##VIDEO ID:WVO5OU31hy0## e e e e e great good evening like to call the uh Wednesday September 23rd 2024 meeting of the town of lock aty grov Agri Tourism Committee called meeting to order so good evening gentlemen so you want to start with the pledge sure let's uh again please stand for the pledge States of America the stands indivisible at this time Mr chair I'll call the role committee chair sluggett here Committee Member Su here Committee Member Joseph Chamas here Committee Member Darren SN is absent Committee Member Lisa hullman is also absent Jeff CTS I'm here and town clerk assistant Samy Brown is present Mr chair we have a quum to proceed great thank you um next item on the agenda is approval of the agenda so do we have a motion yeah second yeah motion by y m second by Joe all in favor y all in favor yes all right that vot's unanimous I'm sorry that vot's unanimous thank you oh okay thank you so um see next item oh we have to approve the minutes correct okay yeah the doesn't appear to be anybody here for public comments so and at this time we have no public comments motion to approve the minutes from our last meeting which was August 26th it's on the back page of your it was on pages beginning on page three I think of your agenda saving paper with the two-sided C it's a good thing yeah it's the minute the no I'm saying where are the minutes listed at actual minutes they start on page three and they go to page six of your agenda package and it starts on page four after the approval of the agenda okay regular agenda at the top there he was asking for like detail yeah I have a comment um I think we had requested a report on the prior complaints specifically around agrotourism sort of complaints without any person's name or business name just kind of a high level report to see where should be focus and I think that's missing in this minutes it's not mentioned that we requested a report on the prior that's included on page six under next meeting Focus oh next meeting f next oh yeah next okay okay I think so we can do is when we U start going through the agenda and discussing we can bring that up and hopefully staff can give us an update on that okay so with that uh is there a motion for approval of the minutes yes yes yes yes Joseph makes the motion second by Minish thank you so all in favor yes yes thank you thank you okay along and we'll try and make this relatively quick tonight if we can so I'm anyhow moving on to item two review and Analysis of the AGR tourism report so um yeah the the the focus to tonight um was going to be on uh traffic uh parking and noise I believe was the direction of the committee um and I think those are the most significant issues that we have with respect to the uh code enforcement issues I did inquire of our code enforcement department as to what the source of the the complaints um were um there have been very few complaints that are directly associated with agrotourism per se um there are there are or were code enforcement issues with respect to development of of property when um people were coming in for um you know the need for FDA permits and and those kind of things um but uh that's not really directly related to the um agrotourism business per se that that had to do perhaps with um uh you know just normal development issues that anybody could run into there were some complaints about um traffic uh and and uh some noise issues um they're primarily uh dealt with one particular business we don't want to you didn't want me to name uh the business those matters were resolved um at the time I do not believe um and I meant to get confirmation on this uh today but I think it's a fair statement and if it is incorrect I will uh so advise the committee later I do not believe there was an actual finding of violation with respect to those issues um there was a a complaint um and it was resolved without having to go to the magistrate um and one of the things I think it points out in the discussion that we had at the last meeting is that traffic and parking uh go together uh because parking is often the solution to the traffic problem or the perceived traffic um problem because if you have a good onsite circulation system and you know you you're being attentive to to the parking needs and you know not letting everybody just self- park and grab the first spot um those the traffic queuing issues which is typically what we uh we're we're running into get resolved um so the I think that's where I was going to begin the discussion on on traffic uh the I think the issue becomes um what's the trigger point for the kind of impact that you're going to have um Mr Thomas you talked about your business and you you're having 10 to 15 people coming in you've got a five acre piece of property you know if they show up on when with 10 cars you know um that's not that's not an issue and especially as I'm I'm guessing based on what you you told me uh about the the operation of the business they're not necessarily even coming at exactly the same time they might they correct they're probably supposed to be there um at the same time but just as we saw with this meeting somebody's going to come 20 minutes early somebody's going to come five minutes early and somebody's gonna come two minutes late sure and it's so it was 10 minutes no I'm just kidding it was actually it was actually Four yeah if we're actually tell but yeah so so there's not going to be that that kind of situation sure um now if you've got but if I can interject I I actually did do a farm to table which was an evening one so it was different than it's not something that I Contin wanted wanted to do but I did do one to experiment to see how it was I did have about 150 people there so I did experience uh what we're discussing right now but I was ready for it and my previous job I used to own a uh Valley parking company so you know this is layups for me it was a joke so so I had I I put a guy at at the bridge on the road and he would flag people in and go all the way down to the end of the property into the back side where I had about two acres of open spot now I have different things there so I can't do that anymore plus it's not something I want to do anyway um but we did manage to fit about 100 cars back there perfectly and I had someone in there guiding the cars parking here right and it was just smooth just smooth yes as long as you've got the traffic circulation yes so I had two guys I had one at the main road so people go where am I and they stop they just we just Coast them straight in so they make the the left turn right over the bridge and then there's another guy at the at all the way down the road he can see his little flashlight and they go all the way I say go down to the flashlight they go all the way down to the end and he turns him in shows them where to park yeah you do the Disney thing you know it worked very easily um and then on the way out it was a lot easier because they would go out ones and twos ones and twos ones and twos they would leave as they wanted to leave rather than everyone showing up all at once so that initially the the main thing is everyone showing up at once if you have people on the roads with the you know with the lights guiding people into the parking spaces you're golden right if people are sitting there trying to figure out where they go and they're slamming on the brakes causing a traffic jam that's a different story yeah so and so you were able to draw on your uh previous life experience um but if you don't plan for it MH it it could cause a problem and and one of the things that I I think I mentioned to to some of the the members the question then becomes okay obviously on a five acre piece of property um I don't know maybe 50 cars becomes a problem maybe it's 100 cars it's not 10 or 15 sure uh 100 cars on a 10 acre piece probably doesn't cause any problem if you've thought about it at all um but so my suggestion to the committee is rather than us try to figure out what the the magic number is but there probably is a magic number um why don't we suggest that the uh our planners and Engineers um look at this issue and come back with a recommendation along the lines of based on the size of the property um and the type of event because it there's there's two type there's two types of events something that's going to be where you're G to have traffic in and out for three or four hours and traffic coming in that if you hit that trigger and let's for argument sake let's say um if you've got a 10 acre piece of property and you're going to have um 500 cars uh you should uh um present you should have a plan for that you had a plan yeah um so you should have a a plan at a certain point in time and share that plan with the the the town doesn't have to be engineered or any of that kind of stuff it's just like acknowledging you know in the best of all worlds you know you've got an entrance and you've got an exit you have everybody Park near the near the exit so and it's not the same thing so your internal circulation works and boom everything flows so once you have that set up it's it's cookie cutter after that so people that are doing this on a regular basis like you know Swank and some of the others that here that are having larger groups on a regular basis they already know this they've already gone through this they already have people on the road flagging people in coming in so we so you know once you've done it once or twice right you understand what it's like and you adjust accordingly for that without you know and I think this a lot of this started because of complaint from Neighbors but that could have been more deep deeper related issues rather than actual just a couple cars traffic up you know so so the the I think the the thought is if the committee agrees if try to find the the the trigger point so that because this the regulations are not just for the businesses that are already here it's for somebody coming in and and they're going to establish something and if um if you're going to have uh over a certain amount of people if you're going to have do weddings for 500 plus people on you know a five Acre Site God bless you you need to figure out that and you need to share that information so that it can be reviewed by the by the town because we have people who understand traffic circulation and take a quick look at it say Bless you you you you you know you've met the standard and this will work because as you as you said Joe in the beginning of some of this um there were complaints and and I think Darren would acknowledge that there there were complaints and he figured it out correct if he had thought about it from the beginning and looked at our regulations say oh you know if it's going to be this big I really need to come up with a plan he would have come up with a plan sure then he could have had it reviewed and neither he nor the town would have had complaints right so that would have been a better situation and I think there needs to be you know that cooperation between the business owners and the town to work on those Solutions if something pops up like that I think we just have to be um careful not to over step what state statute allows now I know we you mentioned you know traffic and parking do go hand inand because of the circulation issues but the state statute if I'm wrong tell me if I'm wrong doesn't that really dictate offsite impacts yeah and we don't really have the ability to really I don't think you tell me if I'm wrong regulate those on-site parking standards or whatever and I think also the whole intent of the AGR tourism statute is really to allow folks with Bonafide agricultural uses to expand their agricultural business but not to the point where they're having to go in for a conditional use approval or rezoning yeah where traffic analysis are required or parking circulation so I think we gotta be careful not going that far well I talking about talking couple things the the that uh exactly the offsite impact is the that comes up with traffic and I should have been clear that I don't think this standard should be just applicable to AGR tourism businesses it should be applicable to the church that wants to have uh a flea market it it would fit into you know our uh special event kind of categories um and so um with Mr Thomas's business you know you know uh we don't we don't review the 10 to 15 cars that that come in um and I'm not saying that 150 is the the standard but maybe maybe it is at that point in time you have to show us one time this is how I would handle that kind of of situation um you know in the event I have that kind of an event this is going to be my parking plan to your point on uh the parking I don't think the town gets involved and as we would for a normal Commercial Business and say your parking has to be on you know uh uh improved surface uh the the parking um spaces have to be X none of that farm yeah and to to me that that's a matter of self-regulation between the customer and the business if I go if I go to your place and I get stuck in the mud and I have to be towed away and my tux gets ruined not coming back I'm not coming back or I'm you know maybe you're going to make it right somehow but that's that's not there and maybe if that happens to enough of your customers you're going to go hm I need to figure out how to how to have them not parking in a SW swamp um and so to me that's that that's how the self-regulation comes in so that we wouldn't be look the town wouldn't be looking at the parking spaces per se um but it would be um it would be say if you're going to have an event that's going to have 300 cars okay don't show us a parking lot that handles 50 you know explain how you're going to how you're going to handle them but you don't have to have an improved parking lot if if they're making a turn into your property and then they're parking in your property and they're able to fit the cars in accordingly does it matter it's not it's no longer affecting offsite anything anymore so why I'm just I'm just I just know because I know everyone else is going to ask that question but like it's it's it's because of what you explained about what you did okay based on your prior experience okay you did not have people just pull in and as soon as they pull in and park you said come on down come over here and park in this area correct and that's why you don't create a traffic jam at your your place because you're maintaining flow sure um so as I said and my the way I'd look at this and I think the way the town would look at this is you'd come in and say okay here's my plan if if you if your plan was um the first person's going to take the first spot and then the and you're not going to have any internal queuing then we would say let's rethink this because what you're presenting is going to cause a problem if could we just as a committee you know this is great imputs could we have a deliberate on certain topics to give guidance to them sure I mean I think that's what we're talking about now so let me flow a couple of thoughts here to focus in I agree with my friends here basically that says anything inside my property if you're an agrotourism business and you have you can have a 10 acre property and you can have two or three or four or five acre open plane space or you could be a 10 acre property but just one in other words let the businesses worry about how they manage their internal parking as long as they don't create a traffic or an offside impact for their neighbors they don't create any health and safety issue I agree with my friends here that there should be zero regulation uh around regulating how people manage their they may have 10 people doing parking or they can have zero people and they can run out of spaces very soon so my what I would like to have my friends here you can vard or you can give guidance I think there should be no regulation uh inside inside the property as long as the the AGR tourism owner op operator manages their traffic if they if the operator feels that they'll have an outside spill then let them come to the town and coordinate with the town hiring police or hiring whatever whatever I don't think we need to put any extra burden no on AGR tourism businesses I I I agree with you um once you go in the property but I understand um your point also so I think that um obviously you're more you're talking about people that are never done one before and that are coming in fresh that want to start doing this so you're saying okay what's your plan how you going to handle it now I know what my plan is he knows what his plan is he's gonna know what his plan is and Swank knows what his plan is so it's a matter of making sure that we don't have that bottlenecking as it comes in on the road they can come for guidance if they want to come for guidance and say okay Mr Jeff help us plan on a new AGR tourism well I mean it almost sounds like in what you're you're suggesting is we wait until there's a problem and there's a complaint because that's no I'm just I wanna I want to understand if if you if you're saying um that there's no trigger point where you would come in and remember that I am talking about I'm talking about issues whether it's the church whether it's any sort of business that's having a special event if it's if it's if it's Jeff and he's inviting you know a thousand of his um closest clients and friends to his daughter's wedding um and it's completely private there's no commercial aspect to it at all um but he's going to have a thousand cars show up at at his property um let's just pretend it's five acres um they need to they need to show the town how they're going to manage that otherwise we're in a situation where people go H I didn't realize that was going to be so much of a a problem um and so I think there should be a trigger that's based on the anticipated level of the event and it's going to be different depending on how large the the site is um where you go okay if you're inviting a thousand people um we don't have a problem with that but uh but you need to think about the traffic impacts on that because you know coming that over that little culbert fridge there if you don't have it worked out we're going to have you know a jam up um on one of our roads and all your all your folks are going to be there the other thing that we don't want to get into a situation of is somebody um and and this could happen but if you if you planned for it if you're planning on having a thousand uh people on your site at one time and that represents you know four or 500 cars then yeah you should be able to demonstrate that I'm GNA have space for them because what this town doesn't have any room for is people parking on the rights of way outside of the property because there is there's no room um and so and and I'm I'm really asking for clarification I I don't disagree with the no regulation per se but it's you have to address the problem before it becomes a problem we don't want to be just oh well look at what happened last weekend because somebody didn't think right I think once again we just have to be careful of regulating what's taking place on site because as I said the state statute says you can regulate off-site impacts I think that's what we're doing now yes the parking does is tied to that but I just don't know how we can go ahead and establish a some sort of parking standard based on size of the property you can't really because man made a good point because he's saying if you have a 10 Acre Farm or a 5 Acre Farm I could have two of my Acres on my 5 Acre Farm open and my 10 acre could be completely full of stuff and I can't park any cars I'm when when I'm talking about this I'm what I said in the beginning was that the solution to a traffic problem is the onsite parking and circulation system we're not going I'm not we're not talking about having regulations as to how you handle that it is simply that you should have a plan for it that Mak sense Mr chair I just want to let the record reflect that the town manager has joined us at 6:37 p.m thank you so much I just thought I might share a little something from a previous review of this same issue and Mr chomas you'll remember that we talked about what you do and what the sanks do and that the town will come out and work with you with regard to the circulation and parking on site we were able to alleviate the off-site traffic impacts at Swank Swank also discussed that they hired parking attendance and they also do valet parking on your site you made an arrangement with for overflow park or you have talked about it I'm no I'm not doing those events I did one as an experiment uh but I'm no longer doing that we're sticking with the Retreats which is 10 people by the way I love your walls oh thank you love them love them and and your new thank you you know image yeah um so my point is even if you're not doing it we certainly allow offsite parking um so I think there are a number of ways that if we know about the type of event you have and off and also if we know about the rough size or duration we can work with you and you can work with your neighbors relative to making sure everybody's okay with the you know um circulation and parking and I I I didn't want to you know impede your discussion I just wanted to appreciate I don't have any problem with that I think that's great I'm just concerned that if we try and codify regulations in onsite for like onsite parking I just think that's faring but I agree I mean in a perfect world every AG tourism business in the town would hopefully come to the town and say let's work with you to make sure we have efficient traffic flow we have efficient parking and everything and that's great I just don't want to go that step of actually having in the code parking standards because I think then we're going too far beyond what the state statute okay so if I may first of all thank you so that Mak sense not up to me it's up to you to recommendation I just wanted to just insert that those two anecdotal things because we have worked with Mr chomas and we also did work of course with Mr Swank and his wife right and once I think once you you worked one time and we resolve it then it's in place and then nothing needs to really be done because we have a system in place we know where our cars are going how it's being done and I think to to your point you're more concerned about people that are starting this that haven't done an event that are planning to and then uh oh it's a big biasco first day and he's trying to avoid that and I totally understand that so in that aspect maybe when you start hey do you have an idea where you're parking do you have enough to handle 150 cars or 200 cars or whatever you're planning to do if you have 500 people coming for event you only have space for 20 cars it's a problem so I understand your point also we're just trying to figure out how to do that without being like hey you guys have to park like this or got you so this should recognize he yeah he needs to he needs no no no that's good so I think uh Point number one is we all agree no matter a business Commercial Business Church nonprofit that nobody has the right to block any neighbor we agree nobody has the right to block any right of way or put health safety at risk so that is a given acknowledging all that what happens inside an act tourism business is left to the ACT tourism business I beg to differ that we are different from churches or any other type of businesses because they are commercial in nature for example Commercial Business have to have handicap parking and a lot of times we get calls around handicap and other regulations thankfully for our a tourism we don't have to have certain things which is because we have a dirt and rain and we can't be subject to certain other regulations so the point I'm making is whether it is a ticketed event where you know how many people are coming or wedding where you know how many or if it is an open Event like I have a fair and you know I unexpectedly thousand people came that's a bad news so the recommendation is have ticketed events have some sort of a control and then if you feel that you are going to be overflowing or suddenly so many people then act tourism people should be encouraged to talk to the town town have proper Public Safety all those things in control so I am saying that all those are good practices nobody recommends creating new sense for the neighbors but what happens inside an act tourism should not be regulated and I would like to ask my friends their comments on that issue well s said you say require a ticketed event no no not requireed could be require I'm say best practic is have an idea how many people like you sell 150 tickets to dinner event you but sometime you have an open market you don't know how many people can come at any given time so you have a contingency plan but I'm saying a tourism business what happens inside their property should not be under any regulation how they Park it's their business as long as they don't create an spillage or create any health and safety risk for their I agree with that to a certain extent but once again we have to look at the traffic component if it gets to a point where you have a large event your traffic's backing up and you have a gridlock situation that needs to be addressed and I think that's when you sit down with the business owner and you try and address it and come up with a plan and then you can look at the parking circulation and so forth so just gonna go ahead and share some more anecdotal information working with the sanks one of the things that we had first thought was you know if you gave us a site plan nothing fancy something you know just where you draw kind of what you're doing not necessarily a formal site plan um if we could kind of get an understanding of what you were going to put there um that again voluntary not you know regulated and additionally the other thing is is that we had fire rescue and the Fire Marshall in here to talk about the rules because even though we can't regulate what happens on the property there's a lot of Fire Marshall um and fire rescue type rules that still have to be regulated like for instance you need like a 13 foot clearance for all that parking and so on to have a so so there's still some stuff and if it were um if we did it with number of expected attendees and if you were willing or the agrotourism venue was willing to come in and talk with us we can help like we did with um Swank I mean it's kind of like we'll send our arborist out to look at whether you have native trees or not you you know I mean I think that there's a a a mutual kind of thing we can do right I'm fine with that so voluntary best practice yes so voluntary best practices dealing with the on-site parking and it would be offsite traffic as well right because we're not talking about any true traffic standard per se but no we we're we're talking about making making a determination as to when someone would probably cause a traffic issue um you know and it once again it's dependent on on circumstance if you have only one way in and out um that's a a an issue and sometimes the solution might be well you need to hire a traffic control officer yeah yeah I mean I think over but but without so to me it it should be there should be a trigger so that nobody's guessing yeah as to how I didn't know I had to come in or I didn't think it was going to be a problem so you put into the code whether on any kind of a special event and I don't know what those figures are I'm suggesting we turn that over to the the um Traffic Engineers and the planers to take a look at and come up with some standards um where a property owner if they were going to have an event of a certain size needs to take traffic into consideration as I said the solution is probably it's not not going to be you can't have the event it's that you have to have some foresight with respect to your traffic your internal traffic um circulation and parking issues so I don't have a problem with that from a special event standpoint but once again and this is all special events I mean if you know we're looking at it as what AGR tourism As I understood wanted to do with this and the direction was we don't want to be anybody to focus on agrotourism per se and impose regulations on agrotourism but we're willing to abide by regulations that um the entire town would have to so if I'm having an event um you know Mr Thomas has an event with 20 people nobody could care like less obviously at that level you don't have to come in for review if you're having a thousand people on whatever it is you probably need to have um you know uh an ackowledgement and a plan for how you're going to handle that okay well I hear just from the other committee members that you'd like to see this as a more of a volunteer type approach versus a regulatory approach okay do you want just and I'm not do you want add to that for a second so does the church get to volunteer too let can I add to that for a second I think we have to understand agrotourism businesses business it they have they incentivized to create a best experience for their customers and for their neighbors so if they have any situ offside impact meaning you we can you can suggest Town may suggest if the road is blocked for for X number of minutes or whatever those definition of off-site impacts may be you know whatever those are but what I'm saying is uh the agrotourism businesses have special privileges given to them it's not available to church it's not available to a normal household it's not it's not like Joo can tomorrow have thousand people in the backyard that's not how there are laws that applies to agrotourism what we we committee is focused on AGR tourism what we do with the church is outside of my brain cells I don't know what those conditions are what I'm saying for agrotourism there is no regulation in my personal humble view I my friends here can guide your inside how they manage their parking is up to them as long as they do not create an offside impact as defined by and that's where you can define those things don't create jams don't park here don't do this whatever those fire department rules as long as they manage those they can hire 20 people to park or they can do two-way threeway fourway let them manage it so as long as they don't create those offset impact it's up to the businesses how they do it that's my humble opinion I I would love your UT yeah I mean I'm definitely partial on that I I I do understand from the town's point of view in regards to if you're doing let's say a two or 300 person event should there be a standard procedure meaning that if you've got if you know 3 400 people are coming shouldn't you have someone at the end of the road flagging people in the right direction I think that should be something common for all of our our events if you're doing three four 5 600 people and you know they're coming that's going to create a jam because someone's going to not know where to turn and if you got someone guy going hey this way this way this way so I think we've already been doing that right I mean for the for for most people that are doing large events have somebody moving the traffic so there's no backup so I think I mean it's Common Sense really it's not you know it should be common sense mostly and just common decency for your for your for your neighbors if you know you got 400 people coming maybe I'll stick a guy out front to make sure it doesn't back up you know so I think these are simple things that should be implemented with common sense you know so maybe the number is 200 300 people if you have 300 people coming you should have one guy out front flagging them into the proper parking and then once they go into the parking they're no longer causing any kind of off off-site parking issue the issue now is do they have enough parking on on their property that's his issue so maybe what frine was suggesting earlier before you start doing your your farm to table events or your big events you draw a little parking area I I can fit 60 cars in here and I'm going to flag them in and and that's how we're going to do it and if you have if you you know that might be a simple way of doing it um not that you're being forced to do anything and I understand my colleagues issues of of not wanting to Rel you know relinquish control on their own property because then all of a sudden you allow people to start you know saying what you can and cannot do and it becomes Troublesome on on you know act tourism properties I'm sure so um and I understand their issues once they go on the property we got it we we can handle it you know what I mean so I I think that's where their issues come in in in uh in line and so long as you got enough parking um and you got someone at the front of the road I don't see where the offsite impact would be so and maybe the way we address that would be from the traffic side the offside impacts right and requiring if you assistance with the traffic control that type of thing if there is a traffic issue where cars are backing up and there's not a steady flow onto the properties so maybe we address it on the traffic side yes but then on the parking side we say that would all be potentially voluntary correct and unless you create and you don't have enough parking spots and you're backing up and it creates a problem then there needs to be another solution either you rent another lot from your neighbor or what the offside impact that's what we said define the that's where we we should invite the town to guide the committee what is that defined by traffic jam defined by this you know uh illegal parking defined by this so as long as that doesn't happen let the businesses manage how they manage they can hire 20 attendants they can create three ingresses four our exits let them do that part let them Park wherever you know we move animals sometime we have 300 400 people coming move animals from the front and the back and let the front areas be parking lot guess I'm trying to understand what the is it the idea of pre-planning that you have a a problem with sharing the the plans with the the town because I'm not sure we're even saying different things here I'm just trying to I think it's putting in things in the code that Force AG tourism to do certain things within their property that people don't like I think that's really what it comes down to we don't have to do certain things because we're not commercial we're not non uh churches or some other property with pabe Road or whatever we agrotourism businesses have been given certain let's use the word certain Privileges and those privileges include where they decide to get their parking have people sit under certain structures while following the fire and health and safety standards all that good stuff well you know I there are I I I understand what you're saying I'm just like I'm confused because what we're talking about is we're anticipating based on on a certain level which we have not yet to finded but based on a a certain level of event there will be off-site traffic impacts if you don't take care to plan and all I'm suggesting is that you would if you're going to have those type of events you come in and you submit a plan and it gets reviewed by people who can say okay this makes sense or this doesn't make sense s the alternative that if if I'm if we don't pre-plan the alternative that I foresee which I think is worse for any event is we hear about an event um we go um that's gonna that that sounds to us like it might cause a a problem we don't we haven't heard from the people we don't know what's going on we don't know how they're going to handle this problem you know what I've got to do then I got to send a sheriff's officer out there and make sure the traffic flows so I got a I've got an officer out there waiting for something to go wrong rather than a situation where I I go oh no we've got a plan they they do the things according to this plan not going to be a problem I don't have to waste resources like that yeah clarify something with are you looking to treat agat turism events as special events is that what I'm hearing you say because that's a whole another what that's getting into you come in you fill what I'm what I'm what I'm talking about is an event size is is going to have a traffic impact depending on the size of the event it will have a traffic impact once you recognize that if you have X number of people you're going to have to have a traffic a a circulation pattern planed to work that out otherwise you're going to cause us as the town and your neighbors traffic problems um and so it would it would apply to other events I just want talk a little bit about AGR tourism for a minute there are not special rules that are applied to AGR tourism there is the absence of special rules applied to agrotourism and so the reason that the last group recommended looking at townwide traffic standards townwide event standards and whatever the third item was which I can't remember um was because it was supposed to be townwide so if there's an event that has let's say more than a hundred people and there's no room on the property to stack on site they can't stack in the road I hear what you're saying so when you would Define offsite impact you would say no stacking you would say no this no that and generally speaking we know that if there's a hundred people coming at the same time there's going to be stacking so I guess that's why Jeff is trying to say hey and I'm going to go to Mr Chamas again okay he was talking 200 300 people if Mr chomas had 100 people on his property he does not have parking for that could he handle it he could because he has an agreement or he has a way to talk to a neighbor for off-site parking and he will also do the appropriate signage and ahead of time tell his folks how to park so at a hundred you might have a problem or you might not but at two or 300 maybe everybody might need to go ahead and just make sure that they know no stacking in the road and you have to get an attendant if you're going to have more than let's say five cars at your I mean these roads are skinny you know and I hear what you're saying it has to apply to everyone so let's talk about the church the church stops up okachobee when they do the feeding and they have a traffic officer out there doing you know his or her best to move that traffic and it doesn't but they still you know are trying so I guess that's where you know Mr Curts is trying to go you know something like some combination there that it's not a specific rule for agrotourism that it's true for anybody who's going to have any stacking in a public right of way and that's really what this issue is stacking in a public right away if Mr chomas has 100 people he doesn't have stacking because he has an off-site agreement and he sent out something ahead of time but if he has 200 he probably wants to talk to us well I think it's you you could almost just have a a blanket correct statement that basically says there no stacking allowed I don't care Acres or two but but right and that go that goes if you have the if you just have that blanket statement the only way that we can monitor that is by sending an office off out there to code enforce or the sheriff's to do that that's not the way we want to spend our resources it's a better it's a better situation for everybody that if you if you have those trigger trigger levels you go huh I better think about this I better come into the town tell them what's going on and show us that they can we can handle this without having the stacking problem because we know you know at a certain level there's going to beace so I think let me Define certain terminology so we focus on the right thing special events special events it does not in my mind apply to AGR tourism because if John Smith in his backyard wants to bring thousand people that's a special event if a church wants to do something for Halloween it's a special event agrotourism businesses they experienced operators so it's not and we have our own Engineers when we do the planning wedding planners parking planners you the you know let's not assume this is Mom and Pop type business and they don't know what the heck they're doing I'm saying is these are experienced operators if they need the parking design internally they have their I work with multiple engineers and or parking companies who do this for living and I'm fine I'm I'm saying is Define the offside impact as defined by no stacking no parking whatever those standards are and you're right if you want to proactively stop this from first of all if I understood there is not enough complaints there is hardly any complaint right now so we are thinking about a hypothetical we don't have a situation where 20 businesses all at the same time on Saturday night like Del Beach or Florida what is that place where we do the shows right we are not having situation 10 p.m. 100 cars are coming to him 200 we don't even have that situation so hypothetical is in future if hous cars are suddenly coming in our town and you want to avoid that but I'm saying is if you have a strong enforcement and penalties no business wants to get ticketed or be a bad business where their customers are waiting in line 20 minutes to get in or they are getting angry you know coming in and out so so these are for-profit experienced operators and if somebody's creating those issues they should be code enforcement or whatever that mechanism is there should be severe discouragement for any repeat of such behaviors they will probably lose their privilege if they keep on repeating that so but I'm saying let's not enforce let's not tell businesses how to manage their internal stuff they have engineers and their people to manage it and if they need help they should be encouraged to come to the town let's put clear definition of the offside impact and penalties that you have for everybody else not just act turism that if they create any such nuisance then they should be accordingly you know reprimanded or fined and their privileges then they have to be if they get twice three time ticket then maybe they have to then get pre-approval for their parking I guess I guess my my response to that is the reason they're the there were complaints I said there haven't been any in a while I said that didn't ra rise to the level of a um a code enforcement special magistrate order I don't believe but the reason was because we were getting complaints we did contact the owners the owners did work with the town and all those kind of things and the regulations that we have or the that you would have are meant for everyone in the agrotourism business and everyone any let's let's be honest anybody with a farm can start an agrotourism business they don't have to have any experience in it they don't have to have any knowledge they don't usually want to hire any engineers you know um and you had I think you have something that starts off maybe uh a little small and then it gets bigger and bigger and the idea is simply set standards out there so that people can can say I don't want to have a problem and I can look at this and say oh okay 20 people I don't need to worry about that couple hundred people depending on the size of the lot maybe I do need to worry about that let me think you're making an assumption that people you know have all the requisite knowledge to run a business smoothly most times when people start off they learn by trial and experience and it makes sense to have a plan um to deal with it and they might not they might not have Mr shamus's experience as a um a former uh having a former valet business and realize oh my gosh I should think about um how I'm going to park people but on the other side of it those used as an example of the sanks the sanks had issues they met with the town voluntarily yes and it caus and and and it could have it could have been a situation if they come in earlier before they were having those kind of events there wouldn't have been any complaints there wouldn't have been any problems and it all could have been addressed because everything everything was foreseeable when it comes to the traffic issues now that you know I'm not saying we can resolve all neighbor issues but with respect to the traffic issues they are forseeable and they can be addressed and they were they were addressed so what I'm trying to what I'm what I guess I'm emphasizing is if you have um standards where somebody uh gets a review the reason you're you're having that trigger point is because you recognize and they may not recognize um that at that point in time you're going to have some issues that you need to to deal with and it's better for everybody the neighbors the town um the staff and um the owner of the business to plan for it ahead of time code enforcement is very inefficient for everybody I'd agree with that I just think that this is not a significant problem we've faced in the past and remember too I mean whatever decision and recommendations that this committee comes up with and we send to council and if Council was to approve it fact that matters you can always go back it's a fluid document the code is fluid I mean you find out a year two years down the road something changes and now we have 30 more Agri tourism businesses and we're having these big events and we have a real problem I have to go ahead and readjust it but I don't see that as a real problem see I I I requested prior data there was nothing prior data I don't see any increasing volume of the complaints and the system worked when people had problem they came to you because no no no it wasn't they came to us we came to them because of complaints that's all I'm saying you can avoid all that it was um it's better to it's better to be in a situation yeah from a community standpoint that you are we're getting permission rather than asking for forgiveness because if you have to come in and ask for forgiveness that means things went wrong well let's also talk about one other thing we know that the ownership of land is changing in town and a lot of large Acre Properties are being acquired by equestrians for venues and um not all those venues have a lot of access or circulation on them and so those events will draw you know um more people than we have here to for had um and we need to consider something that's townwide so that it addresses any stacking you know and again I think that the stacking is the issue and I think that and that's I think I think we're all in agreement it's the stacking side of it stacking not get into coming up with arbitrary numbers as to how many cars you would allow on different size Parcels of land I just don't think we want to get into that and to be honest I think that's overreaching beyond what the agism statute allows for so I'd say just to move things along there motion to your point if the if they are on a secondary road if they're crossing the canal and your offside impact can very well Define so many cars so much weight you can't bring heavy trucks those that's why we said let's define those offside impact based on where you are that's the right way let the businesses I agree look the permission versus for I think we don't want to regulate businesses to permission so my motion is if I may motion to define the parking off no motion to define the offside impact of the traffic and not regulate a tourism businesses inside their property on how they manage their traffic accept as required by law for except as required by law fire health safety laws yes I would like to propose that motion so we have a motion on the table is there a second second now okay so second by Mr Thomas and uh I would agree with that as well I let's we'll take a vote of it all in favor say I the motion yes I I pass is three Z great May I a clarification yes please okay I heard what you said Mr Su and I love it because those are the things that we're talking about weight um stacking um the bridge or not the bridge that type of thing so we can define those types of things um and they may be General definitions they may not be specific because they are kind of property right oriented if you're on a smaller Road off a lettered Road or a smaller Road that's a couple of streets off of a lettered Road it's a different story than if you're on a lettered Road right okay excellent those be standards to clarify those would be standards that you would develop based on those locations right yeah not necessarily just a case by case bases no would be a yeah because the roads only have a certain amount of width and there are certain roads that are grid roads and so on and so forth so I think that we can Define the traffic impacts by the type of impact that's what you said right okay traffic impact based on the roads stacking whatever those things you want to Define yeah okay okay I think that's good um okay it's defin it by the type of impact Mr kurs nothing on site except as required by law corre okay so that I think addresses both the traffic and parking so the next item I think we have would be discussion on the noise issue or if there was a noise issue I think we discuss I think we discussed that in great detail last time I mean this is all Deja for me because I've been hearing it over and over again yeah so I've heard all these points before on both sides um yeah I mean I think we came up with a pretty um pretty reasonable um noise mandate I thought in regards to not Mand but but uh you know the times and the lighting and all that me we went pretty specific over it um I don't remember exactly off the top of my head I know we had them all written down um I don't know if you that and I think that they did have to do with timing yeah um and additionally we said that we wanted to develop a better standard townwide that would be at least as loud as normal farm equipment because right now we're at 50 and 55 DB from the property line depending on the timing and a hair dryer is louder than that we my voice is 75 believe it or not right here remember that they did my voice yeah so and I don't have a particularly loud voice so yeah I think primarily it was all addressed by the hours of operation of time I mean basically what it says the committee recommended that the following hours of operation rather than decel levels be used for Agra tourism and then it goes on the say Monday through Thursday close at 10 pm Friday through Sunday and weekday holidays close at midnight so I think that was addressed yeah I mean those were our rec honest I I think midnight was a little late is that I I agree with that midnight but that's you know if that's maybe you can I think that was on a special I think that was midnight isn't every is that every weekend that was yeah Friday Friday and Friday through Sunday and weay but I don't think that's that that's not necessarily noise that doesn't mean we can blare music till midnight I don't think that's what that says I think I think it included a cleanup period i thinkle perod that's to do with lighting I think clean up period do with noise put like blasting music till midnight I don't believe that was I don't know if that was necessarily the case plus I know that you know everyone that does that they they shut them off at like 9:30 10 the music's off you know what I mean then they're they're breaking down and they're trying to clean up so there's clean up Crews so they need lighting but um yeah can we get is there do we get clarification on that midnight includes hours clean up or if it's midnight to two I thought I read somewhere that you have an additional 2 hour hours after midnight I I understood it to be to midnight and then when you go to lighting um it says reflect the same hours of operation that are recommended in the section on noise and an additional two hours uh for cleanup after event closing so when I read those recommendations my understanding was you could have the event uh happening until midnight that's on page 17 and 18 of your package um that that you could have the event going on including um you know some goodbye uh Tunes whatever it happens to be um until midnight and then the you would cease the event and the operations and that you were given an additional two hours um to get everything cleaned up and the the lights turned off now that doesn't mean you had to go to um midnight but you would have that availability as I understand the the previous suggestions sorry comment on this this is my personal opinion I think to maintain the natural quiet and let our neighbors enjoy their backyards and such I I would be surprised if my colleagu said that they need to put full music Post 10 p.m. now having said that maybe there are special permissions required for example New Year parties exactly Thanksgiving you know certain July 4th holidays maybe there are exception for those kind of things but if somebody wants on a traditional Friday put loud music until midnight I don't think that's normal business I think for that they need to come to the town and ask for something and they need to tell their neighbors so my personal thought and I would love to invite your event is normal sound level should normal event sound level should stop at 10 p.m. now 10 to 12 you can you know in good faith you minimize the noise and clean up the site in good faith but that's not to mean that you continue making music until midnight that's my thought would love to myut yeah another clarification what is the current noise um code in the town it's on decibels and we need to change it anyway because decibels are very hard to prove um so there's that would this can gopm code in our current code this would not track it so it' be separ what I think we need to sort of work on clarifying and bringing you know merging those two together I think you know we ought to have one standard I would thinkc whether it's a turism or business or even for a private residence yeah and I with with the current the current ordinance and you can see it on page 21 of your uh it deals with noise and it says um you can't have a sound level of 55 DB or greater on any surrounding property between the hours of 7 A.M um and 10 p.m and I think that actually uh and then um anything over 50 DB is 10 p.m. to 7 a.m. so it's not limiting the operation of the business the business or anything like that it's it's a pretty low level um in the middle of the [Laughter] day um because the difference between 50 and and 55 isn't that that High um now now it it would have to be way it would have to be the way it's written it would have to be monitored from an adjacent property right um and so if you have centralized your uh if you've centralized your event if you have a tent if you have trees all around all those things attenuate the the noise um but 55 is uh not not real High um I would I would guess because our our typical our typical uh lots are what about uh is it 600 feet wide something like that um you know and so even if you're smack dab in the middle of that you're 300 ft from a a property line if you had a neighbor that was being bothered um any sort of ban or anything like that at any time of the day probably uh is inv violation of this and I think that's one of the reasons that uh the previous um iteration of the committee suggested let's look at at getting more realistic levels uh um and then the the focus on the the time and their recommendation was the uh was the event up to to midnight so and if you were having a wedding I don't know that's I'm just thinking about those it didn't saying specifically Jeff in regards to blaring music till midnight we didn't we didn't really clarify that and I don't believe anyone on the council actually ever even went past 10 p.m. ever right so with the music so that like I said that's not being an issue um you know I know I know Swang turns his music off like 93010 they shut it off even on a weekend so they never go to midnight blaring their music so these are the people that are doing this on a regular basis you know we don't do it post post and and yes you're going to get people call us can we have all night parties we pay you more I mean there has to be some decency in the town you can make more money if you do those wild things so I'm saying is 10 p.m. event ends unless these are major holidays you can Define what those are new year and then if somebody has a some spe special permission required if they want to make noise until midnight that's a special circumstance it's not normal business so 1 p.m. event the actual music Etc should stop and then 10 to 12 could be packaging but in good faith they will minimize their sounds so that's what I personally would recommend thoughts thoughts I'd like I'd like Daren in here for that and because that directly they'll vote in I'm thoughts we're not voting on it we we've already gone over this multiple times um in the last session um I don't it didn't really affect me too much so I I wasn't super focused on it as much but um I know for Darren and uh for you know for Holan and for the people that are doing f table events um you can't you know there they might people were going to be there till 11: 11:30 12 and then leave but but we can't be like all right shut down by 10 music okay possibly but any can go and I believe that's the way it is right now um but you can't be like okay it has to be you know bone quiet by 10 p.m. you still have 200 people there you know once again I guess do we have are we aware of any complaints that's at this point from AG tourism uses operating too late into the night with loud music couple in the past um we haven't had any this year um and believe it or not our worst complaints came from private parties one um on North Road Block traffic understand but not AGM uses that was not right and then there was an agrotourism use on a lettered road that was late and loud so we've had two large complaints one AGR tourism late and Loud okay no I I think to clarify my comments I'm not saying event Vue has to shut down a 10 I'm saying that 55 debel whatever that maximum 55 debel you know science I'm an engineer and science studies show that constant 55 DB can affect your health these numbers are there for a reason based on ergonomic studies so so I'm saying is if whatever that level we come up with county code state code whatever that bothersome noises that loud music is has to stop at 10 now in their own premises if they control that noise and they can go on all night as long as they don't bother their neighbor with light or noise I I'm not advocating for any shutdown time for any event I'm saying loud music that bothers people physically mentally cannot continue beyond certain time in the night that's what I'm saying I mean my position is not to you know split it down in the middle but I think Midnight's a little late for operating hours 10 um I'm not so sure but I think 11 would be a good compromise that's what I would prob are we talking we're talking about for for music for noise for being able to we're talking about for yeah music music we're not talking about okay by 11 everybody has to leave no we're talking about music loud music right so particular loud I I don't believe anybody on the council that has a agrotourism business has the music past 10 p.m. as far as I know as as far as I know I don't think and we should discourage people anybody who's listening or ever listen we don't want circus or some sort of people buying event spaces here and abusing Our Town that's not how it is about people live here you live here I live in my property this is not a situation we live somewhere else and this is a event space so I think we don't want uh we don't want those actors type people to come in buy places here and do all night parties we do not want that so from that perspective I personally believe there should be an end to loud music yes you can continue all night and do all those things as long as you don't bother your neighbor so that's my view be a little clarification because I'm looking at you know the summary that staff had provided I think at the last committee meeting last month it looks like you're talking about operate hours of operation for the Agri turism business we shouldn't have any such thing it's on they're talking about for all business on the noise it's on the noise okay we should not ever have any businesses yeah so do we want to provide clarification then on that that you you as far as hours of operation I don't think it's hours of I don't think it's hours of operation I I don't think no you can you can reg hey you have to that's not to any it could be if you're impeding anybody's civil right you know you know right peace and Tranquility yeah so so I think yeah I mean the noise blaring at midnight might be a little much back into the decibel discussion how do you determine what that impact is well let me just I just took a quick look uh on the internet on how reliable this is but uh it seemed to be a decent site um 50 DB moderate rainfall 60 DB normal conversation exactly 70 DBS a vacuum cleaner a busy road 80 DB a motorcycle 90 DB plus um a quiet bedroom at night 30 DB so a quiet library 40 DB [Music] the wait a minute folks the recommendation of the last committee had two parts one was hours of operations and then on the top of Page Three the committee also recommended that if decibel levels are to be considered in the townwide standards then acceptable levels need to be revised above the current standard of 55 DB to account for the level generated by normal agricultural operations and further reviewed for appropriate hours of operations okay so it's a two-part it was allowing a special rule for agrotourism okay one thing that nobody has mentioned but again because of the changing ownership of the properties that we have there are likely to be fundraisers on Open Fields that don't have a lot of buffer um particularly if we have 60 and 80 acre Clan venues and that is why I believe some of those hours may have been considered but the event hours of operations are townwide and those are different than the normal business hours so if you wanted to do something similar to what you said before and make all the hours of operation similar identify dates or circumstances that they could go outside of them and they could get an administrative approval that's is that's very reasonable because you're basically saying taking three different times that we have in our code one is for noise one is for hours of operation and one is for special events and you're saying if I heard you right to make them consistent with exceptions for special holidays you know or designated known holidays um and then maybe some type of special exception um you know we have in the past even for cement pores because cement pores they like to do them in the middle of the night we do not provide for that noise level or that activity in the middle of the night it has and so we have had those come before Council for a waiver um even for cement pores so that would be really part of your recommend Commendation if you wanted to do something with a special exception is it administrative is it by Council let me add some com see my point I fully agree I think the it's not the conversational sound it's the type of sound for example if my neighbor is operating a tractor on a full throttle and I can hear that tractor and it may be just 55 decel or 60 at it must be 90 or 80 at that time at that side of the fans but by the time I hear it the problem with that is that it affects the quality of the life of the of and it can affect the quality of the event that any agrotourism is creating so I fully agree that we devise standards around creating any whatever the decibel level is we we can do research at which people get bothered there should not be any people should be able to sleep in their home properly the children adults they should be able to enjoy their backyard so at a certain time I believe it could be 10 it could be 11 whatever that is we can discuss certain holiday exceptions but there should be peace and quiet after that unless they have a special approval and I fully agree we don't want those big events where people are partying all night creating new sense we so hours of operation means you know our beg to differ here here because we have Night Watch events we have sometimes school kids come and they do camps and things of that nature meaning they do little fire or weddings have quiet few number of people they want to sit in a circle and talk so hours of operation you know how they manage inside them it's like saying you have to sleep by a certain time you can't dictate that you know we have a colony next to us people let's use the word in their own world right I don't want to name them but they can do their activities all night long nobody bothers anybody so I think hours of noise and traffic maybe that you can't create traffic as defined by your standards those are the things that we control we don't control inside their property people can be awake all night doing meditation or yoga or that's true that's not anybody's business again it's the statute allows them allows us to regulate offside and impacts not improvements yeah impacts um so I think that's where you're headed was I I'm fine with that as defined by noise as defined by light as defined by traffic let's create those offside limit and boundaries people respect that what they do inside their four walls is their business okay that's my do we need to I don't know how you put can you put that into a motion okay the motion do we do we need to do a motion or is that enough Direction the staff I think I think you said that you don't care about hours of operation you care about the amount of noise that would be B at certain hours so so so certain noise standards during certain hours and certain other noise same thing with the traffic you can have more stricter strict standards During certain hours of the night because of the canals and road safety and other things so my motion is and if everybody agrees I will let me try it for the town management to guide us on the decel levels and the hours uh for the for those noise levels so that agrotourism people can have music Etc until 10 p.m. or whatever time we Define let's not Define what the time is but decibel levels during their normal business and then uh decibel levels that they need deciel levels after certain hours so they respect the peace and quietness so that that's my motion to let you def guide us on the decibel levels what those decibel levels are and the and not uh I would say 10 p.m. is my minimum uh but you guys can Define but at least let's see what those levels are that's my Mo that's my directive does that give staff enough to go on well I if that I think it's important that my understanding of that motion is that it would be a change from what the previous committee recommended I don't I don't agree with I don't agree with the decies I don't think we should play in that Arena I think that's a dangerous Arena I think um I think that's yeah I think that's going to cause a problem red flag for lot of people um I think you know obviously you're going to be over we don't really like he was mentioning decb it's really 50 everywhere but a quiet room is 30 so like these don't really make a lot of sense and then we to figure out okay when you're blasting music till 11: p.m. what is that deciple at if we know what that's at we say okay well a loud party with DJs and it's blasting is 200 DB okay that needs to stop let's say at 10:00 or 10:30 and then from there you can drop down to 100 DB where you have maybe someone on an acoustic atar or quiet something like mild like like Cal music or lounge music or something like that because if you shut it at 10: then all these people are in the in the quiet there there's no more event where it might want to go a little later so and and not so so yes I'm just my issue is I'm agreeing with you but my issue is trying to lock down what those deciples are no that's what we recomending and the enforcement then you have the enforcement of it who's going to go out there go out there standing there with a meter and measuring the D well yeah I mean that's yeah that's the issue so so my let me redefine you ask Mr Su to amend his motion to include what you suggesting that no the the initial thing that about the the motion as I understood it is the elimination of a regulation on hours of operation and that and the previous committee did specifically come up with hours of operation um uh as their recommendation which is which is different so that would be that would be big change um just so and I'm not an expert on uh on decb by any by any level but just so everybody understands when you get over a 100 DB that's like you are in a um uh a basketball arena and things are going nuts and you're down to the last 30 seconds and there's somebody taking a shot that's like at 110 DB when yeah yeah well that's kind of weird because you said 60 was like the decb yeah it's um there is a duation aspect to it well there's also in between there like I said the vacuum cleaner is at 70 but at 100 I just I just remember being in stadiums where it got over 100 and it was really really cool and intense but yeah well I think to be honest I think I'd like to stay away from decb I'd rather stick with the hours of operation I think it's cleaner simpler um and once again I mean I think I don't agree with that we so op how do you know if I have a night watching event are you going to say you can't do those if people are quiet no no no he's talking about he's talking about noise till a certain time yes so if we allowed to make noise reasonable noise you know until 11:00 p.m. and you go all night long if you want if you're not making noise you're DJ at 2 in the morning you're good so that's what I said I'm saying is as a motion was to say this decibal level until 10:30 p.m. then 10:30 to 12 drops to this then 12 you know how do you how youy that measure that that who's going to go out there and say oh I think that's a second I'm saying is let them at least def right now all agrotourism businesses are non-compliant as for the current code the the the 50 to 55 DB is nothing so right now if you make noise you you are regulated by the existing so we're eliminate that's why we eliminated that in the last one to go with hours of operation say guys you know we're doing a 250 part dinner party there's going to be some music and music is going to go till 11 o' you know or whatever it is now I wanted I wanted to clarify with the rest of the uh with with the noise things it doesn't specifically say loud music till midnight so I wanted to CL I wanted to clarify that with Darren Swank because I know that was more in his Arena um of what we all agreed on last time but they finish much earlier than that M they're done by 9:30 yeah that's what I'm saying that that's but that's why it doesn't clarify in here that you can be blasting music till midnight but it also does it you know what I mean it doesn't it that's not I think we had all saying the same thing stop the blasting music at 10: 10:30 whatever we'll discuss so we need to discuss between all what we think would be correct and what's blasting and that's what they blasting music blasting is loud music like you got 300 people you've got speakers you got a DJ it's gonna be loud period it's going to be loud we don't need to go measure the decibels it's goingon to be loud so when does that shut off that's what we all have to agree on with everyone well once again too and I brought this up before I mean as far as the number of complaints again the town's code uh is a fluid doent once again if we run into a situation where again we end up with all these agriturism businesses and they're and it's getting yeah and then just music being played at night and it's really disturbing uh residents then we revisit it but I just don't think we have to get into regulating decibel levels and so forth I like the idea of keeping it right to the hours of operation I agree my understanding is that already Max decb as per the current ulc that's our AGR tourism means abs sense of they can't enforce more than the existing Cod it's very limiting I mean you can't the whole ulc then that situation but we can't tie the Agri tourism events to the current that's what I'm saying noise ordinance I because I think even SNS wouldn't even be able yeah all of out of compliance listen every single person in town is violating that that that's one every we have a mo everyone okay so we do have a motion on the table I don't know was there a second if there's let mey now that I get everybody's Fe a substitute motion right I think he can amend his motion maybe it's not a motion but I think the statement is in terms of the noise regulation I think our general feeling is and they can add their comments that at certain time whether it is 10 10:30 to be discussed loud music stops as defined by we can discuss what is that mean and then 10:30 to midnight is so-called packing you know cleaning the site and other things lesser sound and then and then we can discuss that what happens midnight post post midnight and during certain holidays there are exceptions that anybody in their backyards can have things until midnight whatever we decide but that's a holiday situation and then if somebody wants a special exception they can come to the town in that case they have to inform their neighbors get the exception and so forth so so that's the motion on the table okay so motion on the table is there a second understand the motion but I don't think it's a motion I think just a direction just a statement I think I think we need to I think we need the rest of the te the rest of the should we bring it back why don't we bring this back yeah I think we should bring this back with the actual hours for the loud music in specifics I don't think you can regulate necessarily you know if people are staying till midnight or whatever you know right obviously hours of operation is how we did it last time but when does the loud music actually get cut that's basic take I personally think that you have to go ahead and make your recommendation in the context of outdoor events so in the context of outdoor events you know um loud music will have to stop at blank unless it's one of the following X holidays or by special exception cor and the question is it's bring back something like that that kind of stuff you know that that kind of stuff obviously it's gonna you know you're GNA have and and I think um what might be helpful is for us to try to get some examples of uh the 50 to 55 and what level you know with since we're focused on music how loud that that is you know see quite annoying people yelling whatever that could I understand but uh the the music you know we'll we'll see if we can play something at 50 um and and see what see how loud it really isal meter in yeah no we that'd be great at the next meeting and if you would put that in the form of a formal motion for recommendation for that to be brought back no we don't need that are you sure for the meeting minutes just Direction you're going to write it was a motion made by Mr Su seconded by Mr Thomas no we didn't we haven't had a motion we said direction is to find something and when the members motion DET the time for we're bringing we're bringing it back so that we can have a full committee that's a consensus by the committee yeah yeah because this was already this was already and we wanted you to give some recommendation based on research like how other decibel levels whatever other controls we can measure it or control it how do we Define loud music okay that's good I think those those two major yeah those are major issues now we still at some point we'll have to discuss lighting odors vibrations dust signage so my suggestion would be um pick it up at the next meeting and I think we could potentially be completed by then yeah hopefully that's it y I think yeah most of we actually have some good recommendations on that on odors vibrations and dust I mean it's my it's my personal opinion that there's not really that much to those issues um that lighting was the only thing Jeff the lighting was the only thing is when does that get yeah the lighting I mean it's written right here it says it says it in in what the committee recommended but I believe it gave us um uh two hours to be able to shut off the lights of the cleaning food to clean it corresponds with the it's it's sort of merged with the the noise that you could have lighting a little longer than you could have the noise the noise exactly but the lighting still not the noise is still not clarified to what time when is that an actual cut off I think is it midnight or is it 11 to 10 I I I don't I think we'll bring that back for for discussion and and see if we can get that but the odors vibrations and dust I you know if somebody wants to to Really re-examine them we can um and then and then the signage um we would signage we discuss some discuss we'll bring that back um as as we're developing a a sign code um with respect to the next meeting Mr Shamus is not going to be able to to make it and I don't think I'm going to be here either I think Mr slugged indicated he wasn't going to be able to make it so and we've got some we've got some research to to do maybe the thing to do is to come back at the November meeting and have that and see if we can be in a wrapup uh sort of uh deal rather than come back in October when uh one or two of you are not going to be here Mr mol yes yeah I just want to clarify something because we want to bring you back something you can vote on so it occurs to me that when we change noise um um and I'm looking right here at the noise ordinance it seems to me that um we have the extended hours in the special event permit so we can go ahead and come up with some kind of reasonable decel day night um and if you wanted to be outside of that then you can go over and get a special event permit where we wave the time frame because the time frame in special events which I don't have in front of me but it is is outside our normal operating hours and I do believe that it goes to midnight yeah and I think that those hours are the special event hours I mean again I don't have it in front of me but I think we adopted the special event hour so if you want to go past the 10 which are these normal hours you apply for a special event permit and that applies to everyone it's not just agur I think good handle yep so that should be you know easier that way I think since he's the next meeting he want to send his no disclose I think it need to be I think it needs to be an open discussion between the rest of the businesses to see how it affects them I don't want to have to just put mine without having to hear everybody's comments it doesn't affect me so you know I don't want to have to make but I think that Line in the Sand right now slug I think indicated that he might not be able to make it so my suggestion was do the have the next have the next meeting instead of being our October meeting come back in November do we want to do November uh look can I suggest I can't be here in October unless we change the DAT to make the things let the make the things easy and efficient let me since I carry one vot everybody will have rights to share their opinion and we recommendation anyway we are not yeah we're not voting voting anything I'm saying my personal recommendation is 10 p.m. cut for the loud music if somebody wants and then 10 to 12 in good faith agrotourism businesses will wrap up clean but they will not have loud music that's my and they can have lower music they will clean up general standard but no loud music Post 10 p.m. that's my suggestion and I'm not going to change my mind I know what I'm and that's F I think but I think we've already given staff Direction on what to bring back for discussion once again next meeting you know where I stand if I'm absent in the next meeting so I may travel so that's why I'm giving my early input so you have Direction the question now becomes do we not have the October 23rd meeting that we go ahead and meet in November is there any reason why we could not do that is there any time constraint staff wise no you're your the committee is sunset um after December but um so I there's there's enough time and with this we'll be able to bring it back uh bring you back some meaningful um information so well I mean you you could still have the meeting in October just obviously Mr Chamas I wouldn't be here no I can't you would be running the meeting and then maybe you have a forum with the other two committee members then let's do the skip the so Mr CTS is asking if you guys want to either skip the October meeting and have the November meeting skip October and we meet is it November 23rd let me I'm just checking the date right now no no doesn't show up no no I don't want to do it we want to do it collaboratively yeah we want everybody herebody it would be I believe it's the this is the 28th is the current date for the October no no no yeah but uh it would be November 25th November 25th okay I'll be here that's a tough week Monday it's the Monday before Thanksgiving can we move it up a week yeah can we do in the previous week instead we schedule for November 18th yeah um let me see when's our your be your fact meeting yeah um if you want us to explore another date I think it it would have to I can I've got we've got ulc and um ulc is usually the second I don't know whether we have a fact meeting scheduled for November 18th or not uh we don't have to do it on a Monday can we do another day that week I can do another day as long as we have enough M this we can go ahead and call around and get a better date okay okay fine so the the thought is to have it that November 18th week yes okay okay so you can enjoy your volid so finish the agenda quickly any other Committee Member comments before we adjourn com no confirming the next meeting you'll call around so okay all right you have motion for adjournment yes I second in favor I you guys thank you so see you in November take care