##VIDEO ID:fqzKNWcXPM0## e e e e e e e e e e e e e that's fine okay we're on there okay the Zoning Board of adjustment regular meeting hearing agenda for August 20th 2024 we're starting the meeting at 7:36 call to order and statement of compliance adequate notice of this meeting hearing has been provided by posting a copy of the public meeting / hearing dates on the municipal bulletin board and website by sending a copy to the EO Sentinel and Courier News newspapers and by filing a copy with theal clerk standard board procedures any hearing conducted by the board is a quasi judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and decorum appropriate to a Judicial hearing must be maintained at all times meeting cut off announcement is made that as a matter of procedure it is the atttention of the zoning Board of adjustment not to continue any matter past 10:30 p.m. at any regular or special meeting SL hearing of the board unless a motion is passed by the members then present to extend the meeting SL hearing to a later specified cutoff time electronic devices all in attendants are asked to mute their cell phones or electronic devices as to not interrupt the proceeding Pledge of Allegiance Tom would you lead us please pled allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice for all thank you Mo call take yes Mr ronio here miss Brennan Miss Brennan is excused tonight Mr gakis here sorry I'm late mrle is excused tonight Mr Rosenberg here Mr Watts is excused tonight miss Collins here Vice chairman grov here chairman GRE here we have a quum and our attorney is here all right uh good now first thing we have to do we don't have the meeting minutes right no I'm having up a video so we'll move them uh till next meeting but we do have to to move to carry an application we have to vote to carry it it's uh use variance block 10104 l 5.01 in zone r-2 300 South Northfield Road application number 24 -10 Z Teresa Gallow applicant proposes to convert a previously approved senior Suite excuse me to a two family SL family slother daughter Suite um it's going to be carried to September 3rd 2024 without prior notice right without digital notice or do you want to explain you want me to uh yeah you can explain because you know the situation okay go ahead so basically we had had two applicants uh scheduled for tonight's meeting and unfortunately the echo Sentinel uh forgot to put both notices not just one but two in the paper when they were supposed to so unfortunately so the second application that's not listed tonight that applicant did not send out any notices to the 200 foot list uh Teresa Gallow who is listed tonight she did send out list to the 200 foot list so all she has to do is put the not the the newspaper notice correct which is why we're carrying on record so she doesn't have to resend the the 200 200 notice she just have to put the notice so all those people within the 200 ft you have now been noticed that uh upon a motion by the board do I hear a motion to carry this to September 3rd 2024 I'll move it second okay all in favor I okay it's moved now we have board discussions of bylaws did everyone get copies emailed to them of our original 2015 a version of the township of Branchburg and also a version that our uh uh attorney put together kind of putting both in the same and and getting rid of some duplicate language did anybody have at least a chance to glance at those yeah okay now these were sent prior to they were sent on July 1st yes they were sent a while ago uh Mr flatly uh uh very studiously uh studiously uh went over all of them and had some questions some account did you see this was I I don't know if you not yeah uh but without taking some of his I mean let me put it this way who was the land youth secretary and who is the administrator I think that's pretty obvious I I think he was just asking that because he doesn't know the titles that you held so uh but anyway um there's um would you explain how you did this version so that everybody knows the cross outs and the additions and things absolutely Mr chairman so yeah okay so there there's four different documents here right I just want to identify each of them to explain so the first one is the obviously the old bylaws we have you know it says Township of long hill on the front adopted April 7th 2015 those are the boards old bys um the second document it says rules of the branch for or I'm Sorry rules of the board of adjustment of the township of Branchburg 2024 these are the uh kind of the template quote unquote bylaws that my firm uses for pretty much all of our points right then we have the that's the Branchburg one correct says Branchburg at the top on on the second line just to to identify things um then there's the other two documents there's a clean version and a marked up version um both are essentially the same thing um but there's a marked up version so you can see where the changes were made but anyway what you I'm just going to refer to this as the non-marked up version it says rules of the uh Board of adjustment of the township of Longhill -202 right so this document was created using the template document as the base and then what I did was fill in Parts fill in gaps basically between that one and the old this board the old version of this board's bylaws right so I took what was in the old version of this boards bylaws plugged it into the Branchburg template version and that's how you got the you know the new 2024 proposed rules in front of you right and then just to kind of sort of explain like how the changes were made I you know provided a marked up version too so you guys can see what was plugged in was taken out hopefully it makes sense I know there's a lot of pages here to kind of sift through but we got longer grew legs yeah so there might be too much in there I you know I ER on the side of just including everything and if you guys want to pull things out it's easier to do that as opposed to you know the other way around but that's it in nutshell you know very a lot of it's very standard stuff the um you know obviously establish who the officers are who the zoning planning zoning administrator is what are the things that I found interesting should we be looking at this version you can look at either version that there's either they're both the same yeah oh they are okay right that one just has like old tell you we have to change right right one thing that um that I noticed that um Mr flatly brought up which I thought was a good point on page 18 of the clean one that says 2024 uh paragraph 2 col 4-1 he said discussion shall be based upon any facts shall no disc decision shall be based on any facts not proved he brought up a good point the word fact in his mind meant that it was a fact and it didn't so maybe any evidence not proved on matters which are not on the record um any I I me instead of using the word it's like a double negative sort of well no the opposite of that yeah I mean double positive facts redundant redundant facts almost impli that it's true redundant uh yeah so however the board's decision shall be based shall no decision shall be based upon any information not proved or any evidence not proved or which are not on the record unless they be switch items or on matters which are not on the record yeah instead he using the word facts maybe change that to yeah what that sentence is trying to say that the board can only render a decision based on the evidence that submitted before can't just specula yeah maybe that's I have to go back and watch the tape because that's what we're going to plug in there instead um any evidence any any information not proved yes you choose the wi information so because that's what it is basically if it's not proved it's just information information okay it's not fact it's just information yeah so um that takes that little picadillo out of there okay um yeah he really did take a lot of time to look through this I I I refer to it the I call it the red line version but there's no red line in it um so there's two red the the the redline version yeah I guess oh must be some compatibility formatting ISU it's red on the one I had it's blue and purple I guess on ours yeah you know I had started when I started working on this canotes that two people worked on it I guess but no actually it's just one person two well two different programs so I started working on this in uh Google Docs because I don't have a access to word on my home laptop then I saved the file started working out in my office computer through word so that's why you have two different but it assumes you're two different people that's probably why it was doing that right I I suppose yeah that's usually so like under the Planning and Zoning administrator what page on page two and to three it appears that this is an entirely like when I read this first I like does this mean that you just created a new section that was not in the old document one one1 1-7 mhm but it is essentially the exact same thing that is in the I I was just looking I didn't in the old bylaws yes in the old bylaws this is essentially the same thing exactly so I guess I'm wondering why it's been why it looks like it's redlined on my copy at least and it looks as if it was added but you're saying obviously it's not no so all right let me let me yeah where is it see this this is the the Branchburg ones these are what I use as a template I plugged in language from this one into to this okay so that language it's not that it was deleted from this it was added to so the template that we're looking the the actual document here anything that's just in black is actually from the blanch the Branchburg correct and anything that's in here is actually just taken from the 2015 version and plugged into here and that's why it looks like it's new where it is not really new it's actually just and the only thing that's really changed is if there's something that's essentially just P crossed off and such as under secretary right that that is something that was completely removed or it was moved to another part of the document for you know organization um we brought up something here it goes we don't have confusing when I read this or at least not that must be yeah that's a hold over from and we also we also don't run by Robert's Rules which is also on page one right one the CH chairperson uh shall be Robert's Rules right Deb we don't use Robert's Rules no the planning board does be a member and uh yeah we don't okay because you have have uh basically voted a set of rules for the board well you didn't but in 2015 these bylaws 1.14 we didn't even use uh Roberts prior to that we just no we didn't we just no rules here we go it's not there are no rules it's that we we really didn't have a need for rules right I mean well in 2015 someone more like the rules of a court basically we thunder so I on one call on 1-4 chairperson I'll I'll knock off everything from the chair person shall be a member and shall decide all points just take out regly appointed as opposed to alternate well hold on what oh I'm sorry I thought it was in PE a regular member yeah the chairman shall be a member and regular member because we're calling them regular and Alternate not class for yeah yeah shall be a regular member and shall decide All Points of order matters etc etc okay and the same thing with the vice chairman shall be regular right a good catch on that one instead of rocking instead of Robert's Rules you might want to whatever this is called rules of the board or this document yeah subject to these rules right sub to within rules same thing with the vice chair secretary um Deb your your title is Bo correct so secretary would be improper well the thing is there's two different this is my understanding of it there's two different offices that that is secretary and is also planning and zoning secret or planning plan and Zoning coordinator correct right right is it coordinator or administrator it's coordinator it's you can't there's a separate certification for what they call land use administrator which I've been fighting with ruers for years to try to get because they canceled the program about five years ago so basically you can't get it pretty much they're they're coming up with a new program and when the hell they going to do that oh oh trust meell cuz I just re redid my certificates this year to change administrator to coordinator correct so until such time you have an administrator yes right and being that technically Dev is two people in a sense you know I heard that about her she has split person out um yeah being as that that's the case that's Ed we were talking about this earlier that's why I think there's references to secretary administrator throughout so do you want to are we going to change administrator throughout or is that going to be we could change it to uh I'll make that as a general note change to to to coordinator zoning coord or administrator no not administrator coordinator because like the document May outlive the position that's currently filled or the currently filled position May someday be the administrator but then we then we'll change it then just leave a coordinator now because there is no such thing as the administrator at this point you may always have a coordinator but you may not have somebody with we used to have an administrator that's why I'm saying that prior we you we had an admin a you had a land use administrator correct yes we did we could fix that hence the old the oldness of the correct yeah that's what I'm saying usually when I've done documents like this I've had them live longer than okay so we could put coordinator administrator we could do that yeah we could do that yeah when in one one one 118 11-8 employment AB board experts it refers to rule 112 I'm not really sure what that will me employ experts professionals the Staffing attorney planner engineer and secretary for two mon 112 establishing composition ofos of the board is that the right rule to I know it's referred to there that's why okay we can just knock that's probably just an outdated reference that I didn't to De so just knock out referred to in rule2 doesn't doesn't have to be referred to yeah are we up to employment of board experts yet we are right okay um I did have a currently this board does not pay for the experts and professionals correct no we don't but this says that we are paying them in one one through eight yeah following that it says as maybe necessary and proper I know at least for M I don't know about Joe and Liz but I know like we will build the board directly for certain work as opposed to applicants right like so the bylaws for example that's I I don't know if they do the same they do okay work on for this particular board it's work on annual report it's you know a lesson class or something right right and then I know there's references later on to uh to Escrow when it comes to like application review clarification on that sure so just to be clear when a professional the planner or the engineer are working on an application is the can't writing a check to them directly are they writing it to the township and the township is paying them right the township and then I process the payment right right it goes into an escrow account and the township is paying yes just not the money no in a direct way right in a roundabout way the applicant yeah right oh I what you're saying yeah the applicant's money is being funneled through a Township right right so then the way is right yeah it's fine yeah um [Applause] ESP there some minor formatting things I need to go back and fix you know like not hyen what is it oh my God back the backslash uh no like like this what is this again oh parth parenthesis Jesus God it's been a long day guys lost half my finger so yeah lost half my brain too yeah yeah so some of the some of the parentheticals need to need to get cleaned up I'm sure you know um in in one 121 regular meetings you don't have 48 twice but one two one page five oh yeah have 48 twice 48 twice you know one what is that it's the only change in that paragraph oh there's two changes in that paragraph oh yeah 48 twice right okay this is one p and two1 Page n page n oh page n i mind it's page five am I missing a page no it's I'm I'm using the clean version yeah so it's a little easier to to look at oh I'm missing some pages have the version oh that's great all right uh one 121 says the regular meetings will be the 1 and 3D Tuesdays but that's not always the case it's not always it says generally did it say generally I was I was looking for I saw that too and I was like yeah yeah it says you have just do didn't see it thank you that's all yeah so just take that one of the 48s yeah they'll probably keep the one in parenthesis take the one that's not in parentheses why do I not have P jeez what a d there I don't know so strange do you have the clean version without the changes I'm just what was the r say one oh no that comes out how many stenographers do we have on on sta what page is that you guys say page I just asking DB page six well mine six it's 1 2-3 the board shall provide for the rebate and recording of the proceedings by stenographer okay that ain't happening okay so we can we can just excise that one just electronic means yeah oh oh just get rid of the sonographer believe everything yes I see bi electronic me all stenographers notes have to come out then yeah some boards do do that U I think in Summit have a stenographer there did it Su recently we used to years ago really yeah we used to have that right there y but the the applicant paid for it so it was like really increasing their cost I mean the applicants we to have one too if he wants you know you see a lot of the big developers will do that especially when it's a contentious well a lot of times to now they'll take the if they really want a transcript they'll take the recording which is why we record right right after the fact if if anything goes to court H 10 what section one calling 2-5 agenda and notice the agenda it says the secretary orlu secretary what why do we need that secretary it's just the L secretary so L secretary yeah that's probably the same thing against some Lang doesn't need to be there um same thing in subsection one I guess where is that it says prominently posted by the secretary or land year secretary what what what oh yeah yeah right there okay by the secretary by the land on you secretary I have a quick question and I hate to jump back yeah that's okay the record of proceedings I know that um about fishing transcript and that there's a uh what section oh this is one um one col 2-3 record of proceedings um that we were just discussing oh I see about Furnishing a transcript right eliminate the transcript and then um dup uh duplicate recording on request is should we mention anything in here about not only putting in a request if you want to um view the meeting but the fact that this is also Memorial these are often posted online on the uh Township YouTube channel m is there something that you would put in here too about this being um being able to view publicly online you don't have to put that in there that's up to the board you can if you want I mean I think this is just saying that we have to provide and by doing posting it online I think that meets the requirement of having to provide right and if you put it in there like we have to put it on YouTube yeah I think I think it just means that we have to find a way to do it and we're we're adhering to the to what it is right now by posting it online if at some point we stop posting on online we'd have to do something else but I don't know if we want to say specifically what we have to do to meet that requirement okay should I mean then it like as to Jerry's point before we don't want to restrict ourselves too much as to what we want to do I think we want to just say you could put in a request for the transcript if you want to yeah and to but at least the the electronic and you know mean we we don't even you don't even have to request because it's there right okay I mean you can request and we'll just say it's there right yeah you can download it from the website yeah okay how I've watched every single one I've ever missed yeah was that transcript thing she uh two colon or I'm sorry one colon 2-3 well transcript is different from the minutes I mean do we I don't know I don't know if that's a requirement that we'd have to be able to provide that I'd have to look into it but we don't keep a transcript we you minutes and we have a recording so yeah this is what mine says the theme potion yeah same thing see cross a lot of stuff probably transcript when you have yeah right but you could transcript shall furnish what are we saying we don't even we don't even need stenographers anymore text to speech does it all right so we with that one to text in particular here's what I'm going to recommend the boy shall finish a duplicate recording on request and just get rid of transcript yeah just get rid of the word transcript CU that cost a lot of money have that transcribed well here's the question it says as statuto statuto required are we required to keep transcripts by New Jersey if you create one you have to keep it right because then it becomes a public record at that point there's a certain retention schedule we have to fall so let's not let's not say we did let's just not create something and we won get foiled or whatever exactly that's why better to make phone calls than send emails sometimes under order of business one colon 2-6 yes sunshine notice can you explain that to me oh that's that's a hold over from Branchburg that's what they refer to when they do the um the statement of compliance so we can just switch that out with statement of compliance okay where's the wording on that two right there oh okay and then three is salute to the flag can we change that to Pledge of Allegiance sure otherwise you have people snapping off solutes I I'll um I think it's pretty stand to call it the flag salute isn't it or no well I've seen it both ways really what I'll do is I'll rewrite that those you know one through 14 to match the uh the agenda so that is sunshine notice statement of compliance yeah yeah yeah so you know what you guys see on your agenda I'll format that section A look reflect the agenda because we usually follow the same basic format every meeting so approval of client yeah that's okay yeah I'll go through this with a fine tooth come if anything too you know just to wanted to put a good draft together for you guys to oh yeah that was good thank you Sor I miss some things brought up the Motions thing I guess I kind of didn't understand that either a single board member votes on the adoption of a resolution of memorialization I guess that's something we don't we don't often not have a second so all motion require second motion what section are you looking at the motion section right here what what number 132 okay we're just mve I'm just moving down from where we just were um is there yeah that whole that was borrowed from the old bylaws but I I think that needs to be Rewritten a little bit there there's some interesting rules when it comes to whether or not a the motion doesn't get seconded yeah not only that but when you you know you're at the point I think when it's when you only have one person uh qualif uh U when only one person is uh is present to vot on resolution yeah because he was the only one maybe no one else everyone else was missing yes so everyone else was missing from it or yeah I guess that's why that was in there right that person can move it and then another board member can act even if that other board member wasn't there can second it but that's Other Board member can't vote on okay okay so I'm just going to reflect yeah just fix that yeah cuz sometimes the only person qualified because they were there would be one member right you can't have a motion with just one e second on page seven of the redline version yes what what number on the same one colon 2-6 number eight is other business and number 12 is open to board members is that what you're trying to call Old SL new business yeah Tom that th those were all carryovers from the Branchburg template okay so yeah I'm just going to swap all scra that whole section out exactly swap it out with our usual agenda says yeah okay uh wouldn't be five members to make a quorum what is that oh yeah it's four yeah yeah as you can tell this was adopted what what section follow sorry following down first you have to specify four if it's not a use variance one four for C1 five for D well that this just says to conduct business just yeah that's just a conduct business oh okay yeah he talks about that later and then under voting procedure right but I think you have to update that too yeah yeah totally should have used the uh I should have used their planning boards pile mix when to get all these uh PL board references I say we should I should have used the zoning board I can't CH so under 134b yeah you have five eligible board members but that should be four right the simple majority because we have seven numbers oh no no no that's right yeah no except for applications requiring variant pursuant to and that's F right and that's that should be F right because you that in yeah f is the one in B you're just talking about non Dev variances right needs four four eligible board members right oh no it is a d variance yeah B is a d variance then what's f f is just saying that you shouldn't abstain oh but that's very weird continuing on it says it becomes it's going to be counted as a an Ascent so it turns it into a yes where it should just be present yeah yeah that's very bizarre I don't even that that was a carryover from the old bylaw so I see okay we we could just scrap that CU hardly it's confusing should okay that's what I confused I thought F was referring to the D variances both a in one 3-3 um maybe it's the last sentence that talks about uh like the vote's not if you're stepping back the vote You' not counted as one of the potential votes M and so um you guys were on F I was stilling and I'm just wondering are they are they inan my question more a question yeah no it's a good point there qualify from voting for any other reason the Clin or abstains such exstension should not be count as vote either in favor or against provided however that we exension effect account for determining whether there is a quorum any member disqualify Mr yeah that sounds right yeah that's right okay basically just still says you need a majority and then five if it's a de variance right and you need a quorum just even have a vote right so you need at least four people to have a vote right so the fewest amount of people you could have vote Yes is three I guess right that would be if you had four people here but I don't I don't think one one 3-5 on Alternate board members is right that paragraph maybe maybe maybe I'm maybe I read it wrong before they can participate in discussions but they can't vote except that's fine that works yeah that's fine yeah alternate one go okay yeah that's special committees I don't know I don't think this board's ever done one but oh we have we had one for the bylaws oh that's right and the ordinance review commit yeah what was that planning board that was PL that was planning board and this but we put someone on it right yeah it was me yeah the his dying and you made employment of experts crossed out oh that was moved to another part oh yeah I think that was back earlier on in the document right yeah yeah you see on cross out area it was either completely scrapped or it was shifted to a different okay part of the bylaws so once I started plugging things in it was like okay I got to kind of reorder how this is to be right because yeah it was looks a lot like you did a lot more but some of it was just moving and that's why that's that's confused okay now on he mentioned something two colon 2-2 what are the instructions it's said here uh once an application filed that's page eight page 132 column 2-2 once an application F by the board in accordance with the appropriate ordinances those these rules and the board's instructions what instructions I don't even know pull that out now where'd that come from I was probably it might have been from the original it was okay I don't remembery to see if I find it of hearing that wasn't that wasn't originally the same no that was originally hearing date adjournment I think he's on Tex I on page 12 of the marked up version no we're not doing the marked up version I was well you're not well yeah but I was I was looking to see it's two calling 2-2 paragraph the first paragraph in that that paragraph I was looking to see where it came from whether it was Branchburg or RS doesn't look like it's an e oh here it is it's in the Branchburg version 214 what the hell that all mean they might they might have had a separate instructions document I don't even think they have one now so that that should be fixed yeah so we'll cross that out what's an application filed with the board in accordance with the appropriate ordinances these rules and these rules oh discount and the bo is deemed complete the case shall be assigned a hearing date yada y y okay yeah okay oh actually last sentence in that paragraph a minimum of 21 days or longer lead time may be required by the board for amended Maps plans or other documents where additional prehearing review is likely to be needed we don't take that out we can scrap that yeah don't what you up to that two calling two dash also okay um there's two calling 2-1 a upon receive the application by the municipal land use officer we don't have that we should have by the what do you want to call it board secretary coordinator okay yeah Chris looking back at two colon 2-3 soever you see that you Bo secretary it's two 21 a well when you ever see that word Municipal land use officer just put yeah I got to find and replace I'm sorry Tom what were you ask two uh two 2-3 B it talks about um the board will we schedule the applicant to the next available hearing that word available it can be read two different ways as if the next hearing or the next one where we have an available space I don't know how to say it better but as I at first reading on this I don't want this person who they canceled their own meeting twice to think well they're next up because they had they had somebody waiting in line for them or something next available hearing date maybe put the word date in there yeah that's all just means if there's other one scheduled they won't be able to get into SCH appc to the next available hearing date right that way that way it it it's known that it's only the date they're getting right and then they could always get rescheduled to that date and then we can carry certification for comple shall be in accordance with the provisions of Long Hill Township ordinances compete this requirements we don't have a technical we don't have a tech technical Review Committee anymore right okay so that take that out and this board really can't have that anyway yes who who deems complete de two call 2-4 well hold on so certification you are a committee of one Committee of one we don't have a tech a secretary or as uh coordinator yeah uh coordinator coordinator I good question I ordinance I don't I don't remember what the ordinance says whether it calls me the board secretary I think it calls me the coordinator in in this actually no I don't even issued in accordance with the provisions of long time ordinances completeness and completeness requirements yeah and just take it out and Technical yeah yeah okay and then then it just kind of leaves it up to yeah right yeah cuz that's flexible then yeah yeah yeah the ordinance will govern that point to reference oh something um this seems done order of proceedings and then you have order of presentation what what numbers are those is that uh two 3-6 why that yeah I don't even think we need two 3-5 because we that earlier reference to you know kind of the the basic agenda layout well two 3-5 is different this is than the agenda uh the the one you were saying is the agenda this is order of proceedings when an applicant steps up but this doesn't make any sense because all testimony should be under oath I don't know just I think two colon three I think when I was putting this together order of proceedings was supposed to be more of a general explanation of the entire meeting while order of presentation was an explanation of what happens during the hearing itself okay kind of like a a subsection of that okay if that's fine I just I mean again if you get I I don't know someone is going to come sue us about this you didn't do it you never know SE some crazy lawsuits get filed like Okay order of proceedings and Order and presentation yeah seem seems like the same thing but that's fine you want to scrap any of it no I I don't know I don't think all me I on H I was looking at H here yeah um any member of the board May Place information on the record as to any relevant matter of which he or she has personal or official knowledge for the purpose of amplifying the record including facts are sutain from a viewing of the pr okay I that's fine yeah you said I drove I drove by the property I saw I like no that's good that's good um two colon 2-7 you've stricken it um this that two what two colon 2-7 yes would be I think you're ahead of me or am I ahead of you we're ahead of you yes okay this is stricken I think it might have been moved to another hold second let me check that because I have aable contents on the other version um because we often do this nobody shows up see you yeah it oh it is two 5-6 yes two call 5-6 now okay okay so that's mve um I don't know if we're on 245 two column 45 right now first of all the the title is typoed but it's residential whatever the last second to last word is typoed but um it talks about and this may be a process thing for you Deb I don't know says the board secretary shall provide applicants with a virtual link for access to the board's preferred web conferencing platform such that applicants use that platform to present their exhibits yeah yeah we don't have yeah that was a poll from Branchburg I figured I'd include this in case you guys were interested what I was going to say I'm like uh that's never been in two5 see what what they do with their meetings is they have a big screen much like we have over there but they use it they'll have a computer setup maybe we should but yeah I don't do that well we would like to do that in the future you know something I had that marked too right take it out yeah we would like to do that in the future it's just not the whole SE it leaves us it leaves us the ability to do it if we don't talk about it that was more so you know something for you guys to consider maybe if you wanted to conduct hearings that way also um the uh removal of board members you have that class thing in there you have to put regular member what uh three one-1 oh yeah whenever a member of this board that's M yeah well or any to yeah whenever a member yeah yeah and when we get into the uh the memo removal procedure stuff that'll we'll come back to this I was just looking for those SC are we pass to 2 three5 no not pass anything question I'm just looking at this and I'm looking at uh 2 colon 3-5 number four and number uh five applicants present their case and board members SLC Consultants question applicants Andor Witnesses uh it's just been my experience that it's kind of not there's not a a solid line that one has to happen and then the next next happens we often ask questions as they're presenting their case yeah that's fine is there any way to to word this so that what what I we're not in violation of our own rules at the top of two 3-5 I can plug a pair paragraph that says this is a general outline of yes you know right this the these are the general outline and May and can be altered by the bo is a general outline subject to change the woman fuzzy wording yeah fuzzy fuzzy is important just to jump to the end best part um three 4-1 we can always relax yeah relax we can relax any well it's actually working it's missing a word what uh for good cause shown or where strict application of any rule work work surprise or Injustice work to so we need to work work to surprise the last one work to surprise so you or yes so you're adding the word two in between work and surprise or injustice Injustice is not a verb yeah that doesn't make any sense what do I mean what does even surprise me there sense relax don't do it or result result in injust yeah or result or may result in in an injustice now I'm going to have that song in my head on like take work surprise yeah would work too s uh no yeah that's I don't think we need to surprise I don't even know I surprise would work too surprise no how about we just cause Injustice that's why Injustice would result in Broad enough that you can do something result in an an injustice in I'm going to recommend Injustice or undo Prejudice right I have a question and this is sort of a nitpicky thing when I think that in pron 3-1 when they say periodic performance evaluations of board staff the performance of the board's consultants and staff staff makes me think that you're like an employee oh okay but they say that but they say that uh the board secretary and planning and zoning administrator shall not be subject to the performance evaluation requirements detailed in this section then we have no staff we have no staff so say just in according to the administrative code we have the ability to hire people okay yeah and we do review the planner and the engineer and the attorney oh okay yeah I don't know if you guys remember the beginning of this year I think in February there was a discussion about actually the bylaws we didn't realize at the time how old they were um particularly with the EV the performance evaluations because I think I think Ed you might have raised the issue that the township committee reviews Deb yeah but the board doesn't so that's this was this was was those changes that I don't think we ever really I think the coordinator is an employee of the township employee of the board they they passed an ordinance for that they it used to be so but we still have uh review power over the the experts okay correct um I don't is this true the non-appearance that it's 4M the Friday before the hearing but they have to what what section 252 it says uh when at time for the hearing or continued hearing on an application either the applicant or anyone in the applicant's behalf appears and no adjournment has been previously requested by 400 p.m. of the Friday preceding the hearing date do we hold them the Friday before the hearing date or we no because things can happen up right so they can they could they could request it up till an hour before the hearing so I don't know they could show up and request it I mean for an adjourn so how a no adjournment has been previously requested prior to the hearing prior to the yeah the application may be dismissed picking up right there yeah so by 400 p.m. to a hearing date excising all that so we're going to say has been previously requested prior to the hearing day right prior to the hearing the because they can do it on the date of right prior to the time for the hearing the applicant keep rules they want to do it on the same day right so you could just say just the hearing day or the Tuesday hearing day because we always meet on Tuesdays not always we can have special meetings on other days well that is true yeah we can schedule the Friday yeah um usually Tuesdays the only dat it there wombs available yeah okay but we can meet outside no Thursdays you can meet yeah right Thursdays Wednesdays when the committee's not in right right that's true um okay we should put prior to or at the hearing that's not just prior to the hearing that's what well it doesn't even have to be prior could be or at the hearing because they have come in and ask for the adment at the hearing so it should be requested prior to or at the hearing right um going back to 2 col 3-5 number 11 it just says board members deliberate we tend to deliberate in Open Session I don't think this assumes a closed session do we need to have the wording can't delate in closed session we cannot deliberate and Clos actually you're right right open open public meetings so we don't even need to put that in there thank you okay I being that it's a general like kind of explanation of the rules I I mean I have no is just plugging in board members deliberate in public what SE uh two col 3-5 number 11 oh 11 yeah because that sounds you're right I I I know what you mean when when I hear that board members deliberate that makes me think that it's more of like a closed thing of board members okay yes and also you can think of deliberating if you been in a jury room where people are just right all talking all at once this we have a more orderly fashion right yes most of with respect right you got to put yourselves in the mind of like an applicant or a member of the public reading this document right right that's why we're we're fixing that so people don't wonder right I would hope an applicant would take a look at this before coming in but but yeah right nobody does well then we can say hey members haven't taken a look at it come on this is to fix problems this really this is just to basically cover things and if someone does look at it it they can't they can't tell us we're not following something or we're doing it differently exactly if they're not sure they can watch this video right so we painstakingly went over [Applause] it um the the all tesy shall be under oath a the first one says applicant shall present themselves identify themselves be sworn um but the B says his or her attorney s present isn't it sometimes an attorney is presenting themselves it's not the applicant themselves the applicant's usually always here the applicant always introduces themselves but the attorney introduces the applicant well I guess there's been cases where the applicant isn't present and it's just an attorney here very seldom but it does happen yeah you could add the words applicant or applicants representative Pro Exon person was here uh no okay he was the TCO Bell owner was in Texas but somebody representative Taco Bell correct this talks about the applicant oh okay Corporation yeah yeah how how does Corporation there's corporate officers here in both cases okay what number what section was that I'm just saying it's 3 attorney is representing the applicant then it's okay yeah doesn't say applicant yeah applicant or applicant representative right okay there you go and didn't he to for the um the Doggy Daycare um application too did wasn't there a representative representing the owner the own necessarily own no the owner was here the owner was here for that at that was him yes he was a franchise owner yeah no I'm talking about the um the gentleman that owns the shopping center yeah oh but that he had he's the management company yes it was the representative of the owner of the right but that wasn't that Ed crom and he was not pres right right he was a m but he was not the applicant right he wasn't the applicant he's a little like how would use nobody ever sees him nobody ever sees them anything else guys jump out actually I'm still going through got some coming up okay and if anybody goes back and reviews again you know send me whatever changes you want me to make and I'll plug them in there we can take oh we have a few now so yeah penis oh this one's this than board staff board um 33-1 yeah board experts first time I've seen it in writing I guess I always knew it to be true since you've been sworn in but two col 4-8 false you don't have to look it up false testimony perjury yep yeah it applies I'm glad we have it in writing here though good comment thanks good comment are you are you fun in me no oh okay yeah well it's important yeah yeah pleas to be I never knew you would send me off to perjury for saying something that was a lie send you off to jail fory well that's why Ed always says do I need to remind you that you're still under [Laughter] oath not sure if anyone's ever been prosecuted for lying at a landard he for here interested un right what they lie about really uh it's hard to lie about a piece of property right my property we've had some fudging though well I I think when you come to those people that are trying to get um like grandfather din for something that's where you might have the exaggeration there before I got there no idea I didn't get I didn't put that there that was I don't know how been there for hundred years yeah it's a brand new yeah what I hear every day yeah I I love when they try to like weasel through it and they're like oh well you know I I I thought we got the permit but I guess we didn't I you know my bad come on you know when you're getting permanent when you're not the next four applications you guys are going to see are like indicative that and and asking permission yeah well no they you know bought with impervious kind of thing well that's not their fault Yeah well yeah they inherit yeah is there anything you guys think I'm I'm leaving out that we should include or no I think this is it's pretty thorough right I mean I I I was was kind of struggling what else can we plug in this but I think I mean we go beyond 24 pages come on yeah I mean but you know don't forget to put the nice cover sheet on it right of course oh yeah the table of contents going be up to 30 uh three colon 1-1 class 4 member again oh yeah hold on nobody took that nobody he told him to fix we Cho that one already CL yeah okay uh also can we Define excused versus unexcused basis on yeah what section three yes we we can Define that yeah I think it's defined in that other document you said I it was in the first draft and then uh no no the one you sent today yeah the memo yeah no memo it says I had a little paragraph kind of explaining the differences but uh maybe we should put it in here yeah just put it as a paragraph here excuse you know board members excuse when unexcused is just put it in here it's 31 yeah just put is three call 1-2 just to explain what it is there might be also something else we might want to talk about I hope this never happens to anyone but if somebody's absent because they're same same section okay if somebody's absent with an excused absence because they're ill let's just say that's an excused absence and they're going to be out for three months they could be uh removed from the board in this case well it says unexcused unexcused but it doesn't talk about excused absences and do they do they amount to anything oh and there's a whole another separate category um excusable absences that's where you don't get out right excused but it find you know let's say you got hit in a car in a car wreck or something way over here you know after the yeah exactly especially with me I already not good luck today um you can't like say the dog ate my agenda four times in a row in the hospital right right an excusable absence would be one where unavoidable things right it's it's not an unavoidable issue but it's not out excused at the front end after the fact you can't hold it against this is covered it seems to be covered in njsa 4A yeah right it seemed to be covered in that section g yeah which is this other document yeah we we touched on that yeah yeah so it's already I mean I guess it's defined under State Statute is what you're saying right right well there's when we get into that there's there's a lot of discussion to be had so there's I guess a top level thing there's certain well there's there's there's removing there's vacating technically um 3on 1-1 technically speaking you could automatically be eliminated from the board and I'm using the word eliminated deliberately um even without being recommended to the township committee that you that you be removed oh let me go back to the uh memo actually the memo the memo States just to to Gary's Point whatever it says which are not due to legitimate this so I assume that is supposed to speak to the fact that if you have a long-term illness or you know something right that would be considered to be legitimate exactly you got to bring a doctor's note though well you bring up a very good point because you know when I do the attendance and the governing body looks at the attendance the governing body doesn't know excuse if you were technically excused they just look at it as an absence right if they're is are excessive absences then the the committee comes back to me and asks you know what and then you know if I don't know I said we have to talk to that board member but you know we talk about a lot being excused and yes of course there's going to be times when people in Miss the meetings the bottom line is was when the governing body looks it over all they say is an absence they don't really care if it's excuse or or anything look by operation of the of the ml if you miss four meetings in a row they're not and they're not excused you're automatically off the board anyway you don't even have to get the first you abandon your position essentially right you vacate your position vac okay yeah there's you can be removed you could vacate your office or you can forfeit your office so forfeiture and vacation are very similar and that they're automatic but um when you're forfeiting an office it's a it's a usually it's a criminal act that you committed right like you know taking a bribe to vote on an application for example it's an easy one I that you get convicted of that you're automatically off the board yeah or if you just move out of town right something less more benign than that well that's when might just resign well there's a distinction you you vacate your office when you move out of town but you forfeit your office when you're convicted right same effect but you know technically except if you men it then you can he hasn't been found guilty yet uh yes he was he was and he's also noer oh but yes but he wasn't cented he's got an appe he'll get off his sentencing is in February in November of each but he stepped down from the Senate how many Golds he I don't want to have I don't want to have that no no yeah no it's this week he resigned oh and just instead of Staff put experts and Consultants experts exps he he resigned with a data of 33 A B A and B yeah just put the word exports and consult and then just put may meet CU we don't have I don't want to have may make appointment recommend think got may meet with and just St change the word uh staff to experts y got the board secretary and the Planning and Zoning administrator coordinator coordinatorat got that se is subject to the performance yeah technically right now we do not have a second S I thought I thought was appointed somebody he appointed him but he doesn't take off till September 9th all right is it but the Senate's not doing any business right now anyway technically we we go that's the best time they can't screw anything up better better not doing anything according to this today is Men menendez's last day is going away party I want to see okay is there anything else that we're going to do on this one the BW yeah I don't know is there anything else yeah anybody got anything got anything else we're going to have to review it again after I'll put another draft together I'll sh out to you guys we uh and just keep don't make it one copy then yeah yeah don't make it with the changes just make it a clean copy clean version don't do thisin that's confusing I got you uh just do the version that I have here with the changes no problem so that way everyone's looking at the same thing or does he want to do strike throughs on the old one underlying with strike just do this version with the changes we just made that way we don't have oh I'm looking at the one with the underlining I'm no I'm saying there one version but strikethroughs versus changes no no just if you want to a clean version a clean version and if you want to make the changes in bold that's fine too you know like anything we we changed in bold put bold I like the red line version too Jerry I like strike throughs but anyway absolutely or bold if we I can do both I have no problem don't do both do not do both on my account I figure it out but if you're if you're adding something should be bold if you're striking something it should be a line through it you can't put a line through what you're added shouldn't right right so you bold with to add it in your strike and you put a l yeah that's fine that's good I thought you did not want that no no no no but I wanted it on this copy not like that yeah just one copy so we know what the changes on right I got I didn't want it on the copy that had all the other stuff in it I'll stick to just bold and strike through to try to make it as simple as possible yes on this version right I got no that that was his base copy that he used to draw into our copy yeah not on this copy cuz this is confusing yeah yeah it [Music] is all righty now I think um out today if that's all we have at this point to talk about the B laws I think we did a a bang up job on it that was good a lot smoother than I thought about this memorandum thing what came in later can we speak about this already no we're about to get to that yeah okay memorandum um guess it's new business it's sort of under new laws yeah this kind of if you guys recall this kind of out there was a discussion at the last meeting about board me member removal procedures you guys asked me to put a memo together kind of explaining everything so that outcropped from the bylaw so I guess got a tangential relationship there um yeah so just I'll give you guys a quick a quick overview of this um you know as I was researching this and quite frankly I've never really dug into the topic before um turns out there's a little more to it than just removing a board member as I was kind of alluding to earlier you can either get removed from your office you could vacate your office or you could forfeit your office so I figured you know if we were going to talk about removal might as mantion the vacation forfeiture um yeah I know this is a little last minut getting to you guys but if anyone has any questions let me know otherwise pretty straightforward you know you can only be removed um the removals are governed by njsa 40 col 55 d-69 and that pertains only to Boards of adjustment not planning boards there's actually a separate statute for planning boards for whatever reason not relevant but um you can only be removed here's the standard for removing some from Office you may be removed after a public hearing if you request it but you have to be removed by the governing body and they have to have cause to remove you right right so that's in a nutshell as to how someone could be you know permissibly removed from the board not like automatic like as it would be with a vacation or a forfeiture moving right so really the question in that the question that AR arose in my mind that I'm sure might arise in some of your minds out of hearing that is well what what is good CA to be removed well there's a little bit of case law on it um the case uh goolan v cardale um it's a 1976 case you can tell there's a not a whole lot of case law on if I have to go back to almost 50 years to to dig up stuff for this but basically good cause in order for there to be good cause to remove you you must have committed an act of misfeasance or nonfeasance in the course of carrying out your duties as a board member and that act of misfeasance or nonfeasance must have have have had an impact which substantially disadvantages the public right so for example you know missing a number of meetings right you know if you're you're disadvantaging the public if we don't have a to have going to keep right if you're coming in for a d variance and we don't have five and this is only applies to removal of when you're in your term correct not non not non not not being uh n nonwe uped by the township committee they can do that at any time right they have the discretion they appoint right your terms up your terms up they decide whether if this is during your term right right I mean typically the Practical reality of isn't that very rarely will you know a governing body remove a board member unless it's very courageous even if it they're you know let's say they're pain in the Caboose they'll wait till the end of their term and then just not reappoint them you know but this is you know in extreme circumstances well this also defines that when you if you do move out of town you got to take yourself off right or you know well you're you automatically right you're automatic you're automatically gone as soon as you move out of town you don't even have to technically resign I mean most people do just as a courtesy yeah yeah yeah you you automatically give up your office if it's declared by a judge um once you resign obviously that's pretty it's given um upon refusal of a person designated for appointment for such office to qualify or serve I guess that would be like if you were appointed but you actually lived in another town yeah in reality well then you're automatically off um when you die obviously oh yeah um unless you live in Chicago Jersey City unless you live in Jersey City um residency requirement obviously move out of town and then we get to G which is a long paragraph basically what that says is you miss four consecutive meetings I'm sorry you miss miss eight consecutive weeks which isn't really applicable here that's would be if we had a meeting every week that would really make sense or four consecutive regular meetings um at the conclusion of that period uh the board would have to notify the governing body right they do it right and the governing body is the one who actually removes you right but we have no power to do that right right well you can recommend that they do we only have recommendation right exactly um yeah but this this kind this kind of sub paragraph gives you the a little bit of flexibility in determining you know when you want to remove people like let's say okay I miss three meetings in a r then I show up and I miss another three then I miss one well technically I hav't missed four consecutive meetings but you know there this this Clause at the end that says uh you know you could you know nothing shall prevent you from you know establishing a policy that would uh set a lower threshold provided it's you know not less than three yeah thank you for this this is very problem I mean this this is like you said there's really not a lot of substantive case I because how often doesn't happen that often most people like you said most The Times They just wait for your turn to be up and right and if you're going to get removed I mean you got to think you got to go pay for your own attorney to represent you to sue the town yeah right for a volunteer position yeah you know what's funny want to be this yeah the card and Alley case that I reference before the the facts of that case there was a guy who was on the he was on the planning board actually he was an engineer he got assigned to an assignment in Germany notified the governing body in the board that he would be absent for a few months they approved his leave of absence and then they got was supposed to come back and then he missed another three meetings and then they decided to remove him um and he really wanted to be on there yeah he sued and well you know what's funny he actually at requested attorney's fees the court denied it this went all the way up to the Supreme Court and they did he get back on yeah for the rest of his term and then they just didn't reappointed yeah so he came back for like two months and then it was gone this was for a plan board yeah he was really into it was your city or was it I forget what that had to be like political stuff where they were just fighting anyway yeah he just wanted to prove he was right yeah God I forget to be that forget what jurisdiction that was on hold on cuz nobody's that enthusiastic about any board seat right I would hope not you'd be surprised I don't know I know a few people who are sorry demerist I think de and I the same it was in demist Where demerist Dem whaty County County to town so he probably was ATI attorney himself I mean come on it's a small yeah B Bergen County politics are I never heard of Dem Chris can you explain uh G that you were just talking about uh second half of the first sentence without being excused by a majority of the authorized members of such body yeah that means if you of this board so how many the board committee is Top member of a board committee commission it's talking it's talking about that board right not not the township committee that Authority no it's talking to about you as the board yeah yeah so that basically what that says Tom is that if you don't get an excused app if you're if you're not excused then you miss for and we give that power to our secretary okay but it says excused by a majority of the authorized members of such body who authorized members she is you are okay so you have to excuse or not excuse right I think we we've say seated that power I believe I can't get that from just reading that well but this isn't our board this isn't our this is state right yeah this is the this is the state law yeah this the way they word it convoluted as usual and I think maybe in our own bylaws we would say SE the power to that might be something exactly to include the bylaws I'm going to make a note of that instead of voting at each meeting saying well is it really right is an excuse and not ex not that this is going to happen but in terms of residence requirements is it something you have to live here more than six months is that is that the requirement or you just have to live here for one you just have to have a resident that you own question I was wondering you have to own property physical address here and it's a primary residence or has to be yeah yeah it's got to be a primary residence amount of time so anyway that's a good question I never knew that I just knew primary residence but primary residence by definition means it's three or 183 days right that you reside in that place I mean that's for tax purposes yeah I don't know if the same thing applies hold on I got who cares I guess it's only I've never seen it in the administrative code or in any bylaws yeah yeah i' have to go look the statue retired folk who go down south in this section we're going to say that the board hereby grants or hereby uh I mean my prev I've had people just been there months come on the board the power Toc I haven't seen on this board but planning board on the planning board yeah yeah I don't recall ever seeing a a residency term before you can be on any appoint not before but if in the given year you're only here for 100 days I mean obvious your residency is established I believe you can ask our attorney looking it up but is established when you take residence not 182 days later that might be that's a tax law that's an IRS yeah no during for a year your primary residence is where you spend the most nights but I don't know it's the same yeah if we have that same thing here that's like I said that's an IRS regulation not a yeah so as long as basically as long as you say it's your primary residence you can be on this board yeah yeah I mean there no one's no one's I mean it's the governing body that ultimately I mean you would probably miss all the meetings and You' probably get you know if you weren't here for majority of the days you'd probably miss so many meetings that you might get kicked off anyway but all it says on this is from uh njsa 55 d-69 um all regular members and any alternate members shall be municipal resid okay just means they have to own property here and there's no definition doesn't well you have to be a resident so I guess own property but not live you reside where you live but I'm saying you you own property and Li but you don't have to live here a majority of the time to reside here you do have to live here yeah but do you have to live here a majority of the time you don't you could just you do I think you do you're resident you only have one residence yeah according to the tax you only have one res tax but it's just other legal reasons yeah that's what I meant and it's always considered like you get 10 houses but you only have one residence yeah you wouldn't have somebody who has a vacation home like I's say you're down something um what's coming up as far as next meeting we have two applications and what may they be two we supposed to here tonight know okay so there's a new house on WE one with the Varan okay hasn't been built yet no and it had previous variances on the 691 Long Hill next month's appli I don't remember the cross street there's there's been a for sale sign I think literally for as long as I no it's further west west eastest that one and then there's a a use Varian for uh this board saw a couple years ago a senior Suite oh that that's the one on South Northfield so those two okay is that senior s coming first go to go first because that'll be quicker I think would it why do you do that you say that come on I mean I would think that's an easier one because it's already built and it's not something we looking well it depends on how the board feels yeah no but I'm just saying a new house would be you know a little bit more intricate because we're dealing with new construction yes the new experience is going first yeah that's what I thought yes um you know I'm not saying it it should be but it it should be really easier I don't like to jinx it okay um all right okay and uh I guess we have no old or new business um do I have motion to adjourn so moved okay