##VIDEO ID:4CqBJQuWltA## you in accordance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 the advis that a notice of the special meeting was made by mailing to the officially designated newspapers posting town hall and our website a list uh of the meeting dates indicating that this special meeting would take place at the Town Hall at 7:30 p.m. on Wednesday November 13 202 for coryer here Alison camfield here Michael C here n here Frank s here DJ here David cos here Michael Zion here Vice Shar y here um first welcome back to our secretary Eileen thank you we missed you last week um and we move on our first order of business uh the approval of the minutes of September 18th 2024 a revised Blackline version was uh sent out today incorporating comments received um did anybody have any further comments that they wanted to raise uh I move to approve the minutes of September 18th second all in favor I opposed and assume if anybody missed they would abstain minutes of 9:18 are approved we have two memorializations tonight the first one application 24002 that 288 Maine I believe Council you had a clarification to make on The memorialization Well actually uh a two items one on uh page one number three uh the word in the middle of a design waiver to permit the preposed it should be Pro proposed it's an O instead of an e there my typo my apology uh and actually the other item what of our board members had uh had a question but was resolved and to that board member's uh satisfaction with respect to uh the condition relating to the number of trees it uh was at least two Street trees on site and either provide additional trees on site as deemed necessary for board professionals or furnish the contribution of L the uh so that particular condition is is correct and U unless any other board members have a question about it the board member raise a question is satisfy great thank you so with that said it's only the change to the o e the and all board professionals and applicants professionals reviewed and commented proposed Vision thank you uh I move to approve the memorialization of 288 m a second have yes alfield yes Michael Cen yes z n yes Frank sing yes David cos yes Michael Zion yes yes yes yes thank you and our second order of Mor realizations is application 24004 that was concierge Pediatrics uh on Morris Turnpike and I believe you had received no additional comments on that no additional comments again as with all our resolutions all our board professionals wait wait in and uh the applicants councel and the app pro through applicants Council we did as well so hopefully t memorialization of the board's decision thank you uh I move to approve Jo the second second yes Cory biller yes Alison camfield yes Michael Cohen yes de NIS yes thank yes David cro yes Michael yes yes thank you okay oh good reminder to silence our cell phones um as we move into our applications and we have just the one application this evening uh the matter that was carried this is application 24003 High Center for living Judaism um I welcome you back okay Michael you're back okay sorry hope you stepped out you're great know was on silent it's an emergency context come through but it's okay okay you're fine great just before we start I just listen to the meeting yes she had testified last last have certification purose thank you uh good evening welcome back thank you very much Madam chair one members of the board good evening I'm Michael line with Fox wild tra here this evening on behalf of the applicant the high Center for living Judaism uh 165 Short Hills Road 2306 slot 11 um uh applican is seeking conditional use approval and preliminary final site plan approval for its house and worship at this location um we've heard uh testimony from the civil engineer both at our first hearing on September 18th as well as last week on on November 6th um we also uh got at least as far as introducing our traffic uh expert to you folks got him sworn in identified and qualified to testify as an expert in the area of um traffic engineering um so clearly that's where we'd like to pick up up uh this evening I'll call Andrew back up Andrew I'll remember I'll remind you that you remain under oath and on Andrew's way back up if I could just take a moment to just cover for members of the public uh the the order um of how we conduct meetings if it's uh somebody's first or or newer to planning board meetings um we call up uh the applicant we'll call up a variety of witnesses after each witness provides their testimony um tonight we'll be hearing from uh Mr vishio as just mentioned their traffic engineer um the typically the board has the first opportunity to ask questions because um tonight the board has um taken under the services of our own traffic engineer to do sort of a a review of the of the um clients the applicants uh traffic engineer we'll will allow our traffic engineer to sort of ask any questions or followup that are not yet responded to um Then followed by board questions and any other professionals who may have questions from the traffic engineer following that discussion we open it up to questions from members of the public for the witness so these will be related to the traffic at the site um that is what we hope to get through tonight tonight would and then following the end of all the witnesses doing similar um without probably the board professional the witnesses provide a testimony the board asks professionals ask and then the public ask asked questions following all of those witnesses there will be time for public testimony at which people will come up get sworn in and uh can provide a testimony so tonight is just traffic engineering and questions pertaining to the traffic at the site well if if I may we certainly have other Witnesses here who are prepared and ready to go and and are hopeful uh that we'll get a chance to hear from um some if not all of them but we'll take that as it comes thanks for allowing me to just through the process absolutely 100% And we found it was very helpful last time there was a secr microphone that our testifying winess could have do we have the benefit of that again this evening Alison knows where it is now there I think the experts here thank you yes that was useful I without you there was a 15 minute scavenger hunt last time probably on video there was one that didn't work hopefully I didn't hurt anyone's ears so Andrew were you a tasked with provide performing a traffic impact analysis with respect to this proposed application yes I was if you could I'd like uh for you uh to review with the board and members of the public uh how you went about that analysis kind of the the parameters that were important for you to bear in mind um how you conducted it and what uh what in general your findings were in connection with that report absolutely thank you I'm going to take a walk over here uh and utilize exhibit C1 um and if I may for a record that that's exhibit C1 was marked as applicants A1 at the last hearing uh just to briefly again uh uh familiarize everyone with this exhibit it illustrates the proposed site plan that has incorporated a series of suggestions based on uh the board's professionals uh their feedback um it was presented at the last hearing um this is not new to this evening so on behalf of the applicant we submitted a traffic impact study dated uh August 14th um another deliverable of ours submission of ours was a response letter uh uh in response to the traffic review letter that was prepared by Bright View engineer um that response letter is dated October 24th 2024 um the uh Bri view engineering uh uh for the public again is the um the independent or uh reviewing traffic engineer retained by the board um so I want to start um Andrew I'm sorry pardon me for interrupting the October 24th uh report that you referred to is that the the Bright View engineering uh report let me just make make sure I have my dates correct that might be the letter of the Bright View engineering that might be the date of the Bright View engineering and sub to that did Stonefield prepare a responsive uh report that is correct I apologize for getting the responsive is November 6 I believe correct that's correct thank you for that um so what is being proposed uh Illustrated here on the the center of the screen is an approximately 21,000 square foot building um it would function as a primarily as a synagogue and a nursery school um the synagogue would total approximately 13,000 square feet of floor area and the nursery school would total approximately 8,000 square feet of floor area the building would be supported by 95 physical parking spaces that is the same number of parking spaces on this latest layout um as were proposed in the initial uh layout um to calculate the amount of new trips uh that would be generated by this development the amount of traffic that would be generated by the development we had an extensive dialogue with the applicant to gain an understanding of how the proposed building would be used and then we cross referenced all of that information against industry standard um information specifically The Institute of Transportation Engineers trip generation manual um so uh let me Begin by describing um the uh synagogue portion of the development services would be held uh Friday evenings generally 7:00 P p.m. to 8:00 P.M with approximately 20 people attending Saturday morning Services would occur from 9:30 a.m. to noon with approximately 35 family units attending Sunday morning Services 8:30 a.m. to noon uh approximately 20 people attending uh roughly equivalent to Friday evening uh and people would be driving to these services not walking we then ran the trip generation calculations for an approximately 13,000 square foot synagogue and compared line by line for each of the peak hours uh the the number of people estimated based on our conversations with the applicant and the IT data and Ed the higher of those two for each peak hour um skipping ahead a little bit we studied four peak hours industry and standard data is only available for um two of those peak hours um moving along to the nursery school the applicant hopes to open a nursery school that would eventually have 50 Children um however uh it is very likely that it would take several years to achieve that number nevertheless that is what our calculations are based on um it would operate from 9:00 am to 2 PM uh again we ran the it trip generation calculations for a nursery school based on the size of the building um we anticipate a significant number of siblings would be uh dropped off to the nursery school uh within one vehicle so we refined the uh industry stand data based on the square footage of the building to account for that high percentage of carpooling so to speak um uh in conversations with the reviewing traffic engineer um he suggested that we also run calculations not simply based on the size of the building but the uh the 50 student count um and based on 50 students the trip generation uh that is calculated was actually lower than what we used in the report so I can conclude that the the the values that we used for the nursery school component of the report are uh conservative in my opinion I thought for interrupting Madam chair but if I may the uh you said 9 to2 for the nursery school what day is Monday through Friday thank you and just by way of of clarification um the uh alternative uh methodology that you employed that was suggested by the board's uh consultant uh is more conservative uh than your underlying assumptions taking into consideration The Sibling assumption that you described earlier or no uh the reverse our initial calculations based on the size of the building plus the sibling percentage was actually higher than the running the calculations simply based on Nursery School of 50 students thank you um So based on the uh operations that I detailed uh previously the hours that we studied um there are four of them weekday morning from 8:30 a.m. to 9:30 a.m. weekday afternoon 1:30 p.m. to 2:30 p.m. Friday evening 6:00 p.m. to 700 p.m. and Saturday midday 12:00 p.m. to 1 p.m. Andrew why were those particular study times selected for for purposes of preparing your study they align with the uh expected uh operational hours of the services um the religious Services uh being held at the synagogue and the nursery school hours of operation um other secondary activities will take place in the building but they will be of a far less scale um and uh would take place during um very much off peak hours so some examples of that are a uh Hebrew school that would occur once a week on Sunday from 10: a.m. to noon uh the applicant anticipates 50 students might uh attend this class um teen events are anticipated to occur twice a month with approximately 20 part participants um and those are typically on Sunday afternoons um and adult education would occur once a week Wednesday evenings from 7:30 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. again these events would take place on Sundays or significantly be off peak have very few attendees um so we felt that our for analysis periods covered uh when Peak operations of this of this proposed development uh would occur um just repeat what those hours were sure um the study hours correct 8:30 a.m. to 9:30 a.m. 1 1:30 p.m. to 2:30 p.m. 6:00 p.m. to 700 p.m. and 12:00 p.m. to 1 p.m. and that those are the hours utilized in the most recent traffic analysis that was submitted to the board and its professionals the one dated November 6 correct um okay so uh pardon me for for elaborating on this a little bit at length but I I think it um is helpful and might answer a lot of the questions that the public might have um so like other Jewish houses of worship in the town the the applicant does not anticipate hosting receptions for Life celebrations or funerals um only approximately five Bar Mitzvah Bar Mitzvah or bot Mitzvah are expected per year at the synagogue um that cere ceremony is typically held during regular Sunday service um and approximately 10 more family units May attend as compared to regular service um only approximately five brisk ceremonies are expected per year at the synagogue um they typically occur at the parents home um which is why that number is low um the ceremony is typically held on Sundays or uh weekday mornings um and finally um attendance for the high holy days um so you're looking at rashash and yam kapor could reach 300 people um again those are essentially only two days um and the applicant is willing to consult with the Township Police Department um to determine um if any traffic mitigation or assistance might be necessary for those two days um okay yes apologize uh so moving along to the location of the project um the site is located at the southwest corner of the unsignalized intersection of old short Hills Road with parsonage Hill Road the site was formerly occupied by a resident which which was demolished earlier this year um was and still is uh accessed via one driveway along Old Short Hills Road and one driveway along parsonage Hill Road both roadways are County roadways however old Short Hills Road is under Municipal jurisdiction south of the intersection old Short Hills Road carries approximately 20,000 total vehicles on a typical weekday it covers significantly less traffic over the weekend um Sunday Saturday volumes are 19% less than a typical weekday Sunday volumes are 27% less than a typical weekday parsonage Hill Road carries about a third of the traffic that old Short Hills Road carries um on street parking is prohibited uh along both roadways speed limit for both roadways is 35 miles hour sidewalk is not provided along parsonage Hill Road there are pedestrian paths as you travel uh along the Westerly side of old Hill old Short Hills Road South of parsonage Hill Road it's generally intermittent um and uh the formal concrete sidewalk generally picks up again around Hobart Avenue um these uh old Short Hills Road and parsonage Hill Road uh intersect at an unsignalized T intersection although there is a residential driveway on the east side of the intersection um old Short Hills Road is approximately 30 feet wide uh south of parsonage Hill Road um based on field observations there are some instances when a Northbound vehicle is waiting to make a left turn onto um onto Parson Hill Road that Northbound vehicles can pass that that vehicle uh waiting to make the turn but uh more often than not uh a vehicle waiting to make a left turn stops all Northbound traffic uh regarding the eastbound approach of parsonage Hill Road to the intersection um the eastbound Lane flares to about 20 feet 24 feet wide at the Stop Bar um drivers need to stop past the Stop Bar to be able to see um uh uh North and South along the roadway and determine if it's safe for them to accept the Gap and enter the uh flow of traffic this um oh the the the importance of of bringing up the the flared approach of the eastbound approach is that it essentially serves as a small de facto left turn lane for eastbound traffic where uh even if two vehicles are waiting to make an eastbound left turn uh onto Old Short Hills Road uh motorists making a right turn onto Old Short Hills Road can pass those vehicles um so that allows the geometry of the intersection to process many more Vehicles as compared to a strictly single Lane approach um finally pedestrian accommodations at the intersection are limited to a single Ada ramp at the uh corner of the subject property um so regarding the details and and um methodology of our traffic impact study um we have been working closely with the Township's uh traffic uh engineering consultant to uh address uh his concerns and and um comments raised in the review letter um the primary change from the submitted traffic impact study and the most recently submitted uh response letter is Shifting the study hours to better align with the operations of the proposed house of worship um the peak operating hours of the proposed house of worship do not align with the commuter peak hours on the adjacent roadways um to illustrate that the roadway peak hour in the morning is 8:00 am to 9:00 am. whereas the uh based on the operations of the nursery school and uh some modest flexibility of of when parents can uh uh drop off their children or pick up their children the weekday morning peak hour was selected to be for analysis purposes 8:30 a.m. to 9:30 a.m. so about a half hour shift um the other peak hours are significantly uh uh shifted even more um the weekday afternoon roadway peak hour is 300 P.M to 4 p.m. however again the nursery school would end at 2 pm so we studied 1:30 P.M to 2:30 p.m. Friday evening the roadway um that the roadways and the intersection itself Peaks from 4 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. uh we studied 6: PM to 7 PM for our analysis so much after that and then the roadway peak hour for Saturday midday is 11:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. uh whereas uh we studied 12:00 pm to 1M based on when Saturday Services would conclude so because of that shift in the study peak hours um uh our revised analysis is reflecting acceptable levels of service in both the existing and future condition for all of the time periods with the exception of the weekday morning time period period that 8:30 a.m. to 9:30 a.m. which is when we're calculating that the eastbound approach would operate under capacity constraints not just in the future condition but today um so to investigate that further we we conducted what is called a gap availability study uh whereby we reviewed video um that was collected uh for the purpose of counting TR cars through the intersection uh and Quantified the number of gaps that are available for both left turns and right turns even though the uh intersection is calculated to operate under capacity constraints based on the software modeling used there are ample gaps in traffic for additional traffic uh there are are ample gaps in traffic for additional trips that are generated by the proposed development um the reason we're seeing um uh an adequacy of gaps uh as as compared to a situation where uh our analysis results are indicating the intersection is operating at capacity constraints is uh likely due to two factors um uh motorists accepting uh smaller gaps in traffic than the National Standard that is used for the analysis uh and also platooning of platooning of vehicles um due to upstream and downstream intersections uh which uh create artificial gaps in traffic um that helps incre can you just officially Define what you mean by a gap okay absolutely so a gap in traffic means a period in time in which there are no conflicting movements so if I am waiting to make a right turn at an intersection um I have to look to my left and the time between vehicles uh approaching uh my vehicle that is the that is the gap and when a gap is generally on the order of six seconds that is adequate to be able to make a turn so we essentially review the video and counted the number of six second gaps plus or minus depending on the turn that we studied um looking back onto the site um the site would provide 95 physical parking spaces which meets the parking requirement for this site after taking credit for the uh Electrical uh the electric vehicle charging spaces um the access is proposed via one full movement driveway along Parson a chill Road and one egress only driveway along Old Short Hills Road um recent improvements to the site plan have relocated the driveway along parsonage Hill Road as far west as is feasible uh which uh would significantly limit the impact that queuing might have on the driveway operations as compared to where the existing driveway is and the initially proposed location of the driveway and excuse me Andrew and your professional opinion was that a beneficial modification to the site plan do you feel that the traffic will circulate more efficiently as a result of that change significantly and was that change also consistent with any recommendations that the board's traffic consultant uh made uh in that regard correct um regarding the the board's traffic engineer uh uh the review letter um there were a number of comments uh pertaining to um mutcd compliance and Ada design compliance um we can agree to comply with uh all of those comments um so to summarize Andrew if I may so the the November 6 letter that we' submitted electronically to the board we also had hard copies available for distribution uh last time does that indicate those kind of item by item if you will those areas where the board sorry the applicant confirms its its stipulation to comply with the applicable recommendation correct so to summarize my direct testimony um we have made every effort to understand uh all the components of the proposed use um we have been closely coordinating with the Township's reviewing traffic engineer to ensure our analysis meets his guidelines um you're confident that this development will not have a significant impact on the operations of the adjacent roadway network based on the low trip generation of each component of the development and the fact that the hours uh do not Peak at the same time as the uh commuter roadway peak hours or or the adjacent roadways peak hours um so that concludes my direct testimony I'd be happy to answer any questions uh that the board and its professionals may have thank you okay thank you so we'll first invite Mr Mr Fishinger um we had you sworn in last time correct I I believe so yes I expect he's gonna ask questions now but certainly he's free to testify as well that's fine and if you just introduce yourself again sure and Joseph Fishinger with Bright View engineering so Andrew just a few questions um and for the board's information we have been going back and forth with a lot of these technical issues um including he provided Ed me with a link to the vid the the video that was taken for the recording so I did have an opportunity to review that prior to the hearing that was the Gap analysis video yes which incidentally and Mr Visio can correct me if I'm wrong that's the same video that's used to collect the traffic data they put a camera out let it record all day and then count how many cars go by um as far just a couple of questions I'm going to go backwards first um so with regard to the various sign and the mutcd and Ada clarifications you're agreeable to work with either my office or the township engineer to address that to our satisfaction and for the board's edification there's still a number of minor issues where maybe the sign's not in the right in the perfect spot or it's pointed the wrong way or they're referencing the wrong sign detail nothing that's going to change the project in any significant way but we just want to make sure that they get done right um as far as the number of students with the nursery school um first question do you know the ages of those students is this infants how what what's the age range for those pre kindergarten so less than under four yes okay and since you based your analysis on the updated analysis considered a 50 student maximum are you agreeable to a condition should the board approve the application that the nursery school would be limited to 50 students I'm gonna have to consult with the applicant on that before before we can swear to that so conf the rabbi thank you and then with regard to the hour study um I'm expecting I'll get a similar answer to this question since the hours you're using in your analysis are based on the hours of operation and not the roadway Peak are you agreeable to a stipulation that if the hours would change significantly that you would return to the board my primary concern is the nursery school that where if you're saying the nursery school starts at nine and therefore doesn't operate right at the roadway Peak if that were to change and you decide to start at 800 am my concern is a new analysis would be required if I may a clarification you're saying primarily the nursery school but are you saying only the nursery school or are you saying both but primarily the nursery school and asking for that stipulation I'm asking for the stipulation for both for both my and for the board's information my primary concern is theou with the use the word significantly because that's you know I don't know who's defining that that's fair I I I guess well he asked the question let's see but I I appreciate that Dave I would say you know anything more than say 15 minutes leeway if all of a sudden they decide to start at 9:05 I don't know that we need to drag bring them back to the board but if it's going to be my definition of significant would be more than 15 minutes but obviously the board makes that decision you can deliberate on exactly what time frame you'd like I'm sorry don't continue we're waiting for an answer I don't have an answer for you at the moment which if I kind of get a comprehensive list of the recommended conditions and then if you'll bear with me make sure there wasn't anything and then Andrew the only the only item in my I think in my memo that you didn't cover was regarding the location of the driveway on Old Short Hills Road I had had a comment about shifting that driveway further south so it aligned up with the street across the street can you comment on that or is that something you're you're doing or not I'm sorry can you give us a number on your report reference it's comment 15 in my report thank you so the answer to that is twofold one is the the location of the driveway on Old Short Hills Road um is largely influenced by the need to locate the drainage basins at the low point of the site um Park Road uh you know we we did however you know un try to understand the um the potential impacts of those that driveway battery I think it was just a coincidence uh the impacts of of the slight offset no the battery's dying um I'll just speak loudly you can speak one Andrew you can that come oh yeah you can remove that yeah take it thank you the so Park Park Road is a dead end roadway um it provides access to only approximately 30 homes um so the impact of the Turning Vehicles exiting the site driveway or or exiting Park Road uh is is very um uh very limited because it's only 30 homes true true members of the audience will and when I say and I say very limited it's due to limited queuing for vehicles uh on Old Short Hills Road trying to turn uh into Park Road you're saying that there's I just want to make sure we under I'm sorry we we need the audience to remain quiet um you were saying that there's limited queuing on sh Hills Road for people turning off for people turning into Park Road either North or southbound well Northbound would would be a right turn in coming uh southbound it would be very limited queing yes what is I guess what is very limited on the order of that observ on the order of maybe one to two vehicles per Peak or for what one to two vehicle Q Max during the like the busiest hour of the day I got so yeah there wouldn't be more than one or two cars waiting to turn correct wait for some amount of time which wasn't observed or was that calculation wasn't wasn't made however we did calculate what the delay is for Northbound traffic making the left turn onto um uh parage Hill Road which is you know a comparable movement uh and that was calculated as level of service a which is a very small amount of delay okay thank you so Andrew just so I'm clear you are not proposing to move the driveway no okay and then and I'm sure the architect when we get to them we'll get to this in more detail um first the and I apologize if I get the number wrong the is it correct that the basement level or the lowest level of the building will be for the nursery school and the first and second or upper two floors are will be the synagogue is that correct a correct assessment and as far as with in that regard with as far as parking um how can you go into how parking for the nursery school will work are people using both the I'll say the upper and lower lots are they all expected to park in the lower lot how how is that going to work so the primary entrance for the nursery school component will be in that lower that via that lower parking level uh the bottom right of the screen there um again the applicant hopes to be ramping up to to 50 students um so there will be time to understand if the lower parking field alone is sufficient for those 50 students um however there is a connection um you can walk through the building uh if you were to park in the upper parking uh level um which is to the generally to the top left of the screen um you can park there walk through the building uh and get to the nursery school component so um I anticipate that uh as the nursery school opens um there will be no need for anyone to park in the up upper level to bring their child um to the to the nursery school um but over time um it may be a situation where if you're age X to Y please please park in the upper level and walk your child through the front door um and vice versa and our architect will provide testimony confirming that internal pathway from upper to lower and then one last question and this um hopefully you can answer so we don't have to call back up the site engineer just for this I had requested that the site triangles be shown on the Landscaping plan um is that something you can comply with and my reasoning for that is whether it's the engineer or the forest or whoever is checking the Landscaping I'd like to have that triangle on their plan so they know that's that's an area they can't plant in those site triangles are provided um and we're in the package that was testified at the last application I'm going to switch to that sheet right now for clarification my question on is I just like to make sure they're on the Landscaping plan and not a separate exhibit the gate two is landscap I I I understand it right now it's it's on the next sheet we can we can certainly place it on the landscap Landscaping sheet so other than and we can go into any detailed technical questions the board may have but as far as the the mathematical analysis through the back and forth and their resubmission they've redone the analysis and addressed my technical mathematical comments um we can go through them in detail if you'd like but to that effect there any questions yeah we would ask you to do so thank you appreciate it yes please um I understand when you speak to I apologize that's okay um when you mentioned peak hours and I'm assuming that he took what you reference his PE hours what months were those in do you know or did I miss that part um I don't believe Mr vishio said exactly what date the count was I'll let him answer it since okay he did the counts the traffic counts were conducted Thursday May 30th Friday May 31st and Saturday June 1st of this year and that was not the holiday weekend correct thank you thank you hi are have question yeah uh so I might have missed it but it seems as if you did a traffic study for Saturday morning after services but uh sorry it it appears as if you did the the traffic study after servic is concluded Saturday morning did you also do it for Saturday prior to services for some reason I it seemed you I missed that time we focused on the the end because that is when people would be uh departing and it's closer to when the Saturday Peak um is is is occurring uh along the adjacent roadway Network so the hours so for Saturday morning uh the service would begin at 9:30 a.m. uh traffic is is much less on the road and all of those trips are Ingress which uh are affected much less by the adjacent intersection as opposed to egress trips and as far as and this might be a use question but you know I'm just I'm a little concerned with assumptions about the number of Mitzvah that are going to be observed just because if you're assuming 300 people for the high holidays it just seems low to say five mitzvah for the rest of the year so I'm just wondering if you were to say double that to 10 mitzvas per year and what are the I don't know what the assumptions are for how many people you know let's say the assumption is that there were I think 20 the 20 was Friday I think there's a little bit more on on Shabbat services so if you're going to have a Mitzvah you have family you have friends let's say you double that so what does that do to the calculations if you were to increase Mitzvah to let's say 10 a year and then double the amount of participants between friends and family how does that affect the calculations I think it's mitigated somewhat uh based on uh the the day of the week that those are expected to occur um which are during regular Sunday service um which I think I I testified was approximately 27% less traffic than a typical weekday even less traffic than a than a typical Saturday so the fact that those events occur on Sunday um is a uh um allows me to conclude that even if let's say 10 more family units attended um if wouldn't significantly change our findings um a slightly higher trip generation on on Sunday might be the same result as a slightly lower trip generation on a Saturday when you combine the the higher traffic volume on Saturday refers to low lower traffic volume on a Sunday what if it's more than SL what if it dou the volumes or or the attendees the isn't that kind of the same the the the volumes are are uh extremely consistent I don't I don't anticipate any uh unexpected uptick in in weekend traffic volumes um the the size of or or the the uh the number of attendees um is not something I can speculate on um what we uh the only thing that we could do as Traffic Engineers is perform a sensitivity analysis to understand at what number of attendees would we begin to see a degradation in level of service and delay um and again based on those occurring on um Sundays I think the number of attendees would have to be very high um for there to be a significant deterioration or degradation level of service and and I think that's what I think that's what we're trying to get to really is is forget about stats and numbers what's a real impact to the community and the neighborhood around there and so I think you know and I'd like to hear from Mr Fishinger also about his opinion if you concur that based on the numbers and let's even assume some higher numbers what's the quality of life in that area like that corner what's the impact on this on the from the traffic on the quality of life for the neighborhood in that area um you want to answer first since you're up there sure uh I think that we've we've established the the scale of the services on on each of the um days of the week it would it would be difficult ult for me to provide you with an answer on the the quality of life or or um the output or or the the metric that we use as Traffic Engineers is is delay can I ask a question that gets to this you you just testified that the left turn from old Short Hills Road to par per is level of service a in existing conditions that delay is that what you had said to me earlier from old Short Hills two part for example that left hand turn and and what level of service would that leftand turn become in future condition based on your analysis would would it remain level a or would change and I know that's not the full answer of how does that affect the qu life but that's something measurable that I think could testify to so that level of surface for that Northbound left turn remains at a it does increase in delay okay as you go into the Future No build and build condition can you give us this oh yeah sure great um so existing condition Northbound left uh 4.2 seconds on average for the left turn Okay uh so that means that you know some motorists make the left turn with zero seconds of delay and some might take 10 seconds or 20 yeah right um that only goes up to 5 Seconds of delay in the build in the morning but that's that's the Northbound left turn which is easier than the eastbound approach or eastbound left turn or or right turn from parsonage Hill Road to Old Short Hills Road that's where that's where is it the opposite no say it again eastbound parsonage Hill Road so if you're traveling eastbound on parsonage and you're saying if you're trying to make a left old Short Hills North well the entire approach itself eastbound parsonage Road in that General delay that approaches delay right we're seeing more delay in the future scenarios as a result of both background growth and the sight's traffic for that approach compared those num right those numbers um for the existing condition it's 46.9 seconds and then the future condition with with uh without any development right just both 71.6 seconds and then in the build Condition it's 152 seconds I what what grades do those get f f f f f f existing F existing F built F there's nothing worse than F how yes correct I think there needs to be a a little bit of um a reality check when it comes to the the outputs of the of the model it's Legion I'm sorry what model is it the the software software that was used for our analysis there are very important inputs that go into that model specifically the size of the gaps that that motorists accept and the level of platooning in uh traffic both on parsonage Hill Road and Old Short Hills Road you may have to explain what that means that got it understood so um random arrivals uh would be if um there were no like traffic signals nearby but traffic signals nearby cause um a concentration of of vehicular flow on the roadway um so just just to uh put some real world numbers to this I took look at I referred to the video from 8:48 a.m. and 16 seconds to 8:53 a.m. in 5 seconds I picked those times because they are um it was a time when I I saw the highest concentration of of Eastbound Vehicles approaching old Short Hills Road that's uh 289 seconds in that time 23 Vehicles made a turn from in the eastbound Direction that's an average of 12.6 seconds per vehicle okay so that's the level of delay that is occurring in the real world as opposed to the the software where we have limited ability to calibrate based on um based on the the inputs that uh we Joe and I have collaborated on that are allowable to to modify CH would you corroborate that that that Ral World tends to be better than computer modeling so in and in this specific case yes I went back and reviewed the video I didn't sit in counting time every single car as they did but I did spot check it to make sure their numbers were correct and so this for this specific condition yes the car when the cars are coming down they're typically platooned together five and six cars right behind each other whether that's a traffic light half a mile away turned green and everybody filed or you get one car that's going slower than the six behind it and they get backed up so those cars platoon and that means the gaps between them between the platoon are larger and when that Gap comes four or five cars can make the turn and usually once that that first car takes longer to decide to make the turn the second car behind it makes a turn a little bit faster so they've taken that into account as well well um if you read through the my review memo for in detail the original analysis they did was adjusting that six roughly six and a half second gap down to four which I wasn't I didn't like that idea because we want to make we don't want them to say well all right that's the Gap they're taking I want to make sure they're taking a gap that is safe that's why the reason to redo the analysis and to count the number of gaps that are available that are six and a half seconds or larger to make sure that it's a safe movement whether it's 12 seconds to delay or 14 seconds to delay in my opinion isn't quite as important as making sure it's a safe operation that there's enough time to make that turn and what goes with that as well is the site distance and the tries we want to make sure that when you do pull up to there you can see far enough to make a informed decision as to whether or not to turn I'm sure I've done it a number of times I'm sure all of you have made that turn many more times than I have there's a lot of vegetation in both sides that limit that so it's a combination It's a combination of both making sure the gaps are large enough and making sure that cars can see to accept those gaps um as far to get back to your earlier question far as quality of life we don't have a Magical Index that says quality of life this this project will add traffic to the intersection um if Mr vishio can quote his report with the exact numbers but I leave roughly for the uh preschool which is the higher of the numbers that's roughly 30 vehicles in and out in that hour so 30 come in and maybe 32 in and 36 out or vice versa but roughly 30 vehicles come in in that hour and leave in that hour that is additional traffic that's going to be on the road that is not there now that would be because of this site so is there going to be more traffic yes there is my concern is to make sure that the roadways can handle it and they can accommodate it safely so I can't tell you better quality life or Worse quality life I can tell you yes there's going to be more traffic and I want to make sure that can be accommodated safely so your conclusion is that it could be at least accommodated safely yes given the parameters that we've already discussed with regard to times of day and size intensity of the development if it get if the development gets more intense or the timing shift then we would need to review the analysis again to make sure that those conditions would still apply and that would also assume the accuracy of all the assumptions that were made based on operations and other issues is correct yes Mr VI if I could um I'm sorry can I just ask a quick followup question just for my own Minute you could um is there any sort of uh formula or or uh analysis when you had said that this the development of the site will bring I think it was you know in this case 32 36 what have you additional uh cars additional traffic to what's there now is there any sort of reduction factor or consideration that there may be kind of pass through trips if you will like if you like a 7-Eleven or something you have pass through trips and then somebody ducks in to get a cup of coffee on the way to work or ducks in to get gas on the way to work is it possible that there is existing traffic that's traversing these roads in the morning on the way to work that will now turn into the site to drop off their children on the way to work so there are additional you know there's a new turn in and a new turn out that obviously isn't there today but in terms of the adjacent roadway Network some of those cars may already be there that is possible um and Mr vishio can chime in as he sees fit they did their analysis did not take into account that because we don't have any real reliable data for that if this was a gas station or a convenience store there is much more research where we can predict that but a small Nursery School like this we just don't least to my knowledge there isn't it data to support a passby trip for nursery school so the applicant to provide pass by trip information is the applicant's burden appr proof with respect to all issues including traffic issues so that's why you didn't consider it correct right they didn't take any sort of credit for it and I didn't think it was appropriate given the low number it would probably be but it is possible that somebody who would be dropping their kid off is already going through the intersection and just would be stopping along their way just one more question about sorry if if people are leaving at the peak time after drop off in the morning and making exiting the the preschool and let's say making a Northbound turn so left out of the complex onto Old Short Hills Road and then there's the intersection of parsonage Hill and old Short Hills some people making a right I don't recall I know I looked up the distance between the exit onto Old Short Hills Road from the preschool and the I guess entrance or exit from parsonage Hill how far away is that distance and from a safety perspective if people are making numerous lefts out onto old short short Holes Road going north and people from parsonage Hill are going making rights going south is that a safe operation um Mr viio can quote the exact numbers from the analysis I want to testify to his report but in my review there is sufficient distance that that's not going to cause a problem and when we and just to follow up on that when the analysis is done and I check to make sure his numbers are correct those volumes are carried through each intersection so if the car makes a left out of their site driveway and then goes through the intersection at Old Short Hills and parsonage Road there that's that volume is added to that intersection as well the once the car the car is added cars are added through the entire network not just the one driveway the distance the distance is about 300 feet from the intersection um the sight triangle uh is is shown uh uh on that exhibit uh there's nothing impeding someone looking to the left towards Parson aill Road when exiting that driveway um and as we indicated previously we are going to superimpose that onto the landscape plan just to ensure that there's nothing being proposed onsite that would be within that triangle yes for Mr in your professional opinion if and I understand the study was done May 30th 31st and June 1st if this study were to be done today how significant would that be want to direct questions to the applicant for because he won't know how but I guess we could do both so in his professional opinion he could tell us sure you can give so generally speaking volumes on these roads are surprisingly consistent throughout the year accepting things like holidays and weekends and I did compare their counts to other historical data that's either published by the county or do just to make sure that their numbers are consistent and they are consistent with other counts done at other times of the year generally speaking and I don't know the exact number for this road uh traffic volumes on these roads they vary by less than 10% over the course of the year that it's not a significant change through days of the year provided that's what we consider a typical day school are in session weather is a decent weather no crashes or events like that okay thank you uh let's do Shing and then Michael okay uh so I have a question for Mr buzu as well as Mr fishing uh Mr VI you conclude in your report that uh the proposed development would not have a significant impact on the traffic operations the adjacent uh roadway Network so I'm curious Bas in your professional experience I'm assuming you've done project of similar size in school uh could you define what significant is and can you quantitatively say um U what the magnitude would be considered to be significant because I think you said 20,000 Vehicles pass by old shter every day so would 1% be considered significant 2% 5% I'm working on a project right now in Neptune Township um for a hospital expansion um it's along a state highway NJ do has very strict uh level of service degradation criteria um not meeting that degradation criteria requires mitigation um so if we were to propose something that didn't meet Do's degradation criteria I would say that is having a significant impact um what we as Traffic Engineers would do is try to figure out how we mitigate that sometimes it's roadway widening sometimes it's roadway restriping sometimes it's changing traffic signal timings um but generally when we identify something significant um uh we attempt to mitigate it and every reviewing jurisdiction has a different level of what they consider significant so you can't quantita quantitatively say if it's X percent then it's significant NJ Do's definition of a significant increase in trips is 100 peak hour trips that is NJ Do's definition of significant what's the county county doesn't have to to my knowledge I could I could be wrong I don't think that they have a definition that says X trips is significant they defer to the state do or they use the same I don't believe Essex County has published degradation criteria thank you on if it's 100 just based on the map that was previously described 30 you know 30 * n 30 time out times two because you have drop off as well that's that's 120 right there right isn't it significant the highest peak hour uh uh number of trips that we're calculating in a peak hour is 69 M my question was understand you did uh studies on Saturday but you did not do one on Sunday which based on your testimony that's when we have Services we have education facilities education going on as well as events throughout the year so could you explain why it was not necessary to do a a study on a Sunday and then project with all of that growth It's a combination we we determined the study peak hours based on a combination of both the the roadways traffic volume and the operations of of what's being prop proposed um and you're generally seeking to study the hours where the proposed development can have the largest impact um the not only did we do turning movement counts during the peak hours we also placed uh automatic traffic recorders uh on Old Short Hills Road to understand the fluctuations of traffic 247 um for one week and um the Sunday volumes were 27% less than a weekday so when you take a look at the ambient background growth being so low even if the trips generated by the site might be slightly higher than say a Friday evening or a Saturday the the result would be um uh better operations for that for that Sunday period so may I follow up on that because that was one of my questions you you're testifying that the Sunday is 27% lower on Old Shore Hills Road on parsonage where was that count done sure so and the reason I ask is it's a big surprise to me because another there there's a reservation as you know nearby this and on Sunday mornings which is the time period that we're talking about Brookside Drive is closed to vehicular traffic so a lot of traffic traveling westbound through our town uses old Hills Road to travel Northbound and I would anticipate Sunday to not be 27% lower but I I guess that's what I just want to understand that that if that is the the they mean or do you mean like eastbound on parsonage what direction were you measuring just old old Short Hills Road combination of both directions of traffic for the entire day on Sunday the entire day on Sunday um I I I would have to like manually do the calculations for a specific hour okay I think that's because that's the reservation is not closed the entire day it's closed in the morning which is exactly when this you know the operations are so what happens at 4 in the afternoon is not really as much to the same deg um can I ask another uh question Mr f um well yeah one would that be a reasonable request um to ask for for you to go back and and confirm that 11: am to 12 am hour on Sundays I could do it I could do it right now 11 a. to 12 so our study peak hour to noon I'm sorry our study peak hour was um on Saturday 12:00 p.m. to 1 p.m. services on Sunday also conclude at noon okay on Saturday so we're focusing on the 12:00 p.m. to 1 p.m hour sure the total is 1,23 total vehicles on Old Short Hills Road on Saturday okay and then Sunday 1,157 okay so that's not 27% less 1200 1157 for correct not for that peak hour okay but it is less so thank you I appreciate the it was Sunday 11: am. to noon that was no 12 to 1 oh also 12 the same hours because that's how we testify it would be the same operations okay thank you any follow-ups on that so given that I guess because it sounds to me like there's more activity on Sunday than there is on Saturday because in addition they both have services but Sunday has the educ the Hebrew school as well as the the events be they the for Mitzvah or the weddings or whatever that sounds like Sunday needs to be looked at as well um you know because it's you know comparable to in significance to Saturday and sounds like it would generate more traffic if I may our next witness is going to be the rabbi who's gonna be in the best position to give detailed information with regard to the Daily operational aspects of the function of this facility um I do not believe it's correct to assume that there's going to be more activity on Sunday mornings than there is Saturday but the rabbi can delve into that okay we can have that testimony would we still be able to make additional follow-up questions or requests of traffic if we have followup questions based on the rabbis testimony um yes okay fantastic um Frank did you want to follow up on that yeah I I had some questions um so was any modeling done uh to calculate what the impact fact would be on the high holy days when there's potentially 300 people here or if there were you know a large event was there any modeling done to show what the impact would be in that case uh and additionally was any modeling done uh if the parking lots were fully utilized um what the impact would be there because obviously it seems like you know under under normal circumstances there's a lot more parking spaces available will be necessary but if there was any sort of growth um you know that would assume be somewhat constrained by the amount of parking spaces if that growth were to occur what would that impact as well no we didn't model those those High holy days um it's similar to not modeling or or designing based on the highest peak hour that occurs over the course of a year generally as traffic engine Engineers you design for the 85th percentile um so so uh that's why we focused on what the operations would be you know 362 days of the year not not not those um um not those other three days um and again the applicant is has expressed that they're um uh willing to you know work with the police department and the engineering department and the township to understand what if any um traffic control might need to occur at the inter protction during those days and if the amount of Ingress and egress were to increase similar to the capacity of the lot so instead of 30 or 90 what would the impact be there what would the impact be on on on the traffic patterns and surrounding area so for example if right now they're projecting will be 30 ingresses and egresses if that goes up to 50 or 60 I think the parking lot has a capacity for 90 cars what would that impact yeah I I I haven't performed that sensitivity analysis I I have um no reason to think that the the values that that um we've cited in our report are misrepresent um what typical um traffic would be specifically because we uh crosschecked it against the Institute of Transportation Engineers um again for those for those very few days of the year um you may certainly see extensive delays at the intersection um the subject intersection entering the driveways exiting the driveways um I'm not um I'm not disputing that and just to clarify what you've mentioned a couple of times now that the applicant has has expressed a willingness as I think was recommended in the planers report to work with uh the local police department and and what have you to mitigate traffic on those days are you specifically referring to actually having like traffic police officers out there to direct traffic and stop oncoming traffic and wave in to facilitate those moments movements is that specifically what you're referring to correct not physical changes but but Traffic Control Officers or the like was any um calculation done to contemplate if people were to illegally Park on uh parsonage Hill what impact that would have no what uh going back to the the you appreciating the applicants willingness to work with the police would they cover that at their cost that something yes if that yeah I mean yeah I mean if that's I know you know there are religious uh Institute facilities throughout town that routinely do that so whatever the whatever the state in you know arrangements are if that's you know that's part of the tax there's a separate you know per hour fee whatever the the township you know does to to recoup its expenses in that regard um you know we wouldn't seek to be accepted from that but just uniform treatment is all but yes great appreciate that but I guess given that but if so if it is 300 people and there only 90 spaces it's not clear to me where where you know that's going to if even even if it's two people to a car that's 150 people you know 150 people looking for spaces not clear where they're going to park and I would guess people are going to come in think they're going to find a parking space find out it's full uh you know come back out look around I mean it just seems like it would make the situation even even have more ESS coming in and out to uh that I think that there's um um more parking Supply uh than I think that the parking Supply that's being proposed will go a long ways even on the high holy days so I took a look at the Institute of Transportation Engineers parking generation manual changing things up on you a little bit the the parking generation manual provides a rate of 0.41 parking spaces per attendee um so with 300 attendees that's 23 vehicles um so in order for the 95 parking spaces to accommodate 300 people that ratio would have to be you know Point lower from 041 to. 32 or slightly more than three people per car so it's not a huge jump based on um the industry standard data that that would get us to a place where the parking Supply that's being proposed is adequate even for the high holy days and if it's exactly that that 041 rate you know we're talking 28 Vehicles which could be um you know arranged through formal car pooling perhaps a um a small a small shuttle maybe the uh maybe the rabbi could identify uh an an off-site parking location where someone with a uh a small van could transport people uh I just wanted to convey that it's um not 300 Vehicles it's it's a smaller amount of vehicles and also just to to clarify the requirements under the ordinance with regard to parking are twofold with regard to houses of worship right they're tied to both both the overall square footage of the size of facility that's proposed as well as the number of seats in the sanctuary so it kind of in terms of the size of the facility and the expected uh attendance and under both those uh requirements we comply with what the ordinance requires regard to the number of parking correct that is correct we took the higher of the two and we comply with the higher okay thanks I have a question um I want to go back to parsonage um Coming eastbound towards the intersection um you talked about and thank you for giving like the numbers of seconds it's it's 46 or something existing and it will go up in the Bild scenario to about 150 seconds of delay according to the model that we are using that we've had limited ability to calibrate got you can you speak to what that means in terms of queing distance because I'm concerned about how far back it goes even beyond the property cost potentially I mean 150 seconds is over two minutes so two and half minutes so what what does that sort of look like along thatway even with that failing movement that that we cited which I have given reasons why I don't think it will be that bad um the 95th percentile Q length is 13 Vehicles now the driveway was shifted 270 feet away from the intersection right so um assuming a vehicle takes 20 to 25 feet of distance that's 11 to 13 vehicles that can fit in that 270t spacing distance between the intersection and the driveway um and then you could take that 11 to 13 and add the Q storage for two more vehicles um because of the flared approach um let me sorry I want to correct just make sure my math is matching yours 13 Vehicles up to about 25 feet right you have the space plus you leave a little space between you and the car in front of you so that's like 325 feet say as the back of the line 13 time 25 is 325 oh I was saying 11 Vehicles if you assume 25 foot spacing take 50 off that that's 275 and then you're saying the driveway is at 270 from the from the intersection so it's just about where that'll be so that'll be on the on the subject property it doesn't go past the Q correct and then and then that straight math that you did you can tack on two addition storage for two more Vehicles because of the the flared approach and the fact that two cars can be waiting to make a left turn while still letting the the right turning Vehicles pass you could have a truck or a van or something Fair okay so it could be basically as long as almost the property up to that drive way I do not believe in a worst case is scenario that is that is the the pure output I I I I do not believe it would be that long um for the reasons I cited previously but even in this extremely conservative analysis the queue you know barely barely gets to the gets to the driveway thank you thanks for and that's that's like the worst peak hour that we've looked at worst period of the day okay we'll go to Deborah then question um I want to talk a little bit about theol um when my kids went to preschool there was drop off we didn't park our car and bring the kids in we lined our cars up dropped them off in the afternoon we'd line them up and they'd be brought out for pickup so I'm wondering how many cars can that space accommodate if the either for security or efficiency reasons the synagogue decides that the preschool is going to go to a drop off plan and whether any of the cars that are waiting to do drop off should that occur are going to be waiting on parsonage H therefore causing you know more of a traffic issue if they're if they're 15 cars in the morning waiting to drop their kids off can that driveway accommodate 15 cars or 20 cars if you're talking about about a 50 student preschool even even if my understanding is that parents will park and and walk through our children in but even if they weren't there is ample onsite Drive aisle length where um dozens of vehicles would be able to idle or or or Q on site within the parking field with without encroaching onto parsonage Hill Road D than you can you turn your mic on just make sure picking good sir um the question I did not hear you address at all when I look at the plans there's in the sanctuary space it looks like if I'm doing my math right there's 148 seats in the Gathering space there's 150 I I didn't hear you talk about the Gathering space and the traffic that that can generate and when I would have to defer to how the Gathering space is is uh anticipated to to being used okay so were you asked not to do that or you just didn't think about analyzing that traffic that that would generate the people going in that I I asked about every question that I could have possibly thought of um okay so uh and the second is um um did did you did you look and do any investigation at all as to whether or not there are other um projects being built in in the area yes that's that's standard procedure um let me look back at my originally submitted traffic impact study um we reviewed two years of minutes of the Planning and Zoning Board from January 2023 to May of 2024 and didn't find any plan developments in the immediate vicinity of the subject property that that's from page four your report correct okay when you say we reviewed those minutes who's we my staff your staff okay um and have you ever reviewed any of their work on that to see whether or not that's correct yes I have okay um you don't you don't know anything about the an say development that's being built in town can you elaborate on the the size of it 149 units okay and the location locations on Milburn a and and the Essex the corner there near the train station the train station right so you don't don't know about that you didn't calculate that at all well let me let me clarify there are two components of building no build the no build condition there's other plan development projects which are generally limited to something that's happening within a Stones Throw of your development that is going to significantly change how how something operates there's also background growth rate right so we used uh the NJ do approved background growth rate to establish our future Nob build condition which was 1.75% annually for two years which is typically enough to accommodate for developments such as that which might not be you know adjacent to the property but um could increase the ambient uh traffic volumes along the roadway and how many years out did you go just to understand how that two okay but the question is why isn't the an say project mentioned in your report we felt that the background growth rate growth rate um was sufficient to to um uh account for those additional trips okay so you knew about the an says project but you thought it was encompassed in your report or you didn't know about the N project we take a a much more focused look when it comes to other proposed projects um than anything that's happening in town okay well could you answer my question you either knew about it or you didn't know about it you did your report the says project we I personally did not know about it it didn't rise to the level of something that um is standard operating procedure to to um account for in a traffic study like this but your report says that you went through the minutes of the planning board correct okay all right thank you can I ask sure you can questions just a a board member uh asked you in essence you said there's two two there's background growth and there's immediate vicinity yes and then you said you defined immediate vicinity by saying it's a stone's throw right I could throw a stone farther than some people what how do you define and measure immediate vicinity some by the way some people could throw Stone farther than that's for sure how do you Define a media vicinity and and what and what was utilized to define a media vicinity for that first of the two components you just stated and testified to right there there's no exact definition for media vicinity what I look for in an adjacent development that needs to be included is something that um is what I would consider significant using NJ Do's uh uh definition right 100 p hour trips um if there is an infrastructure change associated with that proposed development um those are those are the types of things that I look at 149 units might that be significant if it was within the quote unquote immedia facility it wouldn't generate 149 residential units wouldn't generate 100 peak hour trips so no matter how close it is you wouldn't consider it would just default to the backround I would take the I would take I would take everything into consideration it's probably about a mile away there's also the potential 75 develop did he answer your questions just make sure your question I the best answer I can get out of I get an answer that's fine guess you asking another question no it's the same thing like you take into account The Beehive project just down the street 62 149 75 going and just the the two that are going in definitely it's 3% of the housing in in milour and you're only comparing at to 1.75 growth so to me that doesn't quite equate I think some should be done there especially it's a major quarter right people use Main Street people use old Short Hills Road people use mil Burna so I'm pretty sure you're going to have a high percentage of the car traffic from all these using those roads so it should have been in my opinion I don't maybe Mr Fish could offer exp I turn to Mr Fishinger or to Graham our planner because you're also familiar I know with these developments happening in town I didn't know if that was something to cause concern for you as you riew the reports as well okay thanks sorry kick you out of the way again the answer um generally speaking uh Mr VI's numbers are correct 10 and something units doesn't necessarily generate 100 trips um and the further the project is away away from a particular site that traffic does get watered down not everyone goes the same way they are spread over and the the growth rate that you're trying that's 1.75% per year applied to the existing traffic volumes on the road so they say that I can't do the compounding in my head you know three and a half% roughly times that 20,000 cars a day number to get to that so given the distance it that the N says project is away and the amount of background growth traffic that they used I'm comfortable that it's incorporated into the background growth gr I don't know if there was anything you needed to add I just have a clarification question for uh Mr yes I'm sorry um you you mentioned something that um parking is not designed for the high holiday you just clarify that one more time you said it the attorney came up and you both spoke on that can you just clar is that exactly what you said or understand we meet the parking requirement for the township I I I do not know the exact um uh per people per vehicle percentage that would be um anticipated for the high holy days so I can't State specifically if 300 um uh uh people um would if if the parking field would be sufficient for 300 okay it wasn't a trick question just clarification on what you said when it was brought up that what did you do you calculated that at the max it would be somewhat of 120 some on people or 120 someone cars correct correct on the high holy T correct is that clarification that was correct that was the calculation of the number of vehicles assuming 300 people attending with the standard it um parking rate thank you questions from support um so I would imagine you have a lot of experience with different types of projects and traffic related in your professional experience do you find that the it um regulations with regards to the average number of people per car for some like the high holy days does that align or is it higher or lower yeah it's pretty spot on uh I've um just these past few months have been working on a application for a Starbuck where parking demand was of the utmost importance for the board um I cited it data um had to provide sample um data from existing Starbucks locations and it was pretty much spot on to what it cited um I've done similar uh exercises in my career for um convenience stores with gasoline Service uh I have a high level of confidence in the it data thank you any other questions okay for professionals okay great uh go ahead you can thank you the uh you used a uh a factor of 30% reduction on siblings for the uh it trip generation for the daycare center well you call the daycare center Nursery School Preschool what have you correct correct okay the the uh it that's 11th Edition used for trip generation not park I think we might be up to 12th edition it's still 11 thanks but is there a 12 Edition no not yet I was asking the the uh he didn't say sure but the the uh any event used it 11 Edition correct okay the trip trip generation 30% so my understanding of the it trip generation is they look at actual uses uh uh uh around perhaps the country is that correct correct similar uses correct so those uses they're using in essence actual numbers for that sampling correct correct okay so uh wouldn't then implicit in that sampling be those vehicle trips that have more than one child in the car IE siblings and would the reduction would be accounted for in the it trip generation data correct if the daycares that were studied had an equal percentage of of siblings equal to what equal to to to what we're anticipating for this specific why can you explain why you anticipate 3% more on top of the already implicit uh sibling percentages as an exception for the IG trip generation that was that was raised in the review the reviewing Traffic Engineers letter um and what was your so what we did was we uh calculated the trips that would be um our initial calculation was based on the size of the of the facility we then were the different sizes utilized in the actual data that was utilized as a subset for the I trip generation for dayare Center that you used could you repeat that I apologize sure you said relying on the actual size of this of this proposed daycare right I'll use the term daycare process what used it trip generation report um uh uh was it compared to the size of the actual sampling that comprises the it trip generation data for daycare centers oh like the uh like the range of sizes of of the daycare center I don't know those off the top of my head but how many samples that comprise that data for daycare center for it land use 565 coach I don't have that for me right now okay so you don't know how they compare it all to what you understand to be the operations and size of this particular proposed daycare correct uh I could I could say that generally it it is not significantly different than other daycare centers that I've that I've worked on in the past I think it's smaller but you just said you don't know what is in the subset by way of size or or composition or sibling percentage other than it implies sibling percentage in that composite correct and you don't know how many of there were and where they came from nationally were any of them in New Jersey yeah I I don't have the printouts from the actual raw report so I can't give you the exact specifics I could just give you my experience as a professional working that has worked on many daycare centers did they take essentially an average of the however many daycare centers there are and you sort of try to find it what is it standard deviation is that how they what they call it essentially okay but do we have any information from you or in your report as to what the standard did how many sites were utilize for that data what the stand what the sizes were uh what if anything relative to The Sibling percentage is implicit therein and what the uh what the standard deviation was in other words if there were a hundred of them what was the lowest what was the highest uh I follow the question I don't have the answers for you so Madam chair if I can interrupt that's fine I don't I don't have any F on that I want I want to clarify this because this ties into the discussion we had earlier with the 50 students my concern was similar to that that based on the size of the building there I felt their numbers were would have been low because they were taking a 30% Credit in addition to just some people have two kids that's why that was the impetus for the request of the condition that it be capped at 50 students because it calculates gives us estimates both on building size and student size and the student for 50 students is actually less than the numbers they were using in their analysis so by capping the it on the number of students whether the building could physically hold more or not then we're tying it to number of students not a building square footage so that was the Imp addressing that issue was the impetus for student appreciate what I'm trying to get at and I apologize if I'm taking too much time mam chair but is the sibling uh reduction because uh if it is assumed which it must be by definition it's implied by virtue of the sampling that's utilized for the it land use code 565 UND dat of their siblings um with with with with some of the students um then the question becomes what if there wasn't not such a reduction and maybe uh what would the it chip trip generation I I we do the math we could take out the column that has the negative numbers that deduct from the from the gross numbers um but but how how would that change if at all your testimony with respect to it trip generation if you were to assume no reduction for siblings beyond that which is implicit in the sampling uh in the it gener trip generation code that you utilize we perform those calculations so the trip generation manual allows you to calculate trips based on size of the building and the number of students for a 50 student daycare center across the board the trips were lower according to it than the trips that we used in our report right but if you use the it trip generation as you used am I correct I'm looking at your uh uh Page Six of your report under uh daycare center if you don't deduct a 30% deduction for the siblings it looks like you have 97 total peak hour uh in the weekday morning and 98 total peak hour in the weekday uh week day midday correct correct okay so I guess that is technically under 100 isn't it it's correct okay but uh but it's close right okay but I I I want to and that's just the daycare uh the trip trip generation is different for the house of worship but I guess you're testifying at least that if there's no overlap the the synagogue traffic at least the exception of the H High holy dayss and other Mitzvah uh uh uh uh would be less than a daycare Cent correct right I correct but I I I assume that a daycare center of that size 8,200 something square feet is probably licensed for more students than 50 um I wouldn't anticipate 51 entering vehicles for 50 students especially considering the um the you know sibling uh consideration hence the request by the traffic engineer to cap at 50 which is still pending because nobody's accepted it yet correct correct okay all right no I have nothing further I apologize for thanks for clarifying capitalizing on that you had a question um I just wanted to confirm alignment um of the TR introduce gr PTO here's the board planner this evening and was previously sworn yes thanks um I just wanted to confirm alignment between your traffic analysis and the on-site circulation particularly related to the child care so the nursery school drop off absolutely um so because the drop off location and just for benefit everybody is only at the lowest level correct so we haven't we haven't heard interior circulation testim they building it but the lowest level so so be those spaces so all morning traffic entering the site for drop off would enter from parsonage Hill and then circulate down on the site Park and do the drop execute the drop off and then exit onto oror Hills I just want to confirm that your analysis reflected that that that would be the only circulation movement that there wouldn't really be any drop off in the upper l so there wouldn't be exiting Vehicles out the pars Nill Road during the morning hours the the majority is expected to use this this lower parking field but we did uh uh adjust our trip distribution for the possibility that some parents may have to park in the upper uh parking area and may decide to exit on the parsonage children okay and do you have an idea for how that was split or percentages I'm just curious oh as far as the trip just a small percentage okay so but the majority the vast majority would be out Road correct okay just want confir thank thank you following that two unless they live off with Parson and chill road so that small percent I guess I'm saying wouldn't someone use the shortest distance for where they live to yeah avoid having to make two turns right we we do uh we do have some trips routed to make a left turn onto Farson Hill Road um during the hours of the daycare centers operating we we do we have a percent um and was that percent considered that that was the closest distance or is just just the percent of how many people would be parking and then bringing their child or were both of those calculated it's about 10% of the exiting trips and that's with both right yes okay how did you come up with that 10% was there engineering judgment I we think that we think that the lower parking level will be sufficient for all of the nursery school drop off um but understanding that some parents might choose to park in the upper level we had to assign a percentage and we had to use engineering so it was just you picked 10% you don't have a basis for why you pick 10% is that what you're saying that was just your judgment correct okay other questions from any professionals just my only follow question to all this is just operationally like will that upper level door be open these are questions that we'll need answers once we hear on operations you know for folks to come in I'm assuming there's an elevated to access lower level so just clarification on that one absolutely thank okay if no further questions from the boards then we will open it up to the public for if I may M just before we do that um just by way of of of context and it's it's applicable to some of the questions and comments that came from from the board members as well I think it's important to bear in mind that neither this applicant or or any applicant uh when you have a variance free application is responsible for addressing adverse traffic impacts for an Annie says that's a mile away from the site I think the police report indicates that there was a concern about the fact that the Papermill Playhouse is approximately a mile from the site it's not incumbent upon any applicant this one or any other who's not seeking variance relief from the board to account for and mitigate perceived or potential off-site adverse traffic impacts so to the extent that folks get bound up in that that is not this applicant's job to address to the extent that it even needs to be addressed I think it's important to bear that in mind as we pursue questions of the board's expert and the applicants expert I appreciate that I think our board still has to do its due diligence is doing our job and trying to understand the to the so I think the questions haven't been out of line no no no but certainly the the questions and the due diligence should be focused on what's within the proper purview of the board to take action on is all okay and and and uh of course the offsite trip generation and the build not build and the assumptions they were all part parcel of the report provided the traffic impact study by your the appli traffic engineered so just to reiterate certainly it's reasonable in pray game for questioning yes test that information credibility Etc correct sure absolutely yeah and that's a a standard part of a traffic report and was part of ours bearing that in mind though that doesn't that's it's not proper to take the next step to say well we've heard these things and it troubles so that would be an appropriate grounds to deny an application like this that's that's an entirely different with dunk Donuts Doctrine is some people like me call it and and the cas app uh within which I assume you would concur that site at a minimum site circulation and Ingress and egress to and from the site is fair game if you will for the board to address and require the burden of proof to be met by the applicant even even under the Dunkin Donuts case in it's progeny correct I do yes and that that standard I believe is safe and efficient I think we both did our parts thank you thanks so if members of the public want to come we'll invite you to come forward um please state your name and address and then again this is just for questions for uh the traffic engineer um based on the testimony and the questions and responses you heard this evening welcome hey good evening uh question sorry um it's some people's first time so right now they can ask questions if they brought their own experts to testify would that happen later on and any if I may I assume it's directly the the uh and for the benefit of everyone uh the uh this is only questions of this witness based on this witness test Witnesses testimony with respect to trip traffic generation and parking and the like um any public comment any testim which is testimony any testimony from any witnesses that uh members of the public wish to call uh if and when appropriate uh that would be later that is uh after the entirety of the direct case presented by the applicant who has the burden of proof uh and then technically the B applicant would have the right to rebuttle if any uh similar to the way it works in court thanks thank you than you for good evening uh my name is Tim dear it's d e g a v r it's like Brett Favre um and I live at 20y Park Road um Short Hills New Jersey so I have a question for you um did you look at you mentioned quality of life we talked about what's the impact on quality did you look at the impact of exiting Park Road and what that would mean for the 30 or so homes that live there I didn't I didn't analyze uh Park Road specifically uh I don't think it would be substantially different um in fact it would the level of service and delay calculations that I've been testifying to would be far less for vehicles exiting uh Park than as compared to Parson to ch but I have a I have a sep I have a different question sure you're gonna have at tra especially because I I leave every morning when I eat you're gonna have traffic exiting that the property around 8:30 that's G be Peak 8:30 to 9: right because that's where all the drop offs are going to happen you're gonna have folks trying to exit Park Hill which is also Peak like that's also where the bus leaves as well that's going to create I think a will that create potential um liability potential more accidents because you're gonna have now both sides trying to exit the same time dur that peak hour especially between eight and nine have you looked at that in terms of what that could mean in terms of danger yeah I I have assessed it um I think the sight lines are generally uh uh acceptable in that both approaches can see each other which is what I which is what I think is most important the site distance um and it appears to be there uh so so for that reason the those those two movements happening in relative close proximity to each other are safe what about delay in leaving Park Road there may be some DeLay So and have you estimated what that delay could be to those residents it would be significantly less than any delay that I cited for people traveling along pars Ro okay we talked a little bit about additional traffic anyone trying to go into town I mean right now sometimes traffic can back all the way up um sometimes even all the way to Park Road now at some of these times do you have you also looked at the impact of traffic going into town but also coming out of town at these peak times and what that means in terms of additional delay we took into account every vehicle that traversed this intersection but did you look look at delay times right now if you're trying to go down old Short Hills Road into town that can be a significant delay that's also trying to get to the train station have you thought about what impact this could have on the residents again quality of life in terms of those types of trips are we focused our analysis on the intersection at the corner of the site and the site driveways we didn't analyze any other intersections to the North and the South I think that comes back to the quality of life question which is we need to be able we need to be able to get around yep right and so I think would it also be reasonable to measure the impact on residents of this area's ability to get into town get to the train station with the addition of this volume especially the peak time because 8:30 is the peak time I mean sometimes it's I've I've tracked it to get to the train station it could take 15 minutes from Park Ro so have you looked at what that could actually impact could be on that in terms of time as you Traverse farther away from the site the impact of our site trips will diminish so we studied the highest concentration of site generated trips which is the intersection at the corner of the site okay but a lot of but a lot of that volume coming out of the site will be going into town or to the train station a percentage of it but some will be going north okay okay I just want to make sure we're not getting into dialogue that's fine but that's fine okay um so we already have an impact on parking from one Jefferson on Park Road so is there a willingness to stipulate that as part of this project that there will be no overflow parking on Park Road I can't make that commitment for but council is is here and uh has heard it but is there I mean do you anticipate that there will be more parking even on Park Road as a result of this at PE times no I think I've testified that I find the on-site parking Supply to be adequate and it meets the ordinance requirement okay um and I think the last thing is and one thing I've noticed is there's quite a lot of accidents on Old Shore Hills Road have you looked at the accident rate on Short Hills Road have you compared it to other comparable roads and have you done an impact assessment on accident rate from adding this especially at these high volume intersections uh we did um so we submitted an an open public records act request for crash reports um that have occurred at this intersection from 2015 through this past summer we' received only 20 crash reports um is fewer than three per year I personally noticed that the the respondence records seem to exclude two years so the rate if you were rather than say it's 9.5 years of data if you were to say it's 7.5 years of data 20 crashes in 7.5 years is 2.6 crashes per year but are you only looking at took that a step further and I looked at the North Jersey Transportation Planning Authority and jtpa which oversees this County as well as others in North Jersey and develops um uh screening lists for roads and intersections that have high crash rates neither old Short Hills Road Road nor parsonage Hill Road nor this intersection or found on any screening list prepared by njtpa so I don't think that there is a high crash occurr here did you look from because if you look at Glen Road because I I I am broadening it right I mean that is also within a Stones Throw I guess depending on how far you can throw a stone um but if you broaden it to Glen Road but you also go beyond parsonage further up did you measure that are you saying these roads no part of Parson Hill Road was on an njtp old Short Hills no but did you actually but I understand what you're saying but did you actually look at the accident rate Beyond just the parsonage hill inter no I just looked at the accident rate here because I I think that would be a reasonable question which is what is the actual accident rate if you look at glenro because glenro that intersection is also very dangerous and if you actually look at the accident rate from Glen Road all the way up Beyond par Road it's got to be more than that I mean I see a couple accidents happening it's just a question okay sorry yeah thank you I I didn't do that okay I think I think that covers okay thank you thank you Ted CS live in Old Hills you your name KU n dtz and live in the old Hills I have a couple questions for you one did you are you considering a traffic light at that intersection of parentage we're not proposing one oh why not it sounds like that would be the a solution not necessarily given the amount of traffic that we're saying in the backups and delays probably might be appropriate not by itself you don't think so okay let up to the board to decide that uh you also mentioned the uh the classroom size I was a little puzzled by what you said I was here on the engineer report and he said there was 12,000 square feet of classroom space and 9,000 square feet for the synagogue you and the e i as specifically asked him what's on the second floor and he said classrooms so you said just the opposite and I'm just wondering what is the correct number the reason for that question is if there is more classroom space and this should really be viewed as a school and a synagogue um and this is a a project that's going to be lasting 20 30 years and there's going to be growth I'm I think you're going where I'm going no I'm not going anywhere but I thought you were about to say something so see like more statements than questions but to the extent that there's a concern about getting squared away as to exactly the square footages and the breakdown of rooms and what they're going to be uh used for our architect has floor plans that were submitted as part of our application well you can make a proper through this witness to accommodate this gentleman's question if you have one I mean I think the operations person is with you that's true I can I can answer the question you said 13,000 square feet for the synagog 8,000 square feet for the school the arit on the the basement yes yes right the basement is approximately 8,000 square feet and then the first floor and second floor combined to that approximately 13,000 square feet I think you're question is the architectural plans indicate classrooms on on the second floor which you I testified no I testified that there would be adult education on certain classrooms are fungible you can move the children anywhere so my point to the question is that you have to look at this project with growth taken into account the rabbi I'm sure wants to expand his his his his contingency his uh his group and uh you know you could have to assume that there's going to be more children to classrooms uh for other students and so this could be viewed more as a school project along with the synagogue project and if it is a school project that's going to create a lot more traffic considerations and so you really didn't do a whole lot of sensitivity analysis about the potential growth that if you what if you double the size of the number of students what if you double the number of people coming to the synagogue you know if you did that you got Mr Mr yeah you're you're you're you're charging through you're asking questions and then you're speaking so I just I'm just laying out a scenario that I Hopey Mr you're testifying remember that's later but but this is the I thought I was asking a question that if you did the sensitivity analysis for a much greater that's what I'm asking did was there a sensitivity analysis done for say doubling the size of the of the congregation say it's instead of 300 there's 600 coming no okay so there's no sensitivity and if there's you know instead of 50 students there could be 100 students and did was there a sensitivity analysis done for that I didn't hear that I there was not a sensitivity analysis done there was an analysis done that compared the operations information that was provided us compared to Industry standard data pick the more conservative of the two and that's what we so you did not take into account a gross Factor we didn't arbitrarily double or double just to see what would happen if that happened which it very well could we did not do that okay okay and did you check with the uh did you review with the police commissioner your results because he had some comments that he was concerned about the uh the traffic and the impacting the intersection and to alleviate this would require an addition of other traffic control devices did you talk with him he had a report done their recommendation was that there would be an independent traffic engineer which the board pursued okay and did they check with the or I have to ask them right did you did you check with the police commissioner on that Mr fer your recommendation and your recommendation did it run by the police commissioner I did not spe I did not speak specifically with the police department he had concerns hopefully hopefully someone talks to him because I think it's important to get his input okay that's it thank you thank you um Jeffrey Feld 11 Alexander L Short Hills New Jersey I just want with all du respect this is sort of like a lawnman question going to the the premise and the presumptions of of the uh hours of use I just want to confirm that there will be no morning from between Monday and Fridays there will be no morning or evening prayers and on Tuesday and Thursday when they take out the Torah there'll be no Services I just want to confirm because the hours we heard do not take into account any morning services or evening Services I say this because my brother is an orthodox I just want to confirm that Mr I think you asked the question they have right my my understanding is that there is not currently or proposed represent by on beh the think we should hear from their RBI on that who's going to be running the operation that your your report was I think your report was based on no morning Services no evening services on Tuesday and Thursday when they also take out the Torah there'll be no Services Tor services and I say that with all due respect to you that's a lansman question and and I know that because my brother's an ultra Orthodox Rabbi okay but was that I think what you're asking is was that the Assumption you used in your in your report the assumption that they only use that the facility I want to caution that the the the Friday evening analysis would be in my opinion satisfactory for the evening potential evening servic services on other weekdays Friday Friday traffic is generally higher than Monday through Thursday and you know I can cite the numbers if necessary but the the the fact that we conducted a Friday evening analysis for service in in effect covers an analysis for Monday through Thursday evening service so you added those volumes to the school volumes for your analysis you added service volumes to the the school gener volum just the evening about there are morning weekday Services I guess that was the question did you analyze my understanding is that there will not there will not be okay so we would like toy that and we can do that at the right time also you use the term nursery school and daycare owns interchangeable are they the same concept and I say that because I'm a grandfather now we don't you've been using the term daycare and nursery school and and based on my experience with my new granddaughter they're not the same concept yeah I've been using both terms because the industry standard trip generation rates are not provided for a nursery school specifically the closest that they provide is for daycare which is why you're hearing daycare so much all right thank you Christine bass 15 Fairfield terce hi hi there are you thank you for your really detailed presentation I'm Blown Away um I have a number of questions and some may be partially duplicative so just write them down um I didn't hear a lot of speak about the holidays you know when people speak generally in reform about um yam kapor um pass you didn't even uh reference holidays such as Passover porum um Hanukkah first of teit um Shabbat Su Etc um did you look at that um is in terms of traffic studies as well because that's a little bit that was one question right I'm sorry yes it was one question no um I think that's better answered by uh the rabbi or whoever's providing operations testimony okay I'll save that for him um did you do a visual model for yourself and your team in terms of actually like looking at a visual like flow um you know into the space because you talk about it but there really isn't like a clean drop off area or a flow it's like it's a hard you know left or right into the parking lot and there's all these spaces so when people are dropping off you know there's not really a drop off flow Zone it's so the second question is did he do that yes thank you so there there were there was not a a diagram prepared for drop off specifically because it's not it's the intent is for people to to park their cars to drop off or pick up um we did however prepare turning movement templates for the largest design vehicles that and that was testified at the previous year okay um I don't know I know you spoke about and he says um Mr cosor brought that up are you familiar with the cancer center that's going online as part of St barnadas in 2025 did you consider that into your flow is the the cancer rate by 2030 is projected to go up by 79% um Nationwide in terms of the traffic so just increased usage of something existing no it's not existing it's not online till 2025 okay plus you know I'm just giving you sort of a stat of like how much you know it's going to go up in terms of overall usage also at St Barnabas and then there's other properties going on that the fairness to the gentleman that your next question did he consider the that no we did not okay thank you did you consider other properties besides the Annie says properties for example a property you know in Springfield the Metropolitan where is really almost practically part of Short Hills did you consider that property as well or the Wells Fargo property that's in town that's about to come on well it's online but it's not fully occupied this no but just a followup Andrew those other uh projects uh that have been mentioned I mean is that captured or not captured in the background growth that you did look at and did take into consideration it it the background growth rate captures a lot of the development that has been uh uh spoken about this evening um generally where the background growth rate growth rate does not um uh capture all the traffic is if there something immediately adj it to the property because a lot of these developments as Joe stated the traffic disperses the further away that you get from it um I have a question further to that in terms of the background growth rates so you know historically you could sort of look at a factor over a period of 30 years and you know apply your background growth rate but with all these um affordable housing properties coming online it's kind of an anomaly in terms of projections so did you would you consider like adding a different Factor variable into your calculation so if you look at the njtp uh population and employment estimates they're generally on the order of a fraction of a percent annualized um and the background growth rate that we used was 1.75% so the Delta there between between just the population growth rate stipulated by the njtpa and the higher growth rate that we used stipulated by NJ doot seeks to take into account a lot of these developments that are being suggested that are in the vicinity of this of this site that's why we use the higher rate that's why we use NJ doot not just straight njtpa rates okay in terms of um going back to a gentleman's question about the student projection the there are eight classrooms in the building right so I'm just ballparking let's say on average 25 students in a classroom so you have 200 students okay if you're in full use I have to put the background for a question but I have to clarify because your background's in there's five classrooms on the bottom floor for the nursery school there's three that's been testified to that those are Hebrew school on Sunday they two different thank you for clarifying that I was not aware of that okay so it would be less let's just say 75 less students so it' be 125 students for Nursery School correct at Max I I can't speculate on that well I mean didn't you take that into account when you're thinking about your full projection like in three years when they reach Max up you know through marketing you know Etc the max that was reflected to me was 50 so so there' be like 10 are you saying there'd be like projected out like 10 to 15 students in a classroom in terms of the space allocation I I don't know how they would be distributed I don't okay um and then in terms of the flex space I I did want to ask I mean it looks like there's the potential to be over 300 um people present at a service or um you know an event if you open up the space and possibly more depending on how you because if you look at the way the tables are arranged you can actually get more people in that space versus when it's in a lined up seating so perhaps that's perhaps question better for the arit yeah well it I think that it would apply though in terms of you you're fully maxed out there and then maxed out in the what I'm sorry Sor the rabbi shouldn't be speaking to you not a problem so I think applicants Council will address that but but he was he was talking to me he was talking to you okay what was distracting um will the um will the one Jefferson um operation that's currently going on will that cease and assist when this is open and have you taken that into account you haven't been told that yet okay so there's a possibility that it could be operating in a different way I don't okay so we don't know that answer all right um almost done I'm sorry um have you considered doing any type of Runway like a Runway entrance and a Runway exit onto ult Hills Road or parsonage to ease the flow of traffic so people aren't making like a hard left or right you know and it becomes less difficult would obviously take up more land but I was wondering if you had thought about that to reduce the amount of time people have to wait particularly at the parsonage um left hand turn I I think when you say Runway you mean like a like an exit like an exit run you know like a Runway ramp yeah no that was not and would you consider um well I do want to ask you how far is the Park Road in terms of feet from the actual exit onto Old Short Hills Road I was just trying to understand that as the people because as somebody I'm sorry I think he asked him the question right yes thank you for keeping in cheack I appreciate Stephen I'm new to this it's okay thank you about 25 to 30 feet just 30 feet okay um and and for reference NJ NJ do stipulates that driveways uh can be separated by 24 feet okay um but so it's it's it's north correct the yes yours okay so it's north and if you were to place it South would there be the availability to place it like to actually go over the Retention Ponds and possibly put dry wells in those plac so you could move the parking that's out of my area of expertise but if that if the parking was moved down there do you feel that it would be more beneficial to the par Ro residence I can't answer site doesn't have questions I think that's it thank you so much for your time did you say to give address also yeah Charles bambar 37 Keats Road spell your name your last name Charles it's spelled like barbar with an m in there instead of an r b a m b a r a 37 Keats Road in Short Hills I'm a going on 28y year resident I'm also a chemical engineer and I'm a principal in a company that think right now well it's my background so I'm I'm an engineer I'm an engineer so pretending to engineers and and in my field I am not familiar with uh applying percentages of engineering judgment to the degree that that you have so my question to you sir is is it common in the traffic engineering profession to apply arbitrary uh factors such as a 30% sibling rate or anything is it typical to to to use that degree of engineering judgment in your profession because I know it's not in mind so depends on the question and the analysis being done okay um thank you uh the other thing uh I see by the by the plan and by the maps this significant Frontage and property on Old Short Hills Road and on parsonage Hill Road is the um is the building at its minimum set point or is there space to create a third lane along the property line on both parsonage Hill and allsh Hills Road to create a center turn Lane on both of those have you have you looked at a center turn lane on Al Short Hills Road and on Parson Hill Road created by maybe giving up 12 foot of property line on both of those roads I can't speak to the site constraints but there was previously um testimony or Council previously stated um at the at last week's hearing that we would comply with uh a recommendation by the county if some amount of an easement was requested by them for roadway improvements okay because I there's been a lot of discussion that could be so I no more questions I what I would have as comments I'll say those okay thank you it is I me sorry um sorry okay Jessica Maro is to South beachcraft Road um I just want to just say one thing and I know you're going to stop me but I just want to say to the rabbi and his congregation like this I hope this this is not personal well I just want she already told you she was gonna make a statement it's not a question but this is more about the safety of our community which is why I'm getting to my question because this is purely about safety for our community and the congregants I'm curious why so you did your stud in May for Shabbat at 7 p.m. correct like the traffic study was at 7 p.m. on a Friday our traffic counts concluded at 7 p.m okay do you know that what time Shabbat is right now what time Services would start I had that conversation with the rabbi okay and uh there are times of the year when it could be earlier my understanding is that he would have no an attend service if it was earlier because it would be hard for them to to get out of work on time so the earliest that it would occur is 6 p.m. okay I work for a public company plenty of my colleagues leave early so that's that doesn't so there will not be Services before six o'clock I I that's i' all that to help you out uh uh if the uh if this member of the public were to ask if that's something that the opportunity would stipulate to what is the answer at least present that that would come to the rabbi give extensive answers to those so we'll hold it for now okay and have you spoken to Thomas Laden who runs the bus routes through town about how the traffic will affect all the busing in the morning and around 2 o'clock on like early dismissal days no okay um because I okay um and then I know Jefferson Road is currently used as a cut through Street and experiences significant traffic despite the potholes um and that could impact resident access and safety right now I as we know in the mornings but how will like how will the the morning commute the afternoon pickups how will that affect the surrounding streets have you done any studies on that Beyond Park Road but like ones that are parallel um such as Jefferson the my testimony this evening um uh is the extent of our analysis we' not study any intersections beyond what I've testified to okay and I know where we don't know about the Overflow for parking for expen for other events yet so I won't my question though is um can we stipulate that all that parking will no longer be on Jefferson Road creating a one-way Street and causing many people to almost hit people walking cars because on Saturday so right now as you're aware Sun uh Saturday mornings there are a ton of cars parked and it's very dangerous so I have a video but so this is my question fairness I think yes what is the question the question is can we we were talking about like we were talking about not allowing you know no Services w't services will not start till 6 o'clock on Fridays as you as you said can we say like there's and maybe this is for you or for the town I really don't know but can we say like the Jefferson Road will not be used for overflow parking that's creating a one-way Street that's not something this this witness can stipulate too who can uh if the applicant is agreeable to doing it it would be the rabbi okay so I'll ask that later directly or through me okay and does the trip generation that you accounted for also account for employees such as teachers and other maybe maintenance staff custodians Etc or met grounds people yes it does it does it's it rates okay so it you said it was 30 for the parents coming in and out but that also includes par uh employees 30 it's very likely that the employees would come before okay not the same hour that the drop offs occur okay okay thank you Mark Lewis uh 172 Old Short Hills Road when were you first engaged for this uh project uh I don't remember the exact date earlier this year is it beginning of the year or like January or I would say beginning of the year um I can't give you the exact Mar and late winter early spring I'll say and could you bring life for me a little bit of kind of who you interfaced with uh to uh put together this plan that was a part of C Center want to ask excuse me for interrupting you when when you have conversations that's distracting I think for the board so I'm gonna request that you'd not be sort of having side conversations while members of the public Mr L if you could uh either face us a little more or speak into the it's hard yes sorry sorry for the interruption who did I interfere yeah yeah who who from the kai Center other experts could you just bring to life a little bit kind of is they part of a team are you operating solo how how did it work sure so on the the applicant side of things the I interfaced with Council of course the site engineer who previously provided testimony um uh Rabbi um sitting right here today um in addition to that uh I am not the sole preparer of the report um my co-author is a partner with my firm um and we work on projects uh collaboratively interface with the architect uh yes but I would say to a lesser extent than the side engineer but but we uh um obviously had to thoroughly review their plans in order for us to understand floor areas and the like that's I was trying to get a sense for so for the parking lot as an example you're part of the planning for the the parking lot it's a it's it's primarily the the site Engineers um uh initial task and then the design team the applicant team will make adjustments based on some of uh you know board feedback the board's Traffic Engineers feedback um a collaborative effort primarily led by that okay and and how did you come up with I know you talked a little bit about statistically how the traffic patterns vary across the year I'm a lay person when it comes to this how did you choose those dates did you choose them generally speaking outside of maybe the summer months when schools are out of session and you know uh early January late December traffic volumes are extremely consistent so a traffic count in May uh would be very consistent with the traffic count in November how did you choose it though how did you come up with that date that specific time were you directed to do that or was it come from you no it's it was probably the first available uh acceptable date that we could count uh you know once we were ready to um uh uh begin that aspect of the report and the reason I asked without knowing anything I would have said well the the the weekend before was Memorial day and I would think at least in our area you're telling me that I guess I'm you know it's incorrect but in our area in Milburn many families particularly young kids go away for that week so it seems to me that would be a a slow week to to do a kind of micro sample study schools were in session though correct schools were in session but you're actually you know young kids uh often do go away that week as opposed to older older kids most important factor is schools are in session okay so if I could follow up on the projects as well I think I kind of understand some of the commentary but what were the projects when you did it that you were aware of I wasn't clear when I was listening to you were you aware of projects I know you're trying to Define immediate vicinity but certainly just logic whether it's the paper mill Playhouse other what were the things that you were aware of when you put this together I don't have an automized list were you aware of any projects no projects were brought to my attention that met the criteria that I have my staff identify as developments that need to be included in a traffic so none of your staff ever discussed any projects with you none that no no none that qualified for that aspect of building the Nob built condition so if you take something like paper mill as an example which I expect is a major renovation that won't have impact on on traffic patterns in the future that would impact because I would assume everything's integrated you've heard about the cancer center North you've heard about Mr you asked your question and he he did give an answer regarding I just want to make sure you're still asking questions well I don't I don't know if that one was answered whether you asked if he had been made aware of any developments by my question is my question was whether exactly but you have to let him answer yep the application of the NJ do background growth rate is in my opinion acceptable for this analysis that wasn't my question but my question was would you assume there would be any impact by these projects on traffic patterns that would intercede with this project as well potentially yes you've concluded but it's not but you didn't look into it you're just assuming from some statistical work it didn't make sense to look into that I I I'm not sure I know how to answer that question okay not sure if I follow it I'm happy to clarify I assume projects that are expansions and that result in more people going and exiting from places like paper mill will impact traffic I assume that's going to have some impact on traffic along Old CH Hills Road correct that's why we use a DOT approved background growth rate it's doesn't answer my question but but I think he's make a good faith effort to answer your question multiple times that was a yes or no question I think his answer was yes it's an impact and he's contending that the background uh rate covers it and that's his contention and you can that's fine I didn't hear what you just said that that he said it does have impact well I think was that's what I heard okay all good so let me ask you a question when you worked on this project and you can educate me about the role of a a traffic engineer does security of a new development come into play when you're assessing parking and the impact of traffic no and so does emergency vehicles and high volume situations do you ever look into that or take that into consideration yes and how does that process work turning templates are provided and those turning templates uh what type of vehicles are you if I there was extensive testimony about the Turning radi and the templates from a variety of vehicles to our civil engineer that's correct provided at the last meeting yes do you take into consider the types of emergencies and the volume of vehicles that could be going into a facility I think extensive testimony was provided at the last hearing about the ability for emergency vehicles to enter and exit the site about high volume situations emergency threats where there'd be multitude of security vehicles do you take that into consideration I never I did not hear testimony on that we designed the site well the site engineer provided testimony that he designed the site to accommodate emergency response and do you have an understanding of what how the current plan uh is structured to handle high volume of vehicles in an emergency situation I would have to defer to the local police department on what they like to see as far as um accommodations for something like that from an overflow standpoint I heard some back and forth I'm not sure if I understood so forgive me if you already answered this if the property does reach maximum capacity what is the Overflow plan uh one wasn't provided to my attention and is an overflow plan something you would typically think about when you're determining parking within a uh facility like this probably only if we didn't meet the parking requirement but we meet the parking requir so my last point is on living right in the area there the left turn from onto Old Short Hills Road it sure seems from the lay person's eyes that people are going to be coming down there at a nice speed and people are going to be taking that left turn it seems like it's a high risk for Collision what is your thought about just not allowing left turns I I think I Prov provided an extensive amount of information about Crash history and safety um my answer is the same did the police agree with you on that one they didn't provide any statistics or any reason did they give you an opinion though on that left turn I don't believe they they did no there's nothing stated in the police report that we received as part of this application it has anything to do with specific concern about left turn okay thank you hi Andrew cap 18 Madison Terrace k um just a followup real quick on the left turn so we're talking about turning left onto either old Short Hills or parsonage Hill Road those left turns will be allowed and are are uh expected is and that's who typically makes that decision whether that's allowed or not sorry you see a lot of like no left turn signs is that the town or the county or whoever the um maintains jurisdiction over the roadway okay um with 20,000 trips per day right it's per day up old Short Hills Road and is really through through that intersection correct right just through that intersection like would you consider that to be like is there like a designation is that stressed for a two-lane road is that stressed is that very busy is that like if you were evaluating it depends entirely on generally intersection geometry I don't know what I don't know what the follow-up question to that is most people aren't crazy about geometry I what the calcul maybe you're asking him what what's his opinion of this yeah just yeah just in general today like is this a stressed Road it it feels like a very stress road to all of us are you asking him what's his opinion of this particular intersection is your opinion of this particular intersection based on its geometry and the 20,000 people per day on a weekday that go through it is that is that a heavy a heavily used intersection uh that's a fair characterization sure okay um I'm just trying not to repeat other questions for the sake of time um okay okay nothing further thank you Jean Pastak do I have to give my address yep 342 Hobart Avenue thank you may I ask um you to sit down I find it intimidating to have you stand sure thank you and also please not call me a name Rabbi while I'm trying to ask questions thank you as you did earlier um I have a couple questions um what criteria did you use when you were determining the 30% sibling Factor oh so that's conversations with with the applicant with the Ravi and then we took a look at what the it trip generation is for a daycare center of that size the the trips that based on the size of the daycare center were in my opinion far too high um so some sibling reduction uh uh was was taken um based on our conversations and then subsequently we ran a secondary calculation at the request of the board's traffic engineer to see if the volumes that we used in the traffic report were representative and they were found to be representative and after the conversation here today and questions do you still feel confident using that 30% Factor oh yes absolutely okay okay um did you ever um look at or consider Milburn school hours and traffic related to all the different eight different schools and how that traffic impacts that road in that intersection yes and how did you do that could you describe that please my recollection is that the uh first class begins before um the nursery school would begin and the school lets out after the nursery school would would get out so they wouldn't overlap that's just going off of memory but I have the bell schedule here and how did you get that information it's just publicly available so you accessed it from the school's website okay um did you consult anybody at the any um Personnel at Milbourne Township Public Schools regarding School traffic school hours or did you do everything on the website every every vehicle that travels uh through this intersection was counted so if someone was traveling to or from school the day that we counted we accounted for that okay so there was no conversation with anyone correct okay um can you tell me um um the day that you took the video the date of the video that you used to do the counts yes I think it was May was it all three of those days May 30 31 and June 1st or which day was the video taken same days all those three days okay um could you tell me how did you measure and conclude what limited queuing was and that things would remain level service a uh post build yeah so I I I provided testimony on that previously that's based on a Capacity Analysis conducted using um traffic engineering software that's based on the highway capacity manual okay and why did you make the statement that you're you did not propose to move the driveway uh did I state that I wrote it down yep I think moving the driveway I think the shift of the driveway on par Hill Road is a great idea I fully support it okay okay well that's different than what I wrote so um I'm not sure which driveway you're referencing you might have in I don't know which one yeah um was it the one was it the one year Park Road that you were referring to I I wrote down I think it meant the one uh off Old sh's Road yes yeah okay exactly this is okay conversation yeah this is not okay conversation clarify app I'm talking directly is that okay pleas please we treat everyone the same good always that that's all we do good thank you I want to make the statement that I feel intimidated and harassed at this moment by the rabbi all right um like to also say ask this question then um when you when you talked about background growth okay um is it your testimony that in that background growth is the projects including the cancer center at cooperman Barnabas that's not yet online it's still being built the nine Main Street 75 unit project at our town DPW site okay 75 units the Annie says project 149 units the 62 units are you objecting yes I'm OB objection is my objection is this question has been asked answer I think that that might be it's a chair's decision but that might be Val is it a different question than what we heard regarding backround it's not a comprehensive uh list of things that was asked it was a couple of projects were mentioned but I'm trying to get the entire list that I'm aware of of project okay can you add any additional projects that we haven't been mentioned so the the additional ones would be the um 62 units at Woodland 85 Woodland Road um and the I'm not sure if the Wells Fargo project was mentioned I don't remember that one okay um and also one other thing that was not mentioned is the closure potential closure of our main street for entertainment and businesses was is that also part of the background calculation not a potential closure no okay thank you um how will the increased traffic affect access from emergency vehicles on this primary artery in your professional opinion there would be a limited impact on the primary artery and and what about people who are in those emergency vehicles such as in our um volunteer first aid squad car going to St Barnabas would that delay could it potentially what impact could it have on actual arrival times and time to get to the hospital it would be a delay on the order of on Old Short Hills Road yeah um seconds less than five seconds that's your testimony would be a 5c delay I think actually even less okay um members of the public continue to um what did you consult with the fire department in any of your analysis that fire that would be the side engineer okay um the volunteer first aid Squad no you you didn't okay um sorry just keep going uh What mechanisms are in place to monitor traffic conditions after the Project's completion did you recommend anything like that that's a question for the the board okay or its professionals thank you okay um is is um do you do you anticipate any issues with enforcement if traffic impacts exceed the projections uh that's not under my purview him it's that's a Township issue okay um was any input from local residents and um Property Owners incorporated into your findings at any time my findings no okay um do in your professional opinion do you think that the type of increased traffic that's going to occur after this project is built will have any impact on local property values I can't answer that okay um um were pedestrian and cyclist safety impacts assessed yes neither this intersection or road is on any screening lists for pedestrian or safe or or cyclist safety so there's and and you were not uh projecting any increased pedestrian traffic as a result of this project in your analysis my understanding is that the majority of people who who um will visit will drive here okay if if I may just for your benefit there was testimony from our civil engineer that there were a number of recommendations from the board's professionals to upgrade not only the existing sidewalk along Old Shore Hills Road to make it compliant with current safety standards ADA compliance mountable ramps flashing all of which the cap can agreed to and and would be part of the installation okay I just wondered how that impacted what you did your work knowing that those things were recommended is that going to help with traffic slow it down what impact will having those uh those things that were just described that would be a benefit to pedestrians it wouldn't affect vehicular level of service or okay um how how do you think the increased traffic will contribute to noise and air pollution in this surrounding area which gets to the quality of life question that came earlier I can't answer noise or or air so in your professional opinion and other projects that you've worked on do you think that this project will increase noise and air traffic pollution or keep it the same or decrease I can't I'm I'm not a noise and air quality expert and um the traffic mitigation measures that were proposed do you believe that they address adequately The increased congestion and safety concerns I think that the council's discussion at the last hearing about complying with requests from the county for um a potential easement um uh on our property for for potential improvements to the roadway is um uh not to be overlooked if I may just to clarify that issue is is with regard to existing encroachments and it was first erased in Mr ped's uh report and that whole discussion in cqu had to do with the African's willingness to Grant an easement if the county were to require it in order to uh kind of paper if you will existing existing enoses it was not with regard to enhancements of the intersection or improvements to the intersection just want to clar thank you my apologies my last question is in your professional experience and opinion when someone gives you a cap of number of students in a project like this um H have you ever seen it monitored and how um accurate does that turn out to be years down the road that's a Township question I don't know how it's monitored thank you okay thanks for the question I just wanted to State I think um and I think G you probably do know this but um all applications are provided to uh you know our town police force fire department the Forester um all of our town professionals they review the applications for the benefit of somebody who may not know who in the audience um and they they provide a written report to the board for our review so we are receipt of those reports from our town professionals thanks um I believe you asked questions already oh can't ask another one I just want to make sure if there's somebody who hasn't had a first round opportunity um come on up um let's do that first good evening hi um how um my name is Natalia Karina I can spell it for you it's k a s h i r i n a and I live on 20 Park uh road too far away from me uh so I have a few questions to you uh the first one uh you said that school opens at 9:00 a.m. correct uh the nursery school hours of operation are proposed to be 9:00 a.m. to 2 p.m. correct so most likely people will bring their kids before 9:00 a.m. right if it starts at 9:00 you know normally people try to be there before 99: correct uh to a certain extent I also will understand that there is some flexibility with respect to uh needing to be there precisely at 9:00 a.m. but predominantly probably around 9: right sure yeah so I can you please uh tell me why you decided to change time for your stud and you made it from 9:30 till 9 from 8:30 till 9:30 a.m. because I believe 9 p.m 9 a. will be the PE sorry because might be testimony but the question okay the question yes yes question uh because the start time is 9:00 a so so why at 8:30 to 9:30 for the hour so wouldn't be more correct to select a uh time frame between 830 till 9:00 a.m. because that's what mainly people will be dropping their kids my understanding is that there is some flexibility in that if someone needs to drop off their child at 9:15 920 9:30 that's allowed so is it preschool or school will it be class starting at 9:00 am I I can't answer that it's better for operation wasn't your testimony that it was Nursery School you know pre kindergarten age children that's correct so that's prek correct that's my understanding yes so if it's prek there will be class starting at 9:00 a.m. and people need to be there at 900 a.m. or 855 ideally um that's not my understanding but I could be corrected when you hear um operation system okay understood so would you say if mainly people were dropping their kids between 8:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m there will be more cards coming in that particular shorter period of time uh I I'm not sure I agree with that are you not sure or what's your answer yes no can you repeat the question if we take a shorter period of time when people have to be dropped off but by 9:00 a.m. would you say there will be more cards coming between 8:30 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. if we take that short a period of time and you know that kids to be dropped off at 9:00 a.m. if there there's no flexibility with respect to when children can be dropped off yeah then there would be some concentration of drop off so be AG so will be more of backing up of traffic around no there would be no backing up of traffic the the there the site has 95 parking spaces and the nursery school is anticipated to have 50 students so we're projecting on the order of 30 Vehicles dropping off those 50 students give or take the site the site is is large enough where any of that activity will not back up onto the adjacent Road well this contradicts what you said earlier you said the waiting time on the Crossroads Bar Bar Hill roads in short heels will increase by two and a half times that's a that's a question um I don't think so sorry going into diog question not AR okay so going back to um that crossroads and when um actually let's go back to your map of the parking spaces can we turn it on again dead is it dead oh no okay I guess we all remember it anyway exhibit okay we have it in our brain exhibit A1 the record correct counselor correct yes than so how many parking spaces do you have in the lower parts of the parking 24 24 okay this cancels my my one of my questions it's fine um I guess we you can't answer the question about pollution so we're going to skip that one so with the traffic backing up on the um you know you know we can't turn for extra two and a half minutes now to the paron shield road to from paron Shield road to Short Hills we have a bus school bus coming uh at you know in the morning to pick up our kids around 8:40 uh how long will it take this bus um to leave Park Road with all our kids we have a lot of them uh I didn't study Park Road but probably um uh the same as the less delay than Parson CH Road okay do you think you need to study Park roads additionally no why not because Park Road only accommodates 30 homes and the amount of traffic is minimal well there 35 families don't you think they're not important no I think they are important but um we need to focus our our analysis on the site driveways themselves and the most important critical intersection which is clearly do you think your project is more important than existing residence by critical do you mean the higher volumes yes I don't think he's making a judge judgment I apologize if it came off that way it came off very wrongly editorial comments okay I have one more question and I'm done okay right um that's a fair objection we should all stop the editorial comments including myself I apologize okay um sorry you mind sitting down I'm inting I'm just a little I'm just I'm just a little I'm just a little war here just little woman thank you um do you think um an intense overflow of traffic on 20 Park roads affects the well-being of the residents uh I don't think there will be an overflow of traffic I don't think I testified to that are you aware of the Overflow of traffic on 20 Park Road on on Park roads that happened during High holiday season this year no no are you aware of any police reports from the residents of Park Road when they were intimidated by the visitors of the chai Center at Jefferson Road no thank you I think that's all for you um Madam chair I'm noticing that it is past 10:30 and it seems to be our accustom to end that because I know many MERS the public and the board we have jobs in the yes thank you actually we went ahead and looked back at the the bylaws that we had adopted this year especially just in light of the the time and the duration of the meetings um we actually have 11: p.m. as adopted as our as our C off time so that's good as I like 1030 um we are we are permitted by our own doing uh for the next 25 minutes yeah thank you thank you for raising it um but a good time check for everybody we will be moving towards wrapping up shortly I thank you welcome uh Bailey Lewis 172 Old Short Hills Road um old Short Hills Road can you describe it for everyone sure um provides one lane in each Direction um it's approximately 30 feet wide I believe it has a speed limit of 35 miles per hour carries approximately uh 20,000 vehicles per day bestan accommodations along the road are very limited um signalized intersections are sparse um and it is a uh County Road north of parsonage and can you describe parsonage sure sure um approximately a third of the traffic of of uh old Short Hills Road also a County Road uh parking is prohibited in both directions um very limited pedestrian accommodations even less in Old Short Hills Road um and uh I'll stop you there no parking is allowed on either side right no parking so have you ever visited or driven by temp near you or in the area during the high holidays have you ever driven by just seen uh not in not in a um uh not as my role as a traffic engineer just over the you know in the course sure that's what I mean as general person General observance yes and what have you observed there is a lot of activity and can you describe that type of activity that's a a just from your personal experience I don't want to I don't want to elaborate on that yeah I want to keep it gerain to the application okay but I'm getting to a point okay so um have you noticed that there are usually so the temples that are nearby are all on more than one lane of Road they're on multiple Lanes of Road have you noticed that they block off a lane during High holidays with the police with cones with security have you notice that is that something that you've observed um no specifically on South Orange Avenue no um okay so you're not aware of that extra traffic and that extra security even though we're going to comply on a two two-lane road there's no do you see that there's any room on parsonage to block off a lane with cones and have police directing people for those High holidays just like they would on South Orange Avenue there's a couple of temples on that side that do that i I can't speculate on how the township would decide to control traffic if at all during the high holidays okay and then I just want to elaborate a little bit on what Jean was getting at um so with all these projects that are potentially happening or happening within a mile I I did a little Google everything's within a mile the cancer center the paper mill the dump site um well Annie says is a little farther um but everything's within a mile so there is growth there um and then she also mentioned the the closing of Main Street in the summer months um are you you aware about the closing of Main Street between Essex and uh mbour F no okay so um I'm going to get to an question there was a closure a couple years ago we closed that off in the summer and a man died on or almost died on the way to a h to the hospital to St barnas so ORD Hills Road is a Traverse to the hospital from Cranford Maplewood um you know know Union Springfield are you aware of that did you did you count emergency vehicles were emergency vehicles here's my question emergency vehicles were they counted um separately from cars no okay so you couldn't tell me how many times a day emergency vehicles go up and down old Short Hills Road no or parsonage Hill Road neither okay because today a fir truck came from parsonage Hill Road and right sorry um I just so so there was no consultation between the fire department the police department the first aid I ask and answer yeah as as I was just speaking as you came up I was just noting that we do the fire department police department receive this uh application and then they provided written comments okay but they didn't really talk about response time response time up old Short Hills Road and they do keep very good statistics they know about their call volume and they know about response have a question of this witness with respect to that uh well I guess he answered it because there was nothing taken into consideration thanks uh Jerry Kung KU n 17 Lee terce um all right sorry I have have a lot of notes here so if I'm a little jumbled I apologize in advance if there are four or more cars queuing on parsonage Hill waiting to make a left turn onto Old Short hilles Road Northbound is it the case that cars making cars wanting to make a right turn would not be able to get past to get to that flared portion that you mentioned earlier yes okay did you consider the case where individuals if if there's a q because there's discussion of the que so I'm just going to focus on that did you consider the case where individuals that want to make a right onto Old Short Hills Road if they're stuck in the queue they may decide to cut through the parking lot of the house of worship and then the daycare because there's two exiting Lanes on Old Short Hills Road from that erress um I think it's extremely unlikely um I I can you quantify extremely un because people in this town they sit in traffic here so so here's how I would here's how I would answer that the the Q links that I previously provided testimony for were for the worst 15minute period uh of the day and even then it didn't uh uh exceed the driveway spacing and I already provided an explanation for why I think that number uh will actually be less in the future what is that worst 15 minutes of the day um it's a uh a 15minute period between 8:30 a.m. and 9:30 a.m not worst 15 minutes of the day the worst 15 minutes uh of our study hour so would overlap with I believe uh the lady I think two questioners prior was making the point about 8:30 to 9:30 is the concentrated time is that correct so that is the worst time of the day so that was speculative I don't know if that's the case wait I so so what is the 15minute period time that is the worst just to be clear the one 15 minute period between 8:30 a.m. and 9:30 a.m. that we well in in tra now I'm answering the public questions from the public yeah yeah just answer the question Capacity Analysis calculations are performed using an hourong volume in which you apply a peak hour factor to calculate that 15minute period so it's a 15minute period between 8:30 and 9:30 we don't study just just we don't enter 50 okay I I understand so so your the granularity of what you study is one hour correct okay understood um so going back so you did not consider the case where individuals may decide to cut through the parking lot I spent a lot of time reviewing video at this intersection I spent a lot of time there to be clear the video at the intersection does not include a cut you wouldn't no one would cut through a private Residence at the current moment you'd probably have to drive past a demolished property even to get from Parson old Short Hills Road is that correct I I think my answer to your question is I do not believe people will drive through this site to avoid the intersection that's my answer in your professional if I may cutting through private property as a cut through to avoid a public intersection is not is not legal it's not a legal turning Court could take qu judicial notice of that okay um will there be signage or striping on parsonage Hill Road not to block the entrance to the parking lot if traffic backs up if it's the board's desire okay um and so just for my personal modification there was a discussion earlier about the queuing discussion you said 150 seconds based on the model fine you disagree with the model sorry I'm just laying the groundwork for my question um you said at some point the 95th percentile Q length is 13 Vehicles is that correct uh that sounds right okay what were the assumptions because did that assume that the right turn movement did you did you assume that anyone wanting to make a right turn movement would be able to make that movement even though you can't make that movement if there are four or more cars waiting to make the left turn movement northward on do Hill Road yes we took that into account okay varable good um and then can you explain to me because I'm just a lay person what 95th percentile looks like because you know the peak hour is the 95th percentile there's 24 hours in a day so it's top top 4% right right 5% so 100 longer so just to make it clear Almost 100% of the time that Q length will occur on the peak hour per day right because when you say 95th percentile that's one out of 24 hours so that's the peak hour and then so every day that peak hour will happen on a week day say did percentile Q length is the um the the length that represents um 95% of the time or less the que will be that amount so the peak hour right because well there's a different 95th percentile Q length for each peak hour so the 95th percentile just so it's clear is per day when you say 95th analysis period so for every 20 for every 20 peak hour for every 20 peak hour weekdays the Q length will hit 13 cars on one of those that's what you mean when you say 95th percentile is that correct no for any analysis period that we study okay so let's say the analysis period is what it's the peak it's the hour or the day hour okay so let's fix 8:30 to 9:30 which is the peak hour if I go Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday five days how many times would you expect there to be a q length of at least 13 I think it would occur once per Peak era okay so so the point is every single day during which there is a peak hour there will be a q length of about 13 on average plus or minus some standard deviation and I've given reasons why I do not believe it is that long okay but Bas on the outputs of the model that is what the model is telling you given the inputs that you may or may not disagree with is that correct correct okay so okay so I'm going to move on to another intersection which is the intersection with Park Road and Old Hills Road um I know there's a lot of discussion but I I think there were a few other questions I had related to this so the distance was covered okay so if there's cars making right turns out of the daycare parking lot they're they're going Southward M and there's cars making a left turn from Park Road onto ult Hills also going Southward right so I guess old Hills Road is here sorry exit is here and Park Road is here if South is down um so you have two cars this guy's wanting to go right this guy's wanting to go left who has right of way they they can see each other right yeah but is it like a game of chicken like who gets there first so it it they got there at exactly the same time who goes first if they got there at the exact same time the they would they would have separate independent decisions whoa whoa whoa they would have separate independent decisions Sor here and and is there a reference to a traffic rules of the road that might be we might be asking about yes it's it's a challenging question because uh because of the circumstance um you know what I I I don't want to speculate I'd be happy to provide an answer um um uh after the fact so suffice it to say if you as a traffic engineer don't know the rule someone pulling up the intersection will also probably not know the rule is that a fair statement I'm not sure that's a fair statement okay that that that's fine um okay so I had a follow-up question related to that which is if there's a q of people wanting to make right turns Southward in the daycare parking lot and there's a Quee of people wanting to make left turns from parkroad Southward I if if for examp and I don't okay if there is actually a right of way issue do the cue of people in the daycare have to exit first and then the people in Park Road because then like I guess we'll just have to understand I'll just have to answer that question after you get the followup response for us because that seems like it could potentially be problematic um okay uh sorry few other questions here did I hear you correctly when you said there are anticipated to be five Mitzvah events each year but there's also 50 students anticipated at the daycare yeah okay uh is that a reconcilable number because I would assume that people at the daycare would also it just the the ratio doesn't seem to make sense because you seem to have to have 10 years of daycare to do the five to 50 ratio but I don't know yeah that's um okay and so correct me if I'm wrong you said earlier that the number of left turn movements onto Park Road is comparable to left turns onto parsonage from ORD Hills Road no or okay can you refresh my memory as to what you were you were making some comparison in terms of traffic on to Park Road versus traffic onto parsonage Hill from old Hills Road I was saying that the delay for people leaving Park would be less than the delay for people leaving the delay for people making a right turn off of Park is less than the can you yeah so why don't I why don't I simplify it so we analyze the the uh the operations of the proposed um Parson and chill uh Road dve driveway the old Short Hills Road driveway I'm going to site our analysis because it'll probably be roughly the same amount of volumes Park during the morning peak hour we are seeing a delay of 31.6 seconds for the old Short Hills Road Site driveway and that's for uh that's for the build condition in the morning peak hour so park would probably be similar to that is that based off of an analysis or or is that a conjecture that's based off the analysis of the site driveway okay because I was was am I incorrect in that you didn't study traffic coming off of Park you only TR stud traffic going into Park from old HS I'm giving you the analysis of the parsonage the old Short Hills Road Site driveway which I think is comparable in volume to park you think can you just is that a like engineering like as conjecture or is like is that based on fact based on my understanding of the trip generation manual 30 something so not based in reality it's a it's a model I think that an expectation of 16 egress trips during one peak hour is probably comparable to that of the RO that you're talking about no more question thank you great um as we approach you know having five minutes left can I just see a show of hands of how many members of the public who haven't yet had opportunities to ask questions are still looking to ask questions second okay you have a second question uh we're just gonna go for the first round for for right now um and I think I see two hands okay uh are members of the board willing to hear the questions from these two members of the public I guess it depends how long it's going to take this is going to take 30 minutes no it's going to be 5 10 minutes assuming that it's 5 10 minute reasonable okay okay let's see you come please keep awareness of everybody's time and energy yeah it's very limited my name my name is Francisco Del Campo I live at 28 Park Road in Short Hills and um I want to touch upon a a point that was made regarding the models right a lot of your work is based on the models that you put into it you know and the data you put into it I know there was a bit of a gasp regarding the 152nd 95th percentile issue and you were quick to dismiss that with respect to model doesn't handle that particularly well but your whole basis is our models and yet why are they why are those models okay and this one not okay is it because it's an unfavorable result what makes that 152nd time unique in terms of a flawed model versus others drivers accepting smaller gaps than the standard and the platooning of vehicles or the grouping of vehicles traveling along the roadways and you think that is sufficient to dismiss not dismiss but downplay the 152nd weight uh I I don't think I think or do you think just over purose of the Gap availability study um was to show that there were adequate gaps for the existing no build and build condition despite what the model is representing but all the other models are perfect I didn't say that or very good at least I didn't say that fair did not say that not very good okay just the question please well you know he's testifying to the inadequacy of one model well what about the other models then ask that question a it's a fair I know but there was going uh regarding the gaps when you define a gap is it a gap between car let's you know I'm taking the instance where I'm say on parsonage Old Road want to get on to old Short Hills Road making a left does the gap is the gap defined as the distance between the cars going in one direction or both if in fact I wish to make a left left turns both directions both directions and it's different uh if I'm making a right it's one dire One Direction one of the things um a previous questioner asked regarding the driveway and I think the driveway with respect to the the exit onto Old Short Hills Road I think you intimated that that was the best location for the driveway giving the given the location of the drainage basin correct if the drainage basin were not there would you have placed that driveway in a different location I I would have to take a look at the the the setbacks the property lines I can't speculate on that okay because it seemed implied um again on the topic of models models require inputs and two of the inputs that are gerain to the the issue or the number of students right and the size of the congregation that's going to attend the services right that's yes correct yes okay I took it as he said we got it the court and uh those inputs regarding students and the size of the congregation was that did that come from the applicant with respect to your questioning or was it volunteered is that fair or was it some other source students number of students number of congregants applicant applicant and given have you had have you performed similar studies for either synagogues or schools yes of similar sizes and if so are the number of students and are the number of congregants for those schools that and synagogues that you worked are they similar in proportion oh I don't I I don't know that granular of the detail you kind but you know what I'm trying to get at all I can say is that we cited The Institute of Transportation Engineers trip generation manual for a synagogue of this size we used that okay for the data that was provided by the applicant whichever was high right and I guess my my simple point there would have been that if had you used size for example and that's my that's my question I'm sorry what's your question whether in fact the size of the site the synagogue the school allowed you to draw the inference that yeah it's going to be 50 students and yeah it's going to be about 300 congregants or whatever it was was that that that was that a fair inference that you drew I used it okay let me just see if I have one more no the other one was the egis from Park Road so I think everything's covered thank you thank you very much okay last this is the last witness who's you're asking your first question I'm going to exercise my discretion as the chair not to allow second round questions just given the time and given the fact that we've given unlimited time for questioning to members of the public so okay uh Steven Char from par um so I I read the your report so and in today's testimony you you mentioned that that you delays is there any reason you're not including the delay and and those c l information or or or expected time to to to uh uh uh expected time to to to to go go go to each each of the those direction for example like the um in in your your your your study we did include that uh we provided a summary table and the output sheets I mean what wasn't included initially and and that back in the no it was okay um so so the so cutting the the question short so like for like for example emergency vehicle um passing passing suit in intersection so so uh so what's the the current expect time expected time to for for for the for emergency vehicle from to to go from from to to go northb southb and and from from uh from person H to to to also here here North and or and and South what the the current expected time so suppose that they want to to to to to do a trip so so what's the the the suppose that the the so what's the current amount of time needed to go through the the intersection so I like to compare with the time uh passing through the intersection uh after you you open up the the nursery there's no delay in the southbound Direction on hill in the Northbound direction there's on the order of 5 Seconds of delay well the five 5 second delay proba for the the car in front we're talking about averages but but then then yes but but then when the car St building up and and then when when the traffic stop then the the car will will have to to go from speed zero so and and then actually really good question is like uh so the currently I think the the the average speed going through that that that s of O here here Road Northbound probably like like 20 miles per per hour and and then if we see increased traffic especially the the the this the have pig Riv just before the the the the opening of yourday sches Nursery so how much delay are we expecting I mean how how much more Comm Comm commuting time expected in the Northbound Direction yes maybe a second more in each peak hour well I mean well that that's that that's the the that that's probably the ER case that I just want to know if you're asking a question yeah yeah so what's going to be the the worst case well I've I've seen seen the cop up from from from from from Sor I'm having trouble Council I'm sorry just if I can ask you to minimize the conversation I'm hearing you instead that's not rare in the morning hour I've seen that's my answer you could ask them a followup question all right so um so if um if you we pre prevent the the people from from making uh left turns from from the the the per person personage Hill Rose to the to the to the property would I have this impact to to the current traffic pattern so turns the par Road driveway only no no from personage here here that you have entrance here entrance to to property so yeah if if you prevent the uh nonemergency vehicle from from making a left turn into the the property but would that have the the least uh traffic impact no and and why is that so so if people you asked them why you have to give me a chance to answer yes go ahead why there would be no impact I don't think there would be an impact on anything if left turns into the site on pars Hill Road were restricted I think people were not not were not travel with that segment of oal heill roads and then but both oo here World North SP and sou SP but will not be affected I'm really not following the question I apologize so yeah yeah if you if if if we prevent uh people from making a left turn into your your your property on on on on personal sh Ro right Ro SP uh with with with those car be be becoming through o oal he Road no that's an erress only driveway yeah Ultra is only exit so no no no my car people have no way of getting in unless they go like yes yeah so so the people will have to to go around to to but is you're asking a question of if they change the traffic pattern what would happen yes so so if we prevent people from making left and such that like all people entering the property will have to go go through but is your question not about what they're proposing you're asking a scenario yes yeah so yes and would that would that have the least impact on on on TR pattern yes if if you're restricting the left turn into the site from pars Hill Road that would have an impact on traffic patterns because it would be a very circuitous route to get into the s yes but only for those people going into your propy but not not for everybody else right correct just for just for people who desire to access our site correct right okay thank you okay thank you um that's all next I'm sorry can I ask a question next time I know you're gonna shut shut it down can you can ask we're shutting it down for the evening and we've asked we've allowed everybody I think we are completed questions for this witness at this time I have one one quick one quick question I just pulled up the the police report the police report says um the exit onto Old Short Hills Road as the plan stands allows for left terms to be made from the property this can possibly cause collisions between the vehicles exiting the property in southbound traffic on Old Shore Road so my question because I think there had been some question about whether that had been mentioned in the police report it looks like there's some concern about that so my question is whether it would be possible to limit the times of day when leftand turns be made from the property onto Old Short Hills Road given the police report concern about possible collisions my opinion is that there we've shown adequate sight lines and there are gaps in traffic so there's no need to restrict that t can I can I so you don't think that the um that Chief Gila has a um concern that memb of the public please taken you know from his expertise as a serious concern well I I I think we took it very seriously we prepared sight line exhibits we conducted an except extensive Gap availability analysis and based on those two um time intensive exercises I made my my conclusion okay can I can I ask our traffic consult yes so if I understand the qu the police were asking about prohibiting the left turn that's my that's my my response to Chief Gil feder's concern that there could possibly be collisions from people making leftand turns out of the property and another car that's coming that and and just to clarify he was not he does not suggest in the report that those terms be prohibited he just expressed a potential he expressed a potential concern so I'm just asking whether there we could limit you know between 8:30 and 9:30 you can't make a left turn out that is something the board consider that can consider that section is under is under Municipal control I would not recommend it simply because as you've heard we did confirm that adequate site dis es available and especially given that it's a one-way driveway any of those cars that want to go north would then have to make either make an illegal left turn or would have to make the right turn and then turn around somewhere whether it was in there someone else's driveway or a k turn in the middle of the street I W before you prohibit turns you have to you want to think about unintended consequences I don't want to my concern would we wouldn't be fixing that problem by prohibiting it we' just be moving that problem somewhere else and moving it to someone else's property that if there is a delay making the left turn out of the site then put that delay on this site where it's handled by the this applicant has to deal with it if we were just to prohibit that left turn that moves the problem further down the road to other residents where you may have you know u-turns in somebody's driveway or somebody doing a k turn in the middle of the street okay so you feel like the sidelining that was done adequately addresses the police chief's concerns about hit yes it's a combination of the delay the the Gap in delay study to confirm that there are gaps available to make the turn and that there's sufficient site distance to do so okay thank you and just adding to that Madam chair hearing all the uh concerns about Park and Park Road and coming out on that and is close to this exit um and in and entrance and we do have a professional could we request that we get more information and a study be done on Park yes uh which I think is desperately needed here um you know because of the concerns also the traffic and also because it's so close to the entrance so the failure not to request that prior but before we get out of this I think Now's the Time to ask if he can add a revision and add par grad to that report and what is the typical radius outside I mean you know it's not it's within a 50 foot radius well they fall feet of notice so if it's within the notice I would think that would make sense I mean it seems like there's a lot of people that have a lot of concerns that live on that street it's within the notification area to me I think it's a reasonable request and I don't you know I don't know how we as a board decide whether we can order that or not if the if it's uh if the board is requesting the applicant to do that then the question is first to the applicant will will the applicant voluntarily do so um I think the no voluntarily the applicant would not I mean the applicant has commissioned a tra may I public please man I think my request was that we have our own professional I was I was going to go to Mr Fishinger next so from the applicants standpoint I mean they commissioned a professional traffic report from a well-known traffic engineering firm that was thorough that was done in consultation with the board's traffic consultant who did not request or recommend that a separate study uh be done of of that particular Road the fact that it's in inside or outside the 200 foot radius is really irrelevant that's for an entirely different purpose under the ml for different reasons um and this is another discussion that we'll be getting to eventually there is a time period within which boards are supposed to act on these applications and in light of the extensive questioning that's gone on tonight and the extensive testimony that's been provided by two experts one of whom is independent and testifying on behalf of the board further burdening the applicant with that type of additional study is is not consented to and the applicant would maintain not appropriate here Madam chair I'd like to make a motion that we hire our infant traffic experts to give us information on Park Road I'd like also more clarification um identifying the preschool Nursery daycare uh because of the 30% sibling um piece uh preschool is three to four year olds I don't know too many families that have children less or a year apart that's not the average so I would like a little more information on how the calculations been made I have no doubt that we're talking to professionals I think now we're getting into areas of congestion and traffic and I think the public is asking for this I understand I want to defer to council to talk about the time in which we have to act on it just to make sure I I I don't know if we could get that type of data well I think the first important question frankly is is is is is it appropriate for traffic engineering perspective but we we have retained an independent expert as a board is the independent traffic expert that the municipality before this application started had on uh uh uh had on the payroll so to speak uh for for this type of uh uh thing so we we we we retained at the cost of the applicant uh through westro Mr Fishinger so if you're asking Mr Fishinger whether it's appropriate in his opinion for this to be done and if he could do it or the applicant should do it maybe those are appropriate questions for Mr Fishinger questions so I'll try and deal with this in a couple of parts I will first note that I did me did bring up and we discussed this it was comment 15 in my report before I did bring up the concern of the location in on the driveway with respect to Park Road and you've heard their response to that um I still do have concerns about the proximity of that driveway to Park Road I think they should be aligned the drainage basin can be moved the as far as whether I can do the an I'm my firm is is capable of doing the analysis similar to Mr vos's firm we can we can do that if the board asks as Mr Warner is intimidated the town on a regular basis will retain me to to look at various traffic issues throughout the town whether it's do we put a stop sign here what do we do about parking there when there's something that the town can't handle internally that's why I'm on call so first of all you said it's reasonable and appropriate to have it done the next question is who does it is that fair yes okay and then is more appropriate in your opinion for the applicant to do it you to review Andor followup or the other way around generally speaking it's I think it's more appropriate for the applicant to do the the analysis and my office to review it that's is that whole in part because it's the applicant's burden approval yes so we have information now from Mar expert I'm sorry for cutting you short I just wanted to get to the point of that but there may have been more yeah and I wanted to cover the issue with the 30% students I think there's some Mis understanding there what the reason that the whole reason why I asked for a condition that if that the preschool be limited to 50 students and if they wanted to go over that they would have to come back to the board was because their analysis is saying 50 students whether the building is 8,000 square feet or 6,000 or 10 the the updated analysis that they gave us is based on 50 students whether those 50 students are some of them are siblings I'm sure there are some because as we've heard 50 students does not equate to 50 cars so is it fair to say if you if they agree to cap the 50 students they haven't done that yet at least but they're considering it uh then there's no need for the sibling analysis to be done because 50 50 whe that is my opinion whether they're 50 siblings or 50 unrelated individuals because of that in because of that concern I have a similar concern why I wanted to say all right they're saying 50 students we limit it to 50 students if sometime in the future they decide they want to go to 75 then they would be back in front of this board with 50 do you still have do do you have a concern and do you think it's appropriate for the sibling to be addressed further or or not if they're not willing to stipulate 250 students then I think we need their trip generation needs to be based on the full square footage of the building without a 30% reduction be beyond that and and so in your opinion would it be reasonable for that to be done and appropriate to be done and if so who should do that in your opinion I think if they're not willing to stipulate to 50 students then then I think their analysis needs to be revised to reflect the correct student count I think you wait and I'm trying to help done all I try apologize for when I failed but the the the the uh are those the two issues that and we now have heard from our expert retained on behalf independently on behalf of the board uh to help the board make an informed decision with respect to this application uh those two issues with uh it's fair and reasonable to request both uh the latter at least until there's a stipulation to limit to 50 students and it's fair and reasonable and appropriate in his opinion for the applicant to do those studies and for him to review and and go from there so I guess that brings it back to the applicant and is the applicant still refusing to do either or both we need more information to be honest if I can when I talk to my attorney or does council want to consult with his client in order to respond yeah I need to Madam chair five minutes or three minutes e e e e e e e e e e okay back yeah we're back on please thank you all right so I've had an opportunity to consult with uh with my client it's still a little unclear in our minds exactly uh the scope and the nature of the study but I can say that the app we are willing to communicate with the board's traffic engineer get a little bit more detail as to what he thinks that the the appropriate scope of that study might be as I understand it there kind of two outstanding issues at the moment the the kind of the 30% sibling credit issue and whether or not we are willing to cap the number at 50 or not is and then the second discret issue as I understand it is which would be helpful if we had a little bit more clarity the alignment of the egress driveway relative to park and whether they should be staggered as they're shown now or or aligned is that the gist of the issue no I don't think it's up to the public to answer that question and and Mr f I think that was I I can clarify but I think he's probably more great yes my the exact alignment would have to be laid out by the S engineer but I would like to see this driveway opposite Park whether or not the through movement the ability to go from this site straight in the park is permitted I don't think that is very important but I would rather see all the movements happen at the same time so if there are two cars that show up about the same time they can see each other they'll be able to know who's turning which way so that would mean relocating the driveway F closer to the southern par property line does that capture your question mine was a little more that uh we don't know what's happening on park right now uh with old Short Hills Road so I'd like to see as it as it stands now after we do a report about the traffic on Park and what it would look like by changing it to a four-way um in my mind because I was even confused when they were arguing who goes first well it's not a four-way stop so again if we could get clarity on that I don't know I don't know if I'm the only one that feels this way but I think it sounds like there's not adequate data on the impact of this with Park and we need to have that data and once we have that data our engineer will be able to determine whether it would make sense to have the driveway and Park Road line up if that would be an improvement to Quality of Life whatever or not but in order to measure it we have to quantify it so I think what we're saying is we need understanding background data on the part if they're willing to stipulate to move the driveway and our engineering saying that's that's safe anyway that we can cut off some time and money on report well not only that it sounds as though what you're suggesting is for us to do a study with respect to a a a a road that not only are we not fronting but you know is it's not it's not offsite is that's I'm sorry it's not onsite or even on track as those terms are defi are defined under the ml um I think that's a little beyond the scope of what the applicant should be required to do if it's a no if if it's looking at whether or not the egress driveway can be better aligned or precisely aligned with park I think that's something that we're willing to look into and that more you would stipulate that that's within the scope of on-site offsite Ingress regress so that even under Duck Donut a Doctrine which is case law that limits the authority of this sport legally which they have to consider uh but for that you would agree that's that's on-site or Ingress and erress and within the scope of authority I agree with yes I think even on a fully conforming site plan under the Dunkin Donuts line yes thank you which is distinct distinct and very different in my view from an analysis of Park I understand the contention um the and and uh so so with respect to that aspect uh they're they're stipulating their position is it's beyond the scope of authority on of the board on a fully conforming site plan and um but their position but we are willing to investigate the possibility of re of realigning that erass which may be strictly a civil engineering fund and and their civil engineer and traffic engineer in conjunction with Mr Fishinger and Miss Callahan so that that should that that they're agreeing is within the scope of the board's Authority legally and factually um which is if it's not within our Authority legally and factually so be it but that they agreeing it is and and I concur it is with it that is within Authority as far as the 30% what are you willing to say uh I just uh we have the reserve judgment on that well judgment to the cap of 50 students oh you're either gonna agree the cap to 50 or if not uh are you going to work in conjunction with the traffic engineer with respect okay so yes so so so that's what they're willing to do and is it reasonable to assume that that could be done uh uh uh in advance of uh if I understand correctly December 4 is the next hearing date uh and if I understand correctly it's available uh to continue this application uh uh uh can it be done within that time well we believe so but if for some reason it can't um I would hope the board would agree that uh test both operational testimony and also architectural testimony could stand on its own right and and and and eventually would that information would be addressed yes okay and uh is the applicant stipulating in light thereof to an extension of time to act at least uh through to and including uh the December four next meeting even though that is two days beond on the initial 95 day uh time frame we do yes okay and uh will the applicant uh stipulate to going beyond that to the December 18 meeting in the event that meeting is available uh to continue this application uh not at this time I would rather take these hearings one at a time uh it you know it's been a long painful process it's only beginning maybe in some respects um we don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves I think it's important to stay focused and that these are are processed as efficiently as possible so I don't want to get too far ahead of of our dates here okay and uh right um so then just for confirmation mad chair we do have December 4th available to continue this application we have an agreement to address those two issues uh Visa their experts and our professionals that have been red by our board and with chair's permission I could announce but we're carrying this please to we're carrying this matter to December 4 2024 at 7:30 p.m. the venue is here again recognizing that is beyond the initial 95 day time frame so we do have an extension of time to act from the applicant until December 5th uh and if the applicant can provide that in writing email is fine that would be appreciated yes and that is without further notice so this is the notice for everyone to set rep thank you move to second you said that way too