##VIDEO ID:zvNnls76fUY## good evening this is the Monday October 7th 2024 Workshop meeting the township committee the notice requirements provided for in the open public meetings act have been satisfied notice of this meeting was properly given by transmission to the Asbury Park Press and the two River times and by posting at the Middletown Township Municipal Building and filing with the Township Clerk all on January 11th 2024 committee man Clark here committee woman Katz here committee Men set brino here Deputy Mayor hiel here mayor Perry here please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all at this time I'd like to ask for a moment of silence to honor the troops serving worldwide defending our constitutions freedoms and way of life first item on tonight's agenda we have presentations and proclamations at this time we're going to do a presentation recognizing the Middletown little league intermediate Allstars I'd like to invite division coordinator Tim stclair coaches Michael MAA Robert shapson and John machio and the players to join Maya Perry at the front of the room we go oh yeah we got to do with back all right uh let's give it up for our champion I keep saying it meeting after meeting after meeting we are joined at each meeting by a different group of athletes a different group of students that are putting Middletown not on the map they are putting them on the winning track and a map of Distinction and honor and our Allstars here deserve a lot of credit for uh this is the second meeting in a row now we've had Champs come in uh and this is our Middletown little league intermediate All Stars uh they're all stars but more importantly they are champions District 19 and section three little league champions let's give it up for the guys and I'll tell you it is it is absolutely a perfect time to talk and honor Baseball champs as we are uh what do the Yanks play at 7 o' 708 uh they're on right now yeah 75 yeah uh so you're like he's like yeah uh H judges do up third uh but uh once again you know we're we're we're sitting here at Town Hall and I talk I talk about it often is the will and determination of of a group of young people is the most incredible force of nature because when you determined to do something determined to be a champion it's not just a a mental thing it is a determination a group effort where you're all working together every single pitch every single ground ball every fly out every run that crosses that board is yet another part of the puzzle another part of the process in becoming a champion that's what you all have demonstrated and not only have you done that but you have represented Middletown and and again as I said earlier put us on the map not just in terms of baseball success but in terms of Championship success so you all deserve a lot of credit the one thing I want you to do though because you get the banners and you get the certificates and you get all that good stuff I want you to turn and thank your coaches and I want to turn and thank your parents because they deserve a lot of the credit for your success as well now now all right now look out at your parents all right okay thank there you go priz for for for most outspoken here um definitely best dressed May I'll tell you all slacks the rules were in were were on for this meeting I love it um coaches anybody want to talk about the team real fast I'll give you a quick um thank you for recognizing them for their accomplishments um we've had the honor of coaching them for the past four years uh in 2021 they made the finals the district finals against Freehold uh was tough loss for them they came back last year made the finals against linkof made another tough loss um they all came back for 20124 with the goal of winning and bringing home the district Banner uh they beat l craw 3-1 he freeold five nothing and then freeold again in the final at home um to bring it home and then they headed off to Princeton three straight there Jackson Hamilton Hamilton came back home uh lost their first game South viand who eventually state champs uh that game could have gone differently Dylan I think you're still safe in the third inning that's the difference in the game really for us but then went on eliminated Bergenfield eliminated Nutley eventually lost to South barland again but finished second in States um you know we appreciate you you know acknowledging what they did and thank you for having well we appreciate Middletown appreciates what you do coaches what you do parents and we certainly appreciate very much what you're doing as athletes as as students and as young leaders in our town so let's give it up for our champion now okay stood next to the tallest guy here so now by yourself you're you are G to have to turn to your coaches and say thank you there you go all right uh let's uh get in here with pick with the uh with the banner real fast we have certificates for everybody uh and it says this the township Middletown congratulates Middletown little league intermediate Allstars on winning the 2024 New Jersey district 19 and section 3 Little League championships over the summer you and your teammates completed an impressive season having won two different championships and ranking in second place in the store state tournament as a result you were also able to reap the benefits of your dedication teamwork and desire to succeed we are proud of you Middletown is proud of you and the accomplishments that you have have achieved this year keep up the Fantastic work all right so congratulations guys let's get a picture with this banner and let's celebrate this Championship all right 738 first pitch Yankees 7:38 all right right ready you guys have chance for something oh your strickly business all right one two three great congratulations now if you can hold that pose for your parents right nowe is good I used you the coaches and I are here are running out oxygen forck I know these young guys don't have to worry about it all right let's give our chance to Round of Applause you got it guys congratulations keep up the good work all right congratulations congrat you came in late but you get the first certificate there you go go congratulations all right congratulations now now on the ground I was impressed I thought they were staying the only relief is there's no one left in the room there's no un happy B FL there's a water here may per if you want you want water Jim and Don deserve a round of applause yeah yeah okay all right you ready to continue okay next all right Karen next we have two proclamations for the record the first Proclamation recognizing October 2024 is breast cancer Awareness Month in the township of Middletown and Proclamation recognizing October 2024 as substance use prevention month in the township of Middletown excuse me uh next item on tonight's agenda we have public hearing of proposed ordinances first ordinance 2024-25 and block 276 lot 48 pursuant to the raran bay and Sandy Hook Bay hurricane and storm damage reduction project Port Mammoth New Jersey Phase 2 contract one motion uh any member of the public wishing to speak on public ordance number 202 24-34 32 Don I'm assuming Jim's got nothing to say seeing no member of the public stepping forward move to close the public portion and approve second committeeman Clark yes committee woman Katz yes committee man SED brino yes Deputy Mayor hiel yes mayor Perry yes motion carries to approve this ordinance on second and final reading the next ordinance for public hearing we have 2024 3433 an ordinance authorizing and accepting deed of open space easan from County of Mammoth for Normandy Park block 901 lot 3 any member of the public wishing to speak on public ordinance number 2024 D 3433 Don saying no uh seeing no member of the public stepping forward move to close public portion and approve second committeeman Clark yes committee woman Katz yes committee men s bro yes Deputy Mayor hbel yes mayor Perry yes motion carries to approve this ordinance on second and final reading next item on the agenda we have the introduction of proposed ordinances to 20 224-3131 100,000 for such purposes motion to introduce second committee M Clark yes committee woman Katz yes committee men s brino yes Deputy Mayor hio yes mayor Perry yes motion carries to adopt this ordinance on first reading public hearing to be held on October 21st 2024 next we have ordinance 20243 435 an ordinance authorizing entry of purchase and sale agreement with the Richard J stavola Family Trust for the acquisition of block 1030 lot 7 and 10 127 hubber Avenue for open space preservation purposes motion to introduce second committeeman Clark yes committee woman Katz yes committee man sen brino recuse Deputy Mayor hbel yes mayor Perry yes motion carries to pass this ordinance on first reading with public hearing to be held on October 21st 2024 with recusal noted next item we have I'm going to ask the committee to adopt a consent agenda which would include resolutions 24- 265 through 24- 276 motion to approve a cons consent agenda second committee Clark yes committee woman cratz yes committee men s brino yes Deputy Mayor hbel yes mayor Perry yes motion carries to approve consent agenda next item we have are discussion items uh first item we have is amending the preschool and Camp fees actually you have two two items listed here they're they're really the same thing um but uh you were given a report and Janet Del sent a report we do this every two years or so we update our camp fees and preschool fees it's pretty detailed as to what they're they're not their nominal increases um uh so we probably will have an ordinance ready for you on the 21st um if between now and then anyone has any questions about any of that or if you do tonight um sir certainly can answer them um but we we again we typically do this every other year to keep our fees current okay any questions for Tony okay number 23 so the next is storm water control salt and tree ordinance amendments yeah so this these are a little bit more complicated but um and I I G gave these to you guys last week um there are three ordinances that were required to now have in place by the state of New Jersey uh having to do with overall uh our our storm waterer management compliance um and this is every Municipal almost every municipality in New Jersey has to um adopt these ordinances and have them in place um two of the three are fairly routine uh one is a new requirement that um regulates how private businesses and homeowners store Salt so you can imagine many private businesses in town typically they're landscapers some of the pool companies um they in their Winters when they're not doing other work they they plow snow so many of them store uh salt uh many of them have contracts with shopping centers and big big parking lots um and that's how they get plowed so quickly so they store Salt now there are specific rules about how to store that salt um we as the township have always had to store it in a protected sort of uh way but there were never any rules about private businesses and I think most probably do it properly uh at least to some degree uh now they're required to be covered and closed uh so that they can't blow in the wind uh they can't wash away in Rain um they they can't be within 50 feet of any kind of body of water um stream or creek or anything like that so there's specific rules um and this this also does apply to homeowners so if you happen to be one of those rare homeowners who stores Salt probably not a lot of them but this this would actually apply to you so the issue becomes for the township is we have some level of enforcement over this so we have to and all of these things add to the workload of the township um with no uh reimbursement for the cost that we incur um this one will not be that significant we would just have to go buy the facilities that store Salt and make sure they're doing it in conformance with the uh the new law uh the second one uh has to do with storm water management this is a lot more um detail and in the weeds this has to do with the how new developments are designed by Design Engineers um and as some of you know who who deal with development storm water management is a big part of any uh project design uh so the state has adopted some some broader standards uh that all municipalities have to um abide by so most of these you'll you'll see become effective uh with applications before the planning and zoning boards uh the applicants will be required to design their plans in accordance with the new regulations and likewise the board Engineers will be required to review and make sure that they're being designed in compliance with the new regulations so it's a lot of detail typically day-to-day wouldn't affect us unless we were doing a major Park renovation or Park Redevelopment for example um it would have applied to this building obviously if we had built it after these regulations were into effect um and they just are stricter storm water management rules and the primary idea is to enhance and and promote water quality control so that storm water is treated um more so than it is now before it gets into the streams and groundwater uh so again nothing too too controversial um and not too much of a burden uh on us because we already review plans for those purposes anyway it's just slightly enhanced standards the third one is a lot more complicated uh the state requires uh that all municipalities have a tree protection ordinance if you will now in you know in New Jersey lot there are municipalities that have had tree regulations in place for some time um they typically tend to be small communities that have you know a defined um areas of Street trees and small amounts of open space um but now this is really getting into um you know essentially what you do in your backyard I was going to ask you that this extends to private property right this is AB it absolutely applies to private property um and that's where it becomes difficult and this is this is the ordinance that has given us the most I if you noticed in the the one I sent you it said version 10 this is the our 10th version of this um and you know could it be different probably um but essentially what it does it says every tree removal has to be essentially uh requested by the to the township so somebody has to contact us to say they're going to remove a tree so uh the way it works is there are certain uh things that are going to be exempt uh for example if you have a damaged tree was hit by lightning or it's got a major limb falling off of it but you have to let us know because we now have to send somebody there to essentially certify or agree that the tree is needs to be removed it also if a tree is diseased if a tree if a tree is an invasive species like Atlantis um uh trees uh they're they're exempt and certain other species um would be exempt but for the most part if you want to remove trees from from your property you have to notify the township um now what this the law does allow and what we've included in this ordinance is uh for single family homeowners you can remove up to three per year without having to replace the whole idea here is that they want trees that are removed to be replaced with an with another tree so if you move remove five trees on your property you're supposed to plant five trees on your property um the issue with that of course is there are some properties that are small and really would find it difficult to find room to plant five trees on their property what the law requires now is that you pay an inl fee uh instead of planting that tree on your property you have to pay fee to the township the township will have to put that money into and and this is much the Colleen shagrin that this is a rare case where they let us do a trust a trust account she's very strict with trust accounts believe me I've tried um but this is one area where you have a trust account so this money will go into this account um and to be used for two purposes one is to pay for our cost in administering this program which will will be substantial and I'll get to those in a minute um but the other is we can create a fund of our own that if we want to do a tree planting project somewhere we would have the funds to do it which is fine which this this whole thing just makes me laugh by the way because we we sit here and we are forced to deal with the high density housing quotas that were given by the state of New Jersey and at no point in time do they ever want you to redevelop a property they just want you to demolish and and take down a undeveloped piece of property where there is wetlands and species living and and trees that have been there for hundreds of years and that is okay and yet now where there is development or or a house sitting on a property we now have to go and pay for and hire someone that's going to go out there and inspect and be certified as to whether or not somebody can take down a tree that's right one one of the requirements here is that we the these decisions have to get made made by a certified tree expert and um that can be somebody who's there there a specific certification in New Jersey as a certified tree expert CTE uh another acronym um or a a a certified Arborist um so we are going to have to contract with I think at least two maybe three uh arborists and this is probably going to be on our next round of professional appointments that we're going to have to be seeking it we're going to have to have these arborists available to go out and make these calls because uh a homeowner can call and say well yeah I have this tree and it um you know I really want to take it down um and you know what it's it's diseased anyway uh and I don't want to have to rep do a replacement or pay a fee we now have to send somebody to that property to determine that they're telling us the truth um States statute currently M well it's a it's a it's a state law that because in typical New Jersey fashion they pass the buck to the municipalities to implement their law so we are the ones that have to there's parameters that we have to follow but then there is leeway that that is provided to us in terms of defining the um width of a tree and so on and so forth as to what we would in in terms of what we would require and yet it's zero dollars coming to the municipalities to implement this program yeah one of the things we we're gonna have to so the taxpayers of I'm sorry Tony so the taxpayers of Middletown are now going to have to pay for what 40 members of the Senate said what 80 members of the general assembly said and what the governor said should be taxpayers being tax dollars being spent from the municipality side yeah it's um it really you know my my viewpoint it's a it's a Big Time overreach for for government but that's you know that's neither here nor there we have to deal with the handw delt and um so so yes we we will have to send a certified Arborist um to properties to verify um that that what someone's asking us is accurate uh so so literally and and even the fact that we exempt the first three trees so let's say you want to take three down three trees down in your property you don't have to do anything replace or pay for those trees but we have to have call we have to be able to keep keep a record right we have to know now whether you've take so we we're going to be hiring a deputy uh zoning officer part-time position we all these just think about Middletown the size of it how many trees must come down in a year um we're gonna have a person who's pretty much going to be dedicated to taking in these applications keeping track of all the properties and who are remov trees it it gets to be absurd the more and more you think about it um so we're trying to do it in this least impactful way as possible but we do have to do this um so not only is that person going to have to process all of the people that are doing it the right way but they're also going to have to deal with all the nuisance responses right when you have a neighbor who says oh my neighbor cut down three trees and I don't think they got permission they're going to have to go out there and deal with that absolutely that is a big part of this I I it may be the the hidden nightmare in all of this is that you could get complainers who can now go crazy like I said every time you hear chainsaw startup they're going to get in their car and try to figure out where it is you know there are people who who think that way um so we have to respond to those it's it's exactly it's not even it's not even just the applications to do it it's now the code enforcement that's now going to be required to go out there because I heard a chainsaw going and I want to know whether or not they got and now Karen and Heidi and the clerk's office is going to have to get all the Oprah requests for all of those things that's going to have to go to Nelson and then Brian's going to have to review them so that we can go back and say yep here's the permit that they took out so we we gotta have tree police that's exactly what you're now you're now the captain giv out the CTE you don't have to give them the cars with lights and siren that might be next uh they might have to wear armor uh in some cases they're they're not going to be popular people I'm telling you that that they're they're not that's why I want to get Consultants to do it I don't want to hire anybody to do it I don't want to subject any employee to that but anyway it's going to be a burden um you know we'll have to see how it goes I think there's going to be a lot of push back there is already a lot of push back from municipalities throughout the state like I said a lot of small towns have always done this and it's not a big deal for them it's a little stricter now because now you got to pay blue that was never really a law now it is um but for towns of a substantial size like middl towns and Cherry Hills and Hamilton and places like that it's it's an almost impossible burden to to take on um and not have it cost you a fortune and by the way I just want to say this too you when when we asked our landscape architect Vic Vic wimes to give us a cost estimate as to what he thought each price should be based on the current market for the certain size trees you take down this you have to replace it with this and that's if you don't this is what you're going to have to pay to the town yeah like you cut down a tree and now you're on your fourth tree okay like you now have to pay if you take down a tree that is let's say 24 Ines wide you have to pay what was it $1800 or something like that T it's substantial yeah to pay to the town to do that so at a time when people are paying more at the supermarket more at all these different uh you in order to take down a tree because you want to put a playground in your uh in your backyard you want to put a pool in your backyard whatever the case may be you are now going to have to pay pay this Li of of a replanting of a tree yeah so at what point do we sit here and say that we're fighting to make it more affordable when if you have to replant a tree or make a payment with it that $1,800 for a 24 inch tree is is appropriate I just it's crazy I you know with with this will have a big impact on uh new development for sure and rightly so you know we should collect fees from from those those types of developments but think about that though even even that point you know the the state all we hear now on the news and the newspapers is housing affordability all 50 states are dealing with that issue this is only going to raise the C price of housing in general anyway because the cost of development is going to be more and I mean Kevin you know know this is more than most and and Rick you do development I mean you know that this is going to get f factored into the price of houses I mean d has long had a some some type of tree save requirement but that was on their properties was right and never did extend to private property no right that was up to each municipality to whether or not they wanted to to get that designation and have a shade tree commission and things of that nature where you were going and and to Tony's point that was always in the small towns that you know you could handle that type of constant application process but when you're talking about a 42 square mile town with lots of trees yeah uh and and not only that but let's just also talk about now you've added another layer of government to putting on an addition or a pool or and and and how many calls do all of you field from people and and say hey I'm submitting this this application just you know I I'm being told by my Builder that it's been in for 12 weeks and nobody has said a word in reality it's been in for 3 hours um because and how B how more backed up is the construction going to get because of that because now you're waiting on another permit to do everything yeah because now you know for example a good example is after every storm uh we get a lot of calls from people saying you know I have this tree and there's a limb kind of hanging over the roof of my house I really think it's kind of risky to have it there I'd like to remove the tree well now someone has to go out and say well you know what it's not really at risk right of coming down what do process do you have whose risk you know whose level of risk you trumps who let me ask you a follow question with regard to that if you your homeowner you say hey I want to take this tree down we send out a CTE and he says you know no it's not going to come down at FS the next week in next month and next day do we have liability for that well I mean that's a good Brian question but I mean that's why they're certified you you should be getting a pretty accurate answer regardless of whether weable we're going to get sued yeah we're going to get sued no matter what Tony what about the what about the follow-up process for the planted tree right so somebody plants their tree instead of paying $1,800 yeah and it the tree doesn't make it after six months oh well you that's a great question because the answer is we have to go and make sure the tree survives right so that so our so our tree police that are already taking the nuisance phone calls and going out and doing their normal job now have to go out and do a yearly inspection on the tree and what's the statue of limitations on that inspection before it's considered a viable it may be one or two years that it has to survive uh and I think beyond that we don't have to respond to it I mean inspect it but uh yeah it's just another another part of this it's it's really really burdensome on the town it's burdensome on residents I think uh because you're really getting into their business I think um you know it's it's a little different if it's in Wetlands okay that that might be different there rules rul about that um but when you're starting to make a call as to whether or not a tree is hazardous or not that really can get kind of subjective U depends on depending on your sensitivity towards hazards and um so like like I said that th those people who have to go out and do those inspections make those calls they're not going to be popular they're either not going to be popular with the homeowner or the neighbor who called and had them sent there somebody's going to be annoyed at whatever decision they they make so anyway unfortunately we do have to adopt this this is what I've given you is is a draft we have to work a lot with Brian to to tighten these up a little bit be because this is these were Model ordinances that the state provided that we've made a lot of changes to especially the tree one so we'll we'll be working with Brian over the next couple weeks and hopefully we'll be able to introduce on the um on the 21st but I just wanted to let you know it's coming it's it's uh I I think it's a bad idea I think it's a bad policy for the state to be doing something like this to this to this extent you want protect trees great I think you we should do that but this is Draconian in in a lot of ways in my viewpoint uh but you know we we have to do it we're trying to do it in as least impactful way as possible for homeowners we started at 24 inch trees you could start at a 6inch tree if under the state model um ordinance that would be absolutely absurd in Middletown number of 6 inch diameter trees that we would have so we're starting it at 24 in so a little bit more substantial tree uh so hopefully that'll somewhat lessen uh the burden but again given our size and amount of vegetation we have it's going to be a lot any any trees less than 24 inches in caliper size you don't have to are not regulated ex The Only Exception is Street trees as you know when being on the planning board we require Street trees for developments those are those are different I think those are three inches uh then they're regulated because they were required by a local body so we want to make sure that those are maintained but yeah nor trees on your own property we're starting at 24 in who's responsible for measuring and tagging like let's just say it's a large swath of property a big development they are now they're they're going to be required to identify every tree I believe over six inches but the ones over 24 Ines uh they will have to pay a fee for uh to to remove unless they can replace them on site and again when you're replace on site you're not replacing with a 24 inch tray you're replacing it with a two three inch tree uh so it's going to take you know 15 years tree is you know meaningful um but some of those things when they're before the planning board I think the planning boards have a little bit more discretion to negotiate things with developers and that sort of thing so that's probably not too going to be too big of a burden but will it add to the price of housing when you're building Housing Development absolutely it will it will definitely do that just a quick question Sal storage that uh that requires a permit as well it doesn't require a permit it just requires that they follow these standards so we're gonna once we have this ordinance in place we're going to send this out to all the businesses that we know that have storage on assault storage on site and say hey these are some new rules that you have to uh comply with and then who's going to inspect again we will have to you know monitor them like once a year drive by make sure they're doing the things properly or if we get a complaint um maybe more often than that I I don't think that one's going to be too bad I think most businesses will find away they it can be covered with a tarp with with as long as you have weight on it so it can't blow off of it so it's not too too difficult I would imagine most places already do something along these lines so I don't think it'll be too too bad for businesses but the the tree one is going to be the biggest impact on our staffing we we literally have to hire people that we've never had before just to implement this and that to me that's something the state ought to be paying for okay any other questions fory next week if there's any further questions just you know call me or email me and I'll and then when we go over with Brian we'll try to address them any other questions for Tony okay Township committee comments commune Clark good thank you Cino no comments mayor thank you woman Katz none for me mayor thank you Deputy Mayor same for me all right bunch of Yankee fans here yes uh and I can tell you uh the it is the bottom of the first so no score Don any member of the public wishing to make a public comment okay come on up we can't pay you have to say something good evening my name's Don Watson living at one Collinson Drive can you hear me okay because I almost shouted out a few times many of you are not using your microphones or they're you're not close enough and it's kind of hard to hear voices coming out of the speakers um to continue this conversation um I have a coworker that lives up on oakill and she's always complaining about people cutting down trees she's saying all these people move into the neighborhoods and the first thing they do is cut down trees big trees and they have um tree people come in and tell these new residents I guess who she says they have never seen a tree um telling them that the trees need to come down because they're um decayed or whatever and she showed me pictures pictures of big trees with not a mark through the middle of them you know so the the tree guys are out there to cut trees down you know and if you introduce um notification to them maybe they'll think twice about that yeah because we're we will have a certified person go out to make a determination whether has before we're we're going to tell them you you know you're a licensed person you've got to protect your license give us the accurate an accurate answer yeah now she's telling me that where they cut the trees down all the yards out in the street now because the rains and it all washes out into the street there's nothing to hold the dirt in place because they cut the trees down yeah um I don't think any of us up here just to be clear are you sure what does that mean I don't think any of I I didn't say anything other than I don't think any of us up here uh none of us up here are I mean by BYT by virtue of the introduction of the ordinance today and and just as just as a side note is is a is once to Sea Tre swast of trees go down in fact that's exactly why we're uh in the midst of multiple pieces of of of Builder remedy suits um so so to say that any of us or or to insinuate that any of us up here want to see trees come down is simply not true what I don't like I'm glad nobody has said that well no no one said it but but I can I can sense it is that what I don't like is you are now layering another piece of government bureaucracy well I'm not personally not not Don but the Trenton is the the big gold dome right is once again layering another piece of bureaucracy on to the taxpayers and when people you know it's it's great to say that we're investing money into our Parks it's great to say that we're saving pieces of land because people can see that it's tangible for them right the public doesn't care that you need to go out and spend thousands of dollars on a consultant because Trenton said we need to inspect trees and decide whether or not they're decaying or not that's not that that the public cannot utilize that the public cannot go to someone's property and say well we really should have taken that tree down or you shouldn't have allowed that tree to go down and it's just another unfunded mandate it's another unfunded mandate if the state did this on a state level it would still have to be done correct only on a state level but they have to pay for it and the state would pay for it which is us anyway correct yeah aren't we the state budget directly though you know it's not within your budget budget directly I understand all that but um getting on to the um how long do you wait for the trees to die um like places like Home Depot give you one year you got one year if the tree dies you replace it they replace it for free yeah typically like with things that go to the planning boards it's three years of Maintenance they they have to require that the tree stays alive okay yeah all right I I just remembered that when you said well how long do we have to wait so well Home Depot only Waits one year you know and I'm sure many other places do the same um now with the salt you were saying the salt has to be covered and so it don't wash away and all that jibba Jaba um does that apply to like um the stuff that's not salt the ice melt it's anything that any deicing agent deicing agent yes all right shouldn't have said salt you're right it's deicing agents yeah pour salt on the wound all right I I was just curious about that because some people don't use salt right you know but they got files of this stuff and you know once it what's a something calside or something when it when it gets wet it just turns into a big block it's kind of like all copy all copies that are made are xeroxes same right back in the day or the fa oh what well people use zeroone copy that gets made y go ahead you can read about that in a history book I'll look it up on Wikipedia yeah right hopefully it'll be true with aord um I think that's all I got I just wanted to make a few points and um I appreciate it thank you for your time got it done thank you 60 Minutes comes on any minute and now okay all right uh any member of the public any member of the public wish to make a public comment seeing no member of the public stepping forward move to close the public portion and adjourn second committee man Clark yes committee woman Katz yes committee man SBO yes Deputy Mayor H yes mayor Perry yes motion carries to adjourn Don have a great night