morning calling our uh pre-commission meeting to order at 8:00 a.m. on Friday April 19 good to see everyone this morning uh consent agenda for that is just looking at the minutes for 4924 any correction to those minutes all right gender item number nine is public here is going to be the final reading of ordinance 1167 it's also going to be the final reading of ordinance 1168 um there any questions about either one of those nine or 10 so I got a letter in my box I just read this morning about the the cemetery plots yeah I did see that seen that so I guess we just need to make sure legally we do everything we need to do make sure whether the discussion last time was it looks like it the Tombstones were just Monumental and there's no bodies in ground right so the burden is actually on that land owner to not to follow the law uh with regard to the annexation and the land use designation there's nothing that should stop the city's authority to move forward it's a policy of the state to eliminate enclaves so there and it's if this is an owner initiated application which I believe it is the city needs to continue processing it until he withdraws it okay um but there's nothing that prohibits you from going ahead and bringing the property into the City and giving it the land use designation the land use designation that is on the table for mixed use allows for public institutional and private so if there is a citer there that he wants to maintain or is required to maintain this land use will allow him to do that okay so I feel like from a city standpoint you're really good shap okay so the only time we might be concerned with is when they come with the development order to build on that's correct and I have encouraged we've all of the documentation we've received I've encouraged the city to send to the developer to go over with his attorney so that he's clear about his rights to property going for that's all I need to know all the monuments together that he make there's a family of potentially bued there I only saw paperwork for the Memorial monument for the father for and there was also some information saying that even if a thought the gra Memorial is requested 35 years that suggi and not to BU the body okay any other questions or comments on that n or 10 all right um in L of us probably having discussion on 11 and 12 and really more 12 um we held off on discussing the animals chapter this this meeting so that we can just focus on this and then we'll pick that back up for the next Mee so uh course final reading of ordinance 1169 any questions on number 11 I'm assuming that all the Forum and stuff that was crossed out is because it's going to be replaced what we're with potentially with what we're talking about number 12 right okay y yep yep um in and that's why we wanted to clarify last meeting um what it meant you know with those the strikeouts the underlines the bows with all that many citizens read through the ordinance to see what we're adding what we're deleting or suggested you know to be deleted until we vote on it so so yeah all that's put in put in 12 did it change from the last time we saw it this ordinance has on no yeah basically almost everything is the same it's just we're doing a resolution as opposed to Ordinance do one reading and it flushes out a lot of the text that you were striking through in terms of the rules for I mean there was a couple minor stuff but yeah well the only reason I'm saying that is I remember that um Mr Walker was at the meeting was upset of a sentence may be charged that but that was already in the previous ordinance so one of the things uh I think we got the email um and thank you City attorney for checking on that this ordinance as far as she can Dat Back was originally passed in 1996 so that was done in 1996 with so the ordinance we're changing and resolution you know all that's from 1996 so those are it could be later than that I think right that's as far as we could tra it was first adopted by yeah so essentially almost 30 years since we updated it updated it you know probably officially um and there's been some updates on it but I wanted her to I we asked her to do that so that the city could see how far back these rules have already been in place and that we're not just instituting rules and there was previous commissions that that could have address those with so um you know at that at that time and he did him and I did talk after the meeting and we also talked with uh infinger about it as well about that particular incident that he was referencing um that did occur um during during that time so uh so yeah but did you have particular concerns about that no okay so let's look at 42 through 48 which is going to be our resolution any questions in regards to the resolution we're just picking up on page 44 for the rules in regards to uh public participation in the quum I do I think it's number seven it says that if you combine if you have five or more that are talking want to speak that they're Limited to a certain amount of time or 10 minutes where' he come up with that 10 minutes I mean I mean if it's five people when they got three minutes a piece I mean they wouldn't have 15 minutes so where did 10 minutes come up um Chinese Kevin came up with it um and I the goal of this is just out of you know experience when you have groups of five or more sometimes their message is a little bit repetitive so if they're focused on 10 minutes um and they've got a big group it keeps the meeting running but also forces them to keep their message brief into the point they get more time than they would as an individual but as a group it does require them to sort of come together and unify their message just mean they pick one speaker and they get 10 minutes instead of three minutes basically one speaker two speaker um but they get 10 minutes as a collective group yeah you can this is your resolution so if you want to play with these numbers you certainly can but this is what Kevin and I are at least recommending as place to start yeah I mean 10 minutes is a long time well and and I I would say I think sometimes what we've seen has been if if it's individually like again I I always make reference back to our storm water meeting we had that was literally an hour and 30 minutes of public commentary after uh tropical storm Fred we had a evening meeting and it was literally an hour and 30 minutes of public commentary just on storm water so you have if it's the whole mod highing group that comes well it's 10 of us that's 30 minutes of public commentary because each person is going to come with a chart an outlay and they're going to take up their full three minutes um versus saying okay hey this is a group that represents this community um and then being allot at that so I might have read a little bit differently but the way I read this the intent of it is let's say you do have a group like we had that one about the feral cat group I remember right and instead of them going up each because it says may they don't have to it says may right so let's say this person's a really good speaker and we want this person to speak on the issue so we can make a stronger Point let's let's uh appoint this person to do that so they can speak the whole entire 10 minutes and to them it will probably be more effective than each one of them going up that sound right yeah because theoretically they could just say they're not part of a group and if there's five of them they could each individually go up for 3 minutes and get 15 minutes and you know I mean if it said you had to then I probably have an issue with it but it said you may don't have to do that all right any other concerns in regards to the uh the resolution yeah I have a few notes so uh right below that one on c um section what is it uh page 45 section c it says um something about a County Commission meeting room should we just have that say commission meeting or lint Haven because I don't think we can uh good catch I don't think we can tell them what they can do in other meetings um and then the next one is in section know what I had was in section uh or page 47 okay yeah page 47 at the bottom there number 7 I just suggest that maybe we add a little bit to that to say that um where it says it's not a question and answer session maybe we want to add something that says uh that a question can be asked but that an answer is not required because I don't think we want to give the impression that people can't ask us questions I think we just I think the intent here is just to say like the purpose is not a question and answer session right yeah I agree with that than too okay how I missed that one good CS any other uh comments questions regarding the resolution and not that we can't discuss it again on Tuesday just is there anything else we want to add to it or take from it or get clarity on so the signning sheets I know it's just public commentary but um when that going to start once we pass this resolution okay so that if we pass the next me meeting after right although they were although they are already required required you know like we can already Institute that um just so there be Clarity on how we'll be doing that that so that'll be the first meeting in May okay that we so once we pass it pass yeah if we pass the resolution in the first meeting you made we do that if this was originally uh updated in 1996 when did the sign in sheet fade away because as long as I've been on there's not been a signning she I would I would probably assume sometime doing mayor kiles or no it it faded away doing U Mr Whit Mr wh okay so that'll be doing when Margo okay so M Kelly they did the signing sheet and then during Margo's time or Michael White's time okay was your reason go all right um good question any other questions or no I'm not all right anything else on this one before we move on again on Tuesday we'll bring it back up for discussion of course we'll be voting on it so then that'll be time for public commentary public comment um I think from what I'm hearing a public comment from what I've heard I guess one of the concerns was about the that's was sign in sheet itself that was probably one of the only probably the major thing that I remember hearing from the last meeting and for some other previous comments is about the sign in sheet um are there any other concerns that you heard from citizens no the only thing uh I mean I've never seen it done so I'm just kind of visualize in my head how it's going to work but so all the way up until the meeting start time is when they can sign in and then once that happens they give you the sheet of all the signning and then you go through that right right and on there is what it's going to have name address usually topic top topic yeah what agenda item they'll be addressing so if you see a topic on there that's already on the agenda that's going to have open for public comment you'll know that hey this is going to be talked about there in the agenda not there in public comment okay right so we can make mention hey we're going to address this during this time right you can refer to it then okay which is sort of what we try to follow now right um is is that and sometimes uh some citizens either press for time or coming to the wrong meeting um like we had you know so I don't try to like beat a citizen up over it um but I think if there's successive you know 10 people coming up talking about the same issue hey we're going to vote on this in a minute we not vote on but we're going to discuss this later on in the agenda so oh one thing that you're reminded me of is one thing that we uh you have been asking when they come and say name and address right ordinance or this says uh name and municipality so I don't know if that's something that you can say address yeah just whatever whatever the intent was I just you know want to make sure we line up what theual intent is and I think yeah cuz I like address cuz if it's a big issue and we need to drive by and see yeah the ditch issue or something like that and I think the in the course I can't assume but I'm assuming the municipality or unincorporated area because if you just give me your address then I don't know where you live so someone comes from Callaway and just says this address um that we don't know where they live right so you can't liit speakers to your city um so you can either say the address where they reside and then ask is that is that Callaway is that pan City Beach you don't recognize it where you can require them to say Emy Myers pan City Beach so that you know right off so you could do and the war maybe is what you're saying if you how specific you want to be on the addresses you can tell them to say all of it it doesn't have to be either or we can say you know um 825 Ohio Avenue L Haven Florida and I think part of that is because if somebody comes up from somebody from Miami can come to our meeting with a complaint right um and if they just say whatever their address is knowing that addresses are duplicated you know I'm from 25 whatever Wisconsin Avenue then we're thinking this Wisconsin Avenue it's a person from Miami that's coming to complain uh and then now their influence because we do listen to our to the public comments and part of the feedback that I'm getting from citizens is people that are not citizens influencing our decision making on things that impact the citizens in the city of Lin Haven so then I said to the citizens well you need to reach out to the Commissioners that you know that's your opportunity to reach out give your opinion about something um and I'm not talking about a particular group of people I'm just saying that's I think that's what sort of that comes in so that we'll know okay unlike the county where everybody that's from Bay County is being influenced by whatever decision they make whereas if someone from Panama City or another unincorporated area comes yes they they drive through here yes what we do in L Haven impacts them but necessarily their tax paying dollars aren't going towards the decisions that we're making on spending our tax paying dollars you know at the same time so for example like with the splash pad um that might be a sour spot for some but I got more response from non lenh Haven residents about the splash pad than I did from Lin Haven residents people I know they don't live in Lin Haven we need you know what time is the splash pack going to be open what time is it what time is it I got more questions about our Easter egg hunt from n Haven residents what time is that going to be then in Haven the residents um and so I think you know and we do get a lot of those you know like Splash Pad times and things like that come from a lot of nonlin Haven residents it's not open it's not this it's not that well then do I go to staff and say well we need to open this at this particular time because someone from another municipality is complaining that we're not having it open when it's our tax it's our tax paying dollars that are paying for that so it's not just limited to the few that may or may not live in our area so this is not directed at any particular group as much as the principle of how much do we allow outside voices to influence all of our decision- making which impact the citizens you know within the community so um so we could do you know just give us your full address however that's where the signing sheet comes in right so that we'll also know right where this citizen resides you know in that and you can have a l Haven address and still be in Bay County that's true you know I was talking with a gentleman yesterday who says hey I'm in Lin Haven I came to vote but I couldn't vote you know he says I have Lin Haven address but I'm actually in the account I said you trying to you know fix that with the with the outling areas so and I think some of that came about during the um so so yeah there's many examples of of how we we're influenced um by Voices that may or may not reside in the area so should I keep it as is or should I add specific I think I say full address that's my op yeah I would just say you know full address yeah so you know we can add and if you really want to know they're in Lin Haven then just put on there do you have a Lin Haven trash can right you know how many people during the election season asked I don't know if I'm in Lin Haven I said just look at your trash can that's very true when you took After the Storm yeah yeah did I miss it on somewhere where it says who you give the sign in sheet too no so um just to give you some history of how that used to work you to do CJ's shop so about 4:59 I would walk back and get the signin sheet and bring it to the mayor and that will probably be what CJ does about 459 so we'll have a basket or something that no it's a signin sheet and you just set up like a Podium or something they sign in on it Mr Walker it's not like an individual St just sign and he'll be able to check that off of everybody that's there and uh CJ will get it and give it to um the mayor because at some other places they an individual yeah they have individual ones yeah some of them have cards yeah some have cards maybe something we want to say on Tuesday just so that the people that are upset about the signning sheet that it does say that you can still raise your hand and be called upon public commentary but the rest of it yes yeah yeah yeah you can't I think that might be Florida statute if I'm not mistaken you can't limit it that way can't uh if you have to allow public comment well you do but it's up to you how how rid you're going to be on your rules I've seen some boards that are so strict about the sign and sheets like literally as people are speaking they got here late they will just walk up in front of other speakers to hand their cards to the so now is your question I say just do it for public commentary not the rest that's my op you got it so have the sign and sheet for public comment because I think the Florida statute he's referencing is when we vote on an agenda item that is not limited I think is that what you're referring to yeah versus the limitation of public comment right okay so with public comment we're W to limit if I'm understanding limit that to who actually signs in yeah yes okay so I'm going to clarify that then to during public but during stuff on the agenda because even says it AR basically what it it stated already if I understand it right if you want a public commentary you have to sign in but if you want to comment on anything on the agenda encourage you to sign in but you don't have to you can just raise your hand well it'd be nice though to have a spelling of the individual's name their address because sometimes speakers come up and they'll Mumble their name and I like to keep track of who speaks not for any you know reason of Retribution or anything but simply I like to understand who speaking and what their issues are and sometimes you know I don't understand or where they live so if they're referencing the ditch or the I like to drive by to see the ditch yeah I agree all right anything else on this again we'll bring it back up Tuesday obviously and have discussion on it all right um so that that'll be our agenda for everybody get with this agenda for Tuesday okay I have questions about the warrant list all right all right that sounds good I guess Daniel's ready for me yeah have we finished cleaning out the uh Lake no ma'am okay the 4 and half in of rain didn't help us too much yeah bet okay um who's quinland Powell they're working on the sports complex phase two and U there's about $180,000 left on that and public risk management is that our uh that's our quarterly insurance payment okay liability and um Viper automation that was uh and I might need help here that was a a SCA it's can you that was the skada upgrades um I think the commission approved it last April and was back ordered and finally got in and done okay yeah that's all I have okay thank you all right thank you all right uh anything good for the good of the order um I do um I got an email about that 16th Street ditch R by there it is kind of a mess but it's also the street they redoing the sidewalk yeah yeah so did somebody respond back to this gentleman I didn't get any Emil we Mr Anderson numerous times um I do understand this concern there there is a little cleanup that we can do to kind of straighten the ditch out however he didn't want the ditch dug at all because he didn't have any storm water issues it was from the one you know several parles down that weren't draining so as part of this year's dis training is what we dug out um they did break the B pad that we're fixing and charging the contractor for and then we will saw out a little bit the edges to clean that back up is that Mr Anderson yeah I talked to him okay yeah I personally talk to her I I didn't respond I didn't know say so yeah I was kind of started I mean I looked at it no I personally talk to okay ises that over there remember that that Park months ago maybe it was over a year ago that was talked about um we at the delegation meeting ask for funding to the park that basically is going to have like a giant retention Pond and stuff jly Rogers the one over by B air States no um wasn't there one that we're going to oh you're talking about behind like M Highlands the Minnesota area the the one perno was talking with you all about Chris the regional um the Wetland Park the Regency company donated the parcel back or to us yeah so and we applied for legislative Appropriations that that we didn't get last budget year and then we actually just submitted a $750,000 grant to um niwi which is what North Florida water something one of those afterno um we've been meeting with Dr Jessica Graham from the Estuary program in FSU and um darl bu Daryl Buro um with Northwest Florida Water Management they both feel we have a great chance of getting this grant it's a non-matching um Grant to cover the design and permitting um now this they won't fund any of the design for the recreation side so it's just for the storm water Pond and all of the accessories with that and then we would have to go back later and do the The Walking path the I think there was a dog park a little playground and an observation deck um that would be through another Grant not this one but we did apply and hopefully we'll get the design money for for it and it's over there behind Minnesota it's right basically across from Kan Griffin okay that's what I thought yeah down yeah so like if I'm going down Arkansas and I hit that dead end right there Kane Griffin will be on the right it's like facing the front right there going down 17th streetware basic down go down where dead ends in Delaware right right all that Meadow right there so right where close to where that ditch was dug kind of just a little bit further down I know that ditch is 16 it's one more should be 17 okay okay um mayor so we did meet with the finance committee uh last week week before last I can't remember um and we did bring a couple of things to them one being um as you know I'm always looking at how we can um increase our revenue and one of those ways is you pay off debt um and so um Daniel and I were looking at a bond that we have the money to pay off except for SE um it's about $1.4 million left on that it split between three departments general fund has some of that the the majority of it um water and then sewer has like um a small portion of it uh so general fund definitely has its money to pay it off so does water but of course s does not at this time um I did save back uh probably about $800,000 from the arpa uh in terms of rainy day or wanting to pay off some debt uh and I wanted to let you know that we are going to go on and pay that off that just frees up more money in general fund and the water count and Sewer to be able to do that so speaking of financial review Bo RS at next meeting um I don't think they set one I think they were going to um sync their calendars so that they call me yeah and um who appointed Frank H whoever same yeah so um commissioner pebles you will need to find someone to replace Mr Hall on the um finance committee okay okay and and that was one of the reasons why now remember they didn't set the meeting we talked about we were going to get together and sing our C calendars so um if you want to put that on the next commit meeting think about somebody that you would like to appoint to that committee okay okay do you know what they're going to be going over at the next meeting um probably they looked at the budget they looked at the um the draft budget then they asked us to come back and bring an analysis of um the water and sewer uh since we uh increased the uh the rates and does the projection look like we said it was going to look in the next 5 years so I remember when we I think it when we you started the The Debt Review Committee mayor that we had a briefing about all the debt that we had right they talked about the disaster recovery Bond and and how much money um there were projecting that we would have to pay um this is me see how you what you guys think about it but I'd like them to look at the as far as the whole city rebuild and the FEMA reimbursement as far as how much we spent how much we get reimbursed and then what we're projected to pay out as a city because I know it's one of the things we talked about the financial review board if we wanted to add other things we could discuss it and task them with that if they if they're willing to take it on if definitely I I don't mind giving that to them I but I am telling you there's not don't want to make sure we don't give projections and then we don't stick to those projections and then someone get upset because his projections are not correct so we can surely give that information to them but as we talked to the auditor auditor said the same thing you're not going to be able to make a true projection till around 2026 we'll finish up with FEMA in 2025 you'll have a a better idea but we can Sur I'll give them everything that we have and see if they can um make a projection but I think between Dan and I we've kind of done the same thing I am going to include the $5 million that we were not reimbursed that's part of the the um part of that whole calculation that we didn't do the first time we didn't put that $5 million in there because we thought things were going to work out um so we'll make sure that they get that information and I'll I'll bring that to them okay um since we're discussing financing I I think I did mention this to you um maybe couple weeks ago so I have had a few citizens of course ask about the debt and of course we say hey our final debt to be paid off in 2047 um and some of them have asked I guess in regards to the the loan for the 17th Street ditch project um that they initially thought that it was for 20 years but now it's for 30 years and so some of asked how did it go from being a 20-year loan you know when the city or the Commissioners approve it from going to be a 20-year loan to a 30-year loan um and then also with it being not paid off of 2047 I know the debt Review Committee looked at it previously although it's a low interest rate will we actually pay more interest over that period of time because we're still looking at another 20 years before it's paid off versus another loan that might have a higher interest rate but a shorter payoff time period would we actually pay more in interest on this loan and would it be advantageous for us to look at possibly paying this loan off um prior to the 2047 so that we might have a savings so guess there two things one one was it actually change from a 20-year note to a 30-year note when did the commission approve that um and then would it be to the city's advantage to pay this off early um would it be a savings for us if we paay it off early in comparison to obviously it would be a savings but in comparison to looking at other loans that might have a shorter lifespan on those but still we be paying less in interest how much was that loan for the 17th Street heard 10 million then I've heard 20 million I don't think it was that much from the numbers I've seen with um in city city manager we she has the print out of it I so you have the original loan amount but then there was some work that had to be done so then it was more added to the original loan yeah so I think it might have been like maybe 3 or 4 million total might have been you know 3 or 4 million with the loan might have been out I didn't see 10 million on there but you know 3 or 4 million and I think it was at like a 2% interest rate um is what it was at which was a low interest rate but then you're taking that interest rate over now what we're seeing is a 30 year period of time um so uh but I thought some money was borrowed before the storm it was borrowed right before the storm before any of us were on it even up here it was Bor once and then added to it and mayor's asking for that date when it that we add and went did from it went from 20 to 30 year and I I have that information okay yeah I say we look at all of them not just that one we look at all of them see which one's most advantageous to pay off to save us the most money you know I know there's a lot of I get kind of confusing CU yeah that is where we will bring our Financial Consultant which is John Mis in and he is the one that will look at the he looks at them yearly yeah and he gives us a recommendation so that's that'll be something that we'll meet with John about um would you want to pay off the ones that had the highest interest rate typically typically we do you can but my question is if we're paying on so when we discussed the loans uh we had this discussion three years ago when we organized de Review Committee and the recommendation was because we did talk Z about paying that loan off um and the recommendation was well it's not the highest interest rate my question is although it's a higher interest rate so for example if I if I get a loan from you for you give me a 10% interest rate and I get a year to pay it off but then you give me a loan for a 5% interest rate but you give me five years to pay it off am I actually paying out more in the 5year period that I'm actually paying off in the one-ear period based on how much is the loan so so that's what I'm asking is mortgages with a 15 and 30 year mortgage right am I actually paying off more interest um you know is it costing the city more money to have a lower interest rate but a 30-year payoff versus a two cuz all of the interest rates are low I mean they're you talking about 2% 2.1% 2.5% and then if we think the interest rate is too high now we can go back to the banks and say well hey this bank is going to offer me this if I refinance with them or if I refund with them versus you so then we could maybe even use that as an opportunity to lobby with some of the banks on getting a lower interest rate um but I think that would be a good review cuz we haven't looked at that since we organized a debt Review Committee um like just look at all of our they and and one of the reasons you haven't looked at it because really a lot of the debt is in sewer sewer doesn't have money to pay off debts so um it's been in your Enterprise fund so you can't take general fund money to pay off debts and Enterprise fund and so once we pay off this money that's in general General will have no more debt except for the disaster recovery and general is very healthy um and so um storm water has been the same way you're not really founding money there unless uh you take it from reserves um which is fine but when you look at Water and Sewer those are the areas most that you want to be careful with but we will get with John and set up a meeting and U his recommend and I know he's looked at that before and so has the Commission in the past that particular loan of that loan being play paid off so just the three the the loan that I was talking about that'll now take our our debt down closer to 41 almost $40 million as opposed to 64 million five years ago yeah now we I think we've done a good job of managing our debt and um and getting our debt down and getting clarification on what debts did we have cuz I think sometimes people forgot you know some of the references were the general fund numbers and not just you know Enterprise the Enterprise funds as well um and when you asked about the uh the regional Pond engineering it did bring to mind I don't think I if if I mentioned this and we might have but it's good to knowe one of the things that city manager and I um learned as we were meeting with our um political or legislative consultant um one of the things that we learned is that although we have our our budget divided up in different funds once it gets to the state level like we have storm water separate than sewer well when we make so we're we might make five different requests you know hey stor Mor here sewer here but at the state funding level it's all in one pot yeah so then what they see us doing is making four requests for the same pot of money as opposed to our budget says this and that so this year um when we learn of that we did actually add a few more fun things I think we had something for the fire department that we asked for um I think something we might asked something for the the PD yes um and that's when we brought up things for the uh for recreational um just to try to get more diversification and our asking um because of that so uh we did you know unless something changes we still got to keep our fingers crossed and we did get the allocation for roads um but that's part of the challenge in getting steart sewer storm water and all that is actually coming out of the same the same pot of money so um so yeah just just thought about that anything else for the good of the order yeah I had a couple other things one um month ago we talked about the agenda adding stuff to the agenda process and that we're we're going to bring that back when are we going to bring that back that was that's part of the resolution or that's what we would add to the resolution so we're just so this would be the time add that too okay yeah yeah I'd like to add where I know we had discussed it about um agreeing to it the pre-commission meeting but I remember obos was like well if there's any disagreement then you got to take it up on Tuesday meeting so I like to have it kind of like the way Panama City does it where you add whatever you want and then you agree to it on Tuesday so then we have another vote on it on Tuesday no that's what you just said though we wouldn't have a vote on until Tuesday okay so don't discuss it during the pre-commission you can discuss it but I mean that's the way I got it from the pre-commission meeting because I went back and I relistened to it as far as what he said and then because I think I don't know if it was you or me one of was brought up like okay what if if can we vote on it they're a pre-commissioning because we voted I remember we had discussed a pre-commissioning meetings we didn't really want to use this as a a voting Forum right so I'm okay with voting on the pre-commission meeting but I don't know if legally we can that's why I ask so here's the thing with voting we can vote at any time we just have to have public commentary that's the only thing so right now if we want to vote on something we could we would just have to follow the procedures ofing the public participation yeah I mean if that's the case if we got a low of public comp that's why I asked if it was legal we got a allow public commentary then I'm in the opinion M will just wait till Tuesday to do it got it cuz how many people are going to show up to the pre-commission Mr Walker so but that's that's your public comment so and I'm a little confused because I thought we had all agreed that we would basically just outline the procedures which we had followed which was send things to you know city manager put together the agenda on Friday look at the agenda and then have a consensus for it and then if there's something additional that wanted to be added then we could vote on that to be added like Robert R of water on Tuesday prior to the meeting so I thought that's what we had discussed I'm just so you just want to see it on paper that's fine yeah I'm okay with that so that so that's why I'm a little confused on so so what you're saying if I understand you correctly is we can add it add it to the agenda bring it to the pre-commission meeting we bring it to the pre pre-commission meeting if we don't have consensus that we don't have then if four of us say uh I don't think we want to discuss that during Commission meeting then it's not on the agenda okay so you're you're what you're saying we vote on at the pre-commission meeting not necessarily a vote just consensus just a discussion of now we can take an official vote if that's what we want to do um but hopeful so here's what we're trying to get to is hopefully the commission has enough respect and relationship that we can sort of say you know that we're trying to build a rapport with one another mhm that we can you know have a discussion and say uh I don't think we want to discuss that and if three or four of us agree with that then we could officially make it a vote or we could just say okay hey we're just not going to discuss that on the agenda right um and is it something that we can just discuss you know like we're discussing now and then if that person wants to bring it up again on Tuesday then they can bring it up again would it be officially voted for not voted for um cuz you may not want to turn to Friday meeting meetings into just voting on particular things right cuz not only that that we don't always have pre-commission meetings either sometimes I mean sometimes we get cancel because we don't have a whole lot to talk about you know right I get it so um I mean if we're going to formalize it whatever we do that's what we need to abide by you know but there's a big difference I'll just be straight up there's a big difference between trying to add something to the agenda and trying to delete something uh remove something from the agenda big difference what's the difference and I'm only asking because it's still the same voting procedure it is the same voting procedure but well hold on if it's the same voting procedure then hold on so let's just say we use the example what happened we all know what we're talking about right I want okay I want to add something to the agenda okay and you decide not to add it through the agenda right cor so the only way I can get to the agenda request it from the commission and I say this what I want to add to the agenda get a second you vote on it and you got have three people correct now if you already have added to the agenda and you say and then someone speaks up and says I don't want that on the agenda I want it removed someone seconds it then you got to get three votes to remove it right it's a big different dynamic in that as opposed to trying to add so someone might be more apt to I don't want it on the agenda but when you go to try to remove it they may not be as at to remove it from the agenda got it so this is more personal then versus not personal no I'm just CU it CU this let me say this has not been an issue until that became an issue so to me it's more personal than procedural cuz this has been I'm only saying this has been our procedure since I've been mayor this has been a procedure since before I was mayor but then it became something personal so this is more personal than procedural is how how seeing this which is fine if we admit that it's personal but let's not let's not use this as an opportunity to do something personal versus looking at the procedures of it no so because this has been our procedure for since before I became okay so let me ask you this is when I was brought up you didn't know what to do right because this has never been a problem so you had to get with the the the attorney the City attorney to determine do we add this to the agenda or not and it was correct hey do we add this to the agenda do we want to publicly discuss hold on do we want to publicly discuss the termination of an employee that's what that's what that's what the issue was do we want to publicly discuss the termination of an employee do we want to go on record with our opinion about whether or not employee needs to be terminated so in talking with the attorney hey you probably don't want to put that on the agenda and then the commission agreed not to put that on the agenda as a discussion for the termination of an employee right so but when when the discussion came up no one knew what the actual process was the process for putting it on the agenda to as far as whether you can add or remove something from the agenda Y and you're like wow we got to go by what Robert's Rules of Order says correct that's what we defer to in our declement we refer defer to that which is if you go to any meeting the agenda is there if you want to add something to the agenda say hey chair I like to add this to the agenda before the meeting starts or once the meeting is called to order hey chair I like to add this to the agenda you vot that's standard procedure for any meeting you're talking after the agenda's been made cor this is before that this is before the agenda was made and I asked add this to the agenda was before the agenda was made when I asked to have it add okay so you're saying we don't know the procedure for that is that what you're saying cuz I'm trying to follow going to eliminate that now because we have a procedure we're going to discuss it at the pre meeting now right to add right so we can't undo what happened in the past yeah I mean no I got that what I'm saying is when we do them the pre-commission meetings and let's say let's say you know we disagree on whether to add something do we have to vote on it or we just going by what do you think what do you think you'll have the opportunity to take the temperature of the room based on what the reaction is and then you can make a decision whether to add it to the agenda on Tuesday night knowing well it looked like I had three three votes yes that want to talk at least talk about it and two that didn't see no so who makes the ultimate decision whether it's added to the agenda prior to the meeting I don't know so here here's what we're saying for the for the procedure is Staff city manager mayor okay hey like we did today hey here's the here's the agenda if there's something that you would like to add to this this is the time for us to discuss that we want to add this to the agenda all right so this is the time for us to discuss that as she mentioned consensus reading the temperature in the room that's what I mean by consensus reading the temperature in the room if the majority of people and we can take a unofficial vote and say hey what do you think abouten City the agenda no I don't feel like it I don't think it should be added what do you think H I don't know what do you think no what do I think yeah yeah and so then like okay well if there's no major objection let's add it to the agenda or if there's indifference let's not it to the agenda so I will say for my piece for whatever it's worth if you are charged with preparing this agenda you don't have the authority to put on the agenda anything that is not within your Authority so the termination of an employee if that is the example given that's not within unless the employee is her or me I don't know that you have the authority the board doesn't have the authority to take action on that you may discuss it and I would say that this pre- agenda this Workshop isn't a appropriate form to discuss items particular I want to talk with you this is exactly why I wanted to talk with you about this um so this is the perfect Forum to do that and share those opinions and have a discussion because it's it's in the sunshine and you can talk about it but it's not within your authority to act on that and so for Vicki's standpoint and preparing the agenda I would advise her it's not within their Authority don't put it on the agenda they can't take action so so we as a Mission cannot direct the city manager to make a decision on an employee is what you're saying that's correct that's with in her Authority okay and that's per Florida statute uh that's in your Charter I believe she's charged with the administration of the city okay but the charter the charter says she gets to appoint the department heads with the advice and consent of the commission right but we don't vote on the Departments yeah so okay what does that mean a viice and consent on the commission then because since I've been on the commission and since I've been coming to meetings I have never seen I've never seen them vote on it so and and we've hired people and I've never been approached by it so how does that work in my interpretation I would say that she has a duty then to advise you right of what she is planning on doing I'm planning on hiring this person um but it say it's not voted on no but it says it's just information I don't know your history but I would be surprised that you voted on US History has been when a department has been hired I do like I always do hey I'm thinking about hiring this person here we've gone and you know that I contact you every time I've done that i' haven't had too many department heads to leave but the ones that have I call you guys tell you they're leaving and then we're going to go through this process when we find somebody else say this is the person we were thinking about hiring if you say oh God I know that person you don't want to hire that I'm surely going to take that but if I get a consensus one by one that you're fine with that that is the way it has always been interpreted in the charter that I have a consensus um that is what you know the previous um attorney said as opposed to Kevin as well and so that's the way I get your consensus it's not a you you don't vote on it that feels that feels appropriate to me because she knows too then if that she does not have consensus there are three or four five of you that don't support this appointment and she does it anyway she she knows she's at risk at that point because you can startor disciplining her and taking action against her for making bad decisions so advising consent doesn't mean voting on it not my mind no never has been I don't know so is your concern if you want something on the agenda and consensus says no are you asking do you still have the authority to bring it up at the meeting yeah me or we can always talk about during our reports it's just but in the past yeah all I did was ask and say I want this on the agenda and it's been added to the agenda right this one let me say let me finish this first is this one I asked for it I didn't hear anything back and then all of a sudden I got the agenda and I'm looking for it and it's not on there and I'm like well what the heck happened and that's when I emailed the city manager I was like where's my agenda item the decision was made and I wasn't even informed about it I didn't even know anything about why the decision was made until after that so that's why I was upset about it I'm like what's going on and so I was like well that's why I asked the the the question of what is the procedure to add something to the agenda and I think that's where I'm kind of going around in circle about this is can we as a commission add something to the agenda who is who makes the ultimate decision as far as before we come here and talk about it at the pre-commission meeting or the actual commission meeting what can be added deleted or modified generally it's a city manager I don't know that specific answer off the top of my head without looking at your rules but um my gut would be that Vicki makes those decisions but nothing should be put on the agenda that we don't have the authority to follow follow through with is that what you're saying when she's preparing it um I would encourage her to limit the agenda to things that the council can take action on that the commission can take action on um anything else can be part of her report um to let you know what she's planning on doing because it's within her Authority and certainly as you said during the commission report you can ask questions of what she may be doing on an item and express your opinion on them I don't know I just I was under the impression that we can direct the city manager to do something since we we are her boss all five of us are her boss and so we can't direct her not just any employee I'm talking about just department heads because it says advice and consent of the commission the charter you do get to direct her um but the hiring and and she has to act according to what your thoughts are on that um but the decision to terminate an employee is hers and not Ys ultim right right so I guess his question is if we would have voted and directed her to fire Ricky Ramy would she have to go fire Ricky Ramy that I think that's I don't think she I don't I don't think she asked it but then that's so so that's that's the specific question that it's if the commission votes and say fire Ricky raying y does she have to fire Ricky Ramy and if she doesn't fire Ricky Remy what happens so so so that's the real question not just it's if we do that and if you need more time I'm I'm not trying to put on I I feel like I I'm pretty confident of my answer but I would like to reserve giving it okay right now if you don't mind understood so we can bring it I bet each one of us have already expressed to her right but we just we have but that's the advice and that's the advice and I understand that and I'm not being funny or sarcastic anything we really are trying to get clarity for the question that um commissioner work is asking and that's the that's the clarity is if we direct her to fire Ricky Ry or fire another department head right you know I always pick on Chris Lightfoot hey man you know it's too much poop running down my street and if we direct her so so let's maybe be a little little less volatile than choice if we direct her to fire Chris Lightfoot as an department head and she does not fire Chris white foot that's where the question really is if we direct her to fire one of our department heads cuz we probably wouldn't be you know asking her for another employee but the fire one department heads does she have to follow through on that because it's a directive order from us and then if she doesn't follow through on that what then would be the consequences of that okay I think is that in line with yeah yeah I I believe I'm not a legal expert which is why we have a City attorney but I believe even if we direct her to I don't think she has to so that's the that's that's the question is how much Authority do we do we have in our direction to her I will I will answer that question but I don't want to do it right here yep I understood I no problem I get it y um any other last thing I got is the comprehensive plan when are we going to go over that so once we get finished with this we're conferring with Florida State on their availability and then we'll work start working through it then so do we know the deadline yet far as when we got to have that turned in it's in 2025 so sometime in 2025 yeah do we have another assignment I like plan so um continue to start working through the animal chapter I say animal chapter but uh continue to work through that and we'll be discussing that at our May meeting um so we've we've discussed sections one and two then we're going to move on to um sections three and and work through that so and is T here today yes okay uh T could you give us a I know you and I had some email exchange about the chickens um and some clarity on that language with chickens and Ducks um cuz I did have somebody said well I can get qus now and I think they were joking but they were joking I know we had some emails about that yeah I spoke with Courtney and I said that there has always been and she's not sure why chickens were separated from from Ducks I asked is there any reason why Ducks can't be included and it she said none at all that I can find okay so that was that's where I wanted to make sure we clarified okay so we do want to add the language of ducks there so it can be yes sir okay but not just all filed in general we'll end up missing something somewhere got it so um so that's the email exchange we had after that discussion so we'll be adding chickens the language of chicken and Ducks to to that yeah and and I think I emailed you if we're going to do that um we just need to make sure that we put in a stipulation for um to prevent new new Nu senses I smell what heavy needs to be cleaned out weekly that kind of stuff yeah so got it um and I think there was also clarification on the rabies I think we clarified that that although there are threeyear shots it still has to be that and I did misspeak um okay when commissioner vender asked about I looked it up quickly on my phone and it said 12 months okay the second shot has to be within 12 months after that can be a threeyear okay yeah so I misspoke on that okay all right so I guess we just clarify that language and that's per florid the statute right correct all right so let's just if we can just clarify that update that to to to mirror that mayor can I answer uh commissioner Vander Griff answer as she asked a question about how much that loan was um it is a total of $5.1 million um we start off paying $14,000 a month now we're up to $211,000 21 a month and it does not end until what mayor said I think it's 2020 2047 yeah and the interest rate is 2.55 my bad I thought it was 2 2.55 got it um okay uh a little Clarity um last commission meeting uh a statement was made that I took a campaign donation and then signed a development order eight days later meaning I'm assumption that that campaign donation influenced me signing development order so uh I did ask CJ if she could get with staff on clarifying because I I don't remember any of that if she get with staff on clarifying that um so I did receive a donation but we didn't sign the development order until November 20 November 14th 2023 um so basically that I guess that's a citizen of Haven um basically that's a lie um now so so let me ask you this um City attorney so I'm not talking about for like litigation or anything like that but someone comes up and makes that statement that hey took a campaign donation signed uh signed a development order turns out that basically that's a false statement is that like slander I mean because you're coming at me with my integrity at that point so how How would how how should I respond to that again I'm not talking about trying to sue anybody I don't I don't have time for that at this point but just asking how do we handle that cuz that happens quite often where people come up and basically just lie my recommendation would be to create a public record whether that's an email chain that memorializes in fact this is what happened so it's in the public record forever alternatively you do have the opportunity to address it at a public meeting however that sometimes gives it more energy and fire and the conversation never ends right um but these conversations even if we don't address them they still don't end it's true so I'm want to say because that's November and this is April and we're still having this conversation the rights of the speaker are greater than your right to diminish it in any way so you I'm not trying to diminish it I guess I'm just saying there's no way to stop it and the threshold for slander is very high for a public official I understand that I'm just asking in the general term not as a public official is that slander if a person lies on me is that slander it has an effect on your reputation and is not based in truth then yes it does have effect on my reputation well I think it's correct me if I'm wrong but I think the standards are different for elected officials than just regular residen it it has to be defination or malice to be malicious I understand that and without regard to the truth of it right I understand that I'm not talking about for litigation purposes not talking about that but just saying it's still a false statement and so we have a lot of those that happen it's true and so it's not just okay because what happens is you're going to take this statement and we don't isolate it they're going to compound that with other statements that are being made that happen over a three-year period of time so I get it the threshold is high so I'm not so it's not just one statement and it does affect personally because I have a job outside of this right that it can affect at the same time that is based on Integrity I I'll say this and I I totally agree with you but that's not fair and when I I shouldn't say it's not fair when we signed up to do this I think we knew what we were signing up for when we became elected officials there's a lot of risk involved with we make what $155,000 a year and you make7 $18,000 a year you make more than that not enough yeah so so I I think uh as elected official we sign up for that we know that those are the risk that we take and it it stinks it does and I remember reading up on on it I'm not a legal expert I'm not trying to be but the way I read it is as elected officials and only only way that you could recourse that you may have as far as defamation is it's you have to prove malice which is very very difficult to do and uh sucks I I get it without regard to the truth it's the legal standard and again we're not in the litigation context but it is very high for I tolerate does require the Toleration of a lot of are not I I understand that but then if it impacts another's job that's what I'm saying not just in I have another job that it could impact if my employer thinks that I am actually doing the things that I'm being accused of doing I get it and no I don't know that there's any recourse for you my recommendation remains to make the record straight in the public record so that when your employer asks you can say here was allegation here is all of my evidence that it was not true okay does he do that at a meeting that is his that is his prerogative I recommend it it happened V via email and the creation of public records sort of behind the scenes um so that it doesn't compound yeah I get it um I use another example is like the financial disclosure we got to fill out this year I was I filled out most of mine and I'm just like I found out later I didn't realize this you know I have a trust for my parents and so I called the ethics commission I got to put that on there so I had to call my parents and tell them hey I got to put this information on there that's not fair to them you know and uh I think that's why a lot of people dropped out uh throughout the State of Florida I to me I I think it's it's horrible I don't think it should ever happen I don't have a problem showing people what I mean only time I had a problem with is when I had to show my parents information now and I I'm not I'm not good with that now I have to um and you know people can take that information I'm sure they're going to do it with mine they're probably going to do it with the rest of us and they're going to look at it and they're going to make certain accusations about it and I think I think it's just a risk you take with political office I mean and I think that's why I don't know I that's why I think you get a lot hard time getting a lot of people to run for office I wish we get more people to run for office but unfortunately but it also works the other way sometimes people take the political advantage of it too I'm not making any accusations here I don't think any of us do that here but there are other politician local politicians that do take advantage of so and what is the political Advantage here not here nothing unless you do I've yet to find it yeah me too how many times do I come to the commission meeting I open up my man and I'm like not no bribes today even get hey guys we get a Bott that's true we get a bottle yeah we get a bottle water so I get it I get it yeah I totally get it but I think it's just a risk you take and and I and I understand all of that but it's but I'm just asking because it's uh it it compounds and so it does impact the other job that I have at the same time CU people don't know what's true and false because a person could because what Happ people come up they make an accusation they have a few documents or they sound like they know what they're talking about and so then people take that and they run with that um so yeah so just just asking like I said not for litigation purposes and I do because I've read all those statutes that slander um malice malice and all of that defamation um and then you know get into liel if people write that you know those type of things so there most them I don't pay any attention um but you are coming up publicly saying that if it's on social media I don't really care about that a whole lot um but then you're coming up making a public statement in front of some people that are actually part of my employer so it gets real sticky with that um because again it does impact my other employment at the same time so we'll be crii we'll be criticized for this discussion we're having what yeah yeah I take back everything I said I didn't mean it late all right anything else for the good all right awesome we'll see you all on Tuesday um what color shirts we wearing Sam dark blue all right dark blue closest you can get all right we'll see y'all Tuesday