committee man ray is recused this evening from this meeting Miss D present Mr H here Mr melanowski here here Mr opela here Mr Sandow here Vice chairman Jones present chairman Richardson here chairman we have a COR thank you okay uh first uh on the agenda is just to go over and approve the meeting minutes from April 23rd 2024 request everyone's had an opportunity to review those minutes are there any additions questions comments okay hearing none is there a motion to accept these minutes so move second all in favor I I meetings pass let the record show that I did not vote thank you Mr sand and who else didn't vote I didn't because I wasn't here yeah oh Brendan didn't vote he's not here because he's not here anyway okay uh onto agenda item number eight uh regarding applications we have an extension request for Block 10801 L 3 at 621 Valley Road this is application number 2020-7 uh made by Elite properties at lill LLC is there a motion to ex to accept this extension request do we have anyone present for to speak on the applicant side no they submitted a letter to uh the board detention on April 22nd and and the reasoning the reason uh is due well they they ask under two criteria one under the board's uh authority to extend for good cause that's section 52a of the municipal land use law and they also requested it under 52d which is uh when the applicant experiences delays from outside agencies as we know there's sewer capacity issue so they haven't secured the appropriate permitting from New Jersey American water and as such they've asked to extend their um approval from which would have expired on April 26 2024 to April 26 2025 and my office did circulate a resolution to that effect that could be passed with an affirmative vote right and just just for just for recordkeeping um 621 Valley Road that is the consignment shop or is that the one next to um right here or Jet's Four Corners it's this one closer one one right here okay right we've not received an application yet for the consent okay thank you yes cross from strip yeah yep the ninth strip Mo have a question down here yes I have a comment about one word on the second page of this resolution well maybe it's a third page at line eight in the whereas paragraph it says up uh delays in obtaining the necessary TWA from the sewage Authority having jurisdiction I don't think that New Jersey American water is a sewage Authority I think they're a sewage utility that's correct you can um make that as a motion to adopt the resolution as amended it should be sewer uh sewer utility and not sewage Authority that's correct so moved second I'm sorry who was the second okay I think we need a roll call vote we do y Mr sand yes Mr malinowski yes Deputy Mayor lavender yes Miss D yes Mr Hans yes Mr rala yes Vice chairman Jones yes chairman Richardson yes motion carries very good thank you okay next up we have oh wait a minute did we just vote on the resolution or did we vote on the amendment to the resolution the extension request the am with the amendment with the amendment resolution as amended by your yes okay so do we now have to vote separately on the resolution itself in its entirety no because you can adopt the resolution as amended orally yeah whatever you say that's what we vot that's what I vot was the amended resolution okay uh will the applicants come forward for please the minor site plan this is for block 12302 lot 13 uh this is in the the Millington Village zone or soon to be or I guess future Millington Zone uh for 1891 Long Hill Road application number 24-9 P for the Millington Volunteer Fire Company thank you please good evening Mr chair members of the board board professionals Frederick zeli post pollic on behalf of the applicant uh the applicant is in fact the Millington Volunteer Fire Company who may be familiar with their work hopefully not too familiar with their work subject property hosts their Firehouse it's a corner lot located on the southwest corner of Long Hill Road and Crescent Drive in the Millington section of the township on April 4th 2024 the applicant took delivery of a new ladder truck to replace an aging and significant smaller ladder truck new apparatus is 51 ft long and while it does fit into the center Bays of the firehouse which are the longest bays in that building it does so with very little room to spare in front of it and behind it as you can see in the photographs that we've submitted this makes it difficult for firefighters to maneuver around the truck especially when wearing full turnout gear increasing the danger of a firefighter physically striking a corner or an appendage of the truck and hold on Mr hold on okay please continue again this the the lack of space between the end of the truck and the back wall makes it difficult for firefighters to maneuver around the truck especially when wearing full Tean out gear increasing the danger of a firefighter physically striking a corner or an appendage of the truck and injuring him or herself in the rush of an emergency call the risk of doing so is increased applicant therefore wishes to construct a modest 4.8 ft or 72t bump out at the rear of the southernmost of the two Center Bays to provide room for safe maneuvering around the truck this proposed expansion will require two bulk variances one for a sidey yard setback variance of 1.2 feet where 10 ft is required I will know that 6.2 is the existing situation will also require a DI Minimus bulk variance uh for an increase of uh. 3% from 79.4 to 79.7 where 60% is permitted uh there's been prior variance approvals for the existing conditions I have three Witnesses this evening but we're going to try to set a record for the fastest delivery we can do in three Witnesses we have Patrick golden who's a member of the company and also the contractor of record uh Thomas Ellenberger our architect and Bill Hollows our engineer great so what I'd suggest if we can is just we're all three at the same time yep can you all stand and raise your right hand do you all swear affirm that a test you'll give in front of this board will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth Mr Golden you're up first come right to this mic if you would and Fred I just want to note for the record as well that I did review your notice it was timely served timely published and its content was sufficient thank you and are we good with the qualification of the professionals we're going to go each one when they come up they do it thank you Mr Golden would you introduce yourself including giving your address for the record uh my name is Patrick golden I live at 673 L Hill Road in Gillette G U or g g g o l d n thanks and what is your connection with Millington Volunteer Fire Company I've been a member at the fire company for more than 48 years um I've held all of the line officer uh positions including Chief um I've been a former trustee uh I am currently the chairman of the building committee and I am also the training officer in the company okay and even though I'm going to have you testim testify primarily as a member of the fire company just for the record uh what is your name of your company and your connection with that company who's doing the work so the company I work for is called goldcon uh where it's located in Sterling New Jersey um and we're primarily General Contractors and um Endeavor to uh put this addition up if so approved Okay so from your perspective as a member and officer of the fire company and in charge of the building committee why do we need this well um I mean it it stems from the need of the apparatus truly um so the current uh apparatus that we have that's uh in its last leg of its service um was purchased 32 years ago uh at the time it was a modern piece of apparatus for the needs of the town uh um since that time that purchase uh the needs of the town have slowly changed uh over time in a in a variety of ways um and one of the things that we do when we choose equipment is is that we need because of the long time lengths we need to look forward um and so looking forward in town um we certainly just with this previous extension right here um you know are going to see some increased uh height uh and and densities we we have some of those style now but we have no four Stories the subject property just spoke of will be Podium construction with three stories above it so it'll be a true four story so the latter truck that we're uh that we are going to take receipt of now um has a capacity of 109 ft the previous truck that we had was 75 ft um the previous truck um could service most of the buildings in town but one notable exception was Central School uh and so we really feel that especially in today's day and age that things like that should be as well serviced as as possible so um to be able to get that additional reach if you will or service um the truck needs to be of a larger length they they never seem to get smaller they always seem to get Lar ler if you were at the parade yesterday and noticed Sterling's 32 uh you know Ford it's uh much different than than the trucks there are today um so we've purchased as as modern and as serviceable a truck as possible but that comes with additional height and length we don't have to do anything height-wise but we do have to do a little bit of work lengthwise and as I indicate the beginning you can confirm this is true the the truck physically fits but what's the butt correct so the so the the truck itself measures 41 feet the bay measures in excess of 43 ft um so doing the math if you pull your car in your driveway and in your garage and you have one foot in front and you have one foot behind it it makes it for rather tight um currently we have all of our gear placed along the back walls of if any of you have been in the firehouse so um so all of our members um gear lines up over there so currently getting the truck into the firehouse removes all those spaces for the gear um and as well as still a very tight fit for the um you know for the uh for the apparatus so so from a function standpoint we have now suffered somewhat with this new apparatus and obviously you have two two choices if we're going to work with existing P which is either to bump out the back or bump forward in the front correct uh and as I recall from Reading prior resolutions you can clarify this there was some concern with the board of adjustment at the time uh about being too close to Crescent with with the vehicles if they're parked in front of the building so if we moved forward we'd be even closer to Cresent Fair de that's correct and and it's really just a technical uh issue and that's the turning radius of these vehicles so there's a maximum turning radius um that we can get out of a vehicle for it to safely operate um so to be able to operate within the cartway without making an additional move coming out of the firehouse um the only and with the additional length the the old truck is about 37 ft um this is 41 so it's about 4 foot longer so the truck really needs to get completely out of the bay before we can actually start to make our turn um the the back wheels are 7 feet forward of the back of the truck so if you start to make that turn before the back end is out of the truck you will then damage a building so we're we're 4 foot closer we've been able to improve some of the turning radius through some features that we are able to incorporate in the design of the truck but um it is um it's it's very close all right I will ask further building questions of Mr Ellenberger just so we don't duplicate testimony so I have nothing further for Mr Golden at this time would you like to have everyone testify first and then do questions what would you the record's probably easier if you do one at a time even though it takes a little longer fantastic great first of all thank you for your extensive service it's an amazing record of service to the town I really appreciate it it's it's our honor it really is yes so thank you questions for this uh witness this is the longest ladder in town would it be the 41 foot yes it actually is the only ladder as well so is as a part of the procurement process we try not to um duplicate anything so there are certain vehicles that that the Millington fire company has that the Sterling fire company does not and vice versa so Sterling for instance specializes in rescue so they they have the rescue vehicle and would do all the extrication and rescue we have the ladder so we would do things that were associated with that so so the the Departments or the companies in the department are actually complimentary to each other so we would only then be able to um get Mutual Aid which which we have good agreements so another ladder would have to come from outside the town thank you and there there's no concern for the Neighbors nobody's ra any issues about this uh the certainly not for the latter itself um you know the the the the whistle occasionally becomes a bit of an issue especially for for new folks that that move to a place that has has never been around a Volunteer Fire Company but um we uh we try to be good neighbors and make amends where we can thank you Dennis and then we'll come to Tom yeah go ahead Dennis many years ago we heard that the Berkeley Heights ladder was the biggest one around is is our new truck bigger or smaller than the Berkeley Heights ladder well well in in measured profile we are certainly smaller in reach we equal each other although there we actually there are two different types without getting too far into the weed so so we just have a ladder okay we do not have a platform Berkeley Heights has a platform they serve different purposes on on the fire ground ladders are much much more customarily for rescue so we can we can put them in service quickly get a ladder up and make as we say in the business a grab and and that that's what our fundamental focus is we do have a Waterway and we can apply water but it's really secondary to the uh to rescue and the safety of our members as they operate thank you Tom P why was the one Bay chosen as opposed to the other or extending both Bays um the uh that's the B so the so the the Crescent okay is as you all know is an inverted curve okay and that bay is farthest away from where the inverted curve is so so again to be able to get out of the out of the building we did explore briefly um uh opening up the back but the um quite honestly the cost drove us away from it um to be able to do this project we're going to have to temporarily support the the the ceiling which is which is really our training room up above and the roof Rafters to be able to pull everything out and get some get some new beams and in Mr lber talk to you about that but um the the expense really kind of drove us away from going any bigger than than what we currently needed now okay so and the one Bay will be enough for future needs then obviously it's you know I mean so this to be very honest this is the fourth edition onto the firehouse okay since 1915 so uh you know uh I can't stand here and swear that that that that that'll be the case but um certainly in for foreseeable future and and for the rest of of my career there uh that it will satisfy good okay thank you thanks any questions yes um so again thank you very much for your service to your community also for your business being here in Sterling thank you for for that as well um and thanks for addressing uh Tom's point about the bump out just you made an interesting comment about some of the buildings that will be uh um built here when the sewer plant finally uh accomodate you made a reference that this building over here in Gillette um four stories yes sir now I've also heard it's only three stories it's just parking down below so depending on who you talk to you're going to hear three stories and you're going to hear four stories my question is how tall of a building can your ladder truck accommodate it it it's a it's a little bit of a of a of a mixed bag because it depends on where I can park okay so if I can park as we like to call it at the number right in front of the building y i you know I I could reach you know six stories seven stories but you're not at the numbers and you're on a curve and you're trying to extend out that may that may drop to five or four depending how far you can safely extend that ladder that that is that is correct and and some of the projects that are proposed here don't really have good cart ways all the way around them corre so there are portions of those buildings that we actually can't won't be able to get to at all and would have to just rely on portable ladders for that Okay the reason why I bring it up especially for this board is when we have applicants in front of us talking to us about Heights of building we're going to hear that parking is not considered a first story even if it's underneath the building it's the living space so if it looks like four stories but there's parking it's only three stories according to uh who you talk to so that's the reason why I asked the question about how far that ladder can extend because there may be future projects that come down the line that we're going to have to take into consideration and we have to remember underground parking or first level parking is not considered a story MH so that's Theon it's not but but an absolute height it's still in your book it is a story it it is a story you can call it whatever you like okay there's an absolute height yeah and and we do appreciate the ability to be able to comment which we do do on applications and certainly the ones in the future you know we will be happy to comment and point out things as uh uh you know as they come up y thank you very much for that thank you any further questions no thanks thank you thanks sir Mr Ellenberg you're up for the record do we have to accept his credentials he's he only testified as a lay witness he he we were asking about credentials and yeah he was testifying only as a lay witness and let the record show there are no members of the public here to further questions for the applicant and and we're not using Zoom oh as long as the board can see it okay than one okay yeah it's fine Mr renberger would you uh give us your full name and business address for the record please sure uh Thomas Ellenberger 4 Walnut Avenue here in Sterling and would you please give us the benefit of your educational and professional background I'm a graduate of Temple University um licensed to practice architecture state of New Jersey for 22 years and my license is currently in good standing ask that he be qualified as an expert in the field of architecture anybody have any okay approved gburger you are the architect of record for this project is that correct correct okay could you take us through your plan and if you would as you're going through your testimony explain why a rear bump out is preferable to a front bump out other than the reason we've already heard which is obviously significant but an architectural P perspective from a construction Logistics perspective okay this is identical to what you submitted this is exactly what was submitted yes um so the bump out in the back is The Logical uh location um constructability it'll be supported by a single beam going across the back um the trapezoidal shape is really um determined partially by the size of the truck but also the existing generator that's in place um we didn't want to uh encroach too close for serviceability of that existing generator um the construction will match as far as construction type it will match what's existing it's a masonry building single in this section will'll be a single story uh with a woodframe roof that'll be finished with a metal roofing material um with a St uh kind of a standard shed roof um as you can see from the elevation standard shed roof that'll be metal from the um north side because of the slope or the grade from the front um towards the back you're really not going to see very much of the addition it's kind of uh hidden towards the back lot would it is it fair to say that to enlarge from the front even if we didn't have a truck issue and turning radius and so forth uh would be more involved to try to expand from the front well the the challenge with the front um from the architecture standpoint is that the the way the roof works there um it would you would then be dealing with a uh a a uh roof structure of the existing trying to deal with that structurally where here the addition stays below the roof line so really it's just kind of above buting up to the existing masonry and is it also fair to say that from the back since it's somewhat invisible as you've indicated we can bump out just the one Bay where if you tried to do that in the front just given the um the appearance of the building it would be tricky you'd have to really expand both Bays I I agreed yeah I think you would be addressing both Bays nothing further for Mr Ellenberger questions for this witness and I assume the area you're proposing is more than sufficient for the size of the ladder you're not constrained by the lot line or anything like that are you just want to make sure the bump out is very sufficient for what your needs are I think um I think it'll get the job done is it generous would would we like to have would it be better with a a a a larger setback yeah absolutely but um from what I understand I think that'll be enough for the equipment to be in place and still provide um access for uh the team to get beyond the vehicle to this side transverse between the two bays just curious is it are you going to have a back door to that is just just question no strictly a bump out very simp any reason not to have a back door just um access I don't know if is there any thought to back door yeah no no need to no okay and the only question I have is associated with the concrete pad around the generator so will that then be removed to accommodate that there was a small section okay that will be removed and then the utilities because I noticed when I walk the site I'll go on the back there from the generator that's where you get fancy so there is a um conduit of several different uh mostly electric going across the back of the building to the generator and what our plan is is to essentially leave that in place so there will be a beam supporting the opening the span across the back and that's a approximate location where that conduit would be so intenti essentially the conduit is outside the building it would enter the building go across and then get to the generator so we're not relocating it's really ceing height is ceiling height on the inside uh it's it's above so uh the beam height should be about 8 foot6 and the conduit should be about somewhere about a foot higher than that okay and 8 fo6 is sufficient for the truck to go under it or thank you right yep that was going to be my question thank you okay any other questionss no and I you I know that that there's been a couple of additions put on since the very first where we closed up the front of the building in whenever 19 something or other and we added the back part and then we added a third part that that this is the only place the ladder truck can go um my understanding yeah my understanding bait and I think Mr holl will be able to um provide further testimony as far as this location for this truck is due to the Turning rate to actually exit the building safely okay I'll wait for Mr Holland then actually Mr are there any other questions from Mr Ellenberg thank you thank you Tom if you want to just hand the uh mic back to Pat for one quick what quick question I'll have him answer that is there any existing Bay that is even close to the length of this truck there there there's not I mean there could be some considerable reconstruction of the building so it's so as as we like to say a Goan we can engineer our way at anything but um it it obviously has a monetary impact so so this creates the balance between availability and monetary impact for the town I realize you could possibly engineer yourself out of a straight line but um that last building all the way to the left looks far shorter uh it's a large garage door that was not a consideration at any time it it certainly it certainly could could have been um but but the the point is is and this has comes back into this engineering and you could do it two ways by the way cuz that is a paper Street that's on the side of that so that's Commerce Street on the side so you could have either raised that the roof of the existing building and come out towards the Crescent or you could have essentially removed all the foundation and the floor and everything and then gone out the side okay onto the um uh you know the paper Street Commerce Street and then and then exited left and and gone onto uh onto the Crescent so again there's there's always possibilities but um I would imagine there would been a lot more cost from then a little bump out that word hundreds of thousands of dollars for for either of those options all right thank you thank you than you Mr Hollows last but not least especially since the variances do happen to be civil engineering related so just date your name and address for the record please William Hollow 192 Central Avenue Sterling New Jersey ever been in front of this board before Mr holl I have uh is your Li a couple couple of lot line adjustments recently is your license still in good standing this evening it is I'd ask that Mr holl be qualified as a civil engineer any objection no very good bill if you would just take us through the site and show us why we need these two variances please same question this is identical to the plan set submitted 10 days in advance yes it is great and I didn't render it because it's such a small small addition here um we've got Long Hill Road on the uh left side of the drawing the Crescent on the top of the drawing you've got the existing building which we've hatched in in um and the area that we're talking about is at this lot line corner um and if you've been out there there's the generator kind of marks where this area is and the addition is it's a 5- foot Edition um it's got kind of an angle to it this building is not parallel to the property line so at the proposed corner of the addition it's 1.4 ft at the closest point at which would be the corner it comes to 1.2 ft and part of this pad for the uh generator is going to be removed for for the addition we are seeking one the uh side yard setback variant of the 1.2 ft and also a variance for coverage and the addition is 72 square ft but the net is 51 Square ft additional because the uh the pad will be made a little bit smaller and that comes out to from 60% is allowed of lot coverage we're at 79.4 today and we're looking for the variance to go to 79.7 which is that 51 square feet Mr holl just before I forget uh you've reviewed Miss lean's uh review report is that correct that's correct and Mr V is memo I I have okay and other than clarifying the 1.2 versus the 1.4 any other issues raised by either of those professionals that we need to address no technical as far as uh the layout all right nothing further for Mr Hollow Fred what about uh what she what Liz mentions at number three for the potential for a variance for the generator in the sidey yard as well I don't think that was part of the prior approval so if you want to throw that in as a variance just for record keeping that's probably a smart idea from a housekeeping perspective and we did notice for additional variances so yes I would make that request thank you do we know what the what the setback of the generator from the thing is can we scale that so I can throw it in the resolution do we go by the pad on that bill or from the actual generator the setback that's a good question I think it's actually the generator the other is it's a little bit above grade but not a whole lot well we air on the side of caution can you scale off the corner to the pad tightest distance to the pad I'm scaling about 2 and A2 ft two and a half yes thank you that was my only record keeping thing thank you and we're sure that uh there wasn't already a variance issued for that generator yeah I read the prior approvals and it it just slip through the cracks it either when they went back to have the generator installed it wasn't caught as impeding the side yard where they would have gone to the board of adjustment or so for or it's possible even that the ordinance was changed to include it as an accessory structure and it could pre-exist that ordinance but to be safe if they request it as relief it's part of the historic record of the property right just for the record that generator was identified in a tour that I was making with another applicant in 2007 so that generator was installed more than 17 years ago but the generator ordinance has not been changed in that length of time so however the generator was installed it was 17 years ago not conforming with the ordinance and probably wasn't at the time it was installed and things kind of happen it's easier to ask forgiveness but I think the time has come to ask forgiveness forgiveness appreciate that we appreciate Miss leaney for bringing that up initially and Mr Flynn for reminding me so just one small thing on the first sheet lot 11's identified as subject property the one the one story building is this is that we'll correct that okay I'm actually doing a saite plan for that property so thank you AutoCAD that's it any further questions just a minor Point Liz talked about fencing around the generator do we care about that or is that worth thinking about or not does it well really matter I mean one perspective if you look at the rendering now this bump out will kind of screen the generator correct from the street view or the street vantage point because the pump out is about the same with and if there's only it cut it Heights half of it it Heights half of it a little more obscured if there's only two and a half feet from the lot line to that pad if you put anything in there it's going to be next to impossible to get around the back side of it yeah and uh the uh owner of lot 11 is not here this evening but I do represent him uh and I know his biggest concern was uh that the footing or anything else wouldn't actually encroach on the line and the fence would exacerbate that concern even more so yeah that's why I was asking earlier any comments from Neighbors so you do represent neigh he's absolutely aware of this application we've had in-depth discussions um with fire with fire department personnel even so he's comfortable Let It Be and who's the owner of lck 10 uh is that corgs cors right yeah that's 11 oh below that's 10 this is 10 yeah 11 who's who we talking about correct so 11 which you which was most recently the ice cream shop um uh and so there's Pro the car property which is on the other side of 11 if you're familiar and it's also Lot 10 they they come down it's actually a separate lot but their ownership comes down and goes behind both Lev and the firehouse to Commerce as I recall I take that back no it doesn't does it go all the way behind the firehouse to Commerce no no does not that's right okay so it goes It goes all the way behind 11 though and then hits the uh firehouse and for clarification your comment was on lot 11 the owner of lot 11 11 yes I don't represent car thank you so are you are you satisfied then with yeah I just want to make sure we discussed it that's point that she raised about the wor a discussion okay any other comments again uh as Deb had mentioned we have no members of the public here so I think we move on to summation okay thank you um I won't reiterate anything about what we're proposing it's very straightforward as far as your positive and negative Criterion uh it's either a C1 uh for both variances or all three variances now if we include the generator uh all based upon the existing lawfully existing location of the building itself um we can't go forward because of the issues with the turning radius and and the location of Crescent Drive so this is really the only feasible uh location uh but from a C2 perspective there are multiple um purposes of the municipal land use law that come into play here um uh letter A dealing with public welfare obviously we're uh improving a uh building that is dedicated to public welfare and safety uh so we're looking at that for letter B uh which is to secure safety from fire flood Panic Etc uh we're enabling firefighters responding to such disasters to do so in a safer more efficient matter uh through this addition uh F to encourage appropriate expenditures of public funds uh we're expanding the firehouse to the most efficient and cost effici cost effective manner as Mr Golden has indicated uh letter H encouraging the location design of Transportation routes uh we're taking into account here uh Crescent Drive and trying to set up a situation where even if the truck were able to physically turn if were parked outside in the bay it would be encroaching onto Crescent which was something raised by the board of adjustment years ago uh to provide a v desirable visual environment uh this might not be the prettiest addition in the world considering it's just a block uh but again we're trying to preserve what is attractive which is the front uh facade of the building so by not having to touch that uh we preserve that uh that visual component uh and again uh m is encouraging coordination of various public and private procedures with a view of lessening the cost of development and that's exactly what we're doing here by uh proposing a solution that is cost effective uh and of course these are uh public funds uh for lack of a better description even though the company's uh independent uh so for all those reasons I think we satisfy the positive Criterion for both C1 and a C2 uh negative criterian uh we're dealing as far as the generator goes it's an existing condition that hasn't caused any problems so far and we don't expect it to in the future uh the coverage is literally di Minimus we tend to throw that word around but this is a textbook example of it uh and as far as the main variant here this the closer setback again the only property owner who's really affected uh is comfortable with the application and and I've expressed that on his behalf uh so I think we've satisfied both the positive and negative criteria for both the C1 and C2 thank you for hearing us this evening we'd appreciate a positive vote great thank you so a motion to close the public portion and then we can enter deliberations yes motion uh motion to close public hearing public right hearing yep second all in favor hi was there a second I didn't hear a second second okay Tom Tom I thought you yeah I thought well I was ask sorry that was a very sheepish second it was second with a question second hear the question I'm sorry Mr chairman are we going to have a discussion of this before we vote Yes absolutely I wanted to get first Matt if you want to just summarize my understanding is there real no conditions that were discussed in this application so no other than correcting the um the inconsistency on the cover sheet but that that was that was really it it would just be the standard boilerplate conditions that we have uh in any resolution okay please I open it up now for board questions discussion comments yes well I'd like I'd like to start by saying that I am very disappointed that engine has been on order for a long time we certainly knew how big it was at the time we ordered it replacing the existing ladder truck has been under discussion for at least 5 years maybe more and this machine was ordered a long time ago and we knew exactly what the measurements would be and we knew exactly how big the hole was in the existing garage that would fit it and yet here we are 6 weeks after the truck was delivered uh finally getting around to asking for this extension uh that's Point number one the other point is this generator issue that our planner pointed out is really Troublesome because as I mentioned earlier that generator has been operating without a variance for at least 17 years and it has been the custom of both the boards to always require that an application include cleaning up all the pre-existing variances and if you don't believe that just look at Sterling Hotel and uh at this point when and if the truck ever comes back from the repair shop uh it will fit in the existing building it will be rain proofed a little hard to get around inside the garage I'll admit but I think we have time to get this application revised to get it right otherwise the uh the the generator issue creates a very bad example for uh how people can do things on their own in this town without board approval Mr sand aside from us not catching it on initial application which is exactly why we have the catch off raise and notices what is the concern thank you the applicant is already said we're going to clean up right we've requested this evening on our feet so to speak yeah uh thanks to uh Mr all I'm suggesting is that is that there is no pressing hurry to approve this tonight uh because of the fact that the engine's been delivered we known for two years that it needed a bigger space and and here we are at the last minute uh another couple weeks to get the application perfected uh so that we have something that that really cleans it up and sets a better example for the other uh applicants in town I think it's worth the time any comments no in regards to the application or comments from Mr Sand's request don't it's just my clarity when you say revision is it just particularly around the generator that the one point about the generator say again the revision you're discussing or mentioning is that just to do with the gener well Liz pointed out that the generator violates a whole number of rules about setback and we could the board has the authority to Grant a variance after the fact 17 years after the fact but at least that would clean up the record and that generator is 17 years old so maybe it's about due to be replaced in anyway the request for the variance is on the table say again the request for the variance has been made well I understand that but it's not papered how would you describe what what language could go into this that would cover the cons it's it's this sort of thing I mean I you know I I appreciate U Mr Sandow's comments um but from a legal perspective the applicant when they notice this application they use a allowable form of notice that says if the board professionals catch any additional relief that wasn't previously granted the board is vested with jurisdiction to grant that request at the time and and another reason that you throw that catchall language is if you make changes to the plans during testimony to accommodate concerns from the board sometimes that necessitates additional relief so to the extent that the application documents could be amended to reference what Liz references in our report I suppose that could be done uh but there's no reason that the board doesn't have the authority to uh consider the request on the record tonight so so what what language would you put into the resolution to cover that point it would be included in their request for Relief so on the first page of the resolution when we list the variances that are requested we have the sidey guard setback for the addition 1.2 ft whereas 10 is required we have uh lot coverage which is the 70 some odd percent or 60s allowed and the setback for the generator uh 2.5 ft where again where 10 is is allowed so it's the it would be on the first page uh as a historic record of the property that they requested that variance today sounds like the approach to take yeah all right so do we have a motion with regards to this application with those three points that you articulated being covered and assuming that meets approval it does thank you just a question if they do have to replace the generator do they have to come back and request if the generator gets moved in in at this point is there a way to make a catch all that if the generator gets replaced that they don't have to come back because we said it's to the generator not to the generator no they did it to the pad they did Oh I thought it was to the yeah that's that's why I asked him to do it for the pad abundance covers us all the way around so as long as it that pad doesn't move they can replace a generator on the site without needing further without okay correct and you had testified that the pad is or was it slightly elevated you said that's that's from the ground surface the so as long as the generator stays within the confines of that pad doesn't go over at the edge uh it would be fine be covered okay we have a motion I I motion with those three conditions that we discuss the approval of this uh application yes second okay Mr Hans yes Vice chairman Jones yes Deputy Mayor lavender yes Miss D yes Mr melanowski yes Mr opela yes Mr Sandown yes and chairman Richardson yes motion carries thank you all very much have a wonderful evening thank you thanks for com thanks you I'll send you a copy of the resolution for your thank you now don't get a bigger truck or a bigger generator it's only it's only to serve you these are not self- indul or if you do put the application in your head that's right cut down in your fire my fire stays in the fire pit okay thanks we're on to uh agenda item number nine a board discussion uh this is more of uh the workshop portion of our meeting to talk about uh some ordinances that uh Tom has helped to facilitate uh a introduction to and a summary of and I'll turn it over to Tom in regards to just summarizing the three ordinances that uh are in development yep and we do that thank you Mr chair um so yes so we have the um ordinance review I don't know are we a committee or a board because we're either an or or we're an orb okay you can't be a board you're a committee I'm a committee so I'm an or all right so we're in orc um consisting of Teresa and and David and we'll be working together to uh go through master plan ordinance suggestions things that come up in discussion when we're looking at applications stuff that uh it comes in from multiple Avenues so there's no one funnel it's a bunch of funnels and we we have three now before I go into those Mr Sandow raised up something about a generator ordinance is that something that we're going to have to talk about at some point that needs to be reviewed the generators no I don't think so okay generators don't come up that often well if there's something in an ordinance that where the generator is wrong I'm going I'm going to make a note and I'm going to go back and look at it just to see um um I will interject there I do believe that Liz and I in our discussions about generator she mentioned it being treated as an accessory structure thus needing to be 6 feet away from any primary or uh second secondary structures however that's not really UCC code that's one of those catchalls where as the zoning officer and the construction Department we um we we look at the setbacks from the property line at side or rear can't be in the front yard obviously however the generator itself the placement of the generator against any accessory structure be at a shed a detach garage or a primary residence or building that's really dictated by the generator company itself okay and does it is it dictated by the type of generator because you have diesel it can be dictated by the type it can also be dictated where it's next to for instance if there's a window or a door I think it has to be 5T if it's if there's nothing on that side within a a specific area can it it only has to be like 18 in something to that effect I I I'm okay I don't we don't need there's there's a piece of stupidity in the generator ordinance that a generator can't be located within 75 ft of a Zone boundary if the other side of the Zone boundary is residential which means that if you have a business and you want to install a generator and there happen to be residences across the street and the Zone boundary is the center line of the street that means that the Gen your generator has to be located at least 75 ft from the center of the street if the other side of the street is a residential Zone and that's that's a pretty hard test to pass because so many of our commercial lots are very small and don't don't give you the flexibility to go 75 ft away from a property line or a Zone boundary okay and I'm not sure how to handle that all right but it's worth talking about all right so we'll talk about that at a future meeting so I've made some notes Here uh and I'll carry that forward by bringing suggestions to this group incidentally that killed us that killed an application in Gillette right over here yeah the insurance place yep okay so um thank you for that thank you for bringing that up and um we'll come back with some suggestions and that's kind of how the process is going to be working where we get where we discover things so we have three proposals or three ordinances that need to be reviewed one is about uh home office signs and residential zones the second one residential sheds I won't go into the history on how we came about this and then the third is fences walls and hedges I think that says yes hudes so the first thing I want to talk about is the um home office signs in residential zones so the issue is that a uh sign in a residential area cannot be exceed more than four square fet so 2x two or 1x4 and in a recent application that 4 foot sign that four square foot sign did um present the problem so we s we we made suggestions for that application to be 8 in by 18 in in residential zones all residential zones so that's what we did for that applicant but I think there's some comments about some people uh from people who may want to propose something a little bit different and I'm happy to hear that um but I have circulated this uh spreadsheet which everyone will get and then it has the entire ordinance there for you to read so you don't have to go mining for it I've called out exactly where uh the the languages it needs to be changed we've offered suggestions for what those changes could be and then I also added a common field about how it ties back how did this come to be so for this one it's the application over in Norwood so the proposal is 8 in x 18 in but I'm not hard fast on that I'm happy to uh take commentary from around the table so Dennis the sign for a home office is that only permitted if the office home office has been permitted under the ordinance in other words if somebody opens up an office in their home and doesn't have board approval uh but the but which they could do I mean I've got an office in my house for my Consulting business but could does that give me the right to put out a 2X two sign could or do I have to get a board approval for the office use before the sign permission kicks in I think we need to get board approval for office use I work from home two days a week three days a week but that's home office but you're not commercial advertising no I'm not commercial advertising bus that's correct so you can't just throw a sign up on your lawn and say it's permitted because I have an office you can't you you can't do that it must be a permitted office before the sign and then the sign is a uh is a freebie the sign doesn't have to to be approved if it fits this the 2x two requirement well 2x two is the current requirement so I think it's actually a pretty good point because think about you just created an LLC of some company name right nobody checks if you actually have it and let's say it's something that's LW or crass along those lines right you could put a 2 by two sign up on the front lawn that's permanent and so I think it Mak doesn't stop you from declaring you have a home office all we're doing is addressing the the size of the sign sure and but I think that the signage saying that there should be a stipulation that the home office is approved for the home office use in the residential Zone before you get the sign I think is Mr sand isn't it the type of business that we really need to focus on because the type of business that this application was initially connected to was uh a chiropractor or right where he's getting he's having clients coming to the the home and so that would be that would be like a dentist chle or hair salon right is where you have people coming to that location that somehow maybe needs to be further clarified and defined in ordinance with regards to that becoming an official come before the board for that use I once had an attorney different ordinance I once had an attorney who worked out of his house and of course he had no sign there and very few people knew that he was actually open for business as an attorney I think he was semi-retired but but I would object to that because he did have regular traffic coming in he probably should have had zoning approval for the office use and and that would have granted him permission to put the sign up but I think we have to tighten the whole process so there is a an ordinance for home office and that's 24.9 in that uh ordinance does it specify what you have to do or how does it designate a home office yeah you need minor yeah but I I can only remember two in the past 10 years hold on I want to hear I want to hear an answer to my question you need minor site plan approval if you're going to do a uh a display a sign display um so the difference is if you're marketing your office from your house you have to meet the conditions in section 24.9 of the ordinance or you would need a variance uh addressed in that is the percentage of your floor area that you devote to office uh a sign uh is signage regulations are mentioned and minor site plan is required so if that's the in if to the point of Mr Sandow if you uh want to put a sign up and Mark Market your business it has to meet the criteria of the home office ordinance and that's I'm not sure if that contradicts your ordinance here 155 the following signs are permitted in all Zone districts signs indicating I'm sorry a single ground sign or wall sign indicating oh well it says a permitted home office yep and and the and the home office ordinance says so they have to satisfy 1249 I think you're fine just editing the size and that I think alleviates what Dennis is because it gets picked up as a minor sight plan yes right and and and in that ordinance it says that any demonstration of such use including signs uh as permitted by 155.25 size correct correct me if I'm wrong uh Tom but I I seem to recall and I think it's even written there's a 2 by one or a two square foot sign 2 by two or 1 by4 that's four square feet no but there I thought there was a two square foot for house numbering so a sign for house numbering or signage on a residence a couple of lines up yeah residents designation signs not exceeding Square fet two square feet that's pretty big yeah but but that's a compromise I think the 8 by 18 in I I forgot to bring my props I actually cut out some cardboard uh I had it for the last meeting uh but it seemed a bit small for somebody being able to view or fit their information on the sign and have it legible from any distance whatsoever whereas the 2x one which is already kind of in the written into the ordinance seemed to me to be more workable so that was to just raise I'm fine I'm fine with a 2 by one can I that's that's not like a can I make a comment yeah sure so first off these are offices in residential areas correct right these are going to be doctors dentists acupuncturists maybe certified public accountants going to any town I grew up in Bayon they're on every street it's a 12 x 24 in Sun that's your two square feet yep mhm those kind of offices the reason they have the sign is so people walk to the right house and usually people know where they're going so they don't need a 4-foot sign right so I'd say cut to the chase make it 12 by 24 yep yeah and you know y I'd be even more inclined to worry about the colors yeah I say the texture of it is actually more like of a well that would be the next thing when we're talking about what kind of signs would be permitted or what do they call them momento monuments what do they call them if it's a ground sign it's Monument monuments okay so or an ugly wire sign that we're now starting to see because uh the primaries are coming up but the blinking NE the blinking Neons right you know so that I believe is in another ordinance or that's something that has to be dealt with in another ordinance what types of signs that those are right yeah but you could still put um specifics into this ordinance into well I would do I'm going to take that as a takeway at least let's address the sign the the sign and I like the 12 x two I'm not married by the 18 so are there any you can you can you have the design subject to approval say that again can you put in the ordinance that they they come for approval for the sign and and the design has to be approved yeah I guess we can do that right sounds a little thir they're coming before the board so when Taco Bell was before the zoning board there was a big thing about the monument sign on the side road because there was the whole thing about the type of wood or wood looking was actually written into the code I thought resolution the but I thought it was or not even the resolution most of the signs on Valley are a lot of them are wood but I think that's actually written in somewhere and I'm I'm struggling to remember exactly what it was because there was a large there was a long discussion about the sign on that side road and also the replacement of the Bank of America sign also having to be wood or wood looking so if it was a styrofoam it had to look like wood so I believe there's actually something already written in about how the sign has to appear if it's a monument sign if it wasn't the monument sign I think that it wasn't subject to the same rules which is why I don't remember so so the action I'm taking away is one uh we're going to decide on the sign sides of the sign two action is to take a look at the wood sign variant see how that ties back to this yeah I think that the the the wood sign thing is a whole separate discussion because if you go if you drive Valley Road from uh uh pretty much from Mountain as far as uh Valley Auto 16% of the businesses have conforming signs 84% of the businesses do not have conforming signs their signs are in every case granted by variance with the site plan uh you've got it turns out that it is only the local businesses without Deep Pockets to fight the sign ordinance those are the businesses that put up conforming signs like for example the funeral home uh has a conforming sign because he can't fight it like the gas stations can the gas stations put up their big signs which do not fit the ordinance we've got to rethink the commercial signs signage the of the the Nationwide chains of gas station restaurants what so whatever and I think that's beyond that's a separate discussion from this discussion about home okay yeah I was just going to say we're getting to apples and oranges here this is a sign on a residential house it has nothing to do with the commercial signs thank you and my one minor point is I I would just keep it to two square fet as it says right in about res residence designation size not exceeding 2 square ft in area so let just keep it bit consistent I don't care if it's 18 by 18 or whatever they may so g g is the one that says 4 Square ft the one that you just referenced is e which is two square feet which is two square feet correct so I just keep it in so that's still 1 foot by two no matter how you stack two square by two and well no no no 1 by two is different to two square fet no then a 4 square foot sign that conforms to the woodl ordinance by 2 right it seems perfectly reasonable to Grant without a variance of any sort if somebody wants to put a 4ot neon sign in front of their house then they can ask for variance okay okay so what's it what's what's the decision on so yeah so can we move then to the what was this decision Tom where are you going so you want to go not exceeding two square feet yeah not see two square F feet that' be proud to see put this into edit mode all right any objections to that no do we have vote on that how do we do that no we just said we just submit to you and then it goes through well no because we have to make the changes to the ordinance it still it still has to go to the it would have to go to the board journey to yeah and then it goes to the TC and it goes through all that process right yes okay yes it goes through readings and the whole okay so the so I'm going to write notes as I talk about this next one the next one is the residential sheds uh we had a Min minor subdivision come which was a lot line adjustment uh where we had an existing shed on a property that was like I want to say 400 square ft U looking at the ordinance of residential um sheds uh maximum shed size can uh is only 100 square ft and we talked uh in that meeting in in open discussion that um we actually allow up to 200 ft before we start challenging residents uh because there is tax implications and I think Deb pointed out the UC code well in clarification we really don't if if if an applicant comes in and wants to build a 500t shed they want to call it a shed we don't tell them they can't as long as they meet the criteria of some of the other bulk requirements on the lot but that being said like Don said any UCC States anything over 200 square ft requires construction permits in addition to zoning I am passing down a picture of a 200 squ ft shed which looks like a onecar garage in fact I think it's being sold by Home Depot as a onecar garage uh but it's a shed it's legally a shed and it's 192 Square ft and according to our ordinance that could be placed 10t from your lot line whereas a garage attached to a house has to be subject to the normal side yard or rear yard setbacks and I am suggesting that anybody who wants to put a shed that big or a or a temporary garage that big 10t from the lot line uh can't get that for free he's got to come for a variance and he's got to listen to the neighbors complain here's another picture of a 200 squ ft shed this one happens to be a tent and I'm not sure tents are covered by our shed ordinance well I think you're getting into a deeper discussion about accessory structures in general because unfortunately our code under accessory structures detach garages pole barns sheds those all those things only have 10ft setbacks and they don't come with size limits if you meet impervious coverage and the zoning uh bul requirements there's nothing to stop there's nothing to say no I also think the section that applies editing these ordinances is to not make people have to come for every single thing so I I don't I respect your opinion I just don't agree I would say that if you wanted and and board attorney please correct me if I'm wrong if you want to put stricter setback rules on Accessory structures in general you would have to pick a size so if it accessory structure is over say 400 square ft because pole barns can run from 500 ft to 2,000 square feet but currently they only have a 10-ft setback I think you're absolutely correct if we had a sliding scale yes of of setbacks it might be acceptable but I'm not sure I want that in my neighbor's yard regardless of how far it is from the property line that's an awfully big structure one I don't I can't remember which town it was has lit maybe maybe not but their definition construction permit is not required for garden Type youtil S structures are 200 ft or less in area and less than 10 ft in height I thought that was interesting a height inclusion in that size cuz I think those are more than 10 ft of examples you showed so I could quite yeah I don't ever see sheds bit under 10 ft ever they usually standard is between 12 and 15 Well mine's probably about 10 and it's not it's probably 100 square ft but this looks taller than it definitely looks taller than 10t so I don't know if there's some way we can limit the height so it doesn't become a twostory 200 you know there has to be some limit somewhere and I agree with Dennis I think at least in in some other dimension standard again accessory structure across the board regardless of what it is is 20 foot height if you look at the Home Depot catalog you can find sheds that cost $77,000 but they're still sheds yeah I'm sure have power running water this shed ordinance because the shed falls under accessory structure and but it does limit it to 10 ft 10 ft high no no 10 by 10 oh wait line no 10 ft from property line 10 ft from property line from property line there's no height were you reading I'm saying somewhere else included a height limitation I think that's an interesting concept that we should consider some these sheds have like a a loft area where you can store stuff above oh yeah it's not a full 8 foot it might be six feet at the there some that are full 8 ft in my neighborhood they have people yeah and they Trail by 10 will have that little Loft section where you can store stuff up so that's they maybe should come before the boards but maybe there's some again this 10t was what I read I thought that sounded reasonable I don't know what the physical attri you know if you got 200 S foot you have to be something but depends on the pit of the roof and stuff but whatever I think height you can pick and choose what which accessory structures you want in height you could say no more than 10 you know 15 I think 10 ft could be a little low for certain sheds but I mean personally from I see is a zoning officer come across my desk but they they did specify this town sheds 10 foot they they may have I'm just saying for what I see majority are we talking right that might be 40 years old when things were 10t high you could put more specifics on a detached garage or I could have an 8ot fence wait just just for clarification because um are we talking about sheds or accessory structures or we're saying they're one and the same cuz I'm hearing they're really one and the same one the same when you call it a sh right when you call it a shed we don't really have a size limit that we don't recognize a size limit on on a shed specifically we just say anything over 200 square ft needs to have construction permits in addition and must meet the 10t side side part you outside or rear yard set back in and maximum 20 ft he 20 ft is very high I would want a 20 foot height that's a two story sh whatever height but yeah 10 foot was the example here that's way the code currently reads that's why I'm saying if you wanted to break it out by certain structures the codes you would have to add definitions the definition of a shed is this is what the board believes is a definition of a shed or a detach garage or a pole barn or a a barn for equine you know that kind of thing yeah yeah I mean would it make sense time to consider back to the sliding scale based on the side the size a certain setback yeah if it's 100 square F feet it's 10 x 10 if it's 200 square ft just for round numbers it's 20 20 F setback it's 3 if it's 300 it's 30 ft set so just throw just throw a slide scale so I can have an 8ft fence along my property line and I have to move my shed 20 feet off my property line with it has an 8ft wall on it that that yeah I don't know doesn't seem like a very good idea if you have 100 square foot you got to move it 10 feet if my yard is fenced in why can't I put it right in the corner of you yard an OT fence because they eight their walls are eight less than usually 8 feet on the shed and it's a pitch of the roof that makes the problem regardless of the fence so some says you might have to plop in the center of your yard then if that's you know what if you're looking at a big enough shed so I well some people small lot some people Big Lots right so you put what you can put back to what the goal is is Teresa mentioned we're trying to create something that's a little easier to get through the process without having to come to the boards sure um I think the the other thing to maybe soften the structure is of course using planting or screening in regards to that structure so 10 ft isn't a whole lot of room in some instances to get the planting to soft the structure from the neighborh the the problem Don is that in order to get plantings you've got to get an order from the board that requires plantings if you just make it free by right in the ordinance nobody's going to just voluntarily throw plantings in because the ordinance tells them they have to okay it's got to be part of a resolution from the board all right so for the sake of time we're going to take residential sheds off I'm going to take your feedback and come back with another proposal I wonder if you come up with like a like two or three options to choose from incidentally there is one place in town informally vot there is one place in town where you can find two violations of the shed setback ordinance back to back two people have put sheds up against the property line and because the two sheds are back to back at the property line neither one of them notices the other one you can find that on Union Street just west of uh Maine I mean let's face it if we patrolled and looked for sheds we'd be very busy wouldn't get any to work done yeah I think there's some I think there's some sheds on property lines oh there's and honestly unless it comes to me for you know something else and I noticed oh well your shed's only 2 feet off oh well that was that you know we're we're not policing for sheds unless they're coming for other zoning issues or coming for a board application so just just to Note 100 sare F feet you don't get taxed for it when you go plus 100 square F feet then you're going to get tax for it and that's the other reason that this is why people if you're putting a 200 foot shed you're going to be paying taxes on that oh I don't speak tax okay well okay I'm just telling you so all right so I'm going to park that and we'll work on uh coming back with some uh some some some suggestions all right so now fence walls and hedges um So currently um the constru construction permit shall be required for fences four feet four or more feet higher conforming to the height limits for same as set forth in this section so um this I think our construction permits say six feet is that right and that's in that's conforming with the ml or no it's UCC UCC UC so the request is change from four to six to align six requires construction so a 4ft fence we're not going to ask for a construction permit no just Z for a for a six- foot fence and greater we would no up to a six foot you can you can do a six foot without a construction 6' one 6'1 6'5 anything above six foot yes is that if you're putting a new fence or what if you're replacing a fence e either way and does that include deer fencing yes deer fencing absolutely the only time I if somebody is replacing a fence like for like and they had a previous zoning application that I we we let them do that like for like but if they're changing it moving it doing anything then they we still require his if you're just replacing the 50-year-old fence to make it look nicer in the same spot you right but if you're changing the actual material we make people get so if you go from metal to Wood right or wood to B right right we require that's understandable but if you're reping a pi metal to metal or wood to wood if you're replacing like for like okay people's feelings on so is it just changing four to six feet there's no other no other changes yeah any concerns unless it's a dog fence that's a dog which has to be some what six or 9 ft back from the property line are you talking about an invisible but it can be taller this have you reconciled this with the dog fence ordinance this looks like a boundary fence this ordinance looks like it talks about a boundary all permitted fences shall be situated on the lot in such a manner that the finished side of the fence shall face adjacent to properties no fence shall be erected of Barb Wire topped with metal spikes and all those kind of things that we get people pned in so this looks like a perimeter fence it's not a pool fence pool fences are different right treated different pool fences are handled entirely by the construction Department okay because of the pool correct yeah dog fences are not handled by the construction correct unless they're six over six feet correct there's your dog Pence courts have fencing requirements which are different there there's there's a no height restriction I don't think on tennis court fences but if you're going to construct a tennis court you can probably go into construction maybe we should pull all this together in one place I'm just fixing the four foot section okay I'm just dealing with the 4 foot section because if you put your tennis court close enough to the property line you can put a 12T fence on the property line and then you need construction permit yeah that's that's the sole issue it's just it's just for the construction permit the the limitations on height are separate and it's just anything over six you're going for construction anything over six are we comfortable with that proposal yes yeah we're talking going four to six Cor you're either getting a construction permit or you're not cool next okay all right we'll send that to you so those two now go to Dad and they go down they start that line okay great and then but the middle one takes we're going to take that back and do some work I took some notes on that M I'll do some research on the uh uh generator ordinance I don't know if that will be here we've got a couple other things that we started uh talking about I will have a meeting set up for next week we'll do a zoom uh some sort so Dave and Teresa will come together and it's fine pull some stuff together all right good but every meeting we're going to try to have one or two or or bucket of things when we can and this is the kind of conversation that we need to bring things together and thank you very much for facilitating this discussion thank you boy thank you okay uh on to just old and new business um I just really have one thing that I just want to emphasize with regards to communication with the board we had a little bit of a challenge in our last meeting and not being able to establish a quorum and I just again uh make a an Earnest request for communication and the communication in the form of when the agenda goes out uh by Friday and we're pledging working with our board professionals to ensure that we have all especially for applications any information that needs to be reviewed is to be released by Friday of the week prior uh prior to the Tuesday meeting and that you respond if you are either can make it or not make it so we need an RSVP is the bottom line uh from all the board members so that we can establish if the meeting can uh continue and a quum will be held to the best of our we understand that emergencies are going to develop we get it and is everyone comfortable what this particular Last today's meeting I sent out in the form of an invit email invitation uh as per deputy mayor lavender's uh suggestion so is everybody comfortable with that format and just saying accept how many people did not respond I no I I got ex respond including the chairman and the vice chairman never I didn't I didn't I didn't realize that's what you're doing I don't think I did on my phone and I never did it yeah I I think there were four four or five that didn't respond to the actual yeah this this is a problem that we also have on the zoning board yeah all right we have this problem on the township committee as well and part of it has to excuse me Y part of this has to do with people don't check email right emails becoming P now I have suggested texting and I understand why you know want to text but maybe what we need to do is pick up the phone and call people the Friday before the meeting and just get a verbal on that I mean that's what I do at work if I'm throwing a sales meeting I need to know that the people that are helping me run it are going to be there but this is we're having this problem in every board in town right it's not just this board so that's my two cents Dennis did you have a comment a part of the problem at the last meeting the meeting that did not have a quorum was that the agenda was actually posted on the website on Friday because I went looking for it on Friday because I had no other input but there was never a broadcast to the general mailing list of the town that the agenda was available on the website that broadcast never happened and I suspect that's a fault of the website people actually it did happen I have a copy of it and the well I didn't I didn't see it and then it was 1:00 on Tuesday that we got the board distribution of the agenda and the package and and that by that point it was too late because I didn't actually read the 1:00 email until after 5: on Tuesday so yes we need to have a discipline yes and it's if I thank you for bringing that up because it's a two-way street we're pledging to get inform out on the agenda and the materials for that meeting the following week by Friday period that seems to be about the best we're going to be able to do in some instances especially coring and getting board professional reports in and everything else on time so which also had we're pledging that back we're just asked in reciprocation that we get communication back from all you and I think I think that if we in Earnest check our email and know that something's coming in on Friday that would certainly help and and to your point it's just very simple I know where I need to be the second and fourth Tuesday and Wednesday I know that for October I know July I've got one meeting and I think the thing that was frustrating the last time is when we don't have a quorum we're paying for the professionals yeah y right for what half of the meeting and again it's not just this board it's the zoning board and and like stuff's getting backed up and people are starting to talk yeah right and we almost missed a a Township committee meeting two people didn't respond until the last minute until Scott got on the phone and started say where where are you guys going to be I missed the first meeting that I ever missed in four years this past Wednesday if I didn't make those calls we wouldn't have had a quum right okay right so so it's it's really everybody individually let's just make sure that we're proactively honest self ACCC accountability Deputy Mayor and and and the township committee gets beat up for this I don't know if you guys read Facebook but we take a lot of Guff right yeah and the board members have my C I mean emergencies happen so all you all have my cell phone number so you can text me or you have the Chairman's cell phone number you know you know God forbid emergencies you know hey something came up I'm not going to be able to make it that that's life absolutely so and please feel free you know you get credit for coming to the meeting even if it's a bit late yeah it's not it's not appropriate it's not appropriate for me as the board secretary to text you guys as board members because the uh approved method of communication for me to you is technically email but in an emergency scenario when you that I mean that's appropriate for you to send me a message or give me a call on my cell phone to say you know there's been an emergency I can't make it yeah but I think normally you do it I would do it the day before right unless it's an emergency I'd say listen out of 18 board members that I deal with there's probably only two or three that I have real issues with as far as not communicating with me but for the most part this board everybody here I think we should be all be able to respond and let you know ahead of time I don't think we need to go anything since I give you all the dates or you actually vote on the dates send you the agenda on Friday but she doesn't have to send to me yeah I just know whatever good we're enough are we good guys uh is there a motion to adjourn so motion second all in favor V on thank you e e e e e e e