for office space um the building in the back will be utilized for the service the auto uh service um operation the front parking lot is proposed to be regraded uh to comply with ada8 compliance uh and provide an ADA Compliant parking stall unloading Zone as well as access into the office space and then that area restriped there'll be a total of four parking spaces in the front we are proposing to modify the curb uh on the side of the building currently there's a drive aisle on the side of the building it's approximately 20 and A2 fet wide we were proposing to widen that the 25 ft uh which would be the Shaded area um I'm going to come back and talk about that in just a moment um a little bit further uh in the back part of the property the existing Stone lot was proposed to remain we identified a potential layout for parking um in that stone area proposed to include or install a trash enclosure uh in this area back here for the uh trash and recycling facilities in effort to help screen the uh parking lot and in response to a site meeting we had with uh Mr Turk we are proposing to add fencing that'll extend across here with a gate across the driveway around or down the side of the property um to provide uh with privacy slats that provide screening there's landscaping and fence along the back and there's also an existing fence on the side uh which abots the other Flanigan facility here as well as a Detention Facility uh in this upper right corner if you will there's a tower in the back of that property is that on our on there's not a tower on this property the tower the other one a communication Tower I believe is is to the south of our property fine yes um in addition to that I'm just going to kind of skip through here just a little bit give you an overview uh currently from a drainage perspective uh the rear parking lot drains to an inlet that's located in the stone lot that from there the water is pumped currently out to the front parking lot to drain out the willow um you can see the piping on the ground uh in in response to meeting Mr Turk the decision to try to address that and and really resolve that issue we're proposing to put an inlet in extend piping across lot 7 uh to another Inlet here uh and then into the township detention Basin that's going to eliminate this uh hokey I couldn't think of the right word there uh hokey design system here uh and provide a system that can be reliable um and utilized and will have a life expectancy uh really done the correct way an inlet is also proposed here in the back part of lot 7 because currently there's a low area there in that water are just pond so we're really cleaning up the drainage conditions here with these modor improvements there will be a need for an ACC or a drainage easement across this property but Mr Young is also the owner of the current property that uh and there's been discussion with them and he is uh he is aware of that and they are working through those particular details from a landscaping perspective there's existing mature trees along the front of the property they're proposed to remain we are proposing to add some Shrubbery around the lands uh the parking lot the front to buffer that and provide a little Aesthetics um and we're also providing proposing shade trees around the perimeter of the parking lot again to provide some added buffering um and to provide some shade there is one shade tree here in the back that we're going to have to eliminate because of an existing utility easement uh along the property line uh but the balance of these shade trees will remain now we had originally proposed privacy slats in the fencing uh in this Southern portion of the property however after further evaluation we found that that fence technically is the neighboring Property Owners so in Li of the Privacy slats here uh and in discussion with Mr Turk we're going to propose add some planting some skip laurel shrubs in this area to screen that uh that portion of the property in Le of the Privacy slats uh lighting uh we out performed a lighting study at the property to evaluate uh the coverage of the existing lights we note them on the plan then we also identified some areas where lighting was deficient we're adding uh a wallmounted light we're replacing an existing wall mounted light adding another wall mount light here in the building and then adding a pole mounted light so we have ample light coverage across that uh that parking lot and that property and all the lighting is down lighting it's pure down lighting the with regard to the improvements um it actually will have a very minor increase in inous coverage approximately 347 Square ft based on that it is not classified as a major development under the storm water regulations or the township ordinances storm waterer management measures are not required the proposed storm water management measures are really conveyance uh improvements not management measures um from I'm going to go back to the site plan in terms of the proposed use total of eight parking spots are required to be provided can I interrup you before you go further for the strong Water Management to the adjacent laot there will be any deed or easement deed will be created there will be an easement uh for the proposed law along the proposed sewer line I'm sorry storm line that something as a condition of any approval issued by the board will provide uh copies of that easement to the board for record and actually for review before final filing and then you're access to Rotary way uh rotary way the the tension Basin and rotary way appears to be completely located within the RightWay of rotary way which is Municipal loan that's corre um if the town requires uh an easement for that area or in agreement uh we can obtain and seek such looks like some typ of yeah that certainly be a condition of approval correct so two two easements will be obtained from the neighboring property owner as well as from the town one from lot 7 and then one from the township and the one from the township is if that's required because it's technically within the RightWay that's a St we we own 130 foot wide right of way there very unusual yeah very unusual um with regard uh I mentioned just a moment ago under the requirements is requirement of eight parking spaces total we have 35 parking spaces throughout the property so customers will be parking in the front employees will be parking in the back we have more than sufficient uh there was a comment uh in the engineers letter about the removal of six parking spaces here in the middle of the parking lot because it's going it's an existing Stone lot that would be hard to delineate we're in agreement with that comment so when we take the way six we're still at 29 we're still more than sufficient in terms of parking spaces uh for the improvements uh there are a total of um five variances that are required they are predominantly existing non-conforming uh conditions the first is lot area one acre minimum is required the lot area here is 895 again that's an existing non-conforming condition that's going to remain sidey yard setback minimum required is 30 ft the existing building um is 25.9 and 29.2 ft set back from the property line again existing non-conforming conditions that will remain parking lot buffer they require 20ft buffer along the front currently there's 14 ft again that's going to remain sidey yard buffers of 15 ft currently on the southern side is 2.6 feet and 10.1 ft on the Northern side we are improving the southern side by removing Stone in this area adding grass and Landscaping so that'll go to 6.6 ft um and we originally propose a variance here for this front driveway um of 5.94 feet and again I'll come back to that just a second so I'm going to say on the variances and then in the last um 15t required for a rear currently there's [Music] 12.83% the 25 ft landscape buffer technically would apply to both sides of the property um again we do not have that with the parking lot um uh or the driveway and a variance for that condition would be required in discussing this uh as of this morning with Mr Turk we were discussing this area here and I told you I wanted to come back and talk about it of the driveway we are proposing to widen that to 25 ft uh the discussion this morning was we'd like to consider leaving that driveway as its current width of about 20 1/2 ft it's going to be gate restricted uh the only access through here will be uh by employees customers of the public won't drive back in there um that width is is ample for that uh use it's an existing non-conforming width because the minimum width is 25 ft we'd be looking at 20 1/2 ft if we uh ask for a waiver and a board were to consider a wer for that that would allow us to maintain the fence maintain the existing uh curb line further reduce impervious coverage and give us some room in here that we could add some additional Shrubbery uh skip Laural and so forth to add some additional buffering in this area and that would be if the board would consider a waiver uh for the driveway width where 25 ft is required we're looking to maintain the existing 202 fet um so in with that um they are the very iences and the the added waiver that we'd like to ask the board's consideration of this evening thank you thank you should you want to do your letter yeah absolutely um Mr chairman I have a letter dated February 23rd we did speak about most of the items um if you do have the letter on page two we we speak about the fact that this is a conditional use and all the items that Mr Sony were talking talking about the limitations and the restrictions they've agreed to all of those in conformance with the ordinance is that correct yes no taxing no Towing all the things that we're kind of trying to avoid on this lot where did you find the letter I hate to be on oh I'm sorry back this looks like this okay it's St together by itself okay I'm sorry okay that's okay so two is really uh page two is really speaking about the fact this is a conditional use to limitations in we are in a Redevelopment Zone by the way the Lenola Road 38 Redevelopment Zone um Ellen had spoken about all the items ABCDEF uh so we've gone through those the restrictions and we've heard testimony uh the 72 hours I wanted to focus on that 72 hours and storage of cars want to make sure that doesn't happen moving on to what um uh tial had just gone through item two was the variance again the lot size it is what it is lot item three is the sidey yard setbacks 30 ft their existing conditions as we mentioned 29.2 and 25.9 again I don't see any issues with they're relatively minor to begin with and they're pre-existing item four was the requirement for 20 foot front yard setback and it also goes to buffering um currently that last stall is kind of stone and grass and it's kind of a makeshift yeah the stone kind of extends out to the to the curb and we looking to pull that back make that Landscaping yeah I I was I was looking at this one and I would recommend to the board that we consider maintaining a 20 foot buffer in the front it would only have three parking stalls then but it would be a way to control and provide some kind of a normal appearance to the this and not are three spots going to be adequate well it would be two in a handicap there's two in a handicap will that be enough yes because there's not going to be any employees uh parking there they'll all be in the back and they all be in the back and it's pretty much just a drop off where the customer's going to drive in and then the car is going to be taken around back and your employees from your other site are going to use this also right to park I assume that would make sense from the next door from next next door yes yeah that's perfect you open more space over there right okay that's the whole reason is the extra space great okay uh so again that would be my recommendation it's 14 it's it's required to be 20 so that's for the board's consideration I think the board would agree with that since we understand it won't cause a PR as they're not got people parking on the street because there not parking that's what the I think we're okay with that so the applicant won't need a variance for that they would comply with that okay uh five is uh really regarding the buffering the minimum buffering required so we have the rear yard 15 ft is required they have [Music] 12.83% um that was a joke goad I didn't the residence by looking at the picture yeah the uh but the one that young still owns does it's a residential house clearly there's toys in the yard exactly right um so on that is why this morning we spoke about do we really need a 20 foot 25 foot wide driver to go in the back if it's just employees because the buffer that's going to be there is 5 feet maybe six feet so we're thinking some larger shrubs and it's sloped it probably drops about 3et so moving that over they have to build a wall and this is for the private house I mean priv biggest buffer we can give them is what so that's that's why we decided but then that created another situation where the driveway is not wide enough so it's another relief that they would have to get for if they can get by with the narrower driveway right I'd rather see that less impervious cover and so forth so um that would be the northern sidey yard and on the Northern side yard it's it's 5.94 so we have about 6 feet to put some trees in and they can do quite a bit on that um the next one is the southern side yard that is the sidey yard that abuts the tow yard uh the back is visible from dollar is it Dollar Tree or dollar the dollar store that's get ready to open because I was out there and you can see into this lot um on that southern property line there is a 15t wide easement that goes up and down it one tax map says water the other one says sewer so I I'm not sure what's in there but the thought is you had mentioned pulling it back 6 feet the requirement is 15 ft I would ask that they pull it back 15 feet and then provide us with some buffering reduce the impervious because they took the or removed or volunteered the six spaces that were really uncontrollable in the middle I don't think it impacts them more than maybe one parking stall to tell you about the spaces in the middle my concern There Was You Can't stripe Stone and it would become a expanding parking area which is something we're looking for more controlled and defined especially if the code enforcement officer has to go out there so they've agreed to that so the spaces in the middle will go away but we're talking about the buffer now so I'm asking about the buffer on the southern side yard to be 15 ft to again eliminate the bearings just for just for clarity in this section in here that's correct and that's going to reduce one parking space it would probably reduce one parking stall because it's it has to move over 10 more feet yeah one parking St but they're over to begin with parking yes I think they have sufficient parking absolutely eight was required okay thank you um don't mean to beat a dead horse everything uh the buffer strips obviously uh we did hear about the 25 ft when you're adjacent to residential you need a wider buffer than 15 ft it's 25 ft but I'm not sure there's a lot you can do here without it's it's not that wide of a lot and you would narrow the lot down so I think with the efforts of the fence that's going up with the slats the amount of screening we can get in uh I think we're as close as we maybe could get unless you the board feels otherwise uh the fence with the slot is in our requirements correct I'm sorry the fence with the slat is all that's all in here yes I didn't see that um on the side of the garage between the 23 and 29 there is a paved area it's not shown to be used currently there are Vehicles stored in there snowmobiles jet skis I don't know what there was in there but I'm ask that that be removed reduce the impervious put grass there or lawn there uh I know commercial people don't like cutting grass but uh I think that is something we should do to prevent The Accidental storage of vehicles there is that a nice way to put it yes okay uh so I would ask that area become a lawn uh would you be agreeable to that yes sir okay thank you number of employees in the hours hours of operation did we speak about that I may have missed it 8 to five I'm sorry okay uh concrete curving out front teal yeah we'll agree agree with that okay thank you sir excuse me is it Monday through Friday or Monday through Saturday um I own the shop right now was 8 to 5 Monday to Friday and 8 to 12 on Saturday 8 to 12 so you think you're want Saturday hours Satur you should say that now save yourself a lot of aggravation and no Sunday hours right no okay um storm sewer system we had a very good explanation of the storm sewer system currently that rear yard drains into the house next door towards rotary way they did some kind of a makeshift something and I'll just leave it at that which uh they're correcting now and there were problems on the residential lot next door where it was right before the pond or the Basin there was some ponding going on there so this actually corrects two issues mosquitoes all those those items and that hokey I think it was the word I it hokey system is out there now so what they're proposing with as long as they can attain the easements uh is a very good solution to a problem in town an an existing problem in town uh item 11 was the same as seven ke pointed that out to me I I must have felt very strongly about that one the Privacy slats we talked about that was the chain link fence that's off site but we're asking for that 15t wide buffer uh having stood on that other lot that would be more than sufficient you wouldn't see anything back there uh the shade tree we talked about removing the shade tree and utility easement the lights uh I just need some details that's yeah on the last I think the last page of the set I looked them up on on online so I know what they were they were down lighting yeah we are we are proposing uh full cut off down lights LEDs and and full cut off wall out l so with that it wasn't until I went out to the site doing an inspection early in the morning that the lights are on the back currently the backyard the stone yard really doesn't show lighting what they have are two of these lights that are supposed to be like this that angle up and they other flood lights and they shine directly out so when I was standing on the dollar store site looking at that for a TCO um those lights could be angled down and they should be angled down I think we should make every effort as a board to look for down lighting pure down lighting uh so they look like they are something that's actually on a hinge and most people have them and they they start doing this and over time they go like that so I think that's something that we should get those lights set back to the vertical or the horizontal uh right now they're at the vertical position so we would be agreeable to that yes sir thank you um last item on this page uh was the flight flood lights uh 16 the trash enclosure obviously we spoke about that it's in the utility eement we can't have that in the utility eement so you'll relocate that correct um concrete curb we spoke about the retaining wall goes away because we're going to look at giving the waiver for the narrow driveway way and get some more buffering in there uh utilities I just would ask that they be shown you do have water and you do have sewer Public Water and Sewer out here to yeah we we we tried to locate them but we'll we'll add them where we can try to find that I just wanted to make sure sometimes in town we find parking lots that are where the disposal fields are for septics I just want to make sure you don't have a septic tank out here um and that is an ordinance requirement it would be a waiver if you didn't show it but you're going to show it um current residential property should be addressed and again no more residential use of this property that was a testimony um concern was that it turns out like 23 and we don't want that 21 getting close to the end here folks is uh the six bases in the center and te already said they would remove those and 22 was the largest thing which was confirming the storage of vehicles on site and all the issues we spoke about obviously if they don't comply they you have to go to the zoning board with all the statutes because this is a conditional use and 23 was just a minor detail someone put a planner well when there was probably a little tree there and it's treees long gone and the planter wells in our right of way so I just want to make sure that gets removed and that's all I have unless you would have questions I have one more request uh to Jeff if you can explain to the board members about the existing utility is me on the track and what improvements you are doing at the util is men area eth area reach out the eement area and what you are proposing in that there's a 15t wide we have it labeled as a water stormw easement you're talking about easement that goes down along this property line currently in that easement there's concrete block uh Bin Block in the back Stone parking lot uh Landscaping fencing and so forth we're proposing to maintain the stone in that area the trash enclosure was originally proposed to be in that area but that will be relocated so that's not within the easement so the only thing that would be in the easement area would be the existing Stone uh some grass area some shrub plantings uh and existing fence and so forth along the front and that is the area that I'm asking the 15t buffer be provided take the stone out those big concrete blocks out and put some shrubs in and sh shrubs would be okay in a water e move I would plant large trees obviously but shrubs would be fine the roots sh small Roots have anything else no questions from the board before I open after the public this item number six so some some variance form of some form of variance is required for that 25 foot poer strip uh adjacent to a residential use is it uh for the purposes of the resolution a variance to permit a 15ot planted buffer strip whereas 25 ft is is required for the southern side and on the Northern side which is the young property that's going to remain a single family home uh that would be the smallest would be 5.94 feet and then it goes to approximately 10 feet and that's where you're putting effect if we eliminate this widening and the board grants the waiver it'll be approximately 10.1 plus or minus feet from the existing curve line that it'll be I'm sorry six six to 10 six to 10 feet okay so permit that six to 10 six a minimum of six feet and and a maximum of 10 feet varying up to 10 ft right residential buffer strip whereas 25 ft is required correct thank you and the wave and there's a waiver required for the driveway with do we know what that is uh driver width is required to be 25 25 to 20 and A2 I think and we're down to 20 and A2 yes thank you I didn't cite that in the letter because it came to me when I woke up and I thought in a dream it's it's came to me a dream as he was walking that's right that's right I have a question if I may um with regard to um the 72h hour storage I know sometimes you can't get parts well would happen if you had to wait a week for a part to come in and you still have a vehicle there longer than yeah the 72 hours was no no be no vehicle just sitting there for 72 hours waiting to come into the garage or waiting to get picked up there'll be no storage over 72 hours if the vehicle's there comes in on a Monday it goes in the shop and then the park comes in on Thursday and then it leaves on Friday that's what the 72 hours is nothing outside sit for 72 hours without nothing being done to it okay I well I think we understand what's proposed but what if there some sort of delay well that that's what I meant there's no 72 hours like the car is not going to sit for 72 hours without without being serviced without being serviced it's going to be in service now if it goes in service and they says oh the caliper uh going to be in on Thursday and it's Tuesday obviously it's going to be but it's going to be in the shop and it's not the whole thing of the 72 hours is not to make it a storage yard okay so there will be no like I said it's no storage it's just vehicles are being there so there would be minor exceptions for I just didn't want them to get in trouble if they didn't have a park correct that they needed it and it's over 72 hours thank you are you I just have real quick um key drop box I assume there is going to be U people dropping Vehicles off at night you know to get done work they have to drop it off have their significant other picking up is that uh something you guys will do as well yeah we have a key drop box at 23 we probably one at 2 at 29 as well okay and so they're again you know some overnight parking as possible uh in the front lot correct yeah that's would be that the two parking spots up front great any other questions on the board seeing none I'm going to open it up to the public do anybody I have last I'm sorry I have last question I asked you and you said no but for the record point of view I'm asking on page three after the item six is that page the 72 hour storage of vehicle is for the passenger vehicle or the towing vehicle no to okay no TOS good question just for the record point of view I'm asking I know but report itself says presenting the testimony during the presenting the testimony also they elaborated about something so last time do you have anything else no no more not anything else up yourself at this time I'm going to open it up to the public does anybody in the public have any input into this application as we're hearing it seeing none I'll entertain a motion to close the public portion second all those in favor I any further questions from the board I do have more more it just the Steve wants to know question um and I didn't even put two and two together again because there were so many cars in the existing property that you own now there's a house there yes sir is that used as a residential yes no no yes it's it's a it's not a tenant it's one of our employees the house is a single sing single man he's pretty much night guy makes sure there's nobody you know almost like a nighttime security some customer comes in and they can't have a problem uh picking up their vehicle or have a problem dropping the vehicle off who sometimes takes the keys from them in the beginning you st that it is office no no no that's 29 you're asking about 23 somebody lives in that house 23 in 23 23 yes that's what my heard you say that I've been that I don't know how it gets front door but that's another story he's not a tenant so like I said he's just live there so there's there's also a house on 29 that's going to be strictly an accessory office that and to kind of side with Mr Dugan I drove past the place not today about a week and a half ago um it is really in need of I I will have a sh I will have a sh apology so just what happened to me today I didn't have the plans with me or anything like that it was my impression that you were putting this business in that building right and I said there is just no way this can happen there's yeah unless you're going to do point was well taken I I will say that we did see uh Omar and Steve Flanigan came to site plan yeah and they have made improvements since we spoke to them we had very similar conversations about the property and they are moving towards making effort you know I'll agree to that absolutely just so we yeah I just want to make sure that that's on the record that dumpster sitting in the street just unbelievable that's you know we can't have that it worked right I'm sure the trash people don't mind but it was a trash business next door before Landscaping that was South Jersey sanitation anyway we we know where we're where we're going with this and again I didn't mean to offend anybody but I had to okay any other questions I want a motion Mr chairman I'll just CL I just Sor go ahead it's just for the application is for the if there going to be a motion please conditional use approval uh with the preliminary and final site plan approval along with the variances that were uh identified uh on the record by the applicant these included uh the several variances for pre-existing non-conforming conditions at the property the minimum lot size as well as the side yard setback and uh side yard parking setback rear yard parking setback and make sure I'm not uh identifying any variances that have been the plans will be revised to eliminate because there were U two of those as noted by our our engineer the applicant also requires uh a variance to permit a a 5.94 feet to is it 10 feet 10t 10 10 foot uh residential buffer strip whereas uh 25 ft is the minimum required in uh the locations that were again testified to and indicated by our Port engineer and agreed to by the applicant the applicant also requires a waiver for the revised driver way WID which will be 202 ft proposed whereas a minimum of 25 ft is required the Steve if I interrupt you that would be a pre-existing condition that's at this point the driveway the driveway so the board should understand that that is all as with several the variances that's a pre-existing condition uh the conditions of approval should the board approve the application first would be strict compliance with the Township Code restriction or definition on the types of vehicles that are permitted to be serviced at the property any deviation from what's permitted by our code would would render the applicants conditional use non-compliant they would need to go to the zoning board for a use variance the second condition would be submission of the uh testified required easements for the board professional review and approval prior to those easements being being recorded and certainly prior to the applicant uh being permitted to undertake any sight improvements uh third condition would be that in generally in general the site plan uh Landscaping buffering carving uh those items and and similar improvements will be revised on updated plan uh revised and submitted updated compliance plans consistent with the recommendations of the board engineer and the board test that were testified to this evening as well as compliance with the comments and recommendations of the board engineer any outstanding or open items in the board of Engineers February 23rd 2024 review letter and again as stated are modified on the record uh tonight finally the the house that exists on 29 Willow the subject property would be limited to an accessory office non-residential use residential use on the same lot as the proposed Tow and commercial use would most likely again trigger uh the need for a use variant so that would be limited to to an accessory office use associated with the commercial service use that's proposed Steve let me just interrupt real quick that doesn't matter whether that's an employee or a 10 right just not residential because like you said that one billing you don't rent it out but an employee lives it's still residential that's correct yeah residential wouldn't be uh wouldn't turn on let's say the who's living there or how they're living there would just be associated with the business or nonr thank you and Mr chairman I believe that's it any Outside Agency approvals the applicant would need to obtain of course they would need to comply with um our our any any other applicable Township ordinance requirements including potentially a posting of any affordable housing obligation should any be created by the application other than that we could entertain a motion on the floor to approve the application to Grant those to Grant the conditional use approval site plan approval variances subject to the conditions stated any other conditions or comments from the board I don't have any comments I would make that motion a second we have a roll call please Emily Rish yes Maran Constantine yes Justin Panet yes CLA WP yes suan D yes Steve Smith approved Daniel McDon yes Joseph Dugan yes looks like you got your approval thank you thank you excellent work from all the professionals absolutely on that that was everybody yeah take care thank you feel really good about that that place cleaned up have a good day I know sometimes have two Engineers out not take na there's more of them yeah that's close oh wait some people left we're not we're not outnumbered anymore it's yours the next item on the agenda 105 West Main Street block 64 Lot 1 Baron urban renewal Association LP application number PB 241 the zone is downtown business the existing use is vacant land the proposed use is a previously approv previously approved age restricted housing and Retail the application the application amendment is previously approved site plan applicant is seeking relief to eliminate parking spaces for previously from from previously approved plan and reconfigure site plan to accommodate requirements of emergency vehicles ingressed and egressed from the property thank you Mr chairman uh Richard Roy I am here on behalf of the applicant um I have with me a number of witnesses if it makes sense to get them sworn all together right first um uh Joe pelli from RPM Anthony dooster from inas architecture and engineering Jack glaz from and glaz secretary engineering and Nathan Bosley is here somewhere he is he's waving got him yeah really I was getting nervous um if it makes sense to get this stand please raise your right hands do you swear or affirm testimony you give tonight will be the truth the truth nothing about the truth I do yes and please just State your names and addresses for now Joseph portelli RPM Development Group 77 Park Street in M Clair anthy D Augusta Eng glaz architecture and engineering 632 pton Avenue Cedar Grove New Jersey Jack and glaze uh 632 uh pton Avenue C New Jersey as well Nathan Mosley sh Associates 277 White Pike after thank you okay good you're probably all familiar with this project um AR we ever I'll just give you a little brief background in case um the uh this project started in approximately 2012 uh we came to the township there were certain Township requests to change some items uh we made those changes uh we got the approval but unfortunately by the time we got the approval the funding uh for the project had dried up so we got back in line to get the uh funding necessary to move forward uh that uh finally happened a decade later and although in the meantime we did significant work environmental clean I'll demolish the building you're you live here you're familiar with it um the once the funding became available we continued to move forward with what was necessary we received uh we believe we met all the conditions of the prior approvals um we received a Fire official letter in October of 22 uh raising some items we responded to that in December of 22 um we our professionals had a similar project and DCA had told us what was necessary in connection so we provided that um we eventually were asked to get a Project Specific opinion uh we were told not a problem you comply with the requirements of DCA for fire safety uh when it came time however to actually get the written opinion it got bumped over to the fire safety portion of DCA who said no we're not sure you do uh you have over 150 feet of driveway access you need a turnaround for a fire apparatus uh since that time um and sus can tell you because she's been living with it uh we have been trying to work out some solution that meets the fire code and will work with this project um we believe that at this point based on Chief Kilmer's email that hopefully you've all SE seen that we have done that um he he says and I'm not going to read you his email but he says based on documents provided a turnaround area has been provided and a qualified engineer has certified that the area is sufficiently sized to allow for the Turning of the fire department's largest piece of apparatus their ladder truck the applic also stated they' be installing a fire hydrant within the complex at the end of the driveway along with st pipes for fire department use in the rear of the building this will help alleviate congestion in the rear of the building I believe with the above items they met the intent of fire codee he goes on to say that it is not not an ideal solution that backing up a fire apparatus is not what you know would be the best solution to an issue um that having been said we've met the intent of the fire code uh we have in recently talked to neighbors to our property to try to see if we can come up with another alternative that might be a better solution but uh the catch that we have here and Joe can testify to this is that because we are now a funded project and we've even extended that funding once we have to complete this building by December of 25 or we may be looking at another decade of not being able to construct it because we're back in line with the tax funding and if we qualify if they have five spots and we're sixth we don't do it so we certainly and again your funding in place right now we we have an award of additional tax credits that will allow us to close financing and begin okay so again and I you're going to hear it from Fred uh we understand the balance of Chief Kilmer's uh letter that backing up a fire apparatus is not the perfect solution but we want to walk you through what we're proposing and then assure you that we'll continue to try but we can't if it's a condition to the approval and a few months go by before that gets met we may not make the end of December 25 construction so with that you're saying construction has to be done by the end end of 25 completed people moving in not people moving in but receive a temporary Co okay yes thank you I'm sorry all right and you know we're backing into that date based on a construction period of 18 months so TCO is December of 25 yes and so that's why a actually starting mobilizing and starting construction on or about June 1st is a date that we are targeting how how far you are with environment environmental issues you need to remove the soil replace and those tastings and everything are completed how can you complete within 18 months by December 25 the constructions even to suppos tomorrow the environmental related work the environmental related work happens simultaneously with the rest of construction um our project manager has spent a fair amount of time working together with our licensed Cy mediation professional to coordinate those efforts it's some combination of excavation some combo of uh groundwater injection there's a installation of an active uh favor intrusion mitigation system and that all happens over the course of that 18mon period so as of today we we've sampled everything that we need this will meet residential standards so correct yeah Lial standard to allow for residential occupancy yes and in addition to spending ton there's been like millions of dollars spent correct we have spent quite a bit of money um and we've taken it as far as we can at this point with all the sampling and delineating and now we're at the point where we need to actually begin further remediation activities that depends on doing construction all right Jo you've heard my kind of summary of how we got from approximately 2012 to hear accurate yes i' say so anything we need to add um I would just like to reiterate that we since we last saw you in May of last year we have been working diligently to try to achieve a solution here so um we have been working on it it's taking some time but um we feel confident about what we're going to present to you like like Richard said it's and she said it's not optimal but we worked really hard to try to arrive at a solution that achieves the best balance of all these considerations and there was a fairly significant period where DCA LED not Chief kber but DCA LED you to believe that no we we had received um a couple of two interpretations regarding the application of rsis for when there appeared to be two conflicting code standards and other interpretation regarding mixed projects and then when we sought the um Project Specific interpretation in the U it was a short time after our May 2023 meeting that's how we ended up where we where we are today and coincidentally it ended up back in front of CH Kilmer later that summer so we've been looking since then to to arrive at the this all right um Anthony just for I don't to say the easy ones but the easy ones we got a review letter from we did Fred Fe February 23rd correct we did and obviously you're going to walk the board through the plans and what we're proposed changing with the parking to to put in our fire uh proposal but just to knock the other ones out of the way uh the request that Fred made about the surface treatment for the landscape Island uh you'll coordinate that with his office and absolutely no issue there um the EV Make Ready parking spaces is uh comply with statute and code uh there was one fixture that Fred want to changed LED that's okay absolutely any revisions you're going to show with the revision dates and I will try yes we will um and I guess this is a Joe one Joe you're G to uh arrange to get the chainlink fence along Main Street increase to a 5 foot set back correct yeah I hope that we might see somebody out there tomorrow afternoon be great and that that's actually a selfish comment I walk there and that's defense kind of jles out into the sidewalks okay all right Anthony with that could you just walk the board through uh what proposed changes there are to what was previously approved sure on the plan sure yes I think the microphone's up there just so the board's aware even with the changes to the parking and a reduction we still meet the Redevelopment plan requirement for the property there's no variants being requested it's simply that since there is a reduction we need to back to you to show you that okay it was originally 49 spaces and now it's 43 or possibly fewer if we show you the alternate fire plan if that were able to be worked out it could be reduced a few more but we would still be in compliance with your Redevelopment plan so since most of you are familiar with the project I'm not going to the labor and the architecture of the building but we'll talk about specifically what we've done to sort of improve the situation at the rear of the property so is everyone generally familiar with the location where it is all right keep this brief and what we'll jump to is sheet c170 which articulates inite um so Li is on the right of the page ter at the left B is on the bottom the intention is for truck entry to still as it o was enter off uh lipid cop make its way in and then navigate towards the sort of left side of the property as deep as it can go that was never the problem that kind of approach was never the issue it was backing up out of the site that became the issue um so what we did to resolve that as best we could was eliminate a series of parking stalls generally in this area here as well as two more in this area to create a No Parking Zone to allow that apparatus to kind of spin around in the sort of we call it the nuffle of the site the center of the site um in working with uh the professionals and the state um we had a series of iterations regarding this um this is the most recent version that doesn't require as many Maneuvers for that truck to kind of turn around at the center of the site it's a relatively simpler way of entering and exiting truck comes in it lands here it requires the back up into this landscape area that area will work with the engineering department to design properly but in general at no point does the truck interfere with any parking stalls or the building itself obviously it does utilize some depressed curving for that apparatus to kind of Mount itself and then re-engage with the parking lot and then exit back out so briefly back in pull out uh additionally some measures were taken to improve the general protection of the building and the protection of the firan we've added a hydrant to this General corner of the the property we've also installed or planning to install uh three uh wall hydrants as they're called um again to assist uh fighting a fire should there be one um these devices are U utilizing uh the fire protection system that's already uh intended to be installed in the building we are increasing that uh type of fire protection from a 13r which is typically strictly reserved for residential to a thir NFPA 13 system that'll sort of built in suspenders a little bit protect the building a little bit more okayy can we try that in layman's terms sure the sprinkler system is being upgraded from what would be required to something more substantial that's correct so are additional areas inside being covered necessarily be required would be Yeah so basically things like closets and go into a little more detail so sure so the 13 system uh protects a bit more area than it would sort of on The Lax 13r this is uh covering areas that are compos or or contained spaces that would otherwise be unprotected as your engineer pointed out a closet for instance would be protected versus uh in a 13r system that space would not be protected so again all all measures Tak to further protect the building from a fire so nobody can promise anything 100% but the steps that we've taken with the system with the stand pipes or the ball hydrants the additional fire hydrant those are all intended to hopefully minimize the chance of there being they are serious fire out here correct go ahead I'm sorry so we have an upgraded sprinkling system number one and we've got the fire hydron and three wall and okay and those are all over and above what we normally be proposed yes that's that's absolutely corre those are chief Kilmer suggestion the professional suggestion excuse me what is the three what are the three wall what how do they work the three wall you've probably seen something similar on on a newer building where they sort of have a connection on the outside so that the farm connect their hose okay and then they would instead of attaching it to a hydrant further away or the a pumper they would connect it there and then they could bring the hose in the building you're familiar yes okay in addition to which we added High okay all right it's kind of rare belt suspenders and suspenders okay um how many parking spaces Anthony did we lose as a result of this maneuver we lost seven six thought it was 49 43 but I could be wrong seven yeah seven so there were there were five along here then two right there I'm not making light of a parking situation but I went over to the other home that we have in Maple right around the corner today and I went there about 11:30 and again at 230 there were lots of empty parking spots so it's I don't know you know if that's a good sign or uh chicken and an egg it's a it's a different yeah Nathan Mosley from shopshire we had when this came up Mr Turk brought this up and we wanted to be able to address any concerns so he's actually done a parking study okay and we'll try to keep it brief but we want you to hear him there are times there are times that that that parking lot is full is okay okay absolutely yeah night time when they're all home night time when yeah when they're all home yes silly when they're sleep I think F excellent anything else no brief is good they usually appreciate that so Nathan you want to step forward just so the board knows there really are just two items on this one is what we're about to hear tonight which is the parking concern if I could go back and reinvent when we originally appr appr this we wouldn't have went half a spot right go there we no no understand so we're going to and that's why Nathan's here tonight to go through that with us the concern when you lose 14% of the parking is there's not a lot of parking out there well I think and the impact on a neighbor not to go back all but we realized they were utilizing the parking lot across the street so but that's all settled that we done with and Mr chairman I did realize there's one thing that I forgot to do and I won't forget with Nathan um I didn't qualify Anthony um Anthony have you testified before this board before I have yes and you were qualified as as professional architect I was yes thank you so just to finish that up there's two items one is the parking the second is the letter that I want to go through got got mine's highlighted too that that's I just wanted to get through that Nathan have you testified for this board previously I have it's been probably a couple years since the last time I was here but you've been qualified as a professional engineer traffic your specialty correct yes currently licensed State it's fine uh Nathan you were engaged to take a look at the parking the adequacy of the parking uh what effect if any the reduction in the number of spaces would have yes we were engaged to look at two things related to parking one was the on street parking Supply relative to the commercial development within the building and the potential for the need for on street parking whether there was enough parking available for those commercial uses and then also to look specifically at the off street parking for the residents themselves which is what we have here before you on the on the board on the exhibit so we did both of those things and we submitted a report that was dated February 16 2024 uh we went out and did surveys of the existing area we basically took about a three block radius or about say about two block radius around the property we went up and down Main Street on both sides of the road and we went up and down the side streets you know for about 10050 ft in both the North and the South directions off of Main Street and we surveyed uh not only what Thea parking Supply was but also what the Peak parking demand for that area is and we did those surveys on a Friday in the afternoon and the evening and also on a Saturday in the afternoon and the evening to try and capture the commercial aspect of the downtown M shade you see there today and the parking associated with it and what we found was that as far as on street parking is concerned you know not only in front of the building itself there's available on street parking but in that area which is very walkable there's ample available parking Supply um just as an example on a Friday when we did our surveys uh the maximum vehicle vehicle count we saw was 85 vehicles in that area and we estimated and calculated that the actual Supply to be about 185 spaces in that area and that does not include the Acy parking parking lot which is off Street there we did not survey or include that that's also available for public parking as well but on a Friday we saw that there was at least 100 spaces available in that area during the peak times and on a Saturday the the parking was actually a little bit lower we only 68 vehicles in that area so again well over 100 spaces available in that immediate area around the site to accommodate the parking needs for the commercial on the first floor so based on you know what I've seen historically in this area and what our surveys show I I believe there's more than enough parking off or on Street to accommodate the needs for the commercial tenants whoever they may be whether they're restaurants or just typical um you know commercial establishments whatever they are there's plenty of parking in this area and then specifically in front of our building I think there's about space is available between the two sides of Main Street right in that block where where our site is located and the Peak parking that we saw on a Friday was 10 vehicles in that area so about half full and on a Saturday was 13 Vehicles so a little over half full so again even right in front of the building there's still available parking you know during the busiest times based on the surveys we did so that was the first thing we looked at the second thing was the off street parking um you heard already that we've reduced the parking to 43 on site Park I'm sorry yeah onite parking on- site parking so we've reduced the parking to 43 spaces to accommodate some different changes to the building itself um and we have a total of 60 residential units so that's a parking Supply ratio make sure I get my name correct of 72 spaces per unit that's how we look at it as Traffic Engineers um but we look at it spaces per unit so we have a total supply of 72 spaces per unit so we want to see what the anticipated demand would be for this use it's a senior affordable housing residential site and we wanted to one look to the Institute of Transportation Engineers or it um they're a they're a nationwide organization they collect parking and traffic count data from other Traffic Engineers throughout the country and they compile all of that data and then publish it so the latest publication from it is the parking generation manual it's the fifth edition they have a land use code that's called senior housing attached which I think is most applicable to this proposed given the um the age restriction of the units themselves um the senior housing attach is a market or affordable unit doesn't really make a difference they don't classify them differently under their parking analysis but what the it numbers show based on studies that have been done and they they theyve published is that on average you see see a parking demand of 61 spaces per unit so again we have a parking supply of 72 they see an average demand of 61 which would equate to 37 vehicles for these 60 units proposed again we have 43 parking spaces so we still have more than enough parking for that um they also uh in addition to looking at the average they have what they call the 85th percentile which is kind of like your worst case scenario it kind of looks at the higher end of the data that's been collected and that ratio was 67 spaces per unit which would equate to 41 vehicles in the parking lot again we have 43 spaces um and that's that's the higher end of things the average is is lower than that then the other thing we did was we looked at an existing site in Westville New Jersey about 20 minutes from here owned by this applicate uh I don't know who owns that one it was recommended by the applicant so that I I won't speak to that it's on by the can I ask a question before you continue on that okay that other I saw you shaking your head yes is that you're saying it's like this one does it have commercial on the first floor uh it does not have commercial uses but it's comptable in terms of the 60 units it's um just just over 60 units but as it's also restrict affordable with the Supportive Housing component okay so residential it's it's equivalent just doesn't have the commercial first floor okay correct I'm sorry thank you that's okay no it's good question so yeah it is actually 64 total units it's multi story same idea the parking behind it um there were actually 62 units occupied so when we did the counts at that facility um we saw a Peak parking demand we count it overnight when everyone's home of 39 vehicles on both the Friday and the Saturday that's 63 vehicles per unit which is nearly identical to the it studies and again if you apply that to the 6 unit development here that would be a total of 38 vehicles for a site so in my opinion based on looking at the latest plans with 43 parking spaces based on looking at the Westville site and the data we collected there as well as the it data I do believe we have enough parking off Street to accommodate the needs for the residential units uh within the parking lot adequately and safely where where do you think the employees of the four undetermined businesses will par they'll have to park on streets and how how will you control that uh my question would be how do you monitor that the residential spaces that are available will just be the residents other than the employees when they sneak in or customers would use that lot so this is where I you Joe when after I testify you say yes that's correct uh we actually have an on site manager okay so there's somebody there full-time who is going to be able to monitor that will there be signage will there signage stickers on cars whatever yeah stickers on cars all all that okay yeah but it's not it's not a free who is a tenant and who is not uh under the rsis what would be required of this type of housing uh I believe it's five spaces per unit or8 I think so I I didn't look at the rsis specifically no I'm looking at the rsis and I'll just bring up one thing uh there's overnight hours everyone's in bed cars are all there uh rsis takes into consideration the visitors and so forth so if people do come to visit this site if there's some kind of an event birthday party it would be offsite parking then quite right everything's going to be offsite parking so there is an impact to our neighborhoods I just want the board to be aware of that so can I ask another question on the parking so if if we're saying that the maple sha location there's a required 30 spaces offsite is what your your report is saying here onsite no onsite onsite under the Redevelopment this would require a total off street parking supply of 30 spaces yeah under the Redevelopment plan the parking requirement is five spaces per unit okay under Redevelopment plan so that would be 30 spaces required we're providing 43 we're providing more than what's required and then I'm saying that based upon the studies that we've done it shows that there's probably going to be a demand of around 35 to 38 spaces needed for the 60 units and we provide enough parking to accommodate that so just so I got this straight so you have 60 units correct so just for those 60 residents where say not all of them will have a vehicle correct so the 43 spaces that are currently in the proposal will be enough because you're you're get estimating that we only need 30 some correct based on the study we did at Westville based upon looking at the it data which is National National information I anticipate there being in Need for around 35 to 38 spaces and we have 43 proposed so we have more more than enough parking in my opinion to accommodate the needs for the 60 units okay and then any visitors there if there's a space available I guess then it's up for grabs if there's a space available I'm not sure how it's going to be managed or control but again there's still plenty of parking on the street as well immediately surrounding the site so even if they even if they weren't permitted to park in the lot if that was only for the residents themselves they could still find a parking space in the immediate vicinity of of the and the immediate facility you're talking on liping cot Main Street yeah we surveyed on Main Street from uh Clifton which is about a block to the West I'm sorry Clinton thank you um all the way down to Fork Landing um and then we went we went off Main Street about you know 100 to 150 ft along c Terrace been Cott and Margaret all right but nothing in the acne parking lot we didn't include the acne parking lot um that that typically has available parking as well and it's immediately across the street we didn't survey it specifically could could you speak a little bit about the proposed bus stop that I've seen on the plans initially I thought this was a New Jersey Transit type bus stop but I learned today that it's something a little different than that if you could just explain that to the board and that what I'm trying to say is the plan show a bus stop proposed on Main Street closer to Monte gillo and the dance studio uh very familiar with the dance studio she's become successful which is a good news bad news is she has 10 to 12 cars parked out there just about every night uh then we have the liquor store and my concern is if they're filled up now people bringing their children to the business or anyone's business that's right there there's going to be an impact so thinking it was a New Jersey Transit bust upop they require a certain distance to pull off and and that would have taken at least half of that block but now I'm being told it's something a little different if you could just address there was confusion all around about that and this actually goes to some of the parking calculations and once again Joe you have to step in we're required as part of our approval for the funding to provide transportation not not regular Transportation but a certain number of times a day I morning once in the morning once at night so that if you have a disabled veteran off one of these and he needs to get to work but doesn't drive he can take but it's it's a passenger van it's not like the Access Link it's not exactly it's not a bus it's not you know a New Jersey Transit it won't need anything more than a typical parking size parking stall size space so we're not going to be using enough you know half of the block for a bus area it's really just more of a designated kind of loading area for someone to for a vehicle to Stage there when someone's getting in out and the Count's reviewed that already and I think that was in their comments okay can I just ask one question you just brought it up with disabled veterans and I apologize but when Kevin Kavanaugh was here in front of the our board in front of our Council actually for a council meeting he represented that the facility that the building was going to be for disabled veterans 60 units primarily disabled veterans that would have overnight and I know that this is not part of this application but I want I hear that all you're saying is senior housing is there a difference because when Kevin was here he represented to counil that the disabled veterans would have overnight AIDs that would stay there with them as well so it might actually increase the number of spaces and that's so I just need that clarification that one we need Joe for because my understanding was a certain number of the units were set aside for disabled veterans not and and then some of it if you remember because you both were here some of that um space some of the retail space was going to be used for social services so that's where some of the concern comes to with parking 15 of the units of the 60 are Supportive Housing units they may or may not have AIDS depends on the services that um they do or do not have um from local agencies Regional agencies or state as well and um the Supportive Services um available to residents are to be delivered uh in the community room area on the um living kav side of the building there's room approximately 16 or 1700 sare ft kind show us where that is yes in this corner here 100 y best one there we go okay yeah sheet a100 the corner of Main this corner here commun that's where we typically provide our Supportive Services to Residents so and you've accounted for those those employees that will be there that they could be there overnight basically or they could that are going to be giving services to the residents I mean if there was a resident who needed an overnight service I would imagine that they would not have their own vehicle so they could you know that space would be allocated for them need thank you thanks Joe thanks Dan any other questions we're happy to address I'm just um I don't want to use the word concerned I'm just inquiring you said we have 100 extra spots on available on Street um and just using the fat lazy guy theory if I'm going to this retail spot I'm not parking at for cling it's too far away it's too lazy and my my concern is across there I parking concerns me really um yeah because yeah you have four businesses that they each have two employees anybody there's eight more spots I said in the beginning and Mr Dugan if I could go back uh our Redevelopment plan said 05 for the residential and zero required parking for the commercial wow zero so that's not a okay and right now it's full out front every night yep with the dance studio and there's no yeah there's no building there yet there's nothing and they not doing day Johnny has all his cars John Johnny himself Parks over there he's got a good business going on so that's where our concerns or my concerns come into is you know said if that's you know Billy Bob's Barbecue or whatever it happens to be it's just not going to happen Nathan does the AC parking lot kind of ser I hate the use the word emergency it scares people but kind emercy overflow yeah it's it's available for overflow as well even if it were to be needed uh again you know I understand the comment um you know whether or not someone's going to park on Fork Landing way down that far I don't know but we did survey you know Main Street from Fork Landing all the way down to Clinton and then um we're on Fork Landing or are you saying talking for landing from the light all the way down to right so that whole the whole stretch of Main Street is where he's coming up with his number and and I get it but like said I mean yeah nice May evening maybe I'd walk that far but come December my end I should use that barbecue example I'd walk for that it's really not that far of a walk Steve if you if you walk I promise you it's not it's the only excess parking we have in the area is our parking lot not the acne the parking lot behind and that there's always parking there but will people utilize it I don't know right and that's kind of the thought block away to block away from them and really they can't see not really when you stop to think of it half a block half a block yeah half a block that's just my concern when I hear 43 space 60 units you and I get all your the math and the no I understand I think you know based upon the the demographic for the residents I think that you know we do have more than enough parking if this was a standard you know market rate unit then then the parking may need to be reevaluated but given the type of unit it's going to be for I my professional opinion is will be enough I was teasing Mr dug and I said I'm going to get all your blood pressures up and tell you we just bought a bigger fire we did you think chairman here at UC I thought I ain't got no hair for God's sake they torture me how about the deliveries for the commerci the deliveries are anticipated to be in the uh front along Main Street in the area that's going to be allocated for the the pickups of residents as well to use that as a common area for both deliveries and um the residents when when the spaces occupied by any vehicle on the street then the delivery truck will go and turn come back in a different time or you will allow them at the rear parking or what is your plan you did not assign any any space for the deliveries on the drawing or on the street or your intention is not clear at this point for the sa the parking issues prip you're talking deliveries for the residents or commercial commercial commercial I'm sorry I thought you said commissary and there is another additional there is an additional suppor a service suppor a service will increase the density of the vehicles to the side and in and out from to the such study such information is nothing no in the report nothing on the drawing so how can we proceed for that is area Lo loated combine it with the area for res but you are proposing to on the stre very arrang for downtown commcial have small commerciales the anticipation you're going to have a small vehicle for any of does it comply with our development plan what what our plan requires as far as loading unloading I think it's been on there since the beginning yeah I I can swear to that but I believe so yes that was in the original that was in the original plan what is the size of the store size of the store indicates the size of the delivery the total area for square foot for the toal area each unit each commercial unit 2800 so definitely it is the larger size, ft small business small deliveries if it is a 2,800 ft definitely one restaurant can be accommodated and any big delivery trucks standing on the street loading unloading up to that time all the backups on the main streets will there be signage out front I know that currently under our I guess title 39 we have 2 hour parking correct are you aware could you just explain how that will work and is the loading in this bus area going to be signed did the county approve that I'm not aware of what the county approved um for signage but you know we can definitely work with the town with your office with the county if need to provide some kind of signage to you know indicate where that loading zone is and then indicate where the public parking fail is located but currently the whole Frontage I believe and I don't know if it's under statute I didn't check that is 2hour parking it's signed that's what it looks like that all for the frontage of that block yeah that's what it looks like in c170 yes I mean there's a small Gap that's not delineated I'm sure it is so now I guess really the Crux of why they're here is the fire chief from the DCA Kilner um he raised the issue as Mr royy went through they went back and forth back and forth and then we I think it was today right we received this letter correct so that really is the most sensitive part of this and I would for the reason of this is a site health safety issue like to read item two of my letter and then I would like to go through the fire officials letter please uh some of his words are pretty pretty strong so so again item number two of uh February 23rd 2024 letter she says regarding the on-site turnaround movement for emergency vehicles the applicant has provided a traffic and circul culation plan and we did look at that uh there reference c170 uh demonstrates circulation of the aerial platform fire truck based on our review and on-site turnaround is possible so I'm agreeing with the fire code almost where he says I believe with the above items they have met the intent of the code I then also say that but the fire Tru appears to have critical clearances so what that means when you look at the if I may get a uh if you look at this vehicle back here based on turning Wheels generated by computer and coming along back parkedge of and then you get along here and you're clipping the edge of that and on here you're going up onto an island and potentially interfering with that so these parking stalls are 9 by 18 so assuming no one has a pickup truck and is not parked up far or is backed up is how is the only way that this works this is a critical plan on a computer showing the ultimate scenario of the truck driver knowing and I'm sorry to do this knowing exactly when to turn that wheel at what angle to make this so I want to I want to prove that point when we get to the fire chief's letter and all his wording so this does prove engineering wise it physic as possible to turn around on site and I would agree with that um there's other issues so let me go on for this reason and as previously discussed with the site plan Advisory Board and they did come to the site plan Advisory Board we went through all these issues and because of these critical clearances and the need to back up we heard about deaths of firefighters we had asked the question that site plan correct me if I'm wrong and we said have you approached the neighbors for the easement because it certainly looks like a straight straight run through uh where or some other geometry and I think the answer was that it was years ago when they first had come in so it didn't sit well and I said well wait a minute let's I'm used to someone approaches me I go away did you make a good faith effort did you make a good faith offer uh maybe there's money they're looking for or maybe there's some condition they would like I think it's prudent that we asked to see that so we know there's a reason why and then we'll get to all these words that you're not going to like uh that you can't drive straight through uh today we were we spoke on the phone briefly about u t not tanelli sorry Monte gillo for Place Monte gillo there there are some limitations they have a shed and a dumpster but there's about 18 ft between them um I know you've been trying to speak with them of and on the guys on vacation still on vacation so there's back and forth going on as of last week but if that could go if that could possibly happen you could put a gate here and there would be 18 ft and go right over to Terrace and resolves all these issues everyone in this room would be concerned especially the professionals um and the fire guys and and everyone here that something happens it's a four-story building I I I think that suppression system is fantastic I think that goes a long way and and I thank you for that um but I just want to point out that there could be options available yes they spoke to them and it's been a long arduous process I know that I know you've been through a lot um but we should take that effort now the dance studio lady just purchased that property I think she probably would not have an issue with it if she's approached properly and and the township could even assist and talk to these people but that resolves any concerns uh of backing out and it's an angle you have to go up and around the building so I'll continue reading with that okay I have yes sir to to address that I was following that also they're talking about these nine spots that they want them to buy and then you can go straight through I assume that's parking for the businesses on the corner so you're going to put them cars out on the street the scenario that I'm speaking to would displace zero cars oh okay the one that they were referencing is going through this back parking lot which is also owned by the gentleman owns the mon so what I'm talking about is this here it's not shown on this plan and Survey but there's like a trash D here okay I I was just I worried about doing away with nine parking spots cuz gu got to go somewhere no I think they were even speaking about doing like a U-turn coming I don't know if that's feasible but um and and the reality is safety is and I think this should be as we spoke about at site plan is getting let's see the good faith efforts going forward I know they have deadlines but fire Lan basically is really what it would be for them right yes yes correct it would be gated off so nobody's going to be driving through it every day g off put concrete grass creete pavers something you wouldn't even know fire trucks need it that that's it and they're going to go through it if it's no lock stopping going through it right so the owner of the it's only one piece of property it would be two it's the dance studio lady who just moved in there a couple of months ago and Mont Gill no no residents that are on been caught and no residents that are on Terrace it's just those two businesses yes those businesses do have apartment on yeah I I don't know two or three Apartments oh Monte does I know that but I don't know about the yeah she does it but mon BR has three upstairs right okay the only the only practical downside to that is that that fir truck would then be leaving through a relatively small commercial driveway across the sidewalk and onto the onto that side street as opposed to coming out of our driveway which is bigger a little bit more recognized as a yes I'm going to disagree with that I think a straight path that would be 15t wide certainly an easier path it's not a residential it's a commercial establishment there and your identity of them backing out through your site and trying to make that maneuver is extremely difficult and is great for computer to make and when Vehicles drive by AI then it would work well but so we did have another possibility that we can run by let me just finish going through this and then we'll go go through here just if you don't mind no it's fine um so again at the site plan advisory meeting in our professional meetings we spoke about the state with the State Fire official the local Fire official and an emergency access should be sought from the neighboring properties a copy of the good faith efforts between the parties to obtain emergency access easements on Lots 6 and 6.0 one or lot 7 seven is the the existing parking lot uh should be provided the acquisition of the emergency access should address the EG egress concerns of the Fire official so that leads us to this letter of today from the Fire official and we met with the Fire official our new Fire official but I believe the state uh M St the state really is controlling what goes on in the site right now because they started right so we did receive a a letter today an email um I didn't get any of the attachments but I did receive the letter in the first paragraph and I don't know if everyone has this talks about the dead end apparatus and 150 ft length so they need a place to turn around and then on the second paragraph his first sentence says I believe with the above items they have met the intent of the fire code so okay they've met the intent he believes I've talked about the critical path if anyone's hanging over it's a difficult then the paragraph goes on and that's all the highlights that you'll see and I'm going to just and I'm just going to run through first and just read the words I want to be perfectly clear though that this is far this this that this by far is not the optimal solution and then he uses the very the same words very dangerous severely hurt and killed performing these Maneuvers and increased risk of accident to occur if a collapse other than it's going to be difficult if not impossible I'm also concerned about the ongoing maintenance of the turnaround and then he throws it to the municipality to be the one to enforce now I know one of the biggest problems in our town since I've been here which zero told um is enforcement it's always the problem in every town I think that we're going to now enforce no parking in no parking areas someone comes to visit oh just park there the Fire official in this letter also brings up snow when you plow snow you put it somewhere um so although he says it meets the intent he goes through and really chastises everything about this and is concerned then he goes into on the second page of his letter um again with a little bit of a loose wording which I'm not I want yes or no from my My Fire official I'm not being super critical but he's in a position I think where okay they meet the intent and the ideal word they can turn a truck around but when you read this he's really saying that some other options need to be explored and I think that's what we talked about with the easements um so I unless you want to go through his letter in detail I think that's where we are that sure they have a copy I'm sorry they have [Applause] a so so I think we should still have this easement pursued we have make the phone call if I have to go in and get a pizza and talk to the guy or but that's something but what do we do if that can't be accomplished I think U I think we crossed that road when the the E the perfect option is available to us and before somebody shoots it down I think we should look at that I really do so have we talked to the owners or we well has I guess the question would have you talked to the owners right we have talked to the owners um as Joe is the one who's talking to the owners and we did uh try to come up seeing Luke Kilmer Chief Kilmer's uh meal today we did try to come up with an alternative thought would be closer to what he had in mind because he does talk about uh an alternative suggestion for an easement um Anthony you want to walk the board that as a possibility and I I think and Joe correct me if I'm wrong I think we don't have a problem with a condition of the approval being that we will make our best efforts to get one of these in place but but the problem is if the approval Waits until that is in place that's where all the deadlines go by if that were the case we would continue to lose hear from um what concerns me is um I just don't have a firm indication yes or no one way or the other I haven't been um the owner did not ask for um anything particular he said send me the material I will review it and I like to share with my attorney so I'm trying to I've been trying to see uh where he stands with that so we've traded calls over the last few weeks he's been away I've been unable to communicate with him via email phone only um and so I have no problem trying to continue to pursue that and when I read uh uh Chief Kilmer's email clearly you know I had had a misunderstanding about the type of easement that we might seek that was also the part of our conference call where I got disconnected had trouble Miss part of that that might explain it but in any case uh what would be most helpful what we really like is to have the ability to proceed with the design that we presented uh this evening uh knowing the the scope of what can be reviewed what we've attempted to add the mitigant that we have while also still trying to pursue a more practical solution to this apparatus circulation matter there a couple of different ways to do that um and we'll we can explore I guess there are two of them um but since we've already established communication with um the owner of last six and seven place the beat's place um that's probably the best place to continue to to work and um FR you had asked when we had our review what uh what kind of Prior efforts were there and uh I was able to find find out this is before my involvement with the project that we actually had connected with um the owner back at the end of 2022 okay um our construction manager did and he um initiated a conversation about it but never took it further because at that time we had also come across the interpretation from DCA about the applicability of rsis that appeared to be uh favorable for our situation so we that we didn't need to turn around that we didn't need to turn around so we continued to push that route clear and then you know it went the way it did so that's that's the history where we are today so to talk about the existing turnaround I spoke about critical clearances and I if the car is overhanging that line a little bit it it's it's not easy it's going to be very difficult I hate to even say this but I think additional car spaces would be you know maybe two more spaces would need to be removed uh to give a little flexibility on on this movement uh I was just about to say we could ident those two spaces that Fred was concerned about the clearances we would still be above the number that Nathan testified we needed corre that's correct and but but I hate to eliminate any spaces but I'm saying for fire purposes um and it would that's correct there are the two two are but somehow I'm sorry which two are they I apologize 26 and 32 thank you but again I'll leave this to our attorney how do we go about approving something that they'll do a good faith effort and talk to the neighbors can can I ask a question before the attorney speaks so the building itself the distance of where it goes into the parking lot and and I not an architect or anything is there a way to make the building less into the parking lot to give clearance instead of trying to take away parking spaces and the building be made small actually we actually looked at flipping it up on point two so that the L wasn't this way we spoke about flipping the L at one time and no interestingly enough um this the the turning radius here this clearance is um about 2 feet larger than what the clearance would be in the Flip Flip and making the building smaller is not making small smaller smaller unit help it also doesn't eliminate but it doesn't eliminate the backing up it would not that's that's the chief's concern I thought that would give us more parking lot to one thing to keep in mind is that that diagram there shows a single maneuver where you back up and then you go out and we do that all the time to show how how a vehicle will do that you could certainly back up into that position and if you didn't do it perfectly you pull a little forward you back a little up and you do it with it with with two moves that maneuver is going to happen when the event is over and they're leaving there's not as much there's not as much um that's not the case the Fire official talks about a potential collapse in those types of situations where they have to Escape From The Scene if he had to get out of there chaos is going on and that that's that's what the bulk of his letter speaks to all right Anthony you want to show the alternate that we came up with as sure as a possibility to try to this isely late development but in general um to maintain the overall parking count that we've been talking about tonight not the previous application but tonight maintaining the 43 parking spaces we essentially relocated these four parking stalls to here this is where the truck was backing up um and then by virtue of of mirroring the parking lot currently the parking stalls are on this side of the lot we're suggesting mirroring this parking lot uh with putting the curve cut here and then providing access through easement from our parking lot into the neighboring parking lot it allows the truck to pull in and then turn out and that's Terrace on your left this is Terrace on our left and there's enough room in four spots to run that truck through yes okay but they could they turn on with I haven't seen this was 3:00 yeah oh no I know but again the best case scenario Joe would be to go and we're happy to have a condition be that we'll make our best efforts to if if straight Works we're okay with straight I'd like to hear from our attorney you know to to I want to get his take on well I mean we're as always we're Bound by what our ordinance in this case or or or the Redevelopment plan requires um we can't hold a developer or an applicant to to kind of a vague or subjective standard so so a condition that the applicant make a good faith effort to obtain an easement wouldn't be something that let's say we could strictly enforce it would it would be what we would want to see the applicant come back with evidence of that to to satisfy that condition but it would be one that would be Again difficult to enforce without a because there's there's not really an objective standard as far as as what a good faith effort means but I mean obviously the applicant wants to work with the town and make this work that's why they're they're here so chance your question that really isn't enforcable thank you but it would be something that we would put in the resolution and say look you know you need to do this and you need to present some evidence that you that you made you know you did the best you could to secure these easements and then we would have to go from there but but it would be difficult to let's say deny them a a final compliance approval or construction permit on the basis of that condition okay St my concern is the F this was all that you're here tonight because of the Fire official DCA Fire official is he approving it in this letter that's what I'm I don't want them to come five months from now and all of a sudden they show up again at their door and I'm I'm here looking at they we want to get this place built and site look look nice abely but does this say that he approved it I don't think it does well he says that pushed around before if you go Court the first thing the judge is going to look at is I believe with the items they have met the intent does that mean he agrees with it or I I don't because then look at the words below there people I'm judge I'm just saying that's what's going to jump out to somebody agreeing with this it's it's a critical item and life Hazard situations so that I don't know how B wants to consider it was another letter says are tell it's taking us six or eight months to get this I mean I I read it as look the speed limit's 45 they're going 45 they comply I really think the speed limit should be 30 I mean I take it as you know the above items they met the intent of the fire code and the first paragraph is our jurisdiction is limited to determining if they've met the intent of the fire code I certainly understand why the backing up is not the optimal solution if we can avoid it we'll do everything we can to but what's the advantage of what we looked at right there the truck never rest the back up no no I'm saying what why isn't this acceptable rather than the truck backing up they don't have access to that yes they do no we don't just bu it's theice has to like you stole it I got you right through you know and also Jo I'm probably the one with the longest history with this project other than you people um we did attempt to buy at the beginning of this the package store and the owner at the time apparently believed that we couldn't go ahead with the project without it and so the price was exorbitant would be an understatement yeah none of those discussions have happened with Joe and the owner of the pizza place but if it's hey you can't go ahead unless you get an easement it could be uh yeah sure for $5 million we'll give you whatever you need we talked to also I can offer this the new owner of the of the that's what he's that's what he's been contact with no the liquor store the liquor store that that trip has sailed no no no the old owner that wanted all that money right but but now there's a new owner we start with the liquor store that would assist us with this issue the other we're in the 11th Hour at this point we can't reinvent the wheel is what I'm hearing what I wanted to share was the feedback that I do have or the question that I received um from the owner was um really about the loss of any parking space for his customers seems to be most concerned about his customers in this scenario there isn't any change to that but again that's just justed feedback I can in reality no customer parks there we all pull up on the side in the back there's nine spaces whatever in the back your look at the potential customers he's getting when we build this there were people there evening I just five or six I know it's there but I've never I've never used it okay okay actually you're on we're talking about getting you up here it's esape I mean just the best okay why don't we do that now sure all right you want to take a quick break and we'll we'll let the resid why don't we take the res yeah I have really nothing else to add other then I'd love to have a letter I'm going to open up to the public now anybody in the public have any input into this application as we're hearing it come on up would you guys do me a favor and just step back let them have you can leave yourself there okay just let them have the uh the chairs come on up come on up please take take your time have a seat relax sit down and hold that microphone closer and we'll hi yeah hello your name and your address please uh Alexa staff 17 North Terrace Avenue I live right behind Monte gillo I'm not in you please raise your right hand Sor do you swear affirm the testimony you'll get tonight will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do thank and we have name and address so we're good sure um I'm not in direct opposition to it um honestly at this point anything's better than looking at what we call the pit um the parking did concern us greatly in the very beginning I do have some concerns I think a lot of people I you seem familiar with B gillos but I live on the street and that area that you're talking about is extremely tiny and like you said no one actually uses their lot they constantly Park on both sides of the street so a fir truck trying to come through that tiny space and make that turn either way it's not going to happen like I mean know I know it's not an emergency but it's tight there's also the issue at the end of the street where it's never enforced the no parking here to Corner signs I mean I can't tell you how many times I'm almost hit trying to get off my own street so it's tight um but yeah that's really the only I I just don't I don't know if the owner of money GES will grant that at all but even if he did I just don't think it's practical so to me it sounds like they've met the conditions whether the turnaround is tight or not it doesn't sound like it's a legal issue but I don't think directing more people on nor Terrace is a great idea so one of your points is you think it would be just as hazardous getting out onto your street as doing that turn around and all their deliveries on our are on our street they're not on Main Street so the proposed access that we were speaking about to Terrace would be gated and it's only for the fire truck but if it has to be used she's saying that truck isn't going to get out whether it goes through that gate or not it's not just spoke about that the idea is to get away from a building that would be collapsing so even if they park behind on a gorillas it's still in the C okay so they're just trying to like we're talking worst case end of the world scenario that building's coming down they're just trying to get the apparatus away from building so I like a two-story apartment okay it'll probably never be used never yeah no you would hope that's a scenario that we never ever ever see practically speaking is there anything that would block a fire truck from just going going through that area in the event of a worst case scenario it's curving curving right now which I think a truck yeah I don't think trck I mean there's a backa not appro question forne wecome fin you're in map shade you get it now let's get on it's about 18 ft wide the distance that's open so yeah the fire truck drive right over right can we put that in the condition want that fire truck to have might D your dumpster a little bit but sorry we'll replace that to have lawful access to that emergency I think some of the other questions too that we had in our conversations was it might not always it could be a mutual Aid thank you much for your we really appreciate it could be a mutual Aid company that comes mind you going to go through it but with a mutual Aid neighboring fire like that they're all coming so you know yes maybe that's where Sor the gone try have one speaking at a time if we can in there there is an extra copy of the plan Alexis thank you for coming Alex your patience was amazing all right thank you for coming we appreciate your patience any anybody else okay seeing no nothing for entertain a motion to close the public portion second all those in favor I oppose okay back to our conversation question or my experts now where do we go with this is what we're we're we're focusing on on the back of the building and I'm certainly not a Fire official but if if things were really going up could we fight the fire from Main Street well the the issue with the ladder truck is we have disabled veterans and seniors so the issue is uh the ladder trucks their way out yeah well the issue is recovery of the people weying the people out so I mean their way out I don't think anyone really cares about the building um it's the people inside the building for people out from the front are all the residential the our lobby discharges right here so this is the primary access point I think this is something that we this is out of our for the Fire official I think what he's saying if the building there's no access out and they're going to take a ladder up to grab whoever's on going back or that when I say that's their way out they're physically going to come down a ladder got it that's the worst case you know again end of the world scenario got yeah and there's a million inappropriate questions we could get into about the fire suppression like taking a building that was built in the 80s versus what these gentlemen are going to build is it's going to be much safer right like this is all kind of assumed things and I understand where the Fire official is coming from I absolutely understand Mr torque where he's coming from he wants a yes no he's a black and white person we learned that from having him as a member on our board here 5 minutes after I met him um I get that uh I think the liability is you know he he's clearly trying to dodge some of the liability in that letter uh and you know if there is a situation 10 15 20 years from now and that letter ends up in front of a judge he wants to have a scapegoat um the biggest thing for me is you know who's liable for this and disapproval we're not here to approve the fire truck turning around correct like we're here to just hear the application yeah it's not our call this is out of our jurisdiction from what I understand so so you're thinking Justin then the if there's an issue down the road and it becomes a court issue it's really not ours it's it's the it's not when when there is no professional on record who approves this circulation and when he clearly writes practically it is not possible or he's against the proposal we should have some professional on rack or who can solder the responsibility would you like to sold the responsibility in in place of the professionals no then I I would just like to hear maybe one more bit of testimony that they say that the vehicle will can absolutely make those terms put that on the record we are here tonight because parking spaces modified the site plan and they're here before us this is many why we're here because they had to accommodate but this certainly isn't a strong letter that's all my point is this is not a very good letter it's not giving me Comfort but it's the letter we have to deal with the letter we're dealing with yeah so perhaps but can we get testimony just says that you're comfortable and you've done all your engineering and it's in your opinion this meets what were you saying your name wait get your qualifi your name yes Jack and glaz uh qualifications I'm a LIC a professional engineer in the state of New Jersey since 1984 and a registered architect in the state of New Jersey since 1983 I was the profession who testify on first application 10 years ago okay and your license is current and they both current yes welcome back uh Jack you have designed this maneuver and analyzed it that's correct and in your professional opinion uh if necessary will the maneuver work in my in my opinion the maneuver would work I think um the the only critical points are this parking space And this parking space but it doesn't include going into this already strike no parking area on this backup maneuver so it probably could have gone a little bit further before it did this and then and then made it without touching that but that's so parking space 26 do you think that should be eliminated it's parking space 26 and 32 two and really in question 26 for sure right and it's a fair point that would help address Mr Turk critical clearance issues right if you had to do this in one maneuver and get out without doing it um without doing any manver maneuver that then you obviously should lose 26 for six 26 for sure yeah we still meet them my recollection of the testimony was quite a few spots over and I know parking sounds like a critical concern but this is more well that eliminating those two and Nathan correct me if I'm wrong um under the most stringent it criteria he used uh we have 43 and we would need 41 correct and so eliminating those two would actually put us at the 41 of uh the highest criteria that used correct and what if I can just add one other thing to the testimony relative to the parking maybe a thought or recommendation would be that this space 32 was a compact space so it's not quite as deep know we have a few others of those already on the site so maybe we can 32 yes I understand the concern about 26 but maybe 32 is a compact space so that it can and I guess I'll add if there is a critical emergency that we're you know we're hitting the eject button who the hell cares if somebody's in that parking spot if you're talking about people's lives right over or our fire truck we're not I mean none of this really matters we can analyze this for another two hours or I think I believe those are already compact spaces are they no just the twoes closest to the driveway compa these actually a little fur out so we can make that would be great we just sign it for compact so The Advocate agree to eliminate parking space 26 and restrict space 32 to compact only yes and that'll help the radius it helps and and if it helps at all the liability is never going to end with the the official and again should they it's going to be in in my court should they should they get access through this easement I think then the parking stall should go back in yeah including some of the others that someone had pointed out yeah bringing those four back and all that bring the four back yes oh absolutely I think that should probably you agree you would build those if you can get yeah that's the only C if we if we went for the point well actually we don't lose any other plant on the bottom because they just go into different spots so the numers stay the same and if it could be the reason that we want this is just just to get the fire truck out of the way correct get them out the build falling so maybe that could be a selling point to theill is an amp hey this is a listen we're going to we're going to we're going to put this uh whatever the concrete papers and the grass over it building coming through zero setback correct there until they can get it out would be to their their benefit you have to you have talked okay using it to make it leave the the premises go out on it's just the protection of that FR was also saying building there so they're their to yeah they're going to they're going to be concerned their building they don't want their building to burn down so it's in their best interest also to have this there because they're all connected they're all connected and I learned something new that Monte gr has parking I no idea well if the board is okay with it then we'd be looking uh for a motion on the floor to approve the amended site plan application I don't believe there are any new variances or waivers required of the of the application the conditions of approval would be compliance with our February 23rd engineering review letter compliance with the well the fire officials 22824 letter I'm not sure there are necessarily open comments but um I think the applicant did testify that they understand the remaining concerns of the Fire official and clearly there's some there are proposals to to address those concerns the applicant has also agreed to make a good faith effort to obtain the required access easements from adjoining property owners and there's there's one or two proposals that the board discussed the our engineer had a recommendation the applicant has an alternative access plan proposed as well and the applican has agreed as a condition to to pursue those easements and and and to uh hopefully have good news for the board and submit evidence that they've reached out to the to the property owners seeking those easements and I think we already have I mean we have you've already submitted certified mailings proof of certified mailings and Communications so we would just be looking for uh I think more of that uh just to to demonstrate that the applicant did all they could to to at least explore those options at the end of the day if if the applicant presents those you know submits those mailings and and and makes it clear maybe a certification something whatever their efforts are to detain those easements we would want to see some proof of that and if they can't get the easements well that wouldn't be the board wouldn't be denying a final compliance or a construction permit approval or anything like that on that basis so move to the new plan where we're going to get rid of those two parking spots yes and so yeah if those if those easements cannot be obtained then the applicant would be has agreed to revise the the plan and the board is approved this is approving this tonight should it be necessary the elimination of the space 26 and restricting space 32 to a to a compact only and and that's uh I think think that's it Mr chairman as far as the conditions of approval the the Fire official letter I think you know he he says it meets the intent of the code I I don't know if he if that if he strictly stating that that you've complied with all of the njac chapter 5 IFC 2015 regulations by stating that um I don't want to have you know I I I don't want to leave any open item here to say open-ended items after you know prickly after you guys have have pursued this for as long as as you have to get to get a clear answer but I also am not you know I'm not in a position to state that that this is you know we get an engineering letter that says the applicant is isn't in compliance with all their conditions of approval and that you know they our office will sign the plans once they're submitted and you know this isn't that so uh I think I think I if we could get any additional clarification from the Fire official uh if he he does have here if any of you have any questions or would like to to discuss further please contact me um you know I could I could do that on on behalf of the board just to try to get just to make sure that his his opinion here is that the plan complies and and you know we will I think we will just look to let's say button up and and get confirmation here that the Fire official has signed off on this because of course that getting his approval is of course a you know a condition of any approval well maybe if we explain to him how we're going to do away with those two parking spots so forth and so on he was concerned about the mo motiv motive what the articulation right right may I ask a question the property that you're asking to get an easement for is it where the nine parking spaces are no that's what okay no well it could be could be that is that is the that's one route we can take three options I think that would just put them parking out on on the streets no it would would FP they would lose any spot but would just if if they could use that and you could utilize that you have the you have the gate put up there the only way you would would use that is if had to come in there and leave hopefully never right right hopefully never but what I'm saying he says right there those nine parking spots if we if you could get the approval to use those nine parking spots for an emergency what does a fire tror if there's cars park that when has to get out we have to flip the orientation like the sketch show they showed it would work yes yeah I'd much rather be able to see obviously it go straight and either Park or exit behind monacillos and hearing a resident obviously I know that's a very tight street but tight stre life over limb over a car a dented pickup truck a dented fire truck I really don't care you know I mean it comes down to lives but I I hear everyone and and fire truck is going slow no I get it Steve my only concern with what you said is I don't want to dump it on Susan but she she can tell you how long it has taken just to get to this point literally we're talking six or six or eight months this whole project could stall if we have to go back to Chief Kilmer and try to get him to clarify what he clarified what we talked about and we thought we had resolved back in like November my fear is that he may come back to you in five months and now you're out of your window so if we can but we had a forgive me if I'm wrong but we just had a professional testify that he agrees with this so take the letter out of it we had a professional qual and again this is where the attorney to protect us as the township I just I think we need to take Chief Kilmer's as we met the intent it's not the perfect solution I if I had to do something if there were more room i' do something else but I mean we met this is what we he starts off by this is what we have jurisdiction over you've met the intent well we can say we met the intent but we also changed the plan to try to make it easier for fire truck to make to get out so we didn't make some you're still going to pursue these yes absolutely I just don't want to I I understand why Steve said what he did about approaching him again it just could be the endless Vex and I'm not picking on Chief kilber he's got if it's going to take eight months you're not going to get your money that's that's going to be the other pretty much it we're we're stuck with our looking in a nice uh what did you call it a pit right the pit and then we're stuck with yeah there's no nobody in this room that doesn't want to see this project move forward I mean we will absolutely pursue the easements I mean Joe's been working on it vigorously for the last three weeks I think I'm due for a followup tomorrow okay right I have questions to our board attorney Steve I'm sorry I have a question in absence of the township professionals approval on this plan who is the responsible in the case something happens in the future no no in terms of liability should there be some sort of accident there wouldn't typically be liability for anyone associated with the township um that is uh typically the elected officials and uh their professionals are they're not liable for uh enforcing or failure to enforce any particular ordinance if there's if there's an accident there's no you know and and someone sued the planning board because 20 years ago the board approved the site plan the board would be out of that case very very quickly on on a motion to dismiss so the board is approving the site plan and of course conditioning its approval on the applicant securing all outside permits and approvals that are required the fire officials approval is one of them and and the applicant has has presented the evidence that they've obtained that approval per this 22824 letter from the Fire official of DCA so we would uh yeah there wouldn't be there wouldn't be responsibility as it was it was the same situation I believe I was not here in this position in 2013 but the 2013 approval 13 or the 14 approval was also the same that they will meet the requirement of the Fire official and still it is spaning at this point where the board is in in intent of delivering the decision since last 7 years they say we are working for last 6 months but where is the change of the plan there is nothing change of the plan only that they are drawing how the truck would be circulated or they are only trying to reconfigure on the basis of the parking spaces they they did testify that they tried and the fire circulation fire truck circulation in my life I have seen that it never backs out circulation is a circulation go straight turn around straight never back out fire truck backs out he clearly said it is a very critical situation here's here's my question you're saying that the fire marshall is going to have to approve this no we're saying this is the approval this is the approval okay so we don't have to get the fire marshall back invol there's any liability Mr angl already testified it's on him he designed it okay and I mean this is certainly challenging because this has been a long time and I feel like some of these questions should have been addressed let's go back in a time machine that's not the applicant's fault that we didn't ask these questions that the you know man may I ask another question do these plans show your new and improved fire suppression uh the architectural plans I'm sure do Anthony because I know you brought was that something that you said you were going to add or is it something that's already included in this plan fire supression we identifi of the fire the fire supression but those components have been identified on the plants the wall the wall the wall hydrants H that is and also the the upgrade up everything is here yes we have copies okay right we have copies now I just want to make sure that that is AG addressed because it's an it's an addition that's part of what we're asking you to base your decision on the genie came we covered every base we possibly can cover to try to make this thing work and and the building supressed as they said the buildings supressed they upgraded the depression system so we just want to make sure that once we revise our plans to be in compliance with this you're ready to go I we understand where you're coming from construction plans I think have been on file since February of last year fe3 we understand where you're coming from and and I have a question has nothing to do with anything except I just want the answer to it somebody said that the 15 of the 60 would be disabled veterans do we have any other low income or any other numbers broken out and if you don't have them it's fine I'm just asking for myself how how do you mean like of you're saying 15 of 60 it's leaving me 45 are any of them considered low income or any of them geared for any other specific group of people they are all income restricted up to 60% of Ami which for this region is probably for household of tool approximately 50 to 60,000 I don't have the 64,000 okay that was close but yes they're all income restricted higher smart people that comes so we'll mark the 22824 letter from uh fire chief Kilmer as exhibit A1 uh formerly part of the the hearing record not that all of the previously submitted plans and correspond aren't part of the record because they are but um just for uh for potential access review later on um it'll be exhibit able in our in our record here well folks I think we've come as far as we can with this so so Steve one more time would you read how we would approve that like the scenarios or is it just approved as submitted it's a uh it's I mean it's it's fairly straightforward as far as approving the amended site plan uh there are no variances no waivers it would be subject to compliance with any outstanding or open comments or recommendations from our engineer from the board that was that were uh made tonight for the engineer testimony tonight as well as the 22324 review letter the applicant uh will also be working to pursue those easements that I think the board and the applicant understand what is required there and in the event the applicant cannot obtain those easements then they will revise the site to eliminate parking Spas 26 and and limit space 32 to compact only so you know the applicant their next step should they be approved is to to try to get those easements and if they can't well then they'll be submitting final compliance plans with the parking adjusted accordingly and and then they can go from there okay thank you I have a question for the final compliance which with the parking adjustment does still it satisfy the fire officials turnaround requirements repeat that please with the parking at the at the time of if they could not receive the easements yes then there will be a there will be again a parking uh reconfiguration well you're deleting spot making a spot of compound so does that help oh it does it assists yes it it does the critical area becomes less critical if they can eliminate 26 and reduce 32 3 so does board agree for that okay think we're good we I think we're ready for a motion I'll make a motion to approve you have a second second roll call please Emily Wallace yes Maran Constantine yes Justin bannett yes CL wpy yes Susan dansson yes Steve Smith approved Daniel McDonald yes Joseph Dugan yes thank you very much thank you for getting s step forward good luck at the risk of sounding like complete suck up which I do well fredman great I that's why we threw him off the board that's why we threw W the board he was a pain in the neck on the board but it wonderful 12:00 so you know he two other locations I did not he has a location in um s on Westfield Avenue and the new one well not new new but his newest one is in Collingswood on Haden Avenue okay the one that's in Maple Shade Nick is the person that's charged there we still have meeting we still have minutes we should well I think our our project manager the building saw there emergency contacts posted on the door the window so I think I have his C so I'll meet him Wherever Whenever around motion to approve the minutes of January 24th 2024 thank you everyone thank you I'll make that motion second all those in favor guys have it any more conversation needed tonight seeing none I'll entertain a motion to adjourn so second all those in favor good meeting long my first zoning board --------- sorry two hands I know I know and uh we're gonna we're recording so go ahead second time at this time I'm going to call the February 28th meeting of the maple Shay planning board to order would everyone please rise and salute the flag flag United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liy and justice for all public notice of this meeting has been given in accordance with the provisions of the open public meetings act we're going to start our meeting off by swearing in our newest member Daniel McDonald Mr McDonald you please you can can swear up come on up your chair is over here with our engineer number one seat um please raise your right hand and repeat after me I please state your name I Dan McDonald do solemnly swear do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Saints and to the governments established in the United States and to the governments established in the United States and in the state and in the state under the authority of the people under the authority of the people so help me God so help me God I do further solemnly swear I do further solemnly swear that I will impartially and justly perform all the duties I will impartially and justly perform all the duties of the office of planning board member of the office of planning board member according to the best of my ability according to the best of my ability so help me God so help me God congratulations welcome to the board thank you take that's the worst part of it Dan it gets easier after that can we have a roll call the board please John beard Emily Wallace here Robert wi Marian Constantine here Justin Panet here glair wpe here Susan dansson here Steve Smith present Joseph du here Daniel mcdonal here don't forget Dan after he just went througho the first item on the agenda tonight is 108 East Main Street block 91 lot 3 Dr Brew litters Beer Company pb22 d07 the existing use is a micro Brewery and yogan Studio proposed use previously approved micro brewery cofree store and yoga studio the application amendment to previously approved site plan the applicant is seeking relief to construct seasonal tap shade at a previously approved dog park space welcome how's it going good evening thank you Mr I just found out what a dog park space was and now and now you're doing away with it took you two years to learn I'm getting rid of it that's yeah hopefully you you'll find hopefully you'll find we put putting something good in its place um my name is Bob baronowski I'm an attorney with the law firm of Highland of Ben chaparro in Marlton we represent Dr brittles in this matter of course you know next to me is Mr Jack O Connell he's a one of the Proprietors of Dr brittles also behind us just in case we need to hear any architectural testimony though I don't ipate you'll need to Mr Jeff Grogan our architect who's going to be testifying first up Mr okell we we'll take it right away straight away have Mr oconnell sworn name that's right please raise your right hand do you swear orir the testimony you give tonight will be the truth all truth nothing but the truth I do uh please state your name for the board and address uh John oconnell it's uh 105 Baker Boulevard Marlton New Jersey 08053 thank you yep okay so I think everybody has a copy of the 11 by 17 plans showing the the location proposed location of the seasonal uh tap shed uh Mr O Connell has been sworn in he could tell you much better than I can about the details of what it is and where it's going and how it will be used and he'll take a walk through uh the comments and questions from Mr turx review letter I think that gives us a good framework for his testimony so Mr oconnell want to take it away I will um so you just want to go down the bullet points real quick what is a tap shed to begin with so a tap shed is defined as anything that can Service as like an outside seasonal tap shed so our plan for this is a few years ago we had bought um you know like SE crates to shiing Containers so don't take metal on this one it is a shipping container but it's wrapped fully in wood so our plan would be that it opens up seasonally and when I have like nics or days outside it would be staffed and people who are enjoying a drink outside can also just go to that like Kegerator there rather than have to walk back and forth inside and outside so all it's doing is providing a basically shelter where I'm going to have a like a Kegerator that just plugs into an outlet there's no power Plumbing needed for this it'll plug into an outlet one once it's done we'll put it back in roll it up it's done so it's not like it's something that's year round it's just seasonal for like nicer weather Jack on the siding what would the siding be just give so the siding is wood siding right now um when it was previously bought little history on it it was actually used in like a history channnel Harley-Davidson show so the logos on it will be sanded off um we'll you know canine with any of the township requirements for signage and stuff like that but our plans right now are just to sand it all down stain it like a nice dark wood and that way it's appeasing to people who are driving by in the parking lots I just a metal structure that's sitting back there just like a wood siding not y it's all like wood it's like actual yeah it's not like plywood it's like nice like wood siding that you would see as like a display piece something like that and it'll be sanded and stained and everything like that too yeah yeah we can just run through them Mr chairman that's okay first two are just variances so obviously the rear yard variance is 20 ft we have 3.7 there's a 5ot buffer is the second item we have 3.7 so just explain why you're you're doing that and how it's yeah I remember when we had our first meeting I believe in um September of or maybe October of 2022 I want to say that was our original planning board meeting we'd explain that we want to get the most out of the outdoor section we understand that's back up to a parking lot but we would kind of either hide it with like you know vinage stuff like that so it didn't look like just fencing there so our plan was just to kind of get a little more space outside the natural property line goes right back to that curb and it matches with where our current production building is as well based on that setback so it just kind of lines up with the building itself so I know that when we had spoke in the first meeting I think they said that a variance would be all right we just were I know it's one of the items on the list but just we would still be see of variance just that setback not be so much so to offset the variant for the buffer is there a way you could increase some vegetation in there so our plan was to do like foliage outside like we're basically going to try to line the whole thing and then like even the fence that's leading by the sidewalk will have might be fake foliage but it'll be like nice Vines stuff like that so we're basically trying to hide you work with us yeah 100% we yeah nice lighting nice like plants out there some Laurel bushes things like that okay uh number three we went through with I hear steel container shipping container and I go oh boy yeah no understand sounds great you know what you're going to do and it sounds like it's already been sort of upgraded I guess on the inside for sure right well so that's what we'll do afterwards so it'll basically it's basically going to act as a shelter with a couple of like tables and chairs essentially okay is there any lighting proposed on this the lighting would be so our previously approved um pole bar structure has already had Outlets that were outside so our plan is since it's seasonal rather than run electric to it and have it running when we don't need it everything can just be plugged in we'll do some nice string lights that'll be plugged in just like kind of like aesthetically pleasing kind of Lights great and I know on the plans it says that the it self-contained the first thing I thought of no electric no plumbing and explain why it's basically just seating in a place that we can store like a Kegerator for outside events parties things like that and and the structure is going to stay there right it's not something you'd move no it would stay there correct um yeah cuz it already has the flooring base like a normal like container would will additional seating be created as a result of this no it's more just so that people can walk up to somewhere grab a drink and then go back to where they'd be seating outside like in our pre like the plan that we already set forth so no additional seats prop proposed it might have like a bar you walk up to to grab a drink but we don't have anything plan for inside just yet right okay um testimony signage you if you do signage you said you would comply whatever yeah whatever like the board Yeahs necessary we'll go through pretty deep whatever sign we want to put the back because we want to make a nice we in our original meeting I know we had proposed a mural on the side to do something more aesthetic than just like a plastic sign that'd be lit outside yeah so a mural that would say like you know Dr brutel shine yoga the coffee shop like it would have like a sign would be something more aesthetically pleasing just like a plastic sign that was there so that was proposed to the board in our original meeting but we also said if that's not approved then you guys want like whatever sign you guys want we're fine putting that there like lit sign everythingg on there yeah probably our logo is a dog so yeah yeah still don't get me started don't get me start please uh the Landscaping we talk about really there's only a three point it's a four foot wide area yeah but you can buffer that you can do a I just honestly I plan on just lining with some Laurel bushes they grow really well they're weather resistance that's great um and the last one is really the acknowledgement that there could be a a affordable housing contribution as a result of this and that would go through the township but just want to put on the record that there may be an obligation so yeah we we understand that okay that's all I have Mr chairman I didn't get there there may be a what did you say an affordable housing O Okay uh our ordinance obviously everywhere throughout the state but I just want everyone to be aware of it when they come up to us that there could be something else coming that's all how would that AFF Mr Baroni knows all about that yeah Mr T is correct say if it's considered an additional non-residential uh development that's added to the property if it results in an increase in the assess value of the improvements on the site that the Delta of the increase would be subject to a 2 and a half% fee so that goes that's a Statewide statute so if that's this is subject to it we'll we'll need to comply with that that's why I got himit I talk about the yeah that was all just nothing to me when you gave us all the I understand that I have to do scared us to death he tells me I do something I just do it pretty muchar said that that's right and the tap shed is 20 by 8 it's not like a 40 foot container it's 20 by8 yeah we're not adding on to it it's just it's a fully self-contained thing it's just 20 by8 not moving from that where's there electric I you said that there's no electric right that's being so there's outdoor Outlets that were approved for our original pole bar expansion that was done for a production facility okay so those outside Outlets are perfect they're just regular normal weatherproof outlets and when we need the spring lights we'll plug them in you know we'll just unplug them at night that kind of thing so it's not even like they're going to be all lit all the time either and all the lights that are outside on the P bar are all on timer so they won't be gone until like you know 2 3 in the morning stuff like that that's right Jack the front deck could you just explain how that works to the board so basically the way the shipping container works it was modified to fold down so one of the 20 foot sides folds down and that kind of creates a platform for people to walk up order something and then like walk away from it and when it's not in use we'll be able to fold that up pretty easily it'll be on like you know hydraulic stuff like that where someone can just hit a switch it pulls back up pretty much like a garage door and that'll fold back up so that way not only is it easy for us to do it seasonally it's also easy to close up where it's not open overnight God forbid someone forgets to take a a keg out or something like that the keger gets pushed back in we have you know anything out there we can just close it all up it locks it's fine it's secure that's the most important yeah like you're not getting in unless you have my keys pretty much which yeah I haven't lost in three years so not any other questions from for before I open up to the public how many Ed seats will be created there are no addition seats being created I've seen these um these before in other are that have been in they're awesome they can they're a really cool Edition yeah and then it's just something I can like if I'm not using the winter we can still have people outside that won't be in use and then what's nice out for parties spring summer I can just fold it out use it fold it back up or done Sweet Water Marina down one very nice they're just a nice addition like ours like I said it's not metal it's nice wood so it's not only aesthetically pleasing but also helps us out too and when you take the side down it doesn't damage the wood being on the ground no it's pretty Hardy wood they're like I think they're like 4X six or two like it's a pretty good frame around it's not just little pieces of plywood too and it's not like it slams to the ground it's on Hydraulics so it would be lower and raise based on like someone pushing a button like your garage door would be inine a little bit of an incline yeah we we plan on setting that in the ground so it'll be like safe to walk on and stuff like that it'll be like taped out like we yeah we'll comply with all that stuff still a question that door is opening towards your building not the parking correct yes yeah yeah that would yeah it's a drive-thru yeah that's right you I mean honestly there's like two parking spots right there you come up you pull the window up it's perfect I w't have any yeah ABC won't give me any issues that not even a little bit they would be your nice and easy no problem have I read that the the breweries are now allowed to serve food yeah uh so yeah we can serve what's called ad Minimus food so I can serve pre-wrapped snacks like we have a couple in I actually just did like a tasting of peanuts at the brewery which was weird for me but um we also can have food trucks so we can coordinate with like food vendors to work inside the brewery now so before we weren't allowed to do that or they had to be marked as a special event and I can only do 25 a year now the events the restrictions lifted so I have music pretty much planned every weekend Fridays and Saturdays until like June right now um we have a couple food Tri planned which have been been fining permit through the town and we have a couple food vendors that are now coming in doing like tastings with we're working with um Tis so sweet in the next couple of weeks to do like a beer and like dessert pairing which we couldn't have done before so now like the Restriction just lacked up a little bit we don't have kitchen hours is still exactly the same 9 o' N well 10 the weekend's 9 during the week yeah okay yeah yeah except for a secret midnight parties yeah I'm kid well we don't know um but you can't put a kitchen in and cook out that's all that would be a separate license if that was something we wanted to do down the line we would still be able to maintain as a would be more of a uh it's called a brew pub than it's just a plain Brewery so it' be a restricted license instead of a limited it's an option that we're exploring but right now we're pretty happy with where we're at I like that we're just doing beer I like coordinating with all the vendors that are in town for food and I also just like that it's more beer and I don't have to now manage a kitchen as well as much as my wife wants me to be home less I think that would be yeah okay this time I'm going to open up into the public does anybody in the public have any input into this application as we're hearing it seeing none I'll entertain a motion to close the public portion so m second all those in favor I oppos any further questions from the board hearing none I'll entertain a motion i' like to make a motion to approve a second roll call please one minute Emily Wallace yes Maran Constantine yes Justin Bennett yes glad wpe yes suan dson yes Steve Smith approved Daniel mcdonell yes Joseph Dugan yes very good thank you everybody appreciate guys never get rid of the Maple Shade loger right no that's a core four for us yeah I can't name a beer after the town and get rid of it I'm pretty sure my last question to you is what do the dogs think about they're pretty good actually we're in the works of making a non-alcoholic beer called safe for dogs so it would be yeah there you go there you go thank you everybody a great day next item on the agenda 29 Willow Road Block 189.5 lot 6 flanigans Town Center for LLC application number PB 2310 the tone is the zone is business development the existing use is a landscaping facility the proposed use is passenger vehicle repair facility the application is Prim and final site plan approval good evening I'm Ella mcdal I'm representing planning against Town Center for LLC and this is Omar Vera he is the general manager of the applicant he will be testifying as well as Mr jeffn him when he gets his okay you wouldn't mind too just writing your name and address on that page so that we can officially have it correct is is the um is 20 East m not coming tonight p no not 20 East m is not coming tonight you can go home thank you oh that is that yeah okay we're going to have you folks for an in please raise your right hands do you swear or affirm the testimony you give tonight will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do and your names and addresses please sure te Jeffers Jeffers Engineering Associates 707 North Main Street wro New Jersey Omar Vera 19 count Circle West E New Jersey thank you so um we are here for preliminary and final site plan um for the property of 29 Willow Road which is currently owned by Young Young's Landscaping um and is proposed to be purchased by um Mr Vera's employer which is of course the uh planning of town center for LLC um for a use as a um light duty repair um facility so that's U pickup trucks and and Automobiles um which is a permitted use as a conditional use in this Zone um and so I'm just going to ask Mr Vera to tell a little bit about the flanigans operation this is a separate LLC from the other LLC which uh the other companies one of which is next door 23 Willow Road but there are other entities as well just to give an a very brief overview of what what flanigans does and then um we're going to have Mr Jeffers testify about the actual plans if that's okay with you okay so briefly what what businesses does flanigans have now so right now we have our main corporate office is at Collins Avenue in pens New Jersey that's where everything's pretty much out of our tow businesses out of there our storage is out of there we have a Auto and Truck Body Shop at Collins Avenue U we also have two truck repair shops one in cinon on River Road and one in Lumberton on Maple Avenue that's strictly Just Truck Repair heavy truck repair uh tractor trailers dump trucks concrete trucks trash trucks um then we have a body shopping Maple shave on Spruce we have also on Willow Road 23 we have a car repair shop and a tow yard and that's where we do toes for M shade Mor town Mount Laura um that is excuse me when you talked about Willow what was that before the the CH you said something Auto Repair Auto Repair yeah so there's three bays in the front is auto repair and then the yard in the back is for uh tow okay um so this property is the next door property and when it came up available um they contacted us about purchasing it um that's our only Auto strict Auto Repair uh shop right now is the Willow Road and we have a big increase in auto repair a lot of clients tells with the trucking companies that have uh employee vehicles or company vehicles at are cars and need to get serviced so we need we've been looking for another place to do automobiles um and this place worked out perfect um the nice thing about this place is it has a yard in the back um which we can not have overflow Vehicles so a lot of times couple people come in and they can't get the car right in for a day or two now we would have the extra three Bays we can bring them in get them done it's pretty much just all going to be is brake suspension uh mechanical repairs like that um no body work heavy trucks U it's just our it's pretty much going to be take care of all this extra customers that we've been pushing back tell them can you wait till next week because we didn't have this uh space um and that's pretty much it oh and can I just for a second certainly I probably shouldn't do this but I was out there today in the rain uh right the property is in terrible terrible condition which property 20 Road the one they're buying or the one they have one they have the one they have have I I don't know okay I don't know it's next door Mr Dugan to the one we're looking at tonight so so the one they're currently working out of is the one you it had their name on it okay so that's it had their name on it right it was unbelievable I'll be honest with you I went out there was absolutely no parking anywhere none okay do you own the house next door to the to the pole bar yeah that's our okay the house out front used to have a front lawn it had I think 15 or 17 cars yes back and forth right up and back right no parking where we're supposed to have this I I just got to say what it is right the dumpsters are sitting in the street so so the our presentation is going to address all this if you don't you give us a little time and I have to point out are we going to get rid of the junk when I went out back they literally have a junkyard out back with like 30 cars well that's that's the tow yard which it's always been it's it's it's been a tow yard for property owner has any time in the past acquired the board approval for the junk yard it's it's not a junk yard it's a tow yard so the vehicles are only there for towing Towing is not permitted in the B Zone District you must have any previous approval if you are conducting the toing operations are all right can we can we just finish our presentation please I just want to make what what you know well we we have a letter from April shade from 1994 when we purchased a property and we did meet all was zoning at '94 we've owned it since '94 and before that it was carman's toen it was Bill esto he owned it for 20 years and before that it was Brooks Towing probably back from the 50s that's always been a tow yard the owner of the pl of the tow yard always lived in that house or the dispatcher lived in that house that was always a repair shop in the front older than we are when did the all right do your presentation but I'm tell yeah I'm telling you what's out there right now is just not acceptable Mr Dugan if you'd let us finish our present um um can't wait thank you make my day I'm happy to make your day Mr Dugan let me let me just do my job please so um Mr Vera um during covid did something change in the way the toyard was operated uh at 29 Willer road yeah so so what happened is when Co came shut the state down shut Trenton down so when we those Vehicles you see in the backyard are towed from accidents from the Mount Laurel Police Maple shap police mown police Poli um if the car doesn't get picked up the owner doesn't have insurance for whatever reason or the it's an abandoned vehicle and the police had it impounded or was a DUI and the person went to jail never came back the car gets impounded gets abandoned after two weeks the police department that initiated the toe goes and sends them the owner a letter they only respond two weeks later they send another letter another two weeks the police department then sends paperwork to Trenton to the motor vehicles asking for a uh junk title in the Township's name when those paperwork titles come back we're then allowed to dispose of the vehicles we don't cut the vehicles we don't scrap the vehicles our we don't we're not a junkyard we're just a tow yard and once we're allowed to get rid of the vehicles that day literally we're on the phone all right send two tow trucks down here and haul all these cars out of here the minute they come like 8 10 at a time so during Co when everything got shut down we got backed up we got so backed up that we were putting cars in other yards our pens yard is two and a half three acres was completely full we rented another yard in Merchantville we had a yard in collinswood just to take all the extra vehicles to storm because we couldn't get titles from Trenton fast enough now it's been a couple years it took them that long to start now all of a sudden we're starting to get titles in 3month Period and we're starting to get rid of vehicles a little bit quicker but for a long time we had backed up that's why we ended up renting the yard across the street owned by pscg we rent that um we uh monthly it's a year it's a year lease but we pay monthly and we were using that as an overflow for our customer Vehicles because we couldn't put the customer Vehicles behind the fence or enough parking spots in the front of the house or the front of the building to suffice for that that's another reason why this other property be good because we'll be able to get those customer vehicles that are there for just oil changes brake jobs suspension exhaust whatever it is brought in I have three more Bays three more mechanics get the vehicles in and out a little bit quicker now since Trent started picking back up we're able to get we actually if you go drive by there you see that yard across the street there's not one car on the street there's not one car out on the property we're still paying for it um but we clean that whole yard up there's nothing there so let's just get this straight the the vehicles that are towed to your lot behind 29 where who's asking you to to hold on to those cars police departments okay that what police Maple shet Police Department um yeah uh turpike uh Mount laal Township Maple Shay Township I believe Mo toown also there is also there as well okay we do 17 townships between all the different locations and they only stay there as long as it takes to get the title or the insurance picks the vehicle up or okay and and the police department is in the process of getting the title it's in the the Township Police Department's hands of how long that vehicle stays there so Alan that's for this site right we're not talking about the other site we're talking about this site this is 23 talking about 23 will Road talking about 23 right yes not the not the new site I just want to make sure yes yeah because that was what was addressed so yes we're only talking about 23 wheel RS so and and I hand to Mr Sony a letter from George Stevenson dated February 7th 1994 saying that uh this lot uh 2323a uh Willow Road well which was the next door and the two lots together um uh the conduct of a towing business is in accord with the permitted uses of the zoning classification there are no zoning violations of which I'm aware so since 1994 it's been a towing fac facility um so Mr Vera your testimony is um that you require 29 wheel of road for what reason for auto repair okay so you're doing Auto Repair at 29 but you don't have sufficient room for all of the vehicles that you need to repair we have a lot of clientele that we have more and more vehicles that we're working on and we need extra base space okay so if someone were to drive would have D driven by today and seen a lot of cars stacked up at 29 what would be the situation if you had 23 uh the the half of the yard will be emptied and the front will just be cars that were ready to go into the garage for work at 29 or the 23 23 23 okay yeah 29 is the make sure I got this right 29 is the one you're trying 23 is where we're at 29 just make sure I had that right so if we once we acquire 29 if everything goes correctly we can then take pretty much half of those vehicles that are in the front we'll be going in there but we're also going to have double the amount of mechanics we're going to have an exra three mechanics at that building we have four mechanics can I can I interrupt you in between uh you are exclusively applying in for the auto repair functioning not a storage of the vehicle autoing functioning so before you provide any testimony board will listen to the testimony related to the repair activities you need to clearly specify in front of the board that what type of vehicles you will be repairing at that facility what will be the size how many passengers will be occupied in each vehicle and those vehicle you will be serving at this facility so if it is a four seater six-seater 20 SE passenger vehicle is a part of application which you are seeking approval for I'm going to have to apologize number one right where is this other building located that you're talking about is it that the mustard colored building on no no if you stand if you stand on front of the property it is on left I there's a pole barn here and a big white house here and then the next property over there's another house and there's a barn behind it okay that I didn't realize that was part of this application that's actually the house that we're purchasing that single house not the one with the pole bar well it's got a pole bar okay I'm just looking at the you don't really see it from the front it's behind the building the B actually face backwards toward for clarity if I could just ask a question 29 is the young property which should have been empty except for some cars in the back 23 is the one to the right where is the head house where people live where the Green Lawn existed not that many years ago that's 23 do you what do you own next to that the garage what's the address of the Gage 23 that's all 23 now I know where I was I didn't go into that property I saw it but I didn't go into it okay so so that will only leave one more Residence at the corner which is owned by uh young okay gotcha okay so and let's just clarify about your test testimony about the um the PS p psng property which is across Willow Road from your current location right and you said that you had entered into a lease with psse and it is not a part of application don't discuss for that particular lot can I just please we don't want the testimony we don't want the testimony of the property which is not related to the application you were Mr Dugan brought this up not across the street I did I understand but you you you I'm not across the street is empty there was no cars on the street I'll vouch for all that I I'm not trying to make there look bad but I do have to point out what I saw when I came out and there was just I didn't realize there's other houses now a part of it right so Mr Dugan part of our review was bringing items up and stressing other items that were this is a conditional use because we are aware of especially when you look at aerial photographs over the years it's a little on the messy side right as identified wow so the things we're identifying the letter are to make sure that there aware put on the record and the board's aware we don't want this happening again right so and we want not as part of this application but we want the rest of the site cleaned up so that's not to be on kind and I'm I'm going to stick my neck out you own all the property right if you're going to do something over here then clean up this mess that's sitting right next to you being you own it buying the property so that we can do that well to say we also said exactly what we did the yard across the street yard was full three four months ago in the last three four months we've cleaned that whole yard out that yard is completely clean there's no vehicles on allowed to park on the street anymore we cleaned up and know I agree Fred said that you know there was trucks sometimes parked over there overflow there's no vehicles are allowed to park on Street property with the pole barn and the house is just a jungle of cars and that is why we're here thank you we would like to make the situation better by purchasing by spending money to purchase another property to get the cars out of this very cramp situation and make everything much better and and that and and flanigans has been cleaning up for six months knowing that it is a problem and knowing that that we're we're planning to to um purchase another property so that we can basically spread out enough that it won't be an isore okay we do want to as much as we can stick to of course the property that's before the board the the 29 Wheel Road and block 1894 lot six would be my pleasure let's head in that direction okay so um for the repair shop uh at 29 Willow Road what type of vehicles will be repaired there uh light duty vehicles uh passenger vehicles Passenger cars passenger pickup trucks okay and what types of repairs will be done there brakes oil changes uh suspension and how many employees will be working there on those repairs uh three mechanics and one person at the county okay um uh what will be the hours of operation 8 to five Monday to Friday will there be any air pumps or vacuum cleaners or water fountains installed uh within the front yard setback um will there be any vehicle waiting for service or having been serviced parked on the property for longer than 72 hours uh will there be any vehicle parked or displayed on the premises for the purpose of offering it or its parts for sale or lease no uh will there be any parts or dismantled Parts equipment Tools service fluids vehicles or anything of the sort stored um outside of an enclosed building or displayed for sale where it can be observed from the front yard um where will be the where will the customer and employee parking be the customer customer will come to the front and park in the parking spots on the front and then the mechanic will bring the vehicle around to the garage okay will any of those parking spaces in the front be utilized for vehicle repair finish work or storage of vehicles no okay so a customer comes in they need a repair what happens to the vehicle if the customer comes in they say that they need a brake job or whatever they'll mechanic will then pick up the vehicle and bring it around to the back of the garage okay will the customers be permitted to drive around back no they'll be in the front waiting room if they're waiting or if they're just going to leave and when they come back we will bring the vehicle around from the back to the front Okay um all right uh there currently on the property as you said is a uh what what appears to be a house a residence um will that be rented out for residential use or used in any way for residential use no it just be an office okay all right um I think that's it for Mr Vera unless anyone has questions and then we can move to um Mr Jeffers I have a quick question will will you attaining this property if you get permission and all that will that take your trucks off of Collins because your trucks are always parked on Collins and that makes it a all tough to turn that turn Collins and right oh I'm sorry Willow I apologize will I apologize I'm sorry yeah there'll be no vehicles at will not like I'm talking about not customers your big record no they're not allowed to park over there anymore okay everything's been moved to pens like all all the trucks are out of pens all the guys uh come in the pens and then they'll go to Willow when they they get a you know police call or they get a customer breaks down they get towed in or the vehicle getting towed out the trucks will come in there and they've all been um since we cleaned up the yard across the street they used to sit across the street the P yard would rented we had a discussion if that's it everything's over in pens walking or cinnamon CU Pat was usually driving one Pat was using Pat was over there all time right right right tackles actually have a tow truck there anymore there's no tow truck stay there overnight can you elaborate more about the light Vehicles because it is not a part of application you are representing that you will be servicing light vehicles and the passenger vehicles application is only limited to the passenger vehicles but your testimony like vehicle is is that the part of the application or no well passenger vehicles are light Vehicles a light duty vehicles are passenger vehicles how many seaters V you will be surving four C six CS it's under it's under the heavy duty rate it's under the duty rate give me the numbers how many seats yeah how many seats oh I guess a van could hold 12 people I guess a passenger van a Chevy b or something okay so you will be servicing the vehicle maximum