e e e hi fell hello on the oh it's t why did she on the TV this way she doesn't have to drive out here tonight and then come back again tomorrow for code what's tomorrow magistrate don't scare you right yeah well this meaning wasn't really it's more about the engineers right correct but she's gonna be there to save us if we need her right Tanya I don't know saving I'm I'm confident Val I'm sorry I didn't get in here to see you at all this I couldn't get here okay are we ready we are you ready everybody Workshop we now come to order stand for the of Allegiance please to of the United States of America and to the repu for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all have a moment of silence all right and we could ask for a vote council member Shore is present via Zoom see can you hear us he said present yeah I can hear you okay all right council member danowski here council member manilia presid vice mayor Herzog here mayor Kane present Town manager Francine ramilia here Town attorney Tanya early here Public Works director Richard Gant present okay so this is in here actually and just for your edification council members Robert I don't know if you got one of these by email but we have a updated presentation packet so instead of using the bound one you're going to use this one to follow the presentation okay everybody um and I guess is there any opening public comment I think the way this was intended to go is I know it's intended that we'll have the presentation and then have public comment but I just didn't know if there was any general opening public comment no regarding non-agenda items anyone from the public no okay no all right mayor do you want to call for a motion to approve the agenda I'm I was just going to do that um I don't presume there's any additions deletions or modifications from anyone based on the fact that this is a workshop is that accurate okay then can I have a motion to approve I'll make a motion to approve the agenda as written second all in favor I I passes five to zero okay this is you your Laura go that's Lisa I mean Lisa I'm so sorry I called you Laura I was talking to Laur I'm sorry I'm really apologize Lisa apologize I I don't think you are okay oh now I'm on okay so for the record okay my name is Lisa Trappe I am a professional engineer for over three decades now um I am a partner at Ingenuity group um been a partner over 20 years I'm gonna I am here with uh my partner Adam sweny who's also a professional engineer and Tara Bamber who's a professional engineer also this is a room full of Professional Engineers and flood plane administrators Yep this this PowerPoint was done with a group of us not just the two that I just mentioned but Randy wpy from kavars thank you we he was part of it and so was Kevin who doesn't want to sit up front I don't know why but thank you and of course Richard so we all did this together um and I know it's long it's it is long but just bear with us we wanted to be thorough we wanted to give you all the information didn't want to leave anything out so um but at the end of this presentation um you guys as policy makers need to give us some guidance and so at the end of this education um please give us the guidance that we need to move forward in a positive way I I think if it's okay with you Lisa I think what we'll do is we'll do it since there's six sections just to not hold questions till the end from Council maybe we'll do section one and then I'll just ask if anybody has any questions to ask you and then section two so we can clarify each as we go that's fine sound fair okay that's fine if it's if it's from if it's from the council in a positive way absolutely um I just want to just say I'm just gonna apologize right now because there are some of you um one is um on a virtual um council person that I've known you guys some of you for over two decades and so I know you all I know you all because I was a commissioner and served for 15 years from 2003 to 2018 and so if I say your first name and I don't mean to be disrespectful I just have known you guys for a long time and respect everything that you do because I feel your pain um I totally understand the frustration sometimes and understand that we're going to be giving you some technical information but just know that at the end we just need we need some guidance from you and we gave you some suggestions at the end so um I also want to say this I became a commissioner in 2003 franchis Jean Wilma was 0405 I had to deal with homeowners like you do land owners it was horrible we were we were pointed out as the the worst state in the nation we were the ones that asked for all the money from the insurance companies the insurance companies left I had residents grabed me you know cry and told me um you've got to do something I lost my insurance I can't fix my house I've got tarp on my roof you've got to do something about this so 03 04 05 06 07 I became got involved in the league of cities and ultimately became president of the of the Palm Beach County League of cities which I'm very proud of but I have to tell you the flood plane ordinance came along and we thought it was the best thing ever um because there was a time when we had no insurance in this state the governor said well we're going to create our own insurance and then and then that didn't work out and so when it came time for this proposal this blood plan ordinance we were so happy about it and agreed that we should all move forward and and fast forward now you know I I left in 2018 and I come back and I'm looking at this again and it makes me kind of crazy because the flood plane ordinance is the same in Loach Gro as it is in my little town of Palm Beach Shores now I'm on the East Coast on Singo Island it doesn't affect me no way near as how it affects you guys and so um I just I just feel your frustration and it's it's very upsetting to see something that we all agreed to and we were all happy about that mayor Browning at the time we were so excited to tell our residents that you're you don't have to worry about getting a mortgage you don't have to worry that you're not going to get flood insurance we got it we figured it out you know and so um there are some things that we could do so just be patient at the end of this um we can talk about that so I I just wanted to give you that um that history of how excited we were about this flood plane ordinance that's like one size fits all which is which which it isn't so sure okay Lisa I'd like to just mention real quick to everybody watching that it was brought to the town's attention that many folks in this town were having a really hard time with the FD with they ended up in code enforcement and it it it and it it's a Perpetual Nightmare and we're an agricultural Community we're large acreage and as Lisa said it doesn't fit all municipalities so I'm glad y'all are here I want to we want to hear your input on what you have been through if it involves the FDA and um we're here to help and try to get this straightened out and make it a simpler easier less expensive process for all our residents thank you okay you if Richard but we'll go ahead and proceed with section one okay thanks all right go to slide four all right so a brief introduction um so blood plane management is a very complicated issue it has a lot of stakeholders from uh insurance agents realators the building officials planners legal departments and of course the public but the uh the best one is FEMA the F uh the Federal Emergency Management agency and their nfip National flood insurance representative who is the that is the group that that regulates flood insurance um they also regulate our flood plan ordinance and what can be in it and what can be taken out of it so anything that we want to do we have to run it past them first in order so that way they understand and will agree to to the things that we want to change the next slide please Richard might interrupt you for one moment sure did you want to um introduce the representative from FEMA that's on the is she on the call she is on the call oh please yes I just wanted to make sure that let everyone know she's here right so we have Rebecca Quinn she actually is a consultant for the Florida Department of Emergency Management and she is the one who represents FEMA in or represents fdam who represents FEMA in Florida we see her I don't know if she's got her video on person about this I don't know if she has her video on or not good job Francine that was short notice that's that's me not good job oh oh good job good job St ask Richard he does it I don't have my video on yeah U as Richard indicated I um I represent the Florida Division of Emergency Management I have worked with them for 14 years on ordinances throughout the whole state and I I'm also a FEMA consultant but I'm not here representing FEMA rich as Richard indicates Dem does a lot of work with communities uh in flood plane management my specialty is ordinance and in that capacity we do represent FEMA but I'm here speaking for de m not speaking for FEMA Department Department of Emergency Management yes and I think as someone said DCA DCA was um dissolved quite a few years ago and the Emergency Management agency became an office part of the office of the governor thank you can she see our presentation yes she has it also okay go ahead thank you for being with us tonight all right go to slide six all right so um this slide basically talks about the daily lives of our residents and how everything that we touch is in uh Engineers are typically involved and everything is pretty much regulated and even though many of us don't use some of the items on here all these items are regulated in one way or the other by the government for the greater good of the entire public not single individuals um so the regulation creates the consistency in Services implements the gy guidelines and adopts standards to predict unstable unsafe and unhealthy uh practices next slide so a little bit of background um flood control actually goes back before FEMA was even uh started it actually goes back to the 1850s when the Mississippi River used to flood they had uh issues in a lot of our Rivers you Mississippi the Ohio and other major rivers over time the federal government realized that there was a serious problem and in 1979 FEMA was established the original flood insurance map did obviously didn't include locki Groves within a designated flood Hazard and then in in 2015 an effort was made to uh update all the maps and in 2017 is when we have our latest firm maps in ' 04 in response to the flooding issues and other demands the c-51 canal is a primary outfall uh for several of the a South FL Management District began to evaluate and update their Basin rules to a more modern mapping and modeling calculation so the c-51 Basin rule study was published in 2015 with the Army Corps of Engineers and the implemented structural controls c-51 and this study was used as a software model to determine the maximum stage of the Town resulting in a 100-year 3-day storm and the results of these studies were accepted by FEMA in revising their maps and their further flood elevations next slide so this is an article from the town chir from December 8th 2017 when the lock AI grov Town Council approved the final reading of the flood plane ordinance that enables the town and residents to participate in the National flood insurance program as highlighted here um 410 municipalities except for 10 including locki grow have been approved for the flood plane ordinance at this point I don't have the numbers in front of me but I believe it's 418 and there's 11 of the that do not participate and the areas that do not participate don't have flood hazards at all or minimal flood hazards not at all but they have minimal flood hazards and most of those areas are in the Panhandle um as you can see in the highlighted section here it says Town manager Bill Underwood said that without an ordinance the town can would not be eligible for water mitigation grants to handle canal and drainage issues go to the next slide please the mayor at that time this is a continuation of that previous article the mayor stressed that the ordinance would benefit the residents explaining that one resident told him that without the town joining the program his flood insurance would be unaffordable um further goes on it says if you get if you get $100,000 worth of damage and insurance doesn't kick in until 200,000 you don't get any money and the next year there's another flood event you have have another $100,000 and you don't get any money it's cumulative which is allowable and then it kicks in for you so the ordinance bet that time passed 40 with one person who was not present at the time next slide please so we're going to go briefly over to town policies um we're going to next slide and then also we're going to go over to State roles so our permit review objective we've got permit review objectives our townsite development reviews check for the Assurance at the state and other criteria are addressed Town reviews Flood plane Cals per the national flood insurance program to check that there are no flood plane impacts per state requirements and that the actual flood plane impacts must be submitted to NFI for their review the town cannot issue permits for work that may be conducted in a fashion that would endanger someone else's property safety or health and cannot issue permits for work that will burden the overall drainage system increase the cost of Maintenance which means more cost to the residents other residents or decrease the usable lifespan or contradict the conditions of the permits issued to the town for withdrawal or discharge to the c-51 canal so next we're going to go over State uh State rules which Randy Berney will cover can I ask a question have you um reached out the South FL of water management and see if you could get any of their folks from permitting here we have been working with South Florida yeah they were unavailable well we actually are working with someone from South Florida Water Management go ahead M couldn't get him to come here tonight right exactly good but you're you're in communication with them hey and and actually Dustin wood was the gentleman who held that position and he actually has taken a different position with South Florida Water Management District so they're in limbo with regulation right now as far as the regulation manager so we are trying to get Jess Markle who is um even higher up but much harder to um you know get a commitment from okay we can go to the next slide please thank you all right so I'm going to chat a little bit about State rules these are rules that have been in place um for for quite some time and we're even going to dive into the c-51 rule with South Florida Water Management District you probably heard me talk about that uh quite a bit but uh just starting off we have our our building code so the building official is the one who's responsible for the floridity building code um there is many regulations for a Florida building code um some of which are actually going to get into flood plane and get into drainage related concerns so part of the building official's job is to actually make sure whatever infrastructure is installed is actually compliant with the flood plane one thing to note is that non-residential farm buildings are exempt from building code however they're not exempt from flood plane review okay so the State of Florida um next slide please the State of Florida has a uniform set of rules and it is the Statewide environmental resource permitting swerp is what they consider it for short and in the environmental resource permitting they're looking at some big picture items water quality treatment storage flood plane uh variances or excuse me flood plane encroachment okay on the next slide we're going to divide this up into all Statewide erps and then there are special rules specifically for the c-51 flood plane which uh the town of oahe groves is a part of that so there are excuse me one second so the state rules reg generate from the state and the c-51 generate from South Florida Water Management correct um the c-51 is part of the state rules so uh South Florida Water Management District State rules they are synonymous for this conversation okay so there's just a additional criteria and uh getting into some of that additional criteria so we're in the c-51 flood Basin or the c-51 Basin this was actually uh identified many years ago by South Florida Water Management District as an area of concern and I think it was uh 1987 they adopted the first flood plane ordinance within the c-51 and they've looked at things a little bit different ly for instance the no flood plane encroachment they actually developed a basis of review um and standards for engineers to to uh analyze flood plane to make sure that they are not encroaching on on the overall flood plane which is the whole purpose of this is to protect your neighbors so whatever you do on your property your neighbor doesn't have to compensate for that in the form of say additional storage or what everyone's concerned with which is the flood plane elevation rising and then damaging other structures you're going to see a constant theme through the entire presentation and that is 100-year 3-day storm event what does that really mean if we can go to the next slide we'll try to break that down this is data that has been recorded by the state of Florida they've analyzed several different rainfall events and they have come up with the intensity the duration the frequency of these various events and they put it in terms of one in 100 years this could happen one in 10 years this could happen it's really if you go to the next slide it's just a matter of probability so a one in 25e storm event is there's a 4% chance that that rainfall event of X inches of rainfall that's been recorded could occur in that given year and the uh the flood plane is based on the 1% chance or one in 100 year storm event which is usually a higher rainfall I believe we were showing it at about 13 uh 13 inches of rainfall 13 to 15 within the town okay all right next slide please okay so this graphic is really to represent what flood plane compensating storage is if you look on the upper left you're going to see a scenario where there's two homes on either side and on the lower left you see that uh okay property owner number two on the right is going to fill in a large part of their property redevelop and put their their house on there well what essentially happens is the flood plane elevation Rises and it'll eventually impact your neighbors so um they are required to compensate and excavate and provide that same volume of storage below the flood plane within the flood plane so providing it to where the flood plane can't access to that is not benefiting the neighbors so the next slide will hopefully represent a little bit of that so for instance if property owner on the uh east side of this this slide fills in the lake and that property well what happens the flood plane elevation Rises that water has to get stored somewhere else and it could impact it could impact their their neighbor so anywhere where you see blue is the is the flood plane and a lot of the town is interconnected within the flood plane on the next slide you'll see a much larger area of the town all in one continuous flood plane so that's everywhere in the town or everywhere in this flood plane is lower than elevation 176 navd so anywhere where it can be connected from property to property is is what you see here and and why it's something that we are concerned Andie this is from collecting Canal to like okobi right collecting this this picture does not go all the way up to OK okobe Boulevard but but more North you go in L grow the drier it gets correct correct um there's a link here that's on this presentation that you can go to anybody in the town can go to my geonav it is a County website it is a GIS based website and they have a layer you can click and you can review the flood plane uh that is something that uh I'm sure we could do if you want to look at a Q&A but in as much as yes the further north you go in the town the higher the elevations uh there are however there are still large areas of the Town within the flood plane north of okachobee Boulevard it is absolutely not as significant as this though so that is a very good point phis thank you okay all right on the on the next slide it's just goes over how South Florida Water Management District and the state has set up for us to really look at uh flood plane encroachment so step one is you use the existing topology to to calculate with the existing storages and you take those um intensity duration rainfall events 15 inches of rainfall over your site and you compare the runoff coming from your site with the storage that's available to your site and then and you you compare those two numbers you determine if you're importing or you're exporting if you're exporting that means you have extra runoff leaving your site that your neighbors have to store for if you're an importer site you're storing for your neighbor's property it's an existing condition that you have and that's the first thing that you look at and then the second phase is you take your proposed development and what is the net encroachment after that so are you still importing if you were importing before are you exporting with the same amount so that's essentially what we're trying to um point out on this slide there's also again there is design examples that is made available to everyone through South Florida water manage District to break that down step by step but again on the next slide uh the the whole purpose of this ordinance is is again not to flood your neighbor making sure that everybody is responsible for the the runoff that they are producing from their own site okay so these uh these are the the basic principles of the of this uh Statewide Rule and of course this is something that is looked at not just by the state we're looking at it locally and you're also looking at it on the federal level through the flood plane okay on the next slide slide we are going over a little bit of the vulnerability assessment so this is another Statewide rule that they've adopted and actually this is where we have the grant Associated for the town this grant has allowed us to actually inventory the entire system of the town so we're just about ready to release the model to look at the exposure analysis the existing conditions and and different assets within the town to show where um specific critical assets are potentially vulnerable um a large part of this actual assessment is for climate change they're looking at what happens when the c-51 canal Rises well we're staged up quite a bit above that Canal so we'll have less impacts on that but it's also looking at Future rainfall events when we have back-to-back storm events with more rainfall than we're experiencing today so that's another part of it and we'll be we'll be able to identify the critical assets within the town and give you an idea of the the risks Associated to each of those assets all right these next sets of slides are all going to be extremely boring they are directly from the Florida Administrative Code or the Florida Statutes and and this is where South Florida Water Management District adopts the rules actually it's the swp which is the Statewide set of rules that everyone uses throughout the state but it all references back to Florida statute so all we did here is break out and show you where specific items are coming from okay so one of the main things that the state looks at they want to make sure that you comply with the Statewide regulations and making sure that uh you're you're following the best management practices and regulations that are out there again water quality storm water attenuation and flood plane encroachment it should be noted too and I I forgot to mention on that slide the flood plane encroachment is looked at on every project with South Florida for the longest time the uh the county before FEMA updated their maps in 2017 large po portions of the county were not considered within the flood plane South Florida didn't focus on that it's always been in their regulation and today to get a per for any project if your Project's located within the flood plane they require you to do the flood plane compensating storage it is not just limited to the c-51 Basin okay all right next slide please all right so wait wait wait go back to that does that mean us or in entirety for the town it's always been the entirety of the town for flood BL yes well since 1987 so I'm not sure whether this is the appropriate place to ask this question Randy but I'm going to ask it in the past couple of years and previously we've had a number of Roads put down without engineering and that those roads being put down by the town have caused flooding in people's property because of course you're replacing a porous surface with a non-porous surface and it's caused a lot of flooding the question has come up to past councils about why the town was allowed to do that without engineering and the response was that the town was exempt from these regulations is that an accurate statement that is an accurate statement there are sever we want to hold ourselves as a town to a different standard than we're holding our residents to it depends on what the development that that uh is being proposed if by state law we're all responsible for making sure we're not flooding our neighbors how is the town putting down a road and flooding the residents violation of state law there's regulations that they exempt specific items for on a roadway that is it is a semi impervious surface but it's also you see how it doesn't make sense to me right that that we're we're we're doing something that we're holding the residents to a different standard you can see how that doesn't make sense to me I I I do understand that but Road Rock in as much as it does absor I'm talking about asphalt a non-engineered asphalt road that we're put down I I I understand what you're saying but we're putting asphalt on top of Road Rock we're putting we're taking an impervious surface and we're putting it on a mostly impervious surface there is a exemption for that within the uh the state regulation specifically part of those exemptions you have to adhere to um several aspects and in fact we were going to go over those right now of what those exemptions are and what an engineer has to do to demonstrate that they qualify for those exemptions well I'm just going to State for the record in my whole big picture I want to hold the town to the same standard we're holding our residents to whatever that standard might be at the end so just stating that for the record everybody Engineers that are sitting here okay thank thank you I agree okay all right so the state has General permits that allow you to qualify for specific activities um and those General permits are uh there several items that are listed in the Florida Statutes we're only putting a couple here today but these statutes can be referenced and you can determine what every one of those are they have them for bridges for roadways for single family um homes that are being constructed so on and so forth so if we can go to the next slide please okay all right there is a standard rule that they require um and they have a general rule which is called uh it's been nicknamed the 102 self certification and a 10 to self-certification is any project that is less than 10 acres less than two acres of impervious area the state does not require you to apply for a formal permit they require a professional engineer to self-certify the project to the state to verify that it meets specific criteria the 10 acres less than 10 acres less than 2 Acres of impervious pipe sizes less than 24 in um and essentially they're requiring you to make sure that you meet all of the state standards they're just not requiring the formal process with South Florida Water Management District to obtain the permit you actually certify that it meets All State criteria to FD okay that would be with the town no through the site plan process so the town does ask for the self-certification to make sure that okay you've done this project you should have submitted a self-certification to the state so we do request to see um a copy of that however no that goes directly through FD through the Florida Department Environmental Protections website and they'll have an email that gets back to them promptly that they can forward saying hey we went ahead and filed this with the state as we were supposed to okay all right um there you're going to see a lot of the exemptions um above or below that are going to reference the exemption that you see here and it it essentially states that you cannot adversely impound or obstruct existing water flow cause in um adverse impacts to existing surface water storage and conveyance capabilities or otherwise cause adverse water quality or flooding impacts to receiving water and adjacent lands so again going back to making sure you don't blood your neighbor so this is is up here because you'll see that again when we get to the next to the next slide this is the exemption activity for your single family residences all right and again every exemption is going to reference hey we want to make sure you're not flooding your neighbor okay next slide please okay all right so here is again going over single family homes so whether it's a duplex whether it's a small unit um anything that is essentially the the state is not wanting to prevent you from having to put a home on your property as long as it meets certain criteria but again it does reference the the the code listed above all right on the next slide it's for non-residential farm farm buildings so this is where the Florida statute where it states that non-residential farm buildings are exempt from the the building code however they are not exempt from blood plane management policies okay but are there any there's no exemptions but do they have to adhere to the same codes as if you're building a house if you're building a PO so there is different criteria depending on what is going to be constructed for instance if is any any part of the structure is habitable it it's not considered a an agricultural non-residential Farm building so if there's Plumbing that is going to be installed if there is living quarters restrooms Etc it has a different standard and I believe Richard is going to talk about that in more detail okay all right we can go on to the next slide please okay um in the farm structures too as far as the uh State statutes they want to also make sure that any local um regulations are adere too as well so that is one thing and then the the local your local regulations will be reviewed I Believe by Lisa later today but it's just to point out where in the statute it states that we're required to look at the various um aspects of of anything that could encroach on the flood plane okay on the next statute so this is the part of the statute where it it tells you that it has to be uh um completed by a Florida profession engineer all right the next um slide is for the exemption for Bridges driveways and roadways um this is one of the exemptions that has been used by town in the past and again mayor K I heard you loud and clear so we'll make sure those are looked into and and uh not Incorporated in the future well it doesn't make sense to me to to cause have citizens have to follow a standard that we're not following as a town and I do know that the surfacing of those roads did cause a lot of flooding on people's property we we need to make sure we're taking that into consideration I know we're doing a better job currently of Reinventing swes or re or reopening soils and drainage that wasn't done more recently in Road putting down but is being done now at this time so perhaps that's the solution but um I'm sure that that qualifies as fullscale engineering but at least it's some thought before it's been done so no it is I think that's something that Richard's been focusing on is before any additional roadway construction he's looking into the drainage and making sure that there is a system in place I think it's really important well and you have to keep your phrase do as I do do I say keep it in the right [Music] order we can just go to the next slide if you don't mind okay this is more um on your Bridges and roadways Etc so you're just making sure that they're different sizes Etc or under a certain width they don't want you to have to or to be able to fill in an entire reach of a canal as part of your your exemption so okay um there's a the next one is something that Palm Beach County uses quite a bit for minor roadway construction if you're adding turning Lanes if you're if you're just uh Paving shoulders adding sidewalk Etc they have that and again on every one of these we can even go to the next one the common theme is that they all have to make sure you don't flood your neighbor all right on the next slide so here's for stabilizing Paving or repaving existing roads repair and replacement of any Bridges so this is if the uh roads were in existence based on a certain time frame and uh when you get to the next page you'll see again where it's should make sure you're not uh imp ing your neighbors Randy for us a bridge is is the same thing as a culvert Bridges and Culvert Crossings are in are looked at under the same exemption but they're not the same thing they are not the same thing no there is different criteria for for both a bridge and a culvert crossing under the exemptions and whether you are north or south of okobi no no these are State exemptions as far as the town standards for a bridge and a culvert Crossing there is a set of standards that was developed and Incorporated by the water Control District um that's been uh that's been I guess uh reviewed and used in the past for any coverts or or brick like the diameter of the C yes so that's the one where south of okachobee is a 96 inch diameter Culver north of okachobee is a 72 inch diameter culbert yeah thank you yeah so and those will likely get brought up again afterwards getting into the town standards okay all right so essentially yeah again I said this is the most boring part of the presentation it's just listing every one of those exemptions so if we can go to the couple more slides one more over those they were real exemptions making us exempt I don't believe well also being exempt from a a a submittal to South Florida Water Management District does not necessarily make sure that or or guaranteed that you're exempt from submitting something to Fimo submitting something to the town okay all right so we briefly reviewed um the environmental resource permitting c-51 blood plane and some of the concerns associated with that on the next slide you're going to see again this is just a overview of the Florida Statutes where a lot of this information is is available as well as the Florida administrative code and then on this next graphic this graphic you see on the left is actually the c-51 uh Basin you can see it takes a large portion of Palm Beach County Central Palm Beach County uh is a part of this um but uh this area since 1987 has always been uh looked at by the state for flood plane compensating storage and and now any any property again within the within a flood zone is looked at for the same way so what is yellow the yellow those are just different different basins yes so you have Royal Palm Beach to your to your right which is in a different color Wellington to the South identifying different municipalities yes that is correct right that's the end of section two do you have any questions okay that's the end of section two have we've been kind of asking as we go does anybody have anything Robert nothing to say nope okay question do you have any questions on section two Randy you asked him as we went we asked him as we went you have something no phy I'm just gonna ask um hopefully somewhere in this presentation I think what I would like to see is where the state comes in where South for what the process is with an individual as far as the state the the the south Florida Water Management the town you know where their engineer is um so I I'm hoping we're going to see some sort of chart that explains the hierarchies and how this all works and works together does that make sense we're gonna talk about the process of of getting a state development permit perfect okay it looks like Robert came up with a little hand rais thing does that thing you want to talk Robert yes oh my God that's so cool okay good job go Robert so um I lower my hand all right yeah no I keep hearing um don't want to flood your neighbors Randy and I understand compensating storage but I I think one of our biggest problems as we've been inflaming this and building burms is the natural cross flow of water has been stopped by the BM so my proper is good I don't flood my neighbor but now my neighbor floods themselves I guess because I built a BM to stop their water from flowing across it into my property so I guess my biggest question is you know we are doing our flood plane evaluation of our five acres we aren't going outside our boundaries and saying okay if I burm up my five ACR am I going to interrupt a natural flow of water that came from my neighbor five acres or the back five so I I guess it's not necessarily our responsibility to do that but I've seen it happen a lot and I just don't know you know how we can meet these criteria I'm trying to understand as you say it don't affect your neighbor don't affect your neighbor and you turn around you put a verm up and you just affected your neighbor but you did what your supposed to do so I guess that's my biggest concern moving in a direction and also the back and forth flow of water in and out of the canal you know as these canals fill up they can go on people's property and that's additional compensating storage for the town and vice versa as we put in all these control structures we prevent that from happening so we are creating our own little systems and I guess big picture if everybody did that in the town is it a good thing or I'm just kind of that's my conflict is okay I'm putting up my BM so I don't flood my neighbor but guess what my neighbor's water used to run into my ditch which is the one that goes to the canal and now my neighbor floods so that that that's my biggest concern thank you did you want to say something Randy I will do my best to try to answer your question so the each property is evaluated individually from each other so you did bring that up and if I put a burm around my property am I blocking the drainage or the flow of water from my neighbor's property onto your property and and that's part of determining whether you are an importer site or an exp Porter site so if you're an importer site and you are actually storing some of your neighbor's property that is cons that's considered in the analysis and that same amount of storage is supposed to be made available to your neighbors during that so that's one of the the main uh purposes of step one of the analysis is determine if you are storing that water right now or if you are not okay so my question is how is that determined without going on the adjacent properties and determining their storage capabilities the surveyors who are analyzing your property are supposed to pick up elevations adjacent to to your property they typically go beyond anywhere between 10 to 100 feet to determine what the uh the existing flow patterns are on the adjacent properties as far as the flood planes concerned when you um when FEMA established the flood plane elevation they actually utilized the c-51 re-evaluation that occurred in 2015 so South Florida Water Management District did a comprehensive study within the Basin and they determine what that 100-year flood elevation is or that 176 nav elevation um that is the the key elevation if you will anything lower than that elevation is providing storage to the flood plane for that 100e or that 1% chance of flooding to occur so it's all based on that flood plane elevation so if your property happens to be mostly above that elevation chances are you're not storing runoff generated from your neighbor's property okay no actually Mar one last oh one last okay go ahead Robert one last comment sorry so this 10 acre limitation before sell for water management gets involved that's just the project only when you expand you say yes I'm an importer from both sides and I've got 10 acres I've got 10 acres on each side of me there's 30 Acres that I'm holding the water cuz there all above 176 my entire 10 acres is below 176 so I'm a receiver I'm an importer for 30 Acres of water correct how do you handle something like that you you analyze your site and how much storage you provide to the flood plane below elevation 176 and then you also have to take in account the runoff from your site and whatever the differences will determine if you're or how much you are storing of runoff for the flood plane at which point let's assume that you do a calculation and you have two acre feet of storage that you're providing then that two acre feet of storage has to be made available to the Basin below elevation 176 or the flood plane elevation okay Marg right um the construction area uh for a project um it sounds like uh they're including um uh the buildings and not the size of the property so how is that fair to um a person coming forward with a project for a 10 acre piece of um land they want to develop it's my understanding the way that South Florida reviews it if you have 10 acres or more of contiguous property that uh you would be required to get an environmental resource permit with the state so it's it's yeah at least my understanding of the rule it's it's based on what property you own that could be draining into whatever system you're creating and there there's no um exceptions if it's going to be an agricultural area no not for FL plan for building but not for correct okay has the um the town adopted the nfip um unit um five manual cover that in the next section okay um if you're not building in the flood plane Zone um as listed on the map in blue then why is the FDA required so a site development permit is required with the town for any site development and part of what we'll be going over in a bit is um the very various parts of the town codee that requires um site development reviews for specific activities filling and excavation being part of those activities okay and and what are the um differences between building in a highend dry and an AE area okay it's uh part of the analysis you're looking at isn't just your physical property below a certain flood elevation you're also looking at your soil storage and that's where the runoff comes in when you're doing your runoff calculation if you're if you're completely above the flood zone the only thing you're essentially losing is your soil storage at that at that moment so the the impact would be significantly less therefore the amount of storage you would have to generate or offset uh would be would be less so it is a lot less of an impact if your property is above that flood plane elevation okay and my last question is um how does flat land produce a um a flow fast enough to cause um a barn to clean out I mean your water your water level is is above the the flapper so how is it going to move well water takes the path of the least resistance and it just slowly Works its way to wherever the lowest lying area is so when you have that much water and it's on a larger storm event when you have continuous rainfall and and more and more inches of rainfall falling on the surface it is going to move and it's going to find it's going to reach equilibrium it's going to find the low spots within within the flood plane it sounds like this rule is for a mountainous area more than a flat flat land area um it it's a rule that was established for the c-51 flood flood plane so it was specifically established for uh yeah for Palm Beach County which is primarily a flatter area okay drop a leaf in the canal water and see how fast it moves right Laur Laura this one's kind of a visual so three lots next to each other each with similar elevations um concavity similar structures and it rains is there a definition of flooding one neighbor is howling my property's flooded the other two are like me it's water it's going to perk you know is there a a volume of defin of flooding is it okay give it 30 hours and then you can jump up and down and yell flooding I mean I I don't mean to mock the situation but I think people's tolerances for how much water their property holds is different so is is there a definition that's question one no I don't believe there is a definition it's a a lot of that is as you said it's a it's the opinion of one person versus another there's a lot of flooding that um we're involved with that is is essentially nuisance flooding for instance roadside whales or if there is water in someone's driveway these are not complaints that we're hearing out of the town so please let me clarify that but um as Engineers we hear a lot of complaints in other municipalities of what most people would consider a nuisance flooding um where it really matters is when water enters structures and is going to produce damage to your structure because a little bit of water can produce a significant amount of damage to your to to various structures so um and it depends on the amount of rainfall so in the situation you brought up um in fact I think there is a there actually is going to be an example that'll go over that later in this presentation to try to explain what could happen and how um as development occurs changes could occur you know is that that Resident used to U the same amount of rainfall a similar amount of rainfall and a similar amount of flooding that occurs you know there's a there's a lot of properties in the town that uh do experience wetter conditions than others they're they're they're slightly lower than than others or they don't have a pond to store that water so it it does find the half the least resistance and will saturate yeah the various ground okay have yes um so there is no black and white definition of flooding two inches one inches 18 hours 24 hours 10 hours um there is not there is definitions Associated for instance if you were doing a benefit cost analysis for a Fimo funded project or a fdm uh funded project they want to know how many inches of rainfall and how long that rainfall occurs for instance if you're in a roadway and you are flooding the roadway for a foot or a duration of 24 hours or so every property owner uh well in the town it's a little different most property owners have larger vehicles but some some Property Owners may not be able to access their their property Emergency Management vehicles cannot access the property so there is there is um monetary value that is that is a assigned to a certain amount duration and uh depth of flooding for various scenarios okay thank you this and if this next question is covered somewhere just say hang on so let's say somebody takes out 100 square feet of invasive nuisance vegetation okay I'll be slid out know how to work the phone anyway um so they take this stuff out you've taken out Leaf canopy branches whatever which is kind of umbrella is so you've created it used to be shed so now you've taken these things out and you've filled up the hole and you've put down some sod whatever have you created more compensating space on your property or have you made it worse if you didn't change the elevation of the land there's there's no change it's uh yeah perious Surface versus a pervious surface okay thank you okay and just to clarify your question on the definition of flood FEMA defines a flood as a general temporary condition of partial or complete inundation of two or more Acres of normally dry land or two or more properties at least one of which is your property from overflow Inland title Waters unusual a rapid accumulation or runoff of surface waters from any Source mud flow or collap or substance of land along the shore of a lake or similar body of water as a result of erosion or undermining caused by waves currents or water exceeding anticipated cyclical levels as a result of the flood defined above two inches is your answer well all right then 49 words later good job thank you two inches is your answer I okay we're on to section three I believe all right so section three we're going to go over the nfip rules um and what the national flood insurance program is so on this slide here from the female website to participate in the National flood insurance program you have to complete an application adopt a resolution for your intent to participate and adopt to submit a flood plane management ordinance all three of those were done by the town of locket Groves in 2017 and accepted by FEMA I believe in May of 2018 so the FL the federal government then makes the flood insurance available throughout the community for not only for you know for the the damages caused in the town-owned infrastructure but also for properties through the flood insurance program on the next slide female provides a boiler plate document called the flood plane management ordinance so many of the municipalities and government entities including the town adopted this boiler plate as a starting point in order to get entry into the program and any situation that prevents that the person from complying with the flood plan criteria can be submitted can submitted be submitted to excuse me can I stop you right there tell me what what type give me an example of a situation that would prevent a person from complying with the that that that would be acceptable for a variance give me an accept an example I don't have those in front of me but I can I can send them to you no but there are specific it's actually in you have article 175 it's it's in article 175 it's in article 175 it's very specific um what can qualify for a variance but we need that information she they're they're finding it hang on give up a second I mean that that would be really important information for us to have and for the public to have mayor in the meantime Rebecca has her hand up who Rebecca oh oh Rebecca Rebecca please I love this handup thing please Rebecca go ahead thank you uh what Richard referred to in your flood plane ordinance are criteria and conditions for considering variances there is no list of what does and doesn't qualify because circumstances vary and straints land uh FEMA's guidance document pretty much says given the requirements for considering variances they should be very few and far between right but how how could we Rebecca as Council make an intelligent decision about whether to Grant a variance when we don't even have like nobody can even provide us up with an example of what might be a reasonable variance I'm just looking for a hypothetical situation that might be a reasonable time at which Council would be okay with providing a variance I I mean I can't imagine one so I'm I'm asking for you to imagine one the variance criteria are very detailed all the uh elements that need to be weighed um and they include uh you know imposition of risk on other people as y all have talked about a number of times uh the potential for increased public um expenditures um there is a hardship Criterion which is not a hard and fast how do you measure that um so the um uh I I've been doing flood plan management for 40 years and I'm not sure I've ever seen a properly issued variants I will say though the nfip and communities have had had those variance criteria for decades um the nfip does when FEMA or the state visits communities which they try to do about every five years they do ask about any variances and they ask for documentation um but the opportunity is there even though they're very rare thank you the gentleman who didn't want to speak wanted to speak you have a hypothetical variant situation for me oh I'm lost my drain of thought oh you had your hand raised I was so hopeful I would get you to speak okay first thought when I did that was that if someone has a property that you have to go I'm sorry I need you to I know you don't want to be publicly noted but I need you to go to the microphone thank you my first thought when I read that was that if someone my name's Kevin Van Arman I'm from KES ofar and associate if someone has a property that is just too small to fit any kind of storage that might be a case where they come in they say hey I've got a quarter acre here and I need to build a house and there's just nowhere to put this extra water can you consider my case okay thank you thank you I appreciate that thank you so in section 175 230 I don't think you want me to read all this section 175 235 outlines and considerations of issuance for variances and continues on the next page some I'll just give you some of the highlights um says in reviewing requests Town Council shall consider technical evaluations relevant factors and applicable Provisions to the Florida building code and following the danger materials and debris May sweep into other lands resulting in further injury or damage the danger of life or property due to flooding or erosion damage susceptibility of the developed property including contents to flood damage and it goes on to like they said there's 17 points that are part of this variance thank you I appreciate you allowing me to interrupt you go ahead excuse me I'd like to comment on the example that was a good example but uh the nfip does not require that compens compensating storage that is a a state or water management or Community it's not a federal an nfip requirement thank you can you regain your train of thought Richard probably not valer can you put the you're on 47 hope that helps you all right um so I said uh so FEMA offers uh discounts rate reductions and efforts for policies that exceed the minimum criteria and these discounts are through the community rating system um the community rating system Palm Beach county is a part of the community rating system and that you know there's different levels and that is I think is briefly discussed in here but there's different levels and obviously uh in order for the town to participate that to get discounts to your residents on their flood insurance we would have to participate in that rating system which would actually add additional regulations beyond what we already have so while this is while some feel this is daunting at this point if we want to save our residents more money we would actually have to add more regulations in order to save our residents money over time on their insurance um the next slide has the FEMA flood map for the entire town and as you as Phyllis had mentioned that the lower half of the town obviously is all blue and then as you work your way north um there are less and less flood areas but I will note that the majority of properties in the town have some type of flood plane in them uh flood zone AE flood zone in them the following page is the actual these are the hard copy FEMA flood maps the firms and that's what this is right here and anybody wants to come look at them I keep them at my office and I have them here for you now for inspection these are were provided to me by FEMA or provided to Larry actually by FEMA in 2017 or 2018 when these were developed and these are the uh firm panels This is what they used to use before they had the online one which is on the page before on the next page these are the actual firm panel numbers for the town um these numbers probably don't make much sense but the the first set of numbers is the actual number the second is the panel and then the there's a suffix at the end of it and that has its own definition which doesn't matter at this point excuse me one second Laura you did you have when were these Maps adopted 2017 October 5th 2017 17 is the effective date so those are the maps that we're working from for anything that we do correct thank you excuse me March yeah um some of these Maps don't look like they they are accurate I mean um the property west of a-road they have that underwater and that is a um Farm they produce vegetables there all year I mean they may flood their area they flood that property property is under a lot of water I've looked over the BMS they that water that property's underwater okay so man-made floods are an issue also correct yeah but that property floods on its own without any they drain more than they pump okay I they have the ability to irrigate but their property retains a lot of water right um they're constantly off uh draining water off that property all right um and I wanted to point out that I got my um my right Insurance flood um thing and it mentions that there is a mitigation discount of $6 but there's a community discount of nothing correct because the town does does not not yeah the town does not participate in the community rating system at this time if the if the town wanted to there are certain requirements that we could fulfill and and Rebecca would actually help us get like to lead with that as well to get the town and we could get come back with you come back to you with um options to get us into the community rating system but I don't have the chart in front of me but I believe the discounts could be significant depending on your rating and Monroe County X AE yeah Monroe County actually is a level three level four I think they're like the first like they're they're like one of the highest levels in the state okay or opt out right you can opt in or opt out currently we're not OP we have not opted in but again if we opt into the community rating system uh the Count's on the community rating system so anybody who's in unincorporated Palm Beach County actually saves money on their flood insurance because the county has has taken the steps to um participate in that system all right well there's Reserve fees there's federal policy service fees and there's uh HFI AA SE charges so you get hit with extra things in all different directions so I mean I renewed it quickly because they said there might be a rate increase so okay Phyllis um so Laura asked when these Maps were done and you said 2017 but I believe Wellington redid their flood plane map and I'm a really confused as to how they are not wetter than us because they are so Wellington is part of the 2019 for maps um right okay so Wellington has areas that are in the 2019 pom County um preliminary maps that are going to be approved by the end of the year so I don't know if that's a part of what you're talking about well what are they all X now and where're like that's what I'm saying are they have they been lifted out so also which I think Lisa is going to talk about is an application that you can do to evaluate your land with a survey that shows that you're not in the flood zone anymore I've done it but you know what your mortgage doesn't necessarily say oh great we're not charging you flood insurance they still can charge flood insurance it's well those are the two things that I can think of to but my question is confused as to you know how do we get a better how did did Wellington buy their way out of the flood map I guess that's my question I know they spent millions of dollars over the years improving their infrastructure because when I was over there they replaced God the five years I was over there they replaced probably 15 different infrastructure yeah they spent millions of dollars replacing their infrastructure and improving their infrastructure they rerouted Basin their infrastructure yeah they have they have um ow areas right they have Lake Wellington and other areas for empowerment areas they have the uh Wellington preserve which is also an empowerment area so and just like Indian Trails Indian Trails doesn't have no half most of the people in Indian Trails don't have ponds in their yards because Indian Trails has hundreds of Acres of impoundment they have two yeah they have two major impoundments that are one's what 300 acres the others like it's 650 Acres of property that they impound all their water so their system is designed to where that all the storm water flows into those impoundments during a high rain event we we don't have that that's part of the resiliency study that we're doing right now is to identify that get grants to and we're going to talk about that later of possible solution I think we were built originally to be like that because we were grows we were food we were originally built for the water to go in the ditches and the canals and for the land to be dry I mean and you know I've got to tell you I I am crazy about this right now because we had a previous uh Public Works director that did not see anything townwide he only did properties on a Case by casee basis and took no consideration into what was going to happen to the neighbors and here we are today so just to clarify in 1902 when um the property was originally acquired from Southern state land in Timber the entire town was waterways it wasn't until 1924 that the first car entered this town so there was a good 23 years that everything went by water thank you thank you and Robert had us hand up Robert hand up yeah I just want to note that I said on the uh Water Resource task force committee for the county in August 15th we have a meeting and Palm Beach County staff will be presenting the thema blood insurance rate maps and describing the effects of the risk rating to and plans for updating the map around Lake okobi and instructions on how to view them so I don't know if that will include the area as far e East as us in Wellington or not but that is a August 15th meeting open to the public August 15th Robert yes thank you will it be and where will it be Robert I'm gonna email Francine the information so she can forward it to everybody thank you can you put it on the website also since it's open to the public thank you Rebecca um yes yes thank you I unfortunately I had and go about an hour and I am on my battery I may be running out of battery here in about 15 minutes but I will tell you Richard and I spoke and I I feel that Richard has a very good grasp on the flood plane the nfip based part of the rules um but uh if if there are any specific questions I can help with maybe out of order or I will be glad to uh work with Richard to provide any responses to questions that may come up when I unfortunately will have to drop thank you so much for giving us a heads up thank you okay Richard go ahead let me let me just let me just add to this hold on she still has her hand up I'm sorry I'm sorry Rebecca did you have something else to say or no no I I just didn't lower my hand okay thank you I'm sorry go ahead Lisa I just want to um just to clarify that there are some areas in this County um we are the engineers for over a dozen municipalities and cdds and Improvement districts some of them have their Maps changing Loach Groves does not have a map change need to change our Maps so so this is the I'm talking about the national flood insurance program map it's the national map has not changed is not changing in lock hatche grow however like Robert saying there is going to be changes along the okobi um area but I know for a fact because we work a lot with M municipalities on the east side of the county that the maps are changing that they are going to go into effect new maps in um by the end of this year I believe so in a good way or in a bad way we here they're not changing in on on the east side of the county they are changing in a in a very very expensive way for land owners the the federal government EV valuated at first the impacts of the Atlantic Ocean and so several years ago the maps changed for all those folks along the ocean um that was not good enough for the nfip folks they recently re-evaluated secondary impacts which occur in the inter Coastal and changed all the maps for those land owners that are near or adjacent to the inter Coastal so we have seen changes in the base flood elevation change from vary from two to three to even um more than three feet difference so it's they have now for those folks for those folks they have to if they improve their property more than 50% of the value of their property they have to raise their finished floor in some cases 3 feet so and they have little Lots so I I just wanted just to share with you that that's what's happening in other municipalities and also the CRS program is is not is not um mandated like the the flood plane ordinance was mandated and not all municipalities are in that system so that's a topic for another discussion thank you okay Rich carry on all right so the next uh slide actually two slides oh that's said all right so next we're going to go over FEMA flood plane management bulleon p2140 which is the flood plane management requirements for AR agricultural structures and accessory structures so this is currently not the town code this is um has been asked to be reviewed so on the next page wait a minute clarify that this is their specific regulation for agricultural communities but we haven't adopted agricultural structures let me get through this first and you'll probably not want to adopt it either okay because the county because the county didn't adopt it when it was presented by a prominent attorney in our area she cornered the Planning and Zoning director as well as the building official who both told her we'll look into it and they and that was three years ago and they never adopted it um and when I go over this you'll probably go okay it doesn't make sense to adopt it here either okay go ahead okay so uh going over the advantages could allow construction of certain farm buildings to occur at lower elevation possibly reducing expenses to the owner by bringing in fill and then providing the engineering analysis for the flood plane impacts uh it reduces the importation of of fill material for foundations and helps preserve the base flood elevation the disadvantages requires specialized building materials possibly contractors with greater material installation costs in the structure other structures requires the building officials to review the submittals and inspect the projects requires compliance inspections open design can allow waste to accumulate the discharge into a concentration uh waste is that's received by the town's drainage canals can become a Town's issue waste received in by the town's drainage system May contaminate the groundwater and then waste discharged to the c-51 from drainage canals can also become a town issue so on the next page we have some uh this is what what flood proofing is essentially it is um if you have a building uh specific buildings not any agricultural building but specific buildings and you wish to Wed flood proofing it has to allow the the the water run off from your property to enter that building freely and there are certain requirements which we will cover here and momentarily so that's those example of the flood proofing Gates that have to be installed on any building that's built into part of a fluid proofing plan next slide has some of the accessory structures and then also a brief list which we'll actually go over later of uh materials so the next slide what is wed flood proofing wed flood proofing is using flood damage resistant materials and construction techniques to minimize flood damage to structures by intentionally allowing flood water to enter and exit automatically without human intervention to minimize unequal pressure on walls called hydrostatic load or pressure when flood proofing also require structures to be anchored to resist flooding have mechanical and Utility Equipment elevated or protected and have flood openings installed in the walls so on the next slide we have the definition of what an agricultural structure is so for the perp for flood man flood plane management purposes an agricultural structure is defined as a structure that is exclusively used for agricultural purposes or uses in connection with production harvesting storage raising or drying of agricultural community Commodities and livestock some structur is used for agricult aquaculture are considered agricultural structures and structures used for human habitation or those are places of employment or entertainment or structures with multiple or mixed purposes do not satisfy the exclusive use requirement described below for agricultural structures and then for an Agricultural purpose the purpose of for the in this bulletin is that is used exclusively for the production of har harvesting storage raising drying of agricultural Commodities and livestock so on the next page we have the definition of a structure and which which questions have been asked about this as far as for flood plane flood plane management purposes is a structure that is Walled and roofed that is perbly above ground where the walls are are two or more equal two or more outside rigid walls and the roof is so fully secured roof the terms gas the term includes gas and liquid storage tanks and manufactur Ed homes the term structures and buildings are used interchangeably in the nfip regulations and this bulletin and the flood play manager must use professional judgment determine the proposed development projects Are Walled and roofed so an accessory structure which is another definition accessory structures are structures that are on the same partial of property as a principal and use in use is incidental to the use of the principal structure for flow plan management purposes exu accessor structures must be used for parking or storage be small and represent a minimal investment by the owners and have a low damage uh potential so then the next one is um what is a flood damage resistant material so it's defined as any building project material component system capable of withstanding direct or prolong contact with flood waters without sustaining significant damage the term prolonged contact means at least 72 hours and the term significant damage means any damage requiring more than cosmetic repair which is defined as cleaning sanitizing or resurfacing of the material and also the Cosmetic the cost of cosmetic repair should be less than the cost of the replacement of the effective materials and systems so the next couple of pages are some of those materials if you look here plywood is not considered acceptable material you have to would have to have pressure treated wood exterior wood exterior rated uh marine plywood so if you wanted to use wood you'd have to use something like that you can use block um and if you go to slide 65 60 it says unfilled concrete cells can create a reservoir that can hold water for a flood which cause the blocks difficult or impossible to clean if flood water is contaminated which means you would have to fill the the block with something which is usually concrete um if you're going to use blocks so you see the the list here of acceptable building materials is is very short um and the cost to build the structure the engineering the design everything else would probably be a lot more significant than just building it above the uh base flood elevation so on slide 66 considerations need to be reviewed so wet proof structures must be anchored to resist flotation collapse or lateral which means they have to have some type of peer or piling or somehow be attached firmly attached to the ground so they can't float away portions of the structure below the BF must be constructed with the flood damage resistant materials so if you have a resident who wants to build an agricultural structure below the blood blood base flood elevation that means that portion of the structure up to the one foot above the BFE as required by the code um has to be some type of flood damage resistant material which means that the building can potentially be made of two different materials um if the if the resident or the person wants to save money um the closed area must have must have measures to equalize the hydro static forces which means the flood vents on the sides of the building um and the mechanical and Utility Equipment including electrical heating ventilation plumbing and air conditioning must be elevated and dry proofed so you have a building that's a foot or two foot below the BF and they have an air conditioner in there now your air conditioner is this high off the ground because they wanted to build in the flood zone because they have to be a foot below above the BF so on the next page what the town needs to consider so limiting what is stored in a wet flow proof area structure because the contents will still get wet and so any contents that are stored in the in a building that's built below the BFE has to have what are considered low income low value items uh a lot of communities will specify the types of contents that can be stored and prohibit storage of hazardous material or pollutants for obvious reasons um also non-required non-conversion agreement would be part of any wet flood proofing area of structure uh the agreements would be signed by the applicants and the property owners to affirm that the uh that the owner will not convert or modify it that is inconsistent with the approved permit um specifically owner cannot convert the space into anything other than the use that it was originally made for so then what if we repeal the flood plane manager article 175 of flood plane management rules so the first thing is uh Marge will not be able to get insurance because so before you proceed I think this is a a really critical part of this okay a really critical part of this discussion in the past we've been told as a town and even had opinions from attorneys that we needed certain things like let's use the PBSO contract we were told that we had to have a PBSO contract and when we questioned that we got a lot of push back and we said we're just asking what law or what ordinance or what what Authority says we have to have this and in fact none could be produced and we don't have to have PBSO is the end result so this is very important one of the things that you keep saying as staff is that we have to have this or there will be consequences so what I I'd like you before you say what the consequences are of dropping the flood plane I'd like you to let us know by what Authority we have to have it okay Rebecca I'm sorry go ahead go ahe Rebecca go ahead there is um a federal law for the national flood insurance program that uh establishes um what's the criteria for participating which Richard went through adopting an and enforcing an ordinance is one um and if you elect to uh withdraw from the program or be suspended which would happen if you uh repealed your 175 then the statute and I don't have the statutory uh citation in front of me I can easily send it to Richard uh says that not only is National flood insurance uh uh not available but certain forms of federal Disaster Assistance would not be available to you but I can provide those statutory citations So when you say Federal Insurance that's FEMA insurance but people could still get private insurance like Marge has here this right Insurance she could get still get private insurance she just couldn't get FEMA insurance or flood insurance available my guess is that given the fees that she described Mo almost 90 some percent of federal flood insurance is managed or serviced by private insurance companies it is federal Insurance backed by the national flood insurance program but it's serviced by regular uh home and property insurance agents so then the simple answer is none would be available I I cannot there is private having no federal engagement whatsoever there are insurance companies that provide um blood insurance uh and FEMA FEMA just says be careful they can cancel at any time femma can't cancel a policy um they may have different limits different coverage FEMA can't speak to uh truly Federal insurance I mean uh truly private insurance but uh I think what um Mrs Marge's H policy given what she described it is nfip insurance that is sold by the right insurance company so hers would be cancelled in other words yes okay thank you Laura and the there there are two circumstances where FEMA can cancel policies and one is if the community uh repeals its um ordinance I believe I don't know for sure whether they can uh cancel immediately or 30 days notice or whether they have to honor the contract through the end of the the rest of the year yeah Laura Rebecca um repeat please um what you said I was trying to write certain types of federal disaster help mitigation what did you say yes certain types of Disaster Assistance and that has changed over time uh for example if a public building that was in a flood plane was damaged by flooding Disaster Assistance is uh significantly uh limited for Recovery um some infrastructure work uh is not eligible for uh Federal Disaster Assistance um and grants now I can't speak to the state uh resiliency grant that was described um but any federal mitigation money from FEMA and I also believe some HUD money might be uh not available Okay the reason I can't be definitive is some of this has changed in the last two years and and I wouldn't expect you to be you know definitive and specific but I'm scratching my head here only because I believe it was 2012 or 2013 and our town was pounded with Biblical rain people were left stuck either in or out of their houses for 3 four five days and um I believe that our former independent water Control District we got I'm losing my battery I'm sorry I'll talk fast we got a ginormous piece of equipment as part of um FEMA help and we were also granted some funds and we were also allowed to apply labor that our workers did for this cleanup as part of the FEMA Grant so yes spting out here is we were not part of the nfip then soive me just want me get in I said some forms of federal assistance okay not all there is some emergency work that is still eligible and also some things have changed in the last 10 years absolutely thank you so to further elaborate on your question because I had the same question because after our last hurricane incident we recovered $469,000 from FMA and we were not a part of this well apparently recovering that $469,000 from FEA put us on the radar and they did an audit of I believe it was 12 properties after that incident after that recovery and all 12 properties failed and then they discovered that we were one of either 10 or 11 municipalities in the entire State of Florida that were not part of the nfip and they said you better get on it and that's when the council at that time voted to become part of it so that's that's the kind of long version of it but the complete answer thank you okay go Valerie thank you all right so um and also you know going back to what you said about the the properties I actually if anybody wants to come by my office and see it I'll show it to you I have a folder in my office about yic from apparently when FEMA came down after the this was passed and did an and did an audit after they adopted this and identified eight properties and I remember when I started here Larry said take this seriously because FEMA doesn't play around with this and apparently FEMA threatened his license if he did not correct these eight properties and I have the list of those eight properties and they did they came out they did their audit they identified the properties and told them you have to get these these properties in compliance um or they were going to suspend they were going to suspend the town they were going to take they were going to go after his license PE license they all this other stuff which at first I thought he was just EXA exaggerating and then I found the DI but in compliance to do what those eight properties what was he those properties apparently they had some type of flood damage because I I have bits and pieces of the of the documents I have bits and pieces of the stuff that he happened to save from that audit but I'm confused so there are properties that were under permit that when they were permitted the town did not enforce this policy under permit with the town the town for building oh in current Inu right okay they were in construction okay and they weren't the I guess the plant the way the way it read it looked like that what happened was is they audited the permits and said these eight properties not in compliance with your flood plan regulation you either get them in compliance with your flood plan regulation or they're going to suspend the town okay now I understand thank you was that a date when we were with Palm Beach County I don't know it was 2018 no okay I'm sorry go so the next slide which you guys probably have seen this before because we presented this we didn't go through all the consequences oh well that's where we're at 69 yeah okay yeah slide 69 yeah there you go so this is slide 69 this was actually in last months all we did is cut and paste this is out of the FEMA 480 manual which is the Article Five that you were talking about earlier Marge that's where that thing came from as well it's the same manual um so this the FEMA this is the FEMA flood plan flood plane management requirements um this is the study manual for your certified flood plane manager which is based on the code of federal regulations which what's what governs all of this so these are real consequences these are actual consequences that are documented um in code of Veta regulations which I do have if you'd like me to send them to you they're only about that thick um so sanctions for non-participation um as Rebecca had mentioned Federal flood insurance will not be available no resident will be able to purchase insurance existing insurance policies will not be renewed uh so that probably answers your question would they be termed out 30 days or end of end of uh year probably the end of their when their renewal period comes up they will be advised that the resident cannot renew uh federal grants and loans for the acquisition construction of buildings that are and identified flood area programs administered by federal agencies like HUD EPA or SBA will not be available Federal Disaster Assistance may be provided to may not be rep yeah no federal Disaster Assistance may be provided to repair insurable buildings located in identified flood Hazard areas caused by floods so our other policies would still be in effect like our wind and all that you know fire but if it's flooded you would not uh mortgages uh any mortgages that U or Insurance loan guarantees identified in flood Hazard areas um so basically you know anny M Freddy Mack any of those type of loans VA loans any veterans we have living in our town won't be able to get VA loans um and then is that they wouldn't be able to get new loans or would loans that are already existence be called in I think the I don't know that I'd have to look at I I doubt they would call them in but probably they would not be able to refinance or purchase or purchase okay right um and then federally insured lending institutions such as Banks must notify the applicant seeking Home Loans about the buildings in the flood Hazard area and then obviously the bank has the option of whether they want to assume the risk of of of have holding a mortgage on a property that might possibly be Dam destroyed and when you say the property's not eligible for federal disaster Rel relief are you really telling me that if we don't participate in this program and we have a devastating hurricane that comes through and wipes out half the town of loock Hatchy Groves F would not do anything to help us that is their that is their opinion that's their opinion ask well there's a number of residents during when Francis Gene wi all those storms came through try to get who try to get who didn't have insurance at all and try to get uh help from FEMA and FEMA told them no go through your primary insurance carer so they don't and actually the school board when I worked for the school district I actually did the walkthroughs with FEMA uh because they for Disaster Assistance and the school district want up losing $15 million because some of the claims they made either were questionable as to whether they really originated from the disaster or they weren't repaired properly so yeah FEMA doesn't have does not have any quals about taking money from people even when they give it out so um the next slide so this is an example from Logan County this is in uh an unincorporated area around the Denver in Colorado they were suspended for from their blood program this is just last year March of 2023 um they lost um they had 24 flood policies enforced with the coverage of $3.5 million um then they it says their research has shown that the local reg regulations have resulted in hundred billion dollars in flood losses that have been avoided because of the nfip but um they lost um I think it's on the yeah it's on the next slide um because there's also I I didn't put it in here and I probably should have um there are steps that are taken um the the state or the federal flood plane administrator if they ever on suspending a town they just don't walk up send a letter to the manager and say hey by the way we're suspending you they make it a public spectacle you will be on every News Channel they it literally says they have to send out press releases to all media sources in your geographic area to notify them that your town is being suspended so Channel 512 2529 the Palm Beach compost the Sun Sentinel Miami haral all these papers will get notified now whether they opt to air it or not is a different story um but something like that is sensational enough that they will they will probably air it um just like this this was in a in a newspaper and this was generated from a press release that was sent to them by FEMA so um that's just something to keep in mind um so the next page which actually we're going to have Rebecca answer so we had a resident submit questions and I'm not going to go through all of these you guys can read them but um a resident had submitted a series of questions to FEMA which were answered um and these are the answers to that Resident because they all the questions and answers were sent to me um by Rebecca because she's the one who answered them on behalf of the state which is well she already told her story so I just want to clarify these questions were were submitted by a resident to FEMA to FEMA FEMA did not answer them directly they don't do that by policy or something and but they did provide the answers to you to provide to the resident no they provided him to her they provided him to the resident as well okay these were sent to the resident I was cced on the email that was sent back to the resident so these are the responses to the resident of the questions that that Resident asked okay thank you 73 next slide please all right so here's a hypothetical um application of the information so a resident has a house on a barn purchased in 2015 he owns four horses lives beside a wooden lot the wooded lot is purchased cleared and regraded the lot owner constructs a fence driveway barn and a new house the driveway of the nearly cleared lot covers covered with two to three inches of water during the next three fairly minor rainfalls the owner of the new lot digs a small ditch to take the water to the property Edge away from his driveway during the next rain heavier than the three previous rains and the new driveway remains dry several days later the neighbor neighboring owner notices the three to four horses are showing signs of rain rot on their rear legs for the first time in nine years during the next major Ray their Drive driveway is covered in 2 to three inches of water and during the next hurricane their Barn is two to three inches deep in standing water also the first time in the history of the resident's occupation so yeah paes went flying across all right so next slide so some of the questions that the council needs to consider actually this so at what point should a resident be willing to accept drainage on their property from changes made by somebody else or somebody else's property could the town be considered liable for reducing the require required level of protection and what if Pro if the problems occur on several Lots away from the site changes instead of directly next door with the two unaffected Lots in between should a resident be more or less willing to accept the additional runoff onto their property in that case phis has a question before so once again this is a townwide problem you know and and we have ditches and swells and coverts and canals townwide so it does affect the neighbors always right but the question is is at what point now if we let a a resident dig their own ditches and do whatever which causes run off and go on somebody else's property at what point well I'm going to say this I don't think a lot of us had a problem until we had the town telling us to fill in our ditches and to put up firms and all that because I don't remember people saying my neighbors flooding me you know unless you know this has become a problem since the FDA has been required and I feel that you know whoever was in charge of implementing this in 2017 and 2018 was doing it property by property not townwide and I think that's how we ended up in this situation we have townwide drainage that we share well just the main canals but the main canals aren't what's called not just in the main canals Richard we share ditches along all most of of our properties most of a large acreage especially there was normally a ditch like either there's a ditch that was built in for every section which is every 20 acres has a drainage between that was part of the original development so that's what I'm saying I I think but unfortunately like my neighbor planted kusas in that okay so now that's out of my property floods so not everybody respects that or has kept that original yeah but that's why I'm saying our historical ditches are important and if somebody fills them in and unfortunately the town has agreed or suggested to some Engineers that their residents need to fill in ditches but that ditch needs to be cleaned out it's a historic ditch so I'm just saying that this is the problem it it's not property by property it's townwide and our infrastructure has been ignored way too long and I think that's step one bite the bullet and start fixing our wear and our our our drainage our canals well currently our drainage and our canals do accept all of the water from all of the properties the our canals are not what's backing up into people's yards it's other people's yards backing up into other people's yards as the mayor had stated her yard used to used to drain fine until her neighbor decided to plant trees or bushes in the in the sweat in the ditch I can take you to a street right now that the entire road is underwater and our sale is beautiful and right where it's supposed to be it's not it's not the town's infrastructure that's the problem it's the residents flooding other residents I've had more people come to my office complaining about this guy did this this and this without permit and now he's flooding my yard he's hurting my horses he's damaging my property you bring in 40 loads of dirt yeah without a site plan then yes you're going to flood your neighbors and apparently that is part of what's happened here I'm trying to keep my mouth shut but I do feel I want to interject if you wouldn't mind just one moment one the rules that we're talking about were made in 198 7 by 1987 about 650 of the parcels here had been subdivided unrecorded subdivisions and all of those 600 and some parcels have not had to take care of any drainage those are often properties that have obliterated drainage dishes um and so it does seem to fall to the town to try to fix the drainage for those so that that's item one just kind of putting some things in perspective item number two we're supposed to be this 5 acre Community but absent those 650 properties we not necessarily a 5 acre Community the way we used to be and the reason for that is if you take a look at what's happened at the real estate here for the last number of years people have been buying and selling like crazy and when you had old neighbors that were good friends and they had easement and drainage and cross access and all that other stuff there was an amount of respect and all it takes is some sale to happen and something isn't recorded and that's the case with a lot of our um historical types of drainage and access which is something we've been talking to council about trying to fix as well not just the FDA but the the access and easements and so I think that a lot of the situation is because we don't have the same old neighbors respecting each other living next to each other on 5 acres and 5 Acres we have 10 acres turning into 25s and easement disappearing and all drainage agreements not being considered by the engineers hired by the property owners as they come to figure out how they can fit into calculations and now I'm going to add my final comment a burm had been considered the easy least expensive path it is not it puts a greater burden on surrounding properties and without looking at all the properties as they develop together and live and exist next to each other with the uses that they have in the town's natural Watershed we will always have these problems so we do have to change how we handle our infrastructure and also our rules and I know we're going to start talking about town rul rules in a moment but most of our rules have to wait until we finish our vulnerability assessment because when we finish the vulnerability assessment only then will we have the information that lets us look at the flow of water or the flood plane Management in groups of properties bless you and in groups of areas throughout the town and so while we're going through the triangulation a federal state agency town we have to also remember that we're way behind on some stuff because the district and the town only came together in 2017 this ordinance was only here in 2017 and we finally just last year got the grants so we could do the $350,000 study to figure out how to manage the flow for the whole town I just felt it was necessary to kind of put things in perspective after an hour and change of chat as we go into the Town rules when will that be completed it's going to be completed earlier than expected but it should be still within a year and that is part of our discussion tonight yes it is part of our discussion tonight question yeah thank you for your Indulgence does that mean that um ditches that have been filled in uh will possibly be required to be reass established I can't actually say what any individual solution is I think that where we can and I'll give you an example um we have identified areas where drainage ditches have been obliterated that we would like to reopen um some particularly in the subdivision areas so a general answer to your question is yes but relative to individual properties and how those work out I can't really answer that this moment okay because um the property south of my property used to have around the north the East and the South Side a a functioning um system where it was a farm and they would use it for irrigation and they had huge pumps and they had huge deep ditches that they filled in after they sold to someone else yeah so from the town's perspective the individual properties it will depend on their location and a whole bunch of different things that we still need the rest of the year to try to figure out but from the maintenance point of view for the town there are ditches that we can reactivate okay because I I mean I brought in uh loads and loads uh uh soil to raise mine to stop the flooding uh in my eastern most uh five acres and um it's not working well I I can't fight the water it keeps coming so I think that's the real issue for everybody that's why I think our Engineers need to finish going through some of their recommendations and thank you for your Indulgence on might kind of try to sum it up thank for your comment Francine okay Richard assist you continue or okay please so um he got two more slides that I'm doing but so article 175 so one of the requests made by several council members was to review our requirements with what everybody else has so as it says on the slide Wellington Royal pal belglade Lakeland Davey Palm City Clon lebel and Pookey as well as pretty much every other Council or every other town and uh has the exact same word for word um ordinance flood plane ordinance um like I said belglade bokei you know these all these areas have the exact same flood plane ordinance on the exact same flood plane requirements that the that we do in this town you mean rural communities like belade have the same that we have same requirements that we have exact same ordinance thank you word for word and and you put see on this slide that you have the references so if you'd like to go review them on your own um like I said belglade Lakeland Le Bell cliston um pooki those are all extremely rural areas and they have the exact same flood plane requirements so question are they filling in their ditches and putting BMS in I have no idea what they're doing I but I'd be curious to call and find out what they're doing in more of their not their smaller parcels and their larger Parcels so my experience here thus far I mean obviously I can't go back to before I started here or started reviewing these uh plans but um I personally have not told anybody to fill anything in and we cannot tell Engineers you can't fill this ditch in you can't do this you can't do that that gets into means and methods so if an engineer comes in with a site plan and says this is what we want to do most of the time they have their owner's input I would hope they would have their owner's input as to what the owner Visions for their property and if that includes that you know there's a ditch over here I understand that but you know what I want to put my bar here so to do that I have to fill this ditch in yeah engers are blaming the town oh yeah I know one in particular who's blaming the town more than one is blaming the town um and yeah they do and we that's why we tell when owners call us we tell them like we don't tell we review for these regulations and that is it do they have the compensating storage are they keeping the Run UPF on their property I've suggested putting basically a moat their property if they wanted to that'll hold that'll keep the water on their property it'll accept any runoff from any other property and they have a control structure that keeps the water all their water from going on to arm it's called a ditch I like mo better you can fill it with alligators MO is more dramatic okay last slide for you so what makes us different even though the municipalities communities have the same or stringent flood plane ordinances lock ety Groves is different because the current towns PL originally was 60 foot wide rways that are now being both used for both Road and drainage and remain of change since 1925 when that started to happen uh most comparable rural districts have updated their underlying framework in the interim subdivisions were on unrecorded plats containing non-conforming Lots create pockets of unusually high density without formal Provisions for drainage and they have become the town's responsibility to buy default we have limited drainage and roadway infrastructure um we have no plan easement dedicated ation or to the town HOA or a land owner um lack of or deferred maintenance which we have talked about at nauseum in the past and then as I mentioned earlier we have no impoundment areas we have no storage areas for water uh we lack Lakes We lack drainage basins um all the drainage basins that are here are owned by the residents and so they have control structures that keep their water on their property and that keeps the the our infrastructure from being inundated uh from all the water from the from the entire town all at once and the town has remained Faithfully a rooll for over 110 years while comparable areas have shifted to a more mechanical agricultural methods including typically more industrial processing facilities for agricultural products anybody have any questions on section three before we move on did everybody get Robert you good everybody's good okay section four Town rules um hi I'm Tara Bamber um I'm Town engineer work for Ingenuity group and I'm going to go over the town um yeah speak of Tera sorry speak into the mic this is the important all important okay um so the Town rules that refer to Road and drainage design is um shown on this slide here um article 70 and 130 are used primarily for the site development permit requirement perits um which is one of the things I do I review those permits um and this list also guarantees that the town's level of service for rouage and drainage follows the town's comprehensive plan next slide um so article 130 is um the town's concurrency reviews in other words the town's site development permits um it's all those requirements um so it applies to development of vacant land increase in residential density on improved lands increase in non-residential building area on improved lands um or any change of use um reviews are used to determine the amount of additional demand created from the proposed development or increase in intensity of use including drainage into our canals and additional driveways next slide okay um this is section 13- 035 um is used for drainage level of service um again this is what I use um when I review the uh Engineers design um and this criteria for yeah um particularly I use two three four and six for residential and A non-residential Properties um all of the store monitor systems must be designed to South Florida Water Management District and Loach water Control District rules next slide um so I'm going to go over to and five um so two basically says that the code is um um uses the 25-year 3-day for perimeter elevations um and the attention of this is to not impact adjacent properties um swes are not are were not opposed to swailes but they do have to have drainage easements so each party knows that you can't fill in this sale because you're pack impacting mine but these are private easements so we can't tell people to do it I I recommend it I recommend it before um but I can't make them unless if you want to do a town sale or drainage ement then the town is responsible so um number five um this is the allowable discharge rate calculated from the 25y year 3-day storm um it's important for the town to store uh rainfall in the canals prior to the private properties flowing into the system which I think we've covered but it's very important because the reason that they hold that back is so we can use our canals to hold the water for our roads and our Systems Prior to everybody just flowing into it right next slide okay um so this is number three from that 13-35 this is basically the calculations required from an engineer briard to submit for the roadway discharge and perimeter elevation um and for finish floor elevation so we talked about the 10e one day 10 3day 10 year 25 and the the 10 year or 100e 3-day um which which I show what those are for and then the the rainfall amounts and then again all the systems need to be designed per South Florida water Manch District criteria and loat Groves water Control District criteria any questions anybody how long does it take you to review a site plan for an FDA okay so when a not all the permit are the same understand I'm looking for an average um so right now it's probably about two to three weeks of the the um beginning um when we have to review like before we make comments and we have to review everything I'm going to be honest and it's been a little bit more um lately because I'm just getting somebody um uh trained to help me and I can get up to six reviews per day so to say that I can do all of those plus all the back order plus all the things that everybody else is asking me to do it's hard it is hard um would do we want to do better yes we want to do better three weeks for do you have any plans and what what's your goal so what's your goal what what are you going to change you're changing you're training somebody to work with you so that's one that's that's a good move what else so that's training so um my goal is to do 21 days for initial and then two weeks for resubmittal and then close out 10 days okay thank you so um so we're going to go to number five no nobody else has any questions on that section no La you look like you want to say something I do but I'm not quite sure how to put it all together as you're coming up with a a a better mouse trap one of the things that we need here in the town for the residents is less expensive and more clear in you know what what needs to happen so is any of the autom that the town is doing internally is that going to help with any of this so yeah there's some um proposed suggestions that would kind of wrap up that would answer your question okay I have more but I'll wait okay um so the next one is Land Development permitting I'm going to go over the actual process um this yeah so this is the process this is what a land owner goes through from start to finish to get an FBA yes get a site developed okay right all right go ahead so this first slide shows the first checklist on our Land Development permit application um so they need to submit all of these um these items whether it's site development or RightWay um so everything's intake by the permit coordinator and then she makes sure that all of these are checked off um including the fee and then it goes to me is this just standard standard yeah and can I ask Francine how long does this take does this take as long as it takes for the applicant to get all the information to us or how long does it take for our person to pull it together we are not supposed to accept intake without a complete package and payment we are supposed to turn it around within 24 to 48 hours to the engineers and they are supposed to turn it around back to the applicant in 21 days with the first review comments okay right you're you're saying you're you're supposed to is that what the town's been doing have they been turning them around within 24 hours uh actually I saw that we had a couple that took three or four days this month and I think it had to do with people being out of the office but um terara and I try to communicate whenever anything looks like it's taking too long thank you yeah and we're trying to use better systems and not just email because email can get lost or you know um so we're using gov easy and then we're going to get a better system right MGM um within I don't know we've done a couple of internal trainings with our staff and with the engineers and also our building official um because we're trying to adopt a little bit more of a streamline process so that everything gets in the system on the front end and flows through without a lot of manual intervention and back and forth thank you you're welcome okay so this slide shows um the checklist um if it's a site development or a RightWay and then we have a lot of different RightWay um permanent applications um it can come in with a site development end Ora right away usually it's not just the right way but we've had that too um so then the other checklist is the minimum documents required for the site development permit um including plans from the licens engineer and a recent boundary and Topo survey how long is this permit um good six months and what does it cost to get the permit next page I don't have an answer for that they're doing yeah yeah I so a lot of it depends on the engineer um and this is the problem that we have with this taking so long and what's interesting is our building official actually submitted to us two um breakdowns of how long it takes for Wellington to review site plan or engineering they call them engineering permits to do two engineering permits the contract the engineer that they submitted was an employee of the Village of Wellington helped write their standards one had to go through two reviews the second permit had to go through three reviews so this is a guy that wrote helped write the standards that Wellington uses and still had to have three reviews to get a permit issued and it took 60 days um our biggest issue and then every time it gets reviewed there's additional fees because then the engineer and me and everybody else has to go look at it all over again because it isn't submitted correctly the first time um so if you know we have a pre-application meeting we meet with all the parties we say this we need this this this and this they submit this this this and this and everything is is Happy gol lucky H H and it gets out of here for less than what the fees are on here with the escrow um if the engineer tries to throw and I'd like to say throw against the wall and see what sticks um which is a lot of times what happens is we wind up becoming the a department for the a lot of these engineering firms so they'll submit whatever and then we say well you can't do this you can't do that you got to do this you got to do that and then they take it back and then they try to do the bare minimum send it it back like look we told you you need to do this you need to do that you need to do this and then it keeps going back and forth unfortunately the owner is the one who winds up paying for it but um you know we can't control if their engineer doesn't submit what we ask for and you know typically our comments are very clear as to what we're asking for like like you know the boundary and Topo survey it's written right here you'd be amazed how many times we get surveys that are boundary surveys but don't have the toppo on it it's like you can't determine storm water uh calculations without a top a topographical survey and so our question is is to the engineers how did you do the storm water calculations if you don't have the too survey and then we get the head scratching and everything else so that's a lot of the issue with the expense is coming from the developers engineering do you think the permit should be extended to uh one year instead of six months I know Wellington does two years on site development permits the way um we've talked about and actually I think that's in our suggestions we've talked about how um because right it's in ordinance right now it's in um it's in I believe it's i f which ordinance it is but it's in ordinance that it's good for 180 days the site development perp is good for 180 days that ordinance would have to be changed right but two I mean like I said Wellington does it for two years and that's not because it takes a while to develop site time you get the permit until you time you actually develop the site do all the work build the houses build the barns do this do that and then the site is completely done it could take up to a year year and a half I mean we don't want to leave a bad taste in the mouth of a new Resident trying to establish thems in our town you know so I think I think we need to improve on what we're doing in the engineering uh you know process something has to improve if if we're having this much of an issue I don't I just want to say one thing Lisa should share with you all when you get done with the questions that she has actually reached out to I think 10 of the engineers we do the most work with external Engineers to get their input and she has met with I'm going to say at least half of them or heard back from at least half of them I think that's important to hear the other thing is is that if you take a look at the time the gaps and we have many things we need to improve there is never going to be a time I'm going to say we're there even when you think we're there we still have a way to go but the timing is really the floating after we send our comments so if we have two rounds of review that's nice and easy and we're done in 60 to 90 days but once we send comments out they stay out there and we don't have to go run them down that's up to the property owner and their Engineers so that I think is the reason why not just us but other places use 180 days because it kind of puts the onus on people to get things moving now that being said I don't have any problem if we decide to change it but that's the only thing we have that keeps people with you know a Target date in mind so I think you're going to hear from our Engineers about what the other Engineers had to say phis your question is page 85 is this the current fees or is this a suggestion for this is current I know um Jeff is a valuating the current fees um and I think even the time length um so that we can have a real a real feed I think these are going to go up so but they get they get it back eventually and this also this is for we used to give it back right after permit approval but this is for preconstruction and construction and close out so so the 180 days once somebody goes past their 180 days then obviously they need an extension how much is that well if they go ahead and call us before it expires we're very happy to help them renew it um and the that would cost well I'm not going to quote it right now I can't but there is a cost there is but we often wave that cost and the costs we're talking about here are not large costs the costs that are large are the outside Engineers let me tell you what the numbers were until last year every the reason this was priced at an escro deposit of 2000 is because pretty much every one of the FDA reviews that we did was under 2,000 we rarely went over the 2,000 things being as they are times change prices increase right now it looks like we're running more at 3500 but that's our cost for an FDA someplace between 2 to 4,000 that's not on a gr a Town Center that's on you know a farm yeah exactly the outside engineering costs the outside engineering costs they are more along the lines of 15 to 20 or 15 to 25,000 we also checked with the engineering prices of the same kind of development in neighboring areas and we're the engineers aren't charging more to do the work here um we got two um done by the same engineer stormwater J stormwater J does work here stormwater J does work all over I'm not pointing them out ex rather not use anybody specifically I I am because he gave us the information readily and the pricing is the same you still you have a continuation yes so it says here Engineers Cal calculations what if it's not a huge project I mean what if the what if the landowner can do the calculations themselves that's not possible why because well maybe they have an engineer in the family that isn't going sign off on it but maybe they're not going to sign off on it but they're going to say hey I'm going to save you $10,000 I'm GNA do the work for you but it's gonna it's like an owner Builder you're not actually building it you're going to hire a subcontractor but you go pull an owner Builder so is it's it's not possible it's not allowed or pardon it's not allowed it's not allowed so everybody has to hire a licensed engineer to sign off on their site plan no matter what the project it's just like hiring arit to do your building putting the shed in the yard they need an engineer adding two stalls they need an engineer we were going to talk about that all right if if you alter elevation in a flood plane you need a licensed professional to submit the B calculations based on Federal and State right but that's what I'm okay thank you Laura you have something else yeah um this this sounds silly um so application fee in escrow deposit $2500 and as somebody's application is going through the queue is the escrow used as it floats through the Que and accumulates days and times in the queue or when you lay your eyes and actually touch it use it calculate it I'm gonna answer for that the reason we get an escrow is because we don't get the bill from the engineer until after they do the work but we couldn't get it build to um the applicant fast enough so the escrow is to cover the time right away I think I'm explaining it right though so I submit an application I checked all the little boxes it moves forward to the engineer and because of backlog or whatever it sits for eight days it you know there's no charge okay so once somebody lays hands and eyes on my application that's when the escr is used you only yes and it only and you you sign checks so you're going to appreciate what I'm going to tell you now we get a billing in from Ingenuity that billing then goes into gy and so the the the permit will not be able to move on if they've spent more than their escra okay okay so we're trying to keep it so it's truly a pass through thank you you're welcome I'm sorry not to stop the movement correct we don't want to stop need when are they notic that they need to put more money in the bank for the es well that's the other beautiful thing we're trying to also automate because those that's reconciled straight into the accounting system and there's a project number for each one of the escrow accounts and so we can run a project report any day so this is what the gov Easy System talking about robertt yes thank you Madam chair um question I have is in previous slides the nfip FEMA they all said that had to be a certified engineer that submitted or approved these calculations that's my question why do we have two different Engineers the owner hires an engineer the town hires an engineer like you said you build a house you get an architect the town doesn't hire an architect to review the architect you have the building official and the plan reviewer just like we have a flood plane manager that can review them so that's my question is why is the professional engineer being paid twice the owner pays an engineer you're saying1 $15,000 and the owner pays the town now it's up to $3,500 why are we paying two Engineers to review this same thing it goes back to the same question as is we have to have two or three iterations the engineer that the owners are hiring obvious are not able to submit the correct plans the first time when I worked for the building department for palmach County I had somebody come up to me and says why do we have to have a licensed reviewer review licensed contractor's work that was designed by a licensed uh engineer and it's the same reasons it's you know they don't you know a lot of shortcuts are taken a lot of times they don't do what they're supposed to they don't do what's requested and so somebody has to review it um whether they're licensed or not um I when I worked for a water of utilities we had a thing on the wall with a picture of a capsized ship and on it it says just because you have a license doesn't mean you know what you're doing and a lot we've had plenty of people submit things to us and we all scratch our heads wondering how they pass their PE exam so you have to have somebody has to review this stuff to verify that they are complying with the requirements of the town and the ordinances and laws of the state and federal government that we are required to comply with I think what Robert I think what Robert's suggesting is that why why should they have to hire an engineer at all why shouldn't they just put in the site plan and let you do the calculations when they come in I think and pay one engineer I believe that's what suggesting talking about t well let me let me see if that's what he suggested because I had is that what you're thinking I think that think that would be great you would have consistency it would be townwide and and we wouldn't have to go back and forth right yeah yeah it's a I mean because that's my part of my question was it's a liability who is who is the p and then who's who's I mean the town PE that approves it that is the PE under this F or whatever the initials are for the national flood ins church program or is that own is pushed back on the owner's PE even though the town PE approved it who is ultimately the flood insurance program staying is controlling this town flood plane is it these private engineers and individuals are holding hiring or is it the town engineer it's you the guy raising his hand right blood plan manager yeah so if you're responsible anyhow why don't you do the calculations I if you're liable anyhow why would why why don't you guys just do the calculations okay so I think I'm going to go into this a little bit I mean it's okay let let me let Phils ask question we're just stuff out there you guys can hold the phone a second okay so Robert I I maybe I thought you were going in a different direction Robert hired an engineer okay and then they come to you but my question was with all this back and forth so Robert has a engineer one engineer but then it goes to Ingenuity which has several Engineers okay and then you critique it it goes back to Robert's engineer okay but then it goes back to Ingenuity again right after he fixes what your critique is but you're off for a week so now another engineer is looking at it and then he's going to send back maybe something that you wouldn't have but he's never seen this site plan before so now it's going back again and this is actually happened and this is a scenario that I've heard of many times and then he goes back and he's like where did they come up with this I've never seen this before so then it goes back to Ingenuity again and then it has to go back so that's what I'm saying it what is the guarantee that the same engineer is seeing it every time so because it's an opinion also correct well no it's not an opinion because we're using State statutes we're us the things that are in the town code I'm not just opinion saying that you know I don't like the way it look I understand you do calculations but what I'm hearing is sometimes things go back that are were never discussed before and all of a sudden a lot of back that happens is if they didn't have calculations if they didn't have the right calculations and then they do things and then they didn't do it correctly so yes I'm going to comment about that but we don't add add comments that weren't given the first time it's that's like a rule yeah okay that's a state rule well I guess the confusion here to me is somebody hires an engineer but then it who this is the problem the original engineer doesn't have the code the standards and what the town want right here they have it yes then what is all the back and forth they didn't do it correctly throw it against the wall figure out what sticks and hope to get past the thing that they possibly can it happen it happened when I worked over there it happens here it work when I work for bage County it work work in the building department and this is why the town has to have an engineer to review the calculations of the residents Engineers yes because if you let people just I mean we've talked about this go out and do whatever they think is right we're gonna have problems flooding like Francy two quick things one it's like having a building official engineering isn't self-certifying neither is building you hire a contractor to do your building and the building official or the inspector goes out and does the inspection this is very much on the same order as that the other thing is your questions are really good because a lot of this stuff Lisa and the team have already addressed in terms of some recommendations that are going to come forward I'll just give you a little teaser here so you could get to it you mentioned the shed well a shed isn't going to be too big so you might want to hear some of the suggestions that they have let's get through the slides picture Town Hall we're on 88 picture of town hall underwater a picture of town hall a picture of town hall underwater 86 and 87 okay 88 so um 80 86 that's what we were on yeah 86 and 87 are Town Hall Town Hall underwater that's fine blood map got it so we're moving to 88 sure okay we got it Town Halls under water we got all right so we probably just talked about all of this but um this is the pering process um this it shows or it's the submittal the review time the necessary reviews um the back and forth between Engineers um but the town staff uh well we talked about that too the responsibilities um and sometimes those reviews get impacted for the timeline but um you want the property owner always to be involved um they should be in communication with their engineer recer you know discuss that um yeah we really discuss all of this all right so next slide um so this is what I trying to get to so you're engineer of record they spend four times as much time as we do to review that's the one hired by the land owner yes okay yes to put their plans together they need the boundary and toppo Survey which the owner has to get first um and then they create a site development plan so which is for these type of projects they're doing the building the drainage the sep the septic the the driveways the slabs tanks sand Rings paddocks pens stalls so they have to create that on one to what you know two plan one plan or two plans or whatever it takes um but all of that is not like when I do something for a house they already have all of that you know and and from what I understand for these plans they have to do all they kind of have to act as the site plan um architect as well who is B the engineer yeah and then their plan goes to building like I'm just trying to point out that you know they have a lot of responsibilities as well um so then they have to do the pre-development conditions the post- development conditions um and then take all of that to find finished floor discharge control structure um and then and then they have to modify based on those calculations what they you know already did and then it's the back and forth with us um as needed okay any more questions on that we're gonna go recommendations yes great okay let me yes can you hear me we can yes okay um Let me let me just say a couple things the engineer of record that is being hired by the landowner is looking out for the landowner it's that person's responsibility to listen to the landowner and create what they believe um is is in the best interest of their client which is the landowner we are the engineers on your behalf we are here on your behalf and to make sure that we follow all of these rules the federal rules the state rules the Town rules so so even though we're Engineers we're we have two different um obligations and so it's necessary um for us to be here on your behalf so as Francine had stated let me let me double back um in the beginning of all this um Randy had done an excellent job explaining all of these State rules and regulations and the bottom line is the obligation of nobody adversely impacting another that's what we have to try to to look at and accomplish that also includes the town the town should not be adversely impacting I agree okay we're all in this together so um so the comments with respect to that the town should not be adversely impacting um any anyone and we all need to work together to make sure that that doesn't happen or it doesn't get worse okay so I did send out a survey to the folks the engineers of record um almost probably close to eight engineer records uh firms and um actually received in writing from two engineering firms and one verbally um the bottom line is the biggest concern is turnaround and so we hear it and there's definitely rooms for there's definitely an improvement that we need to do and so this is why we came up with some short-term suggestions and we're and we're asking that um that you let us know there's five items on here if this is important to you all for us to proceed with okay so the biggest concern was the some of the engineers feel that we are changing the rules that we change the rules Midway we're making comments that aren't clear and we're not turning things around quickly so the number one item that we feel is important to have is to implement a pre-application meeting because obviously if we can understand what the landowner wants and what the engineer of record is proposing on the front end then on the backend it makes it easier for folks like Tara to understand what the objective is in the beginning of this project process not in not after in a react mode do we understand what they possibly want to achieve and here's the engineer of Records way to accomplish something to benefit the land owner do you ever look at the physical property or is just on paper so that's a great question because part of having a pre-application meeting should also include the ability for us to visit the site prior to because that's where we understand where those Mutual ditches and swells are that's where we understand where we need to work with the adjacent Property Owners we can request all day long to topographic information of the applicant's property and that's what we get sometimes like Richard said sometimes we don't even get that and we have to send it back but a lot of times we'll get topography just on that person's property and the engineer of record's job is just to deal with that property but guess what we need to go out there because next to them is a shared Swale or a ditch and it's important for us to to analyze outside of the property limits when we're looking at these projects okay so these are lovely suggestions this pre-meeting but one of the issues that we're hearing or that I'm hearing and I'm sure everybody else is from citizens is the cost so how much is you adding a pre- meeting going to add to your costs which then have to be borne by the residents okay well to me at the end of the day or will it save cost because it'll make things if we understand what's happening up front and if we can explain to the engineer of record that if you don't give us the following this this this this according to federal state and town codes we we on the back end um cannot review or will be reviewing multiple times this application so you feel so I feel like if we could capture and understand on the front end what they're trying to do the land owner then on the back end the process should be quicker quicker which would save money which would save money okay thank you it's more of a communication to it you know a lot of times we don't even know who the land owner is we've had land owners that come in and say I don't know what's happening here and it's it's important to engage the person that's paying all of this which is the land owner to be a part of this process absolutely and it's important for us to explain to the engineer of record and there are many of them we've we just communicated with um a half a dozen of the folks that do this regularly and so um and it was important to get their feedback and one of them was the process so I think that if we have better communication on the front end it'll ultimately save money on the backend okay thank you okay so there was a list of items that we wanted to be able to talk about the permitting process what's expected of the engineer of record we need to review each person's site because like you're saying Phyllis you need to we need to go out there because every site is unique every site is different and every site affects the exactly um we would like to to be more efficient to dedicate a day um we've done this in other municipalities collect all your questions we will be here on this day and then we can help answer some of the questions that land owners or Engineers have that way we could do them multiple multiple applications and be more efficient not do it just because somebody comes in today and then we have to answer the questions let's let's collect all the information and have a dedicated day when we can help answer these applicants um and so yes um site visits are important and also to explain the permit closeout process there's a process on the back end too that needs to be explained and I don't think we're explaining it to them in the beginning so that's one thing that we re would like to we are are recommending to you all to see what you all feel as policy makers okay the second item is to talk about potential permit exemptions at the last meeting you had asked us to see if we could find anything out there that doesn't need necessarily need a permit so let's try to look for that and we did two let me just back up 2A is these are old resolutions from n from 2017 that didn't get codified and we're just stating what 2017 yes so we're just stating and here's the housekeeping issue that the those resolutions are in reference to the flood plane ordinance the flood plane administrator and the flood plane process that was approved many years ago and so it's just a housekeeping thing we just would like to be able to get that codified so that it's in the rules properly um we did find a County ordinance it's pb-1 128 that allows for 20 cubic yards of clean fill to be placed not in a flood plane every two years this is what the county calls it for developed properties for maintenance such as Landscaping which could include driveway and equestrian maintenance if it is the pleasure of the council we would like to look into that some more and and possibly come to you to say we this is something that we could propose here in town there's been a lot of folks that want to be able ble to um replenish their replenish their equestrian um areas and so we hear you and this is a code that we found 20 20 cubic yards isn't very much for a paddock I'd like you to see if it can be than that and so and so this is this is the County's code and we can we could um one Lots one acre lot so five acres might get more than 20 so maybe they'll come back okay all right yeah let's look into numbers for bigger Lots because 20 cubic yards okay great won't replenish my chicken pen so so the third okay so the third item is to okay so you all know you've been hearing we can't change the federal NF the flood plane ordinance we can't change South Florida Water Management District the Florida Administrative Code the Florida Statutes right but we could definitely look at our own town codes look at our ourselves and so um there is wording in section 13-35 that relates to site per site perimeter elevations should be a certain 25e 3-day storm and it somewhat gets all misinterpreted that we are making people put in burms though there's no mention of the word burm and there's and there's other ways to address this issue so we would like to look at the verbage with respect to this this article because it's confusing and it's ambiguous and we we might have to take a look at how the environmental resource permit from the Water Management District looks at this and the c-51 Basin because the c-51 Basin rule does not talk about a 25y year 3-day storm it talks about a 10-year three-day storm which is two different storm EVS so it's confusing plus we know and we encourage the use of mutual swells or Mutual ditches between properties those should be those should have easements and we should encourage it so it's it's it's a little bit confusing and I think we need to look at that we all think that we need to look at that some more we need to enforce existing drainage easements like Francine had said sometimes we can't even find these old easements but we're doing the best we can to get this historical information so that where those ditches are filled if there are historical easements they need to be cleaned out so um we need to specify that a 10-year one-day Road elevation should only be for town roads and not for individual Property Owners um I mean yeah residential right um private driveways um should not be higher than the roads jent to it at the property line okay again I think that's a problem to why okay our roads are way higher all right so again again the the goal is we don't want to adversely impact adjacent properties the fourth item is to talk about Minor modification permits or di Minimus activities we need to come back to you in our in our Collective opinion to better find a minor minor modification for land owners um part of the pre application meeting I think is also to explain to the engineers of record because some of them didn't even know this that if a landowner chooses to after the development of their property if they choose to to have their property that's out of the flood plane um changed off of this flood plane map there is a what's called a lar a letter of map revision and it's a it's a process but FEMA has one and so we've explained that to some of the engineers of record they didn't even know what we were talking about so again there's the communication gap um that we need to be able to explain maybe in pre-application meetings that there is this letter of map revision that's a process that's already in play for those areas that are that become out of the flood plane does that make sense yeah it's not that hard to do okay um because I've done it and if you go to the FEMA map for this town and you know I noticed I was looking at other properties but my revision shows up in the town I was there you go I thought maybe it was because I was on my own computer but no I it it's yeah it shows any body that has done that right and that's an option and I think we just need to do a better job communicating that and maybe if more people did it we might raise our elevation townwide is that possible well you know when I think Marge was saying this map doesn't look the same you know those those are pre 2017 Maps I I'm sure they're a couple years prior to and then these Maps came out in 2017 so we have seen changes obviously there's been changes but but the federal government uses the same Maps before we had you know um 0304 Wilma jeene Francis we had nfip maps from from like the 80s and they never really changed them we just followed them was never a big issue then all then you know because of all of the hurricanes and claims and the insurance companies leaving our state and leaving us high and dry then it became an issue and now you're seeing the federal government changing them over time but those maps are old the Aerials are old so and then the last thing which I think is the most important thing we hear you we need to shorten the review process and we also need to evaluate the review fees the planning engineering and flood plane staff need to review the application simultaneously the good news is is that we're get we have this new intake software right Francine yeah and so we'll all be able to review or have in our hands the information at the same time so just bear with us as we go to make this transition it should make the the process a lot more efficient okay um with respect to evaluating the fees I just want to say that we work with a lot of municipalities and with respect to site development plans a lot of times there's a base fee and we would we've already talked about that and then there's a fee based on the value of the improvements being proposed so if someone comes in to put in a fence what well you wouldn't need a permit okay but something small a shed um the value what's the value of that pretty small SL right but if someone comes here comes before us with 10 million worth of improvements there should be a sliding scale a certain percentage those improvements should be paid to the town so that the town can continue to improve their infrastructure we don't have that and we don't have that right now so so there's sliding scales if you will if if you spend like from zero to two million should be a certain percentage of those of of that cost should come back to the town and then from like 10 million to 40 million is a different percentage I mean different cities different towns and municipalities do different things but we feel like we should present something back to you that makes sense for this town makes sense does that make sense yes okay so okay those are the five things let me just say real quick and then I'm I'm done but well the the short term is what we need input on from you guys just know that long the with respect to the long term we do need to find understand this vulnerability assessment because that's where the week links in the chain are going to be brought out and then we can adjust accordingly when we get that information and that we're not getting that for a year it could be less than a year we already have a lot of the work done on it what will happen is we'll be able to do a new the goal will be to have a new master with South Florida Water Management District so we would be able to have multiple levels of calculations based on different elevations in the town not to make it harder but to make it easier right so that's it for that's the long time how I think I would like to handle this is this what that was a very long presentation and thank you very much between all of you for for handling that so professionally what I think I would like to do if this is okay with the rest of council is allow for public comment now yes and then after the public comment we can have a discussion and give direction to on these five short terms we'll take them one at a time so I'm sure we have public comment yes mayor uh for the record we did receive three separate emails from Katie Edwards today um they've all been fored to you all um and will be attached to the minutes as part of the record uh the first um resident is Miss sish I don't know I know I know Virginia sish North Road first I want to thank engineers and staff and councel for putting this together it it's long overdue Palm Beach county is doing something similar and educating uh different members of the community on different processes and things they're going through one was affordable housing Workforce housing um so this is very very important because I will share with you that the harsh reality um is that there are buyers in this town who have just bought property in the past few years and said I'm done I haven't even gotten my flood plane application I'm putting my property back on the market that is the reality I'm a real estate agent there's one sitting on count she can tell you she's hearing the same thing that is so sad and I know you guys are professional and you work hard so if we can help find what the problem is and streamline it and hey if it's their Engineers like have a checklist and say this is what they're supposed to do for you so that you know move along you know let's get it done for them now I did hear um uh I think it was Mr glant read that the ordinance the FEMA ordinance is the same in all hounds and I've asked this question multiple times and and I heard it said tonight I think Randy said it um FEMA says substantial Improvement does it not I believe FEMA uses the word substantial Improvement to require a flood plane review my concern and this question did not get answered tonight so I will take the time unless you have the answer does our on ordinance use the word substantial or does it say any Improvement that is what I'm looking for an answer on and many people are looking for an answer on that and just let me okay that that is the big thing we're looking for um so and I guess did we get a defin I think what was the definition of substantial tonight was that more than 50% of the value or something I think it I I believe that the answer to the qu if I can address it I believe that the answer to the question you're asking was given and that that a any development requires an FDA that is what I believe it was not the word substantial but that any development requires even agricultural is not Exempted from the FDA that is what I believe was I'm going to review this to make sure read the ordinances because it was said that all the ordinances are the same um and there's been some feedback from outside saying there's they they say our ordinance is not exactly identical to female that's that's just not me I'm just telling you what the input is from the outside public would like to address your question further than me if you'd like sure okay go ahead Richard so the substantial part and FEMA usually refers to is damage if 50% of the property which is considered substanti then you have to and it's caused by flooding you have to take some kind of remediation and there are four different four I think I'm going off of memory different methods which is to uh relocate raise um REM you know remove and replace I forget what the fourth one is but that's they're typically when you everybody talks about substantial and 50% all that stuff they're talking about damages if the structure is damaged to 50% of the thank you good to know and then as far as the the the other question you asked um the scope of 175 in the first sentence says the provisions of this article shall apply to all development that is wholly or within or partially within any flood Hazard area including but not limited to the subdivision of land filling grading or other site improvements and the utility installations construction alteration remodeling enlargement Improvement replacement repair relocation or de demolition of building structures and Facilities that are exempt from the fla building code placement installation or replacement of manufactur homes and manufactured building installation or replacement of Tanks placement of recreational vehicles insulation of swimming pools or any other development okay two last questions is a tree survey part of a flood plane requirement application is a tree survey it's part of a site site development so a tree survey so somebody who wants to keep their trees has to pay to have every tree survey no oh yes there is oh yes there is absolutely there is a cost for every tree surveyed okay thank you for letting me tell you about that um well I guess the next question guess there didn't used to be because when I remove trees I I anyhow your timee okay next and finally I guess my question to council and staff is do we need to appeal to FEMA to stop this on Farm properties because Farm properties uh have multiple purposes and they need dirt uh every quarter from what I understand growing Fields I've got the sod farm across F me I'd love to know how many FD they pull because every time there's a game there's loads of side going out and guess what's coming in now I'm not talking baby dump trucks we got the big boy dump trucks 18 trucks side go out we got 18 super duper trucks of dirt coming in are they doing an FBA I guess I'll do my public records request on that one um but Arenas stalls compaction you got to put dirt even using mats and shaving so dirt is being compacted you need to bring it back in somebody has to do a FEMA flood plane for this we need to we need to right to FEMA this is absolutely ridiculous thank you okay next Mr Derek s d good evening everybody Derek shenar with DKK Consulting uh we've been working as an engineer in lock hatche Groves for about eight years we've had we have dozens of different types of projects variety of projects that we've designed in the town and you know Lisa was one of the or I'm one of the engineers that Lisa reached out to for a little bit of input on things that would help streamline the process and we've been working with Tara I've worked with Randy and over the course of the past three years just from the outside private engineer perspective I think one of the biggest problems that we've encountered within the town has been the variety of different review methods people regulations uh software processes and everything else mixed in between and it sounds like you know from what I hear tonight and what I discussed with Lisa is that we're moving into the process of hey having a an online submittal more efficient process a little more uh consistency you know but I think a lot of the frustration that everybody has experienced on the landowner side is spe you know I can tell you from my side as well it's just the inconsistency of all the different types of reviews right and the inconsistency has led to delays has led to impacts on the residents that either are moving into the town or have already been in the town and they're trying to improve their property so I think a lot of what is going on and what needs to be the focus going forward is to make sure that you know the the landowner side and the people that are trying to develop within town of lock AI grow are frustrated because of all these changes that have happened over the course of three years you know and it's it's been a moving Target you know we've you know like I said we've done plenty of work within the lock atche grow area and you know it's been a moving Target on our side so you know I was happy to hear from Lisa saying hey can you guys provide some input from your side because you know it's it's been difficult now as far as Solutions go I think you know there there's been um some land owners that have been negatively impacted Big Time mainly from the code enforcement side that uh you know they're under current violations now and you know it would uh from what I understand there's been some sort of cessation of fees or fines or things like that because there is being an accommodation to you know the situation of you know the review standards you know kind of being a moving Target and the different people that have been involved with the reviews and but from the homeowner side you know I can definitely say that uh you know it's frustrating on their end because I hear about it right you know they they come to me and say hey don't you know what you're doing you know we're getting these comments and when are we getting these comments and you why why aren't you turning them around in short order and as you know there's you know because of the changing requirements not requirements but just the the different perspectives on trying to review the the plans over the past three years um you know more specifically over the past 12 months you know um it's been difficult explaining to the clients so you know if we can move together in the the manner of trying to improve the review process and be a little bit more specific maybe just to the FDA elements that are specific spefic to a project and the the consideration that's that's going to be helpful and as a you engineer record for a lot of these projects you know I'd be happy to provide some sort of input you know with regards to you know things that would help streamline things but I think the pre-application process is going to be the major factor here because at the end of the day you know anybody that's had a business or anybody that's used accountants you can take the same set of books to five accountants and you're going to get five different results well you're going to take the same design to five different engineers and you're going to get five different designs so the pre-application process in my opinion is going to be the most helpful piece of the puzzle that'll help the town right so I just want to lend a little bit of my outside experience and perspective as a engineer record for a lot of projects within the town of OA grow and uh you know let you know that I'm available for you know assistance in streamlining the process thank you for your com thank you for taking the time to be here tonight we appreciate that no problem I do have one technical question though sure for for Lisa um you know because I I agree with the the Swale the common Swale and a drainage easement or common ditch but from the technical side how do you ensure that you know if you're an if your site is a net exporter you're not negatively impacting that adjacent property that's that's why we have to consider all the adjacent properties too yeah yeah but if we have that common ditch and you know say you know it's just a half a half a foot difference from one side to the next you know and we're pushing you know just say from north to south you know obviously there's going to be a flow during you know the storm event that would impact the adjacent property but I was just kind of curious it popped into my head I I think if we could try to in in the pre-application you know have this discussion where we could maybe even um communicate with the adjacent property owner I mean we've done this before where we have to share you know I need a 10 foot easan on your side and we need a 10 foot easement on the other side or five and five right and the the person that's not even doing the improvements maybe doesn't even realize or even know that that we need to work together to share this this ditch yeah and so maybe maybe we need to reach out to that to that adjacent property yeah okay thank you again yeah we actually have two properties right now that we're having those issues with that are in permitting that we've told the developer engineer that you need to get an easement from the Jason property owner one of them is similar to what what um Derek had said that they have a common ditch in between them and since half of it's on somebody else's property and your water or this residence water is going under that person's property technically it's going under that person's property we're requiring to get an easement and we have another project where the majority of the ditch is on their property until it gets about 150 50 ft from their property line and then turns and goes completely onto somebody else's property and I'm like okay great it's a shared ditch because obviously the other property owner is using it but you would need an easement from that guy to or girl to tell them to to let them know that you're going to be using that and that your water is going to enter their property so that way and and and those two prop both of those I think we both of those applications came in right around when I started here in December it is now July and we're still waiting for them to reapp resubmit those those two projects because my guess is are having problems with the adjacent neighbor B Maran miles good evening Council Maran miles lockah haty Groves um swells and ditches aren't going to work between Property Owners because you have Property Owners saying well now that's vegetation who's going to clean it out um years past everybody was responsible if they wanted to drain their property to come to the water Control District before we became a town get a permit to get a drainage um Culver to drain into the canal I don't know why that's not happening now um and it should be the homeowners insurance I'm going to go back aways homeowners insurance sto covering uh flood damage in policies that threw it onto the state for coverage years ago people were supposed to hold their water onto their own property to replenish the aquafer number one um you if you built a house built a Barn built whatever you wanted to either you dug a pond or you brought fill in to around that building you didn't bring up your whole property if your property flooded it didn't flood your building if your property flooded it didn't matter because it didn't flood the building whether it's a barn whether it's a house whatever it is the fill was brought up high enough that it didn't flood and God forbid loo Kobi bus everything's going to flood and it's not going to matter whether somebody does a topography study or not okay so um when you get a permit whether it's a barn or whatever it is now you got to put especially a barn you got to put a Floodgate in you have a tack room or a feed room nobody wants a Floodgate coming in you're want to keep the water out not not put a a gate in there so water can leave the building you want it to leave the building open up the door I'm sure people have double doors or single doors on their tack room and their feed room but the main purpose of that is to keep water out not invite water in we don't have uh moving running water here we need our water to percolate slowly um I'm going to run out of time here additions to a barn that has existing floor elevator already you're not jacking up the addition up here you're keeping it usually the same elevation the same uh uh level roof the same floor should not need a flood plane study uh dirt land trees everything around those buildings should not need a flood plane study if you have five acres 3 acres 2 Acres your inch per square inch or whatever it is over here should not impact your building over here I'm going to leave one last thing it's a big difference between um inconvenience of rain for a few hours versus adversely impacting residents in the town thank you thank you for your comment any more Val Missi where do I begin Cassie sui um first of all thank you for taking this up um me making a lot of issues and kind of helping out a little I'm sure because I'm like the big complainer um lots of things went on and some issues came up but I wanted to get these out first some of the minimum requirements so first of all the whole thing is about minimum standards for our residents and I have a real problem with our ordinance when you have words like um in the event of a conflict between this ordinance in 17555 um any ordinance is more restrictive shall govern I have problems with those words I have problems with the with the section on interpretation of our ordinance considered as minimum requirements liberally construed in favor of the governing body that bothers me the residents Run This Town it shouldn't be construed in favor of the governing body the difference should be given to the residents and making it minimum stand boards so I I applaud you all for trying to take this but there were some issues um I wanted to bring up some things I want to make sure that when you do reviews you look at the minimum requirements um I've had a couple meetings with the um staff and with our Engineers um we need to look at uh that I know that they discussed the 10year one day that was the minimum of the three um waivers so uh nfip recognizes small developments large developments small developments are single family homes on um you know lots that are you know separated they're not you know developed which would be most of our properties large developments are defined as 50 Lots or 5 Acres or more so by the mere square footage of our land we're thrust into the rest RVE zone of large developments which is a subdivision with the small developments in the nfip manual there is sections for uh less restrictive areas when when trying to determine your base flood plan elevations so they recognize that the Bas flood plan elevation through an engineer can be quite expensive especially for large you know large lands and recognize they recommend that but they recognize that there's other ways like just walking through so one of the things is we need to have our town redefined where we are defined as small projects and then that would thrust that information in CommunityWide a exemptions they should be put in place and then we need to look into some of the requirements like the drain door and removing water does that actually apply here um the one thing that was brought up was um construction area thank you for your comment I didn't get any of it in so you'll be getting 500 emails okay basically NFI expires September 30th so they will not be able to write insurance plans unless they get a consu resolution okay um let's go back Council and let's look at item number one of the proposed short-term suggestions does anybody have any comments or anything they'd like to elaborate on that or we would or is the consensus to give Ingenuity um authorization to move forward with those suggestions phis yes I love the meeting with the residents in the beginning 100% And the fact that they're G to take a look at the pro uh subject property I think is really important in this St so yes so you you're okay with all of them okay Laura without the batteries um yes very okay with um the engineer and the and staff to go through these you know proposed shortterm items it it seems a lot of the bottleneck is you all provide this checklist of milk bread eggs and these Engineers are like Mayo mustard ketchup uhuh done is there any way that the town or you or staff can say to you know Mayo mustard ketchup no $100 penalty or you know iack you know some you know Ponder on that and see I think milk bread eggs needs to be part of this pre thing you know and if they say well what about apples oranges and prunes and they say no milk bread eggs that's it all right you know again I mean as far as I'm concerned you have my okay to you know just push on the Slackers and say you're killing me you're killing your customer you know do it right the first one okay and and I like the idea of um brought forth by Ingenuity and um especially the onsite um uh walking you know of the uh of the property so you have a better understanding of it uh or a a zoom type meeting if you can't walk the property and um you know move this thing along um I also like the idea of a dedicated day where you uh bring in all of the uh the parties involved and uh you know have a discussion going yeah because if they have group meetings I mean something might apply to somebody else and they might hear it Robert your hand is raised yes thank you madam chair Marge Marg done yes Mar yeah a couple of things the maintenance of property I think is critical needs to be done ASAP there that should happen like immediately to be able to bring in 20 cubic yards per acre per year I had property up in semal county and that was their rule um I had five acres and each year you could bring in basically one dump truck per acre so that that's important because I know at least one person that is going in front of the magistrate tomorrow and that's exactly what they tried to do and you know now the magistrate uh you know what I'm saying no you got to get a flood play even though a small part of their property is below 176 it says if any part of your property is in the flood plan which is below 176 then you have to get a permit for any work anywhere on the property so I think that's critical to implement that as soon as we can because you know people do it we maintain our properties but now we got code enforcement following dump trucks around taking pictures so now more and more people are going to get caught you see the number of fdas in front of the magistrates is going to increase if we don't have this type of uh ordinance how quickly can we Implement that like or resolution uh no we will have to do a first and a second reading of an ordinance that'll have to be drafted by our engineers and attorneys but I think we could probably look at having a first reading in September yeah yes gives you month try absolutely well even even Palm Beach County isn't an ordinance or resolution or a law it's a policy it's a PPM C can we instruct code enforcement to Robert's Point can we instruct code enforcement that if people are just trying to bring in 20 cubic yards to try to maintain their properties that not to code enforce them I would think that that what we what they should ask code enforcement person is that if are are is that fill that's being sent to these properties being dumped in the flood plane okay you can't have that right so I don't know if that's the case or not with these Cod we we ask our Engineers on most of the code cases anyway so maybe what we do is we just have the engineer look and see if it would fit into the new wording you know we can maybe try that and I'll double confirm that with Tanya are you still on the phone I'm still here okay maybe tomorrow we could talk about how we might um early Implement a policy for Di Minimus um topography changes and fill up to X cubic yards because our code our code States this so you know our code would have to be changed but if there's a legal way to do it as an interim measure I would look to Tanya to you know see if we could work it out people do it every day it's just no yeah no it would be much better to correct save a lot of effort over here I'll say that yeah no we want to do something to that end but again I'm not going to be an attorney today I'm going to let Tanya tell me tomorrow maybe engineer wants to be an attorney no we have I couldn't take the pay cut we need uh we have an ordinance one of the suggestions we had made is so there's three ordinances that were passed in 2017 in regards to the flood plane one was the Ordinance one was the acceptance of the nfip and the other one was for dominous activities um that for whatever reason that ordinance was never codified in mun code that's what the that's what the suggestion that we made about codifying those three ordinances two of them we need to to make sure they're fully cified the third one I don't think made it into they pass at the same time that's the kicker yeah there are resolutions they were never codified and one of them talks about the Minimus I never I saw I found it I kind of briefed over it I didn't read it and because obviously we're working on all this put that in together okay so I think we have a consensus clearly to move forward with your number one suggestions okay now we've kind of like seeped into number two so let's continue this and see do we have a consensus to continue with another two to verify and codify those resolutions um to do even a policy which might be quicker um for the dominous activities so that people are not being put into code that are bringing in bill tomorrow um you know um just um we did I did not state that we would like to have the land owner just fill out a one-page form to say I'm going to bring in so many cubic yards on such and such Aid David that's fine or just something I'm going to dump it here and then I'm going to put it in my stalls or I'm going to not flood plane sign the bottom we'll put we'll we'll keep it by address and so in two years they're allowed to do it again sees them a week later someone's bringing in another dump truck and is it going to stay at 20 no we're talking about doing more than 20 talking about every year not every year or every two the county has 20 cubic yards every two years count per acre I I'm pretty sure it's but I'm not sure one yeah so we could look at different sizes different amounts yeah it's gonna have to be but no matter what we would like the landowner to come in and fill out the form so that we can keep it so that code enforcement if code enforcement sees somebody in a shorter time frame bringing in more fill then that's a problem but if it's after say two years I'm just using that because the county uses if it's after two years then just come in again and does the town have anything like you have uh announcement of a project coming forward uh that can be put out there to let the code enforcement know that this is legal the they've gone through the that would be the form yeah that would be the form just like we have the the Exotic vegetation removal form that we have it's for the same reasons for that way when one of our res property so that a code person would see it is what I'm say Well they're supposed to they're required to keep any permits are required to be kept on the property anyways whether they vegetative whatever that you see on a future project I don't know about those but no it's on a box on your property but they would look the code officer would obviously look it up but I think that what I'm hearing from Robert and how I'm feeling is that we're looking for a the most permissive policy that's within reason for bringing in Phil because we know that we are an agricultural community and that you know just like I said on my horse from 20 cubic yards didn't even touch filling my stalls okay didn't even touch filling my stalls so that they now need to be after five years my mats need to be pulled up and they need to be remed 20 cubic yards is not going to remat my it's not going to remat my St game it's not going to redo my stall so you know again I think what our community is looking for is some way to take into account what are the practices of the community not the illegal practices nobody's looking I don't think to flood their neighbor I really don't believe that anybody is maliciously trying to do that but we have to have some reasonable practices for an Agricultural and farming community and 20 cubic yards every two years is not is not it's not even close to reasonable I'm just telling you right now not even close Okay well and a lot of residents need to get out of the attitude that I can do whatever I want I own this property you know and they you know the the good old boys you know they've got to learn to come and get permits okay has her so I have a question uh about what the last thing Cassie BR brought up was where are we described as a town are we described I I think that was a good point are we what I know we're rural designation but that you know what I think she was saying is because of our acreage we've been dropped into like a Westlake and which is zero L lines so why should our FEMA be the same as theirs so we I agree that we need to reach out with whoever designates us to say hey we're different we're unique we grow food Here We Grow animals we we are Agriculture and you cannot put us in the same category as something like Westlake as far as the FEMA so who designates what we are regarding FEMA I would refer you to page 72 of the side which is the questions posed by the resident um and which I think a lot of your answers a lot of your questions are answered this question in there answer what he well no I want to know who we talk to about getting that done no there is no like there's no designation there is no rule I mean we might be a rule rule designation but the sugarcane fields of The Glades comply with the same rules that the town loock a Groves does and it's the building you got to keep in mind it's the buildings that have to comply not the acreage so you might have five acres with your house plopped in the middle of it your house has to be out of the flood zone and then your property has to retain you cannot dump water so that footprint that you created by putting your house there has to be compensated within your property if you flood out the if we have a heavy storm that's why if you look at this map and like especially you go through the acreage you can find everybody's house based on where the high prop high spots are on the properties because the FEMA doesn't care if you flood your property they don't care if you turn your your property into a lake um it's the structures it's the insurable property that is what they're concerned with so when somebody does their flood development their their site development and they do their design their design is based on keeping the structures in on the property above the BL base flood elevation not the rest of the property Wellington designs their paddocks to where all their paddocks are dri attention because when I worked over there we used to get complaints all the time during a heavy storm my horses are in their paddocks and they're under under a foot of water oh yeah because that's what your engineer did they designed your paddocks to be your dried detention so during a flooding event your structures in your barn stayed dry and your paddocks got flooded so you wouldn't have to have a pond okay well I was gonna ask one more thing I kind of is this on number two or no we're still on number two Robert anything else for number two uh we can't hear you I think you're muted okay sorry and the the maintenance and this is a maybe a question for staff somebody comes in to remove Exotics when you remove Brazilian Peppers MCAS when you're removing the roots and everything you're leaving sometimes huge holes and how are people filling in those holes I mean they' have to bring in pH is that come up at all during that permitting process when somebody says hey you know I have an entire one acre of Brazilian Peppers that I am pulling out by the roots is there any conversation about yeah I'm going to bring in 10 loads of dirt to fill in those holes and it it's something that I had not heard before but you know whenever I pull out a maluca I fill in the hole I don't leave a hole there so I I just don't know if this should merge into that you know it's not just about equestrian maintenance you know it's about any activity that creates a hole also being I can't think of any other one but pulling out an exotic so yeah yeah even like a pine tree yeah a dead pine tree leave a huge hole it takes sometimes to get rid of all those roots so I just wanted to bring that up as part of the maintenance Thana would like to answer you um Robert in the County's code or the County's process with respect to the 20 cubic yards in two years rule um they say it's for developed properties in order to maintain things like Landscaping so that's where it your your question would be answered it would be issues like Landscaping maintaining your driveway your equestrian rings so it would that would be included if you're not changing the grade it shouldn't matter and there shouldn't be a permit you fill out a form you're taking app Brazilian pepper and you need 20 cubic yards just using that number they should not be allowed to they should not have to go through an extensive permit but then you can't fill your stalls with dir you have to bra right right but g go for a bigger number so we're going to go for the most allowable number okay all right so we are then all in agreement that item number two is things that they will move forward with with particular urgency on the Dom Minimus policies for maintenance of of agricultural properties agreed agreed yes okay Robert agreed yeah okay number yes yes Madam chair okay number three modifying our Town's drainage code anybody have any comments on that phis um I think Lisa was talking or it might have been the female lady about looking at the verbage from South Florida Water Management and easements how would we haven't been very easement saying the word easement to anybody in this town makes them think they're going to give up their land so I think the easements to share ditches probably needs to be explained do you know I think a lot of what was written on here could be addressed in the pre-application meeting right right so right yeah so a lot of what we said here in the pre-application meeting we could you know encourage utilizing existing soils and ditches for storage that can all all of that could be addressed in the pre-application meeting there's there's one area there's one line item in section 13-35 that doesn't that is not very clear and that's with respect to Perimeter perimeter elevations right we would like to look at that and clean that up that's that's really the only thing that we would like to come back with some clarity okay are you done um I have a question I'm not sure where it goes but somebody that just wants to add two stalls or something like that without raising their elevation say you're putting in a couple of stalls you this is the highest part of my property I don't want to get an FDA I don't want to have to do any of that what is the role on that you know putting in a shed or a barn a small barn and not changing the topography go to number four and how does that affect the land owner minor modification permits Dom Minimus that would be a Dom Minimus okay so you come to the town you tell them what you want to do they send a b building official out you so or you bring in what a survey um it would be just like any type of application building application and the size of it would be the minimat or determined they would be free they would be a courtesy thing you're just thring out a thing and that's that well it's still a permit no still a permit but you wouldn't need an engineer spend $250 for a permit or $50 for a permit to have somebody come out and say yes you can add two stalls or shed correct is that I think it has to it has to be on record you would need something on record a dirt waiver I have to come in and to bring in the loads of dirt just trying to just have out of form right well then why wouldn't adding two stalls be just filling out a form because you're building something okay right' Al and you're getting a waiver alter elev may I think most people would be good with that coming in paying a permit and not having go through the rest of the crazy stuff now I am Robert you were next my di this yeah thank you one key thing on that is that two stall barn can't be in the flood plane you go to my said adding on to an existing that already was not in but everybody needs to learn my my gead where it identifies the flood plane it's pretty darn accurate I got topographical surveys that it's it's it's right on but um Lea made a comment about the perimeter how they treat the perimeter and I've heard a lot of talk tonight about uh shared drainage easement which uh is a great concept but the way the ordinance is written now when it gives an elevation Lisa the only way to meet an elevation is to raise the land so that word elevation has to be replaced or something changed um I think if you're moving forward with the development and your choice is either I I I can only think of two choices either I burm it or I get a shared drainage easement with my neighbor I don't see any other choice in controlling the water flow at that property line where you jooin a neighbor's property help help me understand if there's a different option but those are the only two I can think of so the way I'm looking at it is it says site perimeter at that elevation 25 year 3 day but if it's already at that elevation we don't need to burm it you just make sure that your stuff is going yeah staying on your side so I think it's an interpretation of what that first code or number two whatever it is yes yeah thank you for that clarification I agree you can be way above that can't impact your addent property yeah you done Robert my other question yeah no I another question on this easement we're talking about land owner and landowner easement for water flow what about um Town property to landowner property we have these big perimeter ditches that could be a source of uh storage for the town in a large event where the canal fills up from uh a situation somewhere else that maybe doesn't fill up that property and there's available storage on the property does the property owner get an easement from the town that says hey your water can come on my property if you need it and in that case you know you wouldn't have a control structure blocking your water from going to the canal if you needed it so I just want to understand that concept of of working both ways not only with your adjacent Property Owners but also with the town who's also essentially a property owner there with the canal Randy is gonna answer your question thank you yes I think that goes back to the flood playing compensating storage where you're looking at a pre versus post runoff making sure that your existing runoff and proposed runoff is very similar as well as the storage and I if I'm not mistaken in that that section of the town code that 1035 when it goes through concurrency it's wanting to make sure your pre versus post runoff is the same and if you're not increasing your runoff the water Control District allows you to tie directly into the canal without a control structure okay and we don't need some easement agreement with the two properties because yeah the c-51 Basin requirements require you to have compensating storage flat out no questions that is uh you know the number one thing you have to do no matter what you do uh most properties do have drainage easements amongst the property owners something that could be added to the code or to the permit criteria is an ownership and encumbrance report to get a a verification that title work is being done for these boundary surveys that are submitted to verify whether or not you have a recorded easement on your property or not most of the easements are found through through warranty deed descriptions which are few and far between that'll list everything compared to the ownership and encumbrance report that you would get doing title work on your property we don't mandate that though it might not do it's not a bad idea you know if you do a TI if you get a title policy you can see all the incumbrances all the historical easements will come out on a TI search yeah but I thought we already did that with Southshore didn't we do that townwide what were we doing with Southshore roads what we were going to do what we're going to do is we were going to go ahead and do title searches to get easements and um we decided not to take that approach that was several years ago um we can always do title search okay Laura I believe your dim light has died we need to do something about Laura's light because she changes the battery every meeting and it doesn't make it through a meeting so I don't know what um this is some this is something for the engineers to ponder um I I support the idea of utilizing existing swes and ditches for storage in conveyance um kesar is more than familiar with our drainage box project that we did a few years ago and there are a number of residents Who provided the easement so now we have this lovely Swale and these wooden targets for things to hit and I know two Property Owners Who provided the easement they're both elderly and they're at the point where they don't maintain around the posts so you know and again I keep thinking about them like okay so somebody gave an easement but you've put a town construct on a private piece of property who's supposed to maintain it who's supposed to replace the ballards I'm not saying it's a bad idea I'm just saying it's another element in the stew there that needs to be thought about dealt with uh typically on easements the Perpetual maintenance elevation is of the property owner because the property owner still owns the property even though they conveyed easement to the country so even though just like the people who didn't maintain these historical ements in between for the last hundred years then we still have the same problem we're chasing our tails and the Ballers are an eyesore at this point I don't think they really do anything well I believe the well drivve slower or roads are what 20 now but most of them most of the balls I've seen Down are the corner ones yeah but you know again just something to ponder I love the idea of the Swale and the ditches I love it but we just have to make people get along I believe the ballards primarily went in um by the previous Public Works director when or prior to the roads actually being paved and the lane line striping on the roads as the the town standard has been for many years if you're on the opposite of the canal side you're supposed to pull over and yield right away to the canal side trap I mean that's just instinctive memory I'm sure out of the majority of the residents in the town and that was causing damage to the swales which is why my understanding from speaking to Larry in the past why the ballards went up in the first place so if people aren't pulling off the swales anymore because of the striping and the paving that could be something to consider stop future or removing and it's almost a double edged sword because we have a rain event now the swes are mushy if you take the ballards away and somebody's going to yield and they pull into the Swale now we have to get them out of the Swale but anyway Ponder okay so it sounds like we have a consensus for you to move on with um everything in item three there does doesn't seem to be any um issues of rewriting the perimeter requirements and uh and looking at the Historical ditches and seeing what you can do to restore preserve whatever those all right moving on to number four minor I I think we kind of already covered this I don't know if anybody has anything else add is that basically di Minimus activities like putting in a shed offence adding two St an already existing Barn that's not in a flood plane that that should all be allowed with a minor fee and come in and get a a waiver kind of thing are we we're all in agreement on that correct yes okay so move forward with that as part of the process um and then the last thing is to shorten the review process and evaluate the review fees I'm not sure that you need our instruction on that of course we want you to do that but does anybody have anything to say hell yeah the whole reason for this meeting I believe does anybody have anything they want to add on that last one other than yes please do it yes please do it expeditiously okay do we need to talk about the long-term ones or those are all part of the resilience study they're just things that are going on you want to discuss them or no no we don't really need to talk about them but in that case my friends we are talk about any of the things should they be W or I I we I believe we already discussed the code cases and what we said if correct me if I'm wrong other council members what we said was that some of the code cases were egregious ones that were um continuous uh problems and that we as Council don't really have business being involved in code cases um because we would perhaps have to be judges of them and we left it up to the discretion of our town manager to decide whether they were egregious or not and to wave the ones that were not believe that she sent us an email where she waved a number of them so that's what that's what I remembered does anybody correct me if I'm wrong anybody else remember something different than that so that's already been addressed asked and answered okay okay all right then in that case we are ready to adjourn ladies and gentlemen thank you so much for your presentation everyone all of your hard work