##VIDEO ID:lespkJnVCjM## mhm and you know accepting it and saying yes and and feeling safe doing it and having like that real you know this is why I'm doing this I mean for you it's so dominant that obviously it's you know it's Jack but you know here it's like you know had this not happen to Jack you wouldn't be doing this today no of course not so you know it's that turn of ends I mean I you know my book April Rain is is based on a you know local murder that happened and you know I don't know what happened to the girl who you know was murdered but if I've said to her mother you know if she wasn't murdered I wouldn't have wrote that book I mean you know it's like you just get that calling in the middle of the night or whatever that just makes you want to explore and find out like why and and you know like when you're saying that people make bad choices they're not bad people you know I mean and I do see that people you know Jack's not a bad guy I mean he made bad choices he made poor choices bad he knows it and he wants to use you know I guess the word is use like use you to help educate people because you know without his body right now and without his voice being heard to say hey I made a stupid mistake nobody do this you know he has a father who loves him unconditionally who not only is helping his son but listening to you know God the Creator the universe taking on this huge calling to help save lives so you know what I found in this uh in this journey um is that a lot of the recovering addicts that I have they've shared their stories with me they started with a a painkiller prescription painkiller from either surgery or at a party you know it comes in a a bottle from the the drugstore and so they're not just like shooting it up or no no they start that's how they start and um so I had one gentleman he was in his 60s he's a heroin recovering heroing addict he said he started it at the age of 59 and he's at a party and they you know he goes you know it's from it's from the drugstore it's not from on the street right so yeah so I'd rather do this than than do something I don't know what I'm what I'm doing yeah and you know my my brother took him for a surgery he was a little goofy so I'm going let me give it a shot well he took it and a few others did and he goes I'm the one that became the heroin addict of the group so you don't know which one you're going to be and what happens is you start out um you know taking the pills and then I got I tell a story of an athlete uh a college athlete he's doing uh 20 pills a day then you start snorting them and then your addiction your brain keeps telling you you want more and then you then you go to snorting heroin this one individual is doing 20 to 30 packets of heroin a day again the brain gets immune and then you get with he got with a friend she put it in him he put it in her and then after that he went off on his own and he became so it's a it's a process that starts here and you work your way yeah put a needle in your arm now I didn't want to believe that about my son at first but then I realized he went through the same same process so what I'm trying to do with the foundation is get in front of it what can we do is get in front of it and so that's why I try getting with the Middle School the parents things like that you know I think it's really beautiful how you know Jack reached out to you in a way to help you heal also because I can you know I I will empathize and imagine the anger that you may have felt towards him as much as you're you know dad and you know but as a father being you know going through the anger and The Madness of you know how could you do this and why did you do this and you can't get that answer and then you know turning it a little bit onto yourself of you know what did I do how did I not see this and for him to say you know for you to hear him say Dad I made a mistake you know and what the mistake was you know was even doing it the first time but continually doing it and you being able to love him unconditionally and and accept his apology and understand what his new mission is you know in a way because you know we know if if he hadn't ever done drugs his mission was really big you know he'd probably be producing movies or shows or things like that but very very Talent once he once he passed over um you know I've I've had these conversations with people who have passed over and like and I've heard many times like how you know when you're there before your time they find another purpose for you and you know I feel like this is his purpose now to help other people and you know and he's doing it also you know in an entertaining way you know so um even the way you are so approachable with people you know that they can come to you and feel secure and share their story yeah and I understand I mean I had a I had a gentleman come up to me at one of the Outreach dinners and he was telling me how he was a heroin addict and I was shocked that he shared this with me so openly and I said I go well why don't you just stop you know and he's like I can't I go well what made you start and his story really stuck with me because this was a guy in his 50s and he was married three children was a roofer self self-employed roofer fell off a roof had to have back surgery got on the drug couldn't work didn't have insurance didn't couldn't collect workman's comp lost his house lost his family next thing you know he's on the streets in pain can't afford health care and he's self-medicating himself right and this is exactly what you're talking about yes yes I am yes and the government even you know medical part they have to do something to help prevent that so again so I focus on is what you know we can do as a foundation um and uh and our our our mission again is to get in front of kids and educate and educate parents I I I'll have a gathering with uh I did this uh my last speaking engagement I looked at the parents I said how many of you right here in this office audience right now have prescription opioid painkillers at home in your cabinet or your drawer yeah that's sitting there unlocked while you're sitting here and they you see people like and I said so if each and every one of you right now when you leave here go home and lock it up think about how many lives each and every one of you will save yeah and that's what we do yeah I mean and so many times when you know if you do get that prescription from the doctor if you're having a surgery or something you know I mean they're prescribing him for sort of the proper reason but they're even overprescribing so I mean if they're having extra pills that doesn't need to be given so so again here's here's what what uh what we do as as as a family and Foundation I had an individual at the walk walking with another individual they didn't know each other the one individual was telling the other one that I lost my son he had his wisdom teeth out and he got hooked on on pain killers and got hooked and went progressed to doing heroin overdose and died the other woman called me up said what should I do so it's not my decision that's your decision but I said if you're going to bring that stuff into your house control it lock it up and she gave her son one after surgery cuz he needed it yeah in her mind okay she gave him one when he woke up and then she took the other 18 and brought him down to a medical dropbox at a local police station all police stations have that too A lot of them do and on our website you canp type in a zip code and you'll know wherever you are in the country um that young man will not be become addicted right yeah so that's what we do one one fact that somebody needs to know and so this these these individuals are very appreciative yeah so I want to talk a little bit one more time about the movie because there's a few scenes in there that I just was so heartwarming I mean really heartwarming so everyone there there was so many scenes you know but there was a scene where you know Jack you know in a way I felt like almost was fall finding like a love interest you know but it wasn't he has this encounter with this girl and they have a nice conversation and you know how did that part of the story come up because here you know Jack's at you and Jack are traveling you're at a hotel and you're going to be giving a speech and or giving a talk about the opid the opioid epidemic and you know Jack you know walks over to the pool mhm and there's a girl around his age yeah okay you don't want I know I don't want to give it all away but he has this conversation and and I want to know like you know how did that scene come to be very very easy so one night Jack came to me and he said Dad I want to tell you what I'm doing I said what he said I'm helping those that overdose cross over to heaven and I'm also helping those that lose an animal helping with their grief those are the two things I'm doing yeah it's beautiful there you go and I think that that scene touched me so much because I resonate with that a lot that's a beautiful scene you know as as a Christian as a florist um I've seen this transition where people are crossing over and you know as a florist I sometimes you know would joke in a serious way that I would be one of the five people that someone meets when they pass over because you know you're going to your parents you're going to you know the the doctors the funeral home they they travel with the family you know within the first 24 hours their spear when they come to the flower shop a lot of times I can feel that energy and you know knowing that he's helping someone helping others to help cross over and have that friend to hold their hand and say you know what it's going to be okay um on that side for those who do tragically lose their life but then on this side he's working with you to prevent people from having to meet him too soon educate yeah so it was a really beautiful yeah that's that scene we redid multiple multiple times I mean I can go we had rain come in we I mean I can go on and on and on was it was quite a quite a it took a lot to get that scene done I imagine all the filming but we e e e e e e all right e okay we're going to call to order the November 13th 2024 meeting of the Middle School building committee um our first item on the agenda is public comment is there any members of the public here let grab anyone on on Zoom okay um um let's move on to approval of the minutes we have um minutes from the October 9th 2024 meeting I move that we approve the minutes of the October 9th 2024 meeting second um any discussion okay seeing none um let's do a roll call vote and Marty can you call it I voting uh Nicole yes Josh yes Chris yes Lynn yes cariss yeah and Julie and yes for me right and yes for me cool okay do we have any correspondence no correspondents okay great do you want to take us to the new business certainly still so um so the agenda uh sort of lines up with the slide deck that uh kers in jwa have prepared for us tonight so I'll pull up that slide deck and and um make sure I have the right one and I think it kicks off with jwa and then it transitions over to cers is that correct yeah I think it's going to start with me versus yeah the other way and all right yeah so we'll start off with schedule and Christian feel free to jump in on design questions that may come up or anything so what um what we've been doing is trying to come up with a schedule previously our schedules went from um module one all the way through kind of schematic design and so what I've been putting together is schematic design through construction move in um Furniture move in and and trying to get a draft schedule together based on um where we are today so that's what you have in front of you that's um what's up on the well we be at that's just kind of a a more readable slide that's up there um versus trying to put this on there was very tiny to see um so what we're looking at is schematic design and I know we brought it up maybe one other meeting is um town meeting and I know we talked about November of 2025 um but we also have talked about the possibility of maybe doing a September town meeting so I don't know if that's something that um Lynn if that's something that's possibility or um something we obviously have some discussion about but it was just you know giving us that extra couple months helps us at the end of construction with um moving in over a summer break versus pushing it out to the following break kind of midyear Type move in um so I know it's just a couple months but that those couple months really help with that um move in date so uh it's something to talk about I don't know if you have any questions or any comments on it right now but so I just so I'm clear I believe we need a town meeting vote and an election or yes is it right or because it's a Deb exclusive so we'll need a ballot right we need town meeting what is town meeting voting on the budget the budget yeah the budget yeah so we'll have by yeah so we'll have estimates done by then so yeah authorization you did the town meeting vote first and then you went to the ballot yes okay that was for the high school no okay so yeah I'm going to have to narrow down that time okay next year we don't necessarily have an election on the ballot or an election on the calendar right for the fall for November right and I imagine you you getting our budget together for September would be a big hole um so I mean we could have a special town meeting just for this and then based on when we have the uh when we could have an election but just a normal course of business I think September would be very hard and does this tie into the discussion later on in our agenda regarding the project delivery method in other words yeah me one method or the other that could that could give us some leeway or take away some leeway perhaps or what we've been looking at is kind of both methods for construction and right now I think it still kind of giv us the same timeline but what and we'll get into it during that discussion but what having a CM on board will allow us to do is maybe get in there the summer prior to do maybe some site work um there there's um early site packages that we could do prior to you know it kind of goes in phases when you bid out when you have a a cm and again we'll get through that in the presentation but um the end date really kind of came out to be the same if I'm correct when we went through it right right trying to get us in by um September of 2029 to start 28 28 and and so the decision on when a town meeting is scheduled we don't need to necessarily figure that out tonight but not tonight no but we just want to as we go through this and we'll talk through the schedule a little bit okay it's something that you know the town would want to you know start to think about if that's feasible to do or if it's not then we can you know look at it and and the other question is does the town or the district want to have a sum obviously a summer the the best and easiest time to move in um would they be opposed to a midyear movein transition yes yes because what that does and and so on top of that is we can move in over the summer and then as long as we know in construction that we're you know 99 to 100% sure that the moving is going to happen in the new building we can start the abatement and demo of the William school that summer as well as opposed to waiting for the kids to move in and then you have CL class going on and then you're trying to do a baitman and demo of a building uh so it helps out with more of the kind of disturbance to the school as well um that hopefully by that time the school will be pretty close to being demoed and then it's really kind of just doing the field work and the new fields and you know the parking lots and up that so you feel like that all ties back to the timing of town meeting right we're trying to avoid any kind of time contingency where you have to delay the start of school a couple weeks or something because something happen that were was unexpected that that's why if we could possibly do a vote in September sometime in September I think we have a leg up on the schedule right um not the end of the world but it would certainly make everybody a little more comfortable and that that also gives Christian and his team just that little extra time to to make sure that they have their design done as complete as possible um and not really forcing them to force a design uh to get it out so we have that summer move in if it's in November but again I know there's Logistics on on the town side to try and see if that can happen but if you if you start a construction in the fall of 26 you'd have almost 48 months to get us open in the fall of 28 right it I guess I've always thought of construction as being 30 months in duration is it is it more than that no it's probably less than that it's probably two a 2year minimum but two two plus years would be more like so 24 months right it's probably sorry yeah that I'm sorry for my mouth was wrong yeah history major but yeah I was thinking that that okay so you you would need that full yeah so you you think of it as if you have say 18 months to build a new building and then you still have to do a baitman and demo in the field work so you still have construction but the kids could be into the new school gotcha what the the the thing that happens in between that is once the vote is there to approve the budget for the project the the design team still has to do their construction documents which is a 9 to 12 months you know period of time that to get those documents complete and in good good enough shape to go out to bid so that's that's the little part that we don't want to push them and have gaps in the drawings we want to give them ample time to to U get those documents together get them coordinated with the other disciplines the mechanical electrical Plumbing fire protection those those types of things yeah so the different phases of design on schedule here is design development then we move into 60% construction documents and then 90% uh through 100 and so that there as Alan just mentioned I think that's 11 months um to complete all those phases for pretty typical another part on that design pH that you can see that uh smaller dates that col has out here so what's interesting about that if you think about design development being a very long period but in fact you're getting the drawings to the estimators the estimators are looking at the drawings then you're doing a cost estimate then we're approving at a school building committee then we're sending it to the state then the state's giving us comments they get three weeks to come up with their comments we get two weeks to respond to their comments then we go into 60% CD so it there's lots and lots of like kind of steps and steps along the way and you do that again at 60% CDs and you do that again at 90% CDs so this is all helpful because it's giving you feedback on how the costs are looking as we continue to flush out the details of the project and you get lots of feedback from the state on constructibility and any concerns that they have so it is a very helpful process but it's a very regimented process that ends up taking quite a bit of time yeah just a reminder for that estimate process we will have an estimator on our side and jwa we have an estimate so there's two estimates going at the same time so then we can have kind of a Reconciliation we go through scope and cost to make sure that two different companies are looking at it the same way and see where those estimates come out and I probably shouldn't have been so abrupt about the midyear move in I mean I'm I'm assuming that's you know nobody likes it's not it's a lot easier obviously to do it over a summer and like I said doing a summer move in along with being able to start the abatement and demolition of the existing building is also a pretty big thing as well um the only people who prefer it are the furniture installers they prefer mid they're you're be the only District that's moving in in December so they have a lot more corre ability to meet the timeline whereas in the summer everyone's crunched right right so that's the only that's the only upside that I've seen from that process when do you think you would need a final decision on the timing of town meeting as soon as possible I mean if it's not going to happen we really need to set our schedule to know that it's not going to happen so October say or something like that they we're going to lose that that end of September period um just so we can kind of you know start locking the schedule down start understanding what dates uh the deliverables have to go to the estimators what dates have to go back to the state and those types of things really has to be finalized um fairly short order I said budget before and I was I was mixing at my town meeting so no you're right though we have to budget for a town meeting we have to budget for an election Ian those are oh I mean yeah but I was thinking if we're moving town meeting up by two months it's a crunch but we're not crunching on the budget we're crunching on we couldn't move we couldn't move the special town meeting up the the traditional one we hold we couldn't move that up to September we would have to have a separate special town meeting just for this okay we won't have free cash certified by then that's that's what I was thinking would be the problem okay it doesn't get certified till October so so there's no way so this is a entirely separate thing maybe okay we just have to plan for it yeah there's a lot of stuff I'm going to email legal counsel now and there's a lot of stuff I have to figure out like if if there's an amount of time you need between town meeting and calling the election how long they have to get to get ballots prepared um the holiday schedule around that time just things to sort out so I'll come back at the next meeting with some ideas great and we we recognize there costs involved in doing this as a special um but it usually it's it's minuscule by comparison to absolutely the scope of the project absolutely okay yeah so essentially um again the goal of this schedule is to get us in by the uh the summer of 2018 um and giving the design team enough time that they need to to do a proper design um and again we'll go through um a CM at risk versus a GC bid and kind of what the pros and cons are of that uh later on in the in the presentation but if there's any questions on the schedule here at this point then we can certainly answer these now okay if question actually if we did a midyear move in I know you were saying that December is helpful in the sense of we would be the only folks in that position but are they genuinely going to be available over the holiday break in December or might we find that we are facing with even more of a crch with getting Services typically that furniture move in process is like a six week process so the building is almost complete Furniture installers are starting to come in we're doing our punch list looking at you know you missing need the little touchup paint here and there and things of that nature so they wouldn't be moving the furniture in just over that rate okay so they would start the crunch is that you would be moving your students and staff over during that break and so that's that's the tricky part for sure and you both have some experience with that midyear move is oh yeah yep yep yeah it's a crunch and it's it's stressful it's it's it's through the holidays where they don't really want to be packing up their all their belongings and making sure that they're all ready to go so when they leave to for the break the holiday break they they have all those things that now has to be moved into the new building and then unpack it you know sometime between when school starts and and through after the new year starts CU typically what happens we'll give each teacher a number of boxes you know the principles usually let us know they get two boxes three boxes five so you let us know no not bringing everything so essentially we we set the teachers up with boxes so before they will be slowly packing before they go on break and then we'll have the movers come in you know they'll all be labeled and we bring them to the appropriate classroom so when they come back their stuff is in boxes all the new furniture is there but then they have to unpack you know kind of slowly as they're trying to teach as well so realistically we'd be looking at a very strong possibility of an extended break for the middle school because there's going to need to be time for people to do both ends of that we we can't expect that people will have a fully functioning building while also packing while also unpacking so realistically we need a little bit of time on either end there for that I think they just did it yeah I we I've never worked with a school district that's extended their braks on either end it's kind of just been your free block or they stay after for a little bit and pack their stuff up and hopefully that helps with minimizing the stuff that gets packed because a lot of these classrooms have stuff that probably you don't want brought over to the new school so it it kind of helps with that process to be like okay if I have this limited a time to move stuff I'm just going to pack the necessities and then sure I'm just thinking when we come back on January 2nd we can't expect people to hit the ground running when they are returning to room right so yes that is certainly a discussion I just I'm just I've never worked with a school district that's how much more complicated is this when you're talking about combining two schools into one exactly it feels almost not doable even more complicated yeah absolutely I mean you could be creative with the scheduling of a professional development day or something to to allow a buffer now you're changing bus routes right and pick and all that the high school did and year move that's right February that's right move from building to we should talk about we should talk about what that looked like so yeah so those are the obviously the complications of a midyear move so um so ideally we move in the summer correct but just at least want to lay it all out there that you know those are kind of the two different options as as far as the difference between a September and a November Town yeah okay V yep yeah all right Christian great this is a uh we just wanted to kind of update the committee on what meetings and um uh site visits we've had so uh a bunch of folks did make it out to Walpole for to take a look at their new Middle School um which I hope was uh was was helpful ational um it's a a school for a thousand students um but was similar in some regards they were com combining two different middle schools into one uh it was being constructed on a on a pretty tight site on the top left that's a picture Fontaine was the um uh construction manager um you can see the existing school on the left there with the old roof um and they were almost done with construction uh on the right of Walpole Middle School um took a few select slides um we had folks there from our office who were really focusing on kind of interior materials which was helpful always helpful to see um other projects this is um tape Architects um a strong Architecture Firm out of Boston um so you can see a new kind of science lab up there on the upper right um they had a very large Auditorium um very formal um so that was interesting to see uh gymnasium with plenty of natural daylight um and then kind of how they step back the building was interesting so um on that middle uh photo you can see they had nice daylight coming down the corridor which was open to the cafeteria to the left but actually um as I understand that the gymnasium is on top of that cafeteria like directly to your left past that kind of wood ceiling element um and so part of the cafeteria was able to be open but then part of it was lower and under the gymnasium Again part of I I imagine uh you know just the constriction from the from the footprint on the site um but always you know great to see other schools in in process and I don't know if folks that were on the tour have any other thoughts or additions I like the the durability of the materials that they chose seem to be solid building y really liked how much light came in um naturally throughout the building I also really liked how many sort of spaces there were for student collaboration um um and just kind of tucking in with a group of people outside and near the library they had a lot of seating areas they had a lot of creative uh spaces for students to use and they had a really strong focus on how they could use the building as a community resource so they've expanded their middle school um after school extracurricular offerings substantially and they set up the building in a way that when it's used by Community um use on the weekends it's easy to close off portions and leave other spots open so it just made it more a little more bang for your buck as it were um which was really nice to see great um so then we also had a meeting with um most of the faculty Excuse excuse me on a professional development day on November 5th um which was fantastic in the um at the high school um and then we've tried to have a bunch of these targeted meetings um to try and get you know more specific uh information and feedback from folks um we're about halfway through that process um we're meeting with core academic tomorrow um and so I've got you know short little very brief Cliff Notes from each of these um coming up on the next slides so this was uh the presentation to the faculty and um we'll certainly we just got this PDF from um vason are um uh folks that are helping with both the um programming and also with the furniture um helped orchestrate the meeting so they just got um all of the feedback they used a program called mam meter to get feedback from the teachers as we were presenting so Dory opened it up to talk a little bit about you know what goes into the process of design and um thinking a little bit about um evidence-based design and really you know what impact student learning um certainly you know the most important part is the teachers in the curriculum but the building does play a part and there has been a lot of development over the past 20 years and particularly the last 10 years of really trying to quantify that um and so looking at things that matter the most seem to be indoor air quality um access to to Daylight um access to views being able to see and then also there's been studies on you know the difference to be able to see 10 ft out of the window versus further than 10 ft out of the window and being able to see something green um and how how important all of that is um in in brain development um so we were asking the staff to think a little bit more broadly so you know a lot of them you know want to focus on you know my student deaths are too difficult right now and so uh want to think a a little bit more about how students um can become better Learners as opposed to the classroom we focused on this idea of four different environments that students can learn in uh a campfire situation which is Illustrated here where you know somebody's in charge could be the student a student could be the teacher um people are gathered around learning from that uh singular person uh The Watering Hole uh you know a small group gathered around figuring things out together uh a cave more individual uh quiet learning on on on their own and then life is you know more uh learning by doing um being outside and and um life experiences so it was great to kind of talk about those different elements with the faculty and get some of their feedback um so on the right there is one of the portions where uh teachers were just um uh submitting their responses um electronically on you know what does the watering whole experience provide to middle schoolers um and so it was really interesting to hear you know collaboration obviously was a very strong one um but then everything from you know problem solving to Safe spaces um and then a little bit of feedback on you know not just a hallway floor um so you know getting a little bit into the design at this point which was which was really helpful um next slide Mari so these are a little bit hard to see but uh we then tried to kind of quantify how much time in the past week uh faculty felt that their students were learning in a campfire or a watering hole or a cave or a life um uh uh situation and then what they would like to see is the slide to the right um and so they're asked to rank rank it from zero to five um and so interesting to see that um you know life student L Project based learning um had a huge jump of what teachers are used to doing in the past week to what they'd like to strive for in the future um and so our thinking is now how can the design help support that and this was an interesting question at the end is just um imagine yourself Walking The Halls of the new long metal Middle School how do you see learning happening um and so it's interesting to hear and we kind of felt this throughout the day teachers talked a lot about what's going well at the middle schools now which I think you know hearkened back to Marty's presentation of the msba and so um you know trying to build off of that success um which I think was was really helpful to hear so that was a great it was only an hour uh so we packed it in as much as we could um but but great to get that feedback from the from the staff as a whole um any questions or interrupt me as as you see fit I'll just keep kind of flying through here so we had a meeting on uh tell data and AV and instructional technology um was super helpful um one thing that this brings up is um at the at a later meeting we will eventually need a list of items from the district that you want to be proprietary um that means typically when we list uh what materials a contractor allowed to use in the building we have to list three called or equals so for the ceiling tile they could use you know ceiling tile from three different companies but if there's a specific reason on why you need a common one is the door hardware all of your District door hardware is schleg so you want schle door Ware on your new school so uh they can get it from different suppliers but it has to be schle door hardware and so some of this comes into um it um items so um Access Control uh potentially the district might be interested in having access as proprietary the building management system um maybe automated logic should be proprietary um so no need to decide that now but these are things for uh for the district and the building committee to to start uh thinking about um technology needs was also really important so at the end of schematic design we'll have a budget again so we'll have the construction budget and then we'll have this kind of separate budget over here which is Furniture fixtures equipment and Technology um and so it was great to understand where the district's coming from in terms of the technology and from that initial conversation which again um if the project is passed and we're able to go into design development we'll go into this in much much greater detail detail um but great to learn that it does look like we will have um you know that the district has made enough um investments in the it infrastructure that um that that technology budget seems like it will um be sufficient so that was great news um meeting with custodial uh we were talking a little bit about uh finishes which was great to get again very early feedback um and again this will be something that we will come back to you this you know these change a lot during the cost estimate process um where depends on how the Project's coming in and then again we will go through this in much much more detail when we're in design development and construction documents we'll bring in samples uh the building committee will be able to you know feel and touch the the different options um but a good place to get a starting point um and just a general understanding at at this early phase so looking at something quite robust for the hight traffic areas a porcelain ceramic tile um looking at a sheet good like lenium in the academic areas um a rubber floor at labs and also at stairs which is pretty typical uh sealed concrete at the utility spaces have been you know custodial closets and things of that nature um carpet and offices um and where we want a quieter softer environment um epoxy resin so sometimes it goes to Cory tile um but epoxy resin is another option in the kitchen and servery that was great to get and then we talked a little bit about walls uh looking at a Wain coat like a wall tile W coat in the corridors um ceramic tile in the bathrooms um so again early days but great to get that feedback now first can you contrast some of the choices that are sort of emerging here or that you got feedback on with with what the Alternatives might be so lolium in the academic areas instead of or versus what or porcelain ceramic tile in the high traffic areas versus like what what are some of the yeah other options sure so um porin ceramic tile is well so more expensive than that is a uh an Tazo an epoxy Tazo flooring um and so potentially we can have that in some space bases or you know maybe the main entry but not the you know main corridors these are things that we'll kind of evaluate as we go down the the cost estimate um uh path um we've certainly done schools on tight budgets where we do porcelain ceramic tile in the main lobby and then switch to a lolium in the hallways um so not as robust um but if you're on a on a severe budget you know those are the kinds of decisions that that have to be made um for the academic areas uh lenium I think is you know by far what we prefer and strongly recommend um vinyl tile is another option vinyl composition tile um and the lolium is much better in terms of the uh indoor air quality um aspects of it the off gasing um and has um come a long way in terms of it's finishing um you don't need to uh um put a wax on it like the the old vinyl tile so it's a lot less maintenance um so again many things to consider there rubber same thing um it's a little bit more robust than lolium so helpful on the stairs um in utility spaces sealed concrete is typically what we do there's nothing wrong with it unless for some reason the district wants Cory tile or something more expensive in those spaces um carpet is definitely a a decision between carpet tile and uh sheet good carpet um in general we've had more luck with carpet tile as of late sometimes that you know there's issues with it coming up um but that seems to have gotten better and it's much easier to kind of repair and we place sections at a time um and then epoxy resin uh I think is a little bit more expensive than Cory tile for the kitchen and servery but really comes down to a district preference on that on that one can I can I a question I maybe this but are there any like decisions that are pending for the schools or for the school committee that affect how you think about Design Elements like the one that comes to mind is the the thing about cell phones and whether we want kids to have access to cell phones in school would that would kind of accelerate some of those decisions or are there other things that are on your mind I'd have to think about that but brings to mind you know are there are the schools that have built in places for cell phones in classrooms or something I wonder if there I wonder if there are things like that that yeah yeah the only other thing that comes to mind is like updates that we're going to make to the curriculum or you know changes that might change how you think about what technology you want in the classroom right yeah I think you know certainly we have some curriculum adoptions on the horizon and I think you know Middle School is a going to be a focal area for us in the next few years I I don't I can't think of how that might change the layout and design of classrooms necessarily but um I think the move to a good example of what you're talking about would be like the move to steam programming at the middle school which requires a certain type of classroom I suppose you know um so that's a good question I think it probably would want some time to think about that though yeah that's a great question J and I think one that really we skipped over a little bit but on the previous one on it whether to go with a large flat screen or an interactive projector um that's a huge decision that again we'll use this as kind of a starting point and help set the budget but should gets a lot more feedback and discussion I was just thinking about one of the rooms that we saw when we um did our last visit um that was using that was for their steam room and how so much of it was movable um not just the furniture but even that at the top they had the running things for plugging things in so it just made it very usable space um very versatile for whatever the needs were as the steam program continues to grow and change over the years you know it seems to be even among the staff some interest in in application uh you know real world authentic opportunities to apply what they've learned and so what what type of furniture does that lead us towards or what type of room design does that lead us towards those are the things that yeah absolutely great we had a a good meeting with uh kitchen folks and with our we have a specific kitchen consultant on the project um so helpful for them to to meet and talk directly um I don't think anything too you know the one of the more interesting was to uh have a variety of um table sizes and eating spaces um but not much of an interest of a built-in seating area that again trying to keep it as flexible and open and um as possible so that was interesting to hear um bathrooms is a huge topic these days in schools and so we will be back um with with uh with many options to show you and and kind of go through but um great to get some initial feedback um definitely some some concerns regarding supervision and and bullying and vaping um two entrance bathrooms um and so that's often called like an airport style bathroom um there was uh some talk about having a shared sync between those two which again can just kind of help keep it feel open and visible um talking about locker rooms was great um again in terms of trying to make sure that we're utilizing that square footage as efficiently as possible so um more toilet rooms and a few changing stalls um and we met with the uh Athletics folks and they they agreed with that um so again good to get some initial feedback and we'll go from there um yeah so we were able to meet with um with one of the gym teachers um and great to get some feedback on uh outdoor spaces as well as indoor spaces um I think the plan so far again right we're very early on but the site plan was kind of showing a more formal practice field and maybe even bleachers on the sides um and he expressed you know more interest in having as much play surface as possible not so much interest in the in the bleachers which I think makes a lot of sense um a huge benefit in permanent lighting a big topic that I think we'll save for another night because we'll have a lot coming up from call years but uh is a potentially of a turf field so again something else to kind of put on folks Radars to start thinking about um whether that would be helpful whether we should um try and include that in the budget sometimes that can be an add alternate or deduct alternate um where we're not sure if the project can afford it or not um but we first want to understand if that's a a desire from the the building Committee in the district um in terms of the indoor uh looking at you know a a center divider curtain so that they can use the gym um two different sides of it at the same time um interest in in the volleyball nets um six basketball hoops kind of you know four for practice and two for a for a main um High School size basketball court um and good to get into the details of kind of sound in the gym and and things of that nature so um and we talked about alt PE as well so uh yeah very helpful so that's the summary of those meetings we've had so far again we're meeting with core academic tomorrow we've got more um staff meetings coming up but any questions on that so far great I'm going turn it over to col all right uh so as I mentioned earlier so there's in construction there's two different we call them delivery methods for construction and that is having a general contractor or uh the other delivery method is having a a CM at risk a construction manager at risk um and so I can talk through these I'll go through what a uh you know your general contractor is traditional you know you design you know jwa does their design all the way through 100% you put that design out to bid um and then you you get the low bid and that's as long as they're responsible low bidder that's who you go with um and it's pretty straightforward it's it's a kind of an easy bidding process and we've done it you know a 100 times and it's pretty straightforward where construction manager at risk is uh it's another delivery method that's newer than kind of the design bid build method uh that's when you would hire a construction manager um during design so you essentially after town vote we get approval is when you would bring on a construction manager to help assist with the entire design so they would be there as kind of integrated into this entire team with the commiss with us with jwa and they would be there looking at JW's design and kind of giving some of their feedback and you know is some of their design they may have questions with constructibility and again jump in and and help me out with anything on here that you think I'm missing but um we'll go through it all but it's they come in and and help assist through design and they're there throughout the entire process and then they're obviously there through the entire construction process as well uh they usually have a larger staff on board um so there's there's a lot of pros and cons that I'll go through here um during these slides but those are the kind of those are the two different methods we'll talk about today uh so general contractor that's so that's bringing on just a GC that's a hard bid that's doing the design bid build uh so again that's the traditional approach um as I mentioned it's it's designed through 100% uh and then it it goes to the to the low bidder for the town so in town here we've done other we've done the adult center and the DPW through that that method um and so this there's a pre-qualification process that you have to go through of anything over $10 million um and so that's that's something that will kind of coordinate that whole entire pre-qualification so we do it for the general contractors and then we also do pre-qualification of any potential filed sub bids um and so we'll go through and get reference checks similar to what you guys did for an OPM and and what we've did for a uh designer uh we'll go through and get reference checks and there's a whole scoring sheet and Matrix that goes through and if they're qualified to bid on a project you let them know and then they they bid on that particular project um and then again the contract is based upon a lump sum amount and uh some of the advantages of that again it's we've done that process um a 100 times it's it's a pretty familiar process to us um it's um again the lowest responsible and eligible bidder is a is a accepted some of the disadvantage is you know it's it's a linear process there's there's no opportunity to bring in any early scopes of the project so with a CM at risk when as they're on earlier they can actually start that some of the site work packages maybe sooner than um when the documents aren't up to 100% yet so during between like the 60 and 90% maybe we have a site work package that's kind of ready to go that GC can then they'll separate it into smaller packages as far as how they get bit out and and bought out by the district and so that package maybe they'll just do a smaller site work package that gets bought out and that's their first kind of amendment to their contract um and they can get in and start some of that early site work while we're still in design while we're still getting ready for the next package to be bit out they can start earlier so that's some of the the advantage of the cement risk but sticking with the GC um is it prequalification or filed subcontractors only there's no owner input really on the non-filed sub bid so you have filed sub bids and you have non-filed sub bids uh so a general contractor like a site contractor is typically a non-filed so if you get a the general contractor can bring on anybody they want and we don't have a say on that um but the filed sub bids obviously we can go through and do pre-qualifications but is if they only get the lowest bidder so that general contractor has to take the low bidder of those filed Subs unless there's something that comes up during the bid process that we can reject it on um other than that they're they're taken the lowest better where CM at risk it's you have a little bit more input on that process yeah can I ask you to just expand on that idea of non-filed subcontractors what would be sort of an example of that so a sitework contractor somebody who's in doing you know a lot of the excavation and and the field work and that type of stuff that's somebody who's the GC can hire whoever they want on there's no pre-qualification process there's nothing that the district has um as far as the say goes and who they select uh they carry that with them as part as as part of their um portion of the bid and then they have and then a filed sub subcontractor is somebody who they have to go through the bidding process and we have to do a pre-qualification process for them um we can kind of if we've had bad experiences with some of these um filed subcontractors we can disqualify them from actually even bidding on the project um so we have a little bit of say in that but again the general contractor has to pick up the low bid of those filed subcontractors the purpose of that is so that the general contractors aren't bid shopping that once once the file sub bids um put in their bid and they select that uh person that sub filed subcontractor they have to use that filed subcontractor they can't then go to another uh subcontractor and try and beat their that other person's price that's the whole purpose of file of of file sub bids yeah so are there are there certain aspects of a project that would require filed sub bids versus non-filed Sub bids or is it yes there is yeah typically you know it's usually your major so like your Electrical Plumbing painting um you know your I mean what's that masonry elevator yeah those things are usually filed sub where you're doing um Roofing Roofing yeah okay thank you so the majority of them are filed Subs uh but the GC does have you know non-filed that they can carry with them that they get to select on their own and the district really doesn't have a say in that non-filed so they tend to be the smaller contracts that well site work's usually a big contract but that's not necessarily dollar value um but what so site work and kind of depends there 13 or 12 or 13 of them toal generally 50% of the cost comes in as filed sub vids and 50% of the cost comes comes in under the GC right it's a very unique process to Massachusetts it is a pain in the butt because for us if we say here's a piece of flashing and we detail it perfectly it's in the drawings but we don't say who owns it then the Mason says I don't own that flashing the general contractor owns that flashing general contractor says the Mason owns that flashing I don't know that flashing so it it be very specific on who needs to provide what piece throughout the whole building it's a nightmare but to Allan's point the benefit is that you know you you're you're helping you're making sure that the GC is not just whittling down the price and getting someone on board who's not qualified for the project um so you're hoping that for but what divisions of labor F fall under file sub bid does not really make sense to me I think it's how strong your love is in Boston right over the over the years you know back a 100 years ago Architects set of drawings are probably you know an inch thick and then the specification was a/ inch thick or something like that what you know Kristen's alluding to is he's had to detail so many things and now you have three volumes that look like New York phone books for your specifications and the drawings are 3 400 pages of drawings because if you don't have it detailed they're going to tell you they don't own it and that it's a change order and and there's going to be finger pointing between the the file submitters to who's who owns it or who doesn't own it so we'll do our best but we will get those types of issues right happens on every project that's why we have contingencies we have constru construction contingencies just for those types of items so that you know the budget stays intact right you'll get that either deliver method um you get with either deler method either with a construction manager at risk because they're part of the team the the other thing with the construction manager risk is we talked about the two estimators that um the architect has an estimator and we have an estimator if you have a construction manager risk they're doing one of those estimates and then the Architects has has another estimator so they're they're now pouring into those drawings and they're you know telling you what they're carrying for costs of of of those drawings at that level so that's very helpful so they're they're the ones that are going to be on the hook to make it come in at that price because they're they're throwing that number out early the estimators in the GC process you know at the end of the day they go well we did our best you know I mean I guess if if it really comes down to it right sorry did you say that did I hear a question about change orders versus during GC versus a construction did you is that the question was a question aate it's a state you will have change orders either way either deler which process yeah but do you see more in GC as opposed to see them at risk typically yes I would say that that we we do see that because there's they're going to they're they're they're going against the other other gc's when they're bidding it so they're they're they're sharpening their pencils very tight and so anything that that isn't crystal clear in the documents or the specifications you know will probably arise as a change order where you're working with a instruction manager he's been involved in the Pro process now for nine months more than the GC looking at it he he he's understanding that this flashing goes here and continues down that whole other wall so he's got a mental note that yes it's in there even if the documents don't clearly indicate that right and when they're doing their estimating they're part of that design process and being a part of the estimator so if when we kind of come together and do that reconciliation they may see something that we didn't see on our end or vice versa I don't want to jump ahead yeah but I did see in one of the slides it says that generally uh or the disadvantage of a CM at risk is that they are generally more expensive as much as 15% and it could be as as and that's the really high level as 15% and that's up the construction cost that's what we have include change orders that's where I was going with that no they they they are charging for those services that they they're you're higher the nice part about having a construction manager at risk is you get to choose who that is um first of of all you have to have approval by the inspector General's office to allow you to go with a CM at risk but then once you do that we put out a request for services to the the CM at risk and we get you know four or five or six or how many that that apply for that and you do interviews and you select who you want on your team they become part of the team until after all the bids come in then they be then they transition into basically a general contractor building the building for you so they they really are are helping helping you there's a cost to it you could you could exclude the the estimator that one estimator cost from that but that's not not a lot of money per se but they become part of the team and there's um some ownership in the project uh for them as well to be part of the team and that 15% is being really conservative that number recently is starting to come down as construction is starting to level out and the fact that CM risk is start become a little bit more popular than um a hard bid there's more you know it's a more of a competitive nature where that number is starting to get close to you know 10% if not dropping starting to drop down a little bit more but we have seen them as high as 15% and uh you know that's we put that number in there is being kind of the top tier of of percentage but when you're coming up with that 15% is that all in including all change orders whether it's construction manager or or okay it's not no if there's something that's obviously missing that that they didn't account for that's going to be a change order it it reduces the amount of change orders um but it it it certainly doesn't give you it's it's yeah limage just if that 15% if that captures the change orders in some in some instances it does but not always is I guess what I'm trying to say yeah it kind of depends on it if there was something that was big that was kind of missed by everybody you know it kind of can change things but um the the other advantage that the CM U can do we talked about the early your package they can get work done in in a early package to get you going faster so this we're talking about the schedule we're talking about the time commitment uh with a CM yes it's going to cost some more money but you may be able to use that to your advantage to get things rolling faster in in the construction the other thing that we've had a lot of issues with is supply chain where things are 24 months to get an emergency generator um or or switch gear for electrical you have a a hard bid it comes in the got says well what do you want me to do it's two years from now before you're going to get your emergency generator okay well how do you open a school without the emergency generator where with a CM they can do pre purchasing of these things uh for you and be and act as your agent in that regard to bring those things in so that they can you know mitigate that long leading time uh for some of these items yeah we had to do that with uh David prty high school they had a pre- purchase a it's Fontaine who's the CM they pre- purchased a a generator and switch gear for that building because it was like a year and a half lead time and so they purchased that during design and then they didn't even have an electrician on board or a plumber or anybody so they would just write that equipment into their specifications and say this is equipment that you have to carry in your bid and this is what you're going to be using so it kind of transfers over to the electrician or whoever the other trade contractor is but you're going to have it on time versus what Allan was just saying that you know you get to 100% And then it's like oh we're going to start construction but you're not going to have your generator for you know the time the buildings right to be open yeah I have two questions for you um one of them is just about on the general contractor legal clarifications am I understanding this correctly that a pre-qualification for a general contractor we do not do that they are pre-qualified by another entity no we do that we do that we do that so we set up a so do we do interviews in the same kind of there's no interviews no so we set up um kind of a small kind of a pre-qualification committee we'll call it usually we have ourselves the architect will take some um some folks from the committee will take you know a couple and we go through it and there's a whole spreadsheet that we have that lists the questions that we're looking for we're looking at have you had any legal issues in the past five years you know nbe wbe um you know we're looking at there's a whole criteria there and then you're looking at are they DeCamp certified and then you're you're doing reference checks okay and so everybody's getting the same so we're able to sort of pre-select who we're going to be looking at a lower bid from yes in advance yes so you would put out a request for qualifications in RFQ they're going to send it back uh so anybody who's interested and anybody who does not submit one of those cannot bid on this project they have to be pre-qualified but it's fairly difficult to disqualify it's very difficult to disqualify yeah and it's it's hard to disqualify somebody from pre-oil what is not so difficult is once uh to is to disqualify the low a low non um bitter bitter yeah that if you if you have a low bid that you don't think is is um you know rational for the project and there's a good reason to want to not go with them you can you can get rid of them the Attorney General the Attorney General will stand behind that yeah the pre-qualification is based off of scores essentially so you could have a bad reference and it still doesn't drop you below that 70% um but during the bidding phase if you you can call and just have get a bad reference and they're the low bidder you can you disqualify him at that point um but yes during the pre-qual to answer your question yes it is difficult to and they will protest PR process we delay the project y can I also ask um could you speak to the strengths and weaknesses of each of these options when we're talking about an occupied site build yeah so and it depends on the situation if you have a a really tight site or if you have um a project that's going to be built into phases so if you were going to be building a section of a building and then moving kids over and then you know building the rest of the building if there's multiple phases usually that's you're like you you want to see them you're like because you want to help that you want them to be on early early so they can help with that legistics of how is that phasing going to work how is that going to be for parent drop off because we're going to be switching it so it's great to have a CM on board for that um this project is um not necessarily logistically tough because it's you know you're building the building you're going to move the kids in and then you're going to demo and do the fields over there so logistically it's not going to be too too complicated it's not going to be phased out it's going to be you know essentially you know build move in demo do the fields um so going at a CM or a GC is it would be pretty straightforward for either one of them um so from that aspect I don't think a CM at risk is necessary for building purposes okay Carissa if you have any questions just yell them out no you guys are doing a really good job I'm I'm learning a lot because I don't really know any of this so I'm just listening and taking it all in okay cool anyone else yeah sorry um hearing what you've explained here and then looking at the schedule yeah it seems like pot potentially CM at risk could um have this happen at a quicker timeline maybe gain a little bit I think what it does more than make it happen faster is it allows for um things to happen over a summer period that's less disruption for the teachers and the students and and the parents versus everything kind of happening during the school year so you can get in there and do some early site work packages during the summer um which certainly helps with the disruption uh during the school day um but either method I think we're thinking of still you know if we can get a September uh town meeting you know we'd still be able to move in the fall of or I'm sorry the summer of uh 28 I'm wondering if we could just maybe go through the the rest of the pro can I know we're jumping around everywhere and I know we're hitting a lot of points that will be up on the slid yeah I think it might be helpful yeah so I think we can go through this we talked about the legal kind of clarifications with um you know the low and responsible bidder is is is a legal all that's all right while I'm already doing that can I ask a question is it the same companies that bid as both of these types of bids or is it it's a good question so there are some companies that will do both there's some companies that will only take CM jobs and there's some companies that won't do CM jobs they'll just do hard bid so um you know so it could be the it could be some of the same people that we're getting either way it could be um but yeah there are definitely some companies that strictly just go cm and they don't want to deal with a a hard bid okay um you can go to the next slide I think Marty um all right so the construction manager at risk rview uh so again the CM process requires a local and um oig approval in advance uh that's the inspector General's office um so what we have to do is we have to put in an application uh to the inspector General's office uh for justification why this project should go CM at risk so when CM at risk first came out because it you're not going to like a bid process and and taking the lowest bidder they wanted to have a just justification in place why you want to go see them at RIS versus going at a hard bed so that application is submitted we put our reasoning behind it and that needs to be reviewed by the inspector General's office which could take up to you know 60 days probably um before they actually get back to are there like certain kinds of justifications that are accepted and others that are not what's like what do you have to say schedule could be one that that we have a tight schedule that we want to do or if it's a phase project where students are involved in safety of students that would be a very good reason to have a construction manager at risk yeah the Lis depends on the on the project type right um I haven't been on a project yet that's been rejected okay I don't know if Christian if you've dealt with any uh just typically straightforward yeah right um but again that that process takes about you know 60 days um and then they get back to and let you know their findings um and then a cm is retained early in the design process as we talked about to provide expertise on budget schedule phasing Logistics and constructability uh the CM is selected based upon a qualification process so it's similar to how you selected an OPM so they would submit their qualifications and then you would narrow those down to you know how many of you decide if you want to interview three you do interviews they will bring their entire team who's going to be on the project where they talk through the project they'll talk through the schedule um and you know Logistics of setting it up so they put a lot of work into these presentations um and really get to know the project and then once you select the CM and then you go through and then you do your negotiations from there usually the first one is just the preconstruction uh so you would set up um a budget for pre-construction and then you would kind of negotiate to hopefully come within that budget yep and does that tend to be roughly on par with where you all expected it to be or might we find some large disparities between what we expected and where where we start hearing from them after what are you referring to in other words like if we enter Fe negotiations we've already chosen somebody are we likely to suddenly hear a number that's dramatically larger than we expected and now we're stuck with a person trying to walk if you can't negotiate you can go with somebody else so the fee negotiation is still part of that process before you're lock yeah carry on thank you and that feed negotiation would be for their preconstruction services and it's you know it it's it's usually you know $100,000 maybe $150,000 to work for those uh 9 months that that the architect's putting together drawings and do all the estimating things like that you know but then the bids that come in it's an open it's called open book um that they that you can look at the books all the time that they're receiving their their bids from their pilot subcontractors so you can see you we we track it for you as to what the dollars are coming in at so there's no I don't want to say Shenanigans that's just bad word but there's no you know you know you can't you see it now now you don't see that type of stuff it's very straightforward very all above board yeah and they set up their bid packages as they need them as the design is ready for it so there'll be a lot more of that going out to bid for the subcontractors versus just the one time with um a GC bid um and still even on there back I'm sorry Marty go back one second and we want to get through this but so Master law the requirement for pre-qualification on the file Subs still is is happen we're still working together but now we have a CM who's actually their part of that process as well and so they're bringing their experience with maybe some filed Subs that we have not had any experience with or design team haven't and they can bring that experience in and they're part of that whole pre-qualification process as well um which is another Advantage are there still low qualified bidder for electrical and mechanical and plumbing so that part doesn't fall under the CM process okay it's confusing yeah maybe you're going to get to this but so if you the CM process is more expensive generally yep you're only paying the CM $150,000 say to do all the sit in on the design process MH why don't you just do that have an expert sit in before you have a general contract you could um I think it's there's more continuity if you you have somebody that's doing that process and then also overseeing the the entire construction process for hiring all all the um the file submitters and managing that for you and then you know we're overseeing what they're doing make sure they're doing it you know by mass law and you have an open book on it guess I'll keep paying attention I just don't see the where the where the value at is coming in I I I I tend to think of it like in like home insurance that you're going to pay a premium every year for house home insurance you may never ever have to call upon it unless your house burns down and then you're glad you had it but you know at the end of the day you you don't want to go out there exposed when you do something like that and I think you you're reducing your exposure with a c at risk um than than a general contractor and maybe and Christian you're on design side of things with the CM yeah what's interesting is it changes the whole dynamic juring construction right they're part of the team how it's set up otherwise is it's you know we like to get along with our general contractors whenever possible and usually that happens and it you know is great but sometimes you don't um and it turns into a very long arduous process for everyone involved including the building committee in the district frankly um and so with the CM right they're part of the process they're on board and you're you're approaching problems as a team whereas when problems come up during a GC it's just much more adversarial yeah so the CM comes on early they'll start coming to these meetings um you know they're going to be on site they'll have teams you know throughout the entire process were the other way around the GC is chrisan saying so they're kind of siloed out on their own and if issue comes up we're sitting here together you know how are we going to you know resolve this issue without the GC actually being in the room they they're they're in early enough that they help with that early design and kind of give their input through design as we go into construction um and the big thing is you get to select who you want as a general contractor versus um a low bid where you you know you could get a pre-qualified you know bidder in there but you you are you know essentially stuck with the low bid um what portion of school districts or towns go with each mod was a great question yeah I don't have a percentage but CM at risk is is starting to become more popular than the GC um I know Alan you did one recently we're doing with jwa you've done two we're we're doing um Diamond Tech on Fall River is a construction measure risk we did R County Aggie as a construction manager risk and and those are just and the reason being for those projects were site Logistics and student population and moving the students around while the construction was going on so it was a big safety issue as to how to construct this and keep School in operation where I think we have a little different um um uh you know exposure here where we could build it out on the fields and as Adam said then take down the the old school and not have a lot of conflict I I still look at it as you want to be able you want to be able to have a say in who your contractor is and you could you have that say if you hire a construction manager at risk and there are a lot of good ones out there there are a lot of you know not so good ones that um might want to take advantage of you or try to take advantage of you I think in western Mass you're not going to get that kind of you know uh firm you're going to you know you might if you're in the Boston area you might have to be very particular about which one you selected and which ones you thought were honorable and not so honorable some of the projects that we've looked at we've looked at East Hampton West Springfield we looked at crowy we've looked at walp do we know what did they so proudy was CM at risk East Hampton wasc hard bed um you just went to wall pole which was no where' you go C CM CM um East Long meow High School decided to go CM also right was CM the high school was okay I didn't think it was offer back then was that was it I didn't think CM at risk option was an option back then was that was it J ler yeah no they were our project manager um they were op remember B was the general contractor I think it was design to build and Gil ban is usually just CM at risk but they did hard bid because of the economy back when the high school was done that's very unusual for them to hard bid a project yeah huh I what I'm oh go ahead sorry I guess I'm I'm having a hard time seeing how um there wouldn't be a significant reduction in change orders with a CM at risk would so that's one of the arguments is that you're paying more for the CM at risk but in the long run that difference gets a little bit smaller because you're paying for more change orders with the GC yeah and there's lots of arguments on whether you pay for enough change orders with the GC that it equals the cost of the CM probably not but it probably gets closer um so it's it's Project Specific you know you could have one project that goes very smooth and no issues and you get a GC that you know will do some favors here and there and be like don't worry I got it or you have a GC who will come after you for every single penny so it depends on the project it's it's definitely specific one question and um but I'm really anxious to hear eager to hear from Chris and Dave on this because I have a feeling they have some experience with it but um my question is it um knowing that we're trying to be especially mindful of our neighbors and you know having a during the construction process and then the final outcome we want it to be something that um complements the community is safe and you know lots of conversations about traffic and congestion and the disruption of construction and everything knowing all knowing that's a big factor for us it would seem to point us towards a CM risk model where you have somebody who can do that who can represent us at every stage is that a fair assumption oh absolutely because they're they're the ones who are going to be setting up you know the staging they're going to be setting up construction fence and doing the construction road ways all that stuff so having them on board we can kind of put our best efforts as far as this is how we think it should be set up but a contractor just has that experience of you know constructibility Wise this is what we're going to need and in order to make the butters happy everybody safe and and be as less disruptive as we can to the existing school that's there now it it's definitely a benefit to have a cm in there early on and while we're doing the design to help with those logistic plans um before construction starts otherwise you're bringing in a GC and they're ready to get going they're going to go off of our Logistics plans they may have a couple tweaks but you know they won't have that input and hear you know the the concerns that we've had you know for those months and months ahead of time so would they then create their own sort of plan on their own at that point and they would be there as far as yeah a lot of times voice that plan looks and mark up you know maybe uh Jones wit's plan and be like and and have all their qu as far as how the logistic plan should be set up and lay down areas for materials and contractor parking all that stuff um and if they if they were going to be moving the construction fence around maybe to do some phasing and in the site work the best way to do that and how they feel it should work the best way so with the general contractor we have less of a voice in how the logistics of this kind of play out when it comes to yeah usually neighborhood so usually we'll put together a logistics plan the the general contractor will will bid the project and have that Logistics plan in there and say okay I own x amount of construction fence I have this and you know this is the plan you guys put together for me you know I'm just executing what you put together if there is any issues the general contractor could be less sensitive to the you know those issues are of concern to everybody here yeah so if they're a part of these meetings and hearing during design what the issues are they're going to be again you know more sensitive to those and and responsive to them go ahead because well I assume answer is no but is there a difference in terms of CM at risk versus design bid build in terms of bonding or financing the reason I asked Adam is because you had mentioned pre- buying things going into the process so would we have to go for you know earlier bonding for a piece of it or we do it all at once what would that look like it depends I mean and how how expensive that item is I mean if in in the case of Spencer I think think that that Fontaine has has taken it under themselves with their relationship with the electrical gear people or the the um emergency generator to maybe you know s put in the order and put just a down payment on it I'm not sure exactly how I think they did that's yeah so as far as their pre- purchase went they set up an agreement to do that so you weren't we weren't paying for that up front it came when we actually brought on an electrician um during one of the bid packages and so that amend into their contract was then built in for that generator or that switch gear that was in place they have that kind of buying power to be able to do that where I don't think a general contractor necessarily would have to do it or if they did they'd have to they'd go to some maybe unknown you know company that had who knows what kind of generator well you lose your opportunity to have that pre- purchase as well because you're bringing somebody on and then yeah then they're looking at the drawings really you know they looked at them during bed but they're looking at them for the first time we we're not you know enforcing either one on you we're just telling you what the differences are we we think there are benefits here that that given this project given the the tightness of the site given the community involvement and and the neighbors um and all those things that we think um it might be something worth looking at to do a construction manager at risk just for the belts and suspenders that you get with that this building was the rest I just looked at it was no I I was wondering from Dave and Chris's perspective what what we should be thinking about or if you had any any thoughts for us on I'm curious so I'm doing large power plant projects for last couple decades and we we do TurnKey delivery it's all in just like we're talking about right here every project we worked on construction phase is where we lose the most compared to to budget and so you know everything I've heard is consistent you know everything you're saying is consistent with my same experience I would phrase it a little bit differently it's about building commercial leverage contractual leverage over the the construct construction contractor if that construction contractor that is you know cm is involved during the design phase there's minutes of meeting documenting the decisions taken with their support with their presence that's commercial leverage to fight back against the change orders that come up because both cm and GC should be raising the same change worms they're both looking after their own profit margin the same way but if you have leverage over one versus another you have a better chance of pushing back on that uh that change order request that's the way I'm looking at this and that that's you know the insurance you're talking about M that's the the the benefit you're asking about Josh is what are we paying for that premium it's for that leverage to have over that GC that ultimate GC in the end that's the way I view it that's a great way to put it I guess that's what I'm just coming back to is if they're in the room the whole time similar to what Lynn was saying it's that 50% that's killing because that know that might be $18 million like that we are storage of the town's money here we got to right we have to be really careful and if we're getting the same change orders if we have leverage that's great but shouldn't they be if they're in the room from the very beginning they should be figuring these things out as we go I and that's the point and that is the Leverage is that they're in the room figuring out with you or documenting that they're figuring out with us so when they raise that you say no here's the documentation that shows that you were on board within that in time so they might not raise it because they already know that we have that that definition I get that but are we going to worst case scenario is that worth $18 million to us and that's that's really that it's hard for me to wrap my head around that I I'm understanding think that's I'm glad you explained it like that because that's that is very helpful um just that's that's a lot of money the the one thing we have heard from the estimators that we have on on the project are already that if that number has come down that 15% is more like 6 to 8% now they're saying but we have seen but that's but because the economy has changed since you know 3 years ago when inflation was crazy so our cost estimators did show us both options at the PSR and right so that was again PSR early numbers basing our uh estimate off of square footage really but the design bid build was coming in at 11 16.8 million and the CM was coming in at $13.8 million so a $7 million that's the construction that's in construction cost not project so that's what percentage six or something somewhere yeah I'm just as a followup for that um what percentage do change orders typically come in at is that a is there a percentage that you could quote do they average around a particular percentage of a project I I wish Christian wouldn't hear this when I say it but um there's what we call standard of care and standard of care is his documents you know having what in those documents so what he's supposed to have in there um when it exceeds 3% uh change orders on the construction value we we kind of look at them and go you know your standard of care seem to go out the window but if if it's under the 3% or you know 2% or something like that you know it's within you know Norm normal realm of change orders on a project I mean am I being fair on on that yeah and you'll find so there's different types of change orders too right so there's going to be mistakes in our documents we should all like think about that now which is helpful for us in a year from now when we have this conversation again for two years from now um but then there's also like unforeseen conditions so if we find ledge at the site that doesn't get taken into account with that 3% because there's some things that are just a surprise to everybody suddenly there's a whole bunch more uh hazardous materials in the building we tested it we did our best to find it was hidden in this one you know but generally yeah that's the that's the red ball yeah and the msba they have four different categories that they ask us to put into the change order bucket essentially so it's going to be uh unforeseen condition as Christian just mentioned a design issue there's going to be an owner's request um which during you know construction you know somebody comes up with an idea saying you know what we should have done and then if we can incorporate it it's going to be a change order um and then a third party which is um your building inspector comes in and cuz they can go there's code but then they could say no here I want to see X Y and Z above code and they can come in and and kind of force us to do something which would be a change order uh so those are the four buckets that the msba has and that's how we identify change orders between those four different buckets what do you yeah so we so I do a lot of U family housing developments right so we do projects from like 20 million to 200 million I only have a CMR project project on one other project it happens to be with Christian actually where it's a multiphased occupied we have a commercial Co-op partner with a super complicated project we have CMR for that everything else is GC hard bid so we I only typic I don't think this project is complicated enough for a CMR in my opinion I don't think you're going to we have a good design team we have a good owner rep I don't know that we're going to get $8 million of value out of the CMR on this project it's not a rehab it's not occupied rehab it's not an addition we're building a new building we should know what we're doing pretty much in 2% 3% we should be able to figure it out with the team we have yeah and I think that's where're as far as the site goes it is a pretty straightforward site it's a pretty straightforward move um the advantages would be is to select your own contractor and start some early site work packages is really probably the two big things of having a cm and is that worth the money at this point on the early work piece of it like how much speed do you gain out of it maybe you already said that but like well they can get in there and start doing again if we got they can so you have your 60% documents and then you have 90% all the way through 100 that's you know how much they're through their design so you can start kind of like if after the 60% documents if those are good enough to start some site work um you can get in maybe over that summer and if we went just an example you went geothermal you could start doing some geothermal drilling over the summer versus doing drilling while school's occupied um so again I don't think it's going to save us time okay um I think we're still going to be that summer of 28 whether it's GC or whether it's C at risk it's really just if we want to get in there in the summer and kind of do some work ahead of time before school starts up again in the fall okay what what about the long lead equipment and Global Supply Chain issue yeah that's something I mean I see it every day and supply chain and Customs clearance is Right crazy bad right now right yeah is there value there with the the CMR risk and and well as far as pre purchasing go yeah of course if if you're going to have packages prepped before the the GC uh on board date otherwise right so if you have you know switch gear you know if that's not in on time you you can have the entire building complete except for that and still not be able to occupy the building obviously um so getting those pre purchased ahead of time um and making sure they're there on time yeah that definitely brings a uh a benefit to the project and there's big components that you're talking about um do you have the notional lead times for those now based on what we're seeing otherwise in the market in the last few months yeah everything I'm trying to buy right now is literally two times as long and that's like you know instead of six months it's 12 months yeah so the projects I'm on now we're kind of in the middle of construction so anything that's been a lead time issue has already been either purchased store is on site um but we we can talk to any of the contractors that we're working with because they're always buying this equipment and we can easily get a a lead time you know issues they usually have an issues log that they talk about in their weekly meetings as far as any lead time issues um and we can get a copy of that and you know and kind of make sure we have that going into the project which we typically do anyways yeah I was just trying to figure out if there was some way to quantify exactly what the CMR would would bring in terms of lead time Advantage you know for those long we conference I mean even bolts right now for me is is it's crazy you know trying to buy bolts is is insanely long yeah um no jo just on that schedule thing yeah if a CM at risk can start between 60 and 90% design that looks like it's putting us like April May June July August of 26 yeah if and so this is my question we don't go out to bid for a G until we're 100% bid set complete y so that's September of 26 so we wouldn't be going out to bid until roughly September 26 we already would have had potentially 3 months of uh CM at risk doing stuff if they could I guess I'm not seeing how it doesn't save us a ton of time um and then the other thing I'm worried about now that you just said bolts is the conversation that's happening about tariffs on stuff coming in right that's we were just talking about that before the meeting Alan and I that that the complex nobody knows really what's going to happen if those things are active right but regardless of the tariffs the delay that it will mean that's associated with that um and that's the Customs clearance issue that I was talking about earlier is you know just the the the the Russian limitations already in place for the last four years it it's crazy the documentation that needs to be in hand to get anything through customs and that's like steel and and bolts you know but uh it's all you know everything needs to be eyes dotted T's crossed nicely stacked with Customs before anything gets released well on the topic of Steel I know and it sounds like the answer is no but with the domestic um product bonus that being offered through the inflation reduction act you would think that that would bring us manufacturers up to speed but it sounds like we're still behind in terms of Steel manufactur you can't uh increase through putut that fast I mean it's yeah you can't just turn steel production on so it's that's a long so even even if we were to benefit from that bonus it wouldn't be it would be negligible essentially yeah and we don't know what that bonus is going to do if you're buying in America the cost could be that much higher that you know the credits you're getting back on it don't really cover the the cost for purchasing in the America and if the if the C risk approach helps you get out earlier is there some some value to the time there in other words if you're if you're getting out early on some of these packages does that save you money because construction costs are always escalating is that is that another part of the calculus that we have to factor yeah you always have your escalation in there the longer you the the you know you tack on that escalation um the other way if you push schedule out because of late components you have the extension of time costs for those contractors staying on board for those extra months condition all that stuff that you're paying for sorry I'm belaboring this issue on timing um so if you go if we go GC we go out to bid September of 26th yep or 26th that's 60 days like how long are we looking at to be out to bid to get that in to to do that whole process yeah so we're looking at you know so we have the pre-qualification process we have to go through trade contractor selection so essentially in order to when we issue a notice to proceed to the contractor we're looking at you know December 1st is what we have in here so that's 6 months yeah by the time that's like a significant amount of time yeah cuz if we have a I mean we're in Winter then right when we're I don't know I mean that I'm not decided I don't have a a solid decision yet no and I'm not looking for a solid decision tonight this is really just I know this is our first time really talking about it so this is just us kind of giving the time to talk you know and have these questions back and forth and then when we meet again next month we can you know I'm sure there'll be time to process and come up with other questions that we can talk about this again we'll make sure we have it on the agenda okay are there additional pieces of information that people want that would make that decision easier besides exactly how much it will cost I mean I'd be curious for more data on the timing issue um is is there a way that we can look at a few examples of area projects and what the timing looked like at GC and what it looked like at CMR that could be potentially helpful to give us a little bit more of a solid footing on what that timing might actually look like and I think I'd want a better understanding on because our site as Chris was saying is pretty straightforward do we actually gain anything by starting that much earlier like is there enough that they can do there that it's going to make a difference the example that I can think of as e long mow um where it's also pretty similar straightforward new construction then tear down the old I will say the CM brought in a lot of ideas on how to maneuver around the site thinking about neighbors and thinking about school being in session and students needing to get to play fields that were over here while their lay down area was over here and that they're going to have electronic Crossing signals and so there's just a lot more consideration for site safety than I think um there maybe would have been otherwise that schedule is under an insane schedule like very very aggressive and there's no way we would have been able to meet it with a design bid build approach um and so yeah they were doing site work when we were still we we had just finished the 60% CDs and they were in the ground like a week later um wow and uh so it it all depends on kind of it's it does kind of come down to the town vote and then going from there and so with some projects I don't know I think we'd have to look at it in a little more detail but in some projects saving six months makes a huge difference and then in some Pro projects saving six months really doesn't make much of a difference just because of how the uh Seasons go and how the the whole project schedule as a whole goes but for that particular project that was a huge reason why they went correct me if I'm wrong Chon but andise longm was a fairly large site also was not as constrainted as we have here yeah I have a question I've stayed silent for like this entire time just listening to everyone um we started off with a very concerned midyear move and one of the things I keep thinking about is I think you said it an hour ago at this point with the general contractors and for you gave the example of flashing and then oh it's not mine it's not mine do you find that because people are trying not to take ownership of something they supposed to do that we actually get even more delays because of that because then I'm just nervous if like whenn saying we've got six months Advantage with the CM at risk and then we have people who are arguing and I'm just thinking like this is just me hypothetically I'm sitting there I know that Fe February break is something supposed to get done but now nobody's taking ownership of whatever is supposed to get done they don't do a February break I've got teachers who are supposed to expect X Y and Z and now they're doing it while we're back at school these are just things that are popping into my mind and I'm wondering if a CM at risk helps me in that manner just know like just feel comfortable all of us school committee everybody just feel comfortable with the timeline or does it push us back do we just keep falling even farther is that a poal so I guess I'd answer that two ways in terms of you know arguing over flashing does that impact time I would say generally not so much it does impact change orders and so uh again having that CM input early on and and they have a preference too like on my past Pro you know we're dealing with this right now you know they want that flashing owned by a certain filed sub or they want it owned by their drywall installer and so they'll let us know and then we can incorporate that into the documents on your question in terms of like can the CM help the school feel more comfortable I think we're seeing it every day at proudy that um I think that you can get that support from a GC it's just a roll of the dice on who you're going to get it's not and so we've had projects where we've had a great GC and they've been a partner and they've been willing to work with the district oh do you you need us to move our trailers so that you can do this and this and this okay it's going to cost a little bit extra but yeah we can do that or we can even find a way to do it so that it's you know not so expensive or you can get a GC who says like yeah I'll do that if you pay me a million dollar like screw you I'm just in this to get the job done and right you know I don't care about the relationship um whereas the CM because you go through that interview process I mean the the interview process is pretty intense they will wow you with their technology and they'll bring in their whole team and they'll all be dressed in matching suits um and that like that they want to you know they want that relationship and they want that good recommendation at the end so they can get their next CM job so yeah they're very much a part of the process does sound like a good way to avoid mediation at the end of the project you find that and projects they go a lot smoother yes I think with our luck we're going to end up a mediation matter what that class PR no I did not have a question I I was curious what you were thinking could see you nodding along at various points so I was I was wondering where always thinking yes I was wondering where your mind was on that I was thinking about what Chris said in response to Christian's comments that we have a great team with kers and jwa the great unknown is who the contractor is and so um you know having to go with the lowest qualified bidder I don't have a lot of faith that we're able to disqualify biders it feels like it's a a wide open door and yeah um and so for me having a having a construction manager at risk who is with us early on particularly in this community where we're trying to be responsive to you know the needs of the whole town and make sure that we're keeping the site safe and make sure that we don't lose a year of school I mean the problem with school construction is you lose a month you might lose a year right and so staying on schedule and getting out getting out early um seems to be important seems to have some there's some dollar value to that too and then the reduced exposure to change orders um seems to be compelling too with the construction manager at risk approach for me I think that schedule gives you that buffer that you're talking about if something does come up during construction that is kind of a a Time suck it will you'll have that buffer because you were able to get in there a little bit sooner to to some everything things I think all that makes sense I think though also to Josh's Point like it is it's a significant additional cost and it's really hard for us to say for certain that that additional cost C is worth what we'll get especially because there are other things that can slow down the process so we could be like we paid however many millions of dollars to make this faster and then something got delayed you know we couldn't get the the appropriate materials or whatever um so it definitely seems like whatever taking a little time to think about it can I ask just a clarification again on the cost potential differences um that you said it looked like it was roughly 7ish 6 and2 to 7ish million to go up to construction manager that does not account for the let's assume 3% change order with a general contractor right so that would be approximately so roughly 7 million to add in for um CMR roughly 3 to three and a half million for change orders with the GC is he doesn't want to answer I know I'm assuming the 3% though let's assume 3% yeah okay so if it's that 3% then that's kind of what we're looking at we're looking at r on the CM side so then that will go up a small amount so will the final difference be 7% probably not but will it be zero I don't think so the CM will be more expensive yeah yeah CU set up with a CM just figure how much more on our budget we carry with the district's budget there's a contingency you have owner contingency you have construction contingency those for for items that come up for those four categories that I talked about to cover um the CM if we go CM at risk they're going to also have a CM contingency that they have built into their contract as well so it gets definitely a little bit more complicated that they have their own contingency for items maybe that they miss that they can carry and and cover those costs and at the end of the project if there's money left in that CM contingency it comes back to the arm um Julie mentioned earlier like what would be helpful and I think the timeline information would be really helpful but also just to map out the the financial pluses and minuses because there's factors that you know Financial factors that push you um towards one model or the other one delivery approach or the other and just seeing that's in one place I think just be helpful know if we're talking about roughly 3 to five million difference or 10 to 15 million difference that's those are very different numbers yeah and do you actually need this decision next month or when do you actually need the decision well I don't know if we need it next month but the the you know because we're looking at you know September of next year essentially to start bringing a cmon after the town vote so okay um no I think if we went another you know not next month but the month after to try by the start of of next 2025 because we have the the 60 days that the inspector General um can take to to give us a blessing before we can even put out proposal or request for qualifications and that takes a couple months to go through that so you Time Marches On To You Know get the approvals get the RFQ out you know get them in here do the interviews um bring them on you negotiate bring them on board before you know it it's it's September yeah so you want to have all that stuff kind of behind you once the town board happens so that way once the project can proceed you can Auto you can go in and and get a CM on board cuz you you want them on as as soon as we can and that process okay sounds good but yeah so I think if yeah next month it'll be a good time to have more questions let just digest a little bit and January we make a decision okay sounds good do you want to everybody else that on this move on um we have establish sustainability goals is our next topic so uh I thought this might happen uh it's late we've talked about a lot uh I have a lot of sustainability slides um we can uh postpone the whole thing I can run through it really quick this is another issue where we do need a vote from the committee on whether we're going to go with uh lead or chips uh the collaborative for high performing schools um and so what are folks when does that vote need to happen by next meeting or could be next meeting or even meeting after it helps us in terms of starting to Target our uh approaches to it and we need the decision before we submit to the msba they want to know which way you're going before theard what we have a lot of meetings we've had a lot of meetings this I looked at this today I would I don't want to go through it quickly makes more sense to take time Dive In For Real all right cool do we need to do working groups now so the last yeah the last item on the agenda then was the um establishment of working groups I think the I don't know that this needs a ton of time but the thing that um chairman Ray and I talked about with Colliers was establishing uh for now uh two working groups two advisory groups a sustainability and site group and then a group to that focuses on Athletics and Facilities so with the with the consent of the committee um I'm happy to work with Colliers on pulling those two working groups together those two advisory groups together there are we've sort of roughed out a roster of folks that really ought to be part of these working groups so for example the Athletics group that the head of some of the our park and recck director the head of some of the um uh athletic groups in town um our athletic director so there's some obvious choices and then um um sustainability in sight I think we'd like to engage uh some of the um some of the neighbors um just to be sure that they have a voice in the process so again with the consent of the committee I'm happy to work on that with kers and and Lynn and anybody else that wants to take part so motion do we um could help sure yeah move to empower Marty to work with callers to develop uh these working groups second second uh any discussion [Applause] vote Yes Josh yes Chris yes David yes Lynn yes garissa yes a yes so all right excent are you ready to I think there's no other new business so we're ready to are we good on meetings do we know uh We've set aside the second Wednesday um December 11th December 11th so do that work for cers and J if we have a meeting on December 11th y 6 o' minutes minutes oh approval of minutes oh we did that at the beginning did did at the beginning yeah um we have like different versions of the agenda um cool okay you have a motion toj second cool yes Josh yes Chris yes Davis yes Carissa yes Julie yes and I'm a yes all right thank you lots of information tonight apprciate