##VIDEO ID:cKDQAwrvWaQ## get out so she G me permission most Thanksgiving yeah I love any Hol a lot of information on this yeah e e don't yeah years beginning e e e e e hold no just e I'm on the green stage is there a stage it's nowhere on there so I good evening I'd like to call the November 25th 2024 burough council meeting to order will the clerk please read the open public meeting statement adequate notice of this meeting has been provided as required under chapter 231 Public Law 1975 specifying the time date and location by posting a copy of the notice on the municipal building Municipal website providing a copy of the annual notice scheduled to the official newspaper of the burrow and is on file in the clerk's office will a clerk please call the role council president rinsky here councilman Collins councilman moo here councilman pans here councilman Potter here councilman Zen Brana here mayor Murray here B Attorney Peter Veno pres B engineer Mike mlen pres B engineer lukanka president B administrator Fred Carr present B clerk Monica Orlando present B CFO joand well every everyone please stand for a moment of silence which will be followed by the Sal the flag to flag the United States of America to the stands one nation God indivisible liy and jusice for alls sorry here quite de now is the time for public comments limited to the resolutions listed on the agenda only if you wish to speak please step up to the microphone and state your name and address for the record again this is the public portion is limited to the comments only on the resolutions listed on the agenda at this time there will be a 5-minute time limit set forth by the rules of council if someone raises their hand please come up to the microphone state your name and address for the record seeing none I close public comments the meeting minutes for the November 12th 2024 regular meeting are on the agenda for approval are there any comments or Corrections seeing none can I have a motion to accept a minutes typed so move second all in favor I any opposed thank you ordinance introduction first reading this introduction is of ordinance 24552 there will be no public input on this ordinance tonight the ordinance summary will be published as required by law in a second reading public hearing and a final adoption will be considered on the December 9th 20 20 24 full copies of this ordinance will be posted on the bur website on the bulletin board of Municipal building and available at no cost in the office of the municipal clerk between the hours of 8:30 a.m. and 4:30 p.m. Monday through Friday will the clerk please read ordinance 24552 by title only ordinance to amend chapter 25 order of the revised General ordinances of the burrow of miltown section 25-4 tap fee and meter charges and section 25-6 discontinuance of water service may I have a motion in a second please there was no motion oh okay good all right authorizing payments we we need a motion in a second I asked for you oh I thought he asked for a second I'm sorry is there a discussion before if you get the motion make yeah have the motion to make the motion we I'll make a motion let's have a discussion and I'll second okay we have a motion made by council president rinsky seconded by councilman Potter now it's discussion yes and who's you want to go Frank if I want does this supersede the the law that is in the uh the consent agenda from the state about the shut offs during the winter the shut off is is state law this would your your winter uh program for shut offs would be would supersede this this is just a provision in your ordinance that allows for shut offs when they would be permitted okay and that goes until May I believe as I saw March the win yes the winter prohibition is both for water and sewer and for electric it's Statewide it's not just miltown can we amend this to include perhaps something more effective like uh mandating an increase every year in January that follows the increase we get from New Bruns water okay councilman this is not about rates this is this for for not about the rates I'm just saying is that in the future no we're talking about we're talking about this can't anything no this ordinance right here only addresses two things it talks about the waving of the fees for people who connect to the water main as part of our waterline replacement project if you remember last couple of meetings I encourage the council to wave that tap fee for residential customers who are replacing their water lines because of the water line replacement program for the lead lines that's this the second portion is makes the disconnect portion of the ordinance for water consistent what we do for electric right now we've got about 88% payment rate this is not about fees or rates or usage it's just about those two narrow narrow areas okay the increase as you mentioned councilman that's an ordinance yet to be introduced well that's exactly my point though is that if we're making if we're amending the existing ordinance regardless of whatever the rates will be it seems like we have a you know the idea of why not amend it to something that certainly seems to have been a greater problem than either of those two I think um I think the purpose of this is to address immediately the concern I know the residents here can hear me those at home can't um to address the immediate concern with folks who might be replacing their water services whether to comply with state requirements for replacing lead services or because the service is damaged and needs replacement to avoid having to charge them a reconnection or new tap fee right that's that's the gist of it let's just get this done so that people aren't holding off on something they want to do for their homes yep because they're replacing essentially in kind or the asked for this earlier uh I think at last meeting or the meeting before and really it's just designed primarily because you're going to have people who are going to have to replace their lead or galvanized service lines um you know and if they had to do that under our current structure they would also have to pay a p fee the idea behind it is that people who are already connected to uh our our water utility um have already paid the tap fee uh presumably in the past and typically that fee is something that's designed to make a new user have to uh contribute towards the uh the infrastructure aspect of your water utility uh to the extent that those people are already connected there's really no reason to make them pay it again and so just to clarify on this we have uh section 254 part C no tap fee shall be imposed for the replacement of the service connection of an existing ing user um at the last meeting we kind of went back and forth as to exactly what that entails uh my contention was that if a service is broken or needs replacement and they are tapping the main again but the number of TAPS for that property Remains the Same that it should be waved is the way that you that's what this is designed to okay this okay that's the way you interpret it okay I I have a problem with this there's no dates on here is this retro I mean cuz I heard there's a resident on the North side somewhere that had to have have it got hit with the tap fee are we going to Retro these people that are replacing it nothing retroactive about this ordinance if you have someone who when does it take a when does it take effect there's no date yes immediately upon adoption and publication according to the law so that'll be after tonight yes so the person that had to pay the tap Fe we haven't had a second reading on it yet so this isn't going to be effective until you have a second public you know uh second reading and a public hearing on it so but we're not going to Retro this back to this meeting then would that be available at the discretion of well essentially what you can do with people who have already had to uh absorb that cost is they can uh petition the council and you guys can wave that fee on a on a individual Bas basis yeah but rather than trying to figure out what retroactive date you would want to use um you know at some point that becomes kind of difficult and if somebody's a week before then you're going to be seeing them with a waiver request anyway so you might as well have it appli prospectively and anyone who has that issue can come to you and ask for you to do it by resolution sounds fair yes sir we have councilman we have two we have two residents uh in in the year that I've been here or almost a year the one gentleman who's had a tap fee as as of 8 August you've all probably had emails on him but you know the reason I've asked for this is because we I count we the staff can do nothing about him because the current ordinance does not allow us to wave the fee now once we have a second reading of this ordinance then I can come back to the council with two separate resolutions asking that that one gentleman not have to pay and that a person who has already paid get reimbursed let me see okay by specific action of the council right to memorialize those two actions and anybody moving forward who shows up especially now that we're starting the meter replacement project will have a lot more people being identified as having LED lines into town they'll be able to you know construction will be able to wave the they won't even charge them they won't follow the conversation so they'd be good to go but without this they can do nothing I'm sorry I I have to ask again for a little bit more clarity Peter um just reading this it seems somewhat vague and I would hate for in the future someone to misinterpret the intent of this ordinance um for example if someone tears down a single family home and there's a 34in tap and they decide to build a four-story apartment building which requires a 2-in tap is there that would be replacement of the service connection that would be a a uh expansion of what they have okay but it it doesn't say in here like of similar size it doesn't that that's what I'm I just want to make sure we're clear that you know that would be I think there's an understanding by the people who are going to have it as to what is intended at some point I mean I didn't think that was necessary I mean we can rewrite it any way you want to um but I think that covers this language covers that situation okay so like a like a Ford Avenue where there may be a water line there and if they wanted to do a full development of that site and do with a singular line with you know or the old Spirits yeah understood those are those are things where that that connection is going to be increased and right the nature of the users is going to increase so you're not going to have a singular user at that site you're going to have multiple users and that would not be something that I think that this would apply to and you your professional opinion you don't think we need to clarify that ambiguity I I don't I think you're going to interpret your own ordinance when people come in and I mean and again if you think that that's necessary I can add the language I just don't think that it is just but but not every lead bline replacement needs a new tap is that correct yes yes they should they should get a new yes sir that's why we're having that's why we're encouraging this ordinance because most of those leads are lead Taps also we need to abandon the tap and the connection or the saddle if you will and have a brand new hole in the main and thereby waving the fee for that new sewer con water connection right just want to clarify that so no more comments will the clerk please call the rooll council president revolinski I councilman Collins councilman moo councilman pany councilman Potter councilman Zan BR I next on the agenda we have authorization of payments of Municipal obligations will a clerk please read the resolution by title resolution 2024 307 authorizing the payment of bills claims and statements against the burrow of miltown in a total amount of 3,485 7632 you have heard the reading of this resolution or any questions may I have a motion in a second please so mov second I have a motion made by councilman cter seconded by council president revolinski will the clerk please call the role council president revolinski Hi councilman Collins councilman Mano hi councilman panski hi councilman Potter hi councilman zamber no consent agenda a consent agenda has been prepared for the resolutions listed on the agenda all matters listed on the to consent the agenda or be considered to be routine in nature and have been reviewed by borrow Council will be in acted on in one motion any items may be removed from the consent agenda at the request of any council member and if so removed will be treated as a separate matter any items requiring expenditures are supported by C certification of funds and may uh certification of funds any member of council wants any resolution acted upon individual please give me your resolution number and it will be pulled from the consent resolution 2024 310 please 2024 312 2024 316 is that it okay will the clerk please read the consent agenda resolution whereas pursuant to the rules of council the council May establish a consent agenda for any regular or special meeting upon certain conditions and whereas each of the following resolutions to be presented before the borrow council at its November 25th 2024 regular meeting appear to have the unanimous approval of all members of the burrow Council 20 24-39 202 24- 311 202 24- 313 through 315 and then 202 24- 3177 through 319 now therefore be it resolved by the burrow Council of the burrow of miltown that each of the above listed resolutions be approved and adopted by the burrow council with the same legal effect as though each were read its entirety at its November 25th 2024 regular meeting and adop Ed by separate vote see you heard the reading this consent resolution with your pleasure move that the resolution be adopted second I have a motion made by council president revolinsky seconded by councilman Potter uh will the clerk please call the rooll council president rolinski Hi councilman Collins councilman moo hi councilman posnanski councilman Potter councilman Zam Brana I will the clerk please read resolution 2024 310 by title Please authorizing professional Engineering Services CME Associates water water meter replacement not to exceed $747 n6 where to pleasure Council move the resolution be adopted make a motion uh we have a motion made by uh councilman Collins seconded by councilman Potter is there any discussion yes Mr Mayor I asked for this one to be pulled because reading through items a through K I have a hard time understanding how we get to a value of not to exceed almost $75,000 for a company to come in and replace water meters it's the first time I'm seeing any numbers associated with this other than the co-op and uh I I'll read through them review of the purchasing Arrangements um receive and review contractors bonds and insurance assist the burrow in arranging and conducting a preconstruction meeting receive and review as as applicable shop drawings and submitt review existing demand for commercial customers and the size of proposed water meters I mean to my understanding we're replacing meters we're not changing any sizes unless someone's going to increase the size of their service which I don't foresee that that would be an additional cost to that property owner assist the burrow in arranging and conducting status meetings with the contractor review periodic construction reports which I believe the contractor is going to tell us what meters are being replaced what the services were preparation of monthly payment applications assist with software integration which I believe would occur through the representative from the software program assist in arranging and condu uh conducting construction closeout meeting and finally review completed pay items and make recommendations to the burrow relative to final estimate of payments $75,000 seems like a lot of money for that I need some sort of justification here on on this mik we're happy to I uh I think that uh we can provide you a further breakdown if it helps council president uh we are on an as needed basis for this project so your administrator calls us we're there to help we basically gave you a rough estimate what we thought it's a 9-month Construction contract there's um over 2,000 uh services to deal with um and regarding the size of the meters there's commercial accounts that have to be looked at we have found over the years that uh commercial accounts are where some of your under registration occurs and so it's not just complete meter replacement certainly residential houses but commercials are different so um but we're happy to provide the burrow with any service that you call this is not a lump sum it's an hourly basis cost not to exceed you need us we're there you don't need us that's fine too but uh n9ine months of work there's there's quite a bit of oversight uh we are not going to every house we worked with your administrator to go over the scope and provided the numbers based upon what the decision was our scope's going to be as I said please if it turns out the bur can handle with your own staff by all means we we are happy with that too and and by the way this money would be handled under the grant also the burrow is not paying for it it's coming out of the grant okay certainly suitable not that that makes it any any easier to to comprehend but uh it is covered under Grant what was the total amount of the uh sorry if I'm not close enough to the mic uh what was the total amount of the co-op estimated purchase L please it is uh 1,376 365 and we've got 2 million in Grants that's that's correct and the plans for the remaining $600,000 we're at your disposal we think that you have some projects whether they're cleaning and lining I think that's a matter discussed with the water utility committee but yeah there's approximately $600,000 left to to do improvements and we would highly recommend that you move to once you get this P you start thinking about what you want to do because there's limitations to how long that money will in your uh in your be before I vote on this if no one else has any comments or questions I know I won't be here next year and I would highly recommend to the governing body to use caution so uh when requesting additional services for this so so Mike I have a couple of questions so do do we have an estimated time of completion how long would a project like this take if Phil they're saying nine months nine months and there's an awful lot of coordination and I think that one of the things that came up was following up to make sure that the folks that go into people's houses are properly uh Dressed and properly with proper identification those types of things and uh they are submitting reports they're submitting inspection reports so we're not going to go inside the buildings but uh I think that you you have a a duty to make sure that people entering people's homes are proper and and properly uh prepared to go through do what they have to including locating and and determin what type of services which is a additional service they provide nine months it's it's a time you know it it takes a lot of time if you ever tried to contact a homeowner and try to schedule a date and time when they're available sometimes they may even have to do it on a Saturday because some people work you know during the week so there's going to be some coordination involved but again as I said to council president we're only here as you as you need us if it turns out that you don't need us so much then by all means have your own staff handle it we're happy to do that to so basically what what this 75,000 to me I'm I might make be making this really simple and it's not um you're sort of going to be like our project manager in a way yes okay and I think that that some time is going to be required on the commercial accounts and also the multif family because you know again these meters fail and under registration when they age but also if you're sized incorrectly that's another problem so you know we would suggest that anybody over a anywhere where there's an in multiple units that that be looked at in the proper meter size be installed because again you're you're concerned about unaccounted for water well there's a source okay would you be picking um one of the things that I'm most concerned about is how is this going to get rolled out you know dist is it going to be that simple as going district one two 3 four five or are we gonna like great great question um and your administrator has asked us to meet we're meeting in early December to go over just that how it's going to be installed the uh the contractor that's being awarded the job that you awarded your last meeting has some approaches they'll be review with your staff and uh certainly that's how it'll be implemented because you can't you know hop Skitch all over town it's not the right way so we uh we have our our kickoff meeting as Mike alluded to uh is the 10th of December it's a Tuesday at 10:30 invitation went out today to the professional staff we had a we had an original meeting we had some conflict we've backed it off now we're back on the 10th of December with and that finance committee was included in that invite okay or the utility finance committee since it's the same three individuals uh M as Mike alluded to if you go back into the old days uh when when you had a meter book it's cleaner and to do it by you know a cycle you do everybody in Cycle One cycle two cycle three and you just go through town instead of doing all over the place you try to close out the books so that when they roll over they all roll out together they all roll over together but nine months we're thinking we'll get a lot of them done initially and then there'll be many that we have to go back again and again and again to that part of the conversation where you finally find a date when the the residents of available because of their work schedule and and the dog is locked up and all these kinds of things and then everybody be done we should be for the most part should not have a problem with with that and we'll get we'll get reports and we'll pass them to the council so that people can address questions and for the public it's a simple process that the the gentleman will knock on your door I've said he will replace the meter he'll identify himself they'll make an appointment they just don't show up you'll make an appointment with you so that you're there and that you're prepared for them and like I said the dog is put away and all those kinds of things um and then you know it's very very trans be very very transparent and he'll be able to do that there's no requirement for either Mike to inspect his firm to inspect the connection or to the plumbing inspector to do that the person who's installing it is qualified to do that we don't inspect the change of the meters our plumbing guys don't have water guys on doesn't have to follow somebody around make sure they're doing it right they're that's their job so worst case scenario nine months possibly get done faster Poss possibly possibly so it it depends on the meter connections okay if you have somebody where as I said previously in a meeting you know when they replace my meter in free Bor the guy was in and out in 10 minutes newer home but you go down there you put the you put the wrench on that old cast iron or that old galvanized pipe and it splits yeah you know that it gets a little more problematic that's absolutely right that's built into this that's part of the bid if you go back to the bid documents you'll see the verbiage is in there upsizing the meter that verbiage is in there you know what happens if we have to upssize the meter for this customer that's built in there at a cost Associated for that service our intent is that we don't do that right you know one for one in and out but we have built that into it in case but you just don't do it on your own so we've we've got the the upsize of the meeting is just meter is just something that I I understand with water accountability and the ability of the meter to capture all that flow but how are we going to tell a private property that even though they were approved however many years ago based on the number of units they have that this is the size service that is required and that's the meter that we can't replace your meter because we're going to require you to increase the diameter of your pipe all the way back to the main who's going to foot the cost of replacing that service all the way to the main if we are now mandating that they have to increase it when they should be grandfathered in because they were approved with it however many years ago I think that's a Sticky Wicket that really we this is designed to be a meter replacement so we can get on a better Billing System and I think nine months to councilman Zam br's point I I think we're over optimistic here when we look at how long it took PSENG who did not do the whole town to get a hold of residents and try and coordinate getting in those homes to replace the gas meter I I think nine months is optimistic and and additionally I'd like to know you know what experience do we have in doing a similar program I know East Brunswick has uh recently done meter replacement I think they're going out for a second round of contract what what other municipalities have we or or have you over seen full meter Replacements like this I think we we did our first one about 30 years ago in Middle County and since then well there's been others but I you know like I said we've been doing this for about 30 years so we're familiar with this and and you know I think that uh uh we asked the contract she was pretty confident that she could do it in 9 months we were pushing for six to tell true because I thought you'd be more anxious but uh they uh they said really nine months is more realistic my my concern is really opening up a can of worms here where um without it being a fixed price that you know we go out there and a service has issues now we're we have an inspector out there and we're reviewing and now replacing another service and at what point does it become our responsibility because we operated the valve versus the resident who operated the valve or failure by them to maintain the curb stops if that's the case if their service inside the home can't be shut off by an isolation valve prior to the meter I just I I'm not a fan of a not to exceed cost I think we should be looking at this more of lump sum with fixed estimates on the prices and that's why I I caution here the rest of council that we'll be overseeing this next year that before we just pick up the phone and say hey CME come on in over and help us out with this that we know exactly why we're calling and we've got our set results or res methods of resolution that we're looking at I mean I get where anytime you touch anything old as an exist you know a line a toilet any kind of pipe you never really know what you're opening up um but is there a protocol there can't be an insurance policy uh I mean it is built in up up to a certain over and under in this is that kind of how it was stated Frank it's a good comment I mean one of the things that we worked on with your administrators to make sure this particular entity has the proper Insurance because that's precisely what can happen the contract goes in someone's basement and they don't they have a problem with un taking the old meter apart with whatever can happen and certainly there's got to be insurance to cover so these are part of the functions that we brought to the table we'll bring to the table but you obviously it has to be something that you I can't give you every scenario that could occur but that's one of the things that uh that could happen and since for the most part in a majority of occurrence they would have the ability to address accidents in a timely manner in what they have normally working on their trucks that's correct I mean they would have to shut the water service off or have your facilities guys turn off okay so this is not a um you can really draw a horrible scenarios with this it usually works much easier but that you know every nine time out of 10 you're going to be okay maybe one in 10 you're going to have a little bit more complications but uh I think that the approach that the contractor has is good it's almost almost as if you the burrow has really little to do with the what's inside uh on the installation they will provide you photographs before and after I think that's that's a good approach we had asked for that ourselves she said that's standard for what they provide for you so I think it's done in a way that uh will be helpful uh as I said to the extent your own Personnel have the time we're happy to go through and just call us you know we uh we're on an on call basis with this one we also were concerned about the scope that's why we spent considerable amount of time working out with the barrel before we submitted our price admittedly well uh candidly I see I get a sticker shock whenever I see a number with that many zeros but based on the entirety of the project that's 5 a half% which is not unreasonable I think as a uh industry standard for management goes thank you Mike one other question um I've been getting a lot of questions from residents because letters went out indicating identifying their lines either lead galvanized or uh copper which rope it's copper this Co-op will be able to go in and identify that with this program one of the things that we asked them on your behalf is do they have it included there was a small upart for that but that was included what you authorized last month to go through and identify those Services now remember I've said before it's only the service as it comes into the meter there's a question well does that you know go out out of the house and is the same from there to the Street no one's going to know that but if it's lead on the inside you're going to know if it's Galvin you'll know okay and nine times out of 10 I'm in this 50 years guys if it's Le in the house it's generally L outside not always but you know okay because I believe in in the letter we asked for them to get a licensed plumber that's right so this would take care of that that's right yeah okay thank you so it's it's not just a water a meter replacement project it's a water meter replacement project and also to check for lead that's correct and then said there was an up chge for that but it was nominal compared to what the total was and it's all covered in the grand helps us this helps us meet our goals or re state requirements for doing our lead inventory that's right y so it gets you that and gets your account as good as that can be no one in any of the towns we're working with and there's over 150 has uh gone beyond this right now they're not knowing that we know is digging up services to determine what they really are and because it's grant money and we don't have money in the budget I'll ask our CFO this question if we we wouldn't be able to actually hire an additional employee within the borrow to help oversee this project because the monies are coming from the grant right right yeah I don't think it covers salaries or employees new employees okay will the clerk please call the roll council president revolinski I councilman Collins hi councilman moo hi councilman posnanski hi councilman Potter hi councilman Zam BR hi will the clerk please read resolution 2024 312 authorizing winter termination program where pleasure Council move that this resolution be adopted second I have a motion made by council president rinsky seconded by councilman Collins is there any discussion yes uh Mr Mayor so um I just want to make sure I understand this correctly um there is a a document obviously uh attached to this uh from government services DCA about winter termination programs so what we're looking to do here is since the Burrows code book doesn't currently have a provision to terminate water and service a sewer service due to non-payment we're going to include it now and that would go into effect on March 16th after the winter termination program is over or do I this is this is the winter termination program this is your your program that you're required by the state to have in place so that you can't shut people's services off right between those two dates so this has nothing to do with the ordinance you just adopted it's something we we did this last year too okay so that but it literally says here the Burrows code book does not currently have a provision determinate water our current code book doesn't have a real specific one I I have indicated before my opinion that based upon your ordinance as the currently reads you have the ability to shut off for non-payment because you have the ability to shut off for any violation of your ordinance but you specifically will have something there so that it's not really in question anymore um this is something that the burough is required to do under state law um as as the operator of a municipal utility and we've we've done this as far as I recall we've done this every year you know where I'm going with this though it's turning off people without actually trying to help people work with people and I'm sure our burrow staff works with people as much as they possibly can we don't have an obligation to shut services off under your ordinance you have the ability to shut services off under your ordinance so and I I don't know that uh the bu's ever had a Hardline policy that it's running out and shutting people's services off um I'm not aware of that either yes so I I think the idea is it's it's a a last resort for uh people who are serial non-payment uh users so um but I I would defer to the administration on that because I'm certainly not in there on the dayto day thank you Peter you got it will the clerk please call the rooll council president rolinski councilman Collins councilman moo councilman posnanski councilman Potter councilman Zam Brana hi will the clerk please read resolution 2024 316 by title authorising Award of fair and open bid 24-4 Albert Avenue Park bike path improvements Black Rock Enterprises LLC not to exceed $245,300 n would is pleasure of council move that this resolution be adopted second I have a motion made by council president revolinsky second by councilman Potter is there any discussion yes Mr Mayor uh my being that you know it's been such a dry area there's been substantial erosion over at Albert uh and uh Hill Street around the park has anybody looked at it lately we have not been there in the last month or so but part of the project is to include grading in that area where the drainage at the corner Hill and Albert is so where that drainage structure is part of the project correct that so that should hopefully help that out yeah there's some with the trees are yeah and that's going to you know be by the blacktop in the C so they're going to take care of that we'll take care of okay thank you will the clerk please call the RO council president revolinski Hi councilman Collins councilman moo hi councilman panski councilman Potter councilman Zam BR hi okay uh we don't have any reports tonight so we could focus on this um um so we're going to bring up old business does any member of council have any old business to bring for Council yes Mr Mayor the water rates how was that for a segue have any questions you can leave fire department so you don't to around so Monica would you uh pull up the PDF for the the anticipated 2025 first yeah yeah no I and and Joe you'll uh you'll be able to go through that 2025 numbers that we looked at on which we're basing these like we'll start there and then we can have fun playing with the Excel sheet we know yes please two uh that's probably good there my eyes are bad I guess yeah Joe if you can read that and I know you've got the numbers in front of you anyway so all right thank you all right so the first thing we did is try to put together a 2025 estimated budget uh started with an abstract of salaries which is the first line actually the first column that you see was the 2024 budget already approved so that was already adopted and then we made certain adjustments and then we made other adjustments in a fourth colum to come up with an estimated 2025 budget uh other expenses uh $897,000 we put an additional 5% there uh next year the state of New Jersey is increasing your health benefit costs by 16.2% so there are certain increases that are coming forward even the uh joint Insurance Fund increases from prior years are coming through um that are significant for M uh miltown so 5% we're hoping covers these uh increases you also have your built-in and half% increase for city of New Brunswick for water purchase that's in the contract already through 27 uh you have your sewer disposal costs um second section which says Capital Improvement we're trying to put a little bit more into Capital uh outlay which is where you repair water mains and do other Capital work uh we're trying to get to the burrow to try to spend budget money instead of having a bond for all capital work that you do so that'll save on interest and so forth so we tried to put a little bit more than was anticipated in4 before you sort it was 36,000 we're trying to bump that up to about 100,000 I mean we just had a watermain break on Ryder Lane that was 80,000 so I mean this can cover maybe one water main break so we're at least trying to cover something you also have your debt service those are actual numbers that you've already agreed to in debt service that's $857,000 and the last down the bottom is your pension bills that you pay through the state of New Jersey Social Security which is the portion from salaries and unemployment costs so what we tried to do is take 24's budget roll it forward to 25 of what we think we need to uh satisfy the water sewer utility and that comes to a total of $4,280 38 which is the fifth column over at the bottom now these are the same numbers that were discussed back in September correct when we look at the original uh plan to amend the rates which would have been cover your operating expenses of which is about 3 million or or was it 3 million change M um that came to about $285 per quarter per meter and then at that point uh you we would basically be charging the residents equal dollars that New Brunswick charges us for water purchase and Sewer purchase but there's about $3 million in the borrow operating expenses that's what it costs the town to maintain our water system every year Water and Sewer so we're looking at combined Water and Sewer here so the numbers that we talk about tonight I don't want people to think well God what's happening next with the sewer this is the whole thing because the employees basically work hand inand The Debt Service that we have from previous projects are all combined into one lump sum of monies so that's what we're looking about $3 million to keep the town running and then we buy another million and a half in water yep before we go on I guess Joe do we want to go through a few more pages of this or do you want to jump right into some other things there was an abstract of what other expenses are that was after after this I'm not sure if you want to show it so what does that cup stand for cost of providing Services okay let's see if I can do this without messing it up that's theill we get that's the bill yep all right so this is your abstract of what was other expenses on the sheet prior uh so if you look the First Column is 2025 estimated budget what we're anticipating uh second column was 2024 is approved budget already adopted by the governing body now the third column says through August 30th but I actually look through November and some of these numbers are a little bit different uh I think on the second page was Church Street repairs you've had a few repairs uh to Church Street since now since then and it's about 20,000 higher than what's on the sheet and then like I said said before you have an $80,000 watermain break on Ryder Lane that's not on the sheet either so you have a couple things that have changed since August 30th of 24 but at the time this is what we were anticipating so the second colum is where we're anticipating the third column is what was spent through August 30th and then the fourth column is what's was anticipating being spent but like I just said there's other expenditures that have occurred that aren't on the sheet I don't know Council brother you want to go down the bottom I think there's a couple I mean you can see the size of some of the um some of the line items like outside repairs from outside contractors insurance is going up significantly elen Lane repairs have been significant uh Church Street repairs have been significant fire hydren repairs I think were very significant this year right here there brakes and outside contractors is at 50 so that should now be about 130,000 yeah so to the right I I added anticipate all the way to the right column another 80 ,000 there so it looked like we were doing pretty well now remember usually the breaks happen in the winter time so breaks could start occurring more in December also but this is just one that's already occurred and I think elen Lane had significant repairs this year let's see what else I believe it was Church Street I think was significant and remember like I said before insurance is going up significantly next year [Music] excuse me after the project new project for water we can drink from it yeah the water we get from New bronck you can drink you can drink it yes yes all right yeah you got it so I I think it's good especially for everyone who watching at home or who came down tonight to see these call that when we're talking about you know what the water ratees should be or what what the budget looks like we're not pulling numbers out of the sky from a wish list this is what it costs miltown to operate the water system the age know the age of our system all the previous repairs and the entire package the entirety of it not just water moving in in an out there's a it's it's a tremendous undertaking even for a small town in the age of our system it also lends into why it's so hard for anyone to look at your bill and clearly look at it and just go why so there is a lot more in there and you know it is it's a big it's a big number we also need to discuss we're losing 20 million gallons a year in we're losing 20 million gallons a year I know people here don't realize that and we have to find some way to to to fix the situation it's a lot of money pass consum yeah you guys will have your turn in a little while finish your questions please councilman p asking we need to find a way to fix this loss of water it's water and sewer residents are paying for that and we need to do something and fix it this year at least this coming year the next page though just go to Church Street repairs I think it's on the next page top of the next one I think yes first item on the second yeah so even through August 30th that says 90,000 as of today when I looked it was 128,000 where that 90,000 is and we still have another month left so there's certain and since August 30th we did get alerted from The Joint Insurance Fund that we're getting a significant increase uh from prior years and we also just got the state just came out with their final numbers at 16.2% for benefits so there's certain numbers that aren't on the sheet that are we found out after August 30th that are pretty significant and this isn't just for miltown this is this is Statewide from the state of New Jersey that's for the uh the health benefits health benefits mandated control by the state of New Jersey have G up 16% so when you look at the other side of that being that as inflation and everything that has affected all of the Machinery gas everything that has done uh so the things that have gone up over the last year are more than just the three na % of water uh the Water itself yes 3 and half% but the the ancillary charges of all the services that are embedded in the service that are in the in what our water department provides has also gone up that has taken to account here but just in trying to understand the numbers um you know got to keep that in mind there are a lot of fees that get added on to the water coming to us I looked up I looked up about five and this one is very new and it's resiliency and environmental system investment charge so that goes into the 3 and a half% so it's not just that it's inflation there are other things that get it get added on to that comes from bureaucracy this point we uh open up that that Excel file um that this one more yes okay so what this table shows is all of the that help you is that better that it's much better thank you what this table shows is it has all of the data from 2023 water usage and the reason we use 2023 is because number one when we're doing a budget 202 3 is closed it is also the last year that we had full water usage for the entire year obviously we're not done with 2024 yet so we can't enter values for 2024 and what you see here I I took this raw data from our billing department and broke it out into um into $300 or I'm sorry 600 gallon increments starting first with 3,000 gallons and then at the end anything above 24,000 Gall I lumped together because it's quite excessive use and uh I know this is a lot to take in but in TW in the first quarter you can see that uh we had 223 people or 223 M were read less than 3,000 Gall and then at 3600 Gall there were 67 oops sorry then 40 74 all in 600 gallon increments for the quarter um over here in column I you have the total number of bills that were generated that year for that usage group um the rate rates that are currently in place do group everyone who was 7,500 gallons or less into one category however when they do a meter reading it actually tells you down to the hundreds of gallons what the what the usage was which allows us to break it down on average for this group 0 to 3,000 gallons we have about 2011 customers per quarter and the total number of gallons sold to that group was 1 million 132,00 gallons in 2023 uh we are build in thousands of gallons so that's why you see 11321 that's 11321 th000 gallons um and it's important to note as councilman p Ani said that we don't Bill he said lose but in reality what it is is we do not bill for about 20 million gallons of water each year and with that New Brunswick charges us 20 million gallons of sewage the reason for that includes operations at B facilities line loss leaks meters that are not reading appro rately or under recording actual usage and who knows where else it goes it's one of the reasons that the council has been pushing for putting meters and actually reading the meters on all of the burrow buildings so we can determine how much usage the burrow actually utilizes the same thing when we fill the pool this year it's about 500,000 gallons of water to fill the pool this fall they put a liner on the and resealed it because a leak in the pool means more money going to fill that pool necessary and it doesn't get covered by just the badge sales the burrow is responsible for that 20 million gallons paying for it to the city of New Brunswick and as we have no Revenue coming in anywhere else directly proportionate for water usage it has to get assumed into our budget our operating budget which is that $3 million number um so I think Mr Zang I don't want to speak for you but I I took this data um several weeks ago looked at it plugged in some numbers that I thought would work which are the yellow columns at the left and the right an additional fee being if we need to make up a few bucks here to cover the operating cost if you go down to the bottom you'll see here a sell that is in red you have the calculated total revenue based on 2023 usage below that the projected 2025 budget if the revenue is less than the budget it's red if it's more than the budget it's green that means we covered or anticipate in covering it so with that since Council has had various opinions on how we should structure the rates where tiers should be if there should be tiers what the minimum usage is this spreadsheet allows us all to throw some numbers at a wall Talk Amongst ourselves listen to the residents and decide where it is appropriate to charge the dollars per gallon and in the end we can check to see if we cover the cost Rich a quick question for you how close are we getting uh 2024 numbers well we still have to bill for November which should be about complete and we still have to build for December okay because you know there's been a change from 2023 to 2024 we have lost businesses we also had a drought this year so anyone who is trying to keep their water green you can't assume that that water consumption is going to be there next year because this was 90 days without water so like I said these numbers are a year old like a year old consumption so we're going to try and create a a rate on year old numbers well there it's the most recent complete set of data we have and we also have the complete budget expenditures from 20123 and like I asked how close are we getting 202 because we have December we can't rely on the 2024 numbers until the end of 2025 when you're developing the 2026 budget that is because it has by requirement of the state you have to use the complete full year you can't develop a 2025 budget in February based on 2024 when all of the bills have not been received yet okay so you have to go back two years which puts us at 2023 I think also if you were trying to rely on the water usage numbers or values to balance a budget based on consumption and you tried to use 2024 you'd be setting yourself up for failure because we had 90 days with no rain 2023 was a relatively average year as far as weather goes and water consumption one other thing is that as we proposed initially it's the responsibility of this Council to look at these numbers every year and adjust the rate according to to the operation costs we cannot ignore it for 5 years and hope there's just enough money in the end it's not the way it works and if we budget to the penny again we're going to be setting ourselves up for failure councilman how do we deal with the uh the seniors I had brought up last meeting that North Brunswick has has a system where the seniors uh get at the end of the year they get uh 200 $50 credit and so how is our system now going to change from what it had been a year ago currently the system doesn't have anything built into it or our rate structures don't have anything built into it to specifically give back to seniors however low-end users depending on how we format the rate structure today can benefit uh last council meeting I spoke about we'll start plugging some numbers in here if I can I'd love to get off my knees here no comments no comments those don't separate to keep people from throwing them at us um if I plug in $30 for every th000 gallons okay and leave a $15 called administrative fee on there and I set the minimum at 3,000 G gallons what you'll see at the end is we have $106,000 projected Surplus at $30,000 or $30 for every th000 gallons used across the board thanks the other thing we can do is say the actual cost for New Brunswick for both Water and Sewer is around $9 per th000 gallons and if you increase the minimum fee with no usage to about $285 let's see if I can work better with the mouse we're about $84,000 shot so if you consider those two scenarios that I just provided as your book ends we have to come to an agreement here and provide our CFO with some direction to provide a final calculation on what those rates should be but for the last few months we've gotten no response with regards to make it completely dependent upon consumption and it didn't pass when we said let's cover our $3 million operating costs with a minimum fee of 285 and Rich you're you're putting in numbers for water and sewer correct uh yes as I stated earlier the total budget is based on Water and Sewer so this $9 you could say $5 is for sewer $4 is for water it's nine bucks for every th gallons that's what generates your Revenue we either make our money on how much people use or we make our money on being a member of the system either way we have to cover $3 million of operation2 million gallons of water that we do not bill for and then make sure that the residents are paying for every gallon of water we sell or that they consume I think we have to come up with a decision on what we do with the seniors I'm leaz on to the senior center and the last three meetings business meetings i' they've asked me to speak about this and it bothers me because at times they'll come up and tell me how much they bring in in a month which I wish they wouldn't I wish they didn't do or they'll say they'll have to stop taking this medication or have to stop eating that so I think we need to make a decision that's going to either help them or not help them and that's the way I look at it if I may as I kind of had worked with councilman P Dany I mean sorry with councilman riny on this council president let me clear that um so when we when was Pres presented the idea of that having that minimum payment and it was divided by the 2600 some odd meters that's where that number that was unsettling to a lot of people came from so with this Excel what we kind of was looking at was that and I and I get what was expressed me later by some of the council members is that if a if the minimum payment was going to be 245 that could be a acceptable if you had five people living in a house could make sense but that is not good or not fair not relative to a family of two or a family of one so having that big base payment and it is good solid math the idea of okay we have this big number we divided by the amount of meters and that works but it doesn't work for everybody doing it the other way where you go by the gallons of usage it does allow for the variance of a family of five a two family house with one meter is still going to have a larger Bill based on usage a smaller usage household will have a smaller bill there's still based on the minimum amount of gallons it's used there's still going to be you know some basis that allows us to be able to calculate or have an expectation of meeting the amount of gallons or meeting the amount of dollars at the end of it to make everything work so all of this is really just a balance of numbers um you know what what the expel spreadsheet should give us is what those numbers will be with that said going by the gallons and billing per gallon does give some relief to smaller households uh and that is that helps address some of what councilman pansy is is bringing forward is that these smaller households you know uh they don't need the bigger payment so we can find a way and this is all this what this is about is today is looking for a template of what we can do to make something Equitable and Lasting and we may not get the perfect answer at the right first shot but we can certainly understand it all better and know what we're trying to do which there's so much confusion in this town about what goes why this is this why are we paying for East Brunswick run off God I hate that question anymore it is uh you know it is it is relatively understandable in the format that it's presented so uh sorry please go on well at at this point we got to open it up to council to finally speak their minds um and I would say Mr Mayor I think that this is probably also a good time to open it up to some residents who want to voice their opinions on this and throw some numbers because clearly over the last few months council's been unable to determine an appropriate or what they felt was acceptable rate structure and perhaps now actually looking at the dollars and cents that it cost from miltown to operate a water system maybe now it's it's it's time people realize that this isn't necessarily a choice it's just a matter of where you put the numbers I don't want to see people chased out of town I I had contacted uh Mr Zena months ago and asked him to to go over some some numbers with me I said I have to vote on this please help me understand and from from the uh the bill that we did a few months ago what I took it as and I asked him to tell me if this was right or not is some people will benefit and some people will not he said you can say that and what I saw at the time was the people of little water usage and the seniors would lose in the benefit and people that maybe uh spr use the lawn sprinklers wash their cars and larger families they they they gain it's a problem infl is is affected all of us and and it really comes in here because everything's so expensive taxes have gone up the water's going has gone up it's it'll go up again and uh the electric rates and you can't stop this so count councilman P aski let me ask you since since you were the first one you're going to be the first one on that I throw some arrows at um what do you feel would be an appropriate minimum volume of water that residents should be allowed to utilize and at what cost I don't know that I won't answer that right now I I'd like to I'd like to have time to to think about it maybe discuss with other people well the reason is we can we can just throw the numbers in here and see what they spit out and work towards the solutions anyone want to go first 33 cents sir 33 cents I can look like I can look like the bad guy here we got to start somewhere and what we did last time we understand it didn't work and that's why we're doing this but I would like to State for the record for everybody's knowledge how many meetings we got left in a year cuz this is all about math how many meetings are left in a year so if we don't we need two meetings to pass something so we need to get a plan otherwise nothing gets done so we need to focus on if the question is what would the numbers be and we can try out numbers I'm here for two days popping out numbers let's do every number if it needs to be but let's not talk about what didn't work and let's not talk about we need to talk about the future plan no we need to talk about what will work because we have to get this right for the people completely agree completely agree I have a question so why don't we why don't we take a step back here so um Rich you put the spreadsheet together yes Kudos because this is this is exactly what I kind of need to see so thanks for taking the time to put this this is how sort of I would put it together um I tried to break it I I didn't break it I TR to um I don't understand where everything's coming from yet but I will so without showing too much usage uh the the um our tax collection department provided me with the quarterly reports for all the Billings right right I copy and pasted those into individual cells you can see here y addresses what they used I had to break that down into did they exceed the minimum 7500 gallons how much they paid for in the next year and the next year Y and then started throwing some other numbers in of you know what makes sense what covers the bill Y how much they actually paid did that for all four quarters put that data into this sheet yep I have our total number of gallons that we sold in 20253 and that that's the clear most clear-cut approach that we could possibly appreciated so I have three separate questions and my first question is at this time in the year in 2024 has the 2024 um shortfall been covered I believe it has it will after hopefully it will by December 31st because remember the fourth quarter is when the shortfall is going to be generated okay so October I believe has your highest of the three months in a quarter October is your highest billing month okay so okay bills went out and then you know people have to still pay also yeah fair fair so that was that was my first question so that's good to hear because raising the minimum the whole reason to raise the minimums back in June was so we could cover the shortfall my second question is um this is the tearing right because I I think at the last time we talked about this it included tearing but the tearing started too high as opposed to where it is right now so so right now this spreadsheet has no tiers if we wanted to create a tier what we could do is say make this $10 per th000 gallons come down here and just decide at 10,200 gallons we make it but 25 but you could do that with this template so it's sort of like you could if you wanted to pick a number you could if you wanted to okay okay now I will point out that if I still have this the number of bills in 2023 you'll see that at 3,000 gallons and under there was 85 we start to get in every 600 gallon increment over 300 okay it's when we get to around sorry ah uh around 12,500 12,600 gallons that we start to see a decrease yeah in the number of users for every 600 gallons and that Trend continues and becomes a lot more drastic till you get around that 200 Mark around 15,000 gallons which tells me the majority of residents use 15,000 gallons of water or less a year per year then after 15,000 is where you start seeing 221s 200s less than 200 the trend continues downward this spreadsheet would have gone on forever yeah yeah if I didn't cut it off at 24,000 gallons cuz at 20 at just under 24,000 gallons 57 users used within that 600 gallons in a quarter range so after that you've got very very high consumption so that's so that's the second question right so I've got my first question answered I got my second question answered my last one which I don't I don't know if anyone can give me an answer to this is what are we doing or what can we do in terms of cost reductions when we're talking about other operating salaries wages medical benefits all that stuff what can we do obviously you're not going to save money Church Street repairs because if you don't do a church treat repair you got a big problem well I I I I'll address that one real quick was if we actually did a project to address that once and for all instead of spending $120,000 a year there's a good chance we could eliminate $120,000 or at least reduce that down significantly by putting new pumps in we we replaced pumps we replace shafts constantly burning stuff out because the pump station's more than 20 years old yeah and we're putting Band-Aids on instead of Designing a project putting it out for bid and fixing it um with that being said um what else can we do to reduce costs when the finance committee went through the budget numbers to come up with that 4.3 $4.2 million um we looked at things like how some people in the electric utility salaries were allocated into the water utility so we switched them out we said no they belong in electric they're electric guys then we realized well some of the water guys are also built to Electric so we moved them over completely it turned out to be essentially a wash and that was without getting into what portion of the tax collector's office what portion of the ba salary and everyone else should be allocated to Water and Sewer so we started looking at those numbers how do we chop things and really it becomes preventative maintenance we've done a good job using state grants over the last few years kudos to to you and and the previous administration for securing those grants and getting work done but it hasn't been enough we've neglected the system for years and years and years because we're too afraid of residents getting frustrated and unfortunately with everyone here tonight I think we realize this is an issue that cannot be avoided costs go up and if we continue to ignore the things that cost money the costs will just be more next year another Rider Lane water main break well there goes 80 grand in the budget we got to get off of that cycle it's why for several years I've proposed discussions with some of the private utilities middle sex water New Jersey American they have the capacity to absorb some of those costs of maintaining and improving a system and share it amongst all their users as opposed to only the residents of miltown it's economies of scale we are at a Crossroads and we need to either pull up our pants and put on our belts and suspenders and either spend a lot of money to fix the problem or bury our heads in the sand and hope it goes away and I think the latter would only lead to the complete detriment of the burrow miltown well American Waters in North Brunswick and they get their their uh water from the canal so I don't know if it's a direction to possibly go well we we pull Canal water too New Brunswick does when there's not enough in the r and middle sex water supplies and bulk the city of uh or Township of East Brunswick so I bring those up because those are the two closest connections for large capacity other than the city of New Brunswick and Both have expressed interest in the borrow of miltown that rich house their prices compared to ours well it's something we'd have to look at but one of the benefits with that I don't want to get go down a side road here we got to work on these but one of the benefits is they absorb all your debt service all your old costs they buy the system from the from the town it's their responsibility at their point they also bill monthly which is easier for some people yeah but that aside to answer your question councilman that's where we're at with trying to reduce the costs I think it's imperative that we continue to try to do so but I think we need to all go into this with the realization that whatever costs annually we can save will probably have to be added back on in the form of debt service to make improvements to the system councilman Zan if I may for the council also the public one of the big cost drivers is the health insurance increase with the state health benefits plan uh maybe two or three months ago we made a considerable effort and went out to the marketplace to change our benefits to the council to the council my next question so we using our insurance broker and we collected all this data uh and we went out to the marketplace to try to find cheaper health insurance understanding full for everyone here is that we're required to have equal to or better than benefits in accordance with the Union contracts okay so but we were unable to get to secure anybody who even bid for our benefits so we couldn't even have a conversation where we could make some plan changes or do some things where we could reduce that cost to the burrow unfortunately but we we did spend considerable time in the clerk's office and in the insurance broker to find a better plan or equal to a better than plan at a reduced cost for the burrow unsuccessful yep no so Council I do have one comment was that the microphone please may those M those those numbers that you see that's gallons per quarter not per year so think I was referring to council president's uh um when he said uh, 15,000 gallons that's total total usage yeah um my my question is you know if we stay with the tier system and figure it out that way um I think we need to really address and look at um the 7500 gallons that's tier one 0 to 7500 gallons I think that should be reduced uh and I think we should work on what that should be reduced to and that covers seniors and singles and my term of singles and seniors are single family unit um you know single person and seniors uh who don't use a lot of water uh currently right now 7500 gallons uh a lot of of those individuals don't use up to 7500 gallons it's a lot less and they're getting hit the higher fees um for their non-usage so what do you want to charge them uh well I think we need to lower that I think we need to go down to say 35 3700 gallons May sure let's use numbers that are divisible by three because we BR quarterly so why don't we stick around this uh 4200 gallons how about that yeah that's that's close enough sure what do you want to them for that 15,000 number works out to being 3750 per quarter as gallons so if we're at 4200 as a minimum you know we're yeah you're in the ballpark you're in the ball exactly so so what do you want to charge them for 4200 gallons or less so I think right now the old ordinance prior to 2024 was $116 that's right that was in 208 she want to do $116 she knows the numbers right I think that's what it was I have it on a thumb drive but we'd have to just look at it 11689 thank you thank you 11689 all right let's let's go back to 2018 that was just water oh that was just water 167 change it was total 167 I'm going to plug 168 in just so we're not dealing with the pennies 16597 is water and sewer the PR one to be exact 165.7 is water and sewer 16597 okay let me just hit equals boom we're going to do that all the way through everybody okay and then at 4,200 gallons or $4,200 let's see where's my gallons total number of gallons I can have fun with this one right so we said 4200 right 4 sum of this is Joe can you write this down 1 37 4 3 3.7 okay you got that yep okay so we're $623,000 short if we go with 16597 I'm going to divide that number by what was it Joe 137 4337 and you get $453 per th000 gallons oops sorry about that we've got some 30s in here $18.75 cents per thousand gallons that breaks us dead even that's for anyone who uses a gallon more than 4,200 that's 1875 per th000 years 1875 per th000 how come that last colum all L 16897 because that would be the minimum bill that everybody pays it does but that's what that would be the that's what the the gallons the additional gallons over 4,200 you would be charged the 18875 but just like we have today everyone pays that minimum 7,500 gallon fee and then if you use more than $7,500 you pay the dollars per gallon so it goes up something like $4 for tier two per G per thousand gallons $10 for tier three and $16 per tier four something like that well I I will say and I've said this to every council member up there um I am in disagreement with the tier system the reason for that is if you are generating profit off of every gallon I buy and profit I mean covering our budgets why does my buying of more result in me paying a penalty typically in business if you buy more you pay less but what's related to a gas station if I go there and I fill up my truck every single day I pay the same dollars per gallon they don't hit me with a search charge because I showed up every day but if you buy electric what do you pay you pay more the more you use we have no way to determine when the person's using it if it's Peak demand or on or not or what time of year or what time of day our large users once they go to a certain tier they go higher not in our electric rates and quite frankly we're talking about the high users who utilize their sprinklers at 4:00 in the morning so they're not necessarily creating a massive additional demand upon our system and taking away from someone else's use so I mean a guy who fills his pool at 500 gallons a month gets to 6,000 gallons over the course of the year as opposed to filling it all in one month so is it in the mix that there may be no tier to this I I'm I'm against tiers but look that's me five five other people up here and perhaps the mayor who have to determine what's appropriate how much is our current charge Rich 285 for water sewer no uh the sorry that's the current that's the current that's with that's the new but that's with the 150 in it isn't it yes yeah $150 charge yeah so these are the numbers that were introduced in 2018 and were're current up to June of this year 16597 now if you guys want to throw a tier in here all I got to do is type in a number through our towns that have no tiers but they have um compensation for seniors credits Mr zanga how many senior citizen accounts I when you and I spoke earlier there was uh number of registered seven listed on the tax roles that qualify for a tax deduction for senior citizen seven State limits for limited income that would enable them to put a freeze on their taxes and then we had some additional you had uh mentioned fully disabled veterans I believe as well yes veterans Widow of veterans I think the total came to about 167 that get a tax deduction through the state of New Jersey through miltown so I think it was 17 167 in total so I would I would argue that if you're going to offer a tax deduction you stick to certain parameters that already exist which would be they meet the state requirements for low income or moderate income based on their age and freeze their taxes as well as disabled veteran status if you want to give them a discount of 200 bucks well that's how many did you say 200 time two times 167 is everybody in total sure so if I do I can go up here love Excel anyone who doesn't like Excel let's talk because to me it is a godsend 167 let's say we give them back $200 each okay that's $33,000 so it still doesn't really come close to it's a small small amount which may be significant to them but $33,000 is nowhere near our current increase between the 24 budget and the 25 rich just put in $200 in instead of 16507 see what we come out with uh you want the minimum fee to be $200 right let's go to the vide tape what does that come out to oh $16.20 per thousand still in the red still not enough we're 2 million short two million if you do the tier goes up per tier correct that's that would be the minimum you want to create an additional dollar per gallon or $2 or $3 per thousand gallons based on a tier give me a tier give me a dollar and I'll put it in what's our tier now 15,000 I think and how how much 0 to 7500 75 to 15 15 to 225 and then over 225 and how much is it per tier now I don't know am I the only one who has a computer or a calculator come on guys that's Mr Mayor I think we've heard a lot of the council comments would you be willing to open it up to let some residents speak their mind on on things councilman pansy do you have any more questions uh not on this but I'd like to bring up as far as the electric rates no we this don't just this we'll come we'll come back to the rest of the I was just going to make I just like to say we also you don't Rich you failed to mention the uh also that we have to drain the lines by law I think we're supposed to what drain the lines so a lot of these socaled shortage is going through the fire the the the hydrant flushing does contribute to the 20 million gallons of water and the fires which nobody wants anybody to have a fire and and perhaps once we have all the new meters installed we can set it and say how much did we use the week before we started doing hydrant flushing that residents utilized and compare that to Total usage from New Brunswick for that week during the hydrant flushing record that data and then the week after hydrant Flushing record that data and we should be able to at least somewhat ascertain an average of how much water we utilize as a town that we pay for in order to do the state mandated hydron flushing but you can't do that without the technology to get the data and hopefully we'll have that in nine months if you're an engineer you could do the flow rate I'm not an engineer not a licensed engineer hand of God I me we should be able to figure out a flow rate coming out of that water 100 for the water pressure so councilman um council president also the tier uh 7500 to 15,000 gallons is 1098 per th000 right what's that dollar amount increase over the dollars per gallon for 7500 or less there isn't right uh so it's just 1098 it's 1098 plus uh this was the older one for uh quarterly 7520 that's Water and Sewer no just water just water SE was 411 15 see look I don't even need to calculate you just hit equals the plus sign and then 4.11 Bazinga and then tier two is is 15,000 uh 15,1 to 225 is $13.76 per th000 gallons plus sewer yes plus sewer and what's the sewer amount $5.75 and then we 90 grand the next tier is $16 over 225,000 gallons is $16.54 cents per th000 gallons we're in the green 16,000 what $16.54 for water and then sewer is $85 good it's way there you go $329,000 rate by increasing your minimum to $200 what's our current minimum charge 165 it was 165 the old rate now the new rate is three what 336 thank you which we knew 36 if I plug in 336 everyone's going to think it's amazing yeah 31622 is the rates that are in effect right now 31622 that's it yeah that's the one I this sarter yeah $1.5 million in Surplus congratulations so we well we want to bring that which we want yeah I think that's we had the conversations I talked with Mr Veno and Mr uh zanga we talked about the original uh if we roll that back to the 165 number uh Mr venola was talking about 25% and then Mr zanga reran the number and then I asked him to run the numbers at 50% of the increase the 24 increase the the one we did this year the June increase so Mr zanga if you can just tell um Rich what we came up I wish you told me this when you did it yeah so the ordinance that's in effect right now had a $150 125 increase per quarter we did did a half which is $754 I think it came to so that would generate $860,000 for next year to balance the budget but remember though that would go to effect on April 1st not for the first quarter of 25 you still possibly have an issue with the first quarter of 26 because that'll be less Revenue than the first quarter of 25 because it's the old rates the rates are in effect right now so but that would possibly balance the budget I could run numbers even thorough more thorough but that could possibly balance the budget in 25 and that's with the tier system that's leaving everything else alone just taking the base rate and making that $75 higher instead of $150 higher okay so minimum fee would be 241 everything else the same right now you got 753 left right you got 7 36 to 241 sure what talking now making SP so I do want to give uh councilman Potter you let's just see coun you questions cuz then I want to open it up to the floor yeah no I'm good I you indicated the stuff that I had so so that we're on the same page here when you're talking about q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 are those regular quarters January to March April to June July to September October to December or yes or different well since not everyone is build at the same time um not everyone's buildt at the same time so q1 could be people build January through through March February through April um or it could be just the bills that are distributed in January February March billing date more than anything yeah I believe it's the billing date okay but it's not the same time period right right right because for those residents who don't know and another reason why I don't like the tier system is we only Bild onethird of the town every month for water so if you fall if your billing cycle falls in June July and August that's your three months even if you use the same amount of water in June as your neighbor or someone else in a different cycle same amount of water in July and the same amount of water in August because you have your three highest use months in one bill you get kicked to a higher tier and pay more dollars per gallon that doesn't seem fair to me if I may since this is a working meeting point do you want councilman MCO do you have any questions or comments hopefully so yeah we should open it up to the public do you have any questions I did for a second I wanted I wanted to get every council member on record whether they had any questions or comments first to let them so let's open up the floor um turn the lights back on please let's be mindful of the council members and myself um that you know they're all we're all pushing to get this done um unfortunately it took longer than expect it so go ahead you had your hand up people aren't making any decisions please remember your name and address for the record we're just talking about this right now yes correct I'm Bill Murray no relation five Karina I actually agree with Joe no tier system what you it makes sense what you use you get paid for the budget guys figure out how much it is for the budget you said $4 million divide it in whatever it is I don't know could be $6 a gallon for water that's what it should be it shouldn't be the more you use the more you pay it doesn't make sense but government doesn't make sense so that's my opinion and I think it would be fair for a lot of people a uh a large family it's not fair somebody has a pool it's not fair somebody who wants to have a beautiful lawn not fair okay that's my opinion good point heny Merton's 156 re Avenue um as far as $80,000 for the rers Lan watermain break I know what that brake should cost a repair it's not $80,000 L that repair sleeve is made out of unicorn hair for an 8 in cast iron brake that's absurd um going to try not to get into Personnel issues here but the borrow just gave out big raises and hire two guys who are supposed to be able to do Street work call in a machine operator bring in a bring in a dump truck zip the road and do the ad in do the ad in repair it's not a big deal goes right into cost reductions $80,000 I don't care what the county road bond is to open up Rider's Lane $80,000 is not reasonable as far as the meter the meter replacement and everything I know you guys are doing the service line inventory with it there's some problems with this um if we do this this service the meters in the service line inventory in 2025 and the 26 it's got to be submitted to the D by July of 26th that's the 2027 budget year you're not going to know what your obligation is for replacing lead service lines until 2027 that gives you four years to get them all done I sent out or I submitted to the board in June uh correspondence from the D that said finally as a reminder water systems are responsible for the coordination of all lead or galvanized service line Replacements regardless of ownership Water Systems must coordinate the lead service line replacement program in their service area for both the public and private side of the service line in miltown it's all private you still have to run the system you still have to run the replacement system Water Systems may not leave the replacement of lead G lead or galvanized lines up to the homeowner as it's the water system's responsibility to ensure that the lead and galvanized service lines are replaced you do not have to pay for the portion the the borrow does not have to pay for the report for any portion of the replacement that they don't own you can back build the customer but you have millions of dollars that aren't accounted for in this budget of unfunded liability so we can kick water rates around all we want it doesn't reflect what your actual liabilities are and I know Mr Carr you said that it's it's that it's the onuses on the residents to replace it I don't know any Resident who's going to be volunt like Ford Avenue I don't know any Resident who's going to be volunteering for an 80 foot longside service going under a concrete road it's going to be 25 Grand so the borrow needs to get prices together and know what their actual liabilities are before they start kicking around budget numbers none of these numbers matter right now you have no idea what your liabilities are so they could drop the rates now from 316 to 241 that's fine in three years the budget's going to be the the minimum payment is going to be $400 to pay for all these lead service lines I feel like I'm standing up here like chick and little yelling that the skies falling every 4 months you got to you got to know what you have to pay and we don't there's been no like true rate study done it's it's just getting to be that you're going to price out the the residents with the utility that's it Rosa Taris 100 Reva Avenue thank you for this meeting um it's a much more productive meeting than last time so I don't have a law degree and I'm certainly not a mathematician so but the deficit that we had of $344,000 in the water and sore budget will that be reconciled by the end of December 2024 with the sech charge that was passed on to us yes ma'am yes so as of December yes so the intent was so reason we passed it in June or that ordinance with that monstr se charge was to get to that end of this year budget number based on our math in June okay so so it's fair to say then that's starting in January the liability to the burrow from the city of New Brunswick is that 35% annual increase correct correct which is that in place for the entirety of the agreement with New Brunswick because that's a 12year agreement six year agreement from January 1st of 2021 to December 31st of 2033 that's 12 years years I believe I believe the rates are struck for the next five years but the at three and a half yes but the agreement itself is long longer lasting because we have to have a place to get our work right so that then that brings me to the next question which is what are the terms of that agreement because I looked for them online the resolution page that when it was adopted states that um excuse me it states that the um agreement is is attached but it's not attached so is that public and where would I find it if you email me I can give you a copy okay cuz it's not on the website so I was just wondering we can we we can provide that that's easy okay because so so then the 3 and half% per year is for the next five years correct okay so I believe it started in 2023 correct raise it and it's going to go I think to 29 Council Colin's microphone please sorry thank you I believe it's going to go to 2029 but it's basically eight8 over 18% over that span of time right okay and so so so in terms of what New Brunswick is charging us it's an increase an annual increase of 3 and a half% the rest of the so that's the 1 million of of what we purchase yeah right but then the rest is in operating expenses in the department so I've lived in miltown for 20 years and I'm quite sure that in that 20 years salaries have been increased health insurance has been increased there's been increases why are we in this position now all of a sudden like I understand inflation we've all we're all living it but this is I mean it's being passed on to us so then the question is why is the onus all on us as residents like I understand paying for water however you tear it you don't tear It Whatever the expenses you okay so I understand New Brunswick is coming up with this fancy water system and we're Renters of the water so we have to pay our share I get that but the rest why aren't we talking about ways to come up with funds to pick up the rest of that in the budget there we have limited revenue streams and honestly I think part of the outrage and concern that we have today especially is failure to act since 2018 over the past five years and then the times before that and making water rates a very political issue as opposed to sitting down and understanding it's the cost of doing business because if if the burrow went up 3 and a half% every year or 4% every year or 5% every year I think the residents would say okay we're used to this we anticipate a little bit more right but getting hit over the head with 150 bucks or double the the amount it hurts no one's prepared for that especially when you've seen nothing in in several years and by the way I'm in that household that falls under the seniors I'm a single person in a household so I got you know my last uh quarter uh bill was I had less usage and I paid more only to be followed Two Weeks Later by a notice that said that my water had high levels of uh tthm which by the way apparently occurred between July 1st of 2024 and September 30th of 2024 I was notified in October no big deal but you know what I got a notice that says date distributed there's no date on here so I would respectfully ask for more transparency we have a great system of communication between the town and the residents nixel I get emails about garbage changes in garbage collection about um curfew on Halloween evening this is something that I should have been notified about in nixel and I think other people who got this notice probably feel the same I think that's fair and you know okay so I didn't need to get it in the mail that's that's a that's an expense that the township incurs right didn't need to be you could just send it out on email so I know my time is limited so I have a couple of other questions that have to deal with budget um is the township under any obligation to provide and I don't know what the township does in terms of health benefits to employees do you pay the full cost of health benefits so so we uh so we pay our portion uh there is a tiered uh system in the state of New Jersey or based on your income level you pay a portion of your health care costs that you have so if you're a family plan or a single plan the top contribution is 35% of the cost of the health care plan and that cost is at the salary level of like $100,000 now everybody below that and that was set in by 2010 by the by the legislature So based on your salary in the borrow you pay a percentage of the benefits that you choose uh the borrow then pays the rest we also have an opportunity that if you have uh a spouse or a significant other that has Healthcare benefits you can opt out for uh if you will a cash payment if you will to not take the benefits which is $5,000 or 25% of the cost of the health care whichever is less and that's hard baked into the code okay so that is that does apply to burrow employees absolutely yes ma'am and so back to your other question is that on the trihalomethanes during the htic acid and the trihalomethanes were required to provide written notice by D to the residents so the reason you got that letter is because we're required to do that by D I totally agree if I can blow an email out to everybody or Exel it'd be a lot cheaper and a lot easier but D is not there right but I received it correct after that three Monon Peri so we have to go through a portion where the lab results go to it's a it's a very you are correct at the time of exceedence of the tri methanes we hit the bar that report goes to then our friends in D the lab results who then Ed who then send the notice we and the burrow then we have a statutory time to send that notice out to you guys unfortunately when we had the draft letter that you then got when they mailed the letter they sent the letter out with the they sent the wrong draft everything was right except the letter the date they forgot the date and we had to send it again okay okay um the last question was about um or comment is about something that was in one of the budget lines which was um water meters $10,000 so is that for the cost of the meters themselves and is that in addition to the almost $80,000 that are going to be paid out to an engineer to replace them I had my water meter replaced by the township everything went smoothly was in and out 10 minutes so I guess the question is why are I think water meters have been changed for a long time does it is it required for an engineer to do it cu the township handled handled it beautifully in my experience I'm sure I know I was advised when they came in that something might go wrong if the pipe busted whatever but they did a fine job job and so I'm wondering if we already have people on the payroll who are able to change the meters why we need an engineering firm the sheer volume uh is why we're using a subcontractor and the engineering firm is simply overseeing and uh basically coordinating between the town and that firm and watching to make sure that that that's a high cost for overseeing and again we're paying for it yeah I get what you're saying but they're not doing the actual work Mr the contract so the contractor that's doing the water meter replacement program is Corin Maine so last year about this time the borrow purchased about 550 water meters using old grant money from a previous project uh We've replaced you got lucky uh and Don of the boys have gotten about 50 meters in other than fixing you know just trying to get meters replaced so at the rate they're going it's going to take them about 11 years to go through those those 550 meters that we already have Sitting on a shelf up in public works can you know with the meter replacement program our loss of water that we've spoken about those 500 that are up there still in the in my box in public works plus our requirement as the previous gentleman talked about inventorying the lead pipes uh we have segwayed using Grant monies that we had previously for water line replacement into repurposing that money into the meter replacement program to go to the mayor's question or the council's question is when we get closer to the portion of the conversation if you will where we now say all right we've replaced the meters we're getting close now let's repurpose that money it's simply a matter of going to D or DCA where we got the money and say look we have money left over we'd like to not replace this water line or these meters they're very amenable to that that's how we got in both of these grants for the public we have two $1 million grants of which we received already $750,000 upfront you know in the account uh we passed earning earning interest yeah so it's sitting there waiting for us to bill against and then you know that's part of the job that I do uh and the finance officer we have to send all these bills up you know about a thousand pages of paper to prove that we spent the money correctly in accordance with our laws so is it safe to assume then that the um replacement of those lead lines from the street to the homes that residents won't be able to tap into those funds until all the water meters are replaced so The Replacements are our current ordinance has responsibility the individual homeowner from the house to the main so that main that's where we are today how do we move forward in the future in a city where we don't qual qualify because of our income level like Newark or Irvington or Detroit where all these federal funds came in and paid for the replacement of the water those lead lines from the main or the mains themselves to the house okay so we we're going to have to either a pay for them ourselves okay and eat the cost in our rates like any other meter replacement program or water man replacement or we go to a convers ation where the Burl hires the engineering firm or somebody to individually inspect and then replace that leadline service line from the meter in all the way through the so now we have 10,000 or 20,000 or as a gentleman said $80,000 and then we assess the homeowner on their taxes put them on the easy payment plan but this requires considerable knowledge and time and effort to then come up with those numbers which I've done it and Joe's done it just on a sidewalk replacement program it takes an unbelievable amount of time and effort and Engineering to get to that point where I can say to replace your leadline it's going to cost you ma'am $20,000 you can do it yourself or if the borrow does it for you we will assess you on your property taxes for the next 10 years and the council will then have to make some fundamental changes or decisions do we wave the interest or do we charge you for it do we put you on the easy payment plan which is 10 years at 2,000 a year and it's on your taxes and you take it off your taxes as a special assessment and if you then sell your home the full amount comes due at the sale but we're way way way far away from that discussion good thank you thank you for your time could you ma'am you need so that's your receipt you could just send me an email and we'll send you the document you want oh sure yeah it's okay Kimberly kup sack 151 South Moes uh thank you for this conversation um I appreciate that this is not an easy solution this is probably a shortterm solution but as a resident here for a long time what's going on is not sustainable so I on behalf of the other citizens as council president revolinsky has said we need to think long term managing it internally and paying high salaries for a very very tiny town does not work so looking at Outsource options would be really good on top of knowing it's going to increase 3 and a half% and I can't even drink my water I would not let my children drink it I don't know anyone who would drink the tap water unless it's filtered in this town and if you do it's your choice but I wouldn't recommend it I think that the old system isn't working continuing to do it isn't going to work and some action is needed understanding increasing the water rates doing the calculations this year this quarter even into next year but what is the long-term plan because you're not only going to price out seniors you're going to price out amilies no one is going to be able to afford living here despite inflation which is everywhere and New Jersey is expensive it is extremely expensive to live here to have kids go to the public schools to have to have our taxes increase 16% during the pandemic it's not sustainable so appreciate your time appreciate everyone's conversation but just requesting on behalf of citizens to please consider that other options in planning in the future Years thank you FR I might to interrupt the res but could you tell us a little about that sewer upch charge that we got uh hit with the one that we passed in June right the one they gave us $200,000 Bill and said oh you owe us this money from this year it's it's the the reup after at the end of the year when when new brunic looks at how much they build you on average they they basically bill you what they expect you to use and at the end of the year they go by the way you use this much here's what you owe us but the county also build us for that too correct so the the the reup if you will or the true up of our usage for water and sewer is much like if you're on the easy payment plan for jcpnl or New Jersey natural gas on the level payment plan they estimate how much you're going to use based on a previous year but then based on what goes through the meter so what goes through Brunswick is metered meter it's coming in and coming out so they so they they base that and that water coming in from Brunswick okay is metered based on our usage okay they estimated it and then when they trew up they sent us a bill I think two years ago maybe three years ago we actually got a credit okay $220,000 a credit in the years in the other year in the year past which was used to balance the anticipated budget of the following year instead of looking at it as the oneoff unusual occurrence that should not be relied upon as standard revenue or standard cost of operations because the majority of the time we owe more money to New Brunswick at the end of the year as opposed to getting a credit back I thought we paid the county to extra on that the NCR you talked about the Utilities Authority right so if I yeah so the Utilities Authority charges Bruns take it which we yeah which we then pay they baill us it's sewer though it's all sewer correct it's all the sewer right sewer makes up majority of our bill not our water correct but when when they when the when the Utilities Authority as Mike said bails Brunswick they just pass it on to us and I will say so in your previous question to comment about the flushing of the hydrant and the flow rate it really doesn't matter if it goes fast or goes slow we paying for it wait we're paying for yeah I'd like to say I'm sorry sorry Doug Balentine one start up Drive um I did a calculation on on the fire hydrant it's about a million million to 2 million gallons for the whole town each time they flush them do they do it once a year or twice a year two times a year right about pick the water take it to the fire department fill up your trucks dump it in pool do something with the water sell it somewhere Farmers could have used it I mean you're just stumping it down the Sur um you know I get this notification of the water rates increase with the bill it's not right Joe Panza 15 Bruce Court um I've been coming here since June uh we were raised 90% I was told it was just going to be one time now it's going to be at least two um another meeting uh a little while ago uh 70% increase Was Defeated okay but the 90% stays in place not okay now we are stuck with a 90% increase going forward and I think I heard someone say earlier uh 25 or 45% increase would balance the budget for 2024 uh I'm sorry 2025 so I do respect uh other residents talking about longterm but you guys need to fix this particular thing now so I would recommend that okay you know we're talking about transparency you're going to get my bill was $336 128 when it's normally about 168 okay I'll pay it again but I nor anyone else here should have to pay going forward after I pay it again the same amount if if if 25% or 45% is going to cover the budget just pass it for now and then work on the long-term solution solons uh you know lots lots of times compromise equals progress and you know and sometimes you have to do it in steps so I shared my plan with the finance committee uh recently uh last week I think it was November 13th I got no response that's fine I shared my thoughts with the entire mayor and Council in June no response that's fine but you know here I am again in November and whatever it's going to take to make 2025 work make it work and then you know think about long term um you you can only do so much and right now you need to you need to fix 2025 and then roll up your sleeves and and and work on the long-term issues and you know it it's not easy I know it but you know get get this done uh I I came up W without the information I needed I came up with 30% increase all right maybe that's not enough fine so 45 I think I heard 45 would work make it work thanks for your time Mr zga um microphone I'm sorry what what do we do to get someplace here that people will understand and go along with what do we do here I mean I mean really a governing body decision you've heard all different angles what are you doing on the base rate or well when was the last time there was uh an increase aside from this past 201 2018 okay and and costs of everything have risen since then we we've gone through covid we've gone through astronomical rises in in in uh taxes fuel food everything else and it's reflected here no one here is trying to hurt anyone in town we all live here and we want the same we want the best for everyone here and and and it's it's like when um maybe someone was trying to assign flame here the way I look at it is it it doesn't matter who was in office you face it you fix it and move on and that's where we need to be at right now and it's not an easy fix and we're all affected here no one here is trying to hurt anyone there there's no one here having any kind of a gain from the water situation we all see the same thing you see and and like I said I'm a leon to the senior center and I have to face those people so it it it's a hard situation for all of us and and if if if you'd like for anyone and um I'll welcome uh Miss Payne aboard um run for office and do what we're doing and do a better job than us it's easy to put blame on people that sit up here but people can come up here and do the same thing that we're doing yes Sir Richard Ryan 67 Main Street mtown New Jersey I've said this before here with regard to this issue um and I don't mean this in any derogatory sort of way to any volunteer employee or professional any elected official the fact is we're not suited to run these utilities and we have haven't been for a very long time and there's dozens and dozens of reasons why not this chart but the other one we can see all the expenditures in there but we don't maybe Al we don't all see exactly what they are like the burrow pool it's a microcosm of the war utility it really is does it make any money any year just operated a loss every single year right so you're asking residents taxpayers to subsidize the pool okay there's debate clearly as to um in a tiered system who's subsidizing who right and I suspect everybody on the bottom side of that line is going to feel differently than everybody on the top side of that line but what's fair is fair and if it has to be a multi-layered system then it has to be I'm not interested in paying for millions of gallons in Lost water because we can't properly run a utility department I'm not paying for the water in the borrow hole right I don't want to pay for the salaries and benefits of employees that can't do the job in those departments because they're under man to begin with set aside whether or not some individuals have certain skill sets that enable them to possibly do that work okay so we run for these positions right and then we discover every problem and issue and it's overwhelming to us so sometimes it is kicking to can down the road but not always sometimes we're really trying to resolve it we come to a head at some point though when we really have to deal with it as Mr P said as did many others and so I say get out of the business because if you get out of the business then it's my feeling mayor and councel no matter who we are no matter how it changes from election cycle to election cycle is then into business for one reason only to act in the best interest of the taxpayers residents of this community with regard to negotiating the contract with the private utility provider that's the business you should be in and then it's pretty cut and dry every single time and we don't have to fight about 2018 versus 2024 right we don't have to sit here and count votes about this side did that or this side did that that's BS solve the problem it's pretty simple if you're look at it that way there's many different ways that you can resolve it but my personal feeling is get out of the business thank you [Applause] that's it I'd like to say as in aside the electric situation microphone please the electric situation coming up is is going to be a problem also and and I think it's maybe time to consider going with psng well the the only problem I don't know do you want to oh Joe had a question Joe want to come back I will just say this I was I was a member of the electric utility when we built what we built up the hill and the first thing the committee did was to put our utility for sale there was no interest that's all I have to say about that I I just wanted to add uh Rich rinsky 14 on with drive from miltown New Jersey um that we take about $1.3 million in profit from the electric utility to balance our budget to operate the burrow of miltown instead of taxes instead of taxes so if we got rid of that not only would we have to sell it for upwards of $20 million but we'd have to find a way to make sure that the money's not wasted over the 20 years while we build up the tax base and decrease our dependency off of electric with water we can sell it cuz we lose money we don't need it but electric that's our bread winner unfortunately we're married to it so this past week at the league of municipalities I did have the conversation with uh East Brunswick's mayor uh Brad Cohen about uh what they do for their utilities uh they actually have American War order uh and I think they go into mcua for sewer so when we talk about selling the uh utility the water utility system uh it's two parts uh and correct me if I'm wrong Mr zanga um so you have it's easy enough to say yeah we could sell the American Water that's the that would be the easier of the two but it we still would get hit with the sewage uh currently right now in correct me if I'm wrong Mr Veno um don't we have a contract where we can't buy from East Brunswick because we're buying from New Brunswick uh and our sewage goes into New Brunswick or can we I would need to look into that I don't it's have research or something yeah I thought I read something where we couldn't purchase from say East bronswick American Water to go into the sewer system of new bronck so we'd have to figure that out it would it would negate the uh the agreement we have with New Brunswick because New Brunswick currently here's another fun fact folks there's something called I and I infiltration and inflow when it rains and that water on the street goes into a manhole or into a storm drain that's connected to the sewer system not storm drains but the sewer system it increases your flow that's called inflow infiltration comes from leaking sewer pipes underground where Roots have separated them but it's okay the sewage is still flowing we pump more sewage to New Brunswick in gallons than we purchase in water but our agreement with New Brunswick States they're only allowed to bill us for how much water we buy so we're actually benefiting from it and part of the problem we've never reinvested in our sewer system because that costs money and right now it's not a problem because it doesn't cost us additional money it's going to cost us a lot of money when Ford Avenue gets built or over by Acme and things like that and we have larger capacity issues and we say let's try and get away from New Brunswick and go directly to mcua for a $20 million Force M that would cost us a million dollars a year in debt service to pay off there are no simple quick fix Solutions and certainly not ones that I think based on $150 per quarter sear charge any resident would be interested in taking on but if we don't act and we continue as as one resident said continue to do the same thing and somehow expect a different result in the end we're we're kidding ourselves and we're going to be right back here in three years we can put our best foot forward now but we drastically need to change the way we look at owning and operating our Utility Systems thank you Mr Mayor I'll step back to you close the public portion now and I'd like to go through I mean one last time here with the council one more two go ahead still Richard Ryan um I have a question for the attorney and um I'm going to ask you just to refresh me if you can um I'm a little uncomfortable with the language uh we're referring to this as search charge and I recall about uh 13 or 14 years ago there was an issue with a search charge on our water sewer rate bills this isn't a search charge well I just want to clarify that because that's a lot of the people are using that language so can can you just spell that out for us the difference between what that would be and what we're trying to accomplish here this is just a rate this is a rate that rirs pay microphone please yeah thank you if you hadn't put the camera right in my face I would be able to sit where I usually sit um no this is this is not a search charge this is this is part of your rate structure so your utility bills for consumption and what the uh council did was it raised the minimum fee for consumption to guarantee that it would uh recapture the amount needed in the bills issued in the fourth quarter of 2024 to make sure the uh budget was balanced so you ter term SE charge is probably just used as a layman's terms to explain what the increase was most likely but it's it's not a sirar charge it's it's not an additional charge over and above it's just part of your rate structure I rich I think also the councilman Collins talked about a $220,000 search charge from Brunswick on our water bills it was not a search charge it was the true up of our of our numbers understand okay so then the last question is still Rosa Taris the last question is if it was not a search charge and it was a rate increase can we expect that increase in every quarter going forward and for how long so that's I know that's what we're trying to figure out here but we haven't well that that's that's exactly it is it was introduced to make sure we could pay the bills and we had the money to balance the budget in order for it to go away the reason we didn't put an end date on it was to make sure we adopted rates that however unpopular they may be solve the budgetary problems for at least next year so we're not at this place next October or if correct if we adopt new rates before December 31st of this year then the $150 correct me if I'm wrong Joe would be applied to your January February March bills because that water usage was before December 31st right you're we're always a little bit Lake CU we're billing by a quarter okay okay but after March all of that moving forward would not have the $150 increase it would only be the new rates the new rate but you have to adopt it 3 months prior because you cannot increase someone's rate for water they've already used and people who get their bill in January have used water in December and November right as well as October and then February November and December and nove March would be Janu January February and December usage so so have to do it you have to time it properly okay sorry so that's why it's important to do it now yes got it absolutely no more questions from the audience all right I think we're going to close audience comments then uh for Council though what we need to do is we need to just figure out how come up with the two objectives one is the minimum gallon usage if we're going to do stay with the tier or what that charge is going to be if it's if we do something like this so that's what we need to try to come up with some sort of resolution because we need to try to get this before January we don't need to try to we need to yes like this is the same problem we've been having all along is we propose rates and everyone says yeah the numbers work but I don't necessarily like them we need to agree tonight that these are the numbers we want to give to our attorney to put into the ordinance correct so that we can adopt it in December 9th meeting and then the December 23rd meeting you guys come up with numbers tonight you guys can adopt an ordinance tonight we already have a draft just with numb you're going have a first reading tonight so fantastic you just have to put the numbers in and Joe just needs to verify that they they work yes the last numbers we came up with just to make sure can we just restate those so the last numbers we came up with were $241 minimum charge for up to 7,200 gallons again folks we have this broken down into 600 gallon increments after that $159 per th000 gallons for up to 15,000 gallons usage over 15,000 gallons usage would be 1951 per th000 gallons until you get to 22,000 gallons of usage which is $24.59 per thousand gallons and in the meantime during the discussions I've calculated out what those bills would look like quarterly if you fall into one of those tiers I also have the ability to look up your address for any council member who's interested in seeing what they would pay well we can't we shouldn't do that on the council floor I have no problem doing it let's with the camera but it does uh you do have a lot of additional information there so um I know that you and others have have gone over this quite a bit and I've I've seen the numbers um but I haven't had time I haven't had the chance to discuss with others and I feel pushed to to to to give you an answer right now when I know you've already decided and and Council MCO maybe maybe uh the mayor right and I I feel like I'd like time to actually think about this not feel like my arms tied behind my back well I I will say this whatever rates that the majority come up with you certainly welcome to vote now on uh I haven't decided I am open here to suggestion because for the last few months we've been doing the same thing playing volleyball and the ball's never landed so as I mentioned the word template we were looking for a template for what this could be to R through whatever we decide and everybody's input has been asked for repeatedly and and um the real nature of it is that um because I was about to say something the best thing with all the things we've said tonight this is a hideous statement my name is Frank I'm one of your counsilman uh you won't like it but bearing in the idea that someday we're going to have to do some serious work an extra 3% on top of the 241 would be $723 and if that went went into I don't know some type of fund that we could possibly build but we probably couldn't build it in a proper time frame to help def Fray the cost of the oncoming galvanized but that is trying to do something today trying to do something for the future either way it's talking about taking people's money it's always going to suck no one's going to like it um and it's my money too uh I mean I'm paying a bill Phil's got a bill here too I mean it there is no nice about this there is no easy way at some point um just like you know it's nice to get a new car it's not nice to have a car payment and you have to make that choice and we're going to make that choice and I'm a I'm a big proponent of just rip the Band-Aid off pick a number if it's if it does it and it does it then I guess it is what it is if we decide as a town in 3 months in four months that you hate it and you really want to have this meeting again I got to tell you this is a long meeting but I'm just happy that we've done something this is been amicable and I've gotten viewpoints thank you everyone thank you councilman for setting all this up for the mayor for calling for it and organizing it and whatever we do the reality is okay you're paying a buck 50 extra or we pick a new rate you don't like either but it's less mhm so I think maybe we've already done the compromise maybe we've kind of lead it out to where you know what this suffices that if next year is not broken and it's less than you got now and I'll tell you uh can we put on the agenda for next year on I know February the 3D meeting that will examine selling a water system and get a quote on what we can sell it for like I'm all about like let's do it in fact let's do it so well that we can do it once you know that's all my my initial comment on the water shut off or that first little proposal was the biggest problem is is that no one really wants to go by the way your rates going up three and a half% this year again we don't like that that no politician likes to have that conversation so let's just build it in where that's automatic it just happens it's not even negotiable because when you wait three months if you have a CFO leave if you have changes in administration suddenly now you got 6 months to make up that money that might have happened year it's just one of those things we got to get past it we got to set up a protocol that happens so that we spend less time talking about it and more time seeing what we can do to make it better councilman re just council president just by a show of hands do we have a minimum usage that or or does everyone agree that we should have a minimum usage amount in your bill but just but lower than 7500 gallons hold on does everyone want a minimum usage amount minimum usage okay I see yeah two three hands to clarify that the minimum usage guarantees a certain amount of billing that we can use it's just it's just your bill gets you x amount of dollars or x amount of gallons included in your minimum Bill okay so I see four here I'm going to assume that means yes we're going to put in minimum okay should it be less than 7500 less than where we are today yes or no show a hands I'm less than where we are today if I have to break the then yes 1 2 3 4 okay is everyone good with number 5,200 gallons just I'm sorry 5,400 for tier one for being the minimum amount included in your minimum quarterly amount includes 5400 gallons quar quarter so if if I mean real quick while we're deciding what this these tiers are what Monica's passing on are basically the the water sewer ordinance in blanks it's a blank it's a that's like a fill in a blank kind of a thing so that you can have something in front of you for your notes so if we come up with a number you have it in front of you of what we're going to buy or what we're going to do right we have not made a decision this is the blank Okay so we've got 5,000 um 5,400 gallons included in your minimum Bill everyone gets 5,400 [Music] Galls Jesus Christ um minimum fee $248 is the 45% increase plus as councilman moo recommended 3% that's 248 248 get you 45 or 5,400 that's water and S that's water and sore clearly this is this is up for discussion you want to go lower you want to go higher what do you want to do what's it 163 now it right now it is 36 22 but that then take away the 150 yeah it's so it's 166 something 16597 16597 that's what it is before this uh rate increase 165 Point yes and no cuz you you've you've changed your tier so I'm saying that's what it was no I understand but once once you change how many gallons you get for that minimum amount you've got to that you're no longer you're no longer apples we're we're just I'm just I'm just dollar value in that other tier yeah no I understand I just m bam so at the minimum use of 5,400 gallons included in your bill of 16597 we fall $526,000 short of the budget assuming that every gallon over 5,400 you pay $159 per thousand gallons so question number two other than the minimum Bill do we have another tier show our hands as far as adding another tier you got your minimum and then you've got right now a flat rate of 1509 per th000 gallons should we have another tier yeah yeah okay all right sounds like a yes the eyes have it where do you want that to be and what do you want it to look like well we had the tiers it was zero to you want to keep it at 15,000 0 to uh 3500 was tier one now previously you were at 7500 351 to 7500 would be tier 2 where did 3500 come from here we go that's for the low water and S4 5400 rather sorry you're at 5400 now you were at 7500 prev 7500 we we rolled it back so that would be tier one you were increments of 7500 and you had four tiers MH all in favor of setting another tier at 7500 rich I have a question what what do we need to achieve besides going over the budget the total revenue so because if that's the case then we work with our CFO to get how many tiers we need and what those tiers are so we're not playing let's this is what we've done for four five months but but let's work with let's decide on that I'm asking a question let's decide on that what we need in the revenue and then work with our CFO to get these numbers instead of sitting here till like 11 o'l at night with everybody watching us do this try to say where we're at because frankly we just got this Saturday a.m. this whole chart actually no no no no this chart you had it a few weeks ago no no no this chart that you sent I got Saturday a.m. I had the email with that and I was playing with numbers and I'm like so before we go for another hour trying to see how many tiers raise your hand let's work with our CFO let's figure out what the revenue is we need and let's come up with the tiers then and the money so that's just my recommendation so you don't want to take any further action tonight I would rather this work with our CFO because our CFO has been silent the whole time you know and we're up here trying to well good point cuz he these are our professionals we're paying our professionals can ask our CFO What He suggests well Council rabinsky tears or no tears we should look into both right now so that's what we're trying to do okay and then and then whatever we're going to do for seniors if we're nothing for seniors the senior the senior subject came out to like $33,000 which I think we can make up pretty quickly okay so if we stick with that philosophy Mr Zena do you have a recommendation for the C to try to wrap their hands around of the rate I mean really it's a governing body decision from my end it just has to bounce a budget how you get there is really how you guys want to do it whether you want to continue with teers whether you want to do what the council president said it's really your guys decision what you want to do my end of it I just want to see it balance a budget so we knew at 25% it would not balance the budget correct so at 50% it would balance the budget it would literally just make it so just on the base rate only on the base rate only so usage would stay or the tiers would stay the same level correct and that's just for 25 26 could possibly have an issue on the first quarter because those rates will be lower than the first quarter of 25 so did everyone understand that entertain me here we have to do this tonight you can't kick this till the next meeting yeah why well actually if we do it at the next one we that'll be the December 9th introduction and then the December 23rd adoption tell me why we can't do it that way I I I would appreciate it if we did it that way because I literally got this spreadsheet this morning well if if and I broke it I tried to break it it looks good if you want to do it that way look that's I would prefer for for finance and utilities come up with a rate because I know how you coming up with the rate that and that's all I needed to know now I know how the rate's being I know what you guys went through to get it to this this point come up with a rate and then let us all vote you either vote Yes or you vote but I think done I think what we need to also do is we need to've been down that road fix that right now we're at the $150 mark because right now if we don't fix it my understanding is we can introduce this at the next meeting we can pass it at the second meeting in December that rate goes away the the the minimum that's been in place I I get um y you know I've got my bill here I get it I see it I have no problem doing that uh I don't feel that every councilman over here with the exception of of of Mr Mano and and council president rinsky and by the way I appreciate you guys putting this together yeah we this is exactly what I've been looking for since earlier in the year take it to the next meeting let everybody digest it then we move on councilman Zam BR respectfully and truly I I I I do appreciate your compliments on putting this together it was not easy it took a lot of work no I don't I don't think it was my my concern about putting it to the next meeting is that we're going to have the same level of progress that we've had over the last several months where the finance committee does not come to a determination no one after seeing this with everybody in the chambers and everybody looking on TV can sit here and say I don't have the information that I need to vote okay no one up here can say that well perhaps that's it we needed the public to finally understand the situation before we the put pen and paper councilman rinsky um isn't a time we think about doing something with the firehouses in town and uh also balancing the budget minus how many millions that are owed to us from Fort Avenue that's something to also consider because we're all making up the difference from Fort Avenue not wrong okay a shame so we want to push this off till December 9th I appreciate it if I may okay my my comment from Joe and I the math guys right now the rate was set in it's set in June MH all right so when we go back tonight and our Quiet Moments of reflection to include here and out there in as they say in TV Land okay if we fail if we fail in December like we did a couple of months ago regardless of why you will not not have a new rate in place till one July correct because if you introduce in the new year that means those rates won't take place till the quarter after that which don't come into a phase for billing purposes till one July so that's just my my opinion on our rate structure so 9 December is a fine day to do this but understand that come 9:23 two days before Christmas okay we get to be either the Grinch or as Charlie Brown would say you get to be the hero of the goat that's a lot of pressure Council but I'm just saying got no issues with it but okay I don't think we're going to fail I think we have a cumulative understanding that should help us microphone I think we have a cumulative understanding we should be able to pull this out Rich you want to wrap up old business I I got a question for you rich if you take that 165 and multiply it out by the even for all the tiers by what the rate increase went up like it's almost like 11% would that help us out just adding the $150 no on the5 that's our that's our that's what people pay for water right right now yeah that's what we used to pay yeah so if you add multiply 16597 and multiply by 11% which is basically what the water went up you want increase at 11% 1.11 what I do you messed up your formula all right let's see what it says now and that actually does it with only having a tier at the 24,000 Mark and at the uh 5,400 Mark works for me I mean it went up 11% there's no doubt about it I mean 3 and half 3.4 you know it's still going to go 1% and it still give you 295 675 Surplus and I and I will say that just for the record we talked about at the last rate structure billing every individual unit in a multi-unit dwelling as if it had its own meter this does not account for that and some of these high 24,000 gallon and more users per are apartment buildings that have one meter servicing the entire structure mhm just little more information a little insight that you guys might not have been aware of no I'm aware that's that's where that goes I'm aware like across the street the mill for example is a prime example got 40 unit 45 units one meter wow yeah so when we consider taxing or increasing the rate on the higher usage just be aware that if that structure builds its residents individually or whatever form they do you're now furthering what it cost them to live in a one-bedroom apartment okay so just well down the road could you put like a demand meter in like we do with the electric could or water and these multi housing setting because replacing the cost is out of the question but put a demanded there after over you know a 3/4 in line or something and how much you're using you have to pay extra it's Council decision mhm something to think about it's a lot easier to replace it in meters any other old business everyone on Council got this right show a hands everybody has this now in their emails got it this morning that's cuz I put P zambron instead of f zamon but I wasn't going to say that I try not to say f Zam BR I try all right come on back up here so I'd like to uh close Old business is there any new business to bring to council I'd like to do a report else um going to do a DPW report no there's no reports tonight report tonight there's no reports tonight well I I I disagree with that because there's there's no transparency for the residents there's no report tonight because we wanted to get through the meeting it's almost 10:00 now so we well I recall you said there no reports I recall you said last week that we could do our reports during Council comments too I would like to open the public comment portion of our meeting to allow the public to bring to the council's attention their comments or concerns the council will respect the Public's Time by refraining from any comments until the speaker has finished it should be further noted that the public comment portion of our meeting is not structured as a question and answer session please state your name and address for the record when you come to the podium just a reminder that under the rules of council individuals wishing to speak during the public input part of the meeting shall be limited to a 5 minute and may after others speak have and finish may be allowed to speak a second 5 minute period Pasqual py scanda 11 Al Avenue we had a great fundraiser last week for the PBA I want to thank CME I want to thank Peter vinola here very nice checks it's much appreciated all the council people thanks for showing up it was a pleasure seeing all of you uh you guys are a big supporter much appreciated the two CH people that uh supported Neil and uh rich don't know if you're still the chair but I think that you are you might know I a lot of things in this town so but doesn't matter thank you both um I have a bon to with George Murray you know it's been a long time that I live cross street from you okay and 34 years of budism it's been it's been bad of what bullyism okay we need you to stop bullying people interesting that's right I am yet to defend myself from my accusation they have made about this fundraiser that I'm was stealing money I do fundrais to steal money you know what that's what's going on town we need to stop that I don't like your accusation because I didn't make the I didn't make the accusation so I I would just like you to I heard try carefully uh I heard it from good sources okay since you took office this time has been a disaster okay it's been nothing but a disaster we have 17 people resigned never INRI or the state of New Jersey this has ever happened why you took office to give your wife a raise go after 3 months you were in office secur your wi rais why is that because all these people knew and I told every one of them all these council members they were going to get along with you maybe for 6 months okay so 3 months later you give your wife a raise we need to stop bullying my friend Gary PR over you know what that ain't right they ain't right what we're doing here nobody gets WR with you we are in a danger to lose this town is it why we raising all these taxes is it why we're raising all these wood and store bills to protect ourselves from lawsuits do we have any lawsuits MRIs I don't answer questions for law okay so we probably have a lot of lawsuits that's why probably this is going on but nobody talks about it I am a resident I do have a plaza I pay time taxes I have a pizzeria big ton of water my Bild just doubled like everybody else you know what and I'm okay that's fine but lot the residents are here are suffering we raising all these raids to protect ourself this mediation is going on in this town because of you because you bully people and I all about it I will I will appreciate apprciate I will appreciate if the two CH people in this town will do a recall on you I will appreciate if the two County chair which I will talk to them after Thanksgiving and I know the Republican guy and I know the Democrat guy both good friends of mine to ever recall or for you to resign immediately this is we we going to go in to a situation where the state is going to own this town are probably are going to devaluate by 50% we don't know who's going to move into this town this is have better days okay so the two chair people ever heard this the County Chairs I will talk to after Thanksgiving and I'm talking I don't talk behind anybody's back I talk here in person where everybody's watching and everybody's listening you got to stop a bull you used to bully people in our neighborhood kids to go play in a dead end zone of the way we live kids you used to throw garbage can in front of kids you're 5 minutes it's crazy my five minutes up MH you your th is up again Bill Murray five Karina Drive uh a couple first of all I've been resident for 40 years first time ever here okay so this is this is important to me when I got my water bill last week what was this and I came down here and talked to Denise and he said oh there's a $100 $150 sech charge the rates went up fine we have to pay the bills just like I get a cell phone bill uh a cable bill Etc when there's an increase you're notified there was no notification um that we were getting this bill and also on the bill there was nothing there that says $150 search charge all right paid a bill but at least we should know that it's coming okay today I got four notifications about from Nexel of changing of the garbage days why don't we get a notification of the the water rates I know you guys been working on it for a long time I watched the meetings but all of a sudden there's the bill no notification so I know it cost money money maybe to mail it out but if you're in a business to run Electric Run the water we'd also get in our taxes that this is our new tax rate and we pay it quarterly no notific I repeated myself a couple of times so when the bill does get finalized the resident should get a notification of what it's going to be simple that's that's my first question uh now I'm just learning about you know shortage of water is there a list in town of who doesn't have a meter on on buildings that it um I give a good example like the the the uh public bathrooms is there a meter on those no no the buildings that we're aware of are all Municipal owned okay if that when we do this which is great whoever you whoever worked on that grant to get us the chains of meters is fabulous whoever got the grant thank Mike you know $2 million that's that's a lot of lot of change can all those properties have a meter put on so we know where the water goes why not it's not costing the town