I guess I'm going to call this meeting to order it is 6:30 maybe 6:35 around there the 28th this is the meeting of the TX force and so Denny Hall is here s Sarah melish is here and Harrison is here Richard Smith is here Sue philb I saw you on Zoom here and I don't know who else Sandy sick as you probably I know sy's out gar are you on Zoom he often shows up a few he may beit late I think he Lees his house Michael PR are you there okay well we'll just go with what we got um first order of business is uh discussion of overlay districts I'm going to hold off on uh Communications until we get to Publics I was going to suggest that if we're going through the districts in detail you might take public com comment while we're discussing the districts yeah it seems a little easier okay we can do that I don't know I support that strongly okay yeah right let's do that then okay so let's start off with our big District which is uh the Pine Street Newport Park um Elm Street pouse Mor Court area and uh so I did we did get a communication today from Loren Yani and she was worried about uh Newport park because she thought if we got rezoned it would somehow Wipe Out the um affordable units would be short those units on the Shi hiar hello comfy seat for you thank you so we're starting off talking about districts and I'm going be taking public comment as we go through each one great so the first one is the Pine Street you know the uh moris Court Elm Street yeah area and I was just pointing out that Loren Yan has had a letter today worried about the units at Newport park being taking off the Shi as a result of being resed and I just want to state that they would not believe that in fact there are no those units have to remain anyway but by resoning it we could allow for additional units which would help economically stabilize the property and make it much better and hopefully allow people to get off of those second floor units as well right is there is there any link concern that this could endanger its eligibility under uhlc standards I don't believe so I um Mass Housing Authority controls it yeah oh I understand it so the question is can they can it be the last I heard from Emily was that as long as we're not requiring it we're requiring as part of zoning to be senior housing we're okay so we can Zone it even if it's deed restricted to being that's right and the same with there are some uh senior restricted units at 21 Pine and 22 and 24 no 22 I looked up the deeds and the master condo documents good for um 20 and 22 okay sorry and there's no restriction in them um with respect to age or anything if there's any type of restriction then it would be the members of the condo association doing that and that wouldn't control okay but we can we can Zone even if so so Newport Park would would work and and the um 21 Pine works good as long as we don't require that they be restricted in Arizon that's fine okay and in fact at Newport Park my guess is quite the opposite we be would be opening it up to even market rate housing if it helps the project survive disabled already there they are disabled already there that's right yeah when you look at the numbers at Newport Park property is really important to making that whole region work yes and uh Emily's comments at the Monday meeting set me back a bit uh she seemed indicate there was some kind of question and that she wasn't 100% well uh you know I haven't gotten legal counsel to apply on this okay is the warning because that really upsets the apple cart sure of course yeah AC that upsets the cart for getting Newport Park we we imagined as well it would mean having to I think it would mean having to add on additional parses to that but we can put it put some on at the we could put some on at potterhouse Lane area Crossing saw book and go in like Circle and right FR Street not preferable but not preferable and you have the whole rest of Pine Street which is D2 y so one of the things we're going to get into shortly [Music] is trying to figure out how we Tinker with the lot coverage and setbacks and things to get to the density that we want um I'm concerned that there's no cap on the number of units per lot um if they're using 2,000 per unit it doesn't work can't do that what you I can't we put a cap of 15 per acre I I think you could do that I think if you look at the model you you you can't get away with caps per parcel but do have this control which she has not put into play which is the square footage for the first unit and the square footage for second units and that very finely controls what happens both on small and large parts and sets the density to anything you want I've tuned that that region anywhere from from 12 to 20 and when you do that you you see that the more dense you make it the more intensely you affect the smaller Parcels because you have to make square foot low as it is that region has to be somewhere in the range of 2500t square feet for the first parcel and under 2500 for the second are two different zones there so we could you probably would do the two part there' be at least two parts of that I would think that would be different as you've alluded to I I was looking at the Pine Street Properties um and just the Pine Street I was just looking at the Pine Street because I I didn't happen to have it in my spreadsheet before so I was looking at those and there's a few and I was using 2,000 per unit but what is worth I would say that there's a couple of uh the bigger Lots there right which could have 14 or 15 on a half acre and so if you had a maximum deny of 15 per acre you'd limit those I suppose that could work but for what it's worth I I I find that to be like using a hammer on the problem because uh you know you set the limit to 15 it doesn't work for the one that went to eight and whereas if you use the square footage it Tunes it right there but we can worry about that later I guess the trouble with setting the cap is that it affects every parcel the same Y and you don't want to affect every parcel the same you want to affect a 1 acre parcel slightly differently than you affect the can we couldn't we have a cap if it's over a certain square footage yes you can you can put a cap so that you say the within a parcel you must have x square feet for the first unit and every additional unit must be an additional number of square feet but I want to put a cap on that puts a cap on that puts a cap no it doesn't yes it does because you got 10,000 the size of the lot would would therefore limited if you're going to include a 6,000 foot lot you need 2,000 per unit to make it eligible for multif family yeah if you use that 2,000 per unit on a 30,000 foot lot you get 15 units that's right yes and have to do that it seems to me that if a lot's over a certain size well you can play with it but I think what you're going to find out is that you don't get the density you need there is one place where we could definitely do it which is the LCD we could just simply say at the LCD we want no more than 103 units and we could increase the density at powderhouse Lane yes to help in the other areas we can do that the other thing that Chris and I were talking about is not necessarily cap the number of units on a particular like you say a half acre parcel where you could put let's say 10 units instead of having one large 10 unit building cap the number of units per building so well we had talked about perhaps four units building so that you're reducing the massing and the size of the building I mean you can still make go through Architectural Review with a 10 or 12 unit building but the mass of the building is going to be rather large it would be like the units that are on the left side going out Pine Tree on the left there are those condos that are going up the hill they're like left side of what street just beyond the gas station there condos on Pine Street yeah there's no condo Pine there's no condos on the hill there's house on the hill Beyond that there's a a series of condos right along the street that are 20 and 22 yeah I guess that's right so those are examples of smaller buildings that that kind of break up the scale and make it look more I wonder if you do um you know multiple buildings first of all you're creating a dis incentive to do it yeah which isn't all bad however can you still meet the setback and parking requirements if you do that because you're eating up you know if you have separate buildings you're all of a sudden you're eating up lot so the model would I believe unless Richard maybe if we we put that in I mean the model will still show you could build 15 units or 10 units whatever it is but in all reality the Builder is probably might only build two FL unit buildings because he's got to have separation between the buildings extra drives and he's going to have a limit on the lot coverage so you might artificially be pushing that number down realistically a little bit by breaking up the numbers of buildings plus um you know but it doesn't impact the model but I don't believe this is more of a question I hadn't a chance to talk to Richard about that I think I think what I would say rather than toble with anybody's suggestion is that I don't see how we come to a good result here without digging into the model and actually putting in numbers there's nothing in the model that says anything about multiple buildings right so maybe you could get away with that maybe you couldn't it wouldn't be something I could answer but it seems to me that unless unless you sit down with this thing and start putting in real numbers and looking at the results which it tells you by parcel you don't really know what you've got and I don't know that I have the best solution for it I don't I think any of us might come up with a good solution there's there's a thousand ways you could set the existing parameters here well it's a very complicated wack again is it you know it's I wouldn't it's not hugely complicated there's there's like six variables that really matter and then you've got different zones within the same different overlays within the same area that you can tweak with differently but what my concern is and has been that if we continually wait to go back and forth with in us on coming up with this fine tuning we're going to find ourselves playing a musical chairs game where we take whatever we have when the Music Stops great and I don't think that's going to give us a good result so Richard can you while you're driving around the next weeks will you have time to start fiddling with the model and telling us how what's I think we need access I think you should the spret happy and I will be happy so we can all get access to it but maybe you can yeah I'll tell you what I can do I've loaded my version of the model now I would prefer that you have Emily's version because then you might have more confidence in it when she gave it to me it was locked so she'd have to be willing to give you an unlocked model if she won't give you an unlocked model I'll give you my unlock um but I suspect she will and I I can I can certainly give anyone who's interested in doing it some what it's worth whatever I've learned in playing with it but I I'll tell you it's uh it's going to also put you in there's another slight complication to this so the way that model works is is that the model contains five areas you set up five areas you could do more but it starts to get complicated because their model only does five areas at a time so we already have four so we could presumably break up the Pine Street into two pieces for purposes of our work making a kind of preliminary decision that we're going to split that overlay at Powerhouse I yes we have more than four oh I see what you're saying okay and and then what you do is you you set the parameters for each of those five separately it tells you exactly what the density is for each of the individual areas and it tells you what the overall density is for the total so yes I think absolutely everyone here this should be a a a working task and we should we should be working to come up with our best solution and if Emily tells us that it doesn't work then for some reason that we don't understand well then that's fine but I I don't think we want to wait for somebody working at innocent Associates to to to get to where we want to be it would be impossible for them to do that well they not we don't doing things and we don't have enough information as to what you can do in order I played with it early on and there was flexibility in it um and I don't know if their flexibility they're using is what we want well I know what they're doing uh what they're doing is they're not using any square footage limitations on first and second unit they're not using any caps what they're doing is plugging in uh and and and she has done a few other things beyond that but what she started out with was 40% 70% three stories and uh same setbacks as the General District and then nothing but with our situation we're going to have to do more than that because these these small lots and the tremendous variations we have in the sizes of lots within these areas makes it important for us I think to to really tune it carefully and then we have a big decision to make which is what do we give up in the town versus the LCD because just preliminarily if you don't put 150 units up in the LCD which is 20 per per uh acre you're you're hurting in my view well I I think that we've talked about a long time about having greater density in powderhouse Lane um I think we need to play with that you know I think we need the option to play with this stuff and come up with ideas instead of having it all come out of one or two people you know oh I'll mail it to you tonight okay yeah uh and me too yeah everybody I'll mail it to the uh spread and uh what I have right now is four districts not not five so but I think that'll suffice and as far as we have to have pow more dense well that's going to happen anyway I mean by the way I know it is but the fact of the matter is we're putting this stuff out there we're not dealing with any of these details so if we make powderhouse Lane more dense how how can we down adjust some of the others to make it more reasonable and and we talk about it but we haven't modeled it well I think I've been talking about that and modeling that for about the last two months well so have I and we're just we're not getting any place and I'm so we'll just really frustrated we'll do it then we'll tell Emily this is how we wanted to be modeled yeah I I think also I should send the model to her I I have want to make sure that there is nothing that I have done that uh that's good but what like I said maybe you should ask her to send an unlocked model to us because I would be happy to see everybody using her unlocked model rather than mine I just takes all the weat off me a come on you really want to be muscle okay any other thoughts on this we're going back yeah so I get a question so do we wna I mean so as far as the model goes have we maybe we should work through a few items so that we're all kind of working off the same thing in other words for example setbacks are we going to have one setback are we going to like defer to the underlying the district because then it changes um quite a bit so what I would like to see I think is that we use the underlying Zone dimensional requirements as much as we can make as few changes as possible and I think that will probably except for Newport Park and for maybe powderhouse I think that's probably what we want to see is just the same basic zoning Arrangement what I'm what I'm going to send out is the general is plugged in with the General District setbacks okay okay and and the General District coverage 4070 but D1 is D D2 we don't need to use the 70 we just need to use the 40 but D1 and D2 are same as the General District I think the setbacks are the same coverage cage and and D2 doesn't have a lot size D2 is merely an overlay District on top of the existing districts saying that you can build two family structures by special permit okay so there's no lot restrictions on it per se okay and it's the underlying District that controls lot and D1 that has a 6,000 square foot lot okay and did you that's the arbell street area that area in there yeah D2 is the one that goes on both sides of pine up to Pleasant right one side of school the yeah one of the things that you'll notice when you work on this model is that there's actually three lot sizes it asks for one is minimum lot size then the first unit size and then the additional unit size frankly I don't know what that I did it without the first the second and third unit size I know that's in my opinion that's where you tune it um yeah but I don't know what the first number means it doesn't really matter what you'll also see I guess you would expect to see um depending on what you set those first and second lot sizes for a lot of lots have no multif family capacity right that's the problem one of the questions that I have which I don't know if we've answered is what if anything does MBTA zoning do to a lot which does not qualify for multif family does it change the general zoning laws that currently apply well I you shake your head but do you really know I believe that based on when I looked at the model it's doing the calculation as to what you can fit on the size parcel that's there oh I know how it's doing the calculation that's not my question and so if you can't come up with three units then it's not multif family I understand but that's not really my question my question is this we know that we know that the General District zoning requires that you allows you to convert a single to a two or three family only if you stay within the envelope of the building and only if you provide parking question is whether or not putting those properties inside the MBTA zoning Alters that restriction even when that parcel does not specifically allow you to go to three units I don't think that's obvious I think that's what we address text I think if you can't qualify for a multif family under the MBTA the underlying zoning has to take I hope that's true I'm asking that question because I don't does it add to our capacity to be able to it wouldn't be includ certainly doesn't add to our capacity but but would you be willing to you know bet $1,000 on whether or not it Alters our underlying zoning we're putting an overlay on there I don't know no it doesn't unless as long as your language is clear that you're not altering the underline zoning that if you're utilizing the overlay District requirements you have to meet those requirements and it doesn't change the right so for example if you have a one one space per unit as opposed to one and a half I don't want to belabor the point but I want to really really really make sure because this is an important point to me because what it would do if it did not allow that existing zoning to work through is what I have long argued is important and that is it would undermine it would increase the ease of De of of of taking single families to Three Families when they don't otherwise so your point being has said that the underlying zoning is not impact well of course it's not but under what C circumstances can you do something under the new zoning can you only use the new zoning when you happen to have been computed for capacity of three units I don't know that the the the current the NBTA zoning doesn't limit the number of units that you can put on a parcel it only means that we we Zone to that I just don't know so if under it's probably okay exis under the existing zoning you can convert a single family house to a three family by right with restrict I want to make restri they would well we hope so I hope so I think we've talked about this a lot yeah no we haven't talked about this in relationship to the NBTA zoning at all well I think we can simply say in in the language of the overlay District that that it does not apply to okay I I won't blab it I I just want to make sure that we keep that in mind that we don't allow that to get over which reason Y what happens to the parking the parking under the she's assuming one and a half per unit that's what it is now that's what we have in town today what it is now yeah yeah that's part of concern and and I think that if we were to increase it greater than one and a half per unit for the MBTA overlay District we could run into problems because the state would feel it's more restrictive on the other hand we might want to depending what the model does you might want to consider saying one space for one single bedroom or one or two B you know it's a weird thing I don't know how that it doesn't impact it's a weird thing on the model uh Sarah I I I found that changing the parking didn't make right it it they're assuming 300 Square what is it 300 square foot per parking space and we we have that amount of open space because of our coverage that's right we have it it's not an issue matter I guess no I I plugged in high parking numbers and it didn't seem to whether whether the the lot it's because to topography allows parking is Irrelevant for the model although just a strict account it would be too bad to require space in half Park if we got bigger well we can have separate requirements for that well same as propr House Lane if we allow bigger density maybe we want exactly that's exactly my point yeah or the opposite if we do the LCD we may want to require let's say two spaces per un I mean just throw yeah the parking alone eats up an acre and a half over there okay uh I can't tell if people have their any public comments here can we find out line iani Lorraine iani can you hear me um I Sandy had her hand raised um and okay Lor go this s's a member of the task force let her speak first and I'll come to you Sandy isn't oh Sandy Rogers Sandy Barbara tur I'm the Sandy is Sandy Rogers go ahead Lorraine um Sarah and I can go after okay okay terrific uh good fine good evening everyone um one of the things that I'm hearing is um um Mr Smith's um asking for clarification on whether um underlying zoning uh will remain in effect and I want to stress that I absolutely agree with that and I think that would be a major point in terms of educating and soliciting um agreement uh with residents so um change is not always a a good thing uh but in some cases um if you have um things that aren't changed as much it might be something that people might be interested uh in supporting so we have to make sure we get a clear answer on that the other point I want to make here is I'm not sure why inis is locking the model I don't know what that means um it sounds like a control of uh certain algorithms and you know the level of frustration that I hear is because it's very hard what you're doing trying to fit all of this into a very unique Seaside town so uh yes by all means let's get it unlocked and uh those and you folks Mr Smith and Company whoever is you know skilled in looking at it uh take a look at it because I raised this issue as to um what the base data is that we're relying on so I would like to uh see that unlocked as well I would like to also just a matter of correcting the record um uh 20 and 22 Pine Street are in fact uh deeded uh there's a special amendments to the master deed which do in fact make these age restricted it's just simply a matter of Correction of the data on the record um other than that um that's what I hear so far and thank you for all your work thank you thank you can I speak to the yes I was just going to say that um thank you for your comments um our understanding now is that the deed restriction has no effect on our ability to put an overlay to count the pro property in an overlay District I wanted to speak to the lock issue I I wasn't implying that innocent company was doing anything to restrict our operation I think they were merely protecting the accuracy of a model that they had prepared we do have unlocked models that we got from the state they're available to us I was only mentioning her unlocking hers as a courtesy to us and so it it has not been an obstacle I don't want to why that it was okay thank you thank you for cl uh Sandy Rogers hi um I've got a couple questions and um I think uh one of you mentioned this is we're looking at the lot sizes and we're not looking at topography so if a lot cannot be built because it has water on it that is not factored here we're just looking for density in square footage area we're not looking at whether it's a viable building lot just wanting to be sure I know there was mention of like well if we can't put a driveway in there then the developer won't develop it but we can still count it um so I'm just I have a that's my first question I'll sit there and I'll wait and I'll ask my next question okay so the answer of that is part of this I don't want to call this a game but it's a little bit of a game we're dealing with a computer model that tells us what land we can Zone and what we can't we cannot Zone Wetlands or or open water or um any cemeteries yeah there a bunch of things educational Land We those are all called excluded land so if we try we can include them in a district but we don't get credit for the acreage or any units that we could theoretically put on them so we're left with a kind of this funny Blank Slate where it says now cut it up and Zone it the way you think it's going to work and go ahead sure I was just going to say um the the state maps exclude land that is wet or that is underwater um but they don't do anything about land that's vertical or um Rocky Beyond or a flood plane or a flood plane yeah so um right so some of those lots on um Hine Street have like a stream behind them and some of the other lots and other areas as long as they're not deemed legitimate Wetlands you can you can put the density in there even though on the state map and I want to make this clear also this does not override the conservation commission's uh responsibility and authority over the land and and the state law is very clear about that that we're just zoning it we're not we're not approving development projects right so by powderhouse um near Newport Park they might have to ratchet in that acreage based on what the Conservation Commission says but you can still leverage whatever acreage once you do the set bets and everything yes one thing it would happen the land that is that is flood prone or ecologically sensitive is called sensitively we can Zone it but if we decided to try to fool the state by by just creating districts in sensitive land yeah they would they would see that and then say no that's not acceptable so we got to make a reasonable effort but we don't need to decrease our acreage by acreage that the Conservation Commission has control over that's correct we can include that that's right right right so that's one thing um the LCD area um I'm not sure if that area is where there's Hills um both in whatever districts in town and also in the LCD I heard something earlier that said three stories we have a certain twostory plus whatever Eaves or whatever limit and I think that that's one of the concerns that everyone has in town is one regarding when you add density and you add more height it that's where it starts to overwhelm what our town is used to and the same thing if you're adding chunking up like yeah we put three four five stories out in the LCD some of that space is very high up and so I think that we have to be very cautious looking at topography ourselves um and even if we allow it in the district cuz of density um are they going to be looking at like if you're adding the square footage because you're allowing for that height then you have to change the Zoning for that height and so Sandy there's just a real concern over the height aspect the the property we're considered right now in LCD is the cape and storage which is low and the the height restriction LCD is current 55 ft and it's also already developed so we're not talking about zoning you know pristine land and it's it's it's it's abutted by Wetlands so it's only the currently Disturbed part that could be built on for okay for the future in the discussion we've just we were discussing one area yeah other plac okay I just like I was just basically talking about the Heights in general so just in topography so Sandy there is one thing to keep in mind which is the higher we can allow buildings to go the less area we have to impact this is particularly true of the LCD especially the LCD but anywhere in town I mean we're trying we're trying to minimize the impact on the downtown and if that means we have to go to three stories and parts of the downtown to get there that might be a fair trade and that that would change underlying zoning well it's like um Powter House Lane is currently three or four stories sure yeah P but most of these buildings are talking about potous Lanes three stories there are buildings in the downtown that are three and a half stories they're they're not typical but they're there so we're not breaking precedent necessarily and and it's not changing the underlying zoning there are two things there is the underlying underlying zoning which will stay at the current height if the overlay allows more height then you have to live with the overlay rules if you want more height right if you want to do take advantage of the underlying zoning then you have to stay with the whole of the underlying zoning correct right and that that's I think where it was just getting confusing when you were talking about underlying versus overlying zoning so thank you okay thank thank you for all like you're trying to do okay and any others Liz or who else Dale can see the hand D can can you tell us if there's anybody else with a hand up Kathy bat has her hand up and Sarah Pierce has her hand up and a Gentleman had put something in chat um uh I uh we can't take stuff off the chat I I know but I wanted to say that someone had put something there and he may want to ask his question that's where I was going with that I understand that uh Sarah Pierce we go with you guess hi thank you and I continually watching these meetings I do not envy your job at all this seems to get complicated as we go along and then somewhat sorted out but I will stay within the area that we were initially discussing which is like the Morse Court Elm Street area one thing I did notice on a preliminary map that had come out was just that that there was a section by the powderhouse and where the bike shop is that is directly AB budding water and so I know you just mentioned that was sensitive land and that would be under the guidance of concom um I don't know if they've weighed in on any of these preliminary Maps but that's there is no buffer zone included there and then secondly just to follow up my next question is what would happen if a developer came in to moris court and I don't know exact percentages here so don't quote me but there are a lot of awful uh a lot of rental properties that are owned by a certain individual or family what if they decided to let's say 80% they decided to sell all of those rental properties to one developer would they be able to develop that whole area or would can they marry the Lots like how would that work so they could technically buy all those units and uh combine them into a single parcel and develop it yes but they can do that today they this isn't going to be part of the MBTA overlay District No but I think there would be more incentive with the MBTA right uh I don't know how many units are actually there maybe there' be a slight incentive I think there a lot of rental units I just I just wondered I I lived on Morse Court for a while but I know that I would say guess like 80% are owned rental units and if someone came in bought them all and then let's say you raised it to three or four stories we'll say three because four is a a bit much but that could add a ton of density in that area so just wondering so here's what we're going to do eventually we're going to look at every one of these Parcels okay we're going to determine what's on it now what is currently allowed under the current zoning what would be allowed under the MBTA zoning and what the probability of that happening would be so that every single parcel you'd be able to see eventually exactly what the what the likelihood of development is going to be so if the probability was high with that be under by right zoning yes and I guess I'm still I know this sounds kind of foolish at this point to question again what byright zoning is because we've gone over this a lot but maybe it would be helpful just to also add exactly how that would apply to an area like Morse Court and the properties that Encompass at least three qus of that area so under the under the overlay District rules uh you could build multif family housing at a certain density by right subject to site plan review by the planning board and receiving a building permit and complying with all of the building code in the Massachusetts building code and subject to Conservation Commission if Conservation Commission has jurisdiction okay and is there any point where you think you'll get to a place where at least in the village that you would set a height cap yes we will set a height cap okay all right thank you so much let me just address one more time something that you brought up we can zone for multif family housing areas that are subject to control by the concom we don't have to make exclusions for areas that are sensitive the Kong can then come in and say sorry you can't build on it but it does not impact our compliance with the law okay so the state's fine with you submitting plans that include Wetlands we not Wetlands but buffer areas buffer areas certainly it's it's an inconsistency in regulation and one that if we don't take advantage of I think we'll pay a price yeah right okay just curious from the map that's all thank you y uh Cathy Bol hi can you hear me yes great uh thank you again to the task force for their great work um you've got some really viable options here I have a question about um the lower Pine um option um specifically where the gas station is so right now I I think I recall I just wanted to confirm you saying that when you get to the point of looking at designed guidelines you can request that the parking be in the back uh you know not on the street facing um development right can we can not just request it we can require it require it okay good um I when you get to the point of doing those designed guidelines and you're looking at the gas station on the corner my question is that that gas station has a lot of curb cuts and it's got a very it's very pedestrian unfriendly so I'm wondering as part of your um design guidelines if it's possible to do something about those curb Cuts so that if something were to be built there if a three family or whatever was built where the gas station is we could increase the safety not um and not let it get worse because of development I didn't know if that could be included in the yes yes we could and yes that was what we were hoping Happ okay all right and just to clarify um I think Sarah mentioned that um you didn't mention 21 Pine Condominiums we we do not have an age restriction on our deed so we are uh uh any age can can be here well it doesn't really matter because it's not you know it's not going to be affected by our right zoning change anyway so thank you okay that's it thank you thank you Gail any more not at the moment okay should we move on to another district oh oh Mary's got a question Mary um just a question our current zoning allows for accessory uses up to four B borders per unit um you can have the home occupation meil Salon hairdress or whatever is that still going to be allowed in potentially all of these three units um are you addressing any accessory uses in the new old so I would say that it' be hard not to allow the the same accessory uses that any other residential unit in in the town here these are professional uses no no no she's talking about in in a residence today y if the owner has a home occupation they are allowed right to conduct it m and it could be a nail salon it could be there's whole bunches of things that it can be there are things that it can and can't be and there's but certainly if you decided that you were going to do a new computer startup you could do it right but you couldn't if you have a three family yeah you couldn't R under existing zoning you couldn't rent one of the units right to a third party to conduct a business it has to be the owner it has to be in yeah and I suggest that it would be premature for us to speculate on what we're going to do for the multif family units there might well be a difference for accessory uses in a high density apartment building but the important thing is that as I understand it no one will be no no current use will be taken away because anybody who is operating under the existing zoning will retain their rights under that zoning it's only the it's only when you go and and take advantage of the highdensity M BTA zoning that you fall into a new set of rules otherwise the rules aren't changed yeah but I'm not sure we could pass muster if we make it a lot more restrictive than the current zoning I'm just saying may not be an issue that we want to take up right now because I couldn't say that uh 150 unit apartment building should have the same set of accessory uses that we Grant to small dwellings in the downtown district it's just not obvious to me but you're talking LCD versus in town yeah talking in town well I don't know what we're talking about but we're talking about I know we've got a question about accessory us well it's a good it's a good point that we can get leader on this okay any more questions har none that I can see okay all right let's move on to the next District let's take up Valentine and S that the one everyone yeah those Maps didn't get all oh yeah we didn't get those oh sorry oh je there's a problem at the top does have a p too no no these are all mine okay this is you only sent around one map here but Valentine and the we only received one Valentine that's what we got right no we're getting another one okay here's Allan to Lincoln and for the crowd out there we'll have these posted on the website yes tomorrow so you can figure out tomorrow what you're what to add they're actually in the handout on the website oh okay they're in the uh5 I've never seen these before so these so what are essentially the same Maps it's the same Maps but what I tried to do was uh highlight in red the areas that we targeted to include in The District in blue is the other area in order to make vibr so that because people were asking why did we draw the district the way we did so um so I tried to kind of highlight some of the development constraints around um uh three downtown districts right so which area we on wait no it is not so mark would you like to explain this so the Valentine uh and summer development constraint map shows the apartments and condos directly across the street from the train station 10 and 12 summer 10 and 12 summer uh which is a total of between all those buildings I believe it's 42 units as the area that we wanted to Target uh for a a um a district um and then in blue is the other area that we needed to do this is the blue crosshatch the Blue Cross hatch and so the between the Red Cross hatch and the Blue Cross hatch that shows the district that we uh discussed and presented to the planning board the uh light green area to the north of that that is our local historic district and um early on I believe the task force decided that they were not going to include any of the local historic districts and so um directly across along a train station we have our big commercial District that we had also said we did not want to include in the in the zoning District because a it would be a very high density of units that we did not want to see that many units in the cor the downtown and um also we would perhaps one day lose you one grocery store you might lose your drug store and some other uh essential businesses that serves the the community so uh that is why that is excluded and therefore the blue it does include the gas station uh adjacent to it and then it kind of runs up the hill and wraps around the very beginning of SE Street uh to those old storage properties and uh and and so that's how we get the five acres and this is just slightly over five acres which is our minimum STS and the pink area I believe down there is National register of historic a national National register of historic districts yes which is uh because those well actually the Valentine movers I learned is not really the Valentine movers it is the and Noble Grain Company or something y um but that what does that mean what does a National Historic register mean it means that someone has registered it on the National Historic register it means that it has they're old buildings these are all most all 19th century buildings some uh as old as 1850 um they have no protection okay there's no uh there there's there's potentially some advantages to owners under that but there is nothing that provides protection okay what's the purple oh that is the National Historic register which one are you looking at no that's the blue that's just no that's all supposed to be the same color I think okay mine looks kind of the same color the Blue Cross hatch does go over some of the National Historic register properties is that why it ended up being purple yeah yeah that's why it's a little darker cuz the blue made it there's nothing there but you can see the no buildings okay well there's I think four buildings four houses specifically listed on the national register of his no we're looking at this the section right under the red it looks kind of purplish there's no houses in there it's Summer Street is that rer yeah okay okay I I don't okay what we're looking at is this that's the street the street but it's per not historic good it maybe okay the part that's historic then is this isn't historic yes that's just and and the part that's historic and purple is the um former storage buildings one house two houses and an out building three houses sorry three houses and the Valentine m AKA grain style George any other comments about this um do you know the ages of any of these children I do I know thees of all of them well I can well well I'll look it up okay but they're between 185 and 18 okay I think I think actually the grein house maybe 1926 okay the um house right next to the railroad tracks I think is newer maybe I'll look it up mean the little one the the protuberance yeah the protuberance that used to be the gatekeeper's house yeah okay okay has been renovated recently I figured it was it was a railroad it was a railroad utility building right yeah well it was for the this for the gatekeeper you the gates down that's where you lived it's a single family residence and they' just so I have a feeling that one of at least one of these houses on SE street is probably a lot that's smaller than the minimum what size which one is certainly the the gatekeeper houses Gate Keeper certainly but I think the next cross the street from okay it's a pretty small l so I guess we'll open it up and see if there are some questions from the public No Hands Up any other thoughts from the last for no I think the only thing is is you know one of the reasons we wanted to include 10 and 12 summer because it's pretty well developed so the chances of it having further development is unlikely and the um the brick apartment building which may leave something to be desired has certainly has affordable yeah housing in it it's restricted in that one y okay shall we move on to Summer Allen to Lincoln this is another weirdly shaped this District yes okay so we have two districts in Cross hat in red um the area kind to the left side of the map is um condos along that's Allen Street Brook Brook Brook okay condos along Brook Street streets right and at the I guess that the next one would be Allen Street going back we have Allen Avenue but y okay consider this a language Lon eventually I'll get it right so take a few more years um so that there's a large building there that is condu so that we we wanted to include that because the likelihood of that being developed is is low as is all those condos uh being redeveloped as well so we kind of targeted that area and the other area is um just headed toward glester is the gas station and across the street from the gas station are three other buildings that are condo so that creates the red area there so um you say across the street across Lincoln yes across Lincoln Manchester electric is y so there are three buildings there so in order to connect them uh We've captured the small Lots along Lincoln uh excuse me along Summer Street to make the connection between the two and there's two other small Parcels um in order to get close to to the 5 Acres um that are within the condos there um that have single family homes on them so we uh that's how we got to this the other desirable thing is I turned on the layer that shows the water res ource protection districts and as you can see the gas station is within um zone two so that would be a desirable use at some point in the future should they uh choose to sell that perhaps it would be redeveloped into housing so that we can um ensure that there wouldn't be any future contamination to the ground water it's not good to have a gation in the Water Resource District No it's not really desirable thing there was there's a building of office rentals at 76 somewhere which was originally a gas station oh okay there were two yeah there were twoo okay any comments questions from the public comments from the public No Hands Up okay this leads us to the LCD talk yes I have sort of a comment there's a small section of this I'm sorry way down sorry I'm okay let's go so the LCD so again the LCD we picked a part of the town that is already developed and um I guess sort of remote but near where the cell signaling facility in the Mac are um It's relatively flat land near Wetlands but not in the wetlands and we picked it because we thought it would be have the least impact on and it was also one of the smallest Parcels uh that we could include in the LCD in order to get us to our 37 38 acres in total so right and and I think the thing that we we have to remember is that one of the reasons we're trying to stick close to the 37 is because if we go higher than that then and 50% of it needs to be contiguous so we've kind of crafted these areas to have the Elm Street area be contiguous and if we get too big outside of the downtown then we need a larger contiguous area well any other parcel in the LCD is much bigger right therefore much more full of potential units a question that has been that I got from someone um was if cell signaling wants to have housing for its workers why don't they put it on their own 50 acres and what I said back was in order to do that they would need a zoning change that's right and if it were a zoning change for in the mvta zoning area we' have to take the whole 50 acres and make it suitable for and that would be a bad thing that would because cell signaling is a wonderful neighbor but this is zoning is for for decades and decades and if they were to go out of business and somebody were to have the ability to turn 50 acres into high density housing that would be bad but we could have included 10,000 from the back I would like to 10 acres that was separate I would like to raise a question which I think I think wasn't answered at the M I think should be answered and that is that we made a decision about 3 weeks ago to switch from 20 acres in the LCD and 15 acres in the downtown to do 25 acres uh 30 Acres downtown and 7 Acres in the city that was a decision that took me by surprise and I think it was based upon the notion that there would be voter opposition to a large development in the LCD that question came up on Monday night and was not really answered and I think we should be very clear about what our answer is I don't know that we all agree on the answer but I do think it needs to be clearly stated I I think it was two prompt number one is the large development but number two is to decrease the number of new additional units everything in the LCD would be new whereas if you're using a larger portion downtown that already has units on it then your net new number is lower I I I would agree I'm I'm look you know my position is that I favor the larger development in the LCD but I understand the argument on both sides and I think another argument in favor of staying away from the LCD is that one can be fairly one can be almost certain that the LCD will get developed to the extent of the zoning that we provide whereas we can hold out some hope that other areas in town will not get to of course if they do we'll be S and and the other thing I think the advantage of the Calvin properties the capan Storage storage is that property is one that CST directly overlooks and that they might have a vested interest in what goes in there um so you know they they it's possible that if that property went out for sale they might purchase it so that they could control it well because it's seven acres I think you're going to find that that's a very dense level part property so whether that fits cell signaling needs or not I I don't know but that's a 7 acre property with 3/4 of an acre uh restrictive so you're going to be looking at 20 units per if we unless we unless we go for a much denser downtown which I certainly hope do you really what we're you know if you strip away all the veneer what we're trying to do is make it hard to develop areas that we've designated um make it expensive to develop which is the same thing all over again and putting as to Sarah's Point creating is incentives for the fewest number of additional units so you know I'm I'm I'm I see both sides of what you're saying but I think for a lot of different reasons we're going to end up in the LCD and to the extent we could minimize the lot size which means minimizing the number of new units that's a good thing for the town it's the worst it's the best of a bad situation and I and I think if you look at all these other sites that we've been considering none of them are slam dkss to build to develop you take Powerhouse as an example the terrain really isn't going to afford to do much more um if if you go over there walk it right behind it is a huge outcut huge I mean it's almost vertical so that's unlikely to get built anytime soon if ever and I think what we we are creating disincentives almost across across the board to for people to come in and develop the units yeah I I said at the last meeting that I thought that well I didn't like the 30 the idea of 30 Acres downtown I thought we'd pick the best 30 Acres that we could and I still believe that I personally just don't favor the trade-off with me that's yeah that's neither here or there but I I wanted to make sure that I felt like we we really ought to be addressing in public uh this issue because it's not it's not obvious no no question thank you for bringing it up a it's good to have that discussion uh any comments from the public yes Sandy Rogers has her hand up hi I have a question is there any rules that you have to supply infrastructure to these Lots as a town the answer to that is no we're under no obligation whatsoever and right now we don't have water and Su I don't I'm not really sure about the water and sewer going on out to LCD so uh my understanding is that the town has applied and gotten a grant to extend 2.5 million 3.5 3.5 million to extend sewer under 128 SE yeah to connect to uh and and to enlarge the water Ms and the sewers going all the way down Forest Street to connect into the connection in the existing CT under 128 but not what's the name of the street that goes down into the LCD um at Water Aven wateren they already have water okay the back has down water the see we coming through the back door under 128 I believe just right and the water is in that same Culver yeah okay so they I believe they're enlarging the water Ms and the sewer pipes and it's going to go all all the way down for the sewer pipes are new the water is I believe going to be enlarged and the sewer on Forest is going to be enlarged and Mill yeah um okay and if if necessary all the way down to the wastewater treatment y down to the junction of the mains the serious Mains um okay but that's the service CST and not and that that's still being discussed I believe yeah okay um thank you for answering that second question is someone else brought this up and I'm not aware is if the underlying District allows certain use cases the LCD being commercial allowing for things like cannabis and stuff like that are there any regulations about multifamilies being next to certain types of properties yes there are it's part of the bylaws C governing um adult entertainment and uh cannabis that can't be closer than um 200 or some odd feet yeah 100 or 200 feet it's it's it's in when we allowed those things we put restrictions on and those restrictions are not they are part of zoning aren't they yeah but they don't impact what we can do in the compliance model to comply with the this law just do they make it harder to put a canab shop down there yes well it also makes it harder if they put a Canabis shop down there then it's harder to put in the residential because they got more setbacks pronounce I I never pronounced it that way before in my life okay never heard the word before good for you so realistically you could put multif family zoning to appease the 40a there but because of other zoning they might be refused because it's too close to that I guess I don't know up to you guys to figure that out at the moment there is no cannabis shop and there's no adult entertainment so I think of the opposite would happen if anything right but you don't have to change the underlying no spot Zone around the space that might want to have for family no the the the state model isn't that compliance model isn't that sophisticated which is to our yep all right good thank you Mary uh Mary Foy um tagging on to that I would just question because if with the marijuana and the adult entertainment if we are squeezing potentially squeezing um where these would be allowed because I think it's 300 to 400 buffers depending if it's a school or a church or housing um if we're squeezing those into such a small area in the LCD that it seems restrictive I think we could come into some I issues I don't think so because the zoning allows it and there's nothing that has ever said that you couldn't change your zoning to allow residential in that area so there there's it's perfectly valid my only point is that we developed those bylaws um to show that we're not um discriminatory against those and I we chose the LCD to keep it out of a downtown area if somebody were to apply and then say oh I've only got one spot that I can actually put this they could claim it's um but that's for you to side and then the LCD does include the Gordon Woods area yeah I don't know that we zoned it for that part I know we we might have specified just the developed part of the LCD the enti LCD that we can check yeah so we did like Northerly and Souther you know whichever F it's you think it's exclusively on the east side of of um SCH it could be don't quote me on that um we've done that with yeah the other you know what's allowed commercial uses what are allowed there's there's still the medical building there are there's lots of space so so as long as you allow opportunities doesn't have to be financially feasible but opportunity to locate a adult entertainment establishment in a zoning District that can change based on whether let's say the church was there and all of a sudden it closed right so now you can have a bigger area or um a school goes in or now you have to have a buffer around it so the area shrinks um so as long as what's left is still reasonable as far as size and developability then that's okay may never get developed might be the medical building all that's left and that's never going to get it's never going to be profitable to buy that and turn it into an adult entertainment so it'll never happen but that's okay that's legal yeah my only point was that that there's sufficient space for it to be um it up but I would just like to raise the point and I don't know if the LCD is the best option or not just um but um raising the concerns that if that area were to be rezoned for housing that may um help the 40b get through so if we're saying we're allowing housing on one side and we don't want it on the other I'm just saying as we're through this process with the 40b the state might say um well now you've got water and sewer up there you're allowing housing so just a something um the the they've had the evidentiary public hearing um I believe everything has be filed um by like April 19th and then it's going to be before the H and they're probably not going to decide for two years so I think that anything we change is going to fall in that in between area um that it probably wouldn't impact that's obvious been one of the concerns but it review so whatever they have in front of is all that they can review yes so so all of the pre-trial pre-trial testimony everything has been filed they had the evidentiary public Hearing in order to cross-examine Witnesses and now they have to file their briefs by I think it's April 19th um I think they were only giving away 30 days and then um then it's sitting with the HC and no more evidence can be brought in okay well that's good I mean obviously if the HJC does not vote in our favor or either way it can go into the court system but I I think that's water over the dam by the time you get to that point that they're not going to be looking at new zoning changes ter I mean they're already trying to argue that their um their single access is not an issue because of the driveway at CST and the driveway at CST hasn't even been approved and it Loops all around the property um but that was brought in so that if if it were a little earlier it would make a difference well thank you for that I can sleep tonight okay are we done with these districts any more questions comments all right I'd like to move on to the next uh topic which is the discussion of design guidelines you already have them pretty well set up for the downtown Districts The question is The Architects group that we put together is would like to would love to be able to work on them for the LCD if we do a project in the LCD and the question is do we have any guidance for them as to what the design guidelines would look like for a project in the OCD and I'll give you some options to think about one of them is it could be just one big building another is it could be a bunch of clustered town town homes or even triplexes scattered around around a village kind of atmosphere or it could be some combination or it could be a garden style apartment complex two or three stories high 20 units per building so I don't know if any of those are things we don't want to see necessarily or whether we'd like to see something that kind of mirrors like what we have in the downtown or whether we'd rather preserve as much open space as possible and make it as dense and as few buildings as possible I'm going to suggest that we might want to hold this conversation until the end of April till till when end of April after town meeting no after the briefs are due for the oh 40b appeal okay because that's certainly something they could use okay that's just my opinion other people when after after there it's you know I'll look up the date yeah yeah I don't have it off hand for some reason my brain said April 19th but we're gonna have to hammer that down very quickly then after that because we'll be having to draft zoning in early May to present to the select board by close to the end of May I mean we're going to have to move rather rapidly in the next after the next couple weeks so whether it's modeling and figuring out the parameters the LCD design um just in order to keep on a schedule to be able to bring it to the select board and hold them you know public meetings feedback Etc I didn't think the design needed to be done when the zoning was done well it's going to be part of the zoning package so the stes going to want to see that and we're going to want feedback from them as well I also question whether we really need State re-approval we don't necessarily design gu yeah a lot of the stuff I I I just think Emily understands the model she seems to pretty well know what's going to be allowed and what isn't we're losing at least 90 days by doing that pre-approval and I'm not convinced we're going to be ready that's just and I just question how important it is well does it have to be part part of the package or does it not what do we know well we don't know I don't think enough communities have submitted packages yet she said we could do design standards later but if you're going to include some of the design pieces in your zoning then you'd need that those pieces even if they're guidelines no if they were mandatory well they could be regulations of the planning board that could be that might be part of it in which case they could be the drafts that could be modifi on once the bylaw is passed yeah the ideal location would be but then the site plan review bylaw that refers to design standards for the LCD or in the overlay District but I thought we didn't want everything in the bylaw I thought we wanted the majority outside of the B so it would be specific to the overlay District that's correct no but what we talked about was the need for some flexibility and if you put the standards into within your bylaw then they need to be very black and white and the design standards being looked at were not that black and white so they were more guidelines and therefore they would be used as part of the site plan review but not be incorporated into the Bible that was my understanding the uh approach we took in talking by the guidelines in the subcommittee was that we would give our conclusions to Emily and she would tell us what we could build in what we could get away with as part of the zoning and what we could not and still compliance with the uhlc and I think if I got the final part of what you were saying Sarah that's exactly right the the there will be some things that we can get into the zoning and that might include some massing uh and parking orientation there might be some things we can get in there but I think we should rely on our Consultants advice in that regard and make them as you know take as much of them as we can into mandatory and leave the rest as optional guidelines the part of the question is what's what's our timing can we can we do this uh late April early May well the best understanding I have in my conversation with m is that anything that is going to be part of the mandatory had better be included in our application to ehl LC even for preliminary review because otherwise we run the risk of finding a surprise afterwards and you know I read an interesting comment in the article that I sent to ukis about uh uh from from somebody eway Chelsea and they said that every single review that they have made so far has been returned with comments for change oh really now I don't know how many that is so I don't know how many people that is official uh so I I think it sort of tells me there may be more sticklers than we would like and would not be wise to alter what we send to them after we after we've gotten it approved so that does put pressure on us it's a good point and particularly pressure on our LCD standards which we do not have and the question that we had I hope am I out of no no no the question that we had amongst the The Architects and the committee in our meeting was well what do we do about the LCD we don't know it's not our job to decide what the LCD is supposed to look like um we need some guidance from probably planning board as to you know what are your general what what what general kind of guidance can you give us is about what you want do you want Town Homes you want a community do you want bigger buildings do you want whatever now the truth is that if we have seven acres and we decide that it has to be 150 units I don't know that there's a lot of room to maneuver in that but I do think that we should put as a task force we should put before the planning board a question that goes like this all right tentatively we've decided we're going to take 7.6 acres in the LCD and it's going to be let's say 150 units and uh we think that that is going to look something like this picture and show them 150 unit building of which we have plenty of examples and is this okay for us to proceed at which point we can go to The Architects and say uh we'd like to do something that was gener General for all of the LCD forever but let's just get something that works for this 7 acre parcel with this density of building so that we can have something in front of us and get something through quickly and get the planning board to sign off on it before we go ahead with it so that's that's a real Rush item right now seem to so one thing I'd like to put on the table is although we cannot require senior housing it's certainly a good use for this cut part of town it might include an assistant living facility and as long as that's allowed not required we should create some kind of design guidelines for that kind of use you you mean an additional guideline not a guideline that says incentives not incentive I don't think we can I don't think we'd be well it'd be nice to do incen I doubt we can do incentives because it's age restriction this is outside of the NBTA law yeah that's gonna you can't limit the use but we can have incentives to do we could have higher building sure we could we could do that but I I think that area is going to need be dense and so I don't know whether you really want to have incentives to make it even more dense um you're probably going to have to require allow to 55 height just as a matter of fact the tow houses I don't think you're going to that really should be off the table it really should be what kind of Village what kind of design what kind of you know are you okay with kind of because it's out of the way the standard you know four story let's say 40b type building two 15 15 units to the acre translates to three storys this is uh yes that's right and but this is if we go to 150 units we're talking about uh 20 to 25 units per we weren't talking 150 we were talking 100 um back up back up we've talked about a lot of things but one of the things that Richard has said several times is that unless you get that level of density in the LCD we have to have much denser um downtown it's a tradeoff that's not what these numbers are saying so I think that we're we're jumping to conclusions it's 100 to 150 yeah well 100 100 three stories 150s now you're talking four stories elevator building and well that works that works well for senior which would be fine for seniors yeah even if it's unrestricted a four-story elevated building um allows anybody to stay there they'll be required under ADA requirements to have elevators to have accessible units there'll be a lot of benefits to having a four-story elevated building even if you don't require it to be a district you got to be elevator we don't have a story restriction in the LCD today do we just yeah and if this particular site because it's so low it wouldn't be obnoxious well I I don't see why we would want to restrict it to three stories there I I mean you have that number of units even if it's only 100 the the taller the building the less coverage you have and more and remember that's a lot of cars it's 150 cars is a lot of land you've eaten on but the the other thing that's interesting about that particular spot is that it's surrounded by protected woodlands so the argument that we need to leave a lot of green space in there has perhaps a little less weight than it would if it were in the center of the football field that's true and if you if you did 150 units you probably have to start thinking about putting parking underneath and putting everything in a pedestal so now your building costs go from $350,000 unit to something like $450,000 I like that means nobody would do it today no yeah but that the point is that they will at some point right but but we can't require it to be four stories well I just if you try to get that level of density you know they could do something less but if you if they were going to maximize the number of units on that site at 150 I don't think they can do it in a three-story configuration they have to go four stor so it's an interesting point because you know if you think about it that way why wouldn't we put 150 units in there well when we you know it's the it's the jigsaw puzzle it's not our problem as to how they would have to build it to make 150 units fit it's their problem and there is the possibility that it would be cell signaling that would develop it right or their own use yeah [Music] possible I think 150 units given some of our zoning parameters on 7 Acres would be very tight so I think you know that number if we can push it down toward closer toward 100 you can accommodate the four story building parking lots well this is part of the whole equation yes that's right the open space that's required we have a 55 foot height limit why would we want to even talk about stories we wouldn't we wouldn't why change it but we could just cap the number of units in the LCD well we to 103 or something yes but we need to fine-tune everything else first so it's not worth talking about at this point well we know it's roughly around 100 to 125 units I'm not convinced of that because what we haven't done is we haven't talked about limits we might want to impose on some of the larger Lots in the downtown area we haven't played with that well that's going to be 20 units or 30 units I don't know 105 units is is a density of 15 in the LCD actually it's a little less because it's 7.6 Acres so 100 is 14.4 according to her thing yeah okay 114 so no at 114 you're still having to maintain 15 in the 30 Acres you've taken out of downtown so I mean I really do think we need to get down I I'm not at all convinced that it's a good idea to lower the density in the LCD at the expense of the 30 Acres we've taken out of the downtown I just don't get it and I I don't understand why we would be particularly concerned about the expense that a builder might have to go to to make it work I'm only doing it creating trying to create a dis incentive to build well the disincentive to build isn't going to be changed by us allowing more units doesn't have to build that many of units if we Zone it for 150 he has he can build 100 units there for the same price that he could have built it if we zoned it for 100 right economically it's more attractive to have more units well yes it may not be a straight curve though right so you may to to Denny's point you may you may find 100 is very attractive 110 isn't 120 isn't 180 is I don't know but it's going to be complicated because you're going to have that threshold of an elevator building but be an elevator building in any if we if we were to Zone it for 150 that doesn't disincentivize the building it doesn't incentivize it either because they can still come in and build 100 units right if that's if 100 is a sweet spot that's what they'll do and if 150 was The Sweet Spot is that a problem for us well it's not a problem for us no I mean that look it's got all these moving pieces and I think we need to focus on your point we don't really want to increase the density downtown if we have to where we're having to make the compromises in the LCD so assuming that those are we share those those two uh components of the puzzle then you know I think we were almost backwards to see what we have to do in the LCD right yes I think I was a little bit out in front of myself there I I agree we need to back into it um I was going to say that I'm looking at the property now because we had an application before the zva and it is basically fully built up so anything that goes in there won't be disturbing any land another there's another factor in I guess it's worth mentioning that particular site um currently is mini warehouse storage which is actually a very profitable business um more profitable than Apartments so it's likely in the near term at least to remain in its current use and he's adding a 13 ,400 foot story getting rid of a lot of the trailers lot of what the trailers he's eliminating 50 trailers good for him and putting in a big storage building instead yeah and plans to do it on the rest of the problem well our timing is impeccable [Laughter] then and that's probably the right thing for the economy as well frankly seniors downsizing going to have to put their stuff somewhere okay all right I think we've exhausted this subject for now I have a couple of ideas think about over next weeks I think the task force has asked the planning board to consider what the planning board would like to see in the LCD so perhaps we should let's do that wait for their wise advice I I I wonder how long we'll have to wait for that and I wonder if it might not be better for us to offer them some Alternatives I do think they have to buy in to whatever we do but we know if we back into these numbers we're going to have some sense of what we think we have to accomplish and then we can go back and say we need 100 units or 150 units or whatever and this is the kind of thing we think we're going to have to go for is this okay with you I'm worried about how long it's gonna and I don't know how they would come up with that given them right I me the Dynamics of committees and Mee every other week well that segue and you missed the piece I said I'm nervous about us moving forward too quickly on it because of the status of the 40b appeal you know there was another question everything is due within three weeks and then it won't matter oh could you explain that yeah so they had the evidential hearing and now they have the final briefs that have to be submitted and then it's with the HC and they can't look at any bring anything else into their case they've already brought the CST driveway into their case and if we prove if we discuss a lot of configuration for residential one big building versus little stuff that may give them ammunition okay I understand so your point is that it it would not affect the case if we waited three weeks right it might still affect attitudes in town right yeah understod I that's just you know yes well that's a and I can come up with the I have to I didn't have it here I have the exact date someplace but I had just thought this thing was eight months out and it was no chance or a year out or whatever and there was no chance we'd ever know anything no there's an April deadline got it we won't know anything but we'll be past we won't know anything for two years but yeah so the next thing we have to do as a group is get into the model and start trying to figure out how what we can do for density in the downtown yeah yeah if there's any wiggle room or all right that's it sounds like a plan I I'll I'll send out my version of the plan and then um ask you have Kim to send out hers and uh I'm leaving town for a while on Monday if if there's any way I can help anyone who's having trouble with it um email me and we can do a zoom or whatever but I think everybody here probably can figure it out I also think we should ask our consultant to uh fulfill uh her responsibilities in this regard and explain to her what we're looking at and that we expect her to provide some of this well I think Richard Richard pointed out that we're just going in a circle we we need to we need to play with it and understand what the impact of various changes are before we give it to her and say okay this is what we want because she's just doing going based on what people are giving her and I'm saying I feel very uninformed because I haven't had the chance recently to go in and play with it to see what the impact is what do you do if you're a trog andite and have no ability to do that expect the rest of the committee to carry see what happens somebody else is going have to carry the water I played with it at the beginning and it wasn't difficult to play with if I if I figure it out if you want to come in we can play around with it during the day sometimes so I just this another dumb question based on what Emily has done um what more do you think you're going to get by fiddling around with the mom so I want to f figure out if there is adjusting density so instance uh powder House Lane can we increase the density there by going to more than two and a half stories okay to to get more units and then does that enable us to decrease someplace else is there any way where some of the larger Lots on Pine Street we could somehow limit the total number of units without having a significant adverse impact on the dens Denny the the figures in this model are going to be what gets written into the zoning and the changes that you make on this model alter drastically the buildout by parcel you can you can meet 15 units per acre and have a completely different result with one set of parameters than you do for another so for example you can make it 15 units per acre and have uh incentive to build in a lot of areas uh and and relatively lower density in the larger Parcels or you can have very dense parcels and lower the incentive to build in others so you can make a big change in what the uh incentives are you can increase for example the number of parcels that can't even hold a multif family um and when you do that and you can and and and at the same time increasing the number of units that you build in the larger Parcels so what I'm my point was that at some at some point we're going to have reached a conclusion where we have decided what numbers we have in that model and that's what the zoning is going to be that's what we're submitting to eohc and that's what the zoning will have to be so we really want those numbers to favor us and there's just a lot of latitude yeah and for instance there's two Parcels on Pine Street which are 5,998 square feet if you drop it your minimum parcel down to 5998 hey you're picking up six units okay for two feet okay that's interesting I'm just nervous that we're not we we're we are going to run out of time well we'll run out of time if we wait to get a model back from Emily tell her what we think and then wait again to get another model back it's it's just there's just too much there's just too much here and besides it's not that hard to do plus our budget with Emily as far as modeling goes is we've kind of blown past it because we've gone back and for back and forth multiple times and so by us working ourselves within the model even and um and at our next meeting or the meeting after saying discussing the various parameters what we all worked on and coming to some sort of conclusion um will go a long way and also trying to get us you know path go you know to to avoid to increase communication and avoid um over media law violations could we feed our individual contributions through you yes you know In fairness to Emily she's got a $50,000 count right you think about how many hours she spent on us on already and she's got to get us through to completion and not go bankrupt so she just can't she can't spend that much time on us that's for November um so let's that's a good segue to the schedule for the next month or so so let's talk about that little bit so result of the planning board meetings like to say joint meeting but just the plan meeting we'd like to have a chance for the public to comment on all this so we're proposing a public forum on April 4th be a week from tonight actually and just to just for it be like a rotunda kind of thing and we'll publicize it and get as many people interested and say that we're going to be answering questions all night long and and you know have variance and on these to show and introduce take them up one at a time time yes and and hope we get and we'll have them so that we'll be able to post them on the screen so that people at home can see them sure yeah because now at least uh a few of them are done and I'll add some more okay the next thing is April 11th proposing a Joint Task Force meeting with the planning board that'll be two weeks from tonight uh if needed another task force meeting on April 18th can can I just go back to April 4th yes the Forum what type of time are we planning on that 7 o'clock thank uh the 24th is annual town meeting now there's a slot open on April 25th which is the next night I don't know whether that's something we want maybe we can put it off and decide if we need another meeting I just assume not meet right after town meeting but maybe is also a um placeholder for town meeting if it goes past one night okay that's good to know Thursday would be the the continuation I think that's unlikely given the warrant that we have in front of us but it probably would be inconvenient to have a meeting at the same time I would be conflicted I would anything out of the town meeting yes yeah we're going to update the frequently asked questions and and them out hand them out to well there'll be a table in front so you're going to get permission from Allen yes and maps yeah Maps the maps yeah so the 25th is out uh well let's wait and see um and then I think there should be a series of public hearings in April and May just to keep people up to date with what's happening but we don't necessarily times yet public hearings public forum so we had talked about doing one on the 27th but now 27th of of Saturday April on Saturday but I'm wondering whether we want to push that off a week or so just because we wouldn't have anything for the LCD design yeah I think we should put it on remind me when we have when do we have to hand over our final product to the planning board in time for them to get itlc for a preliminary so it's actually select board that does it which is a question for I guess an uh so this is all going to come together in early June it sounds like to me Emily said mid July so I thought that was I talked to her Camp okay okay it has to I mean ideally we submit to eohc on on June 1 that gives them more likely the 15th but in any case yeah the question is whether the planning board and the select board can do all do that with us together or whe the select board would like to have their own separate shot at this I our our charge was to make a recommendation to the planning board it is and then they're going to carry the ball well is that right this is this is by June 1st we have not only firm decisions on everything we're doing but all of the legal language that incorporates it ideally yes well that would mean we'd have to give it we'd have to have is Emily doing the drafting of the langage so we would have to give it to Emily in May in early may I don't think early I think this is pretty much boiler plate yeah I mean some of it is and some of it is where we want to put in design regulations the dimensional requirements that we're coming up with those are things that have changed but the basic overlay District uses allowed uses all that she'll she'll presumably strip out from the design guidelines anything that can go into requirements and that will be part of the submission and the rest of it we have more time right I think that's right now still a mountain of work don't get me wrong that's why I question do we really need to do the Pres submission to the St see where we are in the first of June I mean I want to go back to the I found if we set deadlines and timing and even if they slip a little committees and Boards generally meet them we can make final adjustments later how long you've been here I know well that's why I'm trying to push so June one day June one day is there's a 90day there's a 90day processing at EOS so we give it to them on June and we get it back September one theoretically yeah well they pretty much guaranteed 90 days they say 90 days they say it won't be less and it won't be more more say but they're going to get 150 of these on June 1st is one the thing we have to think about well maybe they'll toll the whole thing if they can't you know act within the 90 days in other words push the end of year so forth I don't even think they've approved all the ones that had to comply by the end of the year [Music] no my point is I'm trying to figure out why it's June 1 right well because if we get it back if we get it back September one then planning board will need a couple meetings to make adjustments and then present it to the select board be placed on the warrant and hold public hearings in October so town meeting is typically what first couple weeks of November before Thanksgiving right yeah so that's that's gives you two months to get adjustments submission public hearings and that's still tight and and that's working with some that has been approved by Beacon Hill which we probably don't want to change except it probably will be as we've heard earlier there comments there will be comments and and and uh things that will need to be adjusted I think it's like getting audited you know they're going to come yeah well it may just be questions and we respond to them and say okay it sounds to me like it's just an enormous amount to get done and likely you won't be here Rich well the the thing that worries me I still say is November comes around we have the town meeting somebody gets up at town meeting said why didn't somebody tell me about all this zoning that's going on why don't we address it a year from now or something like I mean it's well we have to go overboard to uh inform publicize let people know what's going on here I mean we somebody handed us a hot potato we got to do something with it here we it's not our choice but that's why we're having these Community forums need to finalize things so that we can communicate yes and no I mean right now is actually the perfect time to be going out on forums because we have something in semi form but we haven't made a final decision ision when you go out on a forum in June you're going to be telling people what you've already done right right right and that doesn't make people happy makes them even unhappier than they already I actually leg leg we have a we have a hand up yes Andy yes so given the noise around all of this initiative is there another group that is working on the costs of complying the costs of not complying um because it is not only a choice to say this is the way that you're zoning it which is obviously important but it's also just approving it in general so I thought that was part of our contract uh our contract is to explain what's going to happen if we don't comply it's not to make a recommendation but it wasn't wasn't part of the contract for rkg to do some type of a financial analysis not on not on non-compliance it was on what the effect of the right yeah buildups the the biggest problem to me about the compliant about the cost is that doesn't look like the dollar value is even necessarily the worst thing about we'll know soon we won't know soon we won't know until November no no no they're not hearing it till October yeah they're not hear AG to track is to hear in October yeah they only sit in May and October and may was too soon did they so the injunction against them blocking any multifamilies is not en forc yet no no so Sandy let me try to answer your question non-compliance is essentially against state law uh and there are consequences for that and the losing the grants is not the not the main part of it although it's critical as well it seems to me that unless the legislature repeals the law which is I guess possible or if Milton wins the case which is I guess also possible if neither of those things happen the state's going to sue us and what they're seeking in Milton is not something we want to have happen here yeah and just Sandy may I just interrupt because I do that um suppose for example that we have a to uh town meeting in no early November and through our hard work the Town votes for this overlay District by a majority because it's a majority vote yeah and Milton does prevail okay and the law is declared unenforceable then we have to get a two-thirds vote but my guess is that would be much easier than getting the the simple majority to approve it to begin with okay that I brought this argument up before because it it argues for pushing off our town meeting I know that there's all kinds of factors there but it's there's no reason we couldn't have a town meeting in a special town meeting a special town meeting the second week in December yeah I we given the heat around this why wouldn't you do that because we never do that because people go away I right I find it hard to believe that if they hear the case in October that there will be a decision and sufficient time for us to take action prior to the end of 2024 that's so incredibly irresponsible of the justice system in right they're fast tracking it remember those are words so I think being very clear on on that but also in the nuances of you were talking earlier about net new units um the net new units obviously and financially what that means to the town to schools to infrastructure all that versus other Alternatives um I think having that Financial view is important thank you if if you look at the financial costs the you mention infrastructure um the last time we reviewed our water freshwater system aside from pfas it's in good shape they found a way to save 10% of the Water by changing the way the wastewater treatment plant cleans its filters it's 10% of the total treated water um so I think the water is okay that 10% also comes out of the waste water our restrictions on waste water are um the amount that we can discharge into the ocean so if we use recycled waste water to clean the filters we're you reducing the amount that actually goes out by 10% so that gives our Wastewater A Certain aside from the fact that it's in a position to drown um that's in pretty good shape um's under under capacity our I'm getting it all right I'm just building up it um the our our fire and police coverage is very substantially higher than comparable communities so we're already spending um more than um Hamilton whenham let's not talk about Essex um and that leaves the schools and our schools are currently 200 students in the high school I think I don't I don't have the numbers in my the the the studies when they did the middle high school and Memorial School was assuming 1600 students and we have 1,200 yeah so we're 400 students under um the capacity of the schools certainly you have to add teachers but you have to add teachers and you have to but um and we're talking potential development over a long long period of time y it's not as if all of these things are going to and there's 176 other communities the majority of which are probably going to be uh better going to incentivize the developers more than little Manchester with it little expensive things go build the 2700 units and one building s um the the area that's confusing is figuring to me is is figuring out how many new students we get and that depends on what gets built um and and the calculation that was done for by our um finance committee for the uh 40b project was pretty heavy on the number of new students compared with what SB had well yeah I mean obviously SLB has an in great incentive not to have not to assume students but somewhere between the two there's maybe a reality and perhaps it would make sense to have someone who actually does that sort of analysis do the analysis for the school population that's the one part of the infrastructure that I think we can we could we could make we could benefit from outside advice well to some extent it's dependent on the unit mix right which we can't produ and these have to be quote unquote familyfriendly units yeah but they only have to be a th000 square feet right a family you could in very small family I have a lot of smaller units and I have zero students and what do you mean by smaller units what type of size oh these These are small 6 or 800 square ft right okay which is which is very acceptable SL uh unit size for a single person or a couple frankly in today's realities you you couldn't get a way of doing that on by limiting the square footage to that extent no no I would not suggest we do but I'm just saying that um that's a very that's a very marketable size today direct direct impact on the on the projections for the [Music] school well I mean I think the more important thing here is that if we don't go along with this unless the state changes somehow my repeal or Court we're we're not able to not do it because they'll come in and Zone it for us and I think we'd rather have control over it than the state you know I think we should also be honest with ourselves and with people in the town and that is that we cannot afford to spend a tremendous amount of time in the next two months worrying about whether or not we comply with this law or not we've got to come up with a solution and then we can maybe spend a little more time worrying about informing ourselves and everyone else about what the consequences are but right now we got to get a plan again yeah right and and the idea is we put together the very best plan we can and then we and the town can look at it and say is that plan worse right than right the alternative we don't even you know until until the plan is finally done I mean you almost can't even make that argument we can you can make the argument but let's get the plan done that's the so so when they did the estimate when the finance committee did the report for the estimate for the 40b project um they estimated there could be 50 new students 50 50 this is the finance committee or okay I'm looking at the report 50 50 new students okay all right which is uh Manchester has lost over 80 lost 82 students between 2021 and 2023 how could they have possibly done that analysis when they didn't even know how many new units we were in no no no this is for the 40b oh I'm sorry the 40b which was 136 and they took the the you know one bedrooms two bedrooms three bedrooms and the number you know number of bedrooms and they came up with an estimated 50 new students so that's good information I'm sorry based on the current presage of students for the number of people so for every 135 units a week create new units here we 50 no but what I'm saying is is the 50 new is is less than what we've lost in students in three years but you keep in mind that that study was done at the beest of the developer no this is the finance committee response to what the developer submitted the developer funds going be plent students did the um was the finance committee analysis based on the type of unit or just on the average number of no it was based on the the submission for the for it was it was actually based on the 157 dwelling units um and it was based on the number of one bedroom two bedroom and three bedrooms that were in the project so the project actually specified the number of each number of units it looked at which were market rate and which were affordable total number of bedrooms is this 40b or MBTA now I'm confused 40b Sarah is quite correctly defending the finance committee's analysis from my incorrect attack okay Mary I'm sorry yes Mary can I just make a um a comment recommendation other communities on their GIS mapping have added a tab under the planning bullet that shows the proposed overlay District so residents can go in and see what properties they can map out the own a gidge all that kind of stuff I don't know who does our GIS the assessor's office and they have not ever used the overlay but there's a cons there's a consultant overseas it yeah but they hav ever put in the G2 as an overlay that's not reflected in the in the uh well if you do the zoning yeah it shows but anyway it's just other commun done it see we get that done we know what community was is the an example of this I can email you I don't have it with me but I can email I think it's easy to put another layer on I'm pretty sure conquer is one of them last I heard is for the assessor to do that the zba had to give them the partial numbers I'm not sure why the zba should have to do that you know if I can put it on my GIS I would think they could probably well we'll find out we'll find out really until now we haven't had we haven't had districts since a a solid agreement on the overlay districts that's that really has happened tonight well yeah so maybe maybe not I mean we yes that's true we may we may might tweak it we're we're getting pretty close I'll put up these Maps I passed out tonight and in a basic outline map so people can hold those up on off of our NBTA website and um and then they can see exactly which Parcels are are included or not so as the districts stand today I've been Tak trying to take a nap all night can we just adjourn this thing well it's you're up to you to move I move we adjourn I have I I sorry but I I would like to ask what we do what where do we go with these design guidelines we we're we've got a month left we've got to put something together for for for the lcg I don't see how that's going to happen I I think I know how to do it and we don't have to you have a secret plan have a secret plan thank you Mr Nixon I'm going to go back to those Architects since you won't be here and I'm going to tell them here's the deal we got between 100 and 150 units on this 7 acre parcel tell us what it's going to look like okay that's good that's what I think you should do good and then then we have to put something in front of the planning voard and get them to bless it then we have to tell the Architects to go off and give us some Direct that's got to happen really fast because uh we don't it just sounds like April is it what April and early May to refine you still need to get more public comments and you got to have if you're GNA submit it in June when are you going to have to give the language when are you gonna have to give the final results to emulate to put it into language I mean you is it a week two weeks three weeks it's not a week I bet she can do it a week she hasn't done anything else in a week okay all right special knowledge I move to a journ second hi this was good you may have this all down mother me we can still hear you I think that did it