I met with right on Monday so hopefully the meeting order it's um Mar 21st left to fly and with us are Sandy Bob M Hall Mish and Harrison here Richard Smith moris Sue HRI here and I'm Chris Aly the chairman and with us are three Architects John Harden Chuck wizner and and Gary gilber um matter of fact we're going to start off with them if that's okay with everybody and they're going to tell us about the design guidelines and where they came from and where we're going okay so what what we want to do is just um you've all seen the guidelines right so we we're just going to do a quick thing about behind the curtain how do we think and how do we get there so maybe a few pictures and some ideas about why we think the design guidelines are good for the town so Gary's going to do that then John's going to just talk about some of the more detailed items that come up when you're doing these sorts of things so that's our agenda and then questions great okay yeah that's good good so Gary you are on um sorry for the disorganization here um so I should share the screen we're here to talk about mushrooms stop um it's not funny oh my goodness um all right so well before we go to the slideshow um we we prepared a um character statement for the town which is about three paragraph song and it's it's pretty meaningful we felt because um as we all know the pound's Charming but why is it Charming well it's got a lot of heterogeneous historic styled buildings which all tend to do some things very similarly even though they're have different architectural Styles and those are the kind of things we want to encourage in new construction in the downtown area um historic buildings uh luckily I guess have tend to have a base middle and a top to them they have a lot of architectonic forms like Bays Dormers things like that to break up the massing of the building and make the buildings more more of a human scale the other thing that's going on downtown that it's not all this is not all explicitly said in the in the character statement but it's more or less comes out of it if you think about it um is that a lot of the buildings are not set back deeply from the street which helps create a a street wall and a sort of intimate scale to downtown which which is what's Charming about it we don't have a lot of what's called missing tea we don't have a lot of voids in some areas it's far there's some voids there some far too wide open spaces over that way um but generally speaking a lot of our even the streets adjacent to downtown are closely the buildings are fairly close to the to the street and create a street wall and um some of the buildings are surprisingly high and still work others are others are lower so it's that those are some of the Essences of the of what's Charming about our town and then the design guidelines we were're tending to try to encourage similar whether it's modern or historic styled similar use of similar architectural elements to achieve the same results add add something K yes so the the scale of the street the height of the buildings the setbacks all of that is what creates the townscape which is you sort of how we think about a village it's like it's the townscape and the experience of moving through the town so all those things are sort of critical to have maintain the towncape we have and to to enhance it so I won't go through this is a short and slideshow about nine slides or something I just there's a couple of them worth making points of tonight and then um John's going to talk about um the the guts and the mechanism of the design guidelines themselves um we this is a successful project and it's it's kind of nice for u a number of reasons but the massing of the building is broken up we could suffice it to say that um this is not so nice it's a big extruded slab of a brick building that had no what you call modulations nothing that bumped in or out so it's it was quite detrimental to the town and I'm told that they added Renovations and pulled out the entries and orches which helped a bit but not enough in a lot of people's opinion mine too um some of the buildings are single story and some of the retail stores and some of them have housing above uh that's a topic to talk about later this is an interesting street corner here at cargo and I forgot I don't know what you call the building the real building across the street um what they sort of lack and I think it's kind of apparent is this it doesn't create enough of a street wall it would that intersection would probably be better with two or three story buildings there a more greater sense of enclosure and intimacy um and then we get these anomaly buildings which everyone seems to not particularly object to because they are anomalies they're not the norm and a town like ours can easily handle a few buildings here and there that are taller uh and there's also the grade of the street is part of the reason why they grew this way that was that brick portion was probably in a basement originally but that's a three and a half story building and it works fine it's got a dormer that's set back from the edges of the building the massing is it could be broken up even more but it's tolerable um there's a four and a half story building it's kind of surprising um it's kind of nice it's got historical elements to it um it would it could be even better but it's not terrible um this building's got got it's really surprising with 13 units in it that's kind of shocking actually but it's got It's got every kind of architectonic element you could think of you know recess entries um roofs the the the roofs are going in two different directions you've got a shed roof Dormer you got AIT window Bay there's a lot of things going on which help break down the scale of the building um and we all we all filled Chapel Street is that three or four units each of the building someone said four units three three three for each which is really surprising building in the back with two it's really surprising how handsome that is and yet you've got multiple units in the building um and then I'd sort of end with this I think a success story that um in the the wording the language of District D just in one sentence it allowed us to force a developer to give us he was going to propose two two buildings that had 90 foot long Roes on them and through a number of back and forths in the zba we were able to get them break those up and actually make two different architectural styles to the two buildings and they read as a cluster of four buildings it's a the neighbors have told me after these hearings and all they feel was a pretty successful project and it was far from that at the beginning so through language in your in our bylaws and sometimes just a good sentence or two you can get an awful lot out of a develop and then put this in for Chris what we don't want to see these are the kind of parking arrangements and driveway Arrangements we really don't want to see at all they create big this is what you call missing teeth a gigantic parking lot exposed to the sidewalk we would much rather have as a discrete driveways to the side with parking on the side or rear John it's John's turn um so one of the ways that we started um and by the way it's kind of tricky to ask three Architects to put together a whole set of design guidelines because we really don't like the design guidelines we really like just design um and and you could work on our own so this is a an interesting challenge for us but what we took as our beginning point was the context right was our town that is the the model by which we can look at and um and try and find those common elements as Gary mentioned and uh also provide the town with a document that when folks on perhaps a design review board might be uh reviewing a a project they could look at it and point to it and have some guidance right so um as Gary mentioned also we wanted to preserve um the essence of of what we love about our town and Manchester is a heterogeneous town it's actually not a collection of a whole bunch of buildings that look the same quite the opposite it's a collection of lots of different buildings that look quite different however there's a certain level of quality or a sense of scale and proportion all those little things that are pretty hard to describe that are at a very nice level in town there are exceptions as as we've seen but we wanted to try and describe some of those things so that when folks come to town and have to start to think about how they design something they have a place to start and we all have something to reference and um and help make sure it becomes something that that is fitting for the town so how do we do that and and what's in the guidelines um it basically starts from a you know high level and then slowly gets more detailed so it begins with thinking about context and talking about that a little bit um quite often it references um that projects should look to their context and we use that Loosely doesn't just mean the building next door but it could be the street it could be another building in town right because of that heterogeneous nature of our town we think that's okay we want people to be looking at at um at lots of things in our town um and then we go to to building massing which talks about perhaps um you know number of stories and roof shapes length of roof length of bridge Dormers um but also orientation now something that was interesting that came up in our meeting was uh one would assume that that most projects should be orientated toward the Main Street well if you take one walk up School Street you see that that's not the case there are lots of examples of houses that are actually turned typically towards the South so the entry was facing south um most of the main rooms face South that's sort of an old New England way to um build things so it's not quite that simple right so we actually included um something in there it said something like uh project should be orientated towards the main Street unless there's a very good reason not to do that um but in any case it should have some very good thought behind it um so then we went on to talk about uh building facades and windows orientation of Windows um something to note I think is in in every case we didn't want to dictate style or um uh too much detail because if you over constrict something we're going to end up with something like perhaps another town yes um yeah the variety that we get is is what makes the townscape sort of interesting you turn a corner and there's something new you turn a corner and it the scale changes and that's that pedestrian sort of surprise element yep exactly but certain things are better than others for example Windows should be vertically orientated right that's better than a horiz IAL window so we've asked for that we've asked that it have some M pattern or Mion pattern um again not dictating that it's 6 over six could be two over one could be two over two but just that something uh is included that responds in some way to the context right um so uh it then keeps on going into a bit more detail about perhaps some um uh elements of of design like brackets on a building or posts or pilasters those are architectural elements that aren't necessarily part of every project but they make the difference they're probably part of most projects that we see walking around town and when it's appropriate we would like to see um elements like that included in in projects um those those are the highlights I think um someone asked you a question you told me that I thought was a great question how do we avoid the ugly well half of these design guidelines are mandated dimensional things like we don't want we're not going to allow a seven-story building in town nine story building we're allowed to do we're pretty convinced the MBTA is going to allow us to do that so um I we think a three and a half story building represents a three story building with a pitched roof that's what the half story tends to produce so um downtown could benefit from slightly taller buildings three and a half stories not two and a half like you have in the residential low low low um low density neighborhoods of town it would actually help the downtown and create more intimate intimate scale in the downtown you so you avoid the ugly by certain um dimensional parameters that are must does and then people have to go through a design review for all the other things which we can expand on before this document's finished but we got to start on questions questions um to what extent do you dictate materials good question so again we point towards the context there are certainly um prevalent materials in town which we describe such as clab birs shingles there's some brick there's some stucco um so we ask for similar materials in terms of texture right doesn't mean that they have to be cedar clabs or even cedar shingles right but that in texture in scale um they they might have that that appearance so there are some excellent products today that are simply more durable they to the uh general public would look exactly the same as the very expensive Cedar would last a lot longer actually um and that's that we think that that's appropriate you work in this all the time so I'm sure you're aware that there's some regulations on what you can require in terms of material sounds as if you've you've covered it by saying if it looks like yeah yeah we we've avoid things like Hardy Board and other cementitious materials we we don't want to name those pro products right but we can say they're are products there that could be acceptable yeah some towns get so specific I don't think we want to go that way but some to it say well it's got to be a slate roof or or synthetic slate we don't I don't think we want to go in that direction but something not just scale wise but dimensionally that's similar to Historic structures so corner boards in the building you know 10 or 12 in wide is a really good thing whether it's made out of plastic wood or not you're probably better off with plastic wood probably all are because we won't have peeling so much peeling paint and the thing will last a long time and not rot etc etc and the other way that we can have some level of control is we've asked that when a project is coming that they actually present to the to the planning board and or to us a a storyboard of materials exactly like what are the what are the materials how do they fit together what are the colors because that's really helpful for people to see the the live material so can I go Ahad sorry I was going to ask if you could comment on the suggestions you made for the administration of this of this of the guidelines of the organization that would be used to review so we had suggested in the guidelines or in our work um that there would be a design review board um the purpose of that would be to have a group of people who understood the guidelines well who have a basic knowledge in architecture or design um so that they could uh review a project and comment upon it um most likely be able to write a letter of support or let's say a project comes before them that's not so great it would give that give an opportunity to improve that project um until it gains support um and then we write that letter to the planning board or whoever for recommending that that project move forward um at least that was something that we had talked about um so there seem like maybe in my view there are two constituencies that are going to be looking at this one is um yourselves if suppose a developer hires Chuck and says I'm I got this lot downtown uh I want you to design a four unit building to fit in there as an architect would you think that these design guidelines are sort of architect friendly or opaque or not quite sure how they work I think they're really reasonable as I said before I think it's a good example we're not I don't think this town has a I think the town would support the approach that we're taking where we want dimensional similarity scale scale elements but we're not going to we don't want to go so far as to say they have to be slate R for example I think that's right going right down the middle of the road compared to other towns design guidelines but we are asking for a review of their project right down to the to the trim boards and um and then we'll pass our recommendations on the planning board who's going to be approved so you don't think these guidelines would be off-putting to an architect I I think of the as reasonable constraints okay and sometimes an architect constraints are a good thing you know versus a blank slate right do anything crazy so reasonable constraints to serve to serve the town what about an architect who's created have at it inside the good Bible that that's a great question because we we talk a lot about that because there are examples in town of modern buildings right that don't look like um some of the buildings in in in the village could you take our guidelines and design something that is modern actually I think we could yeah okay the second constituency which is in my view much more important are the people who are going to be voting for this thing yeah are they going to be able to understand it and have confidence some of some of these people are very worried that this law is going to mess up our town we don't want to mess up the town right oh go ahead so so I guess my question is how do do do you think these guidelines will assure or calm those very very anxious people in any way may maybe it's impossible to well I think there's some population that probably might be impossible but I think our whole intent here was to Des describe the character the town what what's really lovely about it why is it townscape here work and then maybe through pictures and drawings you know do like say here's why these are important and have examples and I think we have to tell a good story was my understanding that this only going to apply to the over to the MBTA zoning overlay District so if somebody didn't like the design guidelines they can go into the existing zoning okay and do their own thing just like they can today okay so I think the intent they're doing more units well they they wouldn't be able to do the more units but if they if they want to not be restricted at all in design then they go under existing zoning that's a really important point it takes away nothing from existing owners right takes away nothing and I I would like to add to something gar said because I think there's another constituency and that's the developer because uh wouldn't you agree that the guidelines give the architect something to go back to the developer with because in many cases some of the things that we want to see might cost a little that's the nature of things and so I think we can maybe encourage that for can I can I ask a question what level of detail do you expect to see are you looking at schematics you're not looking at design development huh design development phase okay so not not working want see materials at least design development yeah yeah we we would expect to see people at the very beginning of their process as they're going through approvals right most um people get to smack design early design development but usually not much further because it's a big risk oh sh to to draw all all those drawings without a sense of it's if it's going to be approved the other thing is to keep in mind is we're not inventing this process it's not like oh we're this is a lot of towns have design review boards a lot of towns have design guidelines and a lot of towns have a long history with them and there's a lot of history to draw from if anything this is going to calm people down this part of what you guys are doing the districts you draw that's going to draw a lot of comment but this is like a security blanket and it's all for the good because uh I think even the anti-growth people and progrowth people would all agree some of these these Charming elements have served us well and that's what we're all trying to see my concern was simply that somebody was going to show up with a motor board you know wood and you know this that that's nothing more I mean I I think you got to have it designed devel yeah they they they wouldn't be able to to address the the scale issues right and the different pieces that we have in there without drawings yeah most most towns list what is required to be submitted and it's usually E8 inch elevations sometimes they ask for them to be rendered some and they there's always a site plan sometimes they ask for a landscape plan um so we could ask for all of that I mean I think that would be that would be sensible so you know what you're going to get you have to ask for that they're going to have to know if they have Bay sticking out or not Dormer sticking out or not but unless unless we tell them at the outset that's right right we we we could add that to the where we where we talk about the U the the design board you know the materials board we could add that in that here here are the minimum requirements yeah I think that would be makes your job a lot easier oh and also we've described we've asked for a narrative okay so something that they could describe what the thinking is behind what they've designed um so with that drawings material board have you read The Narrative on the 40b no not worth very much but it's easy to comply with this really like you're designing a reasonable building it's not hard this isn't rocket science well that goes to the fourth constituency and that is the authorities who are going to be reviewed um whether or not these are acceptable or not to the state and they've made very clear that they have to be clear and easy to understand and check off the Box um so to think that so we Loosely modeled it after a town that already submitted to the state right West newy and theirs are more elaborate than I think we're heading in the direction of and ours um sort of echo theirs and there's no big surprises in what we're asking to review here right and and nobody really knows yet because West new hasn't gotten a response but it's only logical to my mind how that they're going to things like this they would approve you know you're allowed to have some C offs you can't be taller than x you can't be longer than y you you are allowed to say that and design guidelines are reason I think the the the um the premise that we starting from looking at our own town and the context is an excellent place to start because it's reasonable um I can't think of a more reasonable way to to describe um how we would come up with these guidelines it's very defensible logical and because of the het genus nature of the town it's not limited it's actually the opposite so we hope it will be received pretty well John I think um the materials section was left to be done on that document and maybe uh it would be a good idea to just get a a quick uh recap then we can add it to that document you you take it to the planning L can we get a budget to get some graphics uh no planning board can't even get a budget to I know Greg has a sled pod but I mean some we should meet this group as far as I see it we should meet again and and really look through what pictures and Graphics pictures I the way I see it pictures are used because they're cheap and quick and you can you just snap them and they're in there Graphics might be a bit better because they might some of them are really cute and they get to a point so we should figure out what points we really want graphics for and as I said many many towns have done this and some have lots of pictures and drawings and some have fewer but we need and we need some graphics we need the right Graphics I think we don't want to spend money on Graphics until we even know if it's going to go into existence that's a yeah no that's a good point so we should get we could get some of them we should at least know want renderings of what little box drawings so showing where dormas sticks out or what we mean by certain points so we should figure out what the document should have as a minimum and um we could probably get that together for the submission and then if there's more we want to see if we have a list we can give it to you and say ultimately um and you might be able to call some of the Consultants other towns have used and just simply ask for permission to use their Graphics you know or we can pull some from books well they some of the towns have taken stuff from our town put it into theirs I believe yes if they have submitted them to the state then those are public we're entitled to see them I'm not sure we're entitled to use them well we we could contact their consultant ask their permission put their name on there maybe maybe we' be able to use it if we cite them just like a photograph so but we can we should figure that out and it doesn't have to be part of the final the text is the next thing to work on right yeah and I think what we'll want to coordinator collaborate with you all what what role can we play in presenting to the town or the planning to tell a story to tell our story because that that's why we need those Graphics to tell a good story to support the and I know that's down the road but we can we're not there yet figure that out and we did just for full disclosure in the document that we prepared we did use some images from a book um which is a um I always forget the name of the book it's a nice book you had simple title do your house right or something get your house right get your house right and the concise townscape yes right the town planners here some stuff from Cape Cod that's really elaborate have you seen that document that okay one he's got he's not here he's on town was oh one of the design guidelines from yeah right I did see those were top so the bottom line is that the drawings that are in there now uh would need to be H worked yes issues are may exist or we have to give credit to the book which you know it might be a thing where we lend the book to to people who are coming to town um not lend we we might give them a copy or something H as long as we give give credit to that book it's an excellent book it would be if projects were done as that book asked we'd be very happy in town um we might borrow your concise townscape right I I got it from the library but I had to give it back I still I have a copy on I think the legal language book somebody needs to schematically at least work out the legal language that's what we started to go in that direction because ultimately you guys have to create a written document right so we started writing in that direction uh the words we worked on earlier a few meetings ago were just to re establish the basic Foundation of what we're trying to do but somebody needs to work through that and is that going to be the town planner or consultant the consultant combination of consultant so I'm really anxious to see what how they set it up so are we well you guys you guys are just drawn one step in a time so um part of our job is to explain this to people so are you guys going to be available to do some some explaining yeah I think so I think we're willing to tell tell our story anyway with pictures and some words yeah what do you charge there you go very high nothing well we I don't know if this is the place to to chat about this it may not be so you guys can tell us but one thing that came up at the end of our last meeting um these guidelines seem perfectly appropriate for downtown area the question came up hey what about the LCD um there's a whole level of thinking about the LCD area which is a little bit beyond our purview to to be honest um we'd be more than happy to aine on it but um context is different or there basically none right the yeah the uh lot sizes are different there are no roads really right it's sort of a a blank slate so um I see it as part of our process I don't see it as beyond our perview but it has to be done what is your opinion about the LCD you think we'd be curious to hear what you think I think there different go first I know I think you asked a conversation stopper as I recall which was and what would you like to see exactly there was silence I mean we we we have opinions they're all probably different you all probably have have have opinions we have may have some information which is I think we're no longer thinking about a 20 acre area um I think we're thinking about something that's closer to six six to 10 at the most yeah I did see something recently where it was mostly the storage yes proper yes and not the not the doctor's offices not the Mac so that's very different right yeah why not the doctor's hearts it's a bigger site we don't need that much space we have to go based on right the lot can I'll just throw out there because this just seems incredibly logical in my mind is that we we would we could address that area of town with two two types of development in mind one to allow to be very light touch and allow potentially real anomalies to be built there large buildings um with multif family housing structures and and um or we could encourage the subdivision of the property that doesn't necessarily require subdivision but we could encourage smaller clusters of semi-attached or detached buildings to create a neighborhood and personally I'd like to I'd like our town not to turn our back to that part of town I'd like our town to welcome it and want it to become part of the town and therefore to me it should there if there's residences there they should be part of a neighborhood there should be pedestrian paths Open Spaces they can use perhaps the building should be clustered but smaller massing we could encourage a whole slew of things if we go in that direction so those are two basic right paradigms I guess yeah so as a Counterpoint to the to the small village thing I could imagine of any place in town that that area could actually withstand some sizable buildings um and even a place I I was say this but I think it's true where if there's a young couple who just married and need an apartment that's where they might live in an apartment building something that's that's more multif family size or if there's seniors in town who are looking to downsize and move to a a senior housing type of of building again that would be perhaps an an appropriate place to do it um it's even more so perhaps if it's smaller you know over 20 acres you can imagine lots of different ways to do it in a smaller six acre it's much more concise think um uh the Summer Street Street residences are an interesting analog for that because there you have attached Town Homes which do not achieve the density that we need but because they're combined with an apartment building that provides less expensive and more compact Apartments the overall property does and there you're looking at a property which is only a few Acres so uh something like that could exist on a five six acre plot yeah I think whichever direction it goes large buildings bu smaller scale what we do what we do want to do is take the character of the town and The Pedestrian friendliness and all you have to do is look at Seaport or look at Kendall Square and Cambridge where they miss so many just big buildings and canyons and no pedestrian friendliness no cafes on the street no you know so those are the mistakes you don't want there's another big layer to this um it's it seems to me anyhow this is the biggest opportunity in town to get that 20% affordable housing number which gets us ahead of the game satisfy the state's goals and it's also an opportunity where we could encourage smaller units which starts to address a topic that's never talked about the missing middle which is truly affordable or housing that's in between you know lowend well high-end condos and Section 8 and Section 8 there's by by encouraging smaller units to be built it's the only way you can get the market to give you reasonably priced housing so there's an opportunity the only other place in town where that opportunity exists um I I I'm worried about that passing passing passing the review the review um because they they very specifically state that you can't it's for families it's for families and you cannot say this area is only for one and two bedrooms I but you can build incentives into the whole thing of three and a half Stories versus four and a half stories we'll give you the four and a half if you give us this um that's an option that's always been on the table well I wonder how the state defines families they're assuming that each unit is ,000 square feet that's family friendly and that that's the calculations you're using okay that's not just two-bedroom a twoed two-bedroom that's not unreason so you address it but then you provide incentives if you can work it in I think is that you can't make a require right that would be just one or one bedroom or seniors or right sure but it also doesn't doesn't prude prude Mark can you yeah yeah I just wanted to say that if we allow the the right kind of density at that storage place you can um you could uh get the kind of the standard 40b four story buildings but those are elevated buildings which means they could they're handicap accessible they'll have to have accessible units um you can require the 20% affordable you'll be able to kind of check a number of boxes and give them a fact that um you know it's kind of at the end of that road um it's not very visible um having those types of buildings there kind of um isn't isn't visually obtrusive it's also right adjacent to um you know conservation land so it's a desirable location to uh to build those and to live so I think um if we zoned it for the right density um that uh that um you would you would just see that without having to um have other requirements y but you'd have it Ines Mark right You' have to build incentives into well I mean if if the density is there the financial incentive is is enough for a developer to if he can uh get enough units whether they're rental or for sale um will will kind of um dictate what happens there let me just add what would be um the most um attractive thing to a developer would be some easing of the parking requirement in that area for any building large for any multif family building um if one car per unit were allowed that would make any project much more feasible and attractive and attractive it's less big parking lots less parking structures just parking that very often honestly can be achieved in the footprint of the building things like that and clustering we didn't mention that it' be really nice whatever is done to Cluster it and keep as much open space which everybody adors um it's easy to aeve those Parcels are currently pretty ugly um I mean yeah part of its conservation is restricted anywh a small part of the property is wets is Wetlands but yeah so what would you contemplate four stories on a on a pedestal parking underneath yeah Max how high would that be well ends up being five stars depending depending on 50 50 something the high restriction out there is 55 just and that's buildable in wood so it's still a um the first floor would have to be a Podium um but up above so that's a very reasonable it's a good model yeah it's been used around a bit and it's very very popular and it's economically reasonable but you could also achieve the density with two and a half three and clusters of two and a half and three and a half story buildings more in the neighborhood Direction rather smaller slightly smaller scale so there's a couple ways to go I guess it would be clever to figure out the zoning of it to allow for either option so I mean Essence you're talking about one freestanding building I'm assuming yeah so that goes to tough tough on your neighbors well tough in the neighborhood I think we're we're saying you can approach it two two different basic ways one as as a village where where downtown is sort of the the model um or one where it's a more dense you know less building maybe one or two buildings um with with with design restrictions yeah you you could do a taller building and it could be broken up massing wise in a lot of ways so it it reads more intimately you know or you could have detached or semi-attached structures also clusters of them because this density requirement is not that huge 15 in acres it's not that gigantic um so you still could have a it there's different approaches to it I think we should consider them and see what they where they lead us before before make a decision TR to balance thinking about town meeting we want to have as few units as possible that can be built yeah so that's the other thing that's butting up against this this problem so I guess CH and I are in different directions I'm steering away from the 40b kind of building and more towards a neighborhood um clustered buildings that can be attached I think you weren't at the last meeting um but we we we would be willing to just do some sketches to say what what what would different scenarios look like on paper oh boy that would be great that would be helpful I think I think certainly in town one of the areas of interest is senior housing yeah and that by definition you need a building with an elevator especially if it's Assisted Living yeah well there are examples you know actually to to Gary's Point um there a place called Boulders in wenam thank you um that is senior living or senior housing duplexes but it's designed for I think I don't know if it's restricted it is it isct so yeah it's not a lot um it's probably 24 or so units there does that satisfy the state senior housing sure Peter CRA tree can't require can't require it can't Peter Crabtree who sadly passed away and worked with us on the accessory drawing unit by a LW um gave me he did a lot of friendly 40 BS throughout the state and he gave me a number of um of PDFs of different projects he worked on or liked and there there are some that are larger structures but are just beautiful you know they create an environment so there's some there's some examples yeah and an example was mentioned in our last meeting um um Maple Woods which is also in wam actually which is senior housing it's two or three stories but it's back in the woods there's a large parking lot in front of it but it's it's attractive large you to say that is a parking lot in front of it Assisted Living generally go somewhere requirements parking right yeah I think the visuals be a huge help yeah because yeah so to the parking Point sketches well if you or if J I mean if you've got PDFs of examples yeah that's a terrific thing to to the point about parking if two spaces per unit are required any project that is sizable is going to have a huge parking component and it's not it doesn't look great environmentally it's not great it's a lot of impervious surface so there are benefits besides being more feasible for a developer to actually do them you got to have people willing to live there sure and the town wants to get beyond the 10% required affordable housing we have to do something to try to build in incentives to get a bigger percentage so all of us can breathe a side relief for a couple decades or something at least a couple years at least a couple years at least one it's a reasonable goal um if it's done thoughtfully we can get there okay any more question questions is there anyone from the public like to ask a question this might be a good time any raised I guess you guys did outstanding job you certainly did thank you Richard thank you richardo for thanks for thanks for all the work you guys did this was really a gifted play too much well and you kept it hidden we never had the brown wine no we didn't thank you very helpful a lot of work and a lot of thought that went into that and skills that just Jo maybe AR available elsewhere look now now you guys have the hard job dyac see where your district is gonna be well let's take our out well that's what's next well we we're GNA talk about our meeting with the planning board on Monday we're going to be presenting the districts but not this yeah uh we may mention this but if you need us let us know okay you very much okay well we're doing well on time that's great so uh Monday we have the meeting with the planning board and uh I would like to put something on the table for you to think about because they i' met with Ron the chair and what I proposed to him was that um each member of the Tas make a two minute presentation maybe less about what they their experience on the task force and what their concerns and hopes are for this comes together so I want to know if people would be okay with that kind of a thing I worry that some of that would be repetitive unless we and I don't know how we would avoid that be that if it's repetitive we're all in unison speak what what with seven of us it's G to get pretty boring I don't think I'll be in unison I'm I'm I am not happy at 30 Acres I mean I understand the reasons for it but I'm not happy with the 30 Acres downtown so what um don't mean to cut you off for that's okay but what are you thinking of is it that kind of thing I'm not happy with a specific uh so I think I you know sort of I came to this task force meeting from the historic commission or wherever we came from and um this is a a challenge that uh we don't really want to face but we have to and we're doing the best we can with it and my particular concerns are that the 30 acres is too much or that we don't have enough control over future development or or quite the opposite that this is something the town needs and we're and we should um doing this anyway I don't who knows I I I would welcome it and I think I think everybody here would be positive I mean for example I could say I don't like the 30 Acres but I think that's the best 30 acres in town we could pick and so I'm uh if I were sitting on the planning board I think I would really wel welcome it because it would give me a sense that of the depth of thought that had gone into it and of the fact that there is some some complexity to the decisions that we've made sounds like we may have talked about this before the meeting which is not the case but it also gives the planning board a sense that they're really people with different points of view coming at it so in a sense we are representative of the town I I would offer a different view I think every one of us getting up it will get repetitive why can't we simply say this here are the consensus judgments that we've made and where we're coming from and have one person present it um I mean I think yes we have some differences but I think the common goals are the same I don't I haven't sensed anybody who's uh coming from a position other than we're trying to minimize the damage that we have to that we have to incur to comply with this law we have the we've been charged with the responsibility by the select board to come up with something that complies with 48 to our best ability not not you know we don't I don't think anybody likes it but our goal is simply to minimize the damage and I don't think it's too much more complicated we we can say we've had disagreements but on balance here here are the here are the things that we think make sense and and we can talk about you know why why we picked the sites that we picked and maybe some of the sites we didn't pick for the re and and maybe articulate the reasons I think that's much more on point I don't think the planning board cares whether I don't like one site because it doesn't matter these are the recommendations we've made we can say we've had some disagreement but on balance we're all on the same page and I just think you know going around it's like you know I don't know I'm too cynical nobody wants to hear you nobody wants hear your personal story okay i' be interested in your personal story on blurt it out Denny's got a point yeah I'm Denny's page although I I think Richard's point is important too you know so if there's a way we can list our concerns along with our consensus points I think there may also be some um we should talk a little bit about the evolution of our thoughts I certainly came in here assuming that that 40 Beach Street was the right place and we'd have retail on the bottom and two and a half stories of residential above and it wouldn't look there wouldn't be any more parking lot than there is now and that would be great and I wouldn't touch that with a 10-ft pole anymore right and I came in thinking we should be outside the downtown district and into the into the other residential districts with larger lots and had to come around to the thinking that that was not a good [Music] idea well my attitude has been to some extent and I hope we're successful at it we're trying to frustrate this law we're trying to keep from following the law in it and I don't think we're being you know dece deceitful about it or anything it's it is what it is but you know we're not doing really what the law explicitly says we're supposed to do we're doing what it explicitly says we're not doing what it was intended to do maybe not implicitly we're deliberately we're deliberately uh yeah steering away from the stated goal of the law sure right right so and that's okay I mean that's their their fault for creating and we're not alone no we're not alone no we're not I I mean I think that that is a part of doing everything we can to make it not very enticing to developers yeah maybe the answer is to have a general statement and then have a a chance for people a couple of people get up and say just as an example let me tell you why yeah I was in favor of this and where we've evolved so I I don't think I really don't think 1 two 3 four five six seven people get up and tell their tell why they did I think it will get repetitive and I think it'll get diluted the message yeah yeah yeah yeah and the most important thing is to focus on the conclusion right I mean yeah this is what we're recommending but my experience with the planning board is God knows what's going to happen at the end true that is true Mark has his hand raised oh yeah I mean so um as I've said all along I think we need to come in with a this is our proposal we've reached consensus um and this is why but I think it's useful for the board to understand that um either a where some people started and why they have um uh agreed to to where we are or um you know what their um concerns are with what we have even though they have voted to support it um but it's like Richard said it's the best 30 Acres that you could come up with so I mean I think it's important that the board hear those views but um but understands that there is a single recommendation from the board from this committee I I advocated a unified approach to the planning board myself but what I'm puzzled about and can't figure out is how we convey to them the some of the advantages that we can give them in thinking about our path because they're going to take this and go wherever they go and it would seem to me that anything we can give them to show how we evolved our decisions might help them in making their ultimate conclusion well are we kind of asking them a qu saying give us some guidance about where we should go next or are we just saying this is it this our recommendation don't you think that'll come up in a question don't you think there'll be a lot of questions about how we got there yeah and there's a bit of a whack the whacka all problem I think might be right I think we need to explain why we selected the districts we did yes yes yeah definitely I and I perceive in my experience the planning board views this is their decision sure we are very helpful and they may well just say thank you very much you're dismissed right we'll take it from here right okay is that a likely outcome uh who knows I don't know you do have another project that you're taking that's going to take some time well there are a whole lot of project yes that's true in terms of the ordinances the language she's talking about the cell signaling special perent process so I had a statement I could I could read you and see what you think that this makes sense so um in selecting potential districts we've relied on a set of guiding principles the most basic of these is our commitment to minimizing the impact of new zoning on the town the importance of small scale and variety of architectural style is the key to preserving Town character a major part of this goal of minimizing the number of new incremental oh a major is also minimizing a number of new incremental residential units we can do this by limiting new zoning districts to areas in town that are already densely settled with residential units and areas that have small Lots which can only support a small number of units it's hard to do this while meeting all the rules and while trying to address some of the basic Town needs um so I so the so we basically zeroed in on parts of town that would have the least amount of change I I would I would add that we also attempted to include some of the newer build multifam condominium developments sure which would be we feel a developer would be less likely to come in and redevelop because they're too valuable and they wouldn't have much financial gain so you might you can it doesn't need to be that wordy but um clean it you know the 21 P Street Saw Mill Circle Brook Street condos um 1012 Summer Street okay there's also an issue about the rate of change I mean it's basically saying we're putting we're suggesting these because they're already multif family units that being Summer Street being the prime example um but also so that you know where it's infill and change will happen more as it has happened here in the past this is we're not letting loose with one 20 acre right undeveloped property that would be could turn into single I have a little problem with the phrase impact because I'm not exactly sure what that means um I I know I think I know where you're getting at but my focus from the beginning was on retaining the character of the town and in particular avoiding demolition because we have no control ultimately over we have only limited control over whatever replaces it so and I think that has been a concern minimizing change is that a I would say minimizing demolition or or retaining uh retaining historical properties or retaining the historical character retaining existing buildings I mean to well I think we need to state that we purposely excluded buildings in the historic district District yeah as an example Yeah Yeah Chris you had something about basic Town needs or meeting Town needs can you just read that part again yeah um oh it's hard to do this while while meeting all the rules of the of the law and trying to address some basic Town needs so what are the basic Town needs so we need senior housing for example we're not addressing that but you can't we I think I would take that up deliberately if you think that new housing is Town needs we're deliberately avoiding it right right okay and if we think that we need to improve our Shi we're killing it right right all shr sorry State housing inventory State housing inventory subed sorry I'm sorry subsidized housing inventory yeah sub we because we're because we even if we can get permission to require that 20% of the units we're trying to Target three and four unit buildings oh so by killing it you mean we're we're we're not making it harder we're making it much much worse yes I agree more difficult I agree the that was the argument for a larger devel I mean there are arguments against the larger developments in LCD but the the one the big arguments are obviously yeah but 20% there would help us a lot but no that's a good point but the design that we're the place that we're most understand so we're deliberately not meeting Town needs change the only thing we could do is is allow an extra unit for approve three families and that would be the equivalent of 20% say that again if we allowed an additional unit on the three family multif family building that we're affable ah so you allowed it to be four family instead of three family yeah yeah that would be that would mean relaxing the that would mean pushing the dens first of all you're not going to get credit for that fourth unit on the density right so that means you're pushing the density up even above the 15 and getting no credit for it right get credit for well because they're not going to give you credit for density when you're not oh mean it won't count toward right right but would it doesn't mean anything get CR on the sh than what you expected we get credit on the Shi but we do get credit on the Shi yeah but well that's The Balancing Act I mean the idea of pushing what is already a 15 ring unit per acre up to 20 so that we can have an incentive sure sounds unappealing to me okay I think we're at point where we don't know what we all believe yet on the subject of density and and Shi and we we're always going to be at the point where we don't know exactly what's going to happen after we Zone it we take a risk with every District Z that's the case no matter what it's the case well we're not so much because what we see now what we see now is at least we have the experience of the last few decades to know what's going to happen in existing areas but this even in areas that are already dense even in the general District this zoning change is a big change it's going to be a big change I'm sorry well you haven't looked at the heat map if you say that there's plenty of places we've had three units by right in existing structures with a requisite parking for over 50 years not many this is this is I'm sorry that's a big exaggeration this is a discussion we have had at every single there's always a little footnote there so this uh brings me to the um is it rkg is that their name okay so at this thing that Sandy I endured all day Saturday it was helpful but Eric from rkg spoke during the MBTA uh training and he talked he showed uh these analyses that he um compiles one being propensity for change modeling I I are we is this part of our scope of work if it isn't part of our scope of work I think we want it to be part of our scope of work um because it's a very powerful tool and and it's you know me just the facts it's just just the facts it's you know he gets data from the assessors on the current um property values he uh goes to each of the um entities like DPW and police and fire and okay what's your trigger for change where you need a new fire Tru how many more res I mean it's and same with the school and and it's all very understandable um so I just bring that up and then also the um fiscal impact analysis and the economic feasibility analysis I don't remember what specifically is in our contract but if we could just review that before Monday none of it is no the no the economic feasibility is I believe I think that's what the I thought we were having rkg study whether moving subsidized from 10 to 20% was going to have a large impact on the viability no actually the study car was to see if it was economically feasible to require 20% well right okay yes stat so that's the only economic feasibility things you mentioned we should we'll go look at the contct because we had rkg in there what were they were supposed to do they were part of the original they're doing they're doing something so I should go back and look at the my recollection is they were doing nothing this is the prop they in the contract in the contract so I don't know yeah well we'll look and see yeah they submitted a separate proposal on February 8 and that appears to be what you were just saying which is um 20% the 20 20% I'm talking back at the beginning rkg was included in the contract and what what are they expected to do we should find out we do we and I think the planning board we included on the planning board would like a refresher on that well and I think this propensity of change thing would be great to get yes I would point out that we are also going to need uh Consulting work to get those design guidelines turned into something that are FAL design guidelines I think that's where's the money yes where is the money coming from I don't know budget budget closes tonight there's a 50k P budget doesn't have we exhausted the 50k P from the state and that's a grant amount and there the other thing we learned is that there's still grant money out there and perhaps we could um when the assistance of Mark has nothing else to do um apply for that are out there for helping the legal with drafting uh perhaps the design I mean there are other pots out there they having somebody other than us come up with estimates of the effect on um the town services that would be enormously impress for the vote vote well it it provides credibility and okay so we need to find another Grant because Sarah's not gonna take on anymore we're not looking at a small tax increase this next year we are looking at a big penalty if this thing doesn't pass right I know um can we are we going to look at this table because yeah it comes in with more units than what we need and I'm wondering how we're going to down adjust it before Monday and I also want to understand what the Assumption because she says on the first page about current zoning please note General zoning District was not modeled with its current restriction of four dwelling units so what was it modeled with I don't even know what that sentence means yeah I know I was very confused because let's let's back up for a second because I want to go back to the plane board presentation y so after we do this little our little stick I don't know what you call it descrip intro shet intro shet uh we'll then introduce Emily and she's going to talk about the law and how it works and how the model works and how these districts are why they were useful locations given our um our guidelines um and then I think that's about it for the planing board meeting at that point from our point of view planing board's got other things to do but don't we have to explain are we gonna explain this yes so she'll explain she's gonna have MS of and these numbers are too high so that's what I want to talk about I just wanted to get there so um I think the only number that's really too high is the is that they modeled both sites of the storage facility y we don't need them we don't and it's a bad look I understand to have 199 units there what were the sizes of the two Parcels one was six acres and the other was four I three I think because we only need 3.16 based on all these other numbers but we have to at least five right it's a six acre piece but we can limit the number well we can we can fiddle around with a lot coverages and things I guess to get get it down a little bit it's still going to be 100 what well the the the first six come in at oh no they're 284 addition if you go all the way over to storage it comes in a number of potential units allowed is 452 so that's 103 unit 651 no if you add cross number of potential units right is 452 so what we need to comply is 103 if you're you know just taking wait I'm lost I'm sorry okay there's a I I did I just printed this out the third line on the table she's looking at so you're totaling up all those numbers I'm totaling up 691 694 oh got it okay so so just so you know that I think what they're doing there is not the current zoning is the proposed NBTA zoning it's the capacity number yeah it's the capacity whatever assum capacity number but we don't know what assumptions are being used so it shouldn't say by write under current Zone No it should not right what she means is that she's using the same setbacks and the same uh coverage 4070 yes and she has not height and she has not used the base unit additional unit zoning which can be used to fine-tune these numbers and and she said that so these numbers can be tuned within and around these numbers current Z there are no units allowed at the storage facility so that should be zero that's why I realize what was happening here well yes I I I think that this table needs to be adjusted with different estimated units so it comes to the 555 capacity and then can do the difference between existing and the capacity I think that's important yeah and I think that we have to kind of say okay are we going to allow 100 units in the LCD I mean I think we need to just adjust this table yeah I agree absolutely the qu I have a question about how the model works because what I noticed from your runs early on Richard is that when you set a limit of three units or four units when you set a cap it just blew the whole thing out of water we were in trouble but if there for example I wonder if what she did was to take let's say a 10,000 square foot lot and say okay 6,000 is the minimum and you can have a a three unit building there and then you add 2, 2,000 and each 2,000 means you add two more units well I asked her that question and she said she didn't use that the the parameters in the model are a a base lot size which is the spa there's a there's a minimum lot size then there's a base lot size which is the first unit and then there's another lot size for successive units so you for example take a 2500 for the first unit and then say it's going to be 2,000 square feet for every additional unit and that applies to all the parcels you can't get away with putting a partial limit on any of these districts because you you lose the advantage of the larger developments and your averages get thrown out the window so you you have to tune it with that she said at the last meeting that she did not do anything other than use the coverage and uh setback requirements I I understand how what you just said would work with a 10,000 square foot lot well with a 10,000 is theas if you said 2500 for the first unit and 2,000 for the successive units you would get four units you'd get or you get three units you wouldn't get four because you'd get three * 2,000 is 6,000 then 8500 and you wouldn't be able to put in the fourth unit because you said on the other hand if you change that to be 2,000 for the base and 2,000 for the addition un right and you can you can see that change that tuning is going to be very important to the decisions because it flips uh it flips the small parcels and the big parcels and evens them out or not based on that I think we need to encourage the planning board to let us go forward I don't this should continue the tuning continue the tuning absolutely yeah um I I this is hard work not that the planning board doesn't work hard it's that the planning board has so much work to do that expecting them to pick up this level of knowledge and do the tuning um so is is the expectation that we present this table and then we say but the intention is is to fine tuna to reduce the total number of capacity units to get to the 555 we could yeah we could certainly say that yes and maybe that's the way maybe that's the strategy although I'd rather have her correct the definitely it needs to be corrected it's confusing she definitely ask me to correct it but I would urges to um encourage them to allow us to F tune it because otherwise we're going to be getting whatever innocent Associates decides to do on their last round and Y You know despite all best efforts that may not be exactly what we we want we don't want a recommendation presented to the planning board that we haven't seen right as our recommendation no that's right that's right and this is all we've seen so it seems like you have to present this and then say well it's first pass yeah intention after months of to redu that's a good point even if this is even if this winds up being the exact geography the distribution of units is very much a draft right yes that's a great way to put it we may lead us to Tinker the boundaries of the of the district a bit right y yeah right you could decrease if you if you got to have five acres out of town you can decrease the ones in town and that's a very good point we get if we get forced into a decision with LCD we would definitely want to make some changes elsewhere I think yeah yeah could she just make a change so that right in the storage properties column rather than using the two unit two Parcels just just use the six just use the 6.8 or whatever that we can be and I I I would be happy making that change and and having it presented without my seeing it again well it's going to be better no matter what you do and I mean some of the language things we spoke about get current zoning out of there yeah yeah because it's not can we have no I'd like to see I'd like to see a row that shows what it would be in oh it I think that's an interesting number also it's a low number I don't think well isn't that oh no existing units so potent you would like to see potential units undering not allowed by right she did that calculation yeah so you like another she did that calculation a while I don't don't know if she included all these Parcels but she did the first four number of weeks ago I I'll get the in touch with her and we'll talk about that okay so Ann what you're wanting the storage proper prb is just the 6.8 acre one I agree with that I by the way um where it says minimum lot size and then go over to the storage properties minimum lot size is 217,000 squ feet I mean yeah it is no that's crazy that's the point that's two lots in there it's the minimum lot size is and the LCD is 5 Acres right so that's what should be there is that is 2000 is that 5 Acres yeah close to it okay um so is is this accurate that we actually under the current zoning um these all add up to 452 units no that's under the capacity that's under the capacity the existing units are right here on this line number of existing units are here at 168 isal to okay it's probably not important but I think part of Valentine the summer is not in fact in G correct I think it's a we learned that in our zoning 101 it probably doesn't make any difference but she yes it does because the rules are different yeah yeah that's a good catch we we can change the rul the overlay can change the rules right yes but yes but it's good to know what the underlying I don't understand why it makes any difference well she says here Valentine to summer is is underlying Z underlying zoning District G oh I see and it's a mixture of G and a a and what C Street and C Street C Street is a the side between summer and happen I believe so yeah that pokes out okay yeah okay and I think it's important to be accurate yes because every time we're not accurate we get accused of not knowing what we're talking about so it's summer but summer is it no it isn't it goes out turns into SE or something can summer to have better words with it yeah we can and say Brook Street to Brook whatever that gas Lincoln yeah even Beyond Lincoln no yeah the Lincoln address oh no it's the summer address yeah the last yeah it's the Past St FP Street to Lincoln is just kind of makes it summer tun means nothing Lincoln is that what you should call it's fine to Lincoln I think it's mean Vine I think it's Brook no no wait oh God is it Allan no it's Allen I'm sorry Allen it's Allen and in the case of Allen it's just the 66 summer you got the little the old old Cricket building right yes exactly you know I think it's G District on the north side of Summer Street it is and it's uh but we have a few properties on the other side of the street yeah is it g all the way DNA again past all the way out yeah all the way to Pleasant got to look at our Maps oh wait or Lincoln all the way out to link I got the map right here map right here so small I can't read it okay so what are we gonna call this Allen to Lincoln no it's it is alen De no it is no no it goes all the way oh no it's alen to Lincoln I'm sorry Summer Street Allen to to Lincoln is what I station is outside the G dist remember walking around and pouring rain yeah you hold yeah yeah the gas station does not have G District No it's an no the gas station isn't a yeah yeah a starts on the so it's again G G and a GNA a yeah most of what's in town does not comply with Sony not to mention the part of sum street that were're on the other side that's all that's and then we we we go out of the district on P we're not in G on right isn't it also D D1 there's some D1 and some D yeah there's some D1 in there yeah I don't know how far down I would just take that line out good idea yeah I mean probably the main thing about all of this is that it's 40% coverage yeah agree let's take and the fact that this says D2 that's inaccurate no it is D2 overlay but there's underlying zoning districts under the D2 the D2 is only the first 100 feet from the street that CH no it didn't oh okay it doesn't matter we just take it out okay yeah just take out the line yeah it's a good solution um and and we can leave the minimum lot size at 6,000 because that's what the overlay is going to be and we don't have to put in the some of it 6,000 and some of it's single one acre some of it's right right but but you might want to put 40% coverage that is there the sheet says 40% by structure very good yes yeah she might want to say a lot coverage by structure just yeah is is it by structure yes okay because they're not looking at total coverage right right right they're only doing the Cs for the structure and it doesn't matter to them whether the parking is permeable or impermeable so okay okay great um and then I would because I do think there are some choices about downtown versus The Limited commercial District so it would be extremely useful we were talking about a total column where I'd put that total column would be between the summer Allen to Lincoln and storage properties two two totals a subtotal and then a total total yes correct oh good idea yeah because then downtown you can see down total you can see what you're doing right yeah and if they see only six ACR and The Limited commercial maybe they want more and I don't know that that's good okay and this doesn't this this chart does not show oh the oh the density modeled under current zoning is that the the size is that the acreage no no acreage is shown here that's yes the acreage is the second line down Acres 4 Acres 8.8 it's right under proposed District I I couldn't find I I I basically went and looked and found the Anchorage on something else but it's right there we decided we were going to change that text density model under current zoning yes yeah I have what are we going to say density modeled under MBTA MBTA capacity is what I'd say yeah well it's MTA density in this case because that's the density oh well but then the one above that you need to say yeah MBTA zoning capacity yeah because if we can't understand this nobody else will understand either are we going to need a meeting before the planning board meeting there's no we can't do it it's too late well I mean we can meet Monday morning we we can't post we can't oh oh well I mean doesn't this I i' I've been away so but isn't this what you it's a pretty what we kind of thought we were going to do yeah but we've taken out a line here we' put in two columns there um we've reduced the number of acres in in one column well as a courtesy I'll have Gail send out the revise things and as far as the areas that you're that we are re suggesting proposing resoning those are consistent with what you in these meetings told them got these Maps yeah they a little whip on our really they barely survive the walk right my point is she's not coming up with the proposal that we haven't seen is that all all I'm worried about is the table yeah and what it looks like what it looks like what it looks what it contains there there is if it gives you any comfort there is a uh Communications subcommittee meeting that's been announced with an agenda and all of that for Monday morning correct yes so we could look at it for it did it get posted ins okay so we can take a look at how it comes out if you would trust us with that what time do that need 10 10 you might not have it at 10 well we'll see we can ask you don't ask you don't get we may not have the chart from Emily rev I find it hard to believe we would I mean it's not huge changes the totals it's we're not going to be giving it to them um I have a question I me somebody's looking at Newport Park somebody in the planning board may not know exactly what dimensions we're talking about what geographical area so I think it's important these are what we need right I think that that that should be part and for AG absolutely oh it's a useless chart without the individual Maps y for each district okay s you something else I have a question about because looking at this chart I thought well okay in terms of Acres um in terms of number of units we're okay what I don't understand in terms of how the model works is she's got that line of density modeled for MBTA zoning and I don't know if overall in the total grand total column the density we would achieve the density that's required oh I think she's made that check so you I don't know but it's not clear put that in total column total column great okay the total and subtotal so we'll know how much of the density downtown ising up yeah it won't be a total really it will be the average density across all the parcels downtown yeah yeah that's fine okay anything else okay one one more question yes how many acres in total do we have to provide 37 37 and this is I I just added up the acres here including the 10.2 and it's 38.5 right well well we're talking about reducing the size of the storage I don't know no I got 23.2 I got Pine Street I just took the Acres off the top here yep yep I came up with 33.84m we only needed about four in the LCD right I got those numbers also Sarah so so where are these where are these numbers at variance with your numbers what I'm I don't know this is this is when you add that across you go the Pine Street subdistricts you get 23.2 and then these two together 10.6 I'm just and then it's 33.8 for the downtown I took them off of well these these are her these are the numbers that she took off their drawings and oh yes me too as we know polish she they minimized the acreage we could squeeze quite likely another acre out of here if we went to midpoint streets they don't like that idea well reduces our density it does puts a little pressure on the density but not so much I mean it's not that much but it gets a little more well you can tune the LCD to do whatever yeah but you still need five ACR in the LCD so why try to get another acre out of downtown would just depend on whether we were I'm just pointing out that if we if we were just a tiny bit shy in the LCD with one of those one one of those selections we could make up for it I don't know if that's the case pretty easily because wasn't what are the two sizes of the of the Lots there six and 6.8 and 2 so did we decide 6.8 was enough 6. she's going to change that to 6.8 slightly more than 6.8 and 2.4 are the make sense wow I'd like to move move we adjourn well oh no we're not done with the of course you would you're not done you're not on vacations enough so I would like to open this up for public comments if there are any are we gonna approve minutes or uh do I have a motion to approve two sets of minutes everybody got I read them yeah just okay moved and seconded all in favor approve move we adjourn second everyone so Hotel