##VIDEO ID:ekobCr7e-gg## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e everybody so I'm going to uh read the open public meeting statement in accordance with Section Five of the open meeting act chapter 231 public WS 1975 we advised that notice of this meeting was made by posting on the bulletin board town hall and serving the officially designated newspap that okay a designated newspaper and notice stating that this meeting would take place at the Town Hall at 7:30 pm on November 6 2024 Crystal roll please Mrs Canfield here Mr Davis here Mr Chada here Mr Frankle is absent Mrs Gaylord here Mrs glat is absent Mrs B is absent Mr Jenkins here Mr cin is not online yet no have him come in when he jumps on um next is announcements uh do we have any announcements that need to be made this evening hearing none we'll go to uh meeting minutes uh the minutes of August 1 meeting have been distributed to the Commissioners are there any additions Corrections of meeting minutes no hearing no changes do I hear a motion to approve motion to approve all in favor say I opposed 8 minutes and approved next we will go to memorializations from August 1st 2024 application I'm going to read them all application number 583 575 587 and 590 are there any additions or Corrections or questions on these memorandums do I hear a motion to approve motion to approve second second all in favor say I I I oppose moralization stand approved thank you we will now move on to new business so first application is is number 574 121 Highland Avenue block 2201 Lot Number Eight contributing property in Short Hills historic district Harry and Talia Rose are the applicants uh this is a regulatory application for construction of a three story residential elevator off the facade first of all if we could just have war in even though they've been SW in Jan is that um we have the applicant actually here tonight do swear or the testimony will on the I do I affirm so just briefly you did have a list of what you've already gone through with the commission but just remind fellow Commissioners where we are at this point where we were and where we are today okay um I gave you a synopsis with tonight's application packet to kind of give you the history we spent a good part of the summer thinking about options um I sent my office crew there to not just measure the area where we think the elevator was going to go but to show the totality of the whole house um those house plans are now in your packet I have them here as an exhibit in addition to that I have a hand out I'd like to give each of the Commissioners and I'll mark this as exhibit number one okay I'll explain the exhibit and then I'll get into what some of the work we've done to get to where we are today uh is the exhibit you have before you is a picture of the home the secondly is the rendering I did hand sketch showing what we presented back in April for the elevator the third is an alternate of all the various options we studied we came in the only one that was viable was alternate um on my list it was number five but I'll call this alternate number two actually it was number three but I've named it alternate number two in addition to that I have the next rendering page four which is the current application what this would look like and then finally I have the um pictures floor plans of alternate number two laid out showing where the elevator could go and what the optional Pathways that existed from that and then now I'm going to go to the plants and explain why we appear to have the same elevator that we presented in April there some objection I've read Barton's recommendation and another objection why it's so important for us to have location as we drawn it um firstly this is the only location in which three windows on three different floors align in the whole house there's only a couple of opportunities where I have a basement window a first floor window and a second floor window align why is that critical it's critical because one of the one of the standards of historic preservation is the ability to remove this new thing and not have the house damaged or inly change so that's number one uh number two I made the addition smaller as you'll see from the floor plan in your packet A1 we're only now coming about 3' N9 in off of the house wall in area have these alignment of three windows in addition to that I didn't go up to the attic anymore so you'll see from the original presentation to this one that the entire elevator assembly sits on the facade wall of the house right here and no longer interferes with the attic D so we've made it smaller now the reason we made it smaller is because we're trying to make a convincing argument to you Commissioners that this is the best location despite study that we did of alternative and Barton's comments about where he could do it this is really where the grossers would like to have it the purpose of this elevator is to allow Mr gross who's lived in the house for how many years 43 43 years to age in place Talia the wife is here with her cane it's not just the prop she's having hip surgery um the elevator is not the primary means for getting in and out of the house but it will be one day and having access to come from the driveway into the house approximate to where the circular driveway is is of Paramount importance placing the elevator behind the house on the side of the house where she Parks her car and uses the kitchen entrance would be a complete Devastation of the way they live Barton had recommended that the elevator be considered for going off the kitchen here in this addition that addition is fine there's no basement on it so we'd have to completely demolish it take away the staircase a second bathroom and and and the Little Pantry they have is that the laundry room laund room and then put the elevator inside of that which is probably a good solution it's the least impactful to the structure but it would devastate the way they live they use this door 100% of the time for going in the house the main entrance door which is next to where put in the elevator is a heavy door it's a door they have a hard time opening double it's a double door it's two doors um and they they really don't use it the idea of the elevator is to have it in a place where they can pull up with a car or a van or however habitation of Transportation they wind up with and go into this vestibule go up 12 in and get to their first floor so this allow for the basement the first floor and second floor to give them 100% handicap accessibility there's no ramps to shovel there it's it's an enclosure the only thing they have to do is just make sure there's a pathway between where they Park this car right here and that door Wen studies were predominantly focused on the ReUse of this enclosure so as I said it has no basement they will never have access to their basement her closet is predominantly her beautiful storage closet is in the basement she needs to be able to get there and treking through the house to get to just keep parts of the basement or U first floor they'd have to go through kitchen they'd have a step in here to go from this Wing into the main house where their bedroom is and it's very inconvenient and loses their primary entrance which would is not the way they want to live the alternative I show here and I'll go that and these are in your handouts is to put the elevator in the corner this was an option that was brought up by one of the Commissioners hand out this one the one I just gave you and you like primarily yes number two it's on page three and then page four and five support elevation putting it in this corner will allow them to have entrance from where the the parking where the circular driveway is and it would allow them to have the elevator go into the kitchen so we can have the best of you all elevator they would lose the desk in the kitchen and the yellow dots I show on that drawing are the pathway of trying to get to where they really want to be which is their living room and Harry's office on the second floor that pathway a little bit more securious these their hallways upstairs there's a step and then they're very very narrow so getting around here this is a very inconvenient thing to get to the location where they want to be with their bedroom being right over here finally in the basement it's actually a better location in the corner but um because it doesn't come through into her closet but it's a it's a secur as pathway that's the only other option that I developed since April that even remotely satisfies the goals which is to put the elevator approximate to where they can park a car quickly scoot in and allow them to age in place in the home and the other Solutions particularly that ones like farton did or or option number two uh are all compromises and as as Mr gross has said I don't want to do it and it's not like it's this way or the highway but basically I think that uh live in this house for 43 years we're using the stairs from the entrance to go both to the kitchen and upstairs and the proposal I think that Mr Barton presented would eliminate the stairs which would mean that our main access would be to the main door that would be total contrary to how we live for the last 43 years we never use the main door to enter exit we welcome guests through that door but we don't use it ever so I ask is this the main door yes is it's a double door yes there's a door there's a door best another door not a double door like a French door it's a single door vestibule second door with a couple of steps in there in between so as this person with a handicap I have a situation where and you said was a 12 in step that's a big step no no the steps are like six in oh all right but there's there's a couple of them there's the one from the driveway to the entrance the entrance to the vestibule vestibule to the house hold up just for a minute so continue Mr just basically I think that um any alternative that would not permit us to continue to live the way we live for the last 43 years would not be something that we could live with it's just destroying the house and um not permitting us to live our lives and at the same time I believe that the addition that um is proposed actually does not penetrate into the house it can be removed as Tony mentioned therefore from historic preservation point of view is also I think a um good solution so we really uh ask um anybody who passes by our house or knows our house we know that we take care of our property we're very proud of it and uh we improve it all the time I think that this would be actually an improvement that uh it would permit us to continue to live there rather than do than to do what I'm trying to convince my wife to do to move to Florida but she she she won't go she will not go because the dog the dog which is the most important person in the house has a backyard not that I'm important but that's okay a well thank you um I don't have much more to add uh just a plea to strongly consider we don't chop a single Board of the home with this solution Bon had talked about putting it inside the house and of course you know you got to chop up the floor and support destroying our library it would be very um for you to see what uh the other proposal uh proposes is basically to destroy a very important part of our the only question I do have is the renderings that you showed Tom is that every idea that you have or was there additional because I don't see one internally oh the internal one was not something we even wanted to consider um I did do an intermediate one which I didn't hand out and it was done in May it's not in your handout but it was this version the difference is that these are two panels that go straight down as opposed to the one you see in the picture which is one door and a window um I just thought that the two panels was an option but I didn't do it so what I'd like right now is if you don't mind will have the Commissioners ask questions or comments yeah we're we're Clos perfect perfect um anybody yeah I just I'd like you to explain a little bit more why a solution that's not on the front of the house where you guys go in all the time but is I'm assuming you looked at ways to fit something into the back side I don't know if it is important to have your washer dryer on the floor we would be just knocking that room out so where would be wash so I'm that's trying to understand the configuration of where you are um you know typically we wouldn't want to put something like this on the front and I agree Tom what you said about you know having the ability to remove it that's important it's not permanent it can be taken away at some point that's that's a separate question I'll get to but um typically we want to put it behind the house so it's not visible the street so that's if there was a suggest by Bart doesn't work where you suggested were there other places that considered behind the house but uh yeah I did I I walked with Barton behind the house there's a staircase back there the staircase is right here but putting it in here the problem on the first floor is that the whole kitchen would have to be ripped out it would be right right in this location okay um that was the one for behind the house it doesn't mean they can get there easily from their driveway this is a circular driveway and it's very important you cannot see this elevator from the street or from any public way the way the house is is nestled in with the driveway you can't see the front door you have to drive in have you I don't know if you've had the I I know that I mean all the work you did with the fence over the last couple years so familiar with it so yeah and and it is well camouflaged so that when you look down the drive you have a nice curve to it so it's not really seen U it's just that you know trees are not permanent and architecture is so you know more permanent the trees areion each one of the proposals would actually take out pieces of living space whereas the um washer dryer where it is parts of the living group and so on it just didn't seem like a practical solution um yeah all right well I understand what you're saying I just wanted to make sure that and I'm sure you had that you had some options in the back um on I just noticed on the option that you're putting forth here that you know you'd have an entrance from the outside to to get into this area right so you talked about how normally you're going into the right of the house but now this would I guess become your more standard traditional to just to go upstairs not to go into the kitchen we will still use the existing entrance from the kitchen okay where Talia is parking her car or she just opens the door of the car with the groceries and everything else that walks into the kitchen sure sure I guess the only question I have with the current proposal is that there's a a handle in the door so you know is is that opening in opening out like how easy is that someone who is requesting to have an elevator is obviously having some Mobility uh movements is that the best having out or how would that be function how would that be work if someone is most residential doors swing in for one simple reason if there ever had snow and ice you can get out of your house a canopy would help that if I wanted to swing out but the door would swing into a vestibule the vestibule then would to the right is the elevator and that's how you go to the first floor that would lift the elevator goes up literally only 16 inches and it allows for 100% handicapped accessibility and something to know I didn't bring this up but this is an accommodative solution that is federally guaranteed we're a local board and this is a local review criteria um they have they really do need an elevator they're concerned about their lifestyle no that's what I was asking about the door because I was thinking it's not that easy for someone to open it who might be in a wheelchair so because it's swinging I don't know if there's a way to make it so it's a sliding door or something like that oh not with an outside wall it has to really get a good seal um most doors in America are or if it's motorized or something it could yeah that could be I'm just thinking of going through all this effort and then having them trying to open the door and you maybe they can maybe they answer so um any just some thoughts I had on that um I I mean I think we should read if we want to read Bart's comments that he's opposed to this you know solution sure um well certainly I I I want to be clear here here tonight meeting of the minds to figure out how we can make this work right for everybody um but also know that we do have guidelines that we have to follow and one of them is you know uh the Secretary of interior standards which we all know that we're not supposed to change the appearance of the front of the house but if there are changes made to the house me if I'm wrong they must look different than the rest of the house so it's kind of kind of a weird situation here okay so it must look like it was added later or Etc um we can we can oblige that we can have it slight different color we can we don't have to match it the the current stucco of the house I just want to point out it's failing this this black that you see here is not dirt I'm I'm doing without myself so I do understand this this stucco will be here for a while but this could never be changed and the part that's going to be new will probably have an air barrier if we did do stucco it probably would have a weep pole which allows for air to get behind that cavity so Tom I am familiar with how the elevator is constructed so you have not put it up and through the roof so where are the actual where's the when the elevator goes up there is a bulkhead yes thank you the bulkheads underneath the pitch proof right above the second floor window so on my little sketch after the architectural drawings are please help me where are you and where is it on your sket yeah yeah so the elevator is a there's going to be a bol it has an 8ot ceiling it's a 7ot 68 elevator and the bulkhead is about 8 to 12 in so it's above that that window underneath the roof line and the roof line is pitched so we have oh sorry I'm point at the wrong version yeah that's all right that version and that's what we're proposing so and the pit down in the basement obviously has to be about 8 inches you know for the floor structure hdic is that house uh we it's probably a piston with hydraulic I you'll see the machine room downstairs okay um but pneumatics are as of May of this year illegal in New Jersey um they had a 5year period in which pneumatics were tested and um the Department of community feris did not up its renewal so if you see anybody with aaic those are no longer legal as of May of this year so H this piston is the only solution also to have an elevator and if you don't mind what I did do because we didn't get a copy and I want you to confirm and maybe we should put it as an exhibit but here is it the v504 right is that correct what's v v is in Victor 1504 is the elevator oh that's a searia model number yes it's a residential elevator yes do you mind if we please review this so we can use it as an exhibit so I can give it to my members we don't have a cut sheet yeah of the elevator I I did give a machine room although they say machine roomless the reason it's machine roomless possible is they put the equipment now on this roof so there's really no piston what it is it's a rail there two rails with a power motor and like a wheel and you turn it on and goes up and down the rails that are on one of the walls we do have a machine room because we don't have the bulkhead to be able to put the equipment up there so it's possible to have a machine room lless in the basement yeah I have it on my basement plan okay got it yeah and uh I did put a cross-section of it in here uh it's a residential elevator so it's effectively two hamsters on it's slow it's you know it's like 30 do you accept this we put it as an exhibit then I can pass it out to so this will be exhibit number two dated today and again it's just off the internet so uh you know I think we would prefer some kind of brochure but I have there's a drawing on my packet I mean I respect the brochure all right that's fine maybe Janine um you guys need one um yeah the only deviation from yours to mine is the machine room ours we're gonna have one but okay that's what I was gonna ask so it's going to be in the basement then keep this straight so again let me say that we're conflicted because again we're not supposed to recognize land landscaping and even though your house is you know very landscaped stunning um you know we do have to take in account if someone purchased your house you know someday 50 years from now they could you know take down all of the landscape okay so um that's what we have to look at as a board here um also take down I may they can take down the whole elevator that was question I like to have a little bit everything is removable and you are left with the original House the original openings the original Len holes all the flooring and what about uh go ahead you ask no I would just like to know like you it needs to be it should be REM so obviously you're Excavating something in the basement you're window well there's a window well there today okay and we're digging it out making it bigger but not much because if you saw my Dimensions I'm only coming about 3T off the wing w I understand that but and then this is going to attach to the front of the facade and what happens when you take that elevator off like what would be left behind you'd have to repair the patches the connections the physical areas that are flashed to keep water from going into it the blending of Stucco want it to be a different color we could certainly distinguish it I I don't have any objection I showed you that the current house is black and yellow this would be brand new it's it'll be easily dis distinguishable to address your point but you're taking a you know roughly seven yeah 7t across yes yeah so let me explain from this kitchen to this dining room the property dropped off about six feet so I would have to we'd have to build up a huge amount of ground area to just to get it to work at the back of the house like that right now you have stairs extending yes there are you're saying the down next to the stairs continues yes it does yes quite abruptly quite abrupt very abruptly yes so I again it's my job to challenge you okay so if we looked at the washer dryer off the kitchen area and you wanted to keep the stairs and you wanted to um a little more of a job let's just say but is that something that you could keep the stairs add to that place where wherever it is maybe where you're parking add a little bit to that parking so the flow is an extension um I I realize the hallway I do understand that and then the step internally right explain that there's no basement right this stair goes from the first floor to the second floor the laundry is on the first floor and there's a bathroom on the second floor and there's a hallway and a door they use that door actively putting the elevator there we'd have to knock this whole Wing down and build something that allows them to get basement access so that they have accommodative access to an important part of the house right so anything down at this end it it really doesn't work on the second floor you'd have to cross a um guess what how do you use the second floor this is just what is the use of the second floor here the library the library they have to cross through the library down this hallway and it's a very securious path to get to the bedroom so they would lose their stair we'd have to knock down the tower we'd have to relocate a laundry room it's not a very good location and it's not connected to the driveway per se it's it's it's not a bad spot because I you know I maybe I can put the door on this side but it's it's just um it's difficult it would be a very expensive solution with the slab though you could go up higher is that correct I mean with the mechanics you could put you wouldn't have to have a basement well then they wouldn't get a key access to key a key access point is is the basement you like to have the basement you should see her collection she has a a walk-in closet in a basement yeah with B saw it's beautiful so show me again show us the basement plan and see go same yeah this ter existing storage is talia's walk-in closet right the elevator would come right into here and next to it would be a door cut for the machine room and this location this little shut out is because I have this inent natural to the house it's really the least one the it's it's the only solution that doesn't build in a 7 Foot by 10t room to house the elevator in vesb so that's what you're coming into she she gets access directly enter right and if you put it in the other location let's just say you D I'd have to move the utilities because there's the whole furnace room so the other location that Fon proposed is here it's on the other side of all the mechanical equipment there's duct work that has to be in the basement oh yeah this whole thing is the utility mod okay heat hot water heater yeah there the heights are not it's not at all a good location it's not supportive yeah I just have a question G to go back to that that location as well I know you mentioned to get rid of the laundry room and the bathroom on the other floor but can you explain why that has to be removed the elevator over there because if I'm looking at the space that it takes up here and then J to go over where the staircase is and Barton's I think he had a little red dish and it looks like you only only have to take get rid of the staircase not the laundry room as well well the staircase only would be making it impossible for us to live in the house How would how would we live in the house without the staircase you have a main staircase no no we don't live in the main staircase there but it is something that what you're asking us to do to change our life I'm sorry that's not going to happen well they've had it for 43 years they just they're aging you know no no no no no it is something that we will not consider what I mean by that is we go up and down the stairs right now and we try to keep the stairs available um our kids have come down those stairs for uh whatever years and so on and to say just remove the stairs is very Gallant with all due respect but it's not happening okay then to that point then going back to you can keep the stairs and then remove the launcher remove obviously you have to put somewhere else but the elevator could fit where the lunding room at there but bathroom you lose a bathroom else of course basically it is uh a um an ask that say move your laundry room in the basement or I don't know where not that we have the room and uh use lose the um um bathroom and uh make a a a access to go there there was you have this driveway all around right now the car is parked in front of the kitchen room that you can go with the groceries and come into the kitchen and use that and uh you are really asking us to change our life so BR to answer your question folded a piece of paper which is approximately this intervention and I'm superimposing it on this box here so having a vestibule in the elevator is about 2third of the size of that box so but you know the elevator can't would have to be in the middle it's what he said it's they lose they're stubborn in the sense that they've lived in this house for 43 years and the solution is to try to everyone wants to deny getting older the elevator is a family decision they they've all made with their children and they're trying not to um destroy the way they live in pursuing this fully understand that yes I completely sympathize with that and we want them to be able to still stay in the house and have the elevator just trying to Grapple with where it can be and still preserve the original facade of the the front of the house which is as Al said usually no no with soral preservation so that's what I'm just trying to understand Logistics of both of these options and okay let me let me argue the front of the house this is this is the the box it's right right here it just comes out 3 feet n inches from the wing walls it is the least intervention I mean I color it the same color maybe what you said is accurate we should do it differently but the house currently without it is that it's a recessed location with windows that just line up it's uh I Tred not to go above that s line because I thought that would do the best not to destroy the you know at least the architecture of the home um to say the house is very important to us we we we live in the house our CH children have been born and raised there and and we love the house and what we have done all along is to continue to improve it to the best of our ability and maintain its in a way can I ask do you have a W room on the second Flor does the laundry and it's off the kitchen is how she likes it I've I've grappled with this for six months I know and we are too so don't think for one minute yes please I have a question on top of this extension looking at your rendering I'm not quite sure it's accurate and how that roof line is going to change right so you're pushing it out slightly and and then you have profile here you have an elevation yeah let me show your yeah trying to understand what that what the angle how that'll change elongate that roof line slightly right so you see this line just beneath the Dormer yeah that's a new roof line so if the roof ends here and it and it the roof finishes this roof finishes below these two Wings I'm building on top of that roof with my other hand this other roof all right so you're extending that that's right I'm building on top of roof and extending it out about eight or n ft to cover the Box where's that in the profile where is this yeah in the side profile yeah um well it's hard to see it because most of it's covered but it is right here so what comes out that's not there now what I'm trying to get oh I'll show you first like I see this here yes but I have not seen so this is what comes out right here right but where's that where's this in your side is so but you're talking about an angle and then the change angle yes this angle comes down which you don't see in this picture right because it's behind this it's behind it and then you see just you're only going to see part of that this is the actual profile of this P so this roof line you're drawing at the same slope as what's there no much flatter slope just it doesn't actually seem to be here in profile so I'm try understand that aspect will be feeling oh so we're missing a little I think I think this is not accurate okay it's it's that because it's behind all these boxes it should only pop out for the slight piece that comes up that's right just just for that so there all right so we're we're this is here yes it's behind you I think we would just need this updated so I understand I was just trying to understand I would have to upate how that would look and then obviously this is this is helpful um the roof's coming down and then it's doing something like that to accommodate the push out I understand thanks for finding that I'll sorry um the other point I wanted to bring up is I'm sure you ISS Sol option come in from outside as currently are you talk about coming in from the right side of the house but then having the elevator to be fully inside the house is that even possible yes let me show you we did Bart and I met and we talked about it we walked through the house so I'm going to go to the first floor we have to have a ramp that gets from the driveway up to the vestibule another ramp that goes from the vestibule up to the first floor because of a double door yes these are they' be short ramps but very steep right not beating Bon said can we located it over here I said you can but this door is it's a 48 inch door and it wouldn't give me the room and I'd have to you know I'd have to cut a hole in the whole house to achieve that which is a very big intervention I understand coming only steps to get in the house on the right side is that right are there steps here tell to come in from where you park your car where you park the kitchen door how many are there probably 16 16 inches two steps eight inches and8 inches so would is it possible to turn that into elongated ramp that would not be seen from yeah but there's no basement even talking about putting the elevator there I'm talking about providing a ramp to get you access into the house then having the elevator internal to the house where you don't even see it from the outside like that's an option that doesn't talk about changing sign um the most the best area for the elevator is in this large for um if we just try to put a box like that somewhere I have all these passages which are really a fact Bon and I talked he actually walked in there with me when he did this right it would have to be right like I was looking at what what call could exist I mean you have the part of her storage space that Foy and then there's another fo top of that is that not a space that it could fit there reconfiguration on the third floor the second floor just want to make sure that we explore that before we talk about seriously talk about something I did I assure you I I didn't bring diagrams to point but I could draw up diagrams to show it if that's important we can adjourn and I'll come back and show you those diagrams just trying to go through the process that's all again I know I think you answered this question for me before but a lot of these older homes that there's some kind of existing chimney of some sort uh that is no longer being used because we don't use that someplace inside of the house where is where would that be located um so the one chimney is shown on my sketch and it's shown here and I'll point at a picture of it no I mean in internally in the house is it it's well back so where is it on the um this is probably in line on the floor plane let me show you I'd say it's right here there's one in the bedroom um there's another one here in this master bedro and both of them are on the first floor as well and they are here and here in the living room they're just not shown they're shown on the second floor they're not shown but they are here but you're on the second floor they're fireplaces they're fireplace on the first floor okay I'm talking about more of a like a CO you know originally they releas the oh no there's nothing like that nothing like that no when you and I spoke about you put the elevator in an old chimney Chase correct yeah they don't have that chimney Chase is two feet deep in this house okay and where is that located um just where I pointed at just the Chim Chase on fireplace okay I thought you said there was an additional one oh no no there's no other ones I mean we should have shown it because we did Venture the whole first floor but it's the second floor just not the first floor plan so any other questions and I I certainly have a certainly have a comment um first of all I see this house every single day multiple times a day and I think it's stunning it's beautiful I see that you're just getting ready to do the pool house um I've noticed the work that you've done and understand where our limitations are and we're struggling with this too we're not trying to give you a hard time at all um for us it you know touches the house less uh if by adding a new addition to off of your kitchen right we do understand the challenges from going from that area and then you know in through then to your living space we understand that and we are we are trying to accommodate that for me though you've done everything perfect on this house I mean even above and beyond so I'm challenging you to because it elevator is more utility more of a utility space is to take time to really think about I'd like to challenge you okay because you've done everything so well to add a little more to that space whether it's through through the basement adding a bigger maybe space there to allow for an elevator you're talking about this space yes yes well that would have to knock down I'd have to put a basement there that's but also there is a the driveway there oh yeah she this is the driveway that goes to the garage right but what we can do is we can approve expanding and scooting the driveway we can't over no there's no physical space you cannot go down to the to the two garages that you have okay yeah so I'm showing uh the site plan on the cover sheet yeah and the you know the pool house so this distance here is 20 looks like 23t from the corner of where they are it's 23 ft to the property line you can see the driveway is mostly there and going back with it though like what could you expand it I have to go for Val because you're supposed to be 22 feet um off the pro is this R3 it's R3 it's it's 25 feet yeah it's it's right now it's non-conforming but even even even so you Cann go down right there's no so if they leave the laundry room yeah there's I'd have to build a tunnel under it on a slab right yeah but you're talking on addition next to it yes right and to do an addition next to this without having a basement here I can't I can't get to the first of all mening the utility room the mechanical room I would probably have to relocate all the mechanical equipment it it's not it's not possible to put an addition in I'd have to go for variances too because we're too close to the neighbors is that something again I think we can support I don't think Point physically I don't think there is space to go down to drive down to the to just simply no space how do you go down and use the entire two garages that we have they referring to this right here this is the knuckle I just I just have a quick question because we don't have photos of it but um the garage that's back there is that connected to the house no no no it's not it's sit separately so you have to walk up the driveway and go on that side door go down we have to walk up the driveway to get into the kitchen but you also have a door to the basement yeah you have SE separate door to the basement stairs to the basement and that was those were the stairs to I think that's probably going to your point visually it's hard for me to that's not the beauty of this solution is it allows someone from the driveway to go directly into the house and get to the first floor and approximate where the park cars are parked they leave their cars for the most part on this um circular area you said that they tend to come in from the kitchen side that's right she Parks right now blocks the driveway and uses that as a way of life that's how she gets in and out she Parks her car right here I mean you know providing accessibility to the house supposed to have path of travel that allows EAS access and all so it's you're Shifting the focus to enter the house through the front which is not what you're doing so that's why this actually changes you know your I mean it's the standard the front but you're actually then making them come into the front whereas now you're say com the side the back well they they don't intend to use the elevator yet but the elevator is there decision because they want to be able to age in place what she's going through is a microcosm of what's going to happen so they are fighting to keep the way they live you don't she's gonna be a spring chicken forever so um we don't we don't do that to women okay oh she's gonna use that cane on you uh I'm just being blunt they live no no no I understand and we're trying to make the it light here because we really do want to help you but we we see you know again another space to us that makes more sense and can save the the structure but which space is that which space is that would be off of the kitchen but now hold on but what I'd like to see is more information if this elevator can be removed like if someone bought the house and decided that that elevator isn't something that they want on the house um I need some more information Tom because I don't think Barton was aware that this is something that could be taken off it certainly uh only because of the as a temporary window yeah yeah I don't have to touch the walls I mean we're going to build over it I am touching the roof so I'm tying to the roof but everything else is just going right onto the uh those two fin walls that come out on the sides so what I'd like to do then if like us to think about those two spots but if you're stuck on the front of the house then I think we need to see drawings of what's stain how that's going to work and consider it as more a temporary structure I can provide that I can also provide um what he requested if we had to put it internal where it is and we could debate just like I did the other option I can show you the the negative impact um well first of all if the grosses don't want it to be you know in the middle of somewhere right I do see the flow would be thrown off um in the entrance but it is a big house right so if even if it could be adjusted somehow or you know pushed back I know you Tom you're creative from the first meeting in April to now this is only coming out 3' n inches from each of these wi walls that is an important thing because I was coming out further before I was going higher with it before I tried to minimize it um I can't go any smaller um than that um yeah so so let me just take the Pulse of the Commissioners because we don't want to deny this application okay but I personally need more information if it's something that's going to be a temporary structure so let's just continue to keep saying that this is a temporary structure um so does everyone agree that we kind of rework that we understand that piece and then I I think I also need to better understand what's going to be removed and how you would return it to its current state if in the future somebody buys the house because if you're putting big holes in this house and then then they have to try to match the stucco and all that to bring it back I know how it's that could that could be a major problem with restoring it to its current state so that could that could be an issue for a future buyer let us see what that entails yeah um because certainly the grosses have the option to change a stu up color at any point in time right we don't control that color so we're not going to f stick to the fact that we won't be able to match the color somebody comes back in right so we just want to see the mechanics of this we want more specs on the actual elevator of you know from the manufacturer just so we better understand the mechanics of it and we can certainly you me and Barton can talk about you know really what we're looking for if I haven't convinced you Mr gross that look at by the kitchen I don't know would you like visit we'd be happy to entertain the HBC to only if you are in place can you understand the difficulties that it presents and just I I wish to uh mention that um we really appreciate your work this is this is not uh talking basically we appreciate because we believe that our neighborhood has to be protected and we're very proud of our house and we would like to do justice to it and therefore your contribution is oneome well thank you and again we just want to better understand we have guidelines so I want to be able to say okay we're not meeting the secretary standards but this is a temporary structure and this is how it's going to work yeah with very much welcome if time permits for you to come visit us and to look at alternative that have been considered and they I don't think as good as these in particular the issue that you're mentioning the possibility of removing the structure is a very important part so therefore I'm going to ask you to work on that and to present uh additional information and any time that you're available individually or collectively we would welcome you to see for yourself what's possible and which alternative is best any other yeah just on this on this thing about the differentiation you know I know you colored it stuck on all I actually think that the window Choice can actually serice differentiated by that I mean there's some variation to the windows here I know these are kind of handdrawn fli them back and forth the accurate picture but there's some broad windows to the right and then there's some you know P together over the main entrance and I and I I kind of like what you've done with these narrow Windows because those I think are differentiating from what's there right now so even though you're putting something on the facade I think it may actually provide that differentiator and that says this was not original similar but it's different but it doesn't Clash so yeah I think that might the way you've drawn it here I don't know if that's actually how it is in the plant but I think that may actually work for yeah differentiating I agree I agree so instead of maybe the surface or you know the color okay yeah I think it's the window might be a more subtle way because you don't want something so so Stark on the front you want to have it not as not as obvious I assure you that whatever we do I don't know if we'll ever match this this is this this black is going to be impossible to replicate well I think proud of yeah the house is over 120 years old exactly right when you're in Europe right you see this all the time it doesn't that's what I keep telling myself too when I look at my house it's it's okay um so what I'd like to do is if you'd like to come back in December does that give you enough time Tom to yeah yeah I mean I have to straighten out a couple roof lines that he picked up on and I will and then the roof material would you use slate or would you differentiate with a different material the thing is that little that little slope the thing is whatever the material is today the new roof has got to be the same I I just went through this from my house I put zinc and it's tiles and they're customized to color they're L Wei slates they're very expensive I probably would do slate here because it's easier to tie slate into slate right or do you have copper on your house anywhere you can do that as a roof it could be flashed yeah really nice oh if you look at the front door picture you'll see there's a copper um can I ask a question uh I see on the proposed second floor plan how are all these bedrooms used is your big bedroom on the left on the right yours is that your bedroom Master the two the two next to it are just guest rooms one of them is a guest room we have the luxury what is over the kitchen uh the library yeah the library no they have a huge book collection you should see the books well yeah but that but you can move the room up to part in the library yeah I think he already said she likes to do the laundry but the laundry but your bedroom is up there believe me it's easier to not take the laundry downstairs and carry it upstairs now I have somebody coming in do my laundry now I don't to it up we are not going to destroy the library you have to see it well I can believe it's beautiful I I have a tutor house myself not today this one and I can appreciate what you're doing but El just come and see and see for yourself and decide I can appreciate what you're doing I have my own health problems but um no well first of all we just you know we want to thank you that you've worked with us and we're going to continue to keep pushing this forward and see what we can do um and thank you for respecting the fact that we have restrictions too so abolutely yeah so we appreciate that I also have very and Tom I know You' shared but an interesting piece about that house and you don't mind before we close I took a old sandborn map and I'd like to share with everyone this this house uh had actually multiple structures but the garage there used to be a road that went through the property and so it's kind of interesting this was kind of you give the a lighter one you can see it but I'll I'll share with also the rest of the Commissioners about the original piece of this property now this date was probably 20 anywhere from 20 to 50 I'm not sure the exact date of the Sor map because it ranged but at one time that was all one lot as you can see where the roads connected so I'm sure your priority knew that Dr Miller divided the property and sold us the house and he kept the lot got it right behind us yeah so I I found it quite interesting and I'm glad you guys uh really appreciate the house and it shows so we will see you I will come back we'll present um the connections we'll talk about the detailing how this thing could be removed um I'll try to update the plans to reflect more accurate depiction of that roof line we'll testify more to the roof line we probably would do a copper roof but that's I would differentiate the Windows like you had commented and um well you know Tom the routine whatever Windows you're replacing them with we need specs if you're going to do copper we need you to tell us that you're going to do that I will I'm just telling you what and roofing material yeah I don't know if I'll make December but I I'll do the best I can we'll make room for you whatever you decide how's that great thank you thank you and we appreciate it so much yes carried without further public thank you thank you appreciate it thank you thank you for your time thank you Commissioners thank you thank you guys thank you for waiting page to application number 588 17 Highland Avenue block to 2111 I should say Lot number 17 it's a non-contributing property in the short Park District regulatory application to construct in addition to the side the Associated exterior side improvements you be right we're ready ready to be yeah his wife's not here okay but she's coming she's picking up one the okay but when she comes I'd like to s do you swear or affirm that the testimony you will provide on the application to the commission tonight will be the truth all truth please proceed okay okay you go oh okay I I will go like very briefly so basically um me and my wife uh moving into Sean Hills like almost 15 years ago uh and I have a two daughter born here and shill is uh you know our home and in the past I get a chance to work with the committee uh very good experience as a Miss Alon said the committee is uh uh you know not only protect the historic property also try to work out protector you know the resident uh the value and to make the Improvement and I do appreciate very much and personally I uh trying to like work out make efforts to follow the guideline you give to to us and um we actually when we purchase this property that that was the last year and we have a concern about the historic area and the agent make lots of efforts and she also like a confirm uh you know this is a non contribute uh property um so then we decided Mi a purchase and we we will work with the team our Arch uh for almost a year we subit our first application back in May and at that time uh we uh got some suggestion you know uh it's better to make some uh uh a modification or Improvement and actually in the past three months we work very closely uh with Mr Barton and you know we got a lots of suggestion and we I would say made a lots of efforts in order to compromise you know the requirement from the town uh in September uh the hearing was cancelled by there The Zo meeting instead and we go for there and we appreciate all the comments uh for me I think it's a pracy smoth and afterwards we GA confirmation email from uh Mr Barton and we can go ahead to submit it and we we have the email you know all the confirmation from there and uh for all the details I leave to uh Team to explain all the memos and efforts we to and all the technical details that's all from thank you thank you thank you can I ask you to move this over to that side I really Mak the board of adjustment makes me go on this side now and I'm so used to being on this side that it drives me crazy I'm so used to turn it to my right and now and I the board the board just changed it I figed come on this side for I have my glass on and so it's like it's like normal I really never know what to do much better thank you very much the um well maybe right here on this table I did that one night long time ago um I I I guess what we're saying is I guess what what he's trying to say is that we [Music] um you know we originally started this on about 514 we did my first set which is my HP T1 set and um I'll just run you through it really quick sure I don't think it'll take to but this is my HPC1 set which we completed on 514 Senate to Barton to kind of look at and um we had some we have going on here if you look at the site plan on you know my HPC1 sheet it's actually very similar to how it is in the final one today we are adding a little bit in the front of the building that is three feet that we're going to the left and then when we get to the primary part of the garage we're adding six feet to the left okay and you can kind of see it in my cross-hatching there that we are taking this existing bump which kind of goes one two three and we're taking going one two right we've pushed it we've added that area that we cross hatched and in addition to that on this scheme we were making the building taller like we have a 10 foot ceiling on the first floor and a 9 foot ceiling on the second floor and then we kind of have an attic space because you know we can have an attic space by zoning and um the elevations I'll show to youit better in just a second but the elevation had the existing Gable and another Gable and you see how we're really raising the roof and Bon originally asked me to you know push the roof down and retain the existing Ridge so we've actually done that we now what we're going to see today we are at that elevation really we in other words we left the existing Ridge as is and then we did that we came to our our 12 series application and you see that I sent that one over to Barton my my client's like I just fill in my client no just joking anyway keep sending it over and I um you know he was having me lower this element he actually had one point looking at a shed Dormer for this element and lowering the third element on the side and adding this little roof to kind of scale down that side elevation and then I was sitting with them on the phone we were talking about adding these two door mirors and going back and forth and you can see now I've kind of cut the building down to the existing Ridge and then we kind of redid that submitting about 78 really we're trying to set up for the um 81 meeting and then Barton came back and he asked me to make it a little smaller and this is a non-designated site he asked me to make it smaller again and then we came back with our 22 series which I didn't print big because I'm getting upset with printing all the paper and uh I guess I can't do you can see that now we've done that same thing where I kept the old roof we added these two door m and we dropped this one down and I probably was the biggest one that didn't like these two little dog house fers because I think they look a little silly um I don't think Barton liked them either so then we went and we moved on to um our 30 series and in that Series right we've just lifted the roof in that area but left the ridge where it was so we just lifted it to do it and then um from there we came to our 40 series which is what's in front of you tonight and well I I guess what I should say is that that then we had this kind of Zoom call on um I think it was 95 you know and I think so I think you maybe came in for just a little bit but left or you were in Boston and tried to get on it was that call yeah BR was on and um I want to say Jordan Josh Josh was you know and then if you were back home I think Alice I think you were travel I think you were travel yeah I was in the airport yeah yeah yeah and um anyway we finished that call we went through everything and it seemed like we're in pretty good shape and Barton came back and then on the 16th sent me an email and said okay you're good to go okay and I actually have it if you want it but I don't know he says there's no more comments please submit revised drawings to the full commission on on um 9916 and then so we did we submitted on 918 and we submitted these drawings and Barton came back and um on his report he gave me that little sketch that he uh that I had drawn on the zoom call we on the zoom call and I um I just gonna C to the of this if I can find this um what we did is in lie of taking this bmer all the way across the way that it is on that sketch I dropped it back down at the two ends so that we could get back to where it came from and I actually think that Borton missed it okay and um then and then and then Barton is discussing a little bit this Dormer here this dog house and uh I would really wouldn't mind if that was a shed instead of a doghouse Dormer I think bar doesn't like to Peak as it competes with the primary Gable that's here okay um and then Barton is also commenting about the fact of adding double windows into this and you can see that on my sketch which is the sketch that's on Barton's report and oh I think I may even have a yeah that little sketch that was really a sketch that I used during the zoom call and um you can see what we're doing is we were taking I should show we're asking to do kind of oh I guess I also say have all the existing drawings and maybe the existing drawings are helpful for this but that is my existing elevation okay and you know we are well I guess I guess first thing I should say Bon is saying that we are kind of ripping down the house but we're really not this is similar to what we did on um 151 Highland in that little uh that little house is next door to the really big brick Colonial that I did the one that's to the left of it on that house we know we left the facade of that house and really renovated the interior and um actually really kind of would wanted you guys to come up and see it because it's very very interesting what we did we really built a 10-ft ceiling on the first floor even though it only had a 7 foot6 ceiling even though we left the entire skin just the way it was and that's what we're really proposing to do here we've really left the building in place but we want to raise the first floor to 9 fet we want to pick up the first floor um we're not going to remove the facade to do that just so you know we it's it doesn't make sense to um it's easier to just lift the floor up inside which is exactly what we did up on Highland when we did the same thing and we've left the ridge where it was what we really did is and I'm just gonna kind of draw it in for is we added this Dormer onto the ridge here so that we could get back to our primary roof but lift our our Windows because as we raised our um as we raised our floor we had to raise our Windows of foot so that's really all we did and I I did it that way so that we could retain on both sides of this building the primary roof and just create this little Dormer into the into the space and I I think it's very different than like what Barton is talking about in his when he used the sketch that I was talking about and then the other thing that we've done that's different here or that he has talked about is the fact of taking out a single window and putting in a double window right you can see that on my on my sketch is a good example of that right we've actually put in like a double window here and we put in a double window down there right we also um we haven't actually moved the door right part thanks for moving door we're really not and then we put oh then what we've done is we've extended this building three feet right that's that line on the left side that you can see in the bottom we're actually just taking this picture plane of the building and pushing it over 3 feet and then we extended this building six feet but we kept the character of the building really as it was I'll you as the rendering is now which I think you all have a copy of this this is rendering came with part of the um that 915 submission the second submission so it's like a little too close to me this was an earlier submission I'm just trying to say that we've really reduced it in size so this is for keeping that existing Ridge keeping that existing Dormer and then we we just D or I'm Gable I'm sorry and then we dormered that area between there that's what we really did here and then when we came to this element we added six feet to it to the left because otherwise the garage just doesn't fit okay and then I added this little skirt roof and pushed it back to scale it down again then I come up and then we wanted to scale this roof down again and that's what led us to come and put the Dormer and that's the Dormer that I'm talking about I really wouldn't mind at all if it was a shed I I I actually sort of liked it better as a shed but sometimes I get a little concerned with the sheds because they're a little bit more contemporary you know when you see the sheds are hot right now kind but that's really what we did to this house then we created a line here so that we could Define that mass you know we want to get a change in the picture plane and that didn't read that was here but just didn't read so well here but then we created that and pushed that plane in and if I look at this site before I go on and on forever the here's the corner you know like the the tennis courts for the rids club right here and you're starting to come up the hill from the four-way stop now there's a house in the corner then you come up to our house and then there's a pretty you know kind of a nice house on the corner up here as we make the turn right it's a pretty house this came to you guys not maybe about 10 years ago I think I can't remember but this is our building in here and I think it's important to this is me D sitting in the car driving with my iPhone kind of thing going on CU I like that method because I think you kind of see stuff now by driving around I like the height of a car I like a lot of what goes on in a car because I think that's how we see a lot of what's going on so I'm driving up the hill and I'm just saying this house isn't really like visible it's not like coming forward it's back about 20 ft further than this one and this is a tall house it's sitting up on the top of the hill and we've actually kept that Ridge and really really kept this building exactly as it is although we've changed the window openings right we've added and I I think bordon has a concern with those window openings although it seems to me like we'd like to get a little more light into the house and the window openings aren't really detrimental in this design it seems like it doesn't it seems to me that this building could be sitting on that street and you wouldn't know any difference I know you're going to know the difference when it goes on because you know there's 10 construction trucks in the road on Highland Avenue but I'm just saying that all of the materials I all the materials um here and you know this is a wood Shake job it's got ASAC or pine trim you know we're really migrating to ASAC now because the pine is is too weak it just deteriorates too quickly and the ASAC actually looks as good as the Pine like you wouldn't even know it's not glossy or has any of those problems and um the windows are you know P architect series with simulated device Ed lights I mean this is really a cleanup job on this house I think it's a and it's um you know it's a non-designated site I I don't think that we're do we're not raising it we're not doing this thing where we're trying to pull it Forward into the um the streetcape and kind of cause a a problem related to a structure like this one I mean this structure is always going to read us primary element on this street no matter really what we do it's very close to the road it's very tall and it's kind of at the top of the hill right my building is a little cocked on an angle to the street and it's a little shielded down in a little bit of a recess off of the site so I'm just gonna I guess go on I wanted you to look at this little streetcape I did a little movie but um I can't find it on my phone and I'm not even sure I know how to boot it here in but um also you know we have a pool adding in here the pool everything conforms in terms of zoning and I just want to give you a picture of the pool fence I guess in concept you know I was showing this plan during our uh Zoom call and this is the area where I'm talking about where we're adding 3 feet there and six feet there like we're adding a total of six foot length to this house it's all we're doing and it really is the only way that we can actually kind of fit a car into the garage so I don't think it's really a big ask or a big change on the site and you can see it here there's the 3 feet and here's the six and this is that same sketch that Barton actually was talking about this is what I was talking about at that thing and what I'm saying that we've done to it is we've really cut it back and let this area be the roof so that the this is all the same roof so that this building would look more compatible as if we put a dormer into the facade instead of modifying the whole facade and then you can see it we've taken a single window made it a double a double we this is a single this is a double we have a single and a single and I you know this is out of scale this is really down here that's why the Dormer is there but this Dormer could be you know a shed Dormer if there was a thought that the a peak makes it look a little too cute or maybe a little too vertical like it adds another vertical element as opposed to retaining this vertical element all of it better than these other schemes that we had done this one is that scheme that I wasn't really too fond of that I don't think Bart was either it just looks a little I can think of a couple houses that look like that actually but I don't think it's actually bad I mean we've left the ridge but it just seems like the the dogghouse Dormers sometimes look a little too cute to me we also had done other schemes with Barton talking on the phone back and forth right you know like here we have actually stuff up on the third floor there's none of that here we're asking really for approval for my my 40 series drawings which are which is really which is really these drawings and they uh they give us that I'm just going to go right to the but they give us that same thing where we keep our Dormer we come across and then we push up into the middle of it as we go and that's oh and then we added the skirt roof here on this because I got worried about this elevation Barton doesn't seem to be as concerned with that elevation but to me I think you almost see this elevation more as you're coming up Highland because it when you cut across the lawn of the first house of this first house here you can see that this side really clearly as you come up and that's why I wanted to get this roof into here put that line on and push this building back as we go to kind of minimize its size so anyway we had we did our Zoom call we um got a little bit of input but not a lot of input and then we kind of went on this idea to proceed and um and that's why we're here thank you can you push it back to the one that you are proposing today like where we are today yeah the 40 stuff because I think it's important that we look at that that pce this rendering is it the rendering that was below is it just we were just looking I do have a quick question because I know when when we spoke on the phone um one of the things that we talked about was um I thought correct me if I'm wrong that we were creating this big square right and you know instead of utilizing the yard that we had or the the lot that we had so my mindset was kind of still that you know you were still leaning that direction take the thickness off the front and the side of the house and kind of create well that's how we ended up to be only six feet coming across okay that's how we got there um so I myself drove and through and then kind of wrote a house I didn't have a lot of time here but um one of the houses on Highland uh which I did make copies of too was similar now don't get me wrong this is a Stone House built around this probably a little earlier than yours um but how they created multiple spaces is more of like the house which really what it is historically even though you say it's not it's not a contributing house right but it is historic so anything over 50 years old by the state is is you know can be deemed historic so it didn't have any historic significance no one lived there that was famous there wasn't a famous architect Etc but what our job is to try to keep the streetcape right as close as we can so that's why a lot of these houses they created something very unique and special to the back a lot of the houses that come in front of us today and one good example of that was and if you don't mind like to share but this is where I was actually a little and and it's a bigger house okay and they have a bigger lot but if you certainly welcome to but I think they're they strived to accomplish the same thing they had a cottage type house right and then how they created multiple spaces instead of one big box now correct me if I'm wrong if that's not originally what we had talked about is there a reason why in here you're welcome to these I also we use this no this is just just for I don't think we need it as it um I think you're familiar with that house did you design that house you did this thing no yeah this thing's been around this was a they went to the right of it but they you know they have a pool right they have they've created multiple places off so they're it's actually a creating creating a space instead of just a box and I thought that's where we were going so maybe but this is a big site this is a different site 93 under an acre no no but I just mean it's wide you know this this but this is a big but you're also deep and I understand you want yard and and stuff like that so I don't think we got F these say really don't want to let's say the existing building is there or right so I mean all I'm asking to do is go out six feet I understand that I don't think that's an issue but you're creating what one and a half one and a quarter off the back of this house so it it became like how much deeper the house right now is ending right there yeah so you're what 20 ft in the back yeah looks go 18 18 and a half feet go 20 no no I'm just saying we wrote it it's 18 and half the um I think you're asking to do something like that right like you're asking to take that block and put it there I think that's actually what Barton was asking too I was on that conversation too trying to but I mean it's not even visible from the street right just so you know understand the roof line and everything else that we were attempting to try to not go up and over but to go back and create you know create that space instead of just one square box I think you'd be less likely to want to change the facade so much of the house even though I appreciate still has to come done no matter what you do the garage has to come that way right it's the low side of the property right so I need the six feet um that's all I'm saying can [Music] I I haven't yeah I haven't driven by the house um I don't have a car right now why do we need six fet does the garage work do you have a car that goes into the garage but the garage is like 16t deep Hey listen I've got a point I can't get car in there the middle tank that's 16 is bad you know garage should be 24 feet I mean really but and I think needs today and if you're I mean I think that I don't think that's okay what about double do I got a 16t garage okay what about the double doors on front why do we need double doors on to change the front door got a double door on the front I don't I I don't need double doors on the no no I'm just saying that that's that's a it changes the front of the house right but all I'm saying all I'm saying to you is that if the problem with this case is a double or a single door I think that's an easy ask that's all I'm saying I mean I think that the moving of the mass is the problem that I I think you guys gota kind of join in a little bit more than you know that's I I I think Allison has talking about taking this block of space and putting it here kind of well be careful what I'm I'm not asking I'm not telling you how to do it well no I think you're saying you want to create a building this way and a building tea I'm saying you could have the same square footage right you could have the exact same square footage by creating more of a vision off the back right you could keep that Cottage field changes doors whatever we could I'm looking at the whole total square footage piece I I actually thought that's and forgive me if that's not what we t talked about the last time that Barton and I or I actually we were on the phone together correct during the uh facee but and you said you'd certainly look into it so if that's changed please let us you know I can comments correct me my understanding wrong actually um I I believe that that that that's true from the first uh discussion we had so afterwards we get three meeting with the Bon and I believe in the the last two meeting and we show this plan and the comments from him is like really we are not adding too much uh like six feet and uh we discuss about you know the option adding the back or like or we do the expansion on the left and I believe the comments from him is like really not like adding too much and not have too much visibility uh on the screen and um he saying you know uh it's not really matter just put the expansion in the back or you know adding on the left since we're not adding too much that's my understanding you know that that's why it's goes smooth in the zoom call and we did ask him you know should we keep this rate and he seem you know it's not fundamental change you know seems fine and also we are adding the back about 20 ft but he say you know looks like from the angle on the street it won't be were too much visibility uh for for adding the back so that's my understanding and and I'm not an architect but by making it a square the size and scale which doesn't mean me to standards which that's what's Bing Barton is saying to us now it lessens that size and scale when you push pieces as I think originally I think it was on one of the drawings that Barton Barton Barton Barton in the beginning wanted us to take this block and put it here was simply that's all he was asking us to do like that photo with the guys look on your sheet oh yeah um but to be honest you I thought he was over that to be honest with after I was in it seemed to me that he was so my well I it's probably that my client doesn't want me to to make a a big L which is kind of what you're saying like the primary building with an elf coming into it you know well they don't really want to do that because it just just going to destroy the yard destroys it okay but you're putting a poll in right so what I'm saying is I think that we've actually produced that same thing right there where we kick back now I mean you could take this block and it could I mean it could be there you know my stuff is kind of easy actually you know what I'll let the other Commissioners wait in because I think that's why you're here it's for the pool board but I'm not even sure it's Vis any of this that we're talking about even is visible from the street I you're show with really the back of a house in this thing right again I'm just for my own self I'm trying to eliminate the size and scale if there was no landscape right of the front the six feet are you talking about well as you or you talking about this side the road right so you see the side and the front of the house right I I I'm talking about I think you're talking about the side right I I'm talking about I mean I don't think you're talking six feet is like kind of di Minimus like sort of I'm not talking about I'm talking about the size and scale of the house as you see it without Landscaping but look I I pushed this on to other Commissioners too and and again if you look at neighborhood which yeah I'm pry sure if you compare with the neighborhood at the team so this is probably the smallest compare with other we took a picture from those and that is agree by B so I just I think after the first call and we have like three different uh meeting with Bon I just want to bring on the same page so yeah and I I'm sure you read Barton's recommendation so we're a little confused as to him accepting what you say he's accepting actually that's a big surprise to us and we do have the email at September 16 that's after Zoom call and we have the snapshot from the email and another two from the board they are vit on the zoom call and it was went practice mov and he agreed on the meeting he speci mention he didn't want do the L ship or a square it's not really matter for him and that's why we go for this and we expecting to be on October uh uh hearing but that was cancelled yes so we didn't change that all and and you know in paragraph three of his recommendations it does say you know uh applicant should retain front facade as much as possible shifting more of the bulk to the rear yard of the house creating more of an L-shaped uh telescope meaning not if you don't like the L take the space that you have and work with that volume because my my concern I'll just say with this is I see a roof line going above the existing roof and that's something with a non-contributing uh element to to a district we talk about that all exterior element all exteror elevations including the roof must be maintained but you've gone above that at least that's how it looks from the plant right no we held that existing Ridge but you have something going above behind oh behind yeah I don't know Barton is agreeing that that is not visible from the street say he's not even concerned about that exceeds your elevation your roof right so I I don't understand that I think you can take that and that's that right and drop it down by pushing it back yeah that's what we did and actually C but they're asking you to do something different they're asking you to to take this Mass take this mass and put it here well not and then the deck is probably gonna go there not necessarily an L I don't know having that piece there maintain the front elevation don't take the six feet outside well I don't know I I I think that I think that there's pretty much besides you I think everybody else pretty much thinks the six Feet's okay well I'm just saying it doesn't maintain the front elevation I agree with you but I mean it's 16 and it's not differentiated either it it's all Blended together as if that was the normal this is not this is not a designated site but it's still talking about maintain I'm reading the right no but let's let's really think about this a second it doesn't make sense to put a six- foot contemporary addition on to house like this no but you have to that's not the intent no intent to differentiate it either it's all Blended together it's better that it's bunded together in this case that's not consistent with the regular it's not consistent when the addition becomes more than 50% of the volume of the building that's what's going on but we don't have that kind of an addition we're saying a six foot addition to the width of the building it doesn't make sense to do it in you know B and Baton or something it's ridiculous I mean ridiculous that elevation was always the that's right that's right but that's not the case no but it but this is this is an infill house built 1941 sure it's a much smarter solution right I understand it's a much smarter solution but it's not it's not consistent with the the guidelines that we the guidelines guidelines that you're talking about are for a designated site no I'm talking I'm actually I'm referencing the specific guidelines for non contributing owns is this a guideline from our district well then then you guys have written a a very you guys have written a very silly guideline that should be revised these are the only guidelines those gu let me just tell you that those guidelines are for designated sites if you look at the national you understand how silly what you're saying sounds I'm it may be silly but that's what it as chair let let me clarify this the only reason and again that 50y year mark the last time a survey was done in 1978 okay so when you call it an infill house right probably it's an infill in 19 1941 75% of the houses that are up today are infill houses but here's you're in a designated District the house is over 50 years old and was built in 1941 and is recognized as historic so please understand just because the last survey was done we can follow these guidelines of any house over 50 years old by the state okay so what we're saying is we want to work with you we really do we want you to understand what we have to work with and I think it's much more than an infill house okay I think there were two of them that were built later there's one historic again I did the same for you guys I took a photograph of the map and you will see where your house was I should have taken the one where the only the one that the big one was the only one that took up that whole block until they subdivided okay but again that subdivision happened what how many years ago I can't do the math very it happened in 1940 right 41 so well it was built in 41 right that it happened in 1940 but it's a you know it's it's again respecting the periods of time right and what we're trying to do is we're trying to be good stewards I know we hate that word we're trying to be good stewards of this infil house that was built in 1941 that is historic and we're trying to move the mass of that right to the back of this house we do understand the square house is easier and it you know getting around and stuff but I think what you need to look at is is there too much square footage for this particular lot because you're in you're in a historic district now if you don't want to give up some of the yard right um if you want to keep the pool if you look at those photos and how they put various sections of the house the square footage is quite large right it's how it's placed on the lot now I'm not going to argue about the six feet um but having it all one material across the front that's what gives it more of a contemporary look the shed roof because you're trying to up the center gives it more of a contemporary look it's not really keeping with this cottage style type house now look I'm only one so please anyone who would like to speak up uh please do so that's um maybe I before other have comments I just have a quick response and m i I appreciate your comments uh but I'll be very honest with you uh the thing is that really I feel very frustrated is like we have a zoom call and I'm presser Mr Bon is expert in this area and regarding the guideline I'm PR sure he's very familiar and on the zoom call another two gentlemen is on on the call and they all agree we have the email agree and that's why we move forward but the thing is that overnight the decision changed you saw the comment from Mr Barton and they go back one Z after five months so that's I really frustrated and I respect your opinion I respect you know that that non distribut or distribut I respect that much in the beginning when I kick off I said you are part of the family I respect that I work with you you a long history but today tonight I really feel frustrated when I saw uh Mr Bon email you know he against himself I feel very frustrated I'm a professional in other areas I think this way I don't know what happened overnight they stand me the decision in the last minutes is not professional that's my feeling I got not be wrong right and and I could see how you and unfortunately barttin is not here with us this evening I hope right and I understand your frustration um and I can only go by with the meetings that I was present for and the information that barttin has written today he's still asking for and don't think I again I'm I think you're both probably we're both some very good people here be honest I realize that I realize that yes thank you yeah was a long time here you know I do know years P the by Tim I think in and if I'm wrong but we all I think Barton has always said exactly what he doesn't want me to do anything to the front of the building probably or you don't really want me to do anything to the front of the building be honest even though we added the six more feet that building is still the smallest building in the street you can see it's the smallest maybe some clarification here is you know I don't know how the other Commissioners feel but that six feet I don't think that we're objecting to the six feed to front it's some of the other roof lines and all that where I'm saying be more creative from that you don't want the building to be so thick that's all you're saying you don't want it to be so thick I exactly but also keep in mind the sun sets in the front of your house I'm not opposed to the bigger Windows except that I think again you're eliminating what is historic right when you go to the back of the house and open that up and create more light you're doing you're being a good Steward of what was there and you're creating exactly what you want you know what I mean into the back keeping being conscious of the roof lines and not overpowering you know the house in the front um maybe you can better explain no I think we got it to be honest I mean I think that's what I've always heard Barton say and I apologize first of all that Barton isn't here to explain what happened to us and and what you agreed or not so this is all we have to go by right it's unfair to you um because Barton approved that plan that's why we read meeting we win mon by mon by mon yeah also you you I sort of have a rule I don't want to go to a meeting if Barton hasn't given me a favorable report because it's too much stress for me I just don't like it yeah so the only reason why we submitted to come was actually because I got a favorable report on the 16th he told me to submit right no comments go ahead and submit it's the only reason why we're here again I think there's only two reasons it's like a waste of everybody's time right um and that I can't speak on and I apologize for that but I think there's two reasons why Barton would send you to the full board right is that he's accepting of this plan or you're not changing anything that he's asking of you so we don't have the answer to that at this very well I do I mean I got the email he says it okay there's no more comments you get to go to the board yeah but no more comments doesn't mean maybe he feels like he knows the way I want to play this game I told them very clearly exactly what I want to do I I do not want to come in front of this board if I don't have a approval from him it's not worth my time we didn't hear from from Barton until we got that thing in the mail right yeah so so I didn't that's okay we because we have to go by what he wrote us right so so I think at this point there's need clarification on that right but I'm really asking is so is that what we're doing we're we we're we're not going to vote on this case as it sits because because we're not going to be able to get approval well again is that what we're asking to do or do we want I'm fine revising and coming back well I think that we can easily revise it come back but it's going to be a very different year to C with of you know hasn't really changed his mind about what he told us he Wass yeah right so so so let's keep first of all I'm again I'm one person so I'm not sure how the rest of the board will vote if you want us to vote tonight I don't know ask my what everybody's thinking or would you like to get clarification I I certainly would of what Barton approved and didn't approve but I don't think it really matters what he approved or didn't approved because he wrote a report that he didn't approve right he changed his mind and we I hope not a beautiful building no we will not make any trouble to anybody yeah they don't mean it that way get we know they know you're not g yeah we know you're doing you're absolutely trying to do the right thing and unfortunately I mean I think we have to postpone right I don't know what else to do unless if we think we can get a positive vote which my advice unless everyone would like to make a comment how they're feeling right now so they know because that way I was not part of the initial conversation so I that those were just conceptual so this this is the actual so I just curious for the September zo court is official one or conceptual it's a con conceptual it's not a regul it's not a regulatory hearing it's just like a they were they were there we were there to give you our advice on what you were thinking so that you could come to us with something that but I think it's important to do the reference right that reference well I think it was bad for us because it produced the wrong maybe because it wasn't well enough attended and it didn't produce a a definitive Direction I guess it's it's like it was it wasn't really we should have had another's invol or something really right with everybody in I think that's really what is going on here no I I need a clear Direction I don't want spend half a year I know I can work this out with work but I know what it's going to look like this piece is going to go over here the building is going to go like that I me Tim he does say l or telescopic well I don't understand what's it between telescopic and L was it do you know what the difference is an L is an L what's a telescopic telescoping is is a t no it's produc it get tryle that sounds ridiculous like a block and a block and a block well that's the same thing because then you're not seeing that massing the street like are you saying to me if I pull this in 10 feet you're fine with it is that where we are I wouldn't say is that telescopic like bing bing bing bing I don't know I think he's giving you room to work in fact does that look telescopic when I say that is that what telescope is an extended that's what I think extended two right so it's long right it's like an L it's not like L is an L telescop slight reduction not 10et well you can't take a building I mean or you could do all these silly little additions like the thing was show me where it looks like somebody did one in 2 and somebody else did one in 75 and then somebody got somebody got pregnant and they put another one on in 8 88 that's what that that's what that building looks like to me you know and then the kid got married and they added on again will I have a book there's a book in Nantucket that says don't do that that you just showed me Nantucket wrote the first historic restoration book and it specifically says all these little Lily bumps the idea of I mean I could see this going here Mak sense this shows this Mass I could see maybe telling me that that should be increased to do it which is going to really push it there I mean that makes sense because then we show but we kind of did that because we show that building on the side right now so Tim I can we already we can't assign this okay so we're trying desperately to to get you to I I know please forgive me but what Barton has said and what I can vouch is that he has said this from day one is exactly I agree with you 100% or he doesn't want me to touch the facade of the building think of the one on Chestnut yeah he liked it because we didn't touch the facade of the building so even though it was a disgusting facade on that building but we don't have the right to say you know that it was disgusting right it was a period of time it was an architecture it was like a a bad 50s job and I think as we I had a a senior partner in my first office he said he said something to me about a really bad building on a college campus for walking at in at NYU and I said at least I wasn't practic architecture when that was going on he actually was I mean there's some bad stuff that occurred there was and and but I can also tell you that having a house that is more back okay that isn't historic keeping in other words as we add to these houses um because the additions typically happened that way they did they were they were additive as they needed space but today today as you know today's living we want this big square box thicker thicker house and more square footage and you know higher ceilings and all this other stuff so I I do understand what you're trying to do here I think we can still accomplish the same square footage if you know you push this house and I want to say we we try to avoid any variant es whatsoever and we we lose good architecture we're here to help you if you need a variance for this property to give you a little more leeway here and there okay this property the board of adjustment doesn't see it that way just so you know we are working the board of adjustment says to me if I hear one more time that the historic commission approved this you know it's I just want you to know I see you know I see all sides of all of this from many different towns I come to boards three nights a week that's like my job but we also have many success stories of supporting applications on Highland because a lot of these properties in this historic districts have been subdivided and they show leeway with some of these properties when you have buildings already that are literally two feet off the property line because it was subdivided so they understand that okay so what I'm saying is don't give up good architecture just to avoid a variance I think that's one of my biggest P so I think that's a discussion for Craig and you well I don't think that's a discussion for us I'll talk to Craig I think Craig is the guy I've talked to Craig but he's supported us in many applications so just so you now so again what I'd like to do is get some clarification what I'd like to do is get moving on this as soon as possible so you guys can come if you're willing unless my commission today is willing to accept can anyone help me Brad or no I agree I think we need clarification from bar because there's obviously some mixed signals like he did approve something something and then he gives report that's not approving so like I need I think we need that clarification I don't feel comfortable voting on it until Barton's able to speak from this view right and I know you guys have spent a lot of time on this so what I can promise you is we will move this fastpac well let's go for the December hearing right no I can not agree you just wish us time and money again and again in the tree house so what would you like us to vote I don't think we can have them vote because if they vote and they deny it we have to come back and start all over at least now we're in the we're in like the ballpark appreciate that your best guy here to have us again again again I'm sorry what are you saying it's okay it's not I think we should I think we have to of money lot of but I think we have to I don't know why we have to just go to December uh sorry for for this but uh again I said it's really frustrated for us and something happened behind on the table yes overnight the decision changed and I GA you know I need to find out you know it's I a um again I I appreciate your comments the committee supposed to work for the resident not is a individual decision and it shouldn't be something on the table that's why we all work here I can tell you I take overnight flight and I arrive here like 10:00 and tomorrow 3:00 a.m. I have to fly back years old child with outside the whole and I'm resence of this town I shouldn't you know and and through this you know and I cooperate 100% but over we go back to ground theread so it's not fair from my point of view I know you are all professional and I I'm really sorry my life GA emotional but you can say it's not easy for us we are a family we are the residents I ga three years Cas and is taken care by my black another daughter and we are all here you know and again and I guess what what I could use maybe yes is maybe um maybe two of you or something me and Barton on the phone maybe I don't know for a zoom call that are kind of Really Gonna you know be able to make a decision a little bit because it's it's hard for me to to get Boron a little bit sometimes what I'd like you to do is first of all because it is and and I I don't disagree with the emotion this is your biggest purchase this is what you're trying to do I I also want you to know that many people that come in front of us especially on a renovation of this size will come in front of us Within multiple times and sometimes take mulle months right if a fair is a consistent that's why I we keep on moving to improve it right but this case is different it's so fishy it goes to 180 degre back to the r River but this is your first regulatory standing in front of us correct Jim yeah okay but that's only because we were kind of pushed off kind of a little just so in in July we were pushed we were gonna come in July and then we were going to come in August right yeah yeah and then September canceled or no canell and then October it was cancelled I guess so that's how it kind of just got pushed I guess because of that right but we are here to and I can commit to you that we will move forward quickly get you slated for the December meeting if that's what you would like no I would not like okay so would you like us I think we got to do that we don't have a choice we have to listen that's a big problem we need to add this ground way but there is no space that's just that's just showing you trying to show you all the additions on the back of the house which to me looks like hodge podge I would say bing bing bing bing oh so we need ating area I can see the whole thing record it's recorded yes record everything that's why I say what I say I think we have to come back on the fifth care Tim for us why don't you kind of step outside and decide what you'd like us to do here knowing that if you force us it sounds like to vote tonight we can't with the report that we have or what we feel about this house so you want to let us know is that okay that would be the fair is if you'd like to take a few minutes yeah yeah just do I'll do it quick in the hallway is that okay or are you cool with the December 5th okay come on outside I'll do it recess here I don't think um guess we could look at the consent agenda items okay so the board's received uh the minor work review applications are there any questions or comments consent review items also does does everyone appreciate getting them is that that's something new that we hadn't done in the past but it let you know what we the minor work reviews been doing for the past several months minor applications for you know it's comments so ask a question yes obviously you guys at least maybe the call different projects that we've been presented I've been around for a long time in the old days we all used to be we we used to you're right and quite frankly Mr gross seems very dumb to and he's not going to change his well first of all let's talk about the occation they're not here yeah but but what we can do I can answer the first part of that for you and people were more apt to accept the fact that we were going and you know onsite and all this so now we're actually either myself or baring you know before meeting and Reporting back it was um some comments were made about a group of people all at various times because of security now in the neighborhood so we've kind of limited it to one person it's not like we have credentials so I always knock on the door and say I'm here start we always used to do that too yeah but it's a little more now with h crime and all this they really I can appreciate that but certainly in this past year I've not been the person who's been around to do that stuff um but I don't know you're more of a visual I feel left out understand I I I do and um I'm not sure yet how to resolve that but that's something we can discuss you know to try to figure out how maybe you're more involved and certainly everybody has the opportunity to volunteer for the minor work review um and that's a really quick way to understand what's happening in the neighborhood that's done by phone so done by phone uh pretty much or email but if we have to meet with say you know someone who has additional questions or would like to meet with the minor work review that's what they're talking about um but I think it's a good opportunity especially to understand first of all how many applications we do get in a month's time right um you know how many hours are spent seven in there yeah and those are seven that we don't have to hear before the full commission that's the beauty of the minor work I think that's wonderful but and they're nine out of 10 of them are approved within a week so but there was always a minor we got something that was a minor thing we go out and look at it yeah you you like your what you're going to change the the windows to or you like what you're going to change the but I don't think that was really I think you have to have a group or right one person can't make that but it was but you didn't have to come to it you didn't have to come to yeah just you know you kind of called whoever chairman was and said hey it's good you know well no he's you know we like but he's gonna he's gonna put party plank on okay sorry no that's okay you lost I I guess I did I didn't know okay we want to push till December okay fifth right it's the fifth it is the fifth okay and and also uh again uh you know we want clear direction from this meeting and they are going to cooperate and also last we don't feel comfortable is like our agent and she's a former mayor here and she personally told us she has some influence on on this kind of decision I don't believe that's true because we all professional here and we want to be clear go to professionally I we don't want to say something at the table it it's an impression for me if you like a standing in my shoes you will feel same way you know we want to be fair to each other and I'm going to be a resident for years yes so that that's all I want to say so uh Tim um I can stand here guaranteeing you we will follow up with this and Clarity uh we will get with Barton like I'd like to it's a I I don't want to throw Barton under the bus because he's a really nice guy don't get me wrong but sometimes he's driving around in the car when I'm trying to talk to him and he's not paying like I don't kind of need a little bit of a like almost like a meeting well on Tuesday you have my word that if we could would be the best going we we hope if you feel comfortable then you will come in front of us on December 3rd and we can our fth and and also I I I I appreciate your comments you know the concern is really not the six feet we're adding you know and we are not doing a crazy SC for this building we are trying to you know make it reasonable and you know we we can move to the back but the thing is we have to work it out yeah we will definitely have that worked out by the time you've come in front of the committee again you've heard the comment of some of the committee members can I send you and Barton an email maybe don't just us is that right first thing in the morning I will follow up with Barton because I only bug Barton on Tuesdays yeah but you know what I mean we're gonna prioritize this so you know I gotta ask him to you know like have a call or something at 10 o'clock on we'll prioritize this for sure okay okay um and then December 5th okay give us give us one more month to prove ourselves here um remain flexible here and we will uh we'll move forward okay you know almost I appreciate all your time [Laughter] yeah well we really appreciate it we appreciate all the times you've come in front of us we're sorry we're sorry and please don't sorry PR woman here I'm really respecting you thank you thank you please please understand we're not we we're not doing this on purpose and we are we are definitely goingon to get to the bottom of this and figure out how we get that Healy okay all right we still welcome you you cannot get rid of me blue now right okay all right thank you so much thank you for your time so this is Carri without any further public notice to December meting thank you perfect okay thank you um so now as far as discussion items just real quickly um starting in 2025 um I that with Dan cat but I'd like to ask for some volunteers uh to do some of the education and Outreach I'd love to have one more person um and that would be to work with the society uh kind of t with the society figure out what we can do for residents that live in um historic houses that aren't in historic districts to help educate them on uh history that was written about various neighborhoods or um churches uh you know trying to figure out then how to help people understand what we do in the history and the fun uh one fun option that someone had mentioned was actually doing a history or report of people's houses so basically if you want to you would put you know your name in and we how the society would work is help us come up with a book talking about whether your house is a contributor or non-contributing what the property was prior to that house being there uh for instance if you had a non-contributing house uh what did it belong to what farm did it belong to what how did that all shake out and I think that's a fun way because to me to this day and I do it all the time and I'm sure you do as an archaeologist is it's like a surprise I'm I'm baffled by some of the things that I didn't even know existed and the deeper you dive it's like amazing you had no idea so that would be a fun project and I certainly want to be involved in it and again if you'd like to join me and maybe if somebody else would like to support that too um now Janine Logistics on the executive session do we need to adjourn or is that closed door um we need to just adjourn the public meeting and go into a Clos session okay um and I don't really think we need to come back since the agenda is over and we'll just be done can adjourn the um okay so this concludes the meeting um I move to adjourn and go into public go into executive session and go into executive session third four