e call yep all right ladies and gentlemen we'll call this meeting of the madir beach Planning Commission uh to order it is 6 o00 on the money please call the rooll chairman w present commissioner gahi present commissioner Dylan here commissioner Noble commissioner Connelly here commissioner Mah commissioner lar here all right looks like we've got a quorum next item on the agenda is public comment uh public participation of course is encouraged all our meetings if you're addressing the Planning Commission please step up to the podium state your name and your address for the record please limit your comments to 3 minutes please don't include any item on the agenda as uh your comment we will have time for that when we hit that agenda item however it should be noted that an agenda item was pulled so if you have a comment on that um please feel free to do it now during public comments but that agenda item has been pulled and that was the Redevelopment for uh 1311 74 Street public uh comments are welcome and I'm welcomeing to step forward at this point went through all that for nothing okay all right she does she will throw things at me if I don't do that so thank you uh our next item is the approval of the minutes I would like a motion if you so please to approve the minutes from last month's meeting I make a motion to approv the minutes as stated from last month I second it all right we got a motion in a second anybody offering up any corrections we good to go please call the rooll can commissioner Dylan yes commissioner Connelly yes commissioner Laro yes commissioner gaki yes chairman wof yes all right the minutes are approved thank you very much uh so having that application for um 1311 74 Street poll that means we have no new business I see no old business this should be a pretty short meeting if Jenny has anything to do with it uh uh so our administrator or staff presentation is item 7A John's Pass Village zoning all right I'll take it away thank you um so on March 13 um it's a few weeks ago the boc approved adopting ordinance 20231 and 20232 which basically approved the special area plan for John's P Village activity center and then changed our map our future land use map to incorporate that Activity Center so now we have an activity center The johnb Village Activity Center we have that the county level we have that locally now the next step in this is the zoning so that's what we're going to start talking about today um I we've had a little bit of discussion on that before a little bit of um of a presentation so um I have in your packet I'll pull it up here too there kind of a starting point of uh we wanted to bring up because we figured these are going to be the Hot Topics the setbacks and the height so we've included on page 20 starting at page 20 of the packet um we have the character districts uh the existing zoning category existing height and that's where we measure it from design flood elevation a easiest way to imagine that is the second floor of a building and then on the ground highest building these are measured from grade so that can be a little tricky to imagine um let me make this a little bigger realize it was so small up there and then the proposed height just kind of what we internally have talked about uh we really just wanted to have like a kickoff um area so we can start discussing this um so it's not just freefor all we can see your input um we'll also have three public meetings we'll have one on April the 13th which is the Saturday from 10 to noon we'll have one on April the 18th which is a Thursday 10 to noon and then a third public workshop on the 20th 1 to3 so the 13th the 18th those are both 10 to noon and then the 20th which is a Saturday 1 to 3 so that'll be after the hurricane Expo on that same day on the 20th uh and we are mailing out postcards to every single resident so what we have in your packet we have the height and then we also have in here the setbacks did very some something very similar to the height uh we have character District zoning category existing setbacks on the ground and where you see um like no no numbers that's where we're still collecting data and then proposed setbacks and anywhere in the red on both of these sheets that's where we see any changes Jenny can I ask you a quick question back up to the first table you showed do we have never mind I already answered my question withdrawn okay ask we also have a site plan of existing let me sorry about that we also have a site plan of an existing structure down there uh that shows the height and the setbacks um that we wanted to show an example of why we we proposed the 60 feet because there are a few six and seven story buildings mixed in down there and and multiple of the character districts including because the parking garage down there is is H six uh six floors of parking um many of the condo buildings are are six stories and then a like a Barefoot Beach Club and I think madira Bay each have think seven seven stories but one has uh just one ground floor Park and then the mider Bay buildings has two floors of parking mm which is which we have right here so this oh this is madir Bay that seven stories um and then the six stories I think that was Barefoot Beach so I don't know if we want to go to the example first or if we just want to dive in to I guess we can go to the example kind of show you where that design flood Elation where we calculate the height in our code and in the past depends on when it was built um some of them I think Barefoot Beach Club it their PD references the Bas flood elevation not design flood elevation of where they calculated the height um before that there sometimes they calculated from the ground so it wasn't consistent now it's consistent in how we measure the height it's always design flood elevation which is the base flood elevation plus a freeboard which 4 feet is that 2T freeboard we have four feet we used to be two now we're four was a back in 2021 I believe so here's Barefoot so this is to give you an example of where we measure the height so right here is 4T F feet above base flood elevation uh which now is the design flood elevation this is where the first you know above above parking and above what's uh flood proofed so you see it's second story so that's really where we start measuring the height so as you can see from DFE then we measure to the first occupied um height to the top of the last occupied floor that's really the height and there is a section in our code me scroll back where there's certain exceptions to the height so chimney cooling towers elevators fire Towers stairways architectural features those can exceed that height um it can't not habitable space yeah so it can't be over 20 feet of what the height is so also keep that in mind when we're talking about height so if we go back to Barefoot we can see okay well this is where we would measure the height here's the design flood elevation so we're starting here and we go up okay you see this is the this is air conditioned area so okay that's where we are measuring the height from there to there and then all of this architectural features three tops of buildings um we wouldn't count that in the height but Jenny one question um sometimes you have flat roof sometimes you have hip roof so how do you do you go to the center to the middle of hip roof or it's the eve line isn't it no there's I think it's like R2 R1 that talks about the eve and then talks about the top of the roof I think that's the only area that does is that right Mercy yeah and we typically would measure to if it's habitable space we would measure to the peak of that if it's your home and you're living in that floor we'd measure to the peak of that roof but if it's the top of the Elevator Shaft then that that's when you kind of get that extra 20 foot the bonus yeah and we also have pitch regulations on the roof I heard Jenny talk about occupied floor so for us like if it that if there's an area above that's AC seed then we we would measure to that so if they're they've enclosed an area and it's air conditioned then we we would count that in this particular case so yeah yeah that's is isn't that the um building that's kind of under dispute that they're trying to put a restaurant up there and have all kinds of people they were trying to get an alcohol license and then that was pulled it was a few months ago maybe end of last year um but yeah this is like the rooftop area that is enclosed but then over here just so like Marcy was saying if it's the top of an elevator stairways um things of that nature um the things that are listed in this exceptions to the height regulations that's that's what we wouldn't count so so if they did want to have let's say not this particular one but just a building in general wanted to have a restaurant or bra on top and they had an enclosed area the height of that would be what we' go off of so they wouldn't just get to throw it up there and not have it in included in the height we would look at that so once they start to get to the roof area and utilizing that we're very particular kind of how we Tred to to guide them through that through Lessons Learned okay so then that would be would that be considered another floor or roof space I think I think that's where it gets tricky and that's why in all of our zoning districts we've really referred back to just the heightened feet and not oh you can have X amount of floors over over parking um because there can be a discussion and dispute over well what's technically a floor or a story um and our code isn't very clear I think it's with floor floor right um it it's really not clear in our code um on those definitions so that's why we've you know starting years ago that we just really just went with okay we're just going to go with feet you know how many feet above the DFE instead of you can have three floors over parking cuz then you're how big are the floor is going to be what do you consider a floor are you going to have rooftop do we consider that a floor typically yes um depends on on what it's utilized for um so that's why we just are going with feet we're going to continue doing that so is that building an oops because as I'm looking that would be John's Pass Resort area that was 44t from DFE uh this is a PD so they went they reson it to a plan development so they asked for additional height um they're within their height that was approved okay see and I think that would be a very good example for the people to realize that that's how you can get higher floors it wasn't originally approved under our normal standards and I think that's where a lot of the people are like so if you're changing it from 44 feet to 60 feet and you're ft plus DFE so you're basically potentially 74 feet and that's where you know when I was here the other day it's just like it I mean you know I consider myself pretty knowledgeable but I didn't really know what DFE was and the hard to imagine to and and the DFE I I would say that would you'd need to get kind of an idea of what the ground elevations are in those areas so that we so that the people know what they're getting so like in in terms of if if it's you know at two foot if the elevations around there are two foot well okay so the first floor has got to be at you know 12 feet above that to get the DFE so you're so you're 12 feet there and then another 70 feet so now another 60 ft so your total is 70 72 feet and that's where I had wondered the other day in terms of trying to make it you know it's a kiss principle keep it simple stupid you know so um just so that people have the idea and like I said that's an example but that example was done through a PD but then you've also got this the one right across the street which I guess was that a PD also variances it actually was done with variances yeah which is different as well I guess it's kind of hard because we're looking at uh we've been trying to look for site plans and building plans but a lot of these buildings are older so we don't have all the plans um Barefoot Beach is a newer one so we have those plans it's very clearly indicated on the heights so that's why it's one of the examples so there there are a lot of condo buildings that were built in the 70s and early 80s that are five stories over parking or I guess six floors that currently don't meet our height limit um of 44 feet above DFE so that's one of the reasons one of the goals of this was to make things conforming so to legalize these existing buildings also because we don't want to allow for additional height but we want to make sure that everyone is accounted for and that within a reasonable degree that things are now brought to because because it's kind of weird back in they cut the height because it seems kind of unfair that some Property Owners got taller and then other people that didn't build before that was implemented now lost like poent like probably like two stories so this is basically fixing a previous mistake that that probably shouldn't have happened back then and uh the other limits we want to include though is requiring a certain amount of land to allow for that height um um most of the buildings that are this height usually have at least half an acre or closer to an acre so potentially we could require at least half an acre of land to allow for that height we could require additional setbacks so there's ways to mitigate it especially because there there are some single family homes mixed in there so we don't want super tall buildings right next to people's houses so requiring additional setback or a certain amount of land or Landscaping would be important good stuff so I have a I have a question for Jenny sorry um you had mentioned that the top floor could be occupied for like a restaurant right in some cases yeah well it depends on the zoning and right so my question is as far as floor area ratio would you include that top level as your floor area ratio yes yes would okay all rightless of it's open and doesn't meet the definition of our gross floor area but something like in Barefoot Beach where it's enclosed yes that would I see we would so if it's open to air it's not included in your floor area ratio even though they can use it for like a bar yes if it was completely open if they just had seats out there it's completely open okay thank you so I have a question real quick um kind of to Chuck's point and as we have these meetings coming up with the public um you know if there's a way to because even myself when you say five stories to your point sometimes that doesn't mean 50 feet sometimes it means 60 sometimes it means you know so if there's a way and I I think Andrew mentioned it earlier where you have a plan that kind of shows like okay we have this plan plan which shows our zoning right but that kind of gives an overlay of the actual feet above grade or above DFE for the existing structures I don't I mean that could be a kind of a task but that way people know like okay this structure that I'm used to seeing is 40t above DFE or 60 feet above DFE I don't know I feel like that you know so so will you pull up that the one we just were showing out of curiosity I'm just want to make sure I understand so on this one that's kind of why I tried to grab this one is to show the height of the actual building above would you like to see it differently is that what you're saying no well I'm saying yeah so so I guess what I'm saying is in in like plan view so like over top of this where it's like okay like I know like this property here is okay 40 feet above DFE this property is 60 feet above DF because people drive by it every day and have it okay in their brain hey the Bubba Gump building is okay that one's 60 feet above DFE otherwise it's hard to like mentally think about what is what because like I said you could say five stories six stories and it just doesn't mean anything so and then to Andrew's point with just things that are already non-conforming it kind of shows hey like these things exist already it just helps explain it a little bit better um otherwise everyone's just going to get I don't know could get really I guess in a way it's kind of like how we can sell it that we've accepted it and or like you said you know if you point out okay so bubble gumps is this High the um parking garage is this high and and um just to Define some of the areas within the areas so we can say oh absolutely so what you like to see with this one is us to point to the map and say in Barefoot Beach is located here this is the height above DFE this is the picture of the front okay right so if I if I were looking at this map from this I could I could very clearly Define in my brain that the transition of height between the transitional area which is this to the core to the boardwalk is like oh I'm seeing this kind of go from 80 feet to 40 feet to 60 feet so because in my brain right is you're the activity center is kind of bookended by this which is very tall and the uh compared to what's normally in mad beach and the boardwalk so when you can see okay so the bounds of this is 60 ft to 60t and anything in between that like I don't know I just I feel like it would help explain expl it or show it to people um we've been trying to find older site plans of some of those those six-story condo buildings and it's been um we'll keep looking because that that's one of the reasons why not all those existing ones were shown in feet because if it's like newer plans that have been done last 10 years or so we we have those usually on record and they're easy to find but some of these buildings were built 40 plus years ago um would you want a map showing existing Heights that we can find versus proposed like have two maps I guess well I think I think if you have the existing Heights so people can understand like well the proposed height is here is 50 feet and the current things are 30 feet like you know like um I don't know if we need a proposed map we just just existing would be ideal and maybe if you pulled one building out of each character District sure that said like find the tallest building in each character District because that's going to be the concern right is the overall height so if you pull building out of each one of the potential character districts and say this is the tallest building here it's barefoot Beach Club and and we won't be going that high or we will whatever the number is right and then maybe the other district is is the parking garage right and so this is the the tallest building there and it will be compared to that it's this that way you don't have to try and get you know from uh crimson and madir Norte and all you know you don't have to get every building but get a sampling one the worst one or the highest one from each yeah or just in a general area I mean if you can get just whatever you can get and and if you do it in terms of if you do it in terms of DFE so people so you don't have to think about what DFE is you just say this is 50 F feet above DFE and I think people need a point of reference yeah right just get multiple points of reference from all the different districts whatever you can and I think on a site plan would be helpful somebody sees 60 feet they're you know they're going to run out their hair on fire um so if you can get it to compare to something that's already there at least it gives like okay I like I can see that now you know this is 80 ft or whatever it is from the ground we're talking about 802 so that's a little easier to swallow and they say well what we're proposing is 60t okay cool now I get it right it's not going to be a I I think everybody's worried that we're going to be driving down a canyon on a Gulf Boulevard right and nobody wants that so if if we've got to show that that's not the intent or the spirit of what's trying to be accomplished and you can do that by giving a frame of reference I think and and that's kind of the direction I was headed this was one of the easiest ones to kind of grab and start so wanted to definitely get your your feedback on what you thought was helpful um to Andrew's point we we're trying to pull some of the site plans so I think the one thing we're missing here though is tying this location into the site plan so that you can easily say Okay location a Barefoot Beach this High location B in this new district is this building so we we can do that so that's exactly kind of the feedback we were looking for from sharing this with you tonight so this is perfect we did we did try to keep the Heights on certain districts like boardwalk and the low intensity mixt use and traditional Village um lower to make sure not to block any views or sure change so we we really tried to make sure the Village area stayed the same and that the heights proposed in John's Pass Resort and the transitional match the existing uh condo and temporary lodging buildings are currently there but uh we can definitely work on a map to visualize and show it because at the end of the day on a positive note even the buildings down there are much smaller than anything you'd see in clearw Beach or St P Beach so like people on a positive note those types of buildings wouldn't be allowed and aren't currently built there um but visualizing it the show that that's not a scary height because 60 sounds like a lot but in reality there's buildings that are exist that are that around that right that's exactly our point and we just want to make that easier for people to grasp like you get it I get it we get it but we want to make sure somebody reading the proposal gets it or or comes to one of the workshops gets it in the previous master plan they they proposed on the beach side uh like a six stories or five stories over parking um in the in the previous master plan so it like we're the first people to Pro that's what was even back then was was proposed on similar to that we wanted to do they give a little more flexibility on on Heights cuz people like taller ceilings in their rooms they don't want to feel C like like enclosed too much because sometimes older they had or even the parking garage the floors are closer together so it's kind of tough trying to find that balance between allowing some flexibility but not too much to because we we don't want super tall buildings either so we tried to find that balance so uh one other question is is our height measured from is is for instance measure from DFE but DFE based on FEMA or is it based on Pen's County vulnerability uh it's based on the The Firm so FEMA the FEMA Maps we haven't adopted the vulner vulnerability study that uh Bells County has done as our as our base Maps many cities have I just went yes yeah many cities have and um I think whenever they uh the penel county was was finishing up those Maps we had to adopt um the clock was running down of when we we had to adopt uh some map one of the maps and uh pelis County was just coming out with their map so in 2021 so we went we went with the firm the f app um and we also adopted that higher freeboard yes because we knew that the studies um showed that you know the firm was was n completely accurate and pelis County study was more accurate than what the firm was so um we were trying to balance that with a higher free board so in case if we do want to adopt the County's Maps then we kind ofjust that and it wouldn't be so off yeah that's thank you finally is there there used to be some devices that could measure things you know go uh um Google Maps and all that so if you could go to the ceiling of a building and then measure down the the roof of a building and then measure down to the ground uh to make it simpler like Okay so this structure is 63 ft I mean you know and I know they used to have measuring devices but uh you know something as simple as that and you could go through and identify okay so this building's This Tall this one's This Tall this one's this tall and and not necessarily having to get plans you know the show because once again it's just like if if you say it's 62 ft nobody's going to go out and measure okay it's no 61.9 and and I don't know whether or not there are those capabilities of measuring distances I think there used to be I know I know we can do it in plan view profile view because it gets distorted on Google sometimes when you're looking at it from the street view I think height may be a little but there may be some other software that would allow us to do it i' I'd have to look and see um if I could yeah check like go to Google measure the height and it matches what I have on the plan then I would feel comfortable doing it um but I'd have to see if we can do it in in the profile I mean I think that would save a whole lot of time because then basically you can you can identify almost every building simply y I'd have to see if you can do it in section view so yeah we can definitely look at that using blue beam maybe yeah I definitely did not intend to uh say hey go out and uh take a laser measure and hit every building but yeah I wonder if maybe can gisis do that too maybe I don't know if it can we have we can do laser height measurements and we would have to I'd have to take it out and I know we do it inside the buildings I'd have to see get with Frank and see what its capabilities are externally if there was you know a balcony or something that came over and we could shoot that and kind of gut check it from there but yeah we can definitely you know do something um like that like we La you know last resort almost you know if you feel like you need to fill in some gaps on that map you know maybe it's worth it just to but to to Mike's point I mean I think I think that just getting a sample set is probably good enough um to me anyway okay by chance do you know what on Pelican Lane that four story building it's three floors and the garage is are says underneath parking it's brand new it's going up now that one's 44t is it I believe it's 44 above DFE 44 y you can see that from right you can see that from Gulf Boulevard if you drive by because it Towers up over all of the stores and I can tell you when they start work in the morning and when they finish yeah you think about that and 44 feet and you add another 16 to it you can basically visualize and that basically is the entrance into where all of this is going to happen so it's going to be a progression upwards and I would have to look at the plans because I can't remember if the stairways or stairwells counted for that height uh it's been a while yeah and also we're not proposing any height increases in that area we are keeping it exactly the same as what it is currently so it's going to stay at 44 correct the only places where proposing the 60 ft are areas where there are actual buildings at that around that height currently because as I said we don't want to increase Heights where it's unnecessary to do that um because in the v we're we're keeping the height of the or the same in the village and the boardwalk and along a pelican Lane so I just boardwalk in the village of um it's hard because so many of the buildings that were built in traditional Village were before the zoning code so we don't have a lot of those building plans um and the height um of that area and then Boardwalk I know we have like the garage bubble gumps um I don't know if we have the height of on that side I know we have the height of the garage on like the commercial core area yeah one option with Village we could do since like the triangle lot is potentially where the city parking lot would go we could just like write 34 feet or 44 with an a half an acre or acre of land depending on how much because because I I agree we don't want buildings Tower towering over on the outside parts of it so to cap it it it let's say the boardwalk let's say we kept it at the 34 and in village on on one side of Village it was kept at 34 and potentially in the triangle thing it was for because that's where the city parking garage would go um that that is one option that's why we wanted to require land so just in case if we need to add more buffering or set back to um mitigate that height as it looks the developer has three more lots that are vacant that he looks like he's going to continue building and they're so square and so plain that and you see it it just and I just said to these two gentlemen why didn't that come before us because it didn't have to it's conforming I know that but you know just architecturally if I'm looking at something why do I have to look at a shoe box you don't I do I live across the water from it well I understand that it's the same thing with the Cambria and the other yeah and we don't have design guidelines which is what we will be writing in this section yeah that's part of the Fatal flaw we have there are no AR nothing for us even as staff so in order to get the square footage have to make it but that's not my fault my my fault is everybody visually is looking at this y you bought the property you made the commitment however you work out the square footage but it doesn't have to be a square block building that's my opin with you you know yep a lot of the reason that happens too and it's it's it's frustrating because we do have small lots and everybody wants to absolutely maximize their setbacks and so it it does force us into the situation that you're talking about that's a whole different set of meetings yes but it within this zoning with John's Pass we are proposing we're going to put in design guidelines we will be I pray yes all right how much moving right along yeah one other question if you don't mind how much would the special magistry have flexibility in increasing let's say height that we are trying to set so with height we really are looking for PD so it' be a rezone to PD and then that would go to Planning Commission and boc wouldn't the magistrate only have under his jurisdiction variances and with a variance you have to prove a hardship yes okay yes it's it's quite difficult needing more height to build more units is not a hardship no no so that's why you would have to go through the PD and and any and because of the special area plan and the future land use even if someone did try to Zone they'd still be stuck dealing with the special area plan so that would really limit what they could do because they still have to make it look like John's Pass so a 12-story building isn't John's Pass so like they're still stuck dealing with that so luckily because we were so strict with regulate like we tried to make sure to protect the community from scenarios like that excellent all right what else you got really just have Jo John's Pass so if we want to go to the zone and the um setbacks and we kind of talked about how how we can visualize that at these meetings um so that was great input we want to go to the setbacks um you kind of guess we can go to the Barefoot Beach we really just tackled Barefoot Beach is like the first thing we knew that we had you know more recent plans on the height so just trying to see what that looks like what we could put together uh for these meetings and obviously we'll do it for other buildings as well but um just trying to see what that looks like if it's too much for um this I know has a lot of pictures going on here so it's very busy but um we're just trying to figure out how to visualize this um how to show it to the public at these public workshops and what works what doesn't work what makes sense so this is what we put together what the last few days yeah so like when we get the site plan um when we look at setbacks we look at the the outermost edge of the structure as related to the property line and those are the setbacks and how we measure them so I kind of wanted to show here like in the rear for instance you see there's a setback to the structure then as you go to the second floor there's a balcony and our code allows for like the balconies which you hit the second floor to encroach into the setback like you know four feet for example so kind of wanted to V people to visualize what we're looking at and and how that's measured and determined so that is strictly kind of what what this example is for so is it what you're telling me is it's being proposed that that would continue to be allowed to overhang encroaching into the setback we we do allow those for balcony jet throughout that would that would continue Within I'm assuming we haven't really talked about that yeah so within reason yeah that we would still allow for those encroachments for the um balcony and they're they're pretty specific about what's allowed and how it's allowed okay for instance you wouldn't be able to have you could have the can of lever but once you put a column there it Chang start over changes the measurement correct got it one thing I I did want to talk a bit about is a great thing with us being working on the zoning is we're able to definitely listen to community Fe and play commission and board feedback to change things that that people might not like currently with our current zoning code like um certain things like on on the beach side you you're able to restrict um certain uses if you got because I I know there's been concerns about rooftop uses so you can write in the zoning code what it's restricted to um we'll probably EV eventually have to do the alcohol ordinance separate to uh restrict certain alcohol from not being allowed on that side of the beach or on the beach side um but that's it's important like to realize like now we have the chance to fix certain things within reason and what what we're able to do but um if people have like concerns about like kind of roof rooftop noise or like there's certain things we can restrict or or require additional sound Deon or in or on a pause note with the floor area that that we have down there now you'd have more sound ending because you'd have more areas enclosed instead of open because one of the things with Beford Beach Club is it has a lot of open areas to keep the F around that was it 1.02 that that would if if the F allowed previously was higher it would have been inclosed and and and with Windows and air and and the noise the hallways of being closed so um also one thing we've talked about is what Andrew is talking about with you know rooftop bars or rooftop um amenities possibly having that as a special exception use meaning you would have to go to the special magistrate you would also notify all your neighbors so we've written that into I think the special exception um as of right now just you know as our proposed draft um thinking of that going forward having that as a special exception use would that be coming in front of us before it goes in front of the board oh absolutely and the community like uh we're going to be doing uh workshops uh this this month um do we have the dates some yes the 13th the 18th and the 20th so we'll be getting Community feedback because we want to make sure because now that's the chance for the community to kind of correct things that that they might have had issue with with our zoning code and now we can actually fix it at least in that area good stuff so I've got a couple questions about the setbacks and are we finished with that are we discussing it no we can we can go into discussing it and what works here or what works in the setback well in terms of the commercial core um that you have nothing in the front and 20 in the back where it used to be 10 and 10 I mean you and I guess I are these setbacks based upon what's kind of existing there is that where you came up with these numbers uh so anything in the red is a proposed change it's really kind of our attempt is like here's a starting point let's just discuss it um so right now in the commercial cor it's C1 so there's none in the front um and then on the side it's 10 ft on one side and in the rear it's let's see 25 looks like so that's what's in the C1 zoning District right now as we know a lot of those buildings don't meet that criteria so where you see on this column on the ground setbacks that's where we're still collecting data so you can see some of them are filled out but commercial core we don't have all the data there um but we know that a lot of places in commercial core as well as TR traditional Village both of them are C1 zoning districts uh they don't meet that uh the setbacks that are currently in the zoning code well I'm looking at it from a standpoint of the commercial core is the orange in the new Activity Center area yes which to have zero setback in the front means that you're going to be right on the street and right on the street is a Hazard at Sweet brunettes I mean I don't even know you know and so that's I think that's a major problem you know so if you have 20 foot in the back uh you know it it doesn't make sense to me you know being right on top of the sidewalk property line so it's uh the commercial core is this area this Orange area right here so we have the garage um and then a few like delosas um and then we also have mostly walking traffic area yes walking walking areas all inside the village core on the left side the right side is all open and nothing's all rock there build here and then some over here and then waltz's over here too well yeah so the left part is all basically developed that's where the parking garage is and and um the parking gar crash and the little hotel mhm right here right and delosas and the boardwalk well dois is in the the orange area yeah yes and there's zero setback right in front on both sides they're right up on the sidewalk yeah I know that they have I think an awning on Boardwalk Place like right over here so I don't know if that that might not be to the U property line they might have a little bit of a setback there oh good idea um there we go now oh yeah I think they have a zero and they just do um Sidewalk Cafe well to some extent I guess my point is zero there is not bad because you got a huge sidewalk so I'm just you know and and and the thing is not knowing where the actual property line is is where the gray area is and I'm sure people will look at you know zero setback well you know you're right on the road basically so one thing that we are we always check on so this isn't always 100% accurate but it's it's pretty close on where the property lines are um so this might be a little off you really have to go to the um see so this is over obviously it's a little off but there are rules about Ingress and egress and safety associated with that so you would and end up with a situation I think maybe you're thinking you step out of a building and Bam you step into a road so that there are Ingress egress requirements that we wouldn't allow for for that to happen so yeah well I mean like I say I'm just you know as John said you know we're paying for people that didn't really care previously and now we're we're trying to do the fight I mean you know and that's why I think we're all trying to be so adamant about getting all these things correct at this time definitely and one thing that we've talked about internally too let me go up is having um you know if it's two stories are higher having requiring a setback but requiring you to have oh where am I requiring you to have something like an awning or a structured awning something like what they have over here say if I mean this property they own John's way and across so but say if this was a property line you know you would have to have some some setback so it's not doesn't seem like a huge box that's very opposing right on um the sidewalk so that's something that we've also talked about and we want to also explore and look at other Main Street zonings in penis County and other areas that are similar to John's Pass well I mean like I say that looks that's pretty I mean you know so and if they're you know so long as you have enough Walking area in front of it and I guess also nobody's really going to be driving fast down there so it's not like it's a blind corner like at Sweet brunette um I mean you know but like that was that was an oops and you know fortunately we're not dealing with that area at this point but um I I don't know as to whether or not if we and and I this is a question do we have to correct all the oopses that were done before how can you well I I well I think that's what they're kind of saying that they're trying to do to keep everything in yeah I would say not with the setback so really just trying to see um was mostly for the intensity and and density a lot of the density so um that's really covered with the future land use change and all of that I think the setbacks it's really imagining well how how does this area function how do we want it to function in the future what works what's typical of you know all these character districts well I guess and also possibly as an example that rock lot right over to the right there if you say what can be put what can be put on that property right you know as an example using these current guidelines or what you're looking to do what can be developed there the usage of of each of all your storefronts have different uses like a coffee shop has a lot of people in and out but a sewing shop may not so your setbacks wouldn't would have to depend on the usage and if you had a two-story building where the second story was dumped into the first one set back a little bit then you'd have to have a better or a bigger set back or an area that that building where you stepped out of the building wasn't in a danger zone such as you know just one thing I wanted to reme remind you guys of too um back when a lot of this was done the ADA requirements weren't in place or weren't being properly followed so Ada will drive a lot of what ultimately happens to these buildings so that forces the safe you know stepping in stepping out and access to so you don't see that but anything new coming in or anything rebuilt would have to adhere to all those requirements as well I think I think what I'm kind of hearing is right not only like pedestrian safety but we all are saying right we're at this moment where we can kind of help make this space and and make some updates that are better than what maybe we've had in the past and I think really what we're looking for is something that's a little bit more pedestrian Centric cuz like right now you know kind of some parts of John's past feel like a big parking lot and feels like just cars and that's not what it's supposed to feel like in my opinion and I think the beauty of versus the building code regulations and things like that the beauty of what we have the ability to do from the planning side and then from on our side is I think if you want to defend some of those things we have to get creative with what are some pedestrian centered regulations that are going to be required to be followed within setbacks within new developments within things like that because otherwise it's just going to still be a car Centric kind of environment so I would say as much as the you know the densities intensities and building Heights and all that are great what I I personally would like to see and kind of to what y'all are talking about is with setbacks maybe more landscape focused you know defensive landscape focused things that deter people from driving too quickly um you know something that feels a little more walkable versus the middle of the road uh you know a double line road down the middle of the John's Pass Village um that's personally what I would like like to see and I think that would capture a lot of the concerns um you know yeah I mean that was a that's kind of a good example if you go back to that road I mean that right there people can fly through there this road right here if you go back down that little alley and I know it's a little smaller when you when you drive next to that landscape like that you automatically you slow down and you you know so things like that I think if we can get some IDE is is to how can we regulate and Implement more things that allow for a more walkable environment um I think that solves a lot of and that's actually within the power of Planning and Zoning versus building regulations so um I don't I mean some of those Street improvements would most likely like if it's on a local Street fall and the the city to do like let's say you wanted to do speed table or raised crosswalks that would that would need to be in our CIP um because I which we can definitely discuss but I don't think I mean the Land Development regulations I think we' be more like talking about like minimum sidewalk width um certain like because we we definitely want to make sure pedestrians have enough room and if restaurants want to do sidewalk cafes that there's enough room for that and pedestrians and people in wheelchairs can all get down so there's certain things we we can yeah we definitely want to make it pedestrian focused and and when we show our draft our ldrs I think it'll show that pretty well but some of the other stuff is probably going to have to be infastructure that that will have to be in our our CIP and and public works yeah I think we're getting a little out over our skis right now and getting too in too much into the weeds no pun intended with the Landscaping thing but I think the height and and the the height the density the setbacks generically speaking are what needs to be addressed first the rest will come in when they go to the building department for a flight plan approval uh and that'll be part of that process right I don't know that we need to get down in there right now because we're just looking at the the activity centers and the taking care of the new Big Picture items right now we'll have to drill down to that later but we've got to get you know phase one phase two phase three as we get deeper and deeper into it I don't think we're going to cover it all now and we certainly can't go back and fix everything that's not exactly not been done correctly there's no way to unwind that stuff but we can do the best we can going forward another thing that we've talked about is having a different sign code for commercial core traditional Village Boardwalk but right now we really just want to get the framework done and then visit that after we get the the basics of zoning but then after we do that we do definitely do want to address signage at that time do landscaping and just make it more robust but just framework for what we're doing now let's stick to this stuff the height the setbacks you know but those things are still still Landscaping because like when we started this process with the village it was for a major storm event so we had all this in place ahead of time so like my question is if something is non-conforming would they be grandfathered in to go back to what they had or would they have to then follow all this the new guidelines um it depends on what it is our non-conforming section of the code is it's kind of lengthy um I know with like residential a lot of them you can build within the same existing footprint you can extend along an encroaching side if you go to Planning Commission if your lot is within this many feet wide um if you're in these zoning districts so it's it's a little difficult saying on the on the cost of is that allow or is it not I know that the floor area ratio for commercial buildings is not so that was one of are big driving factors as well is we need to get this done we need to make sure that these commercial buildings can stay or can um be renovated and not just how they are right now if a storm comes they can't rebuild so that was one of our big driving factors of that so then my big question is with the three um workshops that we're having and then the more fine-tuning that you guys are going to be doing will we be seeing this again next month with what the actual numbers are going to be proposed that's our plan is just to bring this back every single month give you updates get more input from you um so you can start seeing our drafts and so it's not just hey surprise here's this do you like it so it's really we want to get your input we want to get public input we want to incorporate all of that into the Land Development regulations and and I think that's good and that's where I think we've gotten to a point we try to not pass anything on that has any iffiness and I'm not sure whether or not anything has gone on you know beyond us you know that we haven't approved so it's just kind of a matter of we're trying to make sure that when it gets pushed on to the Board of Commissioners that we have basically all signed off on it once we feel ready once all of you feel ready and we feel like this is a good draft then that's when we'll bring it forward but we want to make sure that we get as much input and that everybody feels very comfortable with it could we talk about some of the projects on the golf related to Coastal Construction Control line setbacks could we discuss yeah let's push that to the Planning Commission discussion we'll let them finish this part and then we'll jump in on that all right because that's that's also setback related sure well this is Activity Center plan though stuff right now talk about it in the activity center as like a do we have do we have CCC line in the activity center yes we do yeah on the beach condo okay so then ask in relation to that go for so let's let's do that so the setback in R3 umre is the cccl so that's that's what the setback is and everything on the west side is R3 yeah it should be yeah I mean I have it cut along the control line it doesn't this is where it is Mike your mic's off I think oh yeah your microphone's off Andrew I have the boundary set along I made sure the boundary was set along it so any landward of the like on this side is a landward the Coastal Construction Control line and anything on the other side of it is on on the beach on the beach side and on our future land use map I think is Preservation um but I can pull up the properer appraiser um the show where where it is yeah so on traditional Village you're looking to decrease it from 25 to 18 so so so is that is that from costal Construction Control line the setback yes that's like side we're talking about um it probably be in John's Pass Resort and transitional yeah so this is this is right down here is John's Pass Resort and then it goes to transitional over here not from the rear property lines you you you you the setbacks from CCC line not the not the property line it's from the yeah it's from the CCC um and I think how it's written right now in the R3 all of this is R3 is the setback is the cccl so you can build to the C but but now you're proposing to give it 25 ft or so setback yeah no I think it's a no you're talking about a different District well a traditional Village you talking about right where where's well you're two you got two you got John's Pass Resort transitional so you do have things across the street on the east side so that's where um guess it's not really clear we know because we see it all the time but the C3 C3 C4 and R2 those are all on the east side of Gulf Boulevard so we would have um how we have the draft right now is okay you're in transitional District if you're on the east side of Gulf B Boulevard these are your setbacks if you're on the west side of G Boulevard these are your setbacks rear so the yeah the rear set back on the beach side on the west side right now and the R3 is cccl and we just we kept that for for right now um I think it's 25 if you're not on the beach side if you don't have the cccl on your property there's a few properties like that um so things these properties right here so we'd be looking at at that as well all these properties um in front of Gulf Lane obviously they don't have the cccl so they have to have a set back and right now it's 25 ft is is the green line is that the CCC line yes and the property lines are maybe another 50 ft in some cases out yeah in some cases water W MH because a lot of I mean look at the whole bunch of buildings there they're already constructed up to CCC line exactly and why change it now there're still allowed to yeah yeah they yeah so they're they're allowed to build up to the cccl on this side when you're in interior lot and you don't have the cccl then the rear setback of 25 feet kicks in oh I see okay all right I'm sorry cccl minus 25 ft oh correct it's C if you're beachfront if you're not it's 25 ft okay trying to smush everything into oneel I was looking at that myself going why do it go from zero to 25 ft that's going to be problematic like seab breeze is on you not seab breze but some of them further south are right on the contr line so it's if you're on if you border the control line you can go right up to it if you're not a property that AB buts the control line it's 25 foot setback you can go up to it as long as your setback from the real property line could be whatever it is that you want it to be you know depending on where the property Lane is Right One Challenge especially between Gulf Boulevard and Gulf Lane is when Gul Boulevard was widened back in the day it it it took a lot of the frontage off these properties as you can see a lot of these Lots are some some of them are only like 84 feet so that's mine by the way oh we no not the lot there's a house on it right next to M nor oh no that's a different one sorry anyway I have one right there same effect there's no back no front yard because Gul Boulevard came up in front of it very little front yard there's like a lot of kind of that that right now would require a variance to be able to build a house there um but great one thing we could write in the zoning is if you're building a I don't know single family home um it only has to meet these setbacks if the lot is like less than I don't know 4,000 square feet or yeah that one actually Is Mine mine's the rear setback violation not front right now all of these you can just tell they're all non-conforming yeah legally non-conforming built before the zoning code y just like got about a 12 in side setback and all kinds of crazy stuff over there but there're the problem we can't we can't pass or we can't recommend changes that and then make those comply they're going to they're going to have to stay the way they are right right right it is so we got to do the best for the most exactly so you're looking at what's in the character District what matches where where do you see the future um yeah not not just oh this one is built right on the property line so let's do zero foot setbacks everywhere um but really looking at the character districts and what what makes sense character all right good stuff what else we got we good there I think so yeah all right nicely done um does that cover everything for what you guys have cover need to bring us yeah and then next time we'll um bring information from those meetings uh that we have that' be great you are obviously welcome to attend we'd love to see you and um what else we'll bring updated draft so you'll be seeing that you'll be seeing that every month so we will want input every month I think that's all that we have a lot of the uh setbacks are also fired Department related so if you go closer than 10 ft then you have to worry about like a 2hour wall or yes so we'll definitely be uh bringing the drafts to fire department to building and to public works yeah okay all right um I guess that brings us to our next meeting which is scheduled for May the 6th at 6 PM same location any discussion oh is there any discussion I think we got host's point about the control line right good anybody else got any discussion any other discussion good all right meetings and Jour thank you