##VIDEO ID:LU2F0tX738c## all right um it being 6:30 we'll go ahead and uh call the meeting to order um welcome everybody um happy December um take a Ru call May fley here Gordon Brer here Peter Morton here H here here and Laura Tenny here and Sarah here um I think we're recording can you just confirm that it said it was okay great and this meeting's being recorded um so this is a um now we're going to open the um continued public hearing for nine Proctor Street we'll take a motion to open the continued public hearing sove second I'll second it okay all in favor yes hi any oppos okay thank you um great uh oh finally my thing just downloaded um so this is a application for um the cut and fill at 9 Proctor Street under the Earth section of the bylaw um and why don't the applicant just refresh our because not everybody was in person last time so Mark or your engineer just want to summarize um what what you're doing sure um before Dan from more and Cameron uh summarizes what's happening from an engineer's point of view I'll just remind everybody that the comparados uh prior to theight have been to the Conservation Commission and as I mentioned to those who were at the site visit the order of conditions is issued we also went to the zoning board uh for two special permits to uh enable the compad to install a swimming pool and obviously to pull the house back away from the harbor and build a new house uh and we had to do that because it's a non-conforming property uh it's slightly less than a 90,000 Square ft that's required it has nonconforming Frontage and uh the existing houses non-conforming with respect to setback that's going to be corrected uh when the new house is constructed so those permits are in place and uh our last stop is here uh on account of the fact that the new house and the improvements that are being planned will necessitate uh slightly exceeding the amount of fill and the amount of cut and Dan can explain that much better than I so I have a few figures sure kind of a breakdown of of the site with second being col um site plan well if you take a look you can see second page can you just speak uh speak up and I'll make sure you say who your name your name my name is Dan I put together this breakdown showing you how came technical analysis that we had in the in the permit application um Manchester by the SE zoning bylaw removal and filing ation specifies exclusion areas authorized by exclusion areas authorized authorized buildings being one of them when we first interpreted this regulation we only excluded the proposed dwelling footprint author the authorized dwelling has we known to be while including the existing Foundation area um well while including the area of the existing Foundation which would which would require a lot of fill um this resulted in a much higher fill biome as you can see in the second row on the first page that is how we analyzed it with how we saw fit from the regulations as you can see it came out to be 753 cubic yards of fill which seems like a lot but that's because we're not including all the um the bill for that existing information that needs to be fil in um so when you actually include both the both the foundation that is proposed to cut down and the foundation that's existing to be filled in the first um row there you can see we come up with a a net fill of only 111 cubic yards um so I think that kind of explains why the number was so large um but when you take into account the whole site and the balancing of um both foundations it comes to be more of a even cut fill up the site okay and you just explain um for it's hard for people who are online to uh see your figures so can you just kind of walk us through again you're going to fill the existing house foundation yes so the exting found remove uh how much material for the propos um I broke it out in the first in the table here so if you're only analyzing the proposed Foundation of proos proos dwellings footprint you come up with 642 cubic yards of cut when you analyze just the existing Foundation where we are also proposing a pool which um takes away some of the the fill that we need to be in there you're you're coming up with 563 cubic yards of fill those two kind of balance each other and when you're excluding both of them you come up with a larger um fill amount is material that you're going to cut take away going to be used on the site or is it going to REM be removed from the site and with new a different kind of material coming for the most part most of the material if it's um good enough material will be used on site elsewhere okay but if it's ledgy and rocks and that kind of thing yeah that would probably be used somewhere else on site not be structural for certain certain reasons um I did have one question um for the architect and that is how what's the Architects are uh also present online okay great or maybe the applicant um we have Carrie and Tom okay just um what uh what's the finished height from the courtyard of the house do you want to answer that Carrie I don't have the numbers who's muted muted you're on mute sorry about that let me just get an accurate number for you um one second you did get the host plan I think it says 26 uh and 34 so the reason I'm asking and um and six and 3/4 26 okay is it 2 26 and six no so the max height 26t 6 in and 3/4 than right because you need my the reason for asking is that you are not going to measure that from the courtyard you're going to measure it from the average of the existing grade which has a big slope so so often we see it with the opposite where the slope is this way and the house gets to be higher on the street side because there's the slope but now in this case you've got a um a big divot so your grade from which you're going to measure the height of the house the building inspector is going to measure the height of the house is going to be the average of the existing grades where the house yeah eats it correct the the the morning group calculated the average great plane which we used to make sure that we were under the high highight limitation so that I think we will just we will be just reminding the building inspector of that because it's the opposite of what we usually see which um so it sounds like you considered that yes correct sorry Carrie B with catalo Architects I just wanted to jump in and note that um the average Base plane is noted on the elevations at that elevation 21.85 um and you can see it on the west elevation it's um noted on there so we did calculate that with the mor and Cameron group and have verified that with respect to the overall um max height of the house and then Laura I know you have some questions about the um the steps and the protection for the Oaks that are there do you want me to ask question yeah um yeah I'm just looking well I was I went back after the site meeting to take a look at the regulation and where it applies and um so it talks about um working with the natural topography and um protecting views to the site obviously there's a health safety and Welfare minimize negative impacts including St Water Management sounding sight buffers of light and air so um so one of the um areas that I was looking at and I can see the Civil in here's plan you have a landscape architect on with UIC so one thing I'm wondering is this the Landscape Architects plan and is there going to be some refinement of the grading because my questions have to do with for instance the Oaks hard to tell from this plan exactly which ones they are but I know you're planning to retain some of those trees and while they're outside of the line of disturbance they're not far outside so their vertical root Zone could be within that zone um I also just had a question about the three Bay garage and the grading around that which is filling in quite quite a change to the slope as it's facing um I guess Northwest if this plan is oriented nor north um so you're doing a few feet of filling there and then we're talking about a threeory garage which is going to have the three stories exposed to the kind of water side there and some trees will be retained and I know you're planting other trees but it does seem like on this kind of North facing um slope is where most of the change in the site is happening um particularly with that purple fill and and the exposure of the garage which is retaining um even though you're not doing as much Bill there the garage that's retaining um and what the kind of visual impacts would be from that sight line uh and you know sort of working with the existing natural topography and what the answer is for the trees to be protected so this could be a question for the civil engineer I think the best person to answer this is probably Mike D Roa oh okay Joe yeah U he he obviously uh represented the project before the concom yeah yeah so for the record Mike Roose said Rosen uh we did the work on the project for with the conservation F the nose tent got the order of conditions so the Conservation Commission is having us save all the native trees so all the red Maples are being or red OES are being saved um it's just the invasive trees that are being REM so I think you're asking specifically about the yeah specifically about the Red Oaks that are kind of this area of the so here you know from the pool kind of northwest corner of the s down so those are staying yeah I was just wondering if the if you'd factored in the kind of root protection zone for those yeah we have an arist who's working on the project who's going to be managing the removals and and um protecting all those we're using a lot of wood chips on the root masses so that you know won't be compaction like that okay so I think that um that addresses my um question about the ecology thank you Mike and then the other one was more of a visual impact from looking at it from you know sight lines from kind of coming around the harbor on Beach Street and from um basically you know this side of the peninsula and the because this I think is where the more dramatic changes are going to happen and there going to be a visual impact me don't you have just can I just add a second piece to that which is looks like the back of the garage is um a big retaining W and then you also have a retaining wall off the if I read this correctly off the um the side of the house right Chris comado owner I'm going to ask um Tom to address the architecture of the garage both from the courtyard in the back side of the garage and then I'm going to ask Joe landscape architect from stemson to address the landscape around the garage the terrain around the garage so maybe we could just do it those two orders first the architecture in the courtyard and then the landscape around that garage does that would that be helpful Tom and Joe absolutely Chris sure um uh first I want to just make one um flight correction the garage is um one and a half stories on the courtyard side and two and a half technically on the North side facing um the a butter as you may know from the sidewalk the garage is more or less located where there's an existing structure uh out building and we've we've we've put the garage on that um area to retain uh the ability to get into the garage from the south and we think coming down the driveway looking at it from the courtyard and the majority of the view you're really seeing a one and a half story building and then on the back side where we where the grade is falling away you do see a taller building but it's been it's screened with some of the existing tree that are remaining and then uh Joe will get into what's happening in terms of planting along the edge to screen it but it's it's tight into the ground the the the lower level is clad in the same material as the retaining walls in the site to try and anchor it into the site and break the height down and it's it's really a one and a half story building on a stone Podium which is supporting the great change thanks Tom uh Joe Waller stemson Landscape Architects just building on what Tom is describing yeah the building is positioned at the edge of a slope as as was um identified earlier and what we're trying to do with the Topography is carefully grade that to match the natural forms of the topography wrap it around that kind of Northwestern corner of the garage we're also using a retaining wall on the Northern end to help get grade up along the building to get vegetation higher and integrate this into a reconstructed uh Riverfront Bank working with Mike doosa and team on a natural uh plant restoration those plants will continue up and become the foundational plants on that on that side of the building and garage question Joe so Joe is this your landscape grading plan at this point or is this a kind of preliminary civil plan no we have been working closely with the mor the civil Engineers um on the grading going back and forth uh with the with the whole project team so we um actively collaborating on the gradient okay so it sounds like it's still work in progress now I'm just wondering about you know the seat slopes coming around the Northwest side of the garage and it doesn't really look like it's working it doesn't feel like it's mimicking natural topography yet but if you say that's what you're working on yeah I I do feel like it is we have a a range of slopes there so we're not we're working on not making it feel like a a uniform graded slope but changing our gradients from as steep as 3 to one and then sloping out to more gentle areas so that it does carefully knit in and and our proposed grading is is TI in well with existing grades and protecting the critical root zones of those trees we're looking to protect as well as helping to Nestle the building within it its site and there's another constraint which we are dealing with and Joe's figured this out in the grading and that is we're working to retain the existing uh Title Five field that abuts the uh end of the garage and that's constraining the amount of grade chains that can happen there anyway because we have to work with with that field that's already in place so it's sort B septic not sewer um I just had a couple more followup questions if I which was um so you're talking about these slopes some of which are steeper 3 to one it's is about as steep as you can make it for a natural grade you're working with Mike on revegetating those slopes to make sure that they will be stable and um vegetated afterwards that's correct okay then how do you service the storage that's coming at it from the north I don't see a drive down there I maybe I see a kind of a walk Zone yeah there are a series of pathways this is lighter storage kayaks and and um landscape equipment um coming down from that lawn on the north west side there's um slightly wider foot paths that allow um small access and then there's a foot path that continues along that um northern side of the property okay do we have an elevation in our packet the shows yeah okay that one one one one thing I'd like add if I may and that is that we're also going to be using the space under the garage to house some of the equipment to get it away from the outside of the building which will help to really reduce the sound impact and shield any any unnecessary equipment being seen from off the site that building equipment or what kind of equipment do you mean uh generator for example so the generator will be there and it'll be bented through a thimble so it'll be very quiet when and if it needs to be in use with the uh with the proposed geothermal system all the HVAC equipment is inside the building okay I will say just a comment this this diagram is so helpful because I really wondered with a cut and filled before it sounded like it was totally off a lot more fill so this is making more sense to me from that point of view both dwelling fact didn't know thank you okay and then um I have a question on the the um floor plan that we see there's a light yellow it's upside down that's well and there's a light yellow and a dark yellow what's what is the distinction between those two yeah green light green and green so I believe that like a path is that the pathways I'm not sure share I can share um yeah maybe if you share but I believe if you're talking about this plan and the highlights the Highlight is the existing house this might be a I'm can you this is what I'm looking at it's upside down and I apologize for that but that's this what is this uh no it's not upside down North is up but the numbers are upside down so this light and on my screen this shows is light green and a darker green what are the what are those this colors what are the distinctions of those colors is that a is that a pathway to I'm following up on Laura's question of access to the lower unit the area in white is what's proposed to be a pathway I think I'm not quite sure which drawing this is but Mike might be able to clarify I think the distinction here is everything page up of that is the um mitigation or restoration planting and then these planting areas in here are um landscape plantings uh beyond that that kind of restoration what is the surface of that white area the the white area provides access to the lower level of the um garage this is where we have that storage that we were talking about and then this provides pedestrian access along this Northern side of the building we also have a lower level um egress at this point in the building so that provides Joe Mike can you remind them what the surface material is think it was woodchip or yeah within the um buffer zones its wood chip and it transitions to moan Turf as it moves towards the garage and then up around the Northwest side of the building I'm gonna scroll through that's a question about the fill absolutely go ahead do you um have any idea how many truckloads this equates to um previously previously with what we had provided with you it seemed like there would be a lot more just because we weren't showing you the whole picture because of how we were inter can you just speak up so people on the line can hear you question was how many truck loads I'm not sure exactly how many truck loads it would take but I'd estimate it anywhere five and 10 the maximum I don't think it'd be a real big number you're not going to see many many trucks coming in and out for Bill on need yeah that was question was 50 or no okay um and you mentioned you're going to have a geothermal gatur where is that going to be where's the where are the wells oops I don't where the they are to the southwest of the house um let me Dan do you have the plan that shows them on there they on we yeah I don't know if you can see this but in your plans the geothermal Wells are on the west side of the house the southwest side and we're showing three Wells two one two three so they're the black dot and then are they showing the out covers that is that a something different I'm not sure what you're looking at um I'm just looking at what it's a map in the packet um it's called but it's showing yeah they're all yeah they're all below grade you're not going to see them okay yes may be thinking of the inspection oh septic tank I'm sorry all right one other I'm just going back to my um concern about height I'm looking at the height of the garage at 23 you to show the elevations what are you able to show the elevations that you're working it's a a little hard but I yeah sh sorry that's not working oh yeah okay so this is the garage so that's from the north side so I see that being 23 feet so that's above the courtyard so that's an excess I believe of your 25 of the 25 ft for accessories it's not an accessory building it's connected to the main building so it's all one building to be connected I think you have to be connected by a living wall if that's what you're talking about I I think it it it's connected by a condition space we've since made an update um the connector you see here is no longer open it's it's enclosed with penetration so it's there's a heated connection between the garage and the house there can you show the facade on the other side yeah I'm trying to see do we have a is there a drawing of the side of the back side this is loading the back side of the garage and that retaining wall I can share a continuous one if you'd like be awesome thank you hold let me unshare here and I'll have to give you right I can all right Carrie you should be able to um share okay that's helpful thank you oh yeah and the so the max height at this 26 and 26t 6 and 3/4 which is overall elevation 54.96 is is the ridge height um the average uh average grade plane Baseline around the house is the 21.85 overall feet which Nets out at 33.1 overall feet in height from the average grade plane to the max Ridge so that was a number earlier that I think you were looking for just as a reference um not from the courtyard but just in terms of the overall from the average we updated the backside there's no longer three garages correct correct um we can resubmit that update this is the uh just submission package with the overall and I just wanted to reference the same thing that you might have in front of you so a question so this uh the top elevation which is what you see the north facing side you'll have a one fewer or you'll have some change the number of garage um doors at that bottom level and then what is an open Breeze way now will be en closed so then whatever that length is from one end of the you know the back of the screen porch to the end of the garage is basically theer story that's a solid building wall and at the basement level solid building wall built into the slope I think that you know can I just clarify what I think you're is is that this is because you're filling you can do this you're filling the Breezeway right you're no I don't mean uh I mean filling the landscape is basically allowing this m this significant uh massing along from and then that's what you see from actually if I may um the bottom of this elevation that you see where the build where the three doors are we're going to have fewer doors that's actually more or less the natural grade so the grade is the the design of the building is set by the existing conditions in the grade there we we can't fill there because we're too close to the buffer zone so we're working with the existing grade where the fill is the fill is on the opposite side where we're filling in between the door the upper level garage door that wall of the building and the driveway and Courtyard that's where the fill happens there's no fill happening on on this view other questions or take comments yes so um this this Northern elevation is going to be what you see when you look from be street across the water maybe you could talk about what what it's going to look like because we're going to be doing a lot of planting there whatever comes down has to be yeah whatever comes down has to be replaced with or you can talk about it yeah I I don't think You' be able to see the house actually from Beach Street we're retaining a lot of the existing canopy and everything we're putting in I think over 60 trees that are going back in so that whole side of Beach Tre and that was critical to guys to maintain that makes me feel better there there is one uh thing I do worry about which is some of the neighbors have extensive Landscaping lighting at night so you go along be Street it looks like there's a airport up there we will not do that we can promise you that that is not going to happen you that you won't do that say that again can we make that a condition of the special permit it it really was a condition of the zoning board uh special permit for the swimming pool because lighting always comes up as an issue with swimming pools and tennis courts and so uh as you'll hear from The Architects and Landscape designers it's a dark sky project the uh zoning board included that as a condition um let's take any uh comments from the um uh anybody online or in the room anybody from the public want to speak just raise your hand if you're online seeing anybody uh Karina Kina Gates speak up so that Kina Gates School Street in Desmond Avenue um I read about these uh owners who were trying to build the house on a nonconforming lot and I uh was very interested to find out you know what goes on because we had to do deal similarly with a neighbor who is trying to do that and is there a difference between owners that they live in downtown and the owners who have a lot more land but still a non-conforming lot when the petition for a plan for it the the the non-conforming lot if I may answer the non-conforming lot was an issue with respect to the Zoning Board hearing and that was the reason we were before the zoning board so we had to convince them that what we were proposing was not going to be more detrimental to the neighborhood than what is there currently right and they obviously concurred right well I personally we live in this much smaller area of land and our neighbor who is planning that I'm bring it up who bought the property and it's a very small time of land he we had there were trees there they are dead now but uh we always felt that they had to replant the things that they were there before because when we bought our property was really you couldn't see the Neighbors on both Sid we things nobody else did but um so that's why my question was do the rules apply it asn't matter if you're Village territory it's hard to generalize any particular is unique circum maintain the same status for the owners for neighbors and so on that's why I'm okay other comments from the board or um Laura go ahead so I I understand a lot better now since I mean it was I had a site meeting and then a lot of additional information tonight which is really helpful I think my two remaining questions which could probably be resolved the rest of the board agrees with just a couple of additional revised rendering and maybe a plan is really that North facing um kind of the building massing I understand that you're not doing a lot of filling in there and that does enable to have this enables you to have this two and a half story building by the time it's connected by the enclos Breeze weight it's going to be quite a long building wall with a potential for a a significant visual impact on the North side so I think what would give me some reassurance that it's protecting the um kind of Scenic Harbor and the neighbors who are looking on it from that side would be a revised elevation showing the infill Breezeway and um what is the base you know the the ground story of the garage look like and then if it's something that we could ask for just a plan that shows the intention for the site to the north of that and how it's going to be um I mean it can be schematic I think but if we had a planting plan so we could really understand what the buffer was that is going to um screen that both in leaf off period and and when things are in leaf I uh I think that would resolve my questions about the impact on the from the beach street view and you know towards the neighbors looking at the North the North North facing facade of this I think that's where the real significant change is going to be happening the fact that the building's moving back on the site and that you're um you know replacing the Norway Maples and doing native plantings those are all good things it is still a significant change and so I think just kind of ensuring that um that uh it sounds like you're being thoughtful about it but it would help to we're just kind of talking about it right now so if we had some additional information in plan and elevation that would help me I did include the um order conditions I just got it I just I saw that from the um I'm sorry I just put it in this afternoon so see that I'm just gonna look they have there specific yeah page five starts the special conditions that specific um so it's let me just summarize the special conditions um there's a construction period pollution prevention plan um only chemically untreated wood products which is green oak or I guess that's the landscape materials tree work should be over saing by a licensed arborist um maery kept as far as possible from the creek and the Coastal Bank the vegetated wetlands and no event shall be permitted in any Wetland resource all debris shall be removed from invasive should be removed and collected and transported off site mitigation planting should be moned for two growing Seasons till at least 85% survivorship use of toxic substances for lawn garden maintenance um due to the proximities fite I'm summarizing here proximity Wetlands um pesticides and herbicides are permanently prohibited um organic slow release fertilizers the only fertilizers allowed oice at phosphorous levels the applicant should Place suitable permanent structure permanent conservation monuments um denoting The reparan Zone deing chemicals should be limited to the smallest amount necessary Hazard materials shall be securely stored above the FEMA flood zone maintain All perious Surface regulating regularly um the services remain permeable uh cool water should be treated by an UV system or low other low chlorine method and uh prior to the certificate of completion and upon the sale of the property to the subsequent owners each new owner shall receive a letter to the Manchester Conservation Commission acknowledging that he or she understands the wetlands restrictions and that there were no additional alterations to the jurisdictional buffers and resource areas without express permission of the Conservation Commission yeah just the planting plan we had a detailed planting plan which we can easily get to you for the conservation approval so be great it's all on that actually you got Mr Conservation Commission right here you can get it to you mam CH I was actually GNA speak up on that I could run next door if you all need Mar and and get that it might be helpful because hopefully you're you're not going to suggest that we continue in order to get that plan if we could get it tonight and that would lay your fears I'd much rather have it than Kick the Can down the road again every plant has been identified already uh that sounds great I guess we were just talking about an um update of rendering Maybe that's not necessary and we could just point to that again and say what's changing in it and then have an understanding of how that will impact I feel like architectural things are maybe a little out of our that's fair yeah so so maybe the planting plan would and the issue around the Breezeway is going to be uh if they don't enclose it they won't get their height I understood totally understand that yeah um yeah which yeah the I take your point on the architectural rendering not our purview I was really just thinking about the kind of mass of the building and how we would screen it so the planting plan would address that that it nearby that be great we can see it U Mark you want to weigh in on anything we've talked about no I think um gone through everything um I think the biggest concern because being that North elevation but uh I don't know whether it's visible from it is from Beach Street absolutely you can see the the slope there right now it's all marked with coir rose like part of the problem I guess is the significant clearing that took place next door uh which I think is the light lighted property which we don't have any control over of course well we have someone online uh Teresa hi there good evening so Teresa Conway 7 trctor Street we've talked a lot about the building location but there's quite a long driveway that goes down to the property right now it's um maybe it's dirt and there's rows of trees can you just outline what the plan is for the driveway and the trees along the driveway thank you Joe would you like me to yeah I can I can address that one yeah so we're proposing to um keep the driveway more or less in the existing configuration like you said the material is kind of a hard pack gravel uh soil mix it um we're still working on material but most likely upgraded to a gravel drive with a a solid apron at uh Proctor Street the the width of the driveway is staining uh single travel Lane we are working with the arborist to evaluate the existing trees many of them are uh White Pines which are near the end of their effective life as well as some Norway Maples so those trees are being considered for removal but will be replaced uh with new uh generational long lived uh trees Oaks and Maples and other uh appropriate species to restore that canopy and also the um privacy that the planting along both sides of that driveway afford the Neighbors on either side as as well as the overall neighborhood thank you so I think we've heard a couple of conditions Mark um one is the um no uplighting and no um uh and any exterior lights of be dark sky compliance um the um we want to reiterate the um infection of the tree um the trees to remain the hard hard Remain the root other uh things we C up hey Sarah this is Gordon I just uh forgive me for not being there the uh but I was at the site last week so I have a good visual of it here I think laa point I I don't know if it's in our purview or not but I think L's point about having a a planting plan particularly of that north side I would imagine it's going to be developed as part of the program anyway would be have some relevance to us does it not it's to for visible and and and just sheer coverage it would we not want to make that part of our condition maybe not the architectural comment but the but the land and the site plan would be a good idea yeah the um what we're doing is Laura's right now looking through the um concom folder to kind of clarify the um the the plant the plan um Mike if you want to help or that's fine so these are species quties maybe you can just summarize for all of us what the can I ask you a question is black locust considered invasive these days I know it's been is yeah and that that's the primary one from black locust and Norway map and Norway map okay so do you want to um here you can yeah just kind of give us a high level summary of the num of trees sure uh trees we' get over 60 60 trees and how big are they red maple Red Oak Red Bud white pine American Holly and S gum so what we're doing is we're doing some uh species migration given climate change conservation commissions want us to start looking at at bringing in some Southern species that are going to going to be the canopy 50 years from now so that's why the sweet gum is in there and the uh and the red butt is in there they're both More Southern species we've got the American holly in there which is an evergreen um and the uh Red Oak and red maple so those would be the the big can exp and the kind of extent in the area of the planting like we were talking about the north side so y it's all on the North side yeah yeah you show that oh yeah I will comment we want as much privacy I justen anything out Mike hey Mike I want to make a comment from the start of this project knowing the property and where the house sat we want as much privacy as possible and we know when we walked the woods with Mike and Joe and they educated us on how much black locusts and Norway mples were on that property when you take them all out it is going to open up but we want to as quickly as possible replant the list that Mike just went over because we want privacy we don't want that north side of our property to be completely exposed to Beach Street like we actually want to live back there and we don't want any of our living space to be seen by Beach Street we actually think eventually that North Side will be a big enhancement to what you see today today you see the house that sits on the cliff and you see a Pottery Barn in the woods that's falling AP and I actually think that elevation is going to look beautiful but you're seeing an elevation without trees so I I get your comments but our goal is to put in as many trees as possible we're putting in over 60 they're up to your question about sizes minimum size is 2in caliber so they're all going to be 15 20 inches 20 feet tall when they go in there's going to be varying Heights because forests are varied Heights we don't want them all the same height um and um again it's along that whole North Side so that's the whole intent it says they'll be irrigated for one full growing season or until plant materials established to get a twoyear monitoring yeah we get we get a monitor for two years according to the order conditions we'll probably be doing it for longer Bas program usually a five year program okay what were the conditions that you mentioned I said um the um the lighting lighting and the um protection protection and then do we want um the uh debris that you know any spilled debris on the road on the public roads should be public road should be maintained you know right and then uh site construction hour should comply with the town bylaw you just uh reiterate that because I don't think you want any being a residential district any variation from you could ask about storm water um and what of the general permit right um so that um Mark you want to just take that because you asked Chuck um I did get a response I can pull sh do you have it but again it this was file prior to meeting so I think you said that the trigger the main triggers are 20,000 square feet or more of disturbance we're changing the existing grade by more than two feet which of course it is um the intent is if it does not trigger an noi which this does or a special permit of the planning board then um D DP DPW would do a storm water permit so we already have an noi and so the idea is that the erosion control and other requirements from the storm rer rules are included in the noi so the con comp's got to cover and the other thing that I had wondered about was the flood plane but at least the mar indicated that it was not in flood plane and I looked at flood plane maps and it's the flood plane storm water management a special permit of planning board um it's we remember it's been changed to the DPW if there's not if it's not a um if it's not in front of the planning board already for a special permit and it's would need to do a special permit for storm one no no I don't think that's no I think it's if it's not a special permit in front of the planning board where storm water gets reviewed by this board or a notice of intent whereby it gets reviewed by the Conservation Commission then it's administrative I believe it's not regul it's not running off to an m to a separated storm suer um I think that's really the applicability right see I'm reading the old one because this application came in so if it's um land disturbance that's equal to or greater than one acre this is less than an acre this is less than an acre of disturbance activities or land uses that would require special Department from the planning board shall not be required to obtain an independent special permit under this article I think that it does not apply the and I'm reading the old one because this permit came in prior to uh was file prior prior town meeting okay so I'm referencing the new one which says if it's the if it's already a special permit in front of the planning board you need the planning board does the special permit for storm BL correct so okay so this came in this came in before town meeting okay but few okay um would uh I guess I'll move to close the public hearing thank you um do I have a second second all in favor hi um okay um I'll take them uh any other discussion NOP um uh do have a motion to uh accept the um to Grant the special permit under Section um 6 uh four Earth REM and filling with the conditions as discussed are we going to see those the conditions we're um so maybe we can should we can we do the draft conditions next time and get a actual written version you can but then um we shouldn't vote tonight we should yeah so we don't me for another mon you can I mean these are the conditions you had talked about no up lighting all exterior lighting sh'll be dark site compliant tree protection um shall be in place in particular the northeast corner where the relocated pathway is to be constructed we just call that a critical root Zone can you put those words in there uh site construction will comply with the town um site construction hours shall comply with the town bylaw um dirt mud and other debris shall be kept off of Rock Street Rock isn't that a regulation already put it in them we did that on something we did okay I just didn't know if there were other things we were leing I guess the other thing I would just um do we want to ask that staging of you know of trucks be done like s Beach Park you know I guess it depends on the season the building really dep pretty the number of vehicles I mean it'll be more daily construction pickups and stuff but that's a long driveway so room on the driveway yes okay um all right I'm comfortable with having moving this along I'll make that motion okay thank you Chris is making the motion to approve the specials permit under uh six points or with those following conditions Peter second it um and I will review them more and I Willie them is before I sign them um for any Tye POS and so forth um any other discussion um uh I'll take a roll call vote Laura Tenny yes Chris ly yes St filb yes Peter Morton yes Mary Foley I can't vote okay um and uh Gordon Brewster yes and the chair votes yes great um thank you um why don't you just comment to them I want to congratulate them and everybody who work for their committees that they have the because I've never seen a better job comparing to what we're dealing with with the who got that property behind us and we are great thank you always nice to hear good comments okay thank you all right um thank you all right we will see you won't see you next you gonna miss us no I won't see you next is this it is this Mark's last reading well on these two things okay um yeah um I know that in our packets there was a uh not this for 7 Central Street Mark um I believe that was in error right the dates on that in error we are taking that up on January 13th 13th that's correct uh they filed it too late to be on this meeting's agenda and uh because of the hearing notice requirements and then at the last meeting we weren't going to be able to have a quum at the end of this month so yeah okay um I given that um Zo repres oh it was not advertised um before I forget if we could have paper plants yes so that I'm not looking at that one um the way I was looking at this one on my computer it would really help what we've done in the past is on Thursdays that people can pick them up in the planning board box downstairs so you don't have to try to run them around we can come pick them up and and you could if people know the police can let you in if you come on a Friday um and the town hall is closed or you can ask one of somebody pick them up for you or um you can get in on um and pick them up in the box but yes I agree that would it's just too small I'm too old and it takes a while to load yeah and it yeah it's really hard thank you um but uh John do you want to just say anything about the seven C since you're here um johnk you John Harden School Street also with and yes uh I am a month early for the hearing I do realize um I'm we are my my client is um are Edward and Arthur Lumia I believe um Jonathan from their offices also on Zoom perhaps um any case uh I know um the application has been submitted and I met some of you all on site on Monday um thank you for coming so early in in the process to see the site um and I think my presence here is really just to show how how excited my client is for this project in some ways this is pretty exciting for the town because it's um even though it's not in the 3A District um perhaps it should be but I I won't I won't go there um it does represent in some ways what the 3A was all about and trying to do some small development that is appropriate in our town um it's a project that proposes three units um in the existing Seven Central property um it's as you know it has has been a a restaurant off and on for a long time it's going to uh still be a cafe in front but we are proposing three units two in the back and then one up above the cafe in the front um since this isn't a public meeting I won't go into any more detail I just wondered if you had any questions from the S sidewalk or if there's anything else that that we could do to better prepare you guys for the meeting January so I have a question yes are you concerned about the flood plane in back of the building so we are in this in the sense that it clearly is and has flooded in the past all of the work for um all all of the space that would be in the units and also in the cafe will be up on the first floor level the only space that would be down below would be storage and perhaps some mechanical space that that would have to be there but in terms of living space it will all be above on that first floor and is there sufficient parking for attendance so according to to our ordinance uh calls for um for five parking spots for three units um it's kind of a quirky area back there as you all know having having back back there um there is space for for five um spaces what we proposed in our drawing and and laid out is pretty simple one space is allocated per unit which one might argue is perhaps appropriate for housing in the center of town so close to uh Transit uh also so close actually to the public parking which is really just across the street and behind this this building um it it also takes into account a couple of spaces that are shown as piggyback spaces but our uh concept there was that if people who worked in the restaurant could use those they could be coordinated in a way if someone had had to move not ideal but there's also nothing in our ordinance that prevents piggy back parking um if they are it makes sense in a way if they're assigned to the same unit um or for the same purpose which was how we were thinking about that um there is some additional space uh it's really not in the the property but there is a Zone behind the building um that is public way or or there there is a right of way so there is space there also for an additional parking spot it's really not on our property so I can't draw it as as a spot in addition to that the um our client also owns the building to the right and the building to the left and so there is um also in our ordinance it allows the ability to accommodate parking in in lots that are close by um so that is also a possibility that that the we could look at for that fifth spot what's what John what's the intended size of the commercial space I turn of square feet um I'm not sure I have that and my fingertips I wasn't quite prepared to talk about that it's it's approximately if you've been into the old just the bar you yeah it's the bar and the and where the seating was to to the left of the front entry but if you looked at the building the footprint of the oldest part right yeah which has a gamber roof that would be the cafe then pushing back a little bit on the left towards the the rear where where there's a bit more more space for for some seating um the folks who came to see the building also I'm sure noticed it's really old the existing framing is all still in the building some really cool um you know existing Timbers both as posts and beams not all of them are in great shape um something that that my client uh has always taken great pride in is sort of in some ways rebuilding from the inside a lot of these buildings if you know um nine Ashland uh that was essentially rebuild from the inside out um and sometimes that's just a better solution it can then be building that might last another 100 years another 200 years right um so we're going to look very carefully at the structure of it but but to answer your question the oldest part really that front piece is the footprint of the cafe so if you didn't go go there um we can either arrange a second walk which might be useful in January but also you can just walk down by the fire station and along the um back side the backside there it's that is the public right of appears to be a public RightWay anyway there's a um Transformer there and it's very obvious that there is the parking spaces are marked one two3 in front of the under the deck that's correct and then that you can see on the left by the their dumpster some sort of there that you know four and five are right there and that's really our jurisdiction and there is a slight increase in square footage too which is triggers the um the special permit review so it's the chain it's the four units so we were I was trying to figure out it's essentially four units it's the one commercial and three residential that in a general in the General District triggers the special permit that's right it's it's note five under the table of of uses which permits this under a special permit both the the four units but also adding volume to the existing structure and we we think we're being kind of clever here in how we're adding volume there's a there's a very small space on the second floor that's actually internal it's not visible from the back it's not visible from the front there's actually a space in between the old building and the newer part um that's kind of it's flat roof it's a little odd but that's that's how it was built we're we're proposing just filling in a corner of that area in order to create enough room for a second bedroom to one of the units so that's the added volume go ahead I had one question kind of relative to that capturing a little volume which is on the first floor second sorry front side second floor unit yes and we walked up the exterior stair to that unit yes and um you don't need to have an answer now but in the when we meet again I'm just wondering if that's the only access and egress from that apartment is there a way that you could recapture a little bit of volume on the backside to make an either an interior stair or an enclosed stair service that apartment that's an interesting question we we could look at that yeah um so to her point the the only access to the unit that would be above the cafe is currently in next year stair it it exists it's not the Great shape it's not terribly bad some some things the building are in worse shape um uh the trick would be to see where that stair would start comes down yeah yeah but we could you could look yeah maybe if you could give that some thought before we meet I think that would be um that would be a better safer access to that second floor unit yeah one trick tricky thing about that building the second floor above the cafe is different from the second floor level of course yeah at the back yeah of course it is need to see this okay I'm gonna um save the rest of this discussion for um next month that we'll welcome you back and um thanks for the preview definitely just walk back there it's pretty obvious what I think what um back there so do do take some time to go there thank you for being open to let me do this great it's nice to see you thank you um great [Music] uh just um leaon um any liaison reports from any of our ones okay um correspondence we received um something from the town of aex several public hearing notices and was it came at Elizabeth Thomas sent us something essentially right two minutes before the our last acknowled didn't mention yeah okay just want to make sure we don't um let's see okay um so uh can I ask one Qui question about the correspondence regarding Asics why because we're in a budding town we get notified okay all right we and we have to notify them yeah thank you I'm just GNA jump do you guys have some uh business is not on the agenda are you here for a school project or well done can we answer any questions questions in general in general what do we do who are we I'm like how much will it cost well what cost oh question um not our problem the applicant would pay the cost so the town does not pay any costs and the applicant did uh submit a filing fee of 250 yeah so to have the pleasure of talking to us um however sometimes like with the big cell signaling um project that we just finished um the applicant has to pay more um uh pay us a a fee and then we actually hire somebody who reviews The Complex plans on our behalf and the applicant does pay for that review but we still don't pay the the construction case so how do you get on we're elected yeah you run for off are you interested should try I don't know I don't think there is a minimum age probably have to be probably I don't know if it's been you're excellent do you know I don't pound Clark would know for sure and then we are elected for threeyear terms and good luck yeah you'll need signs great excellent come back coming and all our meetings are open and you can watch us on Zoom if you have anything if you have nothing else to do no okay great welcome um so discussion of the um our budget our current uh status and uh particularly what we want to do going forward in 20125 particularly in advance uh of April town meeting which is coming right up so let's start with the budget so um your budget what I've done for this year because uh changing how we operate um for planning zoning and conservation we've combined uh that into one land use Department um so that we have salaries we have my salary we have the conservation Agent salary and we have a uh uh which is Shannon acknowledge Shannon here in the flesh for the first time yeah if you haven't met him this is your admin person moving forward Shon so um and then we have our so that's standard uh we just combined those salaries together uh and then we have expenses and again what I've done is I've combined our our expenses from the three boards pretty much they're very similar line items you know everything from uh legal well legal is in here but Professional Services telephone postage printing travel dues that kind of thing um office equipment so I've combined them and then I've proposed to increase a few of them just based on now we're running a real larger Department with more tasks so um so there's some slight increases there uh so what I have retained for the planning board is Professional Services we had 25,000 in there last year uh we are going to be using some of that to pay Emily's Services which you did vote for last spring um and uh the balance will go back to the general fund but we're proposing obvious to appropriate an additional 25,000 for next year as well to be used for studies and other tasks as necessary and how much of this past years was used uh so we had a grant through this the town and the last bill from Emily was including the um one of the studies yeah so that bill was for about let's say 165 and we had about 13 left in the grant so we're using about 3,000 out of this 25,000 right now and we will probably use another two or 3,000 to have her finish the filings and other expens party what's that yes plus plus the giant party great okay any comments on the budget any yes I just have a question so legal is separate from Professional Services that's correct and did we how much of our legal did we spend or does that is that lump together with the select board yes that's in the select boards it's it's in here but there's no numbers okay for any of the past uh at least four years okay so can you um backtrack when did the budgets combin uh for this for next year they'll combine for next year so did fincom discuss this I haven't heard that yet uh I not sure whether fincom but I discussed it with the chairs of the three boards as well as concom and now planning board Greg do you have any comment about when the fincom has or will review maybe if you're he is yeah we haven't haven't set that schedule yet it'll be sometime late January early February okay great um and then so you're currently the conservation agent no so we have a part-time conservation agent um who started what a few weeks ago I mean I was filling in doing what I can but I am not a trained conservation agent okay so they hired somebody yes but we have we have hired somebody okay now I was just was hearing that you were the replacement conservation agent so I was going to ask how that worked in the temporary another Super temporary okay great uh thank you any any other budget thing we should focus do you needing action from us Greg or Mark no okay great thank you nice to get an update um then uh Uh current status um one of the things that I just got today was a request for doing the annual report so I will put together a draft and share it out with every try to share it out work and I'll put together a draft and share it out and comments um that's for the that's due in mid January um but I think the chair usually does it for the board um okay count case there uh well this is the um list of topics if people didn't have it with them I I can read that one but if someone wanted just to have it in front of you okay um so I I put together this list of possible topics to um kind of for this Springs fault the town meeting and perhaps the as well and then and Beyond Mark is it a different list than what's in the folder no no it's the same same one I just didn't know who it um so I tried to put the things that were most I felt was most important or kind of essential to uh discuss um under spring of town meeting and that's a like six or seven items so um so one is uh so we've discussed some some of these before one is the accessory dwelling unit in order to update uh the rules that we have to comply with the state statute so one thing is in addition to the changes they made to 3A requiring accessory dwelling units by right they are also adopting uh regulations through eohc for these and they were just released on Friday so I have not looked at them they're draft right yes it's a draft kind of thing me fine fine they're fine okay I mean overall they're fine so so whatever we put together we'll have to we'll have to make sure they're they're they comply with both of the items um so uh we will do that one thing that keeps coming up as it relates to that is short-term rentals and we'll have to uh look at um how how how we we're allowed to regulate that under the excess reiling unit bylaw and we are but again we have to look to make sure we can we do it correctly so I have a question on that can the select board just make changes to what they want to propose teral at next town meeting we discussed it various members of the select board had concerns about commercial ownership of short-term rentals ownership of of rental property in general um there was a feeling that our current short-term rental bylaw um is restricted to very short period of time and and that in fact the state allows you to consider short-term rental up to about a month and that perhaps our bylaw should event should reflect that rather they then restricting itself to less than a week um there was strong feeling on the part of the select board that adus should not be allowed to be short-term rentals that the purpose of them is to increase the amount of hous um the thought of the board was that it would be a good idea to put together a small group three people probably from the planning board the zba and the select board to consider this and come up with something that we could pass at the uh um at the c meeting in April that would prevent people from turning adus into short-term rentals and therefore for grandfathering them and that perhaps the larger questions around um adus and short-term rentals needed a little more thought than was going to be available between now and March so um the select board would like to see um someone from the planning board first the planning board's endorsement of a small group to focus on this rather than putting it on your already busy agendas um and and second um if if you agree that that's an approach um you should think about which member would like to be involved in that we do I'm sorry so would we do shortterm by Law changes and Adu at the same town this would be a short a my feeling at the moment the idea is that the group would decide but in order to get something together um in a couple of months three months um that it might be wise just to consider the intersection of Adu and short-term rental and um then have a plan um for something for the fall town meeting um that would elaborate on that and and deal with wider concerns but we have to make well are I sent around a um think a seminar that I think tomorrow and next Monday on adus I'm going to try to go to that we do next Monday um and so then we'll be better informed about eight or adus or I will anyway or hopefully that's the first thing and then um presumably our existing Adu bylaw does not comply with the new no um statute so um it probably just needs to be deleted and we it seems to me it makes sense to do them at the same time it's not that complicated um right so it's it's just deleting but well if you want to advance it so that you can have larger adus or adus in different areas that I think that's my my concern is is well we're currently exposed right so we're AB we need to abide by the state Adu bylaw will come February um and that's for the 900 square feet in single family districts and so are you proposing that you want it Beyond single family districts and larger than 900s I am proposing that we for April consider only limiting the use of adus to Residents and that we take on the larger questions of what what we want we obviously have to follow the state law and do we want something beyond that I think is is a larger question oh had be deferred I my personal opinion on that one not that anybody cares but um I think that we would be exposed for a long time if we waited till the next fall meeting exposing what way um because we can put restrictions on that the state hasn't um with um um like height and and and things like that so I think if and short-term rentals Etc so I I think if if we're going to go down that path anyway we should do it sooner rather than waiting for two Town meetings that's my personal so you're suggesting that we take up the the totality of the Adu issue in addition to the short-term rental prohibition that would be my suggestion I mean again the Adu isn't all that complex it's you know we've drafted it many times and put it on the shelf so with the state pretty much dictating what they want um and then we can just put further restrictions on it or additions but um I mean I can agree that you ought to have something in place for adus that at a bare minimum matches what the state law allows and then you can put your restrictions on for the uh short-term rentals in within that however you feel it should be crafted um so it kind of also timeses up with the the general bylaw on adus any changes to that so they kind of blend and then like uh in was saying is that if you want to allow larger agus or in other districts or um in other types of buildings that may not be covered by the by law that's for a longer discussion because we have Beyond Town Meeting In other words let's get pass review and pass what we need to in order to adjust our bylaw and comply and then we can disc because we have a number of other things that we need to work on for the springtime as well um can I'm just going to stop here and clarify for our guests that adus are accessory dwelling units which are um uh like small apartments in a in a existing dwelling an existing building like a for your grandmother or something like that well it could be detached with it can also be detached right so um but Adu means accessory dwelling in it um uh so I um I agree we should do something by April and um I think it's worth trying to just get a final product age because things are going to keep coming up it's not that complicated um there are some towns have already um I I did do a seminar today I don't know if anyone else did the mapc I mean the hlc's will be much more on point but still it it isn't that difficult um and the additional factors for our town to consider I mean it's a small list it's thought do you know do we want to go bigger do we want some places to be able to have two I think I know the answer to both those things already but but it's a pretty short list of sort of additional things that we would be considering and drafting it I think so I think it's a great idea having worked on this for a couple of years even the simplest decisions can be very controversial really so let what I would I agree that we should try to get a final try absolutely and um if the select board and the zba and and wants to work together that seems like a good idea um and I would suggest that um at our next meeting we have a um a just a working discussion about adus U make sure everybody knows what the state law is um what the the list of issues are that have some uh wiggle room in and talk through our intent we sometimes start have started with a draft bylaw and then we get stuck because we get in minutia but I I'd like to suggest that on this topic we start with sort of a consensus yes no on each of the um various approaches and then try to boil it down and then hand it off to Jonathan and Michelle to or and Mark to to write it to get an outcome that is uh that meets that consensus it may not please everybody but and we advance advance it um and I I think there is agreement could be wrong but I I suspect that there is agreement that adus are for um housing not for short-term rentals um I think we can have a disc discussion about that make sure that my uh assessment is correct but it sounds to me that's what the select board consensus is um very and I know Sarah melish has articulated that a number of times so um seems to me there's agreement on that point it's the rest of it that worries me with the deadline of April of March let's give it a shot and see where we are and how much consensus we have and that we could also break it into two they could be two articles one is prohibition of adus for exess for um short-term rental and then a sec separate one that makes the other changes on some of these other parameters they could be for the purposes of getting the short-term rental issue P that could be one section and then it could be as Sue says the finished product so okay well let's um let's go through the rest of Mark's list we don't to solve the Adu question right now um it' be nice to solve it soon because right but we don't have to we're not GNA to um so you want a person that will start working on it is that what you're looking for between now and I'm not I'm I'm not looking for anything now in January but I would like to start sorry I'm talking here as politician I I like to put things in front of town meeting that I think will pass um I don't like to put things in front of town meeting that people haven't had a chance to hear about and think about um and I don't like going to town meeting with the boards divided on a POS on a on a position and that's but I agree that your board has to agree on at least the direction so or have consensus we don't open okay one thing we could do is you know make it more public than just here's our agenda for the next planning board meeting but you know make it clear to the residents hey this this next planning board meeting we're going to be talking about this new ad law I mean not words and why would we just use the template that you created for 3A for communication I mean it's it worked beautifully I mean people are 18 months no I know but no but I think I think you got it to the point where where residents are aware now of where information lives and you know I I I think we can we can do some of the things not all the things but we can do some of the things I can we can create something for planning boards upcoming zoning changes for Springtown meeting and have a a section where list all of those items as we work through them because I mean we're still only talking about the first item and we have like probably six things that you're going to all or five of them that you're going to agree are important that we probably should try and do for Springtown meeting so you're going to a want the publicity that people will know about it and be um you know uh we yeah and we have stoed it and some of it's also important just like the adus some of it maybe you can pass but the next one's also very important which is the uh flood plane bylaw they're going to be releasing new regulation uh a model regulations as well as new maps fairly soon they haven't done either yet once they do we're going to have a again just a few months uh in order to make any tweaks to it we can't probably do very much kind of like the storm water bylaw that was a model bylaw um but we will do what we need to do publicize it and hopefully move it forward so people can continue to get flood insurance is there a um way to do the flood um bylaw like like we did with the um storm water where the um authority to write regulations is given to planning board and that so that we don't have to go to town meeting every time they change or does it have to be in I don't I don't think it's a bylaw like that it's more bylaw to comply with the insurance rules I mean I think when we when they releasee the model we'll know for sure but most usually it's you adopt a specific bylaw and you don't there's no need to adopt additional regulations okay because there's building code regulations because really relates to building so if you're building in these various zones you need to the first floor Elevate um uh um you know you utilities and other types of like heating systems and other things out of the flood zone to minimize damage you know again it depends on on where you are so I don't think towns really write additional regulations okay yeah it's all scripted can I ask a question on that um does there need to be a comment period for the new maps coming out uh that's usually they have common periods when they release those and often times they they become quite controversial I know when I was in another Community they released them and it was a big to-do and they um didn't officially release them and waited another year or two before they did so um so I don't know what's going to happen when they release them for this area so yeah so the reason I ask is just that we have to buffer that into the schedule um yeah that I know the hearings around could I suggest that a subgroup like an suggest for the Adu be be put together to work on the FL well I I think that we're not going to have that many I don't anticipate any new applications you're going to have one in January 13th you just finished another one and we finish CST so I would rather have this group in order rather than have little groups this is what my observation was before when I first got here is had individual members or two members working on something and then not everyone's aware of kind of the the the the steps and the progress and understanding each of the elements so I would prefer to have us have work sessions for our meetings and you know if it takes two or three hours to get to review our list of five things or whatever it is to go through the drafts why don't we keep instead of worrying about the process right now let's why don't we keep so we understand the list and then we can come back to process so flood plane we understand that zoning introduction haven't we Rewritten that already isn't that done so The Zing introduction was Rewritten when you did the recodification but there's a couple problems with it first off it just it reiterates the law so if the Law changes now you're introduction is wrong and that was what happened with pra under your introduction it says you have to have a 2third vote well actually that's wrong now so at the very least that needs to get removed but there's a lot of other things in the law and I don't really think you know zoning needs big long introduction can you or C and H do that one yeah I think we can draft some it doesn't seem like it's terribly controversial no no but it's again it's something that should be at at a minimum adjusted so what don't we okay said I wasn't going to talk about process sorry okay D2 zoning clarification so so the D2 zone is this um Zone that runs up Pine Street and AC cross what down school I believe and it's uh so the way it currently is maybe not how it used to be but it's currently an undefined Zone it's shown on a map but the map has no Dimensions um whether it goes 100 feet back from the edge of the RightWay the center line of the road um also there's no written description uh and then is it an overlay District or is it an underlying District so that needs to be clarified and so um we need to do is look back at what it was and decide whether we want to fix it or as somebody that was what someone else suggested was to remove it in its entirety well just combine D1 and D2 as a d District uh okay I haven't looked at what the differen are between the various D2 requires a special permit and D1 does not um for for two family for two family um might be controversial to just wipe that slate clean um so are you saying in the recodification the definition because it it was defined in our own old bylaws the 100 feet Westerly the easterly the this the that um yeah so that's so that could be put either put back in get put back in put back in slightly differently or or just get rid of the entire T2 D2 Zone but the question is is that in and of itself going to be controversial because they're all these people who live around here who along those streets in particular who well I mean the the other EXT other way is you could take that new D district and make the conversion of one family into two family a speal a um special permit you could go instead of instead of getting uh more so so the point is we need to have a conversation about what we want okay and just and I know we don't want to get down in details but what triggered this for special town or for you know special town meeting was that um it has to address what's the underlying District in that it's not just defining D2 it's what's the yeah is D2 an overlay or is it an underline District so we need to clarify that as well as the dimensions of the district can I just ask one more question because I obviously was not here when D2 was um cified what was the intent of D2 I can answer that I wasn't here either but I research on it um and I have all the micro Beach practically um but it was intended that it was going to create in-law apartments um and the kids moving home you know all the things that people still vote today of of happening um that was its intent so it was to um change single family to multifam not multi two two it was taking a section of town and saying yeah the you know we want to allow you know the age in place kids moving home parents move on this side kids live on the other side that was the intent I think I think what happened was there's the D District which allowed two family by right okay then somebody as Mary pointed out well it'd be great to extend that along Pleasant Street and along Pine Street to allow those houses to become two family but then people said well we can't do that by right so let's just do that by special permit so the D1 and the D2 were created but the D2 was well D well D1 they were separated out of the D so d d was just D and then it became D1 yes exactly D2 came into existence exactly D2 was it was a new option to an area that had only been single family before I believe I don't quote me on that but that's what I believe it was and that's why the overlay versus underlying because D2 sits inside D1 no so D2 is sitting on usually District B and Su of a some of G that's G sure so sounds simple most of the Lots yeah are not just in one District Two districts and that gets back to the right okay thank you um the next one isn't a zoning change but it is something that we should do and so maybe it's may not have a long discussion but it is um our fees for rules and rigs um so for example filing fee for a special permit like we had tonight file the same filing fee that CST did for a special permit so um fees are supposed to represent kind of the cost of doing business for the town um you know the extra review extra studies that that need to get reviewed or or paid for by the applicant is outside of that so typically this sort of scale for project particularly for like say plan view based on um the size of the project whether it's by eight bridge or or something along those lines so um I'm going to try and sneak those in somehow it hopefully shouldn't be a big so we don't need to go to town meeting for that we don't need to go to town meeting but something Mark you must have examples of that from previous plac right yeah but I but I I think um it would be nice to update them in particular for special prits and site PL so we've worked pretty hard on redoing the regulations in general and I don't know how far more much more work it is to do but there are drafts available that maybe we should all take a look at and and Implement well I don't know that we've ever officially adopted the rules regulations no we haven't well that's not we have adopted some of them there I would say that we they were a bit of a mess remember there was the restating of all of the the statue and so I would I'm not sure there may be I would not want to get into redoing your rules and rigs I'm just saying your fees let's start with fees right now just so in case we do get some larger applications that do require staff time we don't object to doing fees but I don't think we need to the other we want to think about is the ch fees for these chod and the site plan review for the CH so that should be included in yeah so can you just draft something and and so Mark aren't some of the fees in the bylaws don't they have to match what's in the bylaw well now usually bylaws I don't know whether in the zoning there's any specific fees uh most of our fees are actually in are your your um no your subdivision rules and rigs are part of your theves are part of your planing board rules and rs the fees in there that's I believe where your fees are so it's I'm just looking at 12.4.4 which is uh the planning board May adopt reasonable administrative fees and Technical review fees for applications for special permits and side plan review as specified in general law 48 blah blah blah right um so sounds like we change I think there used to be specific P I think we changed it to that language so would that's good we don't have to make that change so I think if you can draft the Fe schedule fee schedule and make a recommendation then let's get it on get it on a calendar and do it yeah so can so you mentioned this but um so our subdivision rules and rs one question how of should those be updated too I think we have a lot of junk in them that was adopted into other things so that needs a big overhaul I'm sure I'm sure they do but I think given the um level subdivision plans being submitted and all the other tasks that we have to do I they we can add that to 2020 six and beond but I mean you you are correct that that they they probably should be be written at least cleaned up so then the other thing um was I I just put down a catch all for other cleanup zoning clear up or clarifications from the recodification so if there are other things that people know that got dropped that are confusing because of the they weren't picked up when they rewrote certain sections or even just a paragraph We should put the list together there was there's a long list I actually have a long list um elsewhere but I think there are two one which is probably a hot potato and one which I think is easy the the easy one I that I'd like to see us do is um alternates for special permits and I was trying to look to see if if we the if this if the uh chapter 48 allows us to do alternates for site plan review as well well so but um we can explain that so we no so I've adopted it both ways in different communities and so um the legal advice given to the last town I was in was that it's only you can only do it for special permits in the past though in Foxboro I did it for all planning board items because you're not restricted but the state law says you can only do it for special permits so it just allows you to do it so you can still authorize yourself to do it for other things so yeah my rationale here is if we think about the site the cell signaling had they not been willing to restart um they would have been constructively approved because we Ron Christine retired Ron West and uh Jo and who uh Gordon Peter yeah so um you know and if somebody misses one I can't remember the deal the situation but anyway you need a super majority the other thing is with um we need to be ready for these uh um for the multif family side plan review we have to to do it in a timely way and again if they have um if we have an couple of these things in a row um and you know somebody's sick or has to leave the board for some reason I think having alternates again we have drafted that um already so just prepare it's pretty simple I think the the issue that we stumbled over was the appointing process that was got stuck so what's the what's the other issue oh the other uh the other issue is section seven the um non nonconforming uses is um I think we need to just have some attorney tell us if it it's not Mark Broski that um because it's super confusing okay this is the um so this is just what had before yeah we didn't ever change it okay so this isn't a cleanup yeah this is this is it never got changed but we didn't have that's your very old version that stayed the same this is yeah this is the same section seven but I think the issue is the um when a um non-conforming use is changed to another use not another non-performing use and is and it's less detrimental to the neighborhood law says that it can be Advanced and this says I'm not sure what this says I think it says it can be too but I think it says it can be too but it's I just think it be worth it to have unconforming structure not use correct um so I think that's a pretty simple like maybe we should have KP law look at it because that did come up and it was a big uh potential vulnerability for the town I think um so that one to me is just maybe we just have K KP law make a recommendation to us um and uh and I think it was brought to town meeting probably like five years ago and we before I was yeah I think Gary Gilbert tried to bring it um okay so um and alternates not sure the section 7 is urgent enough to rise to the April town meeting level no I think alternates I I to me it's Nob brainer but um that's just me um so there's no other clarifications for you can bring up I'll look up the yeah you can bring up other issues at the next meeting you have time um is uh Underside plane review the only the way it's applied here is a little odd because you basically it's applied if you are um going to need more than five new parking spaces so if you're tearing down a building or building something new and it doesn't need more than five then it doesn't apply so that's kind of odd um so generally it's it's uh based on a certain square footage of either land alteration or the size of a new building so let's say uh 15500 square foot commercial building or multi family dwelling um are usually some sort of minimum commercial size and usually multi family buildings which is and more um in a lot of towns are what kicks off site plan review um so I I would recommend that we look at changing that as well so I so those are those are the the ones that are on this list did you with the last we discuss the design Review Committee we did um he's asked Greg to um put it in in the paper for people who are interested great okay so um and so then we have um so there's there's just there's one other one that kind of came up as a little bit of a discussion and I know it's going to um and I'm I'm going to be talking with the downtown Improvement committee about it because um came up Friday um about maybe doing even though we're we've talked about and I've talked about the downtown Improvement committee and several other boards about doing a comprehensive look at the General District everything from uh Street Scapes to zoning to the district boundaries um uh in our general district is quite large it runs all the way from F yards all the way up acoss downtown Summer Street into some residential neighborhoods um look at there another piece way down by Magnolia there small piece and there so um is uh there was a bit of a kind of plary discussion about well should we do something for a mixed like a a small overlay mixed use district for the downtown area for now until such time as we get funding to do a um bigger study of the General District because that study would take a long long time and uh and um in order to kind of uh preserve some of the commercial property and and uh enhance the kind of the storefront and um still allow some residential and some some manner um so um so I just wanted to kind of toss that out there because that may or may not be something that we we we would want to discuss from a purely putting something together it's not that difficult create an overlay District map using the gis like we did for the thing writing the rules for an overlay district is not particularly difficult you can refer to the design Review Committee that's in the Chad for building review and building design um so procedure would be site plan review so again we we we have many of the steps in place it's just um is that something that if there's enough support do we want to kind of jump started um a little bit U you know and again it may may or may not be some reasons to do it so moving forward I think it's a good idea how is it different than what's currently there so right now if someone wants to take the building let's say the Bank building and knock it down and build uh a couple residential units they can so you lose the commercial property um the other thing is then what from a purely a downtown improvements perspective you want to do something to knit the two little commercial sces we have together and not lose another piece in the middle so if the Bank building gets knocked down and residential goes in and they sell two condos there at $2 million that's the way it's going to be forever that's not going to change so now you've lost the ability to make that connection between the commercial out front of town hall and the commercial then yeah and then it isolates the the build businesses that are on the ends of that right connection yeah so so um and there are a few other properties where that possibly could happen so um I think uh at least uh having those discussions and putting something together whether we bring it forward or not is is um is might be because I in in all the it was something that was discussed um during our MBTA and we purposely kept the MBTA out because we weren't able to require first floor commercial and um and so it became a topic of discussion which is why we pulled it out and um it's it's not from a crafting zoning it's not a particularly difficult task and if we just took a core SE of the downtown let's say from the gas station up to Seaside one you know or Pine Street just prot the core area I think it would be something that U many people if not most people would be supportive of hey Mark this is Gordon what would it take to move this forward uh well this board you know and and uh putting a proposal together and reviewing it and uh working um uh with the downtown Improvement committee as well um I think they should be involved in the historic district Commission because portions of the downtown are uh within the district commission but I think it ought to be led by the board um or so I'm gonna now talk a little bit about process rather than having small groups I'm going to suggest that Mark and I put together a calendar that's that says we're going to Workshop these issues to see if we have consensus about the direction and if we have consensus about the direction on some of these the downtown the adus alternates and um sounds like we're waiting for flood plane for somebody else to tell us what the model is but maybe those three we kind a workshop at our next meeting I can sort of you know lead us through with sort of some white paper and say do we have consensus on these are the big issues and then have rather than us trying to as we did when Sue was here the board kind of took the lead on language I think we have Mark and we have Town Council who can take our intent and put it into um a bylaw and then we can review it and decide if we're going to bring it forward and hopefully be um a little bit more streamlined as a process I like that a lot for process I think um it sounds much more efficient and maybe we could you know we could know sooner are we all kind of pulling in the same direction or do we need to course correct and make some adjustment together and talk that through I think that's great um and I also think we'd get more consistency of language and intent if kind of one person with you know subject matter expert is writing it I found it really difficult and just downright unproductive at times to be trying to write zoning language together um from you know starting from some zero basically so right and I will say I was when I when you first started talking about the downtown plan and resoning I thought you know seems interesting but it's soon as you sort of put it in those St terms about you could really Hollow things out here I think that sounds you know urgent and we should be taking a look at that uh we need critical mass in our commercial Zone mhm no just as a clarifying question on the flood plane bylaw the model 2024 still holds right they're just getting we're just getting new maps they're not the state isn't issuing a new model bylaw I don't know okay I think it's just still the model 2024 and it's just the maps that we were waiting on yeah so is the model byw um just something we adopt yeah we tweak it like there's so you know we need to designate who's going to be the flood plane administrator and we need to say um there's certain things there's like you know maybe a half dozen that get um the word that gets where we have we have customized for Manchester but yet it the model bylaws right out on the state at the last Workshop I attended it sounded like they're going to reissue maybe tweak it a little bit there may be some additional changes I'm not entirely sure but they they were like well we're going to be re-releasing the actual bylaw so and then to an's earlier point about being successful at town meeting if I think if there if there's a zoning bylaw that the state has that's a model bylaw around a complicated subject I think the town is generally um willing to say and this helps people get flood insurance um that seems to be important and relatively easy to be successful at town meeting I think the personally and we hav't Workshop you know had consensus but I think that the Adu uh um being for residents not for short-term rentals seems pretty straightforward and um I think the commercial one seems to me to be pretty straightforward to but I might be surprised on that one um so okay I think we can be ask one other question about um 3A and What needs to is there anything that needs to be done to prepare for that well I think uh uh one is getting our design Review Committee appointed so because that's an important part so we still have they're required to file suppos to site plan review obviously if we can adjust our fees that would be helpful because just the staff time to administer stuff is more than what we currently charge um and then um and really and and that's all we need to prepare because um there's the design review for the building there's the site plan review with the planning board where by you both the site and the design and then you move it and move it forward with the with you know without extra conditions so it has it been sent to the E it is uh has not been sent to eohc hopefully by the end of the week um it be sent um so what about the attorney general uh clerk s it to clerk I reviewed kind of the checklist with her today so so there's nothing in this urgent group here that we need to appoint the site the uh the design design yeah all right so it sounds like number one on 20206 and Beyond is moving up to oh sorry that's not what you were just talking about the thing you were just talking so that would be just a mixed use mixed use o overlay District mixed use overlay District right in other words the if we did the downtown Conference of plan and resoning a small piece of that that would be the mixed juice over the district you know and but I think given the fact that that only we're going to be trying to apply for a grant to do that um which means it would be a 2026 project starting in janary of 2026 wouldn't be adopting changes for another year or you know maybe some Zone first it depends how you organize um that project so um so that's why I think maybe just jumping ahead a little bit um just so that you don't because I've seen that where towns are happy something's happening but then short term but in the long term they're like yeah you know probably shouldn't allow so um when I'm going to suggest is uh for our next meeting um that uh maybe I'll put a note right in the next meeting or maybe you can put a note in the next meeting folder uh we don't think we have to put the uh zoning the Adu zoning but put in just put a thing reminder review Adu zoning portions of the byw stud so what put it in the meeting folder for January like we're going to have a 2025 meeting folder January whatever it is yeah because I think people will jog us our memory as we prepare for them everybody's really good this is an amazing group everybody reads stuff in advance which is great we'd read more too if we had it just say it yeah so those are H SEC there's a section in table four and then there's what is it 9.2 or 9 whatever that's the one that I think is anyway well we should probably put the state yes all right I don't know if you want to go through the rest of these the only thing I was thinking that we definitely probably should do is we're successful at moving most of these forward for the spring is is for over the summer pick up the senior housing because that is kind of important but I think we should simplify I haven't seen what was talked about before but I think we ought to try and maybe work on this one project um and focus on it and try and get something past even if it's a little simpler and a little less um so that it's not controversial and you kind of you know check cherry pick the low hanging fruit so to speak of things that you think yeah that's we had a subgroup and we had actually identified I think three different people and had s our sort of our next step was to bring them into to talk about some senior housing that had been done in other communities so that we could kind of learn from that which might be a way to start with that if we wanted I'm sure we could go back and the stat what's the status of that is it still where are we going on back here he said okay can't live in the center not they well they should be able to yeah so I I don't know if you want to go through the others or not really I mean I don't think anything on the 2026 and Beyond really floats to the surface given all the other things you have to do in a short time period I did add I think Mary's point to add subdivision rules and rag just it is is it on there yeah rules and rs for plenty of uh well I think subdivision rules and rs should be on that list it update and clarify the sub control by okay sorry I I was looking for sub the first word um I think they're kind of explan explan explanatory and I hope I'm hoping the historic commission is going to deal with the Demolition delay they we had asked them to do that they were going to but um it's kind of been discussed very briefly but I don't know where it's at right now but by the time you meet again I will okay uh Laura uh cluster zoning was in our future parking lot and Beyond the residential cluster that was definitely again we have a draft residential I'll look at the list from before yeah was kind of a know what's going in in the cargo building what the cargo building oh that's perhaps someone was thinking about putting in a couple residential units so and taking that down so that would be another reason um to do this over District but did you because they went in front of the historic commission didn't the co historic is can give them guidance on how to adjust the building um but they can only you know give them guidance and eventually if they bring something forth that they've been told to do they have to make a decision so um and they cannot kind of delve into the zoning aspect of is there a change of use issue well that's that's what um in discussing with Sarah melish she feels that there absolutely even though it's from one permitted use to another um that it uh still requires a special permit but again we haven't really seen concrete plans so um again that's just another reason to to look at this overlay District well probably require a special permit just because of setbacks and non-conforming and everything else yeah I mean I haven't seen what was proposed to the historic commission I was told it wasn't wasn't like a fully designed site plan it was it was a site plan and a concept plan kind of thing and some elevation but um okay um great um any uh we don't have any minutes left right no okay so we are gonna that will help us uh Move Along um next meeting is if we can get those minutes and get read before the and uh I've lost my agenda so um are there any other's your agenda minute public comment thank you any other any public comment um hearing none uh just a question on calendar so it say upcoming meeting January 13th and then does that start that every other week sequence yes ex um Martin Luther King that's so that's the not the so that's an off week yeah um the 13th the 27th uh sometimes we run into President's Day yeah then it's a Tuesday the 10th is that President's Day or is the S no I don't think so following the 17th is President's Day probably yeah yes it is okay okay so the 13th starts the Rhythm that's my question great thank you so we're on Christmas break we are um n denominational break whatever it might be we are a Break um we've got a lot done this year thank you everybody and um i' take a motion to adjourn so moved second all in favor all right Gordon don't get hurt thank you sir thank you I know how it is all right thanks everybody thanks Greg