e good evening I'd like to call this uh to order for the planning committee at 6 o'clock I'll call the r chairman wov commissioner Govi available commissioner Dylan here commissioner Noble here commissioner Connelly here commissioner Mah here commissioner Lio absent so if we have any public comment this would be the time to do so with no public comment we'll move on to approval of the minutes do I have a motion to approve the minutes I'd like to make a motion to approve last month's minutes I'll second I'll call the roll commissioner gavahi yes commissioner noo yes commissioner Connelly yes commissioner Dylan yes commissioner Mah yes they're approved unanimously okay now we'll move on to Old business potential fence cold amendments hello good afternoon my name is Joe I'm a planner with the city uh I've been with the city a couple of months short of a year um and one of my main duties is reviewing permit applications and planning and zoning um and that includes a lot of fence permit applications and in my time working with the city I've noticed it causes a lot our current fence code causes a lot of frustration for uh a little away okay gotcha there you go so the fence thanks uh the fence code causes some pressure ation for some contractors homeowners and applicants for a few different reasons it's a little inconsistent not everything regarding the fence code is all in that section some of it's spread around in other sections uh so today I'd like to walk everyone through uh a few of our proposed changes um and we brought this to the BC last BC Workshop um and now we're bringing it here today uh so first uh the fence code has a definition section and there's a definition for the building line uh but that definition is not utilized at all in the current fence code and that's important when it comes down to height which I'll talk about a little bit later uh but basically this would just add a little bit to that definition to include variances as part of the building line and then on to number two on the bottom of that same page building permits required um or we just want to clarify that temporary construction fencing um would not need a separate fence permit application and uh also more on that later gets touched on on to the next page uh here we split up the openings and open fences into two separate sections this is a big part because a lot of fench Manufacturers don't make fences that meet specifically the our open fence requirements they're kind of very specific um so with this data here I I put some of on the side I put where I got a lot of this information uh some of the research we did um but I looked at some of the other m IP alties open fence requirements I also looked at some of the open fence types at common manufacturers Like Home Depot and Lowe's um and kind of broadened the requirements for open fences so that's what's going on there then back to the temporary construction fencing just adding a little section here that it's required um but and then some of the feedback we got from the bocc meeting was that we should really be requiring some more on the temporary fencing uh so I talked to the rest of my department about that and we're going to be implementing some stronger and more specific construction fencing requirements I was just going to jump in here really quickly just to touch on that a little bit so in chapter 14 which is really like the building regulations and Technical amendments of the code we do have a section that's construction fencing and so uh you'll be seeing this in a few hopefully sooner than later a month or two months um we Marcy and I were talking with um fdm about updating our flood plane regulations this is something that's required so that's looking at chapter 14 looking at chapter 14's the building code um and Technical amendments chapter 94 which is a flood plane chapter and then also adding some some definitions or moving some definitions into our chapter 82 of the code so you'll see Marcy and I were going through that and also talk to Joe about uh the silt fence the sediment fencing um and I think that that chapter 14 it talks about construction fencing so looking at that section would be a great place to put um the silt fence and then making that area more robust so you will be seeing that not in this the fence uh code but you will be seeing that in a month or two months um a draft of those ordinances thank well is that going to be redundant then to number 10 with the um temporary fencing no it won't the uh temporary fencing in or the construction fencing in chapter 14 um talks a little bit more about where it is when when is it required this is just a definition so it won't be in conflict of of both and we'll make sure of that well would it be simpler to have it in one place I mean rather than somebody looking at fencing and seeing temporary fencing and think that's that's going to be fine you know you know so like having it in two places makes sense kind of but to somebody trying to do you know new construction or something and then they go into fencing and they see the fencing here or should there be something maybe added to um see see paragraph 14 yeah we we could definitely um make sure and that's the one thing we didn't want to do with a temporary fencing is we do feel like as we use our code we realize it's been touched here and then when somebody started to touch it they said oh let's go ahead and add this here while we're doing it consequently it's it's grown into confusion so what our code is missing honestly is a construction site management and maintenance section and that's really where we want to capture all this but for now we really do want to touch on the silt fencing but we're going to do that as Jenny said as we get into the the 14-3 8 which right now is 1438 is required construction fencing we're going to reward that to required construction and erosion control fencing and that'll be a good place to include that so what we may do is if we do ultimately just at least Define it here then we may kick kick you back to another location for further information how however we need to word that but we would definitely want to have the rules and regulations clear and concise in one location but we may have it defined once or twice in our code so that people are seeing it and knowing to go look for it somewhere else to get the better um more defined use of it and stuff like that okay yeah because we it seems as if we're getting into quite a bit of construction now and then especially there was the main issues with the condo over by Tom and kitty that you know was there construction fencing enough to keep all the sand from going on the road correct and I think um um I have seen really good examples of construction site management sections that are very specific to job site trailers construction fencing erosion control discharge during dewatering curb maintenance you know soil tracking on and off the site so I really would like to capture that so I'm kind of excited but Jenny and I have been looking forward to that in the next few months as well um but first will be the flood plane and then we'll kind of work on that section but we look to capture that and really bring it home for us and wouldn't uh any fencing silt fence in particular fall under OSHA guidelines as well which it's clearly stated they're going to have to follow the OSHA rules I know it's good to have it in ours as well and as long as it's consistent and it's in different places I don't think that's any kind of problem it just has to be consistent so they don't point it one say oh over here it says this and over here it says that so um and with the silt fencing typically that's controlled through like fdp and through the storm water management so they have particular rules around erosion control and best management practices so we'll revert to that fdot has a good standard but we're also looking to um we'll probably create a design standard specific to madira beach that we will ask and it's a normal part of plans if you're doing work in penel County you insert the pelis county standard if you're in Clear Water you insert that we would like to create one for madira Beach that's consistent with what's used but also gives us the ability when driving around the city limits to be able to stop and go hey you're not doing this per our standard that we've given you in permitted by you got to get it fixed and corrected and things like that so ours will be very similar to um ones that are commonly used we may make it a slightly bit more robust because you know if you have Stakes that are closer together you're going to have a more stable silt fence a lot of times you only have to be six to 10 feet apart with your Stakes so we may come up with something like that to help with the silt fencing and keep it a little more um a little more intact during construction process and then where it's readed is these are the changes you want to add is that correct yeah these are the additions so here uh I didn't mean to cut you off but uh the point of touching the SE fencing here or temporary fencing was more just to let people know that it doesn't have to apply to the regular fencing code section so I think it was a good idea to maybe in that red that we're adding maybe add a reference to that section 14- 38 the required con construction fening well I was just going to say be uh working for a contractor and having to deal with this from time under number 10 where you have temporary fencing shall be removed within two calendar days that's pretty tight okay that could be two you know maybe five working days because of rain or whatnot so I think you're just opening a you're causing a problem there just by two days because sometimes these guys moving equipment doing this and that it's hard to get yeah two weeks would be plenty of time sounds good and if you want some reference the uh core of engineers handbook em385 1-1 has all that spelled out it's like this thick and anything you want to deal with construction and do it safely and above and beyond the oosha rules you could take a look at that and it'll spell out exactly what we need for the beach construction Mary is there any reason in your ects that you've left out um bales of hay bail hay hey Bales hey bills yeah so that would typically that would be in our storm water runoff and that would be considered part of a best management practice kind of a BMP train um there's no reason why when we do our construction site management section as related to erosion control and storm water that we can send people to a standard that includes hay bells as an option but it is it is used used we just wouldn't touch it for our fence section here the thing is it's it's and my experience with Sil fences and hay bales they go hand in hand and I have never been on a job site that just one has been used correct for the simple reason is Sil fence doesn't catch everything where you lay a bail of hay and that bail gets wet it absorbs a lot of stuff it it does and and those would be like great options at the greates especially for the the projects we have where the construction's going on immediately adjacent to that so there's nothing wrong with us in addition to our Sal fencing location requirements also requiring the hay bells we're also getting much better about requiring or asking people to show us on site where they're going to have some you know soil tracking such that the dirt comes off the trucks prior to hitting the road we're we're trying to get more aggressive about that as well I think that should be added in and we'll definitely um you won't see it in the fencing but we'll definitely get that get that in the appropriate section um that makes thank you right so uh continuing down in the fence section on the next page the item number five in red that we're looking to add in uh this is already a section of our code uh here we did reference it directly um but this just lists areas where a fence is not permitted um and this just brings it into the fence code so that people when they're looking to build a fence everything's right in the fence section um that's just the intersection visibility triangle which already exists in our code we're just adding it here so everything's in the same spot for people next is going to the height uh this is another big point for a lot of fence permit applicants right now we don't have a clear definition that we use when it comes to the front yard side yard and rear yard and that's important because if they're in the rear yard versus the front yard the fences have different height requirements so here this kind of clears it makes it more black and white on where the front yard and rear yard starts and the way we word it here it's referencing that definition um earlier on page nine with the building line as the setback line based on the zoning District so basically right now since there's no clear definition we interpret it as where their where the building ends is where the front or rear yard starts so for different people in the same zoning districts that might be different and that causes some issues just because somebody didn't build their house to the maximum set Buck now they're not able to build a fence as far back with a six foot height that they would get on the sidey yard for example so this gives everybody in the same zoning District the same fence height requirements um a lot of ways people get around that right now since it doesn't since it's not consistent for the zoning district is and we've had this with u a few different permit applicants they'll have their neighbor turn in fence permit so that they can go a little bit farther and then we're able to approve it like that and um I've had a few situations where I had three different fence permits just to get it approved at different heights but it was really all just one person trying to get it done so now if it's based on the setback line uh which is being proposed in our amendments then it would be the same regardless of who's pulling the permit yes I recently did a fence and we had to pull three permits for two pieces of fence we we all live on a canal we all agreed and there was no process that we could just submit a letter certified whatever you needed saying hey we all agree on this and we had to spend the extra money on the permits and it took a lot longer to get a fence and it's a hell of a lot nicer than it used to be and everybody's happy how about [Music] that yeah so this would just make it based on the setback line um so it would be the same for everyone there's pros and cons to that um the only con that really could think of is that if somebody right now if somebody has a a house that is built beyond the setback line they can build their six foot fence a little bit further back just because they have a nonconforming structure but this would make them follow the setback lines um except if they got a variance approved which was added into that definition section then scrolling down uh to swimming pool this is just also already exists so swimming pool is required to be surrounded by a 4-ot fence that's Florida building code and it's also stated in our swimming pool section this kind of just brings it back into our fence code section so that someone that's building a fence knows to keep that in mind if they have a swimming pool there's different requirements also currently rear yards on the water are allowed to have a fence higher than 3 fet unless it's open which it could go to 4et so this makes it clear makes it black and white so that someone that doesn't really read code can tell okay I have a swimming pool in a rear yard on the water and this lays it out that that would mean you need a 3 foot a 4 foot fence but the top foot at least has to be open and then it have to is there any references made to uh visibility triangles in this section so the visibility triangle is more for uh intersection visibility the part that we added so it's not in the swimming pool that's uh on number five I think at some point we had discussed that waterfront properties um could not bring the fence too high where it can prohibit the neighbors from being able to see across to a point so we had talked about some visibility triangles along the seaw walls at some point yes so that wasn't brought in this section this so This fence section the entire fence code we're not proposing to change any of the heights all the heights are being the same so the 4 foot Max already exists and would still exist here I'm not sure sure if that really answers your question um but we're not looking to change the heights yeah we had discussed that when we were discussing accessory um the accessory buildings and the tiis and stuff with the fence they are still going going to have to meet the setback for the primary structure which on the water is 30 ft so for for a 6ot fence so you wouldn't see a 6ot fence for the first and R1 and then R2 is 25 25 and 25 yeah so the visibility triangle for this particular topic won't come into play we're not really it it won't be an issue um because you can't your your setback is the same as your primary structure for the fences so you can't build your house closer to 30 ft than the water in R1 your fence 6ot fence will not go closer than 30 ft to the water does that make sense but accessory structures we did talk about they couldn't they cannot build like a six foot high fence right on the property line on the property line but not to the rear property line so they can build on the side correct but not all the way out to the water I see yeah they would have to be 30 ft back in R1 in R1 that that gives you enough for visibility triangle correct but with these changes you'll be able to go past your cuz our houses are offset so You' be able to go to 30 ft from the seaw wall even though my house is 60 ft from the seaw wall correct if this passes exactly and that's all right new fence permit coming down to be to be clear the 30 feet is specific to R1 R2 and the other districts have their own setbacks but it'll be specific to the dis um the district but to Joe's Point it'll be uniform now and it doesn't matter if one house is here and one house is there you don't have to do the three permits where's the call for the setbacks I keep trying to read in here and don't see where where reference setbacks so if you uh go back to page nine the building line building line means the established by the setback required by the zoning District in which the lot is located U so that would make you reference the actual zoning section um which I don't have printed today but uh you would go like say it's it's R1 you would go to the R1 zoning site ction and then it would give you the building setbacks and then that's the same setbacks we would apply to the fences thank you yeah that's good and then continuing uh onto page 12 the only other addition that we are proposing here is just to add a small non-conforming section uh basically just putting it black and white that any fences that don't already meet the fence code uh would have to comply with the fence code uh right now it's that's how kind of how we apply it but it doesn't specifically say that and a lot of other code sections like uh the sign section have their own non-conforming section um because in the traditional non-conforming section for the whole code a lot of times it allows you to get back what you have and we don't want to allow that for fences basically you would have to follow these guidelines um regardless of what kind of fence you have now I kind of disagree with that unfortunately as we're looking and I I started going on uh the county appraisers and there's properties in in where we're talking about there there's one is 40 by 40 so if they have a fence around their place I mean you know and if they need to do maintenance on it how are they going to come within those standards uh you know and and I understand in terms of the non-conforming it makes sense but yet you know I don't know how these properties got divided down so low uh but yet it's yeah so if you've got one 40 by 40 and then there was some that were 40 by 37 and 43 on the other side you know it's it's and they try to replace their fence that's falling apart um I I don't know that that's really a good thing and and where I'm going with this is there was a um somebody that bought the property over on Golf Boulevard and they lived on Madera way and they were trying to put a fence up well it got into a thing of it was for beautification was the the garage exactly and and the way they got around it I shouldn't say got around it made it amiable to everybody body all the citizens and everybody that lived there were for it but yet by code they couldn't do it so yeah they did I think they did put it okay well I think there's a fence there's I yeah oh sorry I think I know what you're talking about they they we found a way of combining those lots and then we're able to consider that the rear of the property so then you're allowed to it's solid yeah yeah it that wasn't the issue was just they were trying to do a new fence and there was like three different addresses and so it was a mess yeah yeah I mean you know but ultimately I think it worked out so I don't know that necessarily do we have to put this in you know you know and I'm just thinking future because we have so many non-conform warming Lots um you know it it it's a it's a good and a bad thing I feel that that's a good point so this is how we enforce it right now um just putting it clear but with the like small Lots like the 40x40 that's a good example if they were to build a new house then with the definition we have they would and they would get it assuming the lot was 40 x 40 they would probably need a variance to build the house anyways if the front set backs 20 feet on the rear say it was um 15 I'm not sure where it would be but um then they would probably need a variance anyways and then with once they get that variance approved they would be able to get the fence builts within the same setbacks as whatever variance is approved um but say like an existing non-conforming uh structure at grade and they have a fence U maybe we could look at adding in this non-conforming section um if it's already existing and it's within the building line maybe something like that I'm not sure that's a good point we didn't really think about could could we include could we include language that if it's a non-conforming siiz lot because they because the thing is I I wouldn't want someone with like a large lot not bringing it into like like a conforming fence if they don't have like a hard hardship of a a small non-conforming size lot so we it just to kind of because I think it it would be important to bring people into compliance within reason but but um it there are quite a bit of houses on non-conforming size Lots also but it might be good to specify that well yes I mean you know in terms of you know as to how exactly you could describe it or or you know not maintenance is one thing but doing new uh would be you know something completely different because if they've got a fence and it's falling apart well okay so that's maintenance you know so but to be non-conforming because it's a small lot I mean you know and it it that's going to be probably getting into a lot of lots whereas I was at the magistrates in the odd shape I mean you know the pie shape lot it was 23 feet in the front and 82 in the back well that's conf considered a non-conforming lot so where's the fence going to go then I I'm just thinking you know avoiding the slippery slope because we have many many many non-conforming Lots can we can definitely talk about this I think probably one of the with non-conformity is probably one of the bigger issues we would have is where the non-conforming structure is POS positioned on the lot may drive some of the fence distances and stuff um so we can kind of talk and see how we best want to approach that um for that for the non-conformance because the main thing we have is we we sometimes we get complaints about fences so then we respond to it they have their six foot fence is too far in the rear yard and we catch it and they have to correct it a lot of times for interior Lots we don't get a ton of complaints but when they want to come in and put in a new fence then we do ask them to become compliant so I think when we were talking about non-conformities we were thinking about people who already have fences that may may not meet the the length and setback and and sizing we just want them if they're coming to to do work on their fence replace their fence to become current with our code um so I don't I think we don't have a ton of I don't know I'm stumbling yeah so maybe maybe instead of Maintenance we could uh said like any replacement um or replacement up to 50% of the you know something like that and kind of explore Yeah just something just something so it it's not a catchall that um yeah I mean you know so some people can do it but if you're getting into a bigger area yeah no then then it's like you need to do it but uh for the smaller non-conforming place yeah and here's what we start thinking about as I go okay somebody we're going to tell somebody that they're going to come in and say okay fine with this permit I'm going to replace 25 ft then I'll see in three months we replace another 25 ft so when we start going back and forth about this like some of it seems easy then we start thinking through it and we see the slippery slope so but you do have a valid point so we do have to figure out how to do that but then not to put the permit e where they're trying to work the system and us trying to pull having to pull three permits because we warded ourselves into a situation so maybe instead of like a percentage we could do so many feet over so many feet of replacement I don't know we can explore that I think yeah yeah I'm thinking yeah even yeah I'm but no it's a valid point and we can definitely discuss that and come up with some some verbiage and and get that going because believe it or not we we have a ton of issues with fences you just described it you're your one permit you know what you went through we have it happen a lot um and then when and when you have a neighbor that gets mad and then they turn in all their other neighbors the next thing know code enforcement's got six complaints and they're all coming to us so um so yeah getting this cleaned up and making it very user friendly for the residents is really important to us and making it you know as streamlined as possible and Joe's been working really hard on this and I think every time we talk about it we come up with something something that we maybe didn't think of before so well is a possibility this is a complete ad so do we go through with all the others and then come back with the nonconformity ad in two three months I mean you know something's going to have to be written in well it wasn't there before I think better better practice would be to get it all done at once because then you're going to have what however they deal with non-conforming now then you're going to change some stuff and they're going to deal with it then you're going to come back in month and change it and they're going to have a third way to deal with it so it'd be best if with all that brain power over there just give them a couple days I bet they'll come up with something like that we will not leave this room until that's or even even tonight I was going to give you a couple weeks but you know even tonight we can bring something to next month U and then we can hash it out again and kind of go over there's some notes on the side here you know Jo notes so we can kind of take everything from tonight and then um also look at that non-conformity section and then bring it back next month see what we're fing in we'll have a little bit more research and see if I think that's good so and change it from two days to two weeks yeah yeah so was this our comment sign time or did you have more to present no we for for fences yes I think that's I think that's all that we have very okay okay so is there any other questions or comments from the commission hey bals um I we both have it written down yeah and I I do have one comment I just want to thank Joe for all of his hard work in doing this he's um like he said he's a few months shy of a year this is his first Endeavor into um planning to this level in depth and he's been doing an amazing job he's been a great team at and we couldn't appreciate him more so I just wanted to thank Joe thank you and I agree and all of you guys have been doing a lot of time in all of this research and that so thank you all for what you're doing ditto so since that's going to be there we're going to move on I guess yes sir okay get my thing here so the next item up is John pass Village Activity Center zoning workshop and before you go into that I've got a few questions about this um you to basically kind of clear things up beforehand uh one of which is property owned from property line to CCL because I know we're going to be talking about the CCL and all that in John's Pass Village so is the property owned from property line to the CCL is one and I don't know I've got six of them here so you want me to go through all six of them or so you're talking about is all the property owned up to the cccl or some of them go past the cccl um we could pull up the property appraiser website to just kind of see where that is well and that's where I was and it it's interesting of how some you know I'm trying to determine you know what's what and as okay as an example Tom and kitty Stewart the property uh is 40 by 100 however the property actually is 40 by 121 so where did that extra 21 ft come from and that's to the CCL and um and and then quite a few of the properties down in fact that's good example there's a CCL line and then their property lines are way way past that so can they build to the CCL line or to their property line they would be limited to their the cccl they would not get to go to the property line in the cas is where it extends beyond that um there there is some fdp criteria once you go past the cccl but um our criteria is that is what you get to build up to you Dad yes so if you look in the zoning um Andrew might be able to do it a little faster than me yeah could you go to munic code R3 we'll see it later in the slide but the setback line for R3 those are the properties on the beach yeah so if you're Waterfront if you're on the beach then your rear um setback is a cccl and anything that were to ever cross over that then would also involve the FD in any sort of category and there's limitations and and stringent rules around how that works um we haven't had to deal with that lately um so I can't speak intimately to the process but there's not much of an opportunity to build past it okay okay so yeah this is just a section in the code so you can see it this is just munic code um just for Waterfront yard so lots that are on the water uh the set back is just landward of that cccl and and anyone that would have to if they have to if if a property has to rebuild they would have to rebuild on the other side of that because it looks like some of the condos get pretty pretty close to it but I it's kind of tough to tell sometimes with the property appraiser if it's off a couple feet but I know some are are pretty close in the pool for that one's Beyond it so so but that's what they built to their property line not to the CCL line I think maybe in the past um the these are older buildings um so I don't know exactly the regulations in the past I don't know if Mercy you know but um I can't really speak too much about that but that's what the setback is um now yeah that building was built before the coastal control line was put in place so if they get wiped out in a storm they're going to have to follow the new that's correct and they would have to meet all the fdp criteria and get a permit from them and go through that process um related to the construction activities so if their proper if their property is on the gulf Gulf Boulevard side they can go to the CCL line though I guess go to the left go further north oh um so are you talk there okay so some of those buildings these smaller these lots that are right here is that what you're talking about well the ones on the water uh right next to that one so the properties well okay what's that one right by the arrow there yes no that would be the property one so now there's the property but they went to the CC L line some some of these are buildings that were were done I think that yeah and also too um while the property appraisers office sometimes is is very accurate if you have a site survey and you have a a legal description of your deeded property in a survey that shows you own it I often find sometimes the prop the penel County property appraiser doesn't always accurately reflect what somebody legally owns and I'm sure that who can speak to that um so a lot of times it it is a legal survey and we do look at the legal description and and you do find discrepancies especially along these areas and especially where property was vacated for any reason and random things like that um and we do vet that when we get a permit if we get something that count you know intuitively doesn't look like everything's matching up um in fact just recently I sent one to Tom tras where I couldn't make I couldn't follow the process of the purchasing and the vacating all that stuff and he was able to track it down and clear it up so we do look into that and one thing I wanted to add is that those CC SE lines also change from time to time so you know where you see it today wasn't exactly there few years back so state has a way of because the hurricanes and all the issues we've had you know from time to time they change it and bring it further back from the coastline okay so then they can build to the CCL line yes but they cannot build beyond that yes certain things can be built beyond that like a little step you know if you want to put some you know but but but as Marcy stated you have to go through D and get that permit you know sidewalks and certain paths um are beyond that CCC line um but you have to go to the state like we've done some Mobi mats for the cities and it's beyond the CCC line but we had to go to the state and get the permit okay and then one other one um can anything be built in on the easements or in the easements so we don't allow like structures to be built um if you want to do like driveways will go into an easement but I wouldn't like you can't you wouldn't necessarily put permit a shed to be built over an easement or um ideally no structures are in the easement uh if you wanted to do a buried propane tank we don't want it in the easement it needs to be out of the easement so we have easements that are owned by madira Beach and are between properties then we have easements that front the properties which include Duke panel's County us um but we at all cost avoid any per permanent structures in there and if we do have something in there like a sidewalk or a PL or something like that it is on the onus of the homeowner to take care of that if ever we need to come through and utilize the easen or Duke or whoever it's the homeowner responsibility to to participate in removing that if they want it saved or whatever so but you wouldn't be able to put a pole or something like that in into these men like a trash structure um that since it's just the concrete pad really that's immovable in that situation ideally like if it's just a a compactor I I don't know that I've dealt with that have you dealt with that specifically no I haven't dealt with that either that may that may be again where we just say okay if you want to put your concrete pad there we'll allow it because it's we also look at ease of the Public Works team right and ability for the trucks to get in and move around so if it makes it easier with you know Megan's crew and she's okay with it and they understand that they have to replace the pad and they're responsible for it um then I I could see where we may negotiate that and discuss it um so just a slab like that I would look at like a driveway or a pathway that we would permit for homeowners or anybody as well okay thank you that's kind of all I had initially so if so your presentation of John SP Village activities so y'all are very well aware of what this is Johns F Village Activity Center so back in March the land use was approved at the local level um believe it was in February is approved at the county level so the next step is the zoning or implementing that into the Land Development regulations which is the zoning so we recently had three workshops [Music] um and they went really well we had April 13 18 and 20th um and I'll kind of go through this a lot of these slides will look very similar to the slides that we've gone over previously so just with local land regulations really looking at these three different plans so here at the top we have Ford pellis with their countywide plan and so what they have in there is the rules strategies and map so with every parcel that's not good uh with every parcel you're going to have a different land use category at the county that'll show your intensities like your floor area ratio your densities how many units per acre um residential and temporary lodging um and then your allowed uses along with the impervious surface ratio so going down here locally we have two different plans so we have the comprehensive plan and really focusing in on that future land use element it looks very similar to Ford panales you have your intensities densities uses and ISR and perie surface ratio and down here at the very bottom is our code of ordinances and that includes Our Land Development regulations which has everything into fences what we were talking about earlier today um Landscaping zoning a lot of these amendments that you see that come before you are in the Land Development regulations so a lot of things in there uh so what we need to do now is really Implement that Activity Center we have it at the county level we have it at our comprehensive level and now it's really putting it in our Land Development regulations so our zoning here are the three Maps so now we have the activity center this dark blue locally it's this purple and now we're going to be going to the zoning uh we kind we've gone over this quite a bit um basically a lot of the buildings were built in the between 40s and 80s and then in 19 1983 is really the creation of the Modern madir beach zoning with uses Heights setbacks so a lot of these buildings that are actually built don't meet the uh required setbacks and so it's really looking at that um and determining what is appropriate within that area as well as a height um and uses and we've gone over this quite a bit why an activity center just to protect the unique character make sure that there's compatible Redevelopment uh consistency with the countywide plan and really proactive approach and Land Development regulations I was just talking about we're really focusing in on zoning with um the John's Pass Village zoning so creating new zones uh which will you'll see the uses you have your primary use accessory use and special exception so at the special exception that's where you have to go to the special magistrate and ask for a specific use and that's lined out in our code to what you can ask for uh then you see the setbacks uh Building height which is measured from design flood elevation and then in some sections in the zoning you'll see these special requirements IR Ms like we have a few uh zones that have an additional 5 foot buffer or 5 foot setback if you're next to a residential property and I'll let Mercy talk about height and the setback so there is no Architectural Review required right architectural meaning not necessarily floor plans but just Aesthetics um no not now and we are looking to we will be writing in design guidelines um but we need to see if if they're we're hoping that they're light enough that they wouldn't have to go to Planning Commission um but we're going to be discussing that probably not today but whenever we have drafts um is there is there um a threshold that we would like it to go to Planning Commission for review um kind of acting as like your board of Architectural Review thank you Jenny um have you in since you've done the workshop the three meetings of the workshop have you and Marcy compiled all that information um in and do you have it yes in your packets oh it is in the packet yeah in your packets we'll kind of go over this so Marcy's going to talk about height setbacks and sorry no it's fine um just so you know where we're going with this um and this went to boc last Workshop um and we haven't made any changes to Andrew and I really went over it um Miss Marcy was out on conference a conference not vacation conference so um we've gone over it and um we'll be going over again but we have that in your packet so once we go to each character District we'll be kind of referencing the character district and then um the tables that we've created with all the information do you have a percentage of what people just wanted to go for the 34 feet height um I I have that here in your packet we'll kind of go over it but we have written down what each table said and then I've made just a rough tally of you know okay this many people wanted this height this many people that wanted this height um so going back and forth with that and sometimes it was um like a combination or they're very close to the uh tall so but oh an Excel sheet okay Mercy okay so um as Jenny said our height is measured from the design flood elevation so um any of the height that we discuss that we're going to permit and go with will be um as she said from the design flood elevation which is our base flood elevation plus our freeboard which at this point in time our free freeboard is 4 feet which is a pretty robust freeboard so it's a it's it's pretty high for that so that's good um the example you have here is from Barefoot Beach so we kind of wanted to pull a a um an exampled building to show how we do the height and as it's shown here here I can't remember Marc wouldn't it be a good idea where you say freeboard DFE plus freeboard wouldn't it make sense just to put 4 foot next to the freeboard just so that when people see it they can just immediately tell it's fre four feet um unless if it's changed in the future cuz it used to be 2 feet and then I think it was 2021 it was changed to 4T just to make it a little bit more consistent so you have to don't have to change it in all the zoning codes okay and there's nowhere on your radar that you'd be adopting that vulnerability right uh we've talked about it but we would really want to talk to Lisa Foster with the county and really dive into it um so we haven't talked it about it at that level but just kind of passing it through like oh we should probably look more into it so it might be something in the future and then I'm not necessarily encouraging it I'm just asking yeah yeah well we've been we've been asked from the county to adopt it um but we really need to see what would that entail if we did adopt it uh what does it really look like and we haven't gone that far into it so so um as pictured here I think Andrew just pulled it from the spreadsheet 68 feet yeah it's on page uh 5 three okay um we have the worksheet that we handed out during the can't hear you sorry on on page uh on on page 53 we have uh the one of the worksheets we handed out during the meeting I I just wanted to have a copy just to show and in in the table on page 53 it shows the highest buildings from DFE um for each character district and and Barefoot Beach Club is in the transitional character District so this is a good example of um at 68 ft you're looking at about five stories over parking I believe so so that's how we'll be measuring the height so any time we refer to it it is as measured from the design flood elevation what we've U noticed give me one second um in our research too what we've noticed is the average floor height people like to talk in stories and floors um the average floor height ranges from 11 to 14 feet and that's floor to floor and it just depends on the age of the building the design of the building but um that height gives you know the ability to run your Electrical Plumbing uh light lighting but um HVAC too so sometimes the floor height isn't 14 feet it's maybe like 12 feet and you have two feet for any extra space above so for the purpose of our conversation we've just kind of referenced it for people to be between 11 and 11 to 14 ft on average for a story our setbacks are measured from property line so whenever you see the setback it's measured from the property line to the outermost edge of the structural member at grade so a lot of times um any part of the structure whether it's an overhang with a column supporting column or anything like that that is what we measure to as you go to the second story in our current code there is allotments for encroachment into the setback for instance you can have a patio or deck that can deliv up to 4 feet into the like rear setback so there are options like that so as we discuss our code and what we're proposing in the activity center we will be talking about encro encroachments or you know different verbiage as you begin to elevate and go into second third stories but at grade we measured the setback as reference from the property line oh and of course as we talked about earlier um setbacks are from the property lines or with a waterfront rear yard from back of seaw wall or the cccl L as we discussed earlier so if you're on like typically we have this with um single residents families the rear the rear is measured from the water face of the seaw wall to the rear of the structure so that's how we we measure it is from the water space of the seaw wall no stepback requirements right the step backs we we do have any now in our code but you will hear some um some of those probably coming up for John's Pass Village Activity Center we will be talking about step backs okay so here on this slide it just shows the existing zoning map and then the proposed zoning map with the different character districts um so now we can kind of go back and forth between each character district and then um that that sheet or table of of the outcomes from uh those three meetings so we'll just start here with the boardwalk um the existing zoning is C2 uh the setbacks are the front which is from Boardwalk Place it's 20 feet the side is five feet on one side um and then on the rear are Waterfront there's none and the height from DFE is 34 feet and here's just an example we just plucked a random parcel um and then impose those setbacks on that so that's what that looks like and this is the tallest building that we we found um on the boardwalk on C2 so we just try to measure how how high that would be using today's space flet elevation in today's freeboard which is 4 feet um so that comes out to a little over 37 feet from design flood elevation to the very um top of that Peak is that how you measure height yes yes and there's certain things that can exceed like uh mechanical units um architectural features like parapet walls elevator sha elevator shafts exactly do we have a dimens or or height for that 16 ft or so oh that can exceed over it's 20 feet 20 feet yeah yeah that's current that's in a yes that's in the code I think it's in um is the Open Sky section or uh it's near that section but it's already in the code um so now we'll just kind of go through now and if you have flat roof it just goes to the top of the flat roof yes that's correct okay so this might be a little difficult but um so here we have at the end um what Andrew was referring to earlier these are the worksheets that we passed out um showing the current setbacks and the highest existing buildings that uh we could we could find in each district and then this is the outcomes of each table so what we did is everybody got in round tables and we would talk about each character districts the height uh setbacks any special requirements and go around the room having a representative from each table so this is what that captures so looking at this we had um 37 ft or what's currently built to the highest building um was more popular from we had eight eight versus five five um five votes for the 34t from DFE which is the current code um so it looks like the 37 or the highest building that's there um that's kind of the the outcome of the boardwalk area and the setbacks are a little bit harder to to go through um because there's a lot of variation in it so you can see there is some comments about the step backs um maybe on the second floor or I think maybe in the boardwalk on one of the days uh let me see of the Cal lever above the designer flood elevation um on that first day so 5 foot on the ground none above and then um far and set back only and can to leave above the design flood elevation on the front so you have more of a variation on the setbacks um but the Height's a little bit easier to to count up and and tell you but then we also asked uh different notes so other things to consider definitely design guidelines uh the walkability of boardwalk and then having no overhang over the actual boardwalk and then we also wanted to ask Planning Commission any input um questions and and we'll go through character District through character District so if you had any inputs on height setbacks or anything other like design guidelines this would be a good time to talk about that I know I saw that you had all of these do you have anything compiled of the total of what you did um right now I just have this and I've done the tallies of the height U just kind of a personal note but we haven't put that together in in a document um we're trying to figure out the best way to do that with the setbacks um it's not really something I guess you could tally but it gets a little difficult when you when you start to get to the setback so we're trying to figure out the best way to to pull all that together but this is what we have right now is really the um the input from those meetings oh it's is it on we wanted to make sure you guys at least had a draft version of the table where we wanted to bring a summarized results to the boc workshop this month and then you guys would see it it for the Planning Commission meeting in June but we wanted the least have something to discuss which is this a draft version of the summary of of the results of the meeting and another thing that we've talked about um which looks like it'll probably lean more that way is uh measuring from the eve of of the building and then allowing either a certain pitch or uh for the roof or um an additional height for the top of the roof so not to just encourage flat roofs since we know that a lot of the character defining buildings in John's Pass Village or what you think of like the tourist center commercial area um you do have a lot of these um metal roofs with like a gabled end um instead of just a flat roof so and it depends on your character District but um we see so in in terms of as who should said so you've got a potential of a 20 foot additional from the height so you're looking at as example you low intensity mixed 44 feet so that's 14 feet and 44 feet 58 ft and then you can have another 20 ft potenti to be um 78 yeah I mean of of elevator and and different things there yes it's it's quite specific on the certain things that can exceed that height um mechanical units um like we can pull it up in the code it's not supposed to be like habitable space with air conditioning and livable rooms and stuff it's really supposed to specifically be be um be either architectural or or stuff for for mechanical access so in our code it's pretty specific to avoid that issue of someone trying to turn it into a habitable space or getting extra height so yeah we see and that and that's where I think where many other people are so concerned you know here you're talking about 78 feet you know for the top of a building and that's tall and a lot of those 78 or you know that you see in that transitional District um a lot of those were either done with PD zoning or um through a variance which we don't allow that type of um you couldn't get a variance for height basically it would be very difficult to do um nowadays but the code was different back then so we want to make sure that that's very clear of like those are exceptions not saying that everything should be that that height but those are the the highest buildings in those districts 1983 um uh our zoning code allowed you to do 60 feet from grade in the R3 zoning District many of those older condo buildings built around that time or built to 60 feet from grade where you have ground floor par one floor parking and then five floor of Condominiums above it after that they chopped the height down to three stories over parking or 40 feet from grade and what happened after they did that that led to people applying for variances when they came in with a new condo development to because basically that height limit was unusable it was designed to break zoning and that basically led to people applying for variances to go around it which is n good because you want consistent outcomes and you don't want that leading to that and even examples like uh around here like the Sereno condominium which is what more like what a modern five stories over parking building would be like had to get a variance to allow for uh Bally 60 feet from BFE to do a modern five-story over parking condominium I guess the the challenge is if any of those condominium buildings had to be rebuilt down there they would most likely be taller than what currently exists because of uh the base flood elevation plus four feet of freeboard and people expect higher ceilings in Condominiums compared to what they expected in the 70s and early 80s and it's kind of a challenge reconciling that because you're not going to be able to build a onetoone recreation of a 1970s six-story Condo building like you're not you're just not going to build that um so I mean even something like the sanos is 10 foot taller than any of those older ones down there so I kind of re because most for the most part the heights were agreeable about like the 30 four the 44 feet depending on zoning District or lot size but kind of reconciling those Heights for any of those six-story condo buildings that were built before the zoning change or stuff like Barefoot Beach Club that was done with a PD or or U madir Bay Zone with variance we understand a lot of people don't like those Heights but there has to be kind of some sort of Middle Ground between the 44 feet from DFE and and uh something like befa beach club or madira Bay because we understand that those are too tall but allowing to be able to at least build those five story resident five stories over parking or six stories from grade residential condominium buildings would would probably be important to allow people to be able to build back within reason on on a lot large enough they handle it most likely at least half an acre or larger which there aren't really any vacant lots that large down there so it' be more of if someone wanted to rebuild those buildings how did you um excuse me how did you establish the four feet of freeboard how did you most towns is to yeah and we were to um prior to that 2021 um and we had to make we had to adopt the new firm I think it was like August 2021 something around there and that was about the same time that the vulnerability um assessment or study was coming out from the county um remember they were wanting us to adopt it but we didn't really we didn't have time to review it in depth and like how we would how would it affect the community so that's why we had adopted a higher freeorn back then um and we still haven't adopted the county vulnerability study I don't know if we will um it's definitely probably going to be something that we discuss um when we do our watershed management plan I'm sure that that'll be discussed probably at that time so I have a couple of other questions um as far as the 20 feet of height for accessory could that be reduced to let's say 16 ft uh we could look at that that's not in this section of of the code um that we're talking about it's a different section so it' be a different ordinance but um yeah that's definitely something that we could look at it as well yeah that will contribute to obviously not as much height you know but so the next question has to do with the what sort of flexibility would a PD plan or a special magistry have when it comes to heighten setback uh like I said before the variance process now you have to meet all six criteria um before I I can't remember when it was changed but it was a majority of the six criteria now it's all of the six criteria and something like High wouldn't wouldn't really fall within that criteria going back to doing variances either we we need to I guess set a Line in the Sand about the the height thing because either people can build back to the height they got or they have or or we need to tell people they can't build as tall and they they don't get their height that they currently have and kind of just make a decision because it seems like they're relying on well I mean the PD is a whole different beast and that would be a separate ordinance to to change that because right now with the PD height it it's it's based off of comparing to other PD projects and it's kind well so and which this ordinance wouldn't really touch this would be more the specific zoning like like you for a PD you would have to rezone it anyways all right was there any uh comments specifically to Boardwalk area that anybody would want to add in we can go so I'll be jumping back and forth so hopefully this won't be too painful let's see so we've done on Boardwalk now we're going to go to commercial core this is the next character District um it's existing C1 zoning so the setbacks currently are with the front none side 10 ft on one side uh in rear is 25 ft the height from design flood elevation is 34 ft and this is where the commercial core is so just an example on a few different lots of what that could look like um here you're measuring from the design flood elevation 34 feet which can look very different if you don't have a flat roof as you can see uh and then grabbing the tallest building there 65 and a half feet from grade or it's hard to read a little over 55 ft from design flood elevation so this so this is oh takes a second to load up so this is an example of a building that was done via variances back then before uh uh we changed it to not allow for that um so that's what I mean where like a lot of these lower Heights weren't really workable for what really needed to be built um and as you can see they they hit a lot or they they used like like design and Architectural like uh features to reduce the bulk of the height because as you can see the six-story parking structure is hidden behind this two to three story kind of older style like like downtown Commercial Street so there are ways we can write in the code to make make height less less bulky and imposing by requiring it to be set back a certain amount just like the step backs for uh the second floors as you can see that building that we all know right here and it really gives the visualization that there's multiple buildings these are about like 40 ft which is like your typical lot down in John's Pass in this area now where's the property line there is that it's actually um so do we still have the property priser up show you it's a little weird there actually um so this John's way they actually own that so the property line jogs right here so they own this lot and then it also goes I can click it over to the boardwalk as well but the overhang is still within the property yes yeah but we can write the code to allow something um similar to what's what's there it's a 4 foot walkway correct uh under here I think it's no on top oh on top I'm not sure how how wide is I five think the sidewalks like eight feet six uh let's see this one could actually yeah sorry I can't read it text is too small yeah I am not sure exactly how how wide this walkway is up here but we could probably find it in the building plans but yeah it's important it's on their property though so U so just some of the buildings that are in this commercial core and you can see this this building back here this uh blue building that steps back um the more stories it has and then the back it has camouflage parking as well it's really under the building um is where you see the the par or you don't see the parking but if you drive on Fisherman's alley that's that's how you get into the parking in this building so we can kind of go back to here with the commercial core I think it's also important to remember that you do have these like smaller streets cutting through it so compared to other uh Beach communities in pelis county that have some larger Lots where you can do large large build buildings John's Pass doesn't have that it has these these um like like nice little Alleyways and stuff so you end up even if you're allowed to uh combine the Lots but You' still would end up having to do separate buildings on on those lots and you wouldn't be able to build a bul iier singular because you have these public rways cutting through it so kind of the the gist of what we've heard throughout those three workshops um we had a tie between the 34 feet from DFE and 55 ft which is the highest building so um we did have some discussions on the acreage count and maybe having uh if it's you're equal to or less than half an acre doing 34 ft um if you're greater than half an acre doing 55 ft so something like that so we're probably going to play with the idea of um acreage and and the height in that way um other other things that came out was um outdoor cafes uh pedestrian activity um making things pedestrian friendly definitely does design guidelines and keeping that Main Street look uh and then also looking at those uh second floor or any higher stories an increased setback kind of similar to that garage um and then definitely if there's any garage having having it camouflaged to where it looks like that uh Main Street Main Street look and breaking up that uh facade as well all right and then a lot of the setbacks that we heard um see a lot of it was similar um but we also discussed on the corner Lots go to lose this but on there are some Corner Lots so um also taking that in consideration let just show you the corner lots and making sure that those are pedestrian friendly as well um just with the setback so really looking into that and taking that into consideration and there were also comments on uh writing in the code to make sure that Fisherman's alley is the rear um especially looking at those those Corner Lots um over here and keeping that pedestrian friendly atmosphere that's kind of outome of the street in front of that parking lot they own that street yes John's John's way believe it's called so very odd yeah yeah and then as I'm looking yeah the the alleyway running through there is owned by the other property Fisherman's alley are you talking about Fisherman's alley yeah Fisherman's alley is ours we we own that no the that Alleyway right at the bottom of your screen I know Fisherman's Alleyway continues on through until there John's way and I guess we vacate maybe vacated you do have a boardwalk place they don't own but they do own that this road right here the John's way but yeah with the setbacks you can kind of see here just making sure that we take these Corner Lots into consideration um making sure that they're maintain their pedestrian friendly atmosphere and design so that's definitely something that will be written in uh the zoning as well and then did anybody have any additional comments for commercial core this this area okay we can go on we're easy all right so we're going across Gulf Boulevard to John's Pass Resort in here we have the R3 zoning so it depends on your use and then also the width um for the setbacks so front is 20 feet if you're single family to Triplex multif family Hotel commercial is 25 ft um your side yard setbacks if it's single family to Triplex um less than 50 feet wide it's 5 feet uh single family to Triplex greater than 50 ft wide and multif family hotel and Commercial is 10 ft rear is 25 ft or if you're on the water or Beach it's the cccl your height is 44 feet from DFE and there is a special requirement that hotels or multifam at a buts residential there's that additional 5 foot setback and in this area we see kind of the older condos it we do have a a lot of mix um and you'll see in the transitional area too um of smaller buildings and then you do have also like these larger condos here uh like beach place and surf song and like what Andrew was talking about earlier a lot of those were built before the modern zoning code um which had different standards that exceed what what our standards are today for the height so then we just have some ex examples um just plucking this this property here so the height like Marcy was talking about earlier uh we're seeing an average of 11 to 44 11 to 14 feet per story um so 44 feet could really be somewhere between three stories or four stories so just keep that in mind when we're talking about height and this was what beach yeah and this this shows the example the 60 ft from grade standard that existed back then so there a lot of the older condo buildings are built to this standard shown on on the screen and so you can see the putting in the current um BF and then 4 foot of freeboard uh it's 50 feet 8 in and then here's where we have that allowance of like mechanical units and things that exceeds that height so if you measure that then it's really what 7 almost 73t um but we wouldn't measure up to that yeah but this is another example of how if someone tried to if this had to be rebuilt like this this got destroyed during a hurricane the challenge is the build of five story overp parking or six story from grade structure to Modern standards it's probably going to be at least five to 10 feet taller from D DFE and I I don't know what the base flood elevation was back then but it'll end up being at least significantly taller the compensate for the additional height from the the additional free board and then the additional height per floor and that's kind of the challenge reconciling that because we understand about uh concerns related to height and it's kind of kind of like a fine line between allowing people to be able to build back to kind of what around what they had while making sure we don't allow for like high rises you'd see in in other cities which we we don't want um but but we that's kind of the challenge trying to find a the a good balance between protecting that but not opening the door for for Stuff um the community doesn't want either and then it's also important to keep in mind that there are smaller Lots um and lots that are not on the beach so just kind of what those setbacks look like as well I'm keeping that in mind while we're doing the zoning so I have a question in terms of a hurricane God forbid let's say if a property is destroyed would they have to conform to these regulations or can they be grandfathered in for what was there before cuz this is is act of God and how would you treat that Andrew knew exactly where I was going so so if we go to the non-conforming section in the code uh it really varies on your use and if it's considered a catastrophic loss or if it's just an involuntary loss there's a little bit of a difference um if it's catastrophic you're going to have an area and it's going to be a declared disaster in that area so like a hurricane um something like that we're involuntary say someone someone's building cotton fire um kind of a oneoff so there's a slight variation between those two sections in the non-conforming code and it depends on your type of use um Andrew's getting to it right now so this is a catastrophic law so for multifam hotel motel motor lodges uh they can be rebuilt to the same density height and side setbacks but you have to conform to the front setbacks um the cccl flood plane regulations fire parking codes um and then other other requirements effective the hyp part is what concerns me because as I've sh with the example of that older building versus something newer that was built in the last 20 years like the Sano you have about a 10 foot height difference between the old building versus the newer six story from grade building so in our in our currently in our code it has to be the exact same height but from from but from current flood plane regulations so would it be possible to build uh uh five stories over parking or six stories from great building within these limitations like that that could be a challenge of course the state can also have a say so with Fe they would I'm not sure if they would have to you know meet the new FEMA requirements or not yeah yeah they would yeah we require it so the new flood plane regulations which or like the FEMA um regulations so you can see that it's a slightly different based off of your use and then here multif family in R1 R2 on a non-con fing lot so a little different there as well um commercial so a little different and then here's the reestablishment after involuntary loss so if it's damage greater than 50% um it can be repaired or reconstruct reconstructed in a manner which guarantees each dwelling unit tourist unit and all permitted accessories uses can be restored to the same square footage which existed to the same day so based on that you would still have to meet setbacks um height it might be a little might be a little diff difficult in some certain situations because it says restored to the same square footage which can you get that square footage if you know now we have different height regulations so it's a little it's a little tricky um we have Lu we haven't been in the situation of using the section in the code but if we need to use it we want to make sure that it is it's usable so we have a long list of things that we need to do non-conforming section is one of those so you will be seeing this in the future it's not going to be within the next month or two uh because we definitely need to get through the John's Pass Village but we understand that there's some concerns in the non-conforming section so you will eventually be seeing this okay so in John's Pass Resort there's a variety of different buildings so going to the spreadsheet the outcomes here we are John's past Resort so tallying up the the heights that we that we received um it was pretty close between allowing the tallest building in the section versus what the code reads um so there this also might be an opportunity to explore that um lot acreage threshold um with the height but that's just one idea of of going forward and then a lot of the setbacks we uh comments that we received just to maintain the current code with R3 is there any place that talks about ISR yes and the ISR um that was adopted and the land use was 85 85% and we also carry that into zoning as well yeah um I think all right and let's see yeah just looking at these other things um possible design standards we definitely want design standards and say like the boardwalk area commercial core area traditional Village so those like touristy areas definitely design guidelines there um there was some discuss discussion of possibly carrying those design standards um in this section as well as like the transitional District so just everywhere so um we may do something like that um so that was one of the comments um and then allowing smaller properties to be rebuilt so that really leads us to relooking at the non-conforming section to really protect those smaller properties um and make sure that everything in our nonconforming section of the code is up Tod date and makes sense and really protects as Property Owners what one interesting thing uh in the in the master plan um they they did have proposed Land Development regulations for like the zoning districts uh down there and along the beach side that that W they weren't adopted by the city but they were proposed in the plan and it's interesting R3 zoning that it did propose to go back to the old height standard from pre-1983 in it depending on on lot size so it's even interesting even back then it kind of brought up how the that the the reduction just didn't work and it didn't lead to the the desired outcomes that so in even now a lot of the heights that were kind of being discussed were are fairly similar to what was it proposed the master plan back then 20 20 years ago all right Jenny yeah your design standards um eventually you're going to pass all of this and people are going to come in and start building what EX exactly do you mean by design standards are you going to put something in the code that they're going to have to have some kind of yes and then also we're looking at having some standards and then some guidelines of of say like materials and things so that wouldn't be you have to adhere to this but these are kind of the guidelines of what we would like it to look like so almost like a mix of both of those that's what we envision right now because as as of right now the the planning board doesn't really have a say in that that's correct and we would like a say in that and I don't know why we don't have a say in it um and we don't have design guidelines or design standards right now anywhere in our code so that would be that would be why because moving forward and I I think the panel would all agree um this is very important extremely important this either makes it or breaks it and what happens in the next 5 to 10 years as far as all the development that happens down there is going to be a win or it's going to be a lose if it's not attractive people are going to keep going um and that's my concern because I'm proud to live here I'm proud to be here and you know I'm trying to figure out how to put the best foot forward with the planning board and you know so that we make the right decisions in the right look and because there's two buildings on Gulf Boulevard that was just built um they're exactly the same the only thing they changed was the Second Story railing they're right up they're across from caddies just and the that that developer is doing that in Treasure Island and he's doing it in in St Pete Beach and for a little extra money that could look a lot more attractive and that's what I'm getting at I'm not I'm not trying to overspend the developer I just want what is right for madira beach and the look that we want and the look that we want to keep because right now um you know I see a lot of things that have to be changed yeah and um that's what we were I kind of briefly talked about that a little earlier of possibly having like a threshold of you know uh maybe so much so many square footage or something like that um definitely if it's a new building something on on those lines would have to go to Planning Commission to act as kind of like your board of Architectural Review so we're looking into that I think once we can bring a draft of the zoning and like really having this in front of you as this is what it would look like we can really get down to okay well where do we want that where does the design guidelines look like um so Andrew and I have been tirelessly working on that but I think having the actual draft is going to be easier to for for everybody on the Planning Commission and boc to really look at that to see where those maybe those thresholds are or what those design guides guidelines look like um I think that'll be easier way to really review it you know going forward I think what's also there is more Community involvement and you've got seven people here different than the plan than the Board of Commissioners and you guys do an excellent job I mean you know but in terms of getting another set of seven eyes seven sets of eyes on the planning stuff and that's where I think John and I'm certainly here as well well we should be seeing more of the planning stuff is I think what he's getting yeah we don't see anything in other words they can go downstairs get a building permit and we never see the designs we never see the building we don't see anything all of a sudden we'll drive around there it is and and that's perfect example like last month I was bad wrapping bad mouthing a a builder that we all know and I put my foot in my mouth because then I found out at one of the workshops you know I see this building as I go past John's Pass it's sticking up and it's a square looking building so I was sitting there the other day and a Gentleman turned to me and said have you seen the finishes on that building and I said no I said as far as I'm concerned it's horrible because it's a square building and they basically said to me when he gets that done you're going to be in an awe because I've seen the finished plants we never saw the Finish plans we don't you know Michael goes by that building a lot and so does the other Michael but we never saw the finished plans the second thing is we have uh KS building the restaurant which looks fantastic water side but 80% of this business is not going to be water side it's going to be driving up to it so I asked them to change the facade so it looks and looks better what I'm getting at is you have two buildings that are going to be finished well you don't even have one started but the plants if we could take the two of those buildings and anybody that comes before us basically saying this is this is what we're looking for this is the caliber of buildings that we want to see there and make it so that's you know so I think the thing with that would be really review re-reviewing the site plan process because right now there's a threshold for when it comes to Planning Commission um and a lot of those buildings I'm assuming those those buildings that you're talking to talking about those did not meet the threshold for a major site plan review and the major site plan reviews those are the ones that go to Planning Commission everything else underneath a minor or intermediate those don't aren required to go to Planning Commission so we could I would say not in John smth Village but if you'all wanted to do that we could relook at the site plan process and seeing if we want to change those threshold so then you would see more of those buildings um and then also we don't have design guidelines anywhere in the city so there's nothing that even staff can can say oh you have to have this certain feel you have to have these certain finishes it has to have these certain step step backs you know say on the second or third floor so a lot of what we see is a box you know and um that's really all that we can review we can't um go away from the code and say oh you have to have these finishes on this building so we don't have those design guidelines in place now but we definitely want to have those in place in John's Pass Village fantastic and I think the uh Village has done a good job of taking care of itself with with the touristy Vibe and the look there and right down to the signs that we've discussed that they're non-conforming with a lot of the signs but it adds to the character and the charm but I agree some of the buildings that go up on G Boulevard they don't come before us if they're not planed development or they're not going for variances and they're just within the guidelines that are in place we never see it and then we get a shoe box or well then even what staff can say is very limited it's we base it on the code it's always on the code so and if the code doesn't have anything in there then we can't require it so is there some way we can change the code that's the big the big mcgilla here yes we can always change it um so right now I would say definitely get through John's pass's Village zoning we have to adopt that right now the area is kind of in limbo of oh your land use says this but your zoning says something slightly different um so that's what we're trying to get through now definitely having design guidelines sounds like the board would like design guidelines everywhere in John's past Village great feedback so we will definitely have that in in the zoning um we'll kind of look at those thresholds of design guidelines we can always revisit that just because it's in the code doesn't mean you can can never touch it again um and then something in the future we can look at is a site planning process looking at those thresholds and if we want to adjust those as well um great going back to John's Pass Village zoning um so John's Pass Resort oh oh we just went over that so let me go to the next section uh let's see where intensity mix use so this is on Pelican this is also R3 zoning so kind of what that looks like which we already just visited tallest building which I'm sure a lot of you all have seen going up is the 44 ft um above DFE and here on Pelican you do have a mix of single families um and then you have have like these older Beach cottages are used for rentals so going to the spreadsheet intensity mix use uh yeah that first day we ran out of time we were not giving us we gave us um a lot of time for each discussion which was great but uh then we kind of ran out of time at the very end uh but a lot of of a lot of what we saw was to maintain the current code we did have some comments of reducing that height um but the majority was just matching the current code and then um some of the comments you can see here allow for sidewalks install trash compactors which the city's looking into and trying really clean up Pelican one thing we're able to to do while we're revising our ldrs is we we did look at other cities like Denon for example that do have require step backs above certain floors so one option on the low intensity mix use if we want to have some the upper floors after the second or third floor be Ste back we can do that um so we we have have the chance to uh update that um based on on kind of consider like about overly Square buildings this is the one I got the most questions about which one traditional or the low intensity Pelican uh yes because Pelican Lane has been a disaster and it's got awful for since the when they put it in basically but uh I think Mo people are most con uh confused as it seems like you know I live in that District so 129th and 131st I was bombarded with questions and I couldn't make the workshops but I told them to go so I'm not sure if you had a do know like did you have positive negative feedback from 129th and 131st that stood out to you or no I know that we had some people that live on 129th um but because they're going to be the most affected by these changes yeah especially the one way people have a lot of concerns with that like which direction and you know I just said go to the workshop because I don't have the answers well and I think on Pelican it was I mean you can see based on this uh spreadsheet that a lot of them to maintain the current code and really look at cleaning up Pelican and um you know back I everybody's for cleaning it up so that that was really the majority of what I've heard Andrew Marcy do you remember yeah that that's pretty much it just uh more or less maintain it this the same certain like art architectural design and and cleaning up especially because of all those like dumpsters and stuff on on the commercial side of it um but for the most part like I I mean the R3 so it's currently zoned R3 so so that building being built that that's what's that's what the R3 zoning allows so that was built uh by right it's a it's a a single single unit uh but M multi-story building that that um can be used in like um night so R3 zoning does a lot of nightly rentals um but yeah that's probably one of the first newer buildings built on Pelican and I don't know since I've been here but yeah it meets the the current zoning yeah I feel like we didn't get um as many comments on on this District in Pelican mostly just clean up and um consolidating the trash which the city's looking at installing trash compactors um back there to hopefully alleviate some of that I think the gist of the concern were that we're going to be affected by that that those 129th and 131st people that they got to drive through it to get to home and there uh you know so probably a lot of them you know are snowbirds so they might not have made the workshops but uh also some confusion U from uh related to the R2 zoning District um that that we did not touch and doesn't relate to John's Pass but there was some confusion related to that and uh nightly rentals that I think some people thought it the meeting was related to that when it when it wasn't so there there was unfortunately some confusion about that what's the 20 to 25 front set backs it's either 20 or 25 oh I can't sorry took me a minute so it's it's really written right here um so single family duplex Triplex is 20 ft in the front if you're building a multif family hotel or commercial it's 25 ft there's just some uh like on the work worksheet was a little bit too many too many words to fit in there so okay okay so we're g to go to traditional Village um C1 zoning just like the commercial core so setbacks in the front none side is 10 feet on one side rear is 25 ft and then the height from design flood elevation is 34t so just some examples um obviously it depends on like what type of roof you have um and so it could be two or three stories um and then possibly looking at like uh step backs for the second and above floors and a lot of these buildings were built a while ago and so we we're having a hard time finding building plans but we did find a building plan uh for this elevator shaft so as you can see here um taking in consideration the um current DFE I can't even read that was it 3 31 I think it's a little over 31 feet so and that's in front of like the Mad Beach uh Brewing so there may be some buildings slightly taller than that but about that you know about that height maybe lower than that so around 31 the current code is 34 feet um so going to the sheet A lot of it was um maintaining current code with the height um now there is there was one consideration of possibly um making that higher if it's the use as a garage um or if you have a certain threshold of of land um but mostly it was you know if if you're a garage then possibly getting higher than that 34t yeah Robin at the next boc Workshop meeting uh I guess we'll be giving an update about uh the proposed parking garage on on the city own land down there and that that's that was the consideration for the additional height was to relate to the parking structure and the parking structure would have retail at grades it would match uh the surrounding area because we want to make sure this they'll have that interactive nice pedestrian friendly in Main Street look um so some of the setbacks um a lot of them were to meet current code but we do have that one um on the side is like 10 feet on one side so there was a lot of comments of of uh getting rid of that so it' be zero on the front zero on the sides and then we have a variety of the rear setbacks and then also looking at that step back for those higher stories so you don't come up with one huge block it's not what you want and also doing the design guidelines of course I would say those are the main outcomes of the traditional Village and did anyone have any comments on that section okay I know it's getting a little late so um so transitional uh this is on both sides of Gulf so we see the R3 on this speech side and then you have a mix of um there's one little sliver that's R2 back here it's already developed um C4 and C3 which both of those zoning uh C3 and C4 look very similar with their setbacks and height Jenny um if I may um where does parking requirements come to play how do you so parking requirements is in a separate section than this so there are um and that's something that we talked to kimley Horn about possibly looking when they're doing the master plan is looking at parking especially in John's Pass Village and um seeing what works what works in more Main Street traditional areas so they'll definitely be looking at our parking standards okay thank you right right right now in John's Pass Village just the Village area um there is in our code we do have a reduction in parking requirement where it's half of what it is compared to the rest of the city outside of the The Village though um on on the beach side and it requires the full amount of parking we require everywhere else in the city um so that that's what currently is in our code thank you Andrew um and then here's some examples of the C3 and C4 zoning um all this is built out we have madira Bay on on these uh really on this side for the most part people just want to keep it like the same as like the current R3 uh which is fine the only older building there was that's that's taller than that was this a time share building that was built in the 80s that that meets that 60 feet from grade um everything else was either done like madira Bay with a variance or uh with a a PD like with barfa beach club and and this area is a very sensitive area because there is a mix of some single family residential um in general that's kind of The Challenge on the beach side that is a mix of like you have everything from single family residential to condos and and some Hotel uses mixed in so but um for the most part like there was agreement to keep it at that 44 feet from DFE and uh not not allow for the heights of that um for Barefoot Beach those PDS and variances those would kind of be exceptions and uh not to go up to that height so Barefoot Beach is uh 63 feet 7 in yeah cuz because the other John's pest Resort had had the most of the the taller buildings that were built to zoning requirements pre 1983 so that it it' make more sense to allow for additional height there because there already are buildings that were built by right back in the day to those height standards well in this area outside of this one building that's the time share building the other ones were done as basically as exceptions or or res Zing for so a lot of it was just maintaining current code um you can go to that page but that's so that was the outcome intensity transition there was a majority of it was just maintaining the current code so that was the outcome of those three meetings I think they went really well um having those round tables so we'll definitely do that in the future with more um with our future workshops and when we go through the master plan process um really doing those round taes I think it got everybody talking and discussing what setbacks really are what height really is what's important in each district I think we had a great outcome and um we're very pleased with all the information that we got from from that good job and was there anything else that anybody would like to add to this and hopefully we'll be able to get you a draft the only thoughts or concern I have is when it comes to height and you measure to the peak of the roof when it comes to hip roof that's a good thing however I think developers may say well let's do flat roofs and so you can get extra height and I think we would be encouraging to build more flat roofs than hip roofs I don't know if there's any way we could mitigate for that yeah there's there's uh I think it's R1 and R2 so more of our residential we measure from the eve and then there's um certain pitch and then also a high limitation at the very tippity top of that roof so that's kind of what we're flooring um so we don't get all these boxes and flat roofs yeah one one idea how I kind of see is almost like a layer cake where you have the one floor parking at grade you have the like four the five stories of livable floors and that's where the livable floors are and then above the eveline is whatever roof architectural stuff that isn't livable space so you have this kind of layer cake to keep every everything nice and kind of compact and not allow because the problem is when you don't have specific language like if you look at bareford beach club's development agreement it says five stories over one floor parking but the but the rooftop is air conditioned so technically it really six stories over parking but they kept it vague enough because of but even though the the rooftop has an air conditioned space which we would treat as another story um but it's important to have specific language in there to kind of keep things contained so if you only want those five floors of liveable over one floor parking you really need to be specific to what and then what can be above it to just being the architectural stuff because because you guys don't want the flat roof stuff happening but you also don't want like sneaking like rooftop stuff up there that that exceeds that height so it's important to be very specific in the language okay so is there any more conversations or questions about this John's Pass Village okay so next item is shows old business but is there any new business to be discussed at this point no if not um staff presentation no this is that's all we have it's enough presentation okay the next meeting is June 3 Monday June 3r at 6 o'clock we are joined at 803 for