##VIDEO ID:xiCtNpx1jfk## 6:34 I so this is a meeting of the nbk zoning fast force it is August 22nd 6:35 call call S here here and sah here and Richard here and an elsewhere but present any others who elsewhere there present um I talked to Gar and he said he probably wouldn't make it okay he's in an even better part of main a deserted island somewhere okay um so I just got an email from Gail saying that she's not going to be here to take minutes I guess she can watch the recording yes or we should take notes anyway just so it's a good thing to do uh okay the first item on the agenda is an update on NBTA zoning proposal the state review and revised language so um we' got an acknowledgment from the state a couple weeks ago that they have um reviewed our application for completeness and deter that it is complete that was it that was it and as opposed and they didn't say anything else so it doesn't you don't know whether it's the first time they picked it up they review it as complete they put it in the pile with all the other complete ones or if now that they picked it up and it's complete they actually start the review which means maybe we get a decision about it fairly soon um you know like early first week of September so we don't really know the answer to that I guess it will be end of September the 90 days but at least they have looked at you know so a bit of quy good news yes okay uh so she'll go to the revised language that you and Emily have everyone I I made some extra copies of people didn't print one out Redline version I'm all I'm all set Mar but it would be helpful to have you take us through the changes yes oh yes and the other thing I did is I I also printed out just so because a lot of the changes we made are because of the the uh site plan review performance standards which are 10 pages long and so we found a lot of things that are in here so any development any proposal for a multif family has to go through site plan review so many of the things are redundant to what's already being required so if anyone wants yes copies of that to refer to I have hopefully enough many and I can share good for you dream I mean I did notice um a couple of things Mark that we had discussed at a prior meeting that didn't get into this version okay okay so we should just go through so um so the first uh several Pages you'll notice there's a few little formatting uh changes a couple words here and there we corrected on the third page the subdistrict name street so can we discuss the district names because we have different versions of them and I think we need to settle on Final okay I think the the maps and the what's here is what match up now so these are these are the names that we have throughout this as well as throughout the maps that we submitted could you give me just a little more where you are uh line 32 it's on page three have line numbers 3132 oh just a heading um 9.4.2 um the last section okay District okay so one of them I think is wrong is the Beach Street subdistrict which I think should be called The Summer Street subdistrict well the reason why we we didn't use Summer Street we didn't use Summer Street is because Allen to Lincoln is also a long summer so eliminate any confusion we use Beach Street because you do have two properties right on Beach Street which is the gas station in the little uh building right next to it so that's why we called it the Beach Street that's confusing to people though it's really Beach to Summer it's beach in summer but it's just a small how about Central summer no Central it doesn't go toal there's no Central Street no I mean it's not a union either right or lower summer lower summer might be name but ah yeah the summer good yeah see so is this language in I'm a little confused as to what the state has state has this without any of the red line Chang so we had said back in June when we submitted this that Emily and I would sit down and try and eliminate the redundancies because we didn't really have a ton of time to so so so I mean it's not the end of the world one way together do anyone feel strongly that it should be lower summer or Beach well what it goes It goes It goes to spyrock Hill Road right so it's really Beach Street to Spyro well the other districts do not include all the streets that are part of the district I mean it's not inconsistent we did that we'd have pine to Morse and I think we're talking about the name of the subdistrict it says be Street subdistrict uh and I think the question is should that say lower summer subdistrict District well part of it is Beach Street right part of it is Beach and my point is that when you look at the other names they are also not inclusive of all the streets yeah so it's fine to say Beach Street okay I think and we that's how we it's also how we've been talking about it all along too so there's a certain consistency so people don't get confused about oh they changed it they'll be confused anyway refer them to the map there you go say I thought we were exp spting Beach Street okay fine everything is fine so the names are fine we just have to get this make it consistent so um the next page three is just um another formatting change four so I have two changes on page four line 111 um the current height for one and a half story accessory structure is 25 ft and I thought we were going to keep it consistent okay s structure should not exceed 25 ft yeah okay and then the other is online4 115 um I believe we had agreed to exclude the last CL laws that says and do not constitute more than 25% of the ground floor area of the building that's the spires we don't have that in our current bylaw and I think 25% is overly [Music] generous so beginning on the and you get rid of the and and do not constitute more than 25% of living purposes period yeah is everybody okay with these dimensional standards the way we well I they gave me pause um I did look at them um but my concern is if we started tweaking them we were going to adversely impact the results of the compliance model yeah um you know so I because it's it's not that simple but and going back a little bit in the LCD the Beaver Dam District we're not going to allow any mixes just either it's going to be M yeah or the underlying District why did we decide that they didn't know that we decided it well that's what it says you are allowing mix you're allowing accessory uses we're allowing mixed uses in the G when the overlay district is on the General District and we've got accessory uses which are like the swimming pools and the amenities yeah and what the reason was we didn't want to compete with downtown well I think the underlying yeah well usually the underlying district is not the General District businesses it's the so it's a different kind of uses that are allowed may not always be necessarily I could see you'd want something like a 7-Eleven or something like that up there you got 100 there's that not it's not going to be that tense or if it was artist studio space for example that be Studios would be a commercial use a private Studio privacy yeah or an office an attorney's office or somebody who works from home no it includes customary home occupations it does maybe May that would take care of an artist but yeah we go to mixed use on that area does not that change the density well wait what does the LCD that does the underlying zoning allow commercial uses yes yes it does well that was the reason we said it was a I mean but it's different uh the general dist so um but it it allows business us the both and the doctor's office is not allowed believe it or not in the LCD but includes customary home occupation which would cover an artist studio would cover or software development somebody who lives there what they do Al General retail uses are not permitted in the LC oh that's interesting except for marijuana shops you can't sell anything else but marijuana right um that's one of the differ uh personal and general service establishment perhaps that might be a hair salon would not be permitted in the LCD but is permitted in the General District okay so maybe we're my recollection is that if we were to put multiuse into our NBTA zoning we' completely changed the density that's achieved it's the difference between making something allowed and having it be required required so we're not talking about multi-use required which just is what's Allowed no I understand that that doesn't impact anything um it's just like you can have seen your housing allowed but it's not it wouldn't necessarily impact the density depending upon what you want to do provided you can make it all fit within the lot coverage and the um height reir it's probably just my fault in memory I'm I'm trying to remember back to the original discussions we had if you'll recall they initially specifically disallowed M views right requ requiring that's no they originally specifically disallowed it period Then they added in something correct uh which allowed it but there was some it wasn't that simple as you just allow it and everything else is the same we're not we're not defining that as part of our um multiple um it's not in our definition it's just an allowed use so you're saying doesn't count doesn't count because it's not part of the it's not part of the zone of the MBT overlay correct it it's just that that's my understanding it's not part of the it's an allowed use in the NBTA overlay if it's allowed in the underlying but it's it's not requiring multi-use like on the first floor right I understand um we have lots of things like you're allowed to have senior housing housing for seniors which isn't allowed in the MBTA overlay but we can allow it as a perm sure no all right so as long as it's not in the MBTA definition got it got thank you okay let's move on I have something on 101 we already went past that uh it says that um we're only allowing three units three units per building in those districts and what I'm wondering is does that if somebody was allowed to have four units when they had a big enough lot they could have four units they have to build a separate building yes they would have to do a separate so so there be a separate building with one unit in it or two and two two I think the reason was we didn't want big big structures yeah I was trying to scale down the massing of the building to something more that matches most of what the town is even with and actually there are some building there are some Lots in the island of Lincoln that are I think five and eight yeah yeah there are so that would for example 76 somewhere would be ineligible which could be problematic um it's an existing building so well maybe we should say existing building yeah yeah no I think you write it in this building Cap building unit cap thing that you could say no more than three units may be constructed within a single building so unless you're staying add a sentence saying existing buildings are Exempted are exempt from this three three unit cap requirement yep I'm I'm confused and I I need some help um this is the overlay District language we're looking at isn't it yes this is the overlay District so what does this have to do with what's already there because we if you if 76 Summer Street is in the overlay District it's 9,000 square feet Yes but the overlay district is something that you can do in addition to the other Overland underlying zoning no they can't do they can't do more than three in the underlying zoning and we want to be able to take a big building like that and have use the the density in the um model would I see I see what you're getting 76 summer is which it's the old gas station with a round sign on it next to the school Memorial School on the left side of Summer gas station it's used as a commerci I I understand right so if that building were to be converted in under the language of the overlay District um they would have to cut out a slice from the middle of a building in order to conform yes doesn't or knock it down and start from scratch right which which wouldn't be a bad thing well but with the exemption the building could stand and they could have four units right which is fine 10 units they can do all sorts of things though they they I mean I was only half joking about the slice you could cut a slice make a veranda and conform I would be a little bit worried about turning the whole principle of restricting massing on the existence of one building that we're trying to all the buildings there lots of buildings there's lots of buildings kind of scattered about it might have like 4,000 square fet and be able to have four units in an existing structure maybe not want builds well two half a dozen I don't know Richard let's not argue of that well I understand but it is a question of of it is Germain because if if we just want to say existing building is that what you're getting at just say ex yes fine I'm sorry go ahead okay so we don't get new big ones go something on line 128 actually the there's a duplication of W Street Parking requirements both here and in the standards section and what I wonder is whether it allows the plane board to reduce parking by up to no more than 20% but if there were senior housing proposed you'd have a sea of empty parking spaces so I wonder if we should allow for more bu ility responsibility for senior housing not for anything else you think we could get away with building in language that would be specific to senior housing yeah I think so if it's just applies to par be a little worried about that remember people can build senior housing by choice we can't require it yeah we're not requiring it somebody wanted to do see you're essentially providing incentive well yes yeah I guess we are but it's still up to the planning board to Grant the waiver yeah that's part of the plan R I would be concerned if it were a general wa where is the section suggestion suggestion 94 but it doesn't that's not doesn't that doesn't cover the the waiver where's the waiver language standards General devel the 9.4.3 general development standards 225 parking it is 22 thank you okay so one of the things I wonder is whether that's redundant to 9.4.6 anyway what's your experience in the number of spaces in senior housing uh a third of a space per unit sometimes a half I'm just looking at the the planning board so if you had three units you have you could be it could be as low as one space for unit is that what you're saying yes okay really one space per unit or one space for three three for seniors one or one for two one for two one for three how many spaces are there at newp Park maybe it might be one for one may we to go count cars and count spaces one night well I I I think that you do have visitors and um Newport Park is they're not a lot of empty spaces seems really I know when we went to do a field visit there it was not easy to find legal parking we had to park along the driveway say one seems awfully low I think that's why they don't really want people parking there to go walk in the trail yeah yeah yeah and under the senior we say one unit one car per unit somewhere in here we don't say anything about yes we do do yes I read it write down the line number well no because I agreed with it no may you one possible uh solution is to increase the percentage that the planning Bo can reduce the parking with want that's s of a blanket waiver but maybe we could say it could could be further waivers could be granted for senior housing something like that just F also so how you define senior housing that's good question yeah wife it in the definitions maybe a worry somebody who's 65 years old is eligible and drives a Corvette and thinks he's 12 he know some and then then has the car around the grandchildren right right she about the old days I would where I would just take out the percentage which paragraph We on again uh it is 225 which is okay 225 the other thing remember is is Newport Park is income I believe isn't it income restricted so very low income the ability for people who aren't income restricted who are in a senior housing uh complex that's built for just market rate seniors those people might have two cars a fun car and a nonf fun car still might own a pickup truck and yeah well I guess so I think that's why it should be up to the plane board to decide whether this is a well affordable senior complex where you're not going to have a lot of parking this well so as the Lang let me be sure I understand as the language stands now the all other Chad districts there's 1.5 spaces per residential unit and it could get as low as 1 Point what two if you can reduce it by up to 20% I I'm sorry I I have a problem with this whole paragraph because it says the requirements of section 6.1 off street parking shall apply that's in the current bylaw correct yes yes okay but yet um in the off street parking in 9.4.6 we have two spaces on Beaver Dam Road per unit and that's not in 6.1 that's so I think this whole sect that b should be stricken but or should say the parking requirements of 9.4.6 right I think you just say requirements of section 6.1 off street parking shall not apply because it's in 9.4.6 or or if you want to get the 20% reduction and just put it up in 9.4 well there's that too yeah but I mean that would be tidier yeah but this is this is is wrong this has to come out because we're not using section 6.1 uh but then but the 20% idea can get included some because 6.1 is one and a half per unit round it up yeah so if it were to come out Sarah what what then applies how do you get yeah I think you would say the requirements of section 6.1 off street parking do not apply um except section 9.4.6 thing is the 6.1 has dimensional requirements there's planting requirements setbacks all these other well then say standards how about the parking standard you can say 6.1 off Street parking shall apply with the exception of the number of spaces per dwelling unit could you repeat that St the requirements a six section 6.1 off street parking shall apply with the exception of the number of spaces per dwelling unit isn't the number of spaces per dwelling unit the whole point well they're all spelled out at 9 that's a 9.4 six and 6.1 has different requirements per dwelling unit that's the current bylaw right so so so why do we need it at all because of the standards the size of the lot so the the only real difference is bdam we required two spaces per unit instead of 1.5 no no I understand why we need 9.4.6 I got that yeah I don't understand why we need we need 6.1 to say what size the parking spaces need to be and whether there's screening things but should all that be under 9.4.6 anyway including reference to the dimensional standards unless you just go back to eliminate two spaces although I advocated under 9.4.6 can't you just put in everything about parking all all other um all Street par parking um restri are are subject to section 6.1 I can say with the exception of table 6.1 because then table okay 9. 4.6.1 two pages earlier has the um as the requirements for the Y yeah that's that's just with the exception of table 6.1 shall apply and maybe singy that 20% is enough to reduce I I think you'll have a political problem if you've got an opportunity to reduce the number of parking spaces significantly yeah I I don't I don't like it because I don't I don't like the uncertainty of it like I mean you know you can always make the argument that things should be left to the planning board we could have no Zing at all everything could be people aren't going to be very happy about that let me be including the state because it is discretionary yeah no we're taking that out out oh I thought we were keeping no taking it out out not giving any description I thought okay why would you want to give them discretion what why would you not want to give them that that amount of discretion because it's it's I mean if the goal is to reduce on on a Case by casee basis that's not the way we do parking in Manchester and what we just talking about senior housing no we're talking about any any in the multi-use district so so Sarah how about 20% reduction for senior housing at the discretion of the plan that's okay with me I don't have a problem I think that's fine because it's it's quite narrowly defined so hopefully that's only a small reduction yeah so to only senior housing I'm and senior housing is well defined senior I don't know okay so so can we can we take Section 9.4.3 to to be completely out and move all of its content to 9.6 9.4.6 no no you mean so there's only one place where you talk about parking oh you're just taking out 2B you're just saying about 2B right no I I think you can't because of the way this is structured the way this is structured is it's saying it's all of these items are referring to the existing bylaw and so it doesn't make sense to move one piece out and leave the others in okay can we move so no we can't move the the special stuff into here because this is just the stuff that's not so we have to have it in two places it's going to be in two places I guess as long as they're consistent that's okay they won't be after 10 minutes but just to be sure I understand so what we're going to do is we're going to leave to be there saying the requirements of 6.1 except for the table in 6.1 except for table 6.1 right apply apply with the with the exception uh with the planning board 20% for senior housing and I think I've been told this before but can you remind me what source of our definition for senior housing is uh senior housing is it's age restricted to 55 and old and that is defined it is not in it'll be needed to be added actually in the no it's not it's not being added it's not because it's in the current okay thank you so actually you know if you um the third red line down where where are you at that section 4. 94.8 okay B yeah third line down we did kind of changed that so with the following exception that residential parking requirements of table 6.1 are superseded by section 9.6 so okay we had already made that editing kind of change okay didn't but so you could just leave it yes so we already made that change differently um but I will add that the planning board May reduce AR requirements by no more than 20% for a senior housing and for senior housing only yeah where are we I didn't I think we kind of left off in uh the 9.4.6 but okay so I want to go on to 9.4.6 yeah and the design review committee so the one thing I think might be a problem is if one of the members of the designers you committee is an architect designing a project within a CH and I think there should be something to say that that would be a conflict of interest exactly I don't think you don't need that in the bylaw well could beable to appoint somebody in their stad in that case it's covered by the state I see why you have one member of the planning board in this design Review Committee myself that was a request from the planning board they have no qualified m I never liked the idea but that was that was from the planning board well it's kind of like here you you have a member of yeah but design review is is a com back yeah you know yeah the planning board's going to get to re it's almost a conflict for somebody to be on the planning board to serve on the design Review Committee that's making a recommendation to the planning board that planning board member should recuse themselves from the final decision isn't isn't the conflict of interest here clearly covered by the state conflict of interest law we all have not sure it would be because there advisor to the BL all yes I just if you take this committee as an example we would all disqualify not not everyone but the general no members would disqualify themselves and and Sarah no because not coming before the zba okay but it is coming before the planning board it is coming before the select board y yeah so that that is perfectly okay there's no reason why somebody can't advocate for a change that has been prepared by a by a task force or or some other board the or the design review board otherwise it would be down to Jenny and me which would you do fine so what are we going to do about this potential conflict of interests so we could say that if a member is disqualified we can add a line say if a member is disqualified due to a conflict of interest the planning board May appoint a replacement for that particular applicant that's fine y and then my final one is about sight lighting 1305 why we're adding all this when it's already in the performance standards I'm sorry section 9.49 number I see e 305 my number 305 30 right so we're going past all the rest well this I just wonder why this is happening well I think it's important well it already end the perance standards all but that's discretionary so I'm on on a campaign of getting rid of all of these bright lights that reflect off the harbor oh I agree I'm sure you were right DPW did it for the sewer treatment plan well need Shades oh don't leave there duplication yeah I think what we did is we had moved that sentence as well as um from several Pages down from 470 to 305 because we felt it should apply both to all projects Not Just Beaver Dam project ah there you but we eliminated looks like we eliminated building lighting because that was clearly performance standards but sight lighting is a two um but I think maybe but what there wasn't was the I believe it's the height and lighting pedestrian path might have been a little bit different I mean under the St plan review it does say lighting shall comply with International dark sky standards but the height here of 12 to 17 that's a pretty specific that's not covered why do you need that why well it changes changes the character of the space for sure having high lights so what do the general development The General devel maybe that was supposed to be all eliminated but we have under height of fixtures we have wallmounted fixtures attached to a building for areal lighting shall be mounted no higher than 12T above grade right and then for pole mounted exterior light fixture shall be mounted no higher than 14 fet above grade for pedestrian walkway lighting and 20 ft above grade for parking lot so it's a little different but you're only talking two feet so and three feet for par Lots it seems a little redundant I think we we might have wanted to take that completely out it's in green take out the height of just the height no we're taking out e sight lighting because it's already covered it's in the um General General a whole page 6.3.4 of the general standards has outdoor light okay who is the international dark sky blah blah it's page and a half okay of rules yeah I say take it out okay anyone else have any changes i''d like to make y okay I consider yourselves done with this Mark will you make those changes and I make those changes except the rest of the red line changes and um and then what we'll do is at some point in September for a um decision from the state and put together a final set of edits okay plus whatever so we'll set maybe what we'll do is we'll send this around to both boards board um with the final clean version so everyone can see everyone did receive copy of this Redline version so um we'll send that around so that when can we put it up on the website sure the NBTA only so the public can see what the was discussed you suppose that when they're reviewing the final version of our language did they have any memory of the review that they made of the previous version do we Supply them with what we changed or do they start from scratch and reexamine the new oh meeting if it's approved the town meeting I believe they probably go through it all again they don't trust us yes well no I understand that they would go through it all again I'm just I'm sure they would reference the first their pre-approval one youd think that have to yeah or what's the sense of doing pre-approval right exactly and these changes we're talking about are cosmetic they seem to me I can't see anything there that could make why wouldn't you just send them a red line copy that's my that's not part of the process yeah I can't people no okay all right let's move on to the status of the EFA affordability yes I have not received any feedback or comments from them on the affordability study or the propensity of the change study which has been funded by um um yeah Mass Housing Partnership has given us a grant to fund the propensity for change so I haven't heard anything from rkg on either study how do we get can we get I will call them tomorrow yeah be nice to no we're not we're not happy yes I so that's what was the name of the first one uh economic feasibility analysis big customers for affordability for AFF yeah EFA affordability for the 20% because this will be a lot more pal oh my gosh you tell us about rkg the fiscal impact study are the propensity for development no no the fiscal is what about the so we asked rkg to do that also no no I thought we asked the we asked the finance committee for RG and they said they could have it done but it would be November 1st oh yes it would be later and it'd be a lot more money and so we'd like to ask the B to do the analysis for please so I prepared a letter from Sarah Kon the chair of the plan board board authorize that last okay we're meeting um September 4th Finance committe okay get yeah so that's a significant project um We the finance committee had done a financial feasibility study on the SLV 40b project working off of because they had I think forer had done the review and then um rkg had done the peer review um now forer has done the review no forer hasn't forer did a review for for CST which the finance committee then responded to and did their own but that was easier because it didn't include the schools but we included the schools in the 40b so the 40b study should translate pretty directly to the LCD well I I have to see um what the the propensity for de the the data points in the Pro propensity for development will be so we know what to accumulate what to assemble in order to respond that's an interesting point because that um to me at least that conflates two two things when I think about the economic impact I think on the one hand I'd like to know what is the impact at full development and that's got nothing to do with provin City for development I don't really have a lot of confidence in the propen city for development study I mean I know it's important we want to do it but nobody knows um but you know what is what is the impact of full development if I were as a voter that's what I want to know what's what's the worst well I think that the finance committee based on that propensity for development will do a timeline off of that Baseline for development which we eventually get to full buildup or or or a three scenario you know I just don't know how detailed it's going to be understand I just encourage you to go development but you don't want to you want to be realistic about things well we always want to be realistic about things but it's very hard to be realistic about things when you can't predict right but but people could have done an economic feasibility study when the zoning was changed I'm million years ago who allow three units by right in the General District MH and you probably can count them on two hands or four hands how many units there have been versus how many there could have been so I think you need to be realistic about it I don't think you know what realistic is well I think I think we're GNA have to do I I mean I don't think we know what realistic I mean I think you can do a typical scenario set of three scenarios business you do that sort of thing all the time all the time right we do have to show full build as long as full build out that's all I'm saying I I agree it's great to predict here's our prediction this is what it'll probably be this is what it could be because the other thing you do in business all the time is you have Rosie and you have grim and you have what you in between and you always want to know so we know the full buildout is 345 right exactly right okay that's all I'm saying so that we can do what you're going to I would think end up with a a chart basically showing if you have these number of units developed over time what it looks like all the way up to what the max is I don't think that that I don't think that's too difficult to formulate no I'm I'm going to be fascinated to read the propensity for develop what you're going to get is a wild ass guess anybody who's really good at propensity for development should be a billionaire real estate yeah so the the other part of it is trying to figure out real estate taxes because I I suppose on the one hand is possible it could be all Studio units built with a minimum value and it could all be three bedroom un yeah that's interesting so is data available but real estate values are done per square footage that's right and you're assuming a thousand per unit th000 square feet per unit so you know you if you got a 2,000 foot house on the lot and it goes to 3,000 sare foot you know onethird more taxes well I think that'd be reasonable because that's what the model predicts but I think we should probably figure out whether that's reasonable leave it up to the finom to do it and you'll be having to talk to the tax assessor yeah I talk to the tax assessing the CS2 yeah yeah we just have to figure out what information need and we have to do it before the study is done because by the time the stud's done we're not going to have enough time yeah you have to do so this this is pretty important input to voters at time oh my go it's got to be realistic and probably pretty important some weeks in advance of to meeting sure absolutely to the extent which is an interesting point for terms of the timeline well that's why we need a a commitment on when the propensity for development is going to be completed well yes I get it back to my original question which is I don't I I can see why you want that in your final analysis but it really doesn't to me have much to do with the basic computations because you're going to have you know X units yunits and Z units and the propensity for development what's it going to tell you the timeline okay but that's and the timeline's very important may also address the viability of the various sites which right which you know canly is I think uh to our to our it's a selling point that we created right yeah yeah yeah which would work yes right because we would cut down on the total number um ultimate number certainly could okay all right we done with this topic okay let's move on to discussion of contingency PLS so it seems to me the state to come back with two kinds of objections for propos first is they might argue that some of our dimensional requirements some of our design guidelines are too strict or something like that and the other is that they might find objection to the some of our districts for reason so and I think the district one is harder for us to deal with than St I think if they said 6,000 square feet is too too small or too large a minimum lot size that might Square per a mile I don't know but but it we put the information into the model and it complies I find it hard to believe that they are going to question anything yeah that that's that's that's not going to be an issue the issue that we kind of cover trying to cover here is because we keep hearing it is that new board park is uh can it be is uh deed restricted and it somehow might get kicked out as that three acres being eligible I think we're we're spending a lot of time on something that is unlikely to happen because the state has their computer system locked and loaded they're not going to be going around to to 177 towns and second guessing what they have built into their computer system as to what's excluded and what's not I sure hope you're right I mean I I hope if you're not right I'd like to have an answer yeah I mean I I just think that the whole way the scheme is is developed is you you conform with that model well Sarah I mean Mark and I worked on it and I think there are some I don't think it's too complicated and I think that we can Comfort ourselves with knowing that there are some very simple straightforward changes we could make and so we don't have to go any further or get any more complicated with them it's it's not a big problem okay um it it would be better have Newport but it's not the end so um so basically what we did is if you have to remove those three acres um we did a couple things we made a few adjustments to some of the other areas and what do you mean by a few adjustments to some of the other adding properties no so we did two things we added because we lose three acres yep we have to add some something like an acre and a half in order to keep the the district size to meet that requirement not not within the the the radius but just that size of that big District can't we have so Richard we came up with two ways of doing it one is adding a few properties at this end what end of this end of um Pine Street going up Bannon Street just adjacent to um the garage and then we did the other end of Pine Street just going up a little bit further and um I think that's the one wased because you included antiques on um Benn Street yes well that's why we're recommending the other way but we wanted to say show that you could do it this way or this way give a couple Alternatives so and then we made some adjustments to some of the other numbers and we found a a one mistake and one adjustment that we still may want to make for the Summer Street the Allen to Richard doesn't agree but I I think there's there's one adjustment we still might want to make for that Allen to Lincoln Street section in what way uh by uh reducing so we have a minimum size of for the first unit of 2500 and then 2,000 for each so you have to have 6500 if we make it 2,000 for the first unit and 2,000 for each you only need 6,000 and we end up picking up couple of properties three properties which can't be developed yep so that's nine units and then there's three of properties which are believe can get an extra unit um that makes s yeah that stretch so you're adding 12 units in total by making that one little change which if nothing else happens allows you to drop beer Dam by 10 more units or 12 units theoretically so that you go from 100 to 90 remember those are 100% new units why would you do that if Newport Park is out because Newport Park represents I'm saying I'm saying if Newport Park is still in you may wanna you may want to consider so so if we're gonna do it we do it now we don't sit and dwaddle about it I would I would I argue against it on this basis we have already selected the two Gateway areas into town on ir and Lincoln adding 12 more units on the Allen of Lincoln stretch which is what this does versus adding 10 units in the LCD really seems like a trade-off that goes against to me goes against the uh the take the pressure off downtown the guidelines that we set for ourselves when we started I'm I think we've gone very far in terms of zoning our inner town as it is so I'm I'm I I have I don't like I don't like Bennett I don't like taking Bennett and I don't like taking additional 10 units although it would work to to Mark's point it does I have a concern of if Newport Park is still in juggling anything with oh I don't want to do any juggling if I don't want to change anything I mean this I thought what was under consideration was we were preparing a backup plan in case the state said Newport in putting together the backup plan I came across this little adjustment so in order because Newport Park is 73 units I think it is uh total total right so we have to so by taking that out we have to come up with 73 units so we by adding the end of Pine Street we add 15 or we add like 20 plus units and then we discovered one small mistake for the beach to I don't think it was a mistake yeah it was well it wasn't models I prepared originally had that number in it so from my point of view it wasn't so I don't want to be jury rigging stuff at this point anyway can we can we limit this discussion to the original point which is the Newport contingency that's really the issue Newport contingency there's a thousand ways to make up for Newport obviously we could start from all over again there's a thousand ways to do it we just came up with two and whichever one you favor they're just there as sort of examples of what we could fall back on if we had to one of them goes up a little further up Pine cuts down the additional unit sizes to 2,000 in summer Allen and and on the Allen the Lincoln as you just saw picks up additional units there for anybody that's interested I have a table that shows exactly what the difference in units the exact addresses and Parcels that changed in unit size and then a fairly large number of units from Mark suggestion came out of the powderhouse district where we also made some unit size changes and that picked up a number of additional units together that all comes down to meeting the requirements okay I'd like to be sure I could understand so in the Newport contingency plans um those 73 units that would disappear here with Newport would you feel both of you feel comfortable there's a way to make them up without yes sending things Haywire yes you don't have to actually make up 73 units reducing the total size of the the district right right we had a little coming out to 15.1 yeah okay precise and I assume you keep the properties that aren't Newport park into the in the loop yes yes okay yeah it goes up it it that side of pine looks exactly looks exactly like it did before except that Newport is withdrawn and the other side of pine goes a little further in one model or you take Ben and Street yeah how much of Ben it are you taking your it would be my house yes um and the first one is under size so that wouldn't have anything correct 3900 Square ft yeah so it's your neighbors on either side oh would be the no I don't think I I think that Bennett Street is one of the one of the uh beautiful the problem is you got the house from 1730 which is the second one Mark Mark's point is they're all going to get torn down anywhere well being torn down really because one of one of our goals from the beginning has been not to change the character of the town and I think Bennett Street has a lot more to do with the character of the Town than upper Pine Street I agree I agree so I suggest we just take the Bennett Street potential house in town on V we we we both agreed we just wanted to see what happens discuss it with you make sure every because it is an a natural extension at the other end of the district except that we've carefully avoided historic houses I wanted to we wanted to bring option those aren't protected is there a uh could we get a an opinion from DCd or whatever the hell they're called on the issue we don't want it no we don't we don't want to push the issue we want it to Coast body we want we don't want to raise the issue with them I mean it's in their system saying it's not excluded what would cause them to to make it as long as as long as it's in the system yeah that's my I agree with you Sarah it it's in the computer it shows as being allowable we followed the rules we used it even though the language there is language which in it's ambiguous because that's current use and we're talking about Z use we're not okay in fact we might even we might introduce some nonelderly housing let sleeping dogs lie yeah okay that's my feeling is I mean we're spending a lot of time on the wh ifs right um whereas if we had some clarity make life a little I don't think we need to spend any more time on the what if I think the the conclusion is that we'll be okay you've got something put it aside and not worry about it again until we have exactly okay going back to the problems is there any chance some of the things in the site plan review have particularly for the properties that are in the water um resource protection zone are would normally be special permit and we've kind of slid them into sight PL site plan review with the idea that you wouldn't get through site plan review if you didn't meet the requirements that are in the underlying zoning and is that one going to bite us no I don't think so we're say what we're saying is that all of the requirements of the water protection Resource District still apply to these properties we're just not requiring a separate special C and the law says that pretty specifically does it not or the guidelines to yeah so so if they don't meet the requirements I guess the only thing that gets taken away is the discretionary part but right that's that's I want it to be a discretionary per there aren't that many properties except I guess the LCD LCD LCD and then a portion um no portion of all to the garage at the corner of Lincoln summer I don't know why everybody dislikes a garage so much I mean it's a working facility in the middle of our town that people use it's like gasoline leaking out of the tanks into the water you're not talking about Standley you're talking about the gas station at Lincoln it's leaking no it isn't it's in the water res Source District both both of them are used for storing cars and and that's there's a risk if you're storing cars outdoors I I don't have the same attitude about a working garage I think it's good to have working garages in town all right should we move on yeah so unfortunately Su Philbert is not here so I'll have to to tell you what's happening oh but Sand's we've just been communicating like crazy that's I mean that's the simple net there's a um you know being present at music in the park festival by the Sea there are a bunch of public forums playing for the fall I think uh Tiffany sent out this document which has a long list of uh specific events and we can the next one on the list is September a public format on September 21st yeah anyway so there's we're basically trying to give as many possible informal opportunities for people to interact with the members of the task force and specifically the communications committee um about you know to answer questions are they still asking question are you still getting a lot of people oh my gosh um I wish Sue were here because she took some fairly detailed notes I was unfortunately still with covid so um I wasn't there but there many people came good and there was a fair amount of uh information that was incorrect that people had but they were trying to figure out what was going on and um the maps um I think in terms of the consciousness of the town if there is such a thing that people have been generally aware about there is this process there will be a change in zoning but what exactly it means things have popped up like oh ranol street but that's gone away I think for the most part but now there are the districts so what are these districts about and um what um Sue Chris and you were there too Denny right yeah at the so um had were the maps of the districts and those are very helpful you know people are pretty interested looking so we have a website which um I've gone to and looked at a lot you have to you have to really be ready to do a little digging on the website on the website get to the information it's not an open book that guides you through your your comments would be welcome because Tiffany is wanting to look at it and organize it better because what happened it started out as a few things and now it's yeah it's like when I look at it right now it looks to me like a whole lot of stuff that should be in the appendix and what I'm what I'm curious about is whether or not we could come up with something think of it this way whether it's electronic or not it's like a five page brochure that shows you uh uh the the layouts that are crystal clear and uh we can layer that with additional information perhaps showing colorcoded densities and so forth but what I worry about is that we've got events which attract a certain portion of the population lots of people I don't know how we reach and if we had something really transparent and simple like the zoning overlay districts proposed yeah that's really good yeah Chris sent out something it has it has all of the information it has the districts okay yes well it has the answers to the question that I think is most frequently picked various things where do I as a citizen interested now get that that I think we need to what's the next thing we to put this on the website I also need to make sure that the information charg yes can we make sure that somehow it is highlighted in such a way that that's what I'm get what I'm trying to get at is I I it's there's a lot of noise on that site maybe you say distri zoning overlay District summary as of X date and have an August date on it there's a maybe maybe what we can do is we can add a because we have different sections with long lists of on that website can get can get structured trying to figure out so maybe we can put the latest information is here and then you have the summary and then you have the district maps and then you have the bylaw and that's it yeah then you have something that says like resources if you want to leave all that stuff in which we probably do I mean now we have stuff up there that we're no longer looking at right confusing there are archives there that are very confusing that are kind of the same weight you have over years in terms of way you look at is things that are newer yeah okay so maybe that's a very good approach so there's another thing we're trying too which is some videos in Sandy and I tried one where we trying to explain the sea to the beach to see District district right and kind of walk around and show videos of the buildings and talk about them we we Tred to do for the what we're trying to do for the districts is what we did for the idea of density which is to take people around and show them things because I I think there's some Concepts that are just really hard for people to understand I mean the whole idea of capacity the whole idea of what limits you know what are the constraints on the side of anything you can build I mean it's it's all a little tough I mean so we thought that we tried to help gonna do the Allan to Lincoln one yar's gonna Do's gonna do the LCD but we need some people to do the Pine Street Newport then so I don't know who I think you got volunteered dny well okay my my enthusiasm is for something which I guess is close to what you did which is a four to six page brochure that hits people right between the eyes with the with the most important features of it I I'm not sure how many so I I want to give you a new perspective on this from a planning board meeting that we were at two weeks ago oh boy it was all about the blasting thing and there were a lot of people here from the neighborhood and what amazed me surprised me I guess was little those people me about why some people why are they blasting what blasting so there what's CST what is CST yeah so you can't assume so we have to just be at some very basic level we have to explain well this is um this is a a vote which has pretty serious consequences if we don't get it passed we all know that is there anything we can do VIA mail yeah that's what I'm Wonder really get at people if you had a chance to look at this there's a direct mail piece what are you gonna send in it's be a big postcard say with a with a QR code say more what's going on I would almost send this whole thing out TR that's my opin you know you need to reach our I don't do QR codes I'm sorry yeah okay there's somebody younger than me who doesn't do you QR codes you're so relieved yeah I I you're getting to what I I'm trying to say I 35% of the population in Manchester if we can if we can I get brochures from aluminum sighting for my brick house you can send those out surely we can I just I think we need to this is kind of like a town report we need to send it out that's my opinion I I really I think if you send out something I think you're better off sending out a postcard that people will actually look at yes and then have the tell them where it is on the website well you can also pick a few bullet points you can do I don't know what you can do on a postcard I I don't don't I don't understand if this is a zoning thing I mean I don't understand how anybody can have any opinion about this all at all without looking at maps I mean I what it would possibly so one side of the postcard is the maps and the other side has bullet points on the possible density in in the areas and we're gonna have to send some magnifying glasses I don't no this is a big postcard you know but actually that's right we're thinking about a pretty big I mean I I don't think I don't think that people care anything about this acreage per unit or anything like that I don't think the backs or anything like that no no they don't they don't they care about the maps they care about the maps they care about the maps and how many how big a structure could be on a lot I think I think the idea about getting a map to them is that if that map upsets them for if the map doesn't upset then then we're we're home that does upset them you can hope that they will go foruse the code but that seems like something that's going to trigger people when they when they look at it and they realize yeah this really is my neighbor or yeah yeah I think I think it I agree I think it's the maps and I also think it's this chart shows units potential units oh potential units yeah capacity versus potential units yeah thosee two things are the maps and that and that's it this St this other stuff I mean it just gives people a headache you know the all the dimensional standards most people don't think about that unless they're in the midst of a project or even then they don't oh well there you go so um what what I would hope that we do or guys we doing all this work that I'm not doing what I what I would hope to see is that we concentrate it's great to have all these events but what worries me about all these events is that we're reaching a lot of the same people well I think I worry about and we've got a lot of people to reach I feel that way about the forums um because I think people come who are kind of more aware and you know who generally want to know more but I think having the table at the um F at the festival and at the uh you know Manchester by the Sea thing you get a lot of people just streaming by and we've had little bits of things for people to munch on and things like that but that's still still you're not reaching people so we also going to see the Manchester club and counsel aging lunch and the Women's Club yes it's all good I I agree it's all great but I don't know how I mean there's awful lot of people they're not gonna well why I check with Tiffany tomorrow and see where she is with her postard and um maybe we can get something s around yeah you think that postcard poster side we we were talking actually about two postcards but we need if we have the budget for two postcards yeah one earlier and one close to the event I experiened some doing big um resoning where you you do shop it around and go to the Senior Center and go to the clubs and do a couple public events you're reaching a lot of the people who generally go to town meeting they're involved in those places and in those um Community forums and they'll show up so you are reaching a lot of those people and they talk to their friends and so on and so forth so um just those things and I go to town meeting no just just as an FYI um Allan is planning on having twice as many people at this town meeting as we normally have so twice as many would be how many somewhere between six and 800 okay I think so there will be people who don't regularly go to town meeting and don't have a clue what NBTA zoning is you know another way of thinking about this is that there should be no question but that everybody who lives anywhere close to any of these districts should be getting contact that's a little problematic because everyone in the town is gonna be cares about it yes I know but the people that live with it I I understand I'm not suggesting we don't try to reach everybody but I'm just saying that if you want to see the people that are more most likely I would think to get really worked up about this they're going to be the people that live within you know a reasonable distance of this wouldn't you think not necessarily that's not the noise that we're hearing what what' you say an I said it's not the noise that we're hearing I think a postcard with the district show on yeah I'm all for that I I'm I'm all for that I I really think we should be doing something let me give you some stats this is and I I am unfamiliar with these except for that they're written here um but the quarterly new newsletter goes to 2500 households there's been information that the one that goes out with your your tax bill oh God assuming that you get your tax bill which is not not always the case well right um the tide has uh 2,000 subscribers and there's a little piece that's published every Friday and Tiffany tries to get a little piece to alert people um she's doing things with social media what I don't know is if it is the town's Facebook page the town's Instagram the town's X account but there's you know 2,000 Facebook subscribers one and a half uh thousand uh Instagram subscribers and 400x subscribers so there's an effort to touch a lot of places I get a map in front of people and I haven't seen any Maps yeah I mean the the thing that's in the tide I pay no attention to that nobody's put a map I scan through I scan through the tide real quickly um okay I'm not saying the effort isn't there but it's just you know I don't ever click on the thing to go look on the other hand you are so involved with town that nobody could get anything by you what would she possibly learn from the [Laughter] time I think Tiffany has her hand up oh sorry Tiff that's okay hi everybody um good evening I so I just wanted to comment that the communication plan for this phase does comprise of um a mult multi- um communication mediums um in order to reach different groups of people so and we do have a direct mail piece on there and the size the exact size hasn't been determined yet but it'll have more than just a QR code um it will have also you know the website link the direct link um to the page where they can get more information we can talk about the content um it's really important that the um dates um are on that postcard as well because we want to provide people with opportunities for um public hearings and public forums in order to be heard and and to learn more and to ask questions in person we've been finding that um I do I I I I do I hear all of you and I think that all of the ideas are great and um I just think we need to use all the tools in our toolbox um to get the word out and um and I do think that the Grassroots smaller um conversations and events that we're doing have been really effective because um this can be a little bit emotional for people and having that opportunity to have that one-on-one conversation has has been really effective we've found um in the Communications Group um people have a chance without being in a large crowd um ask sharing their concerns and um usually it ends these conversations end really positively where um the resident walks away understanding more and the hope is that they're going to go share that with somebody else um and and and the word will spread that way too we're a small town and people talk to each other neighbors talk to each other so um I I think that and that's part of going to these groups like The Council on Aging it's part of being at the festivals and just having an informal table um but also certainly the direct mail will be really important um the newsletter um is just another tool that we have and I mean I've had plenty of people tell me that they love that they read their newsletter and the tide every week and mostly it's people that really aren't in tune with Town Hall and they commented to me that you know it's a great way that they can keep up a snapshot of what's going on they can have a One-Stop shop of like what do I need to know so I don't have to dig too deep you know of what's going on in town hall for the week so it's it's just another way to reach people um and uh and the newsletter gets shared um online it gets posted to the website and it gets shared on social media um each quarter so it's not just the the people that open their mail it'll be should be more than that hopefully but it won't be our only tool that we use so would it would it be possible to think about sending something out direct mail that as as I said is kind of a trigger uh that precedes a forum event so we can try and you know shake the tree and then give people an opportunity to come to uh a larger for if they're Disturbed prior I'm not sure what you mean as a well what I'm thinking is that I'm imagining and maybe I'm all wrong but I'm imagining there's a lot of people who just haven't heard haven't thought about it don't have details and aren't going to get it yeah so if we were to send out something I'm not suggesting that it would be provocative but you know you send out a map you send out something that really puts something very Concrete in front of them but you have enough time so that they they can come to a forum after that so that it's not so close to the town meeting that we that's an argument for two postcards well whatever yeah but I'm that's why I say shake the tree see if we can find the people that are upset by what's might be upset by what's coming and offer an opportunity to do the good work that you folks have been doing in in talking individually at forums and so forth I just well there is a forum plan for the 21st which would mean you'd have to get a postcard out pretty quickly after Labor Deb but you could do it I mean Ann's comment about one side's the map the other is a couple bullet points about the whole process come to the and we we have two forums planned so the first the 21st is we're trying to also capture different times of day that might work for different um either age groups or demographics of people so the Saturday the 21st will be um an in-person event on Town common we we held an event like this a year ago and it was pretty successful um and then um we're going to follow that up the next week um on October 2nd with um a virtual a similar format but just virtual so at 7:00 at night so we're trying to also provide opportunities for people because we do feel like the conversations are so helpful like you can give people the information but um you know being able to talk it out with somebody seems to um resonate really well um and because it is a complex topic so Tiffany with that um virtual Forum um yes are are you going to put that up on YouTube I've been surprised with the um from the 40b um public hearings how many people watch the hearing separately on YouTube after after the fact um absolutely and I mean I've just you know some 20s something year old with a five we week old baby stopped me on the street he says are you the person from he said he says I watch it on YouTube said yeah yeah yeah it's a whole different yeah so and that and I'm you know that just kind of surprised me yeah I think people do watch and they can watch it after the fact they don't have to tune in live that's a benefit of recording these meetings so we will share that we do I do Post every task force MBTA zoning themed meeting gets posted so um we'll be sharing those and that's why we're doing want to produce um a little not like you know Hollywood rated but um short videos we're getting we're getting better though you are so diplomatic to but close we have very good talent so um are working on short videos of each district and you know just another another way to because sometimes somebody can be making dinner folding laundry and they can watch a five 10 minute video and maybe that help you know that visual is you know resonates more than having to read through a six-page document so um we're just trying different ways um and we know we know it's going to be busy this fall it is it is do do enough people is it you I'm asking really Sarah and Anna specie well and and Mark also do enough people come to town hall so putting the Ms up someplace on the first floor would make sense to do I would think it would make sense yeah yeah lots of people fors what did um Greg said once that we were talking about real estate bills and he said I happen to pay mine in person and he said 50% of the people do really wow now it's not 50% because a lot of people have their tax bill paid by the bank but of the people who receive physical tax bills he said 50% pay in person no kidding because they don't trust the internet we have to pay an extra 40 cents to do it online oh it's more than that there's a there's a percentage yanes my excuses I get the walk in giv your walk for the day right um but so yeah I think having something in town hall would be so I want to go back to this video because we still need people to do the Palm Street ones and what we discovered doing the Beach Street one was it was really important to have a story board so we have some scene set up with what to say and and what's going to be shown on the video Al together so I've actually done it for Pin Street I have sort of rudimentary storyboard sequence we just need somebody to narrate it essentially and it could be one person it could be two people maybe somebody does Newport and somebody else does the rest of it I don't know it's oh we hear lots of volunteers here I said I would help I'll be part of a a Duo here at me it's an easy audition yeah keep me in my I I'd be more than willing to help but at the moment I can't really tell you when available well we're not ready for you yet okay well we'll just let that cruise for a while in need of pin Street volunteer is the net net from that agenda item and also getting maps at Town Hall is it Tiffany Mark is it complicated to put those Maps that we have up there do you want to put up other Maps what could you do I aren't Tiffany aren't there maps in the other meeting room yeah the you mean the the four maps that we've been using on foam board we can and we have easel so I can easily put those up in the lobby um entryway on easel Monday it's just that we have a some voting stuff there so I might have to wait I don't let me see where we can actually should be good voting right yeah yeah yeah I mean I could yeah I could put them upstairs where I think they need to be downstairs y downstairs I think the majority of people go to town clerk and to the treasurer right yes right got get them before they gotta get them before they pass the yeah yeah I'll look I'll look Monday to see where you know they won't be in people's wet people will still be able to get around um where we can put them I we'll find a spot yeah but we can't put up and yeah it's not bad idea that would be great I guess a sound truck is right out oh brother video Al Wilson estimating 6 to 800 people what's a normal one of M year 3 400 yeah Okay so we've presumably we've already you know been successful in getting this is going to be the issue of the town meeting yeah that's why the extra people that's why he's expecting but you know at least you've got two or 300 people more who are energized to come and who presumably some people are for it in very active way are somewhat knowledgeable some people are not every there's going to be those that are have never let facts get in the way of an opinion um but you know that's a that's a pretty good penetration rate when you think about it already do you want to talk about the conversation with Jeff Del Jeff um yeah sure well we we did wanted to brief him brief Jeff he was a new select board person and um we asked him what me thought we should be doing that we're not doing essentially and what were the concerns he was hearing from people yeah and he came away pretty positive yeah so he asked a lot of the questions and you know there were all the basic things about density and highrise there's a lot of information about MBTA zoning that does not come from Manchester but comes from other sources whether it's the Boston Globe or other local organizations I am not as optimistic as you are Denny about the additional 300 and what their level of deep knowledge on the subject would be I hope you're right and you may well be well I'm not saying there you know there's going to be people who have no knowledge and just you know I've heard something about the character of the Town changing there's a sign on the corner uh in the where con store is that's already you know yeah there was a float in the Fourth of July parade right and you know we got people who definitely were fired up and who who are not operating full a full amount and and we've got people that we're never going to reach that are that are going to be antagonistic I and we've we've got people who are informed and have networks of their own I mean there's a g in town who's pretty enthusiastic about the idea and has a mailing list of a emailing list of 150 people who are there's also a active group not Statewide but with among the 177 communities that are we lost um and and our willing you say again and we you cut out for a second yeah I cut out a lot um there is a very active group among the communities that are looking at this and if you drive through Hamilton there are signs saying just say no um and and there are people who are going to get their information that way the people who are who are opposed to this are opposed to the state taking over and coming up with a one-size fits-all program um and not recognizing that Manchester needs senior housing and affordable housing and we're going about this all wrong and um those people um are good at communicating um we've seen it in at various Town meetings with the the uh Postcards From the Manchester matters people um and that's going to bring out people and they are going to have information that doesn't come from us so Jeff Delany made a very good point he said one of the things we should be saying is that although this is a state requirement the state is leaving the zoning up to us and this is our local way coping with it it's not just right if they were they could do like the adus and just say that's it that's it you're G to have multi family housing Bo but where the districts are how many of them is there one are there seven you know there's some outer boundary conditions that the state set but in terms of the details of the zoning the location Etc and how the bylaw works it's really been up to us so said we should be stressing that which I think is a very good point that's that what we have to address is is that we have done the the the effort has been to put forth um zoning changes that will minimize the changes to the character of the Town um and that will frankly throttle the growth um there have been towns that have just said okay here is however many acres that's in the middle of a you know wooded area just it's all new construction um and and we need to make sure that people understand that that it the basic rules are one size fits-all everybody has to have this many um units within this area and some other number of units someplace else but the way the towns do it differs a lot and yes I've been surprised at that actually because I've been reading a bit about what some of the other towns are doing and they haven't taken advantage of the areas where there already is housing that effectively counts well you know the capacity I just think we should be a little provocative if we have to be and shake the tree a bit because the people we really want to reach now you do guys have probably done a great job at reaching all the people that have genuine well interest in in coming we need to reach the people that we're talking about trying to do a banner on the on that fence um that says you know here's gives some basic bullet point information and gives a yeah go here okay I just I I think Maps I think you gotta get some out get map the maps are that's how people understand what it is okay let's move on here yeah so we got some meeting minutes to approve uh June scale s them move to approve the move to approve the meeting minutes from June 6 second guess Richard second um any discussion no all in favor I ious uh now I'm gonna see if there's any public comment is there anyone out there who would like to anyone there raise your hand on Zoom Sarah Sarah hi Sarah Paris 9 friend street thank you for taking my uh comments I just want to raise the point um that there I think people's concern shouldn't be looked at in a negative way I think a lot of people have extreme valid concerns about some of the changes that are in writing and being well already sent off to the state like adding four-story buildings to Manchester possibly a lot more traffic I mean we can't there's so many things that are happening at once it's a lot coming at residents I grew up here in this town I was the one that did that parade float and I did it not to protest the MBTA but more to highlight Manchester by the Sea at the beautiful small coastal town that it is and I think that a lot of people are just concerned and rightfully so and I don't think it's the best approach to try to tell people that they're wrong or they shouldn't be concern because there has to be some level of concern from residents there change brings concern and and and not being transparent brings concern so I wonder like when you do these visuals or these walk you know I haven't been on any of your um walking tours or groups or anything like that but I mean are you saying people like well in this area we there are four store build building zoned for this lot and it's going to be you know or do visuals to show that because people would rather see what the actual outcome would be than be unpleasantly surprised and feel like the towns just giving the information that you're going to get sued if you vote no you're going to have grants taken away if you vote no you also have to address the fact of what is going to happen to the town if it does pass because people are going to want to know that and that would that would be my comment I'm just a lifelong you know supporter of this small coastal town and that be my comment and my wish that there's transparency on both sides so thank you very much yeah I I think that you're absolutely right we have to explain exactly what's going to happen I think we've tried to do that as best we can I I think the kind of statement like for example that four story buildings are coming to Manchester is technically correct and we do say that however the devil's in the details there only a couple of places where we'll be allowing four story buildings and they're not near anyone's home they're at Newport Park up against poale they're but it's still and then you still you know you have up at The Limited commercial district and I'm just saying it's going it's going to change the town it's going to generate a lot more traffic in conjunction with other large projects that are coming to town a lot of people are aware a lot of people I and I also think there's you know like a difference of opinion of what is considered misinformation or information that people want to have is their own belief like what's good for the town what's good for the town for some people might be a what's good for the town for other people might not even be on their radar I mean a lot of people may like this idea and might vote Yes a lot of people don't like the idea just for the simple fact that yes the state is mandating that we change a lot of our zoning because we have a communter rail and it's they're large changes they're not small so and it doesn't really address affordability and it doesn't no see true that's not true sah this is well you can you can you can ask for it and you can require it but I mean there's been a lot of I I see a lot on social media about conversations and that's those are people's opinions and that I'm not saying it's mine I'm saying they're entitled to their opinions and so unless you can prove well we haven't been able to build any affordable housing says you're entitled to your opinion but not to the facts to not your own facts tell me why tell me please help us understand yeah why people are I think people are let me let me ask you the question um could you to help us understand why anyone is thinking that affordability is not part of the picture for this group of people we're requiring 20% right with five units or more so please help us understand why it there would be some suggestion that affordability wasn't part of the concern of the task force and the I I definitely think it was a concern of yours and I think you guys have done an absolutely outstanding job at the task that you have been given I would never have wanted thought about it and now that I've seen how it all had to play out kind of glad I stepped away but I've definitely stayed involved I think there's a believability issue in is that going to actually happen because the units that have been built recently are very expensive a lot of people are not seeing this as an affordable house I mean we haven't been able to add any affordable housing to Manchester but yet we're pursuing grants for you know docks in the marina not the not the commercial fishing that's a different industry I'm just saying like we're not we're not looking at issues that have existed people are concerned about the infrastructure like when we were talking earlier about giving real data or having to know how many units and how much more water will we need how much more will we need to upgrade our electrical grid how many more cars will there be on the road how is this going to affect commutes people are going to be concerned about that so that's just an honest feedback of course and and we're this is what this fiscal impact study is supposed to do right and I know you're just trying to do what you can to follow along with something that was dropped in your lap and I totally appreciate that I just wish there was a way in which it could be done that both sides with their own opinions like maybe not wanting Manchester to change and taking on four-story buildings or massive amounts of traffic was acceptable too well well we have to see if it's massive and we have to say I think we need to move along with somebody else who has a public okay sorry I just thank you for listening to all of that thank you thank you for your comments pH Phillip's iPhone whoever's on Philip oh it's Donna yes hi sorry it's Donna thank you for his eight Blossom Lane so did we get back the economic feasibility study to state that we could put 20% for affordability in the Mandate I didn't hear that earlier we have not gotten it back yet no okay I know that you were requesting that so right now we're only at the 10% and and with the 10% afford we submitted 20% no no no I understand that but the state has to agree to that and you're saying we haven't gotten that back yet correct right so I know I know that I know that you guys asked for that because that was a big deal but my question is it's it's states that we would need to build five units at a particular space to get that one unit for 10% correct correct all right so so only the powder the only the um Pine Street powderhouse area am I correct has the five units as well as what the LCD would be so we're kind of hoping that it's a wash right like if if we only get 10% we're kind of hoping that if anything is actually built that we might it might just be a wash we're not going to add more units that are going to require an affordable unit that we didn't match roughly correct so there's a trade-off done if we trying to to protect the town's character by limiting the size of buildings built then we have to give up some affordability there's no question oh no no no I I completely get it again but there are lots of places where this could happen more than five units allow in quite a few Lots throughout the we don't have a cap on the number of units per Lots in some of the districts oh I was just reading from the graph from the notes from the the changes so I it just looked like you know you get 100 units at the LCD like four in different different things so but my more my point is if we're hoping potentially that if within affordable fil ability that we are at a wash meaning like we're hoping that we're not going to add more units that then require our affordable number to go up and then we also also have to remember too that it's 80% of the Ami that's as low as that we can go and so in this area that's still going to be tremendously expensive but there's nothing more that we can do about that right like we can't ask for less than that right so this is not a tool for providing affordable hous oh no I you know that that that's what I want I'm just saying when you're when you're communicating to the public you guys have really wanted to have the affordable piece right you need to Advocate that you've been fighting for that I'm just saying in your messaging like this is a big thing for a lot of people including myself that that's what I get upset about the government like we know what we need in Massachusetts in this particular 4A isn't an affordability piece but you're doing everything in your power to get as much as you can with the most ability even if it's 80% so that people understand what you're trying to do do you understand what I'm saying because that's a big ask for people in the community I'm trying to prepare you that to to make sure that your messaging is that because people are going to want to hear that because that's GNA mean something to the community does that make sense yes yeah that's all I'm saying I know that you guys have advocated for this and fought for this and hopefully with the 20% that maybe we could get that up at the LCD if that's um approved and I just think again that would be great because it's better than nothing it's the messaging that's going to be really important at town meeting and even before that you are advocating for this and doing everything you can in your power because at least it's better than nothing and that's um you guys have done everything I just want to make sure that you put out that messaging because that's important thank you Don I appreciate it no you're welcome thank you guys very much for everything that you do anyone else nope good but we probably could come up with the number of lots that could build five on one unes huh that's a good idea we could say up with the number of lots that could have the number of affordable units in each of those districts you know Sarah's comments about U showing people what it would look like I I wish there was a way we could do it I don't know how we could but there if you could imagine in your mind you can imagine a graphic which would show what this town would look like if the developments that we've allowed were actually built I I don't I'm not going anywhere with this I'm just I just it is interesting it is an interesting thought because what there is an image in their mind and the image in their mind is so here something we have to push the design standards I think that the piece is being lost to the public that the design standards are such that they're going to keep the buildings from looking like some of those contemporary for stories yeah you know but we the image people have an image yes well yes everyone has their own image one of the things to keep in mind for example the the gas station at the corner of Beach and summer yeah they right now by right could subdivide that parcel into three lots and build two two unit building and build hideous structur yeah actually people can build hideous structures all over town they do they do they do several okay we can't control that we're all finished with public comment okay Sarah has her hand up again Sarah yeah but we finished with the public comment she has her hand up okay Sarah quick I think she didn't take it down Sarah are you there she didn't take her hand down okay to Second thank you Chris thank you