##VIDEO ID:u4Yd_fpynt4## e e e e AG is catching all right Mr chairman we're on the air welcome to the Long Hill Township planning board meeting uh for September 24th 2024 may I please uh have the announcements read absolutely number one call to order and statement of compliance adequate notice of this meeting hearing has been provided by posting a copy of the public meeting and hearing dates on the municipal bulletin board and website by sending a copy to the echos Sentinel newspaper and by filing a copy with the municipal clerk number two standard board procedures any meeting or hearing conducted by the board is a quasi judicial proceeding any questions or comments may be limited to issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and decorum appropriate to a Judicial meeting or hearing must be maintained at all times number three meeting cut off announcement is made that as a matter of procedure it is the intention of the planning board not to continue any matter past 10:30 p.m. at any regular or special meeting or hearing of the board unless a motion is passed by the members then present to extend the meeting or hearing to a later specified cutof time number four electronic devices all in attendance are asked to mute cell phones or any electronic devices as to not interrupt the proceedings number five Pledge of the Pledge of Allegiance Pledge ALG to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all roll call Deputy Mayor lavender present Miss D present Mr Hans is excused this evening Mr malinowski is also excused this evening Mr Mitchell Mr opala present Mr Sandown present Vice chairman Jones presid chairman Richardson here chairman we have a quum thank you good evening everyone uh we're going to roll right into our agenda item number seven we have some meeting minutes uh to uh approve uh assuming we've had an opportunity to review the June 25th 2024 meeting minutes are there any changes modifications questions comments none from me Mr chair if there's none is there a motion to approve so moved second we're doing one batch of meetings I'm sorry one one set of minutes per right because they're yes different members attending yep June 25th all we moving June 25th okay okay uh can we have all in favor all in favor please IP okay the September 10th uh Mr chairman if I might uh uh Mr Mitchell earlier pointed out to the set the version I sent out had uh the oath of office was admit on number six the oath of office I corrected it to be Chris seski board attorney and the new appointee to be William Mitchell yeah thank you thank you for correcting that copy and paste you know classic key stroke eror no changes from my side Mr chair is there a motion approve the September 10th meeting so move second all in favor I uh I am abstaining thank you record Teresa's obain as well okay so um moving right along resolution okay so we're going to now go to the resolution this is a resolution for Robert and n application number 23- 09p and this is an extension we discussed this in the last meeting right Mr you could just summize quick fill in yeah absolutely yeah so you guys may recall our last meeting on September 10th um we voted on a uh an extension request requested by you know the applican of Robert and even nice um their attorney Fred sui had sent us a letter back in July requesting this extension and uh this we couldn't get the resolution distributed while Advan inead of the meeting so the board moved to grant their extension but not memorialize the resolution because they wanted to have a chance to review it first so that's what we're doing here so it's really just you know the only members who'd be eligible to vote on this would be those who voted to Grant the extension in the first place at the last meeting um but yeah just you know for very straightforward basic stuff it's just you know reciting the various portions of the mlul that govern extensions and summarizing the facts that they submitted the letter and you know um I did confirm with Fred zelli back on September 10th actually that they wanted the extension until November 9th so this reflects reflects that so that's about it Mr chairman just in a motion in second and I believe it would be a roll call on this one is a resolution I think we discussed we never really did find out what's going on with Morris County right all we all they told us were was that there were some sort of uh I I think I I quoted it in here um unforeseen uh negotiations or something something that of fact yeah uh remember negot extended negotiations I think that's a quote yeah okay so is there a motion to uh before before a motion uh I have a procedural question for councel sure I was not present at the September 10th meeting and this resolution is loaded with September 10th on the last page correct even though the resolution itself was postponed and I am here tonight so the question is was I absent should I be recorded as absent or should I abstain because tonight because I was absent at the last meeting Mr s I'd say you probably you're probably not eligible this particular vote well I'm eligible because I was a party to the original hearing had you been here at September 10th to vote on the granting then yes I was not then that's why you're not eligible to vote on memorializing resolution that's what's ahead of you the board's already granted the extension this is just memorializing you know as if similar as if we well why should I be eligible to memorialize it because I was a part of the hearing way back when no because you weren't here to you weren't you didn't vote on the extension it's a separate completely separate had you been here in September 10th Mr sand yes absolutely okay yeah Madam Secretary I don't know how you're going to check me on the B last page you and Teresa missil will be noted as not eligible that oh there's a yeah that's another column there's another column R of course and and the the last line above Deborah's signature which says this a true copy of the resolution adopted September 10th should that read September yes it should be good catch Mr sand thank you and above the voting Block M I suppose September 10th is correct because that's when the vote was taken to approve the extension correct and the line above that this resolution adopted on September 24th the action taken on September 10th okay willot not eligible okay so we're going to return to a motion so move second second okay Vice chairman Jones yes Deputy Mayor lavender yes Mr Mitchell uh yes Mr opala yes chairman Richardson yes motion carries okay thank you all all right uh we can now move to the application this evening just a point of clarification uh this is not an extension request is it oh another copy and paste error on my behalf no it is not it's a minor site plan application that doesn't carry over into our minut no minor site plan I'm pretty sure we have not seen this applicant please why don't you come up uh if you would yeah you're welcome to sit here why don't you both sit here we all get cozy we'll see how the microphones work it might have to be pling some musical chairs Mr chairman I'll just point out while everyone's getting ready um I did have an opportunity to review the applicant's notice for this application found it to be sufficient both in terms of its content and its timeliness of service it was sent to owners of property within 200t of the subject property back on September 9th and also published in the uh moristown daily record on September 13th 2024 uh which were both more than 10 days in advance of tonight's hearing as required by uh the ml so U with that I'll let Council make some opening remarks and then we can get everyone sworn and so please proceed thank you very much my name is Dave penella I'm an attorney in Randolph New Jersey I'm representing would you please pick up that microphone or sit down one or the other a seat so used to standing I don't want to be disrespectful but Le I guess more comfortable the reason being is we have people online and okay it's help for them to be able to hear and our worldwide television audience over your head well now I'm going to start sweating good evening my name is Dave penella I'm an attorney in Randol New Jersey I'm representing the applicant or your uh Kasi who's we all call aie uh he's a restaurant tour owns pomodoras in marst toown and has um found a beautiful building in your community at 1390 Valley Road which he fell in love with thought the price was right and has purchased it he's upgrading it and wants to make it uh a beautiful office complex uh and he's well on his way to doing that uh we are here tonight uh for a sign variance um and we will take you through that and I would ask that Mr keki be sworn in yep so we'll get uh Liz too as well you both raise your right hands for me you both swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to reviv will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I yes all right great do okay Mr Kasi what is the property location so the property location is on um on Valley Road going towards Sterling on the right side um it is a corner lot with a large parking lot and it's a professional building it's been a professional building forever I purchased it from a family that owned it for about 45 years and and um the father had the original owner had died about 15 years ago the son took it over but it has been left behind and the place looked very rundown so I'm starting to do a cleanup we did a little bit of painting around fixing the parking lot lights and uh the sign came the next issue I had a lot of tenants that um con that expressed the concern of the sign being small not being legible also okay hold up a second uh Mr Kazi uh I'd like to show you what's been marked as exhibit B tell us what this is I'm sorry when you say exhibit B you mean something that was submitted that was submitted with the application Mr pel I'm sorry was that doc ref survey was part I submitted with the application okay just making sure thank you so the sign is located on the right side of the entrance of the building um it is marked with the the sign um it is a small sign 2x5 for and I believe we have right now 11 tenants and it's just a little tag names um the sign is not accurate either because it does not fit all the tenants okay hold on one second um I'd like to ask you a couple couple questions we go although I'm sure you can I apologize that's quite right uh so I am not sure how you wanted be mark this I marked it as exhibit B it was already submitted with the application correct yes more the in advance entitled uh survey of property tax lot 9 block 11612 so it's already part in evidence it's already part of the record we don't need to note it as a separate exhibit because you've already submitted it I'm sorry you don't need me to through each one no we if you're submitting anything that hasn't already been submitted this evening no been submitted right okay so it's just part of the record some them Mr kcki I'm going to show you which uh marked as exhibit a can you describe what this is so what I did is I took my phone and I measured 10 ft and I took a a a regular picture so this this this picture was from 10 ft away and and then did the same thing I you describe the sign how does it appear to you it's it's very rundown just like the building looked in the beginning it's original yeah yeah it's very original so um it's again very unaccurate there is uh uh tenants that they're no longer there and there is missing tenants in that sign and um and this is a sign the tenants have complained to you about that's correct okay that's one of the main complaints that the tenants have been calling me for and this is a directory sign that is supposed to indicate which tenants are in the building that's correct so this is supposed to indicate which tenants the building and also supposed to indicate which Suites are the tenants occupying so when when I spoke to the Fire Marshall the Fire Marshall strongly recommended me that the sign must be upgraded and he would like to have this the tenants with the exact Suite so if in case an emergency happens he knows exactly where to go go he said that it would be also useful for the police department in case there is a a call okay I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit C uh can you tell us what this is so this is the same sign at exactly 25 ft and can can you clearly see or read the sign from that distance I do have a perfect vision I could see it I'm going to be honest but very but blury okay and uh did you also take that on exhibit d a picture of the sign from 70 ft yes this was at 70 ft and I could not read the names at all I could see that it's a sign but un like it's illegible and finally you took one at 100 ft is that correct this again a picture of the sign this is at 100 ft is right as you cross the bridge and you pretty much can barely see there is a sign in there and all the pictures just testify up to you took these pictures I did and do they accurately and fairly depict the sign from the distances stated yes put that down I I did all the all the measurement with a laser with the laser uh meter that measures the distance uh have you um gotten a proposed sign designed yes um I'm show you what's been marked is exhibit F I spoke to a uh a um a company that it's not too too far from uh from Sterling uh they proposed a more cleared sign with u very not too large compared to the original one it's almost double the size but this would be much more accurate and more visible to the traffic um is this sign 222 Square ft yes and what what is permitted by the zone 10 sare ft with 10 square ft work to adequately um alert drivers uh to um the occupants of the premises well the building fits 16 the building has 16 suits so it has an a a capacity of 16 tenants and the building is I believe it to be exact 7200 square ft and it has a sign of 10 square fet that's the current sign that's located there directory sign when you look to the left is that does that block the site distance I'm sorry I'm not understanding does that when you're looking to your left if you're driving out and the existing signs there you can see down the road can't you yes it's it does going to be any different no this will be located at the exact same spot nothing different just a slightly bigger sign so it's more V so it's more Visual and we can fit the names of the businesses I'm sorry I had to stop you guys so you said there's 16 Suites in the building right yeah are you saying there's 16 panels on the sign no this is I counted 12 this is a proposed design that's the design there there is 12 currently right now and and and and he put 12 but there is 16 suets there are a couple of these businesses that are occupying two Suites I see okay so but when we spoke with the company if you notice the bottom part right it's just with black and that would fit two different slots corre that that would fit additional Okay the reason I asked is because if if you guys want to go larger than what you're initially no it will not be larger okay just making sure because you know I understand yeah okay please proceed my apologies just wanted to clear that up is there anything you can think of which would negatively impact the building or the surrounding area by the addition the sign it will not impact anything in a bad way it would actually look make the building look nice and make the area look more presentable I have no further questions can you tell height of the current sign uh the current height of the current sign I would say is about 7 feet and did you say it is 10 square feet 10 square feet 2x5 Mr chairman yeah I what I'd like to to do just to kind of go through our usual order could we get the board professional uh Liz could you please uh start the questions and then we'll get to the board okay yes uh uh sure Mr chair um one just slight correction from what was testified to the way the ordinance measures sign area it's really just the sign itself so it's actually what you're proposing is 18 square feet because it's it doesn't include the supports okay so yeah this is the exact measurements of the sign correct so it's it's eight it's uh 72 in in height right this the sign not the not the support So in height is 72 in that's correct and then and 36 in in width that correct right so without the PSE right so it's 18 square ft not 22 and A2 okay I didn't know how which way that's fine that's fine so um that that makes it even better right denial that we got from the officer though said 22.5 oh that's what we went based that was submitted with the application okay but I I think I included in my letter the definition for how you how you do a sign area so which you did a report yes I did I've never seen that I haven't gotten anything from so you never got the report from oh that I'm sorry I thought you s that would be my fault um I have an extra copy if you take mine yeah I might need it back at some point counselor but I thank you yeah okay so it's going to become even more important to please go through your comments okay that's that's fine so um a couple of questions I had actually and if you want to sit just so but I I did um just more for um our own recordkeeping is do you have any information on the other Monument sign in terms of you know that just has the address and the name of The Office Park that will pretty much Remain the way how it is will be cleaned up and um refurbished but everything will stay existing but do you know what the square footage is of that sign I would say if on top of my head it's just a name I would say just the sign part would probably be no more than 7 Square ft okay even that is probably pushing it okay and then do you do you know the height the height is um 5 and a half feet high 5T High okay cuz I I can kind of tell from when I look at it I'm six foot tall so just to give you an idea just to be clear when you're saying it's 5T tall you're including the supports in that right with correct including support yeah it's just a strip name right not the panel that pretty and it's actually facing the road which it doesn't make sense because cars are just flying by and he's very hard to read it he's notle just let's Okay so the other um questions I had actually this kind of goes towards maybe the interpretation by the board but it would appear that this is sort of a monument sign in terms of where its location is and its size but it's listing the business businesses it's a directory sign and okay well the directory sign then you'll need more variances and so that's so I don't know if you want to say that let me just go through monent not a directory sign yeah no well no honestly actually the more you spoke and what you said the police department said to you makes me think you may need an additional sign you may need an actual directory sign closer to the building because I I don't think that you're going to be able to fit the Suites am also installing so as soon as you enter the building I'm actually installing a uh a big panel which will have also all the Suites listed on the building inside the yeah as soon as you so it it it has two doors as soon as you enter the first door on the left or right I think left side there'll there'll be a big panel which will have again all the businesses listed there because again that was one of the things that the fire marshall strongly recommended you said that's inside of the building as well correct yeah okay because um the I I'll just say that the monument signs you're you're permitted one per Street Fage so you would need a variance to provide to have two because you have the name sign you know of the of the development and then there would be this sign and you know they're located about 10 ft from the roadway um and you can have a so you can only have one so you need a variance for to um and then the you can have a maximum area of 10 square ft and you're asking for this this new one would be um what did I say 18 18t yeah um a directory sign it is smaller you're permitted to have eight square feet and but it is supposed to be in the side or rear yard or attached to the principal building and I think if I'm understanding correctly you have two different reasons you want a directory sign so that emergency services and also uh visitors who arrive at the front door know where to go but then you also have people who are driving by who you want to be able to provide um not advertising but you know this is where it is the businesses they're renting they're saying that we would like the exposure of listing or business and people driving by to be able to see it because they're like we're paying rent but yet we're in a building that you can't find it so I kind of think that there are almost two different types of signs that you need you need one to sort of in some ways advertise that the businesses are at this location and Al alert people who are coming along Valley Road that this is the location but then I think once people Park on site whether it be um you know emergency services or a visitor to one of the businesses then they would need a sign as to where to go correct right so which it will be as soon as you enter the first door correct so in my mind I would suggest that you go for two um monu call them both Monument signs even though that second Monument sign lists all of the tenants and not call considered a directory sign just because I think in this instance and in our ordinance a directory sign is is a little bit different it's more along what you're you're proposing within your building see the way the way how we we thought on doing this sign is that the top part will show the number of the building and will show the building name right and then it would list the rest of the businesses down so we kind of figured that we we're exposing the building name on the top and then we're listing the businesses it's like if you drive by the the the mall right right down the left side which the shop right whatever it's the name of the proper property and then you have all the businesses that have their sign it makes sense it it completely makes sense but I think that they're if if I'm if the board is understanding what I'm saying that they're two kind of two different types of signs you're not suggesting that they change the design they change what they're calling exactly can I just interject one thing my recollection is that when I represented Mr Kasi when he purchased it I did an oah request and there was no violation I assume that those signs were approved already by the municipality why are they there if they if there wasn't an approval and there's no notice of violation that I received it's possible that did you get any did you get any resolutions of approval when you did the oper request no I didn't get anything could have been a pre-existing not condition yeah think Mr did you have any other com one thing before I turn over to Mr Sando who has a burning question I know uh is could you just comment on the Zoning for this particular applicant and how that fits in right the surrounding area and uh this the sign variance request so it's in the O office Zone which is is very small and they're fewer they're located scattered around the township and they're getting smaller and fewer all the time um so it's it's a very limited scope in terms of where the Zone exists um and so you know and and I will say this is a corner lot with a lot of visibility and they're actually consolidating the signs into two just two on Valley Road they're not proposing anything on paic Avenue even though they are permitted um H and so I mean I think that's all I would say then there you know there's some some questions I have about the design standards that I think you know we can go through maybe after the board goes through there questions um just that there we have some design uh standards for signage and just to see I think you shouldn't have any issue complying with them so but we just want to get that information on the record just from my eyeball I didn't check the zoning map but it is residential surrounding this corner lck it is um but it's you know these signs are on Valley Road right so it's you know it's it's a fairly well-traveled roadway and um you know it's not um in a what I would call necessarily a residential neighborhood you know but yeah okay great all right Mr sand thank you Mr chair thank you Mr chairman question and and this actually is many questions rolled into one is this really truly just a vanity sign in other words the tenants would like to see their name out on Valley Road that is exactly no I I wouldn't call it a vanity sign I would call it a reasonable request by businesses to expose their business to the public for the purposes to which they're established any tenant in any business along Valley Road could make that same request my question is is there anything substantial behind this request other than satisfying the vanity of the tenants yes yes and there are multiple is there is there a contractual obligation between the owner and the tenants that the tenants will be listed on a sign like this well not not a new sign and and the reason I asked that question is because at another development on Valley Road there is a contractual requirement that the tenant be listed on the sign on Valley Road if you don't have a contract like that then what is the purpose of this sign it certainly isn't a directory sign because it doesn't tell you what room numbers are and what I would like to see incidentally I parked in the driveway on my way here and I could not read the sign from the driveway which is what 15 20 ft away uh and my eyesight is very good thank you um I couldn't read it the lettering is too small now if you put in a bigger sign with bigger lettering will it be will the lettering be readable in its entirety for a car driving 40 m an hour on Valley Road which is the speed limit in that area and if the sign isn't readable what is the value other than vanity so we hope that it is the sign company that designed it um supposedly knows about those things I would like to see some experts testimony on the size of lettering that is required uh at 40 m to be readable at 40 m an hour and then I'd like to see that lettering superimposed on a sign and see if it still fits the size that you are requesting now you've got one sign there it's got two doctors in the word Chiropractic on it on one line that's a very smooshy lettering that's that's going to be readable at 40 m hour unless the lettering is blown way up I'd like to hear expert testimony from someone who knows road signs as to whether or not these letters are actually adequate for a 40 mph roadway would you suggest for it to be bigger say it again would you suggest for the sign to be bigger because I am more than willing to do that I I I I did something like this so I don't exaggerate and I'm more within the Norms otherwise I can vote whatever sign you want well I I I I don't know that this sign is actually going to serve any useful purpose other than to clutter the highway Mr chairman can I ask yeah go ahead can I ask some questions um just a couple technical questions about the design is it double-sided it is double-sided yes okay and is it is it back lit or it will be uh I have not uh figured out exactly which way because uh there is no power line there m even though there is a light pole within 4 feet of it 5T of it so uh one of the one I spoke to the sign company they offered that they have a kind of lighting that is solar powered and it runs with batteries as well so that's the suggestion will be lighting from the bottom light up but it will not be like those strong lights that will affect the street their LEDs just to light that sign okay and you said it's going to have the address on the top that's correct it look like from the design it's got that same kind of Round Top correct so again what I was trying to do is try to keep kind of like the same and not go overboard and exaggerate is your intent to keep the other sign keep both of them or just go to One sign now that you've got I am taking the the I am taking this one off and just placing it the same I am leaving that that blue one I'm just going to refurbish it okay so you're leaving the one that says Colonial professional Park correct okay and you're it is there you're going to put the new one exactly where the old one is the exact same spot change the location okay the exact same spot okay and then how high were the letters in terms of inches I um I would say the letters I would say five inches 4 and 1/2 to 5 in E the letters um no 4 and 1/2 5 in about the exis like the existing one or yeah your new one so one one line one business how many inches per per business I don't want to say something that I'm not sure but roughly I I would say between 3 to 5 Ines I I think it's I think it's less I don't know maybe well I'll tell you why because each panel it appears to be 2 and a half inches okay uh so what so what's the what's the height then it'll be 2 Ines then what's the height of the text area the height it's 72 in in total so 72 in where the text is cor yeah you're no that's top no she's right uh it's 2.5 in for each panel and if you look at the writing I would say it would be about 2 in each letter about like that correct okay and again I would love to make it the sign bigger if you guys allow me but I just okay let's go through any other questions yeah so Liz just a technical question you said that it has to be 10 ft from the curb right so looking at the site plan it looks like the site plan line is pretty close to where the sign is now if I'm reading the dark line I yeah I put that in my my letter is I think that it is less than 10 feet now and so um I recommend that when they put in the new sign they' be conforming so if they go 10t in they're almost be at the light pole it looks like right so because or would you still measure from the pavement you you measure from the pav it's the curb line it's not the lot line and that's the outer edge of the sign has to be 10 ft right so move and there's a tree behind the sign right so if it's double-sided one of the sides we were we were planning to clean up so the the bottom of the tree it's all dead branches we're planning to clean up that tree but you you'd have to move the sign in a little bit I think to be conforming and If It Moves In off that spot you're going to have one side that's really close to the tree right or I mean if I look at this picture right here um because right now it looks like to me it's probably 6 feet from the edge couple Paces to the right is where the black top starts right so if you go another step in you've got that tree that's now at 11:00 to where you're looking at the sign so that what I'm saying is that if you put the sign back in the spot where you're talking about now you're only going to get one side of Frontage so it's kind of be counterproductive for what you're saying that you want to do my plan was to put the sign exactly where it's located right now right so to be honest is that the best position of the sign right so if you're looking for if the purpose is to allow people to know who's there and to also make it for emergency services putting it to that one side behind a tree when the fire department's going to be coming from that direction up paic a seems to be counterproductive for what you're saying it's for is what I'm trying to get at so if the sign was closer to the corner of Valley and P on the other side that would allow for if if the purpose is for emergency service but Liz if they move the sign over that way is there anything in the the codes that could cause an issue or is there a traffic issue now by putting a sign closer to the intersection that I'm not it can't go it can't obstruct a site triangle which I I I don't know that if that would right so that's what I mean is I I I think that if the purpose of the sign is X if you're putting it back in that location it'll serve the tenant purpose but it won't serve the emergency service purpose so is there another spot that wouldn't obstruct the triangle but might be a better place that you may want to consider putting it I think the only spot is is if it is like more in the corner of where it is right now just push it more closer to the so closer so moving West on Valley closer to to the driveway to the entrance to that correct that that will have more exposure and again the tree it's going to be cleaned up so it will open up more the area can I'm not can I just ask like this is the other angle of that though and you can yeah that is but that's only about 6 feet off the grass right so if the if Liz is saying that it needs to be put 10 ft it's got to go 4 feet closer to the parking lot and there's that tree that's right there but he saying he wants to go where it is now which guess you need an addition an additional variance because it's only 6 ft off of the curb line not from the property line so it'd be another variant to keep it where it is if it becomes conforming then it moves at 4 feet over behind the tree is what I'm right say makes a lot of sense well we're happy to move it uh we're not married to that site we thought that would be more acceptable to the board if it was at the same location that was the purpose of keeping it there but you rais is a good point um maybe we can move it closer to the driveway and maybe look into removing the tree can I make a suggestion I'm I'm the I'm the attorney not the engineer so this could be completely a bad idea but I'm just going to throw it out there the uh what's marked is the masonry sign the sign that's parallel with with the street that just says the business park name um you said that it doesn't really even function correctly right like it does not because it's actually facing the road and on the other side you cannot see it because there is literally trees right so with that sure with that being the case what if you got rid of that sign and put the proposed sign that you're proposing here in that location would that be a little more visible it will not it will be visible only going this way but not on the other side there because there is correct there is trees by the bridge okay we don't object to removing the other side by the way if it's an issue for the board correct and it's a violation uh your planner has indicated that um there having two signs is an issue we'll offer to remove that sign I've got before we get to that Mr Vice chair could we just get any other points of clarification to what's been testified or questions yes you do have a question before we get into State I just grabbed the first website that answered the response about size of letters and according to this website and and never trust the internet at 40 m an hour letter height should be 13 in which is a little more than a foot now if you stack 16 of those on top of one another you're going to have a sign that's 18 ft tall to be readable according to this particular standard of 13 in at 40 m an hour that's why I say I I don't know who your sign designer is or what his professional qualifications are but we need somebody who's good at sign design and traffic uh who can provide expert testimony that the size of the lettering that you have proposed actually has any value yeah I I let me jump in here I disagree with that 13 Ines if you want to find a speed limit you're going 40 mil an hour we've all been to the doctor we've all gone to a professional building like this we drive up we know the address we're going to and we want look at a sign as we get up to it understand if our dentist is in there right that's all that we're talking about here it's a vanity sign now I would go so far as to say a single-sided sign facing the road at the entrance is probably okay that's just my opinion I'm not suggesting that but you don't need 15inch letters two three inch letters that's fine because there you want to make sure you're in the right place that's it well I think it goes back though to from from what I'm hearing is the purpose of the sign to your earlier comment Mr sand what is the purpose of the sign if it's to advertise the businesses I don't think that's going to be very effective with a two to three inch you know placard so again again provide a directory of who's in the particular development yes but then I think you've got alternative locations because you're already at the site to Mr lavender's Point you're already at the site I had no trouble finding what by the way your beautiful building just using Google I totally agree I don't think anybody's going to have a problem finding your your property in fact now everybody registers their business with that and they'll probably be able to find their business at that location as well so um I you know the signage is a little bit it's it's a trick issue in regards to what you're really trying to achieve and I just want to for this board's sake have a better understanding of what we're truly trying to do you've got you know EMT you've got potential vanity or advertising and you've got a director lots of different things going on here so you know I was just taking whatever was existing and trying to make it better to bring it up to date with the building pretty much the building was really falling apart like I had to do roof parking lot clean you've done a wonderful job the parking lot trying to make it look nice looks beautiful the building looks fantastic we're just trying to come up with a way to comport with correct our ordinance and this was brought up can can I make kind of a comment like I guess I'm on the same page as some of you I think but I I I actually think what's there now is quite unattractive and that a new sign would be a good thing so it's I'm more trying to figure out not as much what's your purpose but what our problem is whether it's that it's too big is that what we're concerned about is whether it's too big because I don't know that well I don't know that I'm as concerned with what their purpose is because I don't need to solve for his business issues I just trying to figure out whether I think it's a good size or not so yeah I agree I think like I think just also there's two signs there already and so what we're asking him to do is actually change something that's already existing so I personally to make this quick my comment quick I think a new sign where it is would be lovely maybe a little smaller might be nice but I I actually think a new sign that I was going to ask if you would be opposed to like a wooden sign with just a landscape lighting which might be what you're actually describing that's what this is exactly yeah it's a wooden sign that would be much nicer than what's there now yeah it's again it's very clean wooden sign with some you know some lights in the bottom and that's it it's the the way how again they they did bold letters so again try to make it as more visual as possible not to have it super maxed up size and then have you guys put in a spot to be denied so we Tred to come up with something that is more reasonable so I guess I'm just trying to streamline what we what our actual concern is versus what their business purpose is I'm on the same page with you yeah and I think that's a very good comment Teresa in regards to that particular issue are there any other comments I'd just like to point out that there are only five Office Buildings in town and although this is the largest of the office buildings that I'm aware of although I'm not sure about that um and the fire companies know where these five uh buildings are the first aid Squad knows where these buildings are I don't think this sign in any size is going to help fire and first aid locate a tenant who says his address is 139 Valley Road uh I think that's a spirous argument and I certainly would not consider it as a part of in that that we're going to help the fire in first aid in the slightest there are a lot of other signs in town that would be required that would be more helpful to fire in first aid than this one everybody knows where Colonial Park is and there are like I said there are only five Office Buildings in town and uh how hard is it to for a fire company to find it an office building Especially since one of the fire companies is right down the block from you Mr Jones yeah so you're probably not going to like what I'm going to have to say but I'm not in favor of the sign um I've ridden by there on my bike I've never seen that sign it doesn't stick out to me I'd rather see that directory in the building when people walk in to see it I'd rather you take the other sign that has the address turn it on its side create a 45 out of it so that way you can see it coming from both directions I would I would be I would be more in favor of something like that yeah but I I I don't I go buy at 40 miles an hour I go buy it 20 miles an hour on my bike I'm not seeing that and I'm right up against that curb as I go riding on that line you don't see the existence I don't see I don't see it right past it so that makes it even worse again for for a building for an office building either you're not changing it you're not your Height's not going to be all that different the size font of the of the writing that's going in there as condensed as it may be or as wide as it may be depending on who your um uh uh uh commercial properties that are in there not going to see it and I guess my other concern is this someone's going to slow down on that portion of the road to try to read the sign to see if their dentist or whatever Professionals in there they're going to slow down before they turn in maybe that sign would be better served on the other side of the driveway as they can pull into the driveway and then see the sign where where where the vanity is right maybe that's a better option Maybe that sign needs to be further in on the on the on the parking lot um I mean where the masonary sign is where the masonary sign is across where your finger is is driveway right right where your finger is a masonary sign but to the right of where your finger is there's some looks like some grass before you get this from Shrubbery there you could probably put a lower sign you don't have to have it 7 feet maybe it's at 4 feet two columns sign you know list list you're only doing one side more parallel to the ground rather than up and you're only doing one side of the sign you're not doing two sides of the sign not what they're leave what it is want a sign that big there no or you just think it's not going to serve the purpose I don't think it serves the purpose you don't see it at 40 miles hour I like I said on my bike I don't see it so let me ask you a question again um and again it's my first time doing this so if I say something wrong please apologize I I apologize so I apologize was going to say so no no no no no please I I I respect your your response um so you're saying that so it's an office building MH it's commercial MH paid a ton of taxes for it MH and you're saying that I should not have the right to expose that commercial building with a signage just like every other businesses on Valley Road that has massive signage I'm just I'm I'm just saying are are you sugges that as sign it should not be needed for this commercial property so you have a sign that calls out the office complex you have an office complex Professional Building you have that sign already established the Masonite sign it's facing the road and it's not visual I know and I that's why I said turn it to 45 you got two going then you have a wedge someone coming West someone coming east they're going to see that sign we'll see that sign don't leave it flat toat that gets to the earlier comment about a monument sign it's a monument sign already there is one that's the one I'm talking about but I'm not talking about putting names I'm not talking about putting names on there not talking about commercial on there you're saying this is the office complex Mr someone says I got a dentist in that office complex I see the sign for office complex oh that's my office complex and correct by the current tenants that I have they have leases and everything they've been there for years and they have a sign they have a name on that okay and I cannot take their name down because I have a contract with them I I I inherited leases and tenants when I purchased that building I have still the same tenants so he asked the question I think he asked a question Dennis earlier Dennis sorry Dennis asked the question are you contractually obl obligated with your tenants to have a a sign like this with their name with their with their company's name out there on the street yeah I said I have to review the contract okay I mean I have to review the contract but but as far as I remember speaking to the gentleman that sold me the property I remember him mentioning that uh they paid for actually having actually believe it or not this sign was refurbished not long ago based from him and apparently the tenants paid for okay which I don't know what how much they paid for but it's a it's like made I'm not saying that they don't have a right no no I understand you're the owner of the property you can do what you want with the property right I was just trying to again like I took this this design from another office building in Morristown my daughter goes to assumption school so right across with the assumption school there is a beautiful property that has five six offices they're mainly low firm stuff like that and they have the same exact sign and that's how I was my wife actually went to that property and asked them who did your sign it looked very nice I was across the street from where the school is which I would say I was about 60 70 feet away and I could clearly read every single name and that's how and we literally measure that sign and this is exactly that sign the the company they just took these names just to give you an example but these names will be re written properly and will have at the end the sweet number so from my point of view if you have five or six it probably makes more sense but a lot of times those signs don't have trees around them either so they're usually more open on like a masonary footing or something along those lines right behind you right so having 16 of them kind of goes back to Mr Sandow's point that you only have two to three inches per name so when you're driving by quickly you don't really get that same exposure that you need right so like I think that the fact that you're putting the the directory sign inside but also I think it could be something where you just have the name of the park unless going back to the question are do you have to list well the the way how the building the way how I would prefer for the future of that building to be is not have 16 tenants and not have 12 tenants I would prefer to have and I think that's what's going to be the future of that building of having uh two three main businesses that will have enough space on on a similar 18 square feet sign to expose their business that's what that's what's going to probably be the future of it or at least that's what I would prefer that's why I kind of like that sign on the east side of the driveway but you cannot read it from the other side so just at all yeah go ahead so just so if you have so Liz when we approve the sign do we approve the spaces on to the sign or are we just approving the size of the sign right so there's 16 or 14 slots on there right and if the future there's only three tenants it doesn't make sense to have 11 blank slots right are we saying that the font on there has to be a certain height or can we approve that it's a bigger height than what's currently being proposed you could impose it as a condition sorry to yeah no go ahead yeah yeah what I if you just take it as it is let's just say for this sake of example we're going to consider this a monument sign um in which case they need a variance to permit a number two sign two Monument signs and then one sign to be the panel to be 18 sare ft right that's all your those are the parameters they have to work with him if you felt that as a it might be a possible condition of approval that you know this the text be a certain size um obviously would have to relate to the deviations from the ordinance which I think you know there an argument to be made for that um then you could kind of get into the granular aspects of regul the size of the fun but you know just think if we're not opposed like to consolidation of these units in the future that need to come back again but but does he is kind of my question right right right right so I'm trying to avoid them having to come back if if your plan in the future is to go from 12 to 3 it doesn't make sense to come back and have to get a secondary approval is what I was trying it's a flexible building so it can like you can have a tenant that can have six suets right like currently right now uh there is for example one tenant that has three Suites which is awakeness Wellness um they have another tenants that have two suets so again preferably I would like to have three four main tenants and like for example I have one tenant that is moving out at the end of this month why because he's saying there's not enough business I'm trying to save commercial space that lately is dying and I'm trying to make it as best as possible we have commercial space in the area that we have them vacant and falling apart and really not looking nice so again I'm was just trying to figure out the best way of making it look better well maybe what we can do is use this time to just I think you've gotten some opinions expressed to you uh by the board here uh I want this time to be productive for you by the way welcome to the community thank you great that you're uh here uh with a business that you're trying to improve and and working with your tenants and so forth um but we do want to make sure you have this time is being constructed I don't know just hearing the board if we're all on the same page I'm still a little unclear as to what your application is and constitutes and where things are positioned I am concerned about sight lines uh I I do feel that the sign is the current sign with the directory is too close to the road based on walking that area uh and I think anything closer to the road is going to impinge even more on any sight lines with people trying to get out of that drive onto a busy you know in a street where people could be going 40 miles on hour uh so um you know I i' heard uh good alternative I do agree with uh board member who mentioned that an improvement is necessary in the signs I think we're not we're not saying you can't have a sign that's not our intent at all it's just how can we come up with the best uh approach okay and so you've heard I think a couple of different I don't know if there any other opinions as to or suggestions uh for this applicant uh or if you want to try to clarify for the board with a proposal tonight I just don't I I don't get the sense that you're we're all on the same page with your proposal um Mr chairman could I hop in real quick I just for applicant seek um you know the board I can't speak for the board on their attorney but I they might be open to you know granting continuance letting you guys come back in a month if you want to go back to the drawing board it sounds like there might even be somee where we're at we're going to have to come back yeah don't you think so might be a good idea to look at that LE get as well consensus tonight no I get it that's fine I think you should you should uh find a sign maker who can design a sign for you that doesn't have as much white space in it if you take a look at the picture of the proposed sign not only is the text small but at the end of each one of the strips there's a lot of white space and you're wasting a lot of time or a lot of space on your sign with Blain weight somehow or other those entries should be rearranged so that they fill the available space instead of wasting it with white space shorter names and longer names should be organized in such a way that you don't waste a lot of acreage with white and a a a a different sign maker uh who also knows the rules about uh size versus speed uh may be of value to you at this point again this was just an example this is not the final um Design This was an example that the Sign Company sent us for a quote that's that's I mean the names will have to be rearranged will have to be I will have to ask each tenant one more time how would you like the name to be presented and and also on that some of that white space that you mentioned there will be the sweet number the sweet number and letters be now two short names should could be next to each other instead of being on top of each other with white space on both sides I don't think you're going to get this application approved by having a directory sign like that I'm just this is my opinion I'm going to express to you is I think that type of sign on a roadway is really challenging and I would encourage you to look at some of the other signs there's a off a professional building right here in Gillette or just the next next little town over as you go east on Valley before you get to Mountain Avenue 689 Valley Road that's a comparable property to what you have exactly very similar I actually have a photo that I can share with you tonight of that I took a photo to look and compare that yes to compare that to what your proposing now they have a lot fewer tenants but I think that it serves the purpose to get somebody to that location and then there are directories at the building it's a pretty big S um yeah 689 Valley Road that's where Dr lorino is just to be when you're saying this that's a uh a what is it a screenshot of Google just yeah that's Google Maps for the record okay so Google Maps street view of of right totally okay to change the design that's bigger by the way than what we're proposing I would love that and and by the way we're not adverse to again I just Don I think that's I I don't know I just to give them a fair opinion I I think I'm having a hard time understanding what everyone's different opinions are I think it might help them to understand that's what I was trying to say before is it the size that we're that we're concerned about or is it that we're concerned about the purpose the sign is going to serve just because my understanding is and I don't want to speak for you is that you were actually just trying to mimic what's there correct that's exactly so I just want to make sure what we're saying to them is clear by show of hands Mr chairman don't mind me asking does anyone have a problem with the size of the sign that they're proposing okay can I suggest actually one of the things that you think about is maybe consolidating the signage so you have this Monument sign right now that has the address and then you have the directory sign and so I think if you look at the sample that was um just suggested to you well first of all it is perpendicular to the roadway which I think is probably more effective for what you want but it also combines them both and I think that might alleviate some of the concern about size because you'll be decluttering the signage if that means if you if that makes any sense you'll have fewer signs so you may have to go bigger than what you're proposing but maybe the the arent can be made that yep so then what I'll do is that I'll go to the Sign Company I'll I'll have them redesign a new sign with slightly bigger by consolidating both signs I'll propose to remove the other one because it's unnecessary so that way there is one sign that will have the main building name and the directory under similar to what you go take a look at yeah that's perfect that's perfectly fine I like that approach again I I want to just do whatever it makes sense was very good too we'll have to check that out but it's probably a little bit lower to the ground and it it may have in terms of what Mr Sandell started this whole conversation and he's right is that it's hard to read going you know you're not going to get people at 50 miles an hour being like oh wait a minute there it is but I think it does give your tenants a certain visibility um to passer by which I guess maybe is what the point is okay and to reduce the number of signs I think that that's what I hear I I think would be I mean as of right now I can really reduce it to I believe seven or eight tenants and I'm comfortable doing that talk about reducing you have two signs totally agree it does not make sense to have the other one so maybe combine them both just for calibration if I can uh about 10 years ago there we identified a bunch of businesses which were off the main streets they were on side streets and we started a process of trying to put signs on the Main Street pointing off to a barber shop or a dentist who was on a side street uh there weren't very many fewer than 10 and in fact as time has gone by that shrunk and I think we could only identify about two or three right now that are left in town that would require the sign but the principal reason that it dragged out and ultimately died was there was a sentiment amongst the commenters in the town and amongst the township committee that we already had too many signs and so to uh to approve a sign that specifically lists your 10 ten ANS who are on the main street with a main uh street address uh Valley Road as opposed to being on a side street to give them prominent display when we won't give the merchants who are off on the side streets a prominent display uh that's that doesn't sit well with with me because of the need to reduce the number of signs in town rather than increase them yeah so okay so um unless there's any other comments I'm going to help us move along here y okay okay and again I thank you thank you for your Pati we look forward to seeing you again okay do we want to continue this hearing or start again was just that y Mr sand stole my thunder Mr chairman to you as far as what now okay so I would petition to carry this to the next meeting with the with the provisor we do not have to Ren notice okay I everyone's stealing my thunder tonight guys come on let me do my job U actually Mr chairman before but I have to do all before I go any further um just real quick I just want to know if there's no members of the public who want to ask questions or have kind any comments or anything they'd have an opportunity the next heing anyway um Deb when's the next available meeting day for them well the next available meeting is in two weeks is that enough time for the applicant I mean that doesn't give us a 10day I'll getov I would suggest four weeks from now which would be uh October 22nd okay October 22nd 22 is that okay with you counselor yes okay all right just one last thing I just suggest that you well you you'll have my letter now but just look at the signage regulations and see just make sure in terms of lighting in terms of materials that you can comply yes okay thank you very much real quick let me just make the announcement this matter is going to be carried to October 22nd 2024 73 Motion in a second all right we I'm now I'm stealing their fund stealing from each other in order to carry it with no further notice required by the applicant so moved second all in favor I any oppos good okay now I'll make the announcement this matter is going to be carried to October 22nd 2024 7:30 p.m. here in the municipal building same place uh no further notice either by mail or by uh personal service or by publication will be required councelor thank you very much appreciate it thank you you've got a real opportunity to make a nice sign these are not not nice signs I'm telling you right now okay just no this is this is the this is the back and forth thank you again thank you very much take care all right okay uh on to uh item number 10 anything to update on ordinance review Mr Jones at this time yeah thank you Mr chair uh no I cancelled uh last week's uh ordinance review meeting due to a personal matter uh that I needed to attend to uh but the the committee has had several conversations around uh setbacks with regards to uh the Valley Road District uh discussions around uh house of worship um we've also talked about uh ground floor apartments and what we could do there we're also talking about the new Zone the the rezonings that have been done when I say resoning a name changes so like uh Sterling Village is now uh is no longer I think B15 I think was the B15 yeah um so we're looking at that we're looking at miltin Village we're looking at all the different uh areas where we Chang in the master plan the the names of these zones we've also done an analysis to try and find figure out where these uh appear in ordinances so we can do you know the breadcrumbs of trying to make sure we touch here we we Cascade it out uh so that's the work that we're we're currently involved D in um nothing new has come to us other than um was it sheds there still a discussion sheds is still a discussion so we've not uh resolved that matter uh so I will uh have a meeting with uh Miss D and Mr what are we we have these two like grafts yeah I'll take that Mr Tom want to so so that so that's the book of work that we've got currently in Flight uh and hopefully we'll be able to bring some of those those matters to uh to the next meeting but we'll have a meeting uh a week from today uh we will invite Liz to that meeting that way we can talk about um the question too of the sheds I did speak with uh board attorney uh Mr Vu about his feelings on impervious coverage in ch he's stealing your thunder every still what am I hear no so uh uh we may consider wanting uh Joe V to come to the next meeting as well if we're going to be talking about sheds okay okay thank you I gotta remember how to say com absolutely it's just a goal that if we update one ordinance for one purpose we want to make sure that any part of that ordinance that could also be changed will be changed just taking a little bit of we understand spaghetti so so there's been an example of that at our last meeting when we were talking about the height of the fence and then they were talking about retaining walls and we had not discussed that so and those were both in the same ordinance so to your point yes but we can't talk about it if we're talking about one piece and then all a sudden we're digging up something that we hadn't addressed yet it's only going toin I don't know that there's a perfect but just to for awareness we can yes thank you for that okay all right real all right real quick I'm I'm not going to take up too much of your guys time so um you guys remember at our last meeting we were uh had voted on we were going to ship out the uh the home office sign and then the uh fence ordinance updates right so as I was going back and editing them I realized that like first off with the uh the fence ordinances that first statement of purpose section up there as it previously read it was very wordy and it just looked like I wasn't it it read very poorly and I thought it would be kind of crappy to send that to the township committee reading the way it did um also with the uh the sign ordinance we we did make that additional change to um was it subsection B uh to add um to to note that those regulations concerning Flags emblems or insignias wouldn't you know apply to home office uses so I had to go back and I should have mentioned this at the last meeting but I needed to go revise the whereas Clauses in the beginning of that document to reflect that we're also proposing that change as well so I just made the long and short of it is I made a couple changes to these that were very they're non-substantive they don't know it doesn't affect what we're suggesting of the township committee it was just you know cleaning up the we as language but I didn't feel comfortable shipping that off to the township committee without first showing the board because I don't want you guys to see and be like where we didn't vote on this what is this you know what I mean so yeah so that's where we are um I guess just if you guys are okay with on the fence one yeah go ahead question Mr sand yes no I have a comment on that was me sorry well both of you guys go ahead yeah so second second whereas blah blah blah construction permits are not to be required for fences that are 6 feet or less that's uniform construction code correct yeah I'm sorry what you're referring to the fence one yes uh second second second yeah are six feet or less than height six feet or less now it lets go down to 1541 fences walls and hedges B Construction permits shall be required for fences six feet or more in height right did we really mean to say for fences that exceed 6 feet yes yeah oh I see what you're saying yeah okay yeah it's got to be a little bit over yeah just say exceeds six feet in height for fenes that exceed six feet correct thank you well good thing we brought this back then good catch six feet yes please Mr San yeah um on on the fence ordinance on page two paragraph Delta 5 yes the last sentence mhm this is a keeper from an old ordinance and I think this is a good opportunity as long as we're looking at this ordinance it's a good opportunity to take this out the township engineer has no way to determine the status of a paper Street for the purpose of administering this section the township engineer is a contractor I have great respect for the man as an individual I'm sorry am I interrupting you Tom no I saying that we were talking about it last time uh and and I would suggest that you PLL the Town Administrator as well as members of the township committee to find out if the township engineer is the reasonable party uh to make a determination that a paper Street will never be developed now last December or maybe November the township committee uh had an ordinance to vacate some paper streets and I did account for them and I come up with 95 paper streets in town how many of them are ever going to be converted or upgraded to PVE rights of Weights probably none uh but the other hand the township committee has now taken 10 months and has although they promised back in November December to deal with this problem they haven't dealt with it we still got n over 90 paper streets that probably most of them should be vacated uh and then this would problem would go away uh or at least we should identify as a matter of public policy which paper streets are going to be upgraded but I don't think we should leave it to the township engineer uh to make a decision that affects the decisionmaking strategy of the planning board are you recommending that the sentence be struck I'm recommending that the ordinance committee do some real research and find out who amongst us all including the township committee and all the township employees and contractors who if a decision has to be made if there is an option for an applicant who should make the decision that controls the applicant's options and and it's probably not the township engineer maybe it's a sense of the board itself should control here unfortunately you can't do an application based on the sense of the board if you haven't heard the sense of the board because they haven't seen the application and that's a chicken and egg problem uh a little more thought has to go into this I think that um Mr sand thanks for your comments uh but with the bigger issue is what are we doing with the paper streets are we going to vacate them are we going to vacate some of them are we not going to do anything with them and if we tackled that problem that will address this problem you need to survey the township committee members because it's ultimately their decision as to whether they move forward on doing something about these 95 or whether they leave it buried where it has been buried since last November so then my comment still my comment rests I know we I remember we we discussed this a lot at the last meeting I can't yes we did I can't recall why it was exactly we were talking about Corner lots and streets that's how that conversation came up right I think the ultimate determination was to keep it the language in correct right we have one paper Street in town that is 140 ft long that's shorter than the length of this room and yet it makes the two properties on both sides of that 140t paper Street it makes both of them Corner lots and and that's a real awkward situation uh we have a situation where uh when a develop Vel oper puts in a street the property next to the developed developed lot might become a corner lot subject to all the corner lot rules depending on where the developer places the street in his development because he you he can put a Street next to a lot that's that's fully built out and all of a sudden that lot is a paper Street and it violates a whole bunch of things uh in terms of setback uh and we we need to we need to be very careful how we address paper streets in the ordinance and as long as this ordinance is up for review this is probably the trigger for fixing so can I can I make a suggestion then um I would suggest since we did deliberate this in the last meeting which I don't know if you were in attendance he was not uh Mr sand I would still suggest suggest I think with the board's consensus that we push this to the township committee it it can I make a can I make a comment yeah because we've talked about the paper streets when we went through this exercise and looked it was it really a good use of the Township's time to clean up problems on 90 streets where there's no compelling event causing us to do anything and so the policy that we talked about in the conversation with Jack pigeon our Township attorney is that we would deal with these things as a compelling event came up and recently we did that up on Long Hill Road as I'm sure you're aware the sale of two properties um so if you want to be clearer in the language on this sentence here you know maybe maybe you can say something that waves a little bit towards you know the township engineer in conjunction with the township attorney determine if there's a compelling event that would change the status of the paper Street blah blah blah blah blah many of these things are out in the middle of wetlands they're not going anywhere and we Tom how many ordinances do we need to do for this master plan about 50 about 50 right do you really want to work on 90 paper streets no not individually no no no as a compelling event comes up and we need to take action let's deal with them then if you want to clean up this language and I agree it's a little bit ambiguous because what does it mean determine the status right town ship engineer shall Township engineer shall research and determine the status whether a compelling event exists for a paper Street blah blah blah I don't know right M but you know just fix that line and we'll move on yeah we got work to do understood that's what we're trying to do if I recall the uh the the impetus behind this was just cleaning up subsection B just for the uh to make it consistent with the UCC that was the initial that is correct right and and and and to Miss D's point this is where we had get an opportunity to maybe do some other work in here as well which doesn't always come to light when we're working on a particular piece right so is the takeaway here that we're going to take that last sentence and and modify to say the township engineer uh and the um Township attorney or Township committee Scott is it is it one and the same if I say Township committee the attorney is already there or is it best to call out the township attorney I I'd have to think about that um the township committee needs to appoint a paper Street steering committee no we don't no we don't steering advisory committee I will could I make a suggestion we could the board could could send this off to the township committee as is but maybe include like a note or a letter in the in the doc do that let's do that says hey this is something to look at okay we'll give them some work today too entirely too much joking going on right right I think that's something more you know within their perview anyway anything else in regards to ordinance review oh real quick so everyone's okay with we're going to change B in that subsection just to say uh construction permits shall be required for uh r one fences that exceed 6 feet in height yep right okay and we're going to leave the warehouse language as it was and everyone's cool with my change to that first paragraph on the uh residential home office signed ordinance right okay all right great all right so I'll finalize the other one send it to Deb I'm going to do it tomorrow and we can ship it off to C committee um we could talk about about a note kind of summarizing the the conversation something up okay all right cool all right sweet thank there's one last piece if anyone sees any um ordinance that should be uh reviewed uh I have circulated the template just fill out the template um as best as possible so that way we can add it to our book of work thank you thank you Mr okay uh on to item number 11 any old or new business before the board I still need to reach out to prison okay proning okay um with that is there a motion to so moved second all in favor I thank you e e e