##VIDEO ID:bbUlVDBQwxk## EX e I'm going to call this meeting to order I the board attorney Steven Warner uh this is the regular meeting of the township of mbour planning for January 8th 2025 to order at 7:30 p.m. I will read the open meeting notice in accordance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 please be advised that a notice of this meeting was made by posting on the bulletin board town hall and mailing to the officially designated newspapers a list of the meeting dates annually indicating that this meeting will take place at Town Hall at 7:30 p.m. on Wednesday January 82 25 not on the agenda but I would ask everyone who can please rise forer it's now my privilege to administer the oath of office to our returning and newly appointed board members uh we have uh board member Michael Zion uh board uh board member Forge Master Petro board member Cory biller uh class two board member Allison Canfield alternate one Jonathan Baxter alternate two Sergey COV uh class one council member Michael con and mayor's designate Frank uh mayor or mayor's designate my apology Frank Sak uh I'm sorry I had I got that mistak class one mayor designate Michael con and class three uh count uh Committee Member Craig Sani my apologies uh if all of you will stand and raise your right hand please and repeat after me I state your name I do solemnly swear or affirm swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States of the United States and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and theti of the New Jersy and that I will bear I true faith and allegiance to Saint true faith and and to the governments established in the United States to in the United States and in this States and in this under the authority of the people under the authority of people and I do further solemnly swear orm that I will Faithfully imp partially and justly andly perform all of the duties per all of the duties of planning board member according to the best of my ability so congratulations welcome and welcome back our next order of business is for me to call for the roll call please Master Michael Zion here Alison Canfield here Serj Frank sakami here Michael Cohen here deah Nevis here Jonathan Baxter here Sur sit here Cory biller here gas on Halper here thank you uh we are going to begin with our reorganization and our first order of business is the election of chair for the planning board for the year 2025 do I have a nomination SL motion uh I'd like to make a nomination this time i' like to nominate Gaston for chair is there a second multiple seconds any other nominations hearing none we'll close nominations and if we can have a roll call vote uh for our presumptive chair Master Petra yeah Michael Zion yes Alison Canfield yes Ser Frank sakami yes Michael Cohen yes de NIS yes Cory biller yes guon Halpert yes thank you uh it's my pleasure uh to move the gavl over to our new chair uh and uh ask uh if our chair would like to or I can whichever our chair pref prefers so we can ask for nomination uh for vice chair so as the running board joke goes when you don't show up to meetings you get nominated for everything I would like to nominate sereni VJ as Vice chair and let me make a legal ruling uh In Absentia uh uh someone can be elected an officer and it's my understanding that the confirmation of the acceptance should uh uh swy be uh elected as Vice chair uh has been confirmed he will accept the position so do we have a second a second we have a second do we have any other nominations and I hear none so that is I'll assume no one else does uh we will close uh and uh and uh ask for a roll call vote for vice chair Master P yes Michael Z yes alustin Canfield yes Frank sakandi yes Michael Cohen yes Debra Nevis yes Cory biller yes J Haler yes so do we technically need one more vote no no we have a I'm sorry for can he because sereni he's not here to vote for him himself yeah no he he he carried the day by more than a majority uh so his was well reg oh I'm sorry what you're asking is do we go to an alternate to take the place of a regular member you are correct yes for everyone's edification uh alternate members are alternate members but when there is not a regular member uh then sequentially from alternate one Beyond uh they actually sit as regular members so yes we should go to uh we should get to nine yes okay uh so Jonathan backer yes okay it remains unanimous thank you um our next uh is uh the appointment of planning board attorney uh and uh given that I may have an interest in the outcome of this vote I'll ask uh the chair to ask for a nomination and a second does anybody have a nomination for planning board attorney yeah I'll nominate Steve Warner for planning Bo do we have a second I second it roll call please for master yes Michael Zion yes Alon Canfield yes uh Frank Sandi yes Michael Cohen yes Deborah Nas yes Cory biller yes gon Halper yes Jonathan bter yes thank you very much I appreciate your continued a a confidence in in the I service so thank it's a privilege to continue to serve um and with that vote uh that would also adopt the resolution uh of appointment that you received so we can move to appointment of planning board attorney excuse me I did that already planning board planner that's right off want a second contract just just in case no no no planning board planner the a lot of planners in there in that planning in that word in that ter appointment of planning board plan is there a nomination is there a second and I'm gonna assume and hear no further nominations so roll call vote please for Master P yes Z yesi yes uh Frank Zaki yes Michael Cohen yes Deborah Nas yes Cory biller yes G hper yes Jonathan Baxter yes and uh next is appointment of planning board secretary and I believe we have a presumptive new planning board secretary but I don't want to get ahead of my skis as they say so uh nomination for planning board secretary I'd like to nominate but I'm not going to pronounce her last name so if you can do that is there a second okay any others I hear none so we're closing nominations and a roll call vote please for Master P yes Michael Zion yes Alon Canfield yes Frank sakami yes Michael Cohen yes Debra Nas yes Cory biller yes gueston Halper yes Jonathan Baxter yes and our last item of business for reorganization portion of the meeting is a resolution of the planning board public hearing dates and times uh for the year 2025 2026 as with the others who have a resolution uh before you with uh the meeting dates uh and uh if someone wishes to make a hopefully a nominate a excuse me a motion and a second uh to adopt the resolution we will have our annual notice to be published uh to take us the balance of the year and into our reorganization meeting in 2026 I would like to adopt the proposed medium dates so we have a motion do we have a second second we have a second a roll call vote please fore Master Petro yes Michael Zion yes Alon Canfield yes Frank sakami yes Michael Cohen yes Ze NIS yes Cory biller yes guon hper yes Jonathan baxer yes yes and that concludes the reorganization portion of our meeting we are properly reorganized and we constituted as a planning board so we can proceed to our regular meeting portion of our meeting uh and we have one item of business uh on that is an application uh application number 24-3 high high Center for living judism 165 old Short Hills Road site plan approval conditional use approval I see Council for the applicant is here and we can pick up there and again I'm going to emphasize I am not holding on to the G so to you Mr chair good evening uh again for the record Michael LaVine with Fox Ro TR here this evening on behalf of the applicant uh we were last here before the board on um December 18th and we finished off the evening with direct testimony from our project architect he went through the um elevations and floor plans that were submitted as part of our application he also had a supplemental exhibit that was marked as applicants A7 where we provided uh some additional uh views and some additional information um we'll have to double check um I believe that the board had an opportunity to ask questions but if not I you know to the extent that you did not have there other questions that we ran out of time for didn't get answered I know that his direct testimony was concluded so I will just ask the board if there are any followup questions I do know for certain that we did not begin at all with questions from the public my notes the mitt indicate as such and certainly want to make sure everybody has a full opportunity ask questions uh starting with our board members and board professionals who may still have some um Mr War if you could just um Dan it's probably a good idea to get your um soft copy of your exhibit up and just kind of whatever to the extent you need to do some preparations to be ready to answer questions you can probably get started that while he's doing that while he's doing that and before I forget uh the um we do have uh Mr Fishinger colleague the traffic engineer appointed by our board as a neutral traffic engineer for purposes of this application is here uh in the uh off chance that he might be saying something this evening if you'll stand and raise your right hand do you swear to God or affirm that the testimony that you may give tonight is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you so now you are sworn in so we uh so I can't forget that because I did it um the uh and also and I apologize but I uh just want to make sure uh Natalia that uh I know there were a couple of sets of minutes that were circulated um those can just be tabled for the next exactly I just want to make make it clear that we're going to table those I think they might have been two from December uh way back in 20124 uh we'll table those and hopefully we can adopt those next time they'll be on our agenda okay great do you need to set that down somewhere I need to see have okay pardon me Mr War yeah I understand bear with me because I gave the gab away but I keep talking it's but to our to our chair if our chair wishes to recognize Council for the objector if she has something to say uh uh that's the chair's Pro sure still recognize um good evening M um chair um and members of the board my name is Nicole Dory I'm with the law firm of Connell Poley I'm here on behalf of the objector of sustainable development for Milburn Township um I sent a letter to Mr Warner um before the meeting actually two letters to Mr Warner with a copy to the board clerk um and I just wanted to acknowledge those letters that I sent in I asked for certain documents to be submitted as part of the record of the application um so I just wanted to identify myself and note the letter IID submitted right there's a there was a January 6 uh with respect to uh I guess in part at least to some uh uh rulings by the related to rulings by the board at the last hearing we can uh at the appropriate time uh readdress those if it's appropriate to readdress them uh and some other issues uh but uh uh were there at the second letter um I don't know that there was a second letter there was a second doc uh exhibit I think that I got a second I got two emails but I got one letter uh so I don't know what he yes there was a second letter that had exhibits with had related to the first yes I understand yeah so there was a second email uh that had an exhibit That was supposed to be part of the uh submission in the relative to the letter the January 6 letter yes I had submitted one letter to the board attorney and also separately submitted documents that I was ask to be admitted and there two documents yeah free to make continue to make arguments you so desired of course everyone applicat Council have an opportunity to respond to arguments Etc um we can do that right now however where we're going to pick up pick up uh is uh my recommendation to the chair on the board is to pick up where we left off the board may or may not be done asking questions of the architect uh there'll be questions from the public no doubt and yourself perhaps of the architect uh and then uh we can uh there's a need to we could address uh or readdress rulings that were made by the board previously uh and but as far as any jurisdictional argument uh the notice that was originally provided was found to be sufficient for jurisdictional purposes uh that hasn't changed in my legal opinion uh if you have a different opinion that that can be argued as well but I'm going to suggest that we finish with the architect and save that for later this evening I suspect you're saying that's acceptable to me okay thank you acceptable to you applicant Council Mr line yes Mr Warren just as as a housekeeping matter before we go too far I know I noticed there's some new uh faces on the board um have these folks yeah done well have um read the transcripts or listen to the tapes and CER provided the certification that's that's a very good point I was neglectful Mr chairman if I may address that the uh well first of all it's my understanding uh that not uh none of our members including our new members are within 200 feet and received any notices or even if they didn't receive any notices are not within 200 feet of 165 old T Hills Road the perimeter uh so or else they would be conflicted uh and speak now we're forever hold your peace but assuming uh my understanding is correct as my understand that all the board members are qualified in the to the extent that they're not conflicted from hearing the matter uh it's also my understanding that some if not all of the board members have listened Andor watched some if not all uh of of the proceedings um however for purposes of continuing the evening uh with the reasonable expectation that we're not going to complete this application this evening would that be a reasonable expectation Mr line it is okay thank you uh they can in my legal opinion uh hear the application I continue to hear it but they must qualify themselves prior to any deliberation vote which is not going to occur as we all understand it this evening uh uh would you agree with that Mr line on behalf of the applicant I do Mr and Miss D Dory or Dory my apologize would you agree with that as well yes okay thank you so we have a unanimity among three different attorneys I don't know if that's ever happened before in the history of the world but we got it tonight it's on the record so back to you Mr chair before we continue I didn't want want to let a couple things slip through the cracks at the beginning of our last session um there was discussion about a traffic and circulation design condition stipulation something that was going to be written for the planning board has any progress been made on that or available um so two things Mr chairman there's been continuing dialogue between our uh our Consultants as to and really the the nub of the issue is how best to evaluate potential traffic impacts of the uh preschool facility that's intended be operated on site we had uh the applicant had initially taken an approach that was focusing on overall enrollment and there were subsequent discussions as between the experts and the arrive at the conclusion that it's a more conventional and widely accepted approach and more consistent with the Institute of Transportation Engineers approach to focus more on the square footage that will be devoted to that use uh and also uh to take a closer look at anticipated uh arrival and departure times in the extent to which those would be staggered and whatnot so with this being a a new program that required some uh planning on the part of the applicant so but the short answer is that dialogue is still continuing uh we have our traffic expert who's prepared to kind of bring the board up to speed on where those discussions stand um and with the extent to which what we've already provided is sufficient in the opinion of the board's uh Consultants so we're close to finalizing that uh kind of piece of the puzzle and once we do I've stated on the record and agree that to the extent that the board fears that there should be a condition imposed in connection with that that we should circulate a draft of what that language would be and and discuss it and and agree upon it before you know there's any sort of vote so that's still the plan and that's kind of the latest and greatest as to where we are on that issue if I may ask for clarification Mr chairman on on that one issue before we go to the next one am I correct in my understanding that it's your intention once we complete the uh questioning of the uh architect uh that your next witness is the traffic engineer with to update on this issue okay that's correct okay so we know where we're headed okay I think that's good that was a my second one as well make sure that the next our next person that testy would be the traffic engineer all right back to the we also haven't gotten an updated plan right the the site plan the detailed site plan correct and the professional reports well would our professionals which would follow the submission of the detail right so in terms of uh again where we stand on that the latest and greatest um we are in the process of revising the plans unfortunately and believe me when I tell you nobody would be more eager than the applicant to be able to have those submitted and to continue to press forward um our Engineers are not able to finish all of those revisions and having them submitted in advance in order for your uh Professionals in order to review them and produce their report S one of the main reasons for that setting aside just kind of the general holiday season was that the board's Consulting engineer had recommended that in light of the fact that the location of storm water basins is changing we had um soil test pits and and soil logs that had been uh performed and prepared relative to the original locations and while she understands what the plan is she recommended that we do additional soil testing and soil test pits in the proposed locations of the new ground basins which we agree is a reasonable request and we've proceeded with that but that involved you know trying to schedule an excavator and get that done so in order to do this properly and in in Al in conformance with what your engineer has suggested we're continuing to work on that once those plans are submitted we will submit them um sufficiently in advance the minimum of 10 days in order for the board and the members of the public to see them and the board's Consultants to prepare supplemental reports with respect to them if I make for clarification purposes on that would I be correct in the assumption that perhaps the holiday a new year time of year and the cold weather didn't help expedite the soil pit certainly did not excavation so and and then if I may Mr chairman it brings us to another issue which is uh arguably a sort of down Place hanging over ahead uh we've been proceeding uh at a pace of extensions of time to act meeting by meeting by meeting um if I recall correctly and I often do uh the extension of time to act currently is till tomorrow uh so given that that sort of dles is there would uh it be fair to request of you and better yet Fair of you to give us Grant as applicat Council if you have the applicate an extension of time to act at least through uh uh the next scheduled meeting or if not Beyond so in speaking with the uh with the engineers um they do not believe if the board were having a hearing on the 29th that would have worked our civil engineers do not believe that they will have the plans ready and submitted sufficiently in in advance in order to be able to proceed further on this application at your next scheduled meeting which is the 22nd so just for confirmation it is the 22nd correct okay thank you so with that being the case and I didn't necessarily I was kind of anticipating having more detailed scheduling conversations at the end of the evening but uh at the very least with that being the case we would like to uh we definitely and our my civil engineers have confirmed that they'll definitely have the revised plans done and submitted sufficiently in advance so that we would be in a position to proceed before you on at the next meeting which is February 5th they did also advise that the the plans would be done in sufficient in a sufficient amount of time to be in a position to uh proceed on February 29th if the board were to see fit to GP but that would require a special year I'm sorry I think you mean January I do mean January 29th correct and I don't know how many meetings the board can handle in one month but so but uh I think currently we have a meeting January 21 if that's not going to do it we have a meeting 22 I'm sorry 22 uh uh we have a meeting February 5th it's not my decision but I doing the math right feu roughly a week after two weeks uh the the um so uh but if you squeeze what meeting on the 29th that's three meetings in well less than three weeks so but it's uh not my decision it's up to the board if that's a request otherwise I take it we're going to get an extension of time to act till February 6 at a minim correct correct and and it might be the type of thing frankly that even couldn't be determined by now I mean this evening but given availabilities and what happens yeah there be the 48 hour Sunshine act notice that would be required I mean to the extent that people to be oh no I'm sorry we yeah we would have a meeting on the 21st I keep saying stuck my the the Jan I have something on January 21st I gotta figure out what it is uh January 22nd so I guess technically could can wait the determination could be made but unless the board wants to make a determination one way or the other now I think in the light of the fact that we just got the final the proposed meetings we should at least wait till the next meeting can Che their schedules coordinate they need to sh stuff around right I think it perhaps the Assumption for the time being is February 5th will be the next meeting after January 20 second so uh that said that my understanding is we have an extension of time to act through at least February 6 I'm going to be B and ask if we have one Beyond February 6 cons with past procedures as of just through February okay then so we have the sword is removed at least until February 6 or yeah well takes us through February 6 so I appreciate that Mr Warner I think February 5th no February 5th but the extension is to February 6 so we don't have to worry about uh February 5th or perhaps going past midnight although I'm sure that won't happen okay sure ready for board questions for the architect does anybody from the board have questions the AR noting that there were some before but they appear to be more yeah um could you talk a little more about the mikah I'm not sure if everybody here knows what the mikah is uh I would love actually the rabbi to talk more about that um I I understand the space that's required for it but the actual like uh to tell you more details about okay that the reason I'm asking is because I'm I'm noticing that the mikah is on the same floor as the preschool yes and so I'm wondering um given that it it does prise a body of water um what sort of safety uh measures are being taken with children running around that I could talk about so we have um a door uh so it separates the uses um try to zoom in on so this is the lower level plan and so just for the record you're referring to an exhibit or the actual architectural plans were both is this part of A7 yes part of a thank you A7 sheet A4 um it depicts the lower level of of of building and the pink area if you can see the pigness is the early childhood development uh Center and so what happens is there's a the ability to enter at at this point lower level which is the has some parking and then we have um the staircase and the elevator so this area would be secured by this door um so it would be emergency exit only um and so the Mika is beyond that space so the intention is that the one program the pink part is separated by that function and is that going to be a lock door yeah and is there going to be an attendant with the m there'll be I think the mikah has an attendant and I think the childhood development has their care so uh you won't be able to freely walk around this part of it and then back here's storage mechanical as well so that was the idea to control the different functions that would happen um I do have some questions uh it's Mr du right yes and you stood in front of the historic preservation commission so we do kind of know each other um my question to you is um did you see the HPC report on this property and surrounding properties no you do not um you briefly spoke about the architectural style uh of this building is there any architectural style that inspired this design in this community uh like using a reference from architecture or what it what what is the architectural style do you have a specific architectural style yeah well we want it to be rooted more in the classical architecture um more historical references uh simple forms and masses um yeah that was our inspiration um also were you aware that the average black coverage in this community including impervious coverage is about 15.8% and this building with impervious coverage takes up 35% of this lot do you feel this development is appropriate size and scale for this neighborhood uh to answer your question I feel like it's appropriate uh well because that was the number that we were get to design too so the maximum lot coverage for this lot is 35% so to solve our parking requirements in the building that was one of our major design considerations is to make sure that we don't need any variances for lot coverage so um I know often residential cases ask for lck coverage so I'm happy to say we don't need any uh areas for lck coverage so I guess it is appropriate so again that you are familiar um so the size and scale of this neighborhood was that even taken into consideration you know as the whole community and as it being a residential Community yes okay um a couple other questions I think it's pretty much on the same issue is um you know the master plan references that preserving the Integrity of the residential neighborhood um did you consult the professional planner at all or did you consider safeguarding Community Values property values when you designed this absolutely absolutely um one of the first things we looked at is obviously uh well we need a 3 acre lot for the condition of use so we're over 3 acres we're 3.32 acres and so we had uh to maintain the front yard setbacks at 100 feet we actually had 40 feet to go to the sides um so we felt like well I I certainly as a planning the structure felt like it was appropriate to move the building forward keep the parking lot in the back so I maintain one of the magical things about this property is the very densely wooded perimeter so we're maintaining that so I think I did consider the streetcape and the neighborhoods uh when planning the building okay um due to the size and scale and impact of this residential Community as you've heard the residents uh State their concerns was it ever considered to do an Outreach um for support of this project from your neighbors um no I think the the majority of uh my time and my effort was to make sure that it conformed to every zoning requirement that was available to us in terms of the R3 and any zoning requirements for the um conditional use so I felt like uh uh there was no need to kind of get the input because we weren't asking for any permission to violate or to do to to be too tall too big so uh I felt comfortable designing it uh in the best possible spot and and in the location so know I didn't reach out to the neighbors okay and you didn't recommend that uh for the support of the community to support this project no I didn't think that was necessary okay um and then last time you know hearing the many questions about risk mitigation did you incorporate or in this plan any potential itial risk management pieces I know that that was addressed or was mentioned Fire Safety Management or eress or I'm not sure um yeah the range of safety as far as you know um for how cars you know are close to the building etc etc yes uh risk management um risk management was not so much an architectural criteria that I assessed uh when designing it but proper flow proper function uh proper egress um it's what I looked at okay thank you anyone else have any questions I do have a couple um the mechanical equipment located on top of the building it said they're going to have screens around them will they will those screens have any type of dampening characteristic to them yes well visual for sure and then sound you know they have a LED design so it helps with the noise control noise control okay do you know will the equipment be operating at all hours of the day and night or really just it's uh it's going to be interesting because we're going to have multiple zones so I think as needed uh it's not like one unit that's going to power the whole building so uh each each function will probably have its own zone so I don't imagine be running at night that's for sure um I think you just just to maintain the temperature but nothing excessive no and then second question is on any type of electrical equipment like Transformers or anything that are going to be located on the site will there be any um I don't think there'll be any generators is that trans like a Transformer so is it just going to be regular regular lines utility lines from from the street or like sometimes apartment complexes and stuff you have to have a Transformer I don't know the answer to that question okay are you are you planning on shielding any electrical equipment Outdoors um there's no uh plan for any uh unit that has to be placed on the site for the power um anything we handled in mechanical room um but we haven't consulted with any any the engineers yet yeah I guess hot box thank you yeah um will there be a hyox onite uh architecturally I couldn't respond to that I I think I have to consult with the electro engineer to okay give you those answers okay that have been answer before exactly Mr chair it brought up another question the height of of the units on top of the building is that meeting the height restrictions uh yes so but apparently uh the height the building height 3 2 fet and then you're allowed to exceed that with mechanical units and or other devices so um that's separate from the building height so our building Height's at 32 and the mechanical is about 5T um that's not calculated night so a question so you know this is basically a commercial building for all intensive purposes I imagine the mechanical equipment would have to be larger size and probably produce more noise do you have any sense of um what the increase in noise would be versus you know standard residence I do not know the answer to that question uh I do know that we're planning on so we don't have a very large unit up there we're going to and and functionally too if we Zone it so uh the second floor would have two zones the first floor we probably have three and the downstairs we probably have two so we'll have multiple uh units so that won't be one large unit so that will help with the probably the deciel rating okay um and do you have any sense of you know whether the Mechanicals are actually going to be visible from the street or you know if someone's across the street in their home and they look out their window I do the mechan because obviously that would be very unattractive to see those units so I I made sure that uh um we studied I I think I can show you the 3D renderings so we included the the mechanical unit on our 3D renderings to confirm that it will not be visible from street level and I can show you that really quickly this is another part of A7 it's yes part of A7 so two dimensionally yeah of course you're going to see it because it's flat drawing um but three-dimensionally um so these images that we did have that um mechanical units in the screening on there and there was no vantage point that we could find that you would see them so I felt really good about that if I make just for clarification you're saying that's ground level and to scale and went around yes yes I try to take 360 so to speak 360 so to speak because I don't want to see them either and uh they're attractive so yes you won't not see them um was there anything special you did design wise with regards to the kitchen I it's by understanding that there may be some level of cooking or events involving food there um did you have to do anything special is it like a commercial great kitchen we'll have all our exhaust will be located on the rooftop um like mushroom style low level uh like restaurant uh exhaust right that uh probably the only thing that will need that will beit uh penetrate the building so we'll have it come through the roof do you have any sense of were there any other special considerations you made terms of design and the scale of kitchen I guess trying to get a sense of what the size is it is it going to be like a commercial restaurant kitchen or is it be um I guess a very small uh small uh in my opinion uh size kitchen uh it's it's going to be a kosher kitchen so there had to be we haven't gotten quite to that specific uh yet but um I think a mod siiz kitchen for for the size of building for sure uh in terms of uh other planning that went into that I mean it's a um you won't be visible and you certainly the smells I think that was something that would be very important to control so uh you no I don't think you would notice if something was going on and happening for sure so no specific consideration made to prevention or just to make sure through the rooftop the exhaust right just it'll just vent out yeah I may ask clarification based on se's questioning on the noise issue uh the the um applicants Council I'm sure would agree that at a minimum compliance with nj7 call 29 of the D regulations governing uh noise must be complied with that's correct compliance with the law is a condition of all approvals in the event there is an approval um but even if we didn't have it as a condition it's still an obligation of all of us as Citizens but uh the the um would the applicant uh stipulate in the event the board wanted such a stipulation in the event Was An approved to a post construction uh uh uh noise or acoustical evaluation uh at the applicant's cost to confirm compliance with njac C7 call 29 if I recall correctly 50 DBA at the nighttime 6 excuse me yeah at 65 during the day yeah I I'm glad you mention I wanted just to confirm what we're talking about the same section which is uh I think as it's night time I think starts at 10 p.m under those RS it's 10 I'm going 50v at night 65b during the day correct but in any event the the the the it's the governing regulations set forth by the DP on the state level right um yeah I'll I'll check with my client to confirm but I understand the request and certainly we're not seeking to DV8 from the applicable state level standards with regard to noise so with regard to your specific question about the post construction test all I'll ask my client and make a representation on the record as to their stance on uh appreciate consideration of what might be recognized to be a reasonable request if the board so desired that's why I had on that thank can I follow with that one too and I'm not sure really miss Callahan can correct me if I'm wrong but if if the local standards are more stringent than the state level then please comply with those as well to the extent they're not pre Ed and they are are more stringent yes yes thank you Mr well yeah I like to have a few questions so um about sustainable things for the building yes what kind of what color is the roof the color be white white yes what what other stuffff we have here for make this yes uh well to make it uh obviously uh insulation hybrid mechanical uh system Windows of course all our appliances uh energy star rated so what kind of mechanical you see well it's going to be a forest hot air system most likely um and uh so I I don't know if uh I mean certainly we would like to investigate uh solar and some other options but right now in in this early uh the planning of the building um it's more generic basic sustainability uh issues that are addressed right the energy efficient uh heating air conditioning installation the uh standard practices um for example is since we have 75% of inw blood coverage can we reuse that with prw surface I don't think the town gives us a credit for I'm not talking about credit I'm talking about the benefit for the town uh well I think um I don't know the answer to that I mean that might be more of an engineering question for for the lock cage and the surface material okay um okay actually that brought up a question so you mentioned there may be some solar uh in the future um would that be located on the roof or would it be located on the I would imagine the roof I don't think we would take up uh you start putting down like a solar field in the in the Lao but that uh is not up to be at the moment right do do you have any idea of what you know I imagine the angles somewhat with that yeah we haven't looked into you know maybe I um pres spoke but we haven't looked into that but certainly uh be something that we would like to investigate um but we don't have any information I I wouldn't be able to intelligently answer you about the size of the height or what kind of power we get from it but that would be um something to look at for sure Mr I I do have another question um you spoke briefly about materials you had it was very pretty can you just materials of this building from Yes um my vision is that it's Earth Tones warm colors a rough uh rough Limestone base or plin base to the building that that the architecture will sit on top of of so for me that's a very important aesthetic element um and then we want to investigate Limestone detailing so the cornices and window trims to be made of limestone and uh then the some kind of masonry product for some of the facades materials so again probably more of the warm tone colors there are there any other questions from the board are there any questions from the board professionals I just wanted to follow on Miss Canfield's question regarding the lot coverage you had indicated um basing your comments that the lot coverage has not complies I just wanted to confirm if that based on the revised plan that we have be forthcoming or is that on the if it doesn't comply we in travel right because lead par so that's why I just wanted to confirm based on your based on my knowledge based on the current plans based on the current plans thank you if I may all of which will be confirmed upon receipt and and Analysis by the board profession yeah thank you like to open it up to the public for questions and and before we begin Mr Rory if I understand correctly the last uh hearing you made a representation that your client is an LLC with one member and that your client was not present and was not going to ask questions uh so as to comport with Municipal and Juice law uh him him or herself but only through you correct yes correct and are you able uh as an officer of the Court M because I don't have to correct Council for the applicant uh the the uh because as an officer of the Court as an attorney a license to practice in the state of New Jersey can you make that same representation this evening so that you can ask questions on behalf of your client without divulging the entity of the so member of the LLC yes thank you uh no objection applicants Council M Dory asking questions okay please proceed okay thank you these are questions of the uh so the architect needs to be available to ask answer the questions okay thank you U Mr um some of the board members already asked some of the questions I was interested in so I'll try to go through and not Reas but um I understand that you prepared a a zoning analysis for the property it was in one of the slides that you had um so that is that exhibit A2 I think that was one of the exhibits you had yes okay sorry before we do is that exhibit A7 sheet 2 or something yes okay just for clarification A7 sheet A2 yes um and is that a chart that you prepared yes um and uh you also prepared the architectural plans I think they're three pages right August 12th 2024 and those haven't been revised the plans have not been revised okay will you be submitting revised plans after this meeting with those plans change the ones that architectural plans uh not as no there has been any changes okay um and did you also prepare the landscape and lighting design for the project no are those all on the Civil plans yes okay um and at the last meeting uh there was a request by one of the board members prepare rendering or renderings by you um a viewpoints from the adjoining residences and you said that those would be prepared prepared those rendering working on them okay would get uh a little bit more accurate once we get the SE and then with the tree Replacements uh so I have some uh that I brought this evening but I would I could show them but they're not going to I could couldn't say like I I went plant by plant to reenact it but what I would say is that uh this site will be very well treed and uh landscaped so the focus would not be the architecture fortunately unfortunately but the focus would be on the really protecting it with the trees from the street so once I get the uh tree replacement plan I'll be able to better depict the site okay and with those renderings for majoring depicting views Ma joining residences would those be provided 10 days before the next meeting um as soon as I get this the revised site plan then I would be happy to uh work on it I I don't know when I would get that but um if if that's the requirement then we'll have to make it if I may ask a clarifying question of applicants Council are we to assume then that uh the architect will be back again with these additional exhibits to testify to them he's going to submit the uh exhibits they're going to be visual depictions of what the property looks like if so he will be available I can't imagine that that's going to require extensive testimony I mean it's perfect example of a picture is worth a thousand words but yes they'll have to be available I've been accused of a couple a thousand myself okay I appreciate that confirmation yeah uh obviously less architectural more Landscaping related but I think it's U I would like to testify again that uh this project well screen from the street so that's why I think as part of the architectural it it becomes important because it's visual but um yeah um okay and in your review did you identify any variances connection with the application um how about any design waivers no design waivers um uh what about the the deficiency in trees did you consider that as a design waiver no because they have an ordinance that uh tree replacement that will will follow so no design wer needed for that um I just wanted to ask some about about some of the conditional use standards for house of worship um Mr chairman if I may we have a planner who's going to be providing planning testimony with regard to the compliance with the conditional use standards uh and that's really not within the baileywick of the architect who did the floor plan and elevation design the the um story if you're insistent on asking him my advice the board would be if he can answer he can answer if he can we might be awaiting the planner okay I wasn't aware that there would be additional planning testimon oh okay I'm sorry I believe at the initial at least the first meeting I recall applicant listed Witnesses inclusive of a professional plan that's correct um one of your uh pages on exhibit A7 you showed um so the minimum buffer to uh joining residential use it was supposed to be a minimum of 25 ft and you said that the plans have a minimum of about 31 31.8 yeah the engineer had it at 31.4 feet in the previous C okay and is that buffer depicted on your plans or only on the engineering plans engineering um and do you know how that buffer was calculated uh you'd have to ask him how I would calculate it but uh I don't know how he calculate but I would imagine you take the distance don't if you didn't I didn't prepare it so okay um and are you aware of the township ordinances concerning buffers um DRZ 69.3 are you aware of that section of the township ordinances um there's a the section of the township ordinances governs uh buffers between non-residential and residential uses including in the R3 Zone did you you're asking a question cor yes okay please proceed did you review with with the chair's permission yeah I would say that would be a question for the engineer stop was my responsibility when was the building okay so you didn't review section 69.3 uh regarding buffers to ensure compliance with that section of the ordinance no no that's the okay um and are you aware that that section requires a a six High I'm sorry I suspect I think an objection is forthcoming candidly if you didn't review it it was somebody else's job to review it okay asking him if he's aware of exactly what it says has probably been as answered already all right fair enough so objections I think been sustained by the board uh there was some discussion of the rooftop mechanical equipment when you prepare your renderings from uh joining residences will that show uh views of the Rooftop top of mechanical equipment uh that's a good question I don't I don't know if if the what the rending will show yet but um again it would be from um I don't know how I would get a photograph from that but um it will show as much as I can the the trees that I get and the building and uh certainly based on the renderings I do have you can't see it so I can't imagine what you start putting layers of trees in front of it it's even less so okay but the the renderings that you did prepare those show uh views from uh ground level correct yes okay so then in your professional opinion um the adjoining residences on like second floors or third floors of the adjoining residences do you think they would be able to see the the rooftop mechanical I testify to know because of the canopies of the trees but I don't know the answer to that can I just ask a followup question can you know the height of the screening Mr Dory no objection to a clar I take it as a CL a followup clarifying question yeah in further in of the line of questioning you're pursuing okay um then do you know the height of the uh screening that will surround the rooftop Mechanicals relative to the Mechanicals themselves yes could you describe that uh yes so the screening will go uh 5et and the units will be four feet so um I'm so in your professional opinion would that help screen the view of the mechanical equipment at ground level and also you know an elevated level off site yes and what would that screening consist of um it' be a metal uh probably an aluminum uh screen um in the color that will match the architecture of the building um and you mentioned that there might be multiple units on the rooftop uh could you describe that uh not in great detail now because we haven't had the engineer we're going to the mechanical engineer who's going to design the system uh but I will tell you there'll be multiple units and they'll be as small as they can okay you you testified earlier that the because there will be multiple units that that would help with the deciel levels to adjoining residences could you explain that how is it that having multiple smaller units would help rather than one larger unit um well one unit produces a lot less uh Power and energy than one large one that would have to uh take care of all of them so um I certainly know that being so far away from the residents is that they won't they won't hear it but you don't know where the location of those units will be at this time on the roof but you don't know where they will be on the roofs is that what you're saying I I have a indication indicated on the plans where they would go pull that up yes that's a and maybe if you can give us the sheet or page okay refence so um this is the building this the rooftop and so they're located uh forward uh towards the parking lot and it's 178 feet away to the entrance so maybe another 20t from here so certainly it's 200 ft away um you will not hear these units if you're in this house here so the units will be kept in that same general area your plans yes um and you measured you mentioned the trees but what other measures were taken to buffer reviews from adjoining residences and streets in your AR I'm sorry did did we get a sheet number on that oh sorry A7 sheet or page three three thank you uh no that was uh besides the the Topography of the land um no no other measures for that um what about uh trying to buffer views of the parking or loading areas from a joining residences were any considerations taken in your architectural design of the building uh the building no how about the the layout of the site that would be for the engineer question okay so you didn't have any uh you didn't have any opinions orend I don't think there is a a loading area you said a loading area right is there any loading area associated with the site no not a designated voting area no um do you know how uh how deliveries will be made to the site again that would be more for the site engineer the civil engineer how the traffic move through so you didn't take any in your design you didn't take any consideration into buffering any delivery areas or parking areas from joining residences no um uh what about buffering views or noise from the the play area or the playground could you take any considerations in your arital design doing that gu could you repeat the question did you uh take any considerations in your architectural design and locating the play area or buffering noise or use from the play area no yeah just to clarify did you design and pick the location of the play area no okay how was that selected was that selected by the engineer engineer do you know what the maximum occupancy of the building is uh not yet no that'll be a function obviously of the uh the codes the use the use and then the the square footage and when will the maximum occupancy for the building be determined uh when the plans are finalized um because it depends on the size of the bathrooms and things like that so that wasn't a zoning criteria that we looked at yet um the one of board members asked questions about risk management have you done any security evaluation in connection with your architectural design as an architect no no we haven't taken any guidelines byom security or no I'm sorry do we have an extra mic as we did previously only because at times one or both individuals are not speaking into a mic thank you um you mentioned that the preschool use would be segregated from the other operations of the building on the ground floor is that right yes and um did you consider um the use of the building as a of the uh the use of the building as a preschool um in terms of access and how that might conflict with other on-site traffic no right actually I think the mic may not be on there should be a button on the bottom okay does that work now thanks does that work now I don't think so okay maybe I'll just try to speak up close share the mic turn it um I just have a few more questions um do you know if there'll be any buses parked on the property or used for drop off or pickup I couldn't answer that architecturally what would know uh do you know if there'll be an outside area or was there an outside area that was considered that you you designed any type of outside area to have designed any outside area uh to hold events outside on the property anything like that was that ever discussed I design that um do you know how garbage will be uh controlled the property or clearly outside just go for the testimony that he offered it's actually extensive testimony that's been provided prior I think that may have been addressed for the chair of the board but I think that's was addressed previously by another witness okay well Reserve that thank you okay I have no other questions thanks thank you anybody else in the public have questions wonder if I can ask a question on name and address first always that's I'm sorry Charles Bambara 37 Keats Road in Short Hills and then any questions of course are questions based on his direct testimony okay as the architect but before I begin my questioning I just want to be clear on maybe from from applicants Council you had a question about something that clarification from earlier tonight new revised plans that will be submitted will have engineering content the you got ask sir one at a time gotta speak one at a time you need to speak in the mic he takes down every word and he's good he can probably get two or three at a time but we really one at a time so ask your question please my question perhaps is of of applican council the new plans that will be submitted will have inine Conta is there a plan to have the engineer return Yes to field from question I don't want to ask engineer question I think we already confirmed that but please reconfirm that Mr yes that's certainly true but uh you know to be clear this we gave extensive testimony with regard to the existing plans most aspects of which from an engineering standpoint remain unchanged there will be a limited Universe of revisions that will be made to the plans that our engineer will will highlight and testify to and my expectation is that any follow-up questions will be limited to those changes and it will not be an invitation to throw the entire application up to a second bite at the Apple for everything under the sun having to do with engineering no I understand and that wasn't my intent Revis drainage plan I might have some questions and if I understand correctly though as was testified by the architect the architectural plans are not envisioned to change just the engineering plans so I believe the architectural questions would be for this gentleman I'll reserve the engineering questions and and thank you I don't want to waste time and uh regarding architectural um uh the uh I guess uh uh Committee Member sagami alluded to this a little bit but um it is is it fair to say that the property being uh zoned or uh the the use being a commercial use does that require that the kitchen be also a commercial kitchen that I do not know the answer to that are we sure we don't have any more mics now that work okay we have if I correctly we previously had multile batteries that can be put into mic can we bring this can I bring this microphone and as long as you you can both share it I want to make sure all members of the public can hear everything we can share thank you um all right so um so my my questions would have pertained to you know a commercial what is required for would not be a residential kitchen forgive me if I speak about food safety to a rabbi who probably takes more precautions for food then and the rest of us but the question I I have is um will there be you mentioned the ventilation system to the to the roof will there be a uh a few scrubber in that system yeah we haven't designed the kitchen but like you said it's a commercial building so it'll fall under the building requirements uh for uh whatever needs to go into the kitchen so I I wouldn't feel comfortable on the drain all that so I won't get into the details of that right okay but I would assume then it'll be in compliance with whatever the requirements okay all right thank you yeah um I think that's really the architectural questions that I have thank you sir um Jeffrey Feld 11 Alexander Lane shills New Jersey I just have a few questions based on the application letter that was submitted in August by the attorney it said that your plans were revised how were they revised from the original plans plans that we have now that were done in August based on the statement in the submission letter said they were revised how did were they revised from the original you understand a question any answer question yes word I might not be answering it correctly but we did get some comments and feedback uh from the town so we made some revisions to the plans based on their comments and clarifications and just so I'm clear if I may Mr chairman you're referring to exhibit A7 had some revisions from a prior architectural dra no I think he's talking about something else no I when you look at the letter was submitted by the attorney in August because the when you look at the date of the original application it has dates of like May second or third there was a meeting in June with various professionals yes when there was a transmittal letter it says revised plans okay so so so what was submitted in August was revised from an earlier ver iteration whether it was submitted or not if I so we can all understand what the question is and what the answer is is that correct that's correct we have work both I think on the same right right Point um your prior testimony was when you were designing the architecture building it wasn't really based on the use or what the demand would be but based on coverage you said you had to design the building so it would be within the 35% coverage is that correct we designed the parking lot coverage for that um to meet that requirement so that was the struggle because we have the parking demand and we have the building and they have to work together uh as as the building it's very kind of undersized for where we could have gone but it was the parking and the lot covers that U right you were involved in the design architecture of the design that was presented to the zoning board and you looked at the size I'm trying to compare the project that we have now the Building compared to the building you you were listed on the zoning board that's you know there was denied no it's there's a federal investigation please no I just wanted to talk about I got to weigh in Legally uh uh to advise my board okay the the the uh to make sure the proceedings per properly um you're referring to a different proceeding for a different application for a different site that happened in the past correct two years ago okay him if he was involved in that is that correct or he was the architect on that yes were you the architector involved in the zoning on Milbourne Avy yes okay right please proceed with relevant questions on related to this application comparing the the structure that we are seeing on this application what is was there the reason it was increased in size was it based on demand of the use or is it based on limited based on the size of the project and coverage what drives the size of the the rooms the size of the congregation the demand how many seats you have in the synagogue I'm sorry you can't talk to the you can't talk to the witness you can talk to your counsel not the witness I'm not talking the witness yeah I want to make sure because that would be improper yeah okay thank you again part of my job they they they they do you heard the question do you understand the question can you answer the question I don't know if I completely understand it uh to a certain level other than this uh proposed building was a result of my client's needs and I made sure that it fit the zoning requirements well I'm just trying to find out you said the word needs needs yes the needs let's say the synagogue how did you know for this new location did the rabbi say that the need had increased X percentage since the prior application two years prior no he just uh we we discussed the program uh that they would like to have and my job was to design a building uh that would conform to all the zoning requirements and conditional uses that would possibly uh exist so I had to manage the information I got and to design a building just are you going to be the construction manager like figuring out the project cost of this project no that was not part of your range to come to an estimate what the cost of constructing this project would be no all right thank you Ted C old Short Hills just one one question I only have is going to the maximum capacity of the building just given the total number of the classrooms that you've designed and the number of classroom space what would be the maximum number of students that could uh that could fit and could attend at one time if you utilized all the classrooms both of basement and the and the second floor I guess there's a lot of classrooms up there as well so quite a bit of classroom space I think I think you answered the question I excuse me I think you asked the question oh I did so first question was how many students could occupy yes given what you've designed in terms of the number of classroom space on both levels was the maximum number of students that could occupy that space at one time okay I think that's a question similar to the uh attorney asked me what's the occupancy load of the building uh and that's I haven't run those calculations yet uh I do know that say for the early childhood development there'll be some State mandated requirements uh how much square foot per student um for the older kids I don't know if there's uh quite that so I have to look at the uh I have to study the occupancy load to answer that question so you don't know you don't know when you designed it you weren't really thinking of a maximum number of students no I was you just thinking of space was there no I was to comfortable like I had given from my client they said well we would love a a classroom of X number size that feels comfortable so that's how I designed it could it handled 100 students or 200 student you don't you don't know wait sir you got you got to let him answer he already answered he doesn't know but let him answer that again yeah I don't know the occupancy load of of of each classroom I I get back to you on what the requirements are okay it be it'll be mandated by the state you know you have a right use and you say okay we have this Bunch square foot you have the occupancy load right could you just remind us how much square footage has been donated dedicated to uh the classroom space both on all the classroom area and have to get uh either we can open up the drawings and take a look at each uh classroom um we can do that together or uh I can get back to you with a number the let's deal with it right now wait you can't the board okay okay listening to everything and ultimately going to decide based on the evidence right they're not a participant divor other than the ability to cross-examine okay so we have uh the early childhood development is one component you want to look down below yeah that's in the basement right uh so each classroom uh let's see I have three classrooms that are 660 square feet each each 660 okay and the number might be for that 35 square feet per student okay okaye and then there's a a little bit smaller classroom of 650 where on this on the b in the Bas in the lower level so three four classrooms okay yes one three at 660 one at 650 yes okay Dan didn't you calculate this on the first floor was 5000 yeah that wasn't that was total right so the total early childhood development including lounges and bathrooms and hallways is 5,000 it's not exclusively classrooms not exclusively classrooms um so that's the lower level and it's about 35 uh if I memory serves me right 35 5 Square fet per student is the state requirement okay that that is the correct requirement you thank you look it up 30 no I'm asking 35 it's going by memory but I think it's 35 so I apologize okay and then we've got so upstairs we've got uh I believe it's three classrooms that we look on the second floor okay did you include the classroom on the in the basement that's 540 squet so yeah there there's a one here that's 540 um that's primarily going to be what well I was imagining that would be interior play Space so rainy days have a place um so that area is 540 what if I may just so we're clear is that 540 square feet a classroom or is it something other than classroom we're all running maybe not all yeah I think it's a more of a internal play Space what is the applicant using it for um proposing to use it for I have to ask the rabbi for a little more detail on that but um you probably have it have the same requirement which is the 35 indoor play area indoor play area not a classroom correct is there any uh uh if I may Mr chairman for clarification purposes is there any additional calculation per student any square footage requirements Vis A the play area that would be added or would that be just completely excluded from a student calculation because it's not a classroom if if I may Mr Warren I'm starting to question the need for these detailed calculations as to things that aren't the subject of the zoning ordinance or the planning board's purview these are things that are relevant in terms of Licensing from the state the maximum number of of students that you can have and still comply with the applicable State codes it's not really gerine to the planning board's analysis of this application I hear the objection I understand the objection my advice to the board is may be relevant or potentially could lead to relevant evidence for purposes of Simply I think what is being sought is what's the maximum even though you may be representing that you're going to cap at a lower number uh if I understand that correctly I think it's reasonable to ask what is the maximum it could be uh and I think that's the tenor of the question so my advice to the board would be if he can't quite calculate it now maybe he can calculate it for expediency purposes reasonless purposes on his own time to get back to it with that question perhaps even shortly excuse me with the answer yeah I would love that I would love that opportunity I don't think anybody wants information want the accurate and and and uh and I'll confirm also that the occupancy load for the classrooms upstairs would be 35 as well but I would like the opportunity to-do list and Mr LaVine that's reasonable to follow up on with your objection no right right yes okay thank you okay you any the reason why I'm asking that well no we can't get into the reason why but I think what's important sir sir sir I think what's important is you've been promised the answer right okay got the great thank you hi good evening everybody uh Randy f 11 Park Circle so my questions are very similar to that I actually did the math on the 3200 square foot so and the 1600 upstairs um I got just got a question that there's there's bathrooms in all the classrooms all five of the classrooms on the ground floor you know I I didn't grow up with bathrooms in my classrooms is is there a reason for that and not bathrooms upstairs uh yes uh the reason for classrooms is uh I guess it's a state requirement for early uh childhood development daycare that you um provide uh bathrooms okay so two two bathrooms for certain certain age group and then the upstairs classrooms classrooms that are like 1600 square foot there's no no bathrooms necessary no so if you have a you know the daycare yes but for older kids no okay very good all right thank you can I follow up based on that line of questioning so does that mean from a statutory perspective there is a limited use for the upstairs as compared to they they can't have preschool children upstairs then exactly right right Christine bass 15 Fairfield Terrace Short Hills can I ask favor talk I'm so sorry that's okay I'm so sorry my name is Christine best and I live at 15 fairf fall Terrace in shills New Jersey perfect uh the re the reason is is every word is recorded by this gentleman for these qu judicial proceedings in the event the future absolutely please so please ask your questions okay my first question is would you if I put my papers down here because you're probably more technically Adept than I am I don't want to mess up your presentation I apologize it's a mini it's a mini Podium um so thank you for your testimony and time um I wanted to ask you during this design process can you testify that you've abided by the aia's code of conduct as an AR uh oh my um have I can you say again have you have you abided by the code of contuct by the AIA code of conduct yes as an architect believe I've acted very professional yes thank you okay um you talked about the colorations of your design and I wanted to ask a question because the designs you have different renderings here so you have this rendering right soor I don't know I should show this to you I'm trying to so you have this rendering that's just the flat facade views can you identify you're referencing I I am bear with me I'm I'm going to help you the the the uh what is the document was it marked as an exhibit is it an architecture bear with me submit please let me finish submission does it have a a front page that has a title to it um nope just says 165 old Short Hills Road Block 2306 11 uh Council maybe you can identify that you say that was what was handed out last time yes sir that's applicant A7 Okay so talking about exhibit A7 for the record thank you and it's a page of it it's not number it's unnumbered that I have the copy of it's shows all the elevations all the page with the elevations please proceed with the question so the color the rendering of the elevations here um is what I would probably uh term a form of an Earth Tone but would be I'm just asking this question a s an orangey sand terracotta color is that the color of the building because your other renderings are in a gray scale so I was trying to understand it looks very VI I think he's got is the gray the orange what's right uh my intentions is that it would be of a neutral Earth Tone colors well Earth Tone's really big so my hair is Earth Tone that's Earth Tone Earth Tone B you want it to be more specific very specific please if we can please keep it in down to pant tone color if you could you show well I'm not sure why but um um no I cannot give you a panone color you didn't select the color of the Pavia no the reason why I'm asking is because the color actually um matters the reasons why yeah you're right question you can answer the question I'm gonna go back to the questioning it would be great if you could provide that I think it would really help people okay so um going on to the next question um The Columns ballister front facade and also the Limestone that you speak of which I believe is on the um the bottom sort of of the facade is that a veneered limestone tile that's being applied or is it a thicker 2inch Limestone I was trying to understand I think you asked it let's see what his answer is thank you I'm sorry I have okay I know it's I'm a little wordy Mr Warner I'm trying oh hey you're the water wordy too everybody will say but I think need to focus on the question not the reasons why okay uh so it won't be a structural Stone so it'll be a veneer is it an engineered stone or is it natural uh the hope is that it's a natural cut stone okay so it'll probably be quarter of an inch you talked about in your testimony last time that you were going to provide an illustration of the AC and roof equipment do you have that in your deck tonight because um I know you were talking about it um we provided that already the 3D that shows oh I didn't I didn't see it I'm sorry is if I may is that part of A7 part of A7 so it would be with within the document that the member of the public yes this the 3D imagery go back the two pages okay you mean this way or no that way maybe we can bring it up on the screen anyway so I'll move ahead do that to keep keep it moving so the the study we did to to look at the rooftop Mechanicals are these four perspectives uh that the Mechanicals are located on the building in this rendering but you cannot see them um okay from the ground so it's not a 3D modeling it's just a 2D image okay I just wanted to clarify that wait is that is that a question is it a 3D modeling or is it not this is a 3D modeling with 3D modeling software yes so in your in your statement um back in December you said that in some form of words I'm reiterating your comments so I'm not trying to quote you that um you did not choose to design as the aesthetic of the neighborhood because you've felt that um and please correct me if I'm mising or missing state that you felt that you wanted to make more of a statement is that correct I don't know if it's uh trying to make a statement as more of its um obviously you know when you have your first we have our plans that I think are fantastic um so then you say okay well what is the aesthetic and I think that the Choice uh for my client um and of course I waited on it was to not make it look like a residential uh building and and to make it most be more of a house of worship um and I think that's appropriate in my opinion why do you think it's appropriate um well for many reasons but my um well for many many many many reasons but um I don't know Wise B once told me that a house of worship should be different right and so when you have a fabric uh of a neighborhood uh most most churches most houses of worship are different and special and so that's what makes it fit in right so you have a rhythm of things and and so I think it's not try to look like something it's not but let's celebrate um let's celebrate and make it a special place uh different than uh everybody we you go to our homes okay now it's a special place we enter into the house of worship and so I feel like that's an appropriate style yeah do you describe the style as hard edged and linear versus something more residential with Gables again that would be a a vernacular or a style that I don't think would be appropriate for uh this house of worship or what we wanted to to have be inspired by so so hard Edge and straight lines no but Monumental Civic um spiritual yes um on the windows that you have actually if you hit that that would be great on the windows that you have um are there any windows that are non-operational or trumploy trumploy meaning to F the ey yes to F the ey no these are um there are no windows to F the ey uh these are all for for the benefit of us non-architects meaning not foe or fake yeah TR tro is to fool the eye so a mural that looks like it's a window or something like that so you're saying the windows are windows not not Windows right fenestrations are fenestrations the stained glass is the stained glass yes so the stained glass which um you have I think four four to six panels I I can't tell from some of the renderings but um is a staining glass only on the East Elevation the stained glass is for the sanctuary so that's East and because the sanctuary sticks out a little bit proud of of the rest of the architecture it's wrapped with some stained glass and I think it would be pretty to have some stain glass on the entry um as well um yes so and then I wanted to ask you um is the window trim black or is it white because it looks like it's black and R Rings uh the window in my dream would be black and the casing or the the trimwork around it would probably be the Limestone okay I understand thank you so you talked about um the mature trees protecting the mostly the property I would think at 18 Madison Terrace um do you know what percent of the 73 trees that are coming down because I know you've been working on renderings when you've been drawing drawing all this what percent of those trees are going to be taken out of the backyard per se because it impacts people on an Madison Terrace Mr CH this was a precise table that included all of these exact calculations that was testified to by the engineer that will need to be uh revised as necessary and the plans to be submitted um it's this wi what was was uh I suspect one can derive from the the ultimate uh inventory and plan which ones are in the rear yard and which ones aren't and calculate a percentage would that be accurate ultimately when it's finalized a percentage of the trees that are being removed that were in the rear if I answer to the question the rear yard area yes that was the question I I suspect they're identifying the trees and one see which ones are in the rear and which ones aren't yeah the exercise could be done of counting the total number of trees in any given yard and the total number of trees that would remain and be removed and do the calculation to calculate that and the engineer could answer that or or individuals could do it themselves if they can make the calculations yeah so we you could just appreciate the visual depiction of that when Mr dub provides the render but this is not the witness is that the testimony yes correct oh the the reason why I asked that he he talked about trees but I think we understood we really can't get to the reasons but it's it's the engineer is the answer so I have a question regarding trees that is related to The Architects drawing um Mr D um this is an an image of the view from like when you're talking A7 photograph is that part of A7 yes it's called view at Park Road yes part of A7 everything in here is part of A7 right and uh Mr du that you can bring that up on the screen for the benefit of the public in the board okay great thank you um so so looking at this as my my question to you is the rendering to me appears to have 40 to 100 year old trees in it can you tell me as an architect when you do renderings is this to look at 30 to 40 years out for everybody to understand what that is and if that is would you provide renderings so they can see the board can see that what the trees are going to look like to years out because I think that's very impactful to the neighbors and residents um I guess no um if I may no which right I don't know um well the the answer to that is uh we're going to be replanting with small trees 3inch diameter trees sugar apples and of of the light deciduous Evergreens so um my intent is to show uh they're going to grow and they will mature and I think there'll be a bond uh that we have to keep so the trees cannot die and they must grow and so sugar Maples 10 years they grow about 60 70 feet tall so maybe an appropriate thing is somewhere in between uh to give a sense of of of the future um but it certainly would be a lot of work to okay we'll do it as a 3inch diameter and then we'll show it in five years six years but but but but truthfully the um even with the replanting the intent is to plant and we I think we testified we're going to try to make the replacement work as much as we can without compromising uh the old growth the new growth and so it'll be a densely wooded lot ask clarify no I was just going to ask the audience please yes so we can hear than if I may ask a clarifying question because if I understood the question and frankly I now have that same question this particular rendering are the trees that are depicted trees that presently exist and are not going to be removed are they trees that are going to be installed uh if it's there's an approval on the construction of the project are there is there a mix there's a mix uh okay so so the ones that exist in this rendering I presume have some height to them uh is is that the roughly the accurate height as the lot presently exists and then are are we talking about the ones that don't exist that are proposed to be planted would be at a much smaller height because their heights at installation they're much younger trees right right it'll be a mix uh the plan is to trying to find out how accurate this rendering is or what is this a rendering the present like I said once we get uh once we lock in to and I haven't seen it yet either but once I lock into uh the replacement trees I'll be able to really get more into the into the accuracy of what stays what's be planted this was really to show the alignment of the two driveways and to really show someone coming out of park and you look to the right and there the building is there in this image um the building is in this image and and and part of my testimony is that you really won't see it and and so to your point um I'd like to get the once I get that information to to sh to show the board um more accurately what you'd see but conceptually is the point of this image at the moment if I understand correctly the expectation is that with more detailed information as to what's remaining and where yeah what's going to be installed and where you'll be able to provide a rendering that might be more accurate reflection of what the view would be at a certain point in time and you'll be able to give us that rough point in time yeah I would like to I would like to um and I think it was a a nice development uh but yeah um you know we without that large drainage swell that we had previously that couldn't be planted now as a result of all these changes we're going to be able to plant much more and have it prettier I appreciate the board the clarification as to what it is and what it may not quite yet right um does the height of the building include the Cornus work maybe you could show them detail the Cornus work um you know I guess I might be using that term incorrectly um but the upward projection of that does that is the height taken to the top the corner yes the the for the height it's to the parapet top of the parapet um so at its lower Point um on the parking lot the building will be 21 ft and at the main entrance 23 feet um and it's based on that average grade this imaginary line that moves through the property so that's why we're at a maximum height of 32 okay thank you um and then in terms of the mikah do you have somebody might have asked us I think they didn't do you have um a separate entrance from the exterior to the mikah for privacy from children um there's no separate entrance to the mikah uh but it's not accessible through the uh the early childhood development portion so you'd enter um you have a couple choices um we actually have developed this this is a entrance here which is also egress in case of a fire so someone could enter this and go down the stairs and wind up right in the mcfa um it's not something that we wanted to be very visual obviously the main entrance is here but someone can enter there uh but probably for security um we would probably like people to go through the front and through the front then you could access uh its own staircase to go down is um excuse me for my um like lack of knowledge but is the mikah below recess below the floor in in the building and is there more than one pool uh there's only one pool and it is recessed in the ground okay there's only one and um will you be using a rainwater collection system for that mikah and where will that be placed on the exterior uh it' be a rooftop collection um and then we will collect some of the rainwater I don't know too much about the specifics of it so I couldn't answer that but I do know part of it is to to collect some rain water so it'll be collected from the roof you know how big that container would be no no so going back to that like I had a question um you talked about the height on the roof equipment um I don't know my house I'm just giving an example so I'm sorry you can shut me down on that one um I have four air conditioning units on a 3,400 square foot house my house is big but you talked about square footage right like well you didn't talk about square footage you talked about the height of the equipment and you didn't get into specifics there's going to be three units a giant industrial unit can you me a sense of the amount of square footage coverage that you have on the roof for all equipment including the rainwater collection system I would like to defer that till get you that answer but I think at some point there needs to be a determination as to the relevance of some of these questions I mean there is no standard there is no requirement it should not matter to a reasonable person what the square footage total of hbac equipment or rainwater collection systems are on the roof well it wait please if I if I may uh and then I want you to my advice to the chair of the board is that you have an opportunity if you want it but I I might uh uh believe that there might be some relevance to the size of structures on the roof uh and there has been and no doubt will continue to be testimony with respect to the visual whether they're visible or not um and uh so if this gentleman knows the total square footage of rooftop equipment he knows it if he doesn't he doesn't I don't think it's an unreasonable or completely irrelevant question I'm gonna go with I don't know it can we agree going forward that that determination of some appreciable amount of relevance should be made going forward as these questions continue on interminably with respect all the respect Mr Lavine uh uh uh as applicants councel I suspect you're doing that U Miss Dory I suspect is doing it as obor's counsel uh I suspect maybe others who are or not attorneys are doing it I can assure you I am uh keeping that in mind uh and if and when you object or anyone else objects I'll advise the board very good thank you Mr Warner may I explain why I asked that question I think no the reason I say that is because the gentleman answered it he says I don't know so okay I didn't know a reason ma' if you have that question for another witness who might know okay that'll be the time um okay you talked about the specific um you spoke to the fact that you did not prepare the lighting plans do you know you I'm assuming you said an engineer did it for the site plan yeah the engineer did it the mechanical engineer or the land use engineer the civil engineer civil okay right the gentleman who previously tested yes Mr fante correct right Joe okay so um the reason why I was asking is as an architect um I'm sure you have a vision of how beautiful a building can be when it's lit up um and you didn't want to drive that process you wanted a civil engineer to drive that visual process oh visual like uh or aesthetic lighting or or functional well I think it's architecture's function in Aesthetics it's my job was the building and and and Joel civil was uh making sure the parking lot is well lit and safe uh um we not planning on any aesthetic lighting of the building so you're not doing any landscape lighting no up lighting no down lighting there's no security lighting on the building security that's different but where would that be uh well where every other emergency light exit light needed to be but um architecturally it wasn't a consideration well there I was just ask asking as as as an architect and a custodian of sort of public space because that's what Architects are in addition to their own clients um I'm made statement I'm kiding myself I'm getting better I didn't speak sorry right you might be wrong the uh hopefully I know what's in my head but I respectfully you don't yet the the uh the um you're asking questions as a a member of the public not an architect um if you want to ask him what Architects do or don't maybe he can answer but if you think you know the point is ask the question that you wish to ask it um from a design perspective directionally I guess I know the answer to that because I want to question the gentleman he so I can't okay so um so it's not your concern how the build things lit up like for example how the beautiful stained glass windows are lit up it's not your concern it's not my uh professional concern no thank you I probably one more question be almost done um I know this is a lot to add you know I'm going to skip that one do you guys have a Google Earth image from April 2024 that shows the trees that were in existence before some of them were cut down during the Demolition and I'm sorry the date was April what well I'm assuming I think that April 24th I said April 24th of no April 2024 I was just G April 2024 thank you April 2024 was all I yes thank you please uh I do not no one I noticed on some of the drawings some parts of the building had shrubs placed in front of the building to soften the lines but some parts didn't will there are these drawings accurate with the shrubs or not I'm going to testify to the building not so much the Landscaping okay yes so it's not really how I'm sorry I should said that um thank you so much for your time thank you appreciate it thank you Jean Pastak 342 Hobart Avenue um hello I have a couple um follow-up questions from some things that were already asked but just to clarify um the A7 sheet 3 is it possible that the units that were depicted on the roof um are relatively smaller than what they will be in actuality to me they look small compared to the size of the building based on how you describe you're asking them if they it's they're accurate to scale or if they're going to be in our estimation preliminary study yes so that depiction yes is in your estimation accurate accurate okay thank you um and as a followup to Jorge's questions about sustainability standards um was there ever a conversation or consideration for a solar covered parking lot no okay but you did say that you would be interested in maybe looking at that in the future me personally I'd be interested but uh I couldn't answer for my client okay so there was there's been no conversation about that no okay um have you let's see um when you described how you considered uh an appropriate style of design for a house of worship uh and you talked about your the wise man's philosophy that you referred to Yes um was that philosophy really referring to a house of worship being built in the middle of a wellestablished long established residential neighborhood or more of a you know open more open space great question no absolutely in a residential uh area um yes okay um uh let's see have you been asked at all at any time by the applicant to um consider uh converting any functions that currently exist in his residential address at one Jefferson to this new facility at 165 old Sur road we I I haven't had a conversation uh with my client about the function of that though okay um have have you ever been asked or discussed with the applicant to consider in any way any residential aspects to this property are we talking about 165 yes residential yes no okay no um what about any adjacent property I'm sorry I don't understand the question are you asking him if he talked to somebody about an adjacent property or about two separate questions yeah but can you please restate the question so I can understand okay um have you ever been asked or discussed with the applicant to consider in any way any residential aspects to 165 old shills Road no that was okay that's the same question as before he answered no yeah and this is the second one okay um have you ever been asked or discussed in any way uh any uh residential aspects of the adjacent property such as one Jefferson no no and I would to the question it's not the subject of our appliation okay and and and generally for members of the board as I suspect members of the board now we're the jurisdiction of the board is to hear and decide whether or not the applicant is entitled to the relief to construct what is proposed to be constructed on the subject lot 165 Vol short bills Road and uh the uh so that is the subject matter of this okay quasi proceed it um can you tell us when you were apprised or asked to consider adding a playground to the design um I couldn't tell you for sure uh exactly um me as an architect I I wasn't asked at all uh to design an exterior yeah playground no that my responsibility was the building so even from the beginning middle current no you weren't okay um uh at what point in your engagement discussions uh and and drawing up your contract or whatever as an architect for the project were you aware that the building would include a preschool or daycare or whatever it's been called yes when oh uh when we establish what the program of the building would be for me beginning yeah for me to design uh the structure yeah needed to know the program part of the program was the early childhood development which is an integral so that was your first discussions with your applicant the timeline of when he was apprised of what the various aspects of the program would be and how many months ago he started thinking about incorporating that into the plans that ultimately found their way to the board I I don't feel is relevant my my advice is that I don't know that it's relevant to get to that specificity if you're asking him you know when you know at the early stages that was his understanding maybe that's what he can answer it was early it was you know when we were trying to design the building we needed to know the program okay um in your professional opinion based on your design and understanding the functions that will uh as you just described that will take place and that you needed to know before designing the building would you say that this is mainly a school no okay thank you are there any other questions from the public before that are there any follow-up questions from the board yes um can I just ask um the elevation the page that's the elevation I don't know what the number is but it has the East West more than El on exhibit A7 on exhibit A7 um when you're looking at the west elevation it looks like there's and the East Elevation there's a gray bar above the building on the top of the building uh you referring to this yes yes that is our screening for our mechanical that so it's going to be that visible well that's what I Tred to testify to is that two dimensionally on this flat drawing that's not reality because it you never see a building you never could be far enough back to see it flat right but as a architect that's one of the drawings we have to do so that's why I try to do the three-dimensional perspective with this rooftop screening to show that you don't see it so yes you'll see it two-dimensionally on a very diagrammatic um drawing but the reality is uh and I made sure I studied that and was important to me as well that you don't not you don't see it can you just yes 3D thank you we can see the yeah so these four perspectives different Vantage points around the building with the same exact uh screening and mechanical system on the roof it's not visible okay so my another question is I I know you said that the material for this what goes around the Mechanicals is going to be metal is there a way to make that material more green green like energy um yeah just more ecologically oh ecologically green um don't know is that something you can look into yeah absolutely I have a question about the sorry the the this this New Concept about a rainwater catching system yes is that necessary for the Mi I believe so I haven't gotten quite into the details how it gets captured but um um from a religious standpoint do you know the answer to that question I do not okay so let's assume that we're gonna have a a rain catching system yes um do you from based on your experience do you know traditionally how no no no wait I'd like to give you an an accurate answer to your question and that can be provided by the rabbi okay and he's more than happy to answer that question and I'll just remind him that he remains under Ro and he can come up now T ask yes okay yeah could you also explain for those of us that don't know what a mikah is I think we'd all benefit those of us yeah is like a SP waitor up you gotta come to the mic and uh just again your name and you're testifying as fact witness yes yes Rabbi bam milski fact witness yes um a mfis a spa it's roughly between 6 by six feet uh and it's filtered heated water like a spa like an indoor Spa um the rain water would come off the gutters there's no collection just the gutters regular gutters that are there already there's no separate system other so there there isn't any additional no the point the actual point of the Mikvah is it should be naturally flowing off the roof and not collect CED so it would be important not actually not to have a collection system okay thank in other words it gets collected in a site built Basin that's the first time it's collected until that time it's quote unquote rainwater once it's collected in a in a stored container it's drawn water or well water it's not rain water oh if I may aski question I apologize if I'm wrong but but just my own curiosity and might be relevant um you've described what it is am I correct to understand that it is in a sense from a religious perspective a type of for lack of a better term ritual bath you can call it ritual bath it's it's by the way used only only only after hours when when the uh I apologize when the uh when the building the rest of the building is not in use significance to it I guess is what I'm asking it's a it's a very important religious ritual yes thank you so just a baptistry I mean I mean for those who who ever attended Catholic or whatever similar is similar to a baptismal font you know which is usually actually a site not a site built U but a fiberglass something brought into the building but this would be actually siteb built so it's similar I mean the concept concept of a baptism F actually comes from the Mikvah it's a biblically mandated Leviticus 15 but could look it up it's right there in the Bible and um talks about Mikvah so uh the concept all those concepts of you know immersing and water flow from that chapter Leviticus 15 okay and what is the the projected use of the Mika is used at night after after am women it's hard to say I mean a very in any case it would be one person at a time um you know after the after Nightfall hours so Nightfall obviously varies during the year but um not during school session or and or almost anything else happening in the building yeah it wouldn't that that I was just I was contemplating how many per day if we had one per day it would be a lot that's a lot thank you Raba yeah going back you showed us you showed us the 3D renders yes correct those again clarification were from the ground yes looking up yes um but in I just want clarification once you give us the other you'll be able to do more of a height kind of yeah I wonder um I I I guess um go ahead Michael we will do our best to give you an accurate depiction of what that will look like off site uh I can't guarantee at this time that we're going to get some sort of crane to you know hold a camera at two stories above the ground or anything of that nature but we will do our best to give a depiction of what that will look like and just one clear of so not the expectation is not just ground level but either at a quote unquote first floor or second floor or I should say second floor level or something of or a window on a second floor of a residential home is that I don't know I can't promise at this time that we can do that right but I feel comfortable with the canopy of the trees and and and how it's cited that uh it's not an issue in terms of a visual Andor noise um yeah so just for clarification of these questions is because we don't have a new Landscaping plan we don't have age appropriate trees showing to us right that'll get more CL clity the public uh to see from there and also uh could we request that the same distance uh be required from the building so from the road or from properties joining I think at the end of the day I would ask the board to recognize that there's no obligation on the part of this applicant or any applicant to construct a structure that is invisible from offsite whether it's in a residential Zone a non-residential Zone whether it's commercial use whether it's residential use not only is that not a requirement it's not a reasonable expectation so we should not be required to bend over backwards and produce several exhibits to demonstrate compliance with something that's not required of us or should reason be required of us or any other applicant if I may I'll be half of the board and the board will correct me if I'm wrong I don't know that the board and I frankly don't believe that's what the board is requesting of the applicant if I understand correctly what the board is requesting of the applicant if if a majority of the board is requesting this and I'll assume unless I'm told otherwise by a majority of the board uh the the is and you could you don't have to agree or do it I believe the request is uh that when the finalization is done of the plan so that a more as was testified by the architect accurate rendering uh uh from a even a ground level view can be provided um I think the request was can you also give uh as accurate a rendering from A View higher than the ground level maybe it would be a second story or Second Story window view in my experience generally uh those types of views uh are uh uh more than uh rarely provided but every application is different and but at least in my opinion that's a reasonable request of the board um but uh if I understand the request correctly from a majority of the board and certainly I haven't heard a majority of the board tell me I'm wrong uh that would I think what is being requested in my opinion it's reasonable applicant will decide what if and when and what it produces so and you don't have to bind yourself now but feel free to do so if you wish I mean the board certainly free to request information um and we'll confer and we'll determine what you know is reasonable for us to try to to present to uh to to meet those uh to meet those requests for the reasons I I already presented though I I I would point out that should not be held against the applicant if for whatever reason it should just determine that either can't or shouldn't be required to or doesn't wish to provide that additional information with regard to which it doesn't have to demonstrate compliance let's see if it's provided let's see what all the evidence is and the board will decide based on the evidence and and the legal standards and parameters so um but I think we understand that it's a TBD as they say nowadays to be determined can I just ask a questionless you're building a school does the state of New Jersey have any requirements for your plans to be approved by something other than I believe so uh for the daycare uh the Early Childhood portion of it it would most likely um need approval has that have you had that approval no no and if I may to dtail off Mr chairman the um is there and this is of applicants Council uh might there be an additional layer of Developmental review at the state level for the daycare component would that only apply perhaps to a sole daycare use as opposed to a daycare that's a part of a house of worship uh to be honest m i i i don't know the answer to that question I'm not familiar with the regulatory or licensing requirements at the state level with regard to specific use in particular I'm referring to ml 66.2 if I recall correctly I might be off um but maybe that's something that the applicant can look into isn't that isn't that the section that has to do with whether or not you have to uh include uh square footage that's devoted to onsite daycare use for purposes of lot coverage and parking and that sort of thing maybe I misunderstood your question I don't then then yeah then uh I don't want to take up any more of the everyone's time but maybe we can both double check the extent to which if at all that's applicable to these proceedings or if it may be something to do with the a subsequent condition of approval by the way if there's an approval and there's condition you know it's not uncommon that there are other authorities that have to weigh in uh uh after conditions subsequent as we call them then I have a question on that so that if that is the case and the subsequent approval results and changes to something that's already P year do we does it come back to us if I may in the event there is an approval and a and there a condition of approval or regardless there's another Authority that has the way in um um uh the approvals that the board gives at the municipal level are subject to those subsequent approvals um it's possible I guess that there could be requirements of other authori parties that might require uh a a a return to the board uh candidly at least in my experience those are the exceptions not the rule um but to paraphrase speak generally um but it's possible yeah my experience is similar to Mr Warner's so I had a another question so we saw a number of renderings and I think people alluded to the facts that you know they were potentially mature trees or it was unclear you know what level of maturity those trees were and are you guys going to I know we talked about this but are you guys going to give us a rendering of what it would look like when the building's completed you know when you guys move in from the street what it will look like how much of the building we'll see versus how much of the landscape we'll see um because I think that would be more accurate um you know compared to the renderings that we were we were sh and so if I understand you're talking about what the in what the view would be a rendering of the view uh uh uh with the Landscaping at the time of installation as we say the time of you know certificate it's done officially done which is generally roughly the time of installation not the mature trees but installation or rough Heights that that was the so I understood the reest and everybody understood the right because certain certain claims were made about how the camp will cover the mechanical or oh you won't really see much of the building from the street well if that's true on day one okay but that's good to know but if that's not going to be true for another 20 years well I think we should should know that because that affects the accuracy of I mean I think maybe if man so I think what we've already stated so we attempted to do that already and you've seen that initial attempt and I I think what Dan had told Dan had told the board was that he will compare the revised site plans against the renderings that he's prepared and to the extent that they need revision because things have changed he would do that I think my further understanding is if he can also incorporate what the proposed Landscaping would look like uh would also add that as that as well and and I think the request is being made can it be done at installation among other things uh uh whether it can or it can't at least certainly so uh somebody should be able to express this is what we estimate it's going to look like when when you know day one day year one year 10 I I think is part of what's being asked for for the board yeah and then in particular I think we're we're there's been a request for in at roughly at the time of installation time of installation and then you want to give us what like in X number of years in other words think it's benal don't show a rendering and not tell anybody when it's look like that that's all I I what we will do we've heard the board's request similar to the other request we've heard it we understand it we'll make a determination as to what we feel we need to show the board in order to carry our burden of approve sir uh we've heard what you've asked for that I I can't promise you standing here what that ultimately understood I think the board understands that and uh that's most importantly if there in fairness to the applicant if a board has an interest it's important for the applicant to know what it is and everybody to understand what it is and then the applicant will proceed accordingly so I have a question some of somebody already asked about materials and I was looking here at the checklist for the planning board submission and he requested here elevations with material Dimension and signat and when I look at this R it's hard for me to understand what the materials are and the colors I know you said about Earth colors yes but many applicant they bring sample of the material can we have a almost everybody was asking also for that more realistic going to look theing because that's what we have to look how buing is going to look I mean I I honestly believe that what we have to look at is is yeah unfortunately our responsibility is you know does the building need any variances we we don't does it meet the height it does so there are no um design or historic um so to answer the question it's it's too early to let's say go material shopping and present to you this is what I'm going to use aot of do that yes municipalities right but it's um I guess to get to that spe specifity um is premature uh we have a lot to to do into design and so what's in front of you is obviously a conforming fully conforming uh application that we worked hard to do and uh I guess we want to reserve the right to be able to make our material choices uh as as we want to May with that wait we shouldn't be getting into that those types of preliminary determinations but maybe uh uh what you're asking for is what's sometimes referred to as a material board or a uh that indicates color and material or at least some sort of visual of those colors and materials and uh uh you know I everyone understands the argument with respect to what relief is sought and what relief is not sought um but nevertheless the request for material board or or example or or colors that might not be an unreasonable request and again it's up to the applicant but if that's being requested is that something that in the context of this application uh some sample board color board material board can be provided would that be along the lines of your request ke this is the checklist that they have to add for the submission the request the request has been identified should that have been provided already in order we did the complete this check uh Mr D did you indicate on the submitted architectural plans did you identify material yes I did and the color materials that not the panone color but the the feeling that we're going to seek but yes we would uh Limestone base a stucco elevation uh we're going to use some Limestone uh trim details and cornices so I don't think we're prepared to go to the stone yard and say this is the stone we're going to use this is the color we're going to use I think we reserve our design right um and are those indicated on yes they're indicated on the yes yes you speak your your was checklist deemed satisfied it was deemed by uh uh and uh and I didn't give Mr line an opportunity to answer the request for material board color board that was the request yeah we we've heard the request we part of our putting together our presentation we understand the request and we'll provide what we feel is is necessary understood can I just take that a step for that this board is to ensure residential development in addition to existing homes are compatible with the prevailing neighborhood context so I do think it's important that we do know materials and you know how this is going to look and just for clarification you're reading for the checklist page 48 of the master plan oh the m page 48 of the master plan not the checklist okay thank you of course the master plan is not a regulatory document and I mean we testify this to the materials I question the need for would I people going to lay hands on the Limestone to get I understand the concern again nobody's weighing in on whether it's required or not no one's wary it was simply a request uh that a board member made and maybe more than one board member uh you've take it under advisement you'll ad you'll you'll present and and we'll proceed very good thanks I I just I think particularly because we have two different renderings here one the buildings look gray and one the buildings look more Earth Tone and when you say Limestone I don't really know what you're referring to so if there's any way that you could be a little more specific um and give us a better idea of what we're going to be looking at on the building it would be appreciated yeah I I we don't need the specific patone color I think we're we're trying to Asain is is it a gray building is it a a yellow building and I wonder why that matters I I just seems to be the question I know but um I get it I understand um I I think I think it matters in the sense that you know we've seen a number of exhibits that portray something a certain way and I I don't think we want to be surprised if you know that's that's different I think it's reasonable to say okay is what we're looking at if it was the jurisdiction what it's going to look like right I understand thank you okay I think we can proceed with any further questions from the board or if we're moving to the next witness I have one final question um Miss best had uh spoken about lights from the outside and I do have a question about light inside we're going to grade lengths to Shield all of the parking lot lights and everything on the outside so it doesn't flood anybody else's view do you are you aware of any of the inside lights large chandeliers anything from the inside that would also have the same effect on the neighbors right that's a good question uh obviously we'll have lighting uh at night we'll be lit um I don't know if there's a uh any rule of okay at this time of night it has the lights on but we will have interior lights uh obviously the staining glass would would uh have a soft glow like any other home uh I can imagine um but nothing on the outside of the building no accent lighting no things like that yes could there be a stipulation that any of the brighter lights or larger lights that are inside be turned off or toned down I mean obviously I can't imagine from an energy uh point of view that we would want uh keep the lights on when we didn't have to uh I don't know if there's uh I guess I don't know how to answer the question or I guess uh what's the question well it may be more of an operations question are they is the applicant willing to take concern over emitting light after a certain hour or something that might be a nuisance to the neighbors I guess I want to I seems presumably there should be some sort of Distinction I guess as to whether or not are you are you inquiring about when the building's unoccupied because I wouldn't I I I guess I wouldn't want some sort of condition or stipulation to kind of morph into uh an hours of operation restriction you see my point yes um I understand and we've already agreed to um not only shil the lights as you mentioned but also you know that they would be uh dimmed and limited to just adjacent building security lighting after hours yeah that's all the exterior yeah I I don't I don't you know as long as there's not some sort of active um service activity going on inside the building that of course would have to you know comply with any applicable you know General Municipal ordinances with regards to hours of operations as long as nothing like that's going on I don't know why it would be unreasonable to have a similar restriction in to the one that applies externally so I guess that's a long way of saying if that's what you're talking about yes I think that would be more than acceptable yes thank you thanks any other questions from the board would anybody be opposed to taking a quick five minute break very much appr witness next witness to be preparing think we'd welcome it as well thank you and and our next witness is the traffic engineer as previously discussed yes that's right thank e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e just for the record we don't have to do a roll call but just let the record reflect all the board members are back who we're here originally and we're proceeding Mr L is your next witness ready yeah absolutely um Andrew if you could come forward please if you could just reintroduce yourself to the board absolutely uh Andrew viio uh from Stonefield engineering and design I am the applicants traffic engineer pleasure to meet all the members that uh were just uh uh approved or appointed to the board and does your applicable licensing remain current yes and i' like to remind you that you remain under oath from the last time yes I understand that um so you did did you have an opportunity to hear me describe to the board in my introductory remarks kind of some of the ongoing work that you've engaged in with the board's traffic consultant with regard to kind of focusing very specifically on anticipated traffic impacts associated with the um you know the preschool early childhood education program that's been described yes I I did uh hear that understand it and will make my uh uh best effort to um provide an update to yes so if you could please do just kind of take the board if you would from um you know the last time that you provided testimony to kind of where we are now sure uh the exchange of information and any any any conclusions that you've arrived at um as a result of that okay great thank you very much um so uh I think that uh one of the first things that I want to talk about this evening um is there has been a good amount of research and and dialogue among the uh the applicants team to formalize the hours of operation of the proposed daycare I think some of that information hasn't been provided thus far I'm going to make an effort to explain that to the best of my ability um so the uh the the ages served uh would generally F fall into four categories younger than two years old two years old three years old and four years old um the uh the program pramming would generally Run for the the pre2 years old from 9:30 a.m. to noon um what I'm going uh there are there will be early arrival permitted um not just for uh younger than two years but for all of the ages that I'm going to talk about so the early arrival essentially parents or Guardians would be able to drop off their children as early as 7:30 in the morning um up to uh 9:30 in the morning so uh pre- two years old uh as I stated 9:30 a.m. to noon um the 2-year-old programming uh is proposed from 9:30 a.m. to noon uh with uh the option for those children to stay uh and be dismissed at 2:30 rather than noon uh the same uh option is available for threey olds and four year olds essentially 9:30 to uh I'll call it like a half day 12 or 12:30 or the option to stay until 2:30 um there will also be a late pickup option as as late as 6: p.m. those are the um the hours of operation uh that are currently proposed um uh and uh the last thing that I want to note is that the the late pickup would not be um offered uh in during the uh winter months um I wanted to specify that it's information from the applicant um so uh this the second step or the second um I guess aspect of this is is that our office conducted an updated Capacity Analysis that accounts for the hours of operation and the um staggered arrival and and dismissal times as I just stated um and our updated Capacity Analysis also reflects the accurate size of the daycare Center um as indicated by the the project architect approximately 2/3 of the basement or roughly 5200 square feet is allocated to the Day daycare center however our pre previous analysis assumed uh that the entire basement floor was dedicated to the daycare center so what we needed to do was update our trip generation calculations to account for the smaller daycare size and the larger house of worship synagogue size um we conducted those uh uh uh updated Capacity Analysis uh updated capacity analyses um the the changes in trip generation uh were uh not significant um and the operations um uh uh and the the the results of our Capacity Analysis are generally consistent with my prior testimony specifically the movements at the proposed driveway um at the intersection with old Short Hills Road both the movements exiting the proposed driveway and Park Road uh are uh were continuing to find that they are operating at uh level of service e or better during all of the peak hours which is consistent with my prior testimony um a hearing or or two ago um uh the uh again the Q lengths uh I provided testimony uh that the Q links were calculated as as one vehicle on both Park Road and and the site driveway in the proposed condition that is still uh the case based on these minor modifications that we've conducted to our Capacity Analysis um we uh we have not but we will provide our findings to the Township's traffic engineer formally for their for their review um uh going back to um uh the dialogue at the beginning of this hearing and what council just mentioned um seeing that Joe Fishinger is is is not here I want to be careful with with my summary of of our conversation since the last hearing uh but but in summary Joe did express some willingness to re-evaluate the recommendation to cap the student enrollment lower than the state licensed capacity pending review of the daycare hours that I just testified to um specifically the flexible arrival and dismissal times um and also pending the updated trip generation calculations uh specifically without any uh sibling trip generation credit um if the board recalls that was a component of our initial traffic impact study um so with the hours of operation as proposed now established um we intend to provide Bright View engineering with the updated analysis that I just testified to um for their consideration so essentially what we have done is we've made an effort to prepare an analysis that that accurately captures conditions in a scenario where the daycare enrollment is only limited to the state license capacity uh not um not a lower capacity as has been uh discussed as a potential option uh uh in Prior meetings um uh you know that being said but you know we're making an effort to provide the information to Bright View engineering um they can certainly uh uh continue to um come to the conclusion that uh it would be beneficial to cap the capacity of of of the student enrollment lower than the license capacity uh but the analysis that we've conducted um uh sought to provide them with what the results would be in a scenario where uh the the daycare center um uh operates uh at its license capacity um what the I make clarification what's the license Mr chairman what's the license capacity again so uh the the way that we I don't know the license capacity uh I've been told to range the way that we conducted our analysis is p and this is the Crux of the dialogue between Joe and myself the way that we the way that we conducted our analysis was purely based on the floor area of the daycare center using Institute of Transportation engineer Engineers trip generation rates without any sibling adjustment so the it provides uh uh projections of the amount of traffic that a daycare center uh May generate based on uh the size of the building not necessarily licensed capacity um so in doing so uh our analysis um our analysis doesn't um take into account a cap of the of the license capacity if I may ask a clarifying question or another one the the the uh are you changing the methodology by which you're going to calculate it if you are are you using a cap if you are is that cap the previously considered cap or is it the State Licensing cap and if it's a State Licensing cap what is the State Licensing cap we are not using the cap to project our trip generation okay we are purely using the size of the building that is allocated specifically for the dayare use how does the State Licensing cap come into play in this analysis if at all so what what we sought to do was to prepare the analysis for the floor area which um using the it data set the um it's it's reasonable to assume that those study locations were were not capped and we're operating at their licensed capacity so we're using a data set that is uh sites that are operating at their license capacity so so so if I understand correctly the the it trip generation manual utilizes examples correct if wrong nationally correct okay of classes of use code by code daycare I guess is what we're referring to here that is correct okay as the code and the uh uh and the assumption is that those are all acting at capacity and therefore your you it doesn't are you saying that you're not using the state of New Jersey capacity for this particular proposed daycare because you're just comparing them to those others in the trip it trip generation manual presumably 11th Edition correct okay okay uh I'll let others ask question same question I think I have the same question Ste if if the national if the trip generation takes into National Trend based on statutory capacity do you know how it accounts for State variation like between New Jersey or New York if there is a variations on on statutory capacity based on hey New Jersey says for for every 35 square foot you can have one child whereas New York says every 40 square feet you have a child yeah I I don't know that difference what I can do is when uh when generating trips um I I specifically used the floor area based on um a dialogue between Joe and and myself it's it's the uh the standard um independent variable the most commonly used independent variable for calculating trip generation the it trip generation manual also allows you to uh calculate uh or project trips based on enrollment um so uh that might be a more um uh a beneficial comparison to provide the board and its professionals to to see what the trip generation calculations would be based on enrollment um versus based on floor area but uh we chose floor area as it's the the the most commonly used independent variable and um was suggested by by Joe may I ask a broader clarifying question um M um if I understand you generally uh regardless of what you're using and how you're doing the analysis uh you're not done yet and you haven't provided it to our traffic uh the board's independent traffic engineer yet correct it has not been formally submitted okay and there's an expectation that that it will be that he will review it he will address it and I assume you'll be back for that yes sir okay so then would it make practical sense uh to have that done when you're done he's done and we all are back together again it makes sense to me but I'll defer to councel on on the procedure and this all this should all be wrapped up and be ready to put a bow on it when we next conven okay so this so this was by way of just letting us know that it's still a work in progress for lack of a better term that's exactly okay and and maybe then we should await the finished product um and everyone should await the finished product so that we know what we're dealing with when we address it in this in these proceedings that um there may be some issues or questions or concerns and in particular I happen to notice our traffic engineer who's not Mr Fishinger but here for him this evening uh anxious to speak so I'll defer of the chair on that yes sure so our office has you do have to just you were SW it already but please just identify yourself Greg R Bri view engineering um so our office has had conversations with Andrew and we've gone over the additional analysis that's needed right now we're really not in a position to give any guidance um we will be issuing a report once we receive the information we'll dra our review and we can discuss it at next meeting not surprised to hear that the personally I don't want to speak for anyone else um but but that might reconfirm the logic of U waiting for everybody to be done and then to have it presented um but I suspect the board appreciates the update and the public may as well uh but uh I don't know that they're we're at a point to necessarily begin interrogating something that we haven't seen yet and and nor has the professionals at least for again and and just to make sure so that we don't sort of have to come back to this again after the next time when you do your analysis you're going to do it based on a fit forp purpose meaning you're going to review his report based on your understanding that this is a religious a religious institution with a school with a Nursery taking into account National New Jersey yeah we're going to make sure it gets treated like any other commercial daycare as well okay good okay so to sum it up the professionals are still working yes sir okay just just a question um yes chair the whatever the final design condition is know was like is it the most stringent of the design conditions or this is going to be specific just to the site like forance if it's you know you PL everything on Gross floor area right right and say that's maximum amount of people I can get in here regardless of what my my occupancy for the day carry necessarily to be licensed occupancy right which is it going to be the most stringent or is it going to be sort of somewhere in between it's going to be strictly based on Institute of transportation engineering nationally accepted industry accepted process for calculating trips which which directly is irrespective of the state of New Jersey's capacity a cap excuse that is correct and that was an excellent question um and I think to um address the potential for different states and jurisdictions to have different standards with respect to how they calculate license capacity um uh we will uh make sure to include a comparison uh uh of the trip generation based on floor area and based on uh enrollment um so that uh everyone can make informed decisions on the suitability of of of which one to use right so covering all bases trying to thank you I just kind of follow up with that and the uh actual traffic studies that were done are you taking what you already did or will there be new traffic studies so the the traffic counts themselves we are not conducting new traffic counts um what we are doing is updating the trip generation um and uh updating the the hours that we are studying based on the the programming of the the daycare that that was just recently established and as I and I as I just testified to so the hours that we study will will fit and make sense relative to what I just testified to just a reminder that some of the dates that the traffic studies were done were around the holidays um and and and beld you're you're asking him if isn't that correct is that precisely is that correct I mean some of the we questioned some of the dates uh in which the traffic study was done um so I would like that to be clear on this report yes we'll be very clear with with when the traffic counts were collected um traffic counts were collected in Spring of 2024 and also uh two weeks prior to Thanksgiving uh when we made an effort to to uh count traffic specifically using Park Road um those traffic counts were collected um two weeks prior to Thanksgiving and what we found was actually the counts from the fall uh along Old Short Hills Road the traffic volumes were lower than than what we counted in the spring so in in the last analysis that we submitted um and in this forthcoming analysis we will use use the higher of of of the two um along Old Short Hills Road thank Mr just procedurally what I think would be appropriate is uh Andrew uh testified as to specifics with regard to operational hours and operational details that were he testified were provided to him by the applicant I think it would be appropriate procedurally if I just had the rabbi come up and um directly as being the the one who would be responsible for operations at the site to um um just briefly confirm for the record that those uh hours and operational details are are in fact accurate as opposed to you hearing them indirectly through Andrew that sounds great if you would please yeah so I I do agree with the with what he said and and the reason I asked our attorney to make that comment because the Friday um it's only on Fridays during the winter time that we would not be offering the late drop off The Late Late the late pickup late pickup uh other days that means Monday Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday the late pickup would continue even during the winter months so I wanted to make that clear to the board so so only Fridays there won't be a late pickup uh in the winter I suspect perhaps that would impact the sabath the Sabbath yeah on Friday's during the winter months yeah thank you for otherwise I do agree with his thank you for the confirmation and the clarification can you just clarify winter months meaning like from October to yeah yeah I mean when Sunset starts to get to be you know we're talking about um late pickup at 6:00 pm so when Sunset starts to get much before let's say seven it's hard for our staff to stay there and get home in time you know so would be pretty much most of the winter if I may for further clarification would it uh uh uh since you won't have the late pickup till 6 would you have the late pickup to some point time price 26 but after 230 I don't think so or would you not have the late pickup no I don't think we I think we end at 2:30 I think we simply not have a late pickup option at all yeah on those Fridays yeah that's generally what's done that's generally what's done but in in other facilities I mean I I said this in previous meetings we've never had a program like this that we're pretty much copying other people that seems to be what other people do okay thank thank you the uh and is that the the end of this evening's update from the traffic engineer as confirmed by the RBI yes okay then then I mean I'll defer to the chair but given that we're at the stroke of 10:30 and given that I believe we're going to be uh engaging in all this discussion when we actually have the final product uh vetted through our professionals I think procedurally it would be practical uh including for members of the public board members to everyone that we um allow that to occur and then proceed with questioning based on on the report and the input from the professionals particularly the traffic engineer we don't have to go round about round about round about the mberry bush as they say I think that makes good sense yes okay and uh B jury uh uh would you agree that we'll address everything in one F swoop when we actually have it um yes I just had one point of clarification there was a lot of testimony this evening about the hours of operation they're going to be relied upon by the traffic engineer I assume those hours of operation will be set forth somehow in writing or in the Traffic Engineers report will they be in the a a version of the report we get from the traffic engineer so they'll be reiterated in writing yes absolutely I don't know if it will be anywhere else but it will definitely be in the traff and then similarly there was testimony earlier that one of the classrooms was changed to an indoor play area will that be reflected might have always been one I don't know but there was a change the indoor play what's the question about the indoor play area will that be uh corrected on the plans changing one of the classrooms to an indoor play area he shows us it I mean to the extent it needs to be uh corrected or clarified we'll do I I'll check with my client to make sure I mean I think it was initially anticipated to be a play area and we'll just confirm that that's still the the plan it's a play area not a classroom it'll be confirmed and it'll be in writing and on a plan okay because it had to go to the occupancy and the number of children in the building thank you thank thank you thank you for those confirmations I guess if I could I guess not to nitpick but we'll certainly clarify that provide that information testify to it I'd rather not have to submit you know 16 sets of revised plans that just changed the label on a single room I mean I think we can clarify that as part of our record and then as if if we're fortunate enough to be approved as part of the standard resolution compliance and submission of revised plans we would do it at that time I think it's a reasonable request my advice to the board particularly since it happens almost always that uh one of the many conditions is final detailed plans reflecting everything uh for you know for sign off Etc so uh as long as it's confirmed uh again uh that it's a play area not a classroom and presumably that may have some impact on other things like traffic counts calculations I don't know uh you know it'll all all it'll all be clear and ultimately that would be a condition of approval uh if there's an approval uh so I think where are we and I think where we are is uh uh we're going to reconfirm that we're going to continue these proceedings and carry without further notice if I understood correctly uh Mr not to January 21 but perhaps 22 I did it again I thought that was I thought that was a joke on your you know it's I I tell so many bad jokes that when even when I'm serious it's the uh I cried wolf uh the the January 22nd helmet the the um are we able to carry this to February 5th I'm Not The Keeper of the schedule on the pending applications six is a day after the meeting right carrying to when are we carrying this matter to um if not January 22nd then February 5th February 5th and we're available to do that that uh uh our other pending applications what have you uh we can carry this to we can hear this on February 5th is the expectation the night will be the enti we do traffic of the night or which or for the time being we do um not to be Cloak and Dagger we're just doing scheduling so um we going to be prepared to be here on February 5th I think um probably the big ticket item is going to be a review of the revised civil engineering drawings and I think a lot of the other kind of supplemental testimony flows off of that so um we expect those plans will be submitted they will have been submitted in advance we're anticipating getting uh supplement you know updated supplemental uh reports from the board's experts with regard to those revised plans um so I would expect that we would probably lead with the revised engineering drawings understood as first okay yeah and certainly I want to cover as much care territory as we possibly can uh and we've also discussed um a small amount of supplemental testimony from our architect based on his updated renderings and what we determined to uh to submit uh in support of our application um and then if time allowed there is also the loose end of the traffic so we we we have these three supplemental if you will is the expectation yes for and again February 5th uh we're carrying this matter without further notice we have one more piece of information one more um if I may just in support of the applicant and just so that we are all prepared for the cover fifth meeting date um just I mean the professionals it would be good if we could get the plans by January 22nd uh from the applicant that would give us a the civil engineering the updated Revis plan may be that will give us the benefit of a week to review those plans and prepare reports and then the board a benefit of a week to review our reports in advance of the media and and just a request from same with the traffic same same with the traffic and with with those uh with those request for reasonable period of time can are you still good for February fth I have to believe so because the engineer told us we could be good by the 29th so if we could be good by the 29th we could be good by the 5th there you go okay and the other the other uh Witnesses are here so it's speak now or forever hold your piece okay uh all right so uh chairman if I minut or if you wish uh a couple questions tell do do we have anything uh on the agenda for the 22nd oh as of now no oh okay it was just Corey had mentioned I'm not gonna ask how about the 21st go ah no if if we don't have anything then would the board be willing to entertain a meeting on the 29th so we cancel the one or move the one from the 22nd and go to the 29th we'd have to check our schedules on that Mr M tell the applicant would very much appreciate that and we did start the hear the night off with with that request if that's at all possible that would be very welcome when do we have to schedule now or just well we need to announce this evening when we're carrying the matter to uh the problem is right now we don't have a meeting schedule for the 29th we don't know if we will have ever a meeting schedule for the 29th so I don't know how I carry it to the 29th if there may not be a meeting on the 29th right now the only the next meeting is the 21st 22 22nd I'll never uh the 22nd uh or the uh or the February 5th um I guess the only other the only other way to do that would be to Ren notice what do you wait a week and and you got the February 5th guess in the scheme of things it's just just on the professional riew that would just Advance our need a week earlier perhaps it would be well I don't want to I'm not it's not for me to say what's Pro yeah all right stay with theth I think it's going to be too rushed we don't be very benal to have okay so meeting Carri or application carried to the well hang I wonder if the board got a new application like other than this would they still have it on the fifth then or just cancel do we do we have any applications that were submitted that have complete is it reasonable to assume that we won't have any other application before February there was one application that was submitted in December but I don't even know if it's sched forc there's still no meeting um I again if if the 29th is viable um we would be ready to provide substantial testimony on the 29th including from uh at the very least our our civil engineer and our architect and you be Ren noticing for the 29th and this board would have to decide right now whether we're going to get a quorum on the 29th I'm not saying we're covering all the and I think that's the way it would have to proceed up for the board to decide yeah need the report are you going be able to get stuff information well I'm assuming there's a there's a 10day rule correct that be the 19th stat um I mean it just reduces the time that you all have I apologize so uh yeah so let's be clear and make the proper announcement it's the fifth yes and and I find this is the hardest part frankly but scheduling um but so now where we've landed is the at the applicant's request uh this matter is going to be carried without further notice don't let me say the wrong date to February 5th uh at 7:30 p.m. at the same venue where we are this evening uh again that's without further notice so this is the notice to the public and the world uh that that is when we will reconvene on this matter so thank you thank you all very much have a extension of time to February 6 yes you do before we close out I I wanted to take a moment to offer condolences to the Steinberg family our friend Joe Steinberg passed away a couple weeks ago he was he was a long-standing member of the community he was on the planning board he was on the zoning board really helped out all of us a lot and we appreciated his effort his time his wisdom his experience everything that he brought to us and I thank his family for the time that they gave us to share that or for him to share that with us um I hope everybody will keep them in thoughts and prayers uh in this time of mourning and and healing and uh yeah sorry to end it on that note tonight but thank you for letting me say that um or should do ajn y motion tojn second by