##VIDEO ID:2jDMp3PBe1U## 7:05 and I will call the Manchester um finance committee meeting to order on Thursday November 21st we have with us in the room Mory kraton and myself Sarah melish and on Zoom we have Andy olderman and Dean NS Our Town administrative Greg F spel and town account and I'll call the SX finance committee to order at 7:05 and we have uh Mike Flynn Nina McKinnon myself Ben B we have our town accountant Michaela Nolan on the line okay all right then I believe from the school committee we have annelyn Mitchell and we have Chris Reed are you from the school committee and Jake is what's your last name Foster Jake Foster okay oh I'm sorry I thought you knew Jake and oh I've met him before don't worry but I confused to go over the name one more time and um Pam I don't know yeah hi Sarah I don't know how to pronounce your name I guess I'll never learn bden like the college and Michelle Cresta the um Finance um person at school is on that looks like it okay so I guess we been introduced each other do we need to do any more introductions I don't think so everybody knows each other oh kind of pretty much we come here when it rains Sarah every time we come here it rains I planned it that way it's only been two months pretty much Ben Ben asked for the date I know it's his fault of course it is he she wanted into his busy schedule so better rain than snow yeah exactly so I think we wanted to start with um the fiscal year 26 Town up operating budget Outlook um each town it's kind of early in our process but we kind of have a sense and I don't know where you stand in your process and what your sense is for your budget for fiscal year 26 yeah we we've started we've started our budgeting process um and we are uh meeting as liaison with the Departments assessing their needs and getting a gauge on where they are we do we do have some um some things coming up we've got two Union contracts being negotiated this year we have um uh water infrastructure which we're starting uh but we have 2 mil $2.2 million uh not on the tax rate that is being used to start that process and we have 47 years to replace all those pipes so we have plenty of time for federal earmarks and grants and State uh things our um I think one of our bigger issues is going to be wage and salary schedule uh particularly with the fire department uh as you may be aware we are a fully call fire department and um although we have a wonderful number on our roster only certain numbers of people show up um to answer calls and many of the people on our roster are actually not even residents of Essex so and they're uh very low on the wage and salary schedule so what we need what we're really are fighting of course is a full-time fire department so we'll be working closely with the chief and our chief is a stifen in position it's not a full-time it's not a part-time it's a stien and uh two Deputy Chiefs so we'll be working with them closely we're going to build out a full-time department and then start backing into um what we need to do to actually keep our call Department going we want to keep it going for as long as possible um it they do a great job at um covering Essex uh both from a fire uh Department standpoint and at uh EMT standpoint our ambulances are self-funded so it's a lot of our Capital costs end up coming from um grants uh that they apply for and I'm uh getting compiling a list of everything that they've received a grant for because Town doesn't understand how many dollars how many pieces of equipment come through grants and not our capital budget so I think our fire department is probably one of our uh biggest uh hot buttons uh right now uh Capital costs uh the tanker truck that will probably be on our fall I mean our Springtown meeting uh it's way past due for replacement but we did send it to the shop so um we're hoping to to eek that out and we do have another um I think engine one needs to be replaced as well unfortunately we're in a bad cycle this sounds funny we're on a bad cycle but all of our vehicles are almost 30 30 years old they were all purchased uh at the same time and they were not all purchased as new vehicles because we had to buy vehicles that would fit into our old fire station and then we need to retrofit them to actually get them in the building so now that we have a public safety building um you know we slowed down the pace a little bit I think of replacing vehicles but now we're at that point so um our other big um looming uh issue I think will be the the bler sewer upgrade so uh that's coming it will be a $6 million uh Bill to Essex about $300,000 over 20 years and um there are going to be different ways that we are going to fund that but it is not it's not a bonding situation it is an actual $300,000 bill each year so U we are under discussions in town on how we're going to handle that Jody may I just ask um the tanker truck that's the one that there's only like five in the whole state and we helped with all the recent fires that we are helping multiple towns correct so there are five tankers in Eastern Massachusetts Eastern M sorry excuse me and my suggestion was that we apply for Grant two years running and we did not get the grant we I think we're pretty shocked that we didn't get the grant um and I think we need to start uh going up the lad no pun intended here but to see if we can get some help from the state um um just the recent buyes the mutual Aid there I think they are now uh claiming proclaimed a state of emergency so we'll get reimbursed but all we're paying for all of those hours out of our budget to help other towns in particular because we have a tanker truck so with with only one in five in Eastern Massachusetts it seems a tough ask to have 1,200 households pay for the half million dollar piece of equipment when it TR Services many communities but I don't know what kind of traction we'll get on that we have we don't have a tanker Greg no we don't have a tanker specifically the both the engine and the ladder have a a tank on them but not as large as a standard on tanker um yeah I I think that the Manchester operating budget I'm assuming Greg that we're going to come in around the 2 and a half% piece for operating yeah certainly that's the the goal not to go over that um one of the uh the drivers that'll be for essics as well as health insurance that's looking like we're we're returning back to double digit um increases for health insurance so that's going to be that's always a challenge um and then um certainly our utilities uh just the cost of chemicals have just skyrocketed so Water and Sewer utilities but you know that's covered by the fees we charge but nonetheless people feel that out of their left pocket versus their right pocket but it's it's all part of the pockets that people have um so that'll that'll put some pressure on them um and again similar to many communities it's it's really capital in in facility planning and trying to keep keep up with the old pipes that keep breaking so when you have pipes at 133 years old they they they like to break so um I would say those are the three things that come to mind as sort of the Forefront for us and certainly Capital being kind of in a league of its own as we look at some of those numbers are are pretty daunting in the years ahead and trying to come up with a plan that spaces it out and allows us to um to do some bonding that doesn't over overb taxpayers yeah I think we we're working on a 25e plan and we have $250 Million worth Capital expenses to 250 million of capital expenses to spread out over 25 years yeah well we have um it's good divider at least that's we have the PFA treatment um which requires us perhaps to build we know we have to build a new Building at Lincoln Street well the question is do we also have to build one at graly pond because we have two components to our system um we're looking at a new DPW um building since they don't really have a building right now their equipment sits outside all um dredging dredging yeah we we spend Millions on dredging and that's one of the size of relief when we pass the mvta zoning because without complying with that we would have no grants for dredging and usually we get 50% for dredging it's SE sewer treatment plant eventually plane right that's a little concerning yeah um and our um police and fire stations flood at high tights yeah I think the last time we were here you said to me the first time we were met you said well you have that expensive public safety and the second time we met you said you were so smart to build that public safety building because our fire department flooded the police department and the town hall flooded so you know be careful what you wish for right did you get that again this weekend past weekend with the tides it did come into the parking lot it didn't get into the buildings but the whole the it comes up the boat ramp and all the whole area behind the legion floods right um you know and probably probably okay on the peak tie and the April tides and all that it's when the velocity the water is moving with storm storm surge so it's you have a high tide and then you have water being shoved through Salem Bay and it just kind of piles up in this Harbor and comes up and up and up in I think it was in January of 2015 we had a snowstorm and everyone has to get their cars off the streets so everyone on my street parked in the town lot and every single car in the town lot was totaled oh because the water and ice right there were icebergs in the parking lot yeah so I think that that's the worst we've had but they'll sometimes they'll put signs out at the the entrance to the town lot and say you know king tide or something you know it's going to flood so addressing that is in the 250 million no actually 250 million is mostly facilities it doesn't include climate resiliency really um and we have to do something to the Ste plant to create BMS around it or move it or we don't know theoretic plan is to I guess in you know Harden it yeah where can talk more about this but moving it is even more crazy I think I've read that in the minutes that and we've looked at alternatives to go to other towns and but it's not workable I mean it's doing pipelines underwater and it's just like they don't have capacity it's like 70 million to relocate it you know so many and what's your estimate to build a wall don't know we don't no we're we're we're projecting 45 million for resilien C project sea walls and culs how much 25 no 45 45 million 30 million for public safety building and Town Hall rehab DPW garage is 22 million pfas and bridging is 23 million Water and Sewer upgrades at 7.5 million we have only two what is it two I two3 of the houses in Manchester on sua all of those are Title Five okay so we're in on the coastline right well we have 1,200 households and we have 847 um sewer betterments it's about the same it's about the same so it's about the same yeah I would have guessed it was less that's very interesting well the density is downtown so that makes sense yeah and 6 like 650 are connected so um like like Manchester we're holding to two and a half percent and we have been we've been funding at 2 and a half% or less and most mainly less uh for to meet the school budget uh for the last three years maybe four yeah I mean it's been less than % uh in terms of town Services um uh to accommodate the apportionment of the school budget um and then also we we've had a little bit of amnesty in terms of things like the insurance as Greg was referencing but uh so we have to Sho shring things to accommodate the um the uh the school primarily and we um we've we've concluded all of our Union contracts right Greg we did police right yes so we've got we have another year on them before we have to okay yeah so we don't have any contracts coming up this year unfortunately we have two you win some and you lose some so I think you know one of the questions that kind of comes across our mind sometimes is are there any collaboration opportunities you know between the town either for services or equipment and infrastructure like you talk about a tanker you always that opportunity for collaboration um and I don't know if there's any services that are an opportunity for collaboration or not yeah I think um I think the differences in our services uh is really that um your the services that you speak of council and aging you have a full-time director we have a part-time director um we have a building but it's it's a very small building um we don't have transportation for them right now uh we do have uh two other part-time employees but other than that our volunteers put as many hours in as our paid employees for our Council and aging our Harbor Master is part-time uh with two part-time assistants but in general they're not even able to fill all the shifts in the summer we have a full-time clam Warden and we have a um two parttime assistance um anything what else you know you have a full-time fire department we have an A call fire department and I think we're just fighting the full-time fire department because we know it's going to be a minimum of million dollars on our 10,000 yeah and we're we're really happy because um our our new fire chief who is a call fir fighter in eics um you have you have our Jake yes has been um very good at reinstituting our call firefighter Force because the last fire chief eliminated it because he said he couldn't get people and so Jake has done a good job of you know it's not big it's like six people maybe but it's helpful it's huge helpful yeah I think particularly with all of these forest fires and stuff that's just giv us more Personnel to I mean maybe one way to think about collaboration is is people but equipment and I wonder if there's things on our capital budget things we're doing with equipment Rolling Stock that sort of thing and things that you're duplicating and doubling up on that maybe would work and sometimes that's easier because equipment doesn't talk it just is you know it just is you go from there um but I don't know it just seems like there's so many shared needs and you know like so much of New England everybody's duplicating things sometimes only a mile apart which is crazy well we're we're both using Regional 911 um but we each have a ladder truck but we each have a ladder truck well you have a bigger ladder truck we have a brand new one we do too but yours is bigger oh okay it's very pretty it is very pretty I I know what that price tag was we couldn't afford that one but we have a really nice ladder truck but you know our our departments are small and the ex the equipment is incredibly expensive yeah but we roll like whatever engine water engine two rolls at every call for us so you know some of these things are critically important and the tanker in Essex is critically important because a third of the people don't have fire hydrants so it truly affects Essex even from an insurance standpoint for our residents if we don't have a tanker truck we have a two-fold problem um but it is a solid concept we do share some equipment with Rockport some of these specialized pieces of equipment so maybe the you know the uh followup is the next specialized piece of equipment you see if there's enough capacity to to um to share it absolutely um I think we share the um that specialized crane that cleans out the the gutters the drains in the spring so so again if it's going to sit in a warehouse for you know 10 months a year exactly you might as well leverage the fixed cost yeah so I think we have an in I think we should take our inventories and compare our inventories at a minimum yeah uh to see I I know we have an inventory of all of our equipment the age of the equipment and you do too um for you need it for insurance anyway but um yes you know start there oh and we also have a our police chief is retiring so um you know we're in the search for a new police chief at this point so um J do we have an update on that the tanker truck are we going to be able to baby that for a couple of years I know that's sort of like on the Crosshair or it's on the radar screen so we limped it up to um methan yesterday and they didn't call and tell me they didn't make it and they needed a ride so I assume they didn't made it um those were Ernie's words uh so it is um in methan to be diagnosed and they're hoping that they can get enough parts to repair it again the issue Beyond money is that it's a 30-year-old tanker and some of the parts they just can't get so we're waiting to hear that Ernie when I spoke to Ernie um we um discussed you know what he thought the price tag would be for reasonable repair he thought $10,000 which is why we added 10,000 to the budget so um let me call on Dean nadas he has hand raised Dean hi Sarah thanks um one thought I had on sharing equipment like it it seemed a little uh unnerving that we both bought brand new fire trucks ladder trucks um you know down the road like if you guys are committed to buying a tanker truck and I think we are looking down the road our next concern is a pumper truck so like you wouldn't need to look at a a a pumper truck as well you know it's something like how often do both towns need a ladder truck simultaneously with the shared services you know those are the some of the types of things that we might be able to face I'm thinking I know um we talked about that Remy and I talked about that when we met one the fire chief and uh one of the concerns was sort of end to end on towns for Emergency Equipment um it how that affects service um also that um piece of equipment we shared with rort is uh that no longer has happened uh we um actually bought our own so but in the past we have they no we had to buy a new one but in the past we have shared we shared it and then Rockport bought their own we bought their old one and then it died and we bought our own and our our fire engines the are Pumpers so all your fire are pumers we only had one probably we engine one and engine two okay but I don't know I don't know what we have right now we just have a ladder truck and an engine correct and the engines uh Squad I think we have Squad uh an ambulance we have two ambulances they seem to grow regularly no never mind um well ambulances are are your ambulances self-funding ours ours I mean we do ALS so we do um selfing Mutual Aid calls for the okay we don't um we don't use a private vendor except in a very rare right occasion but they're not they're not self-funding it it takes a little bit of the dent out of the cost but the cost is significant I mean you got to remember that the all of our firefighters are par required to be paramedics right um because of the ALS service and um they're all full-time mean we there is a divide here I mean I think Manchester is sort of an outlier amongst the state I mean we are as close to a contract career fire department as you can get for a small town the we our model is sort of what you would have in a municipality like Lynn or Boston or Springfield literally and at the other end of the spectrum you've achieved this thing of a call firefighting Department like Byfield you know which So currently we're pretty far apart on that but again that's why I say start with equipment right and then over time maybe we can communicate our way towards some Middle Ground here that yeah there's a response issue but you know down the road five years 10 years how do we work something where we can collaborate more on this stuff and and and I think that our of course the majority of our service calls are for medical right um right so it's really all of the fire fighting equipment that you don't use that often now we've we have our um our ladder truck is an ALS equipped piece of equipment now and um the squad is and um and the ambulance um but we'll be getting a second ambulance so Sarah for the 250 million over 25 years is that's how you all are still trying to assess if it's nicely 10 million a year or are there certain things in these next two years that you see as big well our challenge is um over the next three years oh okay um our our challenge is is the potential impact on the tax rate for the next three years after that it seems to moderate and one of our issues is assuming that Essex Elementary would kick in in fiscal year 29 and that's a year where we think the capital will raise the tax rate to 4.9% so if that were delayed a year our fiscal year 30 looks much better but our fiscal year 28's really bad and 27 28 and 29 or all outside of the prop two and a half and it's um you know part of the is pfas do you get hit with pfas or not you don't have an issue complying with the new federal eggs in what way well they've dropped down the percentage you can have of pfas in your water supply we so it's almost negligible so we have to put in additional treatment and our problem is is the treatment itself is not that bad but the the I don't know what they invat or whatever the the equipment equipment they're in is too big for our buildings so we just um redid our water plant we're just coming to the end of that stage of uh so maybe you already treating for PFA so I think that we must be complying we're um in the middle of uh the well project right now so we must be we must be there you know they dropped the Greg can speak this but they dropped the level from was it like 20 parts per billion or something down to under 10 hovering around acceptability and then once they dropped the regs EPA we went out of compliance real fast they're in effect in three two or three years from now and you're referring to pasaz exactly forever Plastics basically yeah and we're dealing with it on two sites so Lincoln Street well and and also gravley pond so we were discussing that in another context at our last we were thinking it'd be great to join the whole effort but it's almost makes sense to do it separately so expensive yeah no I think um our water plant and our wells are coming up to Snuff we just um we were using our arpa money um leftover arpa money and then we just appropriated $259,000 to match that Opa money to get through our um well project so we had been out to bid several times and um without success and we finally got there in this last round by modifying the scope so I'm not hearing I'm not hearing that there's a problem with the water department but maybe they didn't want to tell me you'll find out like the tanker check um Greg when do we have to comply with the the new beas regulations um I believe it's I believe it's five years from now is the deadine okay so you might not have heard about it yet thanks Sarah I appreciate it yeah the last the last time i' heard that the S6 Welles did not have a past in in the water so you I think okay I just got the tanker truck somewhere I was happy I was gonna sleep tonight he said you don't have a problem yeah you have five years we're fine funny of time we're planners any other thoughts Greg and collaboration or anything well I mean you know it's it's always worth anytime there's a you know a change in Personnel it's it's worth looking at whether or not there's a way to merge those operations or not I think that's always a good conversation to have it's not always easy but it's always worth being on the lookout for those opportunities um so it's um you know it's one of those things that that in theory sounds really good but but Devil's always in the detail right so that's that's always the challenge and I don't disagree I I can remember having this conversation with um Pete Silva before he became police chief and he asked me what I thought about him applying and I said well I think the only thing I'm going to tell you is better be open to regionalization of something and that's how we got to Regional 911 you know but I think that the the police model too you know you work under a little bit different police model than we work under also so um you you run you run three three men shifts we run two I don't know if you're on a foreign you're on a foreign to so you know there are there are differences and yeah we I think we have a lieutenant right which you may not have we do oh you have a lieutenant I thought we had command yeah I thought that was Danny is a sergeant right or yeah there you're right they're Sergeant so it's the chief and then there there's one yeah Sergeant hopefully I'm not diminishing his title yeah right no Lieutenant sergeants we have sergeants you have a ticket on your car tomorrow Ben know they find it first I know yeah because I would think that the police like me to say this but I think that in our two towns we don't have a huge number of police emergencies right correct it's it's more community policing and and driving around and and so that is a department easier to consider rization than ours a little different our our policing and I can remember my brother always telling me this because he worked parttime for Essex is that we're the highway between Lawrence and Gloucester 133 is the is the high so your stops are different yep than in Manchester so it's a it's a little bit it's a little bit different yeah I know we're dealing with 128 in two places on a regular basis and that's oh yeah that's tends to be really defined it's not high variability it's pretty much when you go you know what you're going to see exactly so in in when you're pulling someone over at 133 you don't always know what you're going to say so we have we do have um three sergeants okay no Lieutenant good question so you this is not so much on collaboration but on Capital items so you've done the mapping uh it sounds like the stack over in terms of all of these needs and how you stage them which is something that we've been trying to work through that's a big project this fall that we're really trying to get we had a facilities um plan done um so we know what needs to be done we have an issue of lack of land on which to build and such a large portion of our town building municipal buildings are in flood zone um yeah and we don't really have land I mean everyone wants to be downtown right which um and we don't really have land outside of downtown I mean now we're looking at putting the DPW out um at our old compost site which is on School Street on your side of 128 right um so we're looking at near at Water um we're looking at that um trying to better utilize Pleasant Street for other things our DPW is on Pleasant Street and we don't know what that will be used for long term we also need housing um affordable housing and we don't have any we're trying to rehab the public housing in town but to do that make it um self- sustaining you need to have market rate units to give you the cash flow right avoid the subsid so um we essentially have lots of moving pieces places they might go lots of options that been put together in a plan haven't dealt with any of the politics on it yet so so it's basically a lot of options but it hasn't been condensed down over time with diligence to figure out what's going to happen and we have rough placeholders on money for what we think this is going to be but we know we need to do it and we always have issues come up regarding Fields yeah so we have Sweeney field which is in a Wetlands natural and wet right and slow recovery greatest splashing um so you're looking at a police fire public safety building is that what you're looking to do what we did yeah yeah I mean that's certainly one thing being right and you would want to keep that and I think that needs to be in a certain circumference from the center of your your town yeah and not in a flood plane and not in a flood plane that's that's a little tough here right yeah or do you know think outside the box and see what's right available of you know sharing Public Safety buildings or something having small one in Manchester big one in S6 or something that's what bual that sort of thing our um of course our police station's in this building right in the basement downstairs yeah and our fire station is on Lower School Street with um buildings all around it and it's on Sawmill Brook and it's the kind of I want to call it a retention pond that's probably not accurate but that comes in from the ocean and we're rebuilding the Culver that runs from the ocean into that retention Pond and having to do remediation there to have it absorbed more water because um Sawmill Brook comes through town and floods is there a lock on that or not you can't yeah there is there yeah yeah but the problem when it rains like crazy it's the freshwater problem not the salt water water problem it all flows downhill and backs up they open it um in the spring for the spawning we we have one of the few um cold water Fisheries in the state um up it's goes up Sawmill brick Brook and it's up um next to the Wilderness Area up there on um Upper School Street yeah but it's a cold water fishery so we have to open the gates to let the fish come in to spawn what kind of fish trout trout yeah fascinating well we found that that out when we were dealing with the 40b project because it's right there those those little animals and be come out of the woodwork so how how do you think that the MBTA zoning is going to affect your your student um so we did a fiscal analysis on that and rkg which is a well-respected consultant um did a financial feasibility study and they determined based on the areas we selected um a total of 34 new units in downtown area spread over the Lord knows how many years and there's aund um unit um parcel out at Beaver Dam Road which is currently a mini storage area and the sense is that that's not going to be sold because the cash flow on Mini Storage is much higher than it is on residential so we're projecting between two and five new students per year um and between 2020 and 2024 there are 172 fewer Manchester students in the school district plus the 80 school choice that are filling empty seats right so we made the determination that the MBT a zoning was not going to cost us um in the school system area obviously the abortions can change a little based on um difference but it's the the school district can absorb that small number and we don't expect the development to be very fast I'm sorry Sarah could you say those numbers and you you're expecting about three to five per year two to five two to five every for for the next 10 years 15 years we did it over 20 years but that would be if it's fully built out we don't believe it will be fully built out the 34 new units uh in downtown we did it the 134 which is the 34 downtown and the 100 outside and then we did 252 which is absolute Max buildout under the model right of new units and we don't feel that will happen because we selected areas like we have Sawmill Circle which is a high-end it's Apartments now it was kind of built as condos um that could theoretically hold nine more units that's not going to happen it's it's too new nobody's going to and we have you know condos at 21 Pine that could take some it's not going to happen and Brook Street so we picked areas with condos and we picked areas with very small a lot but I didn't yeah 125 is you're you're saying that's the student per year size the 125 number the amount of students that um the decrease in enrollment from Manchester and she's saying it's not going to offset it it's not going to it's immaterial is what you're saying on the students the enrollment so you were down 125 172 172 but four years but the okay where where where did they drop off did they drop off off at grad uation or did they drop off between K through 12 So based on economy and we've we've been here before Mar you you know this that when we started the district we had few students from Manchester like 50 50% and then the economy we built a new school and then they all came back right so you know that's what you've got to but we don't keep in the back of your mind but this is your but this is what you're planning on we don't have that many school AG children yeah right um and something like 35% of our population is over 60 or 65 um and people come to Manchester and they stay the kids come through the school systems and then they're not in the school anymore and their children can't afford to buy in do you know just upand um just because obviously enrollment because we have an aics the housing units coming into um how well this let's say the census is because it's one thing if students are in and then they leave for whatever Choice whether family leave completely or they go to different school but for the students that never actually enroll like maybe they start at one of like norshore Nursery School they go to Gus they go to whever but they actually never enroll is there a good sense of in conjunction with the S ess6 Elementary School building um they did did a study and they project and they looked at schoolage children and based on different age brackets how many kids you're expected to have and they projected no increase in population over the next 10 years based on those assumptions which makes sense I mean it's a function of availability of Housing and affordability of housing it's really those two things and you know and there's few people in the country of childbearing age okay you know right there's not turnover that's happening to well when people didn't have babies for a while yeah or had fewer babies so there's not as many also the the issue is that the the housing stock is really really limited it turns over it goes quickly when available it's so high price that basically the people who are buying it have options other options for education I have a house across the street from me yeah went on the market for 1. 685 million two bedrooms and it went under contract within two or three weeks and you can't increase the number of bedrooms in it unless you tear it down and rebuild but it's on a really small lot I mean it's crazy that is crazy but at one point like using what you just said you know for the family that comes in who can afford the 1.7 million or something where they might never use the school right are we all able not to believe because I've seen the report I'm not on the building committee for essic so I haven't looked at it as closely but are we all able to really account for that family you know is that sort of thing really being looked at because I guess that would be another piece of it but that was the study that study and that would be from your census data that's what I'm saying that's how we knew when we regionalized that only 50% of the school age kids in Manchester were actually in the in the system which is how we ended up with so many Choice kids for that period of time yeah so you knew about half kids weren't using the school system give or take you knew half and your point is that if you can afford that price tag you can also afford Che for um a private school someplace else unfortunately also Starter home of just starting out is not there right and we saw a lot of that certainly with Co yeah right where the private schools started up more quickly than the public schools you got two parents working and guess what they did they popped their kids in the private schools and then did then didn't pull them right right um because they couldn't be home to educate them and some of the real estate transitions are also second homes for people so you know they're they're not got structure sitting here and pay for it but their kids or wherever are on the other side of Boston we call that The Sweet Spot nice it's nice I mean that we know Rockport has that and N Tucket has that Martha's Vineyard I mean you know we don't have that in that se we have educate and evacuate because they can still afford a house in Essex over a period of time and then when the kids are educate and evacuate I think that may be changing I would agree we're a step behind but that trend is reference at town meeting you know the same thing you said Sarah cross the street from me the house just went for 1.5 you know and you know there's very few it's getting it's getting to that point the the demand for the norro living is has always been there but it's accelerating and are all seeing switch but if you want Manchester School District you're more likely to go to go to Essex if you can't afford the Manchester right all things being equal right so and I think that's where we do get the turnover because it's some for some people it's a stretch but it it's worth it because they want to be in the school district right so okay um so you're hoping to hold out for fiscal year 30 for Essex Elementary School although I'm not sure that yeah that's probably work where we're going to Land Based on well documentation one of the questions is can the school district do like bands for a year or like that to to spread to delay I mean we prefer higher amount we prefer fiscal 30 also yeah but we're targeting for 29 yeah I mean it's sort of wishful thinking but we've been looking at this for almost seven eight nine years and thinking that frankly 2032 would be ideal and the reason for that is that um our unfunded liabilities OPB roll off theoretically at that time um Deb on the high school debt on the high school rolls off on that time so we're not coming before residents saying we are trying to pay for three schools simultaneously correct and that's a you know that's a challenge we think it but and I know we have people on we can't change the timing right like with the process with SBA funding it right like we're not able to now say we you can you can change the timing of when you start paying for the bonds including repayment of principle so you can use the bands okay in the early usually during your construction you're using a band so you're only paying interest mhm and so just Bridge yeah to SL couple couple Yeah couple years I guess and again I do know people are on the call I thought fisc 28 was where they or 29 29 is where to start we're expecting the the payment on the bonds to kick in y like the school would be opened in fiscal 28 or9 well construction would be completed yeah okay yeah yeah where a lot of what you said is similar um uh the OPB thing were really trying to get that liability off the books by 29 so because our thinking here is that and this is a topic that's near and dear to Mike's playing that to seven years but then but then that would free up that would free up money in terms of the Essex Elementary for us but it's still going to be a little bit tight for obviously because of this for the same you know because of the Middle High right debt roll off that'll another few years after that yeah this is helpful yeah Jake did you have something to add okay well Jake knows this process too so should we should we see if Pam wants to add anything or if she's she's on if you have any questions not not so much a question but if you and I didn't mean to put you on the spot but no problem yeah I just wanted to make sure you didn't hear anything that sounded off from the dialogue in terms of the timing around Essex Elementary and the Y um at this point it looks like the vote for a full schematic proposal would land in front of Voters somewhere either fall 26 or spring 27 latest potential would be fall 27 so then I think it was Sarah who mentioned it it's all going to be how we work the financing in terms of kind of pushing out your large payments right so yeah and I think that's what Nina was referring to the timeline for moving through the msba process is locked unless you know we we can't hit a benchmark through a vote or something like that but we could draw draw it out with bans to get us to 2032 potentially Pam um I I wouldn't I wouldn't say I'm expert in designing long-term financing um but that has been part of the discussion as to how you how it could be managed just but that's what we would do collectively um when we did Memorial School we did like a modified rep from like a modified collaboration group where we had reps from the boards Finance committees worked with Obby got on the phone with Hilltop and kind of worked through how it would be in everyone's best interest thank you yeah thanks of course and I would encourage everybody well well my mic is open to look at that enrollment projection report it does give you some good information um about what they're seeing based on their methodology for study they're projecting the enrollment design enrollment for Essex Elementary to be around 250 so that would be a slight increase over the next few years for that building Pam is that because we're going to be able to roll back some of those students that we've had to move back to um over to Memorial because of accessibility currently at Essex that could account for maybe eight or 10 students but it's it's more what you're projecting for what the demographics look like and what the projection is for potential housing I believe okay thanks y well 20 I think Essex is in the same boat from a um debt schedule um standpoint 2032 be ideal but we're working on the Assumption since you asked me to speak I'll chime in there just to remind everybody that 2034 is the half life of the middle high school so I would I we're including in our planning that you'll will'll need a significant renovation um project at that point in time to address the the um the currency of the facilities in the building we talked about this like two years ago when we were looking at funding and debt for Memorial High School SXL Elementary and it became obvious that we're going to be thinking about building a school like on and on and on and never if you unfortunately if you're looking at three one is hitting the end of its life when you're thinking about another it's you know if you were thinking about four it would be even more of a case you think about two would be less but you know these buildings last so long and so know why how does it last so much longer than schools wear and tear yeah idea um so if I could just jump in for a minute Sarah sure and and maybe ask Pam to verify but I'm assuming that the that the enrollment patterns are continuing with the with the shift towards towards ess6 continuing or do we see that I think it's stabilizing it is um I don't I can pull up the our latest enrollment um numbers were posted a couple of weeks ago and they'll be in our budget materials um but I don't think I'm seeing or call seeing any major shifts it hasn't it's not in a correction phase where Manchester is starting to grow again it seems to just be flatlining and a few heads here and there aren't going to change the formula too much in any given year so when it flatlines then there's not that extra burden on Essex is that well it's funny because I was we were talking a little bit about that the other day I I think until as I'm thinking through this in the we're going to flatline on the split as well from a common sense perspective until the time at which Manchester grows again because really the shift that has occurred is that it's been a decline to Manchester not a growth for essics so really what you're doing it what's happening is as your student popul is declining you become more equal shares of the entire District so until the Manchester number grows again and grabs back a larger P portion of the um the total population I think it's going to stay it's going to Flatline right around where it is but Michelle might I think Michelle's learning the process I don't know if she has any early observations on that and I certainly don't want to put her on the spot if she has had time to dig in Michelle cresa yeah yeah not not yet with the enrollment piece okay but yeah we're getting there uh I can speak to that just a little bit because Pam uh and Michelle when you had sent over those preliminary enrollment numbers in October I kind of ran it through the meat grinder of apportionment because I wanted to get an early read on how bad or less bad it would be for Essex um and uh it's exactly right I mean what Pam was saying there was less of a decline in Manchester uh and there was also a slight decline in in Essex but it moderated so the extreme disparity between um Manchester and Essex in terms of the impact of apportionment on the percentage increase number uh is better this year mercifully and what your numbers you did um no what I was what I was saying is that so the this the apportionment spreadsheet that we've used you know and you just ticket each year it's the enrollment it's the eqv it's the census and uh the eqv we don't know so um I just sort of adjusted that to be a consistent ratio that changes this year right it will change right which is why so so but but the enrollment number since it's a you know threeyear moving average once you have those preliminary enrollment numbers you can plug those in and get a sense of so um so if the school if the local assessment was 2 and a half% just as an example it would be 2.09 for Manchester and 3.18 for Essex by my map so 3% would be 2.58 and 3.69 um and then I did it for 3 and A4 which would be 283 and 394 so the point it's about a it's about a 1% spread between the two towns y um which we've had three and 4% spreads in the past so I was like okay well that's a relief that um you know so wherever the number comes if it's you know in the two and a half to three and a quarter it's going to be somewhere in the twos for Manchester and somewhere in the threes for Essex at least based on all things being equal based on the enrollment numbers two and a half it's 2.09 and 3.18 I know these are very rough because I have no idea what the relative change and equalized valuation is right and that might complet that might completely change it for all we know I mean that that's the risk here so this is not uh this was more for planning purposes to see you know uh like are we going to be our backs going to be against the wall and and this was good news because um you know and until there's like a structural reversal in terms of what's been happening or just a flatlining to to Pam's Point um you know I it's hard to it's hard to know where it's going to actually like equalize out between the two towns but hopefully we're closer and the driver Ben is the acceleration in the Manchester student fall off well it's been decelerating so because it had been like really it had really dropped off particularly during covid and like following and and that started to Flatline out whereas Essex has sort of been kind of bouncing around sort of stable right um so yeah now we had some attrition um I think it was last year the year before that in the uh Middle School there was a large group who exited from ASX so we were and they were getting ready for high school going to school yeah so when does um equal equalized valuation when will we get that number where does that come out of isn't that the beginning of the year I think we get that that's through the whole assessment the ass usually in February February and what year P oh boy this is the quiz um sorry no no no it's we wait for is it the do to publish the latest and then Al and now Michelle will Factor it on that so I can go back and look through my notes and I'll I'll know exactly kind of when we do it each year but always wait for a state publication to draw from yeah so it's we we determine our tax rate okay it's every two it's every two years though like if you look at the like it'll it'll it's level for two years and then it steps up and then two years so this is an adjustment year so it must be so that would be based on the values as of 1231 2020 three two what don't they average it over two years no no but the 24 all right is from December 31st to 233 yep that's when we that's when our our tax rate calculating this year is off the 1231 values except for New Growth which is June 30th this so you get your new growth until June 30th no no when the assessor determines their valuations yes they pick up any pro any pro anything in any projects in process partial as of June 30th oh you go through June 30th okay no every Windows okay that's a state thing we're we're getting our uh you do an estimate of New Growth when you do your budget for Revenue but your actual certif assessments are based on 1231 for existing properties and then the next June 30th for new properties okay or addition constru additions and that sort right Greg yeah yes correct say that right I happened to know that because I was doing a very expensive addition and I got hit in June and I said how come I'm hit in June we just started in December oh that's fun personal experience never better never better than personal experience okay we won't have those numbers nothing like in another exciting year so that's kind of when they finalize the school budget is when they have they get the fin final Yeah final right and the census is every 10 years so that that's a nonf factor yeah and as I'm thinking of it I'm saying February because that's when we start to formally do the uh pull together the apportionment formula for certification and that's typically when he go he does the formal check of all of the numbers so we do estimates until the adopted budget then he does the form certification I think it would come out earlier information certain deadlines can we at least get preliminary like I think nothing I don't think so but I don't think it I don't think it hugely moves the needle in terms of the uh in terms of the apportionment just the way the formula actually works which is why in the past ob's been able to do like uh you know provide an apportionment number even with the preliminary budget that comes in in December it's just not finalized yeah but we kind of know like our assessor will have the assessment now was when they have the meeting on December 4th to decide whether they're going do two different tax that is correct okay and so we'll have a sense as to what the difference is yeah that's why I I we would get that number earlier in December because you certified New Growth I think it takes a while for the state certify I mean but the state has to certify the taxes before the end of December right so they can go out so yeah it's probably numbers are publ December yeah and I'm sorry if I'm I'm making it more confusing post adoption of the budget so second half of February the preliminary numbers that we provide for the look at apportionment and assessment are finalized based on the final numbers in the budget because there are different details in the apportionment formula so it's it's the formalization of all of the variables which until that time are preliminary right and then get formalized so in my head I am thinking about the part the time in which we sit down and formalize the variables and the apportionment formula and have it formally certified so when they actually become available maybe may be different than when we formalize them so sorry if I confused it's fine Ben can do his calculations in December well we'll hunt down that number well it is kind of help it is fun to see how close was I that's the nerd say you're showing your true colors then he gets excited then he sends out a you know a text look what I've got so exciting all right so so how does how does those excuse me those numbers fit into your budgeting process well the knowing whether we're dealing with 4% increase for the school versus a 3% versus a 5% is an indication of how Draconian we have to be with the rest of the budget to be able to accommodate it particularly in the absence of in the absence of an override which we know that experience from 2023 the what happened in 2023 was as part of the failed override is we ended up using excess Levy capacity that had been building up over prior years so we were able to you know squeeze as much as we could so that that's our our maneuvering room was essentially used up uh at in that 23 experience so um uh so then in terms of modeling out just modeling out all of the operating budget and the line items and I mean I will say if there's one thing that I've accomplished when I was chair as of the finance committee in Essex was um to beg jod to take over after I left because she's been turning over a lot of rocks in terms of finding um you know Finding potential opportunities and just asking a lot of questions so I'm grateful for that so I'm sure you're going to save us I'm in the weeds that's what he just said I'm down in the weeds all the time and that's what I told them you stay up here and I'll I'll deal with she's you know meeting with all the town departments and then you know so yeah um so to to try and make it happen um that being said though I think we're still leaning toward the 2 and a half% because we've got some other issues Brewing so as tight as we can get to that particularly going into a new building project I think it it will behoove us all to uh be incredibly conservative I mean we have been incredibly conservative in our town budget for the last few years I mean almost to to a detriment in some cases um but I think looking at a building project coming I think everybody's acutely aware that um can't really go in with a big budget ask and a capital project yeah I mean we were at 0% Co the first and then we were at I think one one and a half I think we were at two and then this past year we were two and a half two and a half a little over we stayed under 1.81 year me our tax rate went up 4% this year because of the balance of the bonding on the memorial school yeah which I previously been approved right when do you get your healthc care numbers is that a timing issue that is something we always wrestle with it's always between mid January and February we've getting indications of at least 10% and our retirees was 21 so funding OPB can't come soon enough we usually get air number on the health in mid-February we get a range from Maya in end of January so let's all pray for under 10% where did we land last year I don't remember the other one is where the school lands yeah when they when they get their data seven last year seven or eight yeah it was yeah the range was like five and a half to eight and a half for all towns and we were a little on the lower end and I think I think Essex was is at six or seven I forget one or the other yeah and the school was like eight right yeah we came in at the high sevens we started around 15 14 or 15 yeah I think I remember like 793 or something yeah it was right right on the edge yeah we are not getting good early indicators we're looking at potentially three times our Landing number from last year for starters three times over 20% about 20% 21% initial was 18 and it went up from there it's early um it may be the year we consider going out to bid but it doesn't sound like it's good any place so we'll keep working it like we always do wow if you went out to bid Pam you'd have to do that soon correct be January or February when when Pam was the last time going out to bed just out of curiosity I want to say it was around 2016 oh it's been a long time usually you get hit in the fourth year of your cycle first Year's great second Year's and third years but where you thought you were going to be and then they get you on the fourth year but I think Co skewed that yeah it did and we made some significant changes in plan design to help reduce the cost with the number as high and I know obviously you have to have a place Mark is this going to be different where let's hope the number just comes down to anything but let's hope it comes down even to 10 that that's not savings that's just the real number then is 10 when it's that drastic of a number because I know last year it was referred to that there was saving from having the Benchmark being at the 14 or 15 and then when it came in lower instead of that money being returned or just really not used because it wasn't it was um it was seen as that we can now use this amount for something else I am going to defer to after we have some school committee conversations at the beginning of December when they get to see the actual budget and and think about how they want to frame some things okay so I think with the number 20% higher that would be important yeah I mean I think from town from a town perspective I think we would hope that then the budget just got reduced by the amount of s of the the reduction in the healthc Care number I hear I hear that I I think there are some members on if they'd like to speak to it at all I mean that's that's how we handle it in town we don't say that it you know we have a savings we're going to spend it somewhere else we reduce our budget we move on so I mean I think that that should be something that we really need to think about I I'll just say one thing and and and can correct me but that from the last conversation we had last meeting it sounds like we want to kind of look holistically at at what the district is looking for and what the options are so the first number will probably look high but no that our our approach this year is to try to look holistically so we can see how if we need where we need to reduce and the healthcare is certainly one of those things that'll Force us to look at program uh you know where we can look at that in strategic ways but in order to do that we need to kind of look holistically which is going to put out the first number maybe high but knowing that we need to get that down uh we need to we kind of need to do that strategically so don't all I'm saying is prepare for a high number to begin with but know that we are you know planning to look at that we we we used to see a lot of that and that kind of upset us um that we we kind of feel that you should come down a little before you release the first you have your conversations before you release the first budget so it's more I understand I'm just ining what where this the kind of sense of the committee is at the moment I think for the purpose of putting numbers on the table I think we would start low from the town perspective and the district is going to start high I wouldn't expect anything different one thing that might help is that I know what we've shifted our town meeting um by dates and so I've been at this game long enough to remember like a budget a school budget meeting like February 7th to February 12th with approval from the school committee and then town to vote and then we would literally be writing like hours into the night our our report to go to the press to have a meeting like on the first Monday of April and we've pushed that out so hopefully that schedule will allow for a little more realistic budgeting and not this we put in a placeholder and Manchester's voted and oh gosh we got it right or we didn't get it right and then you roll along a couple weeks later so we're I think we're a little more in sync right now but that is very helpful yeah because that was a tough time timeline the fourth I think fourth Wednesday in April now fourth Monday we've added about three weeks right Greg to is that right Greg where the fourth Monday four fourth Monday yes yeah yeah that is helpful that was tight yeah well I I think you know Pam keeps reminding everybody when they talk about um Essex Elementary whether we do a rebuild or we do a renovation if we do not there are incredible Capital costs just to keep that building going so um to keep everybody on the right track I think it's important that we stay conservative to get there so that we can get the vote otherwise we're going to be shoveling you know good money after bad um you know when we did the walkth through in the building I mean you know everything in that building it's got some great bones but you know I think it was Andy like you know touching the ceiling oh this is you know we can't even go up here we you know there are Windows Doors the you know the the boiler the you name it I laughed because I was looking at the fiveyear capital plan for the middle high school and it talks about replacing kitchen equipment half the kitchen equipment in SX Elementary doesn't work our kids can only get in C certain kind of lunches because the equipment it's there it's been there forever and more than 50% of it doesn't work and we're replacing it at the Middle High School shiny building and we're still you know we we're not replacing anything hopefully at eics to get to that point and I I think the other issue is giv given the significant decline in the school population how much do you need an infrastructure to house those students um the memorial is I think it capacity of 50 students more than what they have or something like that and the middle and high school have excess capacity so I think that's one of the things that's important to think about yeah and I think that we struggle with that is how much money do you spend on infrastructure if your population the school population is going to keep declining that's been built into the feasibility the scope of the feasibility study um and the enrollment report um is the first step in that and they in that present they're projecting a design enrollment of 250 students for essic elementary which would exceed the 100 student capacity at Memorial School to get us started but they're going to look at everything and they're going to look at potential um changes to uh the memorial school if necessary um to create an expansion opportunity there so the building committee has been charged with vetting those ideas good we like that what is the current enrollment of Essex Elementary 232 223 two Dam 223 in S6 or 232 do I have my numbers backward it's in the 220s okay all right and then we have a known development project between 30 and 36 homes four bedroom homes and we're right around 289 at Memorial School with their design build at 5:30 or 5:35 oh I'm sorry 3:35 well okay sorry no no no no 335 that's what I thought and it's at 28 289 you said yeah yeah got so again I mean I will I'm going to say it just because everyone knows that I say it and I I'll go back to my my same thing in the beginning when we formed the region asex knew we would be last and we've waited 24 years um for our you know our school to have attention and and um if there's going to be a change in that uh any type of um structural change in facilities it would also need to crack open the regional agreement because written that way so so what else do we need to cover on this school budget well I have a few things I'd like to say about the school budget um this is contextual because I think it'll uh you know trigger some discussion because you know we've been having conversations in terms of what do we expect the school budget to come in at this year um and we have talked about different numbers historically uh you know we've we've in the past we've talked about three and a half% I think we all agree that's too high we have seen we we you know we we have at times request Ed and pretty consistently 22% and that has been the range historically between 2 and2 and 32% so I was um I was curious and I so I did uh I went into the dart database in desie because I wanted to I was cuur I had a few questions in my mind that I thought it might help answer um and I put together some data but I'm not I'm happy to share it with anybody afterwards but it's the font's too small and I'm not going to hand it out but I'm just going to kind of go to the punchline here because what I was curious is how Manchester Essex uh ranks in Essex County on a bunch of different attributes and the first question I was wondering about is enrollment decline like we've seen this level of enrollment Decline and so I went back to 2014 and then I I you know rolled it through 2023 or you know the most recent enrollment numbers that get reported to desie so that you can you know have some way of benchmarking and there's there's 29 districts in Essex County that are public school districts so I didn't include Charter Schools I didn't include you know Vocational Technical just districts some of them are Regional uh and some of them are single Town districts and of those 29 the enrollment declines have ranged from as high as almost 30% in Rockport um to uh so of the 29 25 have experienced enrollment declines and only four have had enrollment increases and were the increases just you know just to say who's bucking the trend yeah I'll tell you because this is interesting what I did was I I um i line item them from the steepest decline to the the least amount of decline which was actually an increase which is haal uh so basically what you can it's it's immigrants so you can take the 29 and you can basically split it into the worst declines so like the the you can create like a a median right and so those that experience the most declines basically had I was using English language Learners as a data point on on immigrant impact and so there's very little in terms of those those that experience the steepest declines in terms so Manchester Essex is in that when you look at the communities that are sort of either close to Flatline or slightly up so ha rolls up Lynn is up by 7% ha roll is up by 8 um Boxford interestingly um 1.3 and Beverly is flat uh but Buck the trend but you see you know a huge increase in the percentage of students who are L's in English language Learners so um so I didn't feel like those were worthy comparisons those that either were flat or upward I was more Curious to say okay of those that are like like Manchester essic you know what are what are some uh interesting factors here so and there's a lot of a lot of districts like Manchester Essex Rockport Masco Triton Asbury Marblehead Pentucket that are all that are all you know greater than 50 15% decline in enrollment so um It's Not Unusual what I was curious to see was of those that have had more than 15% decline enrollments what has been the expenditure growth over the last eight years and uh there's not as much correlation between expenditure growth and enrollment first of all no one had an an expenditure declin they were all kiding it's a surprise no they they were all it like the whole 29 uh districts were between one and a half and 5 and a half% average annual increases in expenditure and so that if you just isolate those that had the level of enrollment decline as Manchester Essex the average is 3 and a qu% expenditure growth over the last eight years which I thought was interesting because Manchester Essex comes in at 3.26 so basically right at the average and that's among communities that are uh or districts that have had greater than 15% enrollment declines did you say Rockport was the highest decline yeah Rockport is the highest in terms of decline almost 30% uh that's over an 8ye period yeah from 20 20145 Academic Year up to the 20 uh 203 24 school choice I was just that's what I don't and by the way those are Choice kids going out I I all this did was create more question for me by the way this is like I wasn't trying to seek any answers I was just kind of curious to see like how much is Manchester essic kind of in line with this cohort based on these enrollment declines and it's we're in line it's in line that was basically the conclusion and ALS also I was curious about FTE count because uh ours has been pretty flat um and I realized it's sort of been shifting from General classroom to special education which we know but we've been pretty much flat that's pretty much been true across the whole you know you don't really see material declines in districts they pretty much hold their Staffing count with the exception of those that are really growing at the bottom which are the you know the ha rolls and the lens where you def you definitely have seen some pretty steep increases in um FTE so all I was trying to answer was the question of you know if we if we asked for 2 and a half% budget growth versus three versus three and a half like is that unreasonable or reasonable based upon the cohort of that that's what I was trying to figure out and so two and a half is is definitely low uh out of those 29 districts uh six of them have kept their expenditure growth below 3% so um uh and again you know Manchester ess6 3.26 uh and then which is right about the average given the enrollment declined so uh I don't think 2 and a half% is unreasonable as a starting point in you know and I know that this school committee will probably you know argue that and but I just was I'm when you look at the data it's it's like there are districts that have managed to you know to um keep their budgets below 3% there's a lot of qualitative Nuance Behind These numbers so you know in terms of um the mix of different kind of students oh the other thing that I'll say is that uh students that are classified as High needs universally up across all the different districts so that that that wasn't surprising because I had heard that in in fact across the state it's up so the fact that resources get shifted toward speal special ed was not is like makes sense to me in terms of the numbers were you able to see anything about like number of AP courses that are offered in the various districts no and actually that is my single biggest question right now because you know if you have declining enrollment and your you know your ratios start to change in terms of classroom size then the the trick is how do you preserve the program right you know and that's that's where the real sort of creativity comes in and I didn't look into the program or you know course options or availability SE um I I could send you a report from two years ago from the high school school council on AP if you want the former principal did get for us oh okay because it just you know I look at it from the sense that the more AP courses that are offered yeah the less parents have to pay for college education because you're getting your credits you're not anymore you don't get credits anymore only if you had it four or five on they leaving them they were talking about it the other night really then I would just just suppose in that same period And I I just find that fascinating data 2015 to present inflation has been 3.24 so you're 3.26 oh that's interesting it's that's that's as close as you're going to get uh to an inflationary which if you think about that's but that's that's um the big inflationary data not not core so there's a lot of things in there but uh right but that's interesting it Smooths out to like being very similar yeah because if you're carrying the same number of teachers or staff exactly then and you're doing salary adjustments or whatever and you're upgrading infrastructure and you know um right and your point is well taken if your largest cost is employees and you have a negotiation every couple years they're looking at a trending inflation saying we have to at least keep up with inflation right and that's why it probably tracks so close right yeah so I just thought this was helpful context to all of these conversations we have around school budget and I'm curious if you know Jake or Chris or Pam have if there's anything surprising in this information um then in the communities that you looked at um how did what were the numbers that you came up with for Regional School Districts and what were some of the districts that came in around two and a half oh um okay I can tell you the ones that came in at 2 and a half Triton um Pentucket Nahant which is Tiny like almost non-comparable to the other ones um Salem Salem came in at 2.99 just to be uh you know just over the line uh uh and and Salem has um I I was kind of interested that Salem had it was uh a 9 and a qu% decline in enrollment I would have thought there would have been I would have thought it closer to a hail right because they they've had a a growth in did you say what the enrollment was for Manchester sorry um uh 20.3 since now this is not from the peak Year by the way because I didn't go back to 20 I think 2012 2013 was the peak yeah in terms of the bubble year and um uh I didn't go back that far so EX for brck is there what other tools are oh so sorry so in term but to um Pam's question about the uh below 3% so yeah I said Triton Pentucket the what fiscal year was this Ben this is well first of all this is total expenditure reported to desie and this is average annualized over eight years but what's the what's the the last year reported 22 or 23 uh it's 22 yeah so then went on to have an override in the following year that was their a major cut year so there is a lot of nuance behind some of these numbers yeah know I get that I totally get that um also Gloucester and peid um uh averaged under 3% but those may have been adjusted I I mean that's the other thing I know with all the strike with the Striking going on like with in Beverly and Gloucester and Marblehead uh you know I I know there's so much swirling Behind These numbers which is why I caveat like their numbers so but um interest and just always go on the record to say a regional district has a different Financial structure than a municipality um and a city different than a a town-based municipality in terms of how they manage their budget and where their source of income come from yeah and there's not many Regional districts by the way on these 29 there's Hamilton winam there's Pentucket which I think is regional right and Mas mascow and Triton we usually compare ourselves to Hamilton winam what was their I guess what's their decline what's their budget Hamilton winam um decline of 10.7% uh three and a 3.54 exp is 20% ours is 2037 yeah at 3.26 so um and I'm happy to send this to anybody uh who's interested I was just trying to answer questions for myself going into the budgets and it would be interesting to see with those decline enrollments if they have a um a shift in their school choice out dollars versus going out to private school right so that would be interesting I think again if you want to take a look at your enrollment report and we can gather some more data for you the enrollment declines are primarily stemming from a demographic decline so low birth rate population over a series of years and another reported shift toward young families moving to small cities I I haven't factored or read too much about IM a we know it's a problem in terms of heads moving in but there it's not just people fleeing communities yeah no that makes that I think that makes sense to me Pam too because the the demographic you know it's we're fighting a demographic shift we're fighting a housing you know lack of housing availability and affordability so and it's just hard for new families to move in to either either one of our communities is what it comes down to anecdotally we have a large number of our younger staff who actually commute from hail because that's where they can find oh really so Pam would you say the the bulk of the decline is in the elementary school years versus middle school and high school years we exited large large classes and enrolled smaller classes just and a lot of those larger classes have the last few years right I think right because of the bubble but now they're almost under 100 aren't they yeah at around a 100 the upper classes are a little bit lower yeah was the target to begin with so this analysis is to signal that you are looking for a budget to come somewhere between two and a half and three and a half again this year yes yeah I mean it's like the the uh no not three not three and a half um under three the average is 3.25 what last year 2 3.25 is the average so I think if we T first of all as someone on our committee always says a number is not a strategy so and I think we've talked about about 3 and a half% in the past I think given the enrollment declines and just given given the the data point three and a half seems Rich to me in a in a declining enrollment environment unless you're just absolutely you know your single goal is to 100% preserve the the program uh you know even if it really starts to to like be pretty slim in terms of filling the difference you know coures and sections so um but so I and this is Chris Reed I know you asked if I had any comments um and it's not really a comment maybe so much as question um how how do the towns or I guess in extension how would you expect the school district to account for the inflation that we've seen over the past three years and still realistically keep our budgets uh at that low cost I'm just curious about that because at some point um those numbers don't work Manchester is doing it in their Town budget y we're keeping it closer to two between two and two and a half% increases in the town side in order schools so but we we also do realignments of personnel we we look for efficiencies in our operations um and this I don't know how much the school has opportunities for efficiency in the education side but they probably have opportunities for efficiency in the admin side yeah from my understanding we've been doing that for a decade as well right um and the I I think maybe the difference in the school district is that um you know we have a very strong union to to deal with and uh it's not really a situation where we can just say well you know I know that you're not getting a pay raise and and actually every year for the past three years in real dollars you've been taking a pay cut and have uh you know high quality teachers stay especially given the climate of how much teachers salaries have been increasing and Strikes uh occurring and if you look at the new con like teacher contracts that have been signed you know throughout Eastern Massachusetts and specifically in in our area I'm just not sure how realistic that is and and that's kind of a comment but you know I very much understand the realities of you know pound budgets and the realities of you know our you know our main stakeholders which are you know our our residents right and and their needs as well so I understand all of that but um when I hear the discussion Being Framed in this way it's just concerning I I think one of the challenges is that in this teacher contracts you have cost to living increases which is fine but then you also have significant increases in the various steps so when you add those two together those increases are much larger than any inflation Factor because usually the cost of living component is tied to the inflation but it ignores the large step increases which town employees don't have we limit Town employees EMP es to not very high raises and they don't have steps they might get some longevity bonuses but you're talking 100 or 200 bucks a year I mean you're not talking the step increases the teachers have so that's I understand do do do all of the jobs in uh the town require a master's degree I don't that's completely different we're talking about increases annual increases the Master's Degree should be you know it I I worked in business world for years 47 years and I'll tell you our pay was not based on our education level it was based on the job we did so just to give people more money because they got a master's degree I don't necessarily agree with um yeah and I I guess all I'm saying is that the reality is that we deal with uh you know a Statewide Union so no I I I understand what you're saying I understand what you're saying Chris and the the the reality is is that's the art of managing a school district right because of the the whole step in the whole that like the the grid structure of pay is a big part of the Nuance that's behind these numbers and how you actually want to position yourself what's optimal on that grid cuz I can see how you wouldn't want a bunch of you know to be overly sort of younger you know younger teachers that are coming into that step and really pushing it versus those that are have been you know at the top right yeah so strategic balance yeah exactly I think that for and I don't know what it's like now but we were heavy on the um on the 15E you know experience column yeah like I can't remember what the number was I remember looking at it a couple years ago so you know as as they retire you get some leeway there until you're you're you're stepping column um Dean how does you have your hand raised um yes I I just want to um chime in that I kind of support what Chris is saying and that uh a 3% might be a more reasonable Target to for preliminary budget region which is like um 27 million and it'd be 10.2 foric and 16.8 for Manchester and that those numbers might be good Target values for the preliminary budget and whether that's affordable or not whe whether we think we can support that thank you yep yeah and I think that's the question in front of us really I mean I don't necessarily know we're going to answer it but right no I think we're all doing the same thing we're all looking for efficiencies we're all looking for places to trim we're all experiencing SS is experiencing a 35% increase in our our electric rate you know starting in December so um we've had to adjust our budgets for that I mean we negotiated a new contract it was significantly higher everyone is having to manage within the confines of of 2 and a half% and and fund the school at the same time and I think the challeng is is the two and a half prop two and a half does not take into consideration inflationary right Trends it's an arbitrary number correct and if you don't have a lot of new growth you yeah or somehow we have to get the residents to understand that maybe 2 and a half% increase is not realistic and and make them understand understand that maybe overrides aren't always a bad thing yeah I mean I think Chris's point about inflation like I I like there's a psychological component to inflation in terms of um you you can look at the numbers which are always backward looking and we've seen inflation go from averaging below 2% for so many years spiking up to over 8% at you know at its peak eight and then is now back down to I think the latest print was like 2.3 so do you think about inflation as like oh we're in a 4% environment or we're coming back to a 2% environment and no one knows the answer to that right but but it is it does sort of frame negotiations in terms of collective bargaining is you know what is that cost of living adjustment uh and I just I I think we're at a difficult point right now because inflation is still part of the dialogue every day even though the numbers have sort of settled back down so okay just for clarification we are in the um second year of a four-year contract with both Paris and teachers so there is no relief coming for renegotiation for some time um let me call on Anna Mitchell oh you're on mute you're on mute Anna I was just going to say exactly what Pam was saying that we already in the middle of the contract regardless of the the steps and whatnot we it is what it is based on the contract what I was going to ask is um our biggest cost is the personnel and Personnel right now we are tying the contract right now for majority of the the employees the other one the second biggest expense is the health insurance um Pam just said that based on the rate that we're getting right now we're looking at 21% increase which is crazy to me but so on the town side you guys are not looking at a kind of big increase is it possible and I don't know if this is even GNA work can we group The District employees and town employees together to join the same kind of the health insurance so like we are all growing at the same so like we get better rate Greg can you speak to that that's interesting well um so both towns are in the Maya program and Maya does a sort of a hybrid of of looking at each entity as a as a separate entity but buffering those individual entities so there's a little bit of a pooling effect going on um so um you know the district was with Maya you shopped around and got a better deal with another vendor um you know I have a bias towards my I think long term you know over the 10 15 years look they they've done very well um but you know um Obi was was was quite aggressive and was able to you know do quite well on on chopping around for those years um but it's it's it's hard to keep that up GL to keep that up so to answer your question there's not a huge advantage to to to going out together because we will still be um assessed individually we'll be analyzed as separate entities if there may be some pooling that we can take advantage of and Maya is on our shopping list for January and February look at the GIC Greg isn't it also experience rated yes that's part of the so so what Maya does is they'll they'll give a range right they'll give a in January they'll announce a range and this year it'll probably be you know 8 to 14% I'm guessing and then each individual town that belongs will be placed on that range based on experience in a and so we introduced a lot of Wellness programs to help with our experience is that correct that was certainly the hope it's hard to it's hard to pinpoint you know an exact experience to a to a particular wellness program it takes takes a lot of years to um to have that experience come down through Wellness programs but but yes we we certainly do offer offer that um and yeah the more skin in the game that the employee has I think the that that's another strategy right to try to make sure that it's not something they just say oh I'm not paying much into this so I don't need to worry about it too much so we have tried to increase the employee percent contribution but that's a that's a challenging uh Union contract negotiation item for sure experience in age right the census also skewes your rate so if you have 75% of your your enroles over 50 years old I think it's just younger and older I don't think it's yeah but it just that does affect your rate yeah it's younger older it's job classification so um police and fire are more expensive considered higher risk than a teacher I mean there's a lot of variables that go into it I think one thing you should always we should try to bear in mind for why our health care costs have gotten more challenging over time is that in the first 10 years of the district we weren't retiring many people and the retirees that existed existed on the town's roles because any teacher who had retired prior to regionalization was on Town side so we've had a straight line up on the trend line for number of retirees that so it's escalating over time which is why ropb um challenge is is a significant one so for every retiree we we take they're for the ma majority of them on the active plan on the um full plan until they're 65 that could be 10 years for the retire age of a teacher so we're not getting as much benefit from a retirement as perhaps we once did so our retiring numbers are going up um and our active numbers are staying steady and we're we've got older employees now and more active um more family plans from my recollection another piece that we struggle with cyclically I think anybody any organization will go through this is those um catastro I'm calling them catastrophic claims there's a diff there's a technical turn for them but those um those issues that exceed our ratio and push our liability up so we're basically not paying in enough based on the usage rates so that's what we're experiencing now and and I think what we're seeing going forward is that the and Michelle can correct me the quarters that we're dropping off for reporting are good quarters and we're adding higher usage quarters so we're not sure where the number is going to go which is prompting us to go out to bid for next year so I mean I think we could do a whole night just on the health care piece it's the biggest wild card really and I I just also offer it is tied into to the contract and plan design is a locked in contractual um obligation okay thank you Pam done that done than so um then the next question was the independent review we have those funds appropriated we haven't really um figured out out what or how we want to do um in the context of the fact that desie is going to be doing the review um for the district I think the um uh I think that we probably want to try and figure out what makes the most sense and I just honestly haven't done a lot of work to rcope this so um but I'm open to thoughts I think that what we heard at the town meeting when we saw the appropriation that was voted down is that Manchester would not support something like that unless and until the school committee is behind it but that was that was what came through at our at our town meeting is that if the school committee didn't support it the town wouldn't pay for an independent audit isn't that what you call that is yeah exactly so so how's Manchester paying for your operational audit internally Greg um Jody was asking me about the operational the audit we're doing of town of the town can you explain that a little bit right we actually we we received a um uh Community compact Grant from the state that's paying for that um so that's a it's an $118,000 effort and it's um just just getting underway got under way last week finally I'm taking a look at um our organizational structure Staffing taking look at technology are ways to increase uh some gain some efficiencies through better use of technology and and as I say looking at operations and seeing if there are any efficiencies or how how do we how do we sort of Stack Up and what recommendations an outside outside view might might have for us answer your question which is pretty much I think what we were after anyway with the um operational review the school yeah and we're doing it for the town yeah Jody's doing it for aics oh I see okay for 18,000 it's a grant the Harris Grant Greg are they looking at all departments or just the town structure um one area I think we could we would be more than willing to explore is is is there any efficiency to be found in facilities yeah so yes sharing of facility structure yeah yeah it is taking a look at all all departments um and I can certainly sort of flag that as a as a area of to look at okay we like using the school for our town meeting yes I was very nervous it worked so amazing that was a huge crowd people I'm glad I'm glad it went well did you fill the auditorium no we filled the gym and then we used the auditorium for overflow I think there were so your overflow was not full right right right right I think we had be done everye we had room for 1300 okay and we had 929 so that was pretty good yeah yeah we usually use the um Memorial School for our town meetings um we we were expecting more to this one and we received had more people attend wow we had we offered daycare and we had 50 people in day 50 kids in daycare gave free daycare it worked well but it's always risky to have two facilities or you know an auditorium and a gymnasium that's when you have a technical problem they everything just slows down we got to the final picked the plug and unplugged the receiver in the auditorium get their voice votes to work so luckily we had somebody on site who could fix it well our lights went out in the middle so right at the very beginning actually complete darkness something you can't understand a word people say in that gym it's tough It's very tough The Echoes oh the high school that's yeah yeah we've had good luck with both memorial school and high school well I'm sure the Acoustics are much better yeah yeah I think um moving forward I think one of the things that we talked about last year and I think we did um kind of uh visit your meeting Pam has uh on her schedule that she's coming to Manchester fcom to talk about the budget and I think that Essex fincom would like to do that together with Manchester fincom so we all hear the same thing at the same time and can if we could do that and participate um equally I I think that the S fcom would appreciate that I think it you know relieve stress on Pam doing two meetings and we get to hear what each other has to ask and Pam's answers at the same time and I would like to do that really as a as a norm if we could do do that going forward I think it's important oh Jord that is an efficiency does that work for you an efficiency there you go yeah we're happy I'm happy to do it either way um and we've we've gone to Essex in the past Manchester just has become a standing date um which is why I added it so whatever works best for the groups we can do two or we can do one one one is great I think one's great yep thank you okay oh I thought said she knew the date no Pam just said she had it March Yeah March to that samam did you did you have a date I think I probably ballparked it based on the date we typically come every year uh I can pull it up I don't have it in front of me right now that's that's fine it's usually situated between the second budget meeting in January and the adoption night Y and it's a Thursday usually right I think it's usually a Thursday that you mean Wednesday wnes it's been a Wednesday Wednesday just let us know we meet on Wednesday for those of us writing reports it's literally been like 36 hours of here you go anything else or we done anybody have anything else thanks thank you so much technical assistance thank you that's great now this was is recorded by 1623 Studios sure with some edits with some edits not all of right thank you um take a motion to adjourn Mor yes I'll second all in favor yes yes motion to adjourn foric in favor I thanks thank you very much thanks good night everyone Hi everyone great job