e good afternoon everyone it's uh Wednesday May 22nd 2024 at600 hours and this is the Board of Commissioners budget Workshop meeting city clerk we call the role please mayor rosc present vice mayor Brooks here commissioner tagini commissioner Kerr here commissioner McAn here all are present except for commissioner tagini right mayor commissioner tarini did I forwarded an email due to his medical that he would not attend this meeting but hopefully he'll be here at the 6 PM meeting all right well there's no one in the audience public comment wise so I guess we can move to item four thank you mayor and this is our second public budget or second budget workshop for our fiscal year 2025 uh budget and the course at any time please if any of you have any questions please feel free to ask uh or any comment as well um we are here to provide the information that is in the agenda packet but certainly we can answer any other questions on anything related to well it could even be this year's budget or certainly for next year but the purpose of this Workshop is to focus on the capital uh budget and what a little bit of where what has occurred in the past you have a 10-year history um what we're looking at for next year and then the five subsequent fiscal years thereafter just to give a snapshot of what that looks like and as part of the the entire financial planning part of our budget and again certainly if you have any questions or any answers please feel free to chime in and City staff is here in the back uh pretty much the Departments that have had or have capital projects um as well as uh Mr Laughlin our uh finance and City Treasurer Finance director firm so I'll turn it over to Andrew to go over the information great thanks Robin so as Robin mentioned the plan here is we're going to talk Capital uh and so what I want to do we'll just go through the agenda so the first it in the agenda is just to give a look at a 10-year capital outlay expenditure history just so you can get a look and feel of over the last 10 years what have we spent and you just kind of you know see from the trend we've had some bigger spend years and some lower spend years which makes sense just depending on the nature and magnitude of the projects in that any particular fiscal year but obviously it can vary quite a bit from year to year year and then uh item two is just the uh capital projects budget overview we'll just kind of look at that page I just kind of condens it all on one page and then item three is where we'll go in more in the detail and the description of each project and I think what I like to do there is we can just go through uh each one and we can have the the uh relevant department head uh come up address questions on each of those items as we go through like Building Services parking uh s ation Etc and that'll give you all a chance to uh address each project ask questions um and and of course we can come back remove refine edit add um and then take that to the next um budget workshop for June and that's what I have an item four and and for Preparation so we'll take I'll take those notes anything that we want to get uh amended updated uh added or removed that that'll be reflected in the next in the materials for the next June workshop and at first I thought a bit aggressive but I'm going to try to push for it is to have a complete budget for that June Workshop so have an estimate of revenues operating expenses personnel and then of course the updated Capital to give you kind of a rough outline of a complete budget so that way you'll have a little better understanding of okay here's what we're talking about spending from a capital standpoint but where are we on on Revenue is forecasted for fy2 uh you know to enable that you know what does our funding look like to make that happen so I want to give you more of a complete picture as we're working through now I'm working with the departments on their uh operating expense uh requests going through our roster for personnel and then forecasting Revenue so we're going through that process as we speak currently want to kind of get that refining completed the next couple weeks and then assemble that uh uh more complete package with multiple schedules Department detail etc for the June workshop and I think that'll help also with decision making on on uh if we're deciding to add more projects or cut or or what have you so that's the that's going to be the plan for the June Workshop questions on any the agenda items sounds good we'll roll right into I have a question oh hit me just to um from memory uh 2020 and 2021 were kind of big years 2019 that whole area there is that is that due to the crystal Island uh roadway project kind of stretched over maybe three years yeah that's when we issued the debt so that's what I'm going to assume is was was the the big driver for that I can pull up those audited financial statements and see the actual Capital activity so I can confirm that but that's my understanding just generally speaking because we have um as you get further along in we have area nine and area four coming up which are big numbers did we get financial Grant did we get any kind of Grants on that matching grants do you know for I'm for which areas Crystal oh for Crystal I don't think so right but we have going forward since the for future ones but not for Crystal Drive so that is that what you're asking for area area 9 and area four we we have uh grants coming we've received M from the state Appropriations which are the areas that okay so three and six we have a we conf three and six okay six is four million okay I'm just looking at these s million items that are coming up and I want to try to get ahead of it that's the whole point of the of the questioning if we can I don't and I think it goes to I don't see it on here about um hiring a grant writer I thought we were going to put that in the we work discuss yeah yeah yeah that's not a capital it but we'll we address that when we go through operating in the next budget okay I I just wanted to get the thought process out there thank youer got it so just looking at historical Capital La I just provided a 10-year history just so you all can see obviously very project driven um more recently uh much less activity in 2024 23 uh 2022 um a little bit more now of an uptick in 24 year to date we did have a large budget uh capital budget for 2024 that was about 21 million that we budgeted uh the 2.2 million is what we spent uh through I believe early May when I ran this 2023 budget was about 12 million 2022 budget was about 5.7 million um so again depending on what what we budget and then projects getting put on hold um you know that's there can be a pretty wide gap between actual expenditures resource availability supply chain issues status of projects changing um a lot of things can go into that with regard to budget versus actual variances on Capital related items but at least that just gives you a little bit of picture of what the city's been spending in that range over the last 10 years the next page going into the uh the next agenda item um I mentioned our budgeted ex Capital expenditures in 2024 was 21 milon 262500 so what we have now here in fy2 is comparable that's 20, 75,500 as we can see a lot of that is is dominated by a few projects um you can see in this page what some of the the larger items are um but that's ultimately the the total that we're looking at and we have that broken out uh by fund by fund and then project name the top of the page should say FY 2025 sorry about says 24 correct should say 2025 preparation year FY 24 yeah we're in fiscal 20 that's on page six and Page seven yep those are for TW fiscal year 2025 next year y apologies for the the header uh mistake there so yeah this is for next next year 2025 so then now going into to the next agenda item this is the more the detail behind it that shows the account number we're hitting um account name project title and more on the project description and I try to expand it landscape it and uh create page breaks so hopefully you can see uh because I know there a lot of columns to try to put in so this is the multi-year plan ultimately what we're going to budget that you're going to approve is the adopted budget for the next fiscal year 202 but we wanted to show a A Five-Year Plan for anything that we have um uh at top of mind for a future fiscal year as well so with that said maybe we can just kind of go uh fund and Department by funding department and maybe we can start at the top and just say hey any any questions on for example archal anything you want to discuss and if we're all good we can just go down the list um if that works if that works for you all so right now we've got for the archal park fund 3,525 th000 for next year um we had the beach growing renourishment project that's taking up a lot of that that was budgeted in 24 so this is um basically a carryover um uh for the work that we're now anticipating do for FY 2025 so in 24 it's about little more than half that we will look to spend in the current year and the remaining for next year approximately 1.5 yep and similar with the restrooms Megan I think the total budget for the restrooms is about 1.5 total and we're hoping to be under construction this year and it'll roll into 25 so the majority will be paid in fiscal 25 lik parking lot next year that'll be what is replace number 109 what is 109 it's the John Deere Gator that you see downstairs gotta yeah got we have the project title then the project description that kind of covers so just going down the list as Andrew was stating that we replaced the 2009 dump truck in fiscal 26 uh the only one for next year funded out of the archal fund is that the 2016 John Deere Gator at the 25,000 and there are questions on archal and just so that the revenue for archal just to refresh I think the majority comes from parking fun parking Revenue the that's the primary Reven 90 how many I forget how many spaces at Archer bald Park I should have a memorized but anyway generate uh close to half a million just in in parking Revenue um and then so again the majority of that fund just comes from I mean our visitors are paying for that not a general fund expenditure okay anything on uh building fund we got four items planned for uh for the building fund I don't have anything about the um expense part but I didn't think roofs were allowed over boat lifts in Mader Beach for our boat lift yeah I'm not against it I'm just thought it was against the code my understanding is they're not allowed in residential areas but commercial right something to look into similar to like the the Holton property how they have one I mean I don't know when that was built but yeah I mean the Holton property that was like a whole structure over top of the water though right huge I think the the code says accessory structures on docs are not accessory structures but no structure should be built on a residential Dock and it doesn't mention commercial commercial at all that's why we don't see them in residential areas but nothing doesn't yeah recalling nothing specific to commercial but we I mean we can review that and yeah come back Holden do you have time to take a look now while we go through things that way we can clear it up right now and take that off the table uh additional building department vehical parking have we run out of parking I'm so well sorry we were on the building F we're building F right right underneath the metal roof for B left oh bu I'm sorry just okay that's for build that's a vehicle for the building department that's this is the or the I'm sorry the parking space the parking lot to park the building department vehicles that we're putting out here in front in the grassy area over here toward Rex place so we're going to park all the building Vehicles there to open up the spaces over here just to just separate out our Fleet from the regular parking lot here okay and then reconfigure the building department permit desk is there something wrong with what we have do we know I think we're going to redesign the idea is to redesign it once the satellite office starts taking off um and we're we've gone paperless we've got a lot of cabinets and storage and things down there that we don't use and we want to hopefully add some windows to add some life down there so to speak um make it moreing when people come in right nice and again the revenue for building funds just come out of building permit fees again no general fund dollars for the building fund and that that code uh is section 14-1 164 is that I was referencing the uh okay real quick uh residential Zone business no structure should be built on any groin Jetty uh see sorry or ad joining Jetty or seaw wall in any business or commercial Zone within the city until the plans inspect specifications therefore shall have been submitted to the city manager as designated representative but they're strictly um not allowed in any residential Zone that's uh section 14-1 164 okay okay thank you for looking that up okay good on building yep the next one so we have general fund with multiple departments so we just have one uh for it's charged of the city manager's office that's the city hall veranda and stair replacement that's a a tile replacement project I know it's slippery there right uh Robin I believe uh it says current tiles not slip resistant and grout coming up on the stairs there are also several locations out there where they're popping off of the stairs because they were not installed properly um and if you look along the handrail out here they're popping so we're afraid that if we start demoing those tiles we we have no idea what's underneath it so idea is just to replace and put something out there we've had several slip and falls out there especially down the stairs so make it a little bit more safe great then the next one is just for uh Public Works which is uh Public Works Administration department is under the general fund and so that's a uh a backo replacement well in fiscal 28 that yeah and also not until 28 uh and we have one two three four five six so we have seven items for uh the Fire EMS Department all of which are for uh this upcoming fiscal year and then all one is your your bunker gear replacement mdts Clinton anything to add um there's any questions I can certainly answer them all all seven of those are for the fire okay including so right starting with the air conditioned storage space at $10,000 the painting of the interior exterior of the station for 65,000 kitchen laundry appliances for the 18,000 right the mdts as was stated and replacing all the SCBA equipment uh recommended by the n FP standards at the 310,000 the afg grant was applied for in March as well those those aren't awarded until August so we won't know until until this fy2 is about to come into play if we were awarded that or not so we added we went ahead and added the SCBA replacement 310,000 but the afg grant was applied for wonderful thank you Chief yes sir Chief how many SCBA do we have 14 14 yes yes for the rec center the fire suppression that's replacing adding fire suppression that'll that'll be uh new it won't be a replacement because when the rec center was built it's considered an assembly occupancy and that should have been sprinklered especially with a daycare inside there that's there's multiple NFPA codes that trigger a sprinkler suppression system required there for whatever reason when and again I was still on the street when this was built so I didn't what didn't have anything to do with that but going in there and looking at it and I mentioned it to Jay and he's like yeah we should probably do this yeah God forbid something happens I that's the very first thing that they're going to ask where were the sprinklers Chief yes who would we wouldn't have inspected our our own occupancy who would have inspected it and signed off on such an egregious issue that would have been the previous administration I'm not sure who signed off on the plans we had a a lieutenant at the time that was the fire inspector who more than likely would have signed off on the plans he know he's no longer employed with the city any longer and I don't think the previous fire chief would have signed off on the plans with us having prevent an aspect of prevention but can we legally sign off on our own construction would be the question um I'm not sure we we haven't had to really do that since I've been either the fire inspector or the fire chief I would imagine a I would say yes just if as long as it's code compliant and there's no kind of backdoor politics trying to happen hey don't enforce this kind of deal you know and again I can't speak for a previous administration oh no absolutely not but you have to ask that question what happened if we allowed a certif certificate of occupancy on a commercial building that didn't have the fire proper fire protection system I I think this needs to be looked into a little bit further yeah I I again when I was the fire inspector I I would do our fire inspection for the city and I saw I noticed that and that's what kind of sparked this this conversation and here we are trying to remedy it well it needs to be remedied that's for sure regardless it needs to be needs to be done but I would agree with the mayor what the hell I mean yeah what what happened well how do we go about looking into this mean it's I mean what are we going to find somebody just approved it without including it but it it appears that this project for this building the fire building and the rec center was it appears to have been underfunded we have a lawsuit right now on the architect and the contractor and the subcontractors so I mean I can tell you that just several things were missed and not included in the budget and I think only a couple of employees are here but they were not in those roles at the time um we can try but in the end we still need to to get this completed and but impct anything we're talking about today when you need to get it done no not not at all I mean obviously it needs to get done but we have to make sure history doesn't repeat itself and then we have to identify the shortcomings with this well I mean I think even people tell me that they see me walking through construction sites and then construction sites that's not going to happen when I'm here um that's because involved in what's happening and the staff can say hey well you know we have updates we go through all the steps all the processes so clearly this is I I would say just not paying attention or at all or we're looking to cut out well yeah let's cut out that part here um you that's why you a lot of these projects are taking longer because they need to be properly vetted and included and make sure that everything that we legally have to include is included um and just to add to that this this would be the third fire suppression system that I've been a part of installing or bidding out and getting installed with the city uh storage underneath City Hall over here uh when it was built we were not sure of the initial use so um the previous fire chief happened to see me taking gasoline to one of our vehicles down there and said uh you can't do that so we now have fire suppression under there and then when the the pier that was built I don't know within the last five six years that was required and This Crew here actually made sure that that was included in that because they caught that after a certain length that it has to be installed St so I would venture to say that based on and we and we do a lot more in the rec center and a lot more in some of these other buildings and rooms than was ever planned when they were built I would say that the usage of the building has changed and has probably maybe ticked us into to that category if if I were to guess I I I can't speak for way back when when it was built but I can say that as we add stuff and as we add occupancy and get closer and closer to that uh fire coded number in the occupancy of the rooms then that's when he you know kind of raised the flag and said hey we need to take a look at this so give you guys an idea thank you J so besides that the other wreck item is the uh placement of a field maintenance vehicle rake leveler for next next fiscal year budget and then the last one on general fund is for your department so that's Board of Commissioners is the uh various chamber upgrades the AV Equipment so then after that we go to the uh local option sales tax fund so this this is your discretionary ctax money at play here uh which some statutory restrictions on how it can be spent namely for um government facilities buildings Public Safety vehicles um and so capital and nature on on those those types of items is what's allowable and so that's where we uh structure our projects to to stay in compliance with with uh those statutory requirements so we've got a the public works and Building Services facility so that's going to be uh you can see in the account string the first three digits is the fund number so 103 is your local option sales tax fund and the next four digits is your department number so 3,000 your public work works so this is the Public Works um and Building Services facility that split 1 million Public Works 500,000 for uh Building Services then we've got three items first of which is not until 2029 and the next two uh deputy chief vehicle and then replacement of MB 100 vehicle uh for the next fiscal year and that's for fire EMS and then the next uh four are for recreation all in 25 and 26 basketball court enclosure concession stand Shade Awnings Dugout replacement passenger van replacement and a recreation truck questions on that or Jay any additional comments no and then the last one in the local option sales tax fund is uh this is Department 8000 is John's Pass Village and so that's under Megan weers perview and so that is milling and resurfacing of Village Boulevard Boardwalk Place in the surface parking lot for this upcoming fiscal year don't recall if that was budgeted in 24 and just rolled in 25 maybe that no new it's new and keeping this one will depending on the timing for the parking garage and when we get to the parking fund where we've included a budget for the a parking garage that this will this is some what related because the surface lot and possibly part of Village Boulevard will be part of should we proceed with a parking garage in that general area well in that area the surface lot plus private property around it uh plus city property to the north Northeast so this number will likely change or be Again part of the parking fund right I'm thinking that that would more likely get pushed out until at least a decision's made on what's going to happen with the parking garage probably till 26 but we just to be safely but likely it'll be in 26 so it could be moved to that well actually we do need to start with Village and Megan if you want to addend so the reason why this is in 25 is because we're working in conjunction with pellis County Utilities to replace their water sewer reclaimed that's in the village so anytime we do any type of Road Project I've been working with the county to do them at the same time so that they don't come in and cut up our brand new roads so with that being said though we could let the county come in and do what they needed to do and then we could come back in and maill and resurface when we do the parking garage so this could move perfect thank you Megan next up is Marina fund two items there seaw wall replacement and an additional fuel dispenser don't want to get ahead of ourselves but Krabby we look good at 30,000 one sec there it is I'm waiting to get the quote back on Friday but it looks like it's going to be more of that more than that okay looking closer to probably he I asked him the ball barket he said anywhere from 70 to 100 really yeah I don't know why I gotta look at what he's I thought we were in the 35 range well that was for the cost of the two pumps so I was like you know how much could it be I think what they're thinking is since we're doing they're thinking of doing it raw like it is but the seaw wall will be getting redone so plan to do it when all that's out and exposed because they do have to run wires for the compliance equipment and for power down that trench that's going to be in the seawall so I think possibly they're thinking they got to dig that do that kind of I got to look at the quote when they finally get it to we're we're a little ahead of ourselves now on the on the seaw wall we're getting a grant for part of that aren't we it's an appropriation that has not been vetoed yet so it's still is we're waiting on the governor to approve yes okay on the fuel pump we're going to get multiple quotes on that and compare oh that'll most likely they have to go out to an R go to bid okay but I just trying to get I was trying to get an initial quote to decide what the budget for it and just off top of my head because it was kind of fresh I said okay it cost for the two brand new pumps six years or longer than that about seven years ago it was you know around 34 30 so I thought okay well I was wrong it was it's a little bit north of that but like I said I got to see what the quote all entails as far as the you know if they're pulling electrical and that's 25,000 of it I'd be like oh wait a minute it's going to be trenched and dugged already we just need to do things in a timely while we have things tore up right I know copper is expensive but it's not that expensive to lay it in a ditch I get it yeah thanks grabby welcome all right next item is the parking fund and two item two uh Capital items there one are Park smart smart sensors and the second is a parking garage so we are we will have kind of the probably the first of several of discussions as to the proposed location for the garage in attempting to determine what a cost might be it's the parking garages are typically priced out at take X number of spaces and multiply by per space um the latest um estimates are 30 to 35,000 per space uh so 200 200 space garage you're looking at 6 million 300 9 million etc etc so we're trying to determine what that will be but likely the the construction would not begin if it were to be likely anywhere from a year to probably 14 or 15 months from now and that's after obviously determining how the funding for the garage goes by that time we will likely have I mean I don't know estimating uh probably about $3 million in the parking fund itself available for this project um so we will it depends on the number of spaces but we're trying to just be throw produce a number that seems reasonable um if we have a 500 space garage you're looking at 15 million um but spread over a couple of years um because it's not going to be completed obviously in one year it'll begin one fiscal year and conclude in the subsequent year so just trying to include this to have some sort of numbers in our budget going forward uh but it will definitely change over time but just to present and begin to look at what the funding um will be but again it will come out from the parking fund whether we whatever if it's a line of credit we issue bonds which is typically what you do to finance a garage we will need to hire outside you know Council to firm to do that and obviously go through that lengthy process if we proceed with the location in the village that will require a public private partnership agreement that will involve obviously legal um participation to determine what those agreements will look like because it will not only be the actual um construction who the ownership the future usage um Etc and then if there's any usage five or six years down the road that will you know will not occur until then for example if the roof has a another a different usage but we anticipate that and that becomes part of the project so gets little little bit more complicated but we're trying to at least provide an idea of what the funding would be will be or could be I mean right now we don't have a location to determine how many parking spaces well again it's just an estimate based on the acreage of the site and we're we're probably looking at 500 parking spaces but again that depends on we're not the only owners of property in that area or or we could be if it's a smaller um square footage or acreage then you you have fewer spaces but those are the discussions to work with the other two Property Owners which we believe I mean I've had several with them but we're going to have more obviously um but it looks like the proposed site would be everything that I've mentioned that entire triangular area in the village but that needs to be obviously finalized and until an agreement is signed by all parties then right now we're simply you know discussing what can happen so this exercise is just to keep it as a line item to keep us I think to give an idea on a starting point and the starting point is likely this amount and again by the time we the construction begins um I mean there'll be a few million dollar but there a few million dollars in the fun F balance um but keep in mind we likely will have some expenditures prior to that for both the financing as well as the negotiating the terms of of a of a parking garage good so just to again as you said it's a good way to kind of align item a placeholder for but it's likely going to be more than I mean again depending on the number of spaces uh Etc but we're just kind of estimating at this point what that might be the just to give you an idea our surface lot I believe is a total of 100 so half of John's of the John's Pass Village or the area where the garage could potentially go currently has just under 90 Park I'm sorry not 90 52 52 on the surface lot and I believe 45 on the street so about a 100 spaces that are currently there so just to give you an idea if you kind of Envision the surface lot but that's only one level and so likely the structure will be two po at least two for parking likely three to include the roof and then the other component and as we've had um two of the walking tours of the village to kind of attempt to visualize what it might look like um and the meetings that we had with the John's Pass Village for the zoning of the new six character districts this is in the uh traditional Village area where the height restriction um is 34 feet with the exception of 44 feet for a parking garage that would likely have the four levels retail on the ground floor and then likely three um with an open top uh the fourth level that again could have a a different usage several years down the road so the um the city owns a parking lot across the street on the beach side yes on the so on the west side of Gulf Boulevard at 13th Avenue how many spaces are on that lot that lot has 76 so originally that was the original location that we talked about doing a parking garage there and and again we it's it's as I've discussed with each of you it that can still be a location not really the preferred location not what I think I would recommend doing and certainly just asking hundreds I'm probably up to six or 700 visitors out at the village and and not so many on the sand side but you know realistically you need to have one in the village it would be much more beneficial than on the west side of Golf Boulevard you know you don't truly know until you build it but I don't feel so good as if you build it they will come type on the west side of GF Boulevard but so when we um when we start talking about doing this we'll have meetings public meetings to get input from the public and how they feel about that so we're sort I mean what we're discussing now is what we'll a little bit we'll show maps we'll show locations at the June Workshop just to give both locations what the possibility these are really the very first public discussion on here's a parking garage that the city has planned for several years here are the locations as I I mean I'm going to tell you that I my preferred locations in the village um I don't get to make that decision but that's my preferred U location and so that'll be an opportunity for the first time for for input but we will have more and specific public meetings to get public input on you know it could anything from the number of Stories the type of retail any type of designs any type of architecture and it's going to be very very open to get as much input um so we just give everyone an opportunity to tell us I'm sure we'll get some people no I don't want a parking garage in there whatsoever I don't want any more visitors in the or if I do uh you know it'd be better if they didn't drive here can we look at Alternative forms of transportation to get people here um well one of them that I've mentioned is it could be air transportation but that's after I mean at this point after a a garage or similar multimodal Transportation facility is built to allow for potential Air transport into the future thank you so then the other item in parking fund is the Smart sensor that'll provide sensors that will allow visitors and residents alike to go online and and view what our Open Spaces in the various parking areas are we have a capital project line item for that so I have a question on that um I did have the pleasure of riding with Jamal so I understand the Pains of riding a ticket and how much labor goes into having someone going carto car getting out walking over looking the license played up um will this system eliminate and the need for additional staff does it is there an offset in the amount of employees you need if you have this are you able to reallocate an employee to another department or would we keep the same amount of employees and and purchase this software in the enforcement and I can have Jamal add but really for this is essentially more for the public for in the ease of finding an available space so it won't assist us in knowing who's there and whether or not they've paid I know Jamal we will be collect we will be able to collect um better more accurate data on that um right now we essentially can see by payment when someone Parks but not when they technically leave um so this will allow us to have a better calculation on how many people how long how long an individual will stay in a spot and then when that spot is available it's basically in real time and it will allow access for the public to visualize it and basically have more of a comfort but the way we the way our parking lots are set up it's first in first out so it's constantly the SP the spaces are constantly being filled so it's it's accurate data but again The Upfront cost and then it's just basically a comfort for guests especially in in busier times so so they have uh if not this one something similar to this down in pasig gril indeed yes um now the last time I checked with them uh the sensor system was was working quite well um there's some better technology out there um as far as camera usage so cameras can actually track subsection like sections of the parking lots and then it's multiuse you can record audio all that so it's might be a better option versus the sensors just due to the the hardware cost and so yeah the pass the passag grill part of St Pete Beach does have that as I think they were getting were they getting they are yeah they're not remove it I don't know all the deta that's why I brought it up because they they move the the sensors sit there on the ground but you can literally they can be moved and they're so I which is why I asked that's doesn't seem to me like it would be a good system so we're explor different technology and there is you know other technology that's coming out the way this would eliminate a parking enforcement uh is if cameras or or license plate readers were installed so you can install them in surface Lots you really they can be installed anywhere and if the License Plate Reader through the camera then automatically matches by reading the plate matches the software when someone pays and that goes directly into you know a the handheld device that enforcement uses then it it could tell you if scan you know tell me the 30 PL these 30 spaces okay 28 have paid these two have not that alleviated the enforcement person from walking or driving down and and scanning or entering them um so it it could just do it much quicker um a little bit more efficiently but you're still going to need a human to be able to physically place the the violation the technology will complement Sor yeah it's really a compliment and it so could it I mean in the future it could if by the by the speed as to how quickly it can scan plates because as soon as someone you know if a vehicle Drives By The LPR and it catches the plate then the softer would be able to tell you whether that PL where that plate ended up where they parked and whether they paid or not so the software would potentially offer that it could you would not have to go out and go car to car you would know which cars didn't pay you'd know exactly where you were going to write the ticket so it would decrease the labor to be able to operate the parking enforcement y so and and also just as a perspective for every one ticket we write we lose three or four so with this technology for every you know we'll we'll lessen the loss of tickets if if it's in violation by probably half so hopefully thank you so next up is sanitation funds we've got a quiet year next year from a capital perspective on the sanitation fund nothing in FY 2025 but uh Megan put together the multi-year uh vehicle and Equipment replacement plan over the next four years subsequent and so that's what that looks like with uh replacing those vehicles and then lastly on the final page is the storm water fund so we've got area three five and six wrapping up and then area 9 starting area seven starting is the plan for fiscal year 25 and then the bulk of area 9 uh planned for fiscal year 26 and the bulk of then in then area four would start in 26 and finish in 27 when do we start to look at budgeting even if it's out a few years even if it's out a lot of years for undergrounding the utilities in the residential areas I thought was it last year the year before and I think it was back when Linda was here actually we talked about getting that out in the uh in the budget well as I explained to you earlier Duke Energy is uh not very efficient um so I actually had a meeting with them probably a year ago and I sent them my whole plan for my project area and said let's combine the projects this is when I plan to do construction these days start engineering I didn't get any response from them um I actually sent a check um to them for area 6 to to try to underground area 6 in conjunction with the roadway project and then after having the conversations with them they told me that my timeline was unrealistic for them because as we've seen with the Gulf Boulevard project we started that in 2019 it is 2024 and we are still yet to be under construction so Duke Energy's timeline of a simple less than a mile is five years if not more um so it is it is very very very very very difficult to try to plan a project with them also with pelis County so I I'm trying um but it's it's almost one of those things where it's a little bit unrealistic I've asked them to come to a meeting to explain how their process works because when we started Golf Boulevard for area or for phase one and phase two that looked like um probably like a two-year turnaround time so we've gone from a twoyear to a five plus year turnaround so it's it's yeah I remember having a conversation with jakita and she was saying that they do it by substation and that they have a multi-year calendar where they do all their major work for each different substation they may have it out 10 20 years I don't know um and I thought our area was coming coming up I will check in yeah we will review with them again I mean this is a conversation that we need to be having probably a couple of times a year yes and if we have to go to the corporate Duke office and say hey but this is what we're planning to do we need your I agree 100% get get above whoever you're talking to find out well as you said we have a new rep now so maybe that can help push things along yeah invite them to come come and yeah I have requested I think about six times it's been going on for about six months so I'll send another email and we'll see what we can do we will definitely follow up but as I said it just yeah we haven't I can tell you this is the same um when I was up the road decade ago same scenario even before Duke purchased Pro Progress Energy it was similar and that's a reason why a lot of cities just choose to do it on the you know as best as you can but you still need the utility Duke Energy to agree to to participate and that's been the the a little bit of a challenge right because I know they they they budget certain funds for you know each those substations now whether they're going to be replacing poles or we use those funds to help us with our budget with undergrounding you know that's a conversation that jakita said we could have so but I don't know you know it's it's well beyond her I understand with her Engineering Group and their supervisors and and I bless you for working with them to get it through um but just want to keep bringing it to the top of the pile thanks and just Megan so we're back to we I think the commissioner Kerr had mentioned we received little little over a million dollar for area three area three was $549,450 and no this year was the seaw walls this was the seaw walls I don't think we had we rece any infrastructure but something we I mean because you can see the obviously the cost and impact to the cities into the millions any amount can help but it's something that we are incorporating in our and RJ's Been instrumental in yes in that okay and we do request those every year but we don't always receive them and we are back to the grants talk when I did the engineering um RFP or ITB I can't remember what the title was I included in that grant writing services and we actually did um contract with cers and had them research grants so I gave them our CIP for the whole city and had them research and see if there were any available grants that would fit into our CIP and there weren't any currently but there are some that haven't opened yet so those are in our our ey we're just waiting for them to have a date okay so we have a relationship with a grant writing person or company we do coier engineering and our undergrounding firm Megan is um utility Florida utility consultant consults of Florida and we will be starting hopefully mid June we just received our fdot grant I'm sorry permit to start on Gulf Boulevard correct so part of Gul Boulevard I mean I think all of you has been undergrounding undergrounded and now we're beginning on one 44 44 heading south at the essentially the count Park heading south but again at least I mean we start it g Boulevard I think your comment is neor yeah I just I want to get it in the in the budget I don't know what that budget would look like it would sort of look like the parking garage thing where you just said okay we're going to put a placeholder in here we have to Kick the Can we have to Kick the Can but at least it brings it up for a conversation every time we go through the budget and as things are updated um that's just my personal opinion and if there's you know we get depending on where our conversation goes with uh grant writing [Music] um I just think that it's something that we need to pursue best we can but thank you any other questions on any of the projects we went over or anything that you like to add or discuss outside of what we've covered personally I would just like to try to figure out how we can extend the life of our sanitation trucks a little longer The Five-Year replacement and to 8-year replacement it just seems like we could get a little you know is it because they're out in the weather and we lived in a coastal environment is it the the the use is it the heavy use or is it Seemy use the commercial trucks need to be replaced every seven to nine years it just depends again it's a placeholder when we're budgeting that prior year we can always push them out another year but okay typically on those I mean they they get a lot of use and once they're past that life then you spend a lot more money on maintenance sure and repairs my red flag up when I read the first one 2023 Peter Built claw truck yeah that's that's not correct that's a 2013 not a 2023 ah yeah I just saw that the rest of the story yeah it's a 23rd that makes more sense thank you okay okay so like I mentioned for the June meeting we'll try to put a more comprehensive uh Workshop document together for you that'll include all of the components of the budget so revenues operating expenses Personnel expenses you already have Capital here and we'll put it all together um so you can see what the full picture looks like and then we can tweak that then we've got the July and August available to further tweak to um get it to where it needs to be and then um September should just be the the more um perfunctory plan of approving in public public meetings as needed uh no surprises there sounds good questions or any other anything other information real quick Megan uh a quick question for you I was just noticing are four um is not designated anything until 2026 correct that's correct that's to start Engineering in 2026 so again with with a lot of these road projects I sat down with pelis County utilities and we worked out a plan based on theirs and also with obviously the our road conditions which your your road has gotten significantly worse since all of the construction um but it's to try to replace the utilities at the same time that we do the road projects you think that there will be any grants available for that also and and we will do our best to request grant funding but I mean I can't I can't speak to 20 27 and that that number could be way different so it just depends on pricing at the time and I mean is a significant area so right exactly and it's both grants and Appropriations um through the state because we can apply for Grants through a few entities and road projects are a little more complex but and then certainly through the legislative appropriation which is where we've received funding u i mean it's it's a grant essentially but right but there are also you know potentially grants available from other sources that we're also going to research and okay I attempt to receive as well all right thank you you're welcome no other questions or comment at any time please feel free to email or when we have meeting let us know of any other questions related to Capital but then our next um Workshop will be on June the 20 June the 26th yep and again at any time let us know of any other information that you would like or anything else that we can provide but we will continue working on next year's budget thank you all all right any other questions all right the time's five 2 p.m we'll go ahead and adjourn this budget meeting --------- e e good evening everyone thank you for coming it's Wednesday May 22nd 6 p.m and this is the Board of Commissioners Workshop city clerk will you call the role please mayor rosc presid vice mayor Brooks here commissioner tagini here commissioner Kerr here commissioner mcgean here all are present all right thank you all right the first thing I want to address and I'm going to let the City attorney take it over in a second is the fact that we've had to pull the Caddy's chairs on the sand beach from the agenda however once the City attorney explains why this has happened I want each one of you to come up and please talk to us it will be put on a future agenda but there's some legal things that have happened that may had to be pulled so I'm going to turn this over to the City attorney to explain what has happened thank you mayor it it the uh request to pull this item from the agenda was made by me on behalf of not only my Law Firm but also the law firm that is representing the cat's owner um as some a little bit of background you'll understand that although the alcoholic beverage permit was issued there was some provision relative to where CH chairs could be located on the property um the ultimate decision that was made by the commission a couple years ago is is that chairs and tables could be uh located on the property except for on the public beach portion of the property the question that has come about is what is actually the public beach and where is it located in relation to property lines um after the meeting on um my conversations with the city manager um I believe it was April 18th or April 17th I ordered the title search on the property through attorney's title fund attorney's title fund did not get us the title search until late last night the title search is being reviewed by our real estate attorney in addition to that the real estate attorney is reviewing the information that's been provided by the property owner that has not been completed as of yet um therefore I cannot give you any direction relative to this particular agenda item until it has been fully vetted through the real estate attorney um and so I think it would be um it would not be very helpful for us to make a presentation relative to what the issues are because I can't really tell you what the legal consequences are for um those things so I've asked for it to be pulled U from the agenda I understand that the public is here and there are some people that like to speak on the item I think that's absolutely appropriate but as for us moving forward and giving you any direction relative to what is allowed and what is not allowed and where it is and where it isn't I think that we need to schedule it for the next Workshop meeting um I can assure you that we will have an answer for you then um but having just received it late last night um the real estate attorney has not been able to comment on it as of yet so that's why I've asked it to be pulled so we can properly prepare you the item will be placed back on the commission Workshop agenda at the Wednesday June the 26th commission Workshop is when it will be uh a discussion there will be no votes or no decisions taken but at this point nothing will happen out on the sand until that item is discussed here at the June 26th uh workshop at the earliest and I'll turn it back to you mayor thank you kindly I welcome everyone to come up one at a time we'll give you five minutes please don't take any shots and let's remain uh professional and respectful please send your email addresses to either myself or the city manager so we can maintain an open line of communication to remind you when this comes back up please come up and talk to us mayor r on you and I have emailed a few times I've gotten your stuff um if in fact they own the sand we have nothing to say however if they don't own the sand I don't want any more stuff on the beach okay enough already I mean as a resident here for for 13 years I mean it's very nice to have these restaurants come in and caddies and Krabby bills and everything like that but that's our beach okay and from a point of view there's no monetary interest in it for us okay it doesn't do anything for us it crowds the beach and if you go look at what am I thinking of no uh in St Pete Beach little Sunset Beach if you go over there see that where caddies is it's a disaster okay drunks overflowing garbage pales and everything is that what we want and then isn't there an issue also with the turtles and them filling holes back in and everything like that so I can tell you that I am diametrically opposed to this unless they own the land they own the land we can't do anything okay but as a resident here looking for quality of life and looking to have protect my beach okay absolutely not only no heck no thank you no thank you very much we appreciate your comments please come up and talk to us hello I'm Mary I live on Palm Street and I also represent the 39 condo unit owners at 14001 Golf Boulevard um I'm glad to hear that you did a title search because I know we're all very curious along with the beach flower and their new deed that they uh recorded in July 20123 that puts them the whole way down to the water so if all the if they all own that beach we're not going to have any Beach left so um if like he said if they own it they own it um hopefully this could have been figured out a long long time ago um but if they don't own it I would oppose the chairs as well that beach is already so crowded with the new parking area nothing against caddies it really wouldn't matter what restaurant was there um it originally was a residential area so I believe that's why the restrictions were placed on it back uh when they got the liquor license thank you thank you so much next please come up thank you for coming gra my notes my name is Linda Kramer and I live at 1410 Gulf Boulevard um my husband and I also I have shared my letter with the other uh residents in our condo building and there's complete agreement uh my husband and I I bought here three years ago since cadis was still under construction I took the time to read the zoning code and the permit pro proceedings before signing a purchase contract we decided to move ahead with our purchase because the mad beach the madira City Records reported that caddies was supposed to be an upscale restaurant with special conditions including but not limited to no Amplified sound is allowed between the hours of 8 8 AM and 800m sorry and all city codes must be respected regarding noise and other nuisance activities no mobile mobile or off-site bending to include the the delivery of food and beverage to surrounding outdoor areas and no chairs or tables supplied or contracted for Supply by applican will be placed on the beach it doesn't say public beach it says on the beach when you read the the record uh unfortunately Cades has consistently disregarded the music noise level conditions on several occasions the music and the Basse thumping had become so loud that we felt compelled to call caddies and subsequently the Sheriff's Office to request that the music be turned down the beach has gotten much more crowded and Rowdy since cat's opening and has gotten even worse with the opening of their new parking lot we are now seeing and removing much more trash from the beach and around our own private wooden lounge chairs on which people feel entitled to camp out now Cates is trying to reverse other permit restrictions specifically setting up uh tables and serving on the beach we and other residents in our building are vly opposed to cat's request as we invested great funds to purchase here and pay a substantial sum every year on property taxes in order to live a quiet peaceful Lifestyle on a family friendly Beach also the new condos that are currently under construction and are directly next door to caddies are listed between 2.5 and $3.5 million per unit it's hard to imagine that prospective buyers in that price range will view caddies as an upscale restaurant especially if they allow bar service a bar and service on the beach given the conditions of cat's existing permit and the negative impact that Cates has already had on our local Beach their current requests to place tables and to serve on the beach should be categorically denied caddies may try to argue that the be beaches directly outside their building is private so they should be allowed to set up tables but this shouldn't matter since the the their permit clearly states tables or service on the beach it also open opens up a can of worms that every CLE building then can place anything they want right outside of their unit so that we can place signs and whatever we want outside of at the end of our property line on the beach which causes even more problems in closing just two weeks ago my husband and I were on the beach in front of the building in front of our building which is just a 100 yards past caddies and we can still hear the music blaring we took some videos of the parking lot and the beach and the beach in which you can hear the loud music uh how loud the music is and how crowded the parking lot and beach was I have those videos on my phone if anybody's interested in seeing or hearing it thank you thank you so much for your comments next please come up we'd love to hear what have to say Lind I'm Linda's neighor neighbor I got another neighbor wasn't able to come and reports in a vid letter and then some comments of my own his main point is since Caddy's open the tener of the entire beach has changed caddy is not an upscale restaurant in the beach as it was build it's a beach bar I've called Cades when there's too much to put up with spoke to a number of managers they were polite but did nothing it takes a long time to get the music to stop Cades has one role and that is to make money it is coming at the expense of everyone living on or visiting the beach people coming to the beach now feel as acceptable to have their own music and blasted at any level on numerous occasions it's been a battle of Music on the beach caddies vers the beachgoers I have spoken to the police on the beach by phone they report our hands are tied last month the group set up their own DJ 25 feet away competing with caddies and blared music for hours and left trash all over the beach that didn't happen prior to CAD lowering the bar consideration I very strongly opposed request from caddies to expand onto the beach with tables Etc it will only add to the problems they purchased a parking lot across the street which is overwhelming the beach to increase their own foot traffic and income it is all about their business and making money at the expense of the public in Access their requests only compound the noise and overcrowding they've already created please consider those of us living on the beach don't want C's environment further forced upon us do not allow Cades to dominate the beach atmosphere the way they already have they've made the atmosphere at times like a fraternity party not everyone on the beach or in the surrounding areas wants what caddies have to offer and I just like to say and moved to Madera Beach a while ago because of certain Treasures I mean wonderful people of course yeah yeah but it's really the sand and the Sea and the sand is being destroyed as we see down south if you have a restaurant with chairs out there with increased music to PL of those chairs and the garbage the trash thank you thank you very much for your comments next please come up hello I'm Pamela toson I live on 137th Avenue Circle um pretty much agree with what everybody said here but I just want to go on the record we're totally opposed to this um seeing what's happening with the Treasure Island caddies picnic tables all over the beach we have sea turtles that come up and Nest we have nesting endangered seabirds and endangered two types of endangered sea turtles that come up on our beaches um it's just going to impede them there's going to be more trash that the animals have to deal with more trash that people have to pick up after I know the uh the beach Pirates they clean up garbage all the time up on the beach and I appreciate what they do what they shouldn't have to um I don't live right on the beach by Cades um but I can imagine the people that do with the noise because I can hear it with our car windows shut going by it it's loud it it gets Rowdy people out in the front and on the beach it's it's crowded we don't need picnic tables more drunks on the beach um lived here for 12 years we didn't come here for a party town we came here for the family environment that we thought it was but it's kind of not looking that way with places like C is coming on the beach so that's about all I have to say thank you thank you very much for your comments please come up we'd love to hear what you have to say need to put this a little bit further back I was in the Marines for 20 years so uh my voice goes pretty hard uh Joseph sniders uh lived here nine years uh live right across from Cades we use the beach all the time okay during the week and the weekends and this should not even be considered our beach is only this big and if Cades gets their way we're going to have about this much Beach for public use okay the building that's being built right now next to caddies from what I hear they own it all the way down to the water and and some chair person is going to come and put rental chairs all the way down to the water there I'm not sure if that's true or not but they do that Caddy's has theirs we're we're going to have nothing we're going to have a sliver and I represent like a hundred people that we go down there and enjoy this beach so very firm do not do not do this thank you thank you very much for your comments next Chuck Dylan I'd just like to know whether or not this is going to go in front of the planning committee because it was previously put on our slate to go in front of the planning committee and what is the legal skip uh steps here is a planning committee then a um uh workshop and then in front of the board Commissioners I mean you know uh so in terms of I hear that it's going to be on June's Workshop but is it going to go in front of the planning committee first and then therefore would these people be able to start their um Communications at that point so mayor I just suggest that we finish with all the comments and I'll wrap up and I'll explain what my thoughts are on when everybody else's that would be fine please come up we'd love to hear what you have to say evening everybody John Connelly madira Beach um when this first appeared on the planning board's agenda um and then got pulled about two or three days later I asked John Hendrickson in his driveway if cat's back when he granted the permit and so on and so forth um would did you allow that and he said 100% no and at that point um apparently he tried to put chairs and so on and so forth on the beach and John went down there and told him this isn't part of the agreement that you signed now we have Doug Andrew sitting in the audience and Doug with on the board then maybe he could add some light to this thank you for your comments Brian hickey I live off of Normandy um I am totally opposed to the Madera Beach uh I'm worried it's going to turn into a Sunset Beach again as everyone said our beach is pretty small that parking lot is already jam-packed even the two residential spots are very hard to even get parking tooth I'm only three blocks away most of the time I do walk there which is fine but for elderly people it is very very hard and I see a problem if they do own that property we're going to keep having people parking in that lot we're not even going to be able to access that beach in front of the parking lot there because they already have that turn through going through there um again nothing against caddies I just don't want to see that turn into a Sunset Beach where next thing you know you're going to be having cab rented out and it's just going to be crazy thank you for your comments hi guys I wasn't planning to speak on this I was going to kind of wait until Tom came up with his numbers I think um um I'm sorry Mr Theon uh Ry summed it up perfectly uh if they own the sand there's probably going to be very little that anybody's going to be able to do I can tell you just from personal experience I lived across from that spot for uh the better part of 10 years and um they've been nothing but a good neighbor I do understand the Amplified sound thing and along the lines there but I I I think that what was missing from that conversation was it past the hours of I I don't know cat's to be a constant uh penelo County Deputy haunt for them to be having to answer calls there a lot so like I said I'd rather Reserve any comment until we have the full story so it's kind of irrelevant for me to say anything now thanks guys now thank you very much Tom Edwards Mader Beach resident district one I was going to read a paragraph from their application in 2021 for their alcohol permit we will be providing a sitdown restaurant acting with full three course menu and a bar servant fold menu also we have a proven track record at other locations to be an addition to the city rather than a hindrance we do not attract or cater to the young party crowd haven't haven't listened to these citizens that is not a good neighbor and here we are three years later and with these problems I'm opposed to it all right thank you anybody else please come up thank you for taking the time to be here Eric Cabrera I live on Miramar uh I agree with everything that everybody else said I'm completely opposed to it I moved out here 14 years ago and I chose Madera Beach because it's a quiet residential Beach town I don't want to see it turned into like a Clear Water Beach or a party town like that we don't need that uh it's already attracted caddies is already attracted that type of crowd already uh just by being a restaurant and we don't needed to go any further than it already than it already is and uh I am totally opposed to having them do anything on the beach that's our beach they have a restaurant on Gulf Boulevard as far as I'm concerned have nothing to do with the beach that's I say thank you very much for your comments next please come up thank you for coming my name is EV Evas farmer I've been on councils before and I am number one for individual property rights are are you a m Beach resident I am okay number one property rights don't mess with my property rights but to solve this situation I think that it would be in the future I happen I happen to have information that yes we both sides do own to the mean High watermark on both sides of the public park so I would like for you to consider the possibility of creating some sort of barrier or buffer buffer between caddies and the public park and the public park and Beach flower they should each have one an individual buffer to protect both of their property rights and the public does that sound like a good idea I know we'll have to talk about it okay once we figure out all the facts the reason had to be pulled personal knowledge that that property does go to the watermark gotcha and so a natural buffer to protect both sides of the property owners you we' have to deal with the um sand dunes in front of caddies but a buffer if you all decide that that is appropriate to protect their property rights I know there's a lot of history but I think that's a good idea to consider if that if you allow it all right thank you for your comments both sides all right thank you anybody else please come up we don't bite we'd love to hear what you have to say hello everyone I'm Pat O Brien I live on Palm Street about a block from Cades and we've been here about 12 years and I'm here quite a bit I mean the global question is what does mandir Beach wannabe it used to be a small Beach town a lot of small residents all around and obviously Over The History of Time lots of condos and huge wealthy kind of places have been built on the beach and uh I don't know where you guys want to go with this and uh I'd rather have it stay lowkey it used to be one of the last places for the wealthy people to uh want to settle and I don't know I'm kind of for the general Joe's General jeans that just want to live a good life so yeah I'm concerned about the uh expansion of catties and the challenges it will bring more and more to is the beach for the regular people that live here or there or is it for the wealthy condo people thank you thank you very much uh we've got if you can summarize in a minute or so Pam twon again um in response to the Natural buffer um there are sand dunes there um we live we live with sea creatures that depend on these places because a bar wants to put up a buffer a wall whatever beaches it will impair their access to the sand dunes where the birds nest they can't get to the water if there's a barrier or the sea turtles okay so we have a responsibility living on a beach like this to protect these creatures that are already in endangered and threatened they have enough to deal with with pollution and every that could go on and on okay let's not throw them war in there way you okay all right thank you thank you anyone else like to come up and comment thank you for coming to the meeting thank thank you for having us um my name is Sheba Lee I'm currently an investor in throughout the St Petersburg area my husband and I moved here four and a half years ago we reside in the madira Beach ZIP code but we're over behind Publix um we've been looking for the last four years for a beachfront condo and so we've done a lot of research on what's available out there and we've know a lot of the bylaws of all of these condos so I'm just giving you a perspective as a future investor buyer okay um at least a half a dozen of the condos that we looked at and these are all condos in the 1.2 million to 2.5 and 3.2 million okay um is that they have a fence between the back of the condo and the beach which we have access to but we we are not allowed to put picnic tables out there or put barbecue pits out there everything has to be contained to directly around the property so I'm just thinking like we're talking about a business and I understand as a business owner I've owned restaurants martial arts schools so many different things and and we've invested all over the world right so I understand being a business owner and wanting to expand the business but if the residents are not allowed to do what you're now asking if caddies can do why would it be okay for a business to do it shouldn't we be fair and consistent amongst residents as well as business owners and we all want to live you know coexist and be able to get along with each other and understand each other's needs but if you push forward with this and allow them to set up what they want you're just giving all the other restaurants and businesses that have access the same potential future and what does that mean to the residents it means that it's going from that familyfriendly environment to a clear water or like I've heard The Mention Of Sunset Beach is that what we really want and so we just have to be careful that we're being fair but firm and allowing you know everybody to have their input I think there's a lot of great input that came through today but uh I'm gonna tell you honestly um we've invested hundreds of millions of dollars like I said all over the world and if this type of change happens then we're not not really enthusiastic about investing future money here and so that's just my comment thank you so much thank you so much anybody else like to come up please sir thank you for coming hi my name is Dan I live on GF Boulevard uh been here eight years um most of the caddies have live music uh the treasure is one Indian Rocks I just oppose all for it um for the decision thank you very much all right thank you anybody else all right the commission appreciates everybody's comments please make sure that we have your email addresses so we can main contact with you in case things change with the next meeting and just keep in mind with what the City attorney said we don't know what we don't know right now and then as soon as we know everybody else will know all right we're going to close public comment on items that are not on the agenda then and point of order point of order mayor I'd like to hear what Mr tras had wanted to say that's right to round up some of the comments if you're still I I appreciate it I just want to let everybody understand really what's going on here first of all the development agreement that was entered into back in 2016 is expired is no longer controlling on that property I just want to make that absolutely clear second thing I want you to know is is that there is no pending application there Cades is not asking for anything Cates is not going to be looking for something to be approved Cates is not going to go to the Planning Commission what really is the issue here is when Caddy's uh alcohol beverage permit was approved a couple of years ago they agreed that they would not put chairs on the public beach the question is what is the public beach so if their property line goes all the way down to mean high water they're allowed to put chairs on their private property they are not allowed to put chairs on the public beach so what we're really just trying to do is determine where that line is that's it so um we hopefully will know something in the next couple of days and then we'll talk about it at the the workshop meeting but this commission is not going to be considering the approval of anything there's no expansion of caddies it was already approved it was approved a couple of years ago and that's the only thing that we're talking about so everybody has gone off on these tangents and I understand that it's a very important topic but really the only topic that the commission is going to be talking about in my opinion is where the property line is one other thing I would mention to you is is that once the chairs were noticed on the beach a couple of months ago the property owner was contacted they picked up the chairs they said that they will not put them back out there until such time as the property line issue has been resolved so Cates is being a good business owner and waiting to try to get it resolved that's what the attorneys are doing that's what we're trying to figure out so just understand that that's really what the issue is where is the property line and unfortunately there may be a situation where they do own property all the way down to the mean high water so you wouldn't want the city to be telling you where you could put chairs in your backyard or your front yard and that's probably going to boil down of the same situation here if they own the land they can put chairs there so um and one other thing when the alcoholic beverage permit issue came up a couple of years ago it was a quasi judicial process this commission heard testimony and evidence and they made a decision based upon the testimony and evidence that they heard and whether they were going to approve the alcoholic beverage permit and they did approve it so the only question that we're going to be talking about next month is where the property line is so if you have questions about the issue feel free to reach out to me I may not be able to give you the answers or obviously any of the commissioners of the mayor the city manager but really I'm we're just trying to near you in this is the only issue that we're really trying to resolve there is nothing else going on okay and so just just to add one to uh to City Attorney tras at the time of the alcoholic beverage uh application the city replied with nine conditions for the property owner to follow to comply and at that meet at the Quasi judicial hearing that is when the applicant the property own or the business owner rather requested for the language to be changed on the condition about the chairs and the tables the the condition stated there will be no chairs or tables on the beach the applicant requested for the word public to be inserted there was a discussion if you go back anybody can go back at our website to that meeting and see the meeting uh on a video and audio and that was the discussion where the word public was inserted so the question that's been posed to me that I think a few of you brought up that's not what was approved the original condition said no chairs umbrellas on the beach it was agreed at that quasi judicial hearing the word public to be inserted which then goes to what City attorney Tom trash just stated that that is what we are clarifying at this point where what it Where is the public beach meaning where does the business or the property begin or end in terms of what is their property and what is not their property line which is what we will hopefully have Clarity on over the next few days to a week and we will discuss at the next Workshop in front of the commission and certainly everybody's obviously welcome to attend but I did want to add that that comment because that has been questioned of me multiple times no no no they didn't approve that well if you go back and look at that's that's what occurred at that meeting they I will add the the business owner has stated um and I know the business owner is not here they will have an opportunity at the next Workshop that the chairs and The Umbrellas that are to be placed out there are for their guests there will not be table service they will not be able to order food or order drinks from those tables chairs should they be able to be place on them I'm just stating that that's what they said that is a condition that was approved during that quasi judicial hearing they cannot order nor a guest cannot order food or beverages nor can the business sell and then or take an order and then deliver the food or the beverage out to the chair or umbrella whatever that is that is part of the condition that was approved and that is what the property the business owner has stated so ma'am we're done with the ma'am we're done with the public comment we're done with the public comment I'm sorry if anybody would like to go back it's the February of 2021 meeting that you can go back and listen to everything that the city uh manager just alluded to it it's all right there you can go listen to it that the word public yeah was inserted was inserted or they changed one word back then but so public comment is over on this for now but thank you City attorney city manager thank you all right next up then well is there any public comment on anything else other than what we were just talking about anything not on the agenda yeah not on the agenda that all right so then we'll close public comment that we'll move along to uh Board of Commissioners item a by Centennial Park usage mayor and Commissioners the this what you requested in a prior meeting was to um what if anything the city could utilize or do at B Centennial Park we currently have the city has an agreement with the penel county pellis county school district uh to essentially utilize and maintain um Bicentennial Park which is again located on the east side of the the Stewart Causeway that is pretty much what the uh the city has had in terms of an agreement and what the city has done is maintain essentially mowing weeding uh putting and collecting maintaining the trash containers that are out there of the to my knowledge there has been and here up on the screen is an image of the the property the area um the city has not to my knowledge held any events or activities or anything other than um really utilized it for sort of the area is closed when we have had uh the Fourth of July fireworks next door at the school field Fields area um and also we allowed penel County of the Sheriff's Office Marine unit and their contractors to utilize the mainly the the Park area as a staging uh for the derelict and abandoned boat removal from almost two years ago now so that um unless Jay or Megan I'm mistaken that's been pretty much the usage of the park and the time that I've been here I've had residents ask can I can I launch a kayak can I launch a paddle board from there I don't think we've ever that's not prohibited so we that has occurred we do allow that um can I have my dog run around out there well your dog must be on a leash um so yes you can run around with your dog on the leash um but that's there has and then re most recently questions if we could put some sort of fencing and utilize it as a secondary U dog park uh in that Park any changes to the current agreement would need the approval by the pelis County School Board could we make it somehow more kayak user launch friendly I'm sure we could I think we'd um I mean we could sign it as such and but in terms of equipment I don't know if we probably not a good idea I don't know yeah I think somebody wants to comment can we let them out would you like to come up Sir or hold mayor if I could just go ahead Megan if we're talking in terms of adding structures for launching um I think we would have to change the agreement with pelis County and also insurance requirements for us yeah I don't think it's that I think it's more if we can move the telephone poles that that we could make an no that's not it please come up and talk to us then Sir John Connelly again uh madira Beach I originally asked to be able to use the restricted road down to the beach which right now has sign on it that you you know no trespassing so on and so forth so what I basically asked for was to be able to drive down unload your kayak and drive out no parking no standing signage yeah permitting for the use of the road that was it could to be able to drive Beyond I believe Beyond this little Bridge area and closer to the sand Edge to be able to unload a kayak or paddle board Etc I think that's your request right I don't think he's asking for the world either no no I I think that from my perspective I think that's reasonable signage no parking you know restricted use unload and and load period okay I think Megan wants to jump well oh go ahead I mean one thing we from my perspective mayor and commission before we get to Megan would be I mean obviously it would have to be signed um I think it would be good to Pro if we were to do it to do it on a trial basis to see what happens you would need obviously some monitoring so that cars would not park closer that they would move back to the road and of course that's a little bit of a challenge challenge so one of the issues is that that Park's pretty heavily used over there so you have somebody come in the middle of the day when there's dogs running around off the leash there's children over there people are using that more of a public beach because they don't want to deal with the traffic coming across the bridge so how are we going to safety issues how are we going to make sure somebody doesn't get ran over by a vehicle and we have had issues in the past where people have used that like much like over off of Gandy where they're pulling on and they're parking their vehicles over there it has been an issue there's also drainage that goes underneath that Culvert so it's it was not made to be driven over all the time so we we would have to think about that all right thank you I mean dump trailer tand of dump truck back in there unloading the boats out so if there was any crushing of those pipes it would it would have well right EI either way yeah that's where they took the Der boats out absolutely but certainly something that I mean if that's something that we can look into and see the possibility of it I think safety is a big issue but certainly something we can look into a little bit more or any other type of use that you suggest okay can I add something too to that made back here um so the the black here you see there on the leftand side of that is actually that's do property as well that's where the old bridge used to be located so that's why it is used for parking in the area that is driven on and then you have the beach area that's the other property that's owned another potential issue that again if if you look at the top left of the photo closer to the bridge that's it looks like the road it's where everybody Parks that's dot property is it used to be the the road and the bridge connection Department transport so then the the the barrier between the two is the makeshift property line another challenge that we've seen and I'm sure the deputies may be able to back us up on this is if you notice that the the dock at Publix is gone and we have a lot of issues with the dock here I have seen personally that area be used from the parking lot down to the beach as a loading and unloading zone for these people that live in the boats out on the water and they will park their cars there overnight and they will load their stuff in and out so and jet skis as well so another additional concern for us to consider Is people driving down to unload their stuff to and from their boats as well as potentially using that beach as a a boat launch as I mean and I understand the kayak thing that's that is a reasonable use but we have to consider all the additional unreasonable uses that we're going to have to avoid and police throughout the process very well put Commissioners any other comments I have I have a a question and a comment um I want I'd wonder if what's the how many like legal issues have come like complaints uh Sheriff's having to go over there for some reason whatever it might be I wonder how are there any changes in that respect that need to be made do we know that is a high is it a high crime a lot of complaints I see we have some authorities we'd have to pull the data but I don't think there's been a a significant amount but we'd have to look at that and then get back with you I just thinking I think just I think boats pull trying to pull up not so much on the land side um I think we've had groups gather there and lots of kids and lots of noise but I think the biggest issues a little bit of what Jay said people you know just sure coming up and you putting their boat on the sand and then going and getting items or supplies from a vehicle I think that's been the biggest and then dogs just kind of people letting their dogs run loose um not not a gigantic issue but in terms of like a lot of calls I don't think it's had a significant I don't know if Cory or CER in the back but I don't think it's had but we we can certainly check to what level of activity that is just curious what that level is is and the other thing is I'm uh I I would have to take a closer look at it to see if there's enough Beach where we could designate kayak launch and even you know ji launch but with the with other signs that say no parking and kayak launch and jet ski launch here only and no parking so you got to take your car back around after you launch it um and that would at Le the then the kids and the dogs people would see where they they need to stay away from just I mean this first time I've discussed this so that's that's an idea that comes to mind also if it's a if it's a pro I guess I'm asking that legal how many complaints have been made is is the loose dogs become a problem I I just assumed it was a dog beach because every time I've driven by there that's all I've ever seen turns it surprised me to find out that it's not uh so that's that's a that might be a situation maybe a small dog park I don't know how people would use it but at least it'd be there uh just a fence down area away from the water for the dogs just just my thoughts on that well we've never told anybody you cannot take your dog there we've actually recommended people you can go to the sand and take your dog but they must be on a leash that's the I think been the issue but I would also it'd be difficult to have motorized versus non-motorized uses so I would be hesitant for jet skis to be a but I mean certainly something we can look into is that entire area fenced no the what what am I looking at that runs parallel with the access this this is the 150th Avenue the causeway the sidewalk on the east side of the bridge keep coming down telephone poles keep coming what you see in that those are those are basically car stops so because there's a there's a retention Pond there so where you see where it says the Ping of B Centennial Park that's actually those are actually mangroves that I had trimmed down so that we could see the homeless people on the other side of it because there was a big issue with that so now you can see through there and there's actually a walk path that's been created where Robin is with the mouse so you can actually Park very close to the beach and pull your kayak that's what I'm asking this is parking here where those two cars are parked if you were to park in that general area absolutely how or just before you park how far are you talking about carrying your kayak to actually get to the water line maybe 20 feet 30 feet it's not very far well it's yeah it it's I mean it's probably a total of about 100 feet till you get to the sand from here so that makes it easy to get kayak to the water just makes it difficult to get it back yeah yeah which is why we have to have those parking stops so that cars don't go too far right into yeah so that yeah this area here which follows all the way along yeah all the way along and this is the there is a fence on the east side here that's the fence to the school property it's all school property but I'm referring to the Madera Beach fundamental actual driveway here and then their athletic fields but so there is a fence there there's no other fence in any area you just have the the bay on this side and then the driveway in and out of the park that runs parallel to 150th or the causeway and certainly we I mean individually we can go take a tour and take a look and see uh so we can better show I'm I'm thinking if you're allowing vehicles to cross that cver I think you're opening up a can of worms for cars to park there it's just a matter of time it's one more thing to enforce um I don't know that the juice is worth the squeeze personally I think we should more enforc complic sorry and maybe a trial I think the suggestion we let's see what and what we can do in terms of safety bring it back to you and then possibly a trial to see what but I think if we can do a little more research and really go in there and take a look and how we could possibly delineate because there may not be an I'm concerned about I think there is enough space if you if you we would almost have to create like a turnaround and then somehow delineate that turnaround for vehicles from essentially where pedestrians would go and that's to keep it safe and have some sort of small fence or some type of boundary so that cars cannot go beyond a certain point and if you make it a a kind of a turnaround you're I mean you're you know you're not going to be able to park there it would be very diff you could but I mean you'd be blocking everybody if you did that then you risk getting a punctured Tire or something I have a couple questions um number one Megan when you cut down the uh that Mangrove Mangrove area uh did you see a less homeless people encampment in there you know it changes often over there so I would say at least once a week we are removing any type of kayak or um paddle board or dingies canoes um they pull them up wherever they can they try to disguise them as much as they can but we have signage over there everywhere that says no moing I think Deputy craigger is coming to talk um but they'll remove the signage so we have obviously we've had trash issues over there um because of the Der or the boats I'm not going to call them deric vessels we've had several issues over there but I'm gonna let craigger talk thank you hi folks how are you I'm Deputy craer I'm one of your community police officers Deputy snd is also here not really a professional at this um this is as I said B Centennial Park that's the drive over I'm usually here about 4:30 in the morning trying to keep an eye on things particularly as Miss Megan said the uh homeless issue you have back here are your Australian pines uh they love to Camp right back in here uh I usually do come over this bridge in the morning check back in here this is all sand this is this is sand this is soft sand I got a four-wheel drive that the sheriff provides for me so I can get back on your beaches in the soft area but when it's very dry like it is now and Megan can attest to this this sand turns into Sugar Sand even with the four-wheel drive it gets very soft and it's hard for me to get around sometimes um if folks start coming across here this is still sand and the more vehicles that come back here the softer this sand gets the more uh ruts you get put back in here uh our homeless like to come in here sleep down here so like I said I do come back in here about 4:30 every morning and try to take care of any issues we have have back in here that's why we don't have a huge issue I get on the beach um archal Park uh John's Pass Park and in the beach areas and also your pocket Parks so I'm around all the time in the morning so uh and I try to take care of that along with Deputy Snider on the weekends thank you yeah and the last question is concerning the [Music] um der boats that are off off that area right there there's a couple new ones um that uh the residents have asked me to uh address that issue and see what um is going to go on with uh are they the owner going to pull those out are we in contact with the owners at all I'll get with the Marine unit but the Marine the sheriff's Marine unit identifies they have their process that they go through and they notify the property owners and if they need to be removed the prop owner removes it if they don't then the sheriff goes through their process to Mark and get it removed um I don't know the schedule but I can certainly find out I mean they usually wait till there's a larger number but I know there are at least two out there um and think I'm pretty sure the Marine unit's aware of it they did a a review for um anchor lighting because we had a a request um and they did I think it was a total of 27 or 28 boats that they looked at or maybe a little bit I forget exactly but you'll get it in your weekly update and they did Issue some um notifications from missing lights um so any they're they're out there I think they're aware but I'll follow up as to what's happening with the the one looks like it's on its side I don't know if it's still that way but one one other quick question in the past I know that that water was tested by St Pete college and it was tested to be um heavy with microplastics and pollutants are we in charge of testing that water no that's the either the county or D I think the county does County does the water testing is where if you go archal park has a sign at one or two of the access points two of them that say that this is a water monitoring area they check for water quality um so we can we'll ask the county if they've been out here I don't think this is a regular testing monitor no and I think ever since they replaced the Force main um and I would think that was back in 2015 16 17 somewhere around then I know prior to that the water quality over there was not well but that's all been replaced so I'm not sure i' have to check with them yeah we'll find out we'll check so if that seems we can do our research then get back to to you and then see about a possible test period And I would just remind the commission that the agreement specific specifically provides that any modification of the park at all has to be approved by the school board so we shouldn't just be out there doing things or making changes to it without the school board's permission and I'd also mention to you that there's specific Provisions in here that prohibits us from damaging the property so if Deputy kigger is taking a position or telling us that vehicle traffic damages the property by creating ruts that's a violation of the agreement that we've entered into the school board we may put ourselves in a position where we lose the right to use this property so um anyhow it's a very short agreement and it's not real specific as to what can happen or what can't happen out there but um we just need to be very very careful and one thing I just just being an Oldtimer here I just wanted to remind the commission that this was the dog park at one point and in fact um former commissioner hush kavah donated ,000 to the city to put water there for dogs to be able to use that Park so that's why you may be hearing that it was the dog park it it was so I would think that we would I don't know that you want to spend a lot of time researching in my opinion the temporary I there's just too many things against it I'm sorry that's my thought it's fine as it is well I can also ask the school board I mean I don't I would infer that they don't have much of a plan but I don't know it'd be interesting to find out just that wouldn't take that long just to inquire and see and but I don't know if even I think Jay has the the most frequent relationship with um in this area but it's primarily with the school regarding the regarding um using the athletic fields and other programming um I don't think Jay that it's really been about this specific area in that relationship but um and it may not and likely the contact for this is not anybody at the school it's somebody in the administrative office for the school district but it might worthy just of a call and see what their thoughts are they may come back and say no we just leave it as is we're not going to let you and then it then it's over at that point that's probably the place to be the place to begin anything else all right next up is item number five city manager city manager employment agreement Second Amendment and mayor and Commissioners I've had discussions with each one of you um regarding um your city manager and the employment and the work and everything that's been done uh we had discussed at this over the last few months regarding an employment uh agreement Amendment so this the item is before you for discussion um and similar to a little over a year ago when my original agreement was amended uh we just had an item here and as part of the workshop and at that point the agreement was extended for an additional two uh two years extension or excuse me a year extension and this one what and per our discussions just requesting a two-year extension and an additional four vacation leave work days uh to increase that to 25 um no other request I'm extremely content with the being here working serving as the city manager I have for nearly two and a half years and I couldn't ask for a better place to work this is the fourth city I would love to obviously be here for at least those next two years and continue to do the work that we've done and I think the staff uh really is we're doing a lot of lot of great great things every day and then looking forward for you know into the future for our capital projects and OB obviously ensuring that we keep a safe City maintain our infrastructure uh and ensure that we're you know constantly redeveloping and and or encouraging um the economic Vitality of our city not necessarily redeveloping uh in terms of everything obviously but so that's um the item before you again we've discussed it a few times in our one-on ones and I leave it up back to you first up as public comment on this would anyone like to com comment okay no public comment back to the Commissioners I personally would like to this is a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned the way it is but I'd like to um take it a bit further and get discussions going on how we can make it more of a permanent situation um both sides of the agreement would have an opportunity it wasn't working out for the city or it wasn't working out for the city manager to be able to uh get out of that um agreement for whatever reason but um just as a quick want off I'd love to see uh Robin stick around until for an additional two years at minimum uh my my thoughts are along those lines I'm fine with the extension through the 26 because I as as as commissioner Kerr suggested uh if a if a city manager does something that we don't like we're not obliged to to keep him if uh as a commission as a board we can dismiss them even if they're if it's before 2026 uh and it's with regards to the vacation leave I I have no issues with that I'm sorry to interrup just one thing I'm sorry I didn't mention that yes so nothing else in the agreement changes except those two items so yes the provisions of terminating obviously stay there's no no change to that and so you don't have to keep me around till 2026 as both of you have stated I I just wasn't I didn't mention that but yes that's important those Provisions are still in there and that can happen at any time my my point was just that it and you know why do we need to go through this every couple of years I'd like to be able to figure out how to make it more of a any other position within the city unless the charter states that we have to you know since you know the top official has to be on a contract basis versus um you know following the same pay increases that staff would get or um any other open items you know with a with an employment agreement why does it have to be different I don't know I would tend to agree with um commissioner Kerr if at nothing I would at least like to see it go out three years reelect the mayor for three years so um I do I do want to say that I have been lucky enough to spend time with a lot of the city staff and Robin has brought stability to the city and he's brought stability to the staff and and one of the things that I've heard from more than two handfuls of people is you may not always agree but it's respectful and the staff knows where they stand they want to come to work he does things on his own that do not come out of the city for the staff I mean he's really done a great job of taking us from chaos within the employees to a staff that wants to come and come to work and feels appreciated and I think that's a really big deal I would like to see his contract extended for at least three years I also agree with the uh Commissioners um I believe Robin is doing a great job as our city manager um I believe three years is fair and we should look at that and decide as a um board what we're going to do as as far as extending that to three years I would like to see two but it says it it has to be a written contract that it I'm assuming that means a non-employee but a contract I just took a quick Gander at the charter yeah the charter requires that it be a written employment agreement yeah I I would support three three years and the and the the sick Le the uh vacation leave addition three or two three three okay three three isn't that what uh commissioner Brooks yeah I wouldn't want to extend it out too far without adding some sort of uh compensation increase over time I mean that's why I mean I'd extended we could make it a a five-year contract with steps and uh compensation I don't you know they Robin was kind enough to say that you know he's doing just fine um he really appre would appreciate the additional vacation days um I think it would be overstepping for the city to say okay well we'll put you on for as many years as you want but it's no we haven't talked about compensation so um as you can see prices do go up so that same compensation needs to be bumped um either you know on an on an annual basis equal to what we do with the city staff or um just a finite amount or how we want to look at that does does this contract say we did it for three years does this Prelude discussions of salary increase or could that happen uh in event regard regardless I mean we did it we did it at uh without a end of a contract before um if we wanted to or if you wanted to uh request a raise or if we wanted to give you a raise we would I mean we don't need that's really not part of this discussion is it I mean we can do it no but if we're gonna if we're GNA rewrite a contract I think we should get it behind us and write it whatever whatever we feel is let me just jump in the contract currently provides and addition to the annual salary in section 3B it says as follows in addition City may increase the base salary Andor benefits of manager in such amounts and to such extent as Bo May determine it is desirable to do so upon the basis of an annual review of manager salary so you're you're covered for that so as I understand we already have a process for increasing salary on annual basis that's the provision currently in the agreement and that's not changing so you'll have the ability to do that whether the request comes from the city manager or you want to provide it to him without a request you have the right contractually to do that so we're so we're covered for that and just to be clear I'm perfectly happy with the salar at this point but I'm sorry and the benefits as well by the way I would suggest then that we instead of two we make it four years and that we put it on the annual Workshop to to talk about uh salaries every I don't know pck November I mean but it should just come up annually to be able to discuss it or semi or something normally it would be on the on an annual basis on the term of the contract that the contract was executed in December of 2021 so unless you want to change that for budgetary purposes no you can always do that but there's nothing in the agreement that tells you when it has to occur right I just don't want to put the onus on the city manager to say hey guys I think I'm up for a raise I'd like it to be something that automatically comes up annually as a discussion Point that's so we should change that provision of the agreement then as well so it's all together not done by resolution or motion that should be in the agreement so whatever the direction is I'll be happy to prepare the agreement so I think that during the extended years whether we decide on three or or four um another point would be that it tells the staff of the city that we support the city manager and that their leader has the support of this commission and I think that's that's also very important so I would be three for whatever the consensus would be on that yes and make it a part of a provision in the and what uh Mr tras was saying to make it annual it's going to happen whether anybody asked for or not we're going to talk about it maybe maybe on the year on the date or the year month that he signs a contract now December is not a good we missed meetings uh November Maybe uh was there a month in particular when we would you we want to talk about it make it a provision we probably want to tie it somewhat to budget budget October or before since we're usually done by October me probably then in May or June when we're putting together the budgets I would say may as we're preparing makes sense looking to finalize having the budget meeting I would yeah that sounds good four make it every we talk about it for the salary increase I'm in favor of that I'm in favor of that I'm also in favor of that all right next item up then is gulf bees Public Library fiscal 2025 budget and mayor and commission uh did we have provided you a copy of their budget and we have Library board member who is madira Beach's representative Helen happy price to give you an update on yes hi everybody um first I'd like to say that the library's overall budget increased or we're proposing that it increases just 1.04% from last year now that's a little deceiving because it sounds like you only paid 1% more than you did last year but on the same vein we are paying a little more only because we share the expens of the library by population with four other towns as you know up and down the three Readington Us in Treasure Island and three of the towns have their residents um numbers went down their population went down so our 25% 24.8% it went up to like 25.8% this year so that's why it it doesn't look like just a 1% increase from last year but um we worked hard on this budget there's four categories where the you know we we lowered the amount just because it was more realistic or we found that we weren't really spending that money um that was travel and training uh departmental supplies reference sources and audiobooks but then there's of course increases um like we did put a 3% salary increase built in for next year um the big increase as you can see from like halfway down building maintenance our last year budget was 8,500 we're proposing 18,500 this time and that's because back in April when we prepared this uh for your review uh we were understanding that we had to replace a pipe between the bathrooms in the library to the hookup with uh penel County we were told that there's an area where the pipe actually goes up a little bit and it was causing some back up when the bathrooms were used a lot which is really only when they have an event or when they have a a group say the Financial Group you know ends for the day and and all five stalls are being used there's an issue there we still do have that issue but we have found out since because we're multiple contractors looking at this and trying to get us a good deal and we're going to wrap the pipes or line the pipes and trying to do everything except you know get under our parking lot parking garage or streets and replace it um and it looks like we may have a solution uh we're going to try it for a little while which is basically Closing one of the ladies stalls um putting up a lot more signage about what can and cannot go down a toilet and um we found out also that we were not getting right information about that pipe going up a little bit it is going down but it the slope is so very slight uh it's not very much and the problem is we have a a building built 50 years ago with the what was required at that time versus what it is today and we're kind of out of sync with what uh the county requires we can live with it for now and we're going to try different things but um that's why that was increased 10,000 and it may be that we do have to replace that pipe we don't know um certainly if we don't use it it'll roll over for next year um everything else is just like regular slight increases 500 here 700 there um we didn't increase our utilities too too much because all those LED lighting that we put in has really saved us um we got a new AC so we didn't have to kind of build in any everything's under warranty still um that's it anyone have any questions I can oh and I know um commissioner Brooks asked me last time what's the difference between dues and subscriptions and Library subscriptions and I'll remind everybody the difference is dues and subscriptions is just the software uh programs that we have to have that enables us to communicate with other libraries and uh have people that sit in our library and use our computers there's an Envision software that all libraries have and it's just not cheap um the library subscriptions on the other hand are all the magazines Wall Street Journal New York Times USA Today Tampa Bay Times you know Glamour magazine everything that we have like magazines physical magazines so those both went up a little bit but not not terribly and um we did budget 5,000 more uh dollars this year for ebooks and electronic content because that is the fastest growing uh Department we have and we just want to keep up and make sure we always have those ebooks for people who want them so there's any other questions do you doing a great job happy okay good I I I I had the privilege of of of sitting on the board meeting once uh a few weeks back they're very they're very well organized and they we were talking about this budget then and Happy's done a great job of making making a clear and concise presentation nothing here s strikes me as questionable uh if we're approving it i' I'd be in favor of it and just a reminder it has to be approved by June 30th and I think it will be on your upcoming uh yeah it'll be at the meeting June regular meeting and I would also like to um remind everyone that we an alternate needs to be appointed so I don't know if any of you all want to be an alternate you just show up when I can't show up that's kind of rare but it nice to have some of the alternates show up every every meeting and we allow the input we like the input so they can't vote if your main person's there but uh if you'd like to go and get to know what's going on in the library become an alternate great job okay thank you and also remind everyone about the uh you can still purchase the bricks for the library right you can you can just go on our website there's still $100 we're doing the back patio uh with all you know memorative bricks people are even asking if they can have a brick and walk take it out with them and that's absolutely available too we can we can do that as well so bricks are available um also want to remind everybody who's if if you got a library card you really have access to a lot of newspapers and um magazines and things that you can read online and um really that's it oh and and we're going to have a new time capsule put back in the wall at the end of this year so we'll have that as a fundraiser hopefully earn some more money so be thinking of that as well I reminded you the box isn't very big it's not we could put some fun stuff in there so if I made two other quick things one you do offer notary services yes we do $5 to have which is very reasonable notary service and also one thing that when I shared with people they're like wow that's actually really cool uh passes to certain museums absolutely two free passes uh museums of Fine Art the Imagine Museum Holocaust Museum not every Museum museums in other towns Sarasota all the way up to Dun Eden you just go in there and you can check them out and and basically they're like virtual and um they're for one week for two people and you I mean the Western Museum the James Western Museum that what a gem that is and that's like 30 bucks to get in so if you can catch them because some you know they sign them out kind of a thing but uh yeah and Now's the Time because you know it's get me summertime and it's all a lot of locals I you it's very difficult to get those Museum passes in February and stuff when we have a lot of people in town so all right thank you thank you and as far as the library board is concerned you can give Robin a 10year contract okay he he was at our last meeting and really wowed everybody so uh thank you very much for that thank you all right thank you is there any public comment on the uh public or the library budget all right no public comment all right next up is discussion on our parking hourly rate so uh mayor and commission as you're to remind everyone uh the city in last increased its parking uh this is the parking at 500 approximately 5 to 550 we've had a few changes even after we published this a week ago um the rate has been $3 an hour um and as we're putting together our budget for next year this would be a good time to have uh this discussion uh specifically looking at um what the what our rate should be uh where we are relative to our neighbors uh and specifically just up and down the pellis county uh Co post you have a lot of information in this agenda item in the packet uh including again a comparison with other again other cities areas Etc we'll go over that in just a moment um also other things to consider uh going forward into the future uh we did discuss earlier today during the budget uh meeting uh regarding a parking garage going forward some additional or newer technology that we may use uh for assisting the public in parking assisting for parking enforcement um just other things to keep in in mind but if you look in of the first uh right after the agenda memo there's a spreadsheet listing the comparison um really up and down our Coast uh and it's even I found I've lived in pelis county and worked in pelis county for 22 years of in two different cities and I was sort of I I uncovered some things that I had was never aware of um which is good um but as you can see kind of starting in the northern part of the county moving our way down the coast um only Indian Rocks the city of Indian Rocks Beach has a lower um hourly visitor rate than we do at 250 um they offer I think I listed 58 spaces um that they people can pay for at their city building or Municipal Building um and then actually walk right across the street and you're just a few feet from the sand so that's an access point uh for anybody going to the beach um we're the same as clear water with the exception of all the clear water on Street spaces out on clearw beach they charge 350 you can see some of the other smaller cities and towns of b beach at $5 an hour although they do and they have only two lots so far fewer spaces than than we have but they go to on the weekends and holidays they're $10 an hour but you are limited to 3 hours uh parking at both of those lots up in Bair Beach um to all the way down Treasure Islands at 375 uh and St Pete Beach at $4 and 475 on the weekends um however they do have a I think you can call this a little bit of a dynamic pricing they do charge $25 for an entire day on three the three main holiday weekends Memorial Day 4th of July um and Labor Day although I didn't ask what they do when 4th of July falls in the middle of the week like it does this year whether it's just on that day or the day before the day after but um either way for Memorial Day Friday Saturday Sunday Monday if you go to St Pete Beach it's $25 to park whether you're there for one hour or 30 minutes an hour or the entire day 10 12 hours so then you get a better hourly rate um so that that spreadsheet just lists of all of the and I included even some of the county Lots uh we have a county lot in Mader Beach U at 144th so it's a pelis County public beach access and the county um charges they manage and maintain the lot and they charge the same as we do um although it did take them I think a little bit more than a year after we increased the rate for the county at that lot to change their rate from $250 to $3 but now our Park the one at at St Pete Beach one in Readington Shores in Indian Rocks Beach they have different hourly rates to match what the cities um in those communities uh charge per hour uh I failed to mention Indian Rocks Beach um they have last I counted about 180 spaces the spreadsheet says 150 plus they do offer free parking uh which I'm not recommending um they on Spaces in approximately I think it was about 17 Street ends on the west side of Gulf Boulevard uh throughout their city um I don't know how long they've had that but so they they're the only one that does not charge for parking uh the other actual County maintained larger Parks um your San key Park in Clearwater Fred Howard Park up in Tarpon Springs and are $5 flat for the whole day Fort doto Park all the way down at the southern end um Honeymoon Island is a state park um they charge $8 for the whole day so you have a list of what all the hourly rates are um just for really informational purposes um a little about our parking Enterprise I mean it's in the memo what our revenues have um increased to last year was the highest that we had ever collected just over 4.2 million um up from and see on the screen um the total revenue from The Meters fines and other parking permits um last year just over 4.1 million up from 3.5 um 2.8 almost in fiscal 2021 again it was December of 21 so reason you see an increase from 21 to 22 um a little bit from 22 to 23 on the parking meter column um and then this year we've had a little bit of a decline we're forecasted to be about 10% um through our collections in April um but also what the sheet shows is our parking fines and where we have gone from pretty much just we stopped uh issuing almost stopped issuing fines uh covid and postco to then enforcing our parking and issuing fines uh that's combined with the fine amounts increased uh for if you don't pay to park from $60 from $40 excuse me to 60 and then improper parking I believe was 60 or 70 was 80 and went to 90 for improper parking um which are equivalent to Treasure Treasure Island is 60 if you don't pay to park Park and 80 if you park improperly um so the both of us are at the highest countywide um so you can see obviously the the our Revenue increases uh the parking fines increasing as well um in having a full-time parking enforcement that has increased some of our expenses collecting more money actually increases a little bit because of the technology that we use to um collect as well as to enforce course um but we are fully we have only gone from believe a low end of 2.5 full-time equivalents in the mid 210s to currently we have five full-time equipments we have two full-time um three part-time I'm sorry three full-time two part-time staff and we just recently uh filled the vacant part-time position so we are now fully staffed the first time in several months so the expenditures have gone up for that um for that reason as well as insurance and just the cost of living salary increases Etc where we go into the future um I think realistically we need to look at an at an increase and that increase to be probably somewhere um similar to what our neighbors to the South are are charging whether $375 or $4 an hour would be and again it's this is an Enterprise fund it was strictly a a general fund operation but I um it would be very difficult to U borrow or issue bonds for a parking garage without having a dedicated parking fund to show your all your receipts all your revenue and all your expenditures your inflows and outflows um I think that's really almost a requirement in order to obtain debt to finance a parking structure or a multimodal facility into the future uh but going forward uh as we discussed during the budget Workshop likely there is an opportunity for lowering um expenses into the future through technology um specifically for enforcement we can lower expenses also by um eliminating some of eliminating eventually all the kiosks and meters um we do currently have 23 um I don't think that spreadsheet yeah it should be 23 operational meters and I think we have six or set yeah it's on this spreadsheet here 23 kios and meters each one Jamal is about to purchase a brand new one it's about eight eight to 10,000 eight to $10,000 just to purchase a new kiosk or meter um but there we are seeing more and more communities go to no longer having the parking meter or kiosk it is 100% um based on a phone you either pay via the app you can um scan the QR code at various signs and it takes you to a website and you pay that way um I don't know if they will continue to have the 1866 number but you know you could there are a few companies where you can call and then automated system you pay um in all of those you do have to provide your um your vehicle license plate that's how the enforcement takes place is the enforcement staff scan the plate to determine if you paid or if you have a permit um but in the future that is one way that we we have removed some of the kiosks and meters uh specifically in Jamal you can on the smaller Lots at 13 first 33rd West and East 134th as as well West and East and 135th all have removed the actual kiosk or meter The Meters so again they're fair and then to the the maintenance of them you no longer need the staff to I know we we being on where we are on an island at the coast the card readers tend to not work very often indeed constantly seeing people trying to get a better view of the screen particularly depending on the placement of the sun and the glare um although we are going to put some temporary um kind of shading um that will help that but eventually that's where we're looking um to go again Readington Beach is I'm sorry Readington Shores already if you go to that county park there is no longer a kiosk or a meter as well as the uh two lots that are in Readington Shores they are you just have to pay via the app or or online uh and again we would also I think offer a phone number for the ability to pay for those that um are not that knowledgeable on apps or or using the internet and might I add just with proper information through our website and then proper availability through Staffing and then myself um we have not had any hiccups when it comes to removal when it comes to REM of the removal of the Met meters that we have ready so it's been quite steady we haven't had any con I mean any um I guess anybody complain or Express concerns hey I couldn't pay if you can well I've shared with with each one of you and I think um vice mayor and commissioner McAn did a rideal with the park parking step certainly the rest of you can schedule that as well but uh parking enforcement is not a fun activity nobody likes to receive a a violation and for parking uh we staff is very very uh very I I guess I don't know what else but very calm very listening to people you know scream and yell and get very upset and try to calm the situation but it is a difficult process but we either enforce or we don't enforce if you're not going to enforce then you probably shouldn't why charge um you know and that's possibly why some cities don't charge for parking and I know of two others in the region that do I'm not going to mention them because for 22 years I've been hearing it it was just down there and it was free well sorry but I will say that our sand and our and the other cities that do tend to keep a cleaner sand because some of that money is utilized to keep the sand clean and your parks and your parking areas as clean as possible um so at this point I can open up for discussion or any question that you may have of first thing is there any public comment basically we're talking about possibly raising the parking rates please come up thank you now you've done it oh my I'm cing guys Doug Andrews uh I have a business at 1361 or I'm sorry 13601 Gul Boulevard um for four years I sat in Edge chair here and um this was my main contention that anytime the city needs money we everybody goes oh why don't we just raise the parking rate why don't we just raise the parking rate why don't we just raise the parking rate um the and Robin knows I love him this isn't a personal attack on him um but I fought very hard and I fought a lot of people here that would always just say oh the truth is what we should be asking ourselves is what other forms of Revenue are we generating in the city because you can't keep going to the well okay um looking at these charts nothing in the parking numbers from the other cities screams that we are grossly under underpricing out you got to throw belir Beach out they don't want anybody on their Beach anyway so that doesn't count um we're right in line with clear water I'm not saying not to raise the pricing but what we need to look at is a couple of different things um grab some pencils because I'm going to give you a couple of numbers to write down last year the revenues here were 44.2 million and the cost to run the department was $400,000 right so we're looking at about a at 3.8 we good with those okay this year are revised numbers now these weren't the initial numbers that you were given but these are the revised numbers you're looking at revenues of 3.6 million with a cost of 600,000 to run the division okay so your net to the city has gone from $3.8 to $3 million okay that's an $800,000 give or take 700 $800,000 net difference okay now we're going to make that up by go into the well now let's say next year we have red tide or next year we have another slow year we can't predict what's going to go on with these Revenue numbers so we have to find either places to cut or places to do certain things to make this kind of go away because I don't think this is the answer because next year if you need money what are you gonna do raise it to five bucks an hour six bucks an hour you can't just keep going on it so basically in my opinion this this enormous jump that we're talking about 75 cents or a dollar on $3 30 some odd percent right um I I think this jumps reactionary um but we haven't figured out the big question was this year the anomaly or were the two years before that the anomaly okay so we don't really know how we're planning this out and what we're doing going forward and how does Andrew write a budget based on what we're seeing in front of us okay because we don't know I will tell you as a business owner my business is probably off about 10% year-over-year which pretty close to what your parking revenues off maybe a little bit more about 15% and I think most of the businesses down here are doing the same thing um but I think the important thing to do is too uh and and I know Mr tagini spends a lot of time in his district uh have you talked to the business owners in John's Pass about this because if you talk to them they think it should be free parking because that's how it was years ago um and remember a dollar increase 10 years ago was a dollar to park here per okay now we're talking about you know the these are big numbers and if there businesses are down 10% if you just think of it logically do you increase your rate when your business is lower or do you increase your rate when you're doing really well based on supply and demand you increase your rate when your business is going really well we've seen a decline this year so we're not filling as many spots so what's the idea are we going to fill more spots by adding a dollar an hour no that doesn't even make any sense that's like if I wasn't selling enough Snickers bars and I said well you know what at $3 an hour I'm not selling I'll raise it to $4 an hour am I going to sell more no you're going to sell less okay so you guys got to consider that as you go through this basically the bottom line is we need new Revenue sources okay we got a lot of new costs and it's not based on anything Robin's doing or anything like that we've got huge labor surges right increased Insurance the new F FRS plan okay um you know at the end of the day it's irresponsible to just keep going out there and using this as your only source of additional Revenue now what's your other alternative you raise the millage rate okay well nobody wants to do that everybody's going to come here at pitchforks if anybody knows more about that than me then I I don't know we had two votes was it three years ago and voted for an increase until I went through the budget with Andrew and we found $300,000 that we were able to on the third vote able to cancel that out you're not going to be that lucky this year we're just talking about $800,000 that you're looking at that you're not going to be able to find okay so I'm going to telling you not to do it okay what I'm telling you is you got to you got to be careful with this because what you're doing is you're basically handicapping every board that comes in after you okay because if they need money I would tell them the same thing be careful about this because there's only so high you're going to be able to go and at some point especially with these incre I'm sorry give me two seconds I'll wrap up go ahead um especially with these costs your your fix cost Rising so high you're probably going to have to look when I was when I first came on board as the parks and rec director the first order of business they did was they subcontract the parks department I was like what are you doing you're taking away my staff the end of the day it looked like a good decision because of the money we saved on that this might not be a bad time to throw out an exploratory RFP to see if this is something we could subcontract out it'll save you bottom line at the end of the day you're going to save $600,000 a year if you do a five-year contract you're going save $3 million right off the Jump on cost that you on fixed cost that you are going to have to pay no matter what that doesn't include any Capital any software cost that you're talking about the $50,000 for the new software the buildings the trucks any increases in salary that didn't even count that $600,000 a year for five years is $3 million okay you get somebody to come in here and buy your parking for five years they'll pay you a set rate it'll make Andrew's job a lot easier because they'll know how much money you're dealing with okay sorry I'm sorry I went over no that's okay thank you very much for the information so is Mr Andrews correct and the parking budget to operate what we're doing is is 600k a year ter in terms of I mean Staffing vehicles I guess that's what he's all I mean the expenses are are what they are and obviously we look to keep those increases to a minimum um but it's a very I mean he's correct in the you know what you're not going to know what's going to happen I mean we're affected by weather by lots of factors as to what's that happening but I'm I'm I think we'd have to look a little bit more into what he stated in terms of the revenue but I will say that I'm not supportive we can certainly issue but I'm not supportive of Outsourcing I think that is a uh just not the the correct process to go to what he was saying though was right now our hard cost to conduct parking enforcement is 600k a year that's the entire operation that's not just for I mean the majority of that is for enforcement yeah but likely in future years that is as I stated that is going to decrease as through technology um and other just changes that we make and as we get rid of meters and Etc that's definitely going to go down because we're not going to need to play to pay for those go ahead J yeah so I'm GNA try to explain it um Doug did just did make some valid points but at the same time if you're looking at parking as a as a singularity so I'm out there every day and I look at the numbers every day and if you isolate it um we're we're not shorten business or revenue or or visitors um if anything we're lacking in the ability of the technology and then I mean staffing has gotten a lot better but it's it's mainly an issue of just what I'm trying to say is um am I trying to say here it's okay apologize um basically what I'm trying to say is we need more structure as far as being out there regulating it constantly because there is a lot we're not catching um and it's simply we're not in lack of visitors we're just visitors not paying to park so there is they they're occupying spaces um just not so much where we're able to basically yeah capture every I mean every dollar that we really should be but I mean the expenses are have increased uh and that but that I mean that's going to happen year after year and except for the changes that I've mentioned that are going to happen and lower the expenses but you know the if you look I mean the enforcement and where it's gone that has generated that additional Revenue we would never have had before uh because that's what the data shows is we were just not enforcing or collecting um to the level that we should be I mean that's that's just a fact looking at the at the spreadsheet and the data and the revenue um but in terms I mean there's obvious obviously expenses in enforcing and you and having the staff and the equipment I'm not so sure again if we if we sell the Enterprise okay so we're not going to be spending on average probably 400,000 4 to 500,000 over X number of years that we do that we lose total control of the parking which currently that is about the biggest issue that we face in parking from private operators out here and and really currently there's only one uh there are two I'm sorry there are three but we hear from the largest one from businesses in the village with a significant concerns over that private company operating out there and throughout the city um and we didn't I didn't even mention I just briefly mentioned their parking rates because they the those rates range from below of $4 an hour to as high as as much as 13 well currently $11 an hour um as much as $40 for a whole day so the private are are different because they do charge significantly more and then people who do receive a violation can't find anybody to speak with or to address with the violation until recently that found an email address and a phone number of an individual that the public can reach but regard I just don't see how I mean you can look at how to raise your your you should be looking or having some sort of plan to raise your rates over time and we do have to stay somewhat in line with neighbors now if you are lower are you going to get more people probably but if you're that much lower than your competition we will be losing um but currently we're not significantly lower we can leave the rate as is but just looking as to what's happening around us U they've been raising we're the you know we raised it once in the last I guess when was the last time before December 21 18 in 2018 I believe yeah could I have Mr Andrews come back up here for a minute would you mind can you give us those numbers again in what years you're talking about oh sure please and let me State before I even say that I think Jamal does a wonderful job that this has nothing to do with how this is being run or the board there um the numbers were straight off straight off there you can basically see them on here okay um you've got your total fiscal year total 4.1 I I I think Robin had put it on the thing is 4.2 so that's the number I used when you take it across fiscal year for the annual totals 4.2 million 4.1 million and the bottom one is the second year 3.6 million the costs costs are up a little over $150,000 um they went from about $450 in fisal year 2023 to a little over 600 here's the yeah the expenditures for the current year budget at 612,000 last year actual were 463 463 okay 150 yeah $150,000 rounded up yep y okay so there's your two numbers so basically but the average you can see the year I mean the average has been about 400 a little over 400,000 for the prior three years it's this year where the budget was a little bit higher and I mean we can look as to the reason Insurance F FRS I mean and I'm not contradicting your OB no the costs aren't going to go down except for with technology in the in the future cost of labor cost of and if we're saying that we're not managing the spots what does that mean we don't have enough people so do we we need another person which will add more to the budget or is it a technology issue that we're not managing the thing there I I will disagree with with Jamal on the fact that we're not for a lack of visitors because every business in town is down I mean there's you can knock on any business owner's door and they say Well w we had a pretty good boom during during covid and we've kind of settled back into kind of pre-co numbers so like I said this has nothing to do with the staff this has nothing to do I don't want to see anybody lose their jobs it's you're the stewards of the city it's your fiscal responsibility to make sure that we're running in the right direction and at some point like I said when I walked in and I got a staff taken away from me and then all of a sudden I started looking at the numbers like oh now I see why this makes more sense because it's easier to take a a a situation like that and subcontract it out okay in order to make the division or the unit stronger as it on its own you know the bottom line is we're not the federal government we are not allowed to run a $4 trillion in a net negative budget right you can't do that we have to have a balanced budget in order to get it approved by the state so just an idea guys that's just something to look at and that's why you just got to be careful that every time you need money you can't just go you know some maybe maybe it is a mill rate that you got to do okay you got to bite the bullet and do that nobody wants to do it but at the end of the day nothing nothing's cheaper than it used to be and every time we go out and do another road project guess what if we did it 15 years ago what would it been a quarter of the price okay we didn't okay so but that's left on you guys now because these roads aren't going to get better by themselves they're gonna keep deteriorating until they're fixed and there's a plan in place to do so where's the money going to come from thank you for the clarification coming back up and also mayor and commission keep in mind this is an Enterprise fund that just started last year so prior to that this was all general fund Revenue so that is a a pretty big difference and also we're just again the reason for this or or mentioning an increase is to stay competitive not because we need more money I mean if you look at the spreadsheet obviously the revenue has been increasing um and it's been increasing substantially due to the number of visitors but also because we reinforced and rededicated the actual enforcement that means staff went out and started identifying vehicles and writing citations for those did not pay mainly and secondly for those that parked improperly they parked where they should not have Etc and I mean that's a you know we averaged from and I was telling Jamal the other day we were not even covering our total Personnel costs for the parking enforcement because for numerous years if you just look equipment aside Capital aside everything just salaries and benefits they were more than the amount of parking fines more than the 83,000 2018 116,000 in 2019 79,000 I know it was covid year FIS 37,000 we were spending double to two to three times in the Enterprise um and then we began the enforcing Revenue goes up combined with the uh rate but again it's not this isn't we're looking to stay and we wouldn't even begin to uh the new whatever the new rate might be would not go into effect until October one just to reiterate um I I do not know the the revenue of the shop owners I'm just strictly stating the traffic of the vehicles in and out they might not purchase anything at a shop or a restaurant I mean of course the restaurant but again the traffic has been of course steady or less increased um and that's what I was referring to mainly so just the amount on the beach it's constant flow especially on the weekends and then of course Village is always busy um constantly so that's what I was mainly referring to I apologize Commissioners may I um this I'm sorry um when we had this discussion a year ago we were looking at the increase from 420 to 460 as far as expenses 10% increase in expenses but if you look back at the revenue uh it it was uh like $600,000 more it was a no-brainer um now the expenses have increased I think that's almost a separate discussion of what we're talking about here as far as the rates I think that there is a opportunity to reduce expenses with capital uh investments in technology um so I think that that discussion should be taken at at a separate workshop on how we can how we can do that I know um Robin and Jamal have been looking at different different options and um I think we'll get that that number down as far as Outsourcing it I recall having a presentation on Outsourcing it I think um Mr Andrews was part of that um I didn't I didn't care for the way it came across I felt like that was going to be a a negative for the city um so the discussion's really about the the rate and competition G given I'm I'm not out every day looking at the parking lots Jamal could speak to this but it seems like they're pretty pretty busy our neighboring Readington Shores Readington that's four bucks an hour neighbors to the South are 375 or four bucks an hour with Treasure Island and St Pete Beach so my gut is that we we definitely need to be competitive with them or we're leing leing we're leaving money on the table I don't I don't know of any tourist who's paying the fees because all the residents they're not paying anything I don't know of any tourists that are going to decide not to go to a restaurant or visit John's Pass Village or go to the beach because the of the dollar difference if it went to four bucks uh an hour when they're on vacation when they're down here for a week or a month or for the season whatever it is um I would think we'd want to bring ourselves in line and just as the previous board's done dedicate that to the parking structures that were going to build we're not sure where we're going to build them all those discussions still have to be be made but we're going to make an investment in parking garages and increasing the number of spaces which again it's going to increase our expenses but overall it's going to it's going to increase the bottom line um I don't see any loss of usage by increasing the the rate from $3 to $4 or whatever is negotiated but that's my two cents so I don't know whether or not we should increase the rate I think that going up a dollar is a lot to go from $3 to $4 that's a big jump um I would be concerned with how the businesses in John's Pass would feel about that people complain about having to pay to park and I understand the people paying or not the residents um but when we're talking about increasing what we're going to be bringing in if we're going to spend the money on technology we're going to lower our expenses we're going to increase our Reven Vue just by lowering our expenses through technology so I and I think that if you're talking about going up on parking pricing to increase Revenue I mean I would love to know where we could find another way to get Revenue in the city that wasn't through taxes or parking um I don't think anyone up here wants to increase taxes and but I also don't know that I think we should increase an entire dollar that just seems like it just seems like a lot commissioner MC yes I I agree with the the fact that um increasing it by a dollar is is quite a bit you know I'm willing to compromise on that maybe 50 cents you know started out there um but a dollar I would that's pretty steep that I believe I um there's a lot of uh restaurants and businesses in John's Pass that I believe would kind of uh be upset about the dollar increase if I'm one other thing to add about the village or two things one um that's some cities have gone to differing varying rates um so that's something to consider what that would be whether in the village is a rate than right along the Lots closest to the sand um you know there are some people that go to the village and go to the beach and vice versa but the majority if going to the sand they're in the sand those that go to the village and Boardwalk go to the village and the boardwalk U as I said earlier the private lot so the parking garage in the village I didn't mention I believe starts at $5 an hour um then I think it drops off for your second hour at $3 an hour so it's an average of $4 um I think I've shared with most of you then the other spaces that are privately owned in the village range from a low of of well in the lower time of the year less crowded $7 an hour to as much as almost $112 an hour and occasionally as much as $40 for the whole day uh but however they have been now that we're in the busiest time quite a few of the private spaces near um near the garage have been $20 in a minimum of two hours um so where they were last year only $4 an hour they made a pretty significant increase for the rate so we as I've already said a couple times we are well below the private sector Even in our own City let alone other cities um uh so regarding the the increase in parking um my initial response is I I'm uh not happy with raising the the parking but I see that uh Treasure Island is 375 we see that Indian Shores is four but let's remember that Readington sorry R Readington Shores is for Readington doesn't have any parking right next to us so that's a couple of beaches down before they compare it but seeing that they're at 375 I I don't feel strongly that we'd have to go to 375 I would be happy with 325 350 so I'm I'm in favor of a mo modest increase but I would go as high as 375 to match uh Treasure Island with regard to uh although it's not part of the discussion but since it's come up uh Contracting it out I would be opposed to that I'd like to be responsible for our parking we have a department uh a parking department and so like when when I when I get an email from a usually not a resident is from a guest who's complaining about $75 uh over day fee during a special event in John's past because of that contractor uh that parking contractor I my answer always has to be I'm so sorry that's out of my hands I would rather not have to say that I would rather be in charge so I can say well let's look at this and let's see basically I'm going to tell them why they have to pay that fee but it's but we know that it's our parking it's our decision uh with regards to revenue which is also not part of this uh Workshop but since it's come up uh Revenue I've often thought maybe we should since since we're using the park mobile style not a not a uh kiosk let's start charging for some of the free parking we have uh district one has a ton of free parking let's let's put up the the little the little sign that says you have to park mobile here I bet we could find a lot of places to uh charge where we're not charging at all so that's my feeling about parking we're not allowed to have a bed tax parking is our bed tax we have out of state or people visiting from Tampa um a dollar difference in parking is peanuts if you're going to dinner you're spending $100 $200 an extra dollar for parking is not going to keep you from going somewhere if you're just going to go down and enjoy the village going to the beach we're again this is a revenue source that I always ask myself and I've said it before how does it benefit the residents if as long as the those parking spots are going to be full we want my opinion we want to maximize what the market is and and the we've seen that what the market is the market is four bucks an hour if the bo if the you know that's my opinion if the rest of the board's not comfortable with that that's all about negotiation but um it's not like we're charging our res residents anything we're actually by by not maximizing the value of our assets which is the which is the parking um we're not maximizing the revenue that the city can use uh for services that are that are provided so um I wouldn't be squeamish about the rate again it's not it's not your neighbor do we know what they charge at the lot of cross from caddies somebody was telling me $6 an hour it was seven an hour six and seven an hour yeah okay and yeah it's either six or seven an hour okay I'm not sure if they went to the 2hour minimum that was the others most of these are 2hour minimum they'll either list a flat rate or the hourly rate yeah for the two-hour minimum I agree with Mr Andrews with what he's saying that we can't keep going back to the parking fund for things however that is its own Enterprise fund and that's driving us to build this parking garage that what is what that money is there for the only heartburn I have is it's costing us $600,000 a year for parking enforcement well that's what the budget we'll look at the budget in more detail and come back because we can again look exactly I think that had to do with some of the equipment and so we'll come back and give you much more detail of that so know there was an a budgeted item U for contracted Services um that was significantly higher than the prior year but so we'll look at that in detail and again it'll again it has averaged under 4 I mean about 400,000 and that's really kind of where it should be with the full staff of the two three fulltime and two part-time and just equipment keep it in you know there are expenditures related that do increase when we are we've gone to where we're now probably 50% with the people paying on the app versus paying at the kiosk about a year ago it was like a 7030 70% were paying on the meter kiosk 30% via the app um if you pay via the app that transaction fee in aggregate increases and I mean we're simply a pass through we collect the 45 cents and then pass it on to Park Mobile um so that has increased as more people are using um the app which increases to give you perspective to add that total operating expenditures of the parking Management Department fiscal year 2023 audited were $623,000 in 2022 it was $420,000 the the account that was the the uh biggest driver of that change was the processing fees and that was and so that it doesn't get netted from revenue we we put that in operating expenses and so in 2023 uh that number was $250,000 2022 that number was uh1 185,000 so about a 60,000 of that 200k increase related to those um those fees that are associated with transaction processing so obviously higher volume as Robert mentioned drives the higher the increased cost well I think at $4 an hour that's middle of the road for us that's where I would be okay with actually between between 375 and four that puts us middle of the road we're not the lowest we're not the highest it's going into the parking fund to build this garage and we're not robbing it correct Peter to pay Paul kind of thing so I think that makes logical sense we're going to need Revenue to pay these bonds that we're going to float to build these garages if we can get ahead of it and right now we have a a million dollars in the fund I point to Mr Andrews because he was a part of that I think he he uh steam rolled that bad bad choice of terms but you he introduced that 50 cents to go towards that and it's gone a long way I'd like to do the same thing and add a add the dollar and put it directly into that fund because we're going to have millions of dollars and if we don't have to if the bond is a little bit lower and the revenue is a little bit higher it's going to be a lot easier to swallow and keep our millage rate the same and that that is doing something for the residents that's benefiting the residents and my my apology just to clarifi clarify one another thing I did say parking fund uh the up on the screen the majority of parking goes into the parking fund but we also have parking Revenue that goes into the archal fund uh because so the spaces in AR archal Park go into the archal fund that pays for public works and uh Recreation expenses of Staff but also the cleaning of the beach the cleaning of archal Park and those expenses associated with that um so you can the budget for the current year we had budgeted 3.9 million and the parking Fund 650,000 in archal but we're estimating that they will come in about 10 to 12% below that um we'll you know we still have uh May through September and usually June July tend to be well July tends to be one of the higher months as well as May um and not because they have the extra day it's just because we do get get a lot more visitors during those two main holidays Memorial Day and 4th of July and those weekends around there so if if I may it sounds we can we would come back um would you like a a future discussion on this later in the year our our plan was to um we wouldn't put this in the fee and collection manual process so it has to be an ordinance which would require two readings um but we were looking at bringing again as I said for fiscal year 25 budget this would take effect October 1 um and bring the item back um for a first reading um in July um I think at the I'm sorry at the August meeting second reading at the September meeting and then take effect on October 1 with next budget year unless you want us to bring it back for another discussion or have a public meeting I don't I don't know I mean again this is more of an impact for our visitors than for our residents I know that there are U we also part of the enforcement is we did begin be we began enforcing in neighborhoods related to what commissioner tagini stated because there were issues in neighborhoods where we had beachgoers parking there combined with the ability of our Fleet particularly our sanitation to navigate through certain streets so we restricted parking in the neighborhoods along Palm along the boaa along 140th and and those areas uh to keep beachgoers from parking there so we made that resident permit parking only um as and so we're enforcing that and if we find Vehicles parking there that are not residents then they receive a violation we have had a few residents that were ticketed um be I think because they had been parking in place places where they had been for a very long time such as golf carts going and parking at archal on the sidewalk um or parking in the Shell uh and we we gave warnings initially U from what was communicated to me and then violations but the the 90 I I mean I Jamal could probably better explain but definitely well over 95 96 97% of the violations are visitors um and the others U for we had a lot of construction in some small streets and that has led to issues I had a very IR rate resident on 129th earlier today um and so we sent enforcement I don't think we wrote citations we explained to them how to handle um and then we we did write one to another very high rate gentleman here on Madera way um but that was after many times that we had informed them that you cannot park on the sidewalk that was me right away uh there were a few not oh god um so that just to to add some more information to that but we would bring that back um again for first reading and second reading unless you would like further discussion at another Workshop we can just in in in an effort to because I think you're looking for guidance for what where which way to go uh what I Mr one of the things I love about this board is we can have civil discourse and we can evolve we can change absolutely I I I you know I'm I'm saying I'm thinking I would I would increase I would approve up to four but but no more at this point at this point based on the the parking garage increased Revenue but I would like to take a look sometime at uh finding parking charging for parking which is currently free if if we just to help in increase even more our Revenue so that's if that gives you any guidance yes and we absolutely and uh free parking we do currently have some um and it's First Street just back here on 153rd and First Street probably about 20 vehicles um and so when archal Park fills up people will park here we have only charged there for special events um so that's an opportunity we will look obviously Citywide but I can tell you that that's clearly one um there's even some spaces on Second Street um that have been free U madir ways kind of we don't encour we have signs no beach goers parking there um but we that has been free forever just like to have that discussion well 133rd has it's a big wide Road people park there for free uh we could you know just consider that and with the and with the park mobile style it's very easy to to Monitor and for them to pay so and maybe it's a seasonal thing maybe from uh November to April it's I don't know just saying options for increasing Revenue but I would I would go as high as four okay last thing before we get off the parking subject um is it City policy that you have to pull straight in not back in any paid parking spot within the city your license plate must be visible at all times so if you're parking if you're backing into a space and you're backing into a point where you cannot read the part my officer cannot read your your uh driver's or your vehicle PL vehicle plate then then um put signage so a we have mitigated by putting up signage where it's been problematic but again okay I I only bring it up because uh a resident brought it to my attention today and was asking that about the the Caddy's parking area that that they've just seen a lot of backing in which I personally don't have an issue with it a little safer it's it is it is safer but you can't enforce your parking so I understand right right a lot of maybe two three years ago a lot of well quite a substantial amount of Revenue was due to or citations were due to people backing in so basically if it's an out of state vehicle and they back in and they have their their tag on the front of their car makes you you don't have an issue with that no as long as you can see the tag okay then the other the other safety issue have is the pi pickup trucks with a Florida plate that would back in with the trailer hitch by the time you back in and the rear tires touch the bumper that hitch is in the walkway take out somebody Shin caus a little bit of grief there so maybe we should have a global policy on that that it's head and only I I don't know especially at kitty Stewart before yeah basically I've seen a lot of backend vehicles um impeding in the walkway yes safy first I can put up no backing and signs that's probably it's probably beneficial yes sir please come up all right to address Kitty Stewart if you don't back in you can get run over because if you're taking stuff out of your trunk the people that are coming in that parking lot are not coming in at 2 miles an hour they're coming across a double line you're standing there with your wife on you know taking chairs umbrellas whatever it's a dangerous situation so the kitty Steward should be because you don't have the room I understand it's it's U that's the first thing the second thing is with the parking going to $4 I mean the ey on the not Take Your Eye Off the subject is like Robin says you got to get this parking garage because that's going to increase Revenue but besides that it increases the volume of people that are going to shop in all those stores okay which you don't because I watch it all the time because I go fishing in John's Pass the people that park across the street in the old left Rock parking lot if you're from out of town you don't go into John's Pass to even look for a parking spot especially Thursday Friday or Saturday night you go across the bridge there's plenty of parking there's like 250 cars over there you walk across the bridge and you're not getting that revenue and that revenue is higher than $4 so and then you take the pirates that are of the private parking lots they're way above five and $6 Cades is way above so to raise it to $4 doll is like you say No One's Gonna another dollar is not going to change anything they're not going to bat an eye over it the eye keep your eye on the subject it's the parking garage we need the parking garage the parking garage is five years that should have been done five years ago so all right thank you so much all right Commissioners anything else on that we can move along all right I see somebody's ready to jump up here we have RFP 20241 the HR classification and compensation plans study mayor and commission sorry uh we had discussed this at the last Workshop uh we have invited and he graciously accepted uh Mr Jerry kril with the Civil Service Commission uh to give you a presentation and provide information and regarding the city's RFP process to have a study conducted of our human resources classification and compensation plans so Mr kantrell PowerPoint um it's not preloaded I don't know I've got it on here one from yesterday is not going to because I had to go in and modify some stuff on it so how do I connect let me connect yeah I did email it so I don't know the correct way um nope okay all right um so uh you guys on the last one brought up some really valid questions about why were we requesting to have the compensation classification study performed um we actually spent time in a meeting actually to talk about that what was your concerns that you had addressed get those written down and come up with some responses to it um and through that uh let's see so where we start at was here all right why are we coming up with this and I'm just going to start right where it says inside of the charter it's because we're currently working on the Personnel policy and procedures um and what we're going to present to you guys for you guys to eventually uh do the approval on part of it is actually written in there to look at classification and the compensation and as we're doing that we go back and we look what the last study was we look at the last study and we're like okay well we need to look at the the job descriptions look at job descriptions we look at the classifications and all these things tie together and we see a few problems and that's what this all address all right so I highlighted a few things there we're supposed to prepare the rules you guys look at it um we present it to you you guys by ordinance either adopt it change it whatever has to happen Okay um the things that we have to do in there and I read it verbatim the class uh the classification B classifi City positions based upon duties Authority and responsibility of each position with adequate Provisions for classification of any position whenever warranted by circumstances and second is a play pan for a pay plan for all Classified City positions all right the last uh let's see it was a just a Compensation Plan that was done it was compensation study that was in 2019 it was done by public sector Personnel Consultants one of the things that was asked which coast is gearing group on so where were they located all right Garing group is the one we're asking I've done so I went and I actually looked this up and I'm trying to figure out well where is this company at this company is literally a West Coast company they're do something in Connecticut I don't look to figure out what it was and there's three business well three public uh entities that they deal with in Florida one's a city of clear water the other two are Aviation uh uh entities I don't think we're going to match a lot in aviation other than we might have San ation I don't know what else there would be there um and this is going to address you some of the key takeaways from that FY 2019 plan and why we're asking to do this again all right so when I get to there um with the summary which hopefully you guys did get a copy of that didn't did you get electronic link or the PDF itself it's 47 page document and I'm looking right at specific pages and all I'm doing is highlighting specific things on there so the city at the time that this was done had approximately 51 positions all right um they they uh were asked to go in and just do a PL plan pay plan and it specifically stated there on the second page that they were not contracted to do classifications um and that meant that they weren't able to do a full study all right so when they brought this back they talked about it they said the city's current solid ranges were competitive for about 43% of The Benchmark sample all right they're competitive for that I'm going to differ with this and I'll show you why all right um and 57% were not competitive all right they were up to 40 C below 40% below market value and in 2019 there was a specific pay plan 2020 we had covid 2021 salaries did not increase 20122 2023 they did increase and I believe it was a cost of living adjustment for 2024 I don't know if there was Major increases outside of some other things that you guys have done all right um you go to page three the next page of 47 all right um the steps they use they said without conducting a full classification this is their verbage verbatim without conducting a full classification study the information on the following pages are loose recommendations you're on the third page you have 44 more to go and there's nothing that's really based on sound evidence it's just hey we did this comparison of 30 of your 51 positions all right and that's what I've got up here where I if you look at the kind of tan color the 17 and the six that's 23 all right those two percentages on the side are 77% there were only seven of the 30 positions that they evaluated that were that were comparable to the market at the time all right everything else was either 20 well those 20 were above or the 17 were below I think it was five of those jobs were specifically addressed in the following year and nothing happened beyond that because because of Co all right so at the time that they did this as well so what I see I got that there they said Loosely fit into it I'm saying it's 77% because if you look at what's above and below you're not within the market range at that point all right it's only those seven in the middle only 30 of the 51 positions that were there originally were analyzed one of those was actually the chief of the fire department nobody else in the fire department was included in the study not a single bit of it all right so those weren't and you guys have recently had to actually go back because you realized after losing a person maybe it was for promotion or something else and it was good for that person that you're having a hard time keeping and keeping the fire department so outside of the the collective bargaining agreement you agreed to go ahead and raise their pay above starting the next Collective baring agreement which I think is on the agenda for tonight which means they going to get another pay raise on top of that all right so there are definitive problems with this study and the thing is it didn't cover what needed to be covered it got this is what it looks like you should be doing it wasn't this is really where you need to be at um 22 of the positions that we currently have uh uh from the 2019 study that are currently and this is not including the fire department all right are I can't find a direct correlation to the job descriptions they had I mean we have a GIS technician right now you have a media person those were not incl included in that to start out with um then if and I also put that know the fire department we did have a discussion though and we believe that the executive assistant might have been included in that for the fire department but we're really not certain because based on the wording of that that study it says nothing but the fire chief was included in the study um the things that we can get by doing this is gearing group will provide us with a comprehensive analysis of job descriptions which will be classified in comparison with Federal standardized occupational codes there's a hyperlink there if you want to go look at it it's really not great reading it'll put you to sleep in about 5 seconds but it's how the federal government classified jobs it's hard to fit every orange into an apple basket and so there's going to be some variations there and gearing group has a really good uh uh ability to match these things and correlate them better so we get better understandings um we're expecting that they're going to provide tools that will Pro to make it so HR and and uh Mr Gomez can go back year after year and make this a lot easier all right so it's it doesn't have to be repeated on a consistent basis I went the wrong way sorry guys um and uh let's see what else I write there Garen group will assists the Civil Service Commission with a compensation and classification study that sets a relevant current standard for job descriptions to include establishing C classifications that correctly matched uh the market all right the when we look at the is the cost of what is it for not doing this study that's what it boils down to and then I'll talk about the 27,600 and the extra 10,000 and why that's there and maybe an extra 10,000 that might need to be on that all right we don't know if that needs to happen we're not going to ask for anything additional um one of the things you're having problems with in the city is attracting and retaining quality employees it's because the pay they can go somewhere else and get a better pay or they get a better benefit all right the cost right now we have a def a cost of dealing with staff turnover because every time you hire somebody new you actually have to go out and pay for to get all their background stuff done whether it's fingerprinting or whatever the case is so there's actually there's a certain cost that goes along with it we need to be competitive to fill the vacant positions if you look at what's happened over the last two years in madir Beach they haven't been fully staffed because the salaries have been below the market that's a big one all right and that still could be a problem if we look start to look at what other other areas is going to be doing because we're not the only ones that are asking to do this other other cities and localities are asking for the same thing um there was a discussion that we had inside of the um commission all right and let me start with the 27,600 all right this study by the way was 15,000 all right I don't know how it would have bought be improved I couldn't figure that out that study which oh the one back in 2019 was 15,000 I don't know how I don't know if I had to go through R FP process I don't know how it was decided on I don't know who chose it I can't figure that out yet there just wasn't enough time to look through all the data to figure it out um but if you look at the 15 and all they did was a pay compar that to 27 28 let's call it 28 right now we're asking for a pay and a classification the classifications that they had on this study showed about 40 different job classes for 51 different positions all right currently the way the the the classifications are set up from madira Beach that we're using today there are seven there are seven they don't match those 40 the job descriptions we have no idea where they're going to fit into that the classifications don't match the job descriptions don't match we can't we can't make complete sense of it based upon what that study provided and this study even said if you don't do the classification you're not going to get the right information that's why we're asking for classification and compens the additional $10,000 which I think it was you if I don't remember correct it was you the the addition additional $10,000 is there is to review the job descriptions to make sure that we're consistent based upon those S so s so things if you look at the job descriptions because we we asked to do that as we're going through this the they're good I don't I don't want to say we have we have good job descriptions but you can tell they were probably written by about eight or 20 different people over time and there's no consistency in the format that they use for them so it's really hard to go and say okay I'm going to talk to the town right next door to us and this is what our job description is for this it's not going to match up so if you're trying to do a classification and figure out your pay ranges are the same you get a fuzzy feeling that you might be there but you're really not certain you're right in the right spot so it's fixing some some stuff that needs to be fixed doing an analysis needs to be done and then the other thing was brought up what's it going to cost us we have to do this again how soon do we need to do it if we have this we shouldn't need to do it anytime in the relative future I not within five years but there's a provision written inside of this and I believe please correct me if I'm wrong on this Mr Gomez we can write it in the contract that if we need to go back they can't charge us but something like $10,000 to do another evaluation so as long as things remain the same and we're not changing everything that $10,000 if we had to do it is all you're paying you're not going to pay another $38,000 so we're we're trying to look through all of it even if I go back and I look at the eight different companies were reviewed this by no means is the highest we didn't want to go with the highest because they were actually not one of the better choices and it's not the cheapest either it was I would say it's probably closer to the mid-range is that correct it was closer to mid-range we we looked at the price without a doubt but we were looking at what are we getting I mean I personally called all eight of those companies their their people that they said that they actually had business with I found businesses that said they never did anything with them I brought that back to the commission and said we can't use this company because if they're going to tell us stuff that's false up front why why on Earth would we even consider them so those are things all right the so I'm trying to give you as much as I can I could go on all day long I need to know what questions you have so I know what I got to address you started off saying that it's in the city Charter that we have to do this but how often we need or in it there's no requirement on how often the problem is is in 2019 after 2019 we had Co the pay raises didn't occur this even if you go back and look at it bring it up this way um one of the jobs all right I could talk two specific types of jobs uh one of the jobs uh was $9 an hour and they said that if you work for the city for seven to 10 years which would put that between 2026 and 2020 2026 2029 they wouldn't even be making $15 an hour in that range if you even gave them a 6% pay raise per year at $9 an hour over the last four years they're not going to be at $15 an hour right now it's not and and we're not going to I I may be wrong in saying this this is me saying it I think we're going to have a hard time finding anybody to work for less than $15 an hour right now if you go back and you look um there was a specific job class inside of the 2019 classification that was called uh divisional supervisor there were three different supervisors that were included inside of that but the one that's bringing in 4 point whatever million dollars a year was a lower pay scale all right the our supervisor for parking was actually put at a lower pay scale and he's bringing Revenue in he's doing a real job now I can tell you that I from what I understand right now all of those are in the same classification but that study would have had him getting $15 an hour right now I mean it's it it's it's not it's not helping us the 2019 study is not helping us I've reviewed the 2019 study because it was sent out to all of us I wasn't impressed it you know I went I came to the meeting tonight thinking there's this I don't want to spend $30,000 on this because I'm not getting anything out of it a question to the city would have been what changes were made after the study was done in 2019 I don't know that anyone's here that can address that I remember when they did the study in 2019 it was done for entirely different reasons than what the Civil commission is wanting to do this study were any changes made but with the results were there were changes made to salaries there were but the goal was not it had nothing to do with it it had nothing to do with employees it had to do with people thought that there were people making too much money and it was it was not a um Pro City thing to do this um I've been following their meetings and talking with Robin about some of the things that we will get out of this study the Civil Service Commission has been working on the employee handbook over a year longer than that yeah well years longer than that yes longer than that for years like for three or four years the Civil Service Commission has been kicking the camp down the road and one of the key things that they really need is the classification of the jobs and somebody third party to put out what it should be professionally not my opinion Robin's opinion some you know everybody on the Civil Service giving a an opinion but a professional opinion that will help us move this forward finish the employee handbook so that the employees that work for the city can have a handbook so that we can move forward a lot of hard work's been put into it and I think getting this study although it's a lot of money it's very much needed it won't be repeated in five years I it won't because if if if it's laying the groundwork it's laying the groundwork and it it gives the footprint for our human resources staff to follow through and have something to be competitive with the current market it allows it will allow human resources to to raise a scale if they need to as well as to lower it when it needs to be lowered it's we can't do it with what we have right now but it also determines who should be salary who should be hourly there I mean it's it determines a lot of things that the city really needs as a tool and the only way it's going to get into the handbook is to have the study done and I think once you have the study won't the commission be I mean aren't you close to finishing the handbook once you obtain this information we have gone through and we've done yes we are very close within the coming months you you will have this Personnel policy to review it's uh we've gone through and you're right it has taken more than three years yeah it started before you were even on before I was in there and and it was completely revamped after I got in there so it's we but I know that we spent a year on the current version we're working on and attorney ashenfelder from from TR business uh his associate huge huge amount of work done by him to get us to where we're at and there's been a lot of back and forth I mean we we've had some fairly decent discussions about really what needs to be in there I mean one of the things we're not asking for which was inside of this package is to do a compensation evaluation it makes no sense at all right now it would be fiscally responsible to ask to have that done because in the Personnel policy which hopefully you guys will accept it and if you want to modify it's going to happen but we're asking for some things to change in there so if we did ask you to do the compensation yeah not the compens yeah the benefits the benefits I'm sorry the benefits analysis we'd ask you to do it on what is right now and then we're going to ask you in two to three months to change it and then why would we do that it just doesn't make any sense um as a basis right now I know that what's happened is is uh U Human Resources is contacting the local communities about what benefits are they providing what's the cost to the city for those and trying to come up with a base level idea of are we really in the right park are we giving away are we giving away our shirts are we not giving enough away you know that's but just to be clear you're not asking for that that would be another 10,000 that would be another 10,000 makes absolutely no sense to spend it commissioner Brooks we you done okay so was are are you bringing us the consensus of the Civil Service Commission yes we had a meeting specifically to discuss this and I'm representing the Civil Service Commission in this discussion right now thank you to you personally and to the entire commission for working tirelessly on this for the time that I've observed them and uh I'm strongly in favor of this we have a nearly $50 million a year budget uh I think we need to have uh some validation for our employee for our employee structure and of course salaries I I don't see salaries as the most important part of this I see the structuring uh as uh critical for what we're doing thank you any other questions is there any public comment on this Jerry okay I do have another question so do have you seen a sample of a deliverable of what and you've reviewed that the commission is when when I called to the local community no not actually not all of them were local when I called around and asked for results of what people have received I received some of their documentation back and Garing group gave us a a representative copy of what it's going to look like it very much so follows the format of what they're going to give us um it's G to it will it will break down the classification of the jobs it is going to take I think 12 weeks is that correct yes it is going to take 12 weeks there there we will they will request employee interviews um they're going to go out and it's not just going to be five beaches they're going to look at they're going to look at the pelis area and try to figure out what are we compared to because we're not competing just with Readington over here or St Pete Beach down there we're competing with Tampa because it's only a 30- minute drive if you're looking at if you're looking at where gandy's at so we have to we have to make sure that we're looking at what's going on rather than just what are three to five beaches doing great yeah so uh Jerry real quick uh the total cost again was 37,000 I think it's 37640 is that correct that's correct that's correct 37640 and that's for the 12we study correct it is correct yes and that covers that'll look at it'll look at job descriptions classification and compens ation okay and currently have anyone had any feedback from any of the residents on this at all 37,000 to spend right before hurricane season doesn't seem like a lot but to some of the residents I've talked to it it does so um that's something that we can talk about obviously can I can I tell you a number yeah $ 37,6 40 of a $50 million budget is 0.75% we're talking less than one tenth of a percent okay and I'm not it's not cheap I'm not I I don't want to downplay it $37,000 is not cheap had to write a check for that we would we would look at it right but you're looking at a city and you're looking at what you can provide to the employees you have right now and to the Future employees and retaining them that is going to provide more value than that 37,000 you spend is going to going to cost you all right thank you m Mr Gomez don't we have a budget for a survey of this well we had in discussions uh through the Civil Service Commission meetings in the last year my estimate was for $50,000 to have a study done so we won't have to borrow from any other funds to get this done we have it budgeted yes have a savings all right anything else thank you very much thank you guys thank thank you Jer for all your hard work hey I love it it's worth it well next up are the impact [Music] fees however would it be most prudent to you do the John's P Activity Center first or no um I would say do the impact fees Jerry could Jerry could head out okay so next up are the impact fees residential so mayor yeah mayor and commissioner I think this request came from um the board and really I think from commission to address I can get us started I think it was um June of last year that was the last time we saw your smiling face Mr Murphy and then uh the reason I wanted this on the agenda is because I wanted an update on where we were I believe without going back to that meeting um we adjourn you were going to go back and find out what it would take to redo whatever we needed to do to get the residential off of the impact fees um as we discussed back then when I was on the Planning Commission we discussed whether residential had to be included and I was told multiple times that it had to be but then we came to the conclusion that it didn't have to be and I'm just opposed personally I don't know if I can't speak for the board that the residential impact fees are a a burden that just doesn't need to be there I don't think they're fair if the city needs funding because of residential impact fees we need to look at other sources because it's not fair to point out an a we want to encourage rebuilding of homes we don't want to discourage it and impact fees are contrary to where I think we want to go for residential com commercial I'm 100% so I'm in in agreeance and I I worked through all that with many meetings with you um but I didn't know if you had any updates for us if You' talked to anyone and where we needed to go to um move residential impact fees you know invalidate them I'll like to speak well thank you Mr Kerr um commissioner the way that your comprehensive plan is established you have to have both commercial and residential because your level of service is based on that requirement so you would be you would need to go back and amend your comprehensive plan you would need to make a finding that residential increases have no impact on the community I don't know that I could support that finding but there may be some way to do that um you could look at some other options um one of the examples is the way that the county levies their transportation impact fee and they do it as a graduate square footage instead of every square foot counting they have a range that goes I think from Z to 1500 1501 to 2999 something like that that would be an option too um but entirely moving residential off of the impact fee ordinance would require a change to the comprehensive plan and and a finding that residential growth has no impact on the city's facilities again I would argue that the city of madiri beach has is built out has been built out we're not talking about growth if we're talking about growth adding developments to uh the city limits which would be a burden on schools and and utilities and everything else I don't have an issue with that that's not where we are with this city we're talking about rebuilding a home to mitigate your home a hurricane comes through your home floods you're mandated to rebuild your home and it costs more than 50% of the structure then you have to hit FEMA guidelines you have to rebuild your home and and raise it to not increase the uh air conditioned square footage would be unreasonable you're going to put a million dollars in to raise this home I think that is crazy to have to add thousands of dollars for an impact fee um and you have an impact at the neighborhood you have an impact at the city at all I have spoken secondhand with people that are in that uh predicament right now they have't flooded for 20 years but over the last three years they flooded twice they're rebuilding their home they're lifting their home they're adding square footage to it and they're getting 15 $35,000 impact fees Jenny you be able to speak to this is that does that sound reasonable yeah and they're definitely going up the impact view so we are seeing yeah and and we're just at the beginning those you bring up a great point we're at the beginning over time these impact fees are going to get Higher and Higher and it's just not reasonable if we have to change our comprehensive plan well then is that something you need to be involved with or is it something we do internally we just need to do it this is not fair it's something that I could be involved in if if that's the will of the board um what you're seeing happening in coastal Barrier Islands which were generally developed with Cottages many of them were Barracks that were transferred after the war and those small Cottages are going down and much larger buildings are going up one of the impacts that that has is that many of those new buildings are going into legal or illegal short-term rentals and they occupy larger buildings can hold more people more people have more impacts that may not be a case if you are a year round resident and you're just looking for more space um but the trend has been for commercialization of Residential Properties on the barrier islands and you and you've made that argument prior I understand city of madira beach we've established uh rental um restrictions prior to 2011 we've not been impacted by any state mandates changes we're we're pretty well protected um I'm talking back in areas that are six-month rental minimum you can have one rental every six months there's no way that that changing square footage of that home because they they raised it and invested 800,000 a millionar to raise it's over it's six figures before you put up the First wall because you have to put the pilings in and and everything that goes along with it uh to add tens of thousands of dollars of impact fee reasonable person's not going to do it they're either going to suffer with what they have if they have to do if they're mandated to do it um they they will how many how many residents are selling their home I I just I it's a money grab it is in my opinion there's there's other ways to collect money to run the services that the city provides it shouldn't be a oneoff on each individual property as it's rebuilt so if we need to have the comprehensive plan changed that in my opinion that's what we need to do again I'm I'm one one voice on the board um just to be clear if you elevate the home to comply with fud regulations and the size of the home doesn't change there's no additional impact fee it's only when the home gets bigger just like a business gets bigger that the impact fee comes into play as you as you're currently situated right people have their laundry uh in their garage when you lift your home you're not going to do that they have um nobody's the the value of the lot itself no one's going to build a small Rancher a 2,000 foot Rancher if they're going to raise it maybe even the same footprint they would typically have two stories over parking so if you came the same footprint you're automatically doubling the space that doesn't mean you have more bedrooms or bathrooms it just means maybe they're a little larger um there there's many different designs you can do that's going to add square footage to make make your life nicer if you if you're going to do it but you're not again you're still a single family in that home um and we we've debated this prior so you know where my belief is but I don't I don't think that residential again everything I do here I try to think of how this impacts the resident and I this is a negative impact to the to the residents in my opinion my hum and I think it's great ask a question C so if we change the comprehensive plan you mean the madir Beach Comprehensive plan and why who would require us to show that there was no impact no Financial impact on the city if you're going to continue to have an impact fee it has to comply with the state statute and so the state so the state is saying that if we do it to businesses we have to do it to Residents I think the state's saying that it needs to be equitably applied and so what we would have to do in a study which has to be done to underpin the impact fee would be to show that increased size of residential units has no additional impact on the city so it's a but it's a blanket statement is it possible that that if we change comprehensive plan could we have gradations where uh if you increased it just because you had to raise it up and just add it I don't know or did it had does it have to be cut and dry residential more square footage impact fee and and the way yours is based it's based on the to put it sort of clearly the Property Appraiser's designation of air conditioned space so a g a garage that's not air conditioned that doesn't count carport things like that so if you raise your home first floors is a garage the footprint stays the same on the second and third floor there are no impact fees as long as that footprint stays the same yes sir okay so they have to make that conscious decision do I want to make the home bigger or not and get whacked with the impact fees or keep it the same okay thank you and another basis for the impact fees and I encourage you to get the report because the order is based on the report and it references the report but it doesn't have all of the information the data that's in the report your fees are based on the value of all the facilities and services that you provide for Mobility for culture and recreation which is your biggest aspect you guys have a lot of amenities in the city of madira Beach and on public safety and the public safety fee is the lowest um we had a meeting a month ago by zoom and kind of went over the amounts of fees and in the time that you've had impact fees you haven't generated enough fees to really do a full project no Department could find a full project that they could utilize them for and you don't have to spend them for seven years but you do have to spend them by seven years or at least the ones that were collected seven years ago so you haven't collected that great amount of impact fees now they can be used as portions of a project they can pay for a portion of the project if only you got $20,000 in Mobility fees you can pay $20,000 toward some sort of road or traffic Improvement um but they're basically all to to maintain that level of service of your commercial I'm sorry of your um recreational and mobility and Public Safety Services mayor you were asking if you raise your home that that would mean you could not have the same footprint of your garage because your garage is typically not air conditioned space but he's saying non air conditioned space doesn't affect the I'm just saying you would raise your footprint of your existing home if you have a Rancher and you raise that home well you would have to lose use that garage that would be underneath of the structure that doesn't um you know as far as your your footprint let's say you have a 2,000 foot home and a garage is another 500 square feet you could build a 2,000 foot home that footprint of the garage is is lost so you have a smaller footprint over top well the garage could stay on the ground because it's storage vehicle or access it would be underneath that's what I'm saying it would be your actual storage would be underneath of your new structure if you built the structure in the same footprint that you were initially had 2500 square feet you would be hit by the assessment of that 500q foot garage that all of a sudden now is air conditioned because when it's raised it's it doesn't have a car in it anymore you're using it for uh a den or a bedroom or just a larger room or your laundry or or might not raise the garage I understand but you're not going to leave an old garage with a new building well you can put more storage access and more cars underneath the new building but the old garage could stay on the ground where it is because it's not being I'm saying nobody's going to build a new home with an old garage on the that I'm I'm without that would yeah well that would be just that would be unreasonable I'll just put it that way it would no one's going to spend a million dollars or half a million dollars to to put a new home to hit the FEMA standards and I don't even know now that that garage would even be able to stay because it wouldn't have blowout walls uh you know you it wouldn't meet the the FEMA guidelines um it's not going to meet which is kind of an un unrelated uh place where we've gotten to yet but the whole elev TI elevation of uh the base floor elevation because now we're we've got a a lower elevation the whole goal was to uh raise uh the base floor elevation so we don't flood here on the city every as you can tell this is something that's I believe in strongly that um pay for the services of the city shouldn't be the responsibility of a few it should be e you know that's that's why we have um property taxes where every everyone pays a a share just because you raise your home doesn't you you haven't impacted anything I get it if you were renting it out and it was uh you know a lot more PE I don't even get that I'm I'm because if it's if it's there and you have um so many individuals in that place it should be more on bedrooms and bath you know how many people can you would would live in that I mean that might be a discussion but even then um the square footage I I think it's I think it's wrong well unlike taxes it's a one-time fee so once you've paid it you're done um I would say because I don't know how far we're going to get tonight um you have a provision in your impact fee ordinance that um calls for an annual review of the fee schedule and we could make that an annual review of the whole thing I mean that's at the direction of the board it's updated um and we can certainly take a look at that um it's just I know how you feel commissioner Kerr I just don't know what the the rest of the board feels like and you know what the direction might be floor is open I mean it sounds simple to me if you're going to stay within the same footprint and raise the house there's no impact fees where you get bit is if you change the square footage of the house and that's a conscious decision the homeowner and the contractor have to make are they willing to get socked by those fees or not and the fees are not unjustified you know you've got a 50-page report I think that that justifies why the fees are set the way they are I mean it's all based on the potential infrastructure correct and the improvements potentially needed there or the maintenance thereof not so much the maintenance but maintaining the level of service we're talking Fire EMS utilities the whole kitten and Kaboodle everything that the city provides okay the county has its own impact fee and that's basically just for mobility and it's substantial well I know I this is I'm sure this is impossible and it's going to show I uh naivity naive how naive I am uh I I would like to I appreciate uh the situation residents being charged an infect fee for something they have to do and rather than just build the exact same square footage if they're going to go up you know add some more I understand that uh the complication is many of these people are are using it for temporary housing for for rentals uh in a perfect world uh in order to not get the impact fee they'd have to be uh Homestead Exempted they could prove that they were they were going to provide homestead exemption um then let them add another floor without the impact Fleet but I I just wanted to that's just my perspective this is I'm not an expert on it like this like commissioner Kerr but in in theory I agree that it seems harsh but maybe if they could Pro provide a homestead exemption maybe that would exempt them from the impact fee and and that's something that we could look at I'm not certain about it I don't know if that's been done anywhere in the state so that might be something youi um you might want to think about in terms of direction if we move forward um what criteria might justify that because you can change your homestead pretty quickly um so a smart operator would Homestead get what they needed and and move on so is there Peri that you would want becomes incing on the city to enforce our own codes yes I I would I would be okay with that home but you would have you know like if you wanted to make it a fiveyear homestead um if that's okay if that's something you don't have to redo your whole comprehensive plan for um five year 10 year whatever that you can show that that uh this is your home you're not changing your family is your family if you're going to rebuild and you're going to stay there [Music] um I I just I'm I just think it's unjustified and unfair you know many people many neighbors that are on the water live in a Rancher and they're suffering with being flooded not only they have to concern themselves about increasing their property taxes if they rebuild and get out of the flood zone but now they also have this impact fee which can be tens or tens of thousands of dollars and the city hasn't changed at all as far as their transportation or uh the any of the services that are provided because of that family raising their home what triggers the impact fee cost is it square footage that's what drives that number yes sir okay yes because as was pointed out earlier you know madira Beach is basically built out horizontally but nowhere near the extents that you're allowed to go vertically and so the the the best way that was determined when we did the impact fee study before the best way to capture the amount of additional growth is to go by square footage I tend to agree with commissioner Kerr also as far as a punish it seems like it just punishes the long-term residents especially after you know the last three floods and then building up right and um obviously predominantly you're you're not going to have the same square footage you know and um U like you said you know building up with a with a brand new structure and leaving the old garage you know um I think that's something that uh definitely the long-term residents are not happy with I I think everybody's got an opinion on it I mean I understand your I understand what you're saying but when you think about somebody is going to build a home and you have a house and it's 12 00 sare fet or 2,000 was the number used 2,000 square foot with a 500q foot garage if you lift that whole house and turn the garage into a 500 foot porch you don't have impact fees and then you have a 2500 foot garage underneath your house so I mean I don't know I don't know I I remember when we did the study and it was exhaustive um I can understand a a doing an exception for a homestead but who's going to police that we're not The Keeper of the homestead that's the county but we're collecting the impact fees for the city so then you have that's a whole another level of something that somebody's got to be out there watching and making sure that someone is homesteaded um that would that would be that's easy records to look at that's pretty but somebody has to be the responsible person of that and then that's that's another Duty or job within the city to make sure that someone keeps their Homestead forever how many years that would be the permit department I mean it's all right there in your tax records whether you're Homestead it or not that's pretty easy oh I understand but that but no one's keeping a record of that right now no but when you when you put and in the State of Florida you don't even have to live here to be homesteaded all you have to have is a driver's license and you're homesteaded as long as you don't claim residency in any other state you are considered home sted in the State of Florida so um I mean anybody could take that take that Advantage so I don't know I understood why we did them I don't understand if the commission wants to get some exploratory stuff I would not oppose it if that's what you want to do I don't have an opposition I just don't I understand the impact fees you raise your home you have to get stairs to the second floor that's several hundred square feet but you only get you only get charged for every square foot of air conditioned space so if you have your if you design your home where you actually have stairs in air conditioned space that's a hit you have your laundry room that's a hit you want to have a um you want to have an office today it's very important if you're going to rebuild a home especially here you want to have a home office now how did that impact the city how did that family that that decides that he's working at home now he doesn't want to have his office in the dining room anymore he wants to have a separate office how does that impact any of the services or cost that this that from the city it's a money grab stct just it's simple it's a it's a money grab that's my opinion but we can't stop collecting on residential and continue collecting on commercial is not not at this point right okay any other comment you can do things but that's not the way the ordinance is drafted and so then comes the lawsuit and well and I I do think that what commissioner Kerr saying is um because I do remember back when all this was going on the question was can we just do commercial and not do Residential and we were told no that you had to do both so I I get what you're saying now a developer would come in and argue to you that the impact fees we collect from devel ERS is quite Hefty they would I mean so yes but that's a business um they price their product based on their cost it's different than an existing homeowner rebuilding to for flood and deciding to build his his dream home typically the you know the average age of people here in madira beach is 60 years old so you're talking about your dream your forever home um and not to build what you want because or to change the the finishes in your house because your budget doesn't allow allow the the nicer tile or the nicer kitchen because oh I have this $30,000 impact fee I have to pay if you just talk about 2,000 square feet so I've got a 25 just bear with me I got a 2500 foot house you don't have to do the math Jenny can tell you I just did it it's $199,400 to add an additional 2,000 square feet so I've got now I've got a 4,000 foot house and I paid 19,4 $0000 for impact fees to madir beach now I'm basing that off of the impact fee on the schedule for 2025 I mean if you're building a 4,000 square foot house $20,000 you I mean that's not making you change the finishes in your house that's a big house somebody building a 4,000 square foot house is not cheapen on anything they're they're not P pennies a th000 square foot is what is what's a th000 square foot but right now um if you look at page it's kind of split on two pages 71 and 72 of your packet so right now we're at $6.99 um cents per square foot of that extra square footage and then in October it bumps up to $8.39 per square foot and I use the $970 per square foot they'll really depend on what you're building what we're seeing typically when people demolish their homes and raise up they're going larger where they are yeah I mean you have a ranch home I Mak sense you know you're putting all this money into it to increase the square footage so a lot of times we see double um the square footage it's definitely increase um that's typically what we see yeah I just think it's wrong fundamentally if it's you know if it it's a flat 10 grand still it's it's it's 10 it's 10 grand they shouldn't have to spend excuse me Mr Mayor I apologize my colleagues I uh I have to go okay so I had I had some issues this morning and you're feeling poorly yeah understand I apologize there's some important stuff coming on I apologize do you need a ride home or are you okay he's coming back okay thank you oh no one down feel better I I've expressed my opinion enough so everybody knows how I feel so need to give Jerry some guidance all right next well anything to bring back um yeah if the board doesn't want to if they want to move forward if they agree with me then yeah there's lots of things we could talk about bringing back so basically it's going to come down to how everyone feels um I mean to me it sounds like if you do not change the square footage and you just Elevate there are no impact fees if you want to build a bigger house there's there's going to be Associated fees I see vice mayor Brooks she brought up the valid point about the homestead inability to track that you can do it from out of state the whole nine yards so I don't see where that would work so I just go back to the justification of the of the charges it's just tens of thousands of dollars that it can how about reduced rates for somebody over a certain age then could you do could that be done no okay it's not about the individual I understand it's about the building I understand so Jerry if we did something like the county does where they have um a scale it's like what Jerry was saying earlier it's like0 to 1500 square feet then you have a one cost and then it goes up and then commercial has a different cost we did something like that would that be an extensive study or what would that look like we'd have to justify it yeah we'd have to go back and do another study and okay in in doing that we could look at a homestead exemption though I'm not confident um we could look at again the Law changes the state law changes from time to time it's kind of like short-term rentals they take a jab at it every time they sit down and they're trying to get more commercial into residential I don't know why but there's somebody who wants that am I not on I'm not sure I'm sorry um we we can do that we can do another study if that's your point it's been three years now I think the ordinance was adopted in 2020 and went into effect in 2021 yeah that looks right so it's it's been a while you can certainly take a look at it again in um I just I'm sort of without Direction at this point what would the cost of the set study B to the city off the top of my head I have no idea so let me just clarify there would be a cost Associated yes with doing a study to change this impact fee ordinance I I think there would yes okay do we want to request or proposal that I mean I thought that's where we were a yearo it wouldn't cost anything to request one right we let's how about I'll get with Community Development will and Tom and see what you know what proposal what could be changed and see how much a study would be and bring that back to you I think that's most appropriate starting point yeah I think the whole reason we started down this path was um in 2017 2018 someone actually was asking the question you know with all the new development we're we're getting in in uh madira Beach um how's this how's this uh benefiting the residents because the and talking about the commercial the condos and the hotels and whatnot you know this the um residents were picking up the the cost the overall cost for the The increased traffic the um the services the city provides but it wasn't directed to residential improvements and I think that we've lost our way that's just my opinion let's see what the sentiment manager can bring back to us in regards to a potential study on this okay than for coming out Jerry thank you folks yes uh question for the for the Commissioners do we want to jockey anything around to try to get some of the city employees out quicker um all right can we do the concession stand let's go backwards let's do concession stand golf ground Golf Boulevard undergrounding and the local and then no if we could if we could do the noise ordinance okay all as long as everybody's okay yeah the the deputies don't work directly for me but the staff do so but I know what I'm just kidding okay you say it but they carry guns and that's all that matters so the right so the mayor if we can proceed then okay to the noise ordinance discussion okay uh do we have any public comment on this I believe we do please come up noise sure sorry thank you for hanging around Tom Edwards district one Commissioners you certainly are earning your pay today it's been a long day thank you so I I brought this up at the commission meeting concerning the noise ordinance and I think you heard some citizen comments when we were talking about caddies with noise and I think that whole issue needs to be Revisited and what brought it up for me was the uh madira Cantina last year I had mentioned had Cinco Deo they had a big band out there they had huge speakers out there they didn't have a permit and they were just blowing music and and finally the deputies got over there after several calls and and made them stop and then this year um they got a waiver got a permit to go ahead and exceed the sound limit and the problem with that is is that um once you have the permit you can play the music as loud as you want there's no decel limit that they have to abide by um you adopted the County ordinance several years back as as your main ordinance and um it used to be that if you were within 100 feet I'm sorry more than 100 feet away from the noise and you were being disturbed in your residence you could call the deputy and they could take some action against that um now we don't have that especially when you get a waiver now the when they when you the commission not you all the previous ones we're going to adopt the County ordinance happy prices we're going to get our own noise meter we're have people train we always have someone here that can handle noise that's not true when I've called the deputies before we've got someone on duty we can get them here a year ago it was well they're up in Largo we we can get them here but you know it it'll take some time and so with waivers the County ordinance talks about the city manager Town manager um can grant a permit has to be in writing and can be applied under certain following conditions the city manager May prescribe any reasonable conditions or requirements they deem necessary to minimize adverse effects upon the community or the surrounding neighborhood my wife suffers with health condition with constant migrain headaches she she's had it for years there's a couple years it goes away and then it's come back again a year ago she had the flu she's got migrain headache and we get this thumping music planing for 11 12 hours last year and I had asked J hatch please don't Grant a permit for this coming year and pass it on city manager that didn't happen they got a waiver and so for 11 hours from 10: in the morning till 9: at night they were pumping this music out and they've got a band with drums and Amplified music they could have just as easily had a couple of guitars and a singer to go ahead and do this they're calling it Cinco Deo I can tell you that 99% of the people have no idea what CLE Deo is except they want to eat some Mexican food and drink a lot of alcoholic beverages some people even think that you know it celebrates Mexican Independence it doesn't so the County ordinance provides that if an applicant applies for a waiver and it's denied they have the right to appeal so they can come to the city Commission you can listen through their arguments and you can grant the permit but there's no provision for the citizen to go ahead and object to the permit and so that's what I'm suggesting is you also might consider that is that there be some way now City of St Petersburg has that in their noise ordinance you might want to take a look at that so in their waivers it says that the applicant at its own expense shall notify all occupants of the property that will be directly affected by the issuance waiver by mail or hand delivery and depending upon if it's a residential or commercial area has to be all the residance within 500 to 1,000 ft the applicant has to fill out the information and what they plan on doing and there should be some way of minimizing this sound but what I'm asking is the citizens should go ahead and be able to go ahead and say we object to this let's go ahead and have a hearing we object to this because there's no requirements to go ahead and try and minimize a sound are they having a sound engineer on saying with noise meter are they have an acoustical engineer is there a way of putting up some barriers to go ahead minimize when you have this type of entertainment at a restaurant like this the music is booming off hitting the condo next to it there's two condos on either side and it's reflecting the sound and so Mr Edward can you summarize what another man is so when does a Citizens where we can have peace and quiet in our residents get trumped by a commercial establishment to go ahead and have loud music for commercial purposes and we've heard the same thing with the residents that were here with Cades so I think that the Sound Ordinance needs to be looked at uh and you might need to put some better language well language in there and for the decibels I asked that a deputy that was familiar with the noise ordinance and how they apply it to come here and speak to that so we could find out how they do that how long do they have to test how long does noise have to be above a certain time are they checking for the temperature and the wind speed all that is reflective as to how the noise is affecting the neighborhood okay thank you all right thank you is there any other public comment on noise all right all right um so we received Direction at our last Bo meeting when we were talking about accessory structures of the potential um or extra noise with accessory structures in commercial areas so we were asked to bring this to the workshop um and then we also received um some some complaints about noise generation generating during special events um so also looking that to that as well um so in your packet tonight you have the madira beach um noise ordinance or the section in the code and then we also included the pelis county uh noise code we also have the deputies here to discuss how they um how they go about um with the decb and um measuring the decb with with noise um and noise complaints as well one one suggestion on more of the commercial mechanical units uh one option could be and I would have to talk to Tom as well if this is the best place to put it but possibly in section 34- 87 uh which is on page 179 of your packet um having including um another subsection about commercial machineries and including some noise dampering methods such as in acoustic enclosures with sound absorbing materials so that might be a good place to include that but I would also have to refer to Mr tras about that if you're waiting for me to respond I think the answer is is yes that would be a good location to put it oh okay okay I'm sorry sorry we didn't talk about it before that's okay I mean I'll speak on this a little bit the one issue that the neighborhood has been having is we're kicking the can down the road going on well over two years now and we have no resolution to the issue that it it's the mechanical sounds coming from the Machinery that for our current code is illegal anyway but it is what it is if they need it but I mean if you look on page 189 and this is a direct result of expansion it reads when expansive operation not permitted this act shall not be construed to permit an existing commercial recreational fishing operation to change to a larger operation with regard to emitting more noise or odor for such change violates local ordinances regulations or creates a nuisance and this is a direct result of an expansion so I'm we're just am asking for help here it's been over two years and I noticed in your impact study there's nothing in there about impacting the residents it's all about the commercial entity so I I I think we just need to do some I appreciate everything that everybody's been doing but you know we've been kicking this can down the road for over two years and it's got to stop somehow put them out of business absolutely not but and that's been a the accusation been made there but come into compliance with the laws and ordinances I mean we have structures that are not tied down scenario we get a big storm knocks these buildings off they're sitting on the ground they come over and take down a couple houses who's responsible City Mad Beach we don't want that either do we lot of the mechanical um accessory structures that we're talking about yeah uh currently don't meet our accessory structure code so what would happen in this case is um they're needed for the business absolutely you know that um so once the new assess structure code is adopted then they can officially we can actually go out and permit it and at that time then we could ask for or require if it's in our code for those buffering or S sound dampering um equipment or you know something around that equipment I mean would you consider hours of operation when there's nobody there the Machinery has to be shut off could also be in there you can see in um in that section in that 3487 it also includes hours of operation so that's also something that we could look at um I think that having some acoustic enclosure around any mechanical equipment specifically for commercial or all commercial I think that that would be a positive way going forward I think the problem is it's going to trap heat and overheat the mean mechanical units as would be my inkling on that but I I don't know um I did call um somebody familiar with this type of equipment and actually has some personal knowledge of it um he did say that there are opportunities to retrofit and provide some loued situations on the outside there's also options to provide some acoustic for the um like the interior the walls of it depending on how the cases built or whatever um but he did say limiting the hours for an ice machine is does would not really happen um he said he's never really seen that um just because of the way they operate how it's used how it functions and that kind of makes sense um he did acknowledge like during some of the processes it is louder than other times because it's switching over it makes the block of ice drops in the augur so those times you do hear louder noises and stuff like that um but it does sound like we do have some retrofit options that wouldn't be asking something that's not possible Commissioners no comments um I'm just trying to follow along we're talking about um two different noises one's oh absolutely one's commercially uh for you know events parties whatnot other is industrial um the noise ordinances as written do the does the sheriff's department have the facil have the equipment to be able to tell whether you're in violation or not is that something that has to be is okay um I think um at the last board meeting I think Tom presented his complaint and said that the sheriff's department the deputies didn't have it available at the time that he was having the the complaint is am I correct on that Tom just simple yes or no just all right didn't have someone present at the time they did not have anyone in the city because no was made on the permit to have someone here in the city they had an off-duty Deputy sitting out there in a car for 12 hours but he wasn't doing anything other than to make sure to keep he he didn't have the equipment with him but they said they could get someone they didn't say where he would come from the previous year they said the person was up in lgo but because there was a waiver it wouldn't matter because they can play the music as loud as they want so there's in other words there's no restrictions to the sound during a special event okay question before or the discussion do we want to create a noise restriction during a special event that's the issue it it is because when you have special events at John's Pass and you can hear the music four or five blocks away or if you have an event over here in the park and you can hear it six blocks away is is that necessary there there should be someone there with a noise meter that can govern it and you may want to have a decimal range for these special events because it doesn't need to go that that far okay makes sense thank you so are we going to talk about one subject at a time yeah probably yeah yeah let's talk about so it when you talk about doing special event permits and having a noise or ordinance I I understand Tom's pain but special events are held at Rock Park if we write an ordinance to have noise be whatever and we got a band playing at Rock Park they're not going to comply with what someone would probably want the noise ordinance to be down at I I don't know I mean I'm thinking of all the things that we do that are special events and they're typically short you have John's Pass there's bands down there we'd be regulating their volume and although I understand if you lived across the street it might not be ideal but they're typically for a day or like John's past when we do the seafood festival that is a weekend but it's um I think it's unfortunate and then when you get on the water anything on the water carries and is just I mean you could I can I can sit at my house I could sit at my house and call the sheriff's department and complain because the Elks Lodge has somebody outside playing and when I sit on my balcony he literally could be right down on my dock playing it's that loud when the wind is running or is blowing the right way it blows it right across the water to our house so we hear here the American I me leg so I think that's a difficult thing to try to regulate for special events I would agree um the I guess can you have special events anywhere at any time you you have to apply for them what's the what's the uh but we have an application process we have an ordinance that governs the process processes for special events so typically the special events are held as was stated John's Pass Village Rock Park and then if businesses want to have something that's going to draw a crowd such as what was mentioned earlier at the madir beach Cantina we require that they complete a that special event application and obtain a permit to hold the event same for if you want to have a beach wedding and you're going to have 200 guest guests on the sand we require that special event permit application what would keep and I know I'm being ridiculous here what would keep the Cantina from applying for a special event for every every Saturday I want to have a special event every every Saturday and we're going to have live music every Saturday and we're going to call it a special event so I'm not restricted to any noise ordinance every Saturday nothing I mean we our ordinance doesn't prohibit that I don't believe I don't I don't think so I don't yeah there there's no nothing that prohibits that but for the for the sake of this conversation and to simplify it if it happens within their four walls it's we you know it's it's not something that we're concerned about that's your business operation if it's outside in the parking lot and they're doing something specific they're adding seating a stage or whatever else because there there are plenty of businesses that do have bands that are you know they've got windows that are open and you can hear their music outside um I I think if we were to have somebody apply for 52 special event permits we'd have a larger discussion with and I I track what you're saying we would absolutely have a larger discussion with them because that's that's not in the it's tough to say this but it's not in the spirit of the purpose of the special event application it's a special event not a reoccurring event not a you know we've had people ask oh you know what if I do this every month well that's going to be a different conversation because we have to review this as a staff every single time there are concerns there are you know we do follow up when there is stuff um and I will say that the reason that they did this is they wanted to make sure that they did everything the right way as far as our ordinance goes um we did give them the feedback last year um and this was their you know sure the music was I I didn't hear it but I'm sure the music was louder than it needed to be and uh outside of that they did everything they could to be a good neighbor for the community so um something like this it's it's easier discussion to go hey and and I I do tell this with pretty much every special event that we get it's like look it says you you have a sound waver until this time but you still need to be a good neighbor if you get some complaints our expectation is you you work with whoever the complaint is or the sheriff department if they show up and then we will take that in consideration your next time around when you apply for it because if you don't want to play by the rules or at least be a good neighbor then we have no reason to approve it right I'm just asking the question so maybe maybe we can come up with an answer you know the seafood festival without the five bands and and the crowd that that draws um I can't see restricting the volume for the seafood and and and the families the nearby families that have an issue with that they probably need just need to schedule to be understand that that's the seafood vestival and you know it's it's part of where you live it's um reoccurring event every Saturday the the Cantina GNA Blair have a special event well that's becomes a whole different discussion every you know can't be in my home every Saturday um I don't know I'm I'm trying to think it out myself these are the questions oh it's a give you an example for that they closed their parking lot and then they asked the city if they could lease our parking lot which was allowed for this we're not going to be able to do that every single time yeah if it's Saturday of spring break and they're hey can we lease this parking lot well no or Saturday of seafood festival no there's going to be a lot of conflicts that come up that we can't accommodate the ability to do that trying to yeah some examp come up with a reasonable reasonable thing I mean um there are for every resident that would have a problem you know I mean this is their home I get it you know um for the crowd that the business is bringing they're trying to you know make a living um it's not an easy one I'm just trying to figure it out so special event has uh time restrictions correct uh T typically yes we encourage them to they have to give us hours and we encourage them to fall within that Sound Ordinance anyway with the hours we don't I I personally don't like extending past nine during the week and 10 or the on the weekends because realistically it serves no value even when we do our events seafood festival or music in the park we don't go later than that because there's no need to be blaring music at 10 11 o'clock at night no that's great and the referenced event did was completed at 9900 p.m. the Amplified sound Tom I'll give you another minute okay just a minute though just a couple things first of all the original owner of the Cantina to get his permit said I'm never going to have Amplified music there never got written into into a covenant so what happened is two owners later we've got music there they do it on their deck they have a sing solo single singer out there sometimes they're playing loud I'll call over and say can you turn this down okay sometimes they do and sometimes they don't it's the base that's B so if they had a couple guitars and a singer or two you're not going to get that pounding base that's the base that goes through the walls absolutely that's the problem all right and that's that's one of the things that could be done and say you can have some of your music you can attract your crowd but you're also having some concern for the residents understand and that's not happening okay all right thank you so I'm I'm still thinking this out it so special events has no sound restriction um I don't even know if a reasonable if a reasonable sound well there's if that's even something to consider I don't know if it really would make a difference I mean we we've and just like the the fitness center this is something that we've discussed probably four or five times Tom would know to we've discussed this quite a bit since I've been here probably even more before that but um I did have some discussions with a couple other cities that have run into in the past week or two since this was brought up we can I can look into other special event sound requirements um and and see what the best uh there was c a city specifically that I said hey we're looking at maybe bringing you requiring a sound meter at every special event and he goes yeah we did that for a couple years it didn't work it was it there's a lot of arbitrary variables that I mean if it's cold sound travels further if it's overwat if it's windy and you know where are we standing which way is the stage pointed all sorts of stuff so um we can absolutely look into some other cities and see what they do for that and I can bring back a couple of options or recommendations or you know whatever you guys are looking for something that might help and I get it you know we don't need I I wouldn't want to have a seafood Fest style event you know even 12 times a year and drive people nuts around town it it just doesn't make sense but you know we can see yeah I can see Tom's point of view also um if it is a if it is a special event and you know a holiday and just like you brought up what is a special event it could be every Saturday night but I think that given the circumstance that was Cinco to Mile right and and it was more than just a three-piece band I think it's if it's a bigger larger than that I think they should get a u you know possibly run it by the uh Board of Commissioners and get a different kind of permit I mean let us know what time it's going to start what what time it's going to end and and then vote on it that's a possibility also right if you look at page six of seven table two maximum noise levels perm minute in industrial commercial zones okay so you've got noise emanating from a commercial Zone ajining residential Zone maximum noise there is 60 DB and that's 700 a.m. to 11 pm Monday through Saturday so I mean there are some numbers in there that's is that that's the County ordinance yeah that's correct yeah we we have a city specific one that we we have we adopted the county yeah yeah so we have to I believe we have to go by this so I mean there is there is information here I I think where it gets a little tricky is um when when we go to our ordinances where it talks about amplifiers music 34- 87 it says the last part says unless approved by the city manager and I think that's what's happening that triggers when they approve the special event that's being approved so it kind of negates the associated rules is I think Circle we're in with that you're exactly right and uh commissioner McAn to to answer your question about running the special events past the commission um I've been down that road before I I beg that we don't have to do that um we we've got a permit process that is pretty well established it could use some tweaks maybe with the sound but bringing it here is just it's a lot of and well we we've it there was a a weird gray area of where's the line drawn and it ended up being everything from the weekly Market to you know Seafood Fest you know all all across the board so there's a lot of I would really like to avoid that just to be hon we wouldn't like to have two meetings a week yeah no we would not can you imagine if we had to approve no oh my gosh it takes us six months to approve anything pretty much that would be crazy um commissioner um tag lini left did mention during our walking tour of John's Pass for the Neighborhood Activity Center regarding the possibility of in the resort District yeah John's Pass Resort or was it the transitional the transitional where the mad beach Cantina is okay that's the transitional District the transitional District to limiting Amplified noise specifically that's more of a residential um area than commercial core traditional Village in John's Pass Village uh something to consider and that's what is being discussed public meetings about so that would alleviate potentially I mean I'm not saying that's what we should do that is I think a very valid comment that he made um that he I think even if I recall correctly whether he that he would support um but that was the comment you know could we restrict no or have something such as no Amplified sound in that District take again taking into count yes you do have vacation rentals pretty much Madera Bay is I believe mostly vacation rentals around there and the restaurant the Madera Beach canteen is in the middle of those two structures and you have the Barefoot Beach house across the street which is primarily a vacation rental or hotel but you're in a much more of a residential area if you go to the Northeast if you go to the west of those areas so a different character District again clearly than John's Pass Village and the boardwalk I believe in the time I've been here so I've been here for three Seafood festivals we typically receive a few calls about the noise um and I know that in March we received one or two but it may have been the same person cons con expressing concerns about noise from the Bamboo Beach Bar we allow I allowed them to have additional space during the time period from the final Friday through Spring Break um which I received significantly more um you know that we love that versus hey it was you know too much noise but where they set up in the parking lot yes oh that was great the stage yeah faces to the east I believe the person that called lives across on G Lane so yeah they're they're going to hear it whether it's somebody playing in the regular bamboo stage or the one that's out in the the turnaround area um but again it goes back to do we want to for lack of a better term restrict have certain deciel levels deciel levels for special events um you do that I mean I don't Jay would know more but I I know that so I was at a previous City where that was done and it didn't work and I do recall even certain acts stating that they would not perform there because of oh you're going to restrict the noise or it can only be that we're not interested in that um would would that happen I don't know but I know in the past it did it it's difficult but we can go through that process and restrict the deciel noise levels if that's your you know your direction or request for us to do that something we can look into I'm just curious Pat um if if we did that in the transitional District um and they brought the sheriff got a sheriff on duty would they be able to specifically request that the sheriff has that equipment with them during the event yeah I'm sure they could it's not that equipment is not as common as some other equipment we have but it is available it's Avail but if you but if there's a special event issue without a decimal yeah threshold then so that it's already been chosen that that's an exception so we're not going to do that if there was a bar thatal operation and there was complain that would be something we would inter but for a special event that's already been determined then that's you all have determined that special event exists so that's back to the the key is in essence amending or considering to amend our special event ordinance requiring here's one more requirement related to decible levels I mean that's well I kind of like the idea based on the character District you may not want to limit anything that's down in the Village proper in that character District but in the transitional I mean that's where we have many residents and that's where we get the have the issues in that transitional area so even if it's a special event perhaps a decel level that could be monitored and if the sheriff's department knew ahead of time they could have the equipment on hand that makes I'm amable to that little quick thing oh please we haven't heard from you at all please come up microphone pleas yeah please come up thank you little bit about s but not a lot but I think that the annoying Bas what what's your name and where do you live already live on G Boulevard okay the the annoying deciel or the annoying sound that comes from bass drums that CA stuff like that doesn't really get picked up by decibel meters oh it carries a long long way but the meters don't necessarily get it and some sometimes when people want to sh back here shaking his head he's in some places they've done like if you can hear it from a you know 500 feet away it's too loud even though a deel meter doesn't pick that up okay and that's the annoying news okay thank you valid point there too problem with that solution is it's subjective it is it yes and you can't just measure the base I wouldn't imagine no I don't no I don't think so anything else on this but yeah the TR I kind of like that idea but it's it is it's yeah all right move down the list John's Pass Activity Center zoning Workshop thank you guys for coming yeah thanks see you in the morning Bri and early 4:30 a.m. yeah we're just gonna stay up we're going to breakfast now yeah so the this is the update on workshops that have been held and where we are in the I need to take a two minute break two minute you don't mind if we take a did you want to take a break or just continue okay I'm good okay so just to kind of where we are in the process of the John's Pass activity Zone Neighborhood Activity Zone yeah so we've been uh we had our workshops and we came back last month with um a rough draft of see I'm not going to go through the whole presentation so it's after okay so in your packet here there we go scrolled past it on pages 229 and then 230 we have a kind of a summarization of from those work workshops uh those round tabls and um yeah we provide that in the packet and then we also have uh to the right of that the potential standards um based off of the workshops that we held and then the um know everybody everybody um attended from the OC so thank you for that um but if you remember we had the round tables we went around and um wrote wrote all the um answers from each table so that's that's what these um this table is from and then bringing that into potential standards and what you'll see in um Boardwalk there's a little bit of changes from the setbacks um and commissioner Kerr mentioned possibly measuring design flood elevation to the eve to discourage those flat roof design to really encourage um more of that old Floridian architectural style so that's what you'll see in here that most of those measurements are from design flood elevation so space flood a plus 4 foot of freeboard um to that Eve and then we are conducting walking tours which you all of you so if you have not signed up and you would like to please do it's been um it's been great um just getting feedback and then really walking around the village taking measurements uh also showing where the ride of way is we have a survey that was done um November 2018 and you can I didn't provide it in the packet um I can email it to the board and then when we go out there on our walking tour I know commissioner Kerr did the walking tour with us and as you remember the the public rideway is and the property lines are not really where you would think they would be especially in the village so that contributes a lot to the proposed setbacks and uh what could be built in the future and I don't know if everyone has had time to really digest this um and come up with any comments or concerns we can obviously address it right now and then during the walking tour um we've been taking notes and then updating these sheets so what we plan to go forward from here is we're hoping to have a very rough draft for Planning Commission to review next month um based off of comments and any comments today and the comments from the walking tours and then we'll be able to bring back their comments to the board as well Jenny Jenny sorry you mentioned for the Planning Commission meeting on June thir yes um is it the third it's the it's the one in June June okay yes sorry I know we talked about base floor elevation um I don't know if that was brought into any of your print out here um the the height from the eve lowest floor oh the lowest floor no we have we don't have that in there right now I know that we were talking about it on our walking tour but um we don't have anything like that in there at the moment is this was put in there before our tour so previously the city did measure from grade and in the master plan it was recommended for the city not to do that because of how the properties can vary from from the what like is that like at grade for elevation because down there could be properties at like like three feet or five feet and it just is easier to measure from design flood elevation to give flexibility and allow people people to be able to build up and and protect themselves from from a storm surge um so it it it design it's it's easier to measure from that and it's more consistent and it avoids the the issues that the code previously had um like back in the day are you discussing uh measuring the height or just a minimum um no I mean that all goes into I know we were looking at the the eve height so you could change the pitch of the roof and provide different character throughout the Village um and I understand that being from the design flood elevation but the overall height of the structure we have to start somewhere on that base floor and we had the discussion basically where they had the fire years many years ago in the village and they had to rebuild and that area was elevated was it I think you measured that 24 in or something something like that um and then going to Treasure Island and and listening to their Elevate TI process I really I I kind of like that goal of 7.6 feet six feet as their lowest floor and if we're talking about the village any new structures of the village if we had that lowest floor elevation kind of as a goal so that we don't have as much worry about flooding throughout the village as new things are are built I know you're you could you're going to be flood proofed if you're retail or whatever but regardless um I would just like more thought on that and then okay so even though it starts at base flood elevation if we had the lowest floor the base floor elevation and we we kind of did some quick measurements from there 14 feet on the lowest floor of commercial which is pretty typical and two feet and then maybe 10 feet and two feet and find out where we are with that total elevation for the highest occupied space which was basically the Eve if you follow where I'm go going there to maybe um hammer out these these elevations um so um I me obviously both at the ti are you your the main goal for you is to start setting a base elevation that we want them to start achieving for that first first floor so and then yeah and then once they do that what ti had discussed too is the height so let's say you were able to put in two feet of fill you get that 2 feet you never lose just because you elevate you don't lose your ability to get the height back which is kind of what we do now so so we're we're going through this whole zoning process let's just say um new structures any and let's say let's use their number 7.6 elevation as your lowest floor what's that look like overall for our building elevation right for let's say two two 10t uh stories over base what's that what's that actually look like two air conditioned floors or one elevation you know whatever we come up with but you know so we're not saying stories but kind of get an idea of what for the different character districts where we would like to see that elevation and we can um I know obviously Justin's they've been doing a lot of research to come to set their elevation um and it kind of all started with their doing their watershed management plan which he is the gentleman his team is also the one working on ours I think once we start getting that data that will drive some of the numbers that we're we would we would be looking at if we if we decided to kind of start following some of that methodology and their workflow it's pretty extensive how they have it built in their manual as far as if when what can be raised how much it can be raised location and I think you were there for those conversations um and they showed some examples um but yeah that's definitely something we could look at and discuss with him and tell them that we're kind of thinking of headed in the same direction and start setting achievable goals for that um so that is something we can talk about with one way to look at how like that a potential building um let me just pull up an existing building down in in the past for for example a newer a newer building and we can definitely show it examples based on kind of like the number you've thrown those drawings I sent just get get the discussion going something like that yep and you you kind of measure it out from the let's call it eight feet I don't whatever seven feet eight feet but whatever our goal would be what's that look like right if I was actually GNA build something what would that look like so I gotcha yeah we can definitely do that without having a yeah pin down number so one way to look at it is is almost like a cake you have your flood prooof ground floor retail and parking behind the building you have um air conditioned space above that that could be in this building there there is some retail on the second floor but um other buildings it could be condominium unit temporary lodging hotel room so you basically have your ground floor that's flood prooof retail or or parking or combination of the two and then you have your air condition space above it so that would be the 34t from DFE to the E line so that think of that is your habitable space that you could have those hotel rooms con residential condominium units and then above that would be the architectural features like the roof um elevator like air AC units like that kind of stuff so you you kind of have this layer of habitable space within that 34 feet I think um what he's more interested in I I believe is um if we were to start asking for people to put in fill to achieve a certain elevation then we have our Heights that we're suggesting what does that Building look like once we say okay you can go up to two and a half feet of fill then what does the first floor look like the second floor the Eve so he's looking for maybe a visual of that so it's more or less related to how adding that fill impacts how the buildings end up looking and then what's the required fill what's the required elevation at the ground right so that that that that's a perfect example Andrew you have two looks like two stories over your commercial so in that case if your base floor walking in off the street if you had to step up to that 7.6 for your lowest floor that and your retail space at at the bottom was 14 feet all right so you're you're already at I'm going to call it 8 feet your base flood elevation 14 okay so that's six six feet from from that base floor well you're not going to have a six foot uh first floor you're going to have probably at minimum 10 but probably more like 14 because that's your commercial space that's just what I've seen anyway I thought I think that's kind of standard so if that was 10 and you have a foot or two for the next structure or of the of the floor you know build it up and what's that what's that height look like to build that building is it you know I know we took some measurements of the Eve but if we had to rebuild it yeah what would that what would that look like what would that Eve height what would that Sealing of your top occupied floor look like and you're just because we're looking at this building and talking about too one of the things that TI is working through is so let's say you have that and that has to go up you know three or four feet then yeah can you really get back down to the road can you really use the back to drive in are you creating too great of a pitch so it's playing with that fill number to get it to that sweet spot and go okay here's where you can be so they're creating that workflow for them but but the whole goal is that we don't flood to begin with I know it's supposed to be flood proofed on that first um and I know you're going to take all this to planning right is that the is that the idea we'll be taking this to planning um one of the other um things we discussed I don't know if we got into your um design here so far as having a minimum of one side as retail yes so what's in the packet was um in the packet before we had our walking tour so I we have the notes from our walking tours we'll be gathering notes from all the walking tours that we do yeah with all the Commissioners okay I don't want to go ahead ahead of myself I'm sorry I think that with um kind of picking backing off of what Marcy was saying when we do when we finally get the wmp um we'll have a better idea of those elevations and if we want to go down a route of you know what elevation would be minimal required um and what that would look like right so right now we just don't have that data but once we get that wmp we'll have more of that data and then obviously uh we'll be discussing that here and and just a my concern about having the PE roof Peak as the height limit is because then that would give the option to try to okay well we're gonna have a flat roof so we can get that extra occupied space we I I think the charm of the village is the different roof pites and some of the Steep roof bges and absolutely and we have to preserve that and just by saying the height is at the top of the roof I think that's going to be problematic I think we could definitely word Smith out with some good verbiage to to cover that as well oh I'm sure what appreciate one thing we included to try to reduce kind of the bulk of the building was in the uh commercial core District um we have the heights uh you have to meet certain lot size thresholds of each reach C Heights and for multiple story buildings a 10- foot minimum step back behind the primary uh facade of the building shall be required for stories above the second floor for portions of a building facing or bordering a public right way so basically so for example so this has a six-story parking garage hidden behind this twostory uh facade and and basically what this would mean is if someone come came in and wants to build a new building they wouldn't be able to build a square brick of a a building they would have to to reach that 55 5 ft from DFE the the upper floors would have to be a stepped back um so you would then have kind of be able to hide the height because if you're standing here you don't see a six-story parking garage you see the twostory uh like these buildings but it's hiding a six-story parking garage so we we kind of and this isn't the full ordinance this is almost like a summary of kind of we it's it's a long ordinance the the the rough draft is so there's a lot more details and we've looked at other places like like denan um and that that have like design standards kind of like that because they don't they don't want super tall buildings either so they they've had so that's what we've tried to include especially based off of what we've heard and in the max height 55 feet might sound but it's significantly less than any of the taller buildings like madira Bay or or barefood Beach Club because we understand that we don't want to allow for buildings that tall but uh 55 ft would Encompass like like the condos that were built like before 83 and then the the park and garage so next step is you're taking it the planning and you're going to review yeah we have a rough draft that we'll be taking to planning so it's we won't be talking about recommendations or anything like that but just getting their input um with the actual draft so they can see that because we've we've taken this as a discussion items to them I think that's the best way moving forward to to really see the draft and uh get full input and then we'll be bringing it to you I think y'all have put a lot of work into it I'm looking forward to my walk good anybody else think we're good then all right next up is the I local 4966 collective bargaining agreement October 2024 to September 2027 and good mayor and commissioner and fire chief Clint Bel walks up I do want to say we did have a couple of meetings with the local 4966 uh they were relatively I would say they were relatively short um very good meetings entertaining they were very good uh good discussions but uh the reality was we were in kind of along the same lines and agreement almost from the beginning uh regarding just the changes from the previous agreement so what We're the Chief will discuss here briefly is a uh tentatively what the local agreed to um what management uh has agreed to for a new three-year uh collective bargaining agreement so from October 1 2024 through September 30th of 2027 uh and there really the the majority of the changes revolving compensation some smaller ones regarding some adjusted for acting position pays um and then a slight change for um sick year sick leave excuse me throughout the uh throughout the year and but I do want to thank certainly the local the bargaining Lieutenant Childers and in particular for his work but certainly the entire uh bargaining unit uh I think I definitely do commend for their work and putting everything together or the majority of this information together Chief all right uh mayor vice mayor commission uh what you have before you for review and consideration is the new collective bargaining agreement between local 4966 in the city of madira beach um as uh Robin said stated it's essenti it essentially outlines the pay leave hours disciplinary actions the the steps that I have to take in case there are any um and ironically enough to Jerry Cantrell's point with a a competitive pay we'll be ble to continue to attract high quality candidate candidates and retain the high quality candidates that we currently have which is a huge huge Boon for the fire department um I don't want to steal too much of this thunder so I'll ask for a union representative Lieutenant Andy Childers to come up and say a few words as well all right thank you good evening Mr Mayor Commissioners long night honestly uh just Echo what city manager Gomez said um super easy simple round of negotiations everything seemed to click pretty much from the get-go we came in not asking for the world um we really never have that's kind of always our our point you know we're a super capable fire department I like to throw out there that there's not one single unit in the entire County that's capable of doing everything that we do probably take that one step further there's not one single station with multiple units in the county that's able to to complete the tasks that we are able to complete just off off of our ladder truck um and in return we just want to be above maybe slightly above average that's kind of always been our position on it we uh we pride ourselves on on doing what we do for the ciens of deer beach everybody over there loves it uh we love working here and uh that's it if you guys got any questions for me I'll do my best to answer them so to go just to again reiterate thank you lieutenant chill but the yeah if you have any questions at any time but I just wanted to go reiterate quickly the as the memo States the increases uh essentially um and Andy you can correct me but we pretty much reduced the steps from 14 to 10 um the step and this is for all three years but I'm going to start with fiscal 25 the actual steps were all the difference between each step went from 3% to 5% correct and then we proceeded to increase each step in year 1 7% eight 10% I'm sorry General wage increase the entire plan itself is 10% in year one including the reduction steps from 14 to 10 and the increase from three to five between those steps and as I shared with each one of you individually so estimated um fiscal impact for that is about 200,000 um given of course it um we can get a much better C we'll have a definitive calculation for the budget for fiscal 25 what that will be but again taking into account uh that those steps do go into effect October 1 the adjustments for the payer are based on when they achieve the next step each individual member U but we will provide that with the budget when we have all Personnel costs at the June meeting to give you that but it's estimated about 200,000 in the first year also a so a starting um firefighter paramedic U we will be I think definitely a little bit above the middle but at a very very competitive rate we're not the highest in the county but in in starting October one of this year if we were to hire another firefighter paramedic we would be at that's starting salary at $ 64,8 44 which think is a very um good rate of pay to start again uh driver paramedic at what 68,000 and again Lieutenant paramedic which I think they have to have at least the two years that's a reason why they're in year or step three um close to 78,000 any questions Commissioners vice mayor all right thank you thank you guys have a great night all right next up is Golf Boulevard undergrounding City easement approval as Public Works director Megan weord comes up we're as we had stated during the budget or Miss weer stated trying to move swiftly through the undergrounding it's certainly we try to be opportun opportunistic about it but it is unfortunately we're a little bit at the relying on Duke Energy for a lot of the work but Megan good evening this is very nice new Podium we have here um so what we have before you today are three easements um from Duke Energy and actually Tom tras can um also chime in when needed if I am incorrect about any information um he's been working with the IL consultants for the title searches and also the easement documents um for these rep parcels and I saw your email I'm not sure if there are more that we are still waiting for these are these are it um so there's three listed in this packet um all of the location all the title search documents are included the reason for these are to set the Duke Energy equipment the Transformers the pedestals fdot does not want those on their right of way therefore they have have to be set back in the event fdot decides that they're going to either increase the size of the sidewalk or or the depth of the road or any of that they don't want to have to come back and move the equipment later on so these are just approvals from the city Mr TR did I miss anything so they're they're three easements they give Duke Energy the ability to place her equipment on these par Parcels that the city owns by fee simp so we own these properties outright they're not in the right way um these easements are kind of kind of BL what I call blanket easements and I've negotiated some terminology in each one of the easements that once the equipment is set wherever it's set on the property we're going to do a more descriptive easement that would specifically just pick up where the location of the particular equipment is they don't know where it's going to be in the beginning but we'll eventually get it to a point where we have a descriptive eement within 90 days of them placing the equipment and so there will be another one that will come back in each one of these three locations so we're trying to limit the the usable the space that they use to the smallest available space so that we don't lose control or use of the remainder of our Parcels of these well these these three Parcels so um I have reviewed the title information on each one of them we do own them all outright um I have double- checked all the legal descriptions and I have negotiated the terms the way that it currently reads so my recommendation is approval uh to keep the project moving it took us about four months to get to this point of constant nagging to get them done so I'm glad that we finally got them for you Megan will you have any input exactly where these Transformers are set on these on these easements or we are going to open Mr TR said take up the least amount of space put them in a place where it's not going to disturb the parking because they're they're all in the parking lots um so most likely we'll lose one parking spot or in that in one case it's not even a parking lot it's just an access um so it I don't know for certain but I will have an input out there on the field that's that's all I'm asking is if you're going to have input I will you know walked it with them already the easement requires mutual agreement they can't just put it where they want no Megan has to be involved in it it wouldn't be able to go in the middle of a parking lot and five parking spaces and this is much like what they're doing and this is another really time consuming part of this whole process is every single property along GF Boulevard that will have equipment which is I feel like it's even more than it ever used to be has to sign off on an agreement and has to have an easement so so we've met with and utility Consultants have met with most of the people but even Church By the Sea they're they've met and they negotiated and again it took several months do you have all the easements or do they have all the public easements I believe so I think we're just waiting on these three be executed and I believe all the rest of them are completed but we do have the permit from fdot so we are I talked to them today we are scheduled to start mid June so we can't start until everything is signed and notorized in in the record right great great good any other questions all right next up concession stand and enclos building schematic proposal please last one up for the night all right uh good evening again um so this is a a proposal we uh reached out to well let me start from the beginning uh we have had some previous discussions I think and some one-on ones with you all about uh looking at the concession stand that is located out here in Rock Park uh and the need for a larger facility to serve the special events and Athletics that take place out there as well as looking at one of the two tennis courts uh in and closing it uh potentially for other other programming uh basketball volleyball Fitness classes summer camp after school care Etc um so through our continuing service agreement with uh colier engineering and design it was bid out back in I think 2019 to look at that yeah anyway pre previously bid out for continuing Services agreement uh we reached out to them and discussed the project uh they've provided a bid for the project at$ 53,0 uh $25 uh to help with the schematic design public meetings everything we need to get us to the point where we can start looking at uh cost estimates and construction um for the facility if we were to move in that direction uh we did budget for 100,000 uh in fy2 24 which was uh about half of that budget which is nice it's lower than I thought it would be um the big thing with this and uh commissioner Kerr I know you're going to ask it so there are potential grants in the future if we have these schematics and that's uh that's the real big uh push with this um the the county has since 2017 has been holding on to this Capital Improvement program uh they overfunded it in 2017 and it's kind of sat idle until this year and then they gave us 90 days so we we are not going to catch it this year there's no there's no way it could have happened uh but we are looking towards getting this done knowing the figures the estimates uh what we're looking for in the building um and then moving that direction ideally next year uh if they reopen the application so um they have as a county as visit St be Clearwater who sends us a lot of our events they help fund the King of the Beach events that we are host to uh the softball tournaments that we do um they've identified our concession stand is one of the biggest needs in the facilities that they help uh fill with these events uh so that's really where it started and now we're just kind of looking to make sure that uh we do something that will help with those events but more importantly serves our community throughout the entire year so uh having just two restrooms out there is is a challenge you know one of them breaks or you know they've got to be clean thoroughly multiple times a day on certain events and I mean you guys have all either seen them or been out there so we're hoping to do something that you know would offset these we wouldn't be renting portal for events we'd be able to use this for those special events uh and then look for other opportunities to to program it to make sure that it's it's used much much more often so cers will be writing these grants uh callers actually yes that's the company Megan mentioned earlier as well that is familiar with the grant writing so they're um I I primed them in our early in our conversations about what we'd be looking for um so we would have to essentially the countyy is looking for build ready designs um um which we'll get to with this and then the other aspect that we would bring back is that we would require a economic impact study uh they've got a list of organizations and and knowing that it's needed uh it gives us a lot more a longer time frame uh in the 90-day crunch that they got it naturally drove up the prices for those economic impact studies we actually talked to at an event last week City of Clear Water had to pay uh I think 15 grand or something to get one done as quick as they could uh just for this but um so yeah that's where the the plan is to get the engineering done and and get the Grant application written and so that we have minimum cost this year well so this built next year is that uh well we want to be ready to go the next time this opens up ideally it's going to be next year uh Robin and I have also discussed uh essentially once we have this going to them and saying this is what want to do I'm just trying to get my head around so we're what you're asking for now is the Authority or authorization or whatever to to go ahead and get all your paperwork done your Gant application your engineering your uh uh engineering the Grant application that that's by the time this is done I mean the Grant application is due uh next Friday they gave us 90 days no I I I I understand I'm not saying for this fiscal not for this term to get your application in I'm just saying you need to all your ducks in a row that's what that's what this so yeah well we'll get the the design cost estimates done with this before I apply for the grant right we'll come back to you because I'm not going to go apply for $5 million without talking to you guys and that's that was a terrible number to throw out it's not going to be that much sorry I'm not gonna go request some crazy amount just to give you an idea the the grant that that we qualify for for this yeah is a dollar Ford dooll match so I want to make sure and that's why you see some of the stuff budgeted in the future but also we're going to look at funding opportunities through them sponsorship opportunities we're gonna I'll come back with a business plan per se on where that funding is coming from with the cost estimates and then moving forward perfect yeah this will give us a budget as to what those improvements will likely be I mean a very good estimate but also something that we can tangibly present to visit St P Clearwater to say here's here's the what we have and what we're looking to do along with an economic impact study of the improvements and for the dollar Ford dooll match so come back and say it'll be 7 you know let's say one you know million dollars then hopefully we can get 500,000 from visit St Pete Clearwater and then we just need would need to come up with the half a million and there's other resources we can look at which we will similarly to the other projects that we've proposed but we do have to start somewhere um and clearly going out and all of our users you know your facilities are spectacular location everything about it you just have a a terrible concession and restroom facility among yeah I would suggest um applying multiple places not for sure not a single place that's the benefit of having callers on board as well they've they've been fantastic they're they're excited about the project obviously as a business but they're excited for us as the potential of what they can bring to the park so perfect they're taking some some ownership in it which is nice to see and we and that's just they sound like a good partner they are so far all right thank you you people shutting down their computers anything else nothing else it's 10:40 p.m. let's adjourn