##VIDEO ID:rxNpMffBeI0## e e e e e e e e [Music] all right Mr chairman we're on the here okay all right hold the order I hereby declare this Z Board of adjustment regular meeting is hereby called the order on September 17 2024 at 7:34 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided by posting a copy of the public meeting SL hearing dates on the municipal bulletin board and website by sending a copy to the Echo senel and CER news newspapers and by filing a copy of the municipal clerk any hearing conducted by the board is a quasi judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant to what this board May legally consider in reaching a decision and a decorum appropriate to judicial hearing must be maintained at all times meeting cut off announcement is made that as a matter of proed procedure it is the intention of the zoning Board of adjustment not to continue any matter past 10:30 p.m. at any regular special meeting of the board unless a motion is passed by the members then present to extend the meeting to a later specified C off time all IND attendants are asked to mute cell phones or electronic devices so that they are not do not interrupt the proceedings Pledge of Allegiance please to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all roll call yes Mr arono here miss Brennan here Mr Flatley here Mr gakis here Mr Rosenberg here Mr Watts here miss Collins has excused this evening Vice chairman gof here chairman G here chairman we have a quarum thank you okay now let's see what we have coming up meeting minutes June 18th July 2nd August 20th and September 3rd carried carried carried I I yeah I I thought so I hadn't seen okay the the voting on those will be carried to a later specified time next meeting or probably next uh resolutions carried carried okay resolution Teresa Gallow and Kyle Henry are both carried just so everyone knows they're they're basically done it's just that we finalized them this morning we give everybody time to review them but uh yeah they definitely be ready at the next meeting next meeting y okay that brings us to the applications block 10901 lot 17 Zone R4 known as 471 Valley Road application number 24-11 Z Charles how do you pronounce that Mahia Mahia applicant proposes to construct an addition to the rear of an existing single family dwelling I see the applicant is present I am you don't have to push the button in fact don't push the button CU that mutes it it should be tap it Charles make sure just tap the mic make sure it's working yep good he good think shuts it off if you hit the button astounding it never does yeah well anyway um okay so um I I think every well go ahead swe yeah do my do the legal formalities and then Square them doing what you guys pay me for Mr chairman okay so a couple points first Mr chairman I just point out as far as the notice is concerned I deem it to be both uh uh timely to have been timely served and to have sufficient content to give the board jurisdiction hear and decide the case it was sent by certified male owners of property within 200 feet of the subject property on September 6 2024 and also published in the daily record on again September 6 2024 uh with that um I can swear in and the applicant and ourt and our experts as well now all of you please uh raise your right hand Miss are you going to be testifying you are too okay all right do all of you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to provide will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do I do right all right so Mr Mahia why don't you uh tell the board while you're here actually can I get your address real quick uh yes Charles Mahia 471 Valley Road uh good evening members of the planning board we're here adjust Board of adjustment us dou your pay tomorrow uh we propos to uh just bump out our kitchen over our existing patio okay just a just a small addition what why explain to us what the need for that I mean why why is why did that come about that you wanted to do we feel our kitchen is we've outgrown our kitchen we have two teenagers at the house with a lot of friends over and around a small tiny Island so it's uh we we'd like a little room for them for ourselves and you know you know improve the value of the home as well I see it's a two-story home you're just doing the first floor correct just the first floor yes so you like a shed roof coming out exactly um did you have a chance to look at our expert report I did yes is there anything in there I know there's some questions there might there usually are questions in our uh reports um do you have any questions the planner I do not you didn't have any questions but I didn't see any how about our engineer um no no pretty straightforward exempt from storm water management what was that it's exempt from our storm water management mitigation requirement okay um particularly in that it's you know while they are asking for the variance and coverage uh it's over an existing non-conforming area uh so it's not exacerbating anything more and it's still under the thresholds of our minor development standard okay so it it it's being built over what exctly it's over the patio and existing deck so what's going to happen with that area oh it just be covered uh but you don't intend to build another deck or another no no that's we're fine with as as is we just want to addition to the kitchen and like is it going to be door to the outside from the kitchen the same patio sliding doors we have will just be replaced but we moved outward obviously but what's going to be at the end of that on the lawn is there going to be a patio there or what's going to be everything that's on the grounds now will remain oh so you're not taking up the entire area no no it's only coming out 7 7 by 35.4 ft and what's there the patio and deck but what's the deck size now oh he's asking how far does the patio project from yeah like how much space 7 ft into the deck s fet into the deck the deck is about 14 okay so you still got sevenet of the deck of deck correct okay so you don't need to extend that correct anymore okay so you're just making your deck a little smaller to you're sacrificing your deck for your kid exactly uh any members of the board questions yes I was kind of thinking the same way you were just want to be sure that the applicant is is sure that you won't need that outside space because people use the outside space a lot when you say outside space meaning the deck and the and the patio area it's you're reducing that by quite a bit do you use it right now uh we don't use the patio CU it's just pavers but we use the deck quite a bit and that area is not being minimized by a great amount by set by half so uh just just one section of it not totally cut in comfortable that after this construction's done you don't need to come back before the same board and ask for a variance for extending that's not in the plans or the budget okay well you know the reason let me ask you let me explain why we do that because a lot of times applicants don't realize that maybe they should be doing something different or more and if you don't ask for it now you have to come all back again and do again in big expense doing this part of it and time and time and time so we just want to make sure that to get what you want and what you need yes uh we've had applicants change their minds after ask after we've asked them questions based on they've thought about it sometimes you know so that's why we want to make sure uh any other questions Mr chairman yes goad you don't mind um just to hop back to our board Engineers memo uh that came out today um Joe I noted a few conditions you had in there uh comments 3.2 3.5 3.6 and then 4.1 um 3.2 would be that we'd be requiring the applicants to uh get a written signed statement from the owner of Jason lot 40 to verify that fence there's um the in your rear yard there's a a slight encroachment of the chain link fence correct um that then I see the neighbor fence is a different type in style so I assume that it is your offense uh yes I had to do some digging um I I spoke with um Mr Mike Wiggins of 166 King and I cuz that fence was there when we moved in so I didn't know if they had fence or our pre the previous owners and it was our previous owners um I spoke to him verbally and he is okay with the location of the fence and he will provide written statement um going for provide yeah just simple statement letter that says he's okay with the fence as it stands yes okay um and then uh 35 we may be able to make this go away is the bump out of the kitchen is that intended to have I didn't see it in the architectural gutters over that area or would that just drain off off the ledge of that roof down into the there there will be one on the on the end there's currently nothing there because it's just okay it's horizontal but there is supposed to be one okay so the that that condition would be for that roof leader to drain to the same location as the the nearest roof leader on this on the corner of your house okay so it goes to the same area it's from it's from the same and it doesn't change the drainage pattern understood anything else um I mean soil erosion the 36 arguably really won't even be necessary based on the work being done over like over existing over the existing area so we can remove 36 3.6 is and then 4.1 Outside Agency approvals to the extent necessary yeah to the extent necessary they they have submitted to the County planning board yep I saw that in the application um so we'll defer you know the front yard fence or anything else to the county if they have any objections to it for Sight lines right right thanks Joe um so Mr Mia so essentially the reason we went through all that as any condition of approval if the board were to Grant your application we would ask that you just to comply with those three items you you know get that statement from your your neighbor about this fence uh maintain the existing drainage patterns and then just make sure you get all your Outside Agency approvals which you'd have to get anyway regardless of course yeah okay so you're complying with all those just want to be quick yes sir okay thank you sir um okay that's all I have Mr chairman just wanted to make sure we got all that fles out I just note that there were Liz didn't have any comments or any conditions that could be interpreted from her Memo so um what if you don't what's the current width of your of your kitchen now um that's a tough one it's a probably see you can estimate 20 ft okay 20 by seven this entire it's going to just ex make the kitchen bigger you're not going to change any interior the correct the interior will not come out um we just the extension specifically will be a mud room and kitchen mud room and kitchen right so um you don't currently have a mud room we do not okay so that you have U what what do you enter into from your garage right into the a small laundry area that goes into the kitchen that's almost like a pseudo mud room right okay it's muddy if that's what you mean but I mean this is just going to be a mud room and the rest yes sir any other question I one more question yes um is there currently a variance for the overage the 28. 31 whatever that is so um due to more digging the I found an old survey and the patio did not exist and I believe that's what took the previous owner over the 25% coverage so we currently stand like you mentioned existing non-conforming at 28.3 uh this addition doesn't change it at all still there's no variance to get you to the 28.3 that was not I did not we were not how you purchased the property and it wasn't done by variance on the Construction Construction as far as I know there was no previous application for such so now we're making it legal basically a question um and I I noticed on the application that floor area it says 1,700 allowed or is that just required that's that's just required right you can be more than that right the minimum is the minimum is700 okay because I noticed they're going up on that but that's that's that's not ma yeah they don't want little houses yeah I know I didn't seem um any other questions one more Mr shair actually yes are you installing any like lighting fixtures on the exterior of this Edition not on the exterior okay all right there's um a flood light for the outside for security that's all that will that already exists you're not adding anything you're not going to have a light next to your sliding door oh there's one already there and we'll just that'll come that'll come out with it that's going to stay the way it is with the bump up yes okay so there was going to be a light next to the door yes and it's uh we normally uh mandate that they don't shine out they Shine Down Down correct and you're okay with doing that should you you know let's say you want to change the lighting fixture Midway through the game you're okay with complying with making sure it's downward otherwise Shield okay yeah that's to ensure that you're not shining on lights on other people's property specifically the property who the offense is already already in their property there you go yeah uh if the fense was higher you wi board um all right uh any other questions by board members one more really stupid question Mr chman I'm so sorry you see me f question I know I'm they doing all the basic stuff that we do for addition so if you're doing is the exterior of the addition it's going to match the the rest of the house sighting wise yes okay another condition that we would ask for very basic it's not going to be purple or hot pink no talking out of gingerbread going to blend okay that that is all I have Mr chair oh great well thank you for asking thank you for that by the way that is important that was you know normally would ask that but we sometimes we assume things we should it's it's on their plans yes but you know but um so the is basically for lot coverage that's correct correct clean up the existing non-conforming yeah all righty do you know the size of the kitchen will be after it's built total cuz you have 20 by7 now math in public I love it so you're 35 I I estimate 35 by 16 nice kid I'm sorry again math in public um I'd have to subtract the mud room which is about yes right so yeah it wouldn't be a 43 it were correct the the whole the you're going to take the 20 and take that out and then the rest would be the mud room yes so it's like 15 and 20 mhm okay gotcha but there'll still be 16 all 16 deep yeah so 20 by 16 still nice yeah any other questions um now public what public what public yes I willor before we get public I wanted to ask you're uh to your knowledge this isn't um uh inflicting any detriment onto the neighborhood that you can set I cannot know okay and none of the neighbors have to your knowledge expressed any dislike with that with your players they have not I'm friendly with all of them they're all okay with it and they've all been the immediate neighbors all all the 20t neighbors that were notified have not had come up with pitchforks and and not yet okay uh and uh yeah I don't um the um and the benefits obviously are that your kitchen is going to be bigger and it's going to be more useful to your family and it's going to cover land that's already impious anyway correct any other uh thanks all right uh I don't see any many of the public except for the jet people sitting out there and I assume you're the next application okay so seeing no members of the public other than the next application and I don't assume you have anything to say about this one right okay to um very good so um did you Joe did you want to say anything about positive and negatives just to you want to say yeah did it right yeah yeah but I mean you there anything else I missed no you didn't miss anything I mean this is a very technical variance because they're not making a situation worse they're actually uh improving they're not improving it they're just not they're not doing anything you know really they're improving the house exactly but they're not in terms of the the variance relief requested they're not making anything worse okay um so it it is sort of a technical Nature by the fact that they bought a house that had an existing situation that somebody didn't get a variance for okay so that essentially they're they're correcting what somebody else did wrong right and also making the house a little B and making the house enhancing the value great okay just want to make sure for legal reasons we have to put all okay so uh would you like to start deliberations I don't think there's much to deliberate okay well you have to say something so no I appreciate you coming by it's uh definitely not going to tell my wife about this project because then I'll be myself have to keep this quiet hopefully she's not watching but no it seems like it makes a lot of sense Echo all the sentiments of our professionals um you know know you're not really changing anything you're just writing I guess a wrong if you want to call it that so thanks for coming by thank you J so I'm also for the application I think you meet the um C2 criteria in terms of the you know existing non-conforming condition in terms of the impervious coverage there's no detriment to the community that I see or or you know uh anything that goes against our zoning laws if anything you'll be adding value to the home and then that adds value to the neighborhood um and so I will approve the application thank you Gary I think it's a nice Simple Plan to make your kitchen more enjoyable for it thank you Jared um I don't really think I have anything of any value to add it's pretty di Minimus in it's in the application you're increasing it by a small amount it's not your offense it's someone else's so I think I'm in favor of the application thank you Tom I agree with everything my colleague have said the neighor is better the house is better and you're you're correcting a non-conformity so I'm on board jonath thank you yeah there's nothing much more to add other than uh good luck and thank I I I would be supportive of this thank you I see some documents here dated from 2023 that was so long ago thank you for putting up with the process okay and and writing the wrong of the purose coverage thank you you yeah I I concur with my uh colleagues I I think this is a benefit to the neighborhood I don't see any detriments you're going over impervious coverage you're actually getting you're getting permission for something that was already there that was impervious you're not increasing it you're not changing anything you're not detri menting the Neighbors in any way so I would be in favor you want to give us a little quick exclamation Mr chairman absolutely okay applicant is here there just one applicant but he's joined by I'm assuming that's your wife yes hello thanks for coming she didn't testify but she was sworn uh okay applicant here is seeking one bulk variance that's just for lot coverage um they're permitted 25% in this Zone which is the uh R4 Zone they're proposing an existing condition which is 28.3% as far as conditions go the applicant has agreed to stipulating has stipulated to complying with uh comments 3.2 3.5 and 4.1 in our board Engineers memo dated September 17th they've also agreed that uh or stipulated that no exterior lighting fixtures installed in connection with this proposal would uh or every any exterior lighting fixtures installed in connection with this proposal would be directed downward or shielded and uh Additionally the exterior of the addition is going to be uh you know aesthetically uniform with the balance of the existing dwelling so uh that's it Mr chairman one bear do I motion to approve this ad so moved I second call yep Vice chairman grof yes Mr Rosenberg yes Mr ronio yes Miss Brennan yes Mr Flatley yes Mr gakis yes and chairman gret yes motion carries you done all is to start the construction start signing the checks well yeah first you have to be first you have to get plan yes those are in the works too thank you everybody you're welcome congratulations good luck best of luck in tou to record approval the garage I mean I know by uh we can find another chair somewhere sit down right there young lady hi Jessie how are you it's not scary just weird I'm kind of scared you are on TV don't talk to the girl there gep creepy Gary okay now the um the next application that we have is block 10101 lot 6 Zone R3 address is 131 Rolling Hill Drive application number 24-14 Z the uh applicant's name is eigor would you pronounce shman what shelman shelman okay good that's just the way it's pronounced it's the way it's spelled no you do it applicant proposes to construct a pool with AO are area and outdoor accessories in the rear yard of an existing single family dwelling Al is C is here I see you sitting there uh would you squar in everyone for this one absolutely Mr chairman I'll just quickly point out um the notice was good on this one as well uh the applicant timely served it and had the sufficient content to give the board jurisdiction to he and decide the case it was sent by certified male to owners of property within 200 ft of the subject property on September 6th and also publish in the deli record on September 6th um okay as fast as as I can make it okay would you raise your right everyone who's going to be testifying please raise your right hands all right thank you all do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to provide will be the truth the whole truth and nothing about the truth I do okay it's affirmatives from everybody Mr chairman back to you yes great terrific and just to be fully disclosed I live on Rolling Hill I'm not within the 200 ft I'm up the road so I have no uh interest in the the immediate area so I can I can sit on this one um and I am familiar with the house uh so explain what you want done so we're trying to build the inground pool in the in the backyard which doesn't have anything currently you have a um above M Pool currently right uh above yeah okay and and um I saw your plans uh what what inspired to what inspired you to build it as the plans are indicated um you know just kind of you spoke to a few uh pool people they recommended that that's the best location that's the one that's has the least tree shading um you know less stuff to clean up less coverage okay um I noticed there was a question in our one of our plans I think it was the planning or it was it was a question about that you indicate there's going to be an outside um kitchen but you didn't specify where it's going to go or maybe it wasn't yeah it was not labeled yeah we were still kind of trying to finalize because once we got the engineer to start doing the survey and the pre-planning he came across that you know we are over on the variant so we weren't exactly sure if we're going to do the kitchen or if we're going to do the fireplace or we just kind of wanted to go in front of you guys see what you say and then take it further well whatever whatever uh relief we give you today is what you're going to need or you're going to get so if you want it you got to ask for it now well we we were going to do it in the other point is we were going to do it in two phases meaning uh if we could start on the pool project do that now and maybe do the kitchen next year right but you want the approval for it now yeah I yeah I guess yeah I mean if you don't you have to come back all the way back to us again and get the approval once you get approval you have two years to begin Mr chairman if you don't mind just drop in real quick Miss can I get your name and address for the record Karina okay Karina address okay same address both you both reside at 131 Rolling Hill okay thank you so just a question about the you know phase two of the construction would it be contained within this area that would cause the 28% so it's not like you're going to come back and say we need additional impervious carbage R so even though it's not on the plan they're they're just a matter which corner is kind of going to go on the p and for Budget purposes says like splitting I got it just just so just to be clear if you're if you're going to do the outdoor kitchen everything you want to do you only need 28.5% lock coverage is that correct correct okay you don't need any more than that for all this okay just making sure we're getting the right thing captured here thank you okay so the lock coverage is going to be the same no matter either way right right with the kitchen right and what would the kitchen consist of just barbecue grill of uh refrigerator uh uh any any running water no no water just the refrigerator and a gr okay you're not running a water line out there just the gas yeah is it coane or natural gas we didn't even get that far but I mean natural gas would be easier so you don't have to Lug it so hopefully that will be the case but okay um what kind of pool is it an A-frame 18 by 36 uh cement liner uh I guess if they do metal they drop like a metal thing oh so then it's a liner so it's a frame with yeah frame okay um what what is currently at in that location just grass just grass here well the the above ground yeah I mean that's not uh the above ground is not where going to be right uh well that's yeah it's going to go where that above ground is it it is okay yeah just sideways just okay so the above ground is gonna yeah it's going to go more to the right right more behind the house the above ground is kind of to the side yeah okay okay I see what you so pools is going to be more behind the the driveway than the house yes yeah it's going to kind of start from the driveway and kind of creep in the side of the is that any reason why you didn't put it behind the house um well that side has the shade oh okay that's where the shading yeah rather have it in the Sun so it was just the the way nature yeah yeah yeah L trees you have to take them down it's nice over there yeah use the sun to heat the full always a good idea um the tree commissioner will be glad you're not cutting the trees down yes right oh it's always good yes not to cut the trees down um what necessitated the need for a inground po F to what the pool you have now just like a I'll take this one yeah goad it's my dream just a just a lifelong dream wanted to always wanted to have a pool we moved here three years ago it's our first home oh and so here we are for the kids we person who built that he was a pain yeah his son and my son are in school together oh that's ni when he built it the taxes went up so high then he couldn't afford to live there anymore that's what happens yeah no yeah I know but U so is there any questions from our engineer and planner um so yes turn to in my letter I I did have some concern with the survey um I noted that it's it's called as a location and topographic survey rather than more traditionally a boundary survey and then there are in the notes and certifications a bit of exclusions so I I my first comment was asking the surveyor to provide some clarity in a letter that he is certifying the boundary um there are iron pins at the front two corners of the property so with confidence from those iron pins the rest of the property can be accurately laid out um so it shouldn't be much of much of an issue for him to satisfy that with a quick letter um the second com ment uh seeing the proximity of the sanitary and drainage easement on the side yard particularly the the physical location of the sanitary sewer essentially on the Westerly Edge interior to your property of that easement and then the sanitary easement in the rear um in 32 I asked that the surveyor stake out the limits of those easements for Clear boundary for you before any construction happens so that the fence doesn't damage the pipe or that your proposed improvements don't go encroaching into exempt County Parklands um and and with that 33 you know just recommending the the pool fence on that side yard that Far Side yard the Eastern side yard the pool fence actually how he laid it out they might have did it wrong I was going to actually just Square Off the whole place the whole property yeah I think he kind of did like around the trees kind of going which that wasn't what I told them to so so you'll have yeah I see I see what you mean um you'll have um you'll have some room to change that final alignment when you obtain the construction permit for the fence but I would like the fence to be 5 F interior all from the center line of that uh sanitary pipe just to ensure that the found from yeah not not from the edge of the easement but like I mean you'll they'll be able to tell the surveyor from where the where the pipe is and where the edge of that easement is to make sure there's enough room that it's not the pipe isn't damaged by your fence and then in the future that they don't damage your fence if that sewer is being worked on by American Water sure and that way you know you don't have to remove and replace at your cost that fence um for storm water management this is a minor development um there are some calculations on the plans that indicate that they will be satisfying 4 Ines of runoff over the impervious area which basically everything's collecting into French trins and draining to the recharger um there was a discrepancy in on the plan and the call out um over the area it says 16 ctech units and in the calculation notes it references 20 and so um just back yeah that needs to be reconciled and that's essentially in uh my comment 36 mhm just asking that your engineer take a second look at that and that I recommended he use CeX design calculator which will actually give you a specific detail for what is going to be installed um and then along with that 37 there does need to be a soil log ex you know test pit excavation in that area just to ensure that there the seasonal High groundwater is deep enough that as they propos to install that that that's the adequate location for it so that the the storm water management works um and then the last concern being for two um the the survey shows a vertical datum based on Google Earth scaled from Google Earth um and the elevations they're referencing I can't really cross reference those two national vertical datums um so there I have some concern that the flood flood Hazard elevation from the pic river is somewhere on the tail end of your property um and so if that's the case then there there may be either either permit by rule um or even General permits from D that you would need to construct in this area they're they're not hard to obtain because they're related to a residential Improvement and the res residential amenities um so what would he have to do but so so we're what I'm recommending is an elevation certificate by your surveyor that's kind of the the cheapest First Step where he can establish the vertical datum properly and tie that to say the first floor elevation of your home and then from there we can he can translate the vertical data me put on the Contour so what he calls 209 in the back of your property can be more accurately labeled as whatever elevation it is and then that that assessment can be determined if that's the case it's an outside agency approval so the better the better the delineation of of uh the grade or the height it may be in fa yeah I mean essentially what what we're looking for is these elevations to increase to something north of uh 215 218 in that area so that um the flood plane elevation under the new state rules that elevated by 3 ft would be just off your property and then that way you don't have to obtain any kind of Permitting um and so that's just um an outside agency approval that that may be required after further clarification you guys will comply with everything that's in joose W gone through and everything in his memo right yes okay thank you yeah the uh you do understand anything our experts say that are conditions will be put in the resolution and you're whoever you have as an expert whether it be your architect your engineer your but your surveyor will know how to follow those Okay so that that you just show it to them uh this is not something you physically would have to do except for the D and you'd probably get your expert to do that cont should be if if the elevations come out favorably it could not me not you know not applicable or if it's slightly on the property it may just simply require some what do we call permit by by rule which is essentially your engineer documenting on your plan that he's living within the rules of the flood Hazard area for D and then you don't even have to send anything to D there's no cost to that these are all technicalities because of the river not that you probably even see the River from your house actually over you did yeah how far is it um just under 500 ft maybe probably so we're well you know we're outside the 300t raran there's no other regulatory areas it's just a concern if the potential of flood which is I don't think it's ever flooded that much but who knows right um first time for everything yeah unfortunately anything from the Pres I'll tell your Governor that uh no the main question I had was really for Joe because the storm water management system is something that I don't remember seeing before uh in this board and so I didn't completely understand it to be honest uh you know how how it works and how it's in and how it's maintained maybe Joe and so just quickly for everybody's benefit right the this is uh a CeX is is the proprietor yeah um this this chamber system um the details that are on the plans are standard specification details from from the uh manufacturer this is uh a design that's used in a lot of residential applications to keep a shallow system that then allows for infiltration um over a larger area think of it more traditionally as like you would see in a septic bed you have a a larger area more shallow that then can recharge in as opposed to vertically stacking in what would be like a a concrete pre-cast triwell so those concrete systems um per each each dryw have a fixed cost and then you have the excavation cost and back fill around them these systems they're made um they're arched plastic materials um and so they can create them extrude them for a cheaper price and then you can have a an very cost effective way of addressing storm water infiltration for your mitigation at shallow depth so this is something that over time we'll probably see more of these specked in town because there are areas of town where there's sensitivity to groundwater and so this this type of design is more feasible in that location if they were to find that they dig six or seven feet down and they're starting to hit groundwater it it would be viable to do this as opposed to a 5 foot deep pre-cast drywell yeah so it's more suited for high water level yeah leaving everything at it you know shallow depth we're talking about a patio area and everything's going into a trench chain staying at a low elevation when it gets off of your patio and it gets underground and then it stays at a low elevation as it goes into the recharge as opposed to kind of dumping deep into a manhole so to speak is there a different expense for one versus the other um I think there's they'll argue that there's certain efficiencies to scale on these systems because you know the plastic and the units themselves will cost less than per dryw concrete because you're essentially buying a pre-cast manhole with holes in the side of it when you buy a drywell um the these systems it's really more a cost of Excavating and then back filling the stone than the pipes themselves it's labor it's yeah it's labor more than the parts so this I mean with the drivew you still have Labor to not to not to tell you to do it but you know you these you can put these things together you could kind of connect them all yourself they're they're simple enough to follow yeah you don't have to be me on the weekend one you can be a true weekend warrior with these but it's one sorry if if if um the water level wasn't an issue is one uh preferable to the other no that they're equal products in terms of the mitigation they provide okay yeah they relate to like a Lee field yeah simar I mean they really are more like a septic leech that that they're shallower and meant to be shallower was that something a new is that a fairly new development those these uh these have been around for probably close to 20 years ever since HTP pipe became it's surprising we haven't seen more of that yeah um you see them in I mean I've seen a fair number of them consistently over the last 10 years but I aren't surprised we haven't seen we've probably only seen one or two in the last 20 applications we also tend to get frequent flyers with our board uh and the professionals so they have kind of tried and true details that they stick into those so they they have their the usual yeah you have your yeah and can sorry can you use this area on top of it that's like pressed you can yeah you can certainly like you could use it as a lawn area to play on things like that um I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend and and the manufacturer has certain specifications on these for if you were to say put them under the patio um but you would not put these under a driveway they're not H20 loaded for they would they would eventually crush or on top of yeah or right or a shed with you know um a lot of equipment in it things like that so you have to watch exactly what you put on top of yeah but they're meant for open lawn areas like just really the kind of same restrictions you would put over a re setic area okay I have a question yes on this zoning table the you're looking at lot area 30, 34669 34 669 proposed nothing changes but when I see lot coverage to the bottom 20% is what's allowed yeah existing is 22.8 going up to 28.5 there's no change how does that number change there was a what do you mean that you're saying covered lot area is the same what's the variable that changes if you look in maybe lizes yeah they're incre they're adding that patio area they're adding the want to make sure that yeah they numbers are all right makes sense you double check the numbers yes it's the last yeah I did and it's in my report on page two um what they have existing so what they're adding is the pool uh and the coping around the pools adding another 760 Square fet the patio is adding 1,185 Square ft and the equipment pad I think for the pool um would is adding 32 square ft oh I see so it went or it is proposed to go from an existing of 796 to 9,883 okay I see that while we're on it right let me just clarify that for you too um so in the drainage calculation there's the increase of 1977 Square ft right but that includes the significant area that is the pool and the coping right so 760 of that 1977 the storm water system is designed as if the pool is patio and draining right the pool is going to evaporate it's going to be replenished by the runoff in heavy range it's going to overflow so we have that accommodation but the system that's proposed is always is proposed that storage greater than required minimum but it's also creating a little bit of fact anytime we do a pool application creates a little bit more factor of safety there have more ability to recharge um so essentially what you wind up with is our minimum requirement of 4 in over the area could probably accommodate closer to a 5- in STM because of that I I have a pull in the backyard I've never seen it over because of rain never I mean there always seems to hold L rain falls in I heard it only overflows when you do cannonballs into yes talking about my we thank you does the does the current existing 22 point 8 include whatever um coverage exists with the above ground pool or how are we accounting for that that's not a permanent structure yeah it doesn't I I didn't count it because it's it's temporary it's not yeah I don't think it would should be counted yeah okay no that comes down that can come down over right um and they and they do not have an existing this is a pre-existing non-conformity there is no for the 22.8 yes yeah you didn't add anything to the ground no that's I think that when they redid the house from the original Ranch this what they came up with 22.8 so I assume how long how long ago was that five five years about five yeah so I assume they got permission for the 22.8 because they built the house that way oh so so it's not a pre-existing non-conformity it's actually conforming it's been it's been it's been granted well okay yes but it's exacerbating what the variance was granted I understand what's going on today but I'm saying the 22.8 was we we gave them a variance for that law lawfully existing non-conform right there what we sort of that's the kind of the best way to describe yeah it's not preexisting it meaning it wasn't before the zon yeah yeah if it was only 5 years ago it was within it wasn't before the Z so wasn't approved right so it wasn't lawful Unless somehow the construction people office right it's round two of the variance relief yeah right seems like we have a lot of those the rear pool on the rear deck might not have been no no no no it's the house itself with the driveway and everything the house was turned into a from a one story house to a two story house and much bigger in area plus a larger driveway so when they did that they went to 22.8 so it was probably the driveway that yeah driveway did it it's yeah it's it's probably it's probably the area of the driveway rear of the home that large driveway that's and and they did put their plans in so somewhere on the plans it should have said that I'm surprised it didn't uh do you have any when what is the method of accessing the pool from house is there a current is there going to be a walkway or is it just over grass or what what is there to access we were still if I guess the Far West Side you can come up and then go around but we're thinking of doing a little walkway guess from the left edge of the house to come up this way you mean to the right of the driveway to the left of the house yeah yeah because you have a deck there and then you have the paper patio so well you go down the deck right where you have that main if you're looking at the paper for the driveway they have like it's a big Archway door so that's it's going to be to the right of that where we're going to put a fence and that doorway is going to be in blocked out by the fence okay but is I don't on your plans I W see a walkway it's not yeah it's not in there yet cuz still kind of more C so it's going to more coverage more coverage now right am I correct it's going be more C if it's a PVE so for your sake if that's what you want you would have to clarify if we give you the application permission tonight then you would have to come back and clarify on your plans where you want that walkway and your fence would have to be and all those other conditions and that would have to be looked at by our plan or an engineer and the calculations of the overage would have the Improv coverage would have to be corrected um you'd essentially have to come back to the board to get another variance I have a question what constitutes as like an official walkway exactly anything anything that goes on the ground like any and if it's not grass it's a walkway okay so if you're putting slate if you're putting brick if you're putting uh cement if you're putting Stones it's impervious if you leave it grass it's perious some people don't care if they walk on grass between the grass and the PO uh some people people prefer a walkway M anything that goes on that lawn that doesn't absorb water is coverage MH um I know it's not it's it's pretty close to the house so it's not going to be you know from what I can see it's only going to be a small little area but it's still some coverage area so I mean that that gray area is all Pap patio right so it would be from the left of that paper patio to to the the edge of where your your um decking is going to be right let me just see can I take a look what you're looking at yeah it's it's that little you have the pink house you have I think it's the same thing so it would be like right over here right right right so so these are steps down right um no these These are steps this is no there's no steps this is like right so the deck the deck and the and the papers are they accade the wall no this is where the this is where the there's a wall this side and then it would just go right in here says block show them on this one this is this is the paper patio looks like has a wall around it have the this wall W is is short right the top the top of the walls have the patio and then the lawn right so these steps so we were envisioning you you'd be coming out here and then getting to that area well that that's just this is one of the options that's if we don't make a entrance this we were thinking of doing that but then also this is the steps from the deck so we wanted to come in right in here and put the fence and do the fence this is all open this way here the fence would come off the side of the building to the rear straight and then cut along the parking lot the driveway so if they do it in the short area with the steps there what what would be the coverage if any what need like a 4x4 a type of find the scale he's about to scale it from just his mind from his pen P CAP he's an expert an expert I'm allowed to do it this way did you not know that the end of a big that little that's in is it really know the inside TR come on I'm impressed right u i mean we're talking about probably five 10 10 by 15 is conservative 10 by 15t yeah of an area infilling between that's so it doesn't even have to no I going to say much less than that no it really only have to be about 4T four yeah 4 to six by 12 we we discussed doing like just a few pavers just for the Aesthetics of it not for I understand well let me put this way it's better we give you VAR we're not doing for that extra coverage then for you to now be not performing yeah and have to come back so this way you have the choice when your contractor's there you may just say you know what you just do this area they just the bud do it right and it's small and it's it's convenient and it gets the job done that you want you actually want that don't want grassy feet walking in and out of your house yeah don't don't try to Chin on the variant because then you're going to wind up coming back before us and said oh we need another 10 ft it's not worth it um what would be the added coverage so we have conservatively 50 sare F feet I would go to 100 give 100 so what would that change on the on the numbers then okay so it would go to 9,983 which divided by 3469 34 you said 9983 we're looking at uh 28 well 2877 so that's what 28.8 you want to call it that 28.8 or you want to go 29 just to make sure well 28.7 s if we want to be really precise with it that's I'm sorry Mr chair I mean that's yeah why don't you do 28.8 28.8 fair enough so we're going to go and we're going to give you a variance if we do give it to you it's 28.8 so that way you have that option of making it solid from that point to the to the de right thank you um you know no one says you have to use it but if you don't have it and you use it that's a problem yeah um so you know as we told the last applicant we always want to make sure what we give you is what you're going to need and use if you don't if you don't use it you get 100 square foot shed for free later there you go one day you're going to need a you're going to need a shed for those you're going to need a shed for those pool noodles yeah yeah yeah talk to me about sheds tonight stop you don't like sheds I know you and sheds we're working with the planning board on you have no idea I know that can we shred some light on that please I'm but I'm yeah um you're all night let's hope that okay is there any other information you want to give us about the project have we touched upon everything that you well as far as the kitchen area that's included in the coverage right yeah we just a matter of like going to no I understand I just want to make sure that if if if it is installed we're covering that okay so it may not be done immediately but at some point you're putting that little kitchen uh outdoor kitchen area which is going to be a grill and a and a and a little refrigerator do they need a variance for that if it's going to be on top of what's already coverage is that on top of what if if they put it on top of their patio which I see in one of you need a double impervious coverage variants yeah your fun no if it's on top of something probably not because it's already Sav and from a question down yeah no I just want but it doesn't it doesn't look like it is cuz Pao is over here it's over here oh it's on top of that okay that's true it's on top of the decking it's going to be it's not going to be outside the deck it's going to be on the deck okay so you don't need extra for that no but I mean it's just that we in our approval which I assume will come is that we are recognizing that you're going to do that at some point okay do you understand the conditions as we've been talking about them especially in our reports and as I said most of your experts will be the engineer should know exactly the Builder will know about any uh comments by our experts as far as okay I had one more question sorry um are you guys installing any lights like like ground lighting or anything with we on the pool um in the pool I think they like the setup comes already with there might be lights inside what about walkway lighting anything like that I don't think we got that far okay in the event that you decided to install some walkway lights would you stipulate that any lighting would be you know directed downward or shielded yes as we mentioned to the other right so if you have if you want to put some uh guiding lights along the edge it would be they would be uh directed downward not outward although you you don't have any neighbors behind this uh it's all it works um ask question yes go ahead it's been nice how you know we've been able to kind of help you kind it's not a solid plan yet um but how does that happen when uh you know the contract C gets on site and he says hey why do we do this why do we do that is he somehow obligated to watch this video and no no no what we're going to do is they're going to finalize their plans in accordance what we just told them as far as right what we do once the construction's all said and done the applicant provides the construction Department with an as built survey that as built survey if they're over what they're allowed then they're back to the board or they have to remove something or they have to remove something so traditionally there's also a resolution that we pass that gives guidance to whomever is concerned the Builder the contractor the homeowner it's it's normally what they have to do including the inspector so the inspectors go out they take the resolution and they say inspectors don't this is well they should this is what's approved now the inspectors it's not the inspectors don't get involved with the resolutions that's not their jurisdiction okay well everybody else involved should yeah they do yeah Gary what we'll do before they even approve the building they will have to go back and and modify these plans so that they conform with our with our conditions and what we just explained and different and then once they do that it's reviewed by our experts to make sure they complied with what we said and then we sign off on them and then they build it according to that you think that's what the house to buil I have no idea that's a good question but I think that you know the the problem I think there was I think we all think it was probably the something to do with the drive one who knows but uh you know that that you know let's hope that that doesn't happen because you know we saw that little creep here that little 22 Point think so you know that but touch on what your have question back to the application the matter at hand um Liz brought this up and I was thinking the same way with with the storm water management and uh our engineer did a great job I think of explaining the concepts of this uh system that I really haven't seen before but I've seen it in other applications such as French drains for basement drainage or other areas like that you're just channeling water away one of the things that Joe you talked about in your report was that the uh that the homeowner is going to be responsible for what you said effective management and maint maintenance with with going forward so it's a simple looks like a very simple type of uh collection system what can go wrong with it I mean is it like going to be clogged with silt in a year two years like leaves it's basically you know the swell collects looks like the swell collects the the water typically filled with leaves and Mulch and everything else yeah you're looking to protect the infiltration system right the so the Arches the plastic arches that's where the the mass of water sits and then the rest of it is in the stone in that backfield area you're you're looking to protect that by having conveyance to it so if we were doing this off of a roof area our code requires gutter guards things of that nature to make sure that leaves and other material doesn't get into that system and clog it um in in a patio area that that trench drain is the protection so the detail of the the French drain we're talking about a very traditional French drain right of of a stone back filled area perforated pipe underneath and then there's a river rock stone at the top so that stone essentially landscape perimeter of stone around your patio will naturally filter out the sediments the leaves and they can be blown away and the water can infiltrate below into the wash stone and then get into the system without carrying with it a lot of sediment or other things that could clog the system so that's the regular maintenance that's the that's the design you know the design protecting it and then from there there's clean out points on on the system so you'll see these couple of inspection ports it did say optional though can we make that mandatory and would you do that is that something that should be done um based on you can go by manufacturer specifications on certain size number of Chambers cross connected together they'll have okay they the option the option is really the option on every chamber and then when you have certain amounts of Chambers connected together they're going to want inspection ports for the manufacturer detail so it's not optional you don't feel like doing you don't feel like cleaning out the system it's optional when it's and certain number stacked together if they were not to maintain the system and it was to fail then you know um we would see that through essentially code violation with a concern of water ponding in an area you'd probably notice it yourself first because it's next to your pool and your amenity that you're out there using and enjoying and you can't can't use the lawn next to it cuz it's wet and saturated um or your adjacent neighbor May notice that that wet area is encroaching into their property and then raise concerns with code enforcement so one of those two ways it's it's going to get addressed usually it's going to be addressed because you don't want muddy feet before you go back in your pool thank you and then last question on that is um we added a little bit of coverage is that an opportunity to you know continue the the swell towards that area is that even worth it do we need to do that or is there an opportunity to pick up anything from the driveway while we're there is that low cost so low hassle kind of stuff while we're already there could you just grab a little more water it's relative the 100 square fet is relatively di Minimus in that in that concern uh but the the the property does generally grade to the rear the driveway the the Pao the existing patio pretty directly straight back to the rear so anyway yeah anything that we're going to propose in that area to connect create connectivity it's essentially going to drain right towards that that strain it's all going to slowly go back into yeah and that and that drain will have the ability to take some of you know the driveway runoff that might run into the the yard perfect can go into there and then anything else is going to go into exempt conserved lands behind the property right and that drainage system will have the excess capacity to take some extra order from the driveway and wherever else it yeah some it's not going to be able to take all the driveway yeah but some of it some something will get absorbed there okay good I noticed we gained a member of the public do you have any member of the public do you have any comments on this okay what about question questions comments on this application do you do okay all right I close it to the public okay can I just just add one thing is that um section 124.5 on swimming pools has some regulations about lights so in the in the res whatever resolution just what are those that well it's uh section H subsection H lights if any shall be restricted to such lights as shall not be a nuisance to a joining property owners and shall not remain lighted after 10:00 p.m. so that's an interior pool no no that's that's not the pool light that would be in the no no no oh okay so so just like uh po around the PO F feston lighting you might hang up on poles that might be a couple feet over right oh I Liz what's the citation on that ordinance section okay so it's 124.5 um subsection H H okay okay thank you that's all going to be put in the resolution it'll be interesting reading so um any more questions by the board members no like me to summarize Mr sure sure okay all right before you guys delivery I'll just point out quickly applian here is Seeking a lock coverage ratio variance they're permitted 20% in the zone which is the R3 residence Zone uh existing loot coverage on this property is 22.8% they're proposing 28.8% you'll note that we revised it up from 28.5 um addition as far as stipulations conditions go the applicants agreed to complying with everything in uh our board engineering me board Engineers memo dated September 17 2024 uh that's particularly comments 3.1 3.2 3.3 3.6 3.7 3.8 3.9 four uh and comments 4.1 and 4.2 um as far as additional conditions go the only one I captured would be that um any exterior lighting walkway lighting would comply with Section 124.5 h of the ordinance and that's our Provisions governing pool lighting um I believe that's it Mr chairman thank you Jerry would you like to start the deliberation sure I think that uh the app the applicant did a nice job of uh presenting uh their needs for a variance here I think uh what they're doing is going to increase the value of their home and be a benefit to the neighborhood I think there's uh a way we can do this without having it um impact our our zoning ordinance or or I don't think it's going to uh do anything to impact your neighbors I think there's a lot of open space behind you water flows that way anyway it's the river I mean water goes down there but you've made good efforts your engineers made good efforts to capture uh the amount of water required by regulations to build such a type type of a development um plus our engineer stated that it might actually uh you know improve the situation now by capturing some of the water from your driveway I think overall it's pretty good and I'm in favor of it Tom I just I just think that given with the location right next to the open space uh there's certainly no objections from any of the neighbors I think the conditions that have beened upon the applicant are complete the ideas that especially the items that the AR engineer mentioned so with all those conditions and requirements I think it's a it's a good project okay Jonathan um yeah I would agree I think that uh the applicant has met the requirements for a c bulk variant I think that they've uh shown that the benefits of this will outweigh any of the detriments and it doesn't appear that it would cause any substantial detriment to the public good there's really no public here who would even uh testify to that and uh so therefore I would be in um i' would be in support of this and enjoy your pool Tom I also am in favor for the reasons stated previously by my colleagues um unfortunately you have a neighbor that's a real pain in the butt but you know did you see that you have it on camera no anyway all seriousness aside um know this this is a this is a great application thank you very much for coming for us thank Gary um I think you guys are going to have a great time in your pool you're looking forward to that coming for all of the reasons stated I I think that you've met the requirements of to obtain the C variance under the second subsection of of the um code there and I'm for the application R benefit of going last you don't have much to add these brilliant comments ahead of me um the stipulation seem pretty reasonable um and it seems a great thing so best of luck thank you uh I concur um I think that'll be a good addition uh we always need another Pool in the neighborhood everyone uh it it'll you know add to your enjoyment of the house and I'm sure you'll like it uh so I would be in favor of it um you already s up yes sir roll call motion motion I'm sorry motion to approve so move second okay roll call okay Miss Brennan yes Mr Rono yes Mr Flatley yes Mr jinis yes Mr Rosenberg yep Vice chairman Groff yes chairman GCT yes motion carries congratulations luck good luck good luck and like I said you'll have the resolution that'll outline everything do your plans accordingly we get them signed and then you you can begin if not this year early early in next available I'll email everything yes we'll be in touch thank you all right um we have the board discuss question of bylaws you guys want to take a 5 minute break and uh no let's take a little 5 minute break sure real quick go to the bathroom you know and then sit down and we'll look at the bylaws all right e e e e e e e e e e [Music] I guess this all right um we have a version of the bylaws which we gone over based on our comments last time yep and um you added a tire you you took out experts professionals yeah I'll just point out Mr chairman just looking you're all looking at the table of contents um just a couple Global changes I changed we eliminated the term board staff or experts we just left it at professionals because I think that makes the most sense makes it very consistent throughout the entire document um you're correct we added Section 1 colon 1-12 attire and I just point out Vice chairman Groff and I sat down and went through this entire thing so you know he's I believe he's pretty comfortable with how things ended up so um want to defer to him on this matter uh okay so we got a tire um also I added a section uh two colon 4-9 that's regarding site visits and personal when board members have personal knowledge of a situation um there's case law that suggests that you need to put it on the record if you're you know judging an application based on your own personal observations at least if that's been part of your Calculus you need to point that out so the applicant or the objector would have opportunity to respond to that you know that just makes sense we normally encourage people to go at the right exactly right it's just you know a matter of it being saying I looked at the property and this is what I saw exactly exactly um and that's really it as far as Global changes go if you want I could go Point by Point through the document but um I will just quickly hit uh a tire that was 112 um I pulled actually this language came from the University of Michigan yeah it was University of Michigan their uh their dress code policy it seemed to make you know see like very boilerplate stuff you know you're expected to be we you know professional be a professional appearance that means you have CLE clean neat clothes no holes or wrinkles your clothes aren't faded or worn out yeah you got to get that iron G before you come over here guys why notates dress code why you know what's funny I almost wrote Michigan State in there and I was wait a second I know there's like a whole issue with the two of these being named different how many people here are violating the wrinkle policy not currently look clean you're good come from work all day who enforces the wrinkle I have to allow extra time to go home and press my shirt if you want me to pull out wrinkles I can do that well how about if you what about tucking your shirt in I mean what about that that's a whole another stop I don't know um okay so we're going to pull out wrinkles just you know this again this is borrowed from their website I didn't think it would get too much of it um appropriately fitting no visible undergarments obviously you don't want people with you know you know what's poking out um free from offensive images words or logos again makes sense you don't need any how about thongs can you wear thongs well that is undergarment coming up we're good as long as not nobody wants to know what you're wearing know I mean like flipflops oh what did you think oh yeah Jerry come on uh you're right cover that real good and then uh it goes on just says you're expected to dress in business casual Tire I think that's what everybody wears anyway you know it's nothing again it's very straight you know no no jeans gym sneakers gym shorts right um also carve out for religious attire if you know nobody wants to wear something like that sure well you know head wear reasonable though of course those colors right gang color no gang col no gang color your team color this is like no no we're good we're good all right is there any other comments on any other sections um that we currently like you have uh site visits yeah that that's another thing I just wanted to hit on real quick Mr Sherman so if you guys go down to uh 24-9 that's a site visits by and personal knowledge of board members um this was lifted from another one of our boards uh the Bernards Township uh zoning Board of adjustment um they had this was part of their bylaws as I was kind of explaining before if you a board member makes a visit to a property you need to kind of you need to put it on the record yeah exactly to give everybody an opportunity to respond to it um this was more so of you know kind of leap frogging off of this um more of a question for Deb I suppose um what I don't know if we wanted to include it in the bylaws but what is like the typical process if a board member wants to go to a go visit a site did they go through you is it no no do we have a process the applicant signs a way of allowing us to do okay so we we just go on our own okay so there's no like ID badges or anything handed out or no we've talked about it over the years we can do ID badges in the new year that's okay we could always revisit the bylaws and them accordingly I just yeah I thought it might on our farad with magic mark right right I always tell the applicants too I say you know just don't don't be alarmed if you see a car parked outside like I think it's a given that nobody really goes on somebody's property right it's more of a just a look around yes I mean unless the homeowner's home and you introduced yourself you could walk up to the door and Wing the door sure you could I I think that some some are less Brave to do that I've never done that I've never seen the need to do that but yeah okay I think most just park on the street and just kind of take a look but I mean if it's a backyard and you can't see it from the street sometimes it's good you just knock on the door at your home you say excuse me I'm with the board I'd like to look at the backyard and they say fine at least they know you're there you're walking in the backyard we should um I mean as a practical matter it makes sense to go announce yourself before you get blasted with it sh yeah we don't we do not recommend trespassing without the knowledge of definitely don't do that I don't think you need the bylaw to tell you that but nevertheless um so that was one point I just wanted to bring up um cleaned up continuances there was one other section when it comes to board well towards the end um part three in particular two points um going out of order I'll start with um 33 that's the professional performance evaluations okay um I I know you guys are maybe considering doing something with that this year so these might have to get amended next year depending on how that process plays out but all this language was originally borrowed from the former set of bylaws that this board had um and it referenced you know for example the board of adjustment performance criteria I couldn't find any document like that so that didn't have right right so yeah I mean the bylaws have you know just kind of been changed here to you know say that that's going to be produced by the evaluation committee and you know again you guys can amend these Bas at any point in time so this is you know just pointing this out in case you know you want to change it later on and then if I could go back a little bit um three colon 1-1 that's um removal of board members and with this we're talking is purely about removing from the board we're not talking about if a board member's conflicted and you can't sit on an application um if you guys recall there was that memorandum that I sent out uh in August regarding removal of board members vacations forfeitures of office so I uh Tom and I were talk talking about it and we we thought it might be a good idea to and this is more of a discussion for the entire board um bring up you know as a disc for the board to decide here what types of behaviors do you think would warrant um removal from the board so the standard that the case law gives us is that um you have to be engaged in an activity of misfeasance or nonfeasance which this is quoting the statute directly or not the statute of the case law um says again misfeasance or nonfeasance which quote in view of the duties and obligations of the office as a board member substantially disadvantages the public okay so for example you know I I put number one FL or frequent non-consecutive unexcused or inexcusable absences you know you miss 70% of the meetings but they're not consecutive U flaker and violations of these rules what that could be is kind of up to interpretation um three disrupting is this all case law based on the case law or is that the additionally paragraph is the rest of it is not because this is a very unexplored area of the law surpris the only case on this subject surprisingly enough comes from the 70s it involved a board member who was an engineer in his professional career he told the board and the township that he was going to be away for eight months couldn't you know attend any meetings he was a planning board member if I remember correctly and um came back and then he missed another three meetings for a work obligation but he didn't get those last three meetings cleared by anybody wasn't permitted he ends up getting kicked off the board sues the town out of his own pocket and um he gets stated because the court found that the absences were excusable meaning that while he didn't get express permission he had good reason to exactly but that's where they come up with this entire okay idea of when you so this is supposed to be able to codify what I would in my legal opinion because I'm a very conservative legal mind I would say try to keep it as simple as simple and as tight to you know it being something that really disadvantages an applicant or the public in general like again frequent non-consecutive um absence example that's that's an easy sure yeah because you can't run a board with less members more that's that's a you know going beyond that you know disruptive at meetings what is that what does that cost wearing a thong flagrant violations of these rules there you go no I I understand I mean I I um and I just point out really quick Mr chairman if um the board isn't under no obligation to adopt any of the those right now or you know we could adopt the bylaws ases remove that little paragraph that I added just keep it at the base I I like the paragraph because it based on case law yeah the the flagrant violations of these rules MH I'm a little a little conflicted about because as am I to be quite the reason I say that is because it sounds like how many times do you have to violate the rules which rules do do you know some rules are more important than others so uh that has me bother a little bit because that was more of a suggestive it isn't as definable it isn't as quantifiable it isn't as as solid as I'd like it it's it's too wishy-washy is there anything to be learned from Sparta readymix makes it a little sof sorry is there anything to be learned from the sparta readymix case regarding like so with this SP of Ready Mix Diamond chip um the essentially the entirety of the the entirety of the board was then forcibly recused from the application and a whole new board was created that's actually a funny because of their particip yeah uh because of their participation in public social media that was a just just simply in their participation to read it and and be a part of a group that happened the group was against it but they were not providing their opinion but just something related to social media and a curent more current standard that that might be something that could be narrowly banded and pointed in there that is a good thing to bring up Joe that I think that deals more so with with conflicts on an individual application supposed to remove from the board that's definely something that's conflicts on indivual but but that that practice of speaking out publicly when speaking out publicly and and involving yourself in public interests that would inherently in favor of yeah or create some presence of bias yeah in any in any application that comeing forward sure the future yeah you can't go out how do our bylaws protect us that what do what that's you're suggesting putting something in well just just if it was worth a conversation for five minutes or if there's all right what about uh we do have stuff about non you know's that talking publicly about the cases that's in there if you look at um one call in 1-10 and one call in 1-11 that's ethical responsibilities and disqualification 1-10 yeah um that doesn't really to to Joe's Credit that the the sparta case that he's referring to is relatively recent so this I did not I wasn't really considering that when when I was putting these together but that might be something worth adding um I mean the basic rules are outlined here right you know you can't discuss the matter of a case outside of a hearing if you're you know within 200 feet if you're getting you know one Callin 1-11 um you know when you're own property within 200 feet you got to refuse yourself if you know uh you have some kind of professional association with the applicant uh familial Association personal or pecuniary involvement that might be reasonably expected to impair the board memb objectivity or independence of judgment I think that kind of covers that that covers that topic and I think it's just an example to point out to the board of somewhere where it's relatively innocent to participate in a Facebook group so that you can read the comments but by participating you're acknowledging that group's that's a general yeah and so you're in some way in their Camp just by participating in what is a private group what if the person dis AG on the Facebook but by you don't even have comment part so that case that the issue in that case was that by by entering into a private group so by asking to be allowed in and then the administrator of that group allowing them in they were acknowledging themselves essentially on that side of the fence with or without any comments they posted right and then even if you post the comments you're talking about yeah negative or even positive we talking outside outside the board right exactly and so it's essentially covered by that section in those governing rules already it's just worth kind of giving the example tonight so that you guys can understand how social media definable but I think it would be worth actually including social media yeah why don't we do that social media yeah U participation in social media uh which in any way discusses the application do we want to reference that case name too um consistent with the Holdings of or is it not that is it not specific enough yeah you you decide if you want to do that it hasn't been full pill through full appeals yet but yeah okay but I mean just to let everybody know on the board if we have happen to have an application before us that happens to be controversial in some manner or form and public is against it or for it or just caution don't talk to people outside the board don't me don't express your personal dis like or like for the uh the project that is coming before us because that could be taken as a bias for against that should be on any application not just whether it's right no I'm just saying no what I'm saying is usually the ones like controversial you have you have more of an opportunity to do that the ones that aren't don't normally bring that up but after it's approved or disapproved that's okay I wouldn't even do it then let me put it this way there's an appealed you got a problem so these applications that come before us the normal ones like the two we had tonight there was no public it wasn't controversial but you have a development that's controversial or you have something else that's controversial even after it's approved or disapproved and you go out there and start talking about it that will affect an appeal because you know now you have expressed you you're now giving the public or that person ammunition to say oh you see he didn't like that or he liked that application he had some bias the F process it's okay for example if I go to Taco Bell and eat it's okay yes but that's not see that that that's that's totally that are they open it no comment no comment com there no purple they took your no comment you know you're going to eat there come on but you know probably open I'm going there I've never eaten that Burger King let me let me put this way we had shop before everybody shops at shop so we can't you couldn't find the person in this town for it and you shop there right but that doesn't mean we're for what they're trying to do that just means trying to get mil yeah yeah you know what I mean uh you know it's nobody can can fault you for for using utilizing a public entity that holds itself out to the public like a store but you you don't want to say oh I love shop I have you know I I think they're the best thing in the world you you want to avoid that over exuberance what if you're just reiterating what you said in deliberation so like we deliberated tonight oh that's different you just repeat that that that shouldn't be a problem no no that's different because I would I would advise against doing talking about it in any way sh I think all you have to do is look at one colon 1-10 C and that forecloses everything that you're talking about right now and to the extent that you wanted to follow lizz's recommendation and add a social media aspect to that that's probably the correct place to put it yeah think so yeah no you it's just better not to talk about these things I mean 10 years later I don't care but you know don't do it immediately following anything that we just like the only thing I would say is speak to current or pending well if it's up on appeal but if it's not on appeal yet we don't know they're going to do it yeah but you can't be asking us to be quiet you keep to say to yourself why why do I need to do this like who benefits from this commense and your neighbor your friend your friend objector will just they'll understand if you say as a board member it's really I'm really not supposed to comment on this right if somebody approaches you and say why did you give those people a variance because they're disturbing whatever just say we heard the facts the board deliberated and that was the that's it you know very uh you know people don't press after that they just let things go you know I can't speak about it beyond that you know beyond what the board decision was that's all I mean your personal opinion should be kept out of it at that time because it's not a good thing yeah like it's one thing to say oh we you know as a factual matter we heard the application yesterday like last night tell them to go to the tape right exactly exactly yeah go to the replay Chris can I just ask you one question I've seen this discussed um whatever forums like the Somerset County thing about um you know obviously with the Internet it's different nowadays where people you might when you're looking at an application and be like oh let me look it up on Zillow let me look it up on Google Earth or whatever that's a good qu I think I know where you're going with this but go on well no I guess the question is to what extent can does a board member have to disclose how what they found that might be like be persuading them and yeah I think that t that ties into that section I mean I think a good example of that is tonight if you look at the Aerials of the property you wouldn't have seen the pool M right in the backyard the exist temporary structure but in their application photos you may or if there's an absence of them right if there's an absence of those photos in the application but you were to drive you were to drive past the site and you saw it you know it's it it's a good question to ask so that there way I noticed that there was right there was a temporary above ground pool you discuss how long it's been there how long the activity's been in that part of your yard since that's where you're proposing your permanent structure right it's worth in instead of sitting silent in overall it's worth utilizing those things as a point of discussion to increase the benefit of of the testimony on exactly right yeah typically yeah typically it'll come out in the questioning but Del Liz's Point you're you're AB you're right if if you guys you know let's say you pull up Google Earth before you come to the meeting and you're you're looking at it and that's you know informing how you're going to decide the application or gives you a PL of information that no one else has right you yeah exactly you need to bring it up you got to give the applicant a chance to respond cuz if you see something it's not actually there and then you're like well they got that stupid thing in the backyard so I'm not voting for this or or or yeah Google could be wrong or it could it's outdated sometimes yeah exactly so if you were to reference to accommodate that the bylaw the bylaw is nothing needs to be changed that's what I added with that uh section two okay so so we don't need to change anything to no I think we're just saying like when you're when you're participating in the public hearing you know if you were to go on Google Earth and use the sidebar to look at aerial from 1995 until today and you picked up on some information that's not in the application documents not presented by the applicant if you're going to discuss that as part of a cross-examination you should Source it right right right right so just to be a little more thorough in that you know I was doing my own research using Google Earth or whatever and I noticed that historically there's been some changes in use of your rear yard you had a patio you got rid of it you had a deck you had this you had that you know could you walk us through all that that because it was unclear when I looked at that also comes into play like when we had string hotel when they said we have existing non-conforming eating outside well you could have gone on some website or some historic site and looked at pictures of whatever that looked like so that would have come into play then because some sometimes you know people are saying well it's a pre-existing use it's a pre-existing historical use of that property uh and that we any board member or anybody could have gotten information off the computer or if you were to pull the information from a prior application on the property right that was not submitted by the applicant right right you were to go down to Deb's office and ask for any other records of a prior approval in 2003 you're going to reference something you know from those from imagery or something you should normally de's good at that she'll pull those out and give them to us right make them part of the packet yeah that we don't if it's in dep's perview we know about it um but I you know do everybody think about you know the the bylaws the way they are and the changes we've discussed let let me just ask one question I'm a little unclear on uh which which one we're back on uh two 249 yes so your comment on the on the right says we don't have to disclose personal knowledge but the B says we do have to disclose personal knowledge so I'm saying which way is it wait there's a body of case law indicating that board members need to put personal knowledge know on the record if they rely on such information or rendering your decision no I'm saying you do need to to put on the record you need to put on the you do yes okay whatever it may be right okay anything it's if it's informing your decision it's a fact that you're aware of that's out that happened outside of this hearing yeah you need to put on the records of the applicant not just the applicant but even an objector would have a chance to your fellow board members or fellow board members as well yeah I to their benefit but you know legally it's like due process right if you're relying on facts that are completely outside of the scope of what was testified to okay you know you're denying them due process do our own research and yeah my understanding I've always done that AB as long as we just close Chris we had shop right a few years back and I don't think the board said oh I shop there I shop there I shop there I've been there around the building said that we had guidance from the attorney we had guidance from the attorney on that we Alli on yes and I I came out and said it I said we all understand we shop it shop right yes but we're not you know we we don't consider that our conflict because it's not a personal same thing with the Sterling Hotel same thing with the was always said it's always said by by Ed or the ory yeah because you know we want to point out that it's a public it's open to the public anyone can go there as long as we don't have a financial insance we're not benefiting from it uh we didn't buy stock in it uh okay but U does aside from I don't know if we made any changes I think the only change is adding some language regarding social media so uh so with that said and the changes wait didn't Ed didn't you want to strike the on um what is it three colon one- one the grounds yeah I was removal the the sub paragraphs what's I kind of agree that the sentence that ends the paragraph before kind of does temper that it just says doesn't say something to the I know it does temper that but says may or may not may include or right these are just so just scrub everything such conduct may include on down and then just kind of leave it as you know somewhat ambiguous but hold on yeah that is I I don't like I don't I just don't like those oh two and three don't like that uh yeah I don't mind three because that that you can quantify but FL FL well maybe we just reward that uh well you have the word may they may include it's it's not it's not exit yeah but I I I I feel uncomfortable about flagrant violations of these rules because some rules are less important and I don't want you refer back to the ethical rule right violation of that subsection is yeah maybe we could just modify that to make it fragrant violation of rules as whatever I can tighten these up a little bit yeah because you know egregious yeah but somebody these rules are yeah you're getting into like a penny that's that's kind of the problem with this I don't I don't want to leave it up to somebody's interpretation of which role and what's flagrant and I think this and you think that yeah right you wor wrinkled you wore a wrinkled shirt yeah right flr you're constantly wrinkled tuck your shirt in well I mean don't you think that violation of the ethical rules would be conrete it doesn't think that's pretty but I want right I want that that tightens it up a little bit that makes it which will you're talking about not the and it's just not the pen and at the end of the day this is just a recommendation to the township committee which then would look at it and say we think that's flagrant or we don't think that's exactly so I think this is just for us again standard is we're not taking a person out back and shooting you know that's the township committee's job you're right absolutely right again the standard is that it has to be something that's substantially disadvantaging the public that's how it has to be just that U okay other than that is there anything else that we uh um I think I think you did a good job on yeah thank you combined with what we had and a a lot of heier Vice chairman thank you thank you thank you uh well you know sometimes we that's how we did the first set but we were we didn't have the benefit of a really you know attorney that was into it so we basically did on our own I like doing like the legislative side of this I think we did a Dar good job on the first one and you know now you you had the opportunity to see other people's PS which helped us yeah in the wording of it I I was telling Tom this is going to be when this is all set and done this is going to be the new gold standard that at least I'm going to use there you go there you go and I think we you're going to pass a commission on that right all right 's what's also good is any new member give them a copy of this right away start to get a Flav that's that's one of the reasons I wanted to do because people come on the board and they're totally lost as to the procedures or to what to expect or what expected of them this will give them a guideline and when they read this they'll understand a little bit more about how to conduct themselves and what a board does and and not along with the other information and going to the whatever their classes are will help a person be more feel more comfortable as as they s they sit here so yeah thank you thank you much just doing my job so yeah yeah and get rid of all this other stuff yeah get rid of all the bols and you know um so anything else what's coming up next de uh in two weeks you have another two applications that are doing additions with then and they exceed their impervious coverage oh I love that yes we have lots of impervious coverage lots of impervious coverage what's what kind of additions uh I don't remember off the top of my head okay all right but where they you know well I also got two new applications on my desk literally in the last 24 hours so the kind of increase the square footage of the home no but I meant fun no I meant are they bedroom kitchen decks you know that type all of the above all senior SES and family s was a game room so um so we we're going to be busy then yeah you guys are yeah pretty busy and there's but there is no meeting on um election day so I'm trying to get everything and I've got right now it's looks like two and two two for both meetings in October we used to always have meetings be no not this doing it no election day should not be a meeting because there's people that really I mean I I personally can't be here and and well both you and Tom work at the poll so a poll location mici yes it is yeah so how you I mean did they put no no no it's the polling is in not location but the clerk's office as you know is open for we're not here on Election library but it's part of the normally we've had we've had meetings on Election Day not on a presidential year yeah no this is the first time we've ever had an election day off since I've been invol but well no we had the last presidential you remember people not being here we didn't running all the last presidential we did was oh in 2020 it was on Zoom yeah it was on Zoom right was vote that was part of the so okay so the last presidential election yes it was on zoom in the you're right in the pandemic so all righty yeah cuz there was no motion election yeah we could if you want to do a zoom meeting on Election Day we can do that no we can we can Skip One all right guys uh motion to adjourn I have nothing else motion to adjourn second second all right all in favor e for