##VIDEO ID:kNYtuZIwqIg## 24 carats Mr chair we're ready to start whenever you are should we wait for somebody or uh Mr slug will not be attending and I have not heard back from Miss hman oh okay sounds good okay so we can start uh good evening everyone I would like to start the agrotourism committee discussions um we Mr chair yes call to order and Pledge of Allegiance yeah all to order pledge uned States of America stands one nation under God with liy and justice for all so I would like to uh and at this time we all need to have roll call roll yes sir he runs a tight meeting chair Jeff slugged is absent Vice chair Manish Su here Committee Member Joseph chomas here Committee Member Darren swake here and Committee Member Lisa Holan has not arrived yet but we understand that she's on her way correct um Town manager branen ramilia here town clerk assistant Sammy Brown is here committee staff Le aison Jeff CTS I'm still here and we also have our Public Works director Richard Gant our superintendent Craig laow and our building official Jack thomask the agenda welcome everyone so I think uh we need a motion to approve the agenda yeah we do we have we have a motion to approve the agenda anybody would like to second I'll second it yeah all in favor there yes to z y okay the motion passes and then approval of the minutes that are contained in the backup the minutes uh of the agrotourism committee meetings reflect our views lot of things that work in progress and advisory in nature anyways so I would like to approve this approve the first item on the agenda approve the meeting minutes do I have any comments or motion to Second back it is pretty much yeah a second all in favor yes yes that passes unanimously and at this time there are no public comments happed ands come the the committee was reconstituted um and each of the council members selected uh representative um to to be on the committee um and I think your wife was uh was selected I and I don't recall who um who up here replaced you I don't know whether I can't remember who you you're appointy your a LGE I believe it was yeah um and I I want to say that the uh Mr Su were you Robert I'm Robert yeah um and I I don't I don't recall but anyway that they selected these uh these five folks Mr slug is not here to tonight but I'm glad to see you back because contribute I I'll let L do that's fine you got you got a representative at least that's good yeah as long as you got someone so with that uh let's get to the item number two uh this item also happens to related to me uh as well as a business so it's a good topic to discuss today so let me give you a little description of background and this is a good case study and I would love to invite my colleagues to uh add their insights and their experiences so we can uh give some guidance to the council and to the town staff on special events so this was uh uh a nonprofit event uh by a celebrity named Kodak Black he wanted to raise funds he had actually uh he's donating his own money and raising funds for veterans on the Veterans Day and um uh they had originally planned this event in Palm Beach uh but law enforcement was busy with the detail protecting maral Lago so Mr chairman yes please let the record reflect that Committee Member Lisa Holman has joined us i' like to reflect that present welcome okay so this was uh at the very last minute uh they approached us I knew some of the common uh people in the in the friend Circle so their agents uh came in and they visited our property and they would they said let's go as an alternative we would like to host it here and I have to admit this was my first uh time doing a public event and this is a topic of discussion what is the difference between a public event and a private event event and things of that nature but this was an event which was open to public free admission and they had issued 10,000 tickets and they expected a crowd of 5,000 um and they said that we will send a statement out that we will only take you know smaller number if that was the case so I approached the town management and the staff very late in the evening a day before the uh Veterans Day and I have to say that I'm very impressed with the town manager ranine uh Richard and Craig at the Public Works Jeff from legal even though it was his weekend uh they all came together at a very short notice and they were here with the with us until late evening uh speaking to Kodak Black's um event people and his and his and his event manager and so forth and uh they all tried to work to make it happen which tells a lot about our town in fact they reached back to me even though this event did not take place at our town but they said they were really impressed with the pro business uh and and very sharp team that we have at our town they were really impressed and in future they may come back to Lo andachi Groves for other events and even their team members who do other events in Miami and other celebrities they all got the good word that town of lockah hatch is a business friendly and and very approachable Town staff so thank you to you all for making this happen so uh so I was told that uh we need the blessings from the PBSO and the f department so this lesson number one is I was not educated to know that our County Palm Beach County has a lot of influence or decision for hosting the events in our town and um Mr chair and I just wanted to note that Captain Turner um Craig Turner from the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office is also online with us all right welcome uh Mr Sheriff uh to our meeting we would love to hear your thoughts as well so uh and then uh Palm Beach County of Commissioners as I said have a lot of influence so the suggestion number one from my end would be to engage with the Commissioners uh better as we become more of an agrotourism town so they understand our pro agrotourism pro business attitude I was I I was also made aware that County fire department and County PBSO resources uh are required to bless this town as you know our town does not have its own fire or Police Department so we were we approached them I did not approach them directly but the event people did and it turned out that um they were busy yes this agism good question I'll I'll come to that in a second so uh the town so the the town requires its own planning review which is also which also includes um they want to make sure that the county has blessed it in other words Fire Marshall has blessed the venue and did the safety inspection PBSO is available to handle the traffic I was told that only PBSO can direct traffic on the public roads even though within the property uh now you have to understand the they they do paid events they handle 50 60,000 people crowd so these were experienced uh event people and they said I met with their parking people they're they have a locally Mt they have all those things but fire has to complete the safety inspection uh fire rescue has to be on site or standby confirmation available for the town to approve uh this event so so the town required a site plan and their own review on top of the Fire Marshall and PBSO review uh and I have to say that all the town review was very helpful all the staff uh came over some of the staff came to the site and they were very proactive and helpful so uh that was really good to note um although I did not hear anything from the county and I believe they were speaking with the event people directly uh I was also told that town required some neighbors my neighbors to be informed and perhaps consent that I have a little bit of concern about I don't think an agrotourism event um requires me to take a consent uh in informing them absolutely um and then here is the lesson or the question um what constitutes a public event versus a form event versus a special event versus an agrotourism event as you asked uh this was uh Kodak Black on the F meaning they want to recognize veterans even our own uh veterans in the town they said we will give you a special booth and we'll invite them over but the whole event was a farm theme with rides and animals and you know culturally educating people Palm Beach families this was a family event no alcohol uh no alcohol allowed or served uh with metal detector and all those check-in and etc etc but so that's a good question what is I I believe it's an agrotourism event but somebody May argue otherwise and I told my view is that you know state has given us a wide latitude it's a it could be a pure cultural event uh it could be an animal event it could be a rodeo show it it could be a vedding at the farm all those things are agrotourism events so does the definition change if it was a private event versus a public agrotourism event so I handle weddings involving thousand people but even if we present it I guess we present it to the county that can it be thousand people I don't know if this number was specifically given but the question is if it is a vetting of thousand people which we can handle very well versus it's a public event meaning people can walk in even with a ticket even with a ticket but it's a free event so what is the does the definition change do I have to now still require fire department and PBSO uh approvals uh having thousand people for a wedding versus thousand people for an event like this uh do we still need approval from the Town and County if it is a private but large AGR tourism event uh what is the definition of large so I'm I have a 10 acres uh property and technically I can handle lot of people but my definition of large could be different from another 10 acre or 5 acre property so what is the definition of large and I think the final question or the topic I would like to bring in front of the committee is to have a very precise relationship with the county because I realize that we depend a lot on the County Fire and County Police Department so we need some more we need some more proactive engagement in other words I wished if they had visited my site in advance so at the last minute I don't have to have them do their inspections from a scratch or if I had discussed the traffic plan with PBSO in advance for example if I were an arrangement with a church or some other alternative parking site then at the last minute I don't need their approval again but I guess I would encourage as a committee my individual view would be to present our agrotourism events to the County Council uh County Commissioners and fire department and police department and I think we would be doing if I understand more and more of such events where people from other parts of the county or the state come and visit us we have narrow roads we have canals on one side I was told that this is an extra risk if you are located in the inner part of the town where you have a you know your roads are narrow which means you know you we we have extra scrutiny or Extra Care that is needed so all those things are good lesson learned but those are the big topics and at this time perhaps if everybody's okay I know our fire or our police our Police Department representative representatives are on the call I would love to hear their part of the before we get to to the um the sheriff's department i' just like to to say a couple things first of all as Mr Su indicated he came to to the town on on very short notice to his credit he always considered this event a special event um and one of the things this exper experience showed us is that the lack of definition that we have in our code um as to the the triggers that say this is a special event versus this is an AGR tourism event um there was a question from uh the audience that's probably worthy of discussion um as to why this Falls within the agrotourism um uh classification but as Mr Su has indicated and where our interpretation has been there's there's wide latitude um as to what is an agrotourism event on on property that's so designated um so the uh um the the issue that we're faced with when we when we look at this is okay we have an acknowledgement that this EV was certainly too big to be considered a regular um Agri tourism event at the same time there's been discussion um uh by the committee and uh that hey we the agrotourism providers should make the determination and don't set up a bunch of rules that box Us in um we're understanding of our business and all those kind of uh things and I think what this shows is you do have to have some sort of triggers when you look at it the the event when it originally uh came to us it was proposed that you know I think it was 4500 people when you look at the town's population I think we're about 3,800 people so that's a pretty good indicator that if you're going to bring more people um to an event than than live in the town um that's probably special and then when we started talking about it it was very quick that the the promoter and uh Mr Su indicated oh well you know I've indicated he'd had events of a thousand people uh on the site and so they agreed to to limit it or try to limit it to a thousand people but when you start getting into the machinations of what a thousand people means on a site um I think it's our opinion of staff that that on a 10 Acre Site that probably needs to be a special event regardless of whether it's a wedding or anything else just because of the magnitude of of the event to have a thousand people there at one time um I know Mr Swank has uh operation with a farm uh the farmers market I'm not sure of what your numbers are throughout but my my my um my uh uh understanding is that I think there's less than a thousand people there at one time there might be a thousand people throughout the day but less than a thousand people at one time I could be wrong on that and that's one of the things that we need to to flesh out here as to where some of these you know orders of magnitude are um and as Mr Su indicated there there are uh fire department regulations that get involved when you're dealing with um you know numbers of people in in that area and I think we've got uh somebody from the fire department here that might be able to speak to what those levels are um what our folks observed on site um because this event was not just going to it wasn't just a gathering of people there was going to be Amusement setups and some music set up and they had you know semis bringing um uh the the amusement uh things and the carnival rides um to the site and so you had the issue of the those semis getting on to the property where they were going to Stage from um there was at one time as I understand it there was some issues that uh ero was um I don't know if it was being blocked but you had semis lined up there and so that's going to make um the uh uh the traffic on the two lanes difficult um so we've got people here to talk about what the the problems were um but it really comes down to we've got to set some some triggers and standards about what is reasonable to diff differentiate between agrotourism event and a special event that does require um notice to the town involvement um in the town and approval by the town um Mr Su and the promoters could have taken the position that hey this is an agrotourism event we're um allowed to do it we don't have to give anybody any notice and you know let it rip he didn't do that um but based on our past discussions you know the some people might take the position that hey it's up to to me and then we would have been in a position of not knowing about it and trying to see if there is a way that it could be uh done um but getting into a situation where we got a a big event like that and you know we're we're trying to deal with it after it's already ongoing and that's obviously going to be problematic um so I just wanted to put that backdrop uh in there um that that's that's the purpose of this you know postmortem on the event that didn't happen uh um but uh we need to talk about standards and what the the problems are there are things that that I learned about from the the building department um as to you know when they need to be called for uh if you're going to have a tent on uh on site that's going to um have people in it uh the fact that a stage needs to be permitted um and those that's regardless of whether you're agrotourism or or not if you're incorporating those kind of things into to the event so with that um you know if you want to hear now from uh Captain Turner on the sheriff's perspective on this be happy to do it but I just wanted to make sure we're talking about if you would recognize me before we go on to Captain Turner I just want to point out that the town does not have its own police force and it does not have its own fire rescue and so therefore we either are covered as in the case of fire rescue by their Municipal um Municipal service taxing unit mstu or by contract with PBSO so those reviews while they do have their own standards those reviews are part of the process for the town's special event so I just wanted to clarify that one thing they certainly have far more rigorous standards than we do but um and also the other thing I wanted to point out is that what we have always said with regard to agrotourism um when it's an extension of your already existing business and you're able to handle all of the circulation on site with no impact on the road um that does not trigger us however we did when I say trigger us that does not trigger us into a special event um but I guess the question that's in front of us are there any additional inspections that are required um and I don't know the answer so I just want to clarify those two things if you're just doing an extension of your regular business all the traffic is contained on site and there's no offsite impacts sosd your agrotourism not a special event thank you for letting me interject that thank you Francy uh Captain Turner uh welcome to agrotourism committee we would love to hear your thoughts and recommendations and we would like to get a little bit educated on the on any regulations standards that we need to adhere to so please all right can you hear me yeah we can hear you all right um thank you for having me um I'd like to start with what you were saying between a private and a public event or what the town sees as a public event or what need what would need um law enforcement Presence at the event really we we leave that up to the individual town or city when it comes to private property on whether or not an event would raise to the level of needing um law enforcement presence there and if they contact us and say hey there's this event and and I think they that you guys need to be part of the security there then then that's what we do um the only thing we would usually ask for ahead of time is a little bit of leeway you know maybe a week or at least for five days to respond um and be able to find people to work that detail um we're in kind of a unique situation right now where uh President elect Trump has been coming in and out of town a lot and we are we are tasked with all the security uh for that President on all his moves to and from the airport or to and from Mara Lago to other location so he just happened to have uh a large uh foot print of law enforcement with him o over that weekend that you were looking to do to event so due to the the the request coming in the day prior and due to what our commitments were to the president-elect it just made it impossible to be able to turn around and get uh enough deputies to cover that event in time um so really what we would look for if you have a thousand or more people um I think the request requested one Deputy to be present that that there no way that there's no way we will ever have a single Deputy present at an event um it's it's a huge officer safety issue um so usually if you're looking at a thousand people I I'd have to get with the permit location I apologize I just was made aware this meeting uh about an hour before the meeting um but we there's a certain amount of deputies and and supervisors that would have to U be hired depending on the numbers and the type of event it is I I can get you those a little more of an idea of what that would be in the future but just to keep it simple for this on an event of a probably a thousand people you're looking at at least uh probably eight to 10 deputies and at least one supervisor for that event um and and honestly it depending on too if you're requesting assistance with po parking and everything else but it sounded like he might have had that that part of the situation handled where they would assist people with getting in and out of the property in the parking uh but just depending on what you're looking for assistance with just the presence alone is one thing if you're looking for assistance with getting in getting people in and out of the venue uh then that's a bunch more people that you'd be talking about so honestly if you're looking for anything in the future I would just say to to contact Francine and say hey we're looking to have this type of an event Francine can contact me and I'll contact you directly and ask what you're looking for and and walk you through the procedure of getting uh the permits requested to have coverage for your events in the future thank you Captain TR you're welcome I if you have any other specific questions I'll be more than happy to try to answer them I'm not sure if that covers what you're asking well I have one comment uh in this event uh they had uh had their internal security team I was told that there will be about 40 uh former police or off duty police officer working in the security company to provide security but I was also told that they have no jurisdiction on the public roads in other words if uh too many people are on the road and you want to direct them they they don't have the jurisdiction to do so in okobi uh so could you please clarify what inal security or private security can or cannot do on public roads such as well if if if if you were worried about that getting all the way down to blocking traffic along okobe boul that that is a bigger issue because what we'd have to find is a traffic pattern we could use to get them into the property whether or not it be coming up a different Le Road and then coming across North Road I'm I'm not exactly sure where it was but there's other roadways we might have to to tr have them traveled to to keep them off of okoba Boulevard um yeah yeah we don't they don't have the jurisdiction to stop traffic on okui Boulevard or or allow traffic to stay on okobe and block traffic so that's that's something that uh we would have to be involved with or like I said we can work with you to to have traffic go in a different pattern to keep them off ok okobe Boulevard um I don't know of any laws that say they can't help direct traffic on local roadways you know we have other people direct traffic um all the time on different events that are either County Employees or city employees so that would really be you know if it's up to the town if if they have anything in place that says we can't or they can't direct traffic on the on the private road or the or the the town roads um but as far as okachobee Boulevard is concerned yeah one of the things we'd look at is them not having enough traffic to stop traffic on that roadway because it's it's a main thorough Fair through the area yeah one of the things I should point out for is if uh a special event requires a 30-day notice to the town that's when the application is supposed to be received as I indicated in the in the memo um we the town tries to to work with um folks if they haven't met that um deadline and there are circumstances in which um you know on a a week or so uh notice we've been able to um to accommodate folks but the the simple answer for the town and maybe maybe the simple answer is what we should have gone with um is you need 30 days um 30 days notice on the application for us to to consider it and especially on an event uh like this and as you heard from Captain Captain Turner um uh if you're talking about changing traffic patterns and getting all that organized that's that's one of the main reasons that you need time uh to review a plan um so that you can implement the plan uh Captain Turner this is um Manish again um I have a question from the financial perspective let's say we submit an application 30 days in advance and you have 10 officers 10 officers and deputies there do you charge extra for that in other words does the event uh have to pay for such uh extra time or is it part of the uh included in the town Contract Services uh uh no PRI special events like that is not is not something that we would just give deputies for um any all the per permit are extra um they don't pay uh the full Deputy salary for IT there's there's uh they limit what the expenses are for each Deputy they're they're lower than what the cost of the actual Deputy would be but but no there's certain events that will assist the town with uh you know parades and other things that we have helped them with in the past but as far as coming up with like 10 deputies for something like that that's something the event organizer definitely would have to pay for thank you any other questions there was an example one time you know at the church where the town that threat me if I'm wrong paid for the police to direct traffic so I just wonder um is that a special um consideration only to the church or is that something like talking about a concert you know like this but that if it was some threshold of people that you know the town would pay for an officer perhaps to direct traffic to minimize offsite issues for an Agri tourism event because I think I think you know this meeting should be about um you know special considerations for Agri tourism because I think it's you know a beautiful thing for community but that's my opin any well I I I can tell you that I I don't remember us ever just given deputies to a church and if you look at uh some of the large churches in the area in West Lake uh look at Southern and 441 um all those churches actually pay permit deputies to come out and assist with traffic I didn't say that I I said the town paid for the officers is what we were told so I said somebody corly if I'm WR May i s sorry to interrupt maybe we will invite public comments at this stage I apologize but just to keep it going here would you like to add any comments to uming the yeah I just I just wanted to clarify that um the special event the separation between a regular AGR tourism event and a special event would be a thousand people or more is that correct no it what what considers it we we don't have a specific standard at this point in time that's what we're discussing and that's what we're we're discussing and I you know obviously or to me it's obvious that it somewhat depends on the size of the property um and what can be handled and then there is just uh anything of a a certain magnitude really struck me when you think about um a potential event having bringing in more people than the the population um and so I could you know if you're if you're talking about an event that has uh an excess of 10% of the population of this town maybe that's a that's an appropriate threshold regardless of size maybe maybe it's not maybe 500 is no big deal on a 20 Acre Site um our observation and you know folks will be able to talk about a little more is that probably a thousand people on a 10 Acre Site is something that needs to to really be looked at and and should should not be just granted as a as a matter of right because that gets very tight with parking and then it depends on what what you're going to have in there is every going to everybody going to be in a single tent or a couple tents or are you going to have other um amusements carnival rides those kind of things um are you going to have Amplified music all those things uh weigh into it but I think our my observation I I'll throw out there I think uh I think the standard is you know 500 now I'd be here i' you know for you for those of you who hand handle events of that size um you know tell me why that's not a problem but I mean for for us in our property I mean we had folks that have asked us about doing concerts before but I've always just I've never really pursued them because of what everything that's being discussed here with the amount of folks that you're trying to get in there and then you know some of the folks that I've spoken to about it they said they don't want to get in the business of moving people and that's what you're kind of having to do otherwise you're going to be queuing and you're going to be on the roadways and you're not going to be able to control that I mean that if it's a couple hundred cars that's a lot so that and and your my experience and your property is I have 20 acres 20 acres yes um and you do you do regular regular events wonderful dinners and at those dinners where everybody's gonna be there at the same time correct um what's what's the the number of folks that you generally handle well I mean the most we typ with the most we don't do any more than 240 people that's the most that we can even accommodate underneath our barn so that's the number that we cut it off at so I mean if it's two people per car you know sometimes it's four sometimes it's you know the small buses but I don't think we've ever gone over a 100 cars maybe you know 120 Max but most people car pull out that way because it's a little bit of a drive so if you were to have if we imposed a standard of of 500 um as a special event I at any given moment probably but if it's throughout the day let's say someone's doing the corn maze and it's going on for I don't know all day you could easily get that many folks coming through there absolutely we're talking about it at one if there's if it's anticipated to 500 at one time would you have any objection to considering that a special event I I would be okay with that I mean I you know I mean some folks might not be okay with that though you know I I think you must have to take that on a case-by Case basis I mean how you gonna execute it you have to have a plan it's gonna be a failed event if you can't execute and everybody's happy and and I think it's gonna be a disaster that's what happened at the folks down over here at the farm one when they did the Easter event with a thousand folks and it turned into a disaster and it put them out of business that's what happened to those folks so one event for put them out of those so I think if you had a if if there if the standard was was 500 you definitely have to get a special event you seem to be concurring with that because that does require extra extra planning thinking and all those kind of things and a plan to come come I mean if someone has 60 Acres or I don't know how the biggest flot is in the town but if they have you know 100 acres and they have five acres worth of parking and they have it set up up properly with you know multiple Ingress egress points I'm sure they could execute it you know but I would imagine the town would want to know that it's happening at the very least I mean to that scale right you to make sure everything's properly put in place to execute it properly I mean I think it's you know I don't know at the end of the day the far the VRI tourism events are to support the farmers I mean that's really what the basis of it was because we don't make any money it's just challenging it's a worldwide market for what we have to do this is what speaking to Marty before it's like I'm on my wits end with my business you know with the pressures I get from the community and then the county now with the tax base and all this nonsense it's really you know the amount of effort you put into it at the end of the day it's it's not even worth it I've been doing it for 25 years and you know I mean if everybody pressures these small enti their mom and pops these these businesses these aren't corporations at least mine is you know some folks might be in the corporate world trying to get into this business but to me it was set up to to help these folks that are just struggling to get through they put hundreds of thousand dollars out in their field and then they worry about losing it in a hurricane there's no protections for that so that's the reason why it's even in place and so these folks that come into any location throughout the state and set up these multi-million dollar facilities just to make money off Agri tourism isn't right in my opinion it's taken away from the hard folks that really need it and then it puts us into these predicaments and that's my opinion on the whole situation I I agree I agree with Daren um I we're in the business because we want to be farmers and we want to produce food the Agri tourism is an extra it's a bonus it's you know it's more work for us it's actually we would rather just make money off of our actual business and farming but it's a way to educate the community let them know that we're here um teach them about why our product is superior to what they're getting elsewhere um it's also a way to get the support from the community so that they can help support us at the county commissioner level so that when that developer comes in and wants to start buying up the properties people say no no no wait we want a local food and um so the AGR tourism isn't because we want to make an extra what 2,003 ,000 if that um it's not to make the extra money it's to it's to encourage people to support us and keep us for the long term I mean we saw what happened with covid and food and people need to wake up a little bit because if we start developing everything and we no longer have farms in palmach county and there's another virus or something that shuts everything down what are we going to do so there's barely Farms as it is right now and like Marty said we're and Darren said we're supposed to be trying to just educate the community get them to help support us and um decrease the obstacles not make them harder but I understand on your end you're trying to prevent issues from maybe people that don't understand our concerns and what we go through um no I agree with everything she's saying there um my um I'm getting back to the issue of what we were discussing in regards to the amount of people that separated from special events and you know um you know uh Swank does a lot of events dinners farmers markets everything like that so everyone's event will probably differ depending on the size of their facility um so for instance if somebody does take 500 people but they have a 40 Acre Farm and they're be able to park everyone inside the farm and it's not really causing any issues um is that considered a special event so do you get what I'm saying so we need to to iron out exactly what what that is is it based on size can is it based on vehicles being able to fit on the property proper without causing any offsite impacts you know so what what's what is it what's the issue on your your guys's end in order uh to make everyone kind of compliant excuse me if I can add to that um even still it would be I think um a little bit more complicated because you could have a 40 Acre Farm but you might have half of it developed somebody else might have a 30 Acre Farm and it's open so then you're going to restrict 30 acre to less people but they actually have more space available so how do we well they have to be able to fit the cars so if they have 40 acres but they only have one acre for cars it's not going to work at what's available for parking not the total size well I think that's what creates off say impact yeah and I think which is the parking I would say mostly the traffic yes and I and and I think when you start thinking once again about the town size um uh 500's not a bad a bad number that automatically it goes into that special event classification where if you're going to have that type of event where 500 people are going to be on the property at one time um that that means you come in for a special event um permit it's not it's not that your permit's going to be denied it's that you have to come in and it's the notice and everything that that you're talking about because regardless of the size of the property the impact on the roadways of having 250 or 300 extra cars coming at one time in this community is kind of a big deal um and it's not to say that you can't work it out and that you had queuing and all those kind of things but if you're going to have that kind of um size of an event it seems to me that it's rational that that you apply for special permit even if you do have 50 acres and certainly you're going to be able to accommodate it but you have to have a plan you know um and you know it it's different as Mr schang indicated his events you know uh at uh the 240 at one time kind of deal and there was in the beginning little bit of learning experience and everything now as I understand it he's got it down pat and everything runs super smooth and all those kind of things um but if you were to to do that as a first time event and you were doubling the size of that sure you're you're inviting a problem problem based on everything that you've gone through I'm sure right may I ask if somebody from fire department is on the line or is it uh you know I don't see them on the line but we did have fire rescue and the fire marshal come and if you recall they had numbers associated with what triggered you to have to get inspections and if you were under 35 people didn't matter if you were under a hundred people and it was only once then you might have to have an annual inspection um and if it was 300 or over you would have to have a fire inspection but we had the whole package of training that they did I don't think it would be a bad idea to see if we could get them um back if you'd like and we go over that because that might be what we tie our trigger to don't know and wasn't it wasn't it true Francine that with respect to a thousand person event they actually wanted to to make sure that they had um an ambulance on site where yes they wanted an ambulance on site a medic team on site um and they also as you know have to have the drive lanes and access um and um I think for us for the town stepping back for us it would not only be the number of cars you park on your property but the access to your property so if you just have one Culver Bridge that's a problem that's a little bit different than if you have you know two you know points of access so I think there's a couple things but I don't think there's anything we couldn't work out you know and a lot of times like I know it's not the same but kind of it is um you could take down any exotic trees you want in fact we hope you take them down but we hope you tell us that you're taking them down because your neighbor doesn't know what's exotic and what's native and they call and they say you're taking them down so one of the reasons I think to put a trigger on it is just to make sure that we know and I've said this before in our meetings that we know and we could say oh no they're good they're AGR tourism oh no they have planed for traffic oh no they have that and um we went through this with some properties particularly and I think that um you know it I think a as Mr Su said we we fell into formation very quickly and so if somebody had notified us a little earlier and there was no chance on that if we had been notified a little bit earlier there could perhaps have been Solutions and resources so I think that's why we want to pick a trigger and I think we have to look at the size of the property and available space as well as the access um and the other thing is you can always have off-site parking which is I think available to everybody right so so to add to that I think um it all boils down to what is the offside impact in terms of stacking traffic noise uh so the I think one of the questions I would like to discuss is let's say whether thousand people come at one time or they come during the course of the day or two days whether in AGR tourism attracts too much traffic like as long as it doesn't choke the roads off or doesn't create any safety issue I don't think we can basically say that you know this business is using roads too much versus another one who is not and another point is um each property is different for example you know at our property we have almost 10 acres are open and could be used you know front four acres could be used for parking so every property is unique I will tell you from the business point of view so leave the town regulations or County regulations or police and fire site for a second do you know that uh if fire department has not come to your site for an inspection and you have an adverse event let's say I somebody falls down or somebody gets shoted or something bad happens you will get sealed for that event because you are negligent so as a my suggestion to my friends who are listening is that do the fire inspection for your own insurance and liability reasons if nothing to do with whether you know somebody's interfering in your agrotourism business or not I'm saying I learned that I talk to my insurance company and all those people if you do these sort of best practices fire department comes in and you have medical onsite which this event was having uh you know there are private companies they'll have a you know person jumping if somebody has a heart attack or blood pressure faints off all those best practices are good to save you from legal liability so whether uh you know whatever the size is I think what we are saying is if there is a significant risk to the health and safety of the visitors or to the town people or if it is a significant offside impact to the neighbors to the town or it is a significant cost impact somebody comes and breaks down the roads or you know semis come in and destroy the you know go over limit on what is not allowed so all those things carry a cost so it's good to get those this things discussed so that you're not hit with uh any surp prizes but the bottom line is uh it's a good business practice but at the same time agrotourism businesses are protected so nobody can tell someone that this is not an agrotourism event or how many people you can have as long as you don't create an offside impact I can have th I can have 2,000 as long as it doesn't create an offside impact and it's an agrotourism event but then in that case I also carry the liabil so if something happens God forbid there is a stampede or somebody gets sick and ambulance doesn't reach on time please note that you are also at risk state law is not going to protect you from that kind of thing so keep the AGR tourism businesses as much unregulated as possible but when it comes to offside impact health and safety cost and risk to the town absolutely we have to have controls and I leave it to the committee members and the staff to suggest what those limits are you know and each property is going to be different so but I think if you tell the owners that if you don't do those things you can be liable trust me everybody will do those things right yeah Jeff D so the um circling back to the the uh fire department with the number of folks were the where they you have to have the onsite ambulance what do you know what those true numbers are or you don't know that I don't know it off the top my head and I think it was [Music] a when we were trying to um makeway y for this vent um we were told that we were going to likely need to have a medic on site for it and that was when we thought it was a th event th attendee event is that the code though that was that was in talking to our fire chief it was not going back through the code or anything like that well I mean to me if you use the code the fire code is safety so safety first or whatever that number would be is probably where you would want to put your number right exactly that's what I would do but if the fire chief tells you something you kind of assume that's really good I would just verify whatever that true number is you know where you're at right yes no no absolutely we just do know that when the Thousand the Thousand person event did trigger the need for and I I'm I probably misspoke with an ambulance but the emergency medical team sure can I ask a question this racing track on uh Southern I was told and carry much bigger events without any sort of such reviews is it because they're commercial and have already been approved by fire department to have th000 or 2,000 or 5,000 people or is it what is the difference between race track doing it and agism Jack please come to the microphone that's why we have everybody here because they all know the specific rules it is back okay good evening one more time my name is Jack Thomas I'm the build official pleasure to meet you all uh so I I'll just just few things so so the race truck is not an approved uh um events they are in violations that are under code enfor codee enforcement hearings and they are being fine and that is really bad example of following so I just want to state that uh we are they've been Insight they've been decided it's a it's a not improv operation so that that's about that portion um to help you with your event I I had been involved for last 20 over 20 years in organiz not organizing by regulating the events in Wellington and there's a good process in place in palish county that will help you and none of that process is to stop your events agriculture agric tourism is it's a great great uh support for agricultural and I bring people in introduces them to the land and farm operation and and I think that's all great the system that that operates and you know in in the questions we had the same type of events that were organized uh where it started in as a as a first event under the tendon and became permanent events where now are successful world events of you know where they have horse shows and Dr and everything else so that that that's how it was created so the the system works and and it'll help you the good planning is everything uh because um we had I've been involved in permitting events day before it just adds stress to everybody because you have to have a building permit issued you have to have an inspection so you can let the public in and enjoy it safely so one of the items is the special events permit where fire department gets involved in there early they'll determine the number of occupants they will determine the turning radius for their fire trucks with and they always determine the worst case scenario where you have the most and something bad happens and they only they don't only talk about someone having a you know faint or heart attack they they they consider mass shootings and everything else that can happen in the same situation so um so that is always helpful so by applying for this permit it's special use it's not a building permit yet but it's a special use permit where they get to look at the side along with the building department and we see the the access safe access for fire trucks and everything in and out and then the other thing is the building permits for uh with all the exceptions that apply to Agri tourism I don't want you to to to think that I'm putting regulations on you I'm just you know trying to explain that there you know the even with Agri tourism there's some structures that you want to permit and inspect it stages are one of them um to be safe uh sometimes stages are crowded during concerts the building department will come in and make sure the stage is put together so can support whoever is going to be on that stage not to you know stop your event but to make sure it's safe there's a barriers there's handrails there's other things um T Fire Department in pish County I've learned and uh you know anything 900 feet or less is exempt uh less than 35 people is exempt um you want to when you erect the tents where you going to put a lot of people in a based on the uh either per square footage or uh if you have fixed sitting with the tables um you want to make sure that people can safely get out and that is always that that's the only concern that the people can safely get out and leave the say side in case of fire shooting or anything else so those are the two steps that we always done it U that we would do overall uh permit for um special event where we would look at the entire site make sure it can handle and then per building or per tent or per structure to make sure that the structures are not over occupied that people can safely exit and um and that system when it's put together ahead of the event with everybody has time to review it it works very well and I think um fire department and and as as well always are super accommodating to make sure that you get inspections long as you apply for a permit and you get your approvals we get to review that everything on paper works then either day before or two days before or a week before we go to your site and make sure that whatever works on papers Works in life and and we can everyone here would accommodate that and I know fire department I've seen them accommodating and this is the time also where they determine do we need one ambulance or more than than one and and what else do we need to save operate out there and make sure your event is successful and protected like you mentioned so you don't have a if this there is something that actually happens you've done everything possible to prevent it then nobody will have a issue with that can I ask a question so let's say a farm let's take an example of U Farms they do a Halloween event where public can walk in anytime so are you saying in in that case they don't know how many people can come at any point in time so how would you relate to a situation like that where Farms are open for a Halloween night which happened recently so how do you do they need a permit or do any for for the open events yeah for the public events that there is open to the public I I don't know the number of people that you have to invite obviously if you invite 10 that's not an issue but if it open to the public you don't have a count how money is going to be and then you know I was always explaining to to to my employees in the building department that you know Public's Supermarket it's a private company but they are open to the public anybody can walk in so they have to be safe they have to have fire sprinklers they have to have accessibility for disabled they have to all that it's a private company it's not a public owned by government it's owned by private person but it is open to the public and the same thing applies to anything else if you have your private event on the on your backyard for your family or members it's a private event that doesn't have to be compliant with all these rules but the minute that you open to the public um you do you know and then there's events where you do for veterans and you know a lot of public events requires accessibility with accessible parking and handicap I think specifically events where you when you when you do it for for veterans where there might be you know fortunately not but maybe maybe bigger number of disabled people that want to enjoy every part of your your event to make sure they can access it so so those are the things to consider Well Jack in The Right to Farm Act a 23.14 um buildings that are outlined in chapter 6 33202 are exempt except that class 2 in 63322 defines a nonresidential Farm building used by the owner for agrotourism activity with up to 300 persons occupying the structure at any one time they need an annual permit so the number at any one time is 300 um and you definitely don't need anything if it's under 35 the question in between there is if you have regular events because if you have 12 events during the year that have at least a 100 people at them this same rule makes you have an annual inspection fire inspection and I also looked up while we were talking because I did know that rule of thumb on the thousand people or more is at least one ambulance 1,000 to 10,000 people is at least one ambulance under a th000 is a full first aid station and over 10,000 you have to have multiple ambulances and a medic team so just wanted to clarify that and special Amusement buildings are a separate classification in the law and they require a separate inspection even if it's just for Halloween night and I think the occupancy for those are less than the 300 and more than the 35 I think it's 50 but I'm not the building well but a lot of it has to do with particular buildings not necessarily the S side uh it's it's what I know it's less and and more that's all I know but like I said a lot of it a lot of it is particularly by the building if you have a tent uh or you know tent there is en close depends on the size and how many people you actually have in it um that's what that's what this regulations do um Jess Jessica with with respect to the T um if if somebody is using a a tent as part of their AGR tourism operation to to Stage an event and assuming it's over the the size if you were going to put uh a 100 people or 200 people in it um that tent needs to get a building permit and an inspection each time it's erected correct right well the idea is that it's put together you know there there's a there's a lot of companies right now they have a standard drawings for tents and you use any of them Jamaica tent or any of them they they have a paperwork ready they've been permitting throughout the county everywhere they submit that it takes us couple hours to review and and and and then fire department if reviews as well if it's over 900 square feet and we'll give you permit and then before event we go out inspect make sure it is put together uh you know that doesn't fall or trap anybody in there and that's that's the whole goal so yeah every time yeah every time it's erected yeah that's the whole idea because you know you get put together a lot of times is rented for season or one event and it gets disassembled returned and then so idea is that before you know it's occupied by the public it's it's inspected um and that's the same thing with the the stages each time the the stage is assembled and disassembled that triggers another permit and that's regardless of what the you know whether it's an agrotourism site or um a commercial site um there's stages that that collapsed there's bleachers that collapsed and the idea is that you want to have them inspect and make sure they put together right that's that's the whole idea so so hope I shine some light on your events thank you thank you one of the things when you talk about stages and I don't know exactly what the the setup was but and andt um is the question that was raised about Amplified um music we have talked about the the actual deciel readings are very very minor I'm probably talking at about a 50 55 decibel uh level right here in in this room and it might be a little higher because of the amplification of the mic that's the that's the Level under our code um that triggers a noise violation if it's continuous for um more than 15 minutes at at your neighbor's property so Amplified music in in an open environment um is going to exceed that level on at your neighbor's property and just it just is on a a 10 Acre Site that's you know you've got a a 600 foot um boundary between where you could have put that and the uh uh the neighboring property um and so that's one of the questions that I've got is Amplified music in the open should that be permitted at an AGR tourism event of course without Amplified music there is no event how can you have an AGR tourism I guess that's a part of the whole integrated but the question is what are the timings and what is the limit I mean that now let me give you an example if I operate my tractor or if my neighbor is operating their agricultural equipment or some sort of device it is going to create some and those things are protected so if those things are if a tractor on a Full Throttle is okay until a certain time I guess music has to be okay too so I would love to hear your thoughts but I I I kind I I've been saying that some from the beginning yeah I mean weat eaters blowers mowers Dixie Chopper chainsaw I mean you hear this from lot lot lots away and the 60 acre Polo Field they're running their equipment day in and day out seven days a week and you hear every bit of it all day long so if they're not if they're out of compliance then you know from what you're saying they'd be out of compliance so why we shutting those folks down I thought or anybody that's mowing their lawn or weed eating blowing that's yeah we got time I said it wasn't it's not substantial for the days of the year that's what I've been saying from the beginning because the key word is substantial in the statute everybody needs to remember that set it up to um be based on a time limit deci that we would be done I think what was it 9 o' on a Monday through Thursday 10 o'clock was the S 10 o'clock on weekdays 11 p.m. on weekends correct and that's what and then we said we go special occasion for Christmas cleaning well exactly like years right but we didn't recommend decb because it's impossible it just wouldn't be fair that you're going to imp that on the that's what I'm saying if you if you're gonna play music on site for 500 or a thousand people I guarantee you that it's exceeding the decibel level at your neighbors if it's in an open environment sure if the music is playing in a building or in a tent or something like that that obviously mitigates the the sound somewhat um but you're going to definitely be in in violation of any decel level that uh you know the normal conversation of my pole barn with no music is 65 to 70 DB right soon as you add the music it's about 88 to 90 depending on what song it is per se and that you know but I try to keep it low because people won have conversation so I always say to try to keep it in a level to where if you see people leaning for the conversation then it's too loud and that's what I try to shoot for when I do mine all right so Darren you're you're saying that you're keeping the the decibel reading within the building at about under a 100 oh yeah for sure I try to keep it below 80 that's where I try to keep it I mean obviously it goes see it depends on what song you're playing it really does I mean some songs are very quiet and some songs are more loud so it depends on the song h cor on full-blown concerts so so can we bring it together this event that we're talking about was going to be a full-blown concert full-blown concert giant stacks of speakers everything so this is not you know the shank's normal home thing I think what we're getting at like because we're all going in circles here is this kind of event we we brought it down to a thousand people by the end of Sunday there was 8,000 people registered to go to this event so that's why we're trying to say like we need to go like break this down of all right you have this how many people per per an acre per size because this event was well put up together way before we ever thought it was this band I mean not band but the stage full-blown professional stage full-blown professional sound system company I guarantee you Oak chy Boulevard and Southern Boulevard would have heard the ban going on from his property M it was going to be that loud but what time were they going to be done by nine o'clock and then to me that would be fine okay because correct I mean if they're going to 1 in the morning one o'clock in the afternoon till 9 o'clock at night right I mean but if they're not if they're going to 1:00 am that's me if you guys are saying you're fine with that for me if if I was a neighbor it's not it's not every day they're talking about one day at 1 3 365 I mean they doing this okay fine on yours you're talking thousands well dude anything above 100 anything above 180 you're damaging your ears so yeah anything I think it's anything above 80 you're damaging your ear I think it's 80 that's I mean that property was going to be enormously loud well I mean to me it's if they're if they're doing that we're trying to say here I'm sorry to keep interrupting but right we're talking you're talking your guys have been is an event right we're saying a special event is this event was a monster special event was going to be monster well that person from what they're saying on the fire code above the 500 a thousand folks or wherever they were with the fire code if that triggers into what you're saying then I think it's that is what it is yeah you know what I'm saying so but we're saying are you guys okay having up to 5,000 people on an event here no I don't think anybody's saying that miss the beginning part I'm sorry we were late coming in but how was that concert related to AGR tourism that's what I wanted to know who's holding it is it yours yes was another s they came to us at the last minute it was a farm sort of a con Ving how is a wedding an agism or how a dinner on a look people can it's the wide latitude in my personal View Farmers are given wide latitude to bring additional customers culturally otherwise to theform I I think there was a lawsuit in Jupiter where neighbors sued a ranch because they said these fancy lavish wearings have nothing to do with the farm if they're using the farm produce no no it's the I know those folks that's white trails was and they won in court they went to to to to the magistrate or whoever it was it was a magistrate and I believe they won the case and that was the end of it and and I just went to that facility a couple days ago for a Farm Bureau event and the neighbors moving so if you don't if you can't deal with it I guess you're out that's pretty much where it's at I think one thing and that leads back excuse me and that leads back to where I said that these folks when they move into the agricultural Community they need to know where they're moving they're not moving into blue skies and stars and and that's and that's it you know out in timbuck two they're moving into an agricultural Community that's designated for this purpose okay and that's why we're here and that's why I'm here because that's where I was told to go before the town even existed and that's what the zoning is and that's what you're allowed to do so now if these folks move into that community and say I want you know PUD or I want the homeowners association all this that the other thing then you don't belong in this town and that's it I'm not going to argue with that I just want to state for record yeah I want to state that record too I and I'm with you I want to stay for the record we never questioned Mr Su about whether it was AGR tourism because what we decided in these meetings for the first go round of this committee was that we weren't auditing agrotourism and in fact the state said that if you tell me it's AG tourism I mean unless it's some kind of egregious you know difference than it's agrotourism so we're living by that the issue for us is really again the offsite impact and I guess after this learning experience we do kind of think that there might because of the poor conditions and the smallness of our roads that we really have to focus on the management of traffic and we really need to look at if there is a trigger number and the best best practices call that trigger number 10 to 20% but best practices also say that you can get about a hundred people per acre standing and 50 people per acre sitting so there's a whole bunch of triggers that we can look at um and that I think we kind of want to put together with you because we don't want to dampen or in any way um limit agrotourism what we want to do is we want to control the offset impact to the town so when this project came in what we did and that's why everybody's here so you could ask us detailed questions about what we did big problem is the staging of the event you know you have to go ahead and Stage the event on your property and I called Mr Su nice and early on a Sunday morning about that and then so that's an issue for us how do we get you staged it has to be on site I think the other issue is we need a little little bit more lead time but not so much because Captain Turner said hey he'll help us out in a week or two weeks right the County's actual time frame for that is 90 days if your event is over um 24 hours but as Captain Turner said it depends on the town and our number is 30 days so um you know so I don't think anybody here wants to dampen or dissuade or do any anything to take away from the agrotourism I think the issue is you know at what point um do we need to know what that trigger is you know just like again you know how how big well that leads to the the the fire department and their numbers and I'm agreeing with you I like the fire department number at the end of the day if you don't have an ex sexual event at your facility it's not your it's going to put you in Jeopardy right exactly but just what you said right yeah crazy to think maybe if it's a large event having checkin time like Windows when you if you're selling tickets you know the like this you know 50 people check in between 8 and 8:15 and so that you are not shoving you know congesting Ro all at once I don't know if you can execute that mayed to the property owner so the only comment I would like like to make is when this event was being proposed one of the reasons we said no you can't do 4,500 people you have to limit to a thousand and even with the Thousand we said it's got to have offsite parking because the location of this event the traffic in and out there's no way that you're going to get those kind of cars up and down that road but even with that said in conversing with the Sheriff's Office even Fire Rescue all it takes is one person with an iPhone even if they don't tell them the location they tell everybody go to Target because the agreement we made with them is call Molly's trollies call somebody like that have you know contact the church contact somebody have them park the cars off site take a bus back and forth so that way the vehicle we were even trying to get them to not have the vehicles enter the town you know go to the Target the Super Target see if you can borrow their back parking lot that has nobody in it have a trolley going back and forth to the property that way you have one or two vehicles that are going back and forth instead of a thousand Vehicles trying to go up and navigate these roads even with that you know the conversations I had with the sheriff's office in fire rescue is all it takes is one person with a cell phone an Apple phone and drop a pin now you know where the event is and next thing you know the Sheriff's Office the town the residents everybody else has a nightmare because now everybody's like the hell that I'm not parking at a freaking Target taking a bus I'm just going to drive to the event and next thing you know we're have a thousand Vehicles up and down and what I'd recommend is go on like we watch the Youtube of some of these events he's had in the past and these aren't tiny events they're not quiet events either they're they're ridiculous so they're they're although he did cancel part of it he was gonna do he was gonna get rid of the car show part of it because like he does a whole car show and the whole nine yards when he when this guy does this event um but yeah our my concern is the offside impacts it's the damage of the roads the TR the increase in traffic and we already have 177,000 cars a day that go up and down to K Boulevard add 4,500 more cars to that I mean to me that that event should have been at South Florida Fair I mean who's ever organizing this event to do it on a 10 acre parel T grow is it's not fair well he was supposed to do it he was supposed to do it that was another sort of red flag he was supposed to do on H Hill Road okay and I for exactly how the media worded it but they worded it very carefully to not say the city shut him down they worded it that the I forget exactly what their wording they used was but that they were very careful in how they used it and so they basically told them no we can't provide what what you need to have this event on this property and that's when they contact if they would have called us I would have told them the same thing I like you're out of your mind and you're never it's going to be a disaster and and honestly if the event was closer to like we even tried to use the uh the racetrack out there off next to the college they would have done it there because an In-N-Out access would have been better Park they could use a lot next door to park everything else would have been fine that far north or like where you're property is or you know you know you're TR you're talking you would have to travel two and a half miles up you know and part of it being a dirt road um because of you know where his residence is and it would have been it would have been a nightmare you know closer to okachobee maybe on Southern maybe that would have been a better venue but even then the number of vehicles and when you got more people coming in and out of the Town than actually live in the town that's problematic no I think that's a good suggestion offsite parking arrangement shuttles and all that good stuff so I think just to bring it back home I think what we are saying is with respect to the sound let's control it with the time duration than putting any decibel limit because it's very difficult to control it and people who are listening to this or may watch it on YouTube I want them to know that agrotourism or agricultural businesses like us are keeping your tax base low uh businesses like us are the reason this town is green with an open land so yes there is a price to it nothing comes free so there is going to be sound of a tractor there is going to be sound of a wood cut you know some machine or sound or something happening so agrotourism is is a part and parcel of the foreign business so that is part of it so that comes with it so I think time is much the the time window is much more relevant in this case of a recommendation would anybody like to second that motion no control on decibels but only on the time I'd second that second all in favor agreed agreed with with within obviously the AGR tourism business that we do you know so so obviously not special events is obviously something else you know what what what you guys are discussing seemed like a special event more than a regular Agri tourism event if he was doing that on a daily basis that would be considered his business and then it would have to restructure the whole thing to make it work if it's just happening once in a blue moon then that would be a special event I would imagine let interject here let's pass one motion and then we will take another one sure so the motion is for Bonafide act businesses who are by State law permitted to do AGR tourism events we are not regulating sound decibels but the time duration on which they can operate with higher sound levels so I think in the previous committee you had said on a week day those sounds could be up to what time in the night we said 10 we said 10 p.m. on weekdays 11:00 p.m. on weekends weekends that's the motion any and would like anybody like to Second it well what about the uh special occasions New Year's Eve New Year that's to midnight that's to Midnight Special Events New Year okay like to Second it I would second that Mr all in favor yeah okay now could you please specify your motion what would you like to add in regards to you just mentioned something around special events no I was just saying that um you know what they were mentioning with a large amount of traffic and all that stuff I mean that was it's not something that would be conducive to every single week that you'd be doing something like that would be considered a special event so they're basically saying that what what point do we consider it a special event versus a traditional Agri tourism week like like he has his events every week I have mine once a month whatever it may be but they're standard and that's what we do as our business now if it's come something that that we're doing different that's completely different than our regular business and it's going to have way more people and way more offset impact that's something else so that's I would agree with them in regards to that being considered a special event doesn't mean you can't do it we'd have to go and be like hey I'm trying to do something that's a little different it's way bigger help me out so I can get it done just common sense okay so let me let me specify that once again uh my understanding is this privilege of AGR tourism and this sort of rights are afforded only to the right to form right to AGR tourism to the bonified egg businesses if there is a property out there who's not an egg property and they want to do these fancy events every day do kind of parties every day that has nothing to do with the AGR tourism right so that's one situation the other situation is let's say some agrotourism business some form decides that they would like to do some sort of dinner every day and they want to play music every day I don't think we can regulate that no we cannot and and when when we say special events in other words let's say every dinner is 200 people coming and every dinner they work with fire and police or if they if it is the best practice they do everything we can't say you can't make noise every day or whatever day that is so is that are we on the same page that in AGR touris business M can do events every day if they wanted to okay yeah but we're not talking about that we're talking about size we're talking about if it's 2,000 8,000 people on 10 acres is going to be a problem so let me let me suggest another Motion in that regard what we are saying our recommendation is let the Town come up with a recommendation on the offside impact on traffic stacking health and safety and extra cost factor meaning somebody destroys their culbert where semis are not allowed to go whatever those parameters are let them come come back with that recommendation and that then guides whether somebody needs a permission to do an AGR tourism event remember every event as a farm that they do on the farm is an AGR tourism event what we are saying is certain agrotourism events can be called special events based on those extraordinary effects that it can have but they are still in agis correct absolutely but we're talking about extra numbers no let them come back to us what those are what we've been talking about earlier was uh you know 300 to 500 um you know the suggestion was made let's look at the um the the fire numbers and everybody seemed to be in agreement that 500 um would would qualify as a special Jeff if I may interject if the event is happening in open like let's say this event was in open I was told that fire department has much more flexibity if you are putting them in a closed room or a tent that is closed where there's extra fire hazard numbers are totally different so I think there are two consideration one is the external extraordinary health and safety traffic impact another impact is within that property what fire department allow house for example a fire department can come to my property and say even though 500 people can come in I'm only allowing you to do 100 people under this tent and that's my limit that has nothing to do with the special event permit I don't need to come to town for hosting 100 people or 500 people that's a totally different argument my point is that if this is an extraordinary traffic stacking health and safety cost Factor RIS RK that dictates your special event permit but fire department approvals are needed regardless even if I have 20 people 50 people 100 people my understanding is you you are required to do health and safety inspections based on what the event is Under the Tent closed in a barn open entirely open all those factors yeah that dictates the capacity of the Vue right yes but what we discussed earlier was that um 500 would have an off-site impact um and you know we were talking about uh it being double the kind of event that um the [Music] you're at a special event and well Jeff but now we talking about any given moment in time are we talking about we're talking we're talking what we're talking about is 500 at one time being on the property okay yeah not not 500 across the the day where you're open for 10 hours and people are coming in you know 50 or 60 an hour uh you know no we're talking about those events that would be 500 at one time um and that that uh is a standard um that would certainly um trigger a special event now would that be restricted into the three special events per calendar year no not necessarily that's that's okay so I just want to stipulate that that's a because that was one of the stipulations of the Town back in the day right and what we're talking about is we're talking about coming up with um some new special event uh regulations um and and putting that standard in and as a part of that if it's part of your regular uh sort of your regular business operations I don't think it would be limited to the three maybe it would be limit maybe there would be some limit on it um and we can talk about whether or not that would be once a month or uh something along those lines that's ripe for discussion um but no the the three is probably too Limited um and can you know but one of the thing one of the things is I don't know uh Min yeah how how many events do you do of that size per year it's not I'm not on the committee I don't think I'm supposed to just look for myself in trust I may be guided by it but that's not the parameter here I'm looking for overall for our town and for our agrotourism businesses this is nothing to do with me uh in particular but having said that I don't think so let's use the word everything is an AGR tourism event and within agrotourism event there are special Mega siiz agrotourism events where town and police and fire have to provide extra support let's let's first Define that and what you are saying is let that be defined as 500 people simultaneously at any property at any given time but like we just discussed a small 2 acre egg or a 5 acre egg or a 10 acre act 500 may have a different simultaneously may have a different meaning so why don't you think about the you know you can control like somebody located like I am all the way back has a very different consideration like a form that is on okobi some form is right on okobi so their definition may be different so what you're saying is the Mega siiz agrotourism events require a special permit but what we are saying is there should not be any limitation how many of those events can happen or when can they happen there is AGR tourism is open for all agrotourism businesses and as much as I don't want to have traffic and noise coming next to my home but that's the deal we are in an AG agricultural community so now if somebody abuses that system some big Mega Corporation buys a 40 Acre Farm calls it a fake farm and makes it an event place of course Town should take an action but that's that's what I was actually going to say um AGR tourism May occasionally have these large events that we are going to call special events and we need and we should come and just consult and everything however not all special events should fall under Agri tourism no no this would be this this the special events would apply to the churches and all those kind of things and when they're doing their special events it would be the same sort of triggers that we need you know to differentiate for example between a regular service and you know where I'm having the carnival at my church I mean I don't have a problem with you know making sure the event safe and Ingress and egress and all these factors are taken care of but to restrict or limit the number of events for an Agri tourism operator to execute throughout the calendar year I don't think that should be a part of decision and once again it it's the it's the special event issue right but even if they you know as long as it's not more than substantial and no one can seem to clarify that so and how do we um I I don't think you can restrict that by state law you can't I mean the substantial impact certainly but not the number of events per calendar year do we want to restrict well if we eliminate the possibility of somebody coming and buying property and saying that it's agism putting up a dam well I I for me to try to tell you what rules to make but I think somebody mentioned following the fire code and so if we go back and we lay something out that kind of approximates the fire code considering access to the property and size the property then then you could start tearing it up from there one thing I would point out no fire inspection is necessary if you have a 100 people 12 times a year but if you have 300 people one time a year you have to have an inspection I said that wrong under 100 12 times a year you're okay at 300 one time you got to have an inspection so we can kind of follow those kind of rules and you can you know what what is the right word when you um adjust the numbers modify the numbers that they fit whatever yeah okay um is that okay we'll do like a table you know and the reason I was asking about the the the number of times is from what we've heard you know um the the Swank operation would not be effective it would not be affected so the and I know Mr Chamas doesn't have any event that remotely gets into to that region I'm not really sure about Year events we've done like one dinner per year at maybe 150 people yeah so you're at a totally different level the only person up here who can speak to having these large events is you Mr Su and and so the question is is that something that happens every week or is it a once a month or how many how many events have you had that have been between that 500 and a thousand type of level so look on the top of my head those are not usual occurrences but I don't want to limit my as I said it's not about me but any a business tomorrow any one of us can decide hey I want to do this vedding business wedding hosting weddings or birthday events or a events you know who knows but the point is the the max limit is decided by the fire and health and safety that's the max limit and I as I understand if you're doing an open Event you can have different number of people if you are putting them in a closed structure then your limits are different and similarly inspection standards are different as well so uh that's point one point two is to if you have a mega siiz agrotourism events and let's use the word special agrotourism event here is my question are you going to charge extra so let's say if I do 600 people buing because more cars are coming on the road or more Town resources are required apart from me giving extra to the police and fire for their permits do I have to pay extra for not when I say I I'm not referring me as a person I'm saying there would be there would be a special event uh permit fee that would be Associated a business uses too much traffic then that business has to Shell some more money then my question is you know I'm not looking at a nursery who has trucks coming in and out or some other business are they paying more because they're more traffic coming I don't think we should panelize a business and a f business just because Mr Swank has 200 people coming every Saturday he shouldn't be paying more for the RO if I have only 5050 or somebody has 25 that has no logic when you're talking about a special event permit no I'm just saying that I just I just once again it's it's a it's an issue of of scope and let's say for argument sake let's say we we land on that 500 um number our special event permit I think is currently 250 it's in that range even if it was $500 you're talking about a dollar you know 50 cents to a dollar a person that's not going to impact the economics of having that kind of event I'm gonna state that flat out can I State something also on the record no there are cost around paying the PBSO as we just learned that they have to have certain staff available then there are cost with the fire department ambulance and medic and all that you have to have now on top of it what I'm asking is is there a thought process that if a business has everyday let's say forer Market they have 100 cars coming every day since that business is using the road little too much now we are going to charge them little too much little more than somebody else is that the thought that you're going to charge somebody based on how much traffic not a flat fee I'm asking is there a variable component because this traffic damages Road more more Port holes let charge Mr suit some more because he does Farmer Market every Saturday and Sunday he's damaging EOD is that the thought no I'm I'm not I'm not I'm not envisioning that it's it it's got to do with the the notice and making sure that the impacts are minimized on the um on the property on the um the rest of the town that traffic has been taken into consideration that um parking has been taken into consideration that you do have a plan for all the the kind of things that that that come up um with these events um you know and I the only thing I'm you know on the reason I can say categorically that $250 or $500 is um uh is not a big issue in planning an event of that size um is because uh I have five daughters four of them whom are married um and we had much smaller events and 25 was not issue yeah no I I just want just want to make that clear that look if I understood town is basically making sure PBSO fire everything else is done and you're aware yeah actual Manpower services are actually provided by PBSO or on that day maybe fire department so and are monitoring everything I you're right that's not a significant but I'm asking it I'm bringing a bigger topic I don't think anybody on the committee is uh saying that just because somebody's attracting more traffic we have this notion that now that business has to pay more it's not no we're not doing an impact Fe I don't think the talent's in that position even stating on I haven't heard that ever that can't be the case good you're good all right I think we covered everything what else is anybody else has any points no is this the last meeting by the way I was told this committee is going to be dissolved no I we we'll we'll bring back um we'll bring back some proposed legislation with respect to uh special events on the discussion and um the other the other items that you all have discussed uh at the previous meetings will'll have a W up meeting um I am this is November I'm I'm thinking we had originally thought that we would meet in December um but uh I'm not sure that we've got enough time and maybe January would be the time for us to come back and and get together so just so you know you know i' like to listen and think and look at the same time so here's what I'm going to suggest and that is um Hernando County has recently put out some guidelines for the numerous wedding venues that they have at their agrotourism entities um but given that they're a lot bigger than we are then I'm going to suggest that we look at Williston Florida because they have the same population as us and they have something called Amber brck Farms which does a number of concerts which are louder and more frequent than anything we do here so if we go and we look to a couple of similar things um something like that that's around our population size we'll come back thinking about the fire relate fire regulations the per acre for parking and people and whatever other rules that somebody else does for noise aside from the hour that we agreed and you guys can vet that thing up is that fair yep okay and if there's any other places that you've heard of that are small and intimate like we are that have very public events let us know because you know it's great to go to a concert on a farm oh right yeah I think it's called like the strawberry farm it is called the Strawberry Farm let me tell you what it is called because I did look it up there's Berry Farms Harvest Festival which we had looked at that because we had some people come in and look at red clover that wanted to do something here like there and then there's also and this one sounds interesting Good Earth Farms chicken pick and Community Music Fund in East Palatka which I imagine also has a lower population probably not as small as us so I think we can go and look at you know some of these other ones and have a good time yeah what one last thing Jeff Jeff could we please from the terminology perspective call it a special agrotourism event I don't want us to be mixed with other special events like a normal business a commercial business or a church or somebody else Nursery doing something else has nothing to do with us far moves meaning Bonafide egg could we call it special agrotourism events we will look at that but my inclination was that it would be better uh to define the special event and say that uh you all fall within that special event um classification rather than rather than try to specifically regulate um no no well if you do that then you're G to have that three entity per year situation on these folks well no I'm unless you have an exemption for that I'm saying that in the writings I'm saying we got to look at that um differently anyway okay we don't want everybody else no I I I understand the concern there but I mean as far as the size of the event I think that's uh it the off-site impact is going to be the same whether it's a church doing an event with 1500 people or um you know a farm doing it no what what I'm saying is we as farm at Bonafide a have special privileges powers granted by the state not everybody else has the same so we are much more lenient meaning the the parameters are much more lenient I guess don't want other people take but and we don't want other people taking advantage of that exactly in a negative way yeah we don't want people throwing backyard parties and you know buying up standard commercial things and doing these kind of things so this should be only limited to agrotourism AMS that's what we so I just want to say as an outside I come in and I see that and you're saying it's okay how me I buy 30 acres here and I throw concert I come get an event thing I throw coner every single weekend and and I'm act exemp you're saying it's okay I mean as long as that business is a Boni agricultural entity you have to be an entity you just can't it happens it happens all the time are we put in a stipulation on this or just saying concerned about somebody coming the intention already of we're gonna host concerts everywhere and I'm gonna have five on the property and have concerts I'm just trying to I'm trying to protect us as the accounts as if you come in from the outside and you see them and say hey I can throw a concert every weekend I can buy this property I put fees on it I can say I'm a bonafied egg right you guys ask say I can go concert every weekend at 300 people easily 500 you're saying every single week and every single day I'm good as long as it's not substantial impact on the town you certainly can by the state statute yes you can do that I'm just saying it's the statute you have to read the statute and the statute allows you to do that that's a true statement the thing is they are always going to be some bad people you're right you're right stating that as an outside person say coming down the street and they see it and you're saying I'm Bonafide act I can do it whatever I want at this you're opening a can of worms if we don't put a a limit on this but you can't Rule and regulate it that's the that's where you're at with it and they tried to do that towi trails with their facility and if you go there it's literally right on the road and they were having weddings probably every weekend and they took them to court and the facility won they won in the State and the court and that's as far as I want and that was it so if somebody is famili with that intention of not being true agriculture then where do you how do you define that I don't I mean if you have the county defines it they're trying to stop me from saying my pig pasture Pig operation should be on an acre and a half and I tell them I use six Aces and I'm in a battle with them I might have to take them to court and the same there you go count is trying to limit prohibit me from doing my operation it's against the rules so correct we asked in the beginning of this committee do we have complaints around this we were told hardly any we haven't had any issue like this so far I'm not I'm just no but if it happens as we said we're not going to over regulate but if it happens if people abuse the system and try to do this thing then but you're saying there's no abusing no if I'm saying people I mean you know I'm saying you're saying they can and I'm I agree with you that they certainly could I'm saying that people do abuse it and but that's when they take them to court the The Entity wins at least that's what's happened in the past well I think we have a good approach to go forward what about you Jeff yeah I I do Ian all you can do is the best you can okay it's a town there's three 4,000 folks to live here and you're not going to be able to control every aspect of what happens here right I understand what you're doing and and everybody else is trying to do the same thing and the folks that are doing it the right way should be applauded and the folks they don't should be scorned and that's it so just in summary I love what you just said that's why we have a tree exemption for Exotics you just tell us and we tell people leave you alone that's why we have you know um the um exemptions on the BTR you don't have to pay for BTR If You're AGR tourism but we don't go audit your exemption and additionally and there's like 10 different exemptions we don't audit any of them and we decided based on all of our conversations with the state and with AGR tourism Association that we don't audit your Declaration of a Bonafide a property as being able to do Agra tourism and lots of people ask all the time well how does that have to do with AGR tourism and you know what I answer I don't know but they're Bonafide EG and what they're doing isn't causing an offsite impact so I'm not going to do anything about it and I think that's kind of the Nether world that we have to operate in and when we had this learning experience last week we saw that there could be a concert or there could be a sudden big event and any property could have it 10 acres 20 acres 5 acres and our setbacks and our stuff is all written for small events not large events so for us we do need to look at fire rescue rules and PBSO rules and come back and show you something yeah but I think if they comply with all the rules that are put in fourth of them and they're and it's staffed with the police and everything is pulled off execution wise nice then it is what it is the folks that don't want to live here because of it they're welcome to move and that's it no one's forcing anybody to live in this town let's get that straight there is nobody forcing anybody to live here anybody could move at any given moment they can leave tomorrow 10 five 20 years from now nobody's requiring you to live here and that's it all right with that note thank you everyone we appreciate it do we have to decide the next meeting date or come back to it I think well what's your yeah I think there's a big I think January 20th is a big event why don't you come back I'll Circle back to the committee with the date sorry I'll Circle back to the committee for a proposed date based on your availability want you do this for a long time hey Happy Thanksgiving Merry Christmas if I don't see you some and we'll look at what they do