call the Manchester finance committee meeting to order on Wednesday March 13th need to P I have with me tonight tomet fed so the first item on the agenda is to go through the remaining oper bud I'll do my paper I'll wait for Andy to get his electronic copy up um the first item is De sour and I believe we had asked to have the expiration dates the pay off updates of the various bonds that correct something what don't have a for that's the spreadsheet page two soing so they have the issue date but not the expiration date is that right yeah you had sent us an update something January 31st request for next year that the expiration dates be like you know in the same table B you do have a spread that shows them they said that to everybody it just be nice to see it all here right but in terms of like voting it is what it is right right a a sense of done see those am I looking for earlier email of yours with this information okay I thought that might this on 31st outstanding right that summarizes it in general to the materials from the um this from OD it just go all debt and debt is% of total budget but it doesn't show each Debt Service of what each one when was that four or five pages in a PDF and it looks to me like 7.3 million outstanding for this year 6.4 the next year it goes down to 5.5 4.7 3.91 I'm looking at a spreadsheet spread I'm looking at this PDF it's like roughly 6 million 2023 what the DAT 31st yeah January 31st email okay thanks it's 7 does that reconcile with your spreadsheet my my spreadsheet has the same number for fiscal year 23 through fiscal year 25 which is 7.26 575 that doesn't reconcile this shows six mon so you have a few more years um because our ends of 23 we're looking at PDF that GRE sent on the 31st which is the the bottom number 2023 was 5,582 yes this this one so do you have a different spreadsheet is it something you what what you try to get out well I have this spread sheet that shows total debt and that's different from the PDF that people have what's total debt outstanding for the nearest million sounds like this is 6 million that's a 7.2 right almost 7.3 yeah 7.3 is that in our B 7.3 includes interest the six number does okay okay so that's additions okay 6 million is the notional principle and then add in the interest okay it drops way off just get 33 in the last one was just7 is anything mature in the next 12 months no we do retire some small amounts of six yeah this is showing a drop of a million in fiscal year 26 from fiscal year 25 it's like looks like it's dropping between but is that just the different in interest okay so we okay voting on this budain from a vote if it has to be tonight but I'm not seeing the information you're seeing and um we're talking about 24 25 and 26 numbers and I have the PDF of things to go as far as 23 talking I think not that I can reconcile the map but I think what saying is that 5995 126 million princip only and then the 72 includes and I'm trying to figure out where the 72 is in our book here not book we're not necessarily voting on that right we're voting on the stuff that's in bu I don't know if there's any difference I'm just looking for something close to seven or something close to five in the budget book I'm not finding it well I think you have to add up add up all the numbers in the budget book for each Bond okay I think that's kind of with you but to's Point all we're really voting on I believe is De is the de that 889 710 yeah4 right it's a fiscal year 25 is 97222 right wait there two different numbers oh is all funds and not that's the debt overie give you numbers outand princi interested for the next 10 years I didn't realize that you wanted all so I where where's just the hard number of amount of interest that needs to get paid in fiscal 25 because that's what we need to V right interest in princi interest in okay so there must be a separate page for Debt Service from the debt piece off but when I add up the numbers that are on our PES from page 209 2059 yeah but are you looking at some of them listed I think more have been paid off when I look at the summary sheet there's a whole bunch of okay so the summary sheet on 04 there's a whole bunch that will take off okay there on in the so that number 8897 so told that this needed to improve interest is a million 3720 where is that in our book it doesn't show I'm sorry for that it doesn't show I don't know why it doesn't show I didn't realize that that number was not what what is the what is the number it's a mil 3727 1 grade no 7.7 727 that's the total debt service okay I'm sorry you're gonna have to say it again y 1 million yeah 3,727 did what's the principal amount of that total principal 755 219 interest payment is 27011 01 yeah that doesn't matter 30,000 for any anticipated borrowing costs and then the add Fe to our sewer borrowing that came from the state of, 1500 so those four numbers come to a million 37 and what's the interest to pay to borrow that would be the um if we issue the new Bond is that is that a definite for FAL 2025 possibility that we be issuing some of but we can also do bands do there's some cost for the bands I I'll say I'm just struggling I'm looking on page two and I'm adding up the things that don't have zero next for Debt Service and when I add up those Bond I come up with about 11.4 and somewhere between 6 and 11.4 is where we're landing and they know interest isn't the there I'm struggling to try to figure out it'll work I think those numbers are the original bond amounts I do okay the principal is it's being paid okay what what does the 8897 at the bottom you know page 204 what do that refence sorry I don't have all the details in front of TR D put together she's not on the call don't think she's on the call I trying to reconcile this table to clearly your table has dets suggest put this better presentation for which will delay the um report I can't do the report without numbers the number's not going to change it's that million that's what we are so that that number is not going to change I understand you don't have all the background of support but that number is not going to change subject to the 30,000 except the 30,000 30,000 we could make zero that would for us going any sort of but my point is that's a flexible number the other ones are not right we are forced to pay the interest you're forced to pay the principle I forget the third thing ad WP now the state that's payable to the state for the I'm fine voting on the pieces that are fixed in stone which is the interest principal and the admin to because are existing is that is what it is or we can just and I have I just forwarded everyone spreadsheet okay and the breakdown is on the spreadsheet okay it shows 755 219 the maturing principle 2171 of long-term interest 30,000 of temporary loans wpat admin fee 1507 with the total of 13727 said it's 2 2171 yes and that is under this spreadsheet under Debt Service so the FY 2025 budg have any payment Provisions for a future Bond it has 30,000 for temporary loans interest yes that's in here says so Capital borrowing shortterm Bor is that is that 30 grand like a percentage of an expected notional amount of bonds that how you arrive at 30,000 I'm just thinking you know do a lot of bond isur in the private Market it's usually based off of you know there's underr fees right and usually based off of a notional amount so I'm assuming that 30,000 is connected to yes I just don't know what um don't know what you use for assumptions that would be good right imagine it was I don't know she B she probably on the full 9 million prob push can people who are who are on Zoom please um shut down your videos thank you I'd be fine with voting on three of the things the interest for principal and the admin fee I'm not fine with voting on 30,000 until I know what the assumtion theity b973 727 sure you did the ma 973 727 what's that minus 30k from that I did the original number was 13727 we take out the 30,000 we come up with a 97372 I make a motion we approve 973 727 20254 principal due interest due and the administration a second second yes any discussion you ready to vote Yes War Peter yes Cy yes mik yes huh yes about yes well that was okay so the next one up is employee benefits insurance and pensions we're waiting for final numbers on page 97 teach I wish this table of condence were an alphabet footw make it easier insurance and pension I right here on my heart copy would you like to share here so this Chang Pion number yes has been modified twice for the final numbers is 1,744 42 once again y 1,744 942 about 15,000 less than original then on the insurance health insurance number yeah that Dr for the final number there is 1,548 985 so 1.5 48 8 about 70 down yes and that's obviously a budget fiscal 2025 but I assume the revision down was because we got actuals for current that came lower than budget where do we have a lower enrollment it dropped because we had um primarily because the we had we had budgeted a 10% increase it came just over fir I guess let me ask my question a different way when I look at fiscal 2024 budgeted right I see 1471 1720 and I understand that fiscal 2024 is not over but we are 75% through the year so my question is what do we expect actual fisal yeah that was in the we did our last workout the six months just slightly to the good like had not but not very much so maybe like 1.4 undery and liability insurance might go off the is that something throw five grand or something the INF assumes assum that we adding Marine coverage you don't have um have to gets tomorrow we have additional cost we assume 20,000 I understand we added whatever but did we add like a dollar like me generally when you do liability insurance you're insurance for 20 million or 10 million or 50 you know some hard number so my question is did we actually up that number or no just thought no we added more cover we but I don't know what the the value so they did an analysis how without thech and this is to pay for that now we're getting two numbers we get that part number add then additional I guess the two hard numbers I'm looking for is number one what what is what is on our general liability policy what is the dollar amount that we choose that we're covered for you know it's like a like you might pick 10 million like right for me personally I pick five million right someone else might have one million companies pick 15 mil 100 you know so and would have those in don't okay but as far as you know whatever that number is we did not we didn't change we did not increase that number correct and I guess similar on the retention or the dou side I'd be very interested to know what that amount is and did you change flat we kept it flat um different D for different incidents sure um from two to 7 75 okay that's insane so we should be looking at running numbers with higher redu that's insane that's why I'm pay so the the premium is the same the Casual liability is the same as budget in fiscal year 24 plus the 20,000 L right well I understand but I guess my question there is did we just grab that 20 grand number out of thin air or was that a number that came from a broker they said you know they said we asked them what what what kind of range are we looking at they said it could be between 15 and 20 20 that's all the more reason we be looking at the deductible right needs to if you think of the town like a corporation a 40 million Revenue a 40 million Revenue company does not have a deductible 2500 it's thatc 2500 around cars vehicles and then 7500 is on so your point on the cars that might be the max potentially but we should certainly then be exploring higher on the property my ability all it's judgment in math right because you know if you look at something like Insurance p a medium and long term right what happens you're saving that premium every year yes every now and then you're going to get dinged but you add up the savings over the years minus the ding 9 99 times out of 100 come out ahead like we should ask a broker double that they give us minimum sure absolutely I mean that's I might yeah I got 10 grand in my house yeah absolutely I'm expecting a number I Grand my house and the to is 75 so I guess if you could ask you and ask the broker to give us kind of a mini table right that has I don't know four choices y whatever maybe 50 35 75 the broker have a staff at it right so we want to hold on this budget certainly on that number specifically on that I'm fine on the I'm fine on the other stuff right like I mean 10% the pension is the pension right there's no no variability there's no negotiation right it's hard number have so be clear we're talking about 155,000 here would be surprised it makes a 105,000 oh my guess would be you can add the Marine exposure and the premium States right if not if not a reduction what do you think the time frame is on getting information on this like a sort of tradeoff between premium and and is it gu that's the question and I guess the answer is if it's going to take a while wouldn't we just roll the Marine Insurance into this and ask next year that we have a table I mean I don't know who we use for a broker but I deal with Brokers all the time and that that's that's a 24-hour thing right I mean V everything but that number can something better than nothing so that would be 29 712 55 2 so we're voting on 3 three 74 712 holding casual casualty different number okay I me the bottom number down at the very bottom mon all the scratchings um came to 3, 68472 and then if you pull out the 155 155,000 I'm coming up with 3529 or 3,529 [Music] 712 the contributory oh I hadn't included the5 in my moment so my are you coming up with 352 9712 yes okay y i I need a second okay and hold casualty one more would you number 3,529 712 yree that's with the 1.9 supp the new number for contribut pensions it's the new number for pensions it's the new number for health insurance and it takes out the 155 for casualty and liability corre motion public make motion we approve 3,529 712 fisal 2025 benit insurance and pension excluding casual liability second ready to vote La yes Peter yes Andy yes Mike yes Tom yes yes I've got H scratches all over the place okay the next is animal control and we were waiting for the number from Hamilton it's page 114 115 is the numbers it's yeah it's it's a subset of police I have it already in the paper 115 is the break sir what were we waiting for from forgot contract from Hamilton for for yeah service that it's listed here as 13250 right there was a new contract being written but the expenditure summary for animal control is 162 yeah if you look on page 115 Mor it's a breakdown of all the numbers oh got about it okay we're waiting for a different number for the 13 250 yes I think that's right at this point I would stay that number okay if it comes a little higher I'll make a motion we're ready yeah make a motion to approve 16315 fisal 202 um take a vote Dean yes Mor yes Peter yes Indy yes Mike yes Tom V yes okay okay now we have voted on the DPW but now there's a change to the OPM position page 127 so we voted on but I think it's coming from broken down between budgets we put the full expense ,000 on that position and then we increase the indirect in water and sewer which will be a revenue source for so the Enterprise fund will contribute 6 of that so the salaries will go from [Music] 947 71 10377 plus the overt time I mean this would be 1037 one y and then the 36 the total salaries and benefits of 1073 711 I'm at the top of the page Y and for DPW salaries I add 90,000 to come up with a mil 37711 okay and then there's a total down there that also includes overtime so total salaries and benefits is a mil 7371 oh you just add the 90 to the 90 yeah and then the bottom budget the absolute total 52811 90123 would be 1442 811 on that Revenue the 60 Grand Rue I know like it's connected but it's not connected I understand but we vote on that somehow someway increased revenue from the it's funding source lot right so it'll show up as an expense so we added 30,000 in expense to both water and Su so it's handled within their F it's handled within their npress fund no so where is this 90 in going to Beed DPW okay funding source will be funding source will be taxation for 30 Enterprise on revenues 60 so should our number like the 30 or no we have to appropriate every you got show the you got the gr it's a net it's a net I'm just trying to figure out where like conceptually I understand the 60 I'm just trying to figure out like where the book 60 is so so we were modify you're for water and 30,000 to those in the indirected line so to go to we only increase DPW by 30,000 we're not going to add 60 and 90 we don't want to add total of 90 to the budget that's that's the net difference I agree the water and sewer transfer to the general fund that's 60,000 so the DPW salaries in this budget book include all salaries for water and sewer no so why would this be different because because we're showing this position in DPW right splitting the position up between three s between three departments you could show it it's four I just throw something out help conceptually if people understand not that we would do this right we never take cash out of for operating we could right way to think about it simply is the 90 gross is the higher expense for DP but it's almost like you're grabbing 60 grand out of free cap we're not grabbing 60 grand out of free C we grabbing it out of Enterprise fer F but but my only issue like is for everything else we're splitting salaries between DPW water and SE in this one no we're not so waterers water so the the four guys two guys in water 100% water okay the four guys in sewer are 100% sewer this one position is serving three different departments okay so we could put their salary in the three different departments it's it's easy to administratively to have it come out of one department but now when we do Chuck salary it's all in DPW it's all in DPW we get and we do have some funds from water sewer going into the general fund okay okay another way of thinking about it that the general funds throw off enough profit that we're essentially pulling the Delta from the expenses and income to cover these costs we're using Enterprise funds right so I mean Enterprise funds are theoretically self- sustaining so you're income and your expenses in an Enterprise fund should net out to zero or better than zero right and are we pulling from the better than zero to fund the 60k that we're looking for for this yes I would assume we have retained earnings in both water retains essentially yeah but but we will inre the rates a [Music] little just at a super high level how much is in those two accounts rained earnings sure couple couple in each we we had like 1.4 million years so I'm I'm all ra I'm just saying you don't necessarily need to if you're just looking to full 30 grand out so the revenues not match plus 200 we had more than that so then very tight because last last this past summer was very wet soers are down people were near it impacts impacts so there's no question in my mind at least that you need to raise the rates for the sewer like you said last fiscal year was a n negative number you can't right in in fiscal year 24 the estimate in the Su retained earnings in the sewer Enterprise fund is 5 1,000 in the water ENT priz fund is just under 200 for a total of 698 which is what it was at the end of fiscal year 23 and fiscal year 22 was almost 9 so been spending it yeah and these increase in rates in both will generate an extra or just 30 grand for each to match what they need to contribute that the other increas yes the uh it's around around 3% no I but I'm just saying that the extra Delta you backed in to the 30 grand that each yes sewer and water needed to be able to contribute so that all those being equal just keep those accounts FL yeah will we see the sore cost go down on this $4 million investment in the plant we're no longer going to just process water or we're going to use process instead of town water or is we're not building the town water what about the tanker that comes in the water tanker water tanker p today was there for three hours that's the sledged oh that's the but sometimes I see I've seen a truck there that says water on chuck chuck can you explain that to us yeah there there is no water truck that's Trucking into the sewer plan it's all stuff that you don't want uh so that's for sure true I will say all of all of those costs across the board just like everything else are rising you know the you know the disposal fees for that sludge that's getting sent off site the chemical you know all of that stuff is you know all energy intensive stuff that the costs go up so that's what we're trying to forecast when we forecast this budget and the rates accordingly is you know trying to make those offset the best we can it's not an exact science because as Greg said we have um you know increase in demand or decrease in demand on things that are completely out of our control from year to year so it's it's a best guess and we have to try and make up for it I think more on a you know fiveyear basis running basis or a three-year running basis but not year-to year because we'll just be chasing our shil and yo-yoing the rates you know non-stop but that that was in my when we pitched the idea of a meter fee on the water side those kind of high level numbers that Mike was asking about those are those are in that uh you know eight or nine slid that I sent so that that look back at that and it'll give you the high level numbers truck trucks dirty water to the no out we condense it as much as we can the last bits got it it was a nice shiny truck today I I believe Andy's had the tour but you are all welcome to take the tour whenever you want we will make the time come on down let pick a day in July when it's 95 in human um so we settled on how we're going to do this okay so I I think we need to have a motion to adjust our previous vote to increase the DPW Sal salaries to a million 37,7 one1 for a total DPW budget of a442 811 second second I think that's correct I think the number you had above was 1,737 yes no no the salaries was a milon 37,7 the total of salaries in OT was a million 7371 well that's what I'm just saying is if you take 98371 and you add 90,000 to it I think you get 1,73 your saying's 37 yes I was changing the first one the salary is right never everybody trophy um are we ready to vote well I just the 60,000 shouldn't not show as a credit here someh it's in the revenue re we add the 90 here and then we're adding 30 and 30 to it's 150 no no no it's 30 increase 30 in Revenue yeah okay will be transferred from water and sewer to the general it bothers me too we have to look at everything on a gross basis right look at pay in that parking I want to be able to see the revenue on the same page a motion second yes motion is made in second okay I'll take a vote Dean yes Mor yes Peter yes Andy yes Mike yes yes Sarah yes [Music] okay so now we're up to 4 4 281 okay did that one the next one is Sanitation thanks Andy 136 is the D so somehow I have a note that we were holding the subject of bags inrease does anybody remember what the issue was hey oh the pay of throw bags went up 10, and that was the issue yes because the actual for 2023 was so say it's like 15,000 50% track to spend I think it was 42,000 this this curtain okay that's went to 45 is that just volume based or is it is it a increase in cost it's a little bit of I mean the volume side what's that the volume side is probably yes understood what I'm going to say is the volume side is actually a net positive right in terms of charge residence bring more money we charge residents right I go to the hardware store I pay a lot for the bags the town is paying some maker of plastic bags a certain amount of money for the bags but the town's got a spread right so volume is a good thing right because right so volume is fine that's a good thing just going trash cost of that bag is costing us more okay but high level what we think the bags cover 23 maybe half maybe okay yes you jump to the next step I'm just saying pure bags to bag P bag bag we make money for every bag we buy or sell the town makes money corre then you add in the next layer higher volume the higher the total cost and saying rolling recing half so yeah yeah we should raise the bag Fe motion for3 500 yeah for sanitation motion 53,500 for seconds second take a v de yes yes Peter yes Andy yes Mike yes Tom yes and yes so right on that point like you said it's 50% is that that market other words you know you looked at 50 TOS that charge money you know for tra bags is that about the ratio that a town should expect to recoup you know probably pretty typical like you're never going to see 90 to 100% but you might see higher than 50 so the the um yeah CH becomes there's a limit before people start throwing their trash yeah but but the C stick there is the recycling free composting free so it's not a total Club Tex you got you got a coun right which can't go in the trash I mean as no one believe me you know I have two in college but when all five of us were home I would have one bag a week because I recycle and my problem I have one bag yeah so if you're doing it right not did you want to say something it's just yeah I mean I I agree with Mike but it's just not that simple so we have fixed costs on the you know that the I'm not I can't remember what the number Greg just said was but you know if it's 50 Grand that we're collecting in bags just the disposal fee to Wheeler is 100 Grand a year based on our tonnage the recycling and uh composting and all that kind of stuff is quote unquote free but that's another line item in the budget so if you're looking for the bag to offset you know just the disposal that's different than like the curb side and all the money that we spend at the transfer station and all that kind of stuff so it's a little bit more complex at a bare minimum compos is free right because I thought that's part of the deal black it's getting there get it doesn't go up at least like it it doesn't go up like with you know the other thing so it is more of a fixed cost it's not escalating with all these other numbers but it's still not free that should be zero I'd like to do it that's ridicul I'd like to flip it and get charge full price for what we compost and then get rent for that land and see how the difference is because I think we're getting a bad deal with that you know if we just paid full price for compost and got Char I mean that's different what so so the board's going to be looking at the lease agreement yeah um and we have a proposal that will get us down to zero in a few years wa next year that would be one year I said if anybody wants help in the negotiation I'm willing to help because that's ridiculous like they're a profitable for profit business I mean I would second that we when we negotiate all this a while ago that was thought but it is it is a for-profit business operating close to our water supply and I know they've got a lot of precautions but the town has risk and it's not even the gross dollars because obviously 50 Grand in the context of a $40 million budget is not a big number it's more the principal matter right on the principal matter that number should be zero okay so I made I made that I've made that same argument to them and I I'm more on that side of fence but there is another side to the coin which is they are Staffing the transfer station it's not just the curbside collection it's it's several other things so you know there there are more things involved than just the curbside collection and so on so you know holistically I think we're we're getting a good deal it will be a much better deal when 100% of the town is composting or it's mandated that we compost like we recycle and all of those things so this is more of a longterm than a you know FY 25 thing or 24 thing so this is a Long View project it's been several years in the making and so I I don't think that it's right for us to you know go back on that now that's always been the goal and we've tried to you know kind of work both sides so yeah I I take your point about Staffing but I'll bet you with all the money in my bank account that if I looked at the revenue and the cogs and the IID their business The increased cost for them to staff is like a fly on a that's you know what that's a nothing burer for them yeah I mean that could be but you know that's not what we're negotiating fly on and they they did spend a lot of money on the you know the different things so it's like it's not like it's been out of pocket to get them there yeah look if we're locked into a contract it is what it is I get that I'm just saying whenever it's up for Renewal or review or renegotiation that should go to zero and not stag like that's ridiculous well again there's things that we can't discuss right now but they're they're their revenue that you're discussing you're that you're counting is scaling up as well and that's based on weever that the town gets to pull in terms of how much page they can put through the facility so like these things have been accounted for and I just think that it's not right to you know go back on that now or to you know dispute it in this fashion contract I get it we're locked in I'm saying the next time it's up for renegotiation yeah but that's 20 years down the road down the road we don't negotiate in public here so just I think fundamentally it sounds like a good thing the one thing I would just keep an eye on is how much business are they deriving from communities outside of Manchester using Manchester L and I think when we originally put all this together there were some sort of caps as to how much business or how much tonage they were bringing in from other areas and that's something I would just use in your negotiations think about yeah that that's still in there I mean I'm happy to you know talk with you guys about this it's all been discussed and beted I I don't think our purpose tonight is to discuss a contract um the next budget to review is the rubbish collection which is a budget of 69,000 and includes the rub and garbage collection includes the black o contract and displ waiting resp respect to Black it's like it's being negotiated so that's not something is so one of these two rows is Black Earth and the other row is no rubbage garbage collection includes Black Earth plus Republic AKA Jr and then disal is that's what bed the tons that R Burns and the numbers the numbers above what the actual was 23 by% or so right because when we switched to Republic we actually got a better deal yeah but the Public's existing contract Dage we will see that number to up pretty significantly guess that this is anticipating T I have a note this say tonage rate is up 3% within the existing contract for this year okay okay gr this is for Town and streets public but the town itself still uses waste management for its dumpsters yeah republic too watching the HC here there's a um HS or whatever that's American Legion has HS Oh I thought they were doing the dumpster the it has a dumpster behind it and that's Hills oh okay it's one of the things I get to see from my house so GRE would you have fiscal year to date for you know 2024 so for the for the 370 yeah most of that but both of those numers are that's contract so that the repu number is a contractor number and numbers is fixed number so those are two fixed numbers that 370 is fixed that 370 fixed it's going to come into that the B yeah okay yeah and then the 235 is volume based 239 I'm asking about I don't I don't CH do you know off hand how we're doing here today no not off top of my head yeah how about this if I assum volume flat R volume was exactly increase the uh the disposal cost for rubbish is uh for five years and it it basically the contract goes up three I thought maybe a couple years I might have gone three and a half or 325 but say three um that's the disposal and so we're roughly at this point a th000 tons a year which is 100 Grand a year and that's pretty pretty dead on except for the co year um and then same thing on the recycling is based on tonnage the processing of the recycling and so that is uh I think a little bit over if I'm not mistake maybe a little bit under one or the other but generally around a thousand bucks a ton as well or a sorry 100 bucks a ton for you know roughly 100 Grand it's actually a little bit less so it's you know 70 80 grand a year in recycling processing so that's those are the rough rough numbers I it does it does go up and down throughout the year for different things like you know like bring clean out and you know it's it's really just a curbside number but it on a annual basis it's pretty close I'm I'm staying at 30,000 ft and I'm just making the Assumption Bond flat which of course it will not be exactly flat right who knows could be up could be down right take of assumption 30,000 fo if I take that 202 676 to your point I add 3% right I get about 209 so again if volume was exactly the same which I know will not be ex the same but just to make the high I can't imagine there's a ton of variability right people in to generate same just super high level so it's just just feels like that's high yeah and I can't I would have to do more analysis so I don't know if I could explain it but so the actual from 22 to 23 took a pretty big jump from we spent 168 169 and then we spent 202 so there was a there was a material increase in in volume there so so based on the second quarter report did you have it there yeah um sanitation composting recycling the expenses were through half the year were 61% of the full year so we were 177,000 an over budget through half the first half this year right and that's definitely for that grow it's it's listed as sanitation composting recycling expenses it's not the salary loine which does it does it have a dollar amount tie it back yes so this has well it's not everything I guess this has an original budget of 43,500 actual of 26557 not the sanation rubbish collecting it says rubbish collection recycl sorry rubbish collection recycling expenses original budget 370 actual 1356 we're under budget so we've spent 36.651021 but it's not the 37 that as Greg said it's going to be to the penny it's the next row that I'm looking for so we budgeted 235 so halfway through the year would be what's half of that 17,500 right so I don't see it's just the row right below the 370 it's not the row right below on oh here's sorry here's disposal is that what we 235 so the actual has been 97,000 um spent 41% so for the first six months my are we talking about the dumpster disposal again though no we're talking about the fiscal year 24 expenses for disposal actual versus budget through end of December as I've said before I think we are not getting for disposal of dumpsters and so that has been carrying through from budget to budget we have not been getting invoice for disposal of dumpsters that would also be on if that's true what's that number going to be when it h I think it's it's generally like 60 Grand a year 60 60 a year yeah roughly off STP my head I mean have to look back last time we got charged which might have been when we did have waste management but exactly what do you do with that it goes into free cash but we don't know start it goes into free cash and then if we spend it on a free cash and then and they build and then the piper comes yeah right right okay so how we do I have a motion to approve yes the rubish collection budget in the amount of 69,000 yes your Mo have a second okay Peter second take a vote Dean yes my yes Peter yes Andy yes Mike yes yes okay so that's okay street lights and on the street lights we were waiting for we had a question it's our understanding that Danver okay 14 14 number 14 it's a 55,000 bu right and what did Danver Char by the hour right Char by half a day or a day yeah it's a it's a full day rate full day I guess our concern was the actual for 2023 was 28,000 and we have a budget issue for 55,000 and is any yeah the issue is we haven't we haven't been able to address the underground issues like daners has been coming and and addressing the overhead and the you know the different things that they are allowed to touch uh we need underground support from National Grid and that's just always going to be difficult um so and it will be expensive it's just we're not getting the response um so we're hopeful that we will in fy2 but we're you know that's why it hasn't been done yet we were look at fiscal year to date what would we see uh we have we have not had National Grid in um Street lighting year to date fiscal year 24 budget of 60,000 actual 5,000 8.41% budget in the first six months other that is we haven't cumulated the significant amount of credit this on the amount we have paid to our solar farm so we're pausing the solar farm purchases because our credit is too high National Credit so I don't understand so we're not so we got a huge credit huge credit National Grid which means like they owe us a check not give us but just high level they owe us the check Money credit whatever okay so then go to the side so we have had to pay out on the street lighting to grid because of the high credit so that 5,000 is artificially is is the national g grid roow that street lighting road which has the 35 30 that's the cost of electricity for the the other line is for repairing the ls and that's the one the TR was just commenting on we are some of that work were dependent on R to do and they just so backlog and not get asur I'm not going to come at the maintenance part I'm going to leave that over here I'm coming at that top row if I use your logic we get this huge Credit Now the what's the what's the first line that says Street lighting for 30,000 electricity for street lights okay right but what but what I'm hearing unless I'm understanding it wrong is like we got such a huge credit that we don't think we're actually going to pay money to National Grid in the near future right for the rest of this year we talk starting up again just for 245 we literally start fly one I also don't Greg correct me if I'm wrong but that credit is not it's account based it's not like Town based so even if we have like a huge credit at the Wastewater Plant it's for the Wastewater account not for the streetlight account is that accurate or is it different yeah it's by it's it's segregated by account I'm making making the assumption that because of that low number to date of Street rting that we probably have a small we have some credit there as well but I would have to look at the sheet see by account by account I'm fine keeping it Apples to Apples saying this is a separate account I'm just saying high level got a big credit which is good now and I don't I don't understand like the number was whatever was 5,000 you know fisal year today I don't understand why we need to be budgeting 30,000 30,000 because we won't have that credit for the New Year we will have exhausted most of that credit by the end of this fiscal year so literally the timing's going to work with the credit goes to zero on June 30 and then after no I can't I'm not you know what I'm saying like I'm just when I hear big credit I think big and I'm just thinking wait a minute this is a $55,000 how many hours we can exp 55,000 it's it's a $30,000 $35,000 line item we've only spent 5,000 halfway through the year and I was explaining why we've only said 5,000 is because of the credit that we have in that account which will be roughly exhausted Advantage this fiscal year so yeah we're anticipating the need to spend with 30,000 next year because we paused on the solar correct why do we pause that it's getting way out of lap we're just we we'll never catch up we're spending too much money to the Solar Company oh I see we're we're paying that yeah we're paying solar okay I stop paying them and use up the credit we have readjust the whole thing they they were selling us too much liis that was the fundamental problem to you answer your question right within the context of a $40 million budget this is a small account my problem is it's 20 grand here it's 30 grand there it's 15 here and it's so it's tons of these little cats and dogs but we know what they all add up to right right right they add up to a big number it's a big number do you want to modify the make a motion to modify would you be comfortable with 40K I'm willing to Comm at more high level I'm willing to come at it at the 30,000 foot view so in other words I'm willing to not fight about every little cat dog account as long as then when it comes to the revenue side we can kind of do the adjustment there right that's how I would but we have to operate also on the first floor level too above and below so do you want you want to see a smaller number then I mean short answer is yes long answer is again I'm willing to negotiate on the higher level Revenue side if that makes sense you know what I'm saying in other words dollars is dollars right it's all funable right it all we all all ends up in same bu so I'm willing to conceed this but then when we talk about the revenue that's where there's the 20 grand here and the 30 grand there and the we have a motion to would accept accept this as you see what I'm saying all right I see what you're saying but we're dealing with expense right but I'm saying are we in principal agre to kind of we haven't gotten to the revenue yet on the agenda on the agenda right but get to let's discuss expense I I agree with your point yes I have a motion for 55,000 for the street lines yes you have that motion have a second second second take a vote Dean yes yes Peter yes Andy yes Mike yes Tom yes and SAR yes okay now have a whole bunch okay now we had a question on the Manchester S6 Regional School District debt number we were waiting for an answer the numbers were different and they didn't know what the right number was so I know that was ready foration she the number that they had shown their documents that they showed us that they approved is that 2729 630 is what we voted the budget book at 27209 we took what the school department gave but there was a question because there was a $330,000 number kind of below and it so I guess we'll wait on this I mean we voted on and I had a note that we were going to revisit the amount this week February was 2729 62 62 that's we okay no we have 2720 what no that was in the budget book we voted on 2729 630 on 362 okay keep that in for now tell next okay I guess the rest is Cap no we have non-appropriated expenses page the amount of 190616 190 you find you had minutes ago that M search went up lot last just park park sech charge what is that it jumped quite a bit and then the 23 actual was a 5360 right anticipated 35 so jum right these are these are bills we get from the state yeah so it's just we held them we held them flat otherwise we have no information it's a guess no every we know what it is it's do how does the MBT get calculated it's just the state just says I don't know how we calculate that number um it's yeah it's it's ground slowed it's it's been like 100,000 for 10 or 15 years doesn't change much when I first got here it was like 110 yes so I I I bring out this in the cont you know when you want to answer the high level question how much money do we get from the state every year right you add you net this in right like nothing on the annual operating side we do not get very much sleep money no I mean to be clear not very much when you metet this we're talking like 100 Grand because I think we get gross we get gross like 200 or 250 150 what's that 150 for roads we're getting more than that this year we have done next year they something 74 whatever I'm just making a point 70 is our biggest one with schools that's um that's 3.2 million yeah but that's the school district that's a separate engine I'm talking about the town and all I'm saying is it's nice to think about gross num but we should on net that's part of the netul we what's that we I took the train into Boston for many many years and I moved to the because we had a community and worst case if you had to go to D Farms in West not and by the way after postco what per of people are working from home versus to the office 5 days can it's way low I know from somebody well maybe others take the train here a regular basis but Sarah goes in once a week or twice a week to take him very frequently now she's Hing it to Beverly because the Rockport train is doing this or doing that because you double you double your Chan she just drives I don't think we need to discuss at this meeting We're Not Gonna getting rid of the m i just to I just that number because it is a number that we have to pay out I just wanted to be known that there's a net am we should keep our ears to the ground if there's ever a motion to um charge communities to help bolster up the mvta and being in subject for tonight the concept is crazy it's like I'm sure when they built 128 they had to do ENT domain say okay we're just taking this land Building Highway and then on top of it it's like oh and by the way you got to pay just F doesn't make sense no a motion to approve 190616 for not appropriate expenses so you have a second okay let's take a vote Yes yes Peter yes Andy yes Mike yes yes we met about 300 what's that we met about 300 on the town 300 we metet 300 you'll see it okay we have um opioid funds um vote to take which is in the amount of 8,892 that apparently it came in last year went to free cash because the state hadn't given us what we needed to do to create a special account special revenue account we can't spend the money unless it's in a special revenue account so we need to vote to approve appropriate 8,892 from free cash to a special revenue account for opioid funds I have that motion so this is an accounting thing right yeah nothing in the book it's just Andre will create an account so it be used we have use it's going special account and then we can spend from there would go into the special go Board of Health so they will help they want help pleas work together take a vote Yes yes all the rest is and where's my agenda fingers are C in my paper pages so I can find my space so we're supposed to be revisiting oh we did the nesd capital budget to that pay next is fiscal year Revenue projections before we get to the capital on page 54 50 bucks okay ready to discuss reue it looks like we have a% inrease what are you talking about well the the um property tax went up 3 and 3.3% I guess more volume that's 2 and A2 plus grow assume 2 half% so that might go up I canow some numbers at a high level there's in in right there all kind expenses Revenue forast on both right but here's the net result at the end of the day right for fiscal year 2023 we 1.1 million 1.1 million cash above and beyond right thisal 2024 840 right we can do multi-year averages but no matter how you s the dice it's a big number right and that's you know that's a compilation right of all the expense accounts that come in lower than budgeted and revenue accounts that come in higher than budgeted right and that's you know that's your net result right and you know I understand any forast is you know not perfect it's not going to hit the nail in the head but clear we're being extremely conservative on both sides right I'm estimating revenue and expenses so to me it's like okay if I'm not going to die on every Hill and I'll this $50,000 budget 40, you know then this is the place to you know make the high level adjustment on the revenue St I think it's especially important in a year when we're thinking of U spending interest for money if if we're sitting on money yeah we're going to take a bond spend interest on money that's a very important thing at I mean to me at a high level like it was 200 Grand in now if I if I had to get into weeds and had to say okay where would that 200 Grand be and obviously one row of the Investments right you know 235 Grand actual fisal year 2023 versus 35 okay so so Greg had something in his email today interest been highly volatile because of the way that we have been required to look realized losses realiz G that's why that has fluctuated so there's still debate but the state is saying state is saying that going forward you can you don't have to that out from your interest R you can just claim your interest R Auditors are still arguing about that that's that's actually sound account like that's that's a regular counting right you get your unrealized gains and losses over here and then interest those are yeah two different bus completely different right um so in the past the state of requirements emerge those two so they are now saying differently having some arguments with some they're getting their act shap them they're moving towards the problem account so um you know we have assuming we have that 4 million unbalance free plus stabilization conservative 4% coule number one at 4 million the real number is higher right yes because we right that's the number we targeted but it's all higher right part of it is just budgetary estimates and part of it is pment right well no there's other funds too I think that's that's the issue is you've got the retained earnings for water and sewer which are earning all SS add and we used to have the the fire apparatus fund but we spent that down um we have like 400 grand left from that I'm assuming you're going to St down to to the 3 but but again the part of it fin part of it is estimates right right we we have always had a higher cash balance T right so even if we're targeting X we always commend that so you that's going to add the interest because you're getting interest on actual not budgeted right getting interest on actual so like again I'm just looking at you know these huge end of day variances total total budget right 900 Grand million bucks right and you know conservatively there's 200 extra gr now you know you got to get in we got to say it's 100 Grand here okay fine but i' prefer to keep it simple and just say like you know up the Investments to 200 and then up like motor vehicle taxes 50 Grand and call it a day you know what I mean that to me is a lot easier than like saying okay investment should go up to 142,000 real estate you know I meain like so 23 the actual Lo receipt was 2.5 but now which the budgeted estimated receipts for 25 one so you say you got a buil in cush of 400 I that's that's the revenue that's the revenue right so clearly with my numbers talking about Revenue right now he's say if if you're going to save another 200,000 expenditures right if if the combined if the combined estimates and budget forecast were both revenue and expenditures combined each add 400 or each add 500 which that's what the numbers show then yes there's 400 Grand on the revenue side but there's another 400 Grand on the expense that's should have SW gr makes sense there has been I mean that's the actual data there there has been in times no no no not times every year for the past five six years it's right here this is from Andy I'm being conservative to say 400 on each side it's actually more but let's go with 400 so if you got 400 on the revenue 4 expense I'm saying take 200 so I'm saying take 25% of that 800 so you want to increase the revenue assumption by 200,000 is that what you're saying correct and I'm and I don't personally I don't really care whether that flows into investment or excise you know if you had a gun in my head I'll certainly pick which bucket to put it in but I don't think you care either right does the state have to certify the revenue estimated revenues yes okay um now what about if we were to get a permanent fee one time SP that's through the roof well actually the permit fee is about the same as the property taxes so it's not a one-time Spike if you might have a permit fee in one year and property taxes in the next so it's buckets yeah different buckets but that is based on what they did Monday night that should hit the end of 25 right isn't that what they were talking yes I mean the whole project has gone further out right because they're not going to be completed now to the end of 27 so next fiscal Su yeah that's what I'm think thinking is that so do you think it's q425 or Q3 or do you think it's like ta end is it like June no I don't think I can't remember what was on the slide last night Monday night um but they are doing course it depends when the planning board approves and then they're doing site work 24 into 25 so I I think year 26 those permit fees they they have equipment on site start doing stuff what would you guesstimate is the percentage of permits they don't they don't do permits for ground work the first permit is for a foundation building permit and then you go to building the building but you don't get permits for the groundw let's assume they get a permit appr by the summer right they'll use summer fall and next spring to do site work utilities they have to be working on the project before December of 204 where the variance expires but they don't have to have the building permit based on the way we did our decision that's nine months from now they have to be to something on site but we didn't make it contingent on actually issuing building so this reg could be not in fiscal 25 at 26 right that's what I'm thinking yeah so it just means we don't have to think about right that's what I'm thinking that's what I was trying to figure out so if it does happen it all flows free cash and then we we having this discussion no no unless we increase our Revenue our new gr assumption our Revenue assumption discussion next year we'll be talking about free cash dropped into free Cas because of timing that would be nice but that's unlikely it's [Music] right you can't if you get more revenue revenue than expected during the year you can't spend it because it wasn't included in the in the tax rate okay that's appro unless you have a sub so is is it as simple you know for like was you're talking about the same way simply adjust right so instead of 316 700 336 I'll make a motion on that I make a motion for fisal year 2025 for total local receipts use a number of 33 63700 with the additional 200,000 to be allocated in whatever bucket wants to I'll second yes yes Peter yes Indy yes yes we don't know V just because we he was asked if we had to vote on transfers and I said no we don't normally vote on Revenue it's just because we wanted it change okay now we get to the funding sources and amounts so we wanted to understand in the capital budget there are funding sources and we have asked for adjustments here one of the things raised was how much do we increase the tax rate decrease the volum I to do some calculations I took the medium home value of a mil 51,000 and calculated impact the tax increases I did 2 and a half% 3% 4% and 5% 2 and a half% would increase the annual taxes by $246 or about $20 a month 3% would be about $25 a month 4% would be about $33 a month and 5% would be$ 4 so that was for an annual range of you 245 to 500 I just thought that would be helpful when we're talking potential tax rate increase no it's a complication what we did on the revenue obviously he going to adjust things by right or what I think um I think we need to the global picture of how how you want to find the tool visibility study that's a big number and um I was showing the draw F balance with other other areas I was suggesting remember to you today that we feasibility study perhaps is a Capal exclusion r%% so if you did two and a half plus two for the little less than two for the visibility study then you got a effective tax increase of for then the other other errors would be paid for by down almost a million four little slightly higher than the target the draw down is higher than the Target or the resulting balance is bance be lower so instead of 8% it's 7 point so the how much is the fees B you study 660 660 if if it's a million five for the feasibility which is being to budget and our share would be they were given a range they given a range2 to Andy what's the range of spending that what's the timeline ability stud itself up yeah um I think it so it varies time in materials rather than a colge back me so it's not like they have to appropriate the whole thing in advance because it's not a fixed rate contract like it used to be it's time and materials so over what span would it be I me say say from this fall yeah well from the 280 day period or whatever because it tends to all work toward developing a a design that gets budgeted and then go before goes most most of those for those kind of projects but so I don't know when this one starts but could so sir are you asking about the feasibility studies spending a couple years and paying for it over a couple years yes or why budget 100 1.5 million if it's only going to cost 1.2 it's I mean I mean it could I think what we talked about is it could spam a fisal right it's not going to turn two right but but we're not starting until fall right like with the fire engine they want to see the full amount but this is different this is different that's that's a contract going out to purchase a piece of equipment this is being done on time and expenses prior school budget building was a fixed contract right but what I don't know is if SBA requires you know Pro of glal support by having Doge appropriately that is part of the whole process question but it's a range I wouldn't go the high end of the range certainly is what I'm saying if the range is 1.2 to 1.5.2 you'll be you'll save 100,000 at a bare minimum I agree with that but you know I I would also push back on the SBA support like clearly you know even if I me like in other words obviously we're good for it right like I mean you know and if it cross fiscal years we're just doing a budgetary thing like that to me seems like that'd be pretty shame they put that oh you don't support it what path one fisal year have like we're just trying to do a budgetary strategy but they I don't know what their specific requirements are but they but their their requirements are rather per you know like you know they're not going to talk to us and say yeah you're good for it they want to see well but this more than we good for it I'm saying you know those cross fisal years and there's a way to you know bate and say okay you know half this budget is this like that would seem know the adjective is but you know for them they go well you didn't budg 100% right way like we just Bud happen this year and half next year we also have another crack of the pie in November I think there's a um there's there's a FR for this project and so that's that question AUM right one two so okay so we'll hold off on the feasibility study as far as what's the question that's going to be an on Friday so I I'll ask whether for whatever that figure is let's say it's 1.2 do does each Town need to make a full commitment to for their share in that yeah up front yeah and what the right and the timing element also is a question that is when it starts yeah definitely Budget on the low end that then correct in the subsequent years exactly kind iist little fundamental question like talking about deciding on a tax rate but the way I thought the map work was we decide how much we going to spend and then look at the revenue and we kind of back into for the rate right but we have to decide what we're doing we have to take the tax rate increase into account when we're deciding this huge capital budget and whether we want to be lower on the amount of the debt we incur I understand I'm just saying like it's all connected and it's just so I guess I'm just talking out loud it's all and I guess I'm saying is in the same vein that we're talking about what tax rate we're almost effectively deciding how much to spend on capex is that kind of the yes those are the those are the lever is that fair to say sure okay we locked in operating right right as tonight we locked in operating we locked in Revenue think right other subject to the subject to the percent tax right so the only variables left is the tax rating and the amount of bond well we haven't there's a DPW Capital that a lot of work as far as um the 5 million in design um that we're going to bond I don't see why we need to to design the P pass at gravity Pond this year well I think that he said in his email we take that out because getting 900,000 so some the federal government 1.8 million and then we just got half of that yeah so we can use that for the P pass Li Street whereas where we have problems um just to to keep going on this line of the capital I still haven't seen any definitive evidence why we need to align the swer the warmer pipe on Pleasant Street I know we want to pave the road but I think we should consider that that pipe is good for another 10 years and we can pave it without doing it okay um the five million design cost what 5 million you referen it in the 4.1 for plant upgrades so a lot of that was in the p.8 was keep yeah you got to break it down de you're being way too you know it's it's the water plant design is 2 million water pipe replacement was 2 million water truck was 50 water meter replacement was 1.5 so the U for 5.5 right so I'm saying that the Pleasant Street project we might be able to get line I'm saying so saying you you want to reduce the line item for water pipe replacement yeah we can do that and and how much can we have left over from last year grg that was one of the right questions um we had budgeted 1.8 I believe and we didn't do pleasant we did walk the road instead I foret that Chuck still with us say You piing produ by how much well this 1.8 I think have for Street just from sorry from what what I was talking General got two million for yeah so but we still need some we want to resurface it because of the the detour but that's that's that's what I think is driving that's Ro resurfacing right but I think that's what's driving this pleas Street and I think we're borrowing money to do something that can wait that that that's the issue I think the issue is not Pleasant Street or anything else the question is is how much do we want to spend on water pipe replacement it's not us to determine which pipe is replaced I'll Sayo it's right on correct that's right like there's a ton of things with to C is this that right and I think we need to make a high level decision that we're going to spend this amount of cap right and Greg I mean to me the only way I could even possibly kind of figure this all out is some kind of a mini Excel table that would have columns with the tax rate increase right so it would be a 2 and a half% and then a three and a half and a you know right so there'd be columns with the different tax rate increases and then the rows would be okay if it's two and a half then you can spend X on capex if it's three and a half you can spend y on cap you know so that way you can see but we also have to determine the amount of the bonding we want to ur because that fits in y to the equation agre agreed but it's it's either part of the same table or a separate table I don't know you know but you you like to try to figure this out just I don't maybe everybody else has got to figure it out but I don't I I think we have to look at the capital item budget and say what do we think we could live without instead of just coming up with a gross number I think we need to look at the things say Okay are there things that maybe could be eliminated well I agree I just think that's a second level decision yes I'm confused we've met with each of the Departments to talk about these capital L so I don't understand how we're now reconsidering them without those people here well we met all summer um I know but you're introducing an idea that's challenging the idea that the water things get lined and I don't have enough none of us has information to either the short answer is you're correct you are correct but the long answer is I think we got hit in the stomach with the feasibility right that that wasn't that wasn't there six months ago is that fair 660,000 no okay also are reducing the P by 900,000 because the Grant on that one sorry so the P design is in here um water plant upgrades P fast design I don't know what the water plant upgrades but it's that's 2 million and Greg's saying the actual cost is 1.8 because using well 1.85 we're using 1150 one okay 1.85 and then we're we're getting n almost 900,000 from the government for PS so that can be so this item can be reduced by the 900,000 that we get in re so here yeah um the original budget anticipated by 9.25 and it was broken out through basically three of sewer plant upgrades P pass work for p pass work the water line and the water leaders so with the with the Grant I through 150,000 and by going in house on the clerk cler of the works OPM I was taking out 1.5 at 1.4 from the from the 9.25 I was reducing the amount of Bor by 1.4 to that 7.8 come up again from so the high level every every percent tax increase every of the tax rate roughly 300,000 which is roughly 3 million rough easy number it's a little exact but it's close enough for your high level that's not in sorry it's not in year one not in year one correct I would wait a couple years as we need and I'm just trying to wrap my head around if I said 2 half% increase debts in right what does that mean in terms of what can be spent you know on CX versus if the answer is four and a half three and right like the different rate increases determines different amounts of cabins that can be spent right right so basically if we ask you the question is we would have do Bond we would not do what we would not bond that 7.8 mil if if you don't want to go higher than 2 half% we would not do any of the bond we wouldn't seems counterintuitive if we go the lower tax rate we're not going to borrow I don't understand the other right if you want to keep the TA rate increasing by two and a half% only yeah you got to Bor more right more we just wouldn't B it all would do it work I would do the work I say we can't afford to do the work you B so what I was saying okay we're GNA confus because if you borrow money that's a paying on the tax rate yes yes your current debt service that de be on your traction right but okay go with your debt go with your Deb amount done point right what's the annual interest on that because that's I mean that's the that's the amount that needs to be covered on the operating side it's it's roughly 100,000 per bill so 700,000 got just under $800,000 in new expense that's a little the% wait what you're saying 100,000 per million that's crazy I just picked 4% as an interest rate because that's about where Market is on units so 4% on 8 million is 320 Grand a year in interest how many years you go how many you want you want to go 10 it's that number times 10 you want 20 it's that number times 20 the longer I bu the lower my my payment I'm sorry the longer you borrower P we got to pay principal back to so we're doing principal on interest here right yeah okay I mean we're getting into like second level analysis but I mean just interest cost on an $8 million bond is 320 Grand a year interest and principal I have to okay so okay I mean I'm not sure I can do this math like here but it's not going to jack it up to 100 Grand per milon okay use 80 it's going to be 80 grand a year thats like you're paying it back in like three years okay hold on just um as an observer here what I think I heard um might be helpful tool is a dashboard okay so you've done a lot of puts and takes and you're trying to figure out you know for a tax rate you know how what might it look like to stay in a 2 and a half% or if you had to go a little higher I think what's missing you know you've got a lot of great detail Greg but if you had a dashboard with um I think this conversation would go a lot that's a great idea but we've run out no no no I'm just saying I mean I'm sorry but we have to get closure up we we can't be rehashing everything 20 times during during the budget season um and you know I I just didn't know if because you have tools that are not visible here if there's something you knowable I don't like I'm sorry pictures I don't like pictures pictures my feeling is that we're going to have some big bonds coming between SXL and the DPW facility and that if we can avoid doing a bond this year um but what I mean we've said many times we wanted the sewer plant oper absolutely I haven't touched that that requires a b that reques we don't have enough money to pay for $4.1 million $4.1 million way to move a tax increase of 13.7% I don't think but we have been spending 3 million a year in water and we had a million in reserves in the Enterprise fund that was the million right there that's gone I told you a little while ago what the reserve is in the pron is 600,000 well can I can I go back to your comment where if I said 2 and a half% you said like that's it we're not doing anything we're not right but I thought one of the strategies when you is your bond is you have a debt exclusion right so like you could have the regular tax R st 2 and a half% correct it would be that exclusion but it's still going to hit the your pocketbook it's still going to be four and a half% out of your pocket yeah right but I think we need to talk about the two things separately right oh that is fine I I was merging the okay that I didn't like that just because it made me think that the regular tax rate was G to go up four or five or I think the regular tax rate needs to go up more than two and a half per. I don't I I think that with all of our excess Levy capacity if we hadn't kept the tax rates as low as we did during Co they would be up there now yeah and I don't think that I don't think even a 5% tax rate is unreasonable if it's 500 bucks a year for a medium medium home value I think that's crazy 500 bucks is not that much so just my thinking here ter what I presented to you in the was you would do you would do the debt exclusion Capital exclusion sorry Capital exclusion for the for the feasibility SL and that roughly same amount would then continue no long for fusibility study but then would start paying for the this $8 million rounded off your debt but that's a that's a 2% corre increase so that brings the tax rate to four and a half% that's what I was trying to say but that would continue that it would increase the that amount people's pocket books would be relatively stable as you went forward now it's going to increase depending on the timing of that S1 again I still hope that you we could ban until the the close to the high school peeling off so that that one would offset the other um and but you do have big pest that's that's the wild that we want anticipate terms of but but that that SL Capital thing you just talked about I mean it would have right yeah yes it's just that you're saying it starts out as a capital exclusion then it kind of converts to a debt exclusion to pay for the bonds yes but then it ends when the bonds are retired yes but there'll be other bonds coming along the way there'll be other projects that you have to decide on right but wouldn't that debt it gradually deine no no but I'm saying wouldn't it get tied to the to the specific bond that we would right yes so just I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible so I'm just saying that specific that exclusion would expire mature when these specific bonds call it the 8 million mature corre okay I know there's going to be another B I don't want to confuse it though just to keep it simple y so getting back to what I was talking about the design um design of what um at grav P I'm all on board with exping the pass at Lincoln Street we're over the limit very I think we could defer the gravy Pond design work I don't think we I think we want to learn lessons from Construction Lincoln Street before we spend money on gravy it's not even over the LM I don't think that's our decision to right okay our decision is a financial decision is not to tell the town what they can and cannot do and it's more efficient to design everything together then that makes sense to learn lessons Lear they're also coming up with new technology now where you can water water the water and there's a lot of factors but I don't see why we have to rush to spend all that money on the I think what happens Greg if you just spend the $900,000 GR in year 25 I have ch to see how much that would cover what we have was we're expecting the EPA ruin any day we've been hearing that for a long time I mean no we haven't it was projected to come out in March and here it is in March so what what what happens on the debt exclusion right if we all vote it everybody approves it and the town starts collecting it they don't collect until they isue the B answer my question no that's good ask like because right it sounds like there's a lot of variability there we might issue Bond here we might issue there we might do the shortterm I don't know the name shorts so so the debt exclusion does not really hit the tax rate fiscal your because just to follow that through because we don't anticipate actually issu issuing the B yeah though since a year later anyways even when you do issue the debt say that again your first payment is until a year later after you issue yeah but I'm thinking more when we we would start the Talent start collecting it as soon as the bond is issued on right no we have to make the it hits service is the first service we can't Advance collect school so basically epis 2025 this dead exclusion thing it's like there but it's not there and then most likely it kicks in in fisal 26 but even then that's like when the bond gets issue it really won't H really until 27 which may be when we have more tax revenue from correct correct right so the de service that we started talking about this evening our first vote it's when we'll see this show up with the first payment we have to make and it's probably not going to be next fiscal year it'll probably be after this is all the more why I don't want to talk about four and 5% because it's co-mingling things that really do need to be discussed separately in my it needs to be like there's the property tax rate and there's the debt thing because there two and but the capital exclusion increases the tax rate right yes right so that gets it going right right f 25 it's is and is that mostly because of the the the 660 which by the way you know if that goes down to two 6 the 660 goes down to 550 550 200 subtract 200 down to 350 we just pull another 350 out of free C right well the estimate of 200 as you said I agree is probably very conservative very good it's probably 800 to a m right realistically it's well we still no at at three at 3.3 anticipated receipts maybe we've got 200,000 extra revenue and if you add that to the 400 and under expenditures you got 6 so but but but your Capital going forward assumed you had at least 4 to 600 every year when three Cash the spend so that right that changes that outl look something needs to be clear no matter what we use for estimates or budget of forecast the amount of cash we have to spend is just based on how much cash the door that's a simple fact right we could forecast 20 million Revenue but 40 comes in that's how much you got do right I mean you know so nobody's got a money Tri no one is creating cash or sales or reeven for it's just it's timing it's it's it's timing and bars that's all it comes down to but my point is this we go very close to below that 8% TR then we won't we will have maybe 400 a year no it's just timing it's like we can spend it now we can spend it later right that's the choice and so if we if we if we do what I just said if you go to 1.2 right instead of5 and that changes the 660 to 560 yeah and then you subtract the 200 with the revenue right so 350 if we pull an extra 350 out now it just means it's 350 that we don't have to spend a year which is obviously very logic right well the reverse is true if you didn't pull the 350 out then you have 350 to spend a year I mean it's just kind but we were telling them about 350 for something else not that not if you not if you assume that maintaining that 8% Target I mean like in other words this is one of the many reasons I wanted to go down from 10 to8 because whatever that number is whether it's eight or 10 or 12 it's like that's a certain amount of Cs that just sits there doesn't do anything other than interest be good this year you know like it's it's just a base it's like a base amount it's almost like it's an es broken I know it's not but you know what I mean it's just like this base amount she sits there so yeah you could you could decide to go to zero that is a choice we not suggesting I'm just suggesting if you run the numbers maybe pull I'd be totally in favor of pulling an extra 350 out even if that meant you know we might hit 7.2% instead of eight you know I'm not willing to go down what below 8% we just changed our Target from 10 to 8 and I don't think then we should automatically be going below that except for the fact that there's an extra million that I know is going to go in because of all the forecast going to be a million this year we tighten things up the revenue estimates for this 800 to a million 800 to a million per year over the past five six years M that assume 500 in excess revenue and you just reduce that to maybe 200 I I took I took the 8800 to a million and I sliced 200 off so there's still six to 800 I I I think that you're overestimating the excess expenses I think we have I think we've been tightening up on the expenses in the budget and so we don't have as much excess as we used to that's the problem we're not tightening up on expenses every time get into one of these $50,000 it's like do you really want to die in that Hill I'm like no I don't want to die in that hill but it's 50 Grand here and it's 20 grand there and it's 30 grand and guess what it adds up to the 800 to a million bucks so that that would be my recommendation it's you know slice the5 to one two and then you know if you had to pull out an extra 350 now you're not dealing with any Capital exclusion you know you got the debt one that's going to hit a year or two down road but it it it's not clear to me where these numbers are coming from exactly what we're talking about from each fund and from the revenue news where's oped coming from we voted op is taxation did that this year the continuous that's not we voted on we voted on spending 500,000 for OPB from stabilization that's what extra 500 and I we you said 500 plus the 300 no the last meeting we said just 500 from stabilization we weren't doing both at the last meeting when we talked about it that was not my understanding the original did it because you suggested we up up it my original my original suggestion was we pay 500,000 from stabilization for oped which would be the entire contribution for the Youth and then the votes went South and when we talked about it at the last meeting we were talking about reconsidering the oped vote and have 500,000 from stabilization we didn't talk about the extra 300,000 so we were increasing the contribution from 300 to 500 but paying it stabilization not taxation because we thought we could make that sale that was a logical way to reduce the amount of the stabilization because of the higher earnings we get from the open did I told you this I'm I thought your whole point was to put take money out of stabilization which was not earning High interest and putting it into which does have a longer term Horizon because the theory was is we could justify that from stabilization but we never were saying you know I never intended that we would do both of them so it's the three other 300 still in the budget yes I'm lost what 300,000 is in the original budget from taxation to pay our annual have obligation we we approved that no we don't we approved in votes that went South we approved 800,000 from stabilization and 300,000 from taxation I don't think we ever intended I think that maybe we thought that was going to be an or vote I don't know but it went s so we we need to revote it once we figure out what we're doing soct the capital and just I just want to say that for the capital I'm I'm totally in on any conversation where we say that you know the number is just too big but I don't want to just arbitrarily now start saying that this project shouldn't be done or that's too much of or or whatever decide what the bottom line is that's that's reasonable and and if it affects you know a certain Department like public works I think we want to hear back from them in terms of what that me that's a good way to think about it yeah it looks like there a CeX number right we're not going to jump into the but we still didn't get the numbers I asked for grade which was for breakdown of where all of the revenues were going to which items I can tell you that because the question I'll answer the question this doesn't have the war articles in it it's you're giving me Generals in this generalities but I don't see where all the numbers fit together that's my problem so if you page 195 yes that's just it doesn't include opep it doesn't include any other it doesn't include feasibility it doesn't include any other warranted article that has money attached to just the what you asking well we have but we asked for this before we talked about the ambulance and we felt that there was sufficient money left over that it didn't need to all come out of this you've got 470,000 there's 31,000 there was 1.5 we spent 1.1 on the lad drop no but we had the 400,000 appropriated for an ambulance that we didn't spend we appropriated that last November we didn't spend it and now we have the ambulance back in so we should have that appropriation from last November available why not you resented the vote for the ambulance and then in its place you voted 1.5 by one 180 was from from the sale of the free cash and the rest was from the 1 32 was from the engine fund including 4 so you had youed the for but we had 1.4 in them2 including the 400 said you took 62,000 65,000 for the Y but we need these numbers we you know I can't vote on any of this Capital without having these details because the numbers keep changing and and we don't have the breakdown of everything that's what I asked for for tonight so we could vote on the capital the numbers are they show you where the revenue doesn't show it broken out line by line or item by item but it shows you the revenues for Capital it's for Capital that's right in the comments if you look on page 19 yep I am at the bottom it shows revenues so it's 210,000 2.1 million in general tax so it's 4 550,000 in fund vales shows the chapter 90 monies it shows the water fund the sewer fund Harbor funds shows the bonds now that that Bond number can obviously come down and we're going to increase the fund bounds by 250 because that's the additional amount that's needed in for the Mason that's what I explain in the memo right but but we still have this oped issue the op taxation that's not what we've assumed I understand that now but that's not was my understanding when you Pi that vote and so if 500,000 is coming out of opab out of stabilization how does that impact breakdown of these numbers with respect to Taxation and coming out of fund balance that has to have an impact you free up 300,000 in taxation right that you can add to this amount to and reduce your bonding by we're starting to double dip in the in the fund bounds which is why I wanted to see the numbers I'm sorry I I asked for the breakdown of where all of the funding was coming from and where it was going sit we ahead of the meeting to make sure you got what you need trying to understand the Tim like when I look at the revenue the funding I get general fund right that's taxation right I get fund balance but the bond how can how can that 9.2 or whatever the number ends up being be in fisal 2025 if we don't actually Envision we have toate so they can spend it but then the bomb doesn't actually come due until a future f it's like when we had the Memorial Elementary School where I think last year we had the final Bond and so it increased our tax rate because we appropriated it many years ago but the final Bond was issued in the payments order if I'm just thinking in a in a cash world right like that fund balance 549 600 that's that's cash getting pulled from free cash in fiscal 2025 and then spent on something above right and same with general fund taxes right so like everything other than the bond cap is like cash the cash action is going to happen in fiscal 2025 is that right yes yeah the bonds whatever that number is 9.25 8 whatever that's just getting appropriated or budgeted but it's a noncash events for fiscal 2025 showing it as a cash event in in in theory because I'm showing that expense above that's why B not have to balance it out so I'm showing that that 9.25 million being spent right itemized above 4.1 for the sewer but we know that in reality it's not more going to be spent in 25 it's an authorization it's that'll get spent over many budget years obvious then if that Bond doesn't get issued in fiscal 2025 which we don't think it will then obviously we're not going to be spending 12769 million right but we're Ariz you be spend s if I call the bond 8 million just big a number it's almost like you know subtract 8 million right it would be 4769 so another way in fiscal 202 yes mik if you took a pick your color an orange highlighter and you highlighted the 9.2 25 and then you went up above and you highlighted the various items that contribut to the 9.25 and said everything highlighted in Orange is probably not going to be spent or funded in 20 fiscal year 25 it may it may get doled out over the next six years that's what we're kind of looking at and then all the other stuff that's not highlighted theoretically will get spent within the next fiscal year or two kind of what I get that it's just to use your color thing right the orange stuff to me conceptually should go to 26 or 26 that's why you had the 30 that's why you had the 30,000 of in The Debt Service section of Interest so that the projects would begin but it would be paid with short-term interest instead of issuing the actual and the bond would be issued when the projects were presumably completed it's a commitment to do it okay so to say a different way the 8 million bonds there's going to be some of that 8 million through Bond anticipation of that will get borrow in fiscal anticipating Cur about 30,000 for the ve B why would the um the water and sewer funds cut so much spent there spent so so the previous year we were using a much higher portion from now yes okay that's right so Serv want information SP whe no there's no spinning our Wheels but we need to in order for Andrea to come up with numbers she needs to have the specifics or else we're just going to be going around in circles again and and me I for some kind of table just illuminates the choices you know if pick a 2 and a half% property tax rate combined with a I'm making the all 2% Capital exclusion that allows you to do XYZ but if you did right I mean we have choices right and I'm just trying to understand I don't even know what I don't know what choos in between well I don't know you're choosing from the list of items on page 195 what it's coming down to plus fusibility study and then I listed some other needs for f balance in terms of this year's shorts I have a question on the launch service if if we're expecting um the if we were to implement it this year and we're expecting the annual fees to be collected in advance of starting the launch service would we have Revenue offset that Staffing cost okay we got time because all that re most of that Reven right expenses will be the expenses in 25 will be less you already pay for a small none of that but that's not included in these numbers right that's not is that included as a revenue Source no the cost of the launch service isn't included yes I know and it would be really nice if we had more contemporaneous updates to it it's it's very difficult to work with something that's so old and and not get the updates on a weekly basis it just I find it we give you all access to the SharePoint and that has the master spreadsheet that is upgr it's it's the master Exel spread that's not anything we have access to okay that would be nice yeah every so often I have Andre send it to right it' be nice to have access I'm just literally trying to understand at a very high level what I know obviously we know we have choices we always have choices but what what are the choices is there ABCD and like a is spends you know x amount Capital within 2 and a half% the 2% Capital exclusion and D is 3% tax rate increase with a you know like like I mean and obviously there's an infinite amount of variability but like I think you need to give us four I don't know five you know what I mean like like Pick A B C D or E you know like and a means this and b means that and you know what I'm saying to do that part of that is just for us to sort of say if this isn't the number we want to support what is a number that we want to support correct maybe that's a conversation so we understand what the are but that's that's right I thought people were on board with basic Capital expenditures presented plus plus the new Bond and the real issue was could we draw down that that the bond the bond amount by applying more fund I would agree with that other needs for fund I I agree with that that in in theory we had we had a discussion about this capital and supported nobody had issue I mean that was the discussion we had we asked to have the numbers come back assuming this Capital um but then we got the feasibility study and then we've got the and it's not clear to me you know I mean based on this information we weren't using all of the free cash original in the original thing which is one of the reasons we PID 500,000 for the right I see in your point three you have a parentheses at the end it says you could use some excess L capacity instead of free Cas depending upon how BL I mean obviously I understand that at a high level but I don't understand like I need to be like told okay Choice yeah yeah like you know a is this B is this C you know I mean and you know as you might imagine my choice is going to be maximiz using three cash and not use the ex but but I think for us to all make a decision we just need to see the the ABCD or what so what we help with me is how how low on on fund balance you want to go I don't want to go below 8% good number I mean we picked 8% I think we're fixing on fix even if that impacts us next year I think we haven't been going we've been talking about getting down to our Target we haven't been going down to us and I think now this year is the time to get down to an 8% Target and fiscal year 26 we'll see how much we have over 8% to spend to 1.4 excess to Capital needs per letter and would be that the 8% and he okay yeah yes I me but that I think that's a good starting point for this conversation because you want to get the 8% therefore we want to apply this year P 1.4 now the question is how to apply I know that's s and we we also had agreed at a prior meeting saying we supported an increase in the tax rate to 3% and that was the parameters we set to have these numbers redone yeah I wasn't here right but that doesn't mean we can't go higher than 3% if it makes sense because I think that you have to look at the fact that if we had if we didn't have the excess leing capacity would' be up there today ask ask Greg to apply those assumptions you just made adding in the addition items that have come about subsequently piece of paper that we're going to be able to see well we need to understand what the reserves are what the reserves are being spent on um I didn't do it in in spreadsheet form but item three in my ma outlines the expenditure that one so I feel like at that course here for the even I'm happy to give it a different presentation we make it easy yeah I appreciate thater what's the follow up numbers we can understand regarding exactly what the tax rate increase is going to be what the spend down and reserves is going to be okay so it sounds like there needs to be a little bit of back and forth leading up to so we can you know if it's an iterative process let's let's that I'm reading you number three right the total 4.7 is to accounts 8% is a 3.36 million Target right meaning there's 1.34 million we can use fiscal 2025 then you start however using this full amount will mean like like why wouldn't we because if we're targeting eight then the math would show we definitely want to use 1.4 yeah I agree okay so assuming you you won't have 1.3 to use in 26 for your budget don't go there don't go there the point is if we're targeting 8% very simple fact we're targeting 8% that's fine then right very keep it black and white if we're targeting 8% that means 3.36 million Target which means there's 1.3 4 million to use in free cash corre which we will use so that we do hit the 8% correct that's block and white that is okay so okay and then you say we're currently Pro projecting using 1.39 which is just about 1.34 right so y let's call it the same number y okay so there's the pull out from free cash to get us down to 8% here's the stuff we're going to use it on so what's what what's the question like what we already have we not agreed that we want the information in a different format yeah I was just trying give looking at think we're gonna get there so let just 10 10 I was an air I I thought it was an extra 500 in O and I already have 300 taxation so we have the 300 taxation but no because you don't have the 500 because I use the 500 we have to agree on what the what the use of the of the the amount we're pulling out of stabilization if it's something different say4 pull out right the two buckets and then we have and I will be using it for op at all I understand that too so that's that's a difference right we have an additional 200 in revenue and the 300 taxation that's right you left that saying 500 should obviously there's tons of moving pieces but like I don't think we should be handcuffed to that opab now that we got the money we got to spend on the school thing you know like in other words I was with you I assumed I actually did assume I did assume what you said where you said uh I assuming we send your previous record I actually I understood that to be true I actually was on we don't have to be handc let's apply though excess from the reserves as as it Su yes and and we still have to determine which projects are to the come out of stabilization because that's a harder vote in the mindset of the people that's one of the things we had discussed mono to confirm on op there's the 300 versus 500 differential is that fair to say like you you were thinking it was going to be 300 on open no he was thinking 800 300 Taxation and the 500 we voted St extra 500 to get ahead of vot right I mean four months ago four months ago correct yeah yeah yeah or whatever it was but then logically you assume given all this new stuff yeah no I that was my and and I agree with that I think that makes contrary to the email I sent just to make it clear I made it clear make sense for you and gra to get together during the week you work out I need to see numbers I'm sorry I I can't deal with you know I you know this I saw at 4:30 in the afternoon um understand I that would be I Manchester affordable housing trust Financial transactions at the bank I think the other thing that would be helpful is having um minutes from our meetings and I know it's being really but we have whatever 1831 okay yeah so we're going to meet on Thursday March 21st minutes that were distributed today so we close that Gap does somebody have a motion to approve the minutes from 188 and 1331 as amended make motion second second ready to vote Yes yes yes yes do I have a motion to if we can get a room I don't know whether I have a room or not you're not ready to [Music] make but it's every meeting we have on some comes up with option they send them to Emily and she's