##VIDEO ID:XLFSx6BWVbw## like e e turn on your mic you guys chaotic here tonight okay okay in accordance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 be advised that a notice of this meeting was made by posting on the bulletin board town hall and mailing to the officially designated newspapers a list of the meeting dates annually indicating that this meeting would take place at the town Hall at 7 p.m. on November 18th 2024 josephi pres Shand har here Amy Lawrence here Gary Rosen here Regina Tru here Priscilla s here Jan Pang here Jess goodl here okay um we are going to start with the approval of minutes for uh 10212 24 um are there any changes or Corrections does anyone want to make a motion motion to approve second all in favor I I okay and then we are going to move on to the memorializations the first is calendar 4-24 signature realy 549 Milburn Avenue Milburn who is eligible eligible are shandrew Gary Regina Priscilla J okay would someone like to make a mo oh sorry are there any corrections or changes would someone like to make a motion second second number 40-24 shre herani oh yes Gary Rosen yes Regina Tru yes Priscilla s yes Jessica yes next up we have calendar 49-24 that's 87 Great Hills Road um who's eligible uh the same people okay um any corrections or changes someone like to make a motion a motion to approve calendar 49-24 would someone second that second Shani yes Gary Rosen yes Regina TR yes Cella s yes J GL yes yes um okay so a few housekeeping matters the first is that calendar 3974 d24 um the property location is 389 Milburn Avenue the applicant is 389 Milburn Avenue LLC that matter is being carried to a later date we don't have the date yet they're going to republished you noce okay um so if anyone's here for that we will not be hearing that tonight um the second uh is that our um board attorney um has a conflict on the what's scheduled to be the last application of tonight that's calendar 46-24 the property location is 35 Main Street and the applicant is Willow Milburn LLC um so we are going to be hearing that matter first so that um our board attorney can have his replacement come in and then he will do that to join us right so uh Alex fiser is is here and he's going to be um presiding over uh that application as the attorney for the board I'm going to be stepping outside in the hallway until that application is concluded yes [Music] turn yes okay so just to clarify who's here hi good evening Corey Klein from SS C and grow on behalf of the applicant Willow Milburn LLC doing business as Willow and whisk okay may I proceed yes we submitted an application for a variance pursuant to njsa 40 55 d-7 C in connection with the proposed installation of two channel letter signs on the existing steel canopies fixed to the existing building located at 35 Main Street and identified as Lot 12 in Block [Music] 212 1,212 1212 on the Township tax maps the property is located in the B4 zoning District the applicant seeks a variance from section 609 .10 a of the Milburn Township Code pursuant to subsection C of the ml to permit the canopy signs although the signage complies with the code in terms of size type and design it is the code is silent on whether signage is allowed to sit on a canopy as opposed to being flushed with the facade of the building we have served notice by certified mail and published notice of the hearing and we have submitted proof such publication and service to the board and we would ask that the board acknowledge rece and that jurisdiction is proper I read the notice jurisdiction is proper uh I I just have one witness tonight this is Mr Anthony deetto Jr from Willow and whisk have him morning yeah please raise your right hand you swear tell the truth the hold truth and nothing but the truth in this matter so hope out I do okay uh Mr deetto um what is your position with Willow whisk I'm one of the owners okay and if you could briefly describe your background and the history of the current location sure so the and the existing location elsewhere in New Jersey sure so we're um currently building out a restaurant on the side of the former Charlie Browns um it's called Willow and whisk it's a breakfast and lunch restaurant we have another location in woff um that's been open for about four years uh we do only breakfast and lunch we try to do it like an elevated breakfast and lunch so you're standard fair just a little bit nicer um we came to Milburn um I think it's a great town you know it really has the Aesthetics and the population that we're looking for that I think would appreciate what we're looking to open um and as I'm sure you guys know from driving around the former Charlie Browns um the landlord Mr heler has done a lot to improve that corner and uh I think it would be a great fit for us okay uh thank you and um before I started we were handing out this is um two sheets this is um exactly what was in the application packages yeah I don't know if any Mark yeah it's exactly the two the last two sheets of the application package if everyone wants to take two and pass them down I just blew it up to 11 by 17 so everybody could see uh what's being proposed so um as I said previously we're seeking a variance pursuant to 60910 a of the Milburn code um and the signage otherwise complies but because it sits on the canopy um that's why we are seeking the relief now um as you can see there are two signs so um why don't why don't I take this from you as testimony what what are um so so why are we proposing um the two signs the two signs that we're proposing are looking to go on the canopy this way we can better uh get both sides of the corner with signage and not have to have kind of reduce and be more efficient with our overall signage by being able to put it on top of the canopies okay so um what we're requesting is uh C2 variants um which is the flexible zoning criteria um we submit that the uh purposes of zoning are Advanced and the benefits uh of deviating from the ordinance outweigh the detriments um the variance application must also describe the negative criteria which I'll have Mr address um and so uh Mr deetto um if you could talk a little bit about the uh the Aesthetics of the sign um why did you choose the uh the lettering Etc um and does it comply in all other respects with the ordinance sure the signage um as you see in the pictures is a a pretty basic white Channel letter sign each sign will be each letter will be individually um lit inside um it's going to sit in a RAC track which will provide the support and the power for it um we thought it's you know a pretty standard but uh slightly elegant sign nothing too flashy or or anything like that um and that's why we're looking to have that sign and um is there other signage in Milburn that you're aware of that similarly has uh um is placed on top of canopies yes I believe the Charles Schwab uh the building has Charles Schwab on it has a very similar uh larger I believe signage um than we're looking to do but the same idea that it's sitting on top of their their Camp Fe okay I have no further questions for Mr dead if the board board's professionals or your attorney um have any questions um do we have any questions from the board question about the lighting so you said the each the light is going to be inside each letter so it's not shining up into the no each each letter is a 3D letter and the face of it that's white is opaque so that's where the light will will shine and will it be on a timer or on 24 hours it'll be on a timer so on a timer do you know when they're going to turn off or I would assume we'd set it up for something like DUS Dawn um something D Dawn so it would be on res new there um it is mixed you so there there are some I can I can definitely put it on a less of you know more restrictive timer if uh actually I don't I don't know if there's any res there's apartments upstairs but not which are under construction right oh there will be apartments on top of this where the signage is on the building there's no Apartments directly above but it's the same building just a different part of it next to it that will have apartments across the street I'm not sure I think there's some apartments across the street oh there will be Apartments okay so you would consider maybe turning them off definitely midnight sure yeah would not be opposed to that at all I I don't think we're not too worried about who's AB it you know 121 in the morning making sure they see that we're available for breakfast and lunch what are your hours of operation if it's breakfast and lunch uh 8 a.m. to 3 pm every day are the are the letters on the on the put on the pictures are they to scale um I I believe they are if not exactly to scale very close to scale that was the um the intention of of that drawing but the size is compliant with the SI the size is otherwise compliant with the square footage that we have available yes other questions do we have any questions from the audience any yeah questions or just straight comments this is just questions right now comments later yes um and next will be coms come on down uh my name is you have to be okay tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth with regard to this matter so help you d i do sir you are it just your name and address for the record my name is Robert angle Engle is spelled ngel my business address is directly across the street on Main Street 46 Main Street my home address is 4 Galloway Edison New Jersey thank you I would just like to uh urge the board to uh pass this variance this is a welcome Edition Charlie Brown's sat uh empty for a long time I don't even know how many years it was but a long time Mr heler put a lot of resources into this building including his time he's there every day when I go to work um like to welcome Willow and whisk and wish you much success in your new location it's they've both the owner of the building and the Tenant have done a wonderful job and I look forward to uh being their neighbor thank you thank you Mr angle comments from board members I'm excited to have it open welcome addition to we'll close the we're going to close the public portion um and actually now you can oh I'll repeat I'm looking forward to this business thank you addition to the neighborhood thank you very much we're excited to be here and and be a part of the community here can I just ask in terms of the regulations around the sign represent that there is no prohibition Express prohibition on assign being on canopy is that right to you or counil just I just want to the rules s right think the sign is tasteful and I don't have problem with it but I just want to understand what the r was I mean I did look at the orders I didn't see any reference cies signage so it just it would be a c VAR okay comments just that he did testify that there is a similar signage of Schwab that we approved a few months ago so I think fit right time anyone like to make a motion wait I can second Joseph Coffield yes Shandra yes Amy Lawrence yes Gary Rosen yes Regina Tru yes s yes J yes thank you uh next Monday thank you all very much thank you all thank you let me tell you something you can take a vote somebody has to make a motion [Laughter] okay next up we have calendar 41-24 of the location is 159 H Avenue okay do you s from T you're to tonight's proceeding do the truth call truth nothing but the truth Keller k l l r Patricia Amal Timothy Cy Flavio Amal okay Patricia's gonna start then I'm gonna go real quick and then we'll go to Rich uh I just wanted to thank you the board for taking uh this matter tonight um we have been living in town for seven years since 2017 this is our first house in town it's my first house my whole life um I've lived in apartment buildings uh ever since before and um we moved here we fell in love with the with the house it's a historical house it's very Charming very very lot of Personality um and we have uh um improved it and cared for it all of those years what we are trying to do now is um to add a a floor bedroom um both our parents like his mother and my parents are older we don't have today a room that can accommodate them um in on the first floor it's getting harder for them to go upstairs as a whole house is not really easy to go up and down so we want to um add this bedroom we've been through the Historical Society who has approved um our plans and we are here today to ask you for approval on the uh zooming uh matters and uh Tim and br will help us present the case thank you um oh should I get yeah I'm a licensed architect in New Jersey and New York and been licensed for 30 years my license is in good standing and I've appeared in front of this board on numerous occasions and many other boards thank you the um do the only think they I'm sorry this one second so this is an application that includes an F variant yes right so the board just should be reminded that uh they need five affirmative votes for an approval of the application go ahead um the only thing that Patricia forgot to tell you is that her parents aren't in chadam her parents are in Brazil and so are his parents so when they come up they're here for a couple of weeks I mean they're not like going home after dinner I just you know and that's kind of why we want to make this accommodation into this house the site is5 Hobart and it's on the corner there going right up into Windham it's an R4 the lot area is only about 11,248 fet and um it's required to be 20,000 um but I'm going to really lay off of the planning sort of testimony because Rich will pick it all up for us but this is a colonial revival that's the original Farmhouse for that kind of neighborhood there and it was built in about 1860 and it's still in pretty good shape shape and actually restore it well on the inside um a lot of it done by these guys since they moved in and um what we're asking for tonight is to add a really a bedroom and a bathroom on the first floor this is also a corner lot right there in the corner of window if I go to my HPC one sheet there's on the left side is the existing survey on the right side is the proposed you can see on my right side the right side sheet that if I come up or I come on Hobart the sort of paddle Courts for the rackets club right across the street to um like this this which I think was a little development at one time and they built those little peers I don't think they were actually part of the original Farm but we are restoring one of those peers as part of this work and went to the commission and I have a little detail of it if you want to see what we're doing but we're rebuilding and restoring that Pier um but now we come up and on the Windom side we want to remove an existing patio that's actually kind of a non-conforming element in the front yard and replace that patio with this one-story building and so that's why our lot coverage which is actually over is not being intensified however it's just being sort of flipped because we're adding additional building coverage as we removed some of the lock coverage but Rich will go into it in better detail than I but it's a really a one-story addition I come to mind first floor plan my next sheet and now the Windom side is on the bottom of the sheet and you can see all we did was take this area this sort of negative space between the family room which at one time was the garage converted to a family room I don't know I I would think about 20 years ago and in front of that we're adding a bedroom a little study alve and a bathroom and expanding the existing laundry area on that floor and it'll give us a first floor bedroom that's accessible really right off of the kitchen this is a house with very Arrow W stairs that are very difficult to get up it actually has a bedroom on the third floor which is I'd say kind of difficult to get to like very narrow very tight very low Headroom so by being able to do this we can actually create a workable bedroom on the first floor and leave the rest of the structure intact as it was and that's kind of what's leading to our big push in terms of the coverages you we have a big porch which we're retaining and also some additional spaces that are sort of being reused as part of this being a historic building that we don't really want to do much interior alteration to I go to my elevations on the um what we call the right side is really the window side and you can see that we've actually added a one story element right here to the kind of right of the primary building put Windows into match put our siding into match took all of our materials and match it in in such a way that this will look as if this addition was added you know in a year or could have been added 50 50 years ago I guess it couldn't have been add I guess couldn't have been added 100 years ago the uh but that's um that's it for my presentation and then on my last sheet is this little pier which this is really an exhibit board but I don't think so I'd like to mark it as A1 so this describe Tim what that is is it a series of four photos and a detail right yes of the existing Pier that's there's a pair of PE on at the entrance to wind and um I took these photos about four months ago before we went to the historic commission we got approved by the historic Commission on August 1 actually and there's these two little brick and stone Piers that had to say Windom on them and or the left one says wind and we are repairing really rebuilding the one on the left and we have done a little detail of how the existing Pier is so that we could rebuild and historic commissions approved it so we're kind of this pier is actually on the town's properties it's in the right away of the stream it's a little bit like my client is kind of doing a favor a little bit for the town I guess i' like I think that's the only reason why I'm showing it to you this do they need to get approval from the town yes we've had that we've gone through all of that yeah so I've handled that so with that in mind I'd like to turn it over to Rich Let's wrap up yours Tim are you reciting the whole house what's the exterior finishment we're GNA it's it's existing W right wood shakes and in clapboard and we're just continuing the clapboard all the materials on the outside matching exist just before you turn it over um any questions from the audience for the architect good evening uh as you know my name is Rich Keller I am the engineer and planner tonight primary planner for the applicant I have a Bachelor of Science in civil engineering with concentration and water resources and urban and uh urb I'm sorry what resources and environmental engineering and I also hold master's degree in architecture in the New Jersey Institute of Technology with a declared concentration in urban planning and design where I also taught the adjunct U as an adject professor in the architecture division for approximately 11 years both undergraduate and gr undergraduate uh again in the School of Architecture and planning I have appeared before this board the planning board approximately 110 boards throughout the state of of New Jersey I've also uh provided professional planning services to the um Township of uh Caldwell and I've been the engineer for the planning board and board of adment for the township longale for 3 years uh I just gave that up last year uh my licenses are in good effect and it's nice to be back thank you thank you um I have two exhibits this evening and I'm g mark them both off the start this is the A2 this is an annotated aerial photograph uh image is taken from near.com an area map Subscription Service the the capture date was actually October 5th of this year 2024 the exhibit was prepared by my office November 18 2024 the tax map lines were taken off of the township ta digital tax maps and it's combined with some of the survey information from our survey which was on on Tim Le CH uh that'll be my A2 and then I also will have A3 A3 is a site photo board uh all photos were taken by myself actually uh either uh yet uh Saturday or today um so they do reflect site as it exists today I'll go that a few minutes and then I do have an A4 which is a uh landscape plan uh Dr by Barry Greenberg I'll today um site development planting plan birchill Landscaping um it is uh it has no date but I will put today's date on it uh as Tim indicated the site is uh at the northwest corner of Hobart and Windam Road it is approximately 335 ft to the west of the intersection of uh of Southwest from Highland and Hobart uh and as Tim said it's directly behind the uh the Short Hills bracket Club bdle Tennis pool Etc are on the right side of the drawing um Windam road is a private road comes up um as was indicated there are two Stone Piers that were built in the late 1800s uh indicating the Windom subdivision it is unique uh in the area it's small Charming little Lots the lots are really more akin to the r six Zone which is the South Mountain Zone um that requires 6,000 square feet you got some lots that are 6,000 feet 7,000 feet 7,000 square feet and then some do get a little larger because they geter um but it is uh it is wholly located in the R4 residential Zone as is the uh the rackets Club the um the property uh as indicated is a designated site as are all of the homes along Windam are designated sites um in the Short Hills Park historic district and as Tim indicated as such uh these plans have been fully vetted and actually developed um with some input from uh the HPC as well as Barton Ross their adviser the um the property is in a regularly shaped rectangular lot um it's about 153 ft of Frontage along Windam Road and about 75 ft along hobar the the depth the perpendicular depth between wind um and the what's the functional rear technically side yard the functional rear yard uh is 73 feet um the uh the lock contains as Tim said 11,248 square feet in an R4 Zone that requires 20,000 so about 56% of the required lot area so we're considerably undersized um then that shallow depth um to wind them means that if you fly 40t set back and the 22t set back to a rear yard you're left with about 11.4 by 90t permitted building envelope within the Zone that's the dash line you see kind of cutting through the house um that uh I would I would point out that area that odd long area is about 1,25 square feet just the r alone wraparound porch alone is 450 Square F feet almost 460 ft so roughly one third of the allowable coverage it's just taken up in the open porch so clearly uh it's an undersized lot and when we look at both setbacks uh as well as coverages um there I will I will um preview my planning testimony there could be some um hardships or um or significant conditions created by the fact that we have an undersized lot with um peculiar shape and that's very shallow as well as a location of a lockal existing structure on the site all make it difficult to add to this property without seeking varant relief the um I would point out um with regard to that setback the existing house is at 19.83% 19.75 was the average coming around there uh 1977 was the average but technically we do have that new ordinance that allows you to use your side of the street up to a corner lot so it's really only two properties you don't get to use your house and when you only have one remaining one lot is not allowed to be considered or prevailing so you default back the 40 foot requirement so instead of of the prevailing um requirement of um 19.77% uh we do have to go up to 40 which obviously as I said if you went 40 feet and a 22 and a half foot setback to the uh to the sidey yard you'd have only 11 feet for a building so again the undersized regularly shaped lot um as well as the location of the lofly existing structure on the property we think creat some practical difficulties add to the home without the need for varant Relief I will put a photo board which is 83 and uh if you can see see from Hobart um you can see the 1800s Farmhouse that was probably the anchor for the whole development as the uh the properties was developed up and around the Private Road l you can see has a generous wrap around porch across the front continues up the sideline it is two stories with some nested space in the Attic um it is you look at it photograph number two looking Northwest from the intersection and you can see that wraparound for um continues that open open Airy space around and then it HS a solid section um that is blocked with some trees and then it gives way to if we come around further onto Windam photograph number three this is look directly from Windam you can see that generous wraparound porch with the side stairs and access up to the driveway again um that solid section that we're extending is some will block by the existing Landscaping I'll go over the proposed Landscaping in a minute and if we look finally we continue with l we look back down to the South you can see this is the Nook in which we're we're planning on adding the addition so right now there is a a garden brick wall there's a combination of slate stone and plantings in that area that basically is about the 390 Square F feet that we're we are putting a house on if we look at the U between the uh there is some planted area up there but we're also reducing the amount of the sidewalk on the front it's no longer necessary to make that Loop into the to the front patio so the combination of the reduction of the sidewalk as it extends out to the driveway and uh and the removal of the um removal of some landscape area they net off so that there's no actually there's a five square foot decrease in impious but we're just going to call it a wash um for that's the way we noticed it which is the Landscaping that you referenced is that going to be removed this part of yeah what's what's shown in this little Nook that's where the house is going and it's very been very careful I know Tim studied a lot of roof lines and went over a number of options with HBC and they really want us to continue the same slope that's over the roof it's hard to see these pictures but the same slope that continues up to the roof continues along the addition that just infills where that brick wall is and that L is about 390 Square F feet um they didn't want any rais roofs um they thought it was more par more particularly correct with the style of the house just to continue that on and so that's what's been doing there was some detailing corn but um essentially an extension we thought uh I think the in addition to the difficulty in the very narrow 1800 stairs um we actually felt it was a better condition to put that bedroom in that little NOK and I'll show you why in a second rather than trying to extend um a roof line that didn't exist over either that connector space or over the garage which would not have increased building coverage but it would have been a much greater imposition to the neighbor behind if we go back to the area we'll see that um I've got neighbors that are directly behind us here in the backyard here and so the addition the decision was made that this was a much less impactful area to put that one story Edition in that little in that little crook where there an existing patio existing front yard patio is non-conforming we're eliminating a nonconforming condition of the front yard putting the addition there keeping it away from having to complicate the roof line or create more mass that would uh that would create some shade and Shadow onto the joining property so was really the most fining location to put it was where we showed it the um if we look at the uh just to go over the proposal one last section is um these I think I'm not a I'm I'm a planner and a engineer I'm not a landscape guy I think they're am a link here but um they're green stuff um and they do a good job of actually blocking um some of that little um plan or facade there um the the plan developed by Larry I'm Sorry by Barry Greenberg basically calls for uh in Li of that which actually does not have a good presence in the winter is to replace that with a mix of alternating hybrid rendin and androma those hyd hybrid Rod dendrin will grow up to be seven to eight feet tall so they'll provide some relief along that flat section they space so they don't block individual windows so they they'll help to break down that lad that was shown on second last so I won't get a pen out because then we'll have to mark it it but essentially those will come out and they will they will form Evergreen um branches that will grow 78 ft they'll grow as much as 8T in the base so they'll start to enen that facade there or or help to block that facade um it's funny because we had some plans of pushing that facade back TR to manipulate the roof lines HP wasc was pretty adamant that this was their preference because it was the most historically correct so um that's what we did we got the approval and we figure they're the they're the body who's probably um first and foremost besides this board expected to uh guard the character of the neighborhood so Tim basically so that's the um that's the landscape plan it's basically typical Foundation plantings uh except that we're going to add those red dendrin which will get a little more 78 ft height along the foundation replacing what I think are might be amular right there um amalan here don't do well over time um and they they uh they don't do well they don't provide any screening in the winter so that would be we think is a better alternative and will help to break down that massing the um so the relief we require from f is um 26% is permitted the existing is 24 a. half% we are proposing 28% so we're 2% over that's the 390 square feet that we're adding um I would point out in the R5 Zone not even the r six Zone I mentioned before the R5 Zone were 14,500 square foot lots are the minimum so we'd still be under that 30% f is permitted so uh 28% % is certainly not out of character with the era of this home and the location of this Home Building coverage 14% is permitted in the R4 Zone it's 1575 square feet the existing site is already over um at 20.6% um a lot of that is generated by that very generous wraparound porch which does amazing things to break down the mass of that house by creating that dious layer in the space um porches do wonderful which is why they're not part of f but they are part of building coverage but they really actually help to break down the mass of the building um 20.6 or 2327 ft exists we are proposing um a 390 square feet that same footprint bump um and that goes to 2717 or 24.1% so we are over by 10.1% um if we go back to that R six Zone 6,000 foot loss they they allow 23% building coverage and we have other extenuating circumstances so we're we're kind of we're in the neighborhood for lots that are expected to be about this size when when um when conforming the um lot coverage 35 is% is permitted in all the zones we are at um that's 3937 the existing house is 4560 and we're keeping exactly that 4560 which is 45 40.5% so there's no change or zero increase and again same with building coverage um uh lock coverage a lot of it's generated by the fact that we have um series of walk we have that generous wrap around porch and then on the back side they've Ted really the only entertaining space that's possible and that's a patio on the left side um but because it's quite long the house is quite long the driveway far by telling you to end up all the trainings coverage it's really generated the fact we're a corner lot an undersized corner lot it helps Drive the uh the total lock coverage well over what's existing but again we've balanced that so there's no net increase no net negative impact to the neighborhood no effect on drainage Etc and then finally as I said we need um a variance for the minimum front yard setback and that is where 40 ft is required technically um 19.78% like it was has been part of the house for a long time so as part of the um the planning um proofs obviously we didn't have an F variance that's an intensity variance that requires five affirmative votes um unlike commercial f um which is considered to be a metric of the intensity of use of a property a residential floor area ratio is used as a measure of the mass of the dwelling um and the Criterion for an F uh is addressed pursuant to the Randolph uh Town Center cas which follows Coventry Square all the legal precedence um that criter under that criteria the um the applicant must show that the site will continue to um accom accommodate the problems usually associated with a floor area larger than that permitted by ordinance without substantial detriment to the neighborhood and the usual problems with an F larger than what's permitted is overcrowding on the site loss of air light and open space along the neighboring properties and overwhelming the character or scale of the neighborhood um there's no hard criteria um I like doing F variances because they there is no hard criteria it's it's really a referendum on the existing architecture and the proposed architecture um and I've often said if you had three Architects you could all design houses with the same F and you could have three very different um looking houses if you had if you tore the house down you could actually design something that would probably come much closer maybe still in F but but certainly the goal was not to tear the existing house now but work with the the existing character of the home home um I've often said that a uh you know you can have three 200 lb men um they can all have a very different appearance um architect that I work with said basically the difference is whether you hit the gym in the morning or you hit the dut shop in the morning um but the reality is that 200 pounds May set off an alarm Bell and say we need to take a closer look at that and so we need an fa F variance which means we need to take a look at that um but does it overwhelm the neighborhood um and and really not to get hung up on the numbers and those numbers actually aren't that they're they're not that crazy certainly they're consistent with lots of of these sizes so the standard um for an existing dwelling becomes how well has the architect integrated uh the excess Mass into the structure so as to maintain uh the character of the neighbor we think that uh the architect has certainly done that um in the fact that uh he followed the hpc's the hpc's directive to integrate the mass into the existing home on the first floor uh the one story is consistent with the massing of existing dwelling the roof line mass mass matches both the wraparound porch and any past additions and its slope um and in the neighborhood where the adjoining homes are very close um to the Comm property lines this Loca location and configuration we felt was the least impactful on the surrounding dwellings so we think it meets the positive criteria and I'll do all the negative criteria in a second uh with regard to the um lot coverage building coverage and front set back we think it's a combination or can be approved under both C1 and C2 um the uh under um C1 4055 d70 C1 applies where the undersized nature of the lot along with the location of the and configuration of the lawfully existing dwelling creates a hardship in upgrading the existing property without the need for variance relief uh and a C2 um 455 d70 C2 known as the flexible C variant where the plan as proposed represents a better planning alternative than one the one that might conform or come closer to formity um and this is this uh this applies when the purposes of the land use actor Advanced and the benefits resulting from the deviation outweigh any detriments um the um the benefits are generally considered when you advance the purposes of the land use act at 4055 D2 we think that we advance two sections of that section a uh is general welfare is that we are contemporizing the home with regard to the amenities uh that many people seek in in uh the current age um and we're eliminating a front yard patio which brings the site closer into conformance with the zoning ordinance uh we're also uh ensuring air light and adequat space the to the adjoining properties um and we are also preserving uh conserving an historic home um by both making an addition that um meet hpc's guidelines as well as we are um through the township committee's approval and hpc's hpc's approval we also um repairing the uh the gate at the front entrance the um we think that the location of the addition is better than a two-story increase in the massing which would have negative impact on the neighbor 165 Hobart which is right behind us I showed you earlier the um we think that the existing facade line triggers the 9inch deviation from the average setback so we're just keeping existing we extend along we end up with a n inch deviation from the average something like a 30 20 some deviation from the 40 foot um but we think again the benefits of of maintaining that outweigh the detriment with regard to the negative criteria we see that there's no substantial detriment to public good the architect again worked with HPC to yield a home that is architecturally cohesive um to the original and feels appropriate to the site um and again as I said HPC is the body that we look for first and foremost in the Short Hills and the Wyoming District uh to give us guidance on ensuring that any modifications to these grand old houses within our community are consistent with the neighborhood and done in a manner that's respectful of the age of the home uh we also think there's no substantial detriment to the um no substantial impairment to the master plan um we think that uh um there's nothing inconsistent I'm not going to go through all the sections I think why we're consistent but there's nothing I could see that was inconsistent um this uh proposal allows for the Improvement of the dwelling without impacting the scale or character of the neighborhood um and we believe um with Daniel's law I can't always get um accurate um building coverages anymore um or FS anymore um because they've been tied to owners names um and I can't without serving I can't get I can't uh I can't get surveys of these properties though I have done a few but I think that um just surveying the um the overall survey and looking at other coverages patios Etc we feel that the uh the amount and extent of the F building coverage and lock coverage relief is actually similar to others on the street and we think certainly the location will have no negative impact happy answer any questions in terms of floor area and building coverage right so those are the biggest y deviations um regarding those other properties in the R4 that you said are are more like R six um did he did he do a review to determine whether there are similar deviations for building coverage in f i um as I said I I could not get um I couldn't get the um Property Data records for um all these buildings but let me see I think I've got um um I know that um across so we're looking for a 28% you're looking for 28% F and 24.1% I know the house at uh 10 Windam was denied an F variance where they had uh existing was um something like 52.9 and they were looking go to 53.4 so those are numbers that are double RS that's for f that's for f yeah that's from uh that's from the resolution for Victor and gret alander uh calendar number 36949 from October 2019 that was their third um separate application that was a denial on the F requested um and the for the board's edification the significance is not so much that the application was denied but that the existing f is yeah the existing dwelling was 51.9% and they were going up and I know if you bear with me I think they had similar um I think they pretty extension building coverage variants too but um yeah I don't have the numbers they were 37.8% uh loot coverage um because they took some patios up I don't have the exact numbers but I know their F was um even though it was denied their existing F was was almost double ours off the start so again um not a whole lot of hard data available except for the R by resolution for Lot 10 but in looking and walking in the neighborhood and doing some other surveys some of the Lots as you get to the end get actually quite large although they're impacted by Wetlands quite a bit as you get the Terminus of uh the the West Terminus of wind they get to be large but I guess they're impacted by Wetlands as well so although I don't think they were thinking about the wetlands back in the 1870s but um so but in the in the sort of micro neighborhood of the Lots um that form the entrance into Windom I think we're similar on building coverage similar on lot coverage and we're actually under what they are in terms of how many homes we talking about that have access from window um I believe there are are um four five 9 11 12 um actually 14 starts with one 14 actually minus two so there are 11 lots that have Frontage on there the one with the 51% F that you mentioned across from the applicant's home is that similar size or large size is it that one is actually just about 6,000 feet so we're bigger than that we're at at 50 something so if you count the fact that we're we're about double that um that means you know our our square footage is our our f is probably something in terms of raw numbers is probably something very close let me see if I can get that for [Applause] yeah their their house um as it as it exists on a site that's half our size they're 312 square feet and as proposed we're 3148 so Within 45 feet of each other but again we're on a site that's half the size so the homes are the proposed F in terms of sheer numbers is about what exists right across the street in our proposed condition is roughly analogous to what exists there today which is we're on a on a site that's nearly double a size Rich you said the historic preservation committee um said that you should maintain that setback right not you would said you mentioned something about stepping it back but they prefer to keep it out yeah that was my first comment to him can't we set that back a foot and Jog it or put a jog go one foot back two foot over come back and he said we we tried all that with HBC and this was their preferred and this is what they approved and so that impacts the setback and also the F yeah because we looked the first reason was to set it back a foot just at least match because so we're we're going nine inches closer than what exists now if you set it back a foot you wouldn't have increased that ex exacerbated but HPC that was their preference so I will say sometimes when HPC says they want us to be historically correct I ask where the ouse goes but I get myself in trouble so um yes are you losing some windows it looks like when you're adding this from the I don't know what room that is but by adding this are you losing some windows on that one side um yeah the family so in your opinion what is driving the F because obviously you're it's existing it's it's compliant and but now you're 2% it's just not it's not the porch yeah I mean it's it's um the fact that you know if the original house had been more compact if if the garage had been brought in um with with some of the this new bedrooms over the top of it it could have been more compact so you're dealing with you know what was a probably on a much larger home before the Windom subdivision um and so it kind of ran on with a you know an attractive two story Farmhouse wraparound porch that gave away to you know on story um low slung buildings to the back and again um if it was done today you know they probably would have tried to you know do a for a garage under good perk up there you could have picked it out for the garage under there has a number of things they would have done to try to incorporate this garage but we're dealing with the existing flip print we're dealing with exting um hbac existing stairway so really there's no way to add some think to the first floor any of the second floor would have really killed a lot of those roof lines on the back of the building so to take a bedroom put up there even to try to find an elevator spot um would have um would have kind of destroyed all the roof lines and this house comes into the back it means one the decision was made pretty quickly and I think HBC um um reinforced the fact that they did not want to see a vertical addition um because would further we are losing some windows on the back of the uh family room here but um I think it all in all it's a better composition I think the first floor is Miss is has an extra about 300 square feet of I think it's almost like all of this area is a little bit wasted space if I look at this plan like if we could this area all of this runs along the right side forms a circulation Corridor along the living room and dining room so that's kind of traditional of of a historic home to have that circulation spot that comes back into the kitchen in a contemporary home that would have been probably condensed um and uh the stairwell Incorporated differently and much of that mudro um could have gone away and been brought back into either an unad situation where you go through the dining room you create a second passage wall in the dining room the living room so there's you got another stair so there's a number of things that are Tim and I did go over earlier but Tim just said they're Way full in the existing home but um and again I think today you probably wouldn't see it doesn't affect the F but what kind of collapses that all and is that very generous porch these days you know we're lucky if we get a six six foot porch this is more like an fo P half P so much more D so it's that combination of the historic um floor plan as well as the porch that all kind of adds pressure and probably is wasteful on some of the square foot edges and an old home you really can't start taking away the T it's very difficult to start ripping out circulation corridors as stairways uh HVAC without having a net negative impact on the structure and the lck coverage is you're just maintaining what's existing yeah we're over but we're maintaining exactly well we're we're picking we're Le five foot square foot less actually okay because there's a lot of patios but it doesn't matter yeah they're T they're existing tucked in the back how many bedrooms do you have current second you guys how many bedrooms two noral bedrooms um and two small in the Attic So basically two normal sized bedrooms and the second floor then the third floor there's another staircase and it's like an attic two small little and the roof is landed and yeah if you're very tall you can two regular SI bedrooms two regular size and then two very small so so there's either there's four existing bedrooms which makes this the fifth in terms of usable bedrooms there's two are making the third but there but technically if you count the two small bedrooms with the lacking the the ceiling height um that's four plus one is five or as we said in in for real people not leuan people um you've got two um two regular and one on the first floor that makes three question can you see this addition or will you be able to see this addition from no um you technically could if you when the amalan years come down you'll be able to see the addition with the amalan years in place you you won't but once we put the proposed vegetation back in I think you would actually have to start driving up Windom to be able to see this addition otherwise the proposed Landscaping is going to block that um certainly in perspective so as you drive by um on Hobart you will not you will not see the current um infill or the extension uh for the 390 Square F feet they'll kind of be covered by Landscaping but if you turn if you turn up you will the s any other questions any questions from the audience any comments um okay I'm going to close the public ver one one thing I would ask um before we close public um since it is a d variance we would love to get maybe some input or hear the board's testimony on their opinions on the f last testimony your opinions on the on the F maybe in the STW vote so we so we know if if if you want us to go back and try to change something we can would me going back tobc but we'd certainly love to see a B for c v thank you ask just one question sure yeah so this addition that we are creating how close is this to the nearest neighbor uh I know it's in line with the that side of the home but just curious hopeing I have my failure so from the addition to the neighboring house is approximately 60 feet so the closest part from the addition to the neighboring house is this house is actually C of got a long planer back back wall at a patio um there's a little bit of a parallax view but I would say um it's between 58 and 60 ft from addition to uh to the closest part of the adjoining house in a zone that you would normally see for one-story houses in the R4 you'd expect to have at least 30 feet of separation for twostory you want 44 feet of Separation so we've got some 60 58 to 60 feet of separation and in terms of the house on the other side of is that probably the same at yeah so um to the other house to the covered porch we've got about uh 65 um about 65 ft and all all of the other homes as I said are are considerably last you know you've got an existing home to the cover porch that is 10 ft off the line uh that is uh 15 ft off the line so it's a neighborhood that um was built long before we had 40 foot set back from on thank you okay so public version is closed and i' like to hear some comments from board members I'll go first um first of all so such a Charming house and what a what a cute neighborhood I made the mistake of going up with them and getting stuck up there so I'm like okay don't do that but so cute um when I saw the variances requested at first I I went Heek because it's a lot um but um it is a challenging lot I I agree with what you're saying that it's it's it's it's a narrow lot it's challenging I don't think this is going to impact neighbors there's no neighbors here tonight complaining or expressing concerns so I would be in favor of approving this application no I I would agree I would be supportive of the application I think actually think the requests are not particularly large um I think the the lot can handle that and I don't think that the addition would in any way materially add to the bulk of the house or make it look um out of character with the neighborhood so um you know I think it's it's Tastefully done and I think it um I don't think it creates any issues for the neighborhood or so so I would be supportive on and I would uh Echo those comments uh in addition to that I think this is our in our 4vc 20,000 of size which is normal and this is at about a little over half maybe 60% so from that perspective too if you were to take the proportion of 28 26% that's permissible you would fall probably close if not lower than what that would be permitted and given that this is historic uh it was built much before any of the new developments were done or newer developments were done I think this seems like it could work although the numbers seem pretty high I could be supportive right I can see this two ways I can see it the way that you all are saying and on top of that I could see I I I appreciate that uh that hpd's already weighed in on this plan that they like the way it's laid out and potentially this is it's nice not to have a patio in what is the front yard I can I so I see all of that and I could get on board with that on the other hand I can see that it's already significantly over a lot in building coverage and I think about well what's the reason for doing this and what happens in the long term with this and so the reason that was stated for doing this is because parents are coming up for a couple weeks to stay with you and I wonder is that reason that we typically grant for these kinds of f variances um and then it runs with the house permanently with the land permanent so I'm kind of like I'm not 100% don't really look well is there I guess is the hardship or some sign the hardship has nothing to do with the fact that you have your uh parents or in-laws coming in from Brazil That's My the so the is issue that has been presented is whether you can find for the applicant based on either C1 which is a hardship because of the existing conditions of the land or the existing structures that are on the property or under C2 where you're ultimately determining that the proposal represents a better zoning alternative for the property so this is better than if the applicant were to fully comply with with the ordinance which well you know depending on what they would come back with right you know and there was some testimony from Mr Keller and Mr clessie that basically said you know if you built up that you know maybe you would do a little bit better with the numbers technically but that it may not be as good for the neighborhood and and Visually well um maybe detriment yeah and I hear that and so maybe it it it doesn't further exacerbate I guess building coverage but it does probably still trigger an F variant right and with regard to the F variance U which is the D4 variance you know you're you're determining as Mr Keller stated whether the lot can accommodate the addition so you know right frankly and I tell that boards when you're driving by if if you look over and you were going to say o that seems like a lot for for that lot you know a lot of building for that lot right that sort of goes to you know what the intent of the of the f um regulation is which is to prevent you know as Mr Keller said over massing my particular B so if I play that out further I'm thinking it through with you right now if I play it out further probably I would be on board with this because from that second perspective I don't think this I I think it's a good solution potentially if if we think this is the right thing to do but either way it's going to trigger variant and we have to make a decision yeah I mean another thing that you might want to think about is that you know not only are you you know taking a a non-compliant patio in the front yard and putting a one story Edition on it but you're also not doing something which is that you're not taking away from what's say backyard play Space right so you have to you know look at the lot you know how it's being functional you know both existing and proposed um so I'll I'll just say that I I know I think sometimes it does get confusing because we'll have applicants who come before us and they give us a reason for wanting to do something and we know as a board that we're not able to you know take that into account when we're making our decision but as R said said um you know just because the applicant says that doesn't mean that we're actually considering it so I'm the leaon um from the zoning board to the HPC and I had only kind of bagely remembered this um one from you know from you know my role on HPC so I went back to see the house today and you know I think that we see a 2% F and without looking at the structure you know I think we you know our first instinct is that's kind of big but um I know for myself when I went and I looked at it um because it's being built over what's already you know like a non-conforming um patio it's it's tucked away so I think driving by walking by you know getting out of my car walking by I don't think that we're going to have any massing um problem here so I would be comfortable um approving the f as well as um all the other um variances that are needed and again I know that you know sometimes there's like that push and pull with historic structures and needing to keep it um you know working historically um but also making it practical for you know Modern Family who's who's living there so I think that the applicant has done a really good job with that um and I'd be happy to support it so would you like us to proceed with a vote yes please okay um would anyone like to make a motion a motion to approve the application I second great should we uh divide it up with it break it off with the F or um I think I I think that based on the um the comments I don't know if you really you can if you want to but unless the applicant has a preference on that okay all right we'll we'll proceed with yeah with speaking it all together Joseph callfield yes shandre yes Amy lence yes Gary Rosen yes Regina Truitt yes Priscilla Sur yes Jessica GL yes thank you thank you thank you so ching we're gonna take that two minute e e e e e e e e e okay officially hand you s from testimony about to G you the truth false truth nothing the truth I do name for the record yeah Douglas Miller from ahm Architects located at 281 Main Street Milburn New Jersey been practicing architecture since 1995 been licensed since 2000 my license is in good standing I made numerous presentations to discard as well as you were you were deemed accepted as an expert in of architecture when we were last when the applicate was last before board on October 7 202 correct correct yes we're uh returning uh after listening to all the board's comments last month and we've made some adjustments I'd like to go over those this evening okay uh so we considered all the feedback that you gave us and said how can we really pair this down to be the bare minimum to achieve my client's goals while minimizing the degree of variance relief required so I submitted some revised plans and as you can see uh we were asking for five variances last month four C variances and One D variance we eliminated all four C variances and we only are now asking for the D variance um we could not eliminate the D variant because of the existing non-conformities on this property so anything we did uh any modification to the house would require a trip before this board uh to request variance uh D variance relief for FL Flor area ratio um so let me walk you through the drawings uh this first sheet shows all the the new numbers um what we've done you sub to the just identify here yes the date of the revised plans the sheet number correct uh this is sheet A1 of a revised set of drawings dated 10314 uh and it's in titled for Zoning Board of adjustment comments so uh the main changes uh as you look at the uh proposed site plan on the far side of the sheet we've eliminated the rear good on occupied variants and the lot coverage variants by uh eliminating the basement walk out that we had previously as well as the path that connected that to the driveway so uh the building coverage variance was elated since we are no longer changing the building coverage at all uh we also eliminated the side yard setback which was along the left side of the property uh we were uh building up directly on top of an existing non-conforming first floor Edition so we've pulled that second floor Edition in a little over three feet to have the conforming 12 foot sidey yard setback and by bringing that side yard setback into 12 feet uh it's it's thus eliminated the side yard combined variance as well because the total sidey yard is now conforming uh those were the main changes to the site plan uh if we move on to sheet a two uh the first floor plan proposed and existing remains unchanged uh we're only renovating an existing sun room sheet A3 um this is where the change happened at the rear uh there's an existing roof deck at the rear of the property that goes that's approximately 8.2 feet from the property line going across to the center line and that's directly on top of the sun room I just mentioned uh what we're proposing to do is add a small study at the rear it'll be a flex base to use for different functions since it is only a really a three-bedroom uh house on this lot needed a little bit extra space so what we've done is built over the interior portion of the sun room towards the left side property line creating a room that is approximately 10 fo n by 1410 uh and that adds to uh the floor area ratio thus requiring the variance um we previously requested a floor area ratio variance of 42.6% or 3,196 ft where 30 36% or 2,695 was uh is allowed We R reduced that to 42% or 3,149 we are requesting an increase of the existing non-conforming uh floor area ratio of 2.4% or 180 square feet uh which is really a small amount uh for this home and uh so it's a total deviation of 6% or 454 Square feet uh unfortunately uh the planner that was with us last month unexpectedly was not able to join us this evening but all his uh Len's testimony that he presented last month still stands and I just wanted to kind of reiterate a couple things and and talk about the variances in general um so I really think that our site can accommodate the added Mass I think the the planned addition being constructed over exist in footprint is not negatively impacting the neighboring homes by pulling the side yard setback in we have conforming setback so we won't be looming over the neighborhood and we're also taking a roof deck which can really be a source of frustration to have somebody up on the second floor looking over into your yard over your landscape screening um where the noise can clearly travel uh when people are out there talking in the evening taking that space that already exists and converting it to Interior Space um which will add a lot more privacy but also add more functionality and usefulness to this home um you know the the metric is as we go by the Rob's zon test if you drive by the house and you go oof that site cannot handle that bulk um and I think that's something I showed last month uh with my testimony and this was exhibit A1 was a photo board that I had put together and we had already put that together this is uh some neighborhood photos no there's no changes no changes exact same exhibit as last time and you can see if you drive through that neighborhood the nice thing about uh historic towns and towns that have developed over time is there's a variety of architectural forms and styles you might have some lung Cape Cod style house or cottage style house like our own which is here on the upper leftand corner those houses in conjunction with more traditional two-story Colonials or maybe more contemporary homes give a a mixed fabric to the community and takes away from that tracked home development that a lot of houses you see in other neighborhoods that were all say built in the 1950s or all all in the 1920s where every house looks the same and the South Mountain section was all really developed at the same time but the houses have been tweaked and modified and the planners who put that development together used a variety of different floor plans and scaled houses and so when you look at our house it really looks a lot smaller um than other houses that are on this page that are conforming so you know this house here is conforming for everything where this house would be have a greater degree of variation of deviation for f are and when you drive by what we're proposing here is behind the main Ridge line of the house you cannot see it it does not impact the community as a whole at all and one other thing we did just going back to our drawing uh is the rear elevation the board had commented last time that they thought the roof line was too tall and would be you know looming over the neighborhood so what we did here at the rear it's just this small area is what we're asking for the floor area variance we really lower the roof down as much as possible just to shed the water at the minimum pitch required by um the shingles that go on the roof so we couldn't really shrink this down any more than we really are without eliminating it completely so in this case the P perceived scale of the house is really what the metric is you know can the site accommodate the added bulk and my my feeling is yes because when you drive by you're not even going to know that the bulk has changed whatsoever and because we're maintaining a really attractive low slung house it's really enlivening and enriching the neighborhood where if we didn't have the style house which really has a very compromised second floor even though it does contribute to F these bedrooms are very awkward they're very small they're very awkward uh hard to furnish and use you know we're not ripping off the entire second floor of this house building up another story and a half to create a two and a half story home we're maintaining the original Carriage style or cottage style of the house which you know I think is a plus that's it's quite a contrast to a lot of the other houses that you see going up throughout the South Mountain section which is really changing the feel and the the texture of the neighborhood which there's nothing wrong with it but it does change it and I like to have a mix of styles of house and in this case I think our my client is being very sensitive asking for a modest increase in F to accommodate the needs of a growing family so I think overall the benefits that we are proposing here outweigh the detriment the changes uh increase the usefulness of the home improve the housing stock uh maintain the light air and open space and you know it's conforming to all the requirements of the zone so I don't think what we're proposing here is a detriment to the master plan so want to thank you for your time and open it up to any questions can you speak to your um who would be affected view wise you know like back rear neighbor next door neighbors what what you know what they're looking at from from the area that's can be seen since as you said no one is going to notice it from the street view right yeah and then from the sides and the rear there's a lot of mature foliage I think you can see from the aerial photos that were uh presented by our planner at the last last uh meeting there's a lot of mature uh uh trees between the two properties some of the other neighboring houses to the left and right already have large additions that go out to the rear um so I feel that what we are doing here is very consistent with the massing of the houses on the neighboring lot so we are preserving the light air in open space and what we're doing here I don't think is going to negatively impact the neighbors because we are conforming uh through all the setbacks I think it would be helpful to the board BAS on I just went my notes as to some of the concerns in the last hearing can you just show the board the difference in terms of the rear because that was what the concern was I think at the time of course between what was being proposed then and what is currently being proposed yes I have the drawings that we presented last time uh so if we move to sheet I believe it's page five which is the previously proposed rear elevation yeah just do a comparison so I think the strongest uh comparison is to the rear at the bottom here I pointing to the previous submission you can see the the bottom is the prior submission correct the bottom is the prior submission I'm looking at the rear elevation and the rear elevation shows the area where we are building where the roof deck was present recy you can see the addition comes up all the way to the left side property line um going with a vertical intensification of that existing nonconformity where you can see at the top which is the proposed drawing dat 1031 we're pulling that in over three feet now to bring the that wall of the house much further away from the property line and we've also decrease the perceived mass of it and actually the physical mass of it by taking that roof line and rotating it down and making it much lower so that way you know any light and Shadow uh impacts will be greater more greatly reduced so it's a quite a contrast if you look between the before and after of what we had proposed last time and now we've really paired it down to the absolute minimum and you removed one of the windows I see and we've removed one of the windows as well so again creating more privacy for the Neighbors s is in that area yes and how much was it in the prior time because I presume by taking 3 ft in you have reduced it right the addition must have been more it was over I think 200 and uh 227 I believe that's come down to 180 right for that addition correct the VAR prior time must have been more than 6% I presume must I think it was about 6.6% there's three bedrooms total right yes correct yeah so when we did a neighborhood analysis there's quite a few homes that have four bed bedrooms three bats some actually have six bedrooms and six bats but it's really hard to get data points to compare and contrast degrees of deviation you know our planner had testified last time that look through tax records and when you really try to dig into them it's very hard to get a consistent uh uh square footage some include the garage some do not include the garage you know we have an existing two-car garage at the rear and that eats up a lot of floor area ratio um which does not contribute to the livable portion of the home so you know although we did not create that garage that's existing on the site and prevents a a challenge to you know getting the square footage that brings the house up in line with the usable square footage that other houses may have that could in fact be conforming so just to clarify it is nonconforming as it exists currently 39.6 is the which is not conforming corre so you're exacerbating at really just 2.4% from existing exactly yeah only 2.4% thank you on the prior uh sheet uh drawings did we have an optional elevator as well yes okay is that a serious option it is a serious option because of the awkward floor plan and the way that the house is currently arranged there was no good way to have somebody come up the staircase um and access that space from the first floor so our idea is that if it needed to be used for another function without disturbing the family in the primary bedroom room somebody could come up and use that room whether it's a home office a study room or a guest bedroom all those things are possible by having that optional elevator and that's something that my client is seriously considering to add functionality without increasing the floor area by creating hallways and other circulation or taking away from the already small bedrooms that exist on the second floor right but so to that point although this is labeled study it could be other things yeah I I testified last month that it's really a flex space um they're going to primarily use it as a study but they do have family that comes in in visits and they need a space that they can use as well um their kids are growing and the bedrooms are small so it could be a bedum per kid there's there's so many different uses for it and when you have a small house like we do you know every square foot matters there's no attic that you could use for storage or for another function uh so you know that's why we're we're kind of developing it the way that we are any other questions from board members so what is what sorry you mentioned this but just to clarify what is the tree line or what is the Shrubbery that's in back of the so that would that would Shield the view from actually there are some trees in the back um most of the trees are not on our property but other properties do you know what kind of trees they are they Evergreen there's a mix of deciduous and evergreen trees and how far are you the [Applause] closest how close are you to the closest neighbor from the back of your yard to someone else's house um I guess whatever the yard is I would say over 80 feet over 80 feet from the addition proposed addition to someone else's res correct yes thank you um do we have any questions from the audience any comments from the audience don't see any don't hear any so I will close the public portion again this is an variance votes you heard last time about the Leal criteria posi and we only considering take only one vote um so would anyone like to start all right I'll go no one else wants to go um so thank you for making all taking our uh comments into consideration and for making so many modification actually came down by variances because the setback was two um and um while it still looks a little bit of big massing to me quite honest I think that you wouldn't be able to do anything else without exorbitant expense the neighborhood is modest I drove around so again love that part of Milburn Township and um it's only well say only it's a it's a relatively modest ask over compared to what it was for with 2.4% over existing which is also nonconforming so taking all that in consideration I think if you don't do this then you can't really do anything because of the size of the lot and problems can I request that we open up for another question we um I just I don't have my full packet here from the last time was there any other prior variances granted for this piece on that application no the owner had purchased the house this way and I looked through the records I did not see any variance really prior thank you I would also be in favor I think um done a good job yeah I think the changes taken the suggestions and appreciate that and I think this although it is higher on the f as it stands and you know further exagerating it um I believe the ask is U not a lot and I could be supported of the application yeah I'm strugling with this one a little bit um but I do I mean I certainly appreciate the work that we've done to eliminate the other variances um and uh I said the last application not sure in terms of the amount of the overage on F super material I do agree with some of the earlier comments that I think you know the nature of the property and uh in the home that it would be difficult to do anything else and is home so I can't say I'm thrilled but I could support it I will Echo that I not thr but support this thank you I was trying to put it into word St I guess I can do I find this optional elevator strange um especially because you can walk off the deck in the sun room this and I just wonder what is that potentially become but guess not it's all internal well you close it up and you go up an optional elevator you mean if you go use the deck entrance as your individual entrance for next you walk off the back into onto a deck and into a sunro and then you go upstairs an elevator so potentially you walk in and out from the backyard into elevs um yeah I'll I'll say I'm still very mixed about this application um I do appreciate you coming back and removing basically all the variances except the F at the same time you know if those could have been removed right from the start you know it's it gets a little tricky with like well you know then do we you know give applicants of award for you know getting rid of things that clearly didn't need to be there in the first place um I you know I do think that the trickiest thing here is that you're already over um and you now need more um you know you need to go over more um and you know really can can the property um handle this kind of massing um and I'm just I'm still mixed about it I'm I'm I I understand getting rid of like closing off this deck I'm not a huge of you know second second floor you know twostory decks where as you said you're looking out into your you know neighbors's property especially in properties where you know they're relatively close together but I don't know then if the tradeoff is if we close it off you know are we you know is it is the massing going to be too big I mean I guess the the thing that works in in your favor is that this is all in the backyard so really no one is seeing this um from the streets Cape from the front and it is a heavily um you know uh wooded area with with a lot of coverage from trees their neighbors are still pretty far away um I'm still mixed about it so with that being said would someone so before we do that um would the applicant nevertheless like the board to take a formal vote understanding that if the vote is not in the affirmative you don't get the five affirmative votes it would be denial or statutory denial and then to proceed further to avoid rest AATA that you would need to have you know some what I'll call meaningful modification can I have one minute to confer with my client two all right thank you all right I think we'll we'll take the risk and and go for a vote can go for a vote okay so the board understands that this is a a vote exclusively for Flor ratio varant which will correspond affirmative votes for an approval um so that being said would someone like to make a motion move to a group second Joseph Coffield yes shandre harjani yes Amy Lawrence yes that sounds like a category for Gary Rosen yes Regina truid yes Priscilla s yes Jessica GL no all right thank you very [Music] much first yes [Music] some [Music] [Music] okay next up we have um calendar 41-24 um the location is 110 hopeart Avenue retach and from testimon I do your name for thees sh hi thank you very much for the time uh my name is R Shri we've been residents for the last four years uh we're looking to just build a sun room on an existing structure our existing deck in the back of the house um so not looking to extend anything just build a sun room um you know glass sun room on the back to use it space all year round do do you have any anyone with you yeah Bri here us you s from testimony about to give tonight the truth about the truth I know yes your name for the my name is Brian Adams uh my address in New Jersey Jersey is 1624 um that's my home address well I do apologize 1199 Route 22 in Mountainside uh my home address is 1624 Northwest 31st Place Cape Coral in Florida uh I'm the technical director um for the sunro company that hope to build this uh sun room for Mr M Chow um what we're here for tonight is uh a side yard and a combined side yard setback um the first thing which is their hardship uh if you look at the property survey it's an extremely narrow lot very long I think it's 3177 and it's like only a 60 foot width which makes it hard to do anything um as far as the um side yards there are two two um variances that we're requesting one is for um a side yard singularly and a combined sidey yard now the house itself is already non-conforming and where we're going to be building on it's in line with the existing house I think it's 6.6 feet uh which the existing house is 6.6 feet on the other side of that area where we're doing it's 30 ft away from the right hand side but we have to go by what's there at the moment so it's the two um extremely narrow side yard setbacks uh it's going to be excuse me a long flight today to get up here because my architect was going to come here today but he had a a problem with his wife so last night I booked a ticket and come down I didn't want to leave them in the Lurch um so we intend to build it on a very very wellb built substantial base um there's already a set of uh steps exiting it so there's no new steps nothing uh new other than we're going to insulate the flooring but it wasn't insulated because it's a deck an open deck and we're going to do some covering on the tops and plywood um the left and right hand walls are going to have privacy walls uh 2 feet high on the front elevation which faces the rear of the garden it's going to be glass nealls um it's going to be a gable roof um with an apex and uh which follows on the existing structure and it's going to have shingles on top of that to match in with the existing I'm welcome any more questions if I haven't covered everything just clarifying so it looks like your existing usage is the same as your proposed usage so your variances are exactly in line with what you've got currently yeah it's what it is Al although the the sun room is is to one side 30 ft away we have to go by what's existing add them two numbers up so you're not exacerbating any of the current conditions I'm sorry can you just repeat what you said about what the walls are going to look like for the sunro yeah on the sun room walls I mean we're not doing glass on the bottom we're doing um uh solid panels White panels they're thermally efficient panels in there so you don't get that it cuts it up a little bit without having it all glass so is that so I'm referring to drawing number one submission correct yes one second yeah drawing number one that's given you yes an all around um perspective of it yes yeah if if you look at that and the the left hand wall all those bottom panels there will be solid white uh High efficient panels uh and then the front of the lower parts will be glass then there's a patio door sliding door to the right that opens up onto the existing steps uh landing and then the steps going down and there'll be panels at the top on the Apex yes yeah that big glass there yes what what are your the survey shows that there's concrete steps immediately to I guess that's the east on the survey did you say yeah Lot 24 the next door lot that look like there some sort of enement there what what do those steps go to uh they they're being removed the the steps on the adjacent property are being removed oh no no no I I I to be honest I don't know what they are um this is on the yeah it's on no I have a picture what are what are the steps for that's an emery I think it's just it's just a slope that basically just going down into their into their backyard yeah uh I don't you got this wa wait wait can all speak could I pass this around so you why don't we why don't we Mark that Mark it up A1 what is what is that you that's a picture of the existing rear elevation which shows you from the side angled and it shows you exactly where excuse me uh and I've put a pen mark on it to show you where the roof's going to go so you can see well lower than the existing um room above it so if I could pass this around to view so can I a question um I see e ask a question here what is the overall height of the structure going to be H yes I don't I did answer that put it on there I'm terribly sorry no worri um it's a variable because the grade pitch away drastically as you're viewing it from the back side of the uh the property it's the room itself itself is 10t to the Apex then it's only a 4 foot uh that that's 14 feet but it it goes down to about 18 plus because it the grade that's why they built that big concrete wall on the right hand side there as a retaining wall because the grades a lot higher on that side Okay so so the range will be between 14 and 18 okay thank you and is this a previous variance for this yes we found that out yeah obviously was before that they bought the property um 2011 I believe was very good and to let let us know that so um yeah but that was a similar thing for S setback and they they built that uh addition behind it so so was that variance they built the deck that you now want to put the sun room on correct the dimensions of this sun room the dimensions of the sun room sorry if you mentioned it already the dimensions of the sun room yeah the one which exists and which you're doing the sun room you might want to look at your drawing 07 yeah now 07 that's that's a side elevation there should be a plan view that well there we go yeah that's 1682 has theion yeah2 that's the plan view yes so overall that's um 219 uh that's 168 projection um I do apologize it being in inches I know you want it in feet so um can I just 14 ft is the projection but the width is a little bit more than that so that's what the existing structure is and that's what was approved yeah pass that phot um can you uh discuss a little bit about uh the neighbors what they're seeing Yes actually you can see in that picture there this house is set further towards the rear you see the other house next door is set further towards the straet view so that's quite quite considerably back and it's uh back even further from where they had the first edition of we're going in front of that what on the other side um that we're 30 ft away from that neighbor on that side although the existing properties nearer where we're building is 30 ft away to the property line I was there yesterday there's a the ne were to to the right which is lot 26 has a garage actually that sits right about a foot away from our boundary in our backyard is that right yes so that the neighbors's building is in our space Essen and I guess the the survey that shows paper patio is not really a patio it's part of Drive D it is yeah it sends from a drive in and sort of that's how we get to the garage in the back yeah it's the ashev driveway on to the right of that and um the p ptio is a continuation of that and uh and goes up to where the um area is where the sun Mo hopefully goes so does it the reason why I asked for the photo is there a grill currently on the deck it is currently be on the deck yeah so you have a grill and you have some looks like some patio furniture correct yes right so what's happening with the grill if you get approval for this we haven't really used much we're mostly vegetarians so we've had a group but we not really used it a whole lot so it's going away and right now there's a car Bo underneath correct the deck yes is there any other intended use after you build the sun room or you will still use it as like multi-purpose yeah it's just used as a multi-purpose no no immediate plans to do anything there but it will be open cor you still have the pillars which are supporting the corre yes did I did I see is part of the prior approval that the air conditioning units were contemp to be underneath the deck thought I recall seeing that let me ask you the differ where the air condition uh they're on the side of the de on the deck so they're not under the deck currently they're sort of adjacent to it but yeah between us and the neighboring proper L what's the plan to strengthen the pillars because this is now going to be lot more R is going to be put up with all the class and the old structure you still have the same pills or I mean what sort of uh how do you strengthen the the weight that you're putting on oh that's all been calculated that's that's Overkill what they did there I mean they've got like a a 9 in solid concrete wall on the back and the peers are definitely Overkill and it normal in that situation to do 2x 10 it's been built with 2x 12 lum way way overp so there is wall on one side and it's open on correct yes as I said because of the other the grade on that side is a lot higher than the the left hand side so what they did they built that retaining wall a solid concrete it's not visible here just curious one second I don't know because I just picked this file up this afternoon no I think this is the same picture you've got there let me just look here uh I've got this one here um I can pass this one if you want to label this one as well this is uh on that where the grade's higher and it's showing some steps that are going to be removed so you can see there how the uh it's only about like um 3 and 1/2 ft four the the most why don't we Mark that as A2 on the topic of the pillars and the existing structures being able to handle the new weight of CHR FR will there be a structural engineer who evaluates this well the build the building inspector when the plans go through he'll he'll make sure that it can handle the extra weight yeah there's part and part of the architect sigining off on it I mean we you know I mean uh I wouldn't do it I'm a Layman is it when it I'm not a professional architect but I've been doing architecture work for in America for over 30 years so but Larry my AR as the last word he has to sign that his license is on the line so we're not going to cut corners on that we've had my site surve go out there and inspect it and dug some holes we're happy with that it is should the in should the inspector um from the township want us to do that which has happened before we're willing to do that you like A tes any other questions from can I see that 82 Mr CH the the picture that's going around is 82 would that be the the grill in the stairs that's on the left side corre of the property that's attached to the deck correct yeah we'll be taking that off it will be removed yeah because that brings it closer you 62 setback at that point it would be less but you're removing that um any questions from the audience sure why don't you come up I want to say something oh okay if you right now it's just questions do you have any questions I have something okay um anyone else with question questions okay you can come up for comments you need to be sworn okay do you sore from the testimony you're about to gight hearing the truth whole truth Nothing by the truth I do your name and your address and spelling your name okay to make things my name easy for you okay why don't you say it also so can you spell it please j i n g c h a n g and what is your address ma'am 106 HB Avenue where's your property in relation to the just next door NAA are you are you law 24 or yes yes yes is the white fence your fence okay go ahead okay I got some photos to show you but I'm sorry I only made made the five of the so please sh hold on a second hold on a second what we need to do you let me see what you have there okay I'm just trying to make it easy for everyone okay okay these these are all different same just the inside of four of them each Okay because I'm going to talk about that so that's okay so so if they're all the same let me have one of them okay me have one of them yeah so what we're going to do is we're going to mark one of them we're going to call this 01 okay okay and we're going to have it with a date so when you refer to this packet you're going to refer refer to it as 01 consisting of looks like four pages yes okay so why don't we give this one to eileene so she has that and so you can go ahead and start handing out we're gonna keep one right right by by us and then and okay good evening my name is Jin s and my husband Steven Wong and I own the house at 106 hot Avenue Shaw Hills we have lived in our sweet home for more than 24 years and we've we have been good neighbors in our neighborhood on the hobot Avenue our next door neighbor resides at 110 Hobart Avenue the family move moved in this house about 4 years ago on behalf of my husband and myself I'm thankful for the opportunity to present our formal objection to the proposed building of a sunlo at the house of our next door neighbor unfortunately my husband is traveling so he is unable to attend this hearing our objection to our next door neighbors proposal proposal is based on the following reasons the first one number one the concern for our privacy photo one shows the size and the location of the two lots 106 and 110 photo two shows wait wait wait wait before before we get to photo two yeah with regard to photo one it looks like that this is taken from a portion of a tax map is that accurate this I guess when where where where are these dimensions and lot lines from this when I purchased the house the Lota gave gave to me but I can show you my property uh survey I that's okay I just wanted to know where the information came from that's on your on the first sheet of 01 so you're telling me you got that yeah from the realtor yeah okay when I put your how house 24 years ago they give to me okay and it shows different dimensions and it looks like your lot which is Lot 24 has a lot width of 60 feet similar to Lot 25 correct I guess so okay okay and 52 ft okay go ahead okay the number one the concern for our privacy photo one 01 shows the size of this I already read photo two shows the back of our house relative to our neighbor's house as they show photo two their house extends past our house by 12 ft their sunnd deck extends another 16 feet making the end of their house 28 ft past our house the sun room will cover the sun deck that is at the back of their house photo three provides a view of the narrow distance between the two houses and the reason for our objection We Believe the sun room will reside in close proximity to our house and the face into our back rooms and the backyard causing a substantial loss in privacy this was significantly decreased the market value of our house number two the concern for the Westside View and the Sunshine we believe the building the structure will block our west side view and afternoon sunshine to our back rooms and the backyard especially in winter when we purchased our home 24 years ago we knew the lot was narrow but we like the wide open backyard that connected houses at one 106 110 and 114 hobot that was like a wide open gorgeous park with for sun all day long my husband and I are both retired seniors we spend most of our time in our home or outside in the backyard we really enjoyed enjoyed beautiful view and the sunshine in our backyard unfortunately as shown in photo four our neighbors changed this View and the feeling when last spring they installed a 64 T white PL plastic fence this change has been very depressing for us now we are faced with the proposed sunro which will further change the view for our backyard and the brought the afternoon sunshine to our back rooms and the backyard this will damage our property value in summary both the loss in privacy and the blocking of the Westside View and afternoon sunshine will negatively impact the following the quality of our retirement life including our mental health and the number two the market value of our house I thank you again for allowing us to present our concerns and I hope you understand our concerns and make the sort for sort for decision to disapprove this proposal thank you thank you I have the property survey my hope you can see how close is it do you want to introduce additional evidence Beyond one1 you want to present an O2 oh when you say you have additional information that's the my property survey I brought that okay do you want to enter a copy of your property survey into evidence in this if you want I can tomorrow because it's a bigger paper I cannot make at home well no this is a public hearing and you need to oh actually I have something to show you I have I got something I have something I made a small copy which I I show why don't you show it to me first okay thank you this I do okay hold on so take a look at it this are I hold on so is what you just showed me a copy of your a portion of your survey and the there will be there I dra over there I didn't roast anything where did you look look here will be here how close this steps is in my property this is very close Okay so why don't we do this when don't we Mark since we've already talked about it we're going to Mark as 02 this is a portion of your survey yeah yeah property survey yeah right yeah okay why don't you show this to the board to the extent you want to okay and describe what it is okay how do I do that I do it here start over there this is our survey and this is a you know suppose this fence is on the board look how close this sun were you know and stick out and close to my house the reason I just said you know in the paper I said I think you guys might need the paper I you know you want that I just said the speech you want that is that your your narrative what you yeah yeah yeah you okay if you'd like to we'll mark that as 03 okay okay thank you thank you what is 03 03 is is um the witness's statement written statement where's where's O2 I just want to make sure we're not losing track of that okay that's now the boards okay M Shang is there anything else you want to say to the board no I'm done okay thank you you can ask question I have one question um as um Mr Simon pointed out there was a a variance granted for the deck back in 2011 you've been you were living there at the time did you object at that time actually you know M Mr Mrs uh Yang James Wang yeah yeah yeah yeah that time my husband and I very busy at work so there there was a hearing we didn't come because we were busy with the work and also the neighbors said they they had three kids they really need to expand so you so we kind of you know we didn't come and now we regret that really really regret we should have come you know okay that mean so do the current neighbors your current neighbors the applicants here do they use that do you see them using that deck currently I did hear that do they use the deck currently they uh they sometimes not but not I I'm just afraid when they build up the sun room they will stay there and they will see us I understand when they bu the sun room there'll be a sun room I'm asking now yeah and in the past they used that debt before they they W seeing why they will have a party right they will have a party that's question yeah what I'm trying to get to is not very often not very often okay I mean you you've said and I understand your argument that you know the um the creation of the sun room will um diminish your privacy yes but they currently have a deck yeah that they sometimes use has that do you feel that's diminished your privacy yeah still when they come I don't come to my uh outside room I have to stay inside good question for eile is there fence compliant yes okay thank you any other questions for the any member of the public including the applicant want to ask any questions from Miss CH go ahead I just have a small thing I mean U I've turned the um property survey round so you can see the north arrow on it and as we all know rises in the east sets in the west so the sun was is going to hit those properties all day long so there's going to be no diminishing of the Sun and not only that the sun room is dwarfed by the second story of the existing house so it's going to be inset there so it's not going to be overpowering at all and it was a good point you brought up about you know if you're on the deck standing there or if you're in the sunro standing there there going to be no difference on that and uh it was passed for the setback at that time you know so it's a small point but uh I don't think it will diminish the uh the sun and the Privacy the sun point so so is how can the sun be there all day I mean no yeah because where it rises it's going to fall on the house because if you look at the property so that's the north it's going to rise in this side it's going to travel in that direction so it's always going to be sh the sun on the rear of the property anyway you know and and this second level sorry as the sun sets as the sun set yeah you going yeah at the end of the day yes it's going to be possibly but the building that's there now is a lot higher than what we're we're build building it's like about another 15 feet higher than that the top of our roof you know so it's already going to be dwed you know and it's going to be no difference I don't I don't think on that is there any difference in between the floor of the existing patio or existing deck excuse me and the floor of post sun room uh what from the grade yes yes because is's a difference if you look at the um where the the neighbor's side is the grade is only about four feet then it slopes down to about um six or seven feet but is there any difference because the grade's not changing no correct no no difference in the gr all will there be any difference in called elevation between the floor of the existing deck yeah and the floor of the proposed sunro no difference at all got building directly on top of it so we're not ating at all no no any insulation yes the floor yes under the floor there's going to be insulation you're not building right on top of the deck there to be no no no we're going to be removing the decking there at the moment once it's enclosed we put in um R30 I believe uh in there and we'll be putting new plywood down and enclosing it on the bottom and the the the roof panels all insulated panels everything's up to coat the Sun so so the deck is coming down and then you're no the deck covering just like the deck boards all the structure is remaining there because it's a very very wellb built structure as I said before they're 2 by 12s when I build these much bigger ones I only use two w ends that's allowable so you're leaving the deck in place and you're building on top of it correct yes so it has to be a difference in the floor the no no no no no but but five Ines six in inch and a qu that's what the deck board is I'm taking that down but then I'm going to be putting 34 ply back on to it it's going to be half an inch difference okay thank yeah so it's a good point but no it's half just clarifying what Mr s thank you yeah you mention something about theet going down to six sevenet Which is higher the neighbor's home or the applicants the neighbor's home and if you saw where look at that other I believe we said it was A2 that um photograph I put in that's where those steps are that are going to be removed that is on I'm sorry I didn't get your name uh it's good lady here on her side because those steps are going to be removed and taken away that grade there's around about four feet yeah hence why there got that big solid concrete retaining wall there Mr Adam did I draw your attention to photo two of Mrs jang's handout yeah I didn't see this one can I it'll show the elevation she seems to be significantly lower right you back right where the fence line is your right that's a higher grade but her is a lot lower yeah lower yeah so her is sunk down lower yeah I'm grade okay the other side of the fence is four feet up to the um deck is at the moment okay but yeah you you're right they've got a retaining wall here much the same as that retaining wall is on the other side hold back this they built lower down into thanks can I can I ask you a question while you're here yes yes go to the m So currently you have um a deck and what happens with the water when it hits the deck fil I mean it's still impervious because it's got concrete on the lower port where they drive into so you know it's uh at the moment it it's um impervious well it's still going to filter through there through the deck boards currently but Sun would have gutters on it hold on sorry so the water currently because the surface as you just described is impervious right impervious impervious it's impervious CU because below the deck it's impervious so the water hits and just sort of sheet flows off yeah okay and under the current under the currently proposed sunro you have the roof and water hits the roof where's it going go it goes in it gutters each side of the Apex and on the down spouts on the splash blocks of the [Music] bottom and how does it flow out of the property with well it just goes on to the grade you know so I mean it doesn't it doesn't need uh channeling or away is it's not a substantial amount you know so so will it flow onto the neighbors into into their property since they're lower uh well no the house is lower but their grade is virtually the same if you have a look at the that picture they've got a retaining wall themselves so that grade there is virtually the same when I I guess yeah going down in the back here our grade goes down all the way for more than their grade actually yeah almost a a Hill Mini Hill going down to the backyard back yeah you have to be swor if you want to get testimony from testimony truth trth can you SAR the testim to get your name Chad um so we have a a gutter where the drain pipe goes all the way in the back so the gutter is right when you enter into a parking there is a gutter and then that lead there's a pipe that leads straight in the back so all the drain from the roof and everything leads to that drain to go goes to the back of your property okay so not into the next down thank you so it's not a splashboard it will go into a gut I'm sorry you said something that it' be a splashboard but it's actually I've not aware of that cuz I didn't do the S so it so then we we tie into that okay question the roof of the proposed sun room is going to be made of what they're called sips panels they're highly efficient uh compressed panel um they're in 32 in by whatever length uh you make them and uh they're much higher r value than a regular roof so they come up in uh panels 32 in wide are they metal or plastic or no it's it's it's um it's plywood on each side sand I call it foam it's not foam but it's a special formula that's comp under pressure and compressed so that's what gives it is high efficiency okay so it's foam so it's not asphalt it's not going to match the roofing and the rest of their house no no that that's that's the panel itself that we construct it with then we put Water Shield on top of that then we put the shingles to match the house Ro on top of that so there will be the exterior will be shingles shingles that will match the rest correct okay will that absorb noise like from rain or whatever yeah it will yeah but it's not it's not clear so in terms of sun shining through it won't shine through that the sun won't shine through the roof no okay because on the room so I guess I'm thinking that it might actually cut down sun to the neighbor a bit because Sunshine is currently signing shining on the deck and now there's going to be an impervious opaque Sur yeah the yeah yeah because uh you know yeah I understand what you're saying yeah so so I just want to say something to that so currently our deck is further out from the neighbor's property so if you see the picture the neighbor's property say stops right here the deck comes all the way here so sun falling has nothing to do with blocking neighbor's property because sun goes like that and when it goes even if there's a roof the neighbor's property is still way behind than where I'm standing where the current existing deck where the Sun is going to be do you think it'll create any Shadows on their property well there's already existing our you know my son's bedroom is already basically covering their property 100% so it's already covered the deck is do you think there'll be any new Shadows created by this like in terms of light I think you know it's a mass occupying space yes so so I so I I think that what the testimony that was just pre presented um was intended to demonstrate is that any shadowing of the neighbor's property wouldn't be shadowing on the building the house itself there may be some Shadows on thej on the property on the property yeah yes right thanks for clarify do we have anyone else in the audience who would like to make any comments I'm going to close the public por so that we can discuss I I want I want to speak about this one so I I think the the SE requirement def definitely have a a reason why we won't have it and giving that is a narrow narrow Lots but and it's already have a variance before I don't think it's you know building up on top of it creating more problem is something we should you know support um and if you believe it's not creating any sunlight property for property you should probably do a sunlight analysis on that right and um privacy issue you know it's a given so I I think uh it's not valid but in terms of sunshine in term of the Shadow you probably if you want to get it approved you should do a a thorough analysis sorry I'm not familiar with that analysis May Mr P was referring to is that um in certain cases where there um are setback variances that are being requested right where the the building is closer than what's permitted by ordinance that sometimes when there's an issue issue that is presented as to whether there will be additional Shadow casting from the project property onto the neighbor's property that boards will sometimes ask for something called The Shadow study okay where um the study is performed by a professional showing that at different hours of the day different times of the year that there as the applicant there won't be any adverse shadowing consequences onto neighboring homes by virtue of project right thank you yeah first not of that but yeah I understand yeah just I said in basic layman's terms I know the house is set back I know that it won't but I I understand what you're saying yeah um other anyone else want to comment I'll comment um so I'm mixed on this one I can see that it's an extremely narrow lot as are all the lots that are nearby you I drove by today and um but but I am moved by the neighbors comments quite frankly and I feel like variances and this application are I'm going to be a little mean an example of give people an inch and they want a mile you got a variance for the in 2011 for the deck which is lovely and sounds like you use it occasionally but now you want to build on top of something you already had a variance for it will in my mind impact the neighbor she's really close to you she's she stated how it's depressed her to have some of the things you've had already that the fence is in compliance but it's a big plastic fence she has no control over that the deck she should have come but she didn't was busy and didn't she should have come to oppose it then but she is here now so I have to say if it were my property and I hear her I agree with her this is going to this is going to block her light to her property there's no question that it will block her light by creating Shadows no matter how the Sun is moving a light on her property will be impacted by this even by the by the dimensions that we don't actually have so I would not be in favor of this application um I think you know looking at the um we can't go onto neighbors property when we're out um you know looking at applicants um so seeing this photo to um from the neighbor perspective um absolutely you know gives me pause you know this house the the applicant's house is already extending further back into the rear yard than the um you know that the than the neighbors houses and imagining you know an enclosed structure on top of a deck I think it's very I think it's very concerning um I don't know that I could support this application but I'd be curious what everyone else thinks I think I agree with that I think the grade change um I know for lack of better exacerbates the situation because the other house just sits so much higher than it that it kind of dwarfs her house in the backyard and so adding the structure on kind of adds to that what's already happening yeah I think I agree with those comments as well I would say I mean to sh shank comments I do think that I'm not sure what the effect of the sunlight would be it depends on the angle of the Sun as it comes across it's not going north south that's going east west right so I I would at a minimum I want to understand what the impact of the sun would be on the neighbor before I approve that from a privacy perspective I'm sympathetic to the comment although I don't think I don't think did you you guys didn't really you came talk I don't think you got the original variant right so um so they it's not like they're getting another B proper the property did but they didn't um but uh uh but nevertheless there is a deck there that is at least sometimes used so I'm not sure that there're being a sunro it may be used a little more but not sure materially impacts the Privacy point I'm more concerned conc ered about the impact of sunlight and maybe even the massing uh in the backyard and what that's like for the neighbor so I'm I'm a little bit skeptical about this but as I say at a minimum I want to know that they're not going to end up being blacked out like an eclipse um you know if this thing something to see agree with Gary I think sunlight may not have an issue the massing will have an issue at the back end and I mean certainly some analysis would be helpful but I don't think that that would be you know blocking or creating Shadows on their property that would be my initial view but you know to the extent there could be more uh evidence brought that that might just be helpful but massing is clearly an issue at the back end seems like listening to the testimony if I could add a comment about sunlight just thinking back to physics sunlight is not a linear phenomenon it's a conical it's a cone sunlight is a cone so you know if you're taking a chunk out of that cone it's going to impact something so that is how sunlight works it's not a boom it's straight line it's a comb no you're so obviously you're impacting the com by putting a a mass property with affecting sunl I just I also just want to add to Shen's um point that we do have sidey you know setback ordinances for a reason and perhaps this is really a very good example of it I know that the applicants did not come before board previously to seek the variance for this deck but we do now see that variances you know run with the land so now you know this this variance was given for this deck um sometimes we know as a board will put in a condition that it can never be enclosed if we do that I looked you know into the variant um into the resolution there was nothing stating that but I think commonly that is something that we'll put in because we are concerned about the fact that a variance runs with the land and what is the next owner going to do or what is the third owner going to do you know so on so forth and I think right now we're seeing this really play out with you know a deck that's already non-conforming and now trying to put put an enclosure on it um that could really impact the next door neighbors can I say something to the board sure back up I think one of the arguments that were made in the prry hearing when we listening is actually putting a room in there to to make it quieter and and and actually give privacy to The Neighbor Next Door so the opposite argument is being made by all of you here and and my neighbor you know by enclosing the room we're actually going to make it quieter for them um I do understand everything else that you've raised but you know I just want to point that out that the one of the reasons for giving the approval to the prior applicant was giving privacy to the to the neighbor and the opposite is being AR right except that here you have a situation where you're you're having a sun room that's going to have a light inside of it right so you're using the space more because it's going be used not only year round but also can be used in the evening time right as additional space and there's going to be light inside and there's not going to be any curtains so there's a potential for impact as well agree well it's also the the the differences in properties in terms of the slope of the property and where your neighbor houses and and rear yard is in relation to your proposed Su so it's not it's not exactly the same thing so of the proximity we talked about there it was like several feet away here it's pretty close all that matters um so you've heard the comments from the board um if if you want to proceed I don't if you would like to proceed with a vote um and the vote is not in your favor then you're not going to be able to come back before the board without substantial changes um because of the do judic so is that is that an Ever Rob can describe it you know more ter of so basically what the chairwoman stated is that if you ask for a vote right now and it's a negative vote then you can't necessarily come back because of these legal doctrines are called restated cot and clar will stop and say well I'll tell you what now I'm going to take a foot off this or two inches off of this and I want another application and vote you may be legally foreclosed from even presenting that because it'll be too similar to what was already denied so you've heard some comments as to some concerns that the board members have so you can ask for a vote you can ask that the application be what's called continued to another date and take into consideration the comments and decide whether you want to present additional evidence like a shadow study modify your project somehow you can withdraw I mean there's a lot of things you can do um but those are the options you have right now you can mostly whether you want to have a vote right now and take your chances or whether you want to carry the hearing to another date and reconsider your options clarifying question for you even if it's another board in two or three years if it's a no it still holds as a no correct okay well I honestly think the main thing is to me I know the board presented some you can talk privately amongst yourselves for a coup no I think I think you know is what it is but the shadow study I think is the biggest thing I honly in my heart don't think it's going to cast many Shadows but if we get a an an expert that does a shadow study then if we look at it we might WR we like for continuation then extended okay I do we have another date heard that in a while um wait that's if I could just clarify I don't know if I can speak here but for like Haring on the shadow study I don't think that will be compelling while you're welcome to do it and I don't think that this is going to be compelling for the board I think the issue really is the proximity and the mass I'm just putting that out there so you don't spend more money doing things that um you know are not going to be compelling appreciate thank you I would agree with Priscilla thank you exposure sun's not difference I agree with the proximity and the massing I can I say you've heard the comments from good comments from the board yeah I appreciate but um but surely that should have come up uh because the other structure that they built was much bigger than what we're we're a lot lower down so that that should have come up at the pre um well just let let's every I understand every application Rises and falls on its own presentation evidence and facts in the record you would like to get some more evidence and facts and that's up to you but I think the board has done a good job of giving you some hon feedback as to where they currently stand with the application no I think we hear the concerns of our neighbor and we would like to come back and show some contrary evidence how does January 13 2025 sound I'm not doing anything GNA be here I know if they're GNA do a study that's your decision I don't know how long you're not gonna it's gonna be hard over the holidays to get somebody my question yeah I was gonna say that because time year you have to carry it till January 13th for scheduling purposes because we haven't adopted our 2025 okay so so we may not necessarily get to you on January 13 2025 but for notice purposes we'll be at least carrying the matter for now until January 13 2025 with no further notice to be provided to your neighbors so M Jen so the hearing the next hearing on this application at least for now will be January 13 2025 January 13 2025 at 7 o'clock here in this room okay can I have a hold on okay can I see something not yet is that okay okay so do you do you understand yes okay and um you have the right to present any additional evidence that you may feel is is relevant and persuasive at that time agree okay you had a question yeah I also want to mention actually the sun will block our West Side what so what's gonna happen yeah is that Mr Mrs chower are gonna come back potentially and present some additional information at that time you will have the right to question that information and if you want to present your own information okay today I no no no the hearing is closed for now okay okay you'll the next hearing if you want you have more to say that is relevant to the application and the variance relief you'll have your opportunity okay okay thank you very time thank you thank you thank you um yes it is so it is um 952 we're starting an application can start an application yeah I I think no new cases after 10 and no new testimony after 10:30 okay so we're we're you know we're we're kind of at the cost so has you know so safely suggested that I pull all of you um to get you know get your thoughts on if you're okay starting knowing that we're g to have a hard stop at 10:30 or um you know we are going to to that would be my sorry so we have I don't know she's she's going to be I just kept all my kids with a babysitter for this I'm okay hearing I think we go ahead okay all right thank raise your hands to s from testimony about to give ni proing do truth truth truth yes for the record Stephanie romano and Thomas beo architect the applicant okay you start want me to start okay good evening um thank you for reviewing our application my name is Stephanie Romano um unfortunately my husband was here he ran home because the babysitter had to leave so he couldn't stay um we moved to Short Hills at the end of June with our four kids um to 85 Stewart from New York City and we're thrilled to be settling in we love our new home um just as background the HPC has already approved the structure that's going over um the tennis court at the rear of our house um just some background on it my husband and I were both very competitive athletes we both competed in college so what we're trying to do is just continue to Foster encourage sports with our own kids um who are also already athletes um so by covering the tennis court we're hoping to just extend its use for more of the Year during inclement weather things like that um so this evening we're seeking approval for a variance um to address two of the columns on the HPC approv structure that slightly encroach on current setbacks and Tom can tell you more about this okay good evening we uh we did get HBC approval need to get your certainly okay uh my name is Thomas Bao I've been a licensed architect in New Jersey for 33 years had my practice here for a very long time um I continue to be in good standing with the State Board of Architects I've been testifying before this board um over a 100 times and as well as many adjacent towns thank you acceptable yeah okay thank you um so as as you heard we were approved at the August HPC meeting part of the condition of approval at HPC and I'm pointing to my drawings right now so these are not new exhibits part of the approval before HC was sort of how do they put their arms around a giant roof over tennis court Tom so are these all um renderings that have been presented to the board as part of the application yes they have I know I've seen a version of this so this is exactly just a larger version of what you submitted it's the exact same size okay so I'm pointing I'll be clear I'm pointing to sheet A4 of the packet that was handed out CET A4 illustrates a open structure over the tennis court with Ivy and walls around it and part of the reason we're here we were never intending to come for a variance is getting this approved through HBC required in in sort of the deal making of it that we consider Garden walls around our tennis structure the tennis structure is no closer than 12 ft to the property line um the problem is building these larger walls gets us closer to the property line in the court so in order to have met the conditions of HPC we were almost immediately cast before your board for approval at two locations the bottom right where we have a 30-in variance created we have a 9t 6 in offset to the start of that that wall so that's the 30 in and in the back left corner um for a distance of I colored it in but it's very very tiny probably about four feet of that corner the structure is 9 ft from the property line whereas 12T is required so we have these two instances in which the front right corner and the back left corner encroach this much on the front right and 3T in a triangular shape so it's a very small triangle in the back left that's why we're here tonight I brought additional exhibits if they are needed I'm not going to introduce them at this point but I'm prepared to talk about distances to the property homes we hired an engineer we did plom metrics showing where the light spillage occurs but I'd like to um close my testimony for now light of time what light I did studies for HPC to show where did you present those the underside of the tennis court inside those those part of the this packet no I can introduce them so when you put the roof on we're going to have lights underneath the roof casting straight down and this shows that there's very little spilling that occurs outside of the Court we don't allow doesn't commit accessory structures to so I don't know why how's it different than a garage wait wait hold on a second so fir first of all this is I think what you need to do and I understand it's it's late but I think you need to reel it back a little bit okay and present comprehensively what this application is I understand that you're saying it's only 3 feet in this corner and three feet in that corner but you haven't even got into what the application is what the intended use is what the structure is going to look like just like for you know any addition any architectural rendering that you would do for a single family home you need to do that because we you need to make a record good or bad for purposes of this hearing so I would start in reference if you want to reference your plans or whatever you want to reference in terms of exhibits but I think you need to explain what this application is for not just that it's three feet here and 3et there okay the application is for a roof construction over an existing tennis court the existing tennis court complies with setbacks in that it's 12 feet or more from the surrounding property lines we were approved before HPC in August with this structure but part of that approval process required that we address an aesthetic goal which is to introduce Garden walls of a certain thickness around our tennis Pavilion as part of the structure part of the column open wall structure that it have room that they have some substance to them that rendered our roof approximately 30 inches larger than the tennis court otherwise we're putting the retaining wall the surrounding walls inside the court so we have to now build them outside of the Court area which produc produces one variance for side yard setback the variance really emerges at the bottom right corner and at the top left corner where each of those locations top left being 36 in bottom right being 30 in are too close to the property line This 30inch variance extends most of the way back until we get to the back corner which is 12 1/2 ft so it's substantially more so some where between these two points maybe 78 of the way back 3/4 of the way back we no longer have a technical variance for sideart setback but suffice to say 3/4 of the right side is within 12 feet of the property line with the worst case being 96 and just the back left corner for a distance of approximately four feet on each leg of the tennis court sits within 12 feet of the property line so with regard to the actual use it's a tennis court how far is the sidelines of the tennis court to these these new structures that are going the the new structure the wall around the tennis court is right up against the tennis court okay how far from the sideline of the tennis court to the wall uh zero Ines it's right on the wall is right on the court not in the court it's right on the court but the wall has thickness and that thickness gets within 30 in at the bottom right corner and in the top left hand corner it gets within three feet do you have what I'm going to call it a floor plan yes that shows the distance or the dimension of the court I'm assuming it's lined for doubles and not just singles uh the answer is I don't have a tennis court plan I have a roof plan E1 is going to be your E1 oh yeah it a tennis court that's superimposed on it right right so so on on E1 what's the distance from the sideline of the doubles Court let's call it to the wall oh I don't know that distance um I don't have the tennis court sizes this is 60 feet by 120 that's the that's the over hit area of a tennis court so this is 60 I would say the tennis court is approximately 40 maybe this is 15 and 12 and 12 something like that okay so the point is that there's sufficient distance if you're playing tennis that you're not going to be running into the wall oh yeah the right but one of the things that we came across HPC is that they wanted this wall unless you build a wall with within the legal um this is a regulation tennis court so the overhead area is quite substantially bigger than the court so the wall has to go outside of that and that produces the variant and let's talk so the the roof structure what's it made of the roof structure is made of polycarbonate panels basically uh I might have a picture I didn't bring the roof spec sheet but I might have a better picture no yeah I really can't see you I'm going to point to my sheet 1 183 this drawing depicts that the vast majority of the roof the whole center part is polycarbonate transparent panels thank you oh well just and then the outer parts of that are rigid solid insulated foam um stainless steel panels so it's a combination of and I'm sorry you really can't see it but if you look at your drawing 18 183 you'll see that's the best perspective and it's a steel structure because there's not too many other ways to span this distance the height of the structure is 18 ft so it's conforming for accessory use structures and the purpose of the variant is because we're building these walls net of the court net of the regulation play area how how are you able to play tennis I'm a tennis player how are you able to play tennis with a roof structure that is only 18 ft high it's for kids primarily and it's training we're not holding we're not holding like tournaments it's and it's going to be used for tennis but other sports as well it's not just like they have turf on it right now for soccer but uh the predominant play is just about six feet above the net the predominant play the voluming can't occur in this thing so it's not going to have that ability sorry one other question if I look at E1 it looks like I guess these are lights and ceiling fans yes we'll address that next because it might have to be another variants yeah we get to that one second let's just let's stick to the height so so this is this is why I asked you to reel it back so it's going to be primarily used for for tennis training okay soccer training tennis train it's soccer training as well so what's the what's the surface of what I'll call The Sport Court clay yeah well it's it's Clay it's a clay court and it has the ability to have rolled in um grassy Turf what's on it downtown grassy Turf yeah we have turf down right like astro turf right yeah but it's it's actually a multiport Turf so it can be used for tennis basketball socer it's it has the pulverized rubber that you lay down as well so I mean is it conceivable that you can roll that up and create the clay tennis court which is I'm not sure I would want to truthfully I I I I think the idea in picking this material is that it's multisport we can use it for tennis we've played tennis on it we've actually played basketball kids and soccer so just get the board idea Sports Court we're talking about yeah I mean yeah I mean I guess it's being morphed into a sports what do they call it HPC Pavilion sport Pavilion Yeah question about the roof is it enclosed because it look like a like a trellis sort of apparatus but it's it's actually fully covered yeah so it's uh it's fully covered so raindrops cannot enter this structure oh okay because that's what I was confused about because it looks like to talk about the sunlight Shadows but I'm just questioning it's so it is closed it's cover the roof is complet and closed the walls are not so you're going to have the ability where rain or wind could actually come into play so will this make noise when raindrops hit it um I would say it should make the same sound of pitter patter that it would make on the cord itself it's not going to be um Amplified our I think our say metal somewhere maybe some it is the sides are metal the center is a polycarbonate and Mrs TR I would I would really encourage you to look at that one8 rate because that's a good perspective picture it does show um it's construction you think yeah there is a the um the side panels that are made of metal are insulated with you like um styrofoam so it's there is some sound that it makes but it's not going to be more than what I just said a pitter patter the the plastic one is probably where you're going to get more resonating sound of raindrops or hail so are these clear panels yes they're polycarbonate so they're clear and then on the sides they're closed and what does that mean that's that's an aluminum panel oh it's yeah I said stainless steel because I'm not sure how the interaction of regular steel with takes place there might have to be some intermediate agent because of you know electrolysis so they might be stainless steel they might be a little okay so they are okay just to step back what was the rationale for HPC creating this you know request that you have to go all around creating a wall number one and secondly was this variance cre you were probably aware variance is created if you have to create that did you try telling them that can just knock off that quar and this 78 side you know the right side that we don't have to create that I'm just not understanding speak I could speak a little bit to that because I sat on the multiple times that this application became before HPC um the original structure looked kind of industrial um it was like metal or I I I don't remember exactly because it went through a bunch of iterations but it did not fit the character of the rest of this property or being you know historic in any way so after multiple times of coming which you could look in the you know HBC resolution coming before um you know historic it was also much higher roof um you know HBC had concerns about the height of the roof um that that's kind of how this this final you know design plan came into play I don't recall their their us being aware of any variance you know from from doing the um you know from doing the wall I don't know if was maybe once you actually did the final calculations I think that that was you know that like an after kind of an after thing it's this it's 30 inches yeah it's um yeah what will the Garden Wall have growing on maybe from the house we're the the Garden Wall along with the columns are going to replicate the uh drawing sorry the picture 383 on that A3 sheet which shows a a stone low wall around the patio with columns Made of Stone which are also CLA with growing Ivy so I don't know if the Forester gets involved with this but Ivy is considered invasive so the Garden Club we can't even put it in our Arrangements it's so invasive it goes everywhere it goes everywhere so just before you go to that trouble make sure you're okay with the Forester well it's on the house today um yeah but you're adding new yes and Ivy chases water so a lot of times ivy on a wall suggest that there's an underlying you know water issue I between my neighbor and mine I'm always ripping it out and there's no water anyway we don't want to have the Forester May shut it down if it's okay well we'll definitely address that into that before you go to trouble okay so now we know I mean because the plans all say tenns all of them so now we know that if this is a pavilion or Sports Court with soccer tennis basketball clay with the turf that can be rolled out the turf is on there now okay yeah basketball's also already there it's already got hoops from previous owners like those are it's existing it's existing basketball and Tennis so what's the main what's the main surface in other words when you play basketball you're not playing basketball on the playay we're playing it on the sports on Sports it's multiport t it's the Rubber and but but but for but when you play tennis you playing tennis on the rubberized Turf that's why we put that down because we consulted with various companies and we picked one used across multiple sports for kids I mean it's supposed to be super versatile I mean that's understand just trying to get for the record so is are you ever going to be using this for clay court tennis will you ever unroll this I I have no idea I really right so the intent is not necessarily to keep rolling in rolling it but just to use this Sport Court surface for multiple Sports yes I think that's yeah I mean I have four kids were 10 turning 11 eight five and you know a toddler so for me like this is like longevity like what can we do with ease and for the long so okay so let's talk about um so we have the height lighting let's talk like the lighting on the inside fans so e talked about that so please explain sure well underneath here obviously there there'll be restrictions we'll accept on ours but there is lighting that faces down the goal of the lighting is to improve the ability of a player to hit a a tennis ball or kick a soccer ball and not worry about having too much Darkness uh in preparation for that and we did testify to the historic preservation commission about the lighting but when I put columns in a roof on a building I'm pretty sure it becomes a building the definition of a building in our zoning ordinance is a column ordinance specifically says no above ground lighting of recreational facilities on one and two family Residential Properties shall be permitted yes for that reason right they don't want a light recreation facilities to be used well the spirit of that has to be so that you don't have white spillage well no no we we don't talk about Spirit of the ordance words count and if if the ordin says that you can't light an outdoor sports Court um I'm pretty positive that the notice itself didn't contemplate that nor asked for any type of variance no it did not okay um while while we're on so that's something that the board I think may want to consider in terms of relief that's required for this application um the other question I guess legal question that I have is that we the board sees and we've had application for a number of sports courts athletic courts with similar type of um uh foundations or surfaces um but I don't recall any that were roofed and so I guess my question is whether a the applicant is contending that a roofed Sports Port is a permitted accessory structure in this residential zone or whether variance relief is requ for that that we can ask H I don't think we were going for Relief on the use okay so the question is is whether a roof Sports Court the roof portion is is customary incidental and subordinate to a principal residential use in a residential Zone in the township so that's up to the board I didn't cited for that I mean there's always a first of everything you know I didn't cite it for not a permitted accessory okay since the tennis court was already there that's that's okay got it so then I suppose in preparation for this you mentioned there might be a noticing deficiency is there a noticing deficiency well if the notice first of all the application didn't request relief for lighting of an accessory structure that's number one number two the notice um I believe did not make any mention of the need for this relief so members of the public would get the notice and and think that the use is permitted or the lighting is permitted yeah when when it's not so we went through the lighting with HPC we hired an engineer and did some lighting studies which are very beautifully done the application was submitted that way um I just didn't call it out because I really thought this Rose to the level of being a building um not it's still accessory it's an access but accessory buildings are allowed to have lights correct this is a recreational facility this is not a building per se it's recreational in nature okay if you feel that that would be an appropriate we're just we're just following the ORD nothing well can I ask a question I'm not sure it's clear when this just because I don't know genu so like it's right next door to like the pool house which we have right the same height no the pool house is 18t right they're the same height we did that right and MIM the design of yes it's relatively low for a pool house that's literally right next to is it is that an accessory structure I just I'm genuinely asking because I don't know it is an accessive structure and it is lit and is that considered Recreation that's an enclosed that's no I'm genuinely just trying to recreational yeah it would still be considered Recreation so if the so if the open walls constitute that then then we have a noticing deficiency because the notice should provide that there's lighting right and you intend to it's not just so that there's it's a safety issue it's because you want to increase the use of the um structure to nighttime use yes right say something just right now even just as the tennis court as it stands I mean it's get it's dark very early my kids are using it to train you know not late I mean really truly not late I mean they're using it 5 o'clock six o'clock um we have to turn on the flood lights on the pool housee in order for them to be able to see so I mean my kids are like we're not using it late but we still do need light even without I'm just trying to understand yeah ma'am it's it's not a question of whether when when we as a board call out the need for Relief we're not necessarily saying that the applicant can't meet the proofs for that relief but it's very important for every applicant to be treated the same in terms of what relief is needed so I think what we're what eileene is referring to is that fact that relief is needed from this board to allow you to light this facility at night you need to get a variance to allow the facility to be lit at night and of course that might be subject to conditions in terms of hours like Mr beo talked about Etc but you still need to apply for the relief notice for the relief and present proofs of What's called the positive and negative criteria to be permitted or have the vote board vote in favor of granting now Mr Simon if though my notice to the public including to the neighbors clearly stated and any additional variances that are determined the night of the hearing something along those lines does that give us immunity from the re noticing not in this case I'll tell you why so there are cases where What's called the Catal phrase that you just described May cover you if for example the applicant says I need a a 12 foot variance or deviation and it turned out to be 11 feet or 10 feet or nine feet okay case law says that well that's not really fair to have them come back and start over because they're off by a foot or two feet right that's why that's what really started and led to having this catchall phrase so that it wouldn't be a whoops got you type of type of thing here the variance relief that you need is very different than what you what you noticed for right sure it's not like that you noticed for um this variance but that you use the wrong foot candle measurement right in terms of minimum maximum or right right so it it doesn't allow you because of the nature of the variance that you didn't apply for to utilize the catall phrase to to include it and even if you did did I'd have an issue because the board or a member of the public would never know that you needed a variance because they went to go look at your application and your application also didn't talk about any lighting and he didn't include any Lighting in terms of or or relief for lighting included any of the application material well the request for Relief did not include lighting right and it's not some one's fault it's just you know this happens but we did testify extensively about lighting at HPC and of um you know we we've spent thousands of dollars creating these plom metrics so I I can come back and testy I don't want to do something wrong we want to do it completely transparent the variance relief was needed when the garden walls around the structure were required and so that that's what triggered the offset and so the variance request was made based on that um the lighting didn't just emerge on here it it had been adjudicated but not through this body through a version of this body known as HPC because they're an accretion of this body but you have a huge Advantage because it sounds like the work's already done oh yeah oh yeah and we never tried to pull the wool over anyone's eyes and show these yeah yeah in fact we we even met with neighbors talking about lighting um but um that's fine we we'll do the the proper thing because that's what we want to do can I just it's actually it's in section five is a it's not a variance it's a waiver but it's still what it required notice correct well that's why I wanted to make sure it's the section five of the ordinance so it's not a variance it's a so it's a so it's a design exception right for and but does it does it talk what's that I'm just looking to see if it's in section six at all I don't it's [Applause] it's not in any other area okay I just read to me again what what the actual language says in section Section 5 2.2 no above ground lighting of recreational facilities on one and two family Residential Properties shall be permitted except as provided in six 60911 regarding swimming pools they make special special exceptions for swimming pools yeah so you're going to need um it sounds like a the way the ordinance is written you're going to need a form of exception relief okay for for lighting of this of this outdoor structure now whether Eileen while we're here so that this is comprehensive they have to come back um is there any additional relief that they would need beyond that and the setbacks for the cols I don't believe so okay no um is there any additional um information that any board member they want to see that is not included in the application materials relative to this application because we wouldn't want to have the applicant come back and the board say oh wait you know can you come back a third time and present this I want to find out is there is there any variance that forbids invasive plans only because I would feel terrible if they invested in all this and then I mean because I know there's like some invasive stuff there's like not in the Z plan but I don't know that there's any forbidden not bamboo I thought was something actually I would take a photo board of the existing surface conditions just so they can see it yeah I can do that I'll have photos of the surface conditions maybe we can do a climbing Mysteria Mysteria might be one of those things too I don't they're funny and there's been discussion about it but I'll do some research and I'll present it at the next meeting right make sure it's all okay before you go to theou sure um one question for the attorney the read notice it's not an ordinance it's a waiver right so it should I notice that we are also seeking design waivers for the lighting because most most public will not this is this is what I would recommend so the the the purpose and this is kind of a Tweaky one because it's not it's a it's a exception instead of a variance so the short answer is prepare your notice and send it to me and I'll take a quick look at it make sure sure it's good just a cut to the chase um but you know the purpose of notice is to advise the the public of the nature of the matters considered and if I if I write that out properly saying we are also seeking waivers on having lighting underneath the structure the site to the section um Eileen can I meet with you on that and get some language that you think would be in regular person speak you didn't understand what I meant to I understood it completely but I have to write it into a public notice write the whole thing yeah let me let me come in I'll you're not in next week I'm not here this week oh you'll be in next week mpali this yeah I know I but she was just in Paris they don't Short Hill specifically prohibits out when it gets dark yeah or they come before this cour uh this board will review it I'm sure this board has granted liting court open can I ask a question just again want to understand so like how do people do people get permission to light them forget those structure just forget that for a second like can you put a light on your tennis court just to play like a low like so you don't have to stop at 4 o00 when it's winter or fall so nowhere in Short Hills people play I haven't had any come I don't think we've ever had anyone come and ask for lighting public parks don't even have that's not true jro has lighting and they turn off the basketball court and the tenns but not on the the baseball fields no but so what's it so they do have it on basketball and Tennis yeah they live till 10 o00 is that because it's a part I'm just trying to understand like if you want to play tennis at your house um most people work and they don't get home till s00 and they kids in the summer they go out and play at night yeah but I don't I don't know of any application I've seen for or any other sports gr where they've asked to to light the PT at night right I'm talking night I'm talking just like late afternoon the point being is that it's even if it's 8:00 it's still it's still L forth where you're increasing the hours of use and the question is if it's permitted by the ordinance that's great it's not permitted by the ordinance you need a variance or you need an exception and and you know every ordinance in almost every municipality including Milburn says anything that's not expressly permitted is prohibited we didn't write the ordance we just go balls and Stripes um in so doing Um this can move pretty quickly from my standpoint re noticing I can do in about two hours um can I get on the December calendar that means tomorrow Monday oh wait the item is due tomorrow so you can't get the item till next Thursday oh that's right yeah the earliest that they'll do is next Thurs th which is when is the next hearing that I could put you on I mean I could probably they're being c one two I have four on the second I have one be four on the 16th one of which is a car well actually we'd have to be the 16th we couldn't do the second put you on the 16th but you're gonna be last are you in town because I have no idea I'm not obviously I'm not able to talk anymore today no we haven't closed my I I own this moment I'm not I'm only being courteous I I I don't know what's going on with holidays and okay um so we'd like to carry this to the December 16th hearing I should meet the conditions of noticing before that and U and we'd like to encourage you to maybe speak to your neighbor who's you know here some concerns maybe she could you know off offline I did it last time okay great you know if she has any questions and maybe we'll be better prepared to address them next time you come before the board will you accept me coming back over I have I think I I think it's reaching a situation where I have to get a laer that no this is becoming a big thing a big overnight thing noise is going to be constant or two in the morning with tennis courts' children first of all me we're not first of all we haven't even open up to the public yet I think I was just being courteous about the dates I'm sorry I did we're just the chairwoman just gave a suggestion you know for the applicant to maybe understand your concerns and certainly I think you already heard that the that the applicant was willing to limit hours so I think that this idea of two in the morning is not we'll work it out I'm positive all right thank you that's one way so we're not at lighting is limited everywhere that's right so if the matter wasn't properly notice are we actually carrying it or he has to Ren notice no he has to re notice un rtic and and he's and it's going to be you have a new date or at least the tenative date of December 16th and you're GNA have to you know essentially not that we've gotten very far but it's essentially a doo understood um so we're carrying with no further not no we're not carrying we carrying it with we're not carrying we're rescheduling it with with no no you have to re notice so we're not actually carrying it you have to re notice every it all right we'll [Music] do correct um so I'm assum there's no one in the audience who wants to speak about anything that's not pertaining to matters on the agenda because I'm not seeing anyone um so do I have a motion to can I just say pra's out the door I hear it listen thank you Joe 14 seconds so as the board is aware um the board was was uh is in the middle of some litigation of Blood by a neighbor on the application we talk about this now granted I just want let everyone know we're not talking about it okay okay it's 14 seconds that we had a trial this this week earlier this week or it was late last week and the judge said she would make a decision within 60 days and just want to keep her one up 14 seconds there you go now we want to know more to close now do we have talk anymore even though we just closed the ear sorry so that that's being scratched that whole application because they didn't send proper notification to the neighbors okay you'll come back on December 16th with a lawyer whoever you want and it'll be a start over for that application okay I just didn't know you should be Ren noticed neighbor which neighbor are you I'm the one they are in my front yard okay all right that's okay happy than