##VIDEO ID:y9k6ZYgcyyI## um I'm going to call the meeting of the planning board on a August 12th to order um we'll take a roll call vote Mary Foley here de Morton here s's here here here laa here Sarah here sort of sort of's good enough for us um so everybody knows Mark Resnik is sick um he's going to try and log on but um I just spoke with him a bit ago I'm not very optimistic doesn't sound good um so I would like to do the approval not required first is the applicant here I'm Bob Griffin here on behalf of Mr palaza the applicant and this is really just a very simple lot line adjustment between green belt and Mr Pala the green bell parcel comes down here and we're going to take 17,93 sare F feet out of their parcel put it on to the Pala parcel alaza owns these two Parcels here we're taking the an equivalent area and giving it the green Bel that's really all we're do so you're just swapping land that's exactly right not making any new buildable Lots that's correct it's all even Steven great any questions from the board I would like just just to touch slower so green is this relatively large parcel here it's 14.9 that yellow portion right there it does include the yellow portion so yellow portion is going to be transferred to the palazola ownership palazola own this parcel and this parcel so out of this SK parcel here we're going to take 8,300 out of this larger here we're going to take another 9,600 these add up to the same amount of area that is being conveyed from Greenville so that's why I say it's even Ste land these two Parcels Go Green Belt this parcel go to Pal front no Mr pal already has a house here it certainly makes his lot a little larger than it is you know but uh again you combine his line his land this parcel and this parcel together it's again even Steven so he loses some he gets it back is there um so this is the greenv land is that right um what green Essex County greenv Association Inc okay and um so that's a public land trust is there public access provided to this green Bel track anywhere is there anything about that that's changing uh I'm not aware of how green bills managing their property but generally they do let the public onto their land and there is nothing here that would affect their access or how they manage their land as far as I know okay thank you any other questions from the board I just just I'm sorry I was only going to ask if Mark had had a chance to look at this as the planner yes before today yes um he and I met last Friday okay and he said um that it was just basically a swap no new buildable Lots no change in access from the road um no issues um regarding uh the public way so he felt comfortable with it okay I don't want to speak with for him I think you just asked answered my question it's just a simple exchange of the properties yes that that's correct I'm now here okay so you said exactly what what we discussed and then furthermore I also spoke uh with the the sunam new director uh who's the uh person in charge of land uh for green belt um Chris I think it's Le Point and uh uh yeah and they're just uh just doing a land swap to address some encroachment from um uh landscaping and a small and some stone walls of fences so that's that's the entire purpose of this so that's I think that's this agreeable to both parties so this is Sarah Sue yes um that was my question is that do we have uh any documentation that it's okay that it's uh both land owners are um in agreement um that's the first question and then the second qu second comment I guess is to Gail um I will be abstaining from this because I'm on the board of Greenville we have an application that's signed by both parts okay thank you I can't see it on my end so thank you simple question this has to be submitted to registry ofs and the the property lines change with the different areas does it have to go through the normal procedures yes that's exactly right so this plan would be reported at the registry of deeds and then a deed would referencing that plan would be uh executed between the two parties to make the conveyances complete okay SAR anything else anything else from the board I got one thing typically we endorse these on the condition that it's not an approval of any zoning approval that's correct in fact that language is on the plane already see some wet L planning board endorsement does not certify compliance with zoning bylaws and over here says weapons may exist on the parcels no official verification any weapons okay great thank you all right I'm going to move that we endorse the uh approval not required plan hope we get all these references right uh based on a survey prepared by uh the blank survey Associates David ju 18 2024 uh for a land swap of land between Thomas palazola 25 and Mr SC asso there second second discussion theard ready V Mary yes yes yes yes yes yes thank you very much thank you obain thank you Chris so since ER Sarah stain to sign that document so that I can sign is that right or can Sarah still sign most I need to check with um Town Council be she's not she hasn't voted and the abstention will be noted in the decision but um I think as a chair she can sign that the board move that forward and the decision will state that she abstained I think she's okay okay great thank you okay um so you have sorry Lincoln um you didn't open at the meeting for additional comments that weren't on the agenda and I wanted to see if I could do that we're going to do that at the end all right um but I will allow comment after each of the hearing separately okay um if that helps okay um so I'd like to move on to the continued public hearing for S signaling um if I could have a motion to reopen the hearing that was continued from our last meeting on their application for a special permit so moved second second vote Mary yes yes yes yes yes Sarah great and now we need to do another roll call um who's present for the hearing Mary Foley here Peter Martin here Sarah here great um should we get the applicant where's the thanks good yep just a flag to uh this is that Kon from won and Samson we're we're also on the line with my colleague Doug Osler We Touch Bas with Mark this morning last week so just wanted to flag we on the call as well maybe we could start with um Les on their comments on did you open the public hearing we opened in your and sorry just to make sure I heard you correctly you were asking for Weston Samson just to summarize the open comments we have right your most recent memo that we received today y yeah no we had emailed um I guess there's a a few different things that we received last week from the applicant um just going back to our original July memo um one was additional information from Hancock Associates on the temporary facilities um that was just limited to item 4.8 which is limits of clearing so that we were comfortable with the information that was provided um that no additional clearing would be done for the temporary facilities um we did get the link uh there's a YouTube link for that under item 6.1 of the view uh skape so I know that has been a comment and concern from the planning board um we do have an additional rendering from the applicant um they've indicated that their review is not showing that the building would be visible that they have adequate screening with evergreen trees uh the rendering is just from two different locations so it's not obviously the entire stretch of 128 so it's we're relying on the information from the applicant but they did provide um a YouTube video of additional information um and then I I don't know if Mark you want to just flag because we did get some additional conditions um that might have changed sort of from the morning to this afternoon but I could speak to some of like the the sidewalk discussions which Mark are you oh sorry um Mark Resnik okay are you Mark resnic are you able to go through those conditions uh yeah yeah I'm here um is uh I think you may want to have the applicant here to discuss the conditions um go back what document are we talking about so I'm just asking what document you're talking about so this afternoon late afternoon uh we received uh proposed conditions from the applicant which an email to us late this afternoon so you may not have seen it so okay so I had responded that I assumed this was on next week next meeting's agenda since we haven't had time to R you I think we'll continue to discuss it um okay do you have an objection to continuing well just that we just got it a half hour before the meeting so I mean we can I'm sure brush over it but I haven't had a chance to review it and and if we could get a link to the YouTube video that would be good as well if I may yes um I did send everybody the I sent Mark the link to the YouTube video for distribution uh I also sent uh I we didn't get the proposed conditions until late Sunday afternoon yesterday so no and I that's fine I'm just saying that we as the board need time to review it and we never got the original so if we could get the original as well that would be good um this is just the first we're seeing it okay and I did because it's difficult sometimes discussing U the written materials without having them in front of you I did make hard copies of the conditions with the exhibits for distribution to the planning board if you'd like it that would be great thank you are you're welcome I don't know whether you if it is helpful we could provide some commentary related to the Traffic Engineers comments last week related to Atwater AV um why don't we let U Mark lovsky go through the conditions okay sure sure I'd be happy too um uh first of all uh late this afternoon I realized that the finance committee had actually also suggested a condition that's not included and so that's uh an additional condition that we'd be happy to comply with and that condition came in an email and it was that cell signaling all plan and consultation with Police and Fire Chiefs to train all public safety personnel on the features and layout of the buildings to prepare them for any type of public saf response that may be needed and that is something that's done with Beverly and danverse as well by self signaling and so that that could well be a condition and the finance committee did urge you to incorporate that uh when it review the fiscal impacts St yes uh and so in addition to that uh what You' received from me in response to what I got yesterday from Mark Resnik is uh a list of conditions that we think uh would be appropriate in response to what we've heard and I'm going to go through very quickly and if there's anything in particular that needs to be discussed we can go back to it or we can stop at each condition however you prefer to do it why don't we go through them one by one um and I'd like to give my resent a chance to respon first before from the board me sure and before I get started I should introduce Brian gdr who's taken Matt Connor's Place Matt is no longer with Hancock U Brian is now uh the engineer from Hancock who's primarily responsible for this project so Brian's caught up and he's here with us tonight uh the others that are here tonight are Chris K Peter gdau uh Charlie wear from H and Greg Keller somewhere behind you behind me oh there you are and uh on uh virtual uh virtually tonight is Sam Borio from Tec so we will collectively present the uh conditions uh the first condition deals with uh Mark resnik's suggestion that we pay for a third party to uh inspect on beh have of the planning board and in response to that suggestion uh we reminded the planning board that this project is a controlled construction project and uh Greg Keller if you would like will explain how controlled construction works and uh we will be complying with the con controlled construction requirements and obviously the building inspector will be supervising the process but GRE could you give a little input yeah sure K with Columbia Construction uh most commercial properties anything over 35,000 cubic feet required what they call a registered design professional uh which is a licensed architect engineer who oversees the design and construction of a of of a property uh they're licensed in the state of Massachusetts and they have very specific requirements both to meet all of the uh revent codes and to uh verify that the work going in place does indeed meet the uh design intent of their drawings and at the end of the project at the beginning of the project they uh provide an affidavit that says all of their design meets the Massachusetts State Building Code uh they submit that for permit it's a requirement for permit and then at the end of the project they do the same they submit affidavits to the to the town that says the the construction occurred in accordance with our plans and all applicable codes so that's what control construction is a professional design engineer who oversees the project in design so so that's that's why we modified condition number one and uh obviously between now and the next meeting you you can discuss that and if there's anything additional that's required uh please let us know uh the second condition don't if you could just hold on one second Mark Resnik did you want to chime in on condition one well I still think there should be some sight inspections by our engineer just as uh the building department still does even though there's an affidavit they still do electrical and fire department does fire code inspections and the building inspector does his inspections and plumbing so I uh I still believe there should be um some sort of schedule of site inspections done for uh for the uh the installation of the drainage and some of the other significant site work can I add something to that too is there is there a schedule of special inspections been listed there's no document said this structural engineer is going to be doing this or are are going out there uh is there a list of special inspections for geotechnical for everything to kind of answer what Mark was just bringing out there is it has not been established for any of the building components it's it's quite lengthy uh yeah you know just an overview for let's just take structural as a as a a small aspect not only does the structural engineer have to design he also and the owner pays for this they also have to do a third-party review of his design the peer review a peer review EXA so so there's layers and then what happens is part of his responsibility to structurers responsibility is he has to identify independent third party testing for work that's going in so the owner then hires a third-party independent testing agency who witnesses concrete placement steel placement anything that is required under the structural engineers testing program and and so any work that goes in as third-party inspections those inspection reports go to the uh structural engineer for review so just trying to actually I'm actually trying to help you with B here the the idea that there will be a eventual list when the building starts to go into Real Construction there'll be a list of inspectors when who what where when and how in the communication with with this is a question but they'll be they'll be in communic with our the town's uh inspectors as well oh yes without a doubt even even simple things like civil the DPW usually has their own inspection program when we're putting in water or sewer they want to be there for testing third party testing agencies for chlorination and pressure so that's pretty standard operating procedure in the town the the town plumbing inspector will be uh you know have underground plumbing inspections very typical to resid IAL but it will be it will be identified you know through the the pering process okay so that that process is yet to happen that's I'm gonna ask if I may speak for Mark resnic for a second here the actual site that's work this ongoing right now I know it's just Drilling and Blasting and such but eventually it's going to be spreading Earth and doing stuff on the site a lot of stuff on there do you have somebody on site observing that uh if there's any AC action test to be made We Will We Will and that will be first off there's what we call construction Administration which Hancock has the responsibility of doing uh interval inspections and then we will have a third party inspecting agency that will do compassion testing Proctors on the soils and inspecting grades in soil placement Mark did that did that meet what you were looking for a question well no I understand what their process is um but um just um just as they provide those um testing results to the other Town inspectors um those other Town inspectors do observe um and are there uh at various times but there's nobody who's uh on the behalf of the Town doing site inspections so um that's when often times planning boards require that they're Consulting an engineer um or if they have happen to have an inspector because they do a lot of stuff um uh just uh come in and do periodic inspections and write a report on uh what they observe uh out at the site this is often the procedure uh in subdivision situations where the developer is constructing roads and sidewalks and utilities that are ultimately going to be the responsibility of the municipality and and so that's a little different this is uh in this case the owner of the property is going to be responsible for all this stuff after completion of construction so it's a little distinguishable I think from maybe situations that Mark may be referring to I'm not sure no you're you're absolutely correct that for subdivisions it's common practice for site uh development some towns do it and some towns don't um those places I've been in um the major site elements uh when they go in the ground are often times observed by U the town uh uh boards inspector or if the town has a or the board has an inspector uh just to uh to ensure you know like any other inspector Town inspector does Sarah kraton I see you have your hand up thanks um I think there are two things here one is the the building itself and I uh that would be under it seems to me that's under controlled construction I'm not sure if controlled construction extends to the site work um so I guess that's a question um and I think we're I'm most concerned about the site work and the drainage being installed as designed um I think we reserve the right to have it inspected by a third party and I think the question is who's going to pay for that um we the building itself um Electrical Plumbing all of that it seems to me if there's additional inspectors needed beyond the building department or the plumber plumbing inspector those expenses are covered by the building permit fee even though uh so I would disagree with the condition proposed by the finance committee that additional permit uh review fees be um required of cell signaling at least for the building but for the site work the drainage in particular and any uh compliance with any of these conditions on the road or or offsite um it does seem that we should reserve the right to ensure that they are installed as designed and I think that's consistent also with the idea of a performance bond which is one of the later conditions and thus and then subsequently its release we have to have some sort of validation that uh the site work is installed as as we have permited or or a modification based on site conditions has been agreed um so I think there is some probably Weston and sson uh work on the site issues that is outside of control the control construction scope but maybe you guys can clarify that for me Sarah did you want clarification from Mark glovsky and his team or whe the controlled construction extends to site work did you get that you're breaking up a little bit I understand concern and uh I think that uh sell signaling would be prepared to cover the cost of a third- party review of those things that would be covered by the performance B if if report Sor no no I was going to change the subject for a second um just to quick questions um and I it's probably for um our town planner who on the towns side is overseeing the project in its entirety if we have an inspector here and an inspector there who's see overseeing the whole project and then my second question is question comment is I believe when the select board had discussions of not um looking into having a full-time building inspector it was because we were going to have um large projects pay for the inspection services so I'm wondering why that changed and where that changed so maybe that's a question to the select board but um so those are my two questions uh so um so yeah the building department um is responsible for the construction of the building which which is why typically the planning board or the approving Authority is responsible for overseeing the construction of the site so oftentimes during uh site construction there are conditions that require field modifications um uh you know and uh so if you have a inspector who's familiar with what's been going into the site um uh uh you know he can uh make uh uh you know judgment calls um on what to do and um uh how to adjust uh whether to approve something or not so um so that's why I having an inspector and having the cost paid for by the applicant and we don't need to be there uh well let's say for example while they're spreading LOM over some Landscaping know while they're planting bushes but while they're installing catch basins so they have a trench open and they have pipe in the ground to observe that um you know those types of uh things um are typically what's uh observed and usually they do a weekly construction uh inspection or um when when active site work is is going on or the drainage is being in in installed um and so that's kind of the U the control over construction of the site while the building department does the building that wasn't what I expected to hear the planning board is um responsible for construction observation or Administration that doesn't seem right to me there may be a third- party inspection that U reports to the town and the building inspector typically the building department has within its review of the building permit touch the Bas with all the other departments that need to sign off prior to the building inspector sign off on the building permit and then same at close out so um I just want to I'm not trying to dispute what Mark said but I want to clarify that I don't think the planning board is per Performing construction observation here so if there is um a bond that's required performance bond for site observation and the site development is what's in the planning board's perview and I think we just need to talk about what's the right scope of independent thirdparty um review and or testing to ensure that the contract documents are fulfilled and what are that CPW or however DW wants to manage with resp to the site the site work the bulk of the site work is also covered by the order of conditions that the Conservation Commission issued and they are going to be policing that during the course of construction because ultimately we're going to need to obtain uh certificate of compliance from the Conservation Commission so there's multi layers of inspection here agreed that I think on the certainly on the wetlands production and buffering wetlands and so forth concom is um is uh that is with their jurisdiction I think we're also talking about site utilities and um ensuring that um you know that the utilities are reformed correctly has the DPW in at all that will be supervised by the DPW yeah okay so have they have they um I don't mean have I'm just asking a question if Chuck has has weighed in on how he thinks that this um inspection or process should happen well we've had regular meetings with with Chuck and did copy him on all this today uh we anticipate that he will be inspecting those things u in know what more we can say but I think what you need to do between now and the next meeting is confirm all this and determine if you're satisfied you've got a comfort level we don't we're not trying to avoid scrutiny uh we just don't want to create extra work and extra fees I just have a follow to that I would um request that we ask the um DPW director and the billing inspector to our next meeting so we can get a clear understanding of who's inspecting what Mark did you want to okay talk um Mark Resnik do you want to talk a bit about your conversation with DPW now or do you want to wait until we get a little bit further along on the conditions um I think you probably want to talk about that when we get to the appropriate condition um but yes I did meet with Chuck um last week about much of the the work and we didn't discuss like on-site inspections um so uh that's a conversation I'm going to have to follow up with him um to see what they are willing to do uh as far as onsite and inspections um of site work don't believe that they anticipated they would do that but I can certainly have that conversation with them great any other comments from the board on this condition before we move on to the next one good question are we asking um Weston and Samson to weigh in either now or later on how these conditions yes on their opinions and how these conditions also might be um achieved if they s peer review advice on that yes okay um so I'm not sure they have seen these and have't had chance to really respond um they weren't copied yeah we do have them so yeah Mark had Shar them um with us um yeah certainly our contract with the town just for the planning board's assistance and Technical review includes site plan special permits from the plan phase as well as the construction phase as needed and desired and requested by the planning board um so certainly we can support the town if that's desired but certainly other Town departments the DPW um or others are going to be reviewing SP controls and erosion controls and the like we don't need to the outsite um during construction so it's yeah it's really up to the planning board on that first condition um and a level of comfort um but yeah I think as Mark mentioned the most would be there would be weekly um for active construction and sight civil work but um again it's at the direction of the town did you have a chance to um review the so that you're comfortable commenting on them today uh we have seen them I mean it was just today that we saw the initial comment so we kind have like in-depth technical review but we do some of them are tied to the applicants information that was provided last week um specifically on Atwater AV and School Street and the roadway improvements so we do have our traffic engineer we can respond to questions from the board related to those items um I guess I'm trying to figure out if you would be more comfortable waiting till our next hearing to respond before our next hearing um or are you comfortable weighing in today it it may still be useful just I mean there's there's 14 conditions I mean if the board was open to it it would be good to just talk through them and the ones that are are clear and resolved we can um move forward with those but if there are ones that require more technical review those could be continued um just so we do have enough time to weigh in if there's still open technical questions not that way we'd make progress tonight does that seem agreeable to the board yes that would enough um why don't we go on to number two then that starts out hours of construction and in this vein I think that U some of the members of public who are here tonight may be here because of a lasting question and I don't know I think that's and rather than ask them to sit through 14 divisions perhaps we could take a break from this it's somewhat related to ours of construction and talk about the blasting uh questions that come up uh so that maybe if people don't want to spend their entire night here they could hear what they came to hear that would that be okay is that agreeable to the board I think that's very okay so I think to to start this discussion off I I would reintroduce uh Greg Keller from Columbia who was supervising the blasting and who's been intimately involved and uh uh he can perhaps explain what's happened to date what's anticipated and I know the fire chief is here as well so plenty of people who know more about blasting than I do I'm going to step aside okay um as you all know we are starting blasting procedures at the site uh we anticipate uh a blast every day a blast is usually uh we drill any anywhere from 24 to 5050 holes and uh very controlled usually about 3,000 square ft a day it's one blast that lasts all of a millisecond uh we usually spend you know two days a set up for one blast uh it's very controlled uh it's not wide openen blasting all blasting is covered by series of mats actually we're double covering mats it's supervised anytime it's are on site uh the fire department has a detail on site uh we are required by uh law and code to uh get permitting fire department's issued the permit it uh and there's a blasting plan that meets all of the uh uh requirements in the state of Massachusetts we've set up uh czers uh according to the code which is anywhere within 200 50 ft of the blasting area and we've actually set up uh remote scomet over on Mid Street and up on School Street just to verify uh the level of vibration that anyone could be feeling at any time um we're well within the parameters of the criteria for blasting Chief you're the authority having jurisdiction yeah so a little bit I think there's been some conversation about the permitting process uh so basically the way the permitting process works on the fire department side we review a detailed blasting plan we look at pass actions on the blaster or blasting company we look at you know obviously valid licenses Etc uh the one thing that does tie back to our bws if they're removing more than 250 cubic yards of uh fill then that triggers a planning Board review of the uh glassing permit which they're leaving everything on site so that does not trigger that our details been up there I get a uh daily blasting report from not only just the Blaster itself but from each of the uh devices that are monitoring the vibrations and sound none of those have uh some have triggered which a trigger doesn't mean that it's outside of the acceptable range it just means it actually the device send something so it's important to remember that the devices are kind of calibrated so they're they're not going to just catch a vehicle driving down the road and Trigger so there a low threshold for the trigger and there's a higher threshold for the trigger um I think as of this point point. one has been the highest trigger we've had out of two weeks is maybe a little bit longer um and the safety threshold starts at 05 so we're well below um what there is myself or other firefighters have also been on M Street uh pretty much every single day that they've been blasting since complaints have been coming up and monitoring uh kind of the conditions on Mill Street as well that nothing is U kind out of the ordinary before we hear from the public in terms of word Mar I have some questions um so and thank you Chief I got the blasting permit this afternoon um just I guess a housekeeping question now I find up from it um it says for eight water eight eight eight at Water app yes um and I know our application is for two at waterf so is the blasting happening at the Mac site so the blasting is happening at two however our systems hadn't updated with the Assessor's Database with a new address so the closest address we had uh to the perm was eight so that's why it has eight and it has been once C Assessor's Database connects with our database you don't hav't address in our system yet for two that's why St two yet so is that I mean the state allows that to have a incorrect yeah so I we have a note on the permit the blasting and the blasting detail has a map map based um and then you mentioned the 250 cubic yards um which is our for our general bylaw um and we I think within the last three years um a resident petitioned to have that new SE ction for blasting added to that um I don't know that it was specifically requested to add to Earth removal because the the blasting portion is a little um doesn't really match up with the Earth removal part they're kind of separate things I don't know that the bylaw reads if then how type of thing um so um it and it definitely doesn't read that it has to be 250 cubic yards removed from the blast it's just if the 250 cubic yards is going to be removed from site so I guess I would just want to verify with sell signaling that with the roughly two acres of trees and shrub that you're removing and things like that the soil so you don't think you'll be any of your construction removing 250 cubic yards no okay um and then my only other comment with that is that our general bylaw lasting hours are different than our construction hours so when we get back to that the conditions um we'll have to talk about the hours they don't match up and and there's no wiggle room in the general bylaws for hours construction hours um and I am curious to hear from residents because I know there's 's been a lot of concern with um the blasting and the vibrations and integrity of homes and so I think people were hoping that that General bylaw would kick in because they would have been notified a quarter of a mile and so more people would have been aware of what's going on so maybe we can get some feedback from the residents and understand what their concerns are anyone else from the board before we take public comment I just have a couple of um logistic questions regarding the blasting so um the area where you be blasting and you are blasting currently is it as it sits on the site is it um are you beginning with those blasts that are closest to Mill Street and working away from it is there a strategy around that or is does it what is your what is your plan there and my the question is because if you're ending up closer to M Street does that mean that the intensity of the blast will increase as you go that's a good question it it's not linear um blasting is is an art form it's actually computer uh generated so you're always looking for a a relief point of blasting so the early blast that we did were test blasts the first week week there was no relief we're just essentially blasting straight down in the ground as we start to work into the cliff now all of that energy has a release and can move move sideways there is uh all the blasting that has taken place so far has been on the lower area and we've created relief for that lower area we're actually moving next week to start the drilling in the upper area now the upper area will have two different types of of black in technique one will be literally drilling every two feet like if you go up on 128 you'll see the scarified well that relieves The Rock and allows all that energy to push the rock away from what you're you're remaining so that you'll have some vibration but not nearly if you're directly in the ground there is a little bit of of blasting it has to happen in the up what we call the upper Meadow area but that will also have relief and it's very very shallow uh like 5T at the most um then there's there's one other area that requires blasting that's probably closest to the residents and that is probably a couple days of blasting for the water line that's in the in the uh the roadway the r roadway along the uh southern side so if I understand that correctly and I'm science is not my suit here but does that it sounds to me like as you go on you relieve pressure which means that the vibrations could be less on millstreet am I hearing that correctly they could be but I I don't anticipate I think where we're why we did a week of test blasting is to see you know size of charge how the rock breaks etc etc so I would anticipate that the level that we're achieving right now will be pretty static going going forward you know you may have one or two that has you know a a different vibration signal but you also may have some that are negligible so rock is an interesting thing and that's why I have experts that do okay thank you from the board Mark Resnik do you want to comment on this issue before before I take public comment uh no I think uh they've explained what they're doing quite clearly so um so I can tell that people are tuned in there are quite a few people in the room and they're also quite a few people online um and I want to give everyone a chance to be heard who wants to speak so I'm going to have to ask folks to be concise and efficient um and keep it to a couple minutes so that everyone does get a chance to be heard um so we'll start I think with the folks in the room um you want to just raise your hand if you'd like to be heard Bennett yeah Ken Bennett 28 Lin Street um I am questioning are there any plans to look at the homes that are close to um the site because when we built the high school all the homes that have budded the high school had damage and the town ended having to settle with those folks so is there any plans to put Structural Engineers into the homes that are closest to to see what their damage is before and after with the high school what they did is they didn't send them before they sent them after the fact and they were at our houses for like eight hours at a time so I'm just curious um what are we doing to protect the homes of the people in that area anyone else just raise your hand oh I John Abbott 13 mil Street uh been there for 48 years and we had kind to have a history of lasting in that area which some of you may recall and some of you may not but it was pretty severe building out that uh gravel pen and indeed uh our concerns at that time uh fell on deaf ears and as a matter of fact uh I I attended many um select persons meetings and I was actually told once that well that's just fist trucks going up 128 which is a completely irresponsible answer from a public uh elected official um Sue Thor was on that board at that time and she came to our house and sat at our dining room table the blast went off boom and she said oh yeah and you know if you don't get out and into the houses as Miss Bennett said you know you don't know you're working in the vacuum um but one of the things that really bothers me even though the bylaw may not be clear is that we were never informed matter of fact um I really didn't know that a blast was going to happen uh until I saw the birds start flying in the air before before it happened oh what okay then the blast and it does shake the house and I'm not close like Liz is and and these other people um it does shake it does Rattle and and it could be it is traumatic to some people uh it doesn't seem to bother me as much but I'm sure that other people do and it we should know when it's going to happen and we should know the severity of it uh so the communication here um has been lacking and uh should be improved on in some way to communicate with the neighbors when this is going to happen and what the severity of it is and the hours of it um you know I'm going to Riser but that doesn't mean everybody is and I know these I think today was about quarter or 12 I was in my Sellar and I mean if I were a combat Marine I would have jumped under the table so this is not uh this is not a minor issue thank you thank you anyone else who is present in the room could you just say your name and your address sure Jeff Cony 28 mil Street around the corner from this you mentioned before that we haven't gotten the closest yet to Mill Street that will be coming in a couple of weeks um if we haven't gotten close if we haven't gotten to that point yet that's the closest I had pictures fall off the wall on day two so we're not there yet what's what's coming you know what's the what's the severity that's coming because I mean the picture didn't break landed on a carpet no big deal I Fire Chief came over immediately which was great um and we we had a good chat but um it sounds like it's going to get worse excuse me Sue this is Gail yes um I could not hear that last person who was speaking and it would really be helpful if people stood up and projected because the microphone is in the middle of the room and when you're sitting on the back bench can't hear you sorry thanks for that I don't know who spoke okay that was Jeff Connelly 12 M Street I'm sorry 28 I'm sorry I live around the corner so I um so as Gail said in order to be recorded and picked up Gail prepares the minutes um so if you could stand up um then she'll be able to hear you excuse me and um make sure we get your comments correctly anybody else uh want to speak who's in the room um can you sorry Karen Bennett 28 Lincoln um what are the blast the drilling hours or construction hours and the bylaws and the blasting in the bylaws and um what hours are they for both of those I don't think that's clear to everyone here um and what the what they're asking for is an exception on in both categories thank you anybody else yes uh Keith Moors 71 forestry uh one one question to the bylaws in terms of the monitoring device what's the procedure if that goes over the the uh 0.5 threshold anybody else and H and I'm at 23 mil and he had mentioned that so far stand up he mentioned so far that he'd only be 0.1 was it okay is it going to go over that is it going to go over 0.1 and how will we know I can't first off I'm I'm not the license Blaster I'm speaking for our our company uh I will check with with them every blast is different uh number of charges uh location Etc our goal has always been to stay within that threshold that's why we do some of the test blast to see in monitor all all across so uh I as I said before I can't guarantee but our threshold is is 05 at any point even at the even at the closest I guess none of us want to see it get to 0 five none of okay so I just want to clarify that we're not going to go there we're not going to get to we're not going to get over1 because I felt it shake on Thursday and it was pretty scary for us and I guess our concern again is what point are you going to keep it you going to try to keep it under1 we always Endeavor to keep it as low as possible okay you Endeavor to but can you I I I can't guarantee it right now but the state code requires us to stay under 25 yeah the5 scares me I think everybody in this room there's there's a lot of documentation out that we shared with the chief and with with other people about even what 05 is um I and again i' be more than happy to share a lot of the documentation about how how it's registered what it feels like what you feel in a house is different than if you're standing outside your house because it's it's sort of harmonic and I will be the first to admit that if you're in your house you feel a lot more than if you're standing next well I came up and Ted to you're very kind and you mentioned that um but I guess there was one blast in particular uh I most of them I've been know there was one blast in particular I believe it was Thursday that um shook my house probably was the one that had your paintings and stuff falling off I'd like to know what that blast register okay if you can give me the exact dates the this th I'm pretty sure it was Thursday because that's you know the first week and I think I explained this to you was our test blasting to see how the rock released and they use different charges now that they have a you know a process going we're we're seeing the same values right now across the board so so we anticipate we're not just going to suddenly overcharge anything so and and I want to answer someone else's question we do have a process uh and see me after this or that we have a text alert that every day will'll text and give like a 40 don't know when they're happening and now I realize that's what I heard today last and I didn't know what happened in my neighborhood okay I will make sure I I don't know how to communicate it but we'll make sure that um we communicate through a a text I think Liz you're on it right I am but I know other people have tried to get on I you're the only one who's contacted me again it's Mar Blaster notifies anybody who's on it it's a a text alert that will give you it's usually about a 45 minute uh window because you got to set the charge you got to check the charges and all that so every day there is yeah you would great every day there's an alert that goes out that says you know expect a blast at at you know at water a at this timein a 45 right yes so that you're prepar can the data be made public daily it can be yeah because if we're if we're not home if we're traveling we're away we might not know to to check our foundation or to look around yeah I you know it's it's pretty technical so I mean there's there's there's velocities there's you know ppv I number is all kind interested yeah you're just looking at the velocity which is the point B so um we can certainly publish that great yeah as a correction just uh I pulled up I like I said I get the reports every day and go through all of them to make sure nothing's even getting close to the 0.5 on Thursday uh which was in question it was it one was 02 the other uh four sensors nothing TR um so the highest was point2 I went back through the all of the the report so that would make sense why Thursday signant was was more signant can I answer a couple questions before we get too too far and we forget um so house emils um anybody stand up to yep sorry so for our house evaluations or they call them pre-blast surveys they're only required within 250 ft um the contractor has gone out and offered them uh only one resident has um accepted a pre-blast survey to this state within that so so with the offered as in if you would ask for one you would get let me rephrase so um the notifications we covered that with the text classes within a 45 minute uh half hour to 45 minute window depending on um for the hours we'll obviously you'll clarify the hours the only thing that is in the blasting um regulation of the permit uh applicant that was applied to me is with they within a 250 buffer of 128 then there is a Time constriction of 10 to two um so that in U ioud and then if the goes over the threshold so somebody said what happens if it gets to 0.5 so automatically by state law uh they have to notify me and we also notify the State Fire Marshall's office uh to do an evaluation as well so they come in the state comes in basically and U puts a magnifying glass on so that's kind of a process just one more question who watches the gas lines com into our houses as well so the amount vibrations going in that 05 is well below anything that's going to hit any like water lines in the street gas lines those aren't the things that you know even get close to that you'd be three times that that became an issue so how do we get the pre-last survey yeah there's a there's a uh list going around just put your address on there and it's a third party we don't even control it we'll contact a third party that will contact you Mak Arrangement 10 thee isn't really and I did I think you were talking about me when you mentioned a resident getting a survey and I did but that was that wasn't before blasting began I had asked for and got I don't mean to interrupt you but we don't all of us don't know who all of you are so if you could just Thomas 27 thank you stand up thank you I'm sorry um yeah no I just I feel like you were talking about me you know that I was the resident that got the pre-blast survey I do know Dr Gurley also got one right after me but pre-blast surveys are supposed to be before blasting begins that's the pre part and mine didn't wasn't done till 10 blast in and if if I had gotten notification prior which by the way my notification was two strange men coming to my door at 7:30 in the morning knocking one of them was at my door the other one was already in my backyard putting down a black case that I had no idea what it was that was my notification that's not okay we deserve and I definitely deserved it I live close enough that you wanted to put a seism graph on my property so I live close enough that I should have got a notification in advance and I did get that pre-blast survey but my neighbor Jeff Conley he also has a silra and he didn't get that offer so I mean to say there is a lack of communication is putting it extremely kindly which I had actually sent all of you a letter earlier today an email yeah I saw it and so that kind of broke down all of my concerns because I really don't want to be public speaking right now your letter was very good okay that's much more my I will step down thank you time to write it does anybody else want to make it's Josh Rogers 50 um Josh Rogers 594 Street um it this is not technically about blasting but there's a lot of you know spray painted lines on our street now and it seems like this is the beginning of a very big project and I would just like to know what is the plan what is the impact going to be so how how would we know that that might be more appropriate for DPW I'm not sure do you want to take a cack that is the extension of sewer and water lines that are going to be going from Summer Street up Forest Street mid Street under 128 okay uh that project was funded by a mass Works Grant of $3,500,000 that was obtained by the town and the work as I understand it is going to commence in September okay and and what I what I further understand about that is that no blasting will be required on Forest Street and Mill Street that the conditions are such is that to support CST or is that for some other reason it's it's not only for CST but it's for other properties in The Limited commercial district for instance the new DPW headquarters is going to get water and sewer from that project well in general I don't know who to direct to it would be nice if people would communicate what the plans are they going to you know impact why swabs residence which sounds like for either months or maybe years I I think that the uh Town Administrator does a pretty good job in that department uh he's not here he is he's right he's on the screen behind you and I'm sure an I didn't realize that but but generally Greg uh is pretty good in the cricket I I read it all the time that he advises the community as to what's going on we all got to buy the cricket yeah oh yeah read the cricket but I I there's a lot of people here tonight that don't know what's going on so I'm not saying that's your issue but that's a DPW question and I think Chuck dam is the best to address that GRE did you want to uh add anything at this point so um you know as as as hard as we Tred to do Communications It's never enough because there's always someone who hasn't heard um but we will be giving notification DPW will be notifying people directly um along the path of those two pipes as that time gets closer and how will that happen and when will that happen so the project will likely begin um in in September sometime construction will actually begin at that point um and there'll be notifications typically through door hangers door so there'll be door hangers there'll be use of the uh road signs you know notifications I'll continue to do updates on my blog which you can get online um and the DPW will be communicating um with with residents along the Route um Dan Daly on bar street right next to my friend right there but look at uh bar street is a dangerous Street regardless of what they want to do digging up this road the sidewalk is not Casal it's not safe this project should be going down another road not far Street I don't think anybody here wants that mess and they'll be there if he's starting in September he won't be done through probably who knows when he'll be done but it'll be a long time in my estimation yeah I had a question Liz Thomas again back at it um so a couple years ago probably maybe three four years ago do not know who's talking oh I'm sorry Elizabeth Thomas 27 Mill Street I had spoken to the Board of Health Ellen lkin um a couple times over the years asking if sewer would ever be an option on Mill Street and I was because I had septic and I would have loved having SE and um I was told at that time I don't remember the specifics on it but it wouldn't be a possibility because of our Brook it'd be a risk with ground groundwater and contamination all of that that it would never happen on Middle Street and now it's happening so why is it okay now why is it safe for us to have sewer running down Mill Street when it wasn't previously anyone else want to make a comment on the blastings here I just I just up and Mary Bon I'm 25 mil Street next um how we protecting our houses with this pre- blasting you know I could I contacted a surveyor and he said you know you're past the radius but we're all worried about what I just put new tile floors all through the house I'm afraid of them cracking you know so how are we going to register for this uh pre- blasting on the list you have right there so all of us are going to get one you we'll contact you your choice my choice is yes excuse me may I intervene hello who who hello who my name is Hannah Osborne and I'm I don't want to um cut you off but I want to finish with the people who are in the room first um okay it's justed I'm in Switzerland which is uh right now it's 1:45 in the morning oh okay all right if you don't mind can I interject okay so as I said my name is Hannah Osborne uh I grew up on 10 Ledgewood Road about 40 years ago my parents and my family uh were friends with Liz's parents and baby Liz Thomas and um we went through hell because of the blasting on Atwater AV um all of our health was impacted our home was impacted and I want to know why 40 years later it's starting up again why is there blasting going on again on atwat AV why are the people on Mill Street Forest Street Ledgewood Road Summer Street and all around School Street why why are they being subjected to this again because 40 plus years ago my parents and lizz's parents and I believe the gentleman who seated to lizz's left were all dealing with this we went to court there was there it it was horrific and I want to know why this is happening again why Liz Thomas who would wake up screaming from the blasts is now being subjected to this again as an adult then just uh I was there 40 years ago too and uh yeah I was very much aware what was going on in the Tory and it was an entirely different kind of blasting operation and it wasn't controlled the way this current project is being controlled and I do understand that it was out of control in the 19 late 70s and 80s and uh it shouldn't have been and uh it's not it it's not a problem that we're responsible for and we're doing everything we can to make sure that the consequences of that kind of activity don't recur anyone else um wants to make a comment Who's here in the room um okay I do want to give everyone a chance one final question who do we contact if there's damage who's responsible for it if it's damaged you uh there's a form that's on the fire department website that you can access you and it goes to me and the State Fire Marshals and they come out and do evaluation thank uh it's going to be done within 30 days of the damage so and you need to have inspected before the blast to know whether the damage is from the blast so if you haven't done preliminary examinations of all of the houses within beyond the 250 yard or whatever radius I mean houses Manchester and all of Northshore is built on ledge it's built on granite when you set off a blast it sets off the equivalent of sound waves okay so and it's not just releasing the sound waves that are that are impacting houses miles away it's also releasing gases that have been trapped for millions of years in that rock people around Herold Street and and lizz's mother people have died of cancer we cannot after the fact know that it was definitely that but Heather melowski her mother and her father all had cancer mother died a year ago at 51 her father died the year we were graduating from high school 88 her mother had cancer while we were in high school you cannot continue to let this blasting happen it's it's I'm going to use a bad word I've been living in Switzerland for 32 years and this is still affecting me I left Manchester because of how I was treated because of how my family was treated during that whole episode and you're doing it again and you're treating population like idiots I'm sorry but the guy who said it's all complicated it's very complicated no it's not it's vibrations just like the ones that you're hearing right now thank you for um taking the time to call in from Switzerland I appreciate it one more word 40 years ago the blasting was supposedly wait a minute no let me finish let me finish 40 years ago it was supposedly to put in a a strip mall or something like that what is the excuse now what is the excuse for blasting now are you really going to put in some buildings this time it's been 40 years I'm sorry but I I am going to move on to other people who would like to speak um there are several people um online with their hands raised uh Greg did you want to comment quickly before I go to other members of the public or was that a hand raised from before um thank you s I would just comment that um the water and sewer lines have been fully permitted including Conservation Commission review um so that the issues related to water and stream Crossings Etc have all been reviewed and and permitted um by the appropriate boards that's thank you um so Lori worth I see your hands raised thank you um yeah I'm Lori worth I live at 17 Mill Street I have a couple of questions um one is is my house within in the range um for which I would be eligible for a pre-blast survey and if it is I would like to have that done at my house my next question is um I'd like to know about the damage to the houses um that was mentioned earlier by Miss Bennett when the high school construction was done what type of damage did the houses there um in occur and how is that mitigated by the town and thirdly I'd like to hear what risk um are we add in terms of our houses um in terms of what kinds of damage we may experience from the blasting thanks anyone else um don't see any other hands raised uh Liz did you want to make one more comment please Thomas 27 um kind of wanted to connect what Karen had mentioned about the drilling a ledge and also what Hannah had mentioned with back in the 80s so back in the 80s I'm not I'm not gonna lie I don't remember any of it I was a tiny baby and I really don't remember but um I do know that that project um it stopped at blastic it never went beyond that so we never reached the drilling on ledge stage and I know that the the high school area had a lot of significant damage to fireplaces and Foundations and all sorts of problems um from drilling on ledge here on M Street and in Forest Street we're going to have both so we're getting the blasting now soon it's going to be transitioning over to drilling a ledge that's a onew punch on our homes so I'm not going to lie I'm the closest house I'm worried I'm very worried about how that's going to play out especially for the length of time that this is going on for that's all um self signaling or chief did either of you want to make any other comments based on what you yeah I mean just in closing um you know remember I'm I'm an advocate for the residence I I serve you as your bioch Chief um so I'm constantly monitoring the blast I do listen to concerns and not falling on deaf ears um the safety margins that are imposed are because of things that happened in the 80s and those practices of severe damage to houses um so those are things that we don't take lightly um we are monitoring them and like I said it's as as disruptive as it is it's being done as safe men as possible I've never going to allow something that I feel is unsafe to affect one of the residen sorry more josh9 um does it make sense to stop the blasting till we do the pre-blast surveys so that people can get at least as appropriate a baseline as possible that would be yes it does one question second question would just be what so a lot of statements that are fairly technical about how we're following regulations and that I appreciate that but my assumption is that regulations were followed when they built the high school and it seems to have caused a lot of damage we're not doing a lot of lessons learned about what happened with high school and so that's a concern I think for everybody here um but but I think pausing the blasting and getting a baseline so we could properly measure these things seems like it would be a reasonable thing even if I was running CST I might want that because you're opening yourself up to significant litigation uh SAR oh I just like to clarify that the high school is totally different project um the issue there was compaction we did not BL there was no blasting at the high school okay thank you Mary um I thank you for saying that because I was going to try to throw that out there what we could do with ensuring that the residents that want the pre-blast and not pre-blast now but um a somewhat pre-blast survey done before further blasting happens um and then I know the Town Administrator said that concom reviewed for the sewer lines um I think it would behoove the town and Andor the board at this point point to also get the Board of Health um input on it since Elizabeth had mentioned that the Board of Health was the one that was saying that it couldn't happen in Prior years and then my third question is to CST Andor the fire chief um is any blasting occurring within 250 fet of 128 because I know you would need to then get a permit from the mass doot um and there's regulations that need to happen on the highway I don't know if the vibrations can be felt on the highway but I know they have that 250 requirement as well so just wondering where that falls yeah um the permit has been applied for it there is some minor blasting that happens within that 250 foot uh perimeter and so our blasting company has applied to the state for approval on that the hours change uh I think blasting is what between 10 to two um and and no blasting will occur until they receive that permit from the state okay and then you'll let the planning board know when that occurs yes once once once the U permit is issued then we will schedule very specific times within that that time frame that state allows and does the state this is just from the state websites does the state require that there's a pause on 128 of traffic during the blast they do what they call a r Rolling Road Block so they'll just probably at 133 they'll they'll put a couple Cruisers out just sort of go slow and they'll time it with with the blasting so that there are no cars in the immediate perimeter they don't do a full shutdown so there's one more um person I didn't see online and that's Sarah Pierce um you want to go ahead Sarah yes thank you very much Sarah Paris 9 friend Street um just have a couple of questions and a comment it sounds like right now um you're in the preliminary stages of blasting there's one blast being done per day sounds it's like it's in a 45 minute block when you start doing your actual Avid construction how many blasts will happen per day and what will the time frame be I'd also like to make a comment um I think as far as a resident as I mentioned I don't live on Mill Street but there's been very little communication that any blasting in Manchester has been done we have a flashing blinking light at the end of the highway that lets residents know about a festival by the sea I think that would be more useful if we could let residents know that there's active blasting going on in our town just in case locations like the Mac or any other places need to be uh made aware of that um I think that was it but I I do really feel badly for the people that live in that immediate area especially those that have gone through this in the past and we don't really know as you said rock is an unknown area whatever the um consultant had said we don't really know what the impacts will be until the project starts so those are my questions and comments if we could get more great thank you um and thank you all for taking the time to come and um let us know what's happening in your neighborhood and how you feeling about self signaling and achievement we all we thank you for your comments is it possible just to get an answer on the blasting of what will happen when you're in your Avid state of beyond the one per day will it be all day blasting oh no no we are actually into production right now and currently it it appears that only one blast will occur per day uh and just so the other thing I forgot to mention uh is the area is secure and then by state law we uh we we ensure that the Blaster sends out an air horn blast the certain blast uh five minutes out one minute out from the blast and you can hear that at least 250 feet once in a while if the wind's blowing correctly I can hear it when I'm on Mill Street I've heard that on my but it's not with M streets you know so far out of I shouldn't say so far removed from the in sight that even that air Horn's very hard to hear depending especially if the wind's blowing towards Essex you're not going to hear um that but it does go all the so I have stood there stopped on the highway and listen to it so it is following all the r good question what's the duration of the permit how long is this going to go on for so my permit I issued is for three months they'll re if they have to go after I think it's September 28 I think sometime mid September range they have to reapply for an extension for that thank you Chief I think we're going to move on to the rest of the self singaling hearing thank you again everyone [Music] because we might want to tell want me to say something we got all get yeah I'm wrong you want suest just because there's a pad of paper here but that's not good for them just good idea to those folks who are online um obviously you couldn't sign the paper that's here so if you are interested in the pre-blast survey if you could let Mark Resnik know and he will pass that information on Sue I'll have those papers in town hall tomorrow between 9 and two oh great thank you Dale people sign the physical paper you can see jail tomorrow between 9 and two thank yeah I'm in the assessor's office from 9 to 9 to two thank you um Bion I think it's going to be a bit okay sorry we'll try and run through the rest quickly all right um we're on to number two hours of construction um okay um um this is uh uh essentially what Mark Resnik had proposed it's modified a little bit I did add the sentence that said no blasting would occur earlier than 8 in in fact we don't anticipate blasting before 10 uh it's important to make those changes yeah other than that I think it it's fairly straightforward I did uh Mark Resnik at Peter Gordo suggestion delete state holidays because there are some state holidays that uh that are observed without uh construction being called I think this is probably one that the board is going to want to discuss um at our next hearing um hours and scope so that's right and uh you know in light of what Mary said about you're just having received this and and the hour and others on the agenda uh in spite of the fact that we were hoping to to finish up in septe at the first meeting in September it's apparent now that there there may be need for another meeting you're not Avers to that I think there's a lot to digest here and we could continue to go through it if you'd like uh it's up to you I um well let's discuss with the board we have put a tenative meeting of August 26 um I don't know it folks have already clear Avil not available okay um do you how does the board feel about continuing our discussion or continuing September meeting the hot the hot button for the last couple weeks has been it number three EXC yeah item number three that water Avenue if we could that's that one the other ones are all certificate of octy per stuff just later down the road this one is a hot button right now uh and uh we'd be happy to address that tonight and then we we can move away and we've got Darren onte and we have Sam gorio on the call and Sam is as you recall from Tec uh he has provided a number of things uh as tools for this discussion uh one is uh one is a look at Water Avenue yes the measurements have been confirmed you're welcome so uh obviously we're well aware of uh potential safety issues on at waterer Avenue but as you can see from the plan that I just gave you uh and as you may recall from prior discussions there are some real physical constraints with respect to at Water Avenue that limit what can be done however uh considering those constraints uh Sam has suggested three primary traffic calming measures uh that self signaling would be happy to install and they're itemized in uh a sketch that was attached to uh the this these conditions that I gave you and Sam do you want to run through uh your traffic calming measures and provide an explanation as to how you arve to these measures um sure I assume that everybody's looking at the graphics right now when I start talking right before I go it's gonna be okay so good evening everybody once again I'm sorry about one behind me so it's less laring um so once again is what we got tonight yes just give us one minute give us one minute I give I'll give you five it's great now okay are you all thank you Sam while while we're looking this is Peter how are you um just a quick question you're um the widths of the road that you here that's the existing width of the road yes so those are there're it's twofold so those are the widths of the radway that are directly off the survey so that's down to the exact measurement of survey showed and then um going through the measurements last Friday um I walked out to atwat a and took a wheel out to we say the plus or minus of each of these locations with the orange crossbar going across I might have been like a foot or two in each direction from it it's because it's I'm doing that based off a wheel as opposed to what the survey was um but from there um I took a wheel measurement at each of those locations and got pretty much the exact same number again some of them might have been an inch or two different just because I'm not in the exact same location um as where the survey those survey lines are um but we were pretty pretty accurate um to where what the survey was and so um to just kind of outline what you're looking at there's a blue line that runs across uh kind of the top of where the radway is that's the northern side of Outwater uh there's a blue line to the south of that uh you can kind of see the red on top of it the red is the 25 foot offset from the north side so that's just kind of giving you the indication wherever the red is south of the Blue Line there that's right next to it that means the roadway is less than 25 in that area um and so I kind of highlighted that with that yellow marking well above the roadway that just kind of said this is the general length of roadway that's less than 25 uh for that there are lot there are locations on the roadway that are more than 25 um but there are locations that are less so the payment just kind of goes in and out um a lot of it based on where the curvature is and then on top of it there's also the Wetland lines uh which are the greens those are the flagged Wetlands so that's not even the buffer zone obviously the whole entire roadway is within the buffer zone um just based on the proximity where the water is so but that's kind of what you're looking at in the graphic um so um once you get about oh 100 feet down the radway because the first 100 feet right from school street is actually quite wide um so this next to the Farm Stand and then it Narrows out once you get past the dumpsters on the back side of the Farm Stand and that's where basically that less than 25 starts and it continues for a lot of the roadway um The Wider part and this isn't picked up necessarily on the um because each of these individual orange markers are about 200t apart that was the purpose of this when you get around the guardrail area which is right where the the Brook crosses in the CT there actually are a good amount of space in there that's more than 25 um um but from there the guardwell kind of blocks from there so where do you want me to go further I know you guys are still ask um go ahead just just a general question your measurement is from edge of pave surface to age of paid surface yes um and that's purposely because anything that's outside of that is considered right now perious land so even and there it might be flattened it might have some gravel in it it might have attributes that allow there to be potentially roadway at some point but it would be considered as perious land so any change to that area outside what would be the actual edge of asphalt um would trigger um obviously at that point anything uh Perman through the wetlands and uh and such but that area outside P service actually Services drainage collection from the road does it not uh somewhere or not it actually does do that I mean the roadway right now is um oh please please say that again I just want to make sure I understand what you just the drainage from the roadway just goes into the the soil or the the the natural right yes right now yes okay so it just go so there's no like storm water treatment on or storm water drainage system under out water no it's all run off Mark resnic are you still with us I know we had uh I guess not yeah yeah no no I'm here sorry um um did you want to comment at this point um about three and four and Atwater Avenue I know you had some talk on that yeah I mean I I still feel that it's it's possible to build a sidewalk there it may not be um it may require another level of Permitting with concom I think at the very least we ought to have uh some plary discussions with them on that because yes some areas will have there will have to be additional impervious area uh installed um you know and um in order to get that in some areas I mean the sidewalk can get narrowed down to 4 feet um instead of five um it allows it for certain lengths but um I I still feel that um that would be the best way of addressing this um and secondly um the last sentence referred to um traffic coming substantially set forth an exhibit B which calls for what appears to be my grooved rumble strips installed in the pavement um so my couple concerns with that obviously I believe um Wesson Samson had some concerns with that but the other concern I have is also related to just the condition of the asphalt there um um so um and uh so um yeah so Darren oh I'm sorry Mark I didn't I was just gonna say well other traffic caling or types of Rumble strip should be considered as well um so that's all thank you uh Darren of Weston and Samson do you want to comment on this right now uh if you'd like us to certainly we can we received some of the information from the applicant last week um B some concerns about the application of a sidewalk uh so we did a review that we sent some information to the town this morning I can run through um some of the latest figures are are new so we I think we can comment on on all of I didn't mean to put you on the spot um no no no that's fine I mean I guess yeah we can go through I guess the roadway with um as mentioned um from the edge of existing pavement to the Wetland to the north um most spaces was about 12 ft um certainly there is some complexity of building in that area if we the town required a sidewalk um it is a buding a wetland area so there's up to the concom considerations Mark was Raising uh would come into effect um there are allowances in the storm water handbook for bike and pedestrian paths which the sidewalk may fall into um that might give some leniency to the applicant on storm water controls and then I do have our traffic engineer on the call so we did look at some of the traffic Comming measures but I'll let Doug speak to those um including the rumble strips and some of the other signage that was proposed that would be great um would hello uh yes this is Doug oer from Western Samson I was the same traffic engineer that reviewed the uh previous traffic study um what I was able to see and review was a basically two-page memo it had one page worth of writing and then it had a figure um from what I could see from the screen the figure looked a little bit different so um bear with me it's not the exact one that I was looking at if you'd like I can share the screen to show what I was looking at um but it's not necessarily required I don't think I can figure that out okay um I'm not allowed to share my screen it would have to be permission from you so I'll I'll just talk through it it was referring to the memo a memo dated um July I'm sorry let me scroll back up to see this U memo dat July 29th by Sam um and it more or less talked about the desire that was propositioned to add a sidewalk and that the applicant the trafficing engineer uh feels that it wouldn't be too advantageous well there's different things that was talked about but most of it was if you kept it within the existing um surface width that it is right now now it would narrow the lanes and biking bikers would not be able to pass each other and then it provided a the figure that showed a few different um recommended traffic calming measures and that included some signage some pavement marking and the rumble strips that were already mentioned I think you might be able to share now all right let me cck into this press this button oh that does look better all right just double check are you seeing my screen now yes thanks Laura okay so this is a figure that I'm referring to um above is the um but comment centering around four different um means for traffic calming that was posed for consider not necessarily all of them are proposed by the applicant it was a letter addressed to the applicant so it would be the applicant's proposal to the town uh which and where is included which could be just forwarded this um the first one I'll zoom in here so we can read them was to add a center line and shoulder line pavement markings um to establish Lane lines uh we definitely agree with that it's usually always a good idea um I recall in the June 10th meeting there were concerns brought up about speeding along Outwater as well as cutting around corners so that they can go even faster I'm adding in the lines not only by slightly restricting things it is a little bit psychological that people tend to travel a little bit slower when there are stripe lines and is a calming method that is very commonly used um the second one refers to Shared use Lane pavment markings I'll shift over here and it's referring to what's sometimes called the sherrow to indicate as biker yes you can bike here on on within the lane as well as two drivers see it and know that bikers are allowed to be in that location and that they need to share the road for that um in this particular figure if I recall correctly the June 10th meeting these were discussed as being uh potentially provided um at that time there was not the green rectangle that is sometimes provided um often you normally see them in more urban areas um my comment for this was we are definitely okay with shared pavement markings um I personally have the preference of making sure that any use of typical traffic markings is common throughout the town and I'm aware that the town use shared pavement markings other locations but without the green rectangle um so I'm not necessarily saying don't have the green rectangle but keep in mind that any maintenance will be done by the town and would likely only refresh um upon the maintenance schedule the the markings unless that policy is changed by the town um the third was three sets of rumble strips um and there was a little bit of discussion um between emails about the concerns uh Town staff for this This was um in my opinion this is It's a method of traffic caling that would be atypical for normal locations and there are a few items that I would be concerned with particularly when it comes to freezing um conditions if there's any difference in materials that can cause some Frost thaw issues and create any vertical disturbance which is usually not great for a bicycle if so it's it may slow down it would certainly slow down vehicles have the effect for that um but it would be a detriment to bicyclist going over the same area and also uh for consideration you would not want any rumble strips near curves if we're looking at a freezing temperatures near a narrow road in a forested area without much recovery space for vehicles and so I I would my recommendation for the town would be to shy away of uh potential liability when it comes to Vertical disturbance along the way um and then the fourth was the two-speed Radar Radar feedback signs that's also getting to be a more common um treatment and has been found to work semi effectively there are still some people that will not really care but there are some people that will you know kind of con to the peer pressure saying oh yeah it's the speed and you know I really am going this way it's a feedback system that that does show um results of General traffic caling um and they propose at least in this figure it shows PA of those near the longest stretch of road which would typify being the places where speeding would be easiest to happen on a longer stretch of road so that's something that would be certainly acceptable and welcome for um the roadway for traffic caling thank you this ask a question yes one more shown uh kind of bump out little uh curb is shown on yeah so that that's the afternoon's issu set of conditions so we haven't had a chance to review that curb extension um and yeah yeah we would want to have a little bit more detail on the layout I mean obviously this is a schematic level um I think it's a little difficult to review um without the actual locations of potential uh curb extensions and how that would impact traffic um and then you know as dou was mentioning the construction materials of the rumble strips a section view obviously I know these are just coming together um that those would be helpful to review the long-term sort of performance of these uh tra measures give you a little more time on that one I think ahead a question for Daren and Doug thank you for the presentation this Laura um I thought that I saw a reference in a western Samson memo to a 22 foot 2 11 foot travel Lanes as being a um acceptable condition speak to the width of the lane and what might be is there is there a narrower Lane that we could consider that would be safe and possibly allow for pedestrian um a pedestrian route um I wouldn't say that there is a specific minimum requirements it is a little bit more of how the the location feels about things um decades ago the standard was 12 ft wide and you'll see that currently in highways and usually major roads will have 12T wide Lanes um some some jurisdictions are comfortable with having 11t wide Lanes um in this particular case um that figure was proposing striping 11t Lanes but then there would be a little bit of shoulder wherever the roadway was wider than 22 ft um and that's certainly viable I would not say it would be uncomfortable at all um if there was ever curbs um or edge of the roadway restricting completely 11t Lanes it would be a little bit uncomfortable but it would still be fine um it's something that I've certainly recommended in the past I've seen 10ft Lanes before um when you get smaller you do have to worry about some things uh such as buses but you don't have buses going down the road um and depending on your snowplow vehicle um there might be some consideration if your um plow um that is wider uh a particularly wide one um for snow management um but in general I would say lone foot is fine um for this situation Sarah Katon are you Sarah Sarah Katon um thank you sue um my question was essentially the same um if 11 foot wide lanes are acceptable is that mean acceptable with to edge of pavement to a curb um if we were to add a sidewalk or um and and to the last comment uh we do have storage areas with presumably with moving trucks going in and of that and a lot of landscape equipment um in the current uh Beaver Dam Road um uh industrial condos there so um the use and I believe cell signaling indicated they will have some delivery trucks and um larger Vehicles so my question is really what what's the minimum width that you you know edge of pavement to edge of pavement or edge of pavement to a curb if we had a sidewalk and do we really can we um and so that's my first question and the second question is I understand the sidewalk certainly helps pedestrian safety but when you narrow down a road to a 10ft w width lane or 11t with plane and cyclists are sharing the road does that create a more a a less safe condition for cyclists thank you for the I am not just had double check I wasn't muted um thank you for the questions um in the case that there are our large d delivery trucks um it would be nice to have a little bit of clarification but if if we're talking like UPS trucks and sort of delivery vehicles like that they tend to be somewhat a normal size um as an example buses tend to be fairly transit buses tend to be fairly wide and those when we do have curves we do tend to prer 12T Lanes um for the navigation for that um in the case that there is a potential sidewalk I would imagine it would be an edge of payment on one side and then when you get to the sidewalk you have um a curb adjacent to it um in many situations in Massachusetts that I've been part of uh 12T from the center of the double yellow line to the edge of the curb has been acceptable in many different jurisdictions for or um allowing large vehicle Transit through um a roadway and I will remind that a uh a standard Lane and a highway which also supports you know large semi trucks are also typically 12T wide and so it it is very acceptable to have a 12ft lane um and 11 foot if you're including um a stripe shoulder um to have there as far as cyclists when they're using the roadway um you'll generally want to have a a cyclist be considered about 5T or 6 feet wide and then it's Massachusetts law to have 4 feet of clearance between the handlebars of the cyclist and any passing Vehicles so you have to consider about 10t for a vehicle to pass if we if you're concerned about passing um bicyclists uh which you would not there would be certain areas that you would not be able to pass because it's a double yellow as opposed to a dash stripe because of um sight distance um but at if you're looking at 11t Lanes um there's not too much difference between um 2et a difference if you're passing somebody because you already have to be with nearly fully within the other lane and in order to pass it looks like Sam Gregorio wants to add something at this point go ahead Sam yeah just uh go back to um the general thoughts on the lanes and width um so uh the the general standard minimum uh for a lane um is 11 feet for this type of roadway um again that doesn't mean you couldn't go less it just means that you you're against standard at that point and usually we would have like a design exception that has to be uh put together for providing something of that just a reminder that atwat is a is a public way it's not something like an even like a neighborhood Road it's carrying the Landscaping trucks for our neighbors the Mac other commercial developments um and I say that as um the I couldn't find it in the zoning regulation but I found it in the um the um subdivision RS uh for the town that the minimum Street width on those are 22 ft uh so that would suggest 11 foot Lanes no shoulders and so this point going something less than 11 would generally even against what Manchester would typically want to see on their uh streets themselves um so um right now the the way the graphic is shown is for 11 foot travel Lanes typical for uh a minimum for types of roadways and we do 11s on a lot of different products even on arterial roadways like such as let's say School Street if that was a roadway we were doing to work on for instance major work um so it's not something that doesn't happen actually at quite a bit for that particular we had the advantage here that because it is just a little wider than that 22 uh we do provide ourselves with the ability to have some shoulder um that still goes with it with the edge line so the EDG Line's just not really at the edge of the payment itself um which um you get any kind of cracking or anything like that in the asphalt payment over time you know that that line goes when you do that so providing that little bit of shoulder does help in that sense um so beyond that um any and just going down one of the other aspects in terms of the the rumble strips the reason why those particular rumble strips were were looked at um is at twofold one the town was actually talking themselves about rumble strips and having that as something that we could be uh could provide so that's where we went with that particular effort and that type of R strip was looked at for this particular radway based on the type of radway that it is so there was talk about like longitudinal uh rum strips and ones are the entire length of the rway something you see let's say the the shoulder of a freeway uh which are still used on regular roadways too uh the difference here would be is we're going to have the bikes up against the edge of the roadway a lot on this roadway and so we don't want them going over the rumble strips through the entire length and then second to that is um the ones that are the lane based the ones that were shown in that picture and on the graphic uh they don't have to be that exact width of the lane that we were shown we can cut them down and exra a foot or two on each side still getting the tire of the wheelbase of a tempal vehicle but still allowing the bicycle to bypass on the side of them without touching them um so that's where we're going with that um the other part about the longitudinal rum I believe I brought this up at the last meeting as well is uh where those are usually t uh typically used on wider type roadways with less obstruction so where the natural reaction of when you hit that is to kind of jerk your wheel uh because you think you're falling asleep and running off the shoulder um so and that's just not maybe what's going to happen on out water but the natural inkling of when you hit one of those on the freeway is that's why it's happening is you're kind of drifting off you're doing a lane departure until you correct uh the difference between a freeway or a larger roadway is you have area to correct on Atwater we really don't U that water is not wide we've all kind of established that and there's trees on the side of it all the way along its length so the correctible D the danger would be is if someone were to do a full correction and try to jerk their wheel to get back in the radway without realizing they don't even need to they just do it naturally um there's a chance that you end up off the other side of the road because there the road's just not that wide um and then the obstructions on the side of the road are trees and water um without water guard rail so that's really the the idea behind the the lane type uh rumble strips that we were looking at similar to again something that you would do approaching a toe Booth or approaching a stop control for instance on a major roadway uh usually sometimes if there's a a curve in a roadway approaching a stop sign something of a higher speed you usually actually have a couple rounds of those to kind of warant something because especially when you've been on a long tangent beforehand because you're not thinking the stop sign's going to happen um here we do have the added benefit that actually everybody on the roadway is probably going to know Atwater Avenue is ending X feet away because there's only so many users on atwat and they're all people who are probably using it every day um so yeah um beyond that um I'm sure there might be more comment related to uh the sidewalks so I'll hold that part off until that when we get there great thank you uh Mary I had a overarching question and then a few other questions are we still debating a sidewalk or no sidewalk is that the question okay I know I know Mark Resnik is an advocate for the sidewalk so we don't something will we don't know yet okay um and then I guess I would ask cell signaling kind of what are the biggest delivery trucks you see going there I mean is it going to be bigger than what's goes to the warehouse or anything probably not right there'll be tractor trailers that go to C nor tractor trailers okay um and I'm sure it has been I I there's so many papers I forget um have we discussed the water table of that road I know going over it at certain times it's flooded um have we discussed that as part of this okay um I think we should discuss that because it floods and or freezes um and then this is beyond sell signaling but with Atwater being a public road the town is potentially um proposing an MBTA overlay District up there which would be residential so any discussions with Atwater should be looking at that it's also for residential Road um not just commercial any other questions from the board yes Chris so at the moment no one uses atwat abs for walking very much and that's because it's not very conducive to walking on occasion I do see you're gonna go for a walk in Manchester you're not gonna walk no but that may be because it's not because it's not physically very conducive to walking it's true what I'm wondering is what is this curb about why do we need a curb and can we discuss a a walkway that even not only doesn't have a curb like it's done in a lot of places and maybe not it's not even perious I know Hamilton and wam walking paths along roads that are wood chips or I'm not suggesting that but maybe it's a a a more uh perious surface that could be in the shoulder of the road next to the Wetland and wouldn't disturb the Wetland at all it would allow people to walk safely or more safely than right on the road which they'd have to do now I'm just throwing it out there as an alternative suggestions anyone else on I just I do i' like to Mary was talking about when she talking about the water on the road if if the it appears the intent is to patch the existing Road correct not completely dat up replace it create the new no it's to patch it so if we were to do a sidewalk that would require us to go into extending into the wetlands and what it require us to also put some sort of drainage control on there because we'd be stopping the flow of water from to the I guess it would be the South Side when everything be going to the north side so I think the question is large ger more larger than just simple hatching and replacing do we do we Manchester we want a new roadway down there to service all these additional needs I actually didn't think of the NBTA but if we were to put we would really need to put a new roadway to service the CST CST traffic and the additional traffic on there so I don't know where it goes I have a personal opinion but I tend to agree with the Traffic Engineers that that an 11 foot R wide roadway is the appropriate way without a sidewalk or a curve line and then a sidewalk there but it's just personal opinion but that's a very good point where I think of that drainage control is a big deal on that have we looked at if if the goal is to have a sidewalk with a vertical curve on one side and the sidewalk can at some extents narrow down to four feet for a certain direction still be accessible considered accessible what does that get us for Lane width back Sam gorio looked at that okay and can probably speak to why you concluded that the sidewalk wasn't feasible s yeah yeah so if if the 's separate this into two things if the idea was to eliminate it's not going to eliminate all but let's say eliminate the um the environmental impact of any environmental permitting uh that's basically the idea of keeping the sidewalk within the paved surface that's currently there now so you're not adding in uh impervious land um with that 4 foot absolute minimum on sidewalk with by Pro wag standards um half and six inches of curve so four and a half feet of space dedicated to The Pedestrian and right now we're at a lot of this from that first graphic that show all the whs we're at a lot of locations and this isn't exactly a straight you know shot on the uh on the edge of payment either it's kind of going a little bit in and out too so let said there still going to be a little bit but a lot of that area is now less than 20 feet of roadway remaining and so that'd be area that combined for bicycles and vehicles so where he's positioned at that point where we would want to see 11 lane 11 foot Lanes minimum to not just arching it but that's even again I talked about Manchester's subdivision regulation for a street are 22 feet minimum um if we're we would be at about 195 to 19 ft at a lot of the roadway mix bicycles and vehicles at that point and so any any location where you have cars are going to start passing each other people are naturally going to try to you know move away from the center line when they do that and that's where we get to the idea of you know there's a real good chance especially with a lot of landscape vehicles are going to be a little wider some of them are still going to be you know uh larger truck Vehicles the the idea of if we're down to like 19 ft on the radway width there's going to be potential issues with mirrors and pedestrians on that sidewalk um just from the natural effect of people wanting to stay away from the center line especially another car is passing um so I just want to understand did you say mirrors like this the side view mirrors on a truck yeah even a Ford F-150 which is you know still you know yeah eight and a half feet wide and we're talking again about a lot of this location is 19 foot wide roadway now if there's a sidewalk so again anything that provides a you know minimum what what I would call the minimum need for a roadway width which is 22 and that's not of including shoulders yet um that would require you know widening out the roadway by two to three feet to do that which obviously is all Now new and impervious land and a uh concom question Wetland uh Mass D question for what needs to happen and then on top top of that again um there is the I I heard earlier the idea of a side path type sidewalk um if that were just something that we would be done there's um it wouldn't be something that Tec would design to be against the roadway there would still need to be some type of buffer now between that side path on the roadway especially when there's no curbing to act as the protection uh for The Pedestrian just if they're talking about side path gravel path or whatever it happens to be up against as payment you're it's basically at that point just s pedestrians in the roadway to me um there's no especially at night there's no delineation with inv visibility to see what's different so that's where the curbing usually comes in curbing provides the vertical separation it provides a bumper against a tire unless you're going right unless you're trying to do it most cars aren't going to jump a curve unless you are trying to do it so uh that's where usually that curbing comes in and when you do that we now have the storm water question and what do we do with all the storm water which now has to be treated uh um I know the idea came about pitching the radway back but now that would be if that was the idea and now we're sending all the water to the South Side without drain a new drainage system that's adding a whole bunch of new water to a bunch of wetlands on the southide that wasn't actually happening before which is another you know EP uh D concom and uh potential issue so um whichever way we go there there's going to be now water resources that are directly affected um uh if a sidewalk is added uh in order to maintain what I would believe to be the appropriate 22 feet on at Water Avenue if that was ever going to happen um right now we do have the added benefit again there's there is not a lot of pedestrian traffic that doesn't mean we have to preclude anything from happening in the future uh but the the recommendations that Tec has provided is to maintain the roadway wh andage current form which gives you the 22 feet of Lane traffic plus some extra space for uh shoulder so you're not directly off the edge of the radway um from your lane um thank you for answering the sidewalk question I was just trying to get to that lane width so now I understand it's 10 foot or sometimes less separately apart from the sidewalk there's an issue with surface ponding on the road which may be entirely unrelated to water table I what I've heard is that the due to the construction traffic on the road you're not talking about a repair but you're resurfacing the entire road is that right or did I not hear that no you're not and and I think that it probably would make sense for since this is a public way for Chuck Dam from the DPW to weigh in we haven't heard from him as to what his opinion may be as to the existing conditions whether he's aware of that ponding and what he thinks about Alternatives I I agree because if there is any issue with surface ponding you know sometimes resurfacing can address those things with some you know the resurfacing can address some minor drainage and reading issues at the same time so I think what's missing here is Chuck D looking at all this and giving some he's on vacation it's August I guess he's entitled so maybe maybe we can table number three although I think Sarah had her hand up Sarah Caton do you have your hand on yeah to unmute sorry um thank you um I think that the other question is we're we're struggling to understand the best ways to improve at waterer Avenue and what improvements we would like to see on Atwater for the benefit of the town and people who use Atwater I think the other question is how much of that is the responsibility of cell signaling in this process um and I think there's some responsibility there's going to be added traffic and added um use uh significant new use for the road and the road is um not perfect like many roads in town but whether the entire improvements to uh whether they be um you know storm water resurfacing Andor a sidewalk should be the responsibility of sell signaling I think might help us to get through if we could decide that we might see our way through to the special permit um and then the town may have to address some of the deficiencies on Atwater Avenue or maybe cell signaling meets us a portion you know zero to 100% of Meeting those deficiencies I think that is uh important for this special permit discussion um and I do think Chuck probably is part of that um and then so I'll leave it at that oh the other part of that is we do have kind of an opportunity perhaps to thick the can down the road a bit in that cell signaling is going to build this project in two major phases phase one and phase two so one possibility is to address Atwater Avenue with the um striping and traffic caling as proposed in phase one but then ask that a that this issue be Revisited um in phase two good point Sarah do you um have any objection to us not resolving the details of this issue tonight by kicking this one over to September also um Laura is not going to be able to be here in August on August 26th yeah I think so I think we're going to need a couple of different proposed motions that we're going to have to vote and we may not have agreement but I think we're going to have to make a decision that's my that's my opinion we're we may not have full agreement on it um and I think the question is not what is the ideal uh condition for Atwater Avenue but what of the ideal or near ideal condition of Atwater Avenue is the responsibility of cell signaling in the special permit that's the issue that to me is before us for in the next month I I um thanks s for what she said I think that's a great suggestion to whatever we let's get to agreement on what's within the CST scope with the input from DPW and potentially flag this for you know phase two further improvements further discussion I would like to get Chuck and Nate's opinion on the specific as well as um West and Samson so I know there they're not ready to do that tonight but on specific um you know the rumble strips and are they good for bikes and this curve bump out which I think starts to change the character of the road from kind of a rural road to feels like it's part of a Suburban you know cuac or sort of development so um what's the kind of if the sidewalks not feasible um within the scope of what we're doing right now then what are the best you know collection of improvements that sort of preserve the character of the road but make it safer for bikes and and slow the traffic and you know do everything can but then don't take it to like let's not do too much let's not necessarily glom it up with her extensions and stuff so way on that and West sorry one other thing just to throw in um from the back court here and that is we had proposed a um kind of a working group with Mark and I know he's been sick and Gordon and um maybe we can actually have a meeting of a uh Gordon Mark and I'd be happy to join that um to come up with three proposals for the voting for for the special permit you know a phased approach um an Allin approach and a um you know do nothing approach or something that's kind of three different phases that we can kind of uh propose to the board and and figure out which one um has the majority of us for it so maybe we'll if that's amenable we can we have that working group that G I don't think you ended up meeting did you Gordon I've had I've had a discussion with actually a discussion with you and discussion with Mark res offline but that's it right but let's let's actually get together and and maybe come up with three proposals if that makes sense or two proposals yeah and Nate yeah that's a good idea y Mary um I'm happy to be on that I I know Sarah's busy with a lot of committees so I'm happy to be on that as well um and you have two residents with their hands up I think I just want to get through this and then we'll take comments on self signaling before we move on to um so we're agreed that we're going to kick the rest of this off until September 9th is that correct unless there could be a meeting between now and then but that doesn't seem practical it seems like Laura won wouldn't be able to be here [Music] on answer the question for Gordon and the um the other members of the committee number six also talks about potential improvements that something that Chuck Dam and others weigh in [Music] on I think quite a bit that could be combined in that atwat and the traffic flow issues and I know Mark Resnik has some specific ideas and um comments on those so that'll be number three number six and is there another one number nine number nine that's just construction I don't mean just but it's construction management it's not about a permanent Improvement I mean if you want to wrap and that's the timing I think that's it then yeah I I do I do think that chapter name thing should weigh in on this and uh and also I me being my background is working as a Consulting engineer and architect I love to have the the the professionals also participate discussion but we'll have our our discussion first and see where that goes we'll be more find us you need I do we'll have nice clean defined where we're going to go unless there's an objection from others on the board I do want to just um lead into this part of the hearing the fact that we did receive an analysis from the finance committee um everyone can a chance to look at that we don't on that tonight if we want to include there for special perm but one should be part of the public record ofing and that um some of the specific conclusions were that their expectation of the total tax revenue was going to exceed the amount projected um by the initial review based upon the fact that properties in Manchester are assessed higher foot than those in ifwi which what PR review was based on um the conclusion was that the annual tax revenue um uh 370,000 to 430,000 page one completed in 2027 and 7509 two is completed inse 2033 um and the other thing was the building permit fees but I think Sarah Katon had an issue on that but they thought that the fees received by the town during construction would be around 3,000 both 2026 and 2027 um um and they this was one of the conditions that they wanted to have included in the special permit was a third party inspection consult to make anything else the other memos that we got you going to read those in so we got a inner office memo remind me to mark lovsky from Sam gorio and then we got an email um today from Darren right right he was talking about that a little bit right everyone should have a chance so look at that too and then I think we public comment we received excuse me are you done talking about the roadway because I've been waiting um just one minute no you're not being ignored even though you feel lck I see that your hands up um we did have oh the other was the email from Li Thomas that she already reference did you have anything right anything else from the board sy's comment and then there is one or two others Sandy Rogers you're up okay thanks I just wasn't sure um so I just want to say it's good to hear both Samuel and others speaking about concom a lot um one of the main considerations is is the runoff on that road um and I wanted to know if there has been a traffic study done and an estimate in All Phases as to the true traffic that this complex is going to create um not only the amount of employees and cars the ongoing amount of deliveries the facilities management everything else um is that information available in the original traffic study yes which is on the planning board part of the website with the CST tab you should be able to find it there and that separates out both phase one and phase two I believe so okay thank you I think that's very important when determining long-term who's responsible for for ensuring that the runoff is taken care of properly on this road because it's pertinent to the town water supply thank you great um Dean did you have a comment related to cell signaling yes thank you um after hearing the discussion on the how hard it's going to be to put a sidewalk on Atwater AV um as a pedestrian who sometimes has to leave his car at Beaver Dam Road um one other solution might be for a pedestrian bridge over 128 to Mill Street to solve The Pedestrian and bike access to this site um those ramps on School Street are getting harder and harder to cross and that could potentially bypass all that for pedestrian and bicyclists to connect with the town so it's just another idea I think the town might be able to get a good grant for that if it were but that would be a potential solution to the um sidewalk problem to consider that's all thank you great thank you Mark Resnik you have your hand up Mark Resnik oh oh that was um from earlier I just wanted to um when you were talking about Chuck um I had met with him last week about this and um uh um sidewalk issue and um he also uh talked a little bit about the Calvert and um you know uh that uh the Public Works may be able to participate in some of the work but uh again it's it's all up for kind of negotiation and permitting and and to see what what um what can be be be done there so um I guess there's still negotiating And discussing the Culvert replacement and utilities so is anyone from s signaling want to address that right now I don't think this discuss this okay anything further Mark no okay no um I think then I'll take a motion to continue the self signaling hearing to September 9th seven just sure motion second second all in favor Sarah Sarah sorry yes sorry thank you thank you thank you very much all right [Music] to I I really need I forgot to bring M well I have a back right does anyone have an apple power IE my Apple at it's IDE some environmentally sensitive walkway along side you just need to wait for Peter to come back it was great one of my daughter's working weing a 35b pack idea books I saw yesterday I do my own drawings my own projects I take old I took the old high school old high school drawings took the all right on to the harbor is there a motion to reopen the hearing on and second all those in favor Mary yes yes I yes yes yes yes I guess we have Sarah thumbs up we have to do a roll call here still here here here great here um okay um B is there anything that you want to add uh regarding specifically issues of lighting uh rafting boat washing Cooling and information that you give to transient voters when they come and tie up at your do uh so lighting I did forward examples of lighting Tok still have posts the lights that conditions say no lights on the post which would have dark light dark sky light on them to have very low there are there are solar lights that are literally as high as my boot with lights that shine down onto the dock um a few of those strategically placed as I understand the O club uses them and they do direct the light very just right down at uh shoe height so you can see what you're stepping on uh fueling uh the town has no plan no location for fueling we're actually helping trying to help Manchester marine and brocker deal with future issues with licensing and permitting there's a company that does doeses this takes care of all the priting but citing of that will be on Manchester Mar property uh rafting is already regulations some lighting rafting fueling washing boats that's if that's a condition to to move this forward then I would say if there's a water band certainly we've done that in the past two years ago we had a drought the water van we did not allow people to wash their boats with that I guess I was thinking about the recreational Bo right right so aots men don't use fresh water to wash their boats that's not not a thing for them so right the reart recreational EV watering I'm not going to argue that uh Mark res anything to add my computer is di so I can't tell if she might um any comments questions from the board I do have one question so find I'm I'm trying to get a grasp of what for lack of a better word a utility utility poll or stack that would be available for the votes that be P up oh gosh so uh wish I kept the pictures with me I did provide that uh it's power post so as power as electrical power as electrical power in water in water and then typically they have lights light but integral part ofal part of the tower for for saf on dog but so you buy this as a unit and you install it and from 900 to $3,000 depending on how Jedi you want it to be okay that is your intent though just not specified yet you don't know they kind of look like this like this yeah kind like that yeah the lights like pretty benign it's not it's not so here's actually and this is the one that we're discussing specifically it's it's slimmer version it does have the hose hanger on it which I am not in favor of oh there shallow how tall is that uh these are typ this one here is 36 in High 3 ft yeah how what's the frequency on the uh how was it spacing more L right so um I was thinking every four uh I was thinking four to five of these or the idea being that the new 500 ft would accommodate largely um for any open nters would being accomodated down on that end so we would have power post down on that end down towards the draw bridge there's been some discussion about whether or not we would have one up near the lamp for the staff to have access to or if we we had a specific overnighter that spot so four five have one more question I I was having dinner last night with my very boat crazy people friend of mine they travel they live down in the South Shore they travel everywhere all of them they were up here as matter of fact couple weeks ago but they said to me said how are you dealing with trash when the boats when they when they pull up their just drop off their trash how do they how do you do that so uh actually been using the trash barrels up in there's not a lot right now you imagine small kitchen bag going up into trash barel park that's there's been no overflow issue with trash at any time if you had 500 fet of dock I imagine more overnighters I would probably direct them to dumpster fish oh I was told that the boulders just dropped the trash any bear no they're in there're out no we've had so I would say over the five years we probably had two voters who just he their backs out onto the dock and wave to the to my staff and I and said no no no that's that's not how we do so I took a trip down over the weekend I went there in the morning and went in the afternoon just to see I talked to your staff and there was very few people there in the morning it probably like 9:30 10:00 and but I went back at the end of the day and there was the the was full all the way up to it and it was boat circling around waiting waiting someone to leave pull in so there's definitely definitely a need to use for so before those dos went in it was many boats circling the fisherman's fear being completely overwhelm the fish St so now some folks might have to wait [Music] andot used to be busy in the morning when there was breakfast in restaurant we haven't got everyone that open breakfast place maybe a floating breakfast place sorry um can you give us a brief I've asked for it multiple times not from you but um uh the we've never gotten the concom decision um you said that there was the condition of orders and I've just never seen it uh I've asked and asked I've emailed but oh we we had provided that order conditions um I think after the second meeting we we can send it again though that would be great can you send it to the planning board members we'll send Mark and he can did you send it to Mark or send it to Gail send it to Gail and she can it we had sent it to Gail we well we will forward that again yep wasn't that part of the sorry for interrupting isn't it part of the the application the bound application to be clear so we uh we've received the order conditions for um the fisherman's facility for the Morris project not for Reed Reed we just got the certificate U meeper certificate so we haven't filed with conservation yet but the moris order conditions which we have received we've um provided to G okay and so and then you'll be going for reads to conom yes yeah definitely and then just my other question was um B were you able to get any more firmer numbers on the water and electricity rate that chared that would be possible for to the the idea of water and electricity uh it's an upcharge the town would charge more money to be at the dock usage I absolutely have no ability to predict are there Consultants that can do that to say okay if we expand with you know 22 docks and water you know water and electricity because I'm just trying to get a clear Financial picture I just don't have a clear so pict if if we had slips where um we knew we could accommodate 40 foot boats three 40 foot boats two 30 foot boats but we don't so what we have is just linear space we could have one two we could have 4 60 flot boats show up and or we could have eight 30 foot boats show up so without having any and we don't we don't have any metric we don't have water and electricity available to Motors so I don't have any data that I could use to project out right isn't it going to be possible we do when we do this we do this you'll get built on a monthly basis water and electricity so you'll get a really quick sense of what the expenditure is right so I I would assume that everything would be metered so we' know what was being used and if it's if it's way above what we are anticipating you can adjust that's what that's the beauty of the app right it's a really quick solution I can edit I can edit I can edit right now the amount that we charge at the do and it would be in place for tomorrow that's that's how easy it is to so is it one meter I mean I sorry for my ignorance is it one meter for the so I don't know about Massachusetts but in Maine you can't resell electricity so we aren't selling electricity we're selling dock space at X number of feet per day so if we look at our water use and electric use and see that the fee isn't high enough to recover that and all of the related expenses or it cuts into what we're expecting generating then we can adjust that fee upward and it could be on a scale it's going to be very slow in May building in June through mid September and then cycling back down you can be like uber could could be like generally you don't do that you set your per fee that's that's how commun do it so and then one water meter right one water meter one electric meter the post would not be we wouldn't know specific usage for a specific Bel we know know daily we wanted to do it that way or weekly or monthly not per vessel two hands up up there so um Sarah Sarah Katon hi um are do we have a final uh draft conditions or we working off those from last meeting that's my and then I have two other comments I SP when I spoke with Mark shortly before the meeting started he said he had uh drafted conditions on Reed Park but not from here and he was going to send them to me I left my house I haven't seen them yet uh Mark I don't think you're still there I think he's off at this point okay um so he has done a draft for re Park and as soon as we get it we'll send it to everyone we'll certainly have it um everyone will have it with in the next couple of days um and then he'll have Morse Pier done he said in the next few days um okay so then so then um we probably can't vote this tonight if we don't have final conditions um so then I have two uh additional um conditions that maybe we can pass to Mark um the first is I think this discussion of electricity and water is a good one um and I think we should have a condition that the electricity and water is metered um so it can be charged now we'll let the Town Administrator and the town um charge to the to this expense account maybe to facilitate that um or some language to that effect and then the um and the other question or or comment on conditions uh that did not come up again tonight is that Bayan I think you had said you would be willing to get rid of the finger dock that is perpendicular to the main dock um approximately where the harbor um Master boat is docked right now um is that still uh consistent with what you're willing you you find feel it's acceptable okay it would be helpful to for f f to just detail that with some language so or or give us the plan revised plan that reflects that um and also um to give us language that is specific to the lights um that the that the illumination will be um you know FL mounted or or or essentially you know no more than two inches above the deck or whatever it is going to be um and that the utility poles are going to be of you know approximately this this many of them at this uh height because I think otherwise we're we're kind of a little bit in the dark on that I'm literally in the dark right now I'm sitting outside so a couple of things there was it sounds like the dock is uh that little piece of dock is off the table if we could get FKS to detail the um lights in in a written document that says this is what's going to happen and then my suggestion uh for discussion among others is meter the electricity and the water and maybe what I'll I'll follow up with Mark Resnik when he's feeling better is include he can take a a first cut at that kind of thing and then buy and can review it and see if it fits the concern so can I just ask one question because we received a lot of documents over the last day or two and I may be getting them confused but there were letters from residents and I think there was one on this about there is fiscal impact there is right yes we had a we had an email from Lorraine Ian this yes right thank you for that reminder and I I just thought in that she made some good points about um resident interest in seeing that if it's possible can I interject Sue yes um I asked Sarah melish about this question um and she said that the um fincom did uh discuss these um projects back when the grants are being applied for so perhaps we can ask her to summarize their discussions great idea and I think if we could repost them or something on the website that might be helpful too actually can I I'm gonna amend that bay on can you connect with her and get a a um through and with Mark just to coordinate that since I'm away great thank you the refence was to select you can't hear speak up I can do that uh the the this email addresses um the select board and the select board uh has heard all of the the same detail Lev detail and voted to move this forward and actually came to the last planning board meeting and spoke in support three members so I think the select board would I'm not going to speak to them but I think they've done their due diligence and receed the the information that they need to be comfortable that it's feasible and that this facility will not cost voters of this town certainly uh the Reed Park project is 100% funded by two grants there's there's no Waterway funds there's no tax dollars there's no Town dollars being spent on that project of the $1.65 million estimate for that project none coming from town so I I think the way the way I read that letter and I could be wrong was that because the select board doesn't do the financial analysis they had just come up with a governance policy that all projects look at that which we have in our bylaw anyway so we as a board need to do that for special permit question anything else from the board on partk more La I was just going to say that on the conditions I mean I think we've heard some questions we've had a number of letters of support so I think it would be good to kind of collect those as part of the documentation of the project I recall by on you saying that the commercial fisherman community supported this I I just don't remember if that was one of the letters letter okay so I think it would be useful to kind of collect that with um that was for yeah you get that I do remember that now yeah thanks for joging my memory and then if the select board has has the select board you said they voted to yes move it forward y um so I think that's part of the you know documentation and then the conditions may want to say that it's it's a little bit of a chicken in the egg but it's also dependent on receiving the second order of conditions from the concom and that they would um that would pass it and I think that together with uh what their M could provide you know provides a lot of background I See's got his hand up too so he's so DPW might have something to add but those are the ones that come to mind as um you know kind of points of reference and I'm in favor of the lower light not the vertical standing element but the lower um mounted kind of plush mounted or per mounted however if we did it that way you'd still have to have your utility P for your water and your yeah it's just fewer vertical elements kind of in the fusion so the way they all come with lights so dark SK but as we just would not have that the separate lower unit spacing to to make sure it's safe we don't want anyone to drip no I agree if there's a certain minimum foot candle that needs to be or average foot candle that needs to be met then that should be met uh Greg did you want to add something GRE I just yeah I was just G to thank you I was just going to follow up on um select board's review and the finances there they did review the the numbers that I think ban has also presented to you and feel very comfortable that the uh Transit box in particular will be a net revenue gain um fairly significantly um in the $1 140 $150,000 range as a net gain to the town as a conservative number um in that those dollars then can um certainly be a strong source of funding for future um Harbor projects from dredging to float repairs Etc so they did review those numbers and they felt comfortable with them and that the um they are quite um convinced that this is a from a from a financial perspective a net positive for the town uh DPW waiting thanks yeah um so I just wanted to jump back to the utilities portion um so for a water meter we would only install one meter uh as a Master Meter and then I assume would be the same for electric um I guess to get into the numbers we can make some kind of small assumptions I think Bayan previously said that uh having utilities we could charge go from charging $3 a foot to $5 a foot so you know assuming you know you get a 25 foot boat in there that's essentially a $50 difference uh for each night uh that a boat is staying uh that is ties the utilities the charges $721 per 100 cubic feet of water I used which is uh 748 gallons um so I think we can pretty confidently say that um you know water usage is going to be inconsequential to uh you know that rate and eating into any of that profit um electric you know I'm guessing is going to be a bit a bit higher not knowing exactly how much you know boats use if a you know a larger boat comes in is using air conditioning or the like that you know they're using you know even call it 10 to 20 kilowatt hours you know the rate we have from National Grid I think is on the range of like 25 to 30 cents per kilowatt hour so again we're only really talking about potentially you know5 to10 doar of electric um you know per boat uh on a given night when we're potentially charging you know $50 more just having those utilities on site thanks thank you places charge a a lot they do I know my friend said this is really cheap he did did your dock he said this is really inexpensive to come so the potential is there for that facility too so as always I point out this is a great means for this Harbor to self- sustaining not be a burden on the taxpayers which it it was 13 years ago to stop being uh a harbor that has the highest some of the highest Waring tees in the state they were the highest for a while but some the highest in the state beating up on the voters here is money generating from Vats from away to help me and keep this har har and without this what's the plan to go back to raing Ming rates to going to taxpayers who spend so much money on things like past and schools and two communities seems like a a pretty great way for the harbor to be self thank you Sarah kraton did you wanna I have two other uh um I think one of the things that is a good thing for potential small boers in town is the inside the um use of the inside of the stock for small boats and I'm wondering um if there's a kind of a moing l i mean I don't want to micromanage how this gets used but are there any conditions that we should be thinking about I guess for the um inside you know the shallow side of the stock um I do think that that is a benefit to people who want to have a small boat is that they will have plenty of um tie up space but um are there any conditions that should be applied to that um May uh I I don't have a specific um condition um and then the other is um again I'm not sure it's a special permit condition but I we've talked about the fact that when there's a big blow in you know a a you know tropical storm Debbie that um Waring holders particularly from the outer areas maybe should be able to tie up to this Dock and not have it be a transient dock is that um I'm not sure that the either of those are special permit conditions but rather Harbor Master policy so I just want us to think about whether they should be conditions in some way or so maybe bu you have some specific thoughts yeah those those are both absolutely relevant and in practice uh the 250 ft we have down there now is already used for area 7even loers in the event of the storm that's that's been a practice and we haven't charged uh we have not tried to take financial advantage of know boats that could be trouble and that would be the continued practice obviously 500 fet will get us a lot more of those S voters safely um I think that that's something that the HC should put forward in the rules and regulations change what do you think Chris so Chris Chris is on the haror advisory yeah and then as far as the uh the idea of maybe taking advantage of that space on the inside of the dock I I agree with Sarah 100% we can look at uh right now we have a maximum length of 12 for boats tying up at Town docks I think there's an opportunity there that we could offer something for Vats 13 15 ft as well that would be another Harbor advisory commity thing number two this isn't built yet and just like the current docks it's going to figure itself out we we do rent space to people with 12 foot Inflatables or boats now who don't have a morning there's room enough so that we've been able to do that for $200 a season to get a place to tie up their dingy if we could expand that to both 135 ft and that would also take some of the burden off those folks who might be waiting for a warrant might prefer something to do instead so that would be a benefit as well so so just to close that out I think you're sorry to sue to jump in but um I think you're arguing that that's a policy matter not a special permit condition yeah I think I am okay I think I agree with you for the harb advisory committe so unless there's anything else I think that our plan will be assuming Mark starts feeling better um that we'll all see some draft special conditions um for both of these projects within the next week or so so we should have plenty of time to review them before our September meeting um and we should be able to make a decision then that sound pardon you have a couple hands up since my computer died um who who oh somebody just went down but Sandy Rogers else El I was the other person Gail Gail you're still on oh good um of course you're still on I'm always here you can't get rid of me I'm sorry I don't want I don't get rid of you um you're up again Andy Rogers hi hi um I thought you were saying Gail so sorry sorry um I just have a question and I don't know if this is part of what goes to the concom for Reed Park or what you need to consider but um is there any work that needs to be done to read Park to get the utilities to the dock and any considerations regarding that the safety of the utilities because of what Sarah mentioned regarding um poor uh weather conditions um you know special treatments that need to be done um especially with electricity Etc um has that been looked at so yeah the last meeting uh in particular it was agreed that the tree Warden would be part of uh the process getting the utilities from the street down to the pier to ensure that none of the foliage or the beautiful trees were impacted negatively by this so absolutely uh there will be somewhere uh in the park getting those utilities across to here condition as far as that's part of what's covered in the grant yes yeah absolutely that's and maintenance over like you know whatever period of time needs to be considered in the budget for all this right so maintenance is uh part of what we will cover with the revenue and actually uh the projected revenue from Morse Pi uh is almost double what our budget is right now for the care of floats and peers and town so uh Lo more than enough Revenue to ensure that these facilities remain tiptop first class places like they are now and once um I I I just want to reiterate just with any any project I think that we should have updated um specs we should have a view I know you weren't given the budget but I'm just as a citizen I think it's very important that we have this it sounds like we're not only having pilings we're also adding extra poles for the utilities for the water for the lighting and all this kind I I I truly think that's important also um There are rules and regulations in Massachusetts around docks I'm certain you'll have the right people that are installing something like this but when I was hearing um the select board talking about making it a walkway and everything um the pitch at low tide is well beyond what is acceptable um by regulations and then when you start to think about the length of the dock who's going to be overse overseeing the safety of citizens that are um walking on it that are maybe you're talking about adding benches and sitting and sitting up higher and I think that all of that needs to be looked at very carefully before anything like this is a is approved yet let alone have it in front of the town citizens to decide thank you um Mary or Peter can you tell me if there's anybody else there is no should we close the hearing I would love to have a motion to close this hearing and continue it to September 9th we're going to close it or we going to continue or we're going to continue it thank you SE at let's say 8 o' um hello this is Dean I have a comment but I'm not sure if I should say it now or wait till the public comment SE section of the agenda but it is regarding this project okay now is the time okay well um I found a plan um from the town hall that showed the the outline of the work and I had a comment earlier at an earlier meeting about the um historic impact and the the visual of this um and what I've decided what I've looked at from this is to consider removing section everything from section BB to FF that you know section BB can stay will add a finger dock for the fisherman but to remove that 70 foot section of Reed Park and put it at the other end along the railroad tracks um that would go a long way towards minimizing the impact of our Scenic Harbor and still have some growth for for the town uh dock space um so that that was the the um idea that I had to for considering thank you thank you is that possible so uh the configuration as proposed as presented is most beneficial uh we're fronting railroad tracks and a waste treatment plant we're not fronting homes and businesses which still benefit from this um f which which section don't have Park so re Park goes down along the railroad tracks and to the draw bridge the other section the Morse Pier comes around from Morse Pier along the dredge line that was done in 2017 and 18 around to repart with fingers that will accommodate 6 to7 laob stre so there actually you you folks should have received you afforded a u simple rendering of what this would look like I I can show this on screen if I can just get permission to share as talking unfortunately I think the that you click on his Square um I get host disabled participant screen share so visualize what he so we're removing part of the fisherman's facility and then putting it down on coming down here and then we make we make the turn and we make the turn to where you are now he wants to add it further down if I correctly remove that most of that put it down on the other end but the other end is already taken the fish needs be next to their facility it the history of the town I I I I personally don't think that moving the fishermen from their home is beneficial character they've been there for centuries we were adding a fishing dock for the a finger dock for the fishermen so that there would be two instead of the one that's there now so that expands their facility and you can move your facility away it was a mistake to kind of put it towards the road like that and block the view from from Beach Street um this what I'm suggesting would open up so that we could have our Scenic Harbor View and not um all this commercial boating stuff in our residential Town um I'm just trying to be less Reckless with our Harbor it's a beautiful Harbor and I hate to see it exploited this way I don't I don't think it's an exploitation to ensure the commercial entity that's been in that part of the harbor that specific part of the harbor for centuries that's why we're improving it we're adding a finger here was built in 1969 with private money by a gentleman who wanted to ensure fish of this community at a home going for I support that I wholly support I support that I support at the head of the harbor the part of the harbor where they have always been not detri the public totally supports the commercial fishermen we do not support I have I have no I have to cut you off I know I know you do know I get it but I just want to make one point that the public completely supports the commercial fishermen in the town 100% we just are having trouble in ring adding docks that don't support the town don't support the residents don't support Moorings and are just for a three-month tourist season which is not going to help the town in general thank you sue Thank You by one more response so I would encourage uh all the folks who come and have questions and comments to and speak to me in my office to look at the plans to try to give the harbor Department the opportunity to share the rationale why bring this to the H Department Department to bring forward for the benefit of the Town come see no don't take it personally I don't take it personally but it's it is disappointing a lot of commenting at meetings but nobody comes to ask the questions before I did credit to Mary gold star well I didn't want that Mary does I thought this was the venue where we were supposed to give our opinions but me too I would love to meet with you Mr Bion anytime name the date I would love to sit down and talk about the harbor thank you so much thank you thanks for your comments all right now uh a motion to continue this hearing to September 9th at 800m so moved second second all those in favor okay Sarah yeah and I guess we have to do a roll call again uh Mary Foley yes yes do I don't I don't think I do sorry SE sorry um okay we just have a few more things yeah he he so Chris did you want to quickly talk about MBTA yes I think Mark was going to do it he's not here try to fill his shoes on this so Mark has been able to get a grant from MHP to pay for the propensity for development study in the mvta districts uh we don't know when the study will be ready we're hoping for the end of SE September um we also asked R kg for a date they could do the feasibility impact study for economic impact on the town and they said they could have it done by November 1 November 1 so we maybe as an alternative we could get the fincom to do the economic feasibility analysis and the benefit of that there are two benefits one is they could get it done very quickly theoretically and secondly it wouldn't be some third party consultant from Boston or somewhere would be us the town doing it so um one of the things that might be a useful vote would be to authorize uh Sarah M well authorize Sarah kraton to oh Sarah Katon request the economic feasibility study from the fincom and can I ask you something about that so has the fincom been um approached yet about so I've talked to Sarah melish about it and she says that she'd be happy to aw so so could I make that motion to authorize Sarah to um make a request to the fincom to do this economic feasibility analis which means that we won't ask for the independent consultant corre and we think that by having fincom do it it provides the data that residents have been requesting yes will be received in a credible way likely more so than an independent consultant and in enough time for people to consider will it be will it provide the objectivity of that if people want yeah if we do it ourselves what data points are we asking for with data points yeah so what what what is what is the um analysis going to show that income uh basically it's going to show what the impact on both cost of services that the town would in incur including School versus The increased tax revenue from the units that might be built and that would be the same data that we'd received from an independent consultant I'm I don't know yeah yes that's what that's what the study would do okay so we're essentially getting the same study that we would I think it would be probably a shorter because it's being done by a bunch of Town volunteers but I think we think you know they did this for uh the 40b project SLV yeah yeah the SLV uh and they did it for the for the sell signaling project wellution right because we can't wait till November 1 no that's not and I should I want to say one other thing about this that Mark talked to Emily about this and apparently um there there a couple of problems going out at once one is every consultant in the state is working on these Fe ability studies yeah the second thing is is that the state has received something like I'm not going to be the exact right numbers but something like 50 uh pre um submitt requests for a review as we did and 65 completed town meeting votes so they've got 110 as of two weeks ago 110 roughly maybe more but it's a lot I mean that's so that's the question is whe whether we're going to where's the state in terms of their review and how they're going to do it so there may be extensions provided who knows we don't know what's gonna happen but I don't we should we can we finish the conversation about the who we want this to do this stud I'd like to ask a question about what you just said that's kind of scary well it's probably scarier for the state than for us well yeah sure yeah yes you said something something was going to be available in September with another consultant I heard November and September so September would be for the propensity for development okay which would tell us what the estimate would be for actual units to be built every year for the next are two different studies the financial impact Financial one has to depend well you can't do the financial one until You' got the propensity right but we're going to do that with the consultant yes that we've plan because we got a grand for us so we're going to start that and we'll have that by September whatever 30th did you say Ved did you say 30th Chris is that what they told you oh I don't know I'm not going to be held to what date I don't know okay so we get that in and then the fincom does their analysis of cost yes and of course the fincom doesn't have to wait until we get the actual right study to begin they can start thinking about how many students would be per unit you know do it all on a per unit basis yeah and in terms of the deliverable that we would get if we went to a consultant and they're I can understand they're busy right now because everybody's trying to do this do we know what those criteria are that they'd be looking at and and what metrics they would use lot of things actually Sarah melish asked for was an example of a we get an example and then the finop could model there ex calculations on that then we know we Apples to Apples well we can use the um the Needum was it need I mean there are some there are some that are done done and they're on their town website so if you've already if the task force has already pulled a couple of those and you can meet with the fincom and talk about their methods and the deliverable and I think that would help to get a level of confidence in the product no no no shade on the fincom but just you know wanting to make sure that we're going doing the same type of analysis I would just have a concern and that we um try to look at multiple Avenues because September is when fincom ramps up their budget season um so I would question if they actually have the bandwidth to do this but um that would be one concern that I would have um any suggestions well my suggest is that we would have asked for this six months ago when we were talking about it but um I think uh um I mean if our town planners reached out to all of the companies he can think of that does these analysis and they're all busy I mean I I guess I don't have any other suggestions but I don't know the answer to that but other than tapping into is it Emily is that our consultant name just to have her help us as much as she can yes sure she's probably completed some right she might let us she doesn't do economic Fe or impact analysis but her the partner does was who we asked to do it and that's when they said they would have it done by no member and she would know what is required of the stud yeah sure she'll I'm sure she will help so is everybody okay with we probably should we vote on it we probably should I made a motion is there a second second all in favor so was the motion just to ask pin yes yes hi yes or no yes yes scary Sarah where are you Sarah you look like a a horror movie not you personally are you looking at the med show no I actually I'm GNA sign off um and I'm gonna say good night because um my batteries are just about gone thank you so wait sorry Chris you started talking about the timetable around um oh so so we I guess there's some lack of facts facts we don't know when the state's going to do our review we know they are reviewing over a hundred uh submissions crazy so if they and I don't know whether this is it's late forget probably talked about this suggestion it let's not speculate okay are there any liaison committee report Arbor management plan Advisory Group they come and gone no um ah uh nothing on that proun and we've already covered the NBTA task force I did send everybody a memo of dates to just stick in your calendar temporarily for public Outreach informational um events that we schedule um when did you send that you said you sent that I think it was in the packet the all right um here you can have this one thanks I do have one thing there we're hoping to have a joint meeting with the task force on March 22nd I don't know March March 2 August 22nd a week from Thursday I don't know is are people avail just was that intended to be a public hearing or just no just so can we do it virtually sure oh yeah of course yeah I'm not okay just we'll just have a the we have minutes to approve I believe we uh thank you um any other public comment okay uh approval of minutes July night I move they be approved all in favor any other matters not anticipated great I'm about a motion to [Music] adjourn I'll second it all in fav