all right uh good evening everyone everybody this is the uh uh Monday July 22nd planning board meeting welcome um I'll take a roll call vote um Laura Tenny here here miss only here Sarah Cron's here Gordon Brewster here and Mar here great um and we're expect uh Peter put um right um first thing we're going to do is um a a brief um approval not requir everybody's mute please um uh eight Sky top um right um it looks to me like it's a small lot of land Lot B is a applicant here yes hi I'm Tom nice to see everybody um just uh maybe explain for us um what you're uh planning on doing yeah so it's a very small triangular lot labeled Lot B there I'm looking to extend my land for a future pool so it's mostly about the setbacks truthfully and uh the positioning of a future fence so looking to give myself more options on the pool layout and design with uh the acquisition of Lot B okay and your lot is I'm on eight Sky top drive so tax map 39 lot 26 yeah okay only District shown here I think it's a okay up right corner Mark just looking at um eight Sky top um drive and I believe you looked at it and believe it complies with our approval noted yes any discussion from the board comments I make a motion that we endorse the plan toate the subdivision for L um plan of mandated June have to read this whole thing oh plan land tax Ms 39 Lots 23 and 26 at number two and number eight skyop Drive uh dated June 8th prepared by Hawthorne land suring surveying Services Inc got a second second okay any other discussion or questions just yeah I think you said create a subdivision said Endor well Endor the plan not required I'm sorry yes yeah okay um any other discussion um I think we can do this uh we'll do a roll call um yes uh Mary py yes yes C yes abstain Karen Bennett please Mo mute yourself thank you um and and thank you Tom um I'll sign this and it will be available you know the town perk where where do we put this the town Parker in your office okay okay it will be with the um Town um board administator okay great and um that's the myar copy that's being signed is that right it is okay excellent so I can pick that up as soon as sometime this week or do you have a timetable I'll sign it right now lovely okay course okay great thank you thanks so much right Qui um now we're going to continue the public hearing for cell signaling Technologies um and uh I think um we need to open the hearing um motion to open hearing open hearing for second okay uh roll call Su hbr yes Miss yes Gordon roer yes Mary Poley yes and Laura Tenny yes chair votes yes thank you um so I think um we are done with having the presentation found cell signaling and what we thought we would do tonight is just talk through a little bit and formally with the board um the um any conditions we all um thought a little bit about that in advance and Mark um is going to summarize where we are with that we will then take um public hearing a public comment because we haven't had the opportunity to have general public comments um and we are still waiting on the fincom financial a review of the financial material we will have it for the next meeting um I checked with s um yeah S I have a question before we get started yeah is the July 9th U Memo from our consultant the last one we received I just wanted to double check mark yes okay great great thank you um and is Wilson Samson is not with us tonight are they I don't believe so I think um he was on vacation this week great um um so in general I don't take um comments from uh on chat um and uh but there is a question about there can there be a recap um of the presentation and I think the answer is no not tonight but there is it is available on on the town website these meetings have all been recorded and there is a link um to the cell signaling comprehensive special permit application on the town's website if you uh go and type in sell signaling it I think it's on the planning board page so um feel free to to look there um if you have have uh are looking for something in particular um great so um Mark can you want to just um give us a summary of the um conditions that people sent into you or um things that you would recommend for so um special permit status I guess yeah so well I TR a couple things is uh the first thing um was that CS had um requested that there be a special condition related to the hours of operation and so that that started um I I wrote ours of construction shall be from 6:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. uh Monday through Friday um an earlier start time shall be allowed uh to reduce conflict with cars headed to schools um and then uh I don't know what our weekend bylaw says but I wrote 8 to5 on Saturday and I don't know whether we have some towns have a no construction on weekends we have that here I mean given its location it may not be um yeah that that big of an issue so if um the applicant is considering working on Sundays um I think we should um specifically allow it to permit would you be doing some work on Sundays occas some occasionally or regularly or it would only be for a specific outage or utility or something very special that would need to be off our but in general we don't but to have flexibility would be a let's say we're we're doing something in at water and we need to shut down the power or something and do it around the clock uh activity that's usually what happens with the that Time Around the Clock would be outside of the hours you're proposing then that would be coordinated well okay so we need to talk about that one so we could spr something like U of these to be allowed provided you know for special work that requires uninterrupted construction or something very very well placed and maybe in in uh with Advanced consultation with the building inspector yeah notification to that building inspector that just be noticed to could that be noticed to mark yeah that be fine this we're just kind of getting them out there right now we'll fine tune these um okay hours of operations the bylaw says the site safety that's for the actually liing sorry I think it's in general bylaw I think it's in boths actually 6.3.5 6.3.5 says a no notice no um addition of noise pollution between 600 p.m. and 6: a.m. and that operating or Perman operation tools and equipment um meing hours of 6: PM and 6: a.m. the operation of construction devices um shall occur between 8:00 a.m and 6:00 pm including compressors jacking bulldozers cranes in a manner that causes the condition of no East pollution could be avoided now your proposing for C the the general operation of construction believe is uh 6.3.5 2 C and we do prohibit anytime on Sundays or holidays so holidays should probably be included in the Saturday schedule well maybe we might want to be a little more specific I'm not sure we want sure anybody wants to we we can work that out a little bit more more okay great okay um Sue um I gu I would just like to talk about it a little bit you want to take them as they come off sure okay um I know that the s is isolated on the other side of 128 but sound like um boring and drilling um and Blasting does travel across 128 to the neighborhoods you know Mill Street um Forest Lane uh so it it will disturb some people um it's not as if it's it's not something we should think about and I think we should um starting it's 6:30 is one thing but you know on Sunday morning and it's um I'm a little bit concerned about stretching the hours thinking that it's not going to affect particularly the blasting and but drilling right sure um we've actually taken readings we started drilling today and we've taken DV readings both at the site and across at Mill Street and and sound uh depreciates over a distance and it's about 600 ft from the center of the site to the nearest house and that's about a loss of 50 DB now the ambient right next to 128 at the house is about 65 DB and I personally was over there today during our drilling operation and it didn't fluctuate below or above 65 DP you couldn't even hear anything that's happening at the site and I'm not advocating I'm just saying you know these are just sort of that's helpful these These are these are facts and and Blasting itself is actually less noise producing than the actual Drilling and hammering so we did we did testing of all the different equipment that's onsite drilling um rock hammering Etc just a machine moving and at you know the highest level was an excavator actually just it tracks running was about 95 DB so you you at the site at the site 20 feet away from it so if we did actually did a I could do that at the border of the property line I you know our drop would be significant to the nearest household again across 12 128's much louder than no 11 so I think the issue is twofold one is when going in the early morning hours8 presume you know on Sunday morning 128 is figher as well if you have if you also don't have the leaf if it's not leafed out you're going to have a Lou louder trespass more trespass and it's that percussive sound rather than the ambient right so that's the I think that's the concern um Laura has go ahead there just another consideration on allowing some extended or special weekend hours um you know at the discretion and with prior Advance um there may sometimes be a benefit to the town for instance if there's a utility shut off and we're trying to avoid doing something during business hours we may want to be able to allow that when it's actually potentially less disruptive and I think with a longer hours also we have the potential to I Don't Know by how much the team would have to answer that but um you know shorter hours and fewer hours leads to longer duration as well and more disruption so I I think there are considerations on sort of both sides of that coin we obviously don't want the project to be a nuisance to anyone but we do I think want to allow the flexibility to the project to proceed efficiently and with the least disruption on uh you know business operations and other considerations like that so just raising that point other comments um or Solutions proposed is it possible is it um 6:30 seems generous to me um particularly for the uh any kind of drilling or blasting um in I do think that for this site the backup alarms and the traffic issues are less of an issue than they are you know the high school um but um that's my opinion but um I do think that that track thrilling and the percussive you know um noise is 6:30 in the morning is pretty pretty loud for that pretty pretty early for that I'd rather give them a little extra in the back end okay I agree with that so you had read that regular byw construction about 7 to six 8 to six 7 to 6 during the week weekends B distance no it's uh prohibited between 6:00 p.m. and 8:00 a.m. on weekends and then allowed 8:00 a to 6:00 pm um during the non- weekend holiday 42 can I ask a question with that do we also have to reference the general bylaws in our the general bylaws we may have to reference it the general bylaws exception I think iy me this to Mark earlier is actually uh the I believe it's jurisdiction of the select board so you actually to ask that as well so we might do it foring but right the select board has to do with if we change it for zoning they would have to change it for the like a letter to them once we make our we don't have to reserve um we don't have to resolve it tonight so um I think at least yeah okay um so I think we'll continue to revise this but um that's that's the first issue um other issues Mark that people rais so uh we'll get to water afterwards that that'll be an extended discussion um there was a comment about the uh display of sustainable features of the building on the site that have been some discussion about that so um I just kind of have that down here I'm not sure there's some discussion about some buildings having displays in the lobby or chanels outside talking about some of the stuff so that was a suggestion I think I made that suggestion but I'm not sure we'd put it as a condition of the special permit I'm just no it's good to yeah I mean so it was brought up so I I don't know what people think I think it's a great idea I think it's a good idea every building that is uh worthy like this one is of displaying the measures they're taking to it wor where it's just letting the public know I don't know if that should be a condition for or just a pat on the back but nonetheless it's uh it's definitely worth showing people what you've done okay put on the list and we'll think about it y great um so the uh the access easan in the northeast corner of the property where the parking lot is to get to the Trails um so ensuring that there is some sort of permanent easement or access permitted for the maintain the parking lot and the access to that corner so we we've uh presented the trustees with a license agreement okay um and that access may need to be interrupted During certain periods of construction so it's a license not a perment okay um and uh it provides for the maintenance of the parking area by CST M and it provides that uh the trustees of reservations and their guests have the right to access the Loop Road and that parking area from sunrise to sunset which is the times for accessing your properties chair and has that been executed or uh we're waiting to hear back from them they have they have it they're reviewing it that seem reasonable to people or is that a Perpetual easement or license well license isn't Perpetual necessarily uh but uh in this case we anticipate that it's going to be permanent license but there will be there could be interruptions so could our condition be uh maintain public access to the trail head um through a license or other um you that that's okay what else up um well we should have a condition about inspection fees um we don't necessarily have a a set fee for construction inspections but to uh aren't those what the building fee building fee is for that's for the building for building a big site like this um the building inspector inspects the building but the site like the installation any underground um uh uh storm water like the installation of the catch basins and pipe and you know checking on the k b ground basins or if you were installing like stor receptors underground you'd want to have an inspector there for at least portions of the uh construction just to sure it's being inspected and constructed as this signed um and uh few you know an inspection inspect any uh offsite improvements or the road construction just to ensure that it's um constructed per plans so um so generally um so here where we don't really have an inspection piece set bi I don't believe you probably just uh set a schedule with the applicant but I just wanted to know that that's probably Mark may I may I comment on that for a second yeah so just as a matter of course so you do have you do have on-site inspection of everything that's going to be installed that be fair to say yeah I mean that's uh but just just so to to maybe ease the uncertainty of it would you mind just explain how you go about in doing inspections for roadways and building construction and such the combination of third party inspections for compacting and and Etc that H the civil engineer specifications they'll have specify a certain compaction rate uh CST will hire a third party inspection agency that will take tests during uh soil placement and Associates done civil engineering and they will have oversight construction administration of all the installed utilities they'll at the end provide and affid Davis getting install for their plan have those have those inspections those third party inspection agency been named already not yet and okay there but they will be named and they'll be part will they be part of your building permit application process yes under under the building permit there's there's number of inspections structural uh requires a third party inspection agency so the structural engineer will designate what tests he requires CST again will engage a third party testing agency to test the steel and concrete Etc so that's that's part of the building permit requirements so that testing agency so site work's a little different site work will be handled by uh third party and by Hancock and then building itself will be by third party structural agencies so big part of this is obviously the the I was going to say Earth removal but it'll be stone removal here you've got a you got an engineer observing the actual observing gza's been been hired G GZA has been hired to oversee the blasting and rock removal and they uh are on site on a regular basis doing their reports you know prior to blasting and then after blasting they've reviewed the blasting plan had comments uh so we've already engaged them in activities for the site okay and maybe just one other two in the environmental side but for offsite drainage or or flow or is is that is that follow in the town to observe that too just to make sure that the stuff that I know we've got probably a order of conditions from the I don't know in fact we probably have an order conditions from the Conservation Commission as to what to do who over who oversees that is that left to the town to see if that's that's so the Conservation Commission their agent has already been on the site there uh all the RO controls are in place and then during there's a swift for the project too so during the storm event or after storm there's an inspection that we do we do uh weekly reports and then uh event reports anything over two inches there's there's a a report that's done a new inspection and that's shared with kcom okay does that answer your question mark well it answers my question as far as what they plan on doing but often times and towns still have an inspector who represents the planning board who review the project to um kind of do not daily inspections but comes by as needed where when the installation of underground utilities or road construction drainage construction is being it's occurring to ensure that there you know often times uh problems come up during the site uh construction and you need never happened before yeah and um you know sometimes it's as simple as calling me and I go the site see what the issue is and permit some sort of change so they can keep going other times uh fires may your site inspector who is a licensed engineer to go out and look at it as well so that doesn't happen too often but it's it's it's beneficial to have um you know the inspector representing the town so we we've done this both ways um where we have worked with the towns inspector um because we go out to the settle RI we're deing with site work we've also done it where the town has asked for all our INSP speak up so Laura can here sorry um so we've also done it where uh as we go out we do our inspections we share those reports with the town so that in we're pseudo representing uh what's going on to the town so that they're aware of the progress there you know will be photographing utility implementations and the like so there's you know depending upon how you guys want to proceed we can you know you can have an inspector or we can represent the the inspections to the town to make sure everything is going can you describe the affidavit you have to write at the end how that relates to the execution of the design or the implementation of design um so as at the end of all this we have to do an asilt of all the utilities that are in place um and part of that asilt process is we have to basically state that it was built according to plan which is the reason we're going out there all the time to make sure that it is actually being put in the ground we do have documentation of how it goes forward um and that gets repres presented to um probably the building inspector in this circumstance in this you're going however you guys decide to proceed but there is that requirement that we will provide that as well okay so um the recommendation from the planner is a um inspector a represent inspector that represents us thing in my how um uh an inspector that represents us um to either review the actual work or review the um the the adelt or some and maybe with the town engineer too so let's at least put on the list and um helpful to know you have a commissioning agent in G GC but um can I add to something he said that we should if you're if the concom is getting weekly log reports I would say that the building inspector and the town engineer and the planner should get those as well can I um ask a question about inspections so who does the inspections for the labs and I guess yeah so who um and then is our Board of Health involved and then do you have yearly inspections for that and how does how does that get reported back talking about after construction so I'm assuming the lab is uni inspection right um just because of all the protocols surrounding that I incorrect that talking physical building correct well no the the lab space is the building right there are no specific protocols for this type of lab it's a bsl2 lab so it's just it's it's a component of the building um once they're in operation they have their own system that I can't we have to defer to Suzanne Martin we should get Suzanne for to get to give you a good answer we should get Suzanne to give you that answer at the next meeting because they do interface with the Board of Health I believe they do interf interface with other agencies but it's all is as he say it's about operations not the not the physical you know not the four walls the floor the ceiling yeah the physical lab still comes under the building permit and goes through the regular building inspection process which again it's it's what we call controlled construction so each design team is responsible for inspections and and verification that they were installed according to and that the plans meet the all the Massachusetts building codes okay so so must so I guess I'm thinking more operational correct and I'm just I don't know that our Board of Health has that in place I checked some other towns you know obviously Boston and Cambridge but smaller towns they have regulations to their Board of Health I just don't think we have them yet um and I don't know what kind of reporting the state requires or doesn't just curious so we'll give you we'll we'll come back with that answer um between now and next week next so I can just um just follow up on that I think that the building code has specific language around the construction of labs for the safety of the people using Labs ventilation rates and that kind of thing and then the any chemical work is regulated by um EPA or D depending on um and so I think that the operations are regulated by by laws um it might be useful to ask the board of help if there's something that that should be a condition but I think that in general labs are handled regulatorily um that said I think you bring up a good point that I want to make sure gets on the list which is the operation we've talked before about the operation maintenance plan of the landscape elements and the storm water elements and the cleaning of the catch basins and and I think what we talked about doing was having a the mission of an onm plan at you know uh 80% construction or something like that and approval by um our town engineer and um something like that so usually there's an onm plan for back and the storm water report is there yeah which specifies how often catch what needs to be done so I this is a standard language that I've used in some other uh where I wrote the applic sucesses are required to maintain the trage system catch basing shall be claimed at least yearly or more often required by the plan retain the system consider the violation event of failure the opport you provide notice and reasonable opportunity curing the deficiency the applicants failure to Cur the deficiency R te system consider violation syst rep be submitted to board clearly that's onject hold on one second Mark Gail you have a your hand raised are you saying gonna say you can't hear sorry Gail has her hand up gaale oh sorry I needed to unmute myself I respectfully remind the board that you have not called the meeting to order and you're off agenda at 7:03 actually we did call the meeting to um to order at what time at uh 6:30 oh so I'm late sorry no problem we approve the anr oh good to know thank you glad to uh answer your question um okay can I add one point to to Mary's point I thought that was an interesting one now she brought it up here so you are you doing a commissioning plan in the building I'm sure you are for the for the actual operations so for clarity what is the commissioning plan as related to an inspection plan commissioning is a third- party operations review to make sure that all equipment uh exhaust equipment uh Process Equipment is operating to the efficiency of the the specification so uh the commissioning plan would be involvement of a third party it's also part of the lead program uh for thirdparty commission so it's it's all-encompassing so that when we turn the building over to CST it is fully functional and everything has been documented that it's operating at its peak capacity so that's that's an important point it's it's actually more than just an inspection to make sure it was all put together it actually takes a piece of equipment fair to say and operates it to make sure that it's functioning as it was intended to do so that might be something to we'll watch as it go through it that's a the it's more towards the end of the project and actually after the project Even build this that's been a reallying actually starts during design yeah oh yeah actually start starts very early very much engaged that's actually part of the Leal program is to have the commissioning involved early on in De yeah are you commissioning the envelope too yes okay um other besides we talked about well I I had a condition about um fighting so should board have concerns with the level of liting intensity or light properties to um require the applicant to adjust levels of lighting types of pictures and location of individual lights so sometimes even though there might be a real B lighting PL that are some lights that need adjustments um one thing you wanted uh to discuss was the performance guarantees to secure the the Improvement uh including Landscaping drainage justst pavement install the as plan so typically that's um something that's for a commercial site just kind of to ensure the completion of the last elements of of a project um so that they don't get uh know lefted out on major projects it's not too much as much of a concern as uh with smaller projects that are by but uh there still should be any form to so the qu and that's under Section 12.6 point8 I believe that you can have the condition of site plan prob special perm too but um may require construction and site alterations permitted specified be secured by one or in part by one part by another of method set forth general laws 41 section 81u um except for the statutory Cen so um so what do you recommend on that Mark well um I don't have a estimate for what it would for like landscaping and U final installation uh course of pavement usually and the ASO plan but um usually in this case it could be you know I'm sure that is probably I'm guessing a million dollars or more and I think that's a little excessive to require something like that but someone in the neighborh of a few hundred, uh in a performance guarantee perhaps a uh a revokable letter of credit um might be should be sufficient so I think the concern is that if unforeseen happens and particularly the site elements is you know if the building doesn't get built um it's unfortunate and um presumably has some value but it's the site it's it's a site sitting there unimproved without the storm water elements pouring into Sawmill book and you know loose soils and un those kinds of things are what concern me it I don't really concern me but they that's what we want to protect the town so that Nate doesn't have go up there and spend money just you know secure the site and Seed it or whatever um that kind of thing okay um any thoughts from you folks um I think that uh it would be best for us to get a draft of what you're proposing and then respond rather than do it P basis I'm happy to do that as soon as we get something okay sounds good I add something to that um you just mentioned that you know the site draining down to Sawmill Brook and we have our P pass issue ises are we requiring any like initial testing on the site and then post development testing um I mean we did it for Black Earth and places like that where just to make sure there's is no runoff into our water supply so phase one and phase two was done property before we started I'm sorry can you say that a phase one and phase two was done for this project consultant before we even started design presumably all that stuff's taken care of and there's no construction activity that I know of was going to put up pass onto that site I'm not sure what you need phase one and phase two we did we did environmental rep bad stuff on the site yeah I'm not sure we're answering question so we before we acquire the went and dug honor holes and you know tested soil and that sort of thing looking for anything bad that might be there and Matt saying we didn't uncover anything at the time okay and I guess you I think you were questioning you were asking about impacts on the weapons and the water supply and that kind of thing and I guess I would think that really would be covered under the concom and the order conditions and the requirements and the review that they'll continue to do okay so they did they cover that okay thank you and I have comment on that but Laura has her hand up go ahead yes regarding the value of the um scope from the performance bond we heard a number thrown out there like a couple of hundred thousand dollars I don't think we know what that number is so I think um the uh Team can provide us with the number based on the GMP but we need to get an understanding of what the scope is in the site I don't think it's just the final grading and seaing and planting but potentially does that include the site utilities you know site enabling um the value of the entire site and Landscaping package I don't know whether that includes the geothermal Wells or you know there should be a mutual understanding I think of what the scope is that's included and then what the value of that is based on the GMP and the requirements that should Define that performance bond so um so for a commercial site like this you're not um this is different than a subdivision where you're not going to come in and build down a road now you have lots sold and you have homeowners there and you have a half do Road and so there drainage problems this happens you know with small developers or even big developers when they run into financial problems uh with subdivisions where the town has to hold the bond and finish the road but that's different here in a commercial site really you're looking to hold enough funds um to ensure that they want to finish it because because if it's a irrevocable letter of credit usually a bank is holding cash and they want the money back uh that way they guaranteed money or they deposit money into an account that the town holds so they want those funds back so it needs to be large enough to ensure that they're going to complete the site and come in and and uh and finish the job so that they can get the funds released so you're not going to the town is not going to go on the site unless there's an emergency situation where you know uh the swamp is filling up with run with you know soil and other deges so okay so the amount of a performance bond it remains to be decided and it can be released along the way too as and I think so Laura's point about what what we're bonding what's in the scope yeah is important I just um also want to come back to Mary's question about and the question about the um conditions of Sal Brook um my our experience with the high school is that uh D watched very carefully uh the sill Brook turbidity and May and they and the concom made their assessments um regularly and um uh with Force with the impact of law unfortunately um and uh I think we were the the district was the on the on the end of uh paying for work at the cell signaling site not your work but anyway um so the there are lots of eyes that look at these things um okay any other uh so the only other um uh large issue um oh it's not a large issue uh little issue is make sure you speak up so Laura the only other thing that I uh is uh the building permit is I mean the um the building permit so the approval is good for two years I don't know if it's in our bylaw for two years and so I wrote it the building perit is not issued within 24 months of the date of approval um or this may be extended by the board for additional onee period so put that in if I make comment on that usually when it's speci permits issue it's not necessarily the building permit that is the trigger but it's the commencement of work that is authorized by the special permit so during that 2-year period it's not necessary that we pull a building permit but only that we start constru my yeah I kind of like the stricter version myself so that someone doesn't go out there and just push some dirt around while I've initiated construction and and they do that for several years um so well I think we actually have one of those in process right yes so okay and then of course the last uh big issue is um the various Tru coming and other comments from the biking Comm to do with um Atwater R and bike lanes and so on and so forth so um so uh I did meet with uh their team about Atwater AB in particular um and I did also forward the um bike and P comment letter to everybody as well so I guess we should talk about Atwater app first um we had proposed so I had proposed along with the public works that they install a sidewalk on the north side of Atwater a um there's approximately 25 26 27 ft of pavement along that roadway um um in order to so it doesn't give you enough width um to do like a protected multi-use lane or two um 5 foot bike Lanes on either side and even if you did you wouldn't have really something for pedestrians as well so uh what we had talked about or what I had proposed was to do a sidewalk on the north side of Atwater Avenue and then put a series of uh of um uh traffic caling measures to slow um traffic down to the posted speed limit which is 20 um so that that bicycles will feel safe in the roadway itself itself so and that can be accomplished within that approximately 26 foot wide width um down at Water app so um we had proposed a couple different and talked about some different traffic calming measures nothing really was necessarily decided upon um there was probably I think we kind of agreed that uh something like Rumble strip of order way down some sort of traffic caling I uh halfway down where the side street goes up the hill I proposed like a raised intersection like a tabletop there um there are a variety of other things that you could do and then another Rumble strip then you get to the curves and you go up the hill so that's three things and it's very similar to um kind of a construction um plan that they had done put together as well so um so are you are you g to put together a recommendation of what you want or do you you it for discussion yeah I I kind of wanted to open it up for discussion to see if there been a lot of discussion yes I'm sure I'm sure there has I just wasn't sure whether and we're prepared to respond I think that Sam Gregorio is on the call on the me at the meeting okay and he's our traffic and Matt will sort of introduce Sam because Matt has his own thoughts okay but not on the spot did you see that you see how that went um so we had a meeting the other day uh Chuck was there too Sam myself and Peter and was um so you guys have some ideas um where we have concerns about some of them um I think there's a a way to come to an agreement that's not too invasive into that road um Sam is from Tec he's our traffic consultant for the project he's put together the uh all the traffic reports that you guys already seen um and what s was looking to do U was basically kind of bring some some facts to the discussion um I know that um generally we're very much against the sidewalk um it mecks down that road way too much um and I know that our neighbor um has a lot of heavy trapped trucks going in and out so that raise tabletop I'm pretty sure he's going to be against but you know the rumble strips I think we're okay with uh striping um I've had personal experience with striping it does do some tremendous traffic cing um and it's it's pretty easy to implement um Sam do you w to uh talk sure don't worry I'm here um well introduce yourself again for the record the camera off so I'm actually in view um well good evening everybody once again um Sam Gregorio the senior traffic engineer at Tec um May of you remember me from the first meeting a few weeks ago um so um prior and then obviously subsequent to the discussion we had over the phone the last week um TC did some additional work just to kind of look at uh what a sidewalk would mean on Atwater um and just going out there to take a couple different cross-sectional measurements at different locations so about four to five it was five different locations at Water um each of them the maximum width that I was getting was about actually 25 ft from edge of edge um so with a sidewalk to put in there with curving uh we're talking about reducing the road at that point down to less than 20 feet uh for bidirectional traffic uh which in a typical sense a road like at water which is um you know a public roadway we wouldn't usually actually go less than 22 on the actual surface of that roadway 11t for side um because at this point when we're down lower than 20 um even if the [Music] sidewalk sorry I'm get a lot of feedback from something um sorry um even if we were um putting a sidewalk in that doesn't satisfy forance any bike accommodation as well and that would force the basically bikes into even tighter position to such say a 19t wide uh pavement surface uh for that section of roadway for that it's 2200 ft long um there's not really much area to expand the roadway beyond the actual edges because on both Sid of roadway I think we talked about this maybe one of the last means as well is is Wetlands uh flaged Wetland uh right beyond the side of the roadway on each edge of the road both North and South um so regardless of the fact that we might be actually touching the Wetland but anything in there would actually be inside any of the buffer zones um obviously and adding impervious land in order to if we were trying to maintain say at least a 22 foot roadway and adding a 5 foot sidewalk plus curbing onto one of those Edge and then in addition to that obviously the what what happens to the water in that sense on the roadway right now there's no curving on in the side of at water so adding a sidewalk to the edge forces the drainage into a need to be um collected to catch and that something that doesn't exist on that water right now and then where does that water actually go other than a general runoff right now that's actually already happening um so there's been I know discussions that we had during that meeting as well about pitching the road um potentially in One Direction so the water flows off one way that still puts all the water into potentially a wetland area um and then beyond that um pitching the roadway puts us also in position uh even if there's no Crown today which is very minimal and and you don't have a Thal radway CL on that water we're trying to position it to say 2% to get all in one direction we're talking about you know a 2 to 3 in Rise maybe in the payment on one side plus utility work that's already happening which kind of puts us into a full roadway reconstruction along that so with that it doesn't necessarily make sense on a um feasibility level with just the roadway whiff component of reducing the roadways Whi while try still trying to maintain B traffic over that distance um and then from there I know we did talk about some things with the uh traffic calming measures and uh I think um doing items such as rumble strips um is something that actually does and has been consistently been seen to uh help um deter uh speeding on roadways and we actually get the benefit on Atwater Avenue compared to many other roadways where there's no houses so the any sound that might be coming out of the rumble strips um uh which is usually the deterrent or wanting to do it on many different roadways actually kind of goes away so that's one thing that would be seen as um some of that could be easily done and then I just Hawking back to what Matt had said earlier um the striping of the roadway itself so one thing that we don't have on at water right now is any striping so and I think the the town agrees I think it was brought up even at one of the last meetings is um the residents or the people going to the Mac um tend to drive kind of down the middle of the middle of the road uh and that open feeling of having extra pavement on each side um and something as simple as striping down the center Andor striping on the edge um you can do both or one or the other um puts people in a position to know where that edge and that Center is and keeping them into a lane and as people try to stay into a particular Lane it's a natural effect that they it slows them down um so in addition to those two I mean we I know dur that me we did talk about other things as well but I think there are opportunities to still maintain the actual width of the radway uh to provide that accommodation for Bic bicyclist as well where um I think Nar in the radway to something less than 20 feet puts um a more tight squeeze on bicy uh along with the vehicles that will be on the roadway okay thank you I have a couple question CHR so would a rumble strip be dangerous for bicycle riders or can they be designed in such a way that you don't Rumble if you're on a bike sure and um and there's a couple different ways that it can be done I know part of the conversation in the the town meeting the Town f call on the other along sprance the shoulder line or or along the center line and the shoulder line one to the Tor you would typically see at say like a freeway um or if you go up to Maine or Vermont um you get them down the center line uh for a laundry tunal so that we're talking if this was the option for instance you know 2200 ft of it going all the way down the road um or doing something more like um as you're entering a toe Booth you get the rumble strips across the road in a in a so you're crossing over them perpendicular um and you set those maybe every 500 feet instead as opposed to all the way along the roadway um that that ladder version would be something that would be the more um beneficial in both sense of let's say the bicycle travel where you can end them they don't have to go um all 22 feet across the road they can go 18 feet across the road leaving a certain area as you go past them that may be levels off while still maintaining the area where a vehicle Tire will go over them um but in a general sense even rumble strips it's not as long as you know they're coming um um they usually be signed if you have them because you'll always be like a rumble strip ahead or Rumble strip position um and along as that warning as long as the biker knows it's coming it's usually um although they're still going to feel maybe the rumbles if they do go over it as long as they're prepared for it it's usually fine which when they're not prepared for it it's usually when you get like mil pavement for instance where it's not like a known thing that's coming up that's when it becomes usually difficulty for a bike or a motorcycle for that matter but um the challenge with a la in tudinal version like the ones that run along this edge of the roadway is um you generally get the um jerking of the wheel effect uh from a driver um so when you hit that I mean it's usually uh because well someone's in a car not paying attention or that usually hit him on the side of the road or the center line and the natural reaction of someone when they hit them is to somewhat drip the wheel a little bit trying to correct themselves um where um on an arterial roadway or a freeway there's a lot of Correction space uh when you drip your wheel um so not saying I want people driving the other lane but there's always a chance that someone's going to do that cross over a line to correct themselves um um the deterrent of that on atwat is there's not a lot of Correction space because the roadway itself is only 22 feet wide and the other lane of traffic is right next to you and even beyond the roadway there's lot of trees um and a lot of other obstructions um so you don't want to put people in a position where they're going to have the the jerking of the wheel effect uh so doing something more similar to what like a toe boo might be um as your approach one where you you know you hit the the 10 strips um and then you may hit them again 500 ft later that's something that may be the more um applicable use on this and it's something that we can do again at multiple intervals on this long a stretch of road um and in addition again why it's just also maybe a general benefit is we don't have to deal with that noise pollution part of it that we usually have to TP uh typically deal with when we're near residences and is it possible to use lighting like like a you know flashing light if there's a bike in the roadway a motorist can see so they know that the road is occupied by bicycles while they're passing over it you mean like like a oh like at a rumble strip you mean well maybe at a r just for the whole roadway like a crosswalk you know used have these lights uh where rail Trails cross the road and there's a flashing light that lets the motorist know the people are crossing but this would be one that would alert motorists that there bicycle riders in the road yeah um typically we wouldn't do things like that for a bicycle accommodation along the roadway stretch and that's only because the bicycles are usually traveling in the same path of travel as the vehicle as opposed to a pedestrian who's Crossing who's creating conflict points directly with the vehicles as they cross the vehicle path um so that's why we would use maybe flashers or sometimes you seeing crosswalk you might see the little LEDs on the actual crosswalk lines you've been up by like UMass Amhurst they have those or sorry 's College they have those out there um so in a bicycle sense um without it there might be an opportunity to do something if there for instance a dedicated bicycle lane um so which I I don't think we would even fit Beyond even doing a sidewalk on thisway but it might be opportuni to do something like that if that were the case but even then um there's not necessarily a correlation to something like that that's actually in the the mutcd the manual on uniform traffic control devices which is where we try to uh well where we're kind of for standard wise to put all of our marking signage and other things that affect um individual types of things like that so um there are opportunities to do potential other things that I know came up in the meeting and whether or not that's uh we wanted to go that Ro for in a in a speed control sense but you know dynamic radar signs that you know light up the speed I know everybody's seen them on different roadways um but those things um can be programmed um in different ways to do different things whether it's just the speed even if there's you know a couple flashing ambers with them um like a normal flash that only maybe turn on when someone's approaching I mean there's different like that could that may be done but that's different than I think what you're saying and that wouldn't be necessary for bikes it be more like the overall Vehicles as they're coming um but generally those uh type of items um in terms of bike uh facilities again we just don't usually see uh for individual flashers for that uh facility on its own um thank you um we also received a letter from the bike and pedestrian committee it's in our um packets um and they uh just gave us input that they'd like to see traffic coming on Atwater um some extension of the school school street bike lane um from the to to extend up to the inter change it at waterer um they' like extension of School Street buffer bike lane to the Essex line um development of a concept plan for the School Street Corridor and mitigation for construction so I think we have that input in our packet right now um I do want to make sure that we try to stay on schedule tonight um and I want to get make sure we get a chance to have some public comments so um Mark what do you suggest as the next steps for maybe a small group to to hammer out some of these issues on the on the bike lane unless uh and on the Atwater AB improvements in particular um or does the board have any specific go forgg specifically else like what the board's opinion about okay whether sidewalk should be installed whether uh maybe a variety of traffic there other traffic com things we haven't really talked about because we're kind of focused on putting the sidewalk in and a few traic Bing things but if we don't put a sidewalk in you know maybe then you could utilize different traffic Comins to try and besides a couple rumble strips in order to slow traffic down along the whole stretch as well I mean there there is a although the pavement variable somewhere around 254 wide there is a little some shoulder on either side so so there is some flexibility um on doing some other types of of uh traffic coming so so I think my my thing is is the board is very um focused on uring that's a sidewalk and we kind of have to go down one route board wants to be flexible and the goal is just to you can slow traffic down y um then no matter what your method of travel is you're walking on the shoulder or you're um on a bicycle you'll be reasonably safe so so Mark I'm trying to get clarity on you what what is the current scope for whether it's the town or whether self signaling does it what is the the current scope of doing anything on that out water app well um so right now there's a cul that needs to get replaced that goes over the brook there so that's going to be replaced with the wider bridge and utilities need to be installed so CST one goes across does does anything come down the road utilities are going to be coming down the road so that road is going to be ripped off so that road is going to be disturbed in a significant way and so this is the time to design what goes back okay I just want to your taking know that the that the utilities don't go down the center of the road the amount of utilities and extent have yet to be detered I do know that portal from uh kick glast drive to the CFT site underground electric is proposed but it does not go all the way out to school so comes from kick glass gas uh utility has yet to be determined know that there is a proposal from the town to extend sewer and water from the CST site to K but the balance of the determined whether it needs upgrading for either cable or or gas so in so in so doing if you do have to rip up the road to put in these cables or bring the gas line that water that mean you will literally fix the the damage caused and repave that area or repave the whole thing I'm just trying to get a sense there's you know there's going to be a lot of truck traffic over the next few years I think the intent at some point in time either the toer or cstp would propose to resurface the year like gas coming down would be by National Grid would not be by SE it's be on their behalf but National Grid utility would be installing and patching doing work in at so it's fair to say that atwat Avenue the the disposition whether repair cuted whatever has not been determined yet it's not not in your scope myope not in your scope okay that's a big deal can I offer my opinion I go I go to the Mac four to five times a week and I I find a sidewalk would be as much I think it's a it's a nice and many I just don't think it would be useful but people are people are just winging down that road just to get to the mac and then winging right back out of it too and I frankly I see very few bikes up there although there is so I would be this is personal opinion I would think striping delineating the sideline and the center line would do a lot for people organizing their their Drive their way to get up to there and that would be kind of an self self-induced self-imposed controlling speed control measure I would think that would work better than to put a sidewalk in as far as the rumble strips I'm a great believer I've lived in bermad forever and they put rumble strips in the middle on the sides they put them everywhere they possibly can just so you're aware of where you are in the road so I have no idea if we're we can do this or not could we stick a stop sign you know halfway down the road or at the intersection with kick glass or you know stop signs make people slow down especially when they know they're coming up um even if they don't like them um stick another one further up by the curve I don't know stop signs that are that have very little or no ax traffic people don't stop at the post office okay um my one of the thoughts that I hadn't I was came into this meeting thinking a sidewalk would be a good thing but then as I think about it we do have a significant amount of very of wide um truck coming out of the uh industrial area we have tra um trucks with trailers with um you know landscaping equipment so that is um if you're a car coming to the Mac or to CST as those landscape trailers are going out and there's a sidewalk it might be pretty in the winter a pretty tight um uh or even impossible I don't know um passage it would only be slow um Laura is that that's me yeah Sarah I was just waiting till you were done shall I go ahead yes go ahead okay thanks I I understand what I'm hearing about the the dimensional constraints and the physical constraints of not being able to draw to extend beyond the existing impervious I think it would be great if Hancock or civil engineer could help us draw through this so we can actually understand dimensionally um you know what's the best uh opportunity would be for pedestrian and bicycle accommodations along the length of Atwater ab and then we could really uh see it and determine whether a sidewalk fits and I don't know if that's a three-foot sidewalk or a 5- foot sidewalk if we're talking about trucks turning out I mean I think you know we can understand the design vehicle and the um the size of those vehicles that have to be accommodated and if there are tractor trailer turns and things like that happening then those are um those are things that put pedestrians and bicycles at some risk so I think doing whatever we can within the um physical constraints of the road is important and I think the best way to understand that is really to draw through it um and then you know if it is if a sidewalk is physically infeasible then we may be talking about Str rping and sherrow and things like that there traffic calming and possibly rumble strips but I think the the best way to understand that would be to to draw through that so I wondered if we could um suggest that the project team help us with that Laura you're a professionalist is are three-foot sidewalks ever done it'll they what you don't any no I know yeah so you couldn't do it side yeah I was just wondering what the assump were about you know what's been carried and the the minimums there yeah so and it may be that we you know don't have that but if the survey has been done and we could do at least a sort of schematic level or conceptual level look at what those traffic um Coming um recommended traffic cing um design details could be then I think we could have a more informed conversation about it any other comments from the board um I'm going to suggest we that Mark and Nate and Hancock revisit this and come up with a couple different um drawn options um and it maybe one if if you can um I don't know Laura if you have any time to join that conversation or um if not i' be willing maybe Gordon too would be could join that so the board is represented in that conversation okay great thank you um any uh I did write down one other um condition potentially is to resurface at whatav at the end of uh from from school street to the um now that we know that I I was on the impression that was part of the scope so might add that to our list talk about um I'd like to just uh turn now to um any um public comment um and I'm going to limit public comment because we do have other hearings there will be more time for public comment we also uh welcome your emails or letters and we're typing comment here on um on cell signaling so um anybody in the room first um seeing no one I'll take uh Phillip's iPhone you can state your name and um your address please Don Doner Blossom Lane um as somebody that um just with regards to the sidewalk um potential to the Mac it's interesting as a as a runner who's been a member of the Mac for you know 18 years and part of a runnner group and a bike group that came and went to and from the Mac that that road is gnarly I'm not going to lie um and whenever we run to the side you know little cars move over to one side it's it's so nerve-wracking running or even biking up and down at Water I'm not I'm not even quite sure a sidewalk would make somebody feel comfortable because with a big truck you still feel it's really nerve-wracking and I've actually you know since stopped doing that it just makes me a little bit too concerning so it's just something like if you really want to get you know maybe even some input there are a lot of people who have run and did running groups from the Mac um you know you might want to even tap into into them to see whether or not that would even be worth at this particular point I we don't do much going up and down at water that much anymore um the road's just not big enough and it's just really scary to be on a bike and and and running on that road up and down so it's just something to think about to maybe tap into some of the people that that work out at the Mac uh that might have done stuff on the road and things of that nature to see what you might want to do it's just another input thank you very much thank you um take a comment from Sandy um great hi thanks um Sandy Rogers 82 old S6 um I have a question about the Atwater Road and whether the traffic study um has assessed the additional runoff impact of all of the traffic that's expected in the phases of this development um and then hearing that either the road may be ripped up or resurfaced and you know what that means who is responsible for maybe ensuring there's more buffer I don't know what you do like like runoff protection um because it go you know the the the brook runs all the way up at water so has that been assessed and whose responsibility that is let Mark answer that question thank you Sandy well so on one side of that water AB there is the Swale on the south side of that water the entire length which is not been very well maintained there is some drainage structures in that Swale so that's something that needs to get cleaned up and um maintained a little better however it is a public roadway so I think that's something now that we're focusing on that uh Works May um press uh drainage going off the other side of the street right now there's um it just sheet flows off and unless carbine and drainage structures are put in um there's really um the water would continue to to flow untreated off that half of the roadway uh toward the Wetland so at this point there's no plan to to do anything there so if I could just add though the the work at self signaling that we've had a review by our um consultant of the storm water treatment um structures and the construction plan and the kcom has weighed in on the project okay yeah so all the onsite storm water is being properly captured and treated um um per all the standard rules regulations great any other wait a minute Sandy let's see if anybody else has a comment um any other comments and from members of the public on sell signaling um Okay sandy go ahead you had one more comment Andy go ahead hi um this has to do with all the way up at water versus the site itself I understand the site itself you're looking at all of that runoff but I think that the town needs to plan on an ongoing basis what happens to the upkeep of ensuring because my understanding is up to 500 cars a day going in and out maybe multiple times and other kinds of service vehicles and Etc so I think that needs to be added to the review thank you thank you any other comments um great um thank you um at this point I think the next steps is that Mark is going to draft up the um conditions um and if there are other comments from Darren did I see Darren on here Darren are you here oh yes yeah no on um yeah we have a limited number of like closeout documentation and we have received actually the geothermal information as of this morning so we need to look through that uh documentation from the applicant um but we have just we're kind of winding down our comments okay great and any um additional conditions that you see should be added can you get those to Mark sure yeah I think everything that was a condition or a waiver would be uh in the last mem we issued okay good thank you um great and so they will have this little working group um uh be on the and come back to us with a plan the question um I have is um if we try to close this out on September 9 whatever that first second Monday in September is I believe it's the 9th yes or 9th um and not meet again uh potentially meet on you could um on the 12th August 12 August 12th to have a little bit further conversation about the roadway which I think is the outstanding issue and then if we skip there the last we're trying to have just one meeting in August we would skip the 26th um is that uh and then try to close it out on September 9th for you guys think that would be accepted okay um the other thing I think is that Mark and Mark should talk a little bit about the performance bond and make a proposal back and I think you're going to get the conditions to them that they can then respond to them okay great and I think in addition to the conditions there does need to be a waiver list too because as we discussed during the course of public hearing there are a number of requirements in the performance standards that we're deviating from and and you specifically have the authority to do that so I think we just need to highlight them great so the waiver list my waiver list okay great um okay good so I'm gonna um uh what the right word continue um the public hearing to August 12th um at uh 6:30 you want to do the other one let's do okay 6:30 yeah at 6:30 on August 12th um do I have a motion yes some moved second in favor yes thank you uh great thank you everybody productive discussion I think tonight great okay three minutes you want to speak say anything get something done in three minutes um we could um hearing for um P point you don't have to wait until 8 o' so if you want to discuss that approval I sent out the draft there were any other I didn't that emailed Friday early evening and then you it again giving you credit I that if you w to there's just like to type edits typos there's incorrect bylaws um get my comment or no yes that I did okay you want to go open them now or you want to wait why don't we take them after we everybody's been waiting why don't we take those after okay um okay being okay everybody um open the um public reopen the public hearing for um reart and morser talks so move second I'll second in favor yes okay thank you um great um so we received a number of um letters um in support of uh the um plan so thank you for those um and also um some additional material which I'm trying to pull up here um but um Bion do you w to off uh so let's see here so uh I think we the goal was to try to answer questions of board from last time right so total project dollar cost for each of the two projects we provided the amount funded by Grant dollars taxpayer fund dollar amount we provided analysis of generated Revenue to downtown businesses that docs now that is something that Dartmouth College went to Great Lengths to do back in the 1980s it's not something that I can do with your h m that's that's not my thing but the uh Mass Marine trade study of marinas and the upshot of it is that do study says for every $1 spent tying up at a dog $8 get spent in municipality Mass Marine trades which is more recent says that for every $1 spent that Revenue brought in for added dots I provided the math for that uh and the way I did that was I took revenue generated and for a season and calculated that at the current rate uh and extended that out for the ex additional 500 ft and then also calculated it for the additional 500 ft at $5 a foot which would be the expected rate of the new facility so divided that and then the additional yearly maintenance cost personal costs put that well that's all in in what you received there's two spreadsheets well there's one spreadsheet with two working sheets one Fisherman's facility one we park with the numbers for each if anybody had any questions about those numbers happy to try to answer those um so with the fisherman's facility so there's a $100,000 match for residents is that going to be asked for for next town meeting I'm I'm not sure but a Fishman facility $100,000 match what it said on the grant page on the town website so right so uh the estimate for the construction piece is $585,000 if we can get the cport Economic Council Grant which we will get if the MBTA issue gets resolved um but the town will have to come up whether it's through Waterway fund or CPC or I don't know okay so that's an unknown yeah um and then with the um the other numbers you gave so um I'm not exactly sure what the grants cover like if they cover the bringing water and electricity out or is that an added expense that's so so the the two grants totally 1.65 million covers engineering design permiting construction putting in water electricity okay that includes getting the appropriate power to the dock across par which is was the discussion about know making sure the treams are protected trenching for water we have water but for the electricity cross it's all okay so then when you do the calculations of what the net revenue would be where does the water and electricity cost that bers are potentially using come out so we don't know yet we don't know what that's going to be I couldn't begin to estimate it so uh our Revenue projections are for a straight $2 foot which is our rate right now and projected increase to $5 to foot whether or not we would have a charge for folks who are going to use water and electricity some question about what sell electricity so it may have built into $6 but anywhere you travel when you go in Cruise you pay for water and electricity and dockage the the facility is making money off all of those things okay so calculation for that I don't know I don't know these are just okay so these are I guess it's safe to say these are rough estimates at this well the best I can provide so we would take the net revenue and then back out whatever the water electricity cost would be well I doubt if we do that we probably increase it to six yeah which is not out of line at all for other facilities that in do space yeah and I'm I'm not a voer so I don't know but I but I've seen a lot of communities do a tier right like by the size of the boat um but you would just do so well uh I I just did this because there's just so many different ways you could approach it and it could be that um the town decide that a different approach would be better I would guard strongly against the approach that was chosen let's only charge this much this year and see how it goes which we did the first year with the Dos we should decide what the fair market value is I also feel like we shouldn't set our price too far below what everyone else is doing because we don't want to deny you know Manchester Marine if they're a a sh side slip we don't want to take away from them we want to make sure we protect our businesses too by not undercutting so where does that get decided the $5 or the $6 that's just a number so I just use that as a number to show you projection for what we could be potentially bring in but who decides that I guess oh Harbor advisory committee would make recommendations to the select Bo that's and probably be circled into the discussion are you going to the other parts of it or uh okay so we just discussed repart the fisherman's facility as far as that goes there's no construction dollars yet can apply those GRS talk about that we all part I guess I'm not sure what else I could share with you I I had lots and lots of pretty pictures of communities pile supported STS all Southwest t with me situ all B was lots of lots of pictures you should have been sent those actually got any pictures well I'll tell you what I can do I think you I can share them you sent them to my Gmail um you were going to do some renderings of the I was not doing any renderings I I I made that very clear at the last meeting I have no money for renderings I have no money at all and it wasn't part of my budget so I'm not going to do I can share the um the um but this this is just other those are just pictures of other communities yeah you'll have those electronically yeah I'm sorry those were those were included in the additional information set today they were they were attached there okay so here's a can you guys see this um uh we just didn't get them in that's yeah uh the other one of the other questions was the language regarding who's efficient is before we do that let me I'm showing the pictures so um let's do one thing at a time otherwise I get confused so are those 20 foot so this is a uh why you tell me tell us what you're trying to show here this year there's a question about uh lighting and we don't want to have overwhelming lighting this is Dark Skies lighting typical of a marina you can have lights that shine out it's the typ I they Shine Down onto the dock provide safe um uh strolling across the docks you can see where you're walking but the lights do not shine up into the sky you contribute to is there any requirements on the boats for light or one of the benefits of having water I'm sorry electricity is that don't have to run generators be noisy most how many how many transient dos are there right now we have 250 year but how many so how many hookups does that equate to for Trans dos well so we don't have any right now I would say we 250 which you say pedestal both sides just you can set every 20 ft right which if you do it if you set them every 20t they actually have light bu into right which is it's not it's kind of dim Andy said you can have these pedestals so that it can have a boat on each side so one two floats every 50 ft so that would be five pedestals so you so that we currently have per five we have well we have 250 ft so it really depends on the length of the boat uh Saturday night we had we had uh six uh vessels stay overnight if it's all 22 25 20 foot boats that's one thing the tall 45 50 foot boats that's equ now we don't fill the 250 ft with overnighters because that denies any space for the folks who want to come in and tie up so we do try to reserve I like to try to reserve at least 75 fet for the G Trippers okay so this is um we go to the next it depends on the length of the vote again you know it's the number number of both that can fit at the dot in direct relation to so we don't know so we had a letter that said Cruise Bo Cruise yeah I I don't know who keeps talking about cruise boats and about daes first of all we can't do commercial vessels cannot be Commercial Business at the re Park dogs that Federal grant could us that so you can't have a fery you can't have whale watch you can't have those steep sea fishing you can as a matter of fact we have um fishing camps that operate out of Manchester have for years and during the pandemic when everything was a struggle we did let them come in but they operate they they land and pick up kids at tux Point not rep park because for example glester got in trouble last year for allowing commercial operators to use their big funded do and if you're going to follow them they're going to make you pay the grant back in our case that would be couple $1,000 that would be unfortun okay so why don't you walk us through these pictures and what you're trying to illustrate so uh as far as how tall are these pilings when was it built was it built before the standards changed I don't know the real Point uh I'm trying to point out here and you can see there are new green heart pilings in the back that are much taller so it could be when those those are replaced pilings much taller to meet the the new standard the real point that I'm trying to make here is that if you have facility where you are asking people to come in and pay and use your facility you need to build it like this this is safe easier to manage this is Bast main again pile supported dots ask Ste P supported floats appear that's is that a pile supported duck yeah it is so that's not a 14 foot pile supported duck so that's called the rider well the tides up there are a lot different than they are around here we have uh dlet tide around here up there it's 14 15 feet getting closer to the Bay of fundi where it's 40 feet you want to see some pilings go up there they you got Pilots but that's on a rider pilot Rider pilings this is if you were to go out here and look at the peel House Square docks which are all riding up and down on pilings those pilings are up against the pier they don't support the pier they just look like they do because they're up against it called Riders okay the other question I'm just going to go back to a second because I'm thinking out loud the docks that you have at Reed Park right now do not have a uh I guess this like a conduit or something for electric right so are you going to run them in a conduit or you going to just run them in a a conduit along the side of the dock how how are these utilities going to run along the dock when we build these floats the conduits will be below the deck how but you have to run them in the existing dock you have to retrofit the existing docks yeah that's easy there's there that's not challenging at all so that um I guess we don't have any have some neighbors across each street that are going to look at those um okay that's Castine uh this is Cy hunk lots and lots of file supported uh docks there that's a different setup rather than have individual slips they have pilings and the boats back in between the pilings and uh the bow of the stern whichever way you go go and usually you back in you put your bow those pilings will have a a cleat sort of thing hanging off that bolted in at the top and you just hang a line over over it so that's a different tile but that there there a lot of Pilots see this is Southwest Harbor me uh the the dogs right there when you go down to the public leing um Dart Marina all supported that might have been duxberry oh you're right that was duxberry this is this is Southwest I know because you see the two monstrously tall new pilings that are in there I tied up next to one of those so uh Edgar town and they have pilings out it's sort of a a bound Stern situation without Moorings but with pilings and kind of bun for me you can see the spirit of Massachusetts in the background that is the moonium islands those are steel Northeast Harbor Main very Harbor main again this is like Cas those floats are on Rider piling and Booth Bay um okay comments or questions from the board so yeah I have sort of a statement to make I think we're a land use agency or over oversight over land use and I feel kind of uncomfortable trying to decide things about the harbor you're a duck out of water I'm a duck out of water and there are other boards in this organization in this town that do oversee the harbor and they seem to think this is a great plan and something that's going to benefit the community I'm not sure the planning board has got much to say that what if we overrule them what what is that say about the time so you know I just feel kind of uncomfortable uh commenting on this since I don't have a boat and I don't know how the harbor works and I trust spy on who seems to be doing a great job doing it that's my personal view of this I was going to offer uh if if it would help and I may have said this last time but this project has the fisherman's facility has 14 pilings uh one of them being over on the re park side that was going to be used to house our new town launch service and a public safety boat and that would be of all the pilings that's most out uh in the middle furthest out I'd be willing to say let's not do that let's let that finger go let's get rid of that piling that doesn't mean none across uh in front of deep street but it does get rid of one on that side of the hybrid that probably be a a I attractor I have some comments okay go ahead um you know so like it or not we the law our bylaws say for the planning board to do this so I think we're stuck with it um I would propose actually that this goes to um town meeting boat um I think when we're starting to use uh or ask residents for funds um for a a grant match portion um we'll be using Town resources um and it affects the harbor um and we're not tiing off any of the the moing slips that I my understanding is there's a long waiting list for Moorings this is all for transient um boers um and for the scale that this is proposing I you know I think from the linear fee we you're increasing it by 800% or something like that from from current um I know there was an expansion in 2017 2018 um I think for those reasons um for Town funds Town resources the scale of the project um looking at mostly empty dock space year round with 23 new pilings there um I think at you know and we have said in reports that we have um congestion in the harbor um to increase that congestion and possible um pollution along with that I I think this should be a resident decision I I you know the planning board can definitely decide but I do think it would be be beneficial for the town long term if we got more resident inut on it so as far as um the the town funding we haven't had any of the grant funded projects any of the many gr funding Pro projects go before town meeting and unless I'm mistaken other than CPC on tax point then the 32,000 for the fisherman's facility all the other funds come from the lway fund which is funded by morning holders folks on the weight list kak uh weed Park do which is brought in 81,000 after expenses since none of these Pro projects have G before uh as far as congestion goes that part of the harbor where these two projects are had far worse congestion problems far worse before the initial project that was completed in 2019 that part of the harbor is now part of the harbor as I've stated many times in many meetings is probably the best managed part of the harbor um and with the staff out there enforcing the no wake zone which used to be a big problem in this haror it's pretty civilized uh with the traffic coming down through here congestion the biggest congestion issues as far as I'm concerned are out outer harbor we're just going to take comments in a minute um so getting down to um conditions that we might impose um uh I might have misheard you but when we did our site visit and we were walking around and we were talking about fuel um can you just describe what the fuel issue will be well if the if Manchester Marine continues to offer fuel um then will be good we will there will not be a fueling station on the re there's no there's no place to locate tanks uh down at Nano park or Reed Park so if we had a condition as part of the special permit of no fuel um with perhaps a caveat that if none of our marinas uh offer fuel anymore might have to change that but um I certainly wouldn't have a problem with that because that would be one more thing to manage and I frankly can't imagine um another condition out steming from the site walk um folks were describing to the members of the planning board who were there how people who don't have boats um the ways that they come down and enjoy that part of the har now can you just remind us of how that will be enhanced for people who don't have access to the water uh via right so the I think the biggest thing that I heard and have heard since and before that sidewalk is the uh seating area down at the bottom of the ramp if we were to put uh two or three similar not necessarily as large like two or three similar spots where folks could sit on one of those nice little benches like we have uh we come down all the time and see people sitting there oh can we see of course you can it's delightful it's a great place to sit uh people sit there in the evening they sit there morning it's it's wonderful so I I heard that loud C absolutely would have adding those spots so that could be another condition um I have a couple of comments I think um to Chris's question um first of all I think that your your um sorry Laura I didn't see your hands um um the precedent images that you showed I think you use the word a number of times Marina and I don't think this is as as proposed is really a marina um but to think of it as a marina I think does put it as a planning question that may not have been thoroughly vetted um outside of the um Harbor committee as a um and it is and I think we have a jurisdiction of reviews we spent countless hours talking to still signaling about A View From A Highway and here this is a view from um the first entrance that people make to Manchester if they come off the train the the passage to the beach so I think we have jurisdiction over that and I have no idea how to think about it and I can't I think um at the same time it gives people some pedestrian access to the water who might not otherwise have water access um but it is in heavy use if if that's the you know Memorial Day to Labor Day and then vacant largely at least you know 10% occupancy or use this commercial vessels aside for the balance of the of the year um so I was una aware that we were going to have lights along here which I think adds to a condition of Marina like um so I'm not in favor of having lights it's a fairly lit space already most boats have lights um I'm not sure we need lights along a dock that make it look Marina like from the um you know more light pollution um along that area um you can have um utilities without um without having light ballards that are on all night long uh if um so that you know I I I do think we are the word Marina creeping in is not um entirely I okay we're moving to Marina from um tie up space and that's what concerns me the also your precedent studies if you look at them they all have they are very different they are a tie up for um boats that are spending the night and they have a lot of turnaround room they are not in a space that has the same level of of congestion or turning lack of turning radius at low tide that we have in ours and I've been to every one of those harbors and they have you can you can get in and out through the area just off those those spaces so I think that they're useful to see the the piles and I think I'm now convinced thank you that piles are the way that everybody is going with these stocks um so I thank I think those those pictures do show that um so the other thing um can I address the marina question yeah sure so marinas are evidently misspoke Marina is in my estimation because I've worked at maras there are facilities where people come in they K or see them they come in and they have a slip that they pay just like in COC Manchester Marine that's a marina we are not a marina we are a transient facility and just by the the Federal grant they be accepted that's what it must be it cannot become a marina we may not put in and rent one foot season we have lots of requests for it but we absolutely positively cannot so as far as becoming a marina I I I understand it's not a marina as far as a lighting goes you can have power posts with water and electricity without lighting um okay thank you and then I have one other comment which is sort of what Mary alludes to what Mary um was saying and maybe the select board can help us understand this which is the funding here is clearly in the category of funding that would be subject to the MBTA 3A zoning if we um and and so is the intent here if we Grant this permit and you get the chapter 91 and your permits are in place that you do have to wait um or is the intent that this would move ahead quickly in advance of uh a decision by the town on the 3A how how does the timing with the 3A zoning and the grants um so if I if I understand uh the town has until December to decide whether or not it's going to comply I'm not going to apply for grant for the town of Manchester for the fisherman's facility project this November not knowing what's going to happen in December that would be foolish on my part and uh you know these agencies they frown upon you applying for a grant and then saying oh no thank you I would never do such a thing so the as as far as that funding goes that that piece of funding that's the one to pursue for that project it it wouldn't be pursued until the town made its decision the other obviously if it made it one way we would apply the other we not and then my concern with that is that the 3A zoning question is complex and important to the town and now if we're making a large project that may have also itself itself be um not entirely unanimity about its merits then we're we're we're putting a second issue on the MBTA zoning vote you see what I'm saying you know what I mean vote no for NBTA zoning because you vote because you don't want the the dog I think it's complicating things is that crazy or am I I don't know I just worry that that unfortunately these two things are in in course but um okay um so in terms of timing that's helpful um any other questions or comments on the board we're gonna take yeah Laura oh Laura sorry yeah thank you Sarah uh two things one is I have some concern with pushing this to town meeting in general not not the conflation with the 4A but rather just as kind of a precedent for a way to get business done when the town is um trying to Avail itself of of Grants then and you know to to get its business done and sort of taking this out of the boards um so making a kind of exception for this project to take it through town meeting rather than through the boards and the um jurisdiction that the boards are given gives me some hesitation because of that I mean there may be uh you know grant funding windows that don't coincide with town meeting and and those kinds of things so that was just a um a consideration and then the second one is if there are um possible conditions that have been sent with to Mark or that Mark has been keeping tabs on could we go through those tonight and just sort of talk to their merits um if we were to Grant this application thank you yeah why don't we do that I have a list that I've been te okay so um so the first one is we just discussed if fuel dock is not permitted if another fuel dock is operating in the harbor um rafting of boat shall not be permitted uh no boat washing shall be allowed uh the town tree Warden shall be present during trenching through Reed Park to minimize any damage to tree roots uh Disturbed areas of Tree Park shall be restored after construction uh dock lighting shall be lowlevel dark SK Sky compliant lighting and additional seating area shall be provided along the backs side of the dock provided it does not obstruct thingies to maneuver so those are the comments that I've heard that I feel I could kind of write a condition for um the only thing to kind of something you perhaps could do for the dock lighting is to have um them on like a timer button so that if you're entering the dock let's say you go out to dinner it's dark push your button they stay on for five minutes you can get down to your Dock and um to your boat and per periodically since we do are going to have um stanions for um the Water and Electric along certain others of them maybe not every single one but have a a button that again can turn on the light so if I get up and I think a timed motion sensor would take care of that my only question about motion sensors would um waves or depends how they're set up you know the sensitivity would have [Music] to I feel like a motion I guess I'm I'd be inclined to just not have lights on the do on the dock and here's the well I think you know um when you're traveling and you're in peers and dos that you're not necessarily familiar with way down the other end um and I don't know how what the ambient you know the light is because I haven't this Harbor at night so you what what street lights is like some places there's a lot of ambient light that you it doesn't you don't need that but if if liting uh were to be considered allowed or part of this project we can certainly uh ensure that we would get the lowest L possible and potentially fewer post maybe every other post of the lighting with the motion sensor just so that people coming back don't trip but the do shut off and what do people think about the um removal of the finger dock that sticks out from roughly where the current launch or lease boat is um so removing that from the plan that's what you suggested that you be willing to do yeah if if it if it helps people feel better at all about this project that would be one thing that we could take away I feel like it removing that removes three Piers two at the end one or two one it removes one one the end of that and um and it does reduce some of the congestion in that area Okay um Kathy you had something yeah I just um kept a lot on one time on the select board so the select board discussed this project at our meeting last Monday and uh I've been asked to just uh make a couple of quick comments here um so generally we the select board is in favor of this project because we think it's good for the town and our local businesses um some of the key things that we discussed were around how this project can make the harbor more accessible to the residents uh there was a question I believe at the last planning board meeting is this just for voters and the answer is no and so just on a personal note before this meeting six o'clock I walked down to the transient docks there were six boats there and there was a family fishing at the end of the pier um and I talked with the staff that was there and they said a lot of people just like to walk there um and I have witnessed it myself and I have also done it myself um other things that back to the select board comments um we are interested in in that walkway you know from the the Reed Park to connecting the commercial fishing boats we think that would just be a wonderful asset for the town um and we really like the U bump outs that you mentioned and adding the additional seating we thought that would be really great um but most of all we we just believe that this um project would really help our businesses you know we've all witnessed you know people coming from the docks going to the restaurants and anything we can do to help keep our restaurants and shops thriving we believe is good we did not talk about the financials um but I would just Echo what Laura said we this town has a governance mod there are certain things we PID for through taxation when that happens it goes to town meeting if there are self the harbor we're trying to make is self-funding as possible and and other avenues are pursued there so okay very helpful thank you um yeah go ahead Mary um I don't have the drawings in front of me so that walkway from RE from Mass normal um is that in the same area that there's I think the select board somebody some department is discussing that they want to make masal floodable Park so would that be in that area uh so if you were go down be Street and stand right at the the head of looking up the harbor the Fisher here here park come around on the Dr line okay right there then not in but it's so though I think that a walkway is great I don't know why we would add infrastructure in an area that we designate as it's the har so it's not it's not the area in the park it's actually physically har but that ABS the park right if I'm thinking of the right a okay yeah so it would be um and then I guess if we could get some numbers of water usage I just have no idea um and then um I don't know how Town facilities do this with water band so say we had a drought and there was an outdoor water band does that affect this type of um commercial Enterprise or does it not if the town wants to shut off the water to here certainly can uh there's already one of the caveat which can't wash boats so but if people are filling water tanks so that they can go on to their next destination that would be pretty standard practice and if they're G the water that's that's the point there if I could clarify that so the the select board actually makes the decisions on the water bands so last year when or two years ago when we had a water band we had some specific CR criteria um so to answer your question Mary it would depend on what the decision was from the select board after looking at all the information um okay Greg has his hand up so I'm gonna um Greg clarifications things to add thanks s um yeah let me just start with that last one so um typically domestic water consumption is not part of a water band usually water bands impact um outdoor water use typically so a water band would would typically not impact domestic use on a boat as it it's considered domestic use just as a the household is using water we don't ban people from using water in the house um boat water use is is quite low um you don't have uh you're not flushing toilets at a gallon and a half a flush on on a boat typically um so those water consumption levels are are quite low but we can get some statistics on those in the future um regarding the floodable park the whole idea of the floodable park is to create a a a walkway that is um that can accommodate flooding and these these floats being on peed would rise as the water rises so they would be consistent and connect to what is envisioned as a raised walkway around the perimeter of Masco um so that would be consistent with that plan um regarding of funding any any Town funds and that would include Waterway funds if if any of those are going to be used they would have to go before voters ahead of time so it's an automatic vote if we're using any sort of town funds so I don't believe you would want to wait to make your decision but rather know that voters will have a say if Town funds will be involved um depending on how we are successful with with Grant sources or not um and then lastly on on the issue of visuals um I know that people were hoping to see some drawings but I think um your site walk provided the best visuals that you can have because those those pilings are already there um the pilings that will be a long Masco will be um in front of uh the pier the pier is behind but the pilings and so the pier is taller than the pilings and so again your visual your eye is drawn to the to the pier not to the pilings themselves um and then the majority of the PE the pilings for the extended um floats towards the draw bridge they're all along the um the railroad Bank um so again that in the visual impact of that is fairly minimal because people aren't looking um down the tracks they're looking out into the harbor so I think your your visual impact is really that small portion that's on um Beach Street as you look out um in between morsh pier and and the Reed docks um and eliminating that uh the one finger that that buing suggested helps with that that visual impact so I think the visual impact is not as great as perhaps um it might be first uh impression when just list the number pilings but when you put those pilings in the context of where they're located that impact I think is is lessened and again pretty easy to to visualize just by taking a walk out there and seeing those the pilings that are there today so those are the comments I wanted to provide thank you thank you um uh so other comments from the board questions right now yeah you asked another question just wanted to make about the usage of dock vessels I can tell you exactly in the spreadsheet for that right yeah it's on the spreadsheet and so over, 1400 vessels we like 12,068 day visitors 129 visitors for one night and four for two nights seven for three nights and two for four three for five nights so total 1,433 vessel last year I think I had that wasn't a question of mine now we have the answer sorry I a question do us I was one My overall question was just how many docks and how many pilings have been added in the past 10 years to so I know we did a big explans for propers and for to Marin so I was just trying to get a um an estimate of you know how many we've added in the past 10 years so tax Point par Boatyard and now uh Reed Park and then the proposed two projects I don't know how many know that we one two three four projects in the last 10 years uh where we have where we have used and then private entities had use pilings because it's the best yeah I was just trying to get it how much have we expanded in the um okay we'll take public comments um we have heard we have gotten a lot of um very mostly and I think entirely uh positive letters so I'm going to ask people certainly um uh to if you want to add something please if you want to speak if you can add something great um we we I think have heard the sentiment from the harbor committee and and others um so for certainly um feel free to to uh to jump in or to and I'll call on you um first I'll take a comment from uh Sandy and I'm going to limit him to two minutes please hi hi thank you um I think number one if this is associated with something that the state is associating with zoning the town needs to know exactly what it's getting into regarding what agreements will be in place uh as part of 40a I don't think uh many people in town know that and that needs to be articulated clearly with all of the stipulations um secondly as we did with tux point it is critical that we know all of the details of what is going to be going into the dock the materials the lighting the the what it is going to look like the harbor is our town it is all of the citizens it's not like you're approving something for like a a private owned lot and it's impacting everybody um I like the idea to get rid of any pilings that are going to be seen from Beach or masconomo um but I think that we do need to see that and you need to have all of the details you would not be approving a plan without having all of those details just seeing you know a small tiny rendering blueprint does not give a sense of what it is going to do to impact our town there are many non-bo in town we appreciate the harbor and and this will have a severe impact on it thank you thank you we do have a um a fairly comprehensive submission with the special permit that is um available in packet um uh see um uh Paul Stone yes hi I was at your uh walk uh the last time and I just wanted to talk about the lighting uh question that you had and I I want you you to realize that the way that these docks are going to be used is that we're not going to um fill up all the docks and we'll probably uh start using the docks at the uh bottom of Reed Park first and then as more boats come in we're going to fill up the end of the do because we don't want the kids running up and down the do anyway so as far as the lighting goes the lighting is a safety issue and what if we were able to just shut off some of the lights when we're not using that part of the dock good suggestion great thank you that's good suggestion um uh Kurt I'll take a comment from Kurt hi Kurt fataka seven Bennett Street um I just want to say I'm I'm in full favor of this I think it enables greater public access to the harbor it's obviously good for Commerce everybody said that I think it adds vibrancy to the harbor you know more people come around and if a majority of it's funded by grants um it seems to me like almost a no-brainer I understand there might be aesthetic things with lighting and everything that you know we need to be careful with that but uh overall I think it's a great great thing for the harbor great thank you Kurt um Sarah Pierce hi Sarah pierce my friends street thank you very much yeah I just I wanted to um just make a comment about Laura tenny's comment about just doing business and some things just need to get done well this is a huge um impact on the town changing the harbor the harbor views adding lighting so I'm going to reiterate my concerns with that also I think anytime that taxpayers are asked to do any sort of a match it would be reasonable to put it before a town vote we don't know what kind of funding or grants would be getting from the MBTA it hasn't been voted on yet and to make such an elaborate change to the harbor I think it would be really irresponsible to do that without a visual rendering so basically those are my comments and concerns and I really hope that the board um would put together something or find the funds to do a visual rendering it's incredibly important to Residents um all throughout Manchester thank you thank you sir sir one yes there is the only connection between this Harbor plan and the M zoning right is that if we don't pass zoning we won't get Grant funds just want make that absolutely thank you um any other comments do ask question um has the have we have the police to weigh in on this at all and again just because it's a expanded um new neighborhood down there um if you could have you say we have about five or seven if you add adding 22 that could be you know 30 people 30 families 30 whatever um so I'm assuming the police monitor the harbor correct yeah so the police and the harbor Department work in absolute conjunction uh together and as a matter of fact U our new Deputy Harbor Master Andy is headed off to the academy September 9th he gets out next early next middle next winter he will be a police officer himself a full police officer on the Harbor sta there's no it's a perfect ductail between the harbor we are working we work very closely yesterday during the festivities at Sand Co before during and after there's there's absolutely no issue about security the police department and that part of the yeah I'm just asking as part of the special permit that we would hear from the police chief or this yes so his his his signature of support is actually on the letter of support for the fisherman's facility because he is a lob so we have his signature support of but as as a fisherman not as well I would say so just as I'm just as a planning board member we asked the police chief or the fire chief for their input on projects so that's what I asking the other thing I'll just follow up is at the last meeting we did hear somebody who had um concerns about this um from a historic perspective and I did forward the information to um the Rosemary Costello at the historic commission so um and let her know that we were um taking comments um oh there she is um any comments um my only comment is um we do not have this area in the historic district and it is not designated uh historic byway or scenic view at this time so it's not to say that it couldn't be in the future but it is not currently um under any kind of protection or designation or uh celebration for its historic character okay thank you um I do have one other question and that is I mean oh never mind it's on okay um so I think we have heard from everybody on this um are we ready to um uh what I would suggest is that we close the hearing on this um and then we have discussed draft draft comments and then at the next meeting we would review the uh and finalize the special permit um conditions okay so I'll do just like it did for L send out a yeah with these conditions and if anyone has any additional conditions okay great um so I move we close public hearing second um I'll take a roll call Laura Tenny yes she waving um Sue fil brick yes bony yes Sarah Katon votes yes Gordon Brewster yes and Mary holy yes okay thank you um so that's what's going to happen we're going to um get a draft of conditions we will take it up uh at the August 12th meeting okay um so now we're going to talk about the conditions for the tux Point we've already closed the public hearing for tux Point um hearing and see if I can pull up the was that meeting yes um um so I think that um well Mark you want to um walk us through you want me to pull this up um let's see let me just pull it up my computer so I can read it um but basically um here we go so kind of hard to read yeah so um so basically you want me to go to conditions yeah so we uh um so I have uh five conditions um the first one is uh any damaged or missing railings and trim at the runder shall be replaced with historic with the historically accurate Replacements uh the wooden number two the wooden section of railings at the top top of the ramp to the dock she'll be replaced with historic mill work um that had been replaced with 2x4s and stuff um the sides of the elevated ramp leading to the Rotunda shall be faced with granite block to match the existing Pier so weer they're going to raise that up and so it's already Granite um so then an architect landscape architect she'll be part of the consultant team to ensure the Rotunda structure MW work details Landscaping sight improvements are appropriate to the historic nature and public use of the site and then um I modified this fifth one just a little bit from what I sent out I said a 90% plan set shall be submitted to the planning department for review to ensure compliance with this approval prior to the project going out to bid that's slightly different than what I'm showing on the screen but yes it's slightly different based on some comments from Public Works comments I would suggest Mark in there I think the intent is to try and duplicate the duplicate exactly the architectural details right from from the existing building so that it's a little it's a a little more firm and direct language than you used in so far here y should be replaced with historically accurate replacement duplicate which which that might be appropriate too but it should be replaced in duplicate in fact yeah you could have the same design like current standards I think are going to require that those be a little bit taller but it doesn't mean that they can't so we're talking about architecturally the the section whether it has a slope at the top or whatever the whatever the section in detail is we use that same detail here to and then accommodate with handels guard fine will all the railings be replaced throughout the facility oh okay so that I wasn't clear about because I wrote any damage to missing railings so it really should say something the replacement railings shall be um and uh shall keep with the original shall be yeah keep replicate the the original uh words s they big sucks okay and then Mary had some um uh scribers errors and um sections that should be get corrected so you'll give Sarah I had a comment on on one of the conditions just one word change TR Laura yeah uh number three change the word faced to constructed okay great thank you Nate you have a comment on the conditions yeah I guess I was just looking for further clarification on number five on what that really means am I is it to be submitted for approval or just submitted because ultimately it you know when we're trying to define the bidding timeline you know so I I rewarded it so so it's clear that it's not for um just to review to make sure it's in compliance with this approval in other words the design of the railings shows a same historic thing so it'll be FR of a like an administrative review of course I'll ask the board if they want to come in and look at those they certainly so but it's it's not for a new hearing a new planning Board review or anything like that okay so you know we can set like a you know two week or you know a two- week limit on from when I send to receiving comments back because you know I think in the you know when we try to set up the bidding schedule you know that that's something we need to consider and when we're going for bids and um you know we're hopeful that we can you know we have received all the permitting back so we're hopeful that we're going out to bid this fall for construction potentially you know over the win into the spring so just you know if it's two weeks versus a longer duration then you know that that affects how we approach approach it and Nate there's no lighting I think we talked about this in the site walk right there's no lighting additional the structure right or okay yep nothing just uh yeah matching just raising it great just okay um Mary are your um any substantive comments that we want to make sure we get um well the bylaws referenced are incorrect so the first one um pursuant to section 4.1.1 J it's actually 4.2.1 what did you say 4.2 4 . 2. f. one so that's the use table so we're referencing the use table correct that's where we have check so the use table is where we have the chapter 91 stuff um and then on the last page for the appeals it says to to reference 6.7.8 point2 we don't even have a bylaw like that that so it must be in section 12 it's in section 12 oh and then there's just some typing uh typos do you want those now or no you can and just out of you know you think I would know this by now but is tux Point considered the harbor well uh tux point is certainly over the harbor the uh Rota block but the facility is under I just because it says in here public access to Manchester Harbor and I always think of the harbor as the haror definitely I think appeals are part of state law maybe 12.6 usually decisions appeal 12.87 and it's should be bolded but it's not page 118 very the very end yes okay um are we ready to take a vote on this um or do we want to wait for our final version next next time is it important for you Nate to get this done tonight I don't I don't think so I mean we're moving forward uh you know with our current design um and like I said we're trying to go out to bid this fall um so all right I'm gonna suggest is that we take a vote on this um draft um with the reserving the right to with the final draft next presented in our packet next time to uh do that make you nervous voted it's done are we to the few blanks and it get signed okay whenever you're available I think we're ready to vote sure okay Chris makes motion sure I'll move that we approve the special permit for the Reconstruction or elevation of the road oh and and approval of site plan how about um the special permit and site plan review of the application for the existing Timber Pier at tux Point Public dock facility and Associated site for improvements at 17 Tex Point that's a okay sure so moved um I have a second second um any more discussion um all in uh I guess I'll take a roll call vote uh Laura Tenny yes Sue filber yes Chris only yes Sarah Katon votes yes yes Mary yes um so it's a unanimous vote um thank you um um great we will uh you're welcome to stay for the rest of our meeting thank you all Geor be fascinating thanks great so um uh Kathy and uh Jeff and you got just here for you have some other um well there was an agenda item discuss funding for NBTA studies analysis so that is GNA be discussed and that's what I was planning to stay for okay Mark we'd like to discuss the funding for MBTA or Chris okay intensity for change is a projection on based on our zoning proposal U what is the likelihood of units to be built out over time this uh estimate is uh the cost is $99,000 this will be completed by the same company that is working with Emily uh rkg under her contract and um so that is the propensity for Change and the um fiscal impact analysis is I believe that's $166,000 and that would do create the analysis to see what the increased cost is to the town provide Services offset by the cost of or the revenue that the town would receive from um real estate taxes and other uh fees on the development so um that would be uh $116,000 for the S may ask a question of course so the idea of propensity for change took me a little while to figure out what that meant but is is someone now going to analyze what the bylaw changes would mean to the town in terms of development of the properties in those two various areas exactly so if we were wow if we were let's say um we had a lot of undeveloped land that we were zoning and that's was the area for our high density Zone would be a higher propensity for that to be developed because land owners could just sell it off to developers as they as they well it'd be easy but the the second study the impact study would have a likelihood of a greater impact to the town because it might be built in big chunks yeah might get a 100 units and 150 and another 100 right until you got to whatever number so we need 558 I believe so you would but if you are doing along the lines of what we're doing which is zoning areas with lots of that's already developed with lots of houses lot of multifam buildings already scattered amongst that big apartment complexes also in there so likelihood of that changing is any significant number all at once is really very low so it will be a just a slow incremental change over time so this company has built a model and studied other rezonings in order to develop a method in order to uh kind to to um evaluate based on a community's zoning proposal what's likely to happen well if be forgive me for asking remember when you and I sat for a couple hours we did actually some drawings of what it would mean for X plot of land with their property but know is that what they would do they would do that evaluation over time the likelihood this would happen yeah I don't they don't sit there with each property and sketch out what happens like we did um but they have a method to kind of evaluate based on um how big the property is are or how many Lots there are in a certain Zone and what's the buildout analysis show for the maximum number of units what will happen over time so interesting yeah have they had a track record they just been doing these since the MBTA zoning or have they done them over the years as um build outs that I can't answer that question I don't know that who can answer it I have a I can show in a little bit um so I first heard about uh the propensity for Change Model when I went to a dayong training out in Worcester um and the um person from rkg who supervises uh these studies gave a presentation um and I thought it would be helpful because um I mean I'm not good with all of the terminology and the methodology but if you look at um an example which you can actually on Nom's town website they PID for every study you could possibly have like they have a lot more money than we do they have 32,000 people um but um so I printed out their propensity for Change Model and what I found is interesting was that for the SE of their proposed zoning which I mean it's not the same as ours but the section of their zoning that includes properties that are already existing um the model uh determined a potential buildout of 12% of the Phil full build unit capacity um now obviously they need much more units than we do but that's helpful you know if is it worth $99,000 to come to that I don't know what they do is they use the Assessor's uh value of each parcel Uh current market value and then they determine based on um you know current construction costs and and the weather not people like to build in your town and just the all of those kind of factors that come up with the Delta between um the possibility of someone uh being able to make I think they use a 15% profit uh yeah I'm just looked at this this afternoon but I think it's 15 you know if the developer can make a 15% profit then it gets a certain score if if there's not the possibility for that you know over a certain period of time you know it there's little uh chance that it's going to be developed according to their model um so I thought it was interesting it might be helpful but it is $99,000 and do they include um so we haven't yet decided if it's a 10% affordable or 20% affordable we received that okay so do they will they model both well they model both scenarios whether uh didn't we already vote that fund no would they model the prop because it seems to me that the propensity to change I think they did do that vary depending on how much affordability is required true because your profit is lower on if you have a 20% yes yeah y 20% affordability they'll look at different scenarios they yeah okay the other thing the other thing they do is when you look at the impact the fiscal impact they assume that affordable housing will have slightly more children slightly larger family sizes and that impacts the cost of services that the time there's not a big change but there is okay yeah so that one they you know they interview the school they look at the class size I mean I just looked at that this afternoon it's 89 students only 89 students in our senior class this year yeah um they at they look at the school they interview people at the school they um fire department uh police department um they look at the tax rate um I didn't review this one quite so closely but all the town departments um well certainly we've heard that people want to have this kind of analysis um and I'm think I think the concern is there's a lot of input to challenge and challeng so so it's plus or minus it you know I think it's it's really helpful because so for example we got a letter from somebody who said oh well each of these units is going to have two School CH and so um let's say the average unit for an apartment is um four you're going to now have a study that says based on you know apartment development in the Northeast point4 children per unit so maybe it's Point reality it becomes 0. five or or3 because we're an absolent community and people are going to buy um units of rent units for a lot of money so you get um a slightly different number but it'll focus the conversation on a range that's more focused in reality than misinformation Scare Tactics or um people just guessing so I I forgot to answer the initial question which was have they done studies outside of MBT a zoning and yes I haven't read those but they've been doing um both the propensity for change and the um economic impact studies um for other types of uh Town changes okay um and where would the funding come from we have we have um a fund with $25,000 in it we'll also be trying to um uh see if we can't get funding from Mass Housing Partnership they fund uh uh project uh 3A uh 3A studies 3A studies I don't know whether these two studies kind of fall under that but trying to find out summertime it's hard okay so is that 20 I'm sorry um is that 25,000 planning board or is that the budget we have Tiffany it's plenty oh okay I mean if there's extra funding in that budget we make that available as necessary but we need to ensure that we're not done with Emily services at this point um uh obviously wait to hear back from the uh e hlc on the review so there'll be more work to do also so I'm going to meet with her to try and um go through our proposal to um try and edit it uh to get rid of some of the redundancies with other sections of the Sony bylaw and um then we'll have some more modeling to do um uh perhaps so we need to keep so we need to have some we need to yeah I can't just spin that out the whole that's correct so so U we should be voting to take it out of the planning board um line item and if I can get use other funding that would be ideal okay so I'm sorry is there other funding for this 3A um is there any other budget for that or is it still all planning board yeah so yeah I don't believe there's any extra special line item for or there was and there's not an unspent line your existing grant for the so so this would leave us $1,000 do to do all that other work that is kind of essential work unless we can get a grant well we still there's still money in the budget carried over 6,000 what was there 6,000 carried no there's more okay there's more funds carried over in the budget that's paying Emily okay um to continue to pay for her Services I think it was 50,000 the side for that in a grant and so we will continue to be able to continue to pay through town meting so Mark you're saying that there is $25,000 available to pay you know without jeopardizing within our the planning board budget but that leaves us $1,000 essentially nothing if we have other work to do but it seems to me that this is our this is kind of what's in front of you that's important to move forward so okay I have a question and a comment um when can we anticipate the 20% affordable housing analysis I know when first was brought up she said it would take like a week or two and it's been a long time yeah um I did not get answer for that question I would say hopefully we'll get that prior obviously you need to get a prior to the the EC's um comments back on our proposal so we'll know what to finalize so hopefully um it'll be before the end of August or M August even so yeah because I even in the application it says that if they're re if eohc is reviewing it without that study it could change their their review could change so kind of open ourselves um and then my comment is I would recommend um I think we need these studies um I think we should try to get an independent firm to do it I think if we're looking to rkg who is kind of a state sanctioned consultant it just becomes one big incestous loop of of um data so I think if we can get somebody that's not already linked to the MBTA 4A I think that would benefit the town and would put more people at ease that we're getting accurate data do you have any company in mind an alternative no and I'm I mean I'm sure there's a lot I mean these things happen all the time for financial analysis so there's no way rkg is the only game in town no they're not the only game but they've been around for years represent everyone from from both sides of the street you know the developer end when they propos large projects to represent who are analy I mean MC probably does these studies as well for money well that's just the thing bucket of people like I mean you can definitely see towns that have used independent and I just I well rkg is independent I mean you know um so I I think um you know any any planning firm that you get to do um fiscal analysis is done work for both sides whether it's government and for um you know private so I didn't yeah developers it was my comment it wasn't to be attacked back by people how wrong I am it was my comment no I understand your comment but I mean I think rkg is as reputable as any other firm and right now otherwise we uh they're under contract under Emily's contracts so order so as opposed to so this is rkg this is not Emily's firm well it's it's say it's a joint venture it's a joint it's a jointure it is a little bit more it is a bit further than Emily um is there I'm sorry is there a reduct is there some sort of uh cost benefit you R reduced cost because they have an affiliation do you think um yeah well they have um indicated in my discussions with them that the price that we're getting for these studies is is far cheaper than what some other companies will be charging because I kind of I asked about the cost because it was brought up a few months ago and to Mary's point about deliverables in terms of schedule do we have a a deliverable schedule on this not yet but we would have to we make sure we would have to well we would in order to get it done we would have to like vote tonight and give the optimization and move forward as quickly as possible Mark if we were not to use rkg what would the process be we would probably have to put it out to like an RFP out and to see we would not make town meeting get it done in order for town meeting so we wouldn't have the information and why wouldn't we have to do an RFP directly G because we already have uh Emily and rkg under contract so it's just an amendment to the contract um do you either of you have input on this um I previously stated at a select board meeting that um I had sent a note to Chris and Mark requesting that we move forward with some type of impact analysis even getting started you know aside from a consultant we have information from various Town sources already and even if we started by compiling all of what we have in one document I think it would help answer at least some of the questions that the residents have um that's a low cost way to get started while you make your decision about the broader impact um well I'll take a motion to approve the um I'll take the uh the two studies the impact and the um economic feasibility analysis for 15,000 and the propensity to change model um for 9,000 from Inus Associates with the work and rkg no it's oh CR and it's 16,000 for the fiscal impacted out and 9,000 for the if they change it was 15,000 before was 15,000 for the economic analysis which is going um which is for affordability okay oh okay I guess I'm not looking at the way thing so well I guess hearing that finish the motion part before we no let's make sure we get the right motion um no no no clarify my my comment was I'm a little worried if we don't have the time table yeah um that will be useful to us well maybe we'd make our motion to approve these subject to uh their ability to complete the studies by a whatever date a said date whatever that date is but tonight so I believe they said the fiscal impact is is going to be kind of by the end of October won't be fast they they are buried with projects so be the end of October for the fiscal they can hopefully get the propensity the change done soon but they didn't give me a end of October seems that doesn't yeah like it doesn't help us not comfortable with that um the propensity to change do we know when they have that no done so perhaps we can reach out to some other firms that might have capacity that aren't doing all state um analysis as a suggestion and I just it's it's baffling to me that so how much should we are we paying Emily 50,000 and then we're tacking on another 40,000 to do the real financial piece of it and that's a lot so now this is almost $100,000 Endeavor to get some data right before we're going to vote I thought that when Emily was hired that she was doing a fiscal piece to the analysis well I don't think that was I don't have her scope right here but that was initial scope but I do think that we need to have the data before we that I mean timing if they can't get it to us before we go to a vote then that's not really very helpful well and it's not even go for a vote I mean we getting the information before right so that people people can understand it and and question the assumptions and all of that um so um I think without I mean I think we have to make a vote that if we vote to move ahead with us I think we have to have some sort of condition that it's can be delivered in a timely way um otherwise it's is that time frame s when do you need it when do you need September 15th that'd be great if we get up by September 15th September 15th Mark is your charge I should do it myself spare time right I mean I I'm make I don't know that was a question September end of October no first of October well what thing we can do is Cassie's suggestion which is just to take what we have and compile it into a single document and that you know that and we could put in a little of our own time more time um to you know we can go talk to the school we can talk to I we could do some of the pieces of of this um second study the fiscal impact analysis we have the memo from the DPW about water sewer we can certainly talk to the school I mean a danger in that no there's a danger in but I also we could also look at like the Needum studies and make some assumptions based on where they got their data I don't know because their districts are different from our I mean they would I we could yeah I think then well absolutely but um I guess the question for you Mark is do we need to vote it tonight or is there a way to get it to get dates from her and um and once we have the dates I mean we could have a we could have a virtual meeting on Thursday to vote it if we have dates that are acceptable we do the reverse vote it get the date and that would be the tested approval right at that point so we don't have to meet again yeah that's EV like selling stock at a certain lot I was just gonna all I can think of is when we got married we had a spreadsheet about who was gonna come and we had a percentage and everybody's you know the percentage you either came or didn't come you didn't have come but you're right on with the number which is sort of the point right you know you're kind of a little bit off on this parcel a little bit off on this but let me tell you when you when we were when you when we were planning a wedding many years ago can I ask you a question about the you have the results of that propensity study yes what were the results it was so they there are lots of you should look at it um basically 20 no more than 20 5% of what was approved would be buil but it's it so they if they said they needed a th 200 would have been built at the end of a period of 25 years 20 years I don't remember their time some duration they have a duration so is that is that work in our favor or against the approval of this thing I think it's about F4 or again I think it's about people information understanding but they're going that there's that there is a range between you know zero and yeah not 500 I mean some people think that that the result is this will do 5509 exactly new units of housing exactly additional additional new units of housing build and that that's not the case it's probably 300 ah if that and then of that 300 maybe 25% of it gets built over 10 years yeah so unless you do this study you're never going to have the facts to support that well even when you do theud you're not gonna have the facts you're G to have yeah you have best guess but you have a much better guess but still it's it's to that point so it's worthwhile having the study done much as I hate spending money is the um economic analysis um something that we might hold do the get the propensity to change study moving and the economic analysis is a little bit we the fincom has done economic analysis for SLV they did an economic analysis I know that we're going to get something about sell signaling it's a very different kind of thing um where you know they they've with SLV they thought about how many kids were going to be in a school and how much cost that was going to be and how many you know those kinds of things so you make a point a very good point which is a propensity will tell us roughly how many new additional units to expect right and then from that we can probably come up with our extrapolate from that at least we could come up with something yeah yeah I kind of I do feel like we could come up with a decent economic impact you know I mean I feel like we could maybe do some analysis with MPC that says what in a town like or you know we have existing homes with existing numbers where you where we know how many students are in a household in a household but cath 21 Pine um just to piggyback on on what you said um Sarah if we ask fincom for their financial advice you do the propensity for change you get some real numbers there to base the assumptions on fincom already has like I said done the analysis and they are likely to include those other things they already did so you'll have a real integrated feedback to give to the town and I think that's what the town is asking actually ask them to start working on it now because you because the inputs they have we have a lot of stuff already it's just about getting it together so the residents don't have to look in 10 different places but I think the propensity to change is really the really important piece I'll tell you what I'd like to make a motion to that we move ahead with the propensity to change study at a cost of $99,000 uh conditioned on it being presented to us by September 15th I'll s that okay any other discussion no and this is for Anis Associates and RK this is R okay um I think the fiscal impact analysis is highly important for residents to understand if there's a uh Financial impact if there's a tax rate increase impact if there's um I you know things can be Patchwork together but I think it needs to be in my opinion professionally done um so um why don't you find out who else we might ask or we why don't we all think about that I mean I can ask MC and to do what just to do the economic analysis do the econom well and again my point would be to get away from the mapcs well I'm simply saying as one data point MPC is a cost effective data point and they do a lot of these studies um I'm not always a fan either but um but that it is it is another alternative and and perhaps we might other find other Alternatives yes other alternative firms okay so we have a motion to move ahead with a propensity to change the deadline um of September 15 may I be um can I off friendly amendment that we have a a strong working draft by September 15th with a final draft by October 1st sure perfect um because having a working draft gives us an opportunity to review it and to make change you know and to understand what they're oh except the am okay um great um do we know when T meeting is g to be no um okay any other discussion um all in favor yes okay um opposed great uh 6 Z thank you thank you Mark for that um okay um thank you for coming you good I have one thing s before we move on this is is this the kind of rendering we want to see yeah that's what I want to see that is it as simple as this yeah that's BR can I can I do can you do it no I can't I can't when when I left the business we we used to do stuff with proposals that would look like you're living in the building but you want me to call Nate tomorrow and and talk to F this or what this is a really simple rendering this is not magic we just want that view with the with the the wars in there maybe maybe boths too but can I can I on my own there may be a cost associated with I'll find out we're kind of sounds like we're kind of moving ahead toward um that no longer being it sounds to me like we are moving ahead toward um we don't need this what do people think at this point I don't think he need it's me I think residents would like to see it but yeah well the thing is we can't really use planing board funds for something that so I mean it would kind of be an appropriate to do so you know if if they had talked about doing well if we took a photograph and we that's all this is yeah and we kind of they could do that inexpensively but um they didn't bring that forth so um so maybe I can we can between the two of us we I'm just going to jump on our first thing in the morning Mark before you're here I'll be there yeah we can we can perhaps even if it's a rough visual I think it yeah just a simple image I think yeah okay great thank you um okay um discussion liaison committees um I'll start the harbor management committee is still uh struggling to reassemble um I did try to get our consultant uh you uh Urban Harbor's Institute to come we're trying to get her them to come to to a uh Sunny Saturday uh mid high tide sand dollar Cove event Sunday music Sunday would have been I tried to get it to come on Saturday or Sunday um I'm hoping that there are pictures um I tried to get um you know there were 200 boats in sand Co on Sunday but it was um wonder what no wonder I don't go I go the other way um but it was quite anyway um so we're trying to get um the problem is you know she's going to come out of Boston and you you really to see you really have to kind of see it to believe it um yeah and uh so if anybody knows if anybody has pictures of you know a drone F footage or something it was all very peaceful and festive but there were some medical emergencies oh were they yeah yeah so is that is that saying it as a positive or A negative I'm simply saying it as a fact I think it depends on your perspective I think um but it's simply in terms of Harbor use in terms of anchoring on the bottom in terms of uh waste and um human waste and you know sounds great and um and safety issues and uh a you know navigation issues I think um our Urban Harbor Institute has taken they the Consultants have taken a lovely boat tour on a Tuesday afternoon which is quite different than uh Sunday so at this point um that's so anyway that's sort of the next action item is to down here on one of those days which is hard anyway um okay uh CPC so we had our organiz meeting at the chatter house next week and nothing really happens until September when we now the availability of gr funds and ask for applications it's going to happen during the fall okay and I did learn something about CPC because somebody asked me about a CPC and in general we don't take anything off cycle that's correct okay which I guess I kind of um so yeah uh downtown Improvement so are you looking for an update what we any updates yeah oh it's it's not uh basically the meetings are uh rehashing from other other groups we learn about what DPW is doing we're doing a little bit on the downtown improvements the literally the downtown improvements changing curve lines and putting that kind of stuff in but that's all tied up for a tight knot with what's happening at the cul replacement and U and then we have an update on the NBTA and what we're doing here so it's in the Reed Park mors Reed Park yeah the whole the whole thing just general discussion it's not so much opinion or or direction we don't come with conclusions okay affordable housing trust so we had a meeting a week ago and uh we uh had a sort of a conference call with a developer in Boston a nonprofit developer called POA which is Preservation of affordable housing Inc and they're a national developer based in Boston um and the discussion was basically how do we entice a developer to come in and uh repackage our um public housing units to make them uh self-sustain and uh much improved and uh the problem is the size of the projects is so small uh that we need to find some other site that we can throw into the mix so we can get over a 100 renovated and new units Al together the MBTA zoning is helpful in that regard but it's not going to be enough so we're looking at other sites one of the possibilities is some land on standpipe Hill which is where the water tower is that was declared Surplus by town meeting back in the 90s and a development plan was put together for it which fell apart at the end uh but maybe it can be resurrected as part of this so we're looking at that as possibility and if anybody knows of any other acres of land besides it's the DPW site on Les Street we'd be very happy to think about it okay much no there's not much land no we' bled I've looked at every parel over 10 acres um okay high school high school midle school we've walked on every confed um MBTA task force what side W so so you want to say anything about that um you know we just had took a big step tonight in getting this for change study done um we are going to try uh making videos on each of the proposed districts so so that we can uh present them more personally to um down residents so people understand what we're talking about I'll put them on the website like you know just very short walk around the streets show the homes you know these addresses these streets this is this District um so great hopefully we'll do those next month okay um and we're gonna have a joint try to have a Joint Task Force planning board meeting probably early August one of the about maybe middle August one of the Thursdays the Thursdays to discuss maybe review an edited version where it's more streamlined version um of the bylaw as well as um you know it's been discussed that perhaps Newport Park may be disqualified so I'm making some adjustments to the pin Street district and a couple of the zoning prameters to make up for those units I think I got it figured out Richard's modified a model I have to meet with him and see how my changes fit in the model and what out okay so sort of a contingency plan yes exactly so I reviewed the the comments that um Jonathan made I didn't see that in there was this a separate conversation with him where did we get that feedback uh well from Jonathan's comment had to do more with the definition of the statute as opposed to how eohc um U defines it though because um the way the language of the statute to find M housing would possibly ex exclude Newport park because it's designated the senior house so so and so is that it would also excludes portable housing the same definition so it's a kind of a convolution so does he read it differently from Emily yes well so Emily is going off of eoh C's interpretation okay so eohc this advising her that it's okay because our zoning the actual zoning bylaw doesn't restrict and so uh you know so she is going off of that that's what their rules are that they adopted so that's why she feels that we're okay so interestingly enough I happened to hear the Secretary of eohc speak I don't have my notes but it was quite interesting and one of the things he said is we want the MBTA zoning I think he basically said um you know MBTA zoning housing for families and Sen and then the next breath you said seniors we you know we need affordable housing and we need housing for seniors seniors are our most growing needy population um and he said them all in the same sentence um so if you were listening to him you would draw the conclusion that um he his opinion in a casual uh you know it was like a Fireside check kind of format um not with his lawyers present um you would conclude that that um all these objectives are important which I think we can all agree um and that they would that the the MBTA zoning can meet all of those objectives so this is a difference of opinion between the AG and or maybe it's not the it doesn't sound like the AG because the AG is only going to review it as it um you know applies to the state law not the 3A law you know other state laws the state constitution blah blah blah blah so it's not like they have a different interpretation of the law from eoh hlc I I think it's just Jonathan being super literal I mean I haven't worked with him very much but so it maybe just his you know different lawyers interpret yeah get three lawyers in the same firm and they I'll give you a slightly different opinion so okay so yeah and I think it's all talking about the same thing but Mark I was surprised at the email saying that under the MBTA zoning you can age restrict which the law clearly says you can't age restrict so if you can age restrict what else can you do after you've passed the zoning do you know of other we can't as our zoning can't be restricted correct and the law says that it has to be suitable for families with no age restrictions do all you're saying the developer come in and say I want to develop under the MBTA overlay zoning which says it can't be age restricted but then they could age restrict yes I just don't understand that so the law says that zoning cannot require it zoning doesn't say that therefore no one can require it just our zoning C so if a developer wanted to build senior housing or affordable housing or any kind of other restricted housing as long as it was multif family housing then it's okay under our zoning but the law that we reference in our zoning says you can't age restrict the the law says that the zoning bylaw cannot restrict that's the distinction we can't tell a developer you have to age restricted but the developer could say I want age restricted I think the only danger then I so that my my other question with that so then so then it also could be one bedrooms right sure okay so wow so I guess I've just never seen a zoning bylaw that we don't have to abide by no we so how do we we have to abide by our zoning bylaw can I try to ask your question with a different way because I have the same question I think the question the if I own up one parcel that I believe I can put multif family housing I'm entitled to put five units on with this is only bylaw the question is if I if I'm putting five units of senior housing does that entitle me to put five units on my parcel because it's senior housing or one bedroom or Studios um that therefore don't meet the families with children requirement so am I allowed to the five units on if they're all C you're not build you're not building uh housing that can only be rented or sold to families with children You're Building housing units right so the housing units don't necessarily have to be three bedrooms or more but they they would be allowed to be they're allowed to be but they could be less than that so I could go so he's saying build a Triple Decker right on three three units I can make them big units and I could unrestrict them or I could have a nice house of my own and add two units and add two small one bedrooms and rent them out but I have three units okay so so the question the the requirement is is not that the added unit must be three bedrooms or or age unrestricted age but that it may be a that you that your right to build in this zone is up is is housing for anybody anybody and I think that's the intent is that okay we we say you have to unrestrict it and communities will get a wide range of things but if we say oh you can restrict it then communities will go oh all we want is Senor right so and that's what everybody needs every Community needs a wide range of housing right you need the one bedrooms for single people or older people you you need um you know three bedrooms for people with children so um so even though the law says shall we don't have to do it no the shell is that our zoning can't require it that's the shell it's not a shell develop into okay so this that opens up a whole new world to me um and oh so what email were you referring to Mary um when you said the email that said blah blah blah so I had some questions to Mark and he responded that it could be it could be senior housing age restricted and I had never ever ever heard that at an MBTA task force meeting that we could age restrict um we can't age well no that we could a developer could develop under the MBTA zoning but age restrict have senior housing and then I guess my next question is since we've already had this discussion at the planning board and you have not had the pleasure of this discussion um is senior housing is a broad umbrella so can somebody now come potentially if this is voted in come in and say I want to do um again I'm all for it you know I this is exactly what we need but assisted living senior housing which is a different animal which has commercial components to it you know again got outside factors to it that is not strictly family housing so can they do that by right I think they probably could do it in the LCD because commercial uses are allowed um and multif family uses would be allowed but can they do it at Newport Park could they do it at mors court could they do it that's a good question it's happened it's a good question I don't know the answer because that is thou saying you know all these things that we wanted to do a senior bylaw for that had to be highly regulated now saying develop developer could do it by right but in terms of if we think about it as propensity to happen um M Newport Park is a Housing Authority so that's a different Beast right yeah um powderhouse Boulevard may possibly could be but but um the sort of for it to happen in the districts that we put forward with accept accepting the LCD in terms of a multi-unit you know with a staff component and a recreation facilities are these are I mean again I we can all sit here and say oh won't happen but it's our job to say if it could happen where could it happen and residents need to understand this because again this these types of things have not been discussed I don't think that could happen having a commercial component right why not see if you say senior housing is allowed so it depends what you mean by assistant living there if you if you Assisted Living can be just people living in apartments and getting Services brought into them and that can happen anywhere in any house in town right and we've already had these discussions so we don't need to you know again attack Mary for whatever I say it's more of senior housing facilities um we clearly stated there would be areas in town that we didn't think that they would fit into the fabric of the neighborhood and that was you know we had large discuss questions about this and so if there is a a chance of that happening under the MBTA zoning I think it's important for that to be a public discussion period okay so maybe what would be helpful is let's let's leave it it's getting late and um the if there's a parcel that the LCD we should look at the zoning and understand if a commercially operated um for you know nursing home would be allowed and then LCD would certainly be one location where you have enough space but I guess the question is which other spaces would actually make would actually be possible before we get too worried about it so well and then my last question with that would be what other scenarios should we think of I mean I don't know of any off hand but again I didn't know we didn't have to this was a paper bylaw and then things could happen that were on paper but could happen so I had no idea I mean I thought an overlay bylaw was you had to abide by the actual bylaw you we are abided by the actual bylaw well it's um we're we're going to get some input from the AG and from the more to come from HL see um so public comment see none um approval of minutes for June 24th ready to I read them and move that be approved okay have a second read a while ago sure second okay any comments um all in favor okay uh four I'm see no I have to abstain okay uh bordon abstained on that um okay the last uh other matters not anticipated by the chair actually um I should have anticipated this but um and I'm not I'm just putting it out there for thought right now but um Peter actually uh mentioned to me that he thought it would be useful to have a um Retreat type meeting where we had a little bit more free flowing conversations they can't be they still have to be public but doesn't need to be in this room doesn't necessarily need to be uh reported so think that think a little bit about what topics we might do we've talked about it other times um had planned to do one and follow to get through CST um and um I know we are really busy but um we might so if you have feedback on that idea let me know um good idea great the um upcoming meetings we're going to meet on the 12th I think s you're here soon 12 is good um we'll probably have to chair that meeting um to uh finish the um the uh two doc projects and finish some of the input on the as long as I don't like have someone share their screen or anything have this I don't think they'll be sharing the screen he can mark it Gail can you can do okay and then um I think we're going to try to take the 26 off but still hold it please least we will let you know um but that's the intent and then try to finish up sell signaling on September 9th right before we got into the um MBTA zoning and Retreat so um with that I'll take them any other comments sure okay any uh do I have a second second all in favor yes to be super secondary okay thank you everybody oh I one other thing I meant to just uh look is the Senate did approve the housing Bond bill it's got in conference