have two we only have two that work hello oh perfect testing okay can everybody hear me all right good morning thank you so much for coming this morning a beautiful Saturday uh so how this is going to work I have a presentation um up here we'll talk we have Marcy Forbes Our Community Development engineer we have Andrew Morris um our long range planner and then I'm Jenny Rowan I'm the community development director so we'll have a presentation just a general overview of John's past Village what it is what we're doing here today and then um after that we'll kind have breakout sessions so you're in these round taes you'll talk to everybody in your group um there are certain things that we really want to gather your input uh what's important in the areas in each district um propos setbacks possible Heights and so you'll Talk Amongst yourselves in your groups and then we'll have somebody at each table kind of share what your group has talked about and then we'll go to the next district and we'll be talking about these districts and um the areas that they are so anyways okay I guess I will go ahead and start so we're here today to talk about John's Pass Village District zoning and we have three workshops this is the first Workshop uh all three workshops will be the same we might make a little changes here and there just to see how today's goes and then uh next Thursdays goes and then we have a Sat one on Saturday next Saturday so little bit of uh local land regulations and how this works there's really three different plans that we're looking at when we look at well what can you do with your land so we have the county it's Ford pelis you can see on the top of this triangle they have their countywide plan and then within that plan they have their rules their strategies and they have a map and on the map they have different land use categories and it has really intensity density uses just kind of basic Bare Bones of what you can do with your land and then locally we have two different plans so we have our comprehensive plan that looks very similar to the counties so uses um intensities densities what you can do with your land um and then we have the future land map and then we also have the code of ordinances this is where you have your Zone zoning and that's really what we're talking about today so in our zoning our zoning is within our Land Development regulations you might hear us say ldrs that's what we're referring to and so in the zoning we have you have like your setbacks we have your uses we have your height U there's also special characteristics like as you'll see in a few different districts if you're next to a residential property you might have a larger setback back on the sides and then we also have Landscaping things of that so as a property owner when you come in you come and talk to us you say well what can I do with my property we're generally showing you the code of ordinances and the zoning districts of this is where you can expand your house this is what you can and can't do with your property so each parcel of land has three um designations on it so you have your land use at the counties your land use locally with the comprehensive plan and then you have the zoning and this is what those look like so you can see with the countywide plan map here on the left the area that we're talking about today is John's Pass Village Activity Center so everything in this darker blue that's what we're talking about today and then you can see our uh comprehensive plan in our future land use map here at the bottom right that's that uh magenta color so we have the activity center um designation the countywide level we have it at our comprehensive plan so we also have it adopted locally and now the last piece of this is really bringing all of that together and putting it in the zoning so the zoning map will need to correspond to these other two maps so going back in history why are we here what what is this so in the 40s and 80s many of the buildings in John's Pass area in this area well in all madir Beach was built uh 1983 was a creation of the zoning districts so the zoning remember that's uses Heights setback all of those things at the local level um many of those did not reflect what was on the ground so we call those buildings if they do not meet the codes uh we call that legally non-conforming buildings so you might hear us talk about that as well back in ' 07 and '08 there were some amendments to the comprehensive plan and Land Development regulations those are our two local plans um and those exceeded the countywide plans maximums now we have to be in line with the county we cannot exceed the county we can be less than the county but we cannot exceed the County's land use so back in 2020 2022 our current staff found those inconsistencies we talked to Ford pelis uh we did a lot of research we brought that to the community as well um back to our boards and we kind of discussed on how to proceed with the future and so in 2022 and 24 we really had more public workshops um public hearings on creating the John's Pass Village Activity Center so that different land use really um incorporates what was built on the ground and accounting for that so now those are both adopted like you can see in this plan so it's adopted at the countywide level and then our local land use level and now we have to go and um adopt our new zoning to correspond with that so what is an activity center um the activity center really protects that unique character of what we all know and love of the village Al it assures that any new development is compatible with what's already built there uh it also assures that we are now consistent with the count countywide plan and it's really a proactive instead of reactive approach to planning so Land Development regulations um you heard me say this earlier the ldrs what we're really looking within the ldrs it's a part of our local uh code of ordinances we're looking at the uses So within the uses we have primary use accessory use um and special exception those are the three uses so special exception you have to get approval through the special magistrate um and then we also have setbacks in the zoning we have Building height which is measured from design flood elevation we'll go over that in just a little bit and then there's also special requirements in the zoning and so that can um include additional landscape that can be additional setbacks if you have a certain use next to say residential we have that in a few districts one of the things we're going to ask you guys to kind of weigh in on today with the different districts is height um how tall we want the buildings to be a lot of people speak in stories and while that's a good gut check when you're talking to somebody we actually measure it in feet so we basically take the whatever uh the allowances are for height are measured from the designed flood elevation the entirety of madira beach is in a special flood hazard area so we all have base flood elevations based on the 1% chance of a storm event occurring and how high the water can go based on that base flood elevation we then add a freeboard so the city of Madera Beach has a 4 foot freeboard so once you have your base flood elevation of let's say 10 then we add the free board takes it to 14 that becomes your designed flood elevation and the the starting point of where we measure height from height will be measured from design flood elevation to the top of the highest like livable or occupiable space then above that there are allowances for elevator shafts chimneys stairwells stuff like that um so that's kind of what we'll be talking to you guys about today and what you'll have the opportunity to weigh on in in each district obviously what looks good in one District may not be the best for another District so those are the things we'll be looking for feedback from you guys on today um let's see what is there anything next okay again talking stories and I actually do have two full-size sheets of what you're seeing here what we wanted to show you too is with stories stories can vary in height so you'll notice when you pull into maybe the first floor of a parking garage it's a lot higher than every other floor after that or you can walk into a home with 14 foot ceilings that's the first story but the next floor may only have 11 foot ceilings so that's why stories become less of a a relative marker and the height becomes critical in this example we kind of show you the height from the top of the floor floor to the bottom of the structural element above and then from the structural element to the top of the next floor above and so we're going to kind of try to drive home how why stories can vary in height and why they vary in height so we're going to brought some pictures to show you guys that but for the most part when you're talking around here we look at about 11 to 14 feet for the average story just as a a gut check point of reference setbacks okay so um we also talk about set backs that's another thing you guys will get to to weigh in on as well today to give you an idea of what we do with the setbacks is when you have a parcel or a lot that you're developing whether it's commercial or your home it comes with setbacks and those are measured from the from your property line so the primary part of the structure any part of the structural sport of the building has cannot fall into those setbacks so if you have a 20ft setback every part of your structure on that first floor has to be within the 20 ft it's not for parking and stuff like that it's the primary main structure and all of its support has to be within that primary setback so that's how we measure that and we look for the entirety of the footprint to be within those setbacks as you go to your second floor there are allowances per code and very common for an encroachment of let's say a 4 foot balcony but that's as you begin to elevate and go up and there are still rules and regulations around those so here we have an example of one actual prop property that's built and how we did the setbacks you'll see they're all measured from the property line you have GF Boulevard facing you have um Gulf Lane on the backside you have another Street bounding it to the left and then on the right you have an adjacent property so that's how we look at the setb all right so we have our zoning map our existing zoning map on the left side that's what it looks like right now and then on the right side these are the character districts if you've been following us previously with the activity center with the land use and all the meetings that we've had with that uh this might look familiar this is all the different character districts so we know that within the activity center area there's different fields different characters um of this area so definitely things on Pelican Lane should look different than what's on Boardwalk um as well as things that are on Gul Boulevard looking different than what's on uh Village Boulevard so we understand that and that's why we have six different character districts can also see them in your Maps over here and um on your worksheets if you've taken a look at your worksheets that we've handed out we also have each six character districts so these will really be codified um well we have it codified in the comprehensive plan with the special area plan but it's really now bringing all of that into to the zoning so we're going to go over each character district and once we go through one character District we'll stop and then have yall Talk Amongst yourselves um fill out the setbacks that you're thinking or different um things that are unique and special to the area that you think should be preserved or um that really creates that feel of the area so we'll be starting with Boardwalk as you can see on here um so the current step backs are up on the screen and the front uh that's 20 feet side is 5 feet on one side the rear or Waterfront side so along the actual Boardwalk is none and then the height like Marcy was saying earlier which is measured from DFE now the easiest way to imagine it that I like to imagine it is like at the second story so starting at that Second Story going up what's that height so that height is 34 feet so just an example of what those setbacks look like we just plucked a lot um down in that district and you can you can see that um up on the screen so we have 34 starting at that second floor so like where the boardwalk begins um and going upward and we have that 20 foot setb right here and 5et on one side and like Marcy was saying earlier um this right now is depicted as two stories also depends on how high your your each floor is so maybe you might be able to get three stories there given that height two three stor something like that um also depends on what type of roof you have if you're having a flat roof if you have a gable roof like this and then we also we try to do this in each character District just finding an example of the height of what's actually down there what's actually built so this is Hubbard's Marina um as you can see here's the the grade it's the base flood elevation design flood elevation that's where we measure the height so from that design flood elevation to the top of the roof that's 37 feet that just kind of gives you an idea of what that height really looks like because it is it is pretty hard to visualize and so if you want to break off I think that oh and then we have some pictures of what's down on the boardwalk um so now we'll be asking you just to talk amongst your elves and your groups uh look at your worksheet we have what the existing setbacks are the existing height um and just Talk Amongst yourselves of what you think the height should be um if there's any characteristics of this area that are very important you feel like need to be preserved um there's anything special requirements that you think should be written in the zoning you just want to get your feedback oh and then if you have any questions specifically on on what to do or um of each district just feel free to ask U and we have somebody in the back to to pass the mic so you can just raise your hands say yo joe joe if you guys have any questions Jo bring you the microphone so you're talking about how he are we also considering the setbacks for that commercial Corridor or commercial area so right now we're really just focusing okay no height and and setbacks but just on Boardwalk so we're just Boardwalk just right now we're only focusing on Boardwalk so do you have any information on how many of the buildings on the boardwalk currently meet the current setback uh we do not have that here okay thank you so uh what would be the maximum Building height pulling it up I can hear you so what will be the maximum Building height you asked uh that's really what will come out of these public workshops and then the public hearings that will be going forward so we want to hear what you think should be the the height what's a appropriate in all these districts so right now we're just looking at Boardwalk just this little sliver as you can see up there uh so on your worksheet you have um the existing what's in our zoning code um an example of the highest building which is this building uh which is 37 feet above design flood elevation and we really want you to talk amongst your groups and and then we'll we'll ask we'll come around Joe what are the proposed height limits on that um that's what we're trying to get out of here we want to get public feedback on on what everyone thinks yeah and then we'll be collecting that and bringing that to our Board of commission Planning Commission all right e also guys as I mentioned um we have some examples of actual plan sheets with height on them to kind of show you some of the floor and some of the height from grade if you guys want to look at the full sizee plan sets or plan sheets e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e yeah so it's been a little over 10 minutes um do we need a little bit more time does everybody need a little bit more time or are we maybe another minute or two five more minutes is five minutes good another five minutes okay e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e okay is everybody about about ready good yes we got a yes we got a yes for So the plan oh do you want to do you want to write okay so we will go go around each table and we want to hear any comments about height and then we'll go to setback and then other so other could be design standards or things that uh might be tricky or things that you think that we really need to look into while we're doing the zoning okay so we're g to try everybody just talk about height so we'll start at this table over here uh and Joe will have the microphone so if we just have one person per table kind of to talk about what your table talked about just talking about height you Nom apparently I guess I guess I've been nominated uh our discussion has been to keep the heights where they are except for where it comes to the commercial where they can flood proof the first floor and that gives them that extra story on the ground going up to take away the DFE just as an idea so if basically if you flood prooof the ground floor then you're going to lose that at the top but to maintain what's there are you talking about maintaining what's there in the current code or maintaining what's actually built we would have to go with the current code consensus there gentlemen ladies so I think um from us internally staff doing our research the highest building that we've found on plans is the building that's up on the screens so that's 37 Feet the current is 34 so it's not much off so you think the 34 34 feet you say 40 or 34 yeah yeah around 34 correct okay correct okay along with that comment about the DFE if we're going to flood proof the first floor let's remove the DFE height okay so we would use ifre if it's utilized for commercial or whatever space other than parking other than parking if it's utilized then the height starts at grade level up gotcha okay we have that down perfect okay let's go to the next table we were pretty much in agreement with what the code States 34 fet above DFE we didn't have any issues no caveats or or anything so we're we thought that was okay okay great and we'll go around with setbacks after I know come on I got plays well the way it is right now personally I think the way it's written out and I don't think that's aggressive I don't think that's impeding I don't think it's obnoxious I think that height if you just went to where it is right there so 37 yeah Yeah couple feet no big deal I think if you just said nothing higher than what's over there now would be in character 37 which would be um existing all right next table want to so we agree that the boardwalk should be able to be rebuilt the way it sits today so where the code currently says 34t it could not be rebuilt to look the way it does today without allowing for the 37 and a half okay so we'll do yeah and we can do the same asteris because that's the same comment great okay so let's move on to setbacks maybe we can go backwards and Joe you're already there so on the setbacks I think the biggest um thought is whatever is there existing should be able to be rebuilt no more but without understanding exactly where the buildings are in compliance to to do a non something that's non-conforming but it's okay doesn't seem to be meeting the idea of zoning so that you can build so our conversation was the setback should be in line with what is existing okay great I would it if we were to put a caveat in our code and again the Planning and Zoning sometimes codes will read if built prior to this date then that that kind of clears up what's existing versus proposed to match Jason I don't know if we can discuss that yeah we could we could go down that too because we have our non-conforming section which really has some allowances for it built before the legal so anyway all right oh on the boardwalk what is on the boardwalk that's not existing that's not um to code or not to the setbacks um no no no everything that's there is existing yes right so how if something what were to completely redevelop demolish rebuild then it would have to meet the codes is that did that answer okay okay okay next table I think there's uh several structures along the board walk that don't have the five foot on one side side back um I think it's critical to uh whatever setbacks are existing on the properties you know want to make sure that whatever can be rebuilt can be rebuilt to those setbacks f that's zero and zero more more like zero and zero than zero and five of course okay you w put that in there all right is that microphone not working okay we can also just run this one okay yeah you're loud now we can hear you okay so since this is being recording I'll just um so anything above the DFE would not have any setback um but the ground floor would be 5T on the front which is along the road yes yes zero on the side okay yes and that's how we have it written in the code and fire of course looks at a commercial building so yes perfect in zero on the boardwalk I'm assuming okay okay perfect next table okay I'll help Mercy out put that under your other two okay and I I so I wrote that here as well as the other the sidewalks pedestrian safety overhang yeah it would can't to lever okay so possibly can't deliv to the property line on on the second floor second and anything above oh right now in our code um it is four feet in the rear like second second and above rear balconies and then the roof overhang can uh can't exceed 3 feet so we have a little bit of allowances but that's definitely something that we can address in the zoning because that whole section is in the Land Development regulations so we can make special exceptions for say Boardwalk or you know going forward exactly you don't want that going down on someone's head and we do have requirements now roof gutters and drain yes we have we have requirements for roof roof drains and gutters so like Marcy said all right and then we also have other so if there's anything else um that you're thinking of that we didn't capture in the height and setbacks uh we can go around so we don't have the other microphone right Joe okay it's gone okay so we only have one um it was there any other comments from this table any yes we have that okay great uh the second table did yall have anything else to add NOP all right this table third table are good over here okay great okay so we will go on to the next District then so we're moving on from boardwalk and we're going to shift to commercial core so right next to Boardwalk walk existing the front is none side is 10 ft on one side the rear is 25 ft and the height from the design flood elevation is 34t so just an example of what that could look like so we took two different types of lots because we know that we have some larger Lots we also have some smaller Lots in the area so that looks very different based on the lot size that you have so we have some examples of what that 34t looks like um we have flat roofs and then um we also have a gabled roof on the bottom right and then taking the highest building in that commercial core area and finding the design flood elevation and what's the highest so meas measuring from design flood elevation this is the garage which is the highest building down there uh is 55 ft and 6 and 1 12 in from design flood elevation and then just some pictures of what's built down there all right so are you ready to Talk Amongst yourselves and then um I'll just ask if we're ready and how many more minutes we think that um we need I'm going to give everybody 10 minutes and then we'll check in to see e e e e e e e e e e e e e e yes okay e spe than e right get [Music] 21 okay so 10 minutes has passed do we need another five another five that's good okay you think maybe when that sounds good you can answer something you spe 4 happy to would so bizar I don't get KN how for Grand gener not a do not a that [Music] why would you that's what they took the roof off kept everything else so didn't terrible I can't what they did I'm so angry over just understand how that's like a gold in [Music] efficiencies they're rented like they snowb houses right there efficiency oh we live and that's probably most that's my the biggest are all right the five minutes have gone and passed are we all ready to share are you ready Marcy okay and Joe has the microphone so I guess we'll start over we're just talking about height at this point um yeah you can perfect so we will start at this table so so so um we discussed and decided that our opinion was um less than a half acre 34 feet more than a half acre 55 feet from the DFE with setbacks based on the height and the acreage of building me so less than a half acre 34 ft more than a half acre 55 ft tied to the DFE setbacks based on the height of the building and the acreage so the idea is that nothing would be built taller than what is the tallest building existing what was less than a half acre again sorry 34 feet 34 than that and the setback she about well we're GNA go through setbacks after Okay so we're just we just got your right well that's okay you jumped the gun we're good okay next table I agree with the vice mayor I think uh nothing higher than what's there now the only issue I have with that 55 ft is today you have to access the roof or Mechanicals and things like that I'd like to see an exception for for elevator shafts because those go above yes and the and stairwells so I believe the 55 fet is is the right height and uh but you have to have room for the elevator you know the equipment to be up above there you have to have room for stairwell to get up to service mechanical equipment so we do have one exception in our code um that does allow for mechanical units um elevator shafts and stairs to exceed the height um no more than 20 feet above that but it's very minimal on what it it allows but elevator shafts stair stairwells um Steeples so architectural parapet walls walls exactly um we were okay with the uh the new 34ot limit um we we'd like to maintain the character of the place anything much higher we think to tracks the 34 feet across the board across the board yeah okay are we talking Set n we'll go through setbacks after okay next all right we're in agreement also at 34 foot okay uh all of the setbacks remain the same but keep in mind we would also want that l language in there about the DFE that if you're going to build out on the first floor you you lose the DFE no no we don't want that okay disregard that okay okay yeah so we want to encourage commercial perfect okay so we can because we'll do backwards yeah setbacks were remain the same remain the same across the board no matter what the acreage is okay makes it easy all right next table um we were thinking you really need setbacks front and rear since you can have commercial property in you know in the DF space um and we were looking at the 20 foot in the front and below below the DFE 20 feet in the front 10 foot in the rear but above the DF pretty much uh what is it 10 in the front Okay well there'd be you could have a patio I guess it would be zero for a patio above the DF zero setback so on the second floor it could go to the property line yes mhm but on walls about 10 foot so you could have a 10ft patio so with the front be 10 feet front would be 10 foot okay yeah I think those are well the front is 10et below 20 feet below the DF or 20 so in the front it would be a 10 foot setback and then on your second floor if there's the second floor it could go to the property line is that right uh no the front Below on Gray would be 20 foot is 20 on on the front 10 foot in the Rear Front 20 feet below DF above DFE we have zero for patios above DFE and 10 feet otherwise and then is side did you all talk about side too uh we did we we thought the 10 foot setback for the side to spine between businesses and basically we came up with that because of Waltz Waltz is currently there and you wouldn't want somebody building up you know to that property line on Waltz with a zero setback okay perfect okay we got it um once again uh when it comes to sidey guard setbacks I can appreciate what you're saying about Waltz and 10 feet from there as a as a minimum setback but you have to realize that there's 15 Lots there that are only 50 feet wide and what are you going to do have two 10ft setbacks and a 30 foot building and a 50ft setback in an area that's you want to be conducive for um commercial and so once again I think Max 10 on one side but you have to have that zero um lot line in order to have continuity along the commercial core there I think that's very important if if you look at look at that picture that's a great example of that's the parking garage on that that left side picture there these are let's assume that these were three different owners right that own those those lots together and if you were to put setbacks in and they're 50 foot wide Lots why do you want 20 feet in between it it ruins the whole character of the walk by for my opinion at least right so on that so I think I think it should be zero sides I think the front maybe five right and then just to if that you got to think they're 50 foot lots and 100 foot deep so if you take 20 foot fronts and what did you say for rear if you had 20 20 you're just shrinking it to like a little buildable spot I just think you lose and when we talk about character we all live here we all of us walk around John's Pass and it's nice to go from shop to shop to shop so I think if from a commercial core is commercial core and if every one of those individual Lots could be individually owned and so I think it should be and they may be you never know and then you I think you should have the ability to do that with firewalls in between for safety but have that be able to be just a continuation of a shopping district down there that's just that picture just brought that to mind yeah right but we got to look at it as either that or right now they individual Lots in there too hold on so what so what are we saying then you're saying zero side zero I think I think that photo tells tells the story of what we were thinking so the setback below the DFE you'd have space for just like in the traditional Village for the commercial shops to be able to put a table and to have pedestrian traffic that's not on the street above we're saying a setback of say 10 feet but not to the railing having a patio so you can have patios in the setback yeah patios would extend all the way to the property line but the actual wall structure would have a 10-ft setback that's and Main Street fi where you have multiple buildings so does this table did you want to change that to zero is that what I'm hearing okay you guys are side zero what did you say for yeah hey one one more comment while I still have the mic over here if we go back to the 34 foot recommendation from height let's let's think about that for a second so you have a ground level and then you have to have we need parking right so if you have ground level commercial and then you have one parking level what's the height of a reasonable parking garage retail level right you're going to have 12 feet right then you have what side high of a parking garage but by the time you have beams you have another 12 probably so you have room for one thing on top of one level of parking which the parking now counts as poor area ratio as well so you're going to have really nothing there I know the desire is to keep things low but that's just not a functional height right if you if you fun if you think about it you got to have ground level parking and then one level of something that's all you were able to do I think it renders a lot of those properties not usable but hotels tra respect your opinion but uh respectfully there's no property in John's Pass with the F and and the densities that were approved in John's Pass I can tell you I am the largest property owner in John's Pass there is no plan and no possibility ever to do 500 hotel rooms it's a a that's that's an incorrect statement but I can tell you that uh we just went through spring break there's traffic there's traffic it's done the little inconvenience during spring break bill I pull out of 150th Avenue at least 10 times a day during spring break is a little more difficult yeah yes do you have to be patient yes those tourists that are here spending their hard-earned dollars keep this city alive it's it it keeps the taxes low you put up with a little inconvenience for like today when you drive around today there's not traffic I had to get I had to get towed in to Tampa Thursday night and I sat from West Shore Boulevard to get to to to Fowler Avenue 50 minutes you want to talk about traffic that's traffic all right ding ding ding and again hey guys no we appreciate your conversation it's very important and at of respect for everybody's time let's let's get the conversation out for all the districts and then in followup if we want to have some more conversations agreed it is very important and you guys all have valid points but we're so happy to have all you guys here we want to respect your time and hear everybody's voices on these specific topics and then later on you guys can have that conversation so sorry about that okay so where were we got zero zero sides front y okay okay the same 55 DF height yeah yes we got yes we have that so we dis we discussed um zero setback and that zero side or zero zero side okay and that the setback for the height or for the buildings front and rear would be based off of height and acreage we also have a comment that we would like to go back on I think it came from this table in that if in the building of Redevelopment that could possibly happen taking a look at the roads and making the traffic one-way traffic which would create a better flow it would be better for pedestrians and it would also help with parking was what we discussed one okay one thing just to clar clarify so you can do a mix use building with residential Condominiums um in the commercial core District um you just have to stay within that f um and um late okay and then uh we can just go we got everything with setbacks we can go to the other so I have roads One Way potentially uh any other other that's not captured in height or setbacks think y we talking about um design guidelines and right the appearance a lot consensus at our table okay so I have in here design guidelines camouflage garages and keep that Main Street appearance or look okay we no other so if um does this table have any other um other things to talk about with this District that haven't been said no this table no over here we're good okay great yes okay so next moving on we're going across Gulf Boulevard to John's Pass Resort so and we have this on your sheets um so you can see there's different setbacks depending on the use of the of the land so if you're single family duplex Triplex you have a 20 foot set front setback multif family hotel or commercial is 25 fet it's a little bit larger side set back um this is dependent on the use as well as how big the lot is so if you're single family duplex Triplex and you have a lot that's less than 50 ft wide then your setbacks are 5 feet and 5 feet single family to Triplex if you have a lot that's wider than 50 fet um and if you're a multif family hotel or commercial it's 10 ft on so it's 10 ft on one side 10 ft on the other side and then on the rear is it's either 25 ft or if you're along the beach it's a Coastal Construction Control line the cccl and then the height from DFE is 44 feet and then there's a special requirements for hotels or multif family if it AB buts a residential then there's an additional 5 foot setback to account for required Landscaping so it can look a little different I did two examples here so taking this like larger lot over here in the John's Pass Resort we have a 25t set back in the front you're on the beach so you're right along that cccl line it's a little hard to see in this picture but it's that green that bright lime green line right here and then on this top example I have 10 feet 10 feet on the side so saying that they're not next to like a single family or residential property this one on the bottom they have 15 feet so that's where that additional 5 foot setback comes in and both of these properties are 44 feet from the design flood elevation you can see that they look a little different like we talked about before the uh the height of the ual floor can be dependent on what you want in the interior so here on the top I think these are about like 10 feet so a shorter floor um floor in height you might be able to get four stories but um if you're about like 13 14 feet in height you could get about three stories and then one example that we have down there I believe this is Beach Place uh from the design flood elevation to the top of the roof this is not count for the mechanical units which are allowed to exceed that it's 50 feet 8 in and a qu8 and a qu inches and then taking another lot in R3 uh which in this District because we do have these smaller Lots over here we do have single family duplexes triplexes so it's also we need to make sure that we account for these and that we really protect these properties as well what those setbacks look like you can see on this example here so it's a little harder in these smaller Lots up here between Gul Boulevard and Gulf Lane where there're about 85 ft by 40 so they're smaller lots and then you have that 25t setb 20 foot front setb and then 44 feet in height and five foot setbacks on the side just an example of what what that looks like there and then here's a picture of just what's in that District I said before it's really a variety of larger condos um and then we also have single family duplex Triplex so really keeping that mind the relationship of both of those so it's a little difficult um in that area all right so we will give 10 minutes I'll give you another notice we'll do five minutes after that and then we'll go around yeah that e count know spe right e oh e e for e for e just some bar of TR for e e spe okay guys we're gonna give you about five more minutes and then we're gonna go over the conversations I think Jenny's wrapping up one right now so e also here it is too EX now okay okay everyone so I know it's noon so we've lost some people that had to go uh we definitely want to get the input um that you're here for so we just want to see if we want to stop now or and then we can come back to another session and we'll definitely go through those other three first or if we just want to go through quickly um each district do is there any consistence so you'll have to leave yeah because it'll take about an hour yes we're doing two more so we're doing one next Thursday and then next Saturday um and then also feel free to email us um any input even if you go away you know today and something pops in your head tonight email us please come by talk to us we are we're here um so we can go through John's Pass Resort and then we can we can hit the other ones quickly if you can't make the other meetings um does that sound like a good good plan okay because I know some a lot of people have to leave yes I think what we'll do is is start with the other ones um and so we'll try and we'll try and rethink um the timing wise this is our first meeting the first of three so um you're kind of the guinea pigs of of how this is going to work so maybe we'll make the first presentation a little quicker um rethink that and then see what we can do with time limits so anyway so we can start with John's past Resort um Joe's over here so I guess we'll start on this table yeah we'll just do height setbacks and other every time so um we lost most of our table but the majority was our opinion was to go back back and follow somewhat of the same guideline as the commercial which is to base height on acreage lot size okay with a not to exceed we want what is existing to be able to be rebuilt but we wouldn't want anything larger and again we would want some sort of design standards okay he's sign standards in this area tooer than yeah we could say the highest building but I think it's around like 55 something like that um okay setbacks 44 sorry is that right yeah yeah that's right or did you want it or we can come back Jeff you're the only one okay okay you want to go to to Jeff I guess I offended the rest of my table I guess so up come on over I I think it's the same thing that we just heard from the other one I don't think there's anything crazy in this section just that higher the height of the highest buing is the easiest thing to go through and and as presented seems good okay perfect yeah so the highest is like 51 but um yeah we'll just have to check to what other plans we can find maybe taking measurements with Frank okay next okay we uh looked at this and we saw the code we saw what's existing and we don't have any problem with what's existing okay so existing you feel the same way with the setbacks as well exactly okay what's on the ground what's on the ground okay all right next table yes sir w we're all in agreement here we would like to keep everything the same with what the first table said about the design standards I think that is a positive that everybody could have some feedback with that but everything Remains the Same we're good with the height we're good with the setbacks and for like the design standard so I for like John um commercial core Boardwalk traditional Village I know that has like a very fisherman V Village Main Street character over here and maybe for this table as well what do you see that those design standards being do you want it to be more beachy Key West Field do you see it reflecting kind of the Fisherman's Village do you see a Mediterranean field any input T West beachy more of the old okay things that attract people to not run them away like a square building that has no feel to it kind of thing we want people to come okay is that what this table was thinking as well like that beachy okay great um and who did we not get with setbacks we didn't get the table of setbacks we want the setbacks to be tied again to the land area okay okay did I miss anybody with setbacks okay like we missed okay remain the same same okay remain the same okay great yeah okay so we'll do the next one we'll I guess just try and do this quickly um and then also if you're able to attend the other and you want to attend the other workshops please please join we'd love to have you so low intensity mixed use this is the same zoning category as what we just saw so the same setbacks are written in the code in this area this is Pelican Lane so you have a mix of single family and then those older Beach cottages back there so just a very similar example that you saw before since it's the same zoning District right now and then the highest is 44 feet which is in the code then just some pictures of what's there right now okay and do we just want to just start talking about this out loud so we can yeah I don't want to lose lose people um I don't know I guess yeah if anybody has input on on what you think on Pelican Lane setbacks uh are the same as the last zoning District it's the same zoning District um currently yes current setbacks for new new construction on P the current setbacks so if you're single family duplex Triplex it's 20 ft in the front if you're multif family Hotel commercial it's 25 ft so a little bit more uh side yard setbacks depends on the lot width as well as the use so if you're single family to Triplex you're on a lot that's less than 50 feet you're going to have five feet on five foot on what this side five foot on this side no it it's it's quite small you have these large builds next builds so something Lar larger than 5T being right next to it and a lot of those lots are I think they're like 40 by 100 yeah 40 by 100 feet so they're pretty small so in like R R1 more residential R1 and R2 believe R1 is is it yeah 7 and A2 um I think it's like seven and eight on one you know seven feet on one side 8 feet on the other something like that and then R2 depends on your lot width as well so maybe something closer to that R1 so maybe seven feet on one side eight on the other seven and five something like that yeah yeah yes we require the gutters on on new new construction so larger setbacks but then still uh maybe increased setbacks if it's a wider lot as well okay any other anything else about height setbacks or other things seeing nothing do we just want to go to the next next one just so we can hit every character District does that sound good okay uh we have traditional Village okay so this is a speed rounds um so we're going to traditional Village so you can see up here so your Main Street characters we jumping back to that C1 zoning District um that had the front no setback on the front um side is 10 feet on one side in rear 25 feet the height from DFE so like the second floor is 34 feet up so just an example of what that could look like so you can see with the height what we talked about before it really varies on how big those floors are so maybe potentially you could get three over the ground floor or you get two with a higher um depends on the roof has a lot of things that it depends on but you see that this is the same height um as you can see a lot of these slots are all o 40 by 100 some of them are larger they're Consolidated like like these three and then an example of what we could find um in our records of the highest I believe that is 31 feet one inches one and 3/4 inches and that is that Elevator Shaft um by the the brewery that building yes right right here a mad beach so this is 30 wait I just say 31 and the current codes allow 34 um I would say almost all of them don't meet it because if you just looking at these pictures most of these are lot line to lot line um in the rear it it varies but most of them don't even meet their rear in the rear most of them there's parking across the rear of the building yes and is that considered um I'm not quite sure how far back the property line goes from the end of the building to the street as to whether or not that parking belongs to the a lot of them are parking in the right of way correct yes so um I would think that we would want that to come in more into conforming to what is there because in the event of Redevelopment or catastrophe um what I've heard is no one would want to see anything built back differently than what is currently there so um modifying the setbacks to match what is there as well as design standards that would require that Main Street fishing and the setbacks for the side the buildings are boom boom boom there's no way you're going have any setback you're G to have the firewall yes right and the height I think the Height's fine um 34 yeah I think it's interesting that it's 34 and the tallest is 31 but yeah um yeah it's okay that's fine any other comments or do people agree with that yes yes oh yes odly enough I'm having my own roof done now so I'm thinking about these buildings with the firewall and so are they going to have to have gutters because we're thinking about water drainage into the street down to our neighborhood and all of the flooding that's happening like you know behind that hotel call now it changed names two or three times that's the Mexican restaurant in the front we're all behind that so you know there's been a lot of flooding after the storm so and I think of the rooftops of these buildings that are you know just have a firewall or the roofs going to be separate or we always look at um gutter systems drainage anytime any development comes in Marcy Marcy knows more about this than than I do so she might be able to talk a little bit better about it do you want to use the microphone mercy so the goal would be like in a situation like this where you have like you know flow to the front flow to the back you would have the gutters that run parallel to that and capture that and the first opportunity it gets it'll then have the gutter down spout to it so if you have contiguous properties that touch each other they will be required to join together and make sure that the gutter systems work yeah to somewhere wherever they drink I don't know that's correct we try to it depends on where it's located if we can cap you know how we however we can capture it and then have it bubble off and overflow into the the drain system and things like that we do our very best it is hard when it gets a little more you know congested but we we we do have rules around that do we want to put that in other just drainage and just so we can keep that in mind okay anything correct that's the max does that include the elevators and everything that go um the maximum height height right now is 34 feet it's a traditional Village you might be looking Trad yeah you went back to traditional so it's 34 feet and um like a lot of these buildings were built before the code so we don't have a lot of plans um in our files but one of the more recent things that we do have is that Elevator Shaft which appears to be one of the highest um things on that on that road and that one was 31 ft from design flood elevation so it's in line with that um height requirements now 34 feet from ground level not from DFE or anything like that um 34 feet so we measure everything from that design flood elevation yeah so so it needs to be lower then that um because what what we're what we're suggesting is that if you want to go back to existing go with what's there now you're going to have commercial buildings on the ground floor you're going to be waterproof so the maximum from ground to the top of the roof would be 34 feet we're not say we're not saying 34 feet plus above 14 elevation and the the measurement that I was telling you before with the Elevator Shaft you know with mad M Brewing that's 31 above DFE so it's um what 39 is that right over yeah a little over yeah 39 feet um from grade but looking at the buildings down there now I don't think you have any building with the roof line that where meet Beach that exceeds right now 30t 31 the Elevator Shaft is 31 so forget about buildings down there yeah yeah no just to have like a reference you know yeah this is 31 above then this could be like right around 3 exactly I mean I've been down there trying to measure yeah that's what I'm it's just hard because we don't have plans of a lot of these to have the actual want to make sure we're all on the same page here for for our group we've talked about that the maximum height would be no more than 30t 30 feet from ground up to the pitch of the roof yes so then you what would happen is you would lose like seven feet so you're knocking it down if we take it from grade to 34 you're going to end up here so you do end up losing you probably lose that because if you're at 31 feet from design flood elevation and you want to take it down you don't get that backed in like just like ground Flo commercial one floor space above it and then to the 34t but that could be or whatever because it seems like the 34 feet would get more flexibility but you're worried about having build yeah I I mean talking talking to tourists that are coming in the area here and some of my neighbors I mean you're hearing that people want to buil back in existing you know with with two stories not not going up to a third story or anything like that I wonder if we could write it something like 34 feet of DFE but only can't exceed more than two floors from grade so then you won't lose any of these architectural features um or areas like over here so kind of Encompass or something like that when you're saying 34 feet uh but can't be it can't be three stories well yeah but you're raising them to 44 48t so I'm maybe I'm confused so right now this is as measured from design FL elevation is a little over 31 feet the top of this as measured from design flood elevation you're saying you want to measure it from all the way down here but if you do that to 34 feet I'm saying you truncate the building then this right here represents 31 ft from design flood elevation let's say let's say you have 14 ft for each floor you're only at 28 ft from ground level and then you got your pitch so you're at 35 feet I don't see how you can say that that's 31 feet from from DFE it can't be it can't be the highest level you're between floors we're talking about 14 feet then you're talking 28 feet so you're talking height versus elevation so right now this may be an elevation of six right so if that's at an ele of six then your designed flood elevation yeah so if you're finished floor elevation right here where you're walking on the sidewalk is six BFE is 10 feet so that's only four feet high and then your DFE is at 14 foot elevation from your six feet so then from the design flood elevation which is only like you know s feet above or from that to there so I think that's where it's getting a little confusing is elevation versus height measurements exactly so so if you're already walking on the sidewalk and you're at an elevation of six feet and your designed flood elevations at 14 that's where that comes in so then you're only looking at eight feet right before I'm at design flood elevation then from there we measure the height so we can get there I just want to make sure we're talking the same thing so even at 34 feet above design flood elevation you're only a few more feet higher than than the the existing Tower there does that make sense because I think you're thinking zero so you're assuming this is zero then we go up 14 feet then we go up here but this isn't zero this is an elevation of six is is estimated so so what's the flood level there right base flood um it's so the base flood is 10 10 feet El so it's be right here standing on that side right then you got four board feet above that then yeah I understand what you're saying yeah we just want to make sure we're getting just sounds like you're making the building higher than what than what's [Music] there yeah yeah so looking at the sheet you can kind of see so it looks like it looks like the actual top of the roof exceeds is slightly um about the same maybe a little bit more it's close to it so it looks like it's um is that 30 it looks 3733 oh I can't zoom up on that uh thinking it was a touch screen and and I and I understand you you will have the exception for the stairwell or for an elevator I understand that that but I'm saying overall to me it would seem that you would want to go ahead and keep everything at about that same height with that 34 so it looks like the Elevator Shaft um is 39 Feet 2 in from grade yeah so it's the same we could specify in there no more than two stories two occupiable stories okay it's yeah if we have height and can exceed two stories something like that fortunately stories defined in the Florida building code so we would follow the definition of a story in a fled building code and we could limit a story to 14 yeah exactly yes talk you're talking traditional vage yes traditional Village does not only Encompass that section that we're looking at there is a whole piie shaped area that is traditional Village that if you are going to say you can only go two stories you are limiting what would be built on that triangle and I know that there has been some discussion about putting a parking garage on that triangle incorporating it with retail so I don't know that I would sign up for putting in writing you can I'm okay with saying the height but to specify what somebody who owns a piece of property how many stories they can put on it within that allowable height I don't think that that would be fair to the owner or you could also do something like we've done in the other District something with you know if you have this amount of acreage then maybe you could go a little higher right obviously we don't want somebody to you know buy up the whole I'm not advocating height all I'm advocating is if we say this is the height if I don't I think that based off what we have and looking at the design flood elevation and when you look at that from where the height is being measured from I mean the whole idea is to keep the village in the aesthetic of the village but there is more to it than just that one retail section that you walk on that's all I'm thinking so I I have a idea how about on like we either tie it to lot size where let's say you have half at least half an acre which I'll have to measure the triangle but it it should be close to that can get to the 34 ft above DF Fe and if you have less than half an acre you are restricted to the uh two floors of of usable commercial air conditioned space or you could do ground floor commercial with condo or temporary lodging above it but only just like two floors 45 units per acre which is a reduction from the previous US oh like one rental unit yeah but um compared to pre we did actually reduce the when the land use was done we did reduce the density from 60 to 45 because we this area is primarily commercial and we and we want to incentivize keeping the ground floor commercial and that kind of like Village type area so we we were very specific in the way we set it up to to do that and in the zoning right now you have to have ground floor commercial we would keep something like that just so you don't kill that commercial Main Street type area I think if you want to keep that commercial Main Street area and make this feel like a village go back to what Villages really are you have ground level shop right now we have second level shops and if you have 34 feet let a guy live on above it if they want it to or have a unit above that I don't think that hurts anybody at the 34 foot what does hurt I think is a why would you put a 10- foot side setback in buildings that are on 30 foot Lots next to each other it doesn't make any sense I think should be no on that from from a functional perspective an Aesthetics perspective looking down that street I don't think setback side setback should be part of that great okay any other thing or should we go to the next yes oh we have to check check by allowing I don't need that I'm just gonna put design oh okay and then I'll definitely put design guidelines okay design guidelines too okay perfect okay um did we have one other yes last but not least uh we had the same concern about the side setback it doesn't make any sense okay um other other than that it's fine great thank you okay so I'm going to move on to transitional is this the last one I think so okay last one transitional is a mesh of a lot of different zoning categories in our current zoning code so everything on the west side so the beach side is R3 and then everything on the the east side where madira Bay is is a mix of uh there's one lot that's R2 and then we have a few C3 and C4 zoning so that's why you see four different zoning codes it can be a little tricky um let's see so what we haven't we've seen R3 zoning so everything along the beach side that's all R3 zoning on the other side what you haven't seen today is that C4 and C3 zoning they're very similar front is 25 ft side is the minimum is 10 feet and then if you're over I think it's 120 feet or 100 feet um then we go with 33% of the lot width um and then rear is c4 is 18 feet that's from the back of the seaw wall so the water facing side of the seaw wall if you're in C3 then it's 10 that's really where you see some difference um in the height in C4 is 34 feet and the height and C3 depends on the use so if it's commercial it's 34 if it's multif family or hotel then it's 44 and then we do have one existing PD zoning and that is Barefoot Beach and so PD is basically asking for different allowances um and then you have a development agreement but we we have just one PD zonings um so what does C3 and C4 look like uh very similar as you can see from this slide 44 feet 34 to 44 feet above design flood elevation since you have commercial uh you can blood prooof the ground floor and here are the setbacks um R3 you've seen that before or um just an example of a lot of those lots are smaller so I grabbed a smaller example I think the next page I have bigger ones um then R2 looks somewhat similar to it so the front yard is 20 feet side yard is 5 to 12 feet uh rear yard is 25t and the height is 40 feet not 40 close to 44 but not 44 um and the one R2 law is right over here so there's only one of those r two lots just to keep in mind um and then here's an example of that R3 that beach side um on go Boulevard on a larger lot so kind of what that looks like and then one of the highest buildings um which was a PD so that is 63 feet 7 in from design flood elevation I think madira Bay is might be a I think it's a little taller than than Barefoot be but they're pretty close to to each other madira bay was actually a variance and our variance section has changed since then so now we would not allow that height so um of what is in this um this now outside of the two exceptions the PD and the variance is every other build buing conforming to current code a time share building either was it like All Seasons or something that that's above that 44 feet DF but I I wasn't able to because isn't it five five floors over parking I think that's probably something likeif 50 did we find plans for that one I can't remember so trying to find plans for everything I think that's the only other one and that and that goes back to to the idea of H requiring at least half an acre to get to some of those Heights because there's not any vacant most of the Lots down there are very tiny um so that'd be a way to kind of Encompass what's been built um but make make sure on the smaller lots that that we don't only either be smaller multif family or single family protecting those so the one thing that I've heard today that strikes me as um very important or or stands out is that tying the acreage to a lot of what is allowed or not allowed is really key in encompassing what is already built yes um and I'm not I'm not advocating that I would think we should change the code to allow the buildings to meet the height of the plan development or the variance but I I would advocate for having the code to comply for what is there existing based off of acreage for setbacks and what you can build and height and all of that okay it's great so in this transitional District the idea was to really you know you have John's Pass Resort and you have the village and then going back down to what's allowed now that was that was the idea of this transitional District that's why it's called that um to go back down and obviously we have some of the highest buildings in this so yeah staff definitely agrees of not making very tall tall buildings no 129 this like yeah it's like this which yeah lives close to that or in it so then what would be your opinion on the current code not talking about let's not talk about I mean about the three exceptions but just as a general for how you feel about your community because we can't change the three that are there you can obviously and when they were going to build that I'm going to give you some history when they were going to build that they had moved the building Barefoot yes they had moved the building to the South so it was 10 ft next to a residential home there and the reason they did that is they have a four-story building in front of them and they move that they own the motel and the reason they moved it is so they had more rooms to look at the Gulf so they get higher prices for their condo and the de Bay and our residents in our neighborhood were going to go ahead and take them the court and sue them over that issue because it wasn't done with urban planner the way it should have been and we got them to finally move it back 60 to 70 feet to where it's at now so and then they changed their business plan and change from condos and they said well we're going to keep it as Motel so what was brought to the city is not what finally wound up so that's that's the problem with plan developments and that's the problem that you're going to have if you keep certain Heights like that in here the other thing you're talking about when you're talking about size of property you got these 12T monstrosities out here when you come off 150th and the thought was we go ahead and allow them to go up higher because they'll come in and you have more visibility out to the beach you'll never see the beach because they put up two stories of parking with the big ramp so you know what's always been salt no on Gul Boulevard coming off 150 at those two TW 12 story buildings there so that's the other thing that you got to think about when you're talking about these design Heights will allow them to go higher because we'll bring them in and it's going to allow more visibility the beach you can't see the beach with all the dunes and everything and and whatever is going to be put there for parking garages athe of the building I think that height matters but how the building looks is a should be a much greater concern which is what we have incorporated into the activity center um design standards so that you keep the look the height is always going to be I can't even I'm not a developer I don't begin to understand it I understand that I have been shown developments that if they had been two stories taller and thinner that you would have had a lot more visual around the buildings for the people across the street for the light to come through the buildings so in my unprofessional mind that seems like such a better option where 14 feet doesn't seem or 20 20 more feet visually doesn't seem as much of a issue as getting a skinnier building that does allow the light you can see around that's all and I'm only basing that off of when I've been in other cities looking at the buildings and had buildings pointed out in developments but I for one and much more keen on the exterior of the building you also have to think about that this is a residential area no no no I'm I'm no I'm coming back coming back to a point is that Barefoot Beach wanted to go ahead and have a rooftop bar up there and things like that so taller buildings they want rooftop bars which don't is not conducive to a neighborhood residential neighborhood I understand that that wasn't my point so the reason I said let's exclude the three exceptions is because I was asking take those three out because they're there we can't change that what can we do what is there is what is there conforming to keep the code to this code that is existing because that is residential and the residents I would think would want to keep that well aesthetic one other thing is this plan development shouldn't have been built there there were no there were no buildings West on the West Side the west side of Gulf Boulevard that became tall buildings like that that was allowed as a plan development madira Bay is over on east side of Gulf Boulevard entirely different and so what if you if you keep it with the existing code or you're going to have plan development come in there you're going to have a wall of buildings on the west side of Gulf Boulevard where right now the taller buildings are west of Gulf Lane that are on the beach side but plan development a developer could come in on any property in madira beach and apply for a plan development with or without the code changing they can apply for it um I don't that's not what I'm I'm trying to discuss because I don't feel like today or in writing this you have a control over that but what we can control or what we can discuss is what are the standards for so what I'm again going back to history with dwani when we first had the coat here 60 ft was the tallest you could have at buildings condos then they lowered the the height down and I'm talking from ground level up was 60 ft and then they they lowered it down to where Barefoot Beach the motel side has parking underneath and three stories so that basically you were at 44t or something like that so what you have now is being proposed with current height is 44 feet with 14 for 14 feet with the board feet and the uh DFE so you're looking at 58 feet there that's what's existing in our code currently correct this is what's existing so our codes right now all depends on what lot you're talking about R3 the height from DF is 44 feet that's what is allowed right so that's what that's what I was talking about what's it I'm not talking about the highest building I'm talking about what's in our code I understand is that what is existing besides Barefoot besides those three so what is existing built with exception of the three properties that got whatever exceptions that are already done we can't change that but does the existing code meet what is built there that's all I was asking yes and we'll have to do a little bit of research and digging to see if we can't find the plans then we'll definitely go out there and measure but I think it's a what probably around like 50 feet DF so very close to that that's what we think yeah anything oh yes do PD override city code um PD is like a almost like another zoning District comply it has to comply with the land use so like we were talking about before we have three different things so we have the counties land use we have land use here that's with our comprehensive plan and then we have the zoning so it's basically like a rezone to PD so so it's locked to whatever the density intensity and uses are for that land use so they can so basically the PD the only thing they can really change is height and set back so um yeah so like for example meet the floor area ratio so the ratio best way to imagine it is your lot area and the ratio between that and like your air condition space that's the easiest way to imagine it the other thing we did for certain temporary lodging uses we we adopted the County's criteria that's stricter um that requires the count the parking garage for certain scenarios that require a development agreement which we didn't have previously in our in our code so we we tried to make sure um that like a for certain tempor that they'd have to mitigate more and have to justify it more and it have to go through the board approval because at the end of the day the the the board our board has final say over it so if they don't like what's being proposed they can reject it with the PD you have to do neighborhood Workshop you have to go to um Planning Commission and then two readings at the Board of Commissioners okay the caveo on PD is that um it's been violated uh numerous times by the current commission the previous Commissions in terms of what could be built according to the code and there are numerous examples of this along 150th Avenue and other places so the PD has been uh enabled developers to build pretty much whatever they want without any constraints by the planning board without any constraints by the um Board of Commissioners and with without competence uh input by the planning officials in the city the city staff and the city staff sitting here so today we're not really discussing PDS we're really discussing on the zoning in these areas no but I do think we should talk about reality and not some hypothetical imagin ideas exactly my point okay we're going let's go back to transitional period yeah yeah let's just let's just go back to the point because to keep it on topic and we're already you clear hour over yeah yeah okay all right yes thank you everybody for attending I think this was great we got a lot of great feedback and like I said if you think of something in the night or the next few days please feel free to email us send it over to us and leave your worksheets behind please