##VIDEO ID:Qt34nLN-MBg## the best whater say I'm reading sorry what you yes we are the community discussion portion of the September 18th lah HED you goes Town council meeting will now come you ready could all please stand the fedge of allegiance of the United States of America and to the repic for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all moment of silence thank you everyone I have a council member danowski here council member Shore pres council member manilia absent vice mayor Herzog here mayor Kane Town manager Rya here Town attorney cvia here Public Works director gan pres okay so this is the portion of the meeting from 600 to 6:30 where we have an open discussion this is some a time when Council and or staff can directly answer questions about from from people in the community on non-agenda items so do we have anyone who wishes to speak now uh Miss babington yes please come to the podium yeah if you to the podium please state your name and address um and and let us know what you'd like to tell us um my I'm sorry that that's not is that mic on I don't think it is can you can you hear me yes much better thank you sorry okay so my name is Diana babington I live at 13254 casy and um I have been contacting the board since 2019 about a lot of problems on the road that have um been about drainage and uh about a year ago in September I got in front of Francine and um she did a great job actually fixing the the be the ability to travel on the road and they've removed a lot of trees and I feel like that has thank you so much that has been a huge Improvement for Kevin's fan and we have been able to go down that road with much more ease however the biggest part of that project was supposed to be to get the water moving and we are having biblical Reigns and it's nobody's fault but it's it's the world we're living in and so what's happening is because the culs still remain unopened um my barn is flooding my Arena has been flooding since 2019 but you and I know that we have other issues that we're looking to address possibly if if that drainage doesn't stop when the Cs are opened I have some videos I took um before I got here if maybe somebody from the town Works wants to take a look at them of what it looks like actually right now um my barn which is probably an eighth of a mile off of the road flooded this week stalls flooded that has never happened it's getting worse and worse and I don't know how I'm I'm going to maintain living here if this doesn't change I mean we can't live underwater and it's it's kind of scary so I'm just looking to you guys to find out like where are we with Casey Road and opening those drains and and getting the culverts fixed prur that would be you before you respond I just want to note for the record that um council member manil is present um so we're in the process of fixing those those culverts um currently we're working with the other residents to reset their um carts under their driveways that's the biggest problem is you know over the last 30 40 years that that neighborhood's been there people have been just plopping CTS wherever we have a lady down at the end of the block whose CTS two foot too high and she refuses to move it so the I signed an easement remember I gave you guys an easement for mine and I thought we were in the process of getting easements from everybody well the easements aren't the problem the problem is we have they have the resident because the residents are responsible for the culverts in their driveways um we can't go around and replace all the culverts in the in on the whole Road the residents have to do that and So currently we're setting up a benchmark of where the the elevation of those CS the neighbor you have to the east of you uh came to us we gave them their elevation we're waiting for them to do the work I mean that's I know it's probably you don't not what you don't hear but that's I mean so much we can do but that can't that can't that can't be it because we like I have a picture the water on my road is damning onto my property because the man next to me claims he put a permit in that is yet to be approved to clean his drain or his cul so I mean it cannot be left up to the residents because if you don't have a flooding problem you have no motivation to get it fixed so so I have no idea like how the residents are supposed to fix their problems when it were the dependent on other residents taking care of it for them when they're not having the problem and it again it becomes a a code issue you we have our code enforcement department working with the residents we're working trying to work with the residents but we can't go on people's property and dig up their yards and change their call rtel because those are drainage SES in the town does typically does not maintain drainage SES that's part of the problem in this town as a whole with all the subdivision is that the residents AR taking care of their own SES we have a draft rewrite that was taken to council once with regard to nuisance flooding and the ability of the town to come and fix the drainage problem and then do an assessment to your neighbors um the first draft was not accepted we have some changes to it the second draft has been prepared um Mr tvia is here so we have that scheduled I think in either October first meeting in October or yeah so in the next 30 days or so that'll be coming back to council where flooding in a neighborhood can be determined as a nuisance and the town can come in fix it and assess right that is if it gets approved by Council um May I so um couple of years ago we had pretty bad rains like this and we have a resident on Brian Road and um and F Road on Brian road which is in between fsam and F Road and there are several properties in between fome and frro that are flooding right now so he happens to be an underground utility guy he sent his guy in our Canal asking as asking for the previous Public Works director for help he put his guy in the canal and blew out the culverts that road drain like that so I asked our then Public Works director where's our tool to blow out our culverts oh well uh well if it's under 25 Grand you have the you could go get one so to my knowledge he never got one he never looked into it so I think this is something we need townwide if there's such a tool that blows out the coverts we actually we actually looked at a contract we have it on the list of things to bring forward it would be a piggyback contract with a company that does it for other districts and towns and we would bring that forward it that got to be cloged they've never been done well there's a very high level of facilitation in the culs there's no question about that and then you find your collapse CTS also in the process that is the concern that they will collapse when we clean them but I think that we're working towards doing what you and I have talked about doing before right and I and I'm looking to the town's people because as it retired lawyer there's actually an action called public necessity and if if this continues that people are going to be in the way of other people's rights then that's a lawsuit because I'm I'm telling you like I I'm not going to live like this I'm not going to live with my property completely flooded because you're telling me that it it's up to my neighbor to want to fix my problem for me this is a public issue this is not a private issue and there is a Doctrine and there is a legal doctrine of public necessity and this is public necessity guys so you need to fix this may I say one more thing um I spoke with Francine about these roads that have already come in years ago during the water district and put swes in so they tried to do the drainage and I said you know we're out Paving all these roads if this was done and it wasn't maintained let's get in there let's get it fixed and then leave it up to the property manager at that point to maintain it but these are not excavators they are not people that under that your our drainage expert so we look to you and you know this is just way too long overdue and I'm sorry it's ended up in your lab but this was on M the previous Public Works director's priority list so so in the last week and a half I've probably fielded about 40 different calls from residents on about 50 probably almost every Road in this town right now we don't have the staff we don't have the budget we don't have the equipment to go to every single Road in this town and do what the residents should have been doing since they bought their house no well there are drainage marcela's one example Marcela has swes all the way down it they're all overgrown is that the town's responsib there has been huge miscommunication with the folks that pay the taxes in this town and and public works and staff for many years okay I think we've got a good handle on it now I think you've got a good crew please don't tell me you need more employees okay I don't think anybody expects you to go spread out townwide and fix everything at once but you have to start somewhere you know and and I would say these roads that already have been had the swailes put in that's a good place to start and we are working on repair fix but again when you've got 20 blowing out the coverts the coverts on Casey I personally have gone into the hole into the into the swales and look through them they are clear it's not the swes problem to eoad and to fome the properties are too low the property that is not true I personally have done it I have gone in there listen excuse me everybody miss bton visit with me if you don't mind we do have something to bring to council where we can this forward so I want to say that I'll the videos at the end we've discovered through our FDA that filling in our historic drainage is not the answer okay and you all need to know that if you move in here and you're a new Resident and you fill in that ditch that ditch has been here for a long time it's going to affect your neighbors so please make sure you come to town hall before you fill in anything our water in this town it's been a town for over a hundred years and every time we monkey with it we screw it up so we need to get this town flowing again thank you thank you Miss pton thank you Mr Green Eric green Eric green 15189 it on uh at 15189 Scott's Place uh I'm a member of the CT group and uh came to our attention that the budget eliminated or left out a budget item for C in the most recent budget I was just informed that that money uh wasn't used for 24 is going to carry over is that is that correct that is accurate you have something like $4,000 that You' have it used for the last couple of years and so that's carryover money and then if you were to need additional money we would certainly vote to give it to you because we certainly value the service that you okay I would hope we would vote I would vote to give it to you but we would certainly bring it up if we needed to but when we were budgeting and uh looking at you were you were budget you you had leftover more than you usually get budgeted every year how's that sound that make sense yeah we don't need a lot but uh when we do need Supply is resupply for the trailers for for the C group that's our main need I think it's what $4,400 or something like that I think that's what's available but also don't forget we do ensure the trailers correct and um certainly if you wanted some additional paint or something like that we can help you with that as well so you know that yes we try to help and also we're working with you as you know on a new Emergency Management plan and we're going to have a a um what is it um a run through what is that called you know the pre-storm event yeah I forget what it's called a it's a dry run but I can't remember the name of it Richard would know an exercise right a tabletop exercise that's what they're called and Eric I'm sorry we didn't communicate that to you we we no worri so is that scheduled sorry about that is the exercise scheduled then not yet not yet okay thank you thank you thank you for your comments Mr Austin Robert Austin 746 hide Park decid to write it down because I hate public speaking I get nervous um last meeting the council is trying to figure out how to manage or out of control RV issue we are a single family rural residential neighborhood not a KOA not River Ranch Style with trashy trailer parks not a winter stop for Northern rvers everybody was up and arms about the high-end RV park that I agree due to its number of sites and their prices for our community that has little to no amenities as it was proposed was not a good fit for us $200 a night for as Fort Wilderness pricing without Disney or Fort Wilderness amenities so Virginia correctly stated what will replace it in 5 to 10 years if it fails but I listened to everybody complaining about how much more traffic would add to Southern I couldn't help but thinking so what southern in 10 years or so it's probably going to start resembling 595 in Broward as those sod farms between Fox Trail and Arden are developed in communities we're going to have thousands more cars on State Road 80 we'll most likely start seeing overpasses at Forest Hill Royal Palm and even seminal Pratt with side roads for Town access but back to my main point we are already have well over 200 campers in the heart of our town who are here every year round and those people drive up and down our letter roads all the time I totally disagree with more than two campers on any size lot even 10 or 20 acres two campers for horse season that's it and you didn't even specifically tailor it to the equestrian people either just like when you check in at a hotel you show your driver's license so they know who you are when you check in a campground you show your ID and they even want to know how many people are in your camper because most Parks now charge for more than two people in a camper the town should know who's taking up temporary residents in the campers in our town and why they're doing it as currently currently written a 20 acre Nursery with ad can now have 12 winter sites for anybody to rent those loopholes are going to cause trouble and people like myself who currently want to see the equestrian people have a good season and make money doing it will eventually get to the point where we will join the pretty decent amount of residents who want no occupied campers in this town the nice lady who I appreciate is trying to follow the rules and do things right but there's other people who don't follow the rules and actually my biggest complaint is people are buying in the Groves expecting to rent sites for trailers in unoccupied or occupied now you have the couple who are trying to bully the council in the change of their zoning they turn their property into an industrial park they're renting have trailers all over the park the their little Nursery there the equestrian season is a plus having a couple sites to offer as the icing on the cake not something you should need to pay your bills but since you the council are trying to do something to eliminate the really bad aspect of the yearround camping I will wait to see if this new Pro program is a disaster too last meeting I almost lost as I listened to the dumbest complaints about not wanting to register your personal camper with the town are you going to want to know how much booze I drink what really I mean they're trying to get this issue under control I have lived here for almost 30 years and I've had a camper the almost whole time I will gladly register my personal camper and you can come see spec where I store it too we need to get this major problem under control I don't like HOAs either but so many of our residents have no respect for their neighbors that we're going to need proactive code enforcement look at all the people who leave for the summer and don't have anyone cut their grass the guy right here up f Road just cut his started cutting his grass I only have a little bit more if you're if I was selling my house people have to drive by that house and look at it and probably affect my price of my house the house just west of fulam on collecting canal with storage containers and a year- round trailer that now has its own custom porch and Christmas lights if I was looking for a home home near that I wouldn't even make an offer these rude selfish people have no respect for any of their neighbors I also listen to astonishment about how we are the lowest paying town in Palm Beach County only two people with 5 years and everybody else with two years less this is not something to be proud of and these same people who look at me like I'm Pro development just because I understand that a financially healthy town has a nice commercial tax base and we need to let them have Southern with reasonable designs Etc but still be business friendly if you want to love it and leave the heart of lockah hat alone we need income from Southern these same people who complain about commercial and Southern are also the same ones whining about their taxes going up it really it's like banging your head against the wall trying to reason with them if we had more members in a council with foresight we would have blocks grov Zone B to our West I still believe our shortsightedness about not pursuing and annexing the land to our West and the slug at property is probably one of the worst missed opportunities is going to be a huge regret if our taxes Skyrocket because of our small amount of commercial on Southern doesn't produce enough tax revenue to support the town and staff hopefully I'm wrong but I would like to see our staff paid well with good benefits to want to stay here and not have an expensive revolving door of employees thank you thank you for your comment Miss Harding Harding 3479 the RO the flooding is a problem now it's not 30 days from now the last meeting they limited truck loads of dirt saying we can't raise more than an inch I understand that I get it so if my neighbor raises his land 15 Ines and all his water goes into my property he's wrong right what about if the town does it the town raised the side road to my property 15 Ines they walled in that side of my property that side of my property is now a third into it a foot to a foot and a half deep I'm not even in a flood zone and when I had called and Lexi was great she's trying to help me out when I called they came out looked at it they said well because she has no drainage I didn't need drainage I have pictures before and after literally up half my Cal if yes we all get rain we get puddles they go away they dissipate in like 12 hours 24 hours at the most if it's bad last year we had 50 Ines of rain this year we have 35 in I never had this problem I have pictures of my car going down the road at a slant like this where the bottom is almost touching the edge that's how high they raised the road I didn't think anything of it they widen the road in November and then they put 15 in on it and sometime after February and the reason why I know that is because I was like what happened to the road and I had pasture borders now that pasture now my fences are getting destroyed it's a foot and a half underwater and I can't have any horses in it it's dangerous it's unhealthy and I don't understand it and I was I never had a problem with the drainage due to the height now of that road I'm walled in I have no place for my water to go um and this is why it's flooding and they told me that I didn't have drainage well I didn't need it that road was pretty much level with my yard line now it's this much higher than my yard line and then I was also told well they maybe did it in error okay well when they're doing roads don't they check out what could fledge you don't they check out what might cause you a problem well let me tell you something I'm going to lose my I'm trying to keep my composure cuz I've been here for seven years now now and all I'm doing is losing money I'm probably not going to have a season this year because I can't have anybody come to my barn because you can't you have to take your shoes off and roll your pants up to your knees to open the gate to walk in okay and I have borders threatening to leave because I can't get it under control and then I bought a pump and been doing the right thing as usual I it doesn't pay here I called I said where can I pump it can I Pump It guess what I can't pump out my yard no you can't pump it into the canals I'm like well where's the water going to go anyway if I have drainage into the canals right but now I can't pump it so one lady came here and said God brought me to lockah Hatchi I think God's telling me to leave because it's been nothing but I want to live and I'm tired and I work very very hard and I just I don't know what to do and they just telling me that I have to put in a Culver I can't afford a Culver I didn't cause the problem the town caused the problem so just like my neighbor would have to be responsible I believe the town has to be responsible you raised my road 15 inches and I have pictures pictures of my car like this going into my driveway and I didn't say anything about it because what am I supposed to know I'm not you guys I'm not the expert until we had all this rain and it's 15 in less than last year and I did not have this problem and if anybody has any suggestions of what I can do to maintain and stay here I am open to it because I'm done I don't even care about your RV rules anymore because guess what I'm not gonna have a season because I can't I can't even put my horses out my passes are getting destroyed my fences are getting destroyed my driveway is getting destroyed the car underneath hits when I go in I don't even know what to do anymore and honestly I wish you all the best I appreciate you all but I'm done so somebody's got to help me help me with this and don't tell me this is my fault you rais my road 15 inches without any consideration of what thou would cost Miss Harden will you come see me tomorrow please please I work fulltime that's fine I understand just give me a quick call I'll try you know I've already missed like three days because of this I have two anhydr horses that I can't put out in the coolest pasture because of this and I have to run home from work three to four times a day to rinse them off so they don't die I have to lock up the donkey and the Pony who are used to running free because of their Huffs because what this will do to the horse's Huffs I'm destroying four pastors because I can't use two three of my big pastors it's a mess it's a nightmare and I'm really trying I really am and I tried to follow all the protocol I bought a pump but I can't pump are you kidding me please give me a quick call tomorrow I will thank you thank you very thank you for your [Music] comment Miss Ruth Menor um Ruth mener uh 13161 Casey Road and I'm here to discuss the um the condition of Casey Road um we have lived on Casey since 2014 um and we were we were across the street from our present house um and really we have never experienced the water like it is now there is um a huge problem with the water draining off this road um you know kind of the beginning of the year last year and I think it was March April um we did get a letter from the town regarding us replacing culbert on the on the road um because they were preparing to to pave the road um you know they started to put all the road material down to um prep the road to be paved um and I kind of asked one of the gentlemen that was there um kind of supervising the job I said so what about the culverts and he kind of said well we've kind of changed our mind what we're going to do they put down that road grade they kind of rolled it out and it did bring the road up and know quite frankly it was better um especially when we're getting all of this rain but if we don't have a comprehensive plan for draining our water off of the road it really does us no good to pave that road all of our properties are are just holding a whole bunch of water and it doesn't matter if somebody puts a covert in one's place if if it's not engineered so it drains towards the canals I mean you know there there if somebody does it in appropriately or doesn't do it the right way they're just going to create a ponding poing effect on other people's properties we we can't just as an individual go and put a CT in that's it needs to be engineered it needs to be a comprehensive plan of how this is going to happen so I guess I'm here to ask where's that comprehensive plan what are we going to do so that our properties are and our swes are engineered so they drain to the canals I can answer this if you'd like first of all I want to apologize that over the past several years a number of roads were put down without proper engineering and drainage moving forward with our new road plan we are trying to engineer and put in drainage prior to laying down surface and you'll see a lot of that work has been going on throughout town in preparation like on grer Lane in 161st of clearing things out and making sure that the drainage flows first before the surface is being put down just makes common sense and you are correct about that in my opinion um but we do have a lot of going back to what was done and trying to repair the damage of um what has been done by um just throwing down surface um and I don't know the plan uh I wish I could give you a definitive answer Francine do you have a plan well Richard's going to speak and yeah we do so all of the roads that are on the paving plan this year have a plan for fixing the CTS the residents were notified that they need to reset their CTS and there's were in the proc we in the process of a permit to where it's all it has been engineered it has been figured out what the elevations are they have to contact the the town and um all most of the residents that I have spoken to we have told them that you've got to come in you got to you know it's not it's like I think we're looking at like $100 for this permit and it's for our time to go out there and set the stakes and say your your elevation goes from here to here talking about a Calvert across the driveway um we're not building the Culvert down you know okobe Boulevard um so it's just I mean it's a simple 18-inch cber goes under the driveway they're typically 20 to 30 feet long um and we go out there we set the stakes elevation stakes and say Here's your elevation you're foot down from this this is where the bottom of your cobbert goes in front of your house because obviously there's a slope and so in the center of the road the center of the block yeah but again I think what you're saying is the same answer that you gave Miss babington which really isn't an acceptable answer which is that you're what you're counting on is for each individual to do the right thing and that's not gonna happen we know that you know five individuals may do the right thing and two aren't going to do it I think what Miss Menor and Miss babington are looking for is something of a more comprehensive neighborhood plan and I think maybe um like like you have done with grouper and 161st this is what needs to happen as far as drainage before we can lay this surface down you need to go to some of these roads or all of these roads that were laid in the last three or four years in the frenzy um and you need to look at what needs to be done and put together a plan and perhaps have neighborhood meetings or Street meetings you know for lack of a better term yeah have Street meetings and get all the residents on the street together and say this is what needs to be done on this street and let's come up with a plan as a group to get it done with the town and the residents participating together I I don't think I don't think the answer of each individual needs to do the right thing is the right answer because it's just not going to happen the thing the thing the thing is the thing is is that that like I was saying earlier there's 40 roads in this town that need the exact same thing you're speaking of correct if the town wants to entertain paying for that through because it's all the roads it's not just Casey it's not just Gruber it's not 161st it's not I mean I still probably have another few months on 161st and the reason 161st is in the condition it's in is because the water Control District never maintain the swes at all um which is why we're do where we are fixing the water control district's failures on Gruber the M all we did is remove some trees and clean the area up a little bit that's all the extent of the work we did there we didn't do a complete overhaul of the drainage Casey the issue is is that you got residents who put their culs at the wrong elevation if the town wants to entertain paying for that I have no problems doing that work well we we know the money's not there I think the residents know the money's not there but I think what what they're asking for and what I'm asking for and looking for is more of a collaborative effort into getting together and at least making a plan and coming up with a plan yes it may not be able to come to fruition tomorrow or even next week but at least if you know there's a plan and you know that we're moving towards ress I think that's what the residents are looking for if if if I may speak for you is that there's something happening and at least if people as individuals know from the perspective of an engineer what needs to happen well then they can start being part of the solution too I believe that's I believe that's what they're looking for and I know that you're stretched thin and I know you have a lot on your plate but perhaps Ruth also if you can connect with Francine and try to come up with a plan for for I don't know that I can speak for all of the residents on our road but but you know a number of them it is a big enough problem so yes we are willing to be the part of the solution um and but I I it it needs to be comprehensive it needs to be engineered you you you know one person that puts it their covert at the wrong elevation is going to impede the rest of the drainage for the rest of us and it just makes no sense to kind of Patchwork what we're going to do it has to be an entirely comprehensive plan especially before we go and lay down pavement I mean that's like kind of insane to kind of pave a road before we have actually fixed the drainage problem I agree with you 100% um and I I guess I guess my big my big fear is okay you know last week I don't know exactly how much rain we got but it was seven plus inches where we were in three days um guys we're in the middle of hurricane season you know we can easily have a storm that brings us double that and you know that's a extremely scary thought um I I just don't know but you know it we we have to be solution based I'm happy to host a Casey Road neighborhood meeting at my house I you know I we want to we want to have a solution okay if you could get in touch with frantin yeah let's go real quickly just just real quick I just want to make everybody aware what's going on do we have any more comments we have one more okay so it's 6:34 this portion of the meeting is supposed to be over so I certainly I'm would allow you you and you to speak and our last public comment but if we could keep it mine's going to be short be great thank you I also would like to see a solution that's why we have developed um some changes to our code of ordinances I have shared them with Miss babington tonight I'd be happy to sit down with all of you with Richard and we'll come up with a plan that we can bring your street forward when we bring forward the item for reading and that way we can go ahead and get everybody on the same page on how it would work and we'll treat it like it's new I talked to our attorney real quickly um we'll treat it like it's nuisance and that way we can go ahead and get it done um and since you're willing to participate and be part of the solution I think we can bring it forward to council that way and see if it works he fellis you had something to say so I think if you were to waste your time and look back at the records of the oldw district if you could find them uh you'll probably find that these people had permits to put their CS in the wrong way okay I guarantee that right there was no elevation it was perit to put say is maybe they're not the current homeowner maybe it was the previous homeowner but I'm sure somebody attempted to do it correctly so at this point it's become a townwide issue because it's not just Casey flows into the other roads behind it and Marcel flows into Raymond and it is a townwide issue so you as the Public Works director is probably have the hardest job is figure out who you're going to help first all right but I want to say something I I'm in a way I'm glad this happened because wake up we've been telling you for the past three years you cannot pave without drainage okay you cannot pave without drainage and it's pave my road pave my road vote for this one pave my road oh and by the way we're not going to grade it in the meantime okay so don't be fall for this crap all right election season is every year in this town every year we have election and then your roads your canals your drainage your infrastructure is put on the should we do this should we do that how many votes am I gon to get if I vote for this okay so our infrastructure is a mess our infrastructure is old our pumps are old we don't have the we that shut our canal off to be able to work on this this has all been ignored over and over and over again and several of you have been here for your flooding problems and and keep coming in front of us and embarrassing it hasn't been fixed so that is our main topic today I would say town of locks ay Groves we need to fix our drainage before we do anything else before we pave another road and I'm sorry for all you people that have been waiting to get your roads paved but we have a serious issue here with drainage and the money needs to go to drainage thank you Marge was Robert oh Robert was pleas thank you madam chair yeah let's talk about where we're going all those roads that were paved I don't see anybody out here complaining that they don't have drainage on a paved Road you know Marcela Compton Bryant paved they were paved 12 years ago 10 years ago so anyhow so moving forward with this permit process Richard you already said that you B over backwards you provide all the engineering to a landowner for a driveway CT you tell them the size of the covert and the elevations so they just have to pay somebody to come put a culbert in now Francine how's the permitting process working on this it's $100 for the dri it's a $100 for a driveway culbert excuse can I can I have a comment can I make a comment yes it's a it's a back and forth exchange there has really been no Comm we have we have had one letter from the the city and it was like taped to my gate regarding that was like in March regarding the permit for the Culvert I call or I talk to one of the gentlemen that was supervising the job out there and he goes oh we're not ready for that we've changed our thing so we really haven't had any communication all right let me finishe because we're talking about how we're moving forward okay and our play Works director said right there it's a $100 permit fee and then he provides the elevations and the culbert size are they all 15 or 24 pretty much 15inch plastic culbert 20 foot culbert cost I don't know $450 for a 15inch 20ft plastic culbert so right now you're at 550 for a permit in the the piece of pipe now you got to hire somebody to put at the right elevation my point is you may not be aware of the process but Richard has worked on this process of providing all the engineering and elevations it's a $100 permit so it's not a huge expense is my point we're talking you know 550 Plus somebody to come in dig the old one out put the new one in with all the respect robt I don't think that's what they were talking about is complaining about the cost of it I think they were talking about that there needs to be a comprehensive plan so the entire neighborhood or or subdivision not so know anybody complain about spending $550 put a is it needs to be that everybody engineering Richard does the engineering he wants an engineer he's he's the engineer yeah so it's getting everybody to do it is the key it's it is com comprehensive you are you are very right it is comprehensive and you know if if you know there's some of us who may have signed an easement to make this happen it is you know but there's there's there's no there is there is no comprehensiveness to you know if one person signs an easement and then no one else is asked to do that so then H how do we make this happen I I don't get it you know we have to I mean there is really got be you can tell me where I can put my you know and so here's here's part of the problem so we put this Culvert at at a level it you know there are some people that have literally no swell in their at the front of their properties they can put a covert there all day long but that water is not going to flow because there're they don't even have a Swale going to that CT so it it's not just putting coverts in it's literally engineering the swes that take that water where it needs to go you know from The High Point hopefully the low point at either fulam or F road so that I mean you know it it unfortunately the answer just isn't a simple answer of lets everybody put coverts in right thank thank you for your comment and please meet with Francine and let's try to get something done comprehensively March was there something else you needed to add yeah um in the past we've done um special um funding for um culverts and and we've done it on a 5050 basis you know Town picked up 50 uh% and uh the residents uh affected picked up the other 50% is there any way that this problem could be resolved by doing the same thing I mean we we did it with Paving some streets in the town wanted their roads paved and they they agreed to pay 50% of the cost and the town would pay the other 50% it's not something brand new we've done it before with other types of needs and this sounds like very urgent need that we need to uh bring the residents together and see if they are interested in the concept and it's an assessment Mar thank you a special assessment or something it's an assessment 10 year usually right Le let's consider this a priority I know that we have a lot of other priorities but we're bumping this up to the top of the Lista say I agree all right we have one more comment you said I when we're way over but we are what we are so miss miles we have to address what we have to address y good evening Council Maryann miles B um I don't know which sore spot to start with first um the drainage or the roads um the paving this has not been a small problem just in the last couple of years I have been out here for a long time whether you put Paving on the road if you don't put Paving on the road you're going to have a water mess you're going to have a mud mess we put drainage engineered drainage um on the roads before we paved them you know what happened you can go down some of these roads now the water doesn't hit the $115,000 individual culverts that we're put in because the road changed when the paving was done so that creates another mess so why put the drainage in first you put in the cart before the horse you have to put you have it doesn't take an engineer or rocket science you're asking people for am I saying something funny because I don't think so you're blaming this Council and several members are blaming Council of the past two or three years of putting roads in haphazardly that is correct okay well then you can take the budget today and tonight and not give anybody raises and not do the roads and work on the drainage and how you going to pay the people if you don't give them raises because they're going to leave so one solution or blin game doesn't fix the problem it also doesn't help the town that FEMA comes in and says you can only have an inch to raise your property up or an inch you can't go past the inch we are a unique Community we don't have zero lot line homes well we're going to really flood the next door neighbor even though we do flood the next door neighbor sometimes I don't want to say deliberately but just because and I hope we don't have a hurricane but this isn't the first time we've had rain like this in the 35 years that I've been out here we've had it before we've had water messes on the road whether people give an easement or not you know before I was on Council we asked just for a little bit 3 feet just to get some water off the road and get it onto their property and everybody says steadfast no why we're not giving anything just make it clear so the water can move now I agree with a lot of people if if the road was brought up and it cut people off we have to do something with it back when I put my dra in it was an 18inch covert that we had to put in we had to have a drawing we gave it to the water Control District they told us the elevation that we had to put that pipe in and they're absolutely correct if you can't get the water from the back part of your property to the front part of your property because your elevation is wrong what are you going to do dig a six- foot ditch down at the end part of your property so it can go into the canal the elevations are the problem but also I think theme is the problem because again we have a unique community and if we can't bring in Phil to solve a problem how do we solve the problem that's sore stop spot number one um a couple and I I'm going to make this as short as I can a couple meetings ago it was decided that there wasn't going to be a referendum or any other vote to uh resolve Council issues in the event of an Ethics violation or an ethics complaint that went beyond um in other words somebody hiring an attorney and the town reimbursing that person that council member for their fees um you are guilty in the ethics commission until you prove your innocence I'll say it again you are guilty by the ethics commission until you prove your innocence and sometimes it's a long haul and they don't want to take oh I did this this this and this once they stick you and they got you or they think they got you most Council people wouldn't have a choice than to hire an attorney and pay now each council member represents and I'm not going to ask this question because I know it's the truth each council member up there tries to represent the town of lockah hatchee groves in their decisions to the best of their ability so if each one of us have done that no matter how long you've sat up there you should be covered if you were have gotten in a situation that you were accused of but it took whatever it took monetarily wise cuz the town man the town attorney cannot represent you so the fees that were the cost should be represented and should be paid for by the town because the person has done their job and they had to prove their innocence and if that took getting an attorney to prove their innocence or have the case dismissed the town should pay the fees the town should be respons responsible and I know in certain instances the what went on in the past several years Francine it was under Francine's threshold to pay those attorneys costs and I think it should have been paid I think the members should have been paid regardless it shouldn't have gone through referendum it shouldn't have gone in anything except the council members you guys can get caught up in the same thing just ask yourself questions and I know Phyllis is shaking her head hang on yeah you got turn me in all the time but I don't laer up whether it doesn't go there or not and I know of instances where it could have and it didn't and that's not the point we're we're not going to get into personal attacks arguments that's what happened do you have anything to finish up that's it I guess great thank you for your comment okay I just want to clarify I didn't have jurisdiction even though the dollar amount was below my threshold I didn't have jurisdiction I did try to see what the policy was with regard to the league of cities covering it and also you know I um did the research with regard to other municipalities and that's why I brought um a revised policy to the council and we took a vote and it's done okay so let's recess this meeting for we we're done Val yes ma'am okay let's this meeting for just a couple of minutes for a bathroom break and then we'll start the regular Council because you're G have office [Music] I City 2 we got a little another okay I know because I'm close to the because every [Music] [Music] yeah you you have a video ch J you better get a good got where is all right soon as B comes in we'll get back to oh no soon as we get our attorney and our will go back to order one of your tissues thank you so much I think planers World Palm Beach can you find out yeah thank you they're doing a beautiful job on Southern Boulevard they did didn't they I think that's do it's do on Southern it's do yeah that's do I don't know we took out all our trees in front I mean there's trees in front of the plazs I don't think that's all do I think that's Ro well well when we were are we ready when we were forming though we wouldn't take over Southern Boulevard because it required you know legal uh work my truck is flashing okay Val are we ready Val yes okay meeting will now get back to order um do we have any additions deletions or modifications mayor uh staff would like to request to remove items number two three and eight from the agenda okay anybody else what staff moving two three and eight thank you Laura do you have something I'd like to pull four for discussion but we didn't get there yet okay thank you thank you that all right anything else anybody else okay so we're going to have a motion to approve the agenda as it is pulling items two two three and eight and moving item four to after where item eight used to be are they getting pulled from this completely two three and eight are being pulled completely four four is moving to where eight motion to approve the agenda with the modifications of moving removing two three and eight and then moving four to the regular agenda place of be all in favor I I oppose passes 5 to zero okay do we have any public comment uh we do not have public comment under non-agenda items but on the consent agenda we do have a comment uh regarding item number one okay want to go ahead with that yes mayor uh Miss Christina wallac hi good evening I'm Christina wac and I'm here to represent my husband Chris wallac and Gerald de wac at the property address 1742 a road our family has owned this property since 1992 and we're for removal of five native trees on this property um we have waited a long time to move to lock Sai Groves and we're looking forward to building our foundation for our family and building our forever home here um I'm a lockah hatti native and lived here my entire life I know the lock Hatchi way of life and we want to keep it that way we're only looking to remove five native trees that are in the area of the driveway and the house site all other native trees will remain on the property so that's less than 1% of the trees on the entire property we want to keep the property and maintain it as a natural Florida area um we know the importance of native trees as my parents own a native nursery and lock a for the past 40 years and we grow native trees please let us move forward um in building this home and removing the five native trees so we can proceed thank you for your time okay so Val if you just want to read the only item that remains on the consent agenda which is this item that was just commented on for us and then I think we have a council comment go ahead yes mayor uh approval of resolution number 202462 a resolution of the Town Council of the town of lahi GR Florida approving removal of specimen trees providing an effective date okay phis you had something you wanted to say yeah I'm just curious um as to how close um to the driveway the original driveway the tree is and um how close to the house are the trees because I think we've already got something in place oh um who's the Mr FL so it's beyond the 20 the 50 feet from the house and the uh no it's it's it's within 50 feet around the house right and and it's it's within the area of the driveway so I thought we have an ordinance that allows that them to do that we do and and but we also have an ordinance that says every time you take out a specimen tree the council has to approve it okay and are they agreeing to replace those trees somewhere else in their yard or uh they don't have to because because because of where they're located now yes that's right we're approving a waiver Laura you had something I think philis hit on it so the trees are within the Too Close boundary so they're coming to ask for the permission to take them down but they don't have to replace them because these trees are within the two close boundaries that's true then why are they here because the other section of the code a code that says that we have to vote on it so we have there's another section of your code and this is how the whole code is so that's why we're trying to fix it so can I have a motion to approve the consent I'll make a motion to approve item one on the agenda consent agenda consent agenda can I have a second second I'll favor I opposed passes 5 to zero just for the future section 87 is is scheduled to come back in front of council section 87 is where the language is in there that require specimen trees to come to the council I think that we're modifying it so that administrative approval um is allowed particularly in the case of waivers um May I um sure the Because by the way the insurance companies are starting to come down on people if the trees are too close to their house and stuff so this is kind of out of our viw anyway which is why we Grant a waiver okay moving on to item number five final budget hearing public hearing je do you want to go into item five or do you want me to read the statement into the record pursuant to Florida State statutes 200.0 65 Pern 2 Parn d and e the following announcement must be made the town of lahache grow Florida's rolled back rate is 27048 the percentage increase in property taxes for fiscal year 2023 2024 is 10.9% and the town's millage rate to be adopted is 3.00 Mills do you want me to go into 5A and read the title into the record consideration of resolution number 2024 72 a resolution of the Town Council of the town of lockah Groves Florida establishing and adopting the final millage for the town of lockah haty Groves Florida pursuant to the budget summary for the fiscal year 2024 2025 in accordance with chapter 200 Florida Statutes as amended providing for severability conflict and in effective date Jeff is there something you need to say or can we make a motion and take a vote okay let's open up a public hearing on the item we do not have any public comments on 5A but we do have a public comment on 5B okay so can we have a motion for 5A we need to make Robert has a comment statement the Robert has a comment yeah I don't support this three Mills we've already increase everybody's garbage fees by 25% um I think we need to roll it back to 2.7 um it takes $172,000 to roll it back 10% which would be 2.7 I think there's over a half a million dollars just thrown into CIP stuff that that isn't designated specific items just big numbers in there emergencies um small projects and we have um reserves for emergencies I don't think you should have a a capital Lem it says emergency repairs so I don't support three um we've already hit the people in the garbage and everybody that called me said please if if we can reduce it at all and I think that is 172,000 we could find really EAS to have zero impact on the people but save everybody a little bit of taxes thank you Robert Laur I keep looking at this number of 10.9% and I apply it to you know my my own you know what I need to deal with um and the the thing that sticks with me the most is that in 4 years we have increased our people cost by $1.3 million and I uh I I but we've reduced our contract costs by that much that's what that's yeah some of it dovetails but I don't think it's a hard one three you know it's step but we have reduced the contract costs I I would not object to going less than three I I really wouldn't so I think what I'm trying to spit out as I hear you Robert I think there are some places where we can trim just a little more I'd like to com i' like to make com go ahead go ahead if you wouldn't mind I would like to do it before you start in on disagreements and the whatnot okay earlier this evening in the community conversation we heard from people how they would be willing to do a 50/50 there's no room for 50/50s if we drop the millage that's the first thing I'd like to say and the second thing I'd like to say is that [Music] um the millage was advertised at four Mills and I imagine that you may have heard from some residents but we did not get any feedback here we did not get any outcry of phone calls we did not get any outcry of emails you see that nobody has made comments on the budget at any of these workshops except for what was on Facebook we heard the same comment in here as we were told was on Facebook so um I understand that there's a concern about growing number of employees but we did eliminate contracts we have before we added the additional crew in public works and before we brought on Code Enforcement and building we have less employees than the management company had and the district had so I mean if we're going to look at the total employees and the scope of work that we're doing today at the tax rates that we're doing it for I think that you see a tremendous change in what we're getting done so employees are what do that work um and I am not here trying to get money for employees I'm here to tell you that we're working on the water control plan that takes into account all of the different things that have not been done in a 25 year period that have been recommended to do we heard about building roads without drainage it doesn't matter whether we build roads first or build drainage first we have so much drainage to do and only half of the roads have been addressed whether they're going to get paved or otherwise fixed so it doesn't seem wise fiscally to um roll that back when you haven't heard from anyone in the community in a significant way and if it is with respect to the garbage assessment then you know that $887,000 if you ask us to do a reserve on the budget we'll put it in reserve in the general fund off the three Mills and you can reallocate it to the first 5050 or whatever it is that we're looking to do I just do not encourage um dropping below because when we started the budget before we made Cuts we suggested that you prepare for the future by adjusting um the assessment rate or the millage rate because we are using the reserves in the solid waste fund and we are using the reserves in the roads and drainage fund and we have been for the last several years using all available monies in the general fund to um subsidize those other funds so I would be irresponsible if I didn't say this and the other final comment I would make is is that we are really aiming to address all of the comments that come into the office recently a conversation was that we would have committees meet more often we have more committees now meeting more often we have more things coming through our office it is impossible to expect to get the same level of service with less people or less time so you know we're doing doing more and um I think it's happening at a great pace and I really discourage you from reducing the millage since we did stay at the same assessment rate okay phis you were next and then margel 2018 all over again all over again not gonna vote for the just suggested military to to run the town in 2018 how many you couldn't get out of your driveways it was worse than your drive your backyards were worse then than they are now okay you couldn't get down B Road you couldn't get down a road you couldn't get down C Road Todd and I and some of the neighbors were pumping the roads out so people could get into and them so I'm going to tell you something the pave my road people you're not no road is going to get paved in 2025 okay and possibly 2026 if you don't give us the millage to be able to run this town properly because we're going to take it out of the road Fund in the pavement fund and we're going to put it into the drainage fund and start fixing some of the infrastructure that's been ignored for the past three four years all right that's what's going to happen so if we do not get the millage to be able to run this town properly which is three MS which is not raising anybody's taxes it's been what it's been for the past many years nobody's raised it we will be able to run this town properly and we will be able to continue with our our cips but if we lose that millage then you guys can kiss those paved roads goodbye because that was an election Ploy anyway and this is an election ploy we need Mar [Music] rules Mar yes um there is last year the uh Cola and the raises were held um we did not give anyone as far as I remember anything correct okay and that added to the issue this year not that we're doubling what we would have or should have a given last year but we're making it fairer than what what we agreed to last year and hopefully we can hold on to uh the the workers that we have because we're giving them an incentive to want to be here the other thing is I took all of the numbers and I calculated what would the impact on me personally be with my exemptions and a things and everything and it didn't amount to that significantly high of a price I mean it was less than $500 difference with the figures proposed thank you okay and I also think that we need to be prudent in thinking forward for the last couple years as a town we've been spending enormous amounts of money um we had huge federal funds come in they're all gone we spent the fund balances down to the 25% I think one's actually at 27% but the other one's down to the 25 cent which is the fgfoa the state recommended reserves so there aren't reserves to spend because they're at the percentage they need to be at so if we lower this millage we will be crippling the Council next year and perhaps for the year after so um I'm not sure where the change happened or I also have gotten zero complaints and I get texts and emails every single day about staying at the three Mills it's what's been done for the last several years so I'm not sure why the RO back is being considered at this point um other than to put us in a very precarious financial situation moving forward um the 3.0 Mills is what the faac recommended and as I recall this Council in total was very in support of what the faac recommended just a couple of weeks ago so I'm not sure where the change in opinion happened but um that's pretty much all I have to say Laura after looking at the final compilation of numbers at 3.0 in my opinion there is room to trim so if you divided 172 by ,500 it comes out to about $110 per 1500 is it a lot no [Music] um I just keep looking at things that I think are over budgeted um I'm allowed to change my mind and look at things I think if F had more of an opportunity to look at the numbers they could have done some better trim [Music] um I'm still not clear what positions are filled I am not clear what positions are going to be granted more hours I know that somebody has resigned but again that's all caution detail um I just think there's room to trim and I do resent the fact that council member manilia is howling that this is a re-election employe it is not this is me looking at numbers it's my opinion and there is something in our guidelines where you as the mayor should have said corre gone on I would have stopped it I didn't hear reelection just heard an election Ploy but I didn't hear a re-election Ploy but you know what was inferred but anyway looking for that ethics letter it I'm sorry FR you something to I do I appreciate the idea of change your mind I appreciate the idea of doing a finer tuned review I would suggest staying at the three Mills as we have been since 2018 um because the C are only going higher of the things we need to do and in that you wish to see Cuts then pick the number that you would like to have cut and we will go ahead and carve that out from the budget but stay at the three Ms and that way we will come back to you and ask you for money for 5050 or ask you for money if we go over budget on something um I won't bring back Personnel matters because I don't want to put anybody in a difficult situation but I will bring back um any of the items that you know and and I think we've just heard tonight that there's a number of un I won't say unanticipated but unaddressed Financial issues that are imminent in the neighborhoods around the area so cutting back that millage will leave no room to try to address some of these issues that we've just heard are really critical to not just one but more than one street if we were to cut back the Mills there wouldn't be any room to help these people there there just wouldn't be there would be nothing to help these people if I could have a couple just a couple Qui abely um first of all um and and excuse me and yes Laura you do have a right to change your mind I'm just asking you to change your mind again and reconsider because we've just heard a number of issues that really are Urgent in our town right now I'm sorry go ahead well we point out again um that one of the difficulties that you all have to to deal with is that you um set your assessment rates prior to um your final military uh we had advised you that you can set the assessment rates at a three to2 simple majority vote um when you get to the the millage rate um to stay at three Mills you would need a super majority vote of four to one um so I I want I want to just point out that that's the the law doesn't allow us to um work the dates so that you can do them simultaneously um so you passed the the uh uh the assessment rates and you would have needed simple majority to get the the same level of revenues now you're in a situation in which you need a super majority um the super majority um rate um if you go over 2.83 three um you need a super majority which is four um and yeah so I'm sorry Chris is a slight difference three votes um you could go up to 28587 um mhm and that represents about a $97,000 um reduction in revenues yeah I got it so you you've got that the other the other issue that you have to deal with is when you reduce your your millage rate in one year um you have a compounding effect of uh somebody coming in and realizing that maybe it has to go to to 3 um 14 in this circumstance you needed a super majority to to get to 31446 to go above that you needed a absolute majority of five nothing when you go down you put yourself into a further bind because that number to get it back up to three um if a future Council wanted to do that it makes it more difficult um I'll leave it to you with those caveats um so you understand where you're at there's one other thing on that and that is the conversation of balancing the millage and the assessment so that the commercial properties pay more of the cost than the Residential Properties almost 50% of our Residential Properties are classified as a exempt so they are not necessarily bearing um as great a cost as they might in another Community the rate is the same as it was in 2018 and anyone that has a homestead is limited to a 3% increase in their value so with no change in um the tax rate the maximum increase that anybody that's homesteaded could have is 3% and a homestead classif classification a homestead exemption and a Bonafide ad classification is what keeps most of the tax bills down aside from your great governance and leadership as I noted to you in an email earlier this week we have not gotten calls and stampedes or visitors at our meetings with regard to the budget and we advertised one full Mill higher than our current millage that means what people have seen in their mail is way more than 3% way more than 10% it's like 35% because it was four Ms so one mill higher is what they saw on the bills that went to their house and no one came in here I'm not saying charge four Mills I'm saying stay at 3 Ms because it allows us to be able to have the platform for a different equation in the future that allows us to better leverage the value of commercial properties Mr CTS is correct you start at a lower starting point next year and if the issue is fine-tuning then we will take the $225,000 and put it into um a savings account that we come forward and ask if we can use you know so but I just suggest heartily not to set the next Council back in terms of setting the millage rate next year okay Robert you are next Robert was next yeah maybe you know the reason I got the phone calls and others didn't is I sat up here and tried to save the taxpayers the the homesteaders the people that live in this town money and didn't get support and this is an opportunity the last opportunity to try to save them money you're talking about on a $ 4.23 million budget we can't find $997,000 if you went down to the 2.85 and what seems to happen if you looked at our third quarter financial report you'll see our spending was at 90 95% in the third quarter with one quarter left of what we budgeted but it's no big deal because we had the additional income throughout the year from other properties coming online and paying additional taxes so it wasn't a red flag it we're still going to end the Year good and then another point is these projects continuously roll over every year and we don't get them done we budget all this money for all these projects at the end of the year we rolled what $400,000 from last year projects that didn't get done it's been continuously repeating itself until staff can prove that they can do everything that they want to do that they ask Council money for in a year I'm not willing to to get that extra money thank you Robert phis um we have folks in this town that um since the incorporation have repeatedly wanted it to fail and unfortunately they had some seats on the Das and our town let's try to almost failed in 2018 because the they we could not get a consensus on the deis to vote on the millage to run the town and the town was in Dire Straits and right now we're in a torrential rainfall we have people that need assistance this town is right to the penny with the budg and we're not asking for any more we're asking for status quo so we could build our resources to maintain our town I'm not even talking about building new buildings and all that I'm talking about maintaining what we have maintaining our drainage this FDA took the wind out of our sales and out of everybody's pockets you know in in the town and so we have been working to try to make that an affordable entity for people to come here and be able to do their site plan and be able to afford to live here and by not keeping the millage at the three Mills we are going to maybe have people that the town might be able able to assist now they're going to have to get an assess they're going to have to pull out of their pocket so this is not benefiting anyone in this town lowering the millage it's going to hurt the town as a whole it's going to hurt everyone and um I knew this was going to happen today because we originally were going to go to the four and a half 4450 um assessment and may I ask you a question town to attorney can we bring that back the assessment yeah can we bring it back tonight I don't think so no no no about that we both think that that's that's done that's set it's 450 it was 400 no we voted on 450 and it got advertised as 400 you're talk Solid Waste you're talking solid waste the account assessment 200 and unfortunately there was an error made and um so we can't make up for that money there no unfortunately not no that's that one's done so I hope everybody's really this is probably our most important meeting all year and our maintenance of our town is important and we don't have unlimited funds we only have the funds that people can pay in their taxes and so make a motion I'm uh for the three Mills and by the way I got one phone call when somebody thought it was going to be four Ms and I explained no hopefully it will just be the three Ms we're not raising the taxes and they were perfectly happy with that so would you like to make a motion I don't think I should make this motion I think somebody else needs because I'm I'll make a motion Madam chair for the roll back rate of 27048 Mills second for second all in favor all I all opposed opposed oppos three to two want to try again somebody I make a motion that we accept the uh figures as presented uh in our U discussion for this evening the um the 3.0 second all in favor I I opposed okay three to two so we need to kind of find a place in between guys that we can be I'd still like to go ahead and make excuse me a m I'd like to make a suggestion can we take a moment's break I'd like to speak with our attorney okay not right now they already called for it we called for it before it's up to them if they want to open it up it's my phone I just need to make sure it's not my mom's caregiver that's all yeah I apologize and I would not have that up there other than the fact that my mom's 90 years old and for caregivers sometimes text me issues I apologize for that I tried to turn Maybe [Music] how do you do that a couple different ways there's other places besides people [Music] absolutely you're right I share that everybody building two three I want talk about it we good yeah and other thing okay but we're not gonna talk about that she just found we're all right let's come back to order all right anybody want to try for another rate I have a statement I'd like to make okay go ahead I suggest that we take a dollar amount that everyone is comfortable with let's say $100,000 an ear Market as necessary savings leave the millage at three Mills and that $100,000 I have to come back and report to the council where I got it and there you go we will use that extra 100,000 or the hundred of cuts to fund some of these Community projects that we see are Urgent and also on a 5050 the 5050 is designed for a balance of assessment and non-assessment revenue so if you go 5050 with just the assessment everybody's paying the assessment if you do 5050 out of the general fund for the town's 50 then it's not part of everybody else's drainage assessment so I would urge you and let's even do that call it $100,000 for 5050 okay can I have a motion for that does that meet compromise to you Robert no no way I mean if I can speak Madam chair sure um yeah we're talking $98,000 on a $ 4.23 million budget we're not talking 2018 when it was probably about a $1.3 million budget you know the budget's four times and like I said third quarter we were over 90% spending but it wasn't a big deal because the money comes in we had somebody here tonight it's building a new house you know we've got new commercial coming online so all the the revenue is going to continue to increase just because of where we are and what we have so I'm not worried about a shortfall at $98,000 and you'll save everybody money tonight not still cost every everybody money and then stick it in a slush fund that gets blown by whatever they choose I mean it's crazy there's there's over there there's lots of money here that can be cut 2.2% is what 98,000 is on $ 4.23 billion do I don't think it's fair to say blown when we're talking about helping people in the community but that's okay phis you had something to say saving a money um no I think uh Chris I think is on online is he still online um I just wanted him to to weigh in he was unable to make this meeting in person because um he had a conflicting meeting down South um so I would just like them to clarify uh what the the rate is that a majority of you can can pass so clearly understand that and there's there's two parts to to this this is the this is the millage vote if once we resolve the millage then you go to um adop the the budget and figure out if there is this $97,000 shortfall where it would come from my recommendation would be that you take it from general fund reserves and pass the budget um as recommended um you do have sufficient um general fund reserves to fund the budget H giving up the with the $997,000 it'll you'll still be over the 25% level that you have set as your minimum level um and you know I'm I I just don't want to sit here all night and well nether we're not getting any we're not getting anywhere so what is the rate it's 2.84 five 875 is that what you said Chris are are you there can you he me you sound like Darth Vader but we can hear you yeah so majority mil would be 28587 2.85 three votes okay that's what you have that's correct no I'm not um May I sure go right ahead so I am in favor of Francine's attempt to try to keep the M status quo so we could keep the give the people of this town some relief there is no magic money and what I lost my train of thought earlier what's today's date September 18th hurricane season is not over till November we've gotten our worst hurricanes in Florida in the later part of the hurricane season so I don't think Mr Shore can guarantee we're not going to get a massive hurricane by the end of the year and God I hope we don't okay but there are many reasons why we should keep status quo keep our three Mills it's just really important to this town this town is in no shape to go backwards no shape to go backwards we're we're in a momentum moving forward let's work together anybody have a motion make motion motion with can't I'll make a motion for 2.85 87 millage rate and we're still at 25% Reserve so we haven't changed anything there's extra money already there to cover this $98,000 it does affect you next year of course but right it's talking about crippling the next Council that's what that's what that's what we're talking about is that next year you're crippling you're crippling the people moving forward you can't guarantee any of that yes you can they're building it right now no it's all coming online you can't guarantee anything you don't know what's going to happen we're talking about crippling the town moving forward that's what you're talking about doing and stopping all the progress that these people came here and begged us for tonight I'll make a motion oh he made a motion second all in favor I I oppos oppos oh did we do public comments yes we did it at the beginning I'm Sor three to two I mean fails 3 to2 so I'll make a motion to approve resolution 2024 72 adopting the military for the fiscal year 2425 um at the three Mills following the second public hearing on September 18th 2024 with the addition of Francine withholding is $100,000 help me with the verbage to set aside $100,000 to use for Community projects such as 5050 um drainage programs essential projects such as 5050 drainage sure second all in favor I I iOS I opposed okay fails three to two rancine if can you make your offer 125 and I'm in I'll make it 150 done okay make a motion do you want to make the motion Laura sure um I make a motion to approve resolution 2024 d72 which retains The Mill at 3.0 with the town manager's offer statement state statement to create a community um Rel fund Community Relief Fund of $150,000 well said second all in favor pass is four to what thank you okay let's move on to B uh do you need to read that Valor do give me one second to finish reading out this motion okay please thank you for that time we are going to have to have Mr Wallace recalculate the required statement to be read onto the record oh it's okay we're not going to but when you get to the budget bar you'll have to talk about this 150 again because you want to put it in the budget so did you read it you need to read it B needs to read B go ahead consideration of resolution number 20 2473 a resolution of the Town Council of the town of locki girls Florida adopting a final budget for the fiscal year beginning October 1 2024 and ending September 30th 2025 providing for severability conflicts and an effective date okay so now we need do we have any public comments on this item yes Miss Standish three minutes use everyone else's talk fast Virginia Standish 15410 North Road um obviously budging budgeting goes on year round and you have to start somewhere start with the basics first I want to take time to thank the town manager for ensuring that c has Insurance um it would be nice to see a line night Chris could you please silence your mic thank you it would be nice to see C is an award-winning Community Emergency Response Team working with Town it would be nice to see them at least have1 to $250 as a line item so they know they have their some minimal basic cost items they have to replace it's just a positive reinforcement to them they do seek funds outside um a question I have is yes you increased everyone's salary I would ask Town managers to please review policy performance ask people to perform at higher standards there are some employees that need to improve the way they interact with the public out on the area so we ask you know no I'm not complaining about giving anybody money but let's let's step up to the plate you're being paid well let's do the job well um let's get rid of the Agri Tourism Committee it's just a few small dollars spent there Florida State Statute already protects you I applaud the people that are on that committee they have high knowledge bank but it's redundant there that's a waste taxpayer money you're looking to save money here you want to reduce the millage rate there's no discussion of eliminating Agri Tourism Committee that's already covered under Florida State Statute I do not understand I do not see uh no disrespect here but I do not see the cost benefit analysis of bringing Council in house I I just don't I'm just saying as part of the budget I don't see it and I think this is going to cost you more money overall um and it would be beneficial going forward when the public comes to you and says something's going to be a legal issue pay attention because it did raise our bills final thing Mr glan has spoken about the uh and you about drainage and he's talked about the East West historical drainage everyone's been talking about oh this new drain just you know this and that the district was a responsible decades ago for maintaining East West drainage every time we get a new supervisor we deal with their interpretation there is existing historical East Western drainage that land owners have been filling in I know a property on efro decade few years back they filled in their easement Mr Yohi said oh we can't stop them he wasn't aware of there was the district was responsible for maintaining that that person has now flooded out all the other multiple properties on that side road so there's where you could start saving money by looking at that instead of other drainage options thank you thank you can I make a motion is there anything else that you wanted to discuss Jeff before Phyllis makes her motion to accept I just wanted to uh point out to you that at your um Das today we had a a proposal to modify the proposed agenda to reflect um staying with outside Council um and having the project coordinator position remain in the budget correct so there's no change I will add that into here okay the change you need to add okay right I'm G to make a motion to approve resolution 20247 d73 adopting the proposed fiscal year 20242 budget including balances brought forward and related fiscal policies followed following the second public hearing on September 18th 2024 including the 15,000 fund for essential 5050 projects and um noting that the town attorney stays in place and the project coordinator uh also position stays in place second all in favor I I oppos I passes four to one okay moving on to item number six and uh can you read the ordinance for us approval of ordinance number 2024-25 recreational vehicles of article 20 residential zoning district and establishing article 92 recreational vehicles within part three supplemental regulations within the unified Land Development code providing for conflict severability codification and an effective date the updated um ordinance um was passed out prior to the meeting so you have that in front of you that's not part of your actual packet and we also have a public comment on this item okay let's have the public comment first Miss sish Virginia Standish 1541 Zer northward uh the public is looking for clarification in this document there's one t section in the table that refers to five acres or less five acres or more but does not address if you are five acres in the top table but down below it does say under variance five acres or more so it's like okay what happened to if you're just five Acres that's one point of clarification the other uh point that was brought up to me people are concerned well if I don't have my RV spots in now what how does the flood plane come into this and what is the cost going to be we know the application is one amount the site visits are another amount but what could you talk about what the process is for actually I've got my property with a barn and a house I want to put these RV sites in we all know it's if one inch of dirt is moved but sometimes you're just running a waterline electric line so if you could let us know what's involved in preparing the site plan it would be appreciated you like to address that sure I will I'll try my best without uh the building department and Engineering to defer to um when it comes to the RVs that are being utilized for less than 180 days um from from a zoning perspective uh I would not expect that unless there were other improvements being made that would require an FDA U and a flood plane permit that they would be subject to those again the ordinance does read um at the very beginning that there's the more restrictive of the Florida law federal law or any other provision of the town code so I don't want to speak for building or engineering um but that would be my expectation for those that are less than 179 days FMA does have some guidance um for RVs since we're looking at also having an allowance for more than 179 days in certain instances um and fima does state that a recreational vehicle placed within a special flood Hazard area um must meet the elevation and anchoring requirements for manufactured homes unless it's on the site for fewer than 180 days or is fully licensed and ready for Highway use what does that mean they Define it as uh being on Wheels and or a jacking system and is attached the only by quick disconnect type utilities and no permanently but that's one of our requirements anyhow is that they be Road worthy so it wouldn't apply to ours at all because one of our requirements is that they be Road worthy yeah we're we're going ahead and just requiring that right but that is one of our basic requirements so therefore the FEMA regulations wouldn't apply to the RVs am I correct on that the FEMA regulations we're almost duplicating or just reiterating what FEMA already requires but we also do um knowledge and uh would require the RV sites to follow any applicable Florida um or federal law okay are you do you have a question I have a question from a resident that I go ahead like answered so on five acres um currently you could have how many RVs on a 5 acre property five acres but an additional one if you're Bonafide act well I'm I I have a I have a few a question that goes into another question the current ordinance reads that you can have RS two RVs to rent that's correct and do you are you still allowed to have now where did the storage or ordinance go Francine it was directed that we combine them in one okay so that is now uh not an ordinance or it's deleted or whatever ever and it's now part of this ordinance so they can have two RVs for rent and then how many RVs personal RVs can they have I'm sorry are you talking about the proposed or the existing that's ordinance that we're going to vote in tonight okay I'm sorry I what I spoke to earlier was the ordinance that's currently in effect no I want to know about the ordinance we're voting in tonight how many are these for five acres can people rent for season it depends on if you're Bon a or not all right they're Bonafide a if you're Bonafide ad so five to 10 acres with Bon a you can have three RVs subject to the conditions that are listed in the table to rent for season correct okay and how many on that same property can you have P personally none it's a we're not stipulating you have three you can store them or they can three is the number regardless of what you do so it's either your own or you're renting them that's correct and what if you're not Bonafide egg without Bon EG it's [Music] two okay and that's five to 10 acres and that's from five to 10 acres with a dwell well the proper the person that ask me the question has a dwelling everything has to have a a dwelling unless it's a um are you done with your I am I am Laura you have a question um statement more than anything was anyone else's L on no you were next and then um where did I get yelled at after the last meeting um yikes I get yell that everything um I made a suggestion and I thought it was a good suggestion but based on the feedback I got it was deemed not a good suggestion and um that was the ability to ask for an exception I just can't yeah okay um so I would like to retract that that statement um for the special exception provision yeah I thought I was doing a good thing and like I said boed special exception for the medical right yes okay but we'll keep the special C for the medical were there were two distinct sections added one was section B special exception and one was section c disability accommodation so my understanding is we're to strike section B special exception that allowed for the request that is what she I support that also okay so if everybody else has done commenting I have just one thing I want to say boy this has been quite a process and I know I heard equally from people on both sides of this issue and I know that everybody feels very strongly about their positions but um I I would ask that you bear with us I'm I'm extremely proud of this Council and of your hard work too as well in getting something in writing that we can vote on it may not be perfect but it's a it's a place to start so let's get it in place and let's Let It Go for a little while and we do want to hear from people is this working how's it working how's it not working and then um you know if we need to tweak it and make some changes which I'm sure we will we can do so TW you had something we have a tweak already to help make it perfect you have a tweak already and I think the public comment was that uh you know we have fewer than five more than five what if you're exactly five so we we would suggest that where it says more than five it simply T to say five or more five or right in that case where you're right on the money where there not a question as to which one you fall okay great thank you okay all right Laura did you want to make a motion or did you have another question I'm so sorry I'm sorry I I can kind of roll it into both okay roll away oh I didn't see you're light Robert you any battery you're lighted let's let him make a comment first yeah um we all voted 50 on the 2.5 acres then I listened to the meeting last meeting and it was one council member requesting a special benefit to go to two acres there was no justification except anything except it was personal and it's one thing for somebody a council member to sit up here and want to receive a special benefit it's another for them to convince three other people to agree with them to allow a special benefit um so I think that needs to be 2.5 like it was previously agreed on I heard nothing that other than personal about why it should go from 2.5 down to two well I just want you to know that I heard heard from a number of people that have 2 Acre Farms in between so my motivation purely wasn't personal I have a 5 acre lot actually larger than five acres so just just to correct you that is not what made up my mind what made up my mind to go to the lower number of 2.0 is the number of people that have two Acre Farms that contacted me that wanted that had needed for agricultural purposes just to clarify from my position okay Laura you had something to say well now I have a question okay what part of the what are we talking about here we use the clutch I'm sorry we had originally said 2 point I had originally thrown out the number of 2.5 acres for the the the lower classification right and then I got a bevy of phone calls from people who have two Acre Farms in the smaller o Citrus lots and things like that that said we need those aigs exemptions for our circuit people and everything can you change that number so I suggested I corrected myself at the next meeting and suggested that it go down to 2.0 Robert is suggesting that another council person was the one who wanted to lower it because they wanted a personal benefit you didn't notion it to go to two that wasn't you I believe I did argue for it to go to two because I had heard from a number of residents watch the meeting okay all right go ahead fell go ahead and then we have Mar behind you Robert um let's not make personal attacks I realized that so I am the only council member that actually got permits on the RV I went and permitted my property I had electricians and plumbers inst stall and I did it according to the town specifications I came in and got my permit I happen to know that there probably is another council member that didn't bother getting any permits okay so I felt I did speak up because I am one of many two Acre Properties that has horse farms and I'm have an arena but I know plenty of people that do on two acres and they needed that benefit as well so I appreciate the council seeing that because it is almost half the town that is less than 5 Acre Properties thank you march when you look at uh all of the other breakdowns uh none of them are Point anything but 0 Z so be consistent leave it at 2.0 leave it at 5.0 leave it at 10.0 it's consistent thank you okay anybody want to make a motion to pass this so we can get this off the plate you want to do it Laur yeah all right um I make a motion to pass ordinance 20 D 202 24-7 on second reading with the following changes removing section B the special exemption noted on page 69 and I think that was it right oh and to change um five Glenn say it again 5.0 or more 5.0 or more rather than more than five in a few places rather than more than five. or more did you get that b yes exactly yes thank you Jeff I'm going to wait till Val nods you said 5.0 or more rather than it just says now over five rather than two is more than two it'll be two or more okay and so and same for to 10 already is good 10 already has that 10 already says 10.0 or more all right for two like Marge said consistency is important yep ready we're good yes okay now a second please I second it okay thank you just want to make sure Val got it because she was writing furiously over there okay all in favor I oppos okay passes four to one let's move on to item number seven approval of ordinance number 202 24-8 on second reading and ordinance of the Town Council of the town of lahache girls Florida amending chapter 2 Administration article 3 officers and employees division 2 code of ethics section 2- 87 standards of conduct paragraph 10 of the code of ordinances and part five development review procedures and requirements article 120 quasi judicial hearings section 12-20 experte Communications with the unified Land Development code of the town of lahache groves to provide for procedures regarding holding and disclosure of expart communications and removing any presumption of prejudice providing for conflict severability codification and an effective date do we have any public comment on this item we do not okay Council I'll make motion wait okay nobody has a discussion did you want to make a discussion or a mo um just just to clear up legal ease just what does this mean okay what does it mean put this in real people language for us thank you or Glen you can now have um X parte Communications basically so it means that a developer or so so let's just say one that's coming up the people from Bo instead of coming here and and having quasi judicial meetings during a council meeting to try to get different council members takes or ideas of what would be acceptable or not acceptable they can come here to town hall and meet with us individually and get our thoughts our comments on their project before they just to help them in making the decision of going forward with the project as opposed to taking up an hour of council time or an hour and a half of council time doing the same thing during me you have disclose it but you have to disclose it yeah the suggestion was that you meet here not at Denny do that require that part's a suggestion it's not a requirement but it's a suggestion that you meet at Town Hall with them and if you meet at Town Hall do you have a babysitter with you no no NOP you can just have a conversation you can just have a conversation great and remember it's not just the developer it's anybody it's anybody in the community it allows you to speak um to members of the the opposition loyal opposition about why they want to object to something or why they're in favor of it it's not just the developer it's people out there because exp parte means any individual communication regardless of whether it is the person that's directly affected it's members of the public so like the people who came forward with their trees yeah that would count as yeah and but I'm also thinking of with respect to um the people that are opposed to a project technically if they come up to you in the store or somewhere else prior to the adoption of this ordinance um and say I really want to talk to you council person about um this thing and you you're supposed to say sorry that's an expart communication I can't talk about that with or you talk about it and disclose it well now now you can but before before you weren't supposed to you weren't supposed to do it all right thank you thank you both and that's why we give everybody earplugs when you first get on board so that put those earplugs on MAR you have who who keeps a record of what goes on um so that we know what's presented to us is what actually happened you're self- policing really right what's that self- policing you you are responsible for reporting your your your ordinance is saying you are responsible for disclosing any expart Communications now you don't have to get into every detail I met Mary at the 7-Eleven and we talk about but you have to say I met Mary Mary opposed to it I heard Mary's Viewpoint you know just so that the public knows that you met with somebody and identify that person and whether they were in support or opposed Al commonly done just so you know this isn't like we re Reinventing the wheel I know it hasn't been done in lock at grov but most cities have that kind of the only communities without export that's a good statement that's a true statement and it would it would save I mean correct me if I'm wrong but to me it seems like it would save a lot of council time that could be worked on doing other business that needs to get handled because right now the only Avenue people have is to come and kind of put feelers out here um you know in these quads I did IAL hearings that take up time whereas if maybe we heard from them outside of here individually they would know it doesn't look like they're going to be in favor of this or it looks like they're going to be in favor of this if we do this that or the other um so it could possibly be a timesaver for doing thing more business that we need to get handled correct correct I'd also like to point out that anybody that comes in to speak with you is representing a project and they would have to sign in um based on the um pach County rules and State LA form we have to fill out as well or just notify you that we did that we spoke or is that like like last time when I spoke with somebody who had spoken with somebody I said that I spoke with somebody who had spoken with somebody and it didn't change my ability to make a opinion is that all it does it require a statement it only requires sure disclosure but a council meeting or to you at a council meeting so at the so I if if any of us meets with someone between this meeting and the next meeting at the beginning of October at the beginning of the meeting or we have to disclose only if you're voting on only if you're voting on the issue so so when you go to only if their item comes up we have to disclose at the beginning so that requires us to keep track of everybody we had talked to and what their items going to be well it's it's this isn't this is in the realm of development and projects that are coming to you for uh approval I'm just trying to make it sure that we're all clear on what our responsibility is it's not every single um item on the agenda if somebody comes to you um uh on the CIP you don't have to disclose that about the CIP happens to be like a script so when you're the quasa judicial as a mayor you're going to get in a habit of asking everyone any that parte Communications okay and and that's a trigger and that'll be the script and everybody will know that okay this item we have to disclose and you'll help me remember that we will the whole team here is gonna help remember that and again the other thing that I I mentioned is the for the person meeting with you they have to sign in at the front desk if they're representing a project or or they're you know lobbying for something okay thank you Mar you had something to add or you want to make yeah um how many people um presenting a project can be at this exp parte and how many people sharing the opinion of the person who made the arrangement that's up to you I mean and you don't have to do this you can still refuse you're not required to have these ex parte Communications so if I come up to you and says Council woman I want to talk about this development I'm doing you can say I don't want to know I don't want to hear about it you if they four people to talk to you you would then say you can I met with Mike Mary bobin Sue from developer Jones about this project okay or you can say I don't want to meet with Mike Mary Bob and Sue I'll just meet with Mike right okay this is your meeting you control it you and what about if you uh fill the room with residents I mean not in the chambers they come to and they say Okay a hundred of us meet with you right at that point I think I would say uh let's let's Li let's limit it you know can you can you pick two or three Representatives because you don't want to be in a room with a hundred people but um well you but you might go to like a community meeting sure and but that's outside of the experte communications correct the community meeting is outside of experte correct no that's no not if it's about let's say I have a hundred people if it's about a Dev 100 people are going to get together and we are going to be in support of this wonderful development and I want to invite one person I can't invite all uh more than one of you but I'm going to invite you one at a time to meet with the 100 constituents to tell you how great this project is not involved in the project I just think it's going to be great because I love trampolines um and uh that's the next part of the communication okay thank yeah right be a learning experience ask us questions if you have questions as this comes up you've not done this before I haven't ridden a horse before if I went to ride a horse I would ask you well how do I do that good idea you're getting on a new horse so ask questions watch Blazing Saddles my favorite movies I'll make okay can I have a motion I'll make a motion to approve ordinance 202 24-8 on first reading second all in favor it's on second reading for the record this is second reading it says first reading in the book I thought it was the second reading all right second we're on item number seven yes it says approval of ordinance number 20248 on second reading on the agenda are you looking at the memo 78 right she's looking on page three you're looking on a different page so two different places okay two different on second reading okay so do we need to revote no I just wanted to State it for the record but who seconded the motion I did Robert Robert seconded it it passed unanimously thank you okay now we're going back to item number four which was pulled by Laura for discussion so can I have a reading of the title and then Laura you can tell us why you pulled it yes mayor uh consideration of approval of resolution number 2024 70 a resolution of the Town Council of the town of lahache gr Florida approving amendments to the gas tax map and Road mileage chart providing and effective date okay did excuse me Laur for one second any public comment on this no no okay Laura go ahead you pull this because I just want to make sure I understand it because I've heard here we go different things from different people about yes no this is right this is wrong that's my drive that's my property this is what I was told by the town for my new address so if somebody in either the town or our attorney or the planner can explain just just what is it that we're doing here because the way I understood it is and I could be flat out wrong there was a property on frro that was a 10 it was broken into two fives and instead of the back five having an frro address it got an address off of 20 God I can't even read that 23d Court North am I close that's a whole another can I speak before I just want to ask the turn if I need to recuse myself because the person that bought that tenant Acres discussed the situation with me about you know having the address and having access down 23rd in a historical access because there's an old wooden bridge there and I guess like rich said in the past historically the district didn't want you to put covers in the canal so they had access through that road so I talked to that person with no clue that it would end up in front of council I thought it would go in the court system I said well sounds like a civil issue to me but since this is talking about the gas tax map is it apples and oranges Glen let me think he's got a conflict I don't think you have a conflict okay because we're not talking about granting somebody access we're just talking about updating the gas tax B it's anything and I appreciate you disclose that though a good disclos that's kind of an exp disclosure goodt well I'm in that same boat too because you know the parties involved were talking to me but that's not that's not this matter this is not qu judicial you're good but again disclosure is never a bad thing yeah right you just disclose stuff that didn't have to then no conflict but that's good you put it on the record so I have a question do these people want this to be added to the gas tax map it's being deleted I'm sorry it's being deleted they want it deleted so they have requested that it be deleted so so the history is and I don't remember the exact date Jeff might know but sometime sometime in the dim ages of the Town um Town issued a permit for a gate um across this lady's driveway this particular property is the only property it's at the end of the road she applied and obtained a permit from the town or the county or from somebody some governmental Authority I don't remember do you remember when it was 200 either 16 or 18 okay so it was from the town so she received a permit from the town to put this gate up she put the gate up um our grader you know grading the road obviously can't get past the gate she came in here a number of months ago and made the comment that you know I looked at your gas tax chart and your gas tax chart has all this length um it's 113 feet into my yard and you're not maintaining that so you shouldn't be receiving gas tax revenue from it she's got a valid point that's what started the whole audit thing that I did that took me like three months to do where I went through the plat the subdivision all the subdivision unrecorded plats every deed everything on any road went through all the records I could possibly find within the town to locate the private roads to to make sure they were removed and did we include the I didn't know yeah so if you'll see in here you'll see on page 208 is the actual mileage chart and you'll see it's paved and unpaved you'll see some of them have zeros or blank there's like no mileage at all and it's because those are those are considered private roads or they have been combined with other roads um because I also cleaned up the gas TX or cleaned up this table a little bit so it's more it's easier to read um and so we basically did an audit of the entire town um verifying that what is on here is legitimately roads maintained by the town uh what's paved unpaved and this 113 ft was the only part that was to be removed which I don't know what the monetary ramifications are of removing the3 feet but I'm pretty sure it's not a lot um but that's the gist of it okay do we have any questions or would somebody like to make a mo Robert you have a question question so just to be clear all we're saying is we didn't maintain this section of road so anybody and you're saying there's no other place in town that there's this situation where we're not maintaining a section of road so somewhere I'd have to go look at the exact dates but somewhere in the 2008 2009 neighborhood um the management at that time had put out a thing saying if you want your road to be private you need to petition the town or whatever and there were several residents and Roads that said I don't want to be part of the in your audit this was the only one that you found that needed to be adjusted is my point yes okay so everything else is good for the gas TCH pretty much I mean there was some lengths so the lengths changed a little bit but like we're talking feet and it wasn't because we know we you we're not we're maintaining from here x to Y we were still maintaining from X to Y it was just where they got X and Y from was the question that was my question that's why I told uh Town manager was I want to feel com I'm a data person I want to feel comfortable and when I say this is accurate that this is accurate um and so I could not do that with the previous table because I don't know where it came from it came before the town was even a town is where it started you reissue that highlighted map we've got all the gas St I'm working highlighted and some of them like go up people's driveways and that's that's what prompted the audit because it went up somebody's like there was a couple roads somebody into somebody's that's why I was wondering why there wasn't more changes when I compared that map because the what was shown on that map versus what is because this this this these three pages four pages is what we turn into the state not the map so the calling it a gas tax map is kind of misleading because the map is more of a reference than anything else the lengths that were on there um of what we were getting as far as revenue from it versus what that map showed were completely different so there were Road shown on that map that weren't legitimate were never ours and were never even being built for why that map and I think what Robert's asking for in your spare time it is for you to update that map because it is a it is something that I'm assuming he hears from people and I hear from people a lot of this is on the gas tax map and it doesn't belong there but if we're not using if we're using different numbers and that map is not accurate I think it's for for public perception it's really hugely important for you to get that straightened out so that people actually have something to look at and know know what's going on right we working on that I just want to clarify alls we're doing is updating the gas tax map we are not involved in any Ingress egress issues between properties that has nothing to do with this okay this is just updating okay Mar comment or motion comment okay yeah uh the original gas tax uh list came from the water Control District uh cleat son and the supervisors made it up and um I was uh at the league of cities when when all of this was presented and yes there were some you know little foot paths that were considered roads so you know it it it needed a lot of tweaking as the years went by and then when we became Incorporated it became a a big issue BEC because the district wanted their funds in their account and the town was supposed to get the funds and send them to their account so it was always a big problem and before that the county was collecting the gas tax revenue so cleat probably got it from the county origin no doubt and so and I my personal belief um as a person who's worked with uh GIS and stuff like that is I believe that they put the map they put their map together like if you go to my geonav or you go to the property PR's office and see that on there you can click on those roads and it'll tell you who's responsible for them and all this other stuff and my belief is that the county just because I Engineers do it all the time um the county just went in there took those said okay these all all the roads that belong to loche Groves are in this area and they just clicked on there said what's the length Okay the length is 3,482 you know feet because some of the measurements we're into the hund and I'm like the only way you're going to get hunds is from a computer program what added to this confusion was when we had the census and um Ken uh Johnson and I were given section maps of the town and they had little trails that look like roads and they asked us to you know give the location where they were and that added more thought that these things should be considered for gas fund money and and that was always the big issue how many roads can we add this year to bring up the gas fund money okay thank you Marge okay phis you ready to make a motion yes Laur you got excuse me Laura you got your question answered you're happy okay all right go ahead make a motion to approve resolution 2024 -74 the elimination of the documented Road section from the gas tax map and the Town Road mileage chart second all in favor I oppose passes five to zero um we're on item number nine discussing the capital Improvement plan I presume that's gonna be you oh Jeff okay and mayor um you all have supplemental information that was provided um in front of you supplemental information that was provided outside of your packet today that was provided today that you can refer to yeah it's minor um minor test changes that I'll I'll go over with you real quick okay the the purpose of this discussion um looks like this tonight okay was to um go over with we're going to focus on the the future years because we had gone over 2025 um and and had a consensus I believe um I don't know whether or not that consensus on 2025 is impacted by um your budget discussions or not obviously if um 20125 is an issue and you want to revise the 20225 portion of this please let us know the second reading of this ordinance is scheduled for October what we are hoping to do tonight is come forward with a you know have a discussion and be able to come forward with clean document um the ordinance itself is proor the meat of it is in um the exhibits uh what you had discussed or what we had originally come forward was let let's talk about the um Road plan uh for the years 26 and out um we had given you uh sheets for for ranking I think only one council person um filled that out and we didn't actually provide that to you because we understood the consensus Direction was uh we don't want to rate and evaluate these things on an individualized basis we want to hear uh from the public works director right I think that the consensus is that it be had become political Jeff and Laura made a very good point which was that it really should be in the hands of Public Works who are right the ones doing the work the ones doing the grading and really the ones most qualified to make this kind of a decision and so what we outlined here for you was the the changes that um Richard and his staff came up with um they elected to prioritize uh the last of the grid roads or the main roads um in future years and uh put forth north north and south north um for the years he believes based on our current level of funding that we're anticipating to be about $400,000 a year that North North is a two-year project one that would be in preparation um and one that would be in Paving um and uh South North would um be the same sort of schedule um what's outlined for the F for the five years is North North the first two years um and then uh in uh that would be 26 and 27 when I say the first two years because we're Beyond 25 um and um then uh in 27 I'm sorry in 28 the Carrie Lane and in 20 20 um 7 or eight sorry 26 27 28 um it would be uh the Tangerine Loach Avenue Valencia that area um would be proposed to be done next then in 29 and 30 you're at U South North Road um and in 31 it would be the West D and Carry Lane neighborhoods in 32 it's the West SE and 11th Terrace neighborhoods and then in 33 uh we would get out to Global Trail and Bunny Lane and 34 would be um g Road 25th um Street East of fulson March Circle Great Dane and G um and obviously the farther out you get uh there's more time and room for changes the CIP plan under the uh ordinance or the um laws required to go out five years um so that was that was just make a point real quick I here's here's what I don't see that's missing to me so what I don't see is money in this capital for maintaining the roads so if anything what we've discovered in the last couple of years is that these roads deteriorate very quickly that we have a lot of usage on them and they deteriorate very quickly um so like if you look at North or upper North Road or North North Road whatever you want to call it it's a disaster I mean it's a disaster um and so I just want to make sure that you guys are considering in moving forward funding for not letting a disaster like that happen again I I I have so much compassion for those people that have to drive down that road I have to go down it every once in a while because I help somebody with a barn down there and it's just like I'm I'm almost tempted to go down and go around okoba even though it takes twice as long because upper North literally has potholes that will swallow your vehicle and I have an SUV I mean it's it's bad it it needs some relief much sooner than two years from now I mean it just does they need some help so what I don't see in this Capital plan is so you know SE roads falling apart and these other roads and th those are major funding issues to take care of those things so I want to make sure and I'm I'm not telling how to do it I just want to make sure you have in the back of your mind that the roads that are put in today within the next two or three years need I don't know top in or edging or or something something to you know new Milling whatever it is but I want to make sure that you're taking into consideration in your long-term plan what needs to be done not just to lay them but to to to maintain them to keep them in this Capital Improvement so so if you if you've gone down North Road lately um we have actually graded a lot of it we fill in a lot of the potholes with millings we actually at 145th and North Road just removed sections of it and actually laid hot asphalt so North Road is probably significantly better than it was two weeks ago or or before um the reason got swallowed last Saturday and Sunday when I went down it so yeah we just did it this like we literally yes wday Wednesday Monday um went out there and did 145th in North Road um and we're continuing down I mean obviously it's a long road um to do and we F so it's not perfect but it's a lot better than it was um the reason why this that's one of the reasons why this is a two-year project both of these roads are two-year projects because the amount of prep work um you know the first year is going to be tree removal Road removal because that ogum needs to be removed in order to do this correctly drainage installations all the other Associated stuff to prepare the road to be paved and then the second year that's how long it's going to take um the road the paving plan we're doing right now my guys have been you know our team has been like almost you know exclusively working on nothing but the paving project because the way that this this is all set up and we're actually starting on a and collecting now which we haven't gotten the first easement signed but we're already starting you know we got the survey crew has already been out there we've already identified what's got to be removed we already figured out what's got to be you know what work has to be done so we can actually as we start getting the E and start doing that prep work so we can actually give them an honest and realistic timeline to get these roads done to make sure the drainage is there to make sure the canal banks are stable to make sure that the road base is stable so we get the maximum lifespan out of these roads for the money that we're paying to have them installed I happen to know those people are very eager to sign the I trust me I know I heard from all of them constantly yes so and that's and that's also in process but yeah we are um that you know Jeff and I and our team met and discussed you that's why if you look at this plan you know upper North and lower North are twoyear each projects because of the amount of work that's going to be required to do them correctly right okay just want to make sure that if B Ro pops big if B Road pops big potholes that the people on B Road don't have to wait two three or four years for those potholes to be we like when when people tell us that's one of the big because we don't drive up and down every road every day right so um you know when people tell and we invite the public and even you guys send me an email you know you see a pothole somewhere um I know Mr Shore you know brought up the other day they came by the office hey you know there's a pothole on D and collecting Canal we've already fixed it th those kind of Maintenance things are taken out of the um Road and drainage budget and you've allocated um monies for but clearly they're not enough for things to go as abandoned as they have I'm not sure that yeah hopefully moving forward they won't be Robert did you have a question before Jeff Contin you since you mentioned that pothole we've got a guy that rides around every day picking up trash right on the John Deere I know I saw him two days in a row come down my road sometimes sometimes not every day probably like once a week ask him to look out for that kind of stuff because I watched I looked that Poole for three months and I couldn't believe I was the first one to say something but anyhow north north south north actually you weren't I called A din off how um where you at with have you checked the easements and what do we have versus what do we need well that's why I'm getting I have I 2627 project yeah it's a 2627 project I actually got a quote just recently from the surveyor and we're going to you know we're going to start looking into what we need to do what easements we need we're doing that now so that way but when we bring you your budget next year in theory we'll already any easements we need will already be signed any stuff that needs to be done will already be taken care of so that way we can actually start on October 1st and start on the project not say okay the budget's passed now we're going to spend the next six months trying to get everything ready to start doing stuff I'm sorry was that question about North North Robert or South North which North North both of them I know South north is very narrow North North is oam so there was already some some what of a footprint there a lot of it's been taken over by grass but my other question A- road we gave a whole year we delayed that for one year to get easements and I'm not seeing a single easement up here at Council don't they come to council um no you've pre-approved them um oh we pre-approved them so they don't have to come to us at all correct okay um and and what we've what we've identified for you is that um up until this point being able to answer questions with you know about the easements like are you gon to have to move my fence what trees are going to be impacted how far is the roadway going to go into what I consider my property um because my property goes somewhere to the middle of the road or Beyond those kind of questions and the time frame for when you would be a able to actually um go forward with the work um we weren't in a position unfortunately uh to answer those questions and we did overpromise a little bit as to when we would be able to to get all that information we have engaged that there was a survey that was done they now have the stakes they are planning out the the project so that when we go and meet with people we're going to be able to say oh yeah your fence all good no problem okay those those are the kind of things that we have so we learn this year how to do it well no moving forward on North Road these other roads we'll have a better understanding of what we need to do ahead of time before we even talk to the people well yeah and it comes down to the first thing is to to on on a-road in particular is to to have a survey out there and not be just lining up and saying oh we're going to pave the road where it is because we're not Paving it where it is we're Paving it where it's going to to be and as we discussed with respect to that project there's going to be significant Canal stabilization that work that's going to be done especially up at the the North End uh towards okobe um and so that current configuration is not it's going to look differently when they actually start Paving but before we can start Paving on that and before we can get a bid out there because the way we do bids we don't have complete engineering documents and plans to say that this is going to be there we need to get that established so that when we put it out on the street the contractors you know come into doing the inspection and they're saying okay I see I'm not you're not telling me that there's going to be three more feet of um it's there they can see it and we can move forward um and so yeah that project ended up being a little more complicated in Richard and Craig's valuation North North Road South especially um as you pointed out it is um overgrown and we're probably going to find as we've found in a lot of other places that there is a road bed that's wider than that and and like with a-road for example our intent is to actually have a distance between the burm of the canal and the edge of the road so the road isn't part of the Canal bank um which would reduce the amount of slides and other stabilization issues caused by having road asphalt right up against the edge of a canal um you know these are the things we're putting into consideration when doing the future roads as we as we move forward was there a thought that you're going to get a distance to do guard rails because I know that was always we needed five feet we never had it's not in the budget it's not in the budget but we do have a plan for to you know build rebuilding a B versus guard are ridiculously expensive okay did you have more to present or is this something we need to on or the only thing I wanted to what was handed out to to you today with respect to the modifications really had to do with the fact that um we wanted to acknowledge that uh we do have a number of Grant applications out there and there is um you know the beginning of hope that we might be able to get some of these funds so the revised exhibit um and what you will see um with the p with the the ordinance to be adopted is uh an acknowledgement that you know if we get funding from a private Source or uh from a governmental Source priorities could um adjust um that uh we we reflect and we acknowledge that um there have been the LMS grants and and um the uh rural infrastructure grants that have appli to and we make those an exhibit they're listed there for you um so that when we go to the grant thank when you go through the Grant application process and somebody's doing the review and they say well did you guys actually think about that is this on um your plan yes it is and in fact um it's contemplated by virtue of the fact that we have this on uh on the plan specific Grant applications that are there i' I'd like to just acknowledge that you know over the C past couple of weeks I've come in and signed about a hundred million dollar worth of Grants so I would like to acknowledge Amber for her incredible hard work in getting these all out there in a timely manner if we can get a quarter of them we'll we'll be in you know in a lot better shape than we are now Francine for bringing it up Jeff for your hard work on this anybody else's name I'm leaving out but I know that it's uh you know an arduous process to get these grants identified written and you know set up and Richard I'm sure you had something to do with the infrastructure ones um and to get all the the te's crossed and the eyes dotted to make sure that um you know that that we qualify for them or that we at least get ranked and I know that we did get ranked on a couple of big ones in the past but hopefully we can get past that ranking stage and actually get some of these so um I just wanted to I know Amber's not here but hey girl if you're watching shout out to Amber for for all your hard work because I know that you really have been um have been pushing the pencil thank you so sorry tonight's discussion and Direction um if there are revisions that you want to see if you want further explanations from Richard as to why he came up with this um plan it's the opportunity to do so so that we can present you on October 1st a document that hopefully won't require um much if any Amendment and can be adopted on second reading that's when the um second reading is advertised for anybody have any questions are everybody okay with Richard's plan so far so far yes okay so it's just a discussion item so we can move along thank you Richard for your hard work on this uh item number 10 discussion on the revision of the Town council's Rules of Order and procedure and I know we've all gotten a lot of text on this today so frine are you um we brought this back to the agenda at the request based on the request at the last meeting and I believe that there is a change that we would suggest in um rule 18 on page 100 where it talks about refraining from direct or indirect Communications with um committee members or Advisory board members that should say with members other than their appointee okay but appears we have a public comment I brought that up this week yeah I was like oh I want to be able to talk to my Appo okay looks like we must have a public comment well we have Miss SSH uh that we received a public comment from uh we did receive an email from Mr sud which I he here in person so did you want us to what your email long yeah absolutely minu 3765 EO and today this comment is about public comment so comment about the comment I think in this policy the thing that bothers me the most is an impression that we are giving to the people that this government is trying to restrict freedom of speech uh um in particular there are two issues one is in this policy it says where it possible individual grievances should first be taken up with the town staff before comments are made at a town council meeting and it also Sayes that an individual can only read one comment from another person so think about this lady who was distraught today she had an urgent issue and if I read this comment correctly she has to first go to the town people and plead with them before she comes here and speaks her mind and secondly um imagine if this woman was busy managing her farm and imagine if I was her friend and she said can you read it for me or somebody else said you shouldn't put any restriction look at this we have we are 8:50 p.m. and there are only three public people here it's not a situation where people are lining up with wasting your time in fact you should encourage more comments not discourage it so the point I'm making here is that um the government's role especially now in this political environment where governments are suppressing speech and so forth is to encourage residents to come forward and the same thing applies to the social media policy which was pulled out but I have to say that this was also very disturbing that uh it says that that you can't say you have to instill confidence in the government well you know whether you are a Committee Member or you are a council member your job or Duty shouldn't be singing songs of praise if if I'm a Committee Member unpaid volunteer job and if I see something not right I'm going to say I don't have confidence for example I said something around the budget few weeks ago and you know that helped so please keep in mind that all these words communicate your intent and uh I would encourage you to invite more freedom loving people in this town and encourage them to speak up thank you is that the only public comment yes mayor okay I thought you said Miss sish had fun it was for item 11 okay all right okay Laura you have a comment I do um and forgive me if I missed the the explanation um I'm on the bottom of page 95 can you speak and see your mic please thank sorry um I'm on the bottom of page 95 the bottom of the paragraph and I'm starting on the last sentence where it says written public comments receiv received by the town clerk will be read aloud during the meeting written public comments may be read aloud by another member of the public provided that any individual may only read written public comments for one other person not to exceed 3 minutes can we I I don't think that's what we said no we didn't say that we didn't limit them to one other person's public comments we said they could they that anybody could read into the record as long as they said who there sent it in and said Susie Jones is going to read mine into the comment if seven people say Susie Jones is going to read mine into the record then then so be it okay I believe that is what we said too I agree with that that's what I understood from it was said that way that was certainly not our intent so yeah and then you know the not to exceed three minutes is is a rule we have for all public comments so that's fine but as I think the public knows we're pretty lenient about if you need another minute or two we we we'd let that slide on a pretty regular basis up here so I think you have to have a framework to start scratch provided that whole no provided that any individual may only read written public comments for one other correct correct good scratch that whole part scratch that whole part out okay audios and all the and and also so we're looking at 73 also at the beginning I mean you say that you know again it's another thing we say that people can be limited to one opportunity per subject matter but we all know well and good that at least it's been my policy as mayor to let people come up more than once if that's what they need to do but I think you need to start out again with a ground rule and you know in an effort not to make the leading the meetings go till 1 o'clock in the morning every night start out with some kind of ground rule then obviously if somebody's compelled to come up again and they State their case I don't think that that's anything it right Glenn I mean it's okay to make exceptions to those things on an individual basis yeah yeah so I think that covers that because we certainly don't want to stifle anybody's free speech so okay any other comments on any other does is everybody happy with the way that is now was that removed okay 7 point five Laur do you have something on it looks like that's what you're pointing at yes okay um at some point I vaguely remember leesa saying to me that if somebody comes up to the podium they don't have to State their correct their address you know they you can just say I'm John Smith corre right all right so because in here it says it is preferred okay all right so we can live with preferred okay and then my last I think it's important for people to identifi I mean I think it's helpful for people to identify whether they're residents of the town or not residents of the town when making comments so that we know the nature of where they're comments are coming from okay Laura you have something else uh last one 18.1 18.1 I have something on that seven oh can we go back can we by item okay I'm sorry you have something on the 7.5 or yeah I don't I don't like the idea that they should be barred um by the presiding officer from speaking um you know further that meeting or further that item which is I I I think it's if somebody's becoming disruptive that they would be asked to I mean the way I interpret that is if somebody's becoming disruptive to the order of the meeting they would be asked to leave the meeting and yeah for that meeting it doesn't say interpret that it doesn't say leave it says to stop speaking right unless they can calm down enough and then there can be a majority vote of the council to let them talk again so it's per that item not per it doesn't say per item they Cal down yeah yeah okay all right I just don't want someone you know thrown out they get more boisterous because they've been thrown out you know if they could just calm down and stay for further items I think that's always been the intent yeah okay everybody okay with that is the intent of that all right yes now everybody's okay with SE everything up until 18 did anybody have anything before 18 they wanted to talk about no all right let's move on to 18 Laura so the way I read 18 is my fact member is Tracy she and I speak 8 says I'm not allowed to speak to any other Robert and I both just said you need to be able to speak to your fact member right that needs to be added in here you need to be able to speak to your appointees I I will continue to speak to other fact members I will continue to do it period end of topic you cannot stifle me from seeking information from other people you have to trust that I am enough of a Statesman not to say hey Tracy Cassie thinks this is a great idea you you you you should think about that or wow Manish said to me that blah blah blah blah blah I call freaking baloney sauce Manish I'm going to say this because you're out there you have broad shoulders you and I have had fabulous discussions prior before before you became a fact member I will not let go of that period same thing with Miss sui great relationship great discussions we didn't always agree on stuff but that's how I get my feedback that's how I learn so as far as I'm concerned 18.1 you can blow it out your shorts I'm GNA continue to do what I do moving on would you like to speak to that no I don't either by the way I mean clearly this is these are your rules so you can establish your own rules and you know consider uh coun danowski comments and consider whether you want to delete this paragraph or modify it um you could um there a little out of the box but you could always say if you want to allow it there's got to be some ex almost like the expar disclosure that I mean I think my main concern with it is that I think that sometimes in those conversations regardless of what what you say like you when when you say something in that conversation it it just puts such a burden on you to um when you say during that conversation I'm not budging one inch on this I feel like you are um planning a seat and maybe putting undue pressure on the committee on as a whole okay um to you know well we can't even consider these other options because we already know that this person this person's already told us they're not budging they're not moving an inch um and so I I think it may put unfair I think it may be steering um that's that's what I think it it opens up the possibility of steering to such a huge degree that I think there has to be some some prohibit on on that kind of communication I'm not saying you can't go out to lunch with them talk to them about General stuff and things like that but as regarding something that we're about to come up and vote on I think it's really important to yes seek counsel from your appointee that's you know that's who that's who you appointed for their expertise but to pull all the other ones and tell them what you think and how you feel or even to call them and ask them questions you know searching questions fine but to to as part of that conversation s say how you feel and how you intend to vote I think is a clear case of of speak of steering and that is unethical that's my personal opinion it is an advisory committee they can say peanut butter and I can say pizza so if I want to and this goes back to the word trusting a statesman's behavior um you know if you in your example you just said I could go out to lunch with a different F member other than Tracy or you know I mean it's I trust fa and P Z to do their job I trust what they come forward with in their own group we're already not allowed to attend their meetings or have comments or to attend their meetings we're just supposed to keep our comments to ourselves so how can how can that not be construed as pressure you know again I think we're kind of stepping into grade school here about saying you can't talk to these people I I I just but I do not support if item 18 is left in here as it's written I am just not in favor of it at all I hear what you're saying that's what I was going to say also that I I think it's um insulting to me as a council member absolutely that you know these restrictions are are being put on me you know I've been elected to service the community let me service them then get rid of this thing Robert yeah I agree I've had several people that I didn't um that aren't my appointees reaching out to me they they see you on the DI they see what you support what you don't support and when they find a commonality they reach out to you and uh a lot of them do so to to say no I can't communicate with you I don't think is right because maybe there trying to understand something that the person they can talk to um is explaining it differently and the more that these committee members can reach out and try to gain information to help them understand the situation and and make their own decisions I think they're better no matter who it comes from and we can't keep burdening staff with everybody go meet with staff go meet with staff call the attorney call the attorney I mean that has got to end or slow down it'll never end it's got to slow down thank you Robert phis so what I find interesting is [Music] um that for a long time we had no advisory committees at least for the past three years or so and this Council wanted to bring them back and the reason why is first of all because we need people to be involved in our community and hopefully sit up here one day so start the process of getting involved and understanding how the municipalities work and the frustration of how M municipalities work and the second reason is because they have fresh eyes and they may not they may see things we don't see and I would appreciate an an opinion from my advisory committee that that possibly has not been influenced in any way and I think that's very important and I think we have rules and we have rules of ethics and that because sometimes people don't understand they're crossing the line or they don't know you're not going to jail you know you're just being told to you know if you're passionate about something that we're going to be voting on you know that if you're going to call every single Committee Member then you may not even realize you're polling them and you may not even realize you're steering so it's kind of to keep us out of trouble and if you're not going to steer then what is the harm of having this in here we're all neighbors we're all going to go to lunch or dinner or have cocktails or whatever with our different neighbors but we have to be careful about what we talk about if they're on a committee that you're about to vote on a subject then perhaps you want to hear their honest their uninfluenced opinion so I see no issue with leaving this in okay so what what are you asking from us for this you're asking for a vote prove it are you asking go back to the drawing board or I think the the question is going to be um what to do with that number because I think everybody's good with the other changes make a motion to remove rule 18 if that's what we're looking for a consensus or motion second so what I would request is that something regarding I'm okay with removing it as it stands but and I'm certainly okay with everybody talking to their own Committee Member but I do think that there needs to be a rule in there even if it is to keep us all on the straight and narrow um and not to insult anybody but just to remind us of what what constitute a conflict of interest when interacting with um council members so I guess what I would ask for is is some kind of a rewrite I mean with committee members I'm sorry what I would ask for is some kind of a rewrite um that maybe makes it more gentle can we vote on the motion sens it a little I have something to say I'd like to finish saying what I'm gonna say and then you can vote away all right thank you I I get the turn to speak too um I'd like to look for some I'd like to look at something because again I think Phyllis made a very valid point is that we count on these committees to give us independent opinions and sometimes we may not realize when we're steering and and it's important to be cautious I think it really is um and I don't know something some something regarding conflicts of interest in deal in our uh associations with the Committees I think is probably needed but that's all I had to say did you have something to say we're gonna vote on Robert's motion and then you're gonna or or did you want to have something you wanted to say before we vote on Robert's motion no okay that's what I was gonna say alrighty so all in favor of removing completely rule 18 all right I I opposed I opposed okay passes three to two let's remove everything let's have no ethics okay thank you phis for your comment all right number number public uh number I'm sorry Town manager your you to go back to consider adopting the rest of it 18 is there any motion to adopt the rest of it I believe was the motion to adopt the rest of it with the removal of 18 and the changes that were made tonight that's what I heard but that's not what I heard that's not what the motion was stated more concisely okay who made yeah I make a motion to adopt it doesn't even have a resolution number yet that's why I thought yeah I think we just need to put this on October one with the changes discussion I have a question this was already approved that this was added 18.1 so these these other items can be scrier changes to what has previously been approved and it doesn't have to come back if everyone is in agreement 18.1 is the only thing that was changed does it have a resolution numbers it was adopted a previous adopted at a previous meeting this has been being discussed since March what's it a part of so what action would you like from us to approve it with the removal of 18 just what we just did approve it with the removal of 18 is it not is sufficient okay so then we're good that doesn't hurt that's fine and we'll make the scrier changes with regard to um reading aloud other comments okay perfect Town manager ask is this all committees Planning and Zoning yep you can talk faac awesome you can steer away okay so the motion is to approve this as presented except for 18 okay is that motion yes no steering is still not allowed we're not giving card blanch to steer the committee members it's they're just taking that out wait Glenn so taking that out steering is just not permitted ethically everything else in here codes and ASC said there's a bunch of scribers errors on page 89 that are being corrected so that's why I think Valerie and I would like to hear a motion that approves it with all these scribers errors no my question is removing rule 18 conflicts of interest being able to speak to all the does not does not condone steering of the Committees no it just it's silent on it now there's no condoning it condemning it it's just does ethics speak to stearing no not in general if so we are condoning steering so it's not in our rules we're not we're cond we are not condoning steering for the love of Pete I talk to Tracy about X okay Monday goes on Tuesday goes on Mr suit calls me and he's like council member danowski can you talk to me about item C I don't quite get it sure I talked to Tracy about X I had conversation with Mr Su about C and the next week goes on and Miss sui calls me about F and we have a conversation about interpretation I still consider it steering and I'm entitled to my opinion absolutely believe that we are steering by not having not an attack op oh it most certainly is go on it is not an attack on you because we're all neighbors here it is about what's in our book when you and I don't sit here anymore what are the future Council going to do this is the book of how we're supposed to run our town okay it's not about you it's not about me it's not about her it's about whoever is sitting here they can change it if a situation corre uncomfortable it can be changed in the future all right Francine you have some comments for us yes I'll be I'll be Merc Bri do the motion there has not I we haven't heard a motion that says we approved this policy with the scribers Evers you ready took out 18 so just approving the balance of it okay can I have a motion motion to approve the policy with the scrier errors second all in favor I I no I this isn't about removing 18 it's approving the remaining policy yeah I all right now can we hear from the town manager well would you like to hear from the attorney with regard to Building height I don't know your names before so that's why I did it so sure we can hear from the town attorney first yeah we we just put a memo out there because there was a question about the building Heights and as you can see there's no change I mean the last time this was looked at was in 2021 okay there is an urban legend going around town I received no less than 10 emails texts and phone calls today regarding that this Council this past Council had approved a three-story Building height this is what is being the information that is being disseminated in the community did this past Council approve a three-story Building height no this was the only thing what building height is currently let's do it in black and white what building height is currently approved 35 feet which is how many stories it depends how you build your building so it's typically two stories but no more than two stories 35 feet is 35 feet so if you do eight foot ceilings you could get three stories if you do eight foot ceilings you could get three stories due the ma you can it just depends on how you build the building yeah but the height but typically what's a story oh I know depends on what the use is commercial could be a 12T ceiling it could be 15 ft it could be more and our code has always been 30 feet 35 35t yes some codes will regulate by number of stories and Fe some will use number of stories some will use you can combine it how you want but they did not have a number of stories plus didn't this get jiggled when we had these U um storage correct come forward but that was an exception that you made for that that wasn't relating to the number what was the exception U that we gave I thought it was 35 and that was it for the 10wn I can't speak to the S it's always it's always been 35 feet the there was a difference um I guess in 21 uh 20216 um there had been a reference uh that seems like um uh any if you were at nbg above 10 feet then that ate into your 35 ft so it when I read when I read this it says 35 feet from ground 10et ngbd or whatever your grade uh is below that so 35 ft yeah is the total from ground to tip of the roof that the building can be yeah but it used to be that is that what this says yes and that includes any apparatuses air conditioning there's exception there's exceptions for those things and Architectural features as well correct yes but not the addition of an additional story on top no it's like facades and things like that facades and mechanical equipment okay I think we have a public comment I see one sish but there was a change if you were at if you were if the base elevation was 17 ngvd prior to this ordinance can you please explain that in human language so I can understand what you're talking about that by the way they used to call sea level yeah this up yeah it's it's the old 10et above the sea level the generic the generic delay it's 10 foot above sea level but ngvd and navd are actually two different measurements and essentially where they come from is at some point somebody in someplace a lot higher than here decided that this is zero and so everything about this this is a foot two foot three foot four foot um and so that is the generic way they measure elevation vertical data so so does this mvg POS the possibility of adding 17 fet to the bottom of a the height of the building what it does is if you were at say for example 17 ngvd then the height of the building would be limited to 28 feet rather than 35 feet so it actually lessen the height of the building yes you can't have a mountain on your parel and build 35 ft gotcha so gotcha but yeah and it might not be a mountain you could naturally be that and I would defer to I would defer to Richard as to what the impact that is before you go on tell us what these letters stand for they must have a word that goes with them nav is North American vertical datm North American vertical datm and ngvd is National National geodetic vertical datm one was done in 1929 and one was done in 1988 navd is 1988 ngvd is 1929 okay origin sorry going to let Miss SSH speak because I'm sorry for interrupting you I just wanted to be clear on that before we start thank you Virginia SSH North Road so the history of this is when the storage building came to town and they came to town Council and wanted a height increase at that time the ordinance included specific language in it saying that finished grade exceeding 10 ft NV GD shall be included in the height calculation and it was specifically stated at that meeting that this was only to be done for the one building and then somehow that sentence was removed and it was applied supposedly and this is we're here for clarification as well uh supposedly that sentence has now been eliminated from the town code youc wherever was living before so the question is why was it removed for all structures when it was supposed to be just for that storage facility and will you be putting it back in thank you Mr s pleas Mishu 3765 EO so I think if I understood and I'm an engineer to but I don't want to step on anybody's shoes here there's a mean sea level if I understood the regulation is that from the sea level the building can be 35 ft high so if you are on a Higher Ground of course you can't build a 35 ft building on a mountain right so leaving that issue aside for a second let's look step back and look at the big picture here we are a rural town uh we have lobbyists who are working very hard to get us some benefits of being a rural town we are designated as a rural town we have a building code that some committee is developing beautiful we call it rural Vista Building Code so what I don't understand is how can we build a very tall building uh you know that is going to basically change our whole S Building scape the the in the night people are going to see some windows with the curtain and people are going to pop into each other people are going to peek into other people's houses it just changes the whole fabric of our town and and what I'm worried about people like I shouldn't say me but let's say another businessman looks at it and say oh wait a second they gave this building now 35 ft absolute which means I can put three floors maybe I can squeeze four why can't I do some multihousing you know some senior living or some section8 and are you going to discriminate me if I come with a section A or some other idea so you're opening a Pandora box that you are working so hard to protect this town so that developers don't come and make us another Wellington mall or don't make us another city but if you open this door there's no going back thank you anym no no I Believe Miss sui just put a comment up there oh there it is Cassie sui I don't have my paperwork with me tonight um so I did a lot of research on this and and um when I replayed all the transcripts for the um storage unit it was very clear that your intention as Council was to make the three-story exemption for the storage unit only the issue came up is when the developer was coming up and how difficult it was to understand and it was kind of weird language you know NV GD 10 feet which basically meant that they could only do 25t because it started at 10 feet and then went up so that's why they went an exemption and Robert I think was mayor at the time was very clear that this is this was only for this for the storage unit yes and then the comment came up we're going to have to clarify this maybe we can fix it the ordinance in town was for 35 ft for buildings however when you went to the definition of height you had the 10t nvg which dropped it down 10 feet and that was the clarification and so then I think it was two months later it came up and you guys eliminated the nvg I was sitting in the audience I didn't quite understand it till I started researching it a little more and what it meant and when you guys voted on it you voted to eliminate that sentence and the height then went to 35 ft and just what your planner said depending on the size of the rooms could be three-story buildings so basically you you eliminated the nvg at 10 ft which started it at 10 ft now all buildings are 35 ft or could be three stories depending on the size of the rooms so I would ask that we either clarify it by making twostory buildings in our H in our town which is I think was always Our intention cuz we don't want to keep building the these highrises or just putting the words back in and making it starting the uh measurements at 10 ft and vgd it's up to you guys but I don't think it from my understanding on those meetings it was never ever the intention to raise the limits of all the buildings so just a point of clarification uh one this ordinance says NV GD it's ngvd it's back the world letters are backwards but but if you go 10 ft so you use 10t as your Baseline and you're 35 ft above that your FEMA requirements your base flood elevation is 176 the Florida building code requires you to be one foot above base flood elevation so that's now 186 you get done with the health department they make you put your house at 21 feet because you have a septic tank most of the houses in this town are too high so single story houses will be too high because if you're at 21 ft finished floor and you're only allowed 35 ft from 10 if you do the math your house can't be bored than 12 15 feet tall well yeah because it's it's the the highest point of the house which is the roof can we just put language in that says two stories why can't we just add that 10 feet NV GB I don't care whatever feet but 35 5et Max two stories can't we can can we just put that in sure the two story it's in your packet the two stories nowhere in thatc no place because I remember when the storage came they wanted three stories and we said no you can only do two two it was a variance to go to three I could have sworn two was the limit not in the code call it a day you have something to say so I would like staff to go back to that meeting and review it I think that our attorneys did that which is how this memo was prepared okay okay and what you're giving us direction to do is go to another section in the ulc because the section that everybody is referencing to is the definitions the section you're asking us to really go to is the height limitation and so you want us to change where the height limitation of 35 ft is to no more than 35 feet or two stories period period what does that have on anything that's been presented to the ulc for moving what's already been presented to the ulc is coming back with an amendment and that Amendment as I understand it will be within the 35 ft so they will go through the process and be considered compliant I'm not saying they'll be considered compliant they may still need to ask for a waiver but they but it decision for project as opposed to an overall Sweeping in our right situation is everybody okay with that moving forward to having it change that way consensus consensus yes you go to if you go to two stories to the extent that there are any buildings in town that are three stories regardless of their actual height um they would become non-conforming correct and only one and we approved it as a three story right the storage facility Well that's part of the town I mean the hospital certainly but they're not part of the town so and how many stories is the pal Beach County School going to be the new dental school it's exam it's exam how many stories is the dental school going to be I heard five yeah I think it's so there you go but they're exempt I understand but it's still the front of our town and they're still in our town and it's still part of the look of our town yeah are they exempt because they're an institution State because they're at State College gotcha thank you all right so we're all okay if you just tweak that little so that it's very clear that two stories is full limitation yes so it's going to be section 20-4 with regard to height and as it reads right this moment as no buildings or structure or part thereof shall be erected or maintained to a height exceeding 35 ft in the agricultural residential AR zoning District except for those specifically accepted from height limitations are identified in section 15-15 exception from height limitations and that is the mechanical and engineering and Architectural features so we won't need this monster nvd keep that still need the definition otherwise all our houses two stories right after 35 F Well since it's not or two it's you're going to have a twostory limitation and a and a 35 feet you'll have both limitations that work in combination NV GD is not a common household word or letter could uh could the meaning of those letters be given also it's no longer in no longer in definition it's from finished grade in front of the building Oh I thought someone said that's how you previously measured it so it's a little cleaner and easier to understand and when you measure it just to finish and then bottom of there's a note in there that says if you have a burm is the bottom of it okay right good point yeah put a 17 foot so that's in there yes okay good okay Francine tell are you done Glenn with that with report thank you sir Francine okay you mentioned the grants the actual SU is a little less than 100 million I don't know I S one for like 70 actually you'll it's everything's Aster on the capital plan about something between 10 And1 15 million worth of it seems like it it you did you did we're also million there's also a couple other ones that are opening up um that we will try to make application for and additionally the local mitigation strategy um was approved by the county and um we had 10 projects included in that um and I believe that period of time to add more or adjust those is coming up and by having them in our Capital plan we will be ranked higher so that's that's good news um on October 1st I'm going to try to keep the agenda short so that we can kind of have some planning discussion for the coming year the agenda item I always put in the agenda that shows what's coming up on future agendas we really need to talk about them because you know we've been having some pretty heavy agendas um and I think that um we may all be in a little bit of um overload um the other thing I wanted to talk about is how we schedule the meetings for the coming year um we do have a number of applications coming in and one of the things um that I've been thinking about is maybe we make um a second meeting in the month solely for the planning items that we have coming forward so the business meeting is more business and the second meeting might be more planning just planning items meaning like some of the applications and then the final um comment that I'm going to make besides thank you for passing the budget um is that um our vulnerability Assessment program requires community outreach and that's very much the same as the community meetings that we've done when we've said hey we're going to do Paving you know what's important to you so um currently I believe that we are scheduling October 3rd and October 5th for open Community workshops where people get to come in and talk about their concerns or issues relative to to um what they think the critical Assets in town are or where they see issues relative to um our drainage um we will also have an update for Council on October 1st know about that are you gonna set out a postcard what what are we doing we were going to do it with social media um but we can certainly try to get a postcard out I think that that's really important because not everybody is on social media I know that's funny to say but we have a sign we have a significant elderly population that I would wager to say is not on social media we'll try to go ahead and get a postcard out right what we were trying to do is have one in the evening on a Thursday night from 6: to 8 and one on a Saturday morning for two hours 10 to 12 when did you say on a Thursday night from 6:00 to 8 I know but October 3rd and October 5th okay be careful with those States because that's what to check holidays yeah no we have to go up to that League thing I think it's October 3rd that's on yeah so we were going to maybe move it to October 2nd um okay but that might be cutting it too close for postcard so maybe we have to just get two new dates yeah and also um we're doing the big pre-storm cleanup or the amnesty days if you will for the site trying site triangle and vertical right away um overhang um and those two dates are um the first two Saturdays in October if I remember correctly and that's it for tonight thank you thank you all Richard so just last week was an interesting week we had on Wednesday five inches of rain which if you count the the Acres number of acres in this town it was over 600 million gallons of water in the course of about two hours that fell on the ground and then the next day we had seven inches of rain which put over a billion gallons of water on the ground in this town so if anybody you know a lot of people were coming in tonight talking about the flooding issues um I live in the North End of the acreage I live in the highest point in the acreage and my yard is underwater so the the flooding issue is not exclusive to lock atche Groves um we are working on it we're doing everything we possibly can within the budgetary and Manpower that we have to to you know mediate these issues I'm personally going out and doing stuff myself on top of trying to do everything else that I um Bill alsoa talked about the LMS grants the um County also passed the LMS ordinance and I went to the emergency management meeting today at the Emergency Operations Center which will require the and they told us that the it'll require the town to adopt the LMS ordinance that the county adopted all the municipalities have to do it similar to the way you guys adopted the Statewide Mutual Aid agreement with the state for eer for emergency assistance and all that stuff it's the same basic principle that'll probably be coming to you by like November so and other than that we're just chugging right along they've paved the first half of 161st um the contractor ran into some issues um so there're where they were supposed to pave the second half of it today or tomorrow uh but they had an issue with their Foreman um he had a family emergency and so they're going to start hopefully next week and then they're going to progress from there but if you want to see the quality of the paving they're doing half of 1601 is done the residents on 161st have called me I probably heard from about a dozen of them so far on the road and they are pleased thus far thank you okay Valerie no report okay phis um so I guess I was um going to mention that I guess Mr Pinto Fred Pinto was lost um lost his life this week and um I was thinking maybe we could send something from the town of loat Gres to Royal Palm not sure if you were going to bring that up for you to bring it up okay thank I think they're having a meeting tomorrow night it would probably be good for us to have a representative go there tomorrow evening I know I've got a bunch of stuff tomorrow got the mayor's literacy lunch and maybe I guess I can try to get there they have a meeting tomorrow night is that correct I believe so okay maybe we can come up with some kind of statement from the town and I'll try to go in their public comments and make a statement of condolence if that's something is everybody okay with that is there somebody El close to him that wanted that that job well jeffa is appointed as temporary as their mayor now correct I I don't I don't know that it was said to be temporary I thought it was until the next election do you know Francine I don't know but I think you're correct and he was just elected just elected yeah I mean just reelected I yeah he's been there forever okay give me a call if there's an issue you know can you um help with I'm have a lot on my plate tomorrow if you stat and yeah and give me a statement in a time I'll go and and make that statement on behalf of the town okay um unfortunately also um loxi Groves has lost a friend and um she was a very she was an advocate kid in Wellington and lived in Wellington we lost Cynthia Gardner this week too gosh yeah she was um Cynthia was an appraiser and a realtor and um also um fought for everybody's AG so um she was a true friend of lahi groves and I think I'm going to end it at that thank you phis duly noted New Order duly noted um yeah of council member comments oh I just read them down the line anyway um for those out in the listening audience still we have a group in the town called The Outsiders they are a drill team and what that means it's mounted aest and they do uh Precision movements that mimic um movements in battle and crowd control anyway they are having a fundraiser at redborne it's called flab FL lab Jacks and it is in October so I'll wait for the phone to wake up but anyway um it's a tax Swap and a breakfast fundraiser and um Katie Lakeman is very very involved in that so if you have any questions you can contact her and I'm stalling for as many words as I can think of to get to the screenshot and of course it's not in there but anyway Katie Lakeman and flabjacks um second comment is a question for Francine back meeting there was something that we were going to ask fact members if they wanted to meet before the end of the year was did we go through on that I know Tracy said she was in yes she did say she was in I I've only heard from one other fact member okay all right just check and I believe that Mr CTS is calling everybody tomorrow all right I'm still stalling to find the uh the date for the flab Jacks and learn how to use the dang phone are you done and then if you have it you can interrupt two more and I'm and I'll be done done but thank you um Virginia sis your comment about the a Tourism Committee I realize how it could ruffle some feathers but I support you on it we had originally talked about it being an ad hoc Committee of a four or five meetings and that was in 2023 and here we are in 2024 I think they've had how many meetings Francine is um the first group did their their full term and I think they had about five or six meetings and they gave a report to council um are newly um reconstituted three of the five are the same two new people they've had one meeting they're about to have their second meeting um I've reached out to the incoming new members to get comments from them so that we can have an agenda for the second meeting are they discussing the same things or have we moved on to new topics because like Miss standrew said there's there's State Statute and it's kind of a narrow Lane for us they reviewing the recommendations made by the first group so the two new members are reviewing the recommendations made by the first group so let's see maybe we'll get some comments yeah yeah it's still and then um I'm glad we made it through the RV ordinance I'm not happy with it but any Council can change anything from a prior council at least God we started this what last year may is and here we are oh my God that's 14 months but anyway we got it done so let's see where it goes that's it thank you did you no no I'm gonna hunt do just does the have a website it's for The Outsiders drill team I don't think it's on I'm not sure if it's on their property it might be on theirs and I'm not sure what you meant about the order duly noted because I don't do the order so I'm not sure whether that was a reference to me or whatever but nope okay Robert yeah Richard that sinkhole that opened up okobi by the church what was the resolution on that because Rod and bridges just filled it up with dirt again and this is something I told you about I don't know months ago that it was a pass issue every time that culber filled up there's obviously a hole in the top and it washes the dirt out and it yeah there's it's their cobbert um you know it's their you know yeah they fixed it they went out and fixed they fill it back in compacted everything else um and we can try to get with them and see if they can but they didn't dig it up right they just put in the as far as I don't know I don't know what they did uh we went out there we were there with the Sheriff's Office uh we put phones around it called the county the county came out and fixed it but I wasn't there when they did the work so I have no idea what exactly what they did but I highly doubt they dug it up I'm sure they just fill it in with dirt yeah there's obviously a hole there I just and somebody did fall into the hole a a vehicle this time thank God it wasn't a person because usually it's only about a one foot hole this time it was it was a few feet so I just don't understand why it doesn't get put on the radar for permanent repair I don't understand how that doesn't work I was hoping that should we write a letter to the county to the do it would be the county but I don't know if you've been down Royal pom Boulevard but you get north of 60th and there's a culvert that's been failing there four years five years and every time the asphalt gives out they just slap more asphalt on they've been doing that for five years so the list yeah know and everybody complains about that one they turn that thing into a speed hump like because they put so much asphalt on on that on that cber it's just north or yeah just north of tangerina where alich Boulevard it's the the the you can ask anybody who drives that road and that c has been failing for years and it's not Indian Trails problem it's the County's problem the county just doesn't fix it they keep banding it I don't think putting our head in the stand like ostriches is the solution either just because we know they won't do it can we prepare a letter yes we can prepare a letter and also since he brought up R pom Beach I want to remind you that we haven't forgotten about the um issue with Royal Palm Beach and on October 1st we're going to have that included in the updates thank you maybe we could include the police report this time with the letter that goes to them yeah yeah because that said they may have some liability at least okay thank you um you got anything else Robert I've been building a fence on my new property and I saw the guy driving by every day picking up garbage in the John Deere so at least the days that I was out there he was by so there was somebody traversing Our Town awesome um so hopefully U he's going back with um information about things that need to be fixed other than the garbage he picks up uh as far as everybody watching that called me I tried at least one good thing came out of it there's $150,000 uh being allocated to uh an area that came here and spoke up you know squeaky Wheels gu the GRE two people came here and uh so now there's um a project possibly and but like Richard said there's a process in place maybe we need to do a better job of communicating it but I I I don't think we could ever ask staff to do any more than what Richard's already doing as far as telling you the culbert size and elevation he's saving you all those engineering fees and he has the master plan in mind so when he says an elevation he's looking at which way the water's going to go and the neighbors driveway Culver he's not just picking a number out of the air he's stepping them down getting closer to the end of the road so uh please please please uh those people that that have a driveway culbert that's clogged and it's been there 50 years and you know it's an issue um it's a $100 permit reach out to the town let's try to get those fixed everywhere we can not just this one Road De that came here and uh raised the issue that's it thank you thank you Mr Shore Miss Miss Marge yes um when you write the letter to County if you're being specific to eoad um question the entry the Western entry into the fire station they've had these um uh caution uh things where the the Culvert is collapsing that's you know that's part of County yeah they're very well aware because they called us wanting us to fix it we like you need to call your mainus department County yeah um and and find out if they're going to be um blowing out the coverts you know maybe that's the maybe that's the problem you know and see if we can rent or blower okay um I have a a book that Wellington hands out for best management practice for horses and uh water protecting Water Resources I don't know whether we have a best management practice but I I'll turn this over to town and you can look at it and do whatever you want with it uh thanks March you're welcome and um 161st that's a great Improvement I drove up the um the East uh B Lane of it from one end to the other uh having to hop off when the uh southbound traffic wouldn't move over because they were on my side so so anyway um but I am concerned about the the drainage there I mean you did a great job from the a-road canal around the corner on to 161st and you can actually see the water I mean voluminous I mean it's like a river it's flowing it's got a current but then you run into all of this vegetation and and sunken uh Culvert driveway culs you know it's going to present a problem uh unless you continue on up the road it's being addressed so that's in the plan yeah we have to there's a number of trees we have to remove uh first so we're waiting for the budget year so we have money and you'll have enough clearance because you seem to have more room on the east side than you have on the West Side to do work after the fact yeah there's um two properties whose fences are encroaching into the easen one of them their fence is falling down on its own so we're going to finish it for them and the other and um yeah we're going to carry it all the way down so we actually realigned the road and centered it so where the road is is the center of the easan okay um the last thing is um we're trying to get a program together um for the elderly once a month coming to town hall for um a luncheon and discussion of their needs and how the town could uh be of assistance to the elderly so it's it's in the formative talking phase and the lgla um kind of threw that out there earlier and I ran it by Francine and she thought it was a good idea and had connections to getting County food delivered here well I don't get I don't have connections we are going to have to talk to them and see if we can be a site for the elderly lunch okay I stand sit corrected sit correct I just want to be clear we it's subject to being part of the program okay okay guys we had a few blips tonight few little temper moments but we got it done and I appreciate that we were all able to work together um and and come up with a resolution um I am attending the mayor's literacy luncheon tomorrow so hopefully I'll be bringing back some great news and some opportunities to the town and uh with that I think we will adjourn our meeting could I have a motion to adjourn second third all in favor are [Music] you the book whatever the book is I know it's important B