##VIDEO ID:tsF8lVAJO_0## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e here that's official all right um looks like we have a couple meting minutes to approve move to approve the minutes or a second the approval of the minutes for October everyone's getting everyone's getting crazy what are we doing for both October 3rd and 17th you want them one at a time well I don't know you could do them both together if there's no changes there we go okay I'll move both okay we have a second second both all in favor I all right moving on we'll sign go there in a minute my favorite part claw dis all right uh nhp I'm sorry np-1 new business um we are moving on to a request from L Lobby La sorry lbl uh North LLC for the zoning District change from or from the current re- 1/2a residential I'm sorry uh estate District to the Pud I'm not going to finish reading all of this staff is going to present this evening so who do we have presenting for us now um this is a quasi judicial so we oh that's right we got to follow the rules let's go back to the cheat sheet Communications today exper take I need water expertise I have no exper I do not either any interveners there are no interveners I I thought for sure my last meeting I would have intervenor okay all right um who may be testifying this evening can you please stand and be testified and waren ra your right hand do you swear or affirm that the evidence you are about to give will be the truth the I may have to go get some water with that being said staff may begin to proceed their presentation thank you members of the LPA for the record a copy of my work history has been fired with the clerk good afternoon members of the board my name is Barbara counsel senior planner for growth Management Department I am presenting a request for The Preserve at L LA North planned unit development with a master and final site plan excuse me the approximately 51 acre undeveloped subject property was part of a land swap in 2022 between Florida Inland navigation District fine in LL LCSC a future land use map amendment was adopted on October 18th 2022 for the site that changed the existing conservation land use to the estain density two units per acre the land swap allowed the parcel subject parcel to adjoin with the existing L Bay development to the South which has an estate density lus and gave a contiguous ownership of property to find to the north which is a conservation land use the subject property takes advantage of the area previously impacted by fine which plan to use the site as a spoiled site for dredge materials the mat the balance of the site is composed primarily primarily of wetlands that extend East to the intra Coastal Waterway the design designated mean High waterline runs along PEX Lake also known as Indian River Lagoon outlined in yellow Northern parcel is 51.79 Acres previously owned by L Lali was transferred to find the checkered marked area small middle parcel is 11.78 Acres remained under ownership with fine at lined in red Southern parcel 51.2 Acres previously owned by fine was transferred to L LA this is the summary of the proposed PUD 5120 Acres 13 single family homes access from Southeast laali Bay Drive density of 0.25 per Acres 92% open space provided for The Preserve area management plan protecting and restoring 1 97 Acres of wetland buffer a 0.27 Acres of pine fat flat lands and 0.53 Acres of scrub preserve site is located east of Southeast gumz Avenue West of the Indian River Lagoon approximately 0.6 miles north of Southeast ospr Street directly north of the existing Lop Loi Bay PUD in the Hope Sound access to the site is proposed off of the southeast lopl Bay Drive within the lopl Pud existing zoning district is 1 re 12 a residential estate density the L use designation is the state density 2 units per acre here we have a 2024 aerial showing the location of the subject parcel that was previously impacted by fine with the proposed development of the 13 single family lots within that impacted footprint the proposed site plan shows the Wetland buffer locations preserving majority of the parcel with a storm water track of having a 10t wide loral planting around that surrounding the retention area this also includes Upland preserve track areas running along that Southeast Gomez roadway and a lopl Bay Drive the total Wetland preserve is 35.7 acres upins are 15.83% Acres which is made up of unique rare scrub common Pine Flat Woods Wetlands connection and a man-made Wetland 0.20 Acres which is part of the development site the north gate onto Southeast Gomez Road will only be used as an exit only and for emergency access use only the main entrance is located through through a private road in the LL Bay as part of the Pud agreement the benefits to the developer are as follow smaller lot sizes smaller setbacks increased height and for this PUD the Wetland density transfer was not necessary proposed by the developer are the Pud public benefits a crosswalk will be constructed on Southeast Gomez road to the north of the property the owner will purchase a traffic pre exemption device of $6,000 contribute to the upgrades needed at the intersection of Southeast OSB Street and Southeast Dixie Highway of $10,000 and contribute to the Martin County Community Land Trust of 13,000 development review staff have found The Preserve at lbl North application to comply with all the applicable regulations and the comprehensive growth management plan as detailed in the staff report staff recommends approval of this application which includes a resolution for rezoning a PUD zoning agreement and a pamp which is a preserve area management plan this concludes my presentation I would be glad to answer any questions all right gentlemen Miss Barbara is presenting break her in what you got that's what happens I have a couple questions okay um the pamp has it been approved because it wasn't in my packet I know at this current um time I think Shan was working with the applicant in regards to that pamp so it does not have a pamp currently correct it will have a pamp as part of this application yeah but right now as a PUD it does not have a pamp it uh Paul Schilling growth management director for the record so there is a pamp pamp with this application yeah as part of this process is the approval of that pamp so we have our staff has reviewed it our environmentalists have found it in compliance so as a result of the board meeting scheduled for Tuesday that eventually that pamp will be recorded as part of the post approval process it's an exhibit to the Pud agreement well I understand I mean that it it would be necessary for the Pud agreement but it just isn't something that we have okay and I didn't see that that environmental had approved it oh so yeah the the the application's fully in compliance including the pay um and the other question I had was this uh pedestrian crosswalk is on Gomez is it North of the north exit or south of the north exit it's just north of that north exit so an individual leaving that turning because there's no reason that they would go north um would be turning South and so I'm not sure how that crosswalk protects any passengers or bicyclists on Gomez well if you have so if you have your crosswalk up in this is the north section so I saw that there is a proposed crosswalk over here where as you can see this leads into like almost like a a park preserve area yeah it's SE Branch right so if you have people leaving your Lop L and they're traveling up that walkway and they want to walk through you don't have that turn area that's going to be running over people I guess just well but all traffic is going to be going south on there's no traffic going North on Gomez right but the pedestrians right but the pedestrians are all going to be on the south side of that I mean you're you're trying to protect passenger or people from people leaving Lali rather than people on Gomez and so I think that a crosswalk should be on the south side of that exra to protect the people on Gomez from the people leaving laali okay I'm sorry uh Pete Walden Deputy growth management director I believe the applicant has their engineer of record here so he can discuss why that location was chosen okay thank you any further questions for staff size or concerns you made it Barbara you made it all right we'd like to uh introduce the applicant to come forward please make any further presentation uh good evening Brian Nolan with luo and Associates um I have proof of notifications for this meeting and uh next week's BCC meeting uh also with me tonight I have uh David Genta uh representing Lali uh Paul EO with ew consultants and uh bill oazi with lante engineering so I think we have our our consultant team is is here to answer any questions that anybody has um we appreciate staff's uh work and diligence as we uh worked through this application um we agree with staff's findings and just a couple of uh couple of short points um as mentioned the site will be accessed through uh L um with the and I think uh Mr MOA the the sidewalk access that you were talking about the crosswalk that's linking to the internal sidewalk uh in LA but we can look at that that alignment do you understand what I'm saying though I mean almost nobody from laal is going to turn north on Gomez almost everybody from from leaving that access is going to be turning south or left onto Gomez right that's why having a crosswalk yeah but having a crosswalk isn't going to protect bicyclists or or pedestrians on Gomez from people leaving Laval it's a one-way exit though it's not like a no I understand that but everybody's going to be turning left rather than turning right and so putting the crosswalk on the north side of that doesn't protect any pass any pedestrians it only protect pedestrians are out of the traffic that would be out of the traffic flow if we put it on the south side then everybody turning left there could be a conflict with pedestrians but we can look at it we can look at it further for sure I just I just know from bicycling on Gomez that it's the left turn that comes across your traffic pattern it's going to be problematic and it's also going to be problematic for dog walkers and everybody else if it's on the North side it doesn't do anything because there's no traffic there that's understood we can I I see what you're getting up um as uh as staff mentioned um you know we do have quite a bit of preserve on this site uh it's about 82% of the site area that'll be maintained uh under the pamp and The Preserve areas will be dedicated to and maintained uh by the uh L Community Services Corp uh as part of the the the broader L Community while the common areas uh internal to this development will be maintained by the uh L North uh POA um additionally I wanted to point out that 100% of the uh of the pine scrub along the west and North uh I'm sorry west and south boundaries will be uh maintained um in addition to uh all the wetlands on the site um as Barbara mentioned the there were there was no density trans transition or transfer uh from the wetlands because we're uh well under the allowable density which would be about 67 units um as far as the Landscaping goes uh I would like to point out that uh We've provided uh approximately 87 trees over and above the minimum that's required I think they're required uh 79 trees and we're providing 131 trees um also the landscape area provided is about double what would be provided so we're exceeding the code in those in those areas along with all of the Wetland and Upland preservation that uh that we've been able to manage um and as the aerial as you could see in the aerial uh in staff's presentation this development just fits very neatly into the area that uh that find previously uh impacted which uh which I think we're proud that we could uh we could make that work um with that I and the rest of our team are here here to answer any questions okay gentlemen any other questions the area that is co-managed by FD on this property is there any of this development that overlaps that there is a on the on the map there is a cross-hatched area that is still controlled by F and and it's I believe that area is outside of the project boundary I just wasn't sure I mean again that's just one of the reasons that I was curious about how the pamp manage that uh that area would be outside of the pamp I believe okay so that would still be under FD control for exotic invasive removal and everything else it wouldn't have your I I just don't know because correct it's outside of the the boundary okay anything else just this is going to be part of Lali correct basically for all intens of purposes yes okay I think it's a very nice project and you could have done a lot more density and you're going to be selling these homes for quite a bit of money and so I'm sure this is going to be something that Martin County can be proud of well and we credit staff as well I mean this is it's it's a back and forth process this this wasn't one submitt and and we arrived here in in a matter of a few weeks so it's but it's been a pleasure to work with staff to make this project what it is so if there's nothing else make a Madam chair Madam chair Paul Shilling U excuse me sir just for the record I want to make sure that we've adequately address Mr Moore's concern because I'm somewhat confused by it still and I want to go back to the map um there is a crosswalk north of the emergency and exit only for the subdivision putting that crosswalk South as I understand it would enhance the likelihood of conflicts with pedestrians and I know that the traffic engineer is shaking his head but I just want to make sure we've adequately addressed your question well I still am concerned that it's the traffic leaving lob this new development that is going to be impacting traffic on Gomez and so crossw yeah but the crosswalk is on the north side of the exit and there's no traffic there the only traffic is on the south side because it's all going to be turning left and going south on Gomez and that's the best place to have it is on the North side so you're not having traffic go over the crosswalk yeah the problem is that there's no I mean pedestrians and bicyclists that are using Gomez are going to be in conflict with the traffic that is coming out of this this development there is no other traffic otherwise are well there's really not a lot of traffic up there I run and cycle up there I I lived here for 5 years before I got my first call for a house in lob and I said what's Lob and the man that I was talking to said that's exactly how we like it there's not a lot of traffic there and there's places that I'm 100% that we have to worry about that's not one of the places that no I mean except that there's no shoulder there if you're riding a bike on the right hand side as a there's a lot of notion all over Martin County though yeah you're used to riding in that area get on a lot more traffic County good luck to you mwhere at has to take over you might as well go ride your bike on andyan River Drive that's where I'm at it's like you guys can get back to the point yeah we are getting back to the point we have any other comments for our applicants Elise we need public comment before you vote understand that I'm just yep I have it right here I know she's just I need a lot of check marks around here apparently y'all won't miss me I know you won't all right um so thank you for your presentation thank you Mr Len um do we have any public comment at this time I do not have any requests I just have one for the next item okay I did my job we ready okay okay so I'll make the motion that that we approve this development second all right all in favor I I I okay we all have passed the unanimously all right we are moving on to the N um that is n ph-2 public hearing to consider adoption of ordinance amending article 12 division 1 through 7 architectural design standards community redevelopment code Land Development require U regulations and Martin County Code uh presenter this evening from the county is oh soup Miss Susan no no it's going to be the treasure post oh okay oh well Dana and Jessica okay I know you go ahead you have been announced uh good evening turn this on uh Jessica Seymour from Treasure Coast Regional planning Council I'm here with Dana little the Urban Design director from Treasure Coast Regional planning Council um we're here to introduce the um proposed design standards for the CR um let me go ahead um I don't know how many of you are are familiar with the process that was started um in 2019 I believe um with an update of the CRA codes um this is an update to those codes but specifically to the architectural standards portion of the code so this effort was not to look at in at any changes to height or density or lock coverage or permitted uses so we just wanted to make sure that was clear for everybody um looking at the the code work here that those are not What's um being discussed we're just looking at the architectural standards the reason why we're looking at the architectural standards was based off of the feedback that we've received um and staff has received from applicants and through working with the code um so we wanted to address providing more Styles in more of the cras handful of the cras only had five available Styles or four available styles to choose from um we also needed to address better coordination with What's called the frontage types of those buildings with the Styles update the language so that it addresses commercial and multif family structures better much of the existing architectural Styles uh we're really focused on single family homes and we wanted to include more photos and drawings to make it easier for applicants and staff to understand that expectations of the Styles so again that work started um there were community redevelopment overlays um from 2004 to 2019 the code was um then updated in by 2021 but it did not include any updates right to the architectural Styles and now we're here addressing that that section of this code we kicked off this process in February uh we presented to the CRA there was also a CommunityWide presentation about the value of design we've been in uh in a communication with the Treasure Coast AIA we've actually hosted two workshops with them uh we presented to the historic preservation board and also received feedback from the Treasure Coast Builders Association then we went through all the nac's and then today we're here um we back to the CRA and we're here for the LPA today this document was attached to the work the your agenda item I believe and it's it's attached to um has been posted on the cra's website I like to refer to this as showing our homework for the work that we've done the part of our homework was to go back and look at each of the cras look at the history of how those were platted what are the historic structures that are there today what are the existing Styles in those cras today um this is an example from Port Sero where we documented um many Florida vernacular buildings um a type that we're calling Main Street vernacular as well as Bungalows and missions uh for reference there are um of the cras there are four cras that have architectural Styles in them today uh most of them include the Florida vacular the Mediterranean Revival Anglo Caribbean Bungalow um and then a few of them include the art deco and the classical traditional after looking at all of the the different um backgrounds of all the C we wanted to recommend including some additional Styles so those are outlined here in red the mid-century modern Mission Ranch Main Street vernacular and the Contemporary style all seemed uh to be included were all recommended to be included as appropriate styles to be considered for each of the cras either based off of the community input or what's actually on the built today and then I'm going to hand off to Dana little who's going to describe those styles thank you very much um it's good to see you all again um as Jessica mentioned and it's probably become clear we made a decision early on that this these design standards were going to be rooted in architectural styles that are fully recognized bonified and I think their elements are quantifiable and I say this because we wanted to try to ensure there there are no historic districts if you're in a historic district in a city you would have to comply with the secretary of interior standards but because there are not we wanted to root these in OB um objective criteria so that it wasn't subjective so that it was clear that we could Define what a Florida Bungalow is or what a mission is so I'm just going to quickly go through these as Jessica said four of the six CRA already already have architectural standards in them that reference some of these Styles we wanted to expand upon that that that cache or that quiver of styles that were available but then also rewrite the language so that it's much more um I think um appropriate for today's construction methods there are things that are written into those style that those standards years ago that are just simply not applicable anymore and we believe actually cause um hardship for those that want to build in the cras Florida vernacular probably one of the most recognizable Florida Styles I mean um typic typically clapboard siding often times metal roofs with Gable ends um they can be one in two stories often uh very traditional seen throughout um all of Florida um some refer to it as the cracker style or the Key West style there's a lot of different variations on this especially in new construction these days um so with each of the styles that I'm going to present there are a series of required elements of the style so I come to the CRA and I say I've got a lot I want to build a house I want it to be Florida vernacular that's one of the Styles that's available to me I need to follow these required elements now it looks like a lot but we really tried to work with staff and the AIA and Builders associations to reduce it down to only those core elements that make a difference the objective here is not to make the buildings more expensive but to keep them within the the proper framework of each of the Styles that's available so if you're doing a porch you shall follow or the for the port shall follow criteria that's already in the code today every building's going to have a roof every building's going to have walls every building's going to have Windows um and doors so we're trying to give General guidance and and direction for what are those types of windows and doors and roof styles that make up these architectural Styles there's also a series of things that we encourage um these would be operable shutters say for the Florida vernacular exposed rafter Tails um things that really um could possibly add you know a degree of of extra expense but we wanted to provide guide these as encouragement maybe even inspiration for someone who wanted to take their building um a bit further you know there's those that are that are buying Lots those applicants that are buying Lots hiring Architects hopefully and then building a building um there's also those that are Merchant builders that are doing a lot of you know very similar structures throughout the CRA that's one of the reasons why uh this was brought up um to try to provide as much Variety in the s as possible mediteran Styles I think is a style that everybody's familiar with um you don't see as much of it in Martin County but it does exist and it's also um a great commercial application uh for Mediterranean style and multiple stories so that's something you might find in some of your commercial districts uh Florida vernacula not as much that's not typically a commercial uh type of application Anglo Caribbean is maybe best described as you know structures that you might see in historic St Augustine often times with a ground floor that's masonry and the second floor that would be wood siding or some sort of siding change of materials um and then we go through and identify you know more modern applications of that throughout Florida the one on top being a house in Windsor as an example um and then you know identify the elements that make up this style Florida Bungalow another classic style that you see quite a bit of um often um recognizable by their deep front porches they're usually one or two stories maximum um often times with deep peers they'll have the windows uh are typically vertically proportioned as opposed to horizontally proportioned often times you'll see them grouped together like in the lower left photograph uh really a beautiful style um and you see it all throughout Florida you know Jessica mentioned the the resources guide we spent a considerable amount of time doing our homework um as Jessica said looking for what is the existing Styles and DNA of the different cras and we didn't find much Art Deco um there is some uh but not a lot but we thought it was worth putting out there because as an architectural style it's um it has very simply um modern applications it's stucko it's an opportunity to do more horizontal type of detailing or Windows Etc and it also applies very very well for single family multif family and Commercial applications so it's a very versatile style even though it doesn't exist um throughout all of the cras mid-century modern um setting aside the building that's up in the upper right hand corner uh you see the mid-century modern application a lot more uh prevalently than we expected or at least I expect Ed uh especially with single family applications um and it's really a versatile style it's it's a it's a style that's making a big comeback a lot of folks are buying mid-century homes and and really spending a lot of time lovingly re re refurbishing them um so that's a style that exists Mission it's the first cousin to the Mediterranean Revival often one and two stories maximum really appropriate for most oftenly used for single family and multif family structures but also as you can see in the lower left um Civic and religious structures as well the ranch style um one of the later Styles um often you know um characterize as sort of long and low slung usually on larger Lots uh because they are the their their their length is typically presented towards the street so those are typically wider Lots we go through and identify the components that make up those Main Street for we spent a lot of time looking at this because with with the beautiful main streets that you have in the cras and in Martin County if you were to go on and look at the buildings individually you know there's really not a particular style necessarily all of the time it's the assemblage of all of these buildings that makes them the streets so great um so what we did for Main Street vernaculars we talk about the buildings have a base a middle a top it's really more about proportions and the in increment of the storefront so that um you don't end up with buildings that are 200 ft long that look like buildings that are 200 fet long interestingly enough as a side note um what is it is it Oola and and Stewart Jessica's tired of hearing me tell the story but you know the main street in Stewart It's actually 700 feet long of continuous building front now for Martin County that's pretty intense but because it's made up of all of these different increments and sizes of buildings that look different the texture is there and the interest and so that's why it's really a desirable Place classical traditional it was already in the codes for some of the C we left them in there um you know there have been some applications of this style or variations of it but not as frequently as others really more for civic structures in town uh the Jensen Beach Community Center is an example of that and then the kind of catchall style the Contemporary style which um doesn't really have the same rigid rules that other styles do um but it's an opportunity for Architects and designers to be a lot more free and expansive with their ideas and we are seeing some more modern structures like this in Hope Sound as an example um and this is where I turn back over to you thank you thank you um no more pretty pictures we're back to charts um oh there there you go um and I just want if if I could add um the the distinction between the the required elements and then the encouraged elements for the vast majority of applicants they would only as as in uh indicated they would only be required to do the required elements and that the um the recommended elements would only be required um and it was it's an option of Select Three um in the core which is the the downtown areas where you would probably most likely again see have that architect on board or or a larger project possibly in those those main downtown areas of the of the cras so when we brought this to the the the nac's um we reminded the nac's what um what their current styles are in their ldrs in their code and we asked the question which which are appropriate going forward so I'm going to go through what those um what we heard from the nac's from Jensen Beach they wanted to add the Main Street vernacular um and maintain the styles that they already have in Rio um Rio did not have any architectural Styles included in their architectural standards today um so they recommended including all of the Styles so there's the maximum amount of flexibility for applicants in Old Palm City they recommended um including the main the the mid-century modern which was very prevalent in Old Palm City the ranch Mission and the Main Street vacular Hope Sound um wanted to add that additional amount of flexibility with the exception of the the ranch style Port solo also um they they had five of the existing Styles including our Deco um and they wanted to add the maximum amount of flexibility so they uh recommend they had voted to include all of those um styles that we've outlined all 11 and similar with Golden Gate they did not similar to Rio they did not have any architectural they don't have any architectural Styles today and they voted they recommended to include the Florida vacular the Mediterranean Revival englo Caribbean Bungalow mid-century modern Ranch Mission Main Street vernacular and the Contemporary um they chose to leave out Art Deco and classical traditional and um it was really important part of the process to include the nac's because we wanted to know what um what do their Community identity going forward um and this was an opportunity to get that feedback um they are in your package in the is of course the design standards the second portion of that is also some necessary changes that need to occur in article 12 so that if uh the design standards are adopted that they are consistent through throughout article 12 um there's three different types of changes that are being recommended and I'll go through each of those the first are just necessary coordination renumbering additional glossery uh terms the other piece of it was the frontage type coordination with the styles that we brought up at the beginning and then the third is a facade transparency um and that's a fancy way of saying please put Windows on your building um again this is a screenshot of what those um kind of changes are that are non-substantive they're really about numbering um and some updated language in the front of the code on how to use the code that includes architectural Styles and design standards the frontage types currently are controlled by the subdistricts which are your zoning codes again as part of updating the architectural standards uh we want to tie those into the frontage types again it's has everything to do with the fact that a bungalow for example would never have an arcade in front of it so we want to make sure that there's logical Nexus between what Frontage types are included for each of the Styles and this is an example of that again for the Florida vacular the porch and the stoop are the appropriate Styles uh for the Florida vernacular the other piece um and this came through again through through public comment and through the process um of working on the code is realizing that there were um there's not a minimum standard for facade transparency which is a percentage of the ground floor of a building that has Windows or doors that um are expressed on the primary facade um right now there's no standards for what would be um a live work building a cottage uh Cottage Court duplex or all yard building um there are requirements for commercial structures to have this facade transparency requirement and what we saw through the process is that there were some applicants coming through and and a reaction to um some built structures in neighborhoods that did not have any windows on their front doors and if I may just add to that um it was kind of surprising that we would actually have to add a facade transparency requirement to the ground floor of buildings that there were homes that were coming in with no windows facing the street um so that did come up as a concern and so that's why it's being addressed now and had never come up previously does that include faux Windows they would they would the requirement would be for um fedration actual Windows yes exactly not a faux window would not suffice the St window St shutters stco vents I love those um we're also recommending a a requirement for the the outbuilding the Boat Barn and the industrial buildings again um for both of those Styles it or building types it would be just 15% um we've done some analysis of small lots and that was a number that seemed um not just seemed but it we tested the number and it was very attainable for a small lot um a house on a small lot with a garage um and and um you know simple building um but having a window really um adds a lot to the neighborhood fabric um the CRA has done a fantastic job of making these codes as we've been working on them available to the public this is a landing page where all the material has been posted as it's been um updated through the process that there's anything else to add no I think um we appreciate your time this is a lot of information um but we're both here to try to answer any questions thank you gentlemen at what stage does a developer Builder new home builder have to identify what vernacular they're attempting to achieve because with some of the new materials that are available to builders in particular concrete it's an attempt to sort of emulate some old vernacular that that is you know evolved from a different material and sometimes it's successful and sometimes it's not and sometimes it's called something that it really isn't um I mean how important is it to identify a vernacular so you're saying the the style initially I mean as as it is today that an applicant when they submit should be including what what style they are intending to to express regarding the uh application of new materials and and and faux materials one of the things that we looked at in this in the Styles very carefully was you know should there be an option for stucco on some of these styles that a smooth stucco you know versus um you know let's say a imitation sighting you know and and we felt that on like a Florida vernacular style it would be appropriate to allow for a smooth stucco alternative to just having the um vertical siding you um emulated and the just to say as an architect who designed in this the attempt of all of this in general is you can't tell somebody how to design the out of their home per se and even this is you know putting some restrictions on this in general um you know it is the attempt to there's a lot of elements we have to add to the these CRA requirements um whether they're commercial and or residential or mixed use um to to do that so there's more information here which we've always had a lot of mixed information and we've been very restricted on what we can and can't do when it comes to architecture wise so do appreciate your time and do have a couple more questions and I don't want to interrupt no no no I I've asked my questions okay um can we go back to the um window opening requirements I didn't see and we we talked about this um in the workshop per se um I don't disagree not H not having any openings per se but what is there a percentage requirement that they have because most likely we have egress windows things like that at least at 3x5 or front door or whatever it is is there a restriction in here that says you have to have 20% penetration on your front of your house 15% is what's yeah above oh I see at the bottom yeah I know it's really small and so the the ground for these building types the live work Cottage Cottage duplex and all yard 15% at the ground level and 15% % above the ground level for the the next style um which are you know more utilitarian type buildings like the outbuilding and the industrial building we're recommending just the ground floor 15% what we were finding in Susan please um Chim man or correct me if I'm wrong but with the smaller lot say a 50 foot wide lot when you're trying to squeeze in a two-car garage do the side setbacks front door the thing that seemed to be losing out in that Battle For Real Estate was Windows sometimes that's why I'm asking the question cuz there's a challenge to that so we set that at and we like like Jessica said we tested it a few different ways and you know with one window and a 50ft wide lot and I'm not designing it in my head but you know you can achieve a 15% minimum uh transparency okay that's how you that's how you guys came up with that number yeah okay the other thing we had discussed is that the modern design was actually going to go for all all the districts so you guys took the input of the NAC versus the totality input so when we brought it to the nac's we we provided them that chart with everything checked and we said which which how do you feel about this which ones do you want to go forward with um and so we provided that that opportunity for input so what is the alternative to if somebody in Jensen Beach wants a modern home what's the alternative to that because they didn't check that box correct well so hold on let me finish that I know I'll introduce Susan here in a minute who's the presenter um okay so if she can't answer that then I'll let you answer that um the other thing is there is our Deco in um we actually have M dark home the glass home is our Deco it doesn't really matter um but it's not in the CRA um Paul Shilling this is like a nemesis you probably lose sleep over this and Susan the 21 inch height requirement is not in the CRA it is in the CRA it is in the CRA okay yes it's not being addressed tonight because it's been part of the approved Land Development regulations for three years okay understand that I'm I'm not here to argue per se uh and we know if somebody else was here starts with a d ends with a d all right so um that was something we discussed in in general and I would bring up and at the next Commission meeting if you any of you in general had to deal with a house that's being built next to you and you're an older home up and a at a certain elevation and they don't deal with the um and these CRA Lots as you mentioned they're smaller so they can't just dump on their neighbor and now they're um 21 in which is a magic number I guess P they pulled it out of the sky and made that 21 in then that all gets addressed what I feel like is not being handled I'm not not abiding to that because of course I am but the drainage onto other people and what is the damage it's doing to drain fields and things like that to other people's property is not being managed low impact design huh low impact design low impact design is that how you're calling it well I mean it's a it's a way through that okay I mean exfiltration and a bunch of other no I possib but what's not I'm saying being regulated as when the officials the staff of Martin County going out there is what being designed is being Incorporated I feel that's an inspection issue I don't disagree and that's what I'm bringing up okay so not bringing into Mr Braden into the situation here I'm sorry may I ask a question just to make sure that I get my notes correct your comment just now about the 21 in and the and the drainage and and shedding water on your neighbor yeah is that a critique of what's being proposed or that's a critique of what's happening in the field relative to inspections and that type of thing it's a um we can handle the 21 Ines in the structure itself and which we've been doing as we were required my my comment is the to the second part of what your answer is okay yes thank you yeah um my last thing that we had mentioned also in the discussion of the workshop I have the most questions tonight Jim I till Tom and she hadn't even presented yet so we're I know I'm getting it all out I think I got one left I think I got one meeting left all right here we go um we also had a discussion of the exemption of um religious facilities in churches um I heard her home okay so I'm not saying that they can design or do anything they want I think majority of what you've shown here in the chart can be met within those requirements so I don't see a real issue in that per se and I know we weren't going to put that in the chart was that some did that land somewhere else in in that code so there was there was as you mentioned with when we met with the a a there robust discussion about that and robust that's um I think that there as much as there's was a concern about fitting into the styles that are prescribed today what's on the code today is much more restrictive um there was again every single one of the cras added more Styles so there's a lot more options for civic and religious structures to meet one of those Styles okay that that's where I was getting at and Dana going back to your question with the um the the 21 Ines and not adding money or trying to add money to it any Builder will tell you a stem wall which a lot of times we have to be on a stem wall when our small smaller lot that does come into play in that now as again we're required to meet those requirement as you said been in there for three years so not challenging that but building a stem wall versus slab on grade and being from Tennessee frostline being 18 inches down slab on gr is new to new but anyway just so you know that that is something that does add to that requirement of of our Builders they've not challenged that they've not been as vocal as our Architects have been and I'm not challenging anything that you guys are doing in general these are things and discussions I'm bringing up with you as my knowledge and um working in this County for 20 20 years or so um without further Ado does the board have any other questions I do well go ahead Jim no no you want to like arm wrestle uh no no no not tonight come on it's my last meeting so what happens if I'm in Golden Gate and I want to build an art deco house you're telling me I can't do it so Tom uh Susan cores community development director for the record um right now all the C that have particular Styles would have to utilize uh alternative compliance if they wanted to do something outside the code which one did you say so that would still exist as of right now that would that's what they would have to do that's what you would have to do so when you say alternate comp compliance that sounds like something they do in prison what does that exactly mean and how do you do it I don't know anything about prison but I'll take the word for that Sean Shank Redemption here we go all right I can say that but I can't say quad it's another way of saying one a waiver a zoning waiver I don't know where do I get a z where do I get a waiver okay wait wait all right time out sorry we like thre a monkey in a wrench here all right so to formerly introduce um Miss Susan she um is our presenter today so any further questions um for the applicant we'll move from staff well kind of Staff but yeah who you are but to miss Susan any other directing questions but as a totality group let's go ahead and answer some questions so where do I get a waiver for if I want Elise Elder Deputy County attorney it's not a waiver but it's similar to a variance so there's a process that you have to follow and if there's a Code provision within the CRA that for some reason you can't you go through a prop process to get alleviation from that similar to a variance it's not a variance but it's it's a kind of a similar um Theory how long does that take um well right now it's done through the growth Management Department um and the growth manager growth management director does that but um if it goes to the board then the board would approve that during their um review of the project thank you let me just finish please question and then anybody else do what they that way I can make I get my answers so if it goes to growth management yes sir and you and how many how many do you usually see I would Paul Schilling growth management director for the record so it varies um and and that number can be a couple of month to five a month maybe at the most um and how long does it take you like it takes my staff um it generally comes up as part of a review of a building permit or Andor a project so it can be it can accompany a development order which of course takes a a uh 3 to four months on average uh for a minor development maybe a little bit more depending on the quality of the submitt now if I were in a non CRA do I have to follow any particular Styles you sorry I was going to answer but staff can answer there are no Styles within the zoning code there are development standards of course which which uh which um require setbacks Building height open space building usual yes but if I want to build a colonial home and and there's no other colonial homes in the neighborhood but I have a lot and I want to build a colonial home and I follow all the standards I can do that yes sir so why is it different in a CRA anybody can answer not you Nikki I'll start not answering anymore I'm out um as Jessica presented in the beginning you know we went through 2 and 1/2 years of updating the CRA land development regulations creating article 12 and chapter 14 18 excuse me um and however at the time that we were doing that we were really focusing on the multi-layers of zoning and different zoning classifications and uses etc etc and we chose to not try to address the architecture standards that already exist in the code so this attempt is to clarify those make them more consistent and make them um update them so that they're more usable um the as I said earlier as I mentioned earlier the CRA areas are the closest that you really have to what would be historic districts if you had historic districts so there is a historic presence there of different styles of architecture so we tried to build off that um we've also spent a lot of time in the na AC's and the cras over the years years um what we are showing you this evening it's as Miss Norton mentioned when we met with the AIA their thought was well we should just allow all styles in all of the CRA why would you limit them at all like that's a good point when we met with the CRA yeah NC's excuse me um we presented that and there was some strong discussion between many of the members that they wanted to not have this style or that style so what we're Pres presenting to you tonight is a reflection of those meetings with the nac's now as a board I think you could say well you know we think that you really need to be as flexible as possible and overturn that or make that as your recommendation but the cra's to my knowledge are the only area in the Martin in Martin County where you do have these architectural Styles because they exist and so there's a desire from those communities to try to have consistency going forward these are it's a private lot with a private owner and I don't I understand why we have building standards I don't understand why we need style standards and of course I'm not going to overthrow anything or say we're not going to do this but this is sort of overregulation well the pattern books existed a long time ago I mean they were they were the original attempts by the C to identify themselves as unique and it's Redevelopment not velopment great but there was overregulation then and this is also overregulation and if I if you own a home or a lot in a neighborhood and you comply cuz you you should have setbacks and I even agree you should have so so many windows because no that makes some sort of sense it doesn't make sense to when you tell me I can't have an art deco home in Golden Gate just doesn't make sense if I owned a lot and if I want to build an ARA home so this is to to in my opinion overregulation that's all if I may um just briefly um we didn't know what to expect when we went to each of the nacc's you know we had no idea if there was going to be any support for for these or not um understanding that you know if you don't replace what's there today with new stuff you got to get rid of the stuff you know cuz it's not working so this was an attempt to try to freshen this whole program up um I and and Jess and I went to different meetings but I did did not experience any push back against this approach it was really a more nuanced discussion about do we want this style or not that style and you can always I think in NAC or the board could always come back and add or take them away um you know this was meant to be a framework for for you know provide raising the bar a little bit architecturally in the CRA areas did did anybody even present it like Tom saying you can build whatever cuz I agree with Tom if you own a lot sure you ought to be able to build whatever kind of house you want so that was to me to me that's what makes a neighborhood that you've got all these different kind of homes and and if you start putting restrictions on them you're you're locking yourself down you know Jens beach has got 1 2 3 4 5 six they only got six different styles of home you know come on well Jensen Beach today only has five so that was they were actually expanding um but yeah um they won so so so for that con for context you know Jensen Beach if today if we weren't here today if Jensen Beach somebody owned a property and they wanted to build a mission style home in the CRA in the CRA in Jensen Beach just the CRA which is a small boundary of Jensen Beach um they would have to go through that variance process so um as you can see for most of the nac's they they agreed to a large extent about expanding the amount of options to Define their neighborhood and Rio that was a very robust conversation about um wanting to have that flexibility and so that's why they had made a motion at that meeting to include all the Styles and I get all that but you've got a small group of people to the NAC just telling somebody else that might own that lot since 1940 and and he hasn't built on it yet now he wants to built on it cuz his grandfather left it to him and you're going to tell him no you you might be able to build that but you've got to go through this variance process which nobody here so far has been able to answer how long that takes and variances always take longer than what anybody on staff will tell you and I'm not knocking y'all because I know you're busy but it always takes a whole lot longer I'll try to leave some of your concern so as far as uh alternative compliance is the term there's an application process and there's requirements of that but the essence of that application is there is a uniqueness or certain site site constraints whereas I I I'm an able to accomplish meeting one criteria but maybe I can add and I'll just give you an example maybe I add some more Landscaping to offset the fact that I'm I'm having a a a larger front wall or whatever the case is that's just but that's but that's only that that's a a process that's generally accomplished within a month at the most those kind of I'm not talking about standards I'm talking about go Golden Gate and and I'll use your example I want to build a colonial in Golden Gate yes sir it's not on that list Colonial is not on the list anywhere what not on the list anywhere so well they said it was classic traditional that was really really the point is well you can call it anything you want I mean to build because it's supposed to be for safety and it's and this has got nothing to do with the safety of the homeowner or the neighborhood so to me this is so I'd like to comment on your both of your points HOA and you bought you knew okay I'm in an HOA they're going to have this stuff but I'm not in an H in an HOA I'm in a a CRA I should be able to build what I want so in our St statute um just to give you like kind of a broad view in our statute it says what we are to be doing as a CRA is mitigating slum and blight we're also supposed to be increasing sustainability of our neighborhoods and raising that um design standard if you will and it actually says that in chapter 18 in the comp plan that we that we are to look at building design and and deal with that so that's what we're trying to do that's my first point my second point is like is like Jessica and Dana said we have standards in there now they are weak and restrictive at the same time it's kind of an odd coupling people have a hard time Architects have a hard time Builders have a hard time trying to build anything that remotely would would be in the requirements so what we've done is we've looked at all of those things and talked to not just the people on the NAC The Architects the builders we've talked to Property Owners we've talked to the nac's the CRA board and we've gotten kind of two responses if you will one is that the C want this because they want to look different they want to be unique so that's why some of them and Nikki we presented every everything to them as The Architects asked us to they were the ones that trimmed it down and all of these nac's have people that come Port Salo was the only one that didn't because we had to change their date because of the hurricane um they want to choose what they want they want to know what their neighborhood's going to look like and all of that as Dana said and showed is rooted in what's historically there there are no Colonials in Florida I mean I I I don't think I've ever seen one in in South Flor philosophically I'm not finished philosophically minut wait a you said there are no Colonials but the problem is philosophically if I want a colonial why am I not allowed to build it and we we don't have to keep arguing about it no no no I I no not arguing I'm just stating a fact and saying that we've expanded the list so that really it's kind of difficult not to be able to fit into that list somewhere and in each of the requirements we've also expanded those so you and that's a lot of the input that we got from Architects and Builders well we need to have more roof options because of affordability because of insurance costs so we did we expanded the roof options we expanded the slopes the materials we talked about that earlier we expanded the list of materials that you can use again so that you have more choice and building in a little bit of affordability uh with that so I think that it would be difficult for folks not to be able to find something Jensen's a a bad example um I'll I'll use because Jensen has about two blocks of residential homes so it's probably not a great example so let's go with Port serno you know the first time we presented the ideas at Port sleno this is what we heard from everyone the second time we came in and presented well they kind of liked some of the Styles okay whatever and then Jess and Dana came in with our finished more finished project product um and they took everything they said yeah that's exactly what we needed so I think that we're making it better and I think that um people are not going to be using the alternative compliance method in this for Styles as much as maybe they have in the past because it's been really hard to follow you said earlier when you first start talking about the difficulty of building there we own we owned a piece in a CRA and went through it I don't know P or a year or more well finally I said we said the hell with this and we sold it it just got to be too too much of a of a pain actually and I'm not stupid I mean I don't think of course not he's a gator so it's okay I don't know the particulars uh Mr Hartman so it's hard for Me toal ge you would have done it to me but I'm I'm like you know C are a little bit more difficult just by their very being I mean you're looking at infill Lots you're looking at things that are not standard if you will here all night Ian I I'm um I'll move that we s this wait wait wait we've got more okay uh Susan are you done with your presentation I am okay um we do have public comment uh Miss priest may I invite you to the podium please good evening Julie priest 46e resident of district one as a matter of fact and my dad was a general contractor did build his favorite was Colonials in Dade County um that's Florida is it it's that a good style to pick there Tom my husband happens to be a general contractor too I'm here tonight let me start from what I really came first and then Chang my hat uh I'm here to represent the riy Civic club uh fortunately we're celebrating our 75th anniversary in a few months we're very pleased with that when Martin County is celebrating their Centennial and they have sent me here to tell you that they fully support what is being proposed here tonight secondly uh if I take off that hat uh I would would like to tell you a little bit uh about RI probably has some tie in with the riio Civic Club work too uh we have had and so has we were talking about Palm City a lot of our CRA areas of course as you know are the older areas the drainage for those areas has always been a problem in many of those areas because they are our oldest areas and it just there just wasn't good planning back then so the I came here with a map as a matter of fact of the storm water surge zones uh Rio H 3/4s of Rio happens to be in the storm water surge uh area of Zone e so if we get a surge of 16 ft R for the most part is going to be gone but the point is the 21 in steps that's a that's already been decided now let me move on to the next step because that involves resiliency which we should plan for the future we know waters are rising so that was even before we were talking about resiliency that we came up with this because it fit in with the standard traditional design to raise the home and originally because you know I do historic work Miss Norton uh originally homes were built up so that you could have air flow underneath the home now we're building them and as my husband and I have already built on a 47t lot as a matter of fact and we worked with Mr Schilling in Rio uh in the oldest neighborhood called Rio St Lucy uh subdivided uh in 1925 a home 21 in high on a 47t wide lot there was no room obviously for garage so we just had to put a a a a drive area in the back we did put in a retention area also in the back and swailes and that takes care of the water because we all have to hold our own water on our Lots that's just been common throughout Martin County forever the regul um we also built other homes in Rio and we've done the same thing 21 inches high and we have used by the way we talked about the siding we have used stucco siding to look like Hardy Board or to look like real wood and that benefits the the uh owners that bought these homes from us because they won't have problems with those homes in the future so we have Incorporated without oh do I need to go time please tell me it was a colonial that you built we built we built the cottage essentially Florida vernacular look that fit in with the codes that are already in existence I was only joking I'm sorry yeah so if you have questions my husband and I have done it uh and we fully support this but again we're from Rio 11 choices not Colonial it wasn't brought to us but we wouldn't have stopped it to be frank we're very generous in Rio with regard to is pulling the Rope all right I'll make a motion to approve just pulling the Rope on us so um I just um additional comment here as obviously dealing with this this is a lot more open than what we have dealt with in the past so I do appreciate the effort in that um the 21 in of and I get the Water Rising and things like that and I've never not a bot about that it's my problem with the regulation of when it's being built um and and that has been a problem and I say that only because my dad had a neighbor build right next to him and I said you got to say something your drain Fields going to have to be replaced within a year and sure as anything so he did not call the building inspector they didn't catch it they didn't do anything about it so that's I don't disagree with the 21 and I haven't so I just that's my issue with that as for the Styles it is what it is alternative compliance I have applied for it many many times as the staff has been aware of commercial and residentially wise I'm not afraid to be the bad guy in that and you just have to present the elements and and they have in my opinion provide a lot of those elements that we did not have before and the choices we have had before um so I don't think it's impossible for you to build one of those in those areas but if you've been through the process and you've sent through you have sat through a prea then you would know what that looks like in in general and that's my two cents and and I'm all in favor of more windows you want to bump that to 304 I have no V we're talking to the we're talking to the window guy now okay so we have a I'm sorry a motion in a second yes okay all in favor I I thank you very much staff for your time Everything Julie Susan I know and Dana and Jessica you put a lot of time into this Paul not so much but you know thank you very much you are so going to miss me I'm just going to say I was just going to say that we have we have at least one application for the 5th of December nothing for the we're not doing one for the end of November right no December 5th I I can't give you an answer I've been asked to submit a res oh sorry adjourned um I've been asked to give a resume but I'm pretty sure that just