part of the okay hi everybody um welcome to the planning board meeting if you're here for the task force um this meeting is being recorded and I'm Sarah Hamond pron I'm the vice chair um welcome to um we have two welcome to everyone tonight um I also want to wish Christine delicio our fellow member uh a speedy return to Good Health um we have two items on the agenda um they are the um in our packets uh take a roll call First oh right thank you take a roll call to open the meeting um Mary Foy here M here Phil brick here Sarah thank you um so the first is article six of the warrant which is um the recommendation to purchase the um an interest in theic Lodge um for purposes of a community center oh we missing maror Senior Center be will be here short um put this and Greg um was going to join us but he has had thank you so um youing out this is a map of the Masonic oh building showing the flood blade oh very helpful Chris just passed out a map showing the Masonic um property that is shown to be outside the 1% annual flooding with BF and I don't know what B is so as compared to the for for comparison the back of town hall is within that zone compare okay um I did look at the master plan and um identified that a senior center was vertified at least two or three times and the um capital budget in the master plan identified 2 to 35 million for a senior center in one place and 2 and half million in a second place um 2 million can't remember um so just the master plan had contemplated a senior center any comments got some questions I we can maybe try to get Greg to answer them remotely yeah so I get I gu seeing the map now so I there was a visual somewhere I don't know where it was that I think they wanted to expand forward towards the parking lot is that correct I'm not I think part of the plan is to um actually do a design and saw plan somewhere um so I just don't know if that would keep it out of the blood plane or not not that matters but well just sorry because I do this work um an an expand and an uh I could also be elevated right and you know I know on a when we build buildings in my work we in a flood plane we don't include a basement for example or we have Mechanicals or electrical up high so I think an addition is an easy nothing's easy an easier place to be able to address flooding um compared to an existing structure yeah I think the only thing with that is that it said that it was going to be the entrance to the senior center so they were going to come towards the parking lot make that the entrance um but anyway so um and to be clear I am all for senior center um I think more of my questions might occur at 7 o'clock with the town meeting article um some of my concerns are the vagueness of the article and maybe that's there's a reason for that that but it it leaves wide open if we're going to acquire it gift it get a gift eminent domain um then some things I read it's going to be a senior center some things I read it's going to be a senior center community center General Municipal purposes um some things I read it's it could be all of it or a portion of it um um I don't know what the town share is with operating expenses or common expenses so I to me there's just a lot of vagueness in it um so as a planning board I don't know what specifically our recommendation is is just to say yes it's great to have a senior center or this particular location and with these parameters because to me it's hard to say this is good not knowing what the final thing would be uh just one quick thing um I did look at the general bylaw to see if um there were criteria for our approval and there are not no so um unfortunately then we could apply them yeah because it's you know what if the two million doesn't get raised right like then what happens well I I think sorry I think if if the money is not appropriated or building falls down or whatever happens the you can pull out of something you can't if you don't have a vote then you can't move forward all right um Becky uh Becky Jake select board um we had some of the same concerns Mary regarding some of the wording it is going to be modified it's not emminent domain at all um so it's it's the purchase um and additionally um it is a senior center and it will be called a senior center um but mostly we are we are amending that language that because it's it's a purchase and anytime you have a purchase like this um the the information regarding how a condominium functions um especially with the municipality that is um very judiciously gone over so the uh just to answer your question the memo from Greg ffield that we received said the plan calls for the building to be expanded and renovated with the Masons and the town both owning parts of the building in a new condominium Arrangement both entities hi Mark uh when in this partnership um the M the current um plan calls for expanding the existing dining room by adding space toward the was wastewater treatment plan a larger space become a new ceremonial room for the Masons the current ceremonial room will become part of the new Center Senior Center and the Masons will use this for their functions when needed typically once a month the large room will have the flexibility of serving as a large hall for meals and big gatherings as well as made to smaller spaces for different senior program needs um the new addition is planned for office Bas small meeting activity rooms for counseling aging this addition will also be added between the existing building and the parking lot and some additional parking can be added there as well the new addition will serve as the main entrance as said prary sketches have been drafted we'll be fine tun as we get closer to construction so we are asked to weigh in on simply I think the entering into the agreement for the uh additional space for the 10 at the the Sonic at the I think it's called the Sonic Hall you have any other new any Greg has got an emergency up onone he's on oh S I am here if you have a question or two okay great um uh Mary we were asking um I have a question sorry has a question um my question is with respect to the fundraising campaign the goal is to raise over $200,000 blah blah blah blah um could you just address that Greg um and how that factors into the whole uh project so the goal would be to um raise dollars privately for the renovation and the addition and that would be handled by the um combination of friends of the council and aging and also the council in aging um probably take a year year and a half to raise those funds and then um another year for construction thank you Mar we have received a number of um um large donor interests so we are feeling confident that the owner base is there to support this okay and um Mary you want to ask your questions yeah so then um we've got some clarity from Becky but is so are we looking at this for a senior center or a senior center community center General Municipal purposes its primary purposes as a senior center if there are times when seniors are not using it it may be scheduled for other purposes U you know board and committee meetings for example um but the council aging will be in charge of scheduling and and like I say the primary use is for seniors but if there are downtimes it may be used for other Municipal purposes okay not so I had heard there's potential for some Town Hall offices so that except for Council on Aging it would just be Council on Aging or Senior Center correct that's like I said that's the primary purpose of the of the acquisition and the expansion okay um and and do are the seniors able do they have to wait the you know until the renovations are done does this become shared space once the purchase happens how does that work right so prior to the the renovation there would be an opportunity to share the current space current dining room and kitchen area um could do some programming in that dining room current dining room area prior to the um renovation is taking place and then just one more question um I have a picture of the how badly that parking lot can flood right up to this building um and I'm sure this will have to come back in front of the planning board for parking but um do you foresee anything happening with flooding in the parking lot well mean longer term we have um challenges to try to solve and mitigate that flooding so that parking lot doesn't always flood that's a longer term project for sure um I mean the the water has never gone up past the curbing um to the [Music] Masons yeah I mean that just would be a concern of mine of putting a senior center where the parking lot floods but we have to address that um um the the sort of from my perspective the real benefit is it's proximity to the town hall and also the fact that I think using having a more meeting space is clearly without having to go to the schools it's less expensive than the church in the church right yep um okay other questions or comments um so I think what we're looking for is a motion for the planning to recommend approval of article six can I just ask one quick question of Greg Greg is there any consideration for including some senior housing in this [Music] development we have not pursued that at this time um the the build you know if you were to put a second story on that building it would really need to be a complete teir down and rebuild that building is not constructed to support a second floor um you know it doesn't it doesn't preclude doing that down the road but that's that's certainly a much longer term possibility so just sort of following up on Mary's earlier question this is an AC a acquisition of a interest in the mic Hall but it's not specifically deeded for Senior Center or so some future um use as the Town decides is warranted is could be contemplated I mean if the dog catcher needed a big office or whatever you know voter voters could could change the purpose and use of a piece of town land that's that's always an option that's true of all all properties that the town owns unless it's it has a you know res restriction deed restriction that was placed on by somebody else all right so I'm looking for a motion to U recommend approval of article six interest in the Masonic Hall I'll make that motion Chris has made the motion do have a second I'll second um any other discussion um all uh roll call vote um uh Sue yes Chris yes Mary yes and the chair Vice chair votes yes um thank you okay um the second is article in front of me uh 15 I believe um it's the article number Greg it's can you explain this one Greg since you're we still have you so this this involves the property uh that the Manchester housing authority owns at Newport Park and um as we were trying to work out possible new parking um for access to powderhouse Hill um because of of concerns that the um Housing Authority had of people using some of their parking we discovered that the buildings themselves some of the buildings are on an easement that the town holds to to get access into powderhouse Hill and so um working with the Housing Authority U we've come up with a proposal to swap out so get rid of the existing easement because it has been encroached upon and um have a new easement be given to the town to provide access which is through the existing driveway and then we would be able to construct two or three parking spots at the trail head into powder house Hill that's at the rear of uh Newport Park I'm gonna um share of graphic of the Newport Park here which might help us understand understand you may not be able to see that Greg yes I can okay so the new easement is the Red Dot is up here by my cursor I presume the at the Loop well so the easement would be the length of the driveway and then go going to the right um you're not showing that that diagram isn't showing all of the parking that's already there there's some parking to the right of that Circle but yes where your so where your cursor is go to the right to that very Corner okay and in the corner is where that Park couple parkings two to three parking spaces would be placed and that's where the trail head is so you can see that curved line that's the current boundary between the authority and powderhouse Hill land and we had an easement right along that line um towards those buildings and two of those buildings um in approach that easement that the town owns so we get rid of that easement that follows that property line and instead acquire an easement following the the driveway going to the right to the corner there where new parking would be installed great thank you um comments or questions so I have a question Greg could the easement be vaguely enough written that if renovation required moving the easement a little bit could that be incorporated into the legal language yes yes so that um that that that's always an option if both parties agree mutually agree to uh relocation of the easement that's that can be um that can be put into the to the eement language so um just a few questions so how many current parking spots does the town have none we were using parking that was owned by the Housing Authority for years but that the Housing Authority had um a need to not allow that anymore so are those the the four spaces or three spaces on Pine Street um to a lot of times those were used by potterhouse Hill folks yes not always but sometimes yes so can you just help me like where is the where was were people currently parking that's bothersome over the years people have parked either as you as you indicated along Pine Street in those three parking spots that I think are there or they Park in the interior of the property where where residents of Newport Park also Park and visitors okay and then what needs to be done to construct two parking spots so that is it taking like any like green l i mean is it just going to be like gravel how is that going to work um yeah it's likely to be just a gravel area right at the trail head so it's um the existing uh parking Drive of Newport Park goes right up almost to that area and there's a small area that would um three or four trees would have to be cut down and and and some gravel brought in to create those parking spaces so trees would have to be cut down there are yeah some small some small a few small trees not not many I think it's it's less than a handful but so up to this point we had no deed parking for visitors correct um okay I'm looking for a motion to is it Article 15 I don't have it Article 15 to uh um recommend uh the the Article 15 um the swap of an easen at newp Park so moves second any other discussion um uh Mary I'm GNA obain okay um we have an abstention um Chris yes Sue yes yes okay um so the motion passes um at this moment it's 6:21 we're we're going to recess the planning board meeting um until 6:30 when we'll resume with the joint meeting with the planning board and ATT course unless there's any other discussion okay so we'll take a 10- minute recess um and I'll let Tiffany we will still be being recorded now because I don't want to mess it up unless you want me to stop it that's okay you can um you can keep it going okay yeah I'm just gonna turn your chat off oh he on and she reminded me that thank you Sarah and others I appreciate it e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e meeting we' already called to order in so uh I'm calling to order the meeting of the NBTA task force um somebody's hold you have you got to mute both zoom in the laptop little carrot okay we're back no Echoes no okay so I'm going to call the task force to order uh Denny Hall here Sarah melish Suri here uh let's see Michael Pratt here Richard Smith I saw you here here great anyone else Chris only oh and I'm here also uh okay this evening uh we're going to do a couple of things first at the last meeting we talked about the U actual districts and we showed some tenative boundaries for what these districts of J tonight we're going to start off by talking about some of the zoning parameters that could be applied to these districts to get to the uh overall density of 15 units per acre and trying not to cause too much um change to the existing neighborhoods so I'm going to turn this over to Mark who's been working with the compliance model to figure out how to how to do this and I should say before he jumps in that that it's a very complicated thing to try to do because you're look we're looking at different parameters that have different effects on what the density of each of these districts is going to be so uh setbacks is one parking is another height restrictions are another so as you play with one it's going to affect the density across the board if you play with two it makes it more complicated you're playing with four I guess it gets very comp again so pass off to mark for trying to solve all this problem okay thank you um let's try and share this screen we so so um this screen here is uh all the zoning parameters that we have for the that we can input into the model whether we allow three and four families or more if we have a unit cap um here what the minimum lot size you have to have how many additional square feet um per unit or a base square foot to start with for the first unit um what's your height is um other restrictions um we have tried not to add too many new restrictions that we don't have such as floor area ratios or step back requirements of those types of things um tried to keep it uh to um kind of match our existing zoning wherever possible um it also has lot coverage which is what we have in our current zoning um uh for the building and then for the building and parking um and then there's of course their setback requirements so I uh I bottled um um in parking requirements as well so um so we've uh originally we had four main districts um for the purposes of modeling I split Pine Street into two different districts um I took uh the powder house and the um I took the powder house and the Newport Park I separated those and included uh some of Elm Street property at the End of Elm Street um as well as uh Sawmill Saw Mill Sawmill Circle uh properties as well into the Newport and powder house which is the new District 5 on the model um it is about 9 Acres um and it gets a um a uh unit count of about 20 per acre 20 units per acre um and then the remaining of time street again remember we we need to have a total of 15 units per acre so for Pine Street and I'll go through each of the parameters for each of the districts after we go through the summary table uh but Pine Street is district one and so what's left is about 12.7 ACR now I had to calculate this by hand because I didn't create the model um and I was moving things around so so I have 12 and the um density of 12 of 11.2 AC U units per acre um on the far right is where you see uh the total and that's we have 15.2 units per acre we need to be at 15 and um 586 units is the total um we can adjust that a little bit um up or down B based on some of the parameters um if so Pine Street has 142 total units Beach uh to Valentine is 77 Allen Street to Lincoln is 75 L the LCD um is 110 and then the Newport Park powder house area is 182 so that's how we get to our 586 so if we go into the check the parameters for each of these districts uh we'll go to the Pine Street District first um so we allow three and four families but what we did is because we have some larger Parcels uh we capped in this version I capped it at five as far as the maximum number of units you can put on a parcel I tried to cap it at four because we had talked about not allowing buildings greater than four units um or having you know if we did allow more in four units they would have to split it into two different buildings so that the massing wasn't so large um and you would have two smaller buildings on a parcel so I tried to to keep it at four but it drops it just under and I can change this number and show you on the uh summary sheet that it drops I change it to four and we go to the summary sheet it drops us down if you look over here on the right side to 14.7 so we're underneath the 15 units we're still over the 559 we 568 but it makes the density really low for a multif family Zone gets it under 10 so um so that's why I have that at five um to to make that worth um what we did is um I started with the Richards model which had a a minimum lot size of 6,000 square ft we kept that the same um and if you have the base lot size of um for the first unit of 2,000 square ft for the first unit plus two for each additional unit um and a 6,000 square foot lot you could get three units so there's a a number of lots in that District that are between 6 and 7 um th000 Square ft so allowing for this allows us to um have that cap on the totals to disperse um units across the entire district and um that was done because that's we have talked about trying to maintain the same kind of character for Pine Street in the uh these areas so that's what we have in town is that we have a mix of multi-unit buildings with singles but none of them are very large so how would a lot that's smaller than 6,000 Fe it would not it would only still be able to do what's in the underlying District it wouldn't even though it's in the district yes okay so it would be able to have a single family home um we kept the height at 2 and 1 half stories um it doesn't really Chang 2 and a half to three stories so um the model in any way it does change it between two and three three and four um so we left uh the existing uh height um um then as far as the dimensional standards for building coverage and uh lot coverage uh because it's in the D1 District uh most of Pine Street or at least the front portions of most of those buildings we kind of mirrored what's required in the D District so that's where that is um again that really didn't change the model whether I make it 70% or not um it's in this particular case that kind of kept it the same it may require mean that or if I made it 50% it just would mean that you'd have to have maybe a smaller footprint for the building um in order to uh so and then we kept the setbacks at 10 feet all around for uh which is what the D District requires and the parking is the same as we require elsewhere in town at 1.5 um and that's those are the pr parameters that we use to get to the results for district one uh because we split the Pine Street District I'll go quickly over to District five which is the other part of Pine Street and um actually I can to the checklist parameters and go over to Newport and powder house so the Newport Park is the U the property of Park plus two single family homes and again powder house is is powder House Development plus the condos across the street and Sawmill Circle and um the ab budding couple commercial properties I didn't have time to create another map for this just yet but I will do that and send that around um so here we again we uh did the same 6,000 um for uh for minimum lot size and 2,000 for each of the uh each the first unit and each additional unit but we did increase the height to four stories in this location um by doing so that allows us to get um um additional units in this this District um so uh the buildings in this District are either already all condos or are high density housing already so Newport Park Newport Park and powder house are together for the purposes of this District how did you use uh it's four stories so when we draft the zoning we'll put a height that corresponds to a four story building have you um definitively determined the Newport Park is not in excluded land yes um it is not excluded land um it can be changed it's uh our zoning will not require that it be senior housing or continue to be senior housing that's a different issue yeah so it's it's all about what you pass for your zoning so your zoning can't be exclusive so can restrict it to senior but that doesn't impact did you say 2,000 foot units no 2,000 square fet per unit per unit land area yeah land area so one are we still with the 1,000 you don't yes yes yes 1,000 liveable space yeah well no you don't put that the no that's in the model already we can't change it yeah that's a minimum size but um what's square feet the amount of land area per unit oh so the footprint yes no no so it's a minimum a lot has to be at least 6,000 square feet see and for the first unit you need at least 2,000 yeah so when 6,000 square feet that allows for three units if you had 12,000 square feet that would be six units and and and and if you allow 40% lot coverage which is what I zoning allows 40% of 6,000 square ft is 2400 square feet so you could have a 2400 square foot footprint for your building so the units could be larger than th but I believe the Thousand is the minimum that's required just the calculation calculation Bott us okay that's what the bottle uses okay and you're saying that same thing for Newport Park and for powderhouse all all of them yep and how about setbacks and so the setbacks are the same uh five feet and 10 on the sides and rear that's the current General District Z and same thing with the the the loot coverage 40 70 and 70 which is again um the general Zone and we left the parking at 1.5 right here and those are the parameters that we set for uh District Five can can we just um go over um Morse Court that in the Pine Street not in the Newport Park Power House Lane is that correct yes so that's limited to the four units for a lot okay well it would be five five sorry yeah five okay assuming the lot was big enough right exactly most of those lots I don't think would be big enough to get five some would have nothing but you need at least 6,000 square feet so to do to do the overlay yes yes you need 6,000 ft to be able to do three you'd need 8,000 square ft to do four and You' need 10,000 square feet to do the maximum of and just an opsh question if you had a lot that was 12,000 square feet could you go for an anr under the MBTA um not NE no because well it depends how we rate the zoning so if we this is an overlay where we're pretty much writing the Zoning for units so we don't have to change I don't believe we have to change the underlying District size so if the district requires what's the D District look 6,000 6,000 6,000 oh so if you had a if you were in the D district and you had 12,000 or more you could split it into well but but if you had 10 what's say no on Pine Street mhm the underlying district is a which is 22,500 so you could not use that D District 6,000 square foot feet to split the lot unless you've got the 22,500 remaining in the back I see okay so you're you're restricted that one it's yeah it's okay so whereas moris Court's different because that's General District would you say that again Sarah I don't think I understand so on the south side of no west side of Pine Street y it's in District a which requires a lot of 22,500 however the first 100 feet from Pine Street into those lots is District yeah D which only needs 6,000 square ft and allows two family homes right so to do an anr you need a legal lot so you wouldn't be able to create two lots unless you had at least one left in the back of 22,500 square feet and then you wouldn't have Frontage so you wouldn't be able to do an an anr unless you had double the width if you had a a 45,000 foot lot you could split it in two just like you can today but you can't do it because you have 6,000 in 6,000 yeah right you got to have the frontage so okay any other questions on district one and five now District 1 and five will be still a contiguous district with two these will be a subdistrict for the powderhouse Newport which will have its own zoning requirements as opposed to the other one but they are the Pine Street area but they are contiguous so that still counts toward our large contiguous parcel which needs to be um more than 18.5 five acres so um so that works good so the next one District Two is Beach Street to Valentine so starts at the corner of Beach Street where the gas station is it goes up Summer Street includes the condos and apartment complexes it crosses over at the substation um includes that in the house up by the corner and wraps around C Street to the end of uh um the Valentine storage the corner of tapal street so uh that is um again minimum of 5 Acres so we're at our 5 acre minimum um and uh we have here 77 units um in that District I can tell you that we already have 46 units in that District so um the incremental difference is um uh about 31 um and uh we have a density of of 15.4 so um so if we go to the checklist parameters show you how we got to that number so in this District we use pretty much the same numbers that we've been using all um where we um allow a three or four five uh or more dwellings per parcel um we can't put a cap because we have the uh apartments and condos are a total of 41 units between those two properties so can't really cap that um we have uh 6,000 square foot minimum 2500 for the first unit 2,000 for each additional um three stories in height because many of the apartment uh or condo buildings along that street are three stories um we kept the uh lot coverage the same as in the general at 4070 and 70 the setbacks we kept the same as again because it's in the General District so we kept those the same and the parking requirements are again uh the same one and a half per unit um that's what be and existing that that's in uh General yes is in general except for Valentine movers is District day C Street C Street SE Street District down now we did I did think about creating splitting this District into two into a little subdistrict for the uh C and SE Street side of Summer Street and the other uh side of sumus street so that we perhaps could put a cap on those buildings um on the the uh the bigger Parcels along SE Street um and um so we could do that the only thing is I can't create a six District in this model so um it would only reduce maybe the model by a few units um and the density probably wouldn't change very significantly so the model doesn't allow you to do so no you it does allow you to do subd districts but you'd have to start a whole another model you can only put five districts on a model so you have to start a whole another model spreadsheet and um and uh so can I ask on this since this is a different um zoning than G with greater setbacks currently what is a a yeah it's only one property in a oh only three properties in a so there's yeah there's all the rest is General yeah yeah but I'm just saying for those properties where those houses and neighbors are used to a buffer setbacks can we honor that and still keep the numbers so you know if you're going from a 25 30 foot setep back to a five or 10 that's a big difference I don't think it make any difference I think you probably can do it they don't have setbacks of that size in that on that street on C Street one of those houses is very close to the road both no I'm not saying what currently exists I'm just saying if house we have bigger if a house was to be taken down for M you know to increasing the setbacks wouldn't wouldn't cause much that would be a subd district that he said couldn't do in this model yeah I mean yeah but I'm just suggesting that you know we we can look at doing taking this um so we can kind of pass it out you I don't know how to get up more than one thing at once here we should just take one yeah I started I started putting a map together and then I realized I can't really this way at least I can show show you yeah um even though I can't do it right now but if everyone's good with the concept um I can forward what we we're okay with to Emily for her to put it into a final model Emily's already exceeded her allotment time for modeling so um so if we can kind of come to a general consensus even though it's not final final I can bring this to her she can do the um such so how many hours did she I don't know what it is pass one on so that would include your Valentine and um there's other hard properties there it it looks like the um the substation property unfortunately goes up in between the two small residential lots on SE street is that correct no I'm looking at the like can I make a point on those Sea Street Properties this is Richard um I think they're all I think none of them qualify for multif family units except for the warehouse they're too small they're too small if you look on the if you look on the dwelling units per acre column you'll see Zero for uh for four8 H and uh zero C Street but the reason to include them is to make that continuous District right correct is to make the district corre right size yeah I'm sorry Richard you said there they not do the MBTA overlay on C Street they would family houses because the lots are too small smaller than 6,000 yes that's what Richard say that's what he's saying well numbers I I'm just column in the compliance model for those properties zero units per acre well I think number five five c yeah that's the one at the corner well number five is the warehouse is no no the other the other Corner Richard 34 Tappen is the warehouse yes oh no that's T yeah the corner of C you're right five five qualifies yeah could have six yeah but that's that's you're right that's about the only one and in that District you said there are currently 40 units in in the in the total District is 46 and the but in the subd district in that subd District right now there's four okay and um and possible total allowed in that district is 77 in the combination of the two combination of two yes and then how many in the subd district it would be 6 Plus 8 would be unless we put a cap on the number per lot we could do that in that that C Street area and that wouldn't affect a 15 per acre overall probably not because it would be a reduction of small yeah small seems like the place to do it right yeah yeah it's just it ju it just limits the impact to C Street and Captain Street and it's only a small reduction so unfortunately it's like a house of cards and you pull one out we haven't built the house yet but yeah those current setbacks are 30 feet 20 feet 40 feet so that going to 10 is a big difference well under the zon they are what exists in reality is different different right and I don't think we want to Zone the overlay larger than what's actually there yeah my only point was that when you buy into a district you look you know most people don't but you would say okay well I know like my rear setback is 40 my neighbors is 40 if nothing is there now nothing's going to be built I'm G to have an 80 foot buffer if I'm back to back but remember 2third to three4 of the properties are non-conforming so people do not have that today and I think that's the challenge with our zoning is the districts don't make sense um in consideration of the existing Lots there were zoning put on which have much larger acreage than what's actually there per lot and so it doesn't make sense in the overlay District to go to the underlying zoning if that's not there can I can I just make sure I understand even leaving aside everything MBTA wise right I get what you're saying there's non-conforming stuff there right now but if someone went in bought one of those properties knocked it down they'd have to abide by the setbacks no because they'd be grandfathered by theint so if there's an existing structure um and it's in the setbacks you can re build that structure on the existing footprint with just a building permit if you want to go further into the setback you need a special permit um you know and I have one next to me that's going to be torn down and rebuilt and it's totally non-conforming and they have to go for special permits because the footprint is going to be different but it's and that's the way it is in a large part of town down yeah but even dist yeah all over the place were out on District e for a special permit and those houses on Harbor Street all those lots are under sized they're in the 20 to 25,000 20 to 25,000 here we are it's 1960 right rather than 990,000 square feet so yeah you think 65% of the parcels of land in town are 9 no I understand that and and the zoning bylaws went in to say you know okay that's not good let's try to you know put something over that for future but I'm so I'm just I mean I understand the points I'm just saying um if we can and it doesn't change it what's the difference try see happens see what happens how far can we push it out or not you know so so um okay so that was the what's labeled here as Beach to Valentine um District Two District Three is out um up on further up Summer Street towards ler uh going from Allen to um Lincoln Street so in uh that District um it's 5.6 Acres 75 units and we have 17.3 um uh units per acre in this District um again we may be able to adjust this a tiny bit as we fine tune this um as I fine-tune this with Emily to bring you a final final proposal but right now with the parameters that we have which I'll show show you now here um that's where we yeah so again we went with a similar set of parameters um where you can build there's no cap but most of those units are small lots are small anyways um you can do two three or five four I mean three four and five are up um you have a 6,000 ft minimum with 2500 for the first unit and um 2,000 for each additional uh we kept the building height at 2 and a half stories we didn't change that we um didn't change the lot coverage and the building coverage requirements those are the same as the underlying District um it's General District there we didn't change uh setback requirements those are the same and the parking requirements are the same at 1 and a half per unit so how much uh that's 70% uh for total lot coverage and 40% for building who she's looking for and um now again if you go back and remember our map from before about more than half of that district is already um targeted targeted because it's already existing condos um Brook Brook Street condos yes the Brook Street condos also at the end of Summer Street across from the Gap Station those two and three unit buildings are pondos as well so um um so unless there's any questions about that do you know how many existing units are there so the existing unit count is um we had that last week 31 31 units I pass uh I started doing counts but uh 75 so I started the doing these maps that show the unit counts but we modeling is and adjusting TR to get the bance has there been any discussion with beyond the half mile to increase the parking requirements since it's I don't not Transit oriented anymore you're talking about District 4 great segue we will get to that unless there's any other questions about this district is this a half mile uh yes that is within the half mile so only Newport Park is out of the half mile no Newport Park is majority is in the half mile yeah okay it's it's the um the LCD is the which is District Four should we get right to District 4 everyone's excited be we want to call it yes yeah I didn't get a chance to change it here but I can um so some table okay here we go the state's telling us at 7.6 Acres um with the parameters we get 110 units which is 14.5 units per acre so we're just slightly under um so if we go to this um so you will see that we again we allow two three I mean three four and five and up uh buildings um as far as minimum lot size um 27,800 is 5 acres and in size which is what the underlying zoning district is so we put that there um I put 4,000 for the first unit and 3,000 square ft for each additional unit um and then I added in a five story height limit because the zoning District allows 55 ft um for the max height there so could I clarify that that's for commercial we could have different for residential we could yes but since the area is zone for that height and people uh would accept that for commercial for a commercial building I thought would just try and maintain that there um it allows us it helps us to get the the density um the um uh lock coverages here I kept the 40% building coverage um and 60% for building and lock coverage um I believe the LCD I to pull it out it was I think it was 40 and 50 it might have been 40 and 50 but I think we wanted to increase that a little bit have a little more coverage um uh on that there is look up and um and as far as setbacks go yeah it's 40 and 60 40 and 60 okay so we did consistent so we did keep that consistent what we did change is the uh setbacks from the property lines and um that District requires I believe it's pretty pretty large I think it's 150 from any Street and 100 from any other lot line so I felt that that would was a little excessive to have such a especially given the location of the parcel that we were having we've chosen here so we reduced it to 50 feet all around um that still gives us uh plenty of room for buffer um from one property which would be the CST property giv some flexibility drainage design and other types of things so um so that's why we put 50 across the board there and here's the answer to Mary's question about parking because it is not really Transit oriented aside from the highway so um most of the larger units probably will have two cars um so um we required two parking spaces per unit there and so those are the parameters but those parameters still get you um 110 units out there so that allows for a fairly substantial development that um a lot of multi-unit Builders would be interested in being um should uh that property ever be put on the market so so one thing I'd point out about the parking is uh at one and a half spaces per unit you're talking about an acre of parking for and at two units per space you're talking about an acre and a half Park so if we're trying to protect the open space on the wetlands we might want to think about parking a well it's kind of disturbed already yeah that's that property is 100% Disturbed I mean there's nothing really there to preserve um and anything that would be designed would go through a full engineering and you know and review and new trage and so they could do a garage yeah we probably add screening and buffering requirments around the property other things for specifically for that District what's what's the height restriction again for District 4 uh well it would be five stories and the height is uh 55 that's the current height restriction for that cell today for commercial because it's commercial District right so here here's my real question like just for the sake of argument if you made that five down to three because everything's connected now you're going to lower the number of units for district four and you're going to have to push it up somewhere else yes yes right you're push it up in the downtown yeah so we were trying to kind of keep this at the 15 units per acre so that we can uh play around in the downtown and have some a little higher some a little lower so that we get that average of 15 because every new unit in District 4 is um is a new unit to the community there's no underlying units that you can subtract or say for example those are condos so even though you might be able to build four units on that lot there's two Condos for example Brook Street on each of those lots you're not going to see those being purchased and knocked down and redeveloped so what what was the Assumption on the parking in terms of if I'm might so it's 300 square feet per parking space 300 not 250 300 is the model uses 300 okay if I might point out too that uh that district is already um even even at the density we're doing it's already lower than the target the densities in two of the downtown districts so I mean I I I would have preferred to see it even tenser but uh um it's it would be very tough to lower it I think it would be interesting to to some degree to give these dimensional requirements to the architect and say if our direction to them is going to be make a new neighborhood in the LCD can you do it with these see what they have to say about it first thing that they will say is is we want more Acres yeah that's right they've already said that Richard um and they will say less parking yep less asphalt and they might say now can you pay us for our he try we gave them our same salaries um but anyway it might be an interesting exercise to do and get they might give you some ways to tweak it that would be of interest well if everyone's kind of comfortable with this I will forward it to them and then I will send it to Emily for a final modeling and um tweet so that we can then review it before we start actually crafting the zoning that makes this work I know it's pretty straightforward mat but is there a road that shows the Delta like in other words District 4 you got 110 minus Zer obviously the answer is 110 I mean I guess in my mind it be nice to have a row that I started Al so that I started a different chart we Emily gave us a chart when those numb but that was incorrect chart was incorrect okay working on a correct I was working to correct that chart okay the wrong thing just to make sure I got to write district one is 142 minus 142 so it's zero right no no no no there are a significant number of units on P Street yeah and so for example the beach the Valentine is 77 but currently there are 40 47 units there so you could knocked everything down build 30 additional units so what's the difference between final unit capacity per District row and the row that says total units and station in other words for District 4 it makes sense to me right because it says 110 that's how many a developer could build and then then the row total units in station area says zero which makes sense to me because obviously there's no there right right right yep oh it's just counting what's required in the station area I think I think that's just within the half mile yes yeah that would be my guess it has nothing to do with what's already there there's a I can show you this chart if you'd like to see it then the r I'm looking for really doesn't exist which is the right I mean other than District Four which I obviously I can do yeah it's a good idea to have it though I think Mark is working on it so I I have an important data point yes it is it is um yall think it's I think it's going to be particularly important when you go to town meeting of course oh my gosh yes so I how do I share a different app so the share Alan to link currently has 32 okay so yeah SO2 Allan to Lincoln so I I have a just I have a new chart but it's not that's in the map he gave us yeah the map he gave us has the number of units um so I've done the beach to se Street which is the one we were talking about which is 46 and and the potential is 47 I mean 77 and Allen to Lincoln is 32 with the potential to 75 um and then and uh of course Bieber dam is zero and 110 um I haven't done the others right now um but yeah you have a rough estimate so for well how many units are powderhouse do 29 29 29 and how many are at um Newport 32 32 I included six two families that's 12 plus this how's that AI working for put putting out numbers on the Fly is dangerous let's not do this dangerous give you a chance to I can't do Pine Street but that that Newport powder house would roughly be let's say um five six seven eight is roughly about 85 units now and um uh up on that chart what's it say for 182 so so it's maybe could be as much as 100 extra however many of those are there's also a lot of condos and I I I think it then the day it's already in Excel right so you just need another row to kind of drop this right he's working on it like really I mean Emily had done it and hers was incorrect wrong so no it's like I second that comment where it's trying to be done on the Fly and this is not the kind of thing to need to be done we don't want to give an estimate that's incorrect right but he's continuing to try to do it on the Fly I'm saying I want it and I understand it can't be like just produced like this okay can I ask you a question about the non-conforming line line um I believe those would be pars that are small yeah under 6,000 under the six okay so small number so we had just said there's so many non-conforming but within that District No that's not a non-conforming lot under zoning that is saying that for purpose of the model it's less than 6,000 square feet so there would be no multif family on it correct correct but the actual Parcels within the district nonconforming could be more than that right we're just looking at the we're just looking at the so if we're looking at district one and it says final unit capacity for District 142 am I looking at this to say then only six of those those are non-conforming now only six of those couldn't have multif family buil on right okay so it's a different meaning of nonconforming right so 136 could be Zone under multif family oh yes no no there's not the 142 is the total units that's not the total Lots okay so where do I see total Lots total Lots yeah total Parcels in the I don't know that there's a total parcel L the you can just go to the parel that might be to the parcel Tab and look at the number Lin may just for me I could more where did you say to go Richard partial tab indidual District tabs so just go I think the first one is at line 21 20 so just look for the last 20 from it so for examp one has 50 Parcels because it's or 55 Parcels because it starts at 20 and ends at 75 oh he's looking at the detail sheet oh I see he's looking at the detail sheet like this one here yes it's not as far as I know it's not it's not spit out oh actually total Parcels I don't I don't see it anywhere as a explicit list thing is total Parcels up in that gray box on the left hand side there is a total parcel but it says zero zero which is clearly wrong well we have to complain to the state about that but if they know is non-conforming they must know how many it's just not it's not printed out in a nice neat fashion for us so it's something Mark has to do by hand the model is not designed to give us good data it's designed that's good to know it's designed to show whether you're conforming with the law right right you're complying with is blind existing information it doesn't care but we care we care obviously yeah I think that to that that total parcel's fieled as a bug fny field can I just clarify some things when you we've said that the number of possible UNS um that means um the zoning with just these curent these these parameters would um a full buildout would would allow that many units but that is um silent on if the parcel has wet lenss or is is constrained by flood um or has ledge or has or has build you know building constraints um so it's silent to those other uh physical uh constraints doesn't also silent to the fact that um in the recent past Elm Street was just fully built was just um new new construction was recently built out it doesn't care about it doesn't care about that it just assumes that that everything was white clean and there was no water and there was no uh Wetlands it just uses the FEMA maps to exclude land so yes so it does calculate some excluded land some excluded land okay areas basically that we're including have virtually very little if any excluded land because most of what we're proposing is already developed land right okay which is helps to keep the the uh the Delta the difference and also the likelihood that we're going to get that number right so that'll loud you loud unit number is much higher than anything that is gonna be built reasonably built reasonably built in a cost effective I I think the other thing you have to remember is we were going after the majority of the areas have small Lots so to make any type of development financially feasible a developer would have to come in and buy continuous small Lots from a number of homeowners um to make a larger development so one homeowner in the middle holds out and they don't have their development they want and if stuff is selling for a million bucks parcel that's a lot to put in you know you got to put a lot in before you can start developing well it seems that it if you have 6,000 or 7,000 square foot lot that the development that's going to happen there is going to be small and less um ornate and potentially conversions of existing buildings you know gut keep the same footprint or R what do you I mean yes that what the developers people think well the economy is of scale right when you look at a 15 unit development versus 100 units your architectural and Engineering costs are going to be the same there's a lot of fixed costs that have to get amortized over the number of units so if you have 300 architectural Bill if you could spread that over 100 units versus 15 units that's just an example so the economies of scale just don't work as well um if you're doing something less than 100 [Music] units um another question that I have is um do multif family units need to comply with the um existing building code and the reason I asked as we are currently a stretch energy code building code but there is a possibility to for the town to adopt the specialized opt-in code which is a a more aggressive code and if we did do that these units would need to comply with that as well right and so with any other so with any other bill right but um that is another because we're Green community what we can't do is have it apply only to MT zoning properties and no others any other so I mean I will say with the economy scale and all of that that there are pockets in each of these that um either have one um owner LLC owner right that could be a larger scale or the gas station property tapen Street Etc and there's plenty of develop ERS that are more than happy to do three families and four families they're not all looking for economies of scale so I don't want to give anybody the impression like that right um so I think um it was talked about at a meeting I think Susan had mentioned it that um if not this consultant some consultant was going to do a probability of build analysis well we want one we want one with the economic feasibility yeah so will we have that data um for coming or I mean because so so there's um several additional studies that we've talked about doing here um and um each of those have if we hire a consultant to do those there's a cost involveed the one that's everyone seemed to originally be okay with was to do the study to so that we could go to uh 20% affordable um and so we have a price for that uh we do have uh the second study that uh was the um the propensity to change study that's the one we have a price for that and then the third study is the um impact analysis study we don't have a price for that so I have requested that so prior to going to Greg or having this committee review the cost of all three studies voting to um to request one two or all three be done um uh I would like to have costs for all three that makes sense um and then also to find out what Greg has for funding because he does not have I believe enough funding to do all of that work unless he's in his budget he's uh has additional funds for FY 25 the planning board does have a budget in this fiscal year and then another one in next FAL year so when so it's would have to be encumbered in this FIS schal year or spent in this yeah once there's a contract in place the money's can be in coverage okay yeah so it is possible that it so one of the other questions is how much do we have left in our budget for this year we increased it for our ask for next year and so um all that data would be all that be good yep what are these studies cost I forget what the first one the propensity to change was like $99,000 the first one was more than that for theability yeah was about 12 and I haven't gotten back u a price on the impact analysis I I don't like spending taxpayer money when it's not necessary but all three of these are critically important in terms of people making decisions so I don't see how we can be Pennywise and pound on this okay well hopefully by our next time we gather besides the public forum um I will have all three and and I'll also have uh what fundings available so okay can we done with the can we open this up to the public for comments I just like to say mark this is yes this is really good work thank you uh are there any questions or comments and I need to thank Richard it wasn't for Richard I wouldn't be able to do this okay I'm uh see any other comments from the room and then I see one hand up um SAR Sarah Pierce Sarah yes hi thank you for taking my question I wondered um from the spreadsheet that you I'm on my phone so it's tiny I really can't even yeah I know it's awful um I just wonder does that include or is there something that does show The Heights per District because I know there's really only two districts that the heights are changing which I'm understanding is Newport Park powderhouse Hill is going to four stories and then the LCD is going to five yeah so far yes yeah the is five stories 55 ft so that would be consistent with the underlying zoning District um it would be the um Beach Street to Valentine up Summer Street to Valentine that would be uh three stories and that is uh and our current height is 35t yes oh so that's that's raising as well okay so with with the LCD though there aren't currently any five-story buildings that are up there correct if CS is approved well right but but I mean that are built in in outside of CST which will be a you know that's the way that's built somewhat there's some existing Warehouse buildings five stor they're not they're not five stories not they five stories though right so and are we talking about the Brady storage area basically when we're talking about the okay so just that area in and of itself would be the only area um open to fivestory buildings right and it's it's only it's not the entire capan storage that's there the first building if you go in there is is not included so what it's called like I I've never heard it referred to as like Cal Calin that's corporate that's the ownership okay so how many if or you could so you could do one large development at five stories which could I guess I'm trying to figure out how many single you wouldn't do a single fivestory building you do a development so how how many or how many square feet as a footprint would it take to get your total number of units that you would need in that area and so it's and none of that's commercial that's all residential right because that's the whole reason of the housing I'm not sure we can answer that we can't well we can say that it's we can say that it's 70% open space and and and if you and and we're keeping the same 55 ft height that is already there well I guess I'm just trying to Envision like the the building that you look at when you go up to the Gloucester Crossing area the the four the gray cluster developments I think those are only oh but um the Brady property is really depressed it's very low and has Hills kind of on one side it's it's it's lower than the CST property right but it's still theard is probably 400 units 220 yeah yeah well that's I'm trying to I'm trying to get a comparison of what that because those are I think those are only four stories and I don't know how many total units are there but I'm just trying to Envision what that would look like at five stories and and and again why does it have to be five stories I know you want to keep it within a certain the density yeah we have to maintain density so if we reduce the den in the LCD we have to push it up in the downtown is it possible to um in reduce or increase the lot coverage you you increase the lot coverage and you can then have lower is that correct no you still have to have your density well build if you cover per acre that's what this is doing well it's possible the only reason we play with it we picked five stories because that's what's allowed now right well that's what allow that's what is allowed if it's okay for commercial from a visual point of view it's probably okay for multif family from a visual point and remember you can have design guidelines too but it's possible that we could make it work with four stories I don't you don't know that I think you also yeah sorry I think you also want to think about the people that are going to live there when you lower it to four stories you either Force the units to become smaller or you use up more of the footprint and have less open space in the area y to live so it it we we the numbers that we came up with were just coming off the model and if you lower the size of the height of the building um sure yes sir so I think Laura made a really compelling point for thinking about um creating a sort of a neighborhood I mean a large building or a tall building might be well suited for senior housing or you know um a number of kinds of housing but so but if you think about um what a developer might build is in terms of townhouse type things that are going to be less dense um is there a way to in do we believe that if you were to limit it to two and a half stories town you know connected town houses that we wouldn't be able to get the density is that the problem I think we can probably say that definitively so you the other thing to keep in mind is just because something is zoned why no doesn't mean they're going to build it you could still build a townhouse a developer might come in and say yeah like the these units will sell better if we do tow houses and he might build 60 units instead of 100 or whatever Junction at Essex or you know something like that so just because it's Zone oh absolutely doesn't mean the developer always maximize he may choose to build something that is marketable which is also important yeah build less less more right right um but there but my question is you know I have a vision of a um you know a townhouse kind of little you know whatever a little and that question whatever that is um that we can't create can't meet our goals if we limit to that kind of construction no okay 7 7 and a half acres tow hous is generally get about six units to the acre and so you if you do that you're it's like Mercury if you do that you got to do something more over year right because the model does not allow you to just say let's add another double the acreage because when you do that you actually dilute it further yes yeah well and you havea problem you have to increase the size of your contiguous area downtown downtown because it's a it's a density issue not just a unit issue it's it's a lot of M density and right it's an area issue as well yeah it's an acreage issue too but so but to back to the question of what might get built a we we don't know have any idea because we don't know who but someone could build the townhouse of marotel by buying not that seven acres but adding another seven to it and and no because they're not other seven be right right they only be zon all zon change the rest of the zon yeah well that's whole another the other thing to keep in mind is those buildings right now are rented there's an income stream coming out of those buildings so you know the owner may not be all that enthusiastic about putting obviously any of these properties that's go goes for across all of these overlay districts you need a seller and then a buyer who wants to invest enough um in that so there a lot of ifs and so that brings me to a different question concerning the the question about the feasibility model feasibil it's like doing a building there's so much conjecture you know feasibility model that I understand the the desire for it you know what what really is going to predict what predict the future but there are so many um like any forecast yeah any forecast there just so many variables in just if you held interest rates and costs and and rents static M but just those are just three things that are not static so the um propensity to change I would not necessarily recommend that we do that because of the uncertainty without fully understanding how we actually do that so until I actually talk to them and understand it I'm not so sure I would want to recommend that we do that because you will get way too much variable information and it could be helpful it could not be helpful in trying to move this forward um and uh now the an economic analysis I mean that's a little easier um it's been done for years and years and years um there's a lot of data based on the type of units that we would um probably be Zoning for here you know how many school children are you know um in an apartment you know type building or a townhouse building a single family home there are some pretty standard numbers to be able to use to be able to back that down and based on our densities in our dis different districts you um you know they could make some reasonable assumptions and also um as well as for like the increase in population um again based on the types of units we're Zoning for they'll say you know you get one point whatever people per unit so that's realistically you're only going to get X numbers of calls more or police of fire a year so you may be fully staffed already for that increase or you may have to have an incremental increase same so that's that's a little um still hard still hard but it's in there always it's always variable different sides can come up with the different numbers but generally I found that the numbers that when you use some of these firms they're fairly close to some of the realistic numbers yeah I just know SLB was one building with one and there was a lot of debate mhm um about how many just take kids you know cars were going to drive to the school and how many uh kids were going to go to the school huge amount of debate I think um and we had a consultant who did it based on the standard methodology and um so I think if you extrapolate that to five districts and however many Parcels um I think it's it's a um I mean I understand the ration now for it um it'll be harder but it still needs to be done I mean and and to your point every forecast is wrong right I mean no forecast ever hits the nail R in the head but there's still value in doing forecast right and you can even do like scenario analysis forecast right you could have two forecasts and you're like well it's like 50/50 or 6040 you know I mean I mean we do forecasts all the time on fincom we do I do forecasts my I mean that's the nature of the Beast my my experience is uh depending on who you hire um they're going to want to know what you what you want as an answer and you know I think uh you know if you in insisted on 20% affordable um you are creating a pretty significant disincentive for somebody to develop that parcel particularly the small ones because if you let's say you have a 10 unit property and you have a 10% vacancy and somebody else leaves now you get 20% you're underwater right then on the rental so I mean it it it's a it would be a tool if you could get somebody to justify it to create a disincentive particularly on the small Parcels something to consider well a smaller parcel you couldn't enforce it anything less than five units you couldn't do it because 20% of less than five is less than a unit so right but anything over five you could do a 20% you only you can only do it it well depends on the analysis we can certainly do 10% right now 10% right now so that would mean you'd have to have a 10un property before you can get any affordable units and it and the Beaver Dam Road property could probably if assuming our study justifies it could have a 20% yeah it be 20 it be 20 unit yeah yeah would you do 20% there and 10% elsewhere I don't yeah I guess we could I don't know we could yeah probably just have to get an economic analysis on the one I think it's a generic uh study where they say work for any person okay can I ask a clarifying question um but talking about the LCD I think Sarah asked that that it's obviously zoning just for residential and everybody kind of jumped in so I it is just residential zoning up there the MBTA like correct okay so it's not it's not doing a multi um multif family multif family not mixed juice okay should we move on well should we is everybody okay with what we're doing can we get to at least model this does that make I just had one quick followup with my Sarah wait to be recognized oh I'm sorry about that Chris maybe you can stop sharing Mark so we can okay sure we don't see anybody no you okay Sarah you have a question yes I just want to finish up with what I was saying so um I think I just want to mention that I I think given the task that you have all been given that you've done a good job trying to figure out all of these units I do definitely disagree with the state coming in and telling us how to Zone with that being said from the beginning the mission statement has been from the task force that our job is to preserve the character of Manchester by the Sea not just in District a district B District wherever it is Manchester by the SE as a whole and I just for the record would like to say I think if we start building five story residential buildings that that will not be in line with keeping the preservation of Manchester by the Sea so that's just my my thought on that but thank you very much thank you for your comment any other so is is everyone okay with taking this to Emily now and getting ative model done yeah yeah we're going to make the change in the SE Street Valentine movers yes we'll flip that Valentine into two subject and I should say that you if it turns out and Mary may be right on this if the electric substation is excluded we're going to have to adjust that District a little bit but we can do it pretty easily I I think she is right when I went back and looked at the excluded Provisions yeah but we should get a the professional yeah but if the state doesn't have it on their map right they still thinks it's fed but they'll we can adjust it no they won't they're all working off what is on their in their database that's all they're looking at well we'll find out I don't give them that much credit Sandy even if it's excluded it still can count towards the five acres yeah it's just not in the density c yeah and it's not going to make that much difference well it may not know maybe that's true okay let's move on to the next subject which I don't think it's going to take too much time which is the design guidelines uh I think everyone got a copy of them we skipped an item early on scheduled yeah oh okay well I was gonna do that at the end okay that's fine that's fine doesn't matter to me I just sorry about that yeah you're right um so design guidelines this is just a framework it does not include design guidelines yet have for the LCD which are going to be somewhat different I [Music] think but I think it's a very good start and what these would do is end up being part of the planning board regulations for site plan review did you send us but the thing that bothers me about these proposed draft guidelines is the draft zoning language for consideration that needs to be removed of course design guidelines are one thing the zoning theyed some design some zoning language was which is not necessarily what we're doing yeah exactly it just gives the wrong message I I think we moved that page five on yeah I think we moved that down into appendix because it was clearly not going to be part of the guideline but more maybe move to a separate document well in the end I think the point is that this is going to go to Emily who's going to give us some guidance on yes whether or not any of our language goes beyond the eoh hlc's design design guidelines you you know we're on that thin line between what is objective and subjective and USS in that zoning language what what did you say I'm sorry I didn't catch the end of it I I'm not sure what was going on there but the the point is that our obviously setbacks and so forth don't have anything to do with the design guidelines but the massing the materials the the size of the buildings the interruption of the assads all of that and this this will have to be reviewed by Emily because she's going to have a feel which I don't think any of us have as to whether or accept it if you look at their um at their language they're very clear that it must be what they call objective now that's gray what is objective well hard to say I you know obviously if you say that if you say that the building can't be longer than 60 feet that's objective but what can you say about materials what can you say about consistency with uh neighboring buildings that sort of thing is is going to be a matter of of uh of some difficulty to for us to figure out whether or not we can include it or not like I agree with that but I cannot endorse these with this section three in here because we have not agreed to them yeah it's fine in fact the section three is what we were talking about earlier right so that's going to be all Rewritten anyway and be part of zoning don't want it being distributed when it's something we have not agreed to so can we characterize the section three I don't um as simply the uh input input from the from input from individuals on what they'd like to see in zoning and just the way we've heard a number of public comments and separate them we just Strike It Strike it now yeah there's I haven't even looked at it I don't even know so strike them again there's many I don't even you know because I think you said the Consultants time was pretty much up so well no no just as far as the the time for modeling so we didn't want to have her keep coming back and for strike it it was only in there to guide the um right I think there's no reason not to the intent was to be helpful because looking at our zoning parameters not the ones that are in here in appendix yes how do these design guidelines square with this recent thing that came out from the state on the you call it sample zoning oh boy 6 page doc can I just comment on that that isn't recent that's been on the MBTA zoning website portion of the state sort of since ear early on and I've I have seen very few changes to it and when you look at it in as applicable to us um you know it's I mean yes it's applicable to us but that is not representative of the kind of thing that that we're going to be putting together it's much too yeah complicated and unnecessarily detailed and goes over all these things we won't be dealing with and feel free to add yeah so generally whenever I see model guidelines you use them kind of as a frame of reference but really you look at your zoning how it's set up what whatever type of bylaw you're working on how best do you think it should be set up and put together for your community and you incorporate certain elements perhaps of model bylaw um but you also incorporate elements of other bi as well and W your own language um so it's kind of a combination of stuff if you're really trying to do a really good craft something for your community specifically okay because I and so we will be doing that so we'll we'll take a little we'll take a look at what the Architects did we'll look at the model bylaw we'll look at with some other towns may have already had approved and then incorporate all of that into the format of our zoning and and craft a the language for that okay because I mean some of this stuff is is design related and yeah there's a whole section what's interesting is that they don't say anything about building materials which I think is a for our poost of Architects is quite important you talking about clading in there a little bit well I mean I waited through this 50 some pages once you did more than I did well Denny that I I waited through it too and that's what I was alluding to when I talked about this issue of objective versus subjective uh factors in the design guidelines and I I think we just want to push it right to the edge and I hope Emily will give us a good sense of it yeah and can I clarify something Mark um the design guidelines don't need to be they need to be referenced in zoning but they are um they can be adopted by the planning board with out a town meeting vote correct um that's what Emily I well it depends it it generally planning boards sometimes do adopt things under their rules and rs um a lot of times if they're adopting something under Psy plan review they want it to be enforceable through site plan review then they adopted through zoning so um yeah so through your rules and rigs is for architectural is a little unusual so would be good to get clarification on that I can so Emily actually every told us that there are pros and cons to do it either way regulations are good because can change them as needed the on the other hand for teeth you want them in the zoning ordinance and it's not all or nothing you can that's right we can split them based on what it is I just would hate to have town meeting spend a lot of time talking about the width of clab boards or whatever may I don't think be quite that that specific it might be a good sign well if it is then we need to edit that a little bit the other thing we may want to keep in mind is I don't think we can deny an as of right project because it does not completely comport with our design guidelines we certainly can encourage it but it's not like we got a hammer here it's more like a depends it depends how and where you place those design guidelines okay okay I thought the state say oh we can't do anything that um is very onerous or that a developer would say well this is costing me more and so the state I thought everything I've read has said that they are not enforceable because a developer could simply say you're costing me more money you're blocking me from building this if they're in the zoning they're enforceable so it have to be in the Zoning for everything well for the important important stuff Richard's point is Richard's got the his finger on the point which is it depends on what if they are objective standards and there's basically very little discretion about what they mean then they are enforc but I think also actually that's true if their guidelines think mind but I believe that also but there are spe some go ahead Richard the time lag he's cutting there are some specif there are some specific objective in these guidelines that so that's one class of things things like the length of the buildings the way that they're oriented so so part of what is in these guidelines can become part of zoning another part of these will become part of guidelines and I think everyone's comment about the fact that they ultimately cannot be used to deny a permit that is correct but they can be used to guide developers there will be a question even amongst those parts of the guidelines from eohc because they don't like subjective sub what they call subjective I think these will pass but what do I know but but I believe these guidelines should be both in both in zoning and in guidelines and in the site plan guidelines a specific is there is there someone give me an example of a specific objective that could be a hammer like yeah so a building cannot be longer than 60 feet without a modulation or a a doorway has to be in the center of the building the things that could be and if it's long right it has to be or it has to be interrupted got to be broken up right so if they go into zoning they go into zoning just for the overlay District be well I just that that's the point I want to clarify if it's just for the overlay that's one thing but if we're trying to adopt it for everything then that's a whole added right something we're just talking about projects that come in on but I thought the state had said you can't require something for an overlay that you don't require for other bills I don't I don't know how they could enforce that even if they say it I don't think that's because I thought they said you know like for site plan or if we don't have design guidelines or um guidelines or in the Zoning for other projects we can't have for MBTA but that's not what Emily has said okay but the way that um the way they could enforce that the state is by I mean hlc will review our current zoning bylaw and they'll review what we're proposing and if there are problems with how the two relate to each other that's where Mary's Point comes I don't know the answer to that um which is why there's certain uh phrases we need to make sure we include in the zoning that we're writing for this that we'll make sure this takes precedence if we can um and but that it's a point we need to really get nailed down did Mike's question one of the standards that might be considered subjective or discretionary in the m materials and Design Elements you correct me if you think this is wrong Richard primary building materials should reflect the local context you know that's kind of subjective and that's very different than what Chris was just saying about you can't have an uninterrupted length longer than or 60 feet with it seems like there's no value than to have the subjective ones right I mean right well they're guidance yeah I think there are I think if we told the developer we would like to see clad boards on these buildings the developer going to say fine stuckos the same price as clad boards I'll do clad boards if if that was the case yeah yeah if you could save a nickel by doing the cheaper one what he's going to do I mean I think what we need is some clarity for so for example many design some several design guidelines I've written basically say no stocko because that's it's not an new style thing so it'll say you know use clapboard shingles or some other traditional New England CL clading right and so is that like not specific enough without being an absolute design requirement that the state's going to say you're going to far so um and I think that's what we need to to clarify so that we can say because here in Manchester whether it's shingle style or Blackboard those are traditional half the buildings are either one or the other right so um so I think we we need to um get a little more clarity to the extent we can yes and then once we kind of get past this modeling stuff I'll be able to look at these design guidelines you know and uh and in the zoning and kind of helped craft that so that we have something to go to the select board in another month month and a half yes exactly any speaking of Select board voila DF has her hand up uh any other any other questions from the boards here okay uh I guess it's Donna first is that thank you Chris Doner AP Blossom Lane sorry I was on the select board meeting um just just um I think I I overheard before I left to go to that meeting was five stories in the LCD Mark did you did you try to Crunch the numbers on that program to bring it down to four do we still meet the um the acreage and the numbers and whatnot if we were to bring it down to four not five I I I missed that so I'm not quite sure yeah well if we bring it down the floor we're going to have to increase the lock coverage um in um to allow that I haven't like messed around with it to tell you if we bring it to floor we have to increase the lock coverage from 60% to 70% or 80% but it's something that we would have to do because I thought based on your numbers because I was on earlier that we were at 589 we really only need to be at 555 but I was just curious if we brought it down to four I mean maybe we get the units down but that might drop us underneath the 15 units per acre I'm just not quite sure like I said I had to leave the meeting my apologies I was just curious I mean I know that I believe and again correct me if I'm wrong we gave a variance for the garage to be five stories so maybe that's why it's five stories if we were to do I'm not sure like I said I correct me if I'm wrong but four stor seems very doable I just wanted to know whether or not that could be something that we could figure out five story seems pretty high thank you the um zoning in the LCD is 55 feet high the variance was to go up to 63 feet okay for vent stacks and whatever else and because of the measurement of the quar you have to do the a average preconstruction grade around it and because there was a 78 foot difference between the lower part and the upper part it created issues any other public comments okay um I am you have anything to say um did we get the the numbers on um existing units working working still okay I guess we can move on uh so updated schedule so we have a community Forum scheduled for from Saturday at the high school um and this is going to be sort of like our zoning uh1 thing where we're going to have Maps laid out on tables and people can wand around there'll be a presentation at the beginning of it to say where we are and then try to engage as many people who can come to discuss the various districts and the design guidelines and other issues um there is a meeting schedule for next Thursday which I'd like to keep on the schedule for now just in case we need to do some more planning for the community Forum we might end up canceling it if that's okay with everybody the meeting not the Forum the meeting yes the meeting on Thursday yeah and that's the second night of town meeting if we need it yeah that's right so it may be cancelled for us I I I doubt that we will go the second night but question is do we want to go first night do we want a meeting on the night after late town meeting but well let's wait we just got to I hope we can cancel it but I'd like to keep it on the books for now what right what how will that decision be made I will make the decision and let everybody know 48 hours before I am probably not at all available that but do matter and can I bring up a similar topic for the planning board and that is um if we do if there is a task force meeting on the 25th it would be a it will be posted for both planning board and task force but there would not be planning board business that night and um we have asked you to hold the 29th as a planning potential planning board business meeting I'm not sure we have any business yet that can't be pushed off to the 13th so so we'll again Mark and I will make that decision and let you know as well that's the same okay so one last thing on that the next regularly scheduled planning board meeting is the 13 or we may meet with the select board yeah that's a Monday uh right in addition to task Joint Task Force meetings but we're going to move our planning board business back to Mondays yeah makes sense with um and case anybody missed it C signaling will resume or resume Again Begin Again Begin Again Begin Again on May 28th as the target date okay so this schedule does not have any dates on it after the 427 public forum there's no meeting scheduled well the task force right yeah we'll be meeting I think with the planning board at least going forward so it will be Monday nights not Thursday nights yeah in general yes no I think we'll have the task force work on Thursdays and the regular planning board meetings on oh well we could do it that way I think that makes more sense okay we'll do it that way I just need to understand what a schedule is and not be doing it week to week okay we'll we'll update the schedule and send it out to everybody that'd be great because I think we'll have the the public forum we want to meet that following Thursday hopefully we'll have some more information on the final modeling um the final parameters to um so that we can then proceed with uh both the design guidelines and the active own text so you're talking May second and just to answer to go back I think the intent was rather than having the the task force have to come to a task force meeting and then for a planning board meeting po jointly we can get the planning board input planning board can take votes as needed if if there's such a thing as need to happen like on studies or on recomendations so I think that's more efficient we bet yeah well so for example that week that Thursday meeting The Joint meeting right yeah if the planning board has a small item like we had this morning maybe today we could start it at 6 instead of 6:30 okay uh sue you want just a bit more on the Forum um Chris had said it would be like the prior zoning it will be that format but the content will be very different we're not zoning 101 we're going to be talking about MBTA zoning districts that's what we're going to be talking about um what what we have put together so far where we are get public comment questions um you know this is where we are obviously we won't be done but we want to just keep uh engaging the public um even though we're not finished uh so that's the purpose of it um and uh that the other thing we've been working on is uh updating our FAQs uh the handout that we drafted last fall um we have updated it uh put in the districts that we're talking about right now just again this is where we are now and then we have a section about where do we go next and we just simply talk about procedure you know we'll come up with some the planning board and the task force will draft zoning we'll send it off to the municipal law unit of the Attorney General's office we'll send it to hlc lh2 their review of our draft they'll get back to us with comments um I'm guessing the AG's office will be quicker than hlc which I'm sure will take their 90 days and then and during that time continue to engage the public um and then when we get the comments back you know it's back to the planning board to uh refine the zoning as required then we'll start to have uh hearings in the fall explaining what the final drafts are um then take us to November town meeting we just sort of set out that timeline so people know what to expect um will the AG look at before it's approved by town meeting yes for this they are doing a initial review but they make clear that their review is not to see if what we've put together satisfies the model or satisfies the guidelines they're looking at does this conflict with Massachusetts state law or our constitution in any way it's a totally different review really they they're when we submit the town meeting changes they're very yeah oh they're slow oh yeah very slow it's horrible well they're not going to take six months I mean at least that's what they say um is there any notice requirement outside of public hearings for us to not to update MPC or um neighboring towns or any of the other because when we do zoning changes it's a whole list of people that have to be noticed and is there anything outside of those public hearing notices that we have to do that has to happen before we know in terms of before the final zoning is being put forward I don't know I mean in terms of all these forums requirements yeah I I don't think so I don't believe there's anything in addition to what's normally required for a zoning change okay all of those would okay uh approval meeting minutes we got a set of minutes to the mail today chance review I reviewed them I move we approve them second all in favor I was no we have four yeah we have four hi okay oh bye Richard thank you Richard okay I guess I don't think there's any further public comment we have to look I can see that there is not take a motion to adjourn that so move second and take a motion to motion to aurn the planning board meeting oh so move thank you everybody ride home here