I e e e in accordance with Section Five the open public meeting act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 we advise that a notice of this meeting was made by posting on the Baltimore town hall and mailing to the officially designated newspapers a listing of the meeting dates annually indicating that this meeting will take place at Town Hall at 7M on May the 20th 202 jph hereos here here here yeah here here everyone um we're going to start with our memorializations no minutes this evening correct so our first memorialization is calendar 39 4623 on WE to Winding Way ills any corrections or changes to that moralization Joseph C Sean Gary Regina Priscilla um can I have a uh motion move approval calendar 34 3946 uh and second I can second josephi yes yes G Rosen yes TR yes yes yes yes next up calendar 39 7124 UHA deti 404 W Bridge Road sh Hills any corrections or changes eligible are Joseph sh Rosen no questions changes I have a motion that Cas motion to approve calendar number 3971 24 a second second josephi yes yes yes TR yes yes yes Jess yes next up we have calendar 3975 24 Amar trust investment and 346 C Drive same any corrections or changes I have a motion please move approval calendar 3975 second good second josephi yes yes har yes TR yes yes yes J yes lastly calendar 39684 296 Ms Partners 249 Main Street milour any corrections or changes motion move approval second I thank you Joseph corfield yes shandro yes Gary yes obain I think I'm not eligible foris yes joen yes good yes thank you next up we have the new business calendar 38722 which is an extension of onee extension of prevy approv uh application um I think we were looking for what the reason did she not okay all right um the email that we received you like plans to get Construction done last year but we're unable to start the project because of a few family health related issues um that required us to travel in and out of the Year frequently till March of this year um they did do would like would like to now it started with construction so they anticipate getting started so this is on an extension right now or no a 22 app I mean when was this this was this was memorialized July 2022 expired in july2 three so that's already one one I don't think um yeah they did not receive right so that's when that should have come in for the so now which a year and a half well two years they are they are technically permitted to ask for what amounts to the first extension after the period has expired all right prevent us all right consider their um variances that were s were combine side yard um building coverage of they were seeking 1.8% over so it was just those two variances obviously it's staying the same nothing all right we have a motion for 38722 for one your extension I'm move approval second I can second call Joseph corfield yes shre harani yes Amy Lawrence yes har Rosen yes Regina Tru yes Jessica GL yes yes and that'll be to expire July 8 right so they have two months okay uh down so let them know that uh okay so couple things things um calendar 39 2523 Lucky Express USA the uh property question is located 11 M hour Rock Road that will not be heard this evening and it will be carried to July 1st 2024 no further notice will be given so if you're here tonight on that case um it will not be heard this evening come back July 1 please keep an eye on the uh website if anything does change there but otherwise there will be no new notice on that case um calendar 3981 24 which is uh Matthew and B Ross Lo 46 East that will be put last in tonight's order so we'll be starting this evening with calendar 39774 Yankee at 26 wait a second wait a second that out I'm sorry yes that I'm sorry just raise your right hand please swear from testimony about the even tonight's proceeding be the truth whole truth nothing but the truth yes your name for the address strong your name uh y first name y a n g last name g e thank you okay and you're the property owner correct yes you'll be speaking on behalf of your property saing yes I am okay now what you have there something you'd like to give us it's a small version of the poster if you cannot see that clearly you can see this one okay so uh our Turney will okay so do you have any expertise as an architector and engineer uh actually no I there I just have a builder actually and uh what I want do is to build uh layer the pairs on the back bikard so I need to uh require a so many per Mees so I don't need that architecture okay yes so what we're gonna do is we're g to Mark what you have on the easel as A1 so if you put in the right hand corner of your e of your right there okay right I want you to write A-1 I don't have a pen I'm sorry Marco here yes a white Corner A1 and then just put today's date okay and A1 just tell us before you get into description what is it yeah this is the or current status of my uh property and uh this is the uh proposed uh structure marked over here and that's it comparison comparison that you have some handouts and do you have some handouts that you wanted a hand out okay that duplicate that but in a smaller version yes exactly the same so want if you'd like to hand out to the board smaller versions of A1 you can do that now thank you okay and be leaving that with us by the way oh definitely okay thank you abely anyone here on thise anyone here on this case to come down front row we to see better um understand what's going on okay wait wait wait hold on second okay hold on so do you I see what you handed out consists of more than one sheet yes okay so it looks like consists of five sheets yes do you intend to present the five sheets in a larger version in like a two foot by three foot version yes exactly the same okay yeah you have them behind yes so what we're going to do is we're going to consider also as A1 only because this is just a smaller version than what you have there correct that on the uh e exactly okay yeah so for the record A1 and we're going to try to authenticate it in a minute consists of five sheets so as you go from um board to board you're going to reference them as the second page in essence of A1 okay so A1 is going to be one document consisting of five sheets okay okay okay and why don't you explain a little a little bit more detail m starting with the first sheet of A1 how you created it uh what did you do you mean for this one yes like what what is it and how did you create it on the paper yeah um I do do you do you mean how do I draw this image right yes like you know how how how did you create this I created it by myself I understand but um what is it intended to show and how did you go about um creating it what did you do is it is a computer generated is the computer gener okay and I see here there's meets and Bounds is it based on a survey yes okay based on existing survey existing survey and that's the existing survey that is included in the application materials correct yes that's it okay yeah and um in terms of the coloring and placing of the vehicles that was done by you yes it's done by me too it's more clear to show which one is the house which one is the front and backyard which one is the driveway and when you on the first page of A1 you have proposed and it looks like you have an area in the rear yard for the parking of vehicles correct yes this is a used the P so I used the brake shape over there and and and what do it doesn't look like you put any dimensions on the right side of A1 as proposed what are the dimensions of the proposed parking area uh the dimension is it's already mentioned in the application is 25 by 25 feet square okay and so 25 by 25 is is the square large one right yes and what's the dimension of the smaller Square uh the actually it's not quite for sure because this area this area I didn't matter but I think it's a 10 10 by 10 I think and uh okay so go ahead so make your presentation and when you do so please review uh please um mention the uh sheets by Page okay okay now here is the page one of the A1 and uh I'm uh my name is Young and I the new residents in the New Jersey moving from out of states and I me and my wife has a one year-old kids and we move into this house in the January this year and uh you can see this is the existing structure of the property the great one is the house is the two story frame house and uh this is the front of the house you can see this is the Grand Avenue which is a public road and uh for this house at the back of this house the mark the yellow area this is the one car garage actually uh connected to the garage and the public Drive public road is the long narrow driveway over here and what i propos is to add a extension of the driveway is a 25 by 25 square feet in the backyard and is connected to the existing driveway and also I will have a 3T WID of the walkway which connected from the uh backyard all the way to the front door so this is what I propose the M majority violation of the current of the code is first this area is relatively large and the second one is uh the side yard the the side yard setback is uh required to be 9 fet but for this one I I require is two feet because it need to align with the current driveway so the there are difficulties of the current driveway is because I turn into the A1 page two this is exactly what it looks like when you show when you see there are two the two cars parked on the driveway uh one is is parked over here uh even though it's in the widest part of the driveway there still have no space for my car to turn around and drive out after driving and uh also if my car my wife's car park over here I cannot drive about is blocks each other and this under image take over here to show this area you can see on the right of the driveway there are house wall of the house and also there are retaining wall over here and on the left side is my neighbor's property and there are curbs and the Rocks over here which also do not have space for me to turn around why do I have to turn around because this a really long narrow driveway if I drive in is difficult to reverse for me and my wife and um uh there's another difficulty to reverse out is I tend to the page three of A1 is that can you see over here when I reverse my car to the edge of the Glen Avenue you can see this is the back wheel camera and when it is to reach to the edge and I try to uh see through the passenger side window I try to see the upcoming traffic what I can see is this there's a tree on the side of the road blocks my wheel and I cannot see the upcoming traffic so it's really dangerous to to reverse in this C circumstance especially I have a one-year-old baby in the back seat so I have to uh Drive head in and have a space to turn around and drive out so may some some somebody May confused what what if we reverse inside and drive head out what is that possible it's also difficult turn to the page four of the file A1 so you can see my location actually is really close to the public library and also uh on the uh across the inter section there's the main entrance of South Mountain reservation and also is it's not shown there but it uh at this location it is a train station so every day every day during the morning time before 9:00 or in the afternoon after 3:00 there's really heavy traffic over here so it is impossible for me to reverse if especially when I drive in this direction do I have can I reverse into the driveway difficult and it's not safe because it's my potentially collide with the other drivers is not safe so I what I what I need is to have a space over here to drive head inside turn around and drive out and also this space could provide a an extra parking space for me and for my wife because it's only one car garage okay turn to the page five of the file A1 so this is what looks like of my backyard and on the right uh there's a right line over here to Mark out what is estimated to be located in the backyard and uh uh you can see this is a 25 by 25 paper area and when my car driving through the driveway reaching over here and make a 3.10 it can drive ahead out and I used to measure the size of the P sze of the area which I can make the 3.10 and the 25 by 25 actually is the minimum requirement to do this and also uh and also I cannot move it like uh 9 ft from the borderline because it will not uh connect it to driveways so is useless uh because my car cannot drive to to the paper so the uh so I need to it to be this size and the this location and the why the material I will use is Ed the 9 in by 6 in uh piver brick and it has a thickness of the two and a half inches which is strong enough to hold the weight of the car and uh this is a example picture from my Builder which is the Pro One Construction and they said uh they said it can be made by this and has a warranty for around 20 years and uh the reason I use the p is that if uh compared to the concrete and the asphalt the P will not block the penetration of the Ring after water through through into the soil right compared to concrete and as and there will the water will not accumulate in the backyard which will not generate the problem to me and my neighbors so I think uh I I hope and U in the future I don't know after a couple years 20 years that if the new owner of the this property do not like this uh area they can remove it easily so this is my proposal and I I hope you can approve it thank you okay um so um did you on this uh uh yes because I when I moved here I um I asked the construction company to work on that but when I noticed it require permit I asked the workers stop that immediately and apply for the permit and so this morning there are two sweet ladies come here and so the conditions of my of of my backyard is not finished because I know it's uh it's Val late to do not have a perit so I asked them to stop it immediately and apply for permit the town tell you to stop no I stop I stop the town didn't tell me to stop okay yeah I know it's wrong so I stopped by myself right how many of your neighbors have parking lots in their backyard I'm sorry how many of your neighbors have in your backyard uh my left hand 214 has a two-car garage in the backyard and my right side actually they their garage is in the front yard so they do not require the backyard I'm asking how many of your neighbors have 25 by 25 parking lots back uh I don't know they have the garage they do not have the backyard so they don't have right yes yes yes but but for the Neighbors uh to the larger number like the 226 or something I don't familiar with their property so I cannot provide that left to the right your house I just have two Neighbors noticed they have parking lots in their backyard um that's my point yeah um any other questions just a quick question um yes under the wood deck is there an entryway into the garage is there any door under the access door under the No No the ENT access door the access door is located over here on the side so under the wood deck is just it's just nothing you can't enter the garage I cannot yeah thanks did is this the only alternative that you considered to solve the problem you're having or did you consider other ideas oh no this is the only one I I because my uh my wife have to drop off the keys in the early morning like 7 to 8 o'clock and she she her her drive skills actually is even worse than me so she she has to drive did you contemplate this when you bought the house I'm sorry did you contemplate this when you bought the house uh uh when I bought what what do you mean by contemplate well I'm sorry when you purchased the house how long ago did you buy this house uh I bought the closing day is in the No No November I think and I move in is in this January okay and I apply for the permit is in the end of January I think I don't remember exactly and uh yeah processing so so prior to you Clos on the purchase of this house you had contemplated or thought about this project no you did it was after after you own the house you thought about it yeah when I have the two car D parking L here I that's a problem yeah the the previous only Aver they have is a Mini Cooper and that's much smaller but what I have is two SUVs my car is a Toyota Highlander is much larger did you know before you closed that your car could not fit into the one par garage oh my wife's car can fit into the par garage but my car definitely cannot yeah the garage actually the height is around my height it's not quite High yeah and my car is no SUV so did you sorry did you hire um a professional of any sort to help you come up with this plan like who was it just You Who Came it's just me and you hired a contractor or construction company to start building it yes but you didn't you didn't consult with any other professionals to try to come up with a no no I didn't yeah what concerns me about this is the drainage yeah I mean you you have an enormous area here that you're putting down impervious coverage and is there been any study done engineering or anything on where all that water is going to go the what actually um uh under this current situation Mo most of the waters from the house actually is flowing through here and they will accumulate over here and penetrate into the soil right but you're getting rid of a significant amount of soil in your backyard and you're now covering it with imperious surface uh actually during the normal rain there will be no water located over here and also uh the know that yeah the the the building of this paper actually is not using the concrete or anything it's just use the dirt compact underneath right Stone on top is not perous but water can still penry through uh no this is going to require they're going to want a greting it's 725 square feet of new coverage they don't care it's just coverage so you will need a gring from the engineering department that's a significant amount of lock additional lock coverage so I mean you're essentially turning your backyard and parking lot if you had another if you if you had one car parked in the back and you need to turn the other car around to get out would you be able to do that actually the uh this garage door actually is a manual door and my wife I do not normally park inside because it's really heavy for the uh for the lady to lift that door so if we build this one both me and my wife could park over here or she could park over here either way is fine if you did Park both cars in the back is it with a 25 by 25 foot area would you be able to turn a car around I I can so that's a big area yeah actually you could do it with a car there what what to do a t to do a t and turn around just do this like this actually it's not not that large 25 ft by 25 ft is 7.5 M yeah is three and a half time of my arm width so it's not quite large my car is uh let me see it's around 16 ft long and if you didn't park a car there and use the garage what you need is that much space um what what do you mean I I I could you repeat again one of the cars was in the garage right I still need that new garage door that you know that your wife could open I and you know would you need 25 by 25 or would you just could you do something smaller that would yes I still do 25 by 25 this is a minimum requirement I I used to be honest you see this picture there are some uh tire marks over here is because I try to measure how long I I I drive my car into the Bard what sheet are you referring to you're refering uh page five I'm sorry yes and you can see on the grass there are tire marks over here because I drive in side trying to get the 3.10 and I Mark is 25 by 1055 is the minimum requirement for my me to do the 3. and you understand that there's a a setback that you're violating as well yes I understand are you proposing any type of vegetation to screen your parked vehicles from your neighbor either side uh no uh you mean to build a or something to to block the I'm looking at your page five of A1 where it says 25 by 25 and I don't see any vegetation to the left let alone to the right that could provide any type of spr would probably not work because you're using 25 by 25 and I guarantee you're going to hang your vehicle over the edge okay which means you're going to hit the fence so it have to be some sort of vegetation to so it's vegetation not F Okay okay something to block the block the car to prevent it hit the fence right no from your neighbors seeing your Park cars in the middle of your backyard well if I just if I do not park work here but I still need a place two turn round I can I can I can park over here yeah currently my car is parking over here but the the problem is that I need a place to make to the so you're saying your car is currently parked Jon into the wood deck um not not uh it can be parked over here near the wood deck over here right yes and uh if you refer to the page um sorry page two the U actually is located from here all the way down over here if it's driving a little bit is still difficult for this car to drive into the garage because the end of this car is still blocking the driveway good question the reason I asked about where is the entryway under the house which doesn't exist is because this little p that would be new walkway would be new correct walk here uh the one that leads from the proposed new parking space to the side that's a new paper walkway that you're proposing or already uh is a new pway fuel but that adds to the overage correct he only 11% over that's my question too for love lot coverage if you took out that pathway or perhaps maybe just directed it back onto the driveway would that substantially affect the 11% could we reduce that okay okay uh it's actually a question for E I don't know if you know that off the top of your head like how much does that contribute to the overage of the lock coverage that little walkway he proposing 46% he's only allow 35 so so it's 11 I know but how much of that paper walk got rid of the paper walkway would that take 1% away or 2% that's why I was asking where the door was because maybe you could put it you maybe could maybe get rid of that walkway maybe I over just a question if that would even matter yeah you can see what here is actually currently have the Slate or L here and it it's a little bit slippery during the snow and the raining so why replace that to the payor because it's just a hypothetical question to find out if it would even matter might be so Minister it's not did you put together these calculations on area or did somebody help you with that uh uh what do you been you filled out um you had to have certain areas that you were adding like 25 by 25 is 625 square feet like do you have did you put those areas together or did someone help you with that I can Pro uh actually I didn't do the calculation and and I miss David helped you with the calculations uh who helped me DAV yes yes I submit all the fails to her and she do the completion job for me so if we got rid of the Walk matter nope not really I think it probably comes out to maybe 150 unoccupied is still it's still over but it's not much it's only coverage is 5% over 4% it's only 1% any other questions from the board just want to point out to the board that based on the submissions and the testimony presented so far uh the board may want to consider to uh Credit Point right away as to whether this rear yard use is a permitted accessory use in the zone because you're proposing really not a driveway but a parking area in the rear yard of the residents and to demonstrate that a certain accessory uses accessory to a residential home you need to demonstrate that it is customary customary incident subordinate to the principal single family use so that's something for you to also think that any other questions from the board I'll open up to questions from the public anyone here have any questions regarding this application questions okay my name is Ken liby I'm an attorney I represent the owners of 214 Glenn Avenue so wait wait so you represent who uh my neighor Jess Jessica Gordon and Josh moer m o h that right okay just a couple of questions um to clarify if I understand your testimony correctly you have one car that can pull into the garage correct uh not not smoothly turning to the garage because the front tire need to get onto the curb because there a no not enough space to uh uh back into the garage the other car cannot get into the garage yeah well you didn't mention that in your application in in paragraph 16 of your application you say only one car garage attached to house when one car parks on driveway the other car in garage cannot drive out so you can get a car in the garage correct yes okay and when that car is in the garage if it comes in head in can it not back out and turn around and go out head first no no because the other car if it goes here just're just talking about one car right now no it's it's hard because the steps over here is really close to the car garage to the garage door can you imagine that the garage door located over here and if it this one this one back through here it cannot turn that way it's hard well it's a pretty wide garage isn't it uh it's around let me see is that a is that an accurate representation would you like to submit something yes okay I have some photos how do you want me to mark let's little that 01 please and then you can subit it to the board and then you can refer to it once you describe what we're looking at okay oh thank you thanks I might be short a copy so 01 so then Mr Lobby why don't you describe what we're looking at here this is a photograph uh taken from 214 it's actually taken this afternoon shows the garage door shows the uh that's the larger of your cars the Toyota yeah um parked in front of it and um you you can get a very good idea of the width of that garage door opening um and I would suggest that there's no reason for it to be uh trying to back out close to the left side there's plenty of room there no actually the car uh if you if you see that in that picture actually the Toyota hander is much larger you can imagine uh for this door garage actually it uh if the my the smaller car actually is a Subaru and when the Subaru back in over here there's only three feet left on the on the other side the other side for example is close to right side to left side there's only three three three feets so you've got some you've got some swing room at the front end and you have enough width to get in presumably you've got enough width to back out uh to get straight in actually is really hard you you can try that I I have tried that multiple times but you get cars into the garage it's back in and uh okay so you back in yeah so you pull up here back in and drive out I go here but my tears have to get onto the curb which I do not want to happen back in all the way down over here but my wife cannot back in the car all the way through here if I had in I I cannot get into the garage at all um and you testified earlier that you uh you didn't explore any other Alternatives uh yes to this yes did you um consult with anybody um I I didn't consult to anybody and if you wanted to reduce the impervious service MH couldn't you instead of solidly Paving this area MH just put in two rows of papers for your tires two rows of paper what's do I mean that the the part that's under your car wouldn't have paving material under it you mean remove it just leave the the the soil all there or use the rock something to to why grass are you talk let's be clear here are you talking about what was described by the Apple can as the 10 by10 area I am I'm sorry but I ask ask you also rather than proposing things ask him what he's contemplating as opposed to because because you're not the architect or the designer so no you know if he says that he hasn't contemplated anything else he kind of answered the question yeah so you haven't you haven't contemplated any other uh any other approach to this it's really easy if you are use the G the car cannot drive onto the paper right hang on a second sure and the survey that this is based on when was that survey prepared well P the home okay I don't think I have anything for uh anyone in the audience have any other questions for this uh applicant in that case I'll open up for comment anyone in the audience have any comment regarding this application I do but I also have a witness that's okay that's okay um so we're G have to square your witness in also um are you speaking on behalf of your witness or she un she's here I'd be happy to speak on her behalf okay you have a witness bring up the witness we'll get the witness for great I assume this is a fact witness yes okay hi J do you swear Refirm testimony back to G tonight's proceeding do the truth hold truth not of truth I do your name and address for record spelling your name Jessica Gordon J SS I ca Gordon g o r d o n my address is 128 Knob Hill k n o BB Knob Hill Road that's in Milford Connecticut 06467 coun do you want to start or would you like to again I'm sorry who would like to start would you like to start yeah yeah Miss Gordon uh you gave us an address in Connecticut um but you're the owner of 214 GL Avenue is that correct I am yes and how how long have you owned that property 13 years and uh was there a time when you lived at that property yes and uh up until then uh how many years had you lived there I think I just asked you that I'm sorry I um I was born and raised in this town uh graduating class of 01 and um in 2013 we purchased it my husband and I as our first home um my mother and family and everyone has been here for multiple generations and we plan to stay I got pulled away for a short time for work which is why we are currently in Connecticut and kept the house um it's our it's not like we're doing a scheme of multiple properties and we're renting them out this is our only other property and we do plan to move back um the work that we left for is for me to conduct Alzheimer's disease research and we're trying to eradicate that um and there's been some major progress recently and um so upon getting a little bit closer our plan is to move back and raise our family here and we also um had her children here and yeah okay earlier in the testimony there were some some comments from the board about um drainage issues or possibility of drainage issues yes um does that pose any concern for you um so um the property on 216 is the lowest lying of the entire Street um we do get run off from uh from the mountain and behind our houses is the library field which also was you know recently converted to Turf so so I do have significant concerns about um again any further impervious conditions um and the the Backlot is well we we see it I guess we have pictures looks yeah well I don't think this is to scale is what I would suggest but um and you've when's the last time you were at the property today okay and did you observe the the uh construction that had started on the on this new proposed pav area yes it looks about three4 of the way complete and there's a number of pavers um sitting on the property and um does uh does that construction follow the grade of the property or has it altered it is altered I mean it is significantly raised there's I don't know the the leveling ground plus the uh the concrete um border and stone I I don't know what it was what it's particularly called and then the pavers on top of that so there's it's raised I don't have anything for thank you very much um thank you um yeah uh it's not concrete actually under the paper is is the dirt I see the uh construction workers they bring the back of the dirt and uh I know they told me is the paper Base is located uh and the P that over there and use some machine to compact to firm and it's definitely not concrete what the I'm sorry what the oh see yes I I can answer you is that they add a layer of the I don't know uh the brick over there because they try to make that to a level to level the the area did did the contractors raise the grade from the grade when you say this High what is that you're putting your hands apart here is that six inches what is that no no actually that that one is um I 10 to the page five of the A1 okay actually this area of my uh of my backyard is relatively lower and this area is relatively higher and the height differences is around six uh six inches or eight inches I'm not for sure so they add one layer of The Brak over here to lift that and make sure the P the paper area is uh in the same level at the same level that's the reason they saw there's a concrete break on the edge of here is a concrete briak but underneath the paper is definitely not concrete um in that case any further comments from the audience that I'll close the public portion on here uh members what are your thoughts um I I think this application is problematic um you know for for multiple reasons and while I understand the applicant's need for more functional um driveway yes you know I'm concerned that the applicant hasn't consulted with um any professionals about this um I'm concerned about drainage issues um the setback um coverage in general um how out of place it looks I mean you know we don't often have the benefit of seeing kind of a mostly complete project that's coming before us for um a variance but you know in this case we actually could um because it's mostly completed and you know I think it's pretty much out of character for the surrounding neighborhood um to have you know this big kind of parking lot um in the backyard so I'm not in support of it um but again I do understand the applicants need um and want for a more functional driveway I just don't know that this is the best way to go about doing it so to further further just concern I I um our decision is run with the land which means that you're using it for a turnaround but the next owner could use it for a large patio now they have a large patio two feet off the property line which they can make noise they can do whatever they want um and that could be a bothersome use for the Neighbors um the engineering of this is very concerning to me the water issues that I could generate are very concerning to me um the fact that it was done now you're you're actually asking for you know forgiveness rather than permission is concerning to me um and uh while I do understand your issues and it's unfortunate um but these are all the issues you have to deal with when buying a house um so you know I said I do sympathize but I don't think this is the solution and I would not not support this application I Echo everything they've said I I drove by the stop by at your house today and I will say it's a really skinny driveway I totally get what you're saying it's a treacherous road um I could barely get over it with traffic and I went around 4:30 today um and I was concerned to see the construction there I think you maybe didn't realize the permits that you needed so you're trying to turn work I think I would not approve this as it is I think there's drainage issues that concern me um and I think there might be better ways to do this that might meet your needs that would also mitigate some of the drainage concerns I have over in that area so I I would not be in support of this but I do understand your dilemma yeah I mean I agree with the prior comments I I am very sympathetic with your issue because I think you know backing out onto Glenn a is first imp possible at certain times of the day so I think there does need to be a solution but this seems premature little bit and perhaps ill conceived and it seems like if you have you could consult experts who might come up with better solutions that would solve or address the concerns that the board has raised I think you might be in a better position but I think as it's proposed and actually is partially built it just don't think it it works and I don't think I'd be supportive um so in terms of what happens next I think you have two choices one is that you can ask the board to vote on the application or you can ask for the matter to be adjourned to a future meeting I'll talk about that in a second um to allow you an opportunity to take some of the advice from the members of the board and maybe consult with a professional or professionals about your project so that's up to you I need some advice to resolve this situation sorry I need I need some to to some advice from the board yes definitely so I said you have two choices okay right door a or or door B is that we take a vote the board takes a vote right now on your application it's may deny yeah what's that it's may deny if we vote now okay yeah then would you like the opportunity to consult with some professionals okay yes um given the fact that this construction has commenced and it's not permitted that my advice to the board is to provide a very short window to this applicant yes with to engage professionals when's the next time we can hear the case probably as soon as I can hear July 15 okay um so get your professionals together because that's the date okay after that if you don't have it you bring in you bring in some shovels and that thing gets dug up okay okay I understand um so this case will be moved to July 15th no further notice um as Mr livey please keep an eye on the town hall U website and uh if there are any plans that are submitted those plans need to be submitted 10 days before the meeting sure okay um for review okay great okay thank you thank you next up we have calendar 39 8224 18 Willow Street property development okay [Music] want that set up over here or is over there okay over there's fine I mean here so our board members can see it if anyone is here on this case please feel free to come down to the front if you would like a better view of the exhibits my name is Michael boner b o n m e r I'm with the free every Law Group we appeared I guess it was a month or two months ago on a an appeal matter same property same idea um we're here for variance application now um we have I have two witnesses and I also have a representative of the applicant in the event there are any direct questions for for the applicant but we don't plan any direct testimony by him um the architect uh for the project couldn't make it tonight he had a conflicting matter but we have the project manager who works in his office and she was intimately involved in in in the plans and she's going to lay it out as a fact matter if there are questions of a technical nature that can't be answered we would have to bring the architect back is available and we also have a professional planner tonight but I think that the plans are straightforward and and uh I'd like to introduce Paulina mancia I'm sorry so you have a planner we have a planner you have the project manager project manager and who else do you have you have a representative of the applicant uh Dennis Jenkins in what capacity he's he's here in the event there are any direct questions for the applicant that either one of the people can't answer but no testimonies proposed is he an officer of Metro property development he's the sole proprietor yeah okay yeah okay thought so so the board must understand that the testimony from the project manager is not from a professional architect and you are permitted to weigh that in consideration the appliation I'd like to introduce Paulina Mania you just raise your hand you were from testimony given this proceeding be the truth whole truth nothing the truth yes I do your name for the record please spelling your name poly p a u l i n a Manilla m a n c i l l a and just for the sake of clarity you have testified before as a project manager Mr lazarus's office yes I have and and other boards like East Orange and other towns approxim how many times uh I will say 10 okay give T thank and you were familiar with the plans correct involved in their drafting from start to finish I've been totally involved okay um I won't walk you through with questions why don't you explain plans yes and you know as the site exists now and then come out of that are going to be made so if you look at va0 sorry these plans are the same plans that were submitted it's not a new exhibit we can mark it if you want right so uh Pauline if you can just identify what what the uh last revision date is the last revision date is one uh number one is 0430 2024 variant zoning review than you're watching so if you look at the existing site plan what we proposed is first to remove that pave area the existing deck another piece of paved area then the stairs to the deck then remove this whole paved area up to this point where the stairway the front of the house is then remove partially to make strips of the asphalt Drive in order to reduce coverage all of these things were done to reduce coverage yes now what we're proposing in the front edge is to square off the left side of the house which is actually 4 10 by 15 which was this location and then we remove the deck and we propos to square it off to be 243 by 10 ft and square off the rear right side of the house which is 8 5/2 by 8T 1 1/2 either one of those additions increases coverage correct it doesn't because going over existing exactly so we're doing that and we're proposing a second floor story this is a one and a half story house so the first floor additions will yes so the Second Story will be above the entire above the including the additions yes thank you go to the existing which is the sheet VA 1.1 which is the third sheet so I'll walk you through the existing conditions yes the interior of the house the existing conditions you have finished basement and the first floor consists of two bedrooms full bathroom living room dining room kitchen and an out shap Galley going to an existing deck the half story is just one b so if you go back um to VA want Point syrup what we're proposing is existing basan to finish it off add a home office a full bathroom uh tuck in the mechanical room and an open space for family area on the first floor is we keep the existing bedroom we open up the layout we make a dining living room full bathroom kitchen and the new deck the new stairs the new deck is smaller than the yes R correct it's reduced and the new stairs going up to the second floor and also this way going down to the basement and this is the VIS of the TP of you're not I'm just sorry you're not increasing the basement here this is on the basement level there's nothing here it's purely crawl spaces these loc on the second floor we propose two bedrooms a full bathroom and a master suite new roof so on the existing entryway there is no roof above it so for rain snow purposes we just proposed the front steps exist correct and they're not being changed simply putting a roof over them correct just Shed from the rain snow there's an existing front yard variance correct but it's not changing no it's steps AR aren't being moved for Chang no it's not going to be moved or change or anything and if you look at the final one which is what's we're proposing as a final elevation so here you see the front facade which will be vertical siding white with black transs around and a dark color um stone pavers and a dark color shingles and the proposed roof that we're proposing over it this is the right side of elevation will use the deck and then the left side and again the rear which is the full deck with horizontal so the scheme is white and black stally um no habitable space in the Attic no correct and how how do you get access to the attic if and all just to pull up down just to pull down and there's mechanical equipment up there no no to in the basement I believe just double Che yes we do provide so it's going be a two zone system one in the basement supplying the basement the first floor and the one in the Attic is only go to supply for the second floor so it's going to have a two Z and and exterior to the house Landscaping any thing you want to mention on the outside yes the the only Improvement is uh the driveway it's going going to be um 33 ft long or we're going to remove partially and make strips for the car to enter to make it more aesthetically pleas in in between the strips will be Grass Grass correct will grass so your attach Min real quick your attach Min shows you're asking for three variances correct correct what about your side set back those AR compant are they we we followed the Miss David's report on the three variances okay sorry I think it's our six our seven I'll let it go this time yeah continue please that's it I have no further questions for any any questions for uh professional does this area flood not to out of knowledge um I can introduce Mr Jenkins the principal the own second questions they can turn to the do you know or you don't know I I don't know okay that's how any other questions I would point out that we're we are improving the coverage substantially on property by removing papers and things like that but you're still over by ratio 1% the Flor area is actually 6.27 right but the coverage isn't impacted At All by the increase in the F and right because you count the garage is one of the which is inhabitable space and attach but but the coverage isn't isn't affected you know there and this is an oversized lot so there's a fair amount of grass in the backyard but you don't know if it's flood zone I don't know I wanted to ask so you just said that it's an oversized lot for R7 but you have but you're requesting an F variance so I I I I I'd like to understand and it's it's not an insignificant variance I'd like to understand um I I guess you know had you considered other Al like what why is it this alternative that's coming before us with this F Vari well I I think the planner will will explain um better question I'm going to address her question no no but the witness has to address her question right and from a design perspective from a design perspective and consideration for this so basically it was to make it a clean look and very uniformal because there was a bunch of waste of space here this paper had no purpose in life and our client asked us to add it on to the building since we're going to a varians because it's for commodity the the layout if you see the existing layout of the house is really bad it's like a jungle it doesn't fit in the neighborhood it doesn't it really doesn't it doesn't work uh we actually hired a fent tree person to this is a very high Asian market and that's the requirement So based on fent Tre we try to make things work out really nice um for this I I would also put I it was a requesting no not but the design we don't have a fun expert here too um I I would I would also point out um which um Paulina may not have have remembered is the original design of the house did not have the front edition that still would wouldn't have changed the coverage but it did it and and and in the original design they did everything they could to keep the f as close as we could not understanding that the garage was included we were at sorry the original design they've been through several iterations with Mr J part my question you went through multiple itations right the the idea I believe is to make it look like the rest of the neighborhood which is largely um two story homes um and the idea is to make it fit better in the neighborhood um and provide a fair amount of living space so my question for you is why haven't you considered a another Choice it's not basically a why haven't you maybe stepped things in to make it look a little bit more not only interesting but maybe cut down on that well the a what it is is basically the garage it's not the garage everyone has to have a garage put town ordinates so the it's not the garage you have an oversized lot so you're getting the benefit of that as well so I'm talking about the structure itself okay because you you're at 29.1 the ordinance is 38 you're asking for 45.2 s that is an enormous deviation so was there any type of option considered that wasn't just a box on top of a box that may have been a little bit more architecturally appealing and maybe cut down on your on your f did you have those discussions I really don't know I really don't know how to answer here's what I recommend at this point you kind of need the architect here all right because I don't think we're going to get to a resolution tonight without having some discussion with an architect because the the the Giant in the room here is this F all right and I think you can smell what we're cooking up here right but this is a big deviation and you know maybe you know we could work on it a little bit more here to try to get this so the question is basically we had this removed this was at now this addition was now the prior one was just to take this portion which was to square only exclusively this side just because of the kitchen that's all it is and the owner really didn't want to affect or touch the existing foundation so the strategy was we squared off this TP and not added this and the owner asked for this addition okay so it had a play what were you saying the vble matric and we we complied with this it was okay even though the f is still up there do you want to have your planner speak or where you want to go um if if it's okay I would like to have him make his presentation um if you want the architect to come back well I can see where we're going here but I mean let's see what your planner has to say okay okay thanks do you swear from testimon to give in tonight's hearing the trth not the truth yes I do your name for the record Thomas REI RCI address 92 Park AV retherford New Jersey and your qualifications Mo licensed professional planner in state of New Jersey uh member of the American Institute of certified planners I've been accepted by this board uh at the last hearing as well as over 80 other boards throughout the state of New Jersey and New York and standing yes it is all right so you guys have heard um the proposed use the proposed addition um and obviously we're seeking an F variants for the construction of essentially this second floor um addition um now that F includes the existing first floor the proposed second floor as well as that existing garage that's on the property so I'm sure as the board is aware uh the burden approv for the standard for granting an fi variant the Coventry standard specifically that the site continues uh to be suitable and can accommodate the proposed project despite exceeding that F uh and I I truly think we do um so what's permitted with regards to F is 38% and we have 45.2 7% That's proposed so what I like to do in my planning analysis is I like to look and see where we Stack Up in some of the other regulations because I think it's important I think that all the requirements together are what governs uh the size and intensity of a property uh so when we look at lot coverage the ironic thing about the increase in F we're reducing the lot coverage on the property uh the existing is 53.8% and we're going down to 46% so 53.8 down to 46 45 is the maximums we're actually we're almost there 1% away from compliance um with regards to the bill Building height we have an increased F but we're actually under that maximum height by 3 feet there a lot of large buildings in the area that I think are taller than what's being proposed today um so we're under that height with regards to building coverage we're over compliant with building coverage you're allowed 25% of the lot and our footprint is only 20.32 so we only fulfill about 80% of that maximum footprint that we can do with regards to setbacks the rear we're more than twice compliant sides we are compliant front there's a prevailing standard and if no prevailing exists then the 24 feet provision kicks in I imagine that is what was uh utilized when building this house existing to the front face of that facade is 23.9 it almost nearly consists imagining that's due to Shifting the building slightly during construction so I can't argue that the front setb as it stands now is fully compliant but it's it's basically there and the most important thing is that the second floor Edition isn't moving that front facade it's keeping that it's working with the existing building lines that exist uh and then I think of as we've discussed that last hearing garage gets included in that F we don't want to remove it we recognize that the town has a code that requires you to have a garage so while we do increase this f um uh over the requirement we can't remove the we don't want to remove the garage because that that would take that would give us back some f but that would trigger a variance and then the only other option would be not doing the Second Story which as we we talked about most of the buildings in the area are actually twostory dwellings um and I'd like to enter in an exhibit uh that we a photo exhibit of some of the dwellings in the area now this exhibit do you want me to describe it first or hand it out I can describe it as I'm handing it out it is a six sheet photo exhibit showing a couple photos of the property as well as some of the surrounding dwellings right there so this is we're gonna Mark A1 that would be easier next everyone have one so as I mentioned a six sheet photo exhibit uh prepared by Stonefield engine ing design uh dated May 1st 2024 uh site photo one you see the existing uh property it is a one and a half story Cape Cod style dwelling obviously has seen a little bit of wear and tear over time can be you know can benefit from a from the renovation what we're proposing here uh page two shows our property on the right side with the with our neighbor uh to the left obviously it's a you know much taller home two and a half or even three-story dwelling um we'll flip to sheet three I think you guys know where I'm going with this another two or three story dwelling if you count those upper levels uh if they're finished it's tough to tell I haven't been in there but it's a duplex style dwelling uh flipping to sheet four hold on hold on so sheet one is the subject property sheet two is the subject property correct where here is sheet three property in relation to the subject sheet three is three houses down to the right of us on our side of the street and then sheet four is next door to that previous photo so this would be four houses down on our side of the street showing another larger three story duplex and then flipping to sheet five this is actually a Ross the street from them yes yeah this is across the street from the previous photo from four another three-story duplex style dwelling and then lastly photo six this is the next door neighbor of the previous photo so you can see what I'm getting at they're all kind of lined up adjacent to the site all in this neighborhood next to each other and then we flip back to sheet one so so when you compare you really the the the F relief is triggered by adding a second story and as I mentioned the only way to not seek this variance would be to remove the garage or to not do the second story but that's not in line or in character with the neighborhood you could see a lot other bigger dwellings in the area um they're newer buildings they're probably have more modern uh floor plans and amenities so I think that's what this applicant here is trying to achieve now how many those pictures that you show us buildings over I didn't I didn't unfortunately get the opras but so like I can't tell you if they're over or not for sure but they're much larger than than our doly is my question I don't know for sure they may be larger but if they comply they comply I think that's a pretty important analysis because the the you know the house putting cycle four in the house does not seem to be necessarily out of character with the neighborhood but we would I think really need to understand how that property would compare to the other houses that that you're pointing to in they're in the neighborhood I mean Aesthetics are one point but we're looking at it from a municipal Landing standard these all these photos uh tom1 are they all in the a the R7 Zone uh yes I believe so did you confirm that yes yes okay good um they're all on the street that doesn't necessarily mean the and there's no distinction between one family and two family for calculation of f no they have the same requirement so I would I would also ask you in terms of lot size these homes that you're showing these multi family homes are the lots significantly larger than the property question I think there was I think some yes uh there was kind of varying lot sizes in this area it wasn't one I didn't find that there was one um substantially consistent lot size there was probably about three or four different types of lots or sizes in this area but I guess what I'm getting at is is as you mentioned Aesthetics visually whether they had F variances or not I still think this house is being dwarfed by the other dwellings that are on the property this is a standard two-story dwelling it's not I I don't think that it would be I think it's more out of character leaving it like this and not having the additions what standard you so I'm trying to square your testimony here you know in terms of proof dwarfing something is not a term in La so so you're you know you don't have a hardship in terms of your property size right no so so then what standards are you applying to this that you you can't tell me what size the the f is in compliance on any of these other properties you show so it's to assume that they're in compliant because I don't remember any of them come in front of our board these look like pretty new developments okay so if that's the case I'm I'm trying to get understand here the standard isn't like I want it to look like everything else in the street that's not the standard so I'm trying to get your proof your positive negative criteria met here so in the negative the negative criteria is no substantial impact to the public good and the Zone plan and zoning ordinance so when you look at the zone you look at the existing development that exists I think aesthetically it's very in line now with regards to the master plan they actually talk about designing with compatible prevailing neighborhood context and I think that's a very important piece of planning is they might not have F variances associated with those properties but we talk about prevailing neighborhood contacts that could be in terms of building size in uh building massing and I think that what we have here is something that's visually in line with what exists there how many 6.2% 6.2% I don't know I don't know okay sure I have related sure so you said as part of your testimony that you can't put a second story on this house in the F that's given that you need this to put this but that that part's not clear to me and I don't know if you're able to testify to that in further or whether an architect is needed to speak to that point but it's not I I'm not sure I understand right I I would defer to the architect on that but it probably wouldn't be feasible because you would be pinching in that second story and I imagine architecturally I don't know how many bedrooms or bathrooms you'd be able to fit up there but it would probably not look so typical of a home if you had to yeah yeah okay so we have an exhibit um that we're going to enter into the record I guess this would be 82 okay you describe your ENT please and the date in which it was taken this is an aerial exhibit it is dated May 1st 2024 prepared by my office Stonefield engineering design um and what this shows is these numbers here they're basically pointing to the photos of the surrounding developments um that we took pictures of in the handout exhibit um I think what's important to note here is once again we don't know the f um if the F variance is granted to these properties but building Footprints um seem to be a lot larger than the existing dwelling which is basically just adding the which ones you're referring to that are larger Footprints which which next door is larger that's probably a little bit larger uh three and four are much larger about the lock size of three and four those look like double locks it looks like the same width as our lot just so just so we're clear because you guys we need to lay a little bit of a foundation so on A2 it's an aerial exhibit you provided the date you're showing Willow Street you're showing lots and buildings on either side of Willow Street and you have um numerical depictions relating to um arrows to various properties correct that's correct and then on the bottom of A2 I can't see that what does that say it looks like they're numbered do they relate to the addresses that is correct thank the numbers in the circles on this exhibit refer to the photos the numbered photos in the photo exhibit that was entered as A1 so they they correspond directly right number five is picture number five number six Etc that's helpful thank and they and they are identified also down here this is data here like do you have lot sizes do you have square footage of the homes do you have anything other than we do not we just have the photos go to the attachment the engineer does you can see the different the different lot SI right that's yeah I you get an idea you get an idea right would be helpful as to actually have tax um any other further testimony yeah I'll just sum up very briefly um I really think that the proposed renovation and addition is going to bring this more in line with the neighborhood obviously this house has seen some wear and tear over the years it's in need of a refreshing upgrade and I think that's what the applicant uh intends to do I really think that the increase in effect are can be accommodated on this property uh I think the with regards to coverage variants that can be uh permitted under the C2 benefits versus detriments criteria the municipal land use law because we're actually reducing that coverage and then with regards to the um setback that's an existing condition that's associated with with um this existing building um yeah it doesn't yeah that and I I think it was mentioned in the letter about the front setback variants but we found a section of code specifically section 606 3 E1 C where it talks about the R7 front yard setbacks and there's a footnote associated with that that says a variance shall not be required for existing front yard setbacks when a roof and supporting columns is added to an existing front stairs or stoop and the roof shall not exceed four feet in depth and more than six feet from the stoop on any side so I think that that request is because these houses were built with conforming setbacks but it shouldn't prevent you from being able to add that uh front cover right we're we're seeking continuation of the existing variance but but a new variance wasn't correct um no that that sums up the testimony but continue with questions any further questions for our planner here um just that ordinance was 26462300101 which is why IED it for this I know they're in the process of hopefully putting it back but at this point has not been it hasn't been integrated into the ordin back into the ordinance yet so currently it would require yeah talking about three Ines right and you're not exacerbating right correct it's it's just going over the existing steps no no no it's 19.9 they're putting roof so we have to measure to the roof because right now it's not exempt from the okay so this is so your attachment e is incorrect because they went and that's okay we noticed for the 19.9 okay so the okay so 19.9 is what is being proposed correct 19.9 is what exists and the roof is above the steps it doesn't change it roof right right but but 19.9 is the current is the current and proposed FR it's not the current set the stairs are not counting set okay so what is the current 23.9 okay so 23.9 is the existing front yard setback what is being proposed is 19.9 under the ordinances as currently right that's how we noticed it right Ro the front the front right we followed the St this letter yeah okay thank you for the clarification so so just to clarify what is the extent of the variance for the um any other questions for any questions from the audience come on up front here your name name address di bov just spell di a n a b u r a k o v and where you live Rel to 10 10 Willow I'm sorry 10 below 10 10 below and your question and my question is is it a residential one family residential correct yes yes yes and how much is a square footage are you going to make it the architect project manager all together 2,446 can you speak louder so we can hear that 2400 the answer was 2400 2,446 2,446 Square ft is what's being proposed and does that include the garage everything dwelling deck condenser pad garage driveway walkways and front stairs thank you you're welcome thank you thank you um any other questions from the audience okay um then I will comment no no finish I was going to request that it be carried at this point um so that um we can find a date when the architect who is impossible to pin down um and find a date so I can't commit I mean you can dat why don't we I was gonna say I can reach out to you tomorrow after we talk that's fine let's get you a date so that you're on book so to speak and then we can and we'll go look at the tax maps and look at the lot size so the tax record should give us square footage as well and you should be able to do an apples to app comparison or somewhat on the F and I would even maybe suggest that if you look at A1 the first photo it also looks like that there's some bigger buildings in the rear if if you you know do the Google Street View and go down the street this is even when it's completed will be one of the smaller facades on the on the street yes def find the neighborhood uh when do you have available first ju first put it down and then what what would be the next one next one I'm pry sure I'm going to be out of state um around around the 4th of July yeah no no no 15 should be F forget the first yeah 15 okay so for anyone here that's on this application it will be carried till July 15th um if it is changed subsequently uh please keep track of the website of town hall posted and uh there'll be no further notice given U on this thank you thank you I have to ask what's the Titan Fitness timer for sorry timer what the that's for the planning board meeting sorry the TCS they cut you off in three minutes yeah trying to get that here but they won't get exactly give me the hook uh okay so uh all right next up we have calendar 39524 9892 pars Drive Ross minut break real and then we'll get back after we'll do aay right e e e e e e e e e o p e r m a an and Richard Keller k e l l e r okay uh who let start I I would um so to let you know about the 992 uh proposal that's here this evening um my wife and I moved to 98 heart chorn 11 years next month um and in September of 21 we acquired the property uh next door and uh with uh our three boys we had came up with the concept and idea to develop the uh home office for uh my work as well as in-law suites and some recreational use we hired the the architectural firm of uh Clawson uh who happens to be uh present this evening uh and during this development uh we had the idea to uh take two driveways and combine them uh into one and have that opportunity really to remove some black top remove asphalt and kind of create more green space and Landscaping so in that uh we also hired other Professionals of Casey and Keller and Rich Keller uh is present this evening to go into a little bit more detail of that so so real quick so you're building the one structure correct yes right now okay and then you have the existing okay just trying to figure out whole layout this thing very good good evening yeah I'm a licensed professional engineer and planner in the state of New Jersey lied as an engineer since 1989 and a planner since 1990 held a Bachelor of Science and civil engineering from record's University with a concentration in water resources and environmental engineering and I also hold a master's degree um from uh with a concentration Masters in architecture excuse me for the concentration in urban planning and design uh from the New Jersey Institute of Technology where I also taught for proximately 11 years in both graduate and undergraduate divisions I've appeared before this board the planning board approximately 110 boards throughout the state of New Jersey as both engineer and planner I have also provided planning services to the uh to the burrow of Caldwell Board of adjustment and for three years I was the uh engineer to the township of lill uh my licenses uh brand new ones just came about a month ago so they were all in good stad and it's nice to be back before the board very good your license in good shape yes it is great thanks so much please proceed yes um the the property in question is 90 8 and 92 I'm pointing actually to U part of your package here this variance application with sheet one variance map um and the uh uh the property if we look at the area map up on the right hand corner is uh the left side is number 98 right side is number 92 heart chorn 13 and 14 respectively um the uh the two properties are located holy within the R3 residential Zone properties behind us on Wong are in the R4 and the property across the street is roughly 32 acre uh bard of Ed property known as the Oki tra um the property basically sits about mid block between High View to the west or left and watch Run Road to the right uh as indicated the um well you just Brickly we go over the size of the properties both are fully conforming Lots they both are larger than the 29,000 foot required they both exceed both the minimum lot width and lot depth for the Zone uh 98 archor being um 121 ft wide by 26 7 ft deep and having about 3 3,940 ft and that is as Ed that's where he and his wife and his uh his three um growing boys uh lived they had the opportunity to purchase the property next door which was a Spanish Colonial House in some state of disrepair back in 2021 late um and what they uh that lot itself is 115 ft wide by 267 ft deep uh that is being a little small at 3,704 um obviously both are larger than 29,000 Square threshold the left property is owned by Ross and Rachel um not from Friends TR um and the right the right property uh is actually owned by suo Holdings which is an LLC which which Ross is the sole owner in uh so we're here without an attorney today Ross is the applicant but he is the sole member of the state the um when they uh when they what really they s uh CLA and Architects to do was work within the existing footprint of that um of that two-story house uh and reduce it to one story uh and integrate it and then fill up Pro uh fill up the uh the program which is really to reimagine the home as a one story home office uh in-law suite uh guest suite and a uh a recreation space for the cooperman and their and their children so while they this is a this meets the criteria of a home it's it's a dwelling on it own it has bedrooms it has uh uh it has bathrooms it has a kitchen Etc um it really serves as a as an ancillary um space for the cooperman but it is on its own freestanding lot it's not not going to be merged there's a number of these cases uh we have in town between uh Taylor and and Forest there's a number of of areas in town where this is this is not completely uncommon uh but uh the house on the right which is under construction required no variances uh as uh it's under construction ruction it also had a grading permit approved and I had a in control permit approved so it's all under construction fully licensed the um the uh if I go to just the uh the proposal as was indicated I'm going to go to my exhibit A1 which is our photo board this is uh photo board number one exhibit A1 dated 520 20124 all photographs were taken by myself this last Saturday afternoon uh May 18th and the photograph number one is the view of heart Drive 98 in the background the driveway into 92 in the foreground and you can see there's a driveway that rises steeply uh out about 18% up to a level area and there's the driveway from 92 right next to it and there's around the Sea of paven there's about a 45 foot uh curve cut from one end to the other um there was an opportunity in photograph number two actually shows the driveway uh into service the on story home um we saw the opportunity of two driveways uh 16 ft in width um 16 and a 12 a little little little smaller on the right uh we saw an opportunity to actually since the houses will be used as one to merge those into a single driveway the problem is is our ordinance requires that driveways in the R3 and the R4 Zone need to 5 feet off the property so uh if this was the r five or six there is no setback we could we could cross properties with the driveway because what we'd like to do is use utilize the left driveway in a slightly altered configuration and then turn into a reduced uh driveway uh facing the garage doors on 92 we have two driveways that are less than 5 feet off the uh property line I would point out right now um neither of those two driveways that are there currently don't meet the existing requirement whereas you're supposed to have 5 feet and 5 feet which gives you 10 feet between them our driveways are as little as 5T apart as it is um the Landscaping that exists between the dwell between the two as well as all in front of the of the of cman property is all Landscaping that the cman put in and I think it's it's uh we showed it to show evidence of the type of landscape um that they and the care uh they take the Aesthetics and plantings in the home and that would continue across the front and as indicated photograph number three excuse me is standing right across the street you can see again a relatively uh U very low long linear not long but linear horizontal house very unassuming uh and it gives us the opportunity by taking over at the driveway to really do a complete Landscaping plan we will do long linear plan things to sort of reinforce that horizontality bring up trees to sort of block some of the windows uh and it's an opportunity to get rid of at least 900 square feet of Pavement in the process photograph number four was actually a picture of the existing uh Landscaping at the existing home again just to show the type of landscaping most of that is going to be remaining one of the other features um that they're looking to do since we're reworking the driveway was the driveway comes up steeply at about 18% um on this little Chevron shape and then it drops down at about 15% 16% we're looking at bringing the driveway right from the house we can cut the the slope to about 15% um reduce some Pavement in the area there'll be um there'll be a larger sidewalk but it's another opportunity for for uh terracing some Landscaping up to the existing building the uh the net result is that um we do need uh variance relief for the two driveways being less than five feet right now on the existing property the 98 property on the left there's an existing non-conforming conditions as it relates to front uh front yard um coverage so we exceed the 30% front yard coverage on the left side property uh at 39.2 but actually by reworking the driveway um even though we're consolidating on one property we're dropping that to 36.8 so we're not getting down to 30% but we are getting closer to the uh ordinance requirement while losing um 935 square ft on the 92 site and met a 48 increase on the right side that's because we are adding some walks to go between the property but the net is a is a reduction of about 8 90 880 ft plus or minus um the I think the blue stone uh walk in the front may be deleted so it's still work in progress but we'd like to uh before we fully develop the landscape plan we wanted to come before this board and get relief for the uh for the zero setback on the driveway um obviously this is not a uh a C1 there's no hardship here this is where we think it's a better planning alternative it's an opportunity the see2 flexible variants where we think the proposed plan is a better alternative than a legally a legally performing one um and the purposes of the land use act that are Advanced are safety um we're taking two drives ways that exist as you saw in the photos spiritually side by side eliminating any conflicts I'll I'll be the first one to admit there's not a lot of residential movements out of single family dwellings but it's it's is an opportunity to separate those driveways and get rid of a large curb cut as we all know hard is a is a a major walking Street in the afternoons and in the mornings for children dogs Etc and TR across from the Yi track across the street uh the other thing I think that we're enhancing in terms of the uh the purpose of the land use Act is we're making a more attractive condition by allowing for landscape opportunities by taking out that entire driveway and allowing for uh for intense Landscaping similar to the uh to the level of care and detail that the C have have shown on their existing dwelling um we think that uh uh it there's no negative criteria to the public there's no disadvantage to the public it's actually a safer condition and I see nothing contrary to the intent and purpose of the master plan zoning ordinance uh we're looking to maintain um milour Short Hills as residential uh character as a community of uh a residential community of highest character I think this is just reinforcing I think it's a great U project um I think that uh I couldn't find any old pictures including on street view of the of the old uh Spanish colon uh Spanish Colonial that was in significant disre I think uh I think and and I have to say of of all the of all the modern houses I SE go up on Archer and I think this is about the most understated and elegant we've seen so far so I think it's a good application I think uh B wants to do good things for the neighborhood the property and we hope they approve so real quick T approved what would it take to unwind it he basically put the second driveway back in again would you need a variance you do that correct I would only need um I may need a variance because I might actually I'm not sure because of rework in this area I'm I'm if if I needed a variance with possibly be to do a slight bump up in the front yard coverage on the current lot it wouldn't be as high as it is now but there might be a slight bump I can't guarantee but I think we could actually if we had to unravel it um believe me the way this house is designed it's married to this house for a long time but if if if there was a market and and the cooperman or their heirs in 100 years decide to sell it it could be unraveled by just taking that landscape out putting that back in you would not need a variance on 92 I'm just not guaranteeing 100% I might need some slight deviation front on 98 would you think about putting an easement for the second lot the drive um you're saying that the second of the house to the 92 is is this freestanding house with it's own kitchen fanom and so on y would you have a driveway easement that would allow them to access over that in case it does transfer to somebody else I think if they sold it they would put one in um I think the reality is if the cman were to sell that house they would unravel I I think at that point because if you look at the way we're we're planning on using it um we're taking out fair amount of pavement at the back um so you pull it in you back into this area so they really are wed I think if if the cooperman's and again I can't imagine the way this has been designed it would ever be sold separately but I think at that point you would unravel it you would go back to uh putting the curb where it was before you'd kick it out to meet the 5 foot requirement and you reinstate a driveway 5et off on the right side and put it back back out can the house exist as a house or not really yeah it can it's can be an independent do this horseshoe I could live there my family could live there har does the Horseshoe driveway currently exist yeah the course the Horseshoe driveway um do it apparently I'm G to mark this it's going to make it a actually I'm just going to point it out on the if you look here you can see the driveway comes up and it makes a a flat spot in comes right back down it's about 18% up and then back down about 15% so it does exist currently it's uh it's underneath the uh faintly underneath the you can see it's it's much closer so we're moving the driveway about 15 feet further back from the house we're putting a series of Terrace um patios or Landings up to the front door just to make sort of a a more appropriate entrance into the house you might have said this but just to confirm are there any other double houses like this in Short Hills or milour Township that have this sort of double driveway or driveway serving to Independent [Music] um it's a good question I'm not sure I do I do a lot of other towns actually encourage it so we do it out do a lot of work out in paring Township or we do out and they encourage you do that certainly um other communities too but um you know look I'll be the first to say if they were to unravel then you get who's who's plowing you know was your driveway was your car bark mine but I think that you have an opportunity for the next um foreseeable future these two properties and they've really been designed so while this is an independent home and I could live there uh it's a it's essentially uh a one-bedroom home with a beautiful kitchen and some great Recreation space um but it's not it's not really what you think of is going to you sell it in a heartbeat be be a unique buyer so I think you're really wetting these two and I have to I have to thank uh lost for putting his money where his mouth is and and and making that commitment so the fact is it'll unlikely it'll ever be sold could it be absolutely um and then you would just I I I think before you did an easement and before you did a cross easement and arrangements for plowing you would take out the driveway and put another one back in property and what is the width of that driveway after it enters currently it's uh 16 and a half on each side we're proposing 15 15 okay 15 wide y okay thank you any other questions any questions from the audience for Mr B for the applicant any comments regarding this application that close public portion can I just before the board deliberates just a couple things to to keep in mind is that you know variances run with the land you hear all the time about personal circumstances and people want to do this and want to do that for their own personal situation whatever it may be whether it's the type of car they drive or something different um and so certainly if the board were inclined to entertain a variance application I certainly would encourage the board to require as a condition of approval or conditions of approval um the formal establishment of a a cross access easement with a maintenance agreement with regard to this driveway because you never know what's going to happen in the next hundred years and if it turns out that the applicant wants to or the applicants two different Property Owners want to sell one of the properties Etc you may not know about that and and if they want to um change up the EAS or change up the driveways then then they can come back to the board and explain the circumstances it gives a better and frankly I think it's much more consistent Municipal land law in understanding the variance the land person to motion opene we would have no problem it's actually more work for me which is nice but we have no problem with doing it because obviously um Dr Therman can change an eement in the future so um if they decide to unravel and sell it they can extinguish those Visa so we have no problem with the formality if it gives the board a bigger Comfort level um we have no problem with that I mean you know these properties you know in in the zone are zon for one family homes that's what the Zone requires and I think that again if the bo is inclined to Grant the application that we should treat them as such any problem I close the public portion uh any other comments the board yes I'll go wait I I think that um you know with the houses being married to each other I think this makes sense and I do think the prudent thing for municipal landuse law would be to um you know to to impose the eement requirement of them you know formalizing that so yeah I know you this you know um essentially that said it would be nice to make sure have that in place because I you know what your kids do what everyone else does who knows right you never really know what may happen to this property or how it will wind up ending up so to speak so you know at least are some way to get a driveway back in there Mak sense other than that I'm gonna say I have a unique personal experience my parents' house where I grew up in Maryland actually has a driveway that joins their neighbor's driveway I to tell you it looks like a landing pad it's really weird and you drive down the neighborhood these quaint little homes and them two driveways that now they're double driveways which is different than what you're proposing you're proposing one one conduit for both houses but um when I saw today when I drove by beautiful home on the left Exquisite home on the right honestly in terms of modern houses I can't stand them but that one is so cool really beautiful but I just thought what a shame I just feel like it's going to ruin it um and may maybe I could be convinced if you put something um in the resolution that says that that it will be that you will take the responsibility for I'm doing it in the event that either house is sold because I feel like it it's this beautiful back there it's idilic oky track just gorgeous and then this like weirdness um I'm uncomfortable with it but I could be convinced um listening to my colleagues any other thoughts I have a motion approval with the condition sorry yes and the condition is that the property the applicants will establish a cross access and the Seas and a form to the satisfaction of so does that translate to he will undo it if either house sold no that's that's a separate condition that's up to the board the board wants to impose that condition that would have to be part of the motion because once it sells what happens well I would not impose that condition because you don't know whether they're selling these two lots together as one thing or they're selling them separately and that's but it could be it it could be but then there's the cross access easement and the maintenance agreement so that it's clear that you're shareing your driveway and then if they want to unwind that themselves they can but well but but there there's two there's two concepts here first concept on Cross access and talks about legal permission to come on to each other's property and to maintain who's going to maintain snow plowing cracks and the ETC the separate issue is wait a second do we really want two single family homes to have a Shar drop from a planning perspective as you're driving down the street and what do we want to see you're not see so that's up to the board but I'm saying they're two separate legal conss to consider it's hard to put in constraints of sale I mean I think that's something that they would have to do at that time Ian if think you decid to break it up they're going to deal with it so that was goes back to my question was are we creating Pandora's box of of variance relief to put driveway back in and doesn't seem like that's the case but the other thing is I feel like we spent a lot of time on this board talking about consistency in neighborhoods and this is clearly not consistent U Mr ker couldn't name one other property that had this in M Township so so I guess put it another way if one of the properties changed hands and one of our families moved in two separate single family operations and they have a share dve is that okay well maybe but that's that's the issue cross the street from me you go so actually yeah 89 stewart9 Stewart has it go back back yeah the Johnson's and yeah Sor so uh so anyway um as we have a motion on the table so um but this is just what the E not with the requirement if the house corre that's I'm making I'll second that Joseph Coffield yes Shan Drew herani yes Amy Lawrence yes Gary Rosen yes Regina truid no Jessica Glenn yes hi clner yes good luck with the project thank you all right and lastly this evening we have 46 St application 39 8124 [Music] than Mr speaking this evening want with both your out scre everybody just raise your right hand you swear from testimony that given reing you tell truth truth yes your name to the rec Matthew Rost John R Dave Ros R who would like to start I start great hi we're Donna Matt Roston first I want to thank you all for taking the time to listen to our application we have lived in our house for 11 years and we love our house in the neighborhood we live across from Oki tract which is great to have nature right across the street um we feel that this is our forever house but over the years our needs have changed and we would like to make some improvements the garage has always been a sticking point because when we pull in we have to be very careful not to bang car doors against each other or the wall so we would like to increase the garage space Also we'll hopefully have um our kids driving very soon and we'd like to be able to put the cars indoors our kitchen is an awkward layout where um when everyone comes in they have to walk through the narrow middle of our kitchen so we would like to improve that we entertain family a lot for the holidays and ideally I would love to have a kitchen where everyone could congregate and not be standing in the way while I'm cooking and while improving the house we would like to renovate our bathrooms and improve the bedrooms for our kids so we are adding one bathroom and two closets upstairs we are here for three variances that Dave will now go into and again thank you for your time and consideration qualification work please uh licensed architect in uh New Jersey New York uh New Hampshire um a partner at Rosen Kelly Conway in Summit I have appeared before this board many other boards my license is in good stand standing anything AC thank you I know we have some neighbors here because nobody else would stick around this late into the evening so I just want to make sure that if you if at any time you want to see something or if I say something and you have a question I'm glad to uh move things around but I don't want to block the board members at the same time okay so we are here for three variants as Dawn mentioned uh first I just want to describe what the a little more about what the project is and then I'll go into what the three variances are uh so you can see in the photo over here you can see the front of the house you can in terms of evidence so we have a sort of a photo board consisting of appears to be six right yes so is is the is the sheet right okay that's where I'm going so you're this is an enlargement of the photo that's at the top center of the photo board that you have we're not going to mark it separately whatever you prefer yeah it's not new information it's just bigger y go ahead uh okay so you can see a few things here one is you can see the front of the house you can see the oky track on the um across the street and you can see see that the road bends around um bends around through the left what we're uh what we're proposing on the front of the house is to add a third garage Bay we didn't come all the way with a new garage Bay to the front we've come out nine and a half feet and then we're adding another two feet in the back uh just to to get the total amount of space that we would need for the third garage Bay uh so that third G garage Bay causes two variances uh one is front yard setback where the uh the requirement is 40.1 it's currently 39.5 and the proposed is 30.8 okay and the second variance that the third garage Bay causes is being a third garage Bay because in the R5 Zone where this house is located two garage Bays are permitted and a third garage Bay is only permitted by by variant so both of those are uh both of those variances are related to the front of the house and in the board over here V6 which is the elevation the exterior elevation the front of the house you can see that there's no change in the silhouette it's really just a piece that comes forward one story uh on the the far right of the house and when it comes out toward the front that is full is directly in line with the left side of the house so there's a straight line that's how far we came out that's why it's a little bit of a an unusual number of 9.6 feet which is not quite enough to get a whole garage but we made it so that those uh those two would align now when we do that because the road around it's a little more it's difficult to maintain the front yard setback sorry the front yard setback that exists across the rest of the house and so that's why there's a variance for that and then at the back of the house uh and you can see it in the photo board that was just mentioned directly below that in the center on the bottom is a photo of the back of the house then blow this up but there are two wings that project out and the goal of this project uh relating to this is to make the kitchen sort of a regular kitchen with an island um and to add as Dawn mentioned a bathroom and two closets in the space above and in looking at the the rear elevation you can see this space in here is the piece that's added it's about a foot back from one side and about two feet back from the other so it doesn't come all the way out but it substantially improves the layout of the kitchen and this one uh along with the garage is the is the reason for the Third variance which is floor area ratio floor area ratio is allowed to be 30% currently 28.9 so it's a little under and we're going to 33.7 so 3.7% over on the floor area ratio and that floor area ratio includes both the first floor second floor and the garage so that's that's it's the sum of those uh those three areas that cause that um in looking at the floor plan I think I'll just abandon this other diesel too hard to get get there in looking at the floor plan the as D mentioned the existing kitchen is awkward particularly for a house of this size when you come in from the garage or from the outside you come into the breakfast area there is no mudro uh except that there are a lot of shoes and things in the breakfast area and the kitchen you then have to come through the kitchen so that you could reach one hand on the stove one hand on the sink and all of the traffic coming into the into the house has to go through the working part of the kitchen and so what we're uh what we're proposing what we would like to do is to change that to make a more typical kitchen with an L of cabinets and then the island in the middle and then the breakfast area we've moved over half in the existing space and half in the addition and that has allowed us to do a mudroom closet and Pantry in the area that was that's the current uh breakfast area so that's the that's the scope of that um in looking at the property the property has the property gives more than half of its space over to the public side it's on a corner the address is on East har but the house actually face faces Oki and is directly across the street from the Oki tra as you saw in the first photo and so more than half of the property is on the public side and it just it's just lawn that wraps around and then there's the house and then there's a small area sort of a triangular area in the back which is sort of the private space when we go back to the photos we can see that private space in the center in that same photo in the center on the bottom and the Roston have put up a row of aravi against the against the fence there in order to provide property both for themselves and for their uh their adjacent neighbor and in the photo in the lower left you can see that there's there's quite a limited space uh between the driveway and and those uh those Riders the the addition back here is compliant in its location it's compliant in building coverage lot coverage it's just not in floor area ratio because of the way the existing house uh was built this is barely visible to anybody the way that the street is it's not possible to see it from the street and for the neighbor who lives in the adjacent property on the other side of these arivi the arivi tend to block out provide the separation and the Privacy at the first floor and on the second floor there are no windows on that side of their house so we were we were careful in our consideration of that um and and so as I mention mention it sort of fills in there going back to the first part of the presentation which was the garage you can see the garage on the end of the house and this photo on the upper right and sorry if it's a is it too far away you have and then the prop the the driveway is fairly close to the property line is parallel with the property line and there is some plants in between and the neighboring house um uh facing the rosman's house the neighboring house to the right has their driveway and garage also facing um this part of the property now it's relatively thin in terms of planting between the two garages um and we don't have a landscape plan but we'd be glad to add uh whatever was desired either by the board or by by Neighbors in order to provide more more privacy if that was desired uh between the two garages sort of looking at each other but again there's no there are no windows on the first floor this is a two-car garage this as I understand it is a just a smaller enclosure it's not a full garage um like a garbage Canon closure uh that also faces this side there are some um there are some Windows uh sort of diamond shaped up above but but other than that there are no other windows that face directly to this nonetheless we'd be glad to provide and you're not really add any windows on your structure correct just next right and and looking at the side of what we're doing on I think it's V7 you can see that the garage that side of the house all of the upper part Remains the two-car garage we're actually shifting that by adding two feet in the back in order to prevent the whole additional garage coming too far forward and then adding the additional garage by there and as you can see in this elevation it's lined up as I mentioned with the the other side of the of the front of the house um now as I mentioned in this in the R5 Zone uh the expectation is 14,500 Square ft this property is 177,000 uh I'll just say 177,000 and change and so one of the questions that um that the board has to answer is whether the property can sustain the additional development and I think that by having the building coverage con conforming the um the lot coverage conforming and each of these other statistics that we're not touching it there is the corner of the front uh which is which is in the variance uh for the garage and just look at that again on that first floor plan going back to V3 you can see that the area of the variance goes diagonally from the corner of the garage to sort of the corner of the existing garage so it's half of that it's triangular section because the road bends around here um and the purpose of this third garage is really to be able to get garbage cans and an additional car off of the driveway which is right against the property line and get it into the garage so that it's um so it's not just sitting out there I think that that makes the property more attractive uh to the people who uh who walk or walk their dogs in the neighborhood and I think that it's a um a little bit nicer uh for the for the neighborhood this neighborhood is essentially surrounded by larger properties um so this is this is a piece of the zoning is this a new this is new so let's mark this a want me to mark it or would you like to all right A1 or A2 describe for us this is a portion of the bur um zoning map with a couple of things marked on it there's it says subject property which is here which is right out at the corner of this collection of R5 uh properties surrounded by either conservation areas uh Greenwood Gardens um the reservation and old Short Hills Park and then oky track and then round it is R4 it's in the slightly darker beige and in the lighter beige is the R3 so it's this is considered as oneir of an acre these are half an acre and these are roughly 2third of an acre now the houses that one would think are across the street since there's nothing at the Oki track if you look at the dead end on hardn I'll just turn it for you okay um all all of those houses going along that dead end have three or four car garages and on Oki Road as it comes toward Woodfield there are three houses here that are in this R5 Zone and then the first house that's in the R3 that has three garage Bays I didn't go through the whole rest of it um some of them face the back and I'm not even with aerial photos it's a little difficult because of some of the trees and so on this this one is just the one that uh I marked because that's a the bigger historic one that has four garage Bays even though it's in the R5 anyway so I just have that as the context for what's in what's in this immediate neighborhood that one might perceive is if they're walking and so on um I don't think that in this case it doesn't feel to me when I drive or walk in this neighborhood I don't see those Zone zoning distinctions um it's not like some neighborhoods where the houses are a very different style or they're they're much narrower or the side yards change a lot it feels pretty consistent there are different ages of homes so that as it goes around on Woodfield some of the houses are a bit older um but it feels consistent to me and I would have to look on the zoning map to know whether there was a different Zone and whether there were different requirements and therefore whether it was allowed to have two garage Bays or three garage Bays I would have to look at this map in order to know that but in just walking around the neighborhood I don't I don't feel that distinction get question where's the applicant's property if you could just it is right here it's at the subject property and it's it is just just to be clear about that also what you're saying if I'm understanding this right is that these houses with the red dots are R3 right so uh these are actually R4 okay and our property is R5 yes and is there there's nothing marked on here in R5 that has a three Car Gar and and was correcting me that there's a house uh two or three around the block on East uh hard shorn that has three I think I just drove some of the the ones that were facing the front I could see the ones facing side the side were harder and the ones in the back I looked online and tried to look at aerial photos but it was just difficult to see some of those and and people who live in this neighborhood would have a better sense of that I just did the ones that I could tell fairly easily effectiv right across the street are three bar gares these are three or four yeah and you can I'm glad to show you this I don't know that I haven't indicated you can look I'll just you pass it around but just graphically one of the things that struck me is that sometimes when there's a change in zone you see that immediately on a a a zoning map or a tax map where the properties are definitely a different size some of those are quite big one of those that's in the R4 could easily qualify for R3 but that's rather than trying to pick each property it's sort of grouped together as a neighborhood and what I'm just trying to show is that my sense of the neighborhood is not like there's a distinct boundary these should have two these should have three or these should have four that surrounding this um is kind of mix that's that's the way I perceive it so your lot is is technically oversized from R5 right yes so would you say that that what you're doing on your property is more akin to what would R4 size lot would normally have yes and it's halfway between R5 and R400 short but like 2500 over whatever it is right so you're like almost dead in the middle of right R5 off yes and that's part of that is a corner property Corner properties tend to be a little bit bigger in many towns if somebody's creating Lots they want the corner lots to be about 20% larger just because again so much is given over to the public side with two front yards um and so they usually make those properties a little bit bigger so that is what what I'm presenting that this property is at 177,000 roughly 200 it's it is sort of Midway kind of between the R5 and the R4 and that to me puts it midway between two garage bays and three garage Bays recognizing that we're not counting halves got it any questions yeah I was just going to mention that since it's a there's a floor area ratio as a part of this I just wanted to um comment on some of the things the positive and negative criteria um for the floor area ratio uh we do need five votes um in favor out of seven voting so uh on there was a project narrative that was submitted with the the app application in which I addressed a lot of these things and I'll just run through some of them um so as I've said the subject property borders the R4 Zone where three garage spaces are permitted and several properties in the vicinity mostly in the R4 have those three garages uh the garage does not um it does not impact and nor does the addition in the back it doesn't impact the character of the neighborhood I think I mean it's obviously Vis the garage is visible in the front but it doesn't distinctly change the character of the neighborhood there are no neighbors directly across looking back and there aren't there isn't another house directly behind looking straight at at the addition we're doing in the back there are neighbors on uh as this wraps around the corner there are two neighbors there and we've tried to be um aware of their the possible concerns they may have but they're here so they they'll certainly present it better than than I could anyway um the garage addition does eliminate the need to keep a car outside it keeps the garbage cans in one of those photos you can see the garbage can outside it would be nice to be able to put those away so that goes to sort of the um the in the New Jersey municipal land use law it's promotion of a desirable visual environment just make making it look nicer the rear addition is very well screened with the addition the existing arbiv hedge and limited visibility from the neighboring property and the rear addition is no closer to the property line than any portion of the existing house um and I feel like the appearance of the house is enhanced and uh just with regard to the negative I don't think that there's anything that is being proposed here which is substantial enough with a negative impact either on this property or on the neighborhood or on the character of the neighborhood the utility or the value of the neighborhood that would uh constitute a substantial detriment to the public good which is one of the standards and there are will not be any additional or undesirable noise glare odors or any other kinds of burdens on the adjoining property um or the neighborhood itself so I that I just wanted to present those items and then I'm glad to answer any questions is there a third story being added with those Dormers or they just separative no it's it's um the there's no third story there the Dormers exist this is the front of the house where the Dormers exist and in the back there's nothing it's just a shallow pitched roof that only extends up on enough of an incline to shed the water okay so they're Flor F uh the third floor Dormers in the in the front they're just at it right they're just right the stair doesn't go up there's you're not adding space up there you're not add we're not touching that okay thank you did you give any thought to instead of pushing the garage to the street pushing the come up with there you put garbage cans in things like that room for doors open um were you asking about whether to put the garage in the back well to the instead of to the street side to the back side yeah we did we we've been working together for much longer than um Don and and Matt were expecting because we've gone through a lot of versions of this we did try to do that the um the compromise that we arrived at was adding two feet in the back but again if you look at V1 you can see that it's quite limited the amount of space that they have in the backyard is is quite limited compared to the size of the property and we considered coming straight back but then the garage was sort of right against where we're proposing a patio um so we did consider consider that and we felt that we would come here with the plan that we felt was better for the way that they would use their property but you could not make it a third Bay just make the two bays bigger lider yes that's another possibility that we've discussed many times so that as you mentioned garbage cans bikes some gardening things those sorts of things um could move into that back area in fact sort of related to this question what I what I'm thinking about like you're on the F you're I believe you're 3.7% over yes and when you think about it as a percentage that's not it doesn't Stand Out dramatically except when I think about it in terms of the size of house right so if if these numbers are right that looks like 644 square ft at the 3.7 is that accurate that's my that sound that sounds about right yes uh I I have that on one of the um actually the engineering drawing has something on that we'll go with we'll go with that number I'm sure that it's so along the lines of uh what you were just discussing I'm wondering you know have did you consider other ways to to be in line or more in line with with the allowed F requirement it seems like a lot of square footage to me to be over yeah well I think that part of the impact on this is the statistic and some of it is sort of the way that that feels uh if you're if you're in the neighborhood how much of that do you perceive um I think that the addition in the back which is about 2third of that it's sort of onethird in of the garage onethird is the kitchen breakfast area and one3 is the um two closets and a bathroom um other than from some vantage point in the backyard of of the neighbor the adjacent neighbor other than that it's difficult to see the addition in the back and so the question I think is just about the the the drive sorry the garage in the front that's a piece that comes out the road bends around and I mentioned before that we're aligning that with the wing that comes forward uh on the left side of the house so we consider a variety of things one of the problems is that a garage in order to be a garage different than the idea of having the two-car garage and then some additional storage space to add a garage we have to add at least 200 square fet um or a little bit more than that to make it sort of fit right now the garage is 20 by 21 so that's you can get cars in there it's a little bit tight sometimes depending on how somebody Parks whether there's anything else stored in there that kind of thing I I don't know if that answers your question we did consider and we've gone around and around and then around again with different options and what we're presenting is one that we feel is is a reasonable request um both by the statistics and by its impact in the neighborhood any other questions from the board any questions from the audience uh your name and address pleas uh my name is Ilana Martin i l e a n a last name is m a r t i n my address is 61 Hilltop Road I'm the next door neighbor with the driveway that's continuous sure so question for you yes did you explore um using the existing um breakfast room for the kitchen and then where the kitchen that's a smaller space as the breakfast room so you didn't have to add all that square footage uh yes we did although again we were trying to also at a mud room and and get all of those things because right now there's a twoot wide closet 2 feet by two feet that's it of what's of what's there so with the access from the garage and from the backyard or just coming off the driveway at the cars park there we wanted to be able to have a mud room where uh there was room for closet and all all of those things I've been inside the house because I was friends with the old neighbors um I just have maybe a question question for the board no no the appropriate time right now just questions for the witness okay so what what is really the hardship as I can see a little bit of the hardship with the front because it you know the way the the house sits in the property but what is the hardship with relationship to F the the property is not under size and the house as it ex as it stands is almost 5,000 square F feet it's not a small house but any stretch um and you trying to make the house almost 5800 Square ft that's a lot of square footage this is not at the minimum this you're not asking for like a little bit of additional square footage to accommodate the garage you have like 180 square feet to play with if you only enlarge the garage you almost comply with the F but here you're just adding for you're asking for a lot of square footage for a lot of additional square footage footage and I see your point that it's in the back and but you know if if each property gets bigger and bigger and your question here sorry so that my question is what is the the hardship okay so there there are several ways to uh that New Jersey municipal land use law addresses that and one is the structures that are legally existing on the site and this that's with the existing house and can be um the the existing structure and the way that it's organized and the scale the rooms and where they are and although it may be possible to do all kinds of changes all throughout the house um there are there there's an acceptable hardship in um in the that this is the way that the house is and there isn't if there isn't a real practical way to achieve the goals and the test is whether the property can sustain the additional development well I lived next door to that house for 27 years and that house looks really big on that piece of property once again just time for questions so you have time to make comments htop htop well Hilltop is like parallel to East Hardon my house also faces OK even though the address is ont yeah so you're yeah um yeah we have time for comment if you'd like to make a comment any other questions or uh Mr Rosen or then I will move to comments so if anyone has any comment regarding it please come on up someone's coming question yes if you remove the garage Edition where are you on F if we currently we're at 33.7 if the garage addition is removed both front and back it takes off 27 279 square feet which is 1.6 little over 1.6% so it would be reduced from 3.7 over to 2.1% over so you're still over yes still over but 2.1 instead of 3.7 okay um as mentioned uh we're going and switch to comments if you have a comment please come up um we swearing you in okay so please raise your right are you both speaking raise your right hand to s from testimon about G tonight be truth false truth another the truth yes I do your name and address you got to keep your voice off oh yes I do name and address U my name is way white Ling just spell it Wei Wei last name link l i n address address 44 East horon Drive okay were you in relation to this the property question where do you live in relation to it uh right next door yeah okay right there okay um and you're not going to be speaking today cor okay that's fine it's where you went as well okay so go ahead okay sure uh good evening so I my name is l I'm the property owner of 44 Easter hon Drive Right explore to our neighbor and at 46 East of so I am here tonight to raise several concerns we have about the proposed two story addition to the back of the property so I have with me some photos that I believe are very important so what these photos Tock is that yes that okay fine so basically your neighborhood around your home is right hold on a second sorry we're going to label that okay so can I just hand them out with now so what are you is what you're handing out what is being shown right here the six photos yes okay so um you can hand it out we're going to mark that as 01 okay with today's date all right so um so these photos are not being included in the various application documents for these rest and I'll pass I'll take them all thank you sure let me just ask you did you did you take these photographs yourself yes and when did you take them um this past weekend I'm sorry weekend like this past weekend Saturday the 18 okay that okay okay okay so um so so this is the photo number one this is the the Google SAT live view of 44 uh a 46 Easter har and a 44 Easter har short um this is 46 that uh requests the variance and this is our building so this is the property l here right here okay so as we can see this is a very unique situation because the building of 46 East horon is very close to our backyard and our house um and the you know the second floor windows are directly overlooking our backyard and our house um so this photo number two is the photo that I we took from our backyard um this building the house um seems to be very large due to its size and proximity to our backyard to the property line um we have additional photos here like number three number five and number six so these photos were taken from inside our house and they show that what we can see from the windows within our house on the first and second of floors from different rooms okay so three five and a six so let me explain um according to the zoning data on the lock raing plan so we have a photo right there but but I think you have that um within the document the building 46 East horor is not conforming to the 16 ft setback from property line U let's take a look at this Google sub live view so this corner of the building um is only 10.55 ft from the property line while the required setback is 16 ft um so therefore the building is not conforming to the setback limit the proposed two story Edition in the back will be uh buil where this red tree is right now okay you can see from this picture from this picture and from this picture um so this addition will result in a very massive continuous walk which is as close as 10.55 ft to the property line and also this addition we will bring you more windows that are closer to our house and to our backyard than the existing windows that are already overlooking our house and backyard from a close distance so we believe that these would cause privacy issues for us and for them as well because we're very close On a related note the proposed new windows and two new doors on the war Facing East horon Drive in picture number four so you can see these are the proposed the new windows and the two new doors okay so um we also um cause serious privacy problems as well as security issues because you know these two doors and some of the windows once added will J facing our driveway this is our driveway remember that this corner of the house is only 10.55 ft from the property line okay so very close and this is our house uh now I would like to wa so hold on so number for number four what do you what do you have there so that's different than what we're looking at right yeah so these are the propos I know they did but I'm saying that so so what I I want to do is I want to Mark what you handed out is going to be 01 but what you have there is going to be 022 okay okay so can you mark that as2 right now please just put five 520 24 on it also please thank you and explain what explain what the post it represent please the proposed the new windows new windows yeah and the two new drawers on the first so what's the source of the information for you for those windows um the the variance the documents the packet yes yeah okay so um now I would like to um comment on the positive creran infection in the variance application document which um we should have copies of so one statement reads quote the property is oversized for the R5 Zone and all other box standards are in compliance and quote first I am not sure why a house being oversized is a posit positive Criterion um as I understand understand a house being oversized means it is out of character because it's too large for the lot right second the statement that all other box standards are in compliance is simply not true because as I just showed the building is only 10.55 feet from the property line at the corner while the required setback is 16 ft so another steam read quote the rear Edition is well screened by existing vegetation and has limited the visibility from the neighboring property the fact is that the second level of the proposed two store Edition will be highly visible from our house and from our our backyard um as we can see from these three pictures three five and six okay so um in photo number six so these are the two you know um uh two sides of the you know building the back and uh the addition will be right here in the place of this um red tree so we can see that it is high visable from both first floor windows and the second floor windows and this will um the a mass of continuous wall and the corner of the the war is only 10.55 ft from our property line um the existing vegetation is not tall enough and these trees will not grow tall enough to fully Scream the two story Edition you know the second level um as we can see from the pictures now I also want to comment on some additional negative criterian so um the proposed rear two story Edition will significantly impact our privacy as I just said and it is already possible to look directly into our breakfast in Nook and the kitchen um this is you know our kitchen window um breakfast o window and this Edition will only exaggerate um that problem um the proposed addition of four windows and two doors here on this wall on this side of the building will also greatly impact our privacy as they're generally facing our you know driveway um therefore we believe that the proposed re two story addition will make an already sub suboptimal situation even worse and will increase the non-conformity of an already nonconforming property so lastly I would like to point out that on the Ling plant in the packet the proposed new doors these two new doors you know facing EAS horon have Landings and this seems to be an incomplete plan because uh there are no paved surface plant around The Landings you know um according to the the lock gring plan map I am not sure if there will be future plans to you know further complete it so in conclusion I would like to highlight that the proposed additions um raised several concerns regarding privacy Conformity to zoning regulations and the potential adverse effects on neighborhood security um it is imperative that these concerns are carefully considered before any decisions are made thank you thank you any further comment you soth know the truth sure yes name for the record Alana Martin did you say something address 61 Hilltop Road Short Hills so um as far as my comments um I have to disagree with you about the character of the neighborhood the R5 the houses in the R5 are clearly the the properties are clearly smaller than the properties at the dead end of his har turn that are enormous and the and the houses down Woodfield that are much bigger even on the other side of Hilltop you know where the other Zone starts um all those houses or many of those houses have three car garages um there are actually two houses on our in our neighborhood that have three car garages and there one is across the street from them when ton and one is couple houses down but those garages did not beget you know those variances did not beget other variances their application for a third car garage begets the front yard um variant and the F variance and again the F variance that the garage creates is not so big but then they're they're asking for all this other square footage and that concerns me because I don't understand why to Grant all these variances that really don't have a real hardship to be um there's also I mean I have a little bit of a concern with drainage because um there's water that comes out from their go from their basement from a sun bump or something um I know they've done a whole engineering plan so I'm assuming that that will not would not be a problem with the additional square footage I'm sure that has been addressed or I hope so um but again and also they don't park a car in the garage because they have a lift inside the garage so they actually Park three cars inside of their garage which I'm sure is not the most convenient thing um I'm more concerned about the F variants really than the garage variants so I just wanted to know that and and if they if this does get granted I would ask for some screening along our driveway because you know it's not really screened thank you uh any further comment from the audience in that case I will close the public portion just want to remind everyone this is a um there's an F variance involved in the request for Relief reques five fir votes we should identify who the s the members are as you think about and deliberate on so does come to the vot it take in two separate votes one for the VAR yes so thoughts Priscilla you would be voting on this okay don't rush I guess I'll start um I I there was a lot of discussion you know the especially the F variants and we heard from the neighbors and I I think you know we heard some I think some valid concerns from The Neighbors about distance from their houses and um and you know size of the home and how it impacts their homes um I I have frankly similar concerns I'm not sure although you testified to the positive and negative criteria I'm not sure that this instance really meets those requirements and um and I have concerns about the amount of f being added to this house it it's quite a lot um over what's the existing house which is is it's a big house um so um I I don't I don't think I would support maybe in you know if if one were to say well maybe we just want the garage and that's pretty much in line with what F they have left like I I could imagine I could support something like that but I don't think I can support this thank you I'll go next line um I have similar issues with the F but I go further I have a similar an issue with the setback on the garage I mean the reason the building was designed as you know it steps back as you move further down that's why it's continuing to meet that 40 foot at that point um to just say I would throw NRA Garage on and it'll be 10 feet closer to the side to the to the to the street that doesn't sit well I don't think I think it's out of character with the neighborhood as you drive down along um you're going to see this you know the addition sticking out where it's you know designed as you drive along so set back and back and back so that's my two sets I agree with with everything you've said um gorgeous oh gorgeous area by the way but I I am concerned and I share the neighbor's concerns about will this fit in our five district does it fit into the neighborhood um so I share your concern I would Echo those comments and I think uh the neighbor's concern about the property being too close uh to the property and even after the construction comes even closer uh uh the entire entire that this side of the house uh plus this you know what what Joe mentioned about adding a you know closer to the line having less than 40 ft U front yard set back I think those are all concerns which are valid and I I could support part of it but not as it is presented Mo the public course Mee move to open second second so um I think you smell what they're cooking here so uh what do you want to do would you like to move forward in this section vote would you like to um take another look at this or your pause well we we would like to have h a successful resolution to this in some way um I hear the comments uh that have been made uh just to can I take this opportunity to correct a couple of the comments you can um but I think you get the I I understand I just wanted to mention that the 10.55 or 10.6 that was decided in 1988 the the thing that the piece that we're adding on the back of the house is does not change the silhouette it doesn't do any of those things all essentially all of the um the Privacy is achieved by the ARB ities on the rostin's property the addition itself is fully compliant in setback but not in F so just wanted to make sure that that was that was clear and uh with regard to the uh the improvements that I think are really significant nice things Facing East haror to take a blank wall that you can see on your uh the photos that just presented and so on to put Windows there um if you look at the site plan they go essentially straight out to uh East hardshore and they clip maybe the end of the driveway the ordinance does not say that you're not allowed to see another house from your property you're not here tonight for registration issues so so we're not okay I just wanted to clarify that those you can put those into yes so that's not yeah that's not that's not on the table to make right and and that the the additions are compliant in building coverage and lot coverage and so in the description when it says that all of the other bulk standards um for the addition is what we're referring to for the setbacks and so on just wanted so back to my initial question yes you don't have the votes correct what would you like to do hold on one second sure uh so the qu there was a question Mr Simon asked me about the F without the garage if we remove the garage from the project for the piece to the front the piece to the back that removes 270 9 Square fet it removes 1.6% so that the floor area ratio variance would be the sole variance that we would be seeking I think that it would address Mr cofield's comments about the front yard setback the stepping back and then some of those comments were echoed by other people who spoke uh subsequently and um we would be we would be willing to um drop the garage from the project so that we can move ahead with the other parts of kitchen breakfast area mud room and upstairs the two closets and a bathroom um that addition is compliant in its location there is the there isn't um there isn't a privacy issue that can't be solved with adding a couple of trees or something in the back yard there so anyway I just wanted to see whether that's something that might be um pric to Street the way I look at it neighbors have to it's not necessarily for this neighbor to make sure it's private for the other neighbor so right while while I understand the plea of of the the Computing neighbor um clearly effort been made with the AR put up um you know I I would argue that the other person wants it private that's on that um so what do we have for numbers what are we talking about here so the building coverage lot coverage are already compliance so they go down by uh 1.6% the floor area ratio goes down by 1.6% to 32.1 uh 2.1% over the allowable 30% the front yard setback variance dis appears the third garage Bay variance disappears so we have a single variance for 2% 2.1% over on F for uh someone practiced this a little bit I have the numbers in my head so that that out pocket I anticipate possible questions I'm sorry that translates into 400 feet think 2.1% uh 2.1% is really more like 360 something yeah we all have calculators in our pockets but yes I just want to get it right because do get this we want to make sure just a quick question the prevailing yard setback was solely related to the position of the third garage yes thanks for confirming that the front yard setback was yes so I'd just be interested in what the comments would be for on that on that offer yeah um I mean it seems to address many of the concerns perhaps not all yeah um yeah before we rock our brains here is that what were your thoughts on on on eliminating the front yard setback eliminating portion of the f um just building on the back of the house so the f is still is is 31 32.1 and it was uh 360 square feet Mr harani yeah so we lose the maximum garage space variant moveing front inter set back variant all we're left with is a 2.1 2.1 yes 21% deviation on just I'm sorry just to clarify it the 2.1% equals 360 since the existing f is below I'm not that's not the total addition but it's 2.1% over so 2.1 times the size of the property 17,18 gets us to uh 3 60 square feet 60 is the excess yes yes just wanted to clarify that because I wasn't sure exactly how your question were at 28.9% that adds another 118 so the new addition is 360 plus roughly about 180 right right five 30 540 540 me what would happen would you have to limitate now to be compliant because it is a pretty large house already so I think it is PL if play Let's Make a Deal and I appreciate I appreciate the attempt to get the numbers down to be more compliant but it is still over even if it's only an airod 2.1 it is still over the F in a very large house it's already pretty great right and the in New Jersey municipal land use law and no I'm no expert I defer immediately to Mr Simon on this but my understanding is that the the a hardship when when needed for C variances it could be just that the positives outweigh the negatives no hardship is needed uh for that for a C2 variance but for the for the D variant one of the hardships can be uh a variety of things it can be the existing house or the existing structure on the property it can be uh natural features on the property it can be the position of the house on the property um this house when it was built in 1988 was put into a position where there are uh there are setbacks the the sidey setback back instead of 16 the 10.55 that was mentioned um those were approved back then and I don't remember I don't even know what the requirements were in 1988 but um it seems to me that the basic question of can the property sustain the additional development this addition does not change the silhouette of the house from any angle there can be windows on that the whole wall could be opened up as it is so there isn't to me there isn't the same kind of privacy issue it's simply whether it makes sense for good planning and um within the house to have a kitchen that you don't have to walk through that's less safe it's less it's just not the way that most kitchens even on much smaller houses have but the fact that the house is there we could get to a number by just slicing pieces off in various places but that's not what the intent of of the the variance process is it's to say that if it's not practical to do it one way or another way then um then there's the balance that this board finds between individual property rights which could be construed as I would like to do this individual property rights versus Community interests and in this case if we take the garage off the community interests I think are that there's no change to the streetcape there's nothing that anybody could notice except by coming on to the single adjacent neighbors property and going not So Much from the house because again the silhouette is the same but coming over to the property and trying to look and and make that judgment I think the statistic is over by two .1% but the impression of the house is unchanged from the front and mildly changed from the back um because the issue of privacy or whether there are windows there that can all happen yes due respect Mr Rose he conflating a lot of different land use Concepts okay so just so the records clear and the board's clear if they're proposing to eliminate third garage and therefore for the front yard setback deviation we're left with this 2.1% overage on F okay you know for an F variance we've done a number of them there's two promts positive and negative criteria the positive criteria is part of showing special reasons the good reasons for the proposal is that the the property can accommodate an F that is in excess of what is required in this case for the R5 Z okay that's the positive criteria the negative criteria still is if you add this extra F does it cause substantial detri to the neighborhood Andor does it cause substantial inherent to the master plan or zonings right so negative criteria two PRS and you can even consider the positive criteria is in this case sort of two problems and that you have to primarily look to see whether the 2.1% overage can be withstood given the size of the lot and the configuration I'm comfortable with that explanation no surprise with that I close the color portion of me um so with the current offer on the table once again 2.1% F uh will lose the garage three car garage variants um along with the front y set Vari so that's what's on the table um thoughts on that all right I struggle with this um and I guess what I'm struggling with is when I look at I see that the kitchen is is narrow and maybe I don't know if it meets the positive criteria per se but I see that there is some level of um inefficiency or perhaps inutility with how that is was designed but but I could also see that you could do a one story Edition call it that fixes that and um and probably stays within the F allowable we're very close to that and what you lose is upstairs two walk-in closets in a bathroom and so I struggle with this like does that matter does it not matter I I just I don't know if that really this twostory Edition really is you know meeting the criteria and then there's still the negative right now one story Edition probably doesn't disturb anybody in the community or or or interfere with the master plan a two-story Edition it does and that's where I'm not decided one way or the other but I'm sort of struggling Sor I'm just G pretty much power the entire time here um it seems to me that even with because we're so close on F even when if you're not doing anything it seems even if you lose a second floor you're still going to be above your if they are right you think I'm sorry portion is closed it seems to me I did the numbers real quick in my head you think there so I don't know so I'm gonna hop in and say um I agree both of you I have to say one of the things I've noticed in my time on the zoning board is that a strategy is to come in with asking for everything and then coming down but you're still over but I feel like you're still over so I feel like uh been been there done that I feel like it's such a such a cliche that I feel like everybody does it just to get us to say yes but I am sympathetic to the neighbor's concern I'm sympathetic that it's just a beautiful big giant house and gosh how much of a hardship is it to to live in a house that's so gorgeous and big already and and I and I do understand the need to do the kitchen and I'm wondering if I don't know if the hardship that's presented by this being on a corner is enough for me to say need to add to go over the affair I agree with that comment and I think what what Amy mentioned could be an elegant solution I'm not proposing anything here but that could take half of that area away which is the 540 square ft addition if you just keep it one to it and just thinking alloud and that could take away even the 2% maybe you're all right well you want to vot on that or no one second and by vote on it I mean voting on what you propos we're not voting on what they're proposing we're voting on what your proposing you want to vot I understand what what the vot is and keep in mind um so we have this board is aware the legal doctrine of rest rest means is that if you say I want you to vote on x whatever X is it's up to the applicant board doesn't design project board votes on X and the board turns it down because you don't get the five affirmative votes if you can't just say okay we're now going to you know reduce it by you know 0.1% let's make give you an example um we want you to vote again because what the law says is that if you get denied you can't come back within is a DI Minimus essentially a DI Minimus change and say okay well now we want you to vote on this because the board could say well look under the doctrine resta this is not a substantial change there hasn't been any changes in your neighborhood so as a matter of law we're not even going to vote on right because um you haven't you decided to go for the vote the first time you got denied and you're not changing enough to allow you under the doctrine of restri ofata to to allow us to take a second vote and I always state that to applicant especially those without Council so you understand the legal ramifications of asking for a vote not just in terms of five affirmative votes get an approval but you know be careful what you ask for in that that thank you um what we would like to do is to consider the comments of the board and continue the application to the next meeting um I appreciate the the comments and I appreciate the the way the board is is seeking the the right balance here um we had those statistics because well we were talking outside here tonight because we can see that sometimes things don't go fully the way that an applicant wants those numbers were developed uh maybe an hour and a half ago just in case to see what our a fallback position might be anyway thank you for your comments we'd like to continue and uh we'll see you we soon do we have for dat what kind of do you need like I think that we'd like to come back as soon as we can 1 June 3 June 3 well I mean well but but if they're going to neighbors if they're going to be revising plans they should be submitt atast cons your neighbor this time around yeah there were conversations I mean we could do July 1 I don't know 17 have two otherly shrew I know is not going to be here that's oh I and I won't be here July I'm not here in July want to they may want to car to when we have some board members who are not going to be around since we've already heard a lot of testimony might want to carry to a time when board members already heard the application are able to what you have in June again June 3 and that would have June 3 I would need I third so we would have to have a revised drawing yeah if if we're do we'll do it so June the only issue is that if if we don't have the time I don't know what you're schedule look at this point you have to do what you think reason so I don't I mean if you want that date I take the date because you're looking at August yeah August is not desirable June 3rd we'll take June 3rd okay and if it turns out you can't I'll let you know yeah if it doesn't work out we'll move it but um all right so uh for the interested parties that are here um this will be moved to June 3 no further notice uh if there are any amended plans that are published on the website probably gonna be on the agenda for that I just real that's okay that's okay yeah I'll cross that bridge [Music] paper mill is coming on the 17 com the third it is once again for those interested parties uh we're planning on having it on the third further notice any corrections or changes to plans put on the website or po yes I might there you go okay thank you um anyone in the audience have anything discussed on the agend evening anyone second second all in favor have evening