##VIDEO ID:FJN6zmfk8SY## e e e e e e e e e e e evening and welcome to the 15th meeting of fiscal year 20 progress for the Milton planning board at this time I would like to Now call the meeting to order um if we would like to begin we can begin by introductions of the board and our staff if you'd like to start Sean F member Jim Davis member Cheryl Tas secretary mfield member and meredi Hall serving as chair um and with us this evening our staff we have um Cheyenne Cheyenne Frasier assistant director of planning and Community Development Julia Julia getman Clerk and unfortunately Tim's son um is ill and he's not able to be with us this evening but we just want to um publicly Express just our thanks to Tim for all of his work um on behalf of the town of mil and wish him the best um in his um in his new job so um thank you and uh now we can start with our administrative items approval of our minutes and we have a few sets here um we'll need to vote these uh separately since John um you weren't at the the couple you were absent for um so let's just go through these um individually so first we can start with um the approval of the minutes for October 10th if everyone has had a chance to review if I have a motion to approve I make a motion to approve the minutes from October 10th second second okay and we'll do uh all in favor SE yeah perfect okay next set of minutes um we have is from Wednesday October 23rd um has everyone had a chance to review those yep yep okay if I could have a motion to approve make a motion to approve the minutes for October 23rd a second second all in favor thank you um there was actually minutes from the 24th also um which was just our brief continual our public hearing um that we continued um Sean and Cheryl both of you you were both absent it was just a formality um meeting but um if I could have a motion to approve those a motion to approve the minutes of October 24th second great all in favor Iain thank you um and then we had um the last set and I don't know if everyone had a chance to review these um November uh 7th um we had a set of meeting minutes and we were all present so we can all vote um if I could have a motion to approve make a motion to approve the minutes for November 7th a second second all favor I I thank you those are approved Cheryl excuse me um just so you know I left the minutes there for you to sign on a clipboard I see them yeah where would you like me to leave them on the table um sure or on my desk okay thanks you're welcome okay so our next meeting dates we have scheduled um the next meeting would be our December 12th regularly scheduled meeting um we didn't finalize a a second meeting date in um December but I think if we could try to schedule one maybe the week before um when we typically would meet so that would be the 19th how is everybody's week that week and it could be another day too if that yeah I'm good didn't work I just didn't want to go into the following week where we're getting so close to the holidays that's okay are you in are you in town I will not be um here the 16th to the 23rd could you do the 19th 16th through 23 23r I'm sorry 16th through the 23rd okay yes um okay so morning the 12th do we do we need her just if we're running yeah the letting people in I don't know Julia are you able to um to run a meeting with um admitting folks for a Citizens speak or if we have someone come a applicant can the cable TV guys do it can is it Sean yeah could they do it we could probably have the matv people come and then I could do like practice sessions with Julia just so that she's more comfortable so they can tag team [Music] that okay all right then that I think would be fine just so we can um if we do have things you know um site plan approval Adu we could you know not miss another meeting on um discussions cool so tentatively let's schedule and we'll fi I'll finalize everything but uh so the 12th and the 19th will be the next meeting dates that's great um and Cheyenne was there anything that you wanted to add as far as um planning updates so we just have one update and it's going to be about our Adu that we're working on um we got work from the building department they're very interested in the work we're going to be doing so whenever we're ready they would love it if we could share the document with them so that they can provide additional comments great fantastic um okay so at this time um we now can um offer citizens speak if there's anyone from the public or on Zoom um if you'd like to raise your hand if you're um on the call but if you're in person please feel free to come or if there's something that's on our agenda you'll be able to speak at that time too so I like to speak when it comes up on the agenda yes yes when the item is on the agenda we'll welcome you to come and speak or you can speak now that's by the way okay good welcome good evening you just pull one of those mics closer to you yeah okay hopefully this works um so this will be quick um but um Matt morang 136 Elliot Street um and I just want to take a moment I wish he was here um but to thank Tim on the record um for the work that he's done for this town and for planning board and for the people interested in planning within Milton um I really think that Tim brought a uncommon level of professionalism um intelligence and with all that he went through also a good sense of humor in the whole process um and I enjoyed the time that I interacted with him and he's going to be sorely missed so I just wanted to get that out there and that's great thank I appreciate that yeah thank you nice okay um Cheyenne is there anyone um else are you seeing in citizen speak nobody AR another time okay great so we can now um move to new business business for our East Milton overlay zoning presentation on the draft design guidelines from MPC and if we can let uh Josh in the room yes he is on screen and he should be ready to go okay sh and I think I actually need to make me a um co-host or or no a panelist so I can actually share um let's see good evening everyone good evening heyh welcome there's not an option to make you a panel okay oh I see someone there great great thanks thank you hello every good to see you all hello Josh good to see you too all right so uh just as a refresher um we had uh provided the board draft zoning language for East Milton Square based upon the process that we've gone through um over the last probably more than a year and a half now and then we had extended the contract through the end of this month to give us additional space to provide uh design guidelines for the district that would compl that zoning we' provided that as well uh and I can walk through that document I don't have a companion presentation I thought it would actually be more effective if we did want to uh just scroll through the deliverable itself and take a look at that together uh additionally and a last minute addition I apologize for that but I sent along to Cheyenne yesterday um the uh in in another deliverable which is a commentary memo which provides uh background uh some additional narrative about the zone recommendations themselves and uh just outlined some future considerations that we've talked about in this process but we just want to make sure we're memorialized in some way so provided that to the town as well that's great Josh yeah I think that if you want to walk through um the presentation that um is on our website and that you have put forth for the design guidelines um that would be great I did talk to Tim I think we'll want to also have a future meeting um in the near future just to discuss the actual zoning language because I we haven't really had a chance to walk through that yet but we I also wanted to make sure that members had a chance to review the zoning language separately but for tonight I think um it's great the presentation looks wonderful so if you want to walk us through that sure excellent and you and I think uh reviewing the uh proposed zoning language in tandem with that commentary memo might actually be helpful as well for the board great I will share uh the design guidelines document now actually I'm sending a share request it looks like I have to send a share request and then maybe someone can grant that for me all set all right thank you great so hopefully you can all see that now on the screen make that full screen for you all right so this is the East Milton Square design guideline document it is modeled closely um on the uh Milton Village design guideline document I know that you all went through the planning board uh went through a substantial process to uh put those together and I know that the uh all the details that are captured in those design guidelines were were put there purposefully and with a lot of thought so we did model this very closely on those design guidelines both in its structure of its content but also in the details of the guidelines themselves of course uh focusing on the information and guidance that is most relevant uh only relevant to East Milton Square um there was uh for example a fair amount of guideline uh language in the Milton Village guidance around the change in topography on sites uh and that is not as applicable to the East Milton Square area so the the outline of the document we begin with an introduction it's connect ction to the zoning itself uh the intent behind the guidelines how they're organized a bit about the process that uh led to this point beyond our our process and uh inclusive of for example the looking forward uh East Milton Square uh study and then ties to directly to the design standard language which is embedded in the zoning language so there's a direct connection and uh some uh you know I think a good leveling of uh require requirements for the board to use and review of projects where you have designed standards which are um required as a part of the zoning and that gives you the ability to really um I think work in close partnership and have a have a strong voice in that review process on a in a site plan review uh with the proponents and then these design guidelines are um not required in the same way as design standards but do offer a lot more detail about what's intended and that how the outcome could be guided to the the best benefit of East Milton Square there's a little bit of history and context around East Milton Square just to give people uh proponents particularly the benefit of that knowledge uh a little bit of discussion around architectural Styles as there was in the Milton Village design guidelines and then bringing forward some of the principles and vision language which was uh I think very carefully outlined in the looking forward study so embedding that in this document as well then the design guidelines are organized in the the same topics as the Milton Village design guidelines were uh building design public realm vehicular access Landscaping lighting signage and sustainability uh and I think uh pretty comprehensive uh set of guidelines which is what the feedback was that we heard through this process that the community is interested in having a comprehensive set of guidelines I won't go through the front end with too much uh you know belabor it too much beyond what I've already described but you can see some of that language in this uh connecting it to the zoning connecting it to the design standards and then this just flipping through the history and the context which I think is you know fascinating Milton Square has a lot to be proud of and a strong connection to uh industry and uh the railway of course um architectural Styles highlight some of the significant buildings and have a overall um plan diagram of the district on the page focus in on some of those key proper properties and their key features much in the same way that this was done if you look if you flipped sort of opened up the Milton Village guidelines and had them side by side you would recognize the layout and character of of these uh sort of identifying Key properties and their architectural Styles and features and this is where we bring forward the looking forward study uh in the work that went there and making sure that it's not just a document sitting on a shelf but really does help form and inform uh future projects East molon square and is a part of the vision going forward and then the guidelines themselves we uh you know have both language uh and just in terms of the structure that you see on this page so there's uh the first sort of topic as you saw in the content this would be the building design guidelines and then each of the um different topic areas like for example citing of the building structures themselves and then a a fair amount of guidance on each of the topics ICS we include in the blue call out boxes the actual zoning design standard language so that's what's from the proposed zoning bylaw language uh and the direct connection between those standards and these guidelines is apparent in the both the topics and uh the way that it's described in more detail here and then we also have both photographic and diagrammatic uh illustrations of some of the ideas that are talked about much in the same way as the Milton Village uh work was put together great um just moving along I'll just flip through these I don't think we need to of course if there's some topic that you'd like to zero in on you can all let me know we're only still seeing the cover page of the report are you oh no sorry sorry we're not seeing the next slides let me see I I flipped through a few now okay so that's great so that that's helpful let me just go back um now is it flipping yes uh my apologies thank you for letting me know all right so this this was the content I described verbally and that the outline just flipping back through so you can see it this is where uh the language is that ties it back to uh the zoning the brief history and context for East Milton Square that's the diagrammatic plan that I mentioned with some of the key uh properties highlighted and then this is what I was describing as laid out in much the same fashion as the Milton Village uh design guidelines are with key structures their features and Architectural character and uh historical uh sort of uh relevance as well these are the connections to the looking forward study and bringing that into this document so it can have a direct application to uh the uh continuing visioning and sort of delivery of that Vision through future uh Redevelopment projects then this is the beginning of the guidelines themselves as I noted the blue call out boxes referencing the zoning language the photographic and diagrammatic uh illustrations to help uh add flavor and uh some character to the language and you know I think add some direction to the language as well and then you can see uh this moves uh within building design with have a fair amount of topics for example sighting of structures architectural context building form height scale and massing and then each of those have additional language we've tried to number them and make sense of of this document for example so that if you're in the process of review you could both reference a page number page 14 you could also reference say section four roofs and uh item two within roofs which is about pitched roofs As you move through this document with a proponent to say you know could you describe for us the the slope on that pitched roof and how it relates to this guideline facades as well you can see both IM the imagery is um I would say in some cases uh highlighting the type of uh outcome that's desired and in other cases highlighting the existing context and how that context should be shaping a future project as well and we we've tried to be very selective about the images that we've chosen that we think reflect the the character in sty style and vision that we've heard through the discussion with the community really trying to focus on that Village character that is is so desired and uh responsive to the sort of historic New England character that East Milton Square has today so just now getting through uh the building guidelines and shifting to the public realm which is an important feature of this uh of course public realm being that portion of the the sidewalk uh between the building front and the the curb also inclusive of some of the character along the street Edge as well both with on street parking and potential for some additional smaller Open Spaces or parklets you can see some of those ideas in the photographs on this page and how landscape might relate to uh adding amenity to the public real as well think practical items uh such as bicycle parking integrated with other util utilitarian functions in the public realm and then how it relates to vehicular access as well reducing the impact of parking think about Landscaping some of the guidelines around plant materials uh streetscape buffers to Residential Properties that was big idea about um that fine line in in this tight and compact uh mixed use in commercial District the business district of East M square and it's a very nearby residential abutters some of the lighting focusing on uh lighting of the buildings lighting of the signs some sight lighting as well and these are supplementary to the overall uh signage requirements that are in the existing bylaw some on stormm water management and sustainability and that is the design guidelines document and we think it it provides the the planning board with a robust tool to uh really you know if of course you have to review the zoning uh in more detail uh but the idea there is that the the zoning proposals that we put forward are um to have the review occur at the site plan review level not at special permit level and therefore the design guidelines are an important feature of that so that the expectations the board can be aligned with those of a uh developer who might bring forward and some investment proposals that's great well I was very pleased to to read this and and to look through it I think you're you really captur the essence of what we were what we were hearing at the forums and and what um sort of the vision that we wanted um for that area to to have um any questions from the the board on the design guidelines I just have a couple general questions um Josh um you mentioned that these are pattern on the guidelines in Milton Village which we don't have any experience with yet because of we haven't had an application come in under that overlay zoning so um have you develop guidelines like these or have you seen guidelines like these that have been implemented in other communities and you know have you heard any feedback about how well that goes or if there's um just you know some background as to the um the extent of the guidelines and other people's experiences with something similar yeah I think the the feedback I've heard is that they are are um a a useful they so yes the I think the the short answer is yes we have produced similar guidelines both in terms of the um depth and detail and sort of the the I guess character of the guidelines themselves in terms of the use of the text diagrams and photographs um I think they the feedback we've heard is that they are useful um as level setting with the development team to give them as they begin you know even really the pre-development work before maybe you you might even know about a project as a board that they will pick up this type of document and I think uh in most cases be try to be responsive to what the town would like to see because of course that makes that their process go smoother if they can show that responsiveness um and then I think in the actual review of the uh project itself it it depends a lot on um sort of the going back to the zoning itself and the scale Financial feasibility and um I think often times there are I would say uh more critical Dynamics at play that might drive some of the decision-making both on the development side of things but also on the planning board's side of review I think when you get to those um big picture ideas about sort of what will make a break make or break a project it's maybe not at this design guideline level but then once you kind of get those major potential um issues ironed out in in the review with the with the project proponent then I think it's then it's at that point that you do return to the design guidelines and talk about you know how this element or architectural feature or how it relates to the sidewalk how that could be a little different and what we've heard is the guidelines actually give the town the ability to um make that conversation happen in a way that you're not it doesn't feel like you're just inventing things out of nowhere but that you can point to this document and say well this this is in here and we'd like to see this type of approach and do you think it gives enough flexibility for project applicants and their design teams or do you think it's more like a set of instructions that tells them this is how they have to design a project no I think they will um they will assert that flexibility is what we've experienced and so um because they are guidelines they are advisory I think it's good to have them be as I I think this level of detail is not a bad thing they they will let you know the proponent team will let you know if there's something that they uh can't comply with or can't accomplish uh we did um I think in the zoning language itself the draft zoning language we did uh as a part of the site plan review process requirements uh ask for a narrative describing how the project relates to these guidelines and the design standards um and I think that narrative would be helpful to zero in on those places where they might uh be seeking that type of flexibility but it's not I don't think um I think it's more about the the zoning requirements in terms of uh it's an impact on feasibility it's not necessarily about these guidelines and I think that therefore the the detail is a good thing because it gives you more of those entries into uh asking for what you want what you want to see the reason I asked U also is you know that Milton Village is special permit only it's not site plan approval which is um different procedurally which we've been talking a lot about uh the site plan approval process so um because what we've heard U about site plan approval and guidelines for uses that are as of right is that um you can't make the guidelines so um either vague number one or such that a project becomes infeasible so I just want to I'm just kind of try to prod on this just to make sure we don't go kind of too far on it and get rejected maybe at the Attorney General level but or at some other level on it could I could I um jump into this because I think I I think um you know when I read through this Josh uh the The Chosen word that you used is should you know should exists as a common um as a common word throughout the document I I don't think I saw must anywhere so I mean should I think gives the board the flexibility to either accept you know what an applicant shall yeah shall right exactly and and I um I guess to continue with the question that charl was asking um that seems to me to give the board the flexibility to you know to go either way you know I think there's one piece that I saw in there that a facade you know should never have a blank wall that's more than 10 ft by 12 ft do you know what I mean but but you know uh that doesn't mean that you can't but it it kind of It kind of suggests that you know that's not what you want but you know I'm hopeful that the the use of the word should creates flexibility both for the board and for someone who has you know an intention to do something yes so the question really that I was getting at is if like say the board says at times this has happened you know we really want brick on that building and the guideline and the developer says well your guidelines you know allow us to use various materials and let's say like that's something like that is used for a grounds of denial sure where it's supposed to be um as of right you know I just I just want to we want enough protections that give us the teeth that we've all talked about kneading a little bit but I I I do become a little concerned about going a little too far with it on on something that's not discretionary you know because this is not the site plan approval process is not so that's why I was just asking if there's other towns that have done it successfully it' be great to hear about it it' be great to see their guidelines um uh just to feel that to get at that sense of comfort that this is a level which has been successful Elsewhere on a as of right kind of proposal so so I guess a question cuz I understand what you're saying you know I know the situation we don't want to be in right do do you think that there might be some particular sections of language that should should uh should might be better if it's replaced with shell you know some things that are just so important that you don't want to be in that situation well I think that's where the zoning you know needs to be the Sha we talked about this in Milton Village too the zoning needs to be the Sha and the guidelines need to be the the should or desired it it's up it's really incumbent upon the board members to not use the guidelines as a tool for denial you know in in my view it's a guideline to negotiate the kind of design that is people have expressed you know as the desire and you know someone might read it as saying well it's so prescriptive that I have to copy an existing historic building um so they come in with that because that's what they see here you know um whereas they can they can also do a successful design that picks up on the characteristics of the historic building but not duplicate them so when we have something that gives them so much information I think let's just say that I as a person who might be designing a building in a community I see something like this I I want to like really pretty well understand if this is being dictated you know so that before I start designing that building so I I think it's about um setting an expectation that um we want to see applications and we want to see thoughtful design but we're not necessarily asking for something that's going to push the costs out of line such that we don't yet see any applications right so there's a a a balance and I'm just asking Josh and his professional opinion have we hit the right balance here and just because I'm a little concerned that we might not have I'm not saying we haven't but I'm I just want to see what the experience has been elsewhere too mhm um you know it's it's I think it's disappointing that we haven't seen an application thus far in Milton Village after all the effort that went into that and I'd hate to kind of say find that what we're doing is like causing any concern for an applicant in some of this work so that's all well the good thing is we know that there are projects coming in the Milton Village they're just for various reasons um having to do some pre-work before they come to us well you're you're an architect and have been one for a long time and very successful and you must redesign guidelines often do you do you find what's what's what we have here to be restrictive to you I'd like to re read it you know and we got the general overview here and I'd like to take another look at it um but so my my first reaction uh was yes it's it's very similar to Milton Village and I see Milton Village architecture differently than I see um East Milton because you have um you know the the character of the of the build buildings in Milton Village you know is pretty recognizable as having a lot of historic character um I personally don't view some of the buildings in East Milton Square the same way and I know that's can be a judgment value I'm not judging anyone else's opinion on that so I do think there's more opportunity for Flex flexibility in East Milton you know in terms of how it develops you've got the you got the highway cutting right through it you've got just a considerations that you don't have Milton Village you don't have a what is it eight or 10 Lane highway kind of the face of one street or two streets you know so it does um you know there's a lot of talk about it being a village but it's a village that's cut off by a really big Highway yeah and that sets up different kinds of design consider ation I think um which maybe don't contemplate and I'm not you know and I I I understand the differences architecturally between you know the two locations I'm I'm asking more about rigidity flexibility regardless of the different architectural you know what I mean because I think really what you're saying is you you don't want to deter anyone from a development you know plan if your design guideline doesn't allow them the flexibility that right that's that's what I'm asking I'm not talking about differences I don't really care much about the difference in the architecture I just mean for someone who has this challenge often you know um because I think at the end of the day we want that we we want to encourage Somebody To You know to um to develop and we don't want a document that discourages them from development because they feel like they can't come before the board and succeed right so the the um so that comes back to really how the board intends to use them and it's not just this but boards in the future right right so um I so generally speaking I mean there's there's um it covers everything i' I'd like to go through and see and just give it another look through and see and see whether um to to answer your question whether I think it's too rigid yeah but that's why that's why I asked Josh if he can tell us like whatever Community need them Lexington it doesn't matter to me which has something similar here's some of the buildings that have come in and been approved under that zoning just to give us an idea because if you I think some people have said other communities have some some nice new development how did that get done was it under something similar to this that's just I'm yeah kind of curious about it's a great question and that may be a question that comes up at a public forum too that would we but we also I mean during the zoning process there's a there's an opportunity for the pre application meeting right and we could reiterate Cheryl's message at that point she said we've got these great guidelines but you don't have to stick to these depending on the parcel that they're trying to redevelop I think this is great I love what Josh did yeah I do too I think it's very detailed it hits a lot of different things and I wouldn't be expecting to see every single architectural feature on every building so the goal is to make it easier for developers to have an idea that they don't spend money because we've often we've seen it you know the The Gardener school for example they they go to Great expense with architectural designs or plans which might not be at all you know something that we would be looking for and this by having that pre meeting they get a sense of what we're looking for so that they can design to that and sort of create I think our our goal is to create um and the concern with these milon is we have these historic buildings but then we have these non-historic buildings that I think should be torn down and and redeveloped but we want to have we want to encourage a a cohesive neighborhood in East Milton and we don't we can't change that there's a highway there but we can change sort of a cohesive giv context to that area and I think this this is the you know the goal to get there with new construction and new buildings to to replace some of the buildings that don't connect to the rest of the Town well I think maybe an example for for us is to look back at 440 you know had this been in place before 440 you know it it it probably would have been a better process for everybody you know for the developer for the board and and for the community so it it should it should be very helpful in the future well this these guidelines or maybe it was a zoning itself I read both um today um basically require the renovation or the the retention of buildings 1940 or before regardless in some depending upon where it's written regardless of their historic character so the question is does does that automatically to prevent a 440 granded app right because there were several buildings that are probably built before 1940 so are we looking to put zoning in place that allows for redevelopment or stops Redevelopment is you know because you can uh you can write zoning that stops development which is basically what we have now the parking requirements that we have in our current business district zoning prevent any Redevelopment because you can't park it so you can't build it so I'd hate to have us have spent all these years working on something that kind of puts us back in that same spot um so I I think we should I one of the things I've flagged for myself is to go back and look at which buildings are 1940 and earlier and that's one of the things actually I wanted to ask you about Josh because the number of buildings that's in one of these documents um has it up to 1950 it doesn't have a cut off at 1940 so I don't know how many buildings are actually 19 cut off at 1940 I think it's in your memorandum let me just see Josh did you want to run through that your memorandum was that something you wanted to do this evening sure on the just on the ch's most recent question on the date so that is in the zoning language and it's 1940 zoning language and it's not necessarily that it has to be retained I don't think that's the intention it's more more that that would trigger a additional referral to Milton historical commission and consideration of the historical or architectural significance of those structures so it's just I think an extra layer of review and if if those if that additional layer review found that the structure was not significant then uh I think you know it it wouldn't be important to the zoning that it be retained that's how I read it also reading that yeah so there was I don't see it in the memo but like the percent of buildings that were built up 1940 wasn't a cut off so it was like we don't know how many are the 1940 but what what year was the Santander Bank I I don't know or I think they had that in one of their they had the dates in one of the diagrams before um yeah the significance of 1940 was really that it captured um the Adams Building on granite Avenue um the post office um the art center and the um EDG Hill Road uh Early Learning Center so those were it it does not for example capture the Milton Fire Department which is 195 52 um but those of the uh featured historical structures in the design guidelines four out of the five are pre 1940 so and I don't know if this is a a good time to go back and look at the the map um the map that we have you know the boundary map um Josh maybe that's something I cuz I had expressed concern I don't know how the other members feel I think the the post office which is on the National Historic register I think I would like to have that taken out of the map and I'm also thinking the Milton Art Center if we the the projects that we don't want to see like to Cheryl's redeveloped um right as mixed as mixed use I'm not saying not redeveloped but I'm saying as a mixed use that post office you don't have the space to really do it and I would be afraid it would be torn down and somebody would try to redevelop that site or make it housing and then it would lose the public would lose the ability to appreciate it cuz I love that um that post off the post office and I love the the East Milton Library you know I still call it that even though it's the art center and um the Milton Art Center is just such a to our town I would hate to know I would hate to have a developer want to come in housing that's a nice lot the whole backyard is grass I me I've seen tent set up there in the summer the kids are doing and I feel like if we ever had a project we could look at it and we could approve something with a special permit or we could add it to the we could add it to the district later if we felt like we needed to but I felt like that might be risky for structures that we don't want to to potentially lose what structures do you think are realistically redevelop on this map the fruit Center the fruit the gas stations the fruit Center I I I know I like having a gas station in town but I don't know that we need three I would love to um if you look at the map here Citizens Bank building so yeah I was going to ask about the Citizens Bank what year was that cuz they've recently painted it that looks new that looks like 80s I'm guing I feel like it's lost his charm but to Josh's point it does say you know historical significance as deemed by the historical society and I doubt they would look at commission okay I look doubt they'd look at the Citizens Bank and say oh that's got some historical significance I'm sure that' say do you want over there and the example with that was the the there was the structures that were on 440 Granite those came before the historical commission and those were not considered historically significant even though some of them had the dates of being very old they had been altered so significant so dramatically that they they didn't retain any historical value I think individually there aren't many Cheryl in my opinion it it just requires consolidation you know probably to to make something more developable I mean if you go back to your question about 440 granded AV I mean I do think the citizens kios which is mostly a parking lot is probably a candidate um Big Lot yeah and then obviously the fruit Center is the largest parcel but you know unless that kind of use doesn't succeed any longer um you know that I see that as less likely to to change um so I don't you know I don't really see especially given the restrictions that are put on the zoning in terms of three stories and having a lot of parking that were really setting this up for very many to to be redone at all you know I I think the um the the reality of it is that the development opportunities are better on the post office side of East Milton than on the you know call it the real business district of East Milton I think the lots and and um you know are larger and um and I understand what you're saying about the post office I think it's a beautiful building too but um you know from a development opportunity the art center has a piece of land that could be developed and probably be a really nice project but it's hard to Envision anything over on the other side of town you know in around you know um uh Adam Street it's just so difficult you know the they're so small and it would take a significant amount and and I wouldn't want to see the fire station demolished but the structures that are to the right those and I'm looking at I think the those houses behind it the houses behind it that are those are not his you know I would not find them to be architecturally significant and um 400 408 410 I think those each individual is small but if you assemble those yeah um were assembled I can see you know I just just a thought and I don't know what the future of our postal service is but um it it's it's always a possibility that the post office will not operate as a post office for a long period of time I mean postal is probably you know most locations aren't nearly the size of that building especially for a community like ours it's much smaller but you know I would hate to see it to be a building that's shuttered and abandoned and because it this becomes so restrictive nothing happens to it you know what I mean if it doesn't operate as a post office so well I think I mean to Maggie's Point commercial would be beneficial but residential potentially in the future um but I think the mixed use if you take if you take it out then you're not going to be residential you mean like one house this time no I mean it could be you know it could be you wouldn't be able to do it though under zoning well I'm thinking of Second Story on the back where it's flat where they do all their mail sorting still can't do it if you don't include in this Sony though yeah right so that's zoned commercial that is zoned commercial yeah currently I think it's in the business district yeah that's the I think it's something that we just shouldn't rush to do but I mean it's the board can can decide to include it but I I feel it later to your point the post office may not be always it may not always be operating as a post office I just would like to have control a little bit more um control of the future of it I I don't listen I I'm with you architecturally it might be one of the the national register one of the most beautiful buildings in Milton architecturally I think I'm a builder though you're an architect but it's beautiful well and you know I I that it has that history of the mural in in the inter ior which you know is valuable I just think that um I I agree with Sean to have some concern about having so so many restrictions that if the post office did close down you know what could it be used for in the future and what you know one of the things that we've talked about when you um if it's high hurdle for somebody to come in and do what a 440 granded AV developer did or what the 40b developers do there's a lot of um and there's a lot of more expense associated with it so you might make something more likely to happen if the path is clear to somebody when they're looking at a piece of property so it's not to say that somebody wouldn't want to come later and do condos but maybe because of the path that they have to take to get there they want to do more because they're building in a process that's going to take them two years and maybe some lawsuits you know to get it done versus something where they that's the beauty of a site plan approval is that's a process that they're going they see the end game and having the guidelines helps guide them to get to that end game there's no doubt about it I I agree that we should have the guidelines 100% the the I I just want to make sure that we're not over you know kind of going a little too far with them but back to that kind of idea of that parcel is you know if we um if we don't include it and it's just a business use that's allowed in there I mean what kind of business use and what kind of protections are in our current business zoning not very much you know there's very little protection there's nothing about preserving the historic character of the building if somebody wants to put a business use in there there's far more protections than this with all these guidelines and so forth so will we go back and change the business zoning you know to accommodate to or to account for the fact that we have historic buildings that we excluded is something to think about um so you know one of the things too even with the um we haven't talked about with this zoning that I've been thinking about as we think about the fruit Center you know application is you know this is recommended to be included in this overlay but no change in the underlying zoning so it still sits in that residential and is that the best thing should we look at making the map consistent between this and the business district um so that you don't have two different kind of processes depending or even boundaries you know kind of depending upon which path someone takes so those are just a few of my thoughts about so so to your point that it has been a struggle like the fruit Center it has been a struggle um but we've also heard recently just all the concerns the neighbors have so would we be um negating their concerns by putting it 100% in the commercial District because then they'll be able to kind of do whatever they want they would have been able to put a bar in sort of as of right you know so that's my concern like in M might not have had that concerned a a few months ago but because of the application of the the bar um now it has brought been brought to light that do if we you know put that in the commercial is it okay to do a bar and the other thing even our commercial District you know I asked Tim what are our hours of operation you know in our commercial district and it doesn't matter what um business type it is but if you wanted to be you know a Stella's restaurant and you want to open up at 5:00 a.m. to cater to like you know plumbers or whatever are can they do that as a right and I recall the Duncan Donuts had to go and get special permission to open I think at 4:30 maybe a.m. to make their donuts or five and I was a little surprised at that because it's our commercial District so I would have thought that they would have been able to have a longer business use so I'm not like I don't know what our Act ual business hours are in our business district Tim did you get back to you yeah you said there aren't any there aren't any so I was a little um surprised and I understand in the residential you know you have different business uses um so that was just a basic question what hours can you operate so in a situation like that at the fruit Center does that mean they can start taking deliveries at 5: in the morning they operate under special permits there the I don't think Duncan operates under special permits I know but if we go ahead and implement the zoning now the fruit Center is in the commercial District so can they do whatever they want not whatever they want CVS gets deliveries late night yeah and I think and then the food center they try to keep their loading dock closed off but I think the trucks sometimes will come and with this zoning they won't have to right right well this zoning is this is mixed use overlay zoning well they have setback requirements that they don't have with the current building you know like they would this building is is pretty close to the property line and I think depending upon what you consider I guess Bass Street might be considered the front yard in which case that would be a sidey yard um and I don't recall what the side yard was listed as here but if it's adjacent to a residential I think it's at least 10 ft but uh well I'm sorry so what does that mean if they don't have 10t they can operate as a commercial they get kicked out of the commercial District understand this is not the commercial right this is the mixed use overl Mi over so if if obviously they're pre-existing non-conforming so as long as they continue with their current kind of business uses and their special permits then they continue in regardless of any change to the zoning but if they wanted to file for an application under this new overlay and they were going to tear this building down and build something new then they would have to conform to this zoning which would require a greater setback so in just in terms of like some of the conditions I'm thinking the conditions that are on the property right now like the delivery schedule you mean so like if the fruit Center stayed and they built Apartments there or condos built anything they just kept it the way it is but all of a sudden there's now mixed use overlay zoning did their conditions go away nothing changes the zoning is just an opportunity another layer right just another layer so only if they wanted to change what they were doing on their property would any of this apply they would and somebody could apply under the business zoning even if this is sitting there so an overlay means the underlying is staying Y and the over and this is another opportunity for the property owner but as if I'm sorry Maggie if it's by right they still have to apply for the new Zing now this is like if we're talking no they don't have is this by right what we're trying to pass now is going to be by right as an option only an option option by right so if they choose the option they choose the option yes get the classification if they don't need to change anything if they continue their operation right but if they did decide they wanted to take advantage of something under this zoning they would have to add housing right so they have to add housing if they they're part that I was missing that's was my concern with the post office okay got it it has to be it has to be a mixed use purpose which is nearly impossible in within the structure as it exists right now it would have to be where you're talking about where the trucks are in the back yeah that second floor is right for I'm sorry that roof that we walked on is right only three floors they go up they'd go three floors cuz right now yeah so currently it's two floors so if they take advantage they can do apartments on the third floor cent of the first floor and this has to be commercial anyway so you could keep that nice Lobby space commercial little cafe and then you could do something else with the rest as a mixed use gotcha so I think that gives more opportunity for it to be preserved I think I've said this before than just limiting it to the underlying business it's not that you're somebody couldn't still do it as a business and you know with the um you know the opport the opportunity that they would have to come in and work back and forth with 50% of it needing to be business they wouldn't be able to do it otherwise so where would you put the business it would make sense to put it in that ground floor where the um public portions of the building are I think the rest of that probably first floor is not very attractive from what I see from the lobby so the other area that I do see the the potential for redevelopment because um I think there is I think there's more than than and it's not everything for you know certainly but I don't think the East milon the residents who came out at the Forum did not want to see the entire square redeveloped that was clear they didn't want dramatic change that's why the height was important um certain things but if you start at the re where um rebuilt fitnesses from that building all of those buildings if you when you drive by if you look at where the pediatric office is I don't know if it's a dental office too in there but there's some really small very dated not historic buildings that run along Adam Street between the rebuilt Fitness up to 440 granite and I think that's a potential area um all of those buildings I think could could be redeveloped and and would make um have really nice office space on the you know commercial on the first floor and residential above that's where I I see just the need all along that area of Granite Avenue is is prime for that to be redeveloped without without redeveloping the historic older buildings so I think the real way to get more development is to unfortunately add a few more Lots like 23 mechanic I know it's the conversation is Way Beyond this but 23 mechanic in the lot to the north of it and then you give the opp developer the opportunity to buy and assemble more little Lots which we um I know I I understand that however we've heard from the neighbors they do not want to expand the boundary so I don't think that as of right now that that should sort of be part of the discussion um yeah know I just think if I live there and I was surrounded by commercial space and didn't have the opportunity to capitalize on it' be a shame but but then the problem is then that person would capitalize on it and then the next person across the street will and then the next one will because the street act acts like a buffer kind of the street is a nice break Mechanic Street would be a nice break so I think we can put a pin in this but I mean I think we will just need to sort of um because we sort of moved on when we left off with the sort of the mapping and never finalize those and I you I would like to um to go through the zoning at another meeting if we can get Josh to come back because um I think there were a cou a couple things I just thought that I'd like to talk about that I've highlighted here but I I I really appreciate the memorandum um with the explanations commentary is great yeah and I I the I and I and I also really appreciate the the last section of it so for potential future and just noting the things that we've talked about that you know some of what I've raised tonight about whether we're going to see some Redevelopment because whether you know this these restrictions or however you want to call it you know are are a little bit too limiting so I appreciate that you've documented all of that because it's it was a lot of the discussion and you know it'll be in the record going down the um down the road um and even as we get to places like town meeting if this is brought I wanted to ask what the board's thought as about bringing this to town meeting and then um Josh I think also in Milton Village um you may have done a buildout analysis to see how much square footage and how many units might result from this zoning um and then we use that to kind of determine what an estimate of potential new Revenue might be tax revenue might be um do you have you given any thought to what that whether that makes sense here and what that might take from your end in terms of a a scope and a fee and to follow up on that sorry if we're going to do an analysis on tax revenue would we do an analysis on the amount of expected cars that would come to the neighborhood and or um how much more the traffic would be increased by by adding more um housing units sorry Josh go ahead you were just you w to yeah no I think both like you could yes you could do a buildout analysis of the zoning um and that could be used to both uh estimate Financial um sort of outcomes relative to the town tax base and uh also used to plug into some of the town uh traffic analysis and uh future planning there so it's I think it's it's potentially useful I would say um You probably um not to uh belabor 3A but I feel like the experience we've had through 3A is that when we assign a potential buildout capacity to zoning that it's not always productive or helpful um and that often times as we I think as we're all experiencing through that process it is significantly overestimating what will probably actually occur in reality uh so I think that's the that's the downside potentially is that a number of potential units would be uh identified whether or not that number is actually um realized in uh built form I think is a is another question of course we uh when we do those built out buildout analyses we don't assume that every parcel is going to be redeveloped that's um often we do a pretty straightforward analysis comparing the current improvements on the land the buildings out buildings site improvements Etc to the uh value of the land itself as a measure of which properties are more or less likely to have Redevelopment pressure um and that is you know not I would say generally when you do that look and I think we probably have done that already and e s I just don't have it in front of me it's less than half of the properties kind of fall in the category of having the land be more valuable than the improvements themselves which which to us indicates uh that there might be potential for redevelopment there um so all that's a long way of saying yes it's all possible it could potentially be useful but just caution that there are potentially some downsides to it as well great so um you know there's a lot of talk in U of late about it potential for an operational override and you know some people think that um new development and Commercial tax revenue is one way to help with that and so um I'm just anticipating we might get a question about that um as we go forward you know whether especially if we do the economic as we do the economic development plan uh is there potential for New Growth is there potential for new Revenue coming out of this zoning so um I mean I guess you could say yes if you don't go through the analysis I get I get your point um Josh completely about the the buildout analysis it requires to take a lot of assumptions on which Parcels could get developed and what the program might be for those parcels but if we're making it more attractive and easier I think the likelihood is greater that they will be redeveloped yeah so the question for then for Josh would be we would have to maybe give him some suggested ones to test out um I think in Milton Village you you did um a handful I think pretty pretty much along um Adam Street I don't think he did any up on High Street but um they they seem ripe like the citizens kiosk in Milton Village like the citizens kiosk in East Milton I mean you you'd be able to kind of test that out um so I think that's yeah something we could talk about yeah I don't I'm not necessarily suggesting that that's what we should do but I think we should be prepared about what the questions might U be and might come if we continue to move forward with it and I would think the fire department building might be you know one of the first ones since the town has already issued a um a request for interest yeah um you know and and I think that could be the Cornerstone um of the whole Square um you know I am concerned a little bit of some you know I asked about the Santander Bank because I tuned into the um uh sign review um um committee meeting and I was a little concerned about some of the the the materials that they were using I mean it's not the most attractive building to begin with but I think they were um and I forget my material the name of the material it was a more modern looking material and um they had said that that bank was not in the railway Historic Railway Village but the neighbors were um you know considerate part of the Railway Village Village so they were a little you know put off a little bit that it wasn't being recognized as that so even though some of the buildings are not historically significant I think the residents of East Milton have a vision for the square um that has a little bit more of a nod to um you know a historic village they don't want to be overlooked and all of a sudden become like a mini sea port area so that's a good segue to actually Cheyenne are you seeing any hands up anyone on Zoom who would like to yes speak to this we have one person called Ione I'm going to promote them great that's I it's um it's Joe Caren from Grafton ad how are you guys tonight good Jo so just just a couple of things in in listening to this and and again there was a lot said so just bear with me if if you don't mind I I want to make sure that we are going to have some more Community meetings before we go to town meeting and and I would think the community meetings would come first and the town meeting would come second I don't know how that works with your milestones and your schedule but I just wanted to say that and then um you know when we talk about the historic architecture of the buildings um while you guys were were talking I did a I went on to the GIS mapping software for the town and I'll just say and I'll try to make this quick but Novara Stell Citizens Bank Santan Duncan D Hollow the former decorating Den um the travel office that's now a dentist office um are all pre9 40 they were all built it looks like after 1950 uh with the exception of 400 gr a which was the which is I think a law firm and I think at one time it was Fred the hair stylist so there's a lot of buildings that are developable in that in that district and I'll let you guys do the research and verify what I'm saying and then when we talk about historic buildings there are a lot of historic buildings there um thankfully we don't have any brutalist style buildings um but you know I do consider the post office and the former Baptist Church and the library and the juen law firm building all to be pretty historic and they're not as old as Lower Mills but again as I've said in in the meetings I've been to the East Milton District is much different than Lower Mills right lower Mills is a transformed industrial district and East Milton I don't think was really ever I guess the trains cuz they put Granite through there or whatever it was kind of but it was a different kind of manufacturing years so um and then you know we have pocket parks there now which I I know we talk about all the time when I've listened to all these meetings you know you may not like the location of the of the deck Park but it's utilized they they use it for lots of things and as you said the the library area although it's you know they it is a green space and they do use it in that way um and then I know you were asking about the materials on the Santander banket I also went to the same meeting um and it was ACM and it's a and and Cheryl I'm sure is familiar with this or of the members I should say it's aluminum clading materials and that's a pretty standard practice in the santand a kind of stuff so that's basically all I wanted to say I I do feel there's a lot of buildings that can be redeveloped and I think you've done a good job preserving the ones that are there could you please get your address for the record yeah it's graft and a what number thank you yeah what uh do I have to give the number I'd prefer not to but it's number 30 won't thank you I'm sorry number 30 grafting I didn't quite understand the material that you when you said the material for the sand Tander and you said that I should I might be familiar with it yeah I'm sorry um ACM aluminum claded materials it's basically it's a two pieces of aluminum with a a substrate in between and it's um uh you see it a lot in car dealerships uh in other places they use it to to bend it's about a quarter of an inch thick when they bend it oh so like in a lucco bond or something like that yeah abcco bond is probably a good example yeah I think ACM is the generic version of it um I'm sorry I I I didn't see the proposal for that so I'm I'm not um not knowledgeable about what they're suggesting there but um you know commercial um properties and large institutions might develop some standards that they want to like we heard from The Gardener school you know that they just becomes the corporate standard I don't know if that's the case there or not but um durable material that's for sure so that's what they did talk about it was their branding and I did speak full disclosure about it and I said what I feel like is getting overlooked because I sort of thought about the school was The Branding of Milton Milton's brand is not being um recognized um and if you know you in the master plan you know one of the first few paragraphs is um we want to preserve um you know the character and historic um look of the town and I think and I forget what the name the little tagline of the master plan it's like it's really clever and I like it a lot it's like planning for probably pres preserving our past and planning our future yes yes and so it's um so I feel like that bank is and again it's or East Milton as a whole we want to preserve what's good about it and plan for the future but not go so far off that we're um that we're getting away from a kind of a village feel one thing I'll say is um as one who I do appreciate historic architecture I've traveled a lot to Historic CI and have seen where Architects have been quite successful designing new buildings and that don't replicate the historic buildings but fit in and I just want to make sure that we keep that opportunity here too that we're not dictating something that's becomes a little pesy you know no and I and I love that look too but sometimes I feel like it can be a big miss you know um I I like having um newer buildings as long as it's giving nod to the past but so sometimes it's materials that are used sometimes it's proportion scale so forth one thing um I'd say too just a there aren't too many I'd say corporations like a santandar that wants something that's a high maintenance material like a cedar sighing for example that you might have found in a historic New England commercial building it's just um the maintenance on those things the durability the and depending upon other things now the fire codes for flammability or you know fire resistance um extra materials depending upon how close they are to other buildings what we you could do 100 years ago or 200 years ago you can't do today you know in today's code so we just have to you know kind I think we can work we obviously we work with The Branding you know I just I drove through Andover Center you know you see Rocko trust they don't have internally lit signs they have Nick they have a very tasteful it's understated I just drove you know in another area down in the cape they have a um a Dunkin Donut which has gooseneck lighting you know they have a very simple um signage and it's on a shingle style building it we can I think we can achieve both we can give The Branding we can give um you know support Redevelopment but I think all of this is just helpful to say this is what we're want it to look like so and I think to the you you just mentioned a couple communities I've spent almost 40 years working throughout New England there are a lot of towns that will not allow the image programs that you know National Brands want and the point that you make I think is it's it's a very good point you know we don't have to you don't have to acques um there are some there were plenty of times you'll drive through plenty of towns where you will see that the towns acquiesced to an image program that a brand or or a uh a national program wanted um in some cases it's it's a mistake you know to do so uh so um it's what sets Milton apart and distinguishes Milton you know from other communities you you feel like you leave the city agreed you're you're coming into um a historic suburb of Boston and there were plenty you know it's hard to hold on to that and there's other there's towns that have you know dramatically changed and I have to say it's you know property values are there's a there's a direct correlation between the towns that are a little bit more um have a little bit more criteria and and um and ask for a little bit more versus those who don't and when you're in those business districts in those towns that have had a more a more strict criteria it is much more aesthetically pleasing to to be there we all enjoy those communities you go into those towns and you enjoy being there just um it just feels like a more enjoyable space to be in so um so maybe one of the things that as I look through this again is maybe some of the examples that we can find can also be kind of a more contemporary like interpretation instead of all being historic just to kind of show that there are ways to do it um and there's a couple in here so um Josh Josh had a few in there yeah I mean that might be something just to I know this is a complete package but and maybe it's we can look at the language a little bit further just to say that uh we're not discouraging I know when I've looked in Boston where I've done my office has done a lot of our work it's they don't want to um discourage a contemporary interpretation so they'll go through a whole list of things and they're guidelines um but they they want to make sure that they leave that opportunity there so maybe that we can think about a little bit of language like that Josh and I I just have to go back you know um and look through and see where that might make sense but maybe you can think about that too because this is um you know your work product so yeah we can I can look for for places where the current language might be implying that discouragement of contemporary and just kind of make sure that that's it's more neutral if there if that does exist I mean it can not be you changing some of this but just say like um this adding something that says this these um guidelines are you know not intended to discourage a you know a contemporary interpretation that would be uh respectful of the historic character or characteristics yeah and maybe finding a couple examples couple examples yeah we're going to have 440 Granite soon enough right not before town meeting but yeah that'll probably be a while before we see some good pH we're not encouraging exactly exactly so all right let's we I think we this has been great I think we we I would like to um move on to the site plan review which is also something that I think all of this is sort of very timely that this is coming together with our site plan review that all of this will um big complimentary work all right so can I before we do that just one quick thing I found it where I was reading before it's on page eight of the guidelines at the very the architectural Styles and it says 28% of the buildings were built prior to 1920 and and 27 between 1921 and 1950 it would be better to have that be 1940 and so that we know how many buildings um are subject to this kind of historic consideration oh I see yep okay and then one other quick thing um just because it caught my eye on page six um on in the third um column East Milton Square has been home to drugstores that's probably some language that might be Pharmacy or something else versus drugstore I don't know just kind of Pharmacy a pharmacy local local Services we can change that to Pharmacy it just I think I think it's it sign might have actually said drugstore back historically but we can change it share drugs doesn't we can recreate history if we want of selling drugs like we don't want sold oh I know let me tell you there was a period there were a lot of illuminated signs and it was getting it was a little Honky Tonk we're looking at I think it's we're making improvements so that's all right that's it for now great okay it also include a Cod dealership I don't think we mentioned that yeah that's funny okay um Josh thank you and should we can we look at a a date um maybe the first meeting in January yeah so back to um Joe Curran's Point are we planning on having another community meeting because I do think yes um at the Art Center that was a a good really good turn maybe we need to do a followup yeah I think once we we'll have a final work that we Josh um to present and another Forum you did a great job with that at the but should it be a final one CU what if there's input no I meaning what what we where we have landed and then give time for opportunity and input if there's anything so the question is do they have scope in their contract do you have additional time in your contract Josh have you expanded it we are close I'd have to look back at the contract or the proposal language um in terms of the a third Forum or not and it might not actually clarify that to be honest um but I can look back at the language we are we still have some budget remaining but it is uh nearing the end um and I the other I mean it's not that big of a deal but we the contract extension that we did was through November 30th so if we want to move those you know keep those final monies that are available beyond the 30th we'll have to do another uh contract extension which is a simple thing to do but we just have to go through that administratively with Cheyenne then yeah so yeah because we do have funds still um some funds available but we would and we've not spent any of our um planning board budget um so far so um I think we had talked about with Tim a May for the mayel meeting I'm curious if if we have spent some on U on the areas that were not the 25% because we couldn't use Grant funds for that portion of their work so the the community ra calculations Etc so it would just be good to clarify if yeah I got I have you's contract but Tim um when we just met and talked said we had not used um planning board funds okay okay but cheyen we can just touch Bas on that too okay yes okay um so January meeting with us or January public meeting I think January um would be I I think we need to go we need to go through and have a discussion first ourselves um to go through what the actual zoning language is it give everybody a chance to sort of look at that okay so January with us and then a forum after I think so I think January with us so we all can make sure that we're satisfied with what we have here before we have a public form that's what so we should probably extend Josh's contract out to February the end of February February then yeah yeah okay so we'll need to do that so yeah because this has been great work and we'd like to see this continue so that would be our meeting then um January 9th can we um actually I um is that I'm going to be away um some of January okay um my daughter's graduation out out of the country so um I'll be gone leaving on the 7th and um returning on the 19th so I will miss the the ninth but be back for the 23rd and time for the 23rd okay so you leave I'm sorry then the 7th and return the 19th and I I just think the second would be um too close too close we could meet I mean I don't know if Monday the 6th it's a Monday meeting works for me if that works then we could at least get a meeting in when you were I think it'd be better that you're here for it because that's that's when we're bringing Josh back okay I mean I I think I think I'd rather I'd rather make sure we get here for the six so Cheryl can be a part of that okay can are you available on the six Josh I am yes okay all right if you could sort of U put that date down and and we'll be able to go through the um the zoning language on on that date and sound great okay great thank you so much this was good great presentation thank you Josh done good job thank you all good to see you all right we'll see you in the SE sounds good okay um so now let's uh move on to our are um the Adu um actually you know what would you all mind if we moved up the site plan approval by L and do that first because I felt like we were sort of getting um close to wrapping that up um he's here for the mvta okay um that's going to be last so he's going to stay here all night unless we want to move I don't know I just feel bad having him stay here all night that's all we can either move we can what did you have in mind for that discussion because I thought we were doing that at the next meeting we are going to do that this was just on um to discuss you had requested wanting to um talk about the the um substitute districts at the next meeting so I just wanted to check in on that okay okay and not it tonight it's probably a good thing just to have on at all our meetings in case something comes up yeah so we not yeah we might not need to spend a lot of time so do you want to move up just that quick just brief um MBTA and then we can let um Mr dhy speak to us I think that's a great idea okay unless he's got some input plan approval okay so Tom um we're going to move up this discussion of the MBTA zoning to this time since you're one thing I would caution though in case anybody else who's watching or to tun and thinking it's going be the last we discuss I think we can we and we certainly would welcome discuss offer offer that later in the absolutely okay okay so if you'd like to join us to um yeah yeah and pull that microphone forward there hi good evening 47 ad Street um thank you for uh letting me uh address you I just have two things to talk about that are recent and I think um interesting and they are uh for example uh yesterday yesterday afternoon uh the governor signed into law the 5100 Bill and um that I think is uh significant it's it's an economic development bill but it has in it a new type of uh MVA communities act non-compliance penalty provision and so that I think uh needs uh you know just some some thought and I want to go through uh that can you can you tell me that's a lot of pages in that build can you tell me where that is I didn't make my way all the way through it well for examp yeah I'm going to get there oh okay thanks and um then very briefly uh uh on the 20 know yes on the 18th Duxbury uh you know voted against the uh the MBTA communities act and just I want to touch on that briefly to contrast that just uh for a minute with what uh you know Milton situation is so um sorry okay I think the key Point here is that the um some Milton residents may have voted to reject the NBTA communities act uh application to Milton based on their assessment that Milton should instead accept uh the stated penalties in the MBTA communities act maybe other people voted for different reasons but that might have been one of them and them and there I think that that's um obviously the items specified there and there are four uh are specific and those section B items are the only penalties stated in the statute uh and therefore the hlc itself and the AG cannot unilaterally add other penalties and uh or other funding exclusions that's as we know powerful legal principle and that is what one of the things that was argued to the SJC in its pending only the legislature can add MBTA communities act penalties or otherwise amend the statute however at the eoh hlc's initiative uh the legislature has now added additional penalties for non-compliance to the MBTA communities act and uh it could do the same thing in the same way again so I want to just touch on that um because that needs to be taken into account in terms of assessing where where we are so the economic development Bill signed by the governor Hy yesterday uh includes new Provisions that make specified State Grant programs funding dependent upon a community being in compliance with the MBTA communities act now you'll remember that Milton challenged U as did Bill duso U the uh Seaport $140,800 Seaport exclusion is not within and then it isn't within the four items in the statute well uh in chapter uh in this in this bill 5100 that was signed into law yesterday if you uh go to um House Bill 5100 section 2 uh executive office economic development subsection 7002-1 1352 it is for a grant program for Coastal communities and what this is is um funding shall be used for Community planning and investment activities that stimulate Economic Development and I'm I'm skipping some into construct improve repair maintain and project Coastal assets that are vital to achieving those goals and it goes on and then it has at the end this provision as there is elsewhere as well provided further that grants or other financial assistance in this item shall only be awarded to projects within municipalities that have been deemed in compliance or interim compliance with the multif family zoning requirement in section 3A of chapter 4A of the general laws $100 million and it's excluded by this provision if you go then to section 72-84 that's a grant program for Mass development Finance Agency that's for a program administered by the mass development Finance Agency for site assembly site assessment permitting and other predevelopment and marketing activities to enhance the site's Readiness for commercial industrial mixed use and then it goes on uh revitalization of downtown Cent centers and that it has the same sentence provided further that grants or other financial assistance in this item only be awarded to projects within municipalities that have been deemed or in compliance or inter in compliance with the multif family zoning requirement in section 3A of chapter 48 of the general laws that's $3 million the concern here is that at the let me go back a step at the the uh the Milton has a very good relationship and they'll come to it I'm sure with uh the yeah with the massachusett school building authority now uh among the many guideline elements of pre purported preclusion they have 13 right the the two I've just mentioned are two within that 13 now also within the 13 is mass Works infrastructure and Local Economic Development grants we just talked about Local Economic Development grants um any any of the others of those at any time they could add that same paragraph to the extent that they already haven't uh added it so far with regard to Cort and with regard to the the other funding uh so so one concern is that this isn't about say the town's relation good relationship with uh the Massachusetts school building authority this was introduced at the end in conference by the governor governor Healey as as a way then at at that point to add these particular elements to the statute you think about it at that point and I probably don't have all of the examples but at that point um yeah uh you know Boston is is is itself exempt from the NPA communities act right um the uh the cap and Islands right are not not not addressed by it Western Massachusetts is not addressed by it all of the compliant where you know for whatever reason they chose to be compliant uh municipalities right all of the those have no reason at the point that this is coming into the conference and their their legislators don't have any particular reason to object to this added paragraph what this is is this is a way to try to address at least in for the from now on for example that objection that was made uh that for the $140,800 now that's I still think a valid objection at the time because it wasn't legislated but but it's a it's a developing Dynamic that really I think changes things and also shows that the the governor's got the ability to kind of you know appropriately or otherwise to to to um insert this kind of a provision as an additional method of protecting their initiative um with regard to there's one more point though with regard to the um I take any more time but there's one more point with regard to the U yeah the mass the massworks infrastructure program it's in the it's in the statute right and uh one of the concerns I have about it is that unlike so many of the other U Provisions that one has a a a a a phrase in it that's not helpful so the mass workor infrastructure program which is in the multif family zoning statute referenced uh it could affect uh funding infrastructure elements of public school improvements or new Public School developments because the mass Works infrastructure statute chapter 23A section 63 of the Mass general laws expressly uh cover projects including but not limited to certain specified projects it's that phrase including but not limited to and when you think about infrastructure and you would look at um what is public infrastructure it starts with actually the town hall and public schools and then it goes through the whole Litany of uh aspects in which there are um whether it's the roads Etc so there are a couple of um Dynamics there that um I think uh just need to be paid attention to because the penalties will potentially increase over those which already are specified in the statute um and that and I and I think you know that's that's what I have to notwithstanding the good relationship that the town has with say for example the Massachusetts School uh building authority this isn't coming from them this is cominging or otherwise the seport group this this is coming from the from the executive office um lastly I thought it was interesting the ducksbury voters rejected I think it was 793 to 81 uh votes U uh they rejected the uh uh application to them now that's interesting because the nearest mvta uh whether it's a Subway or a commuter rail or you know a ferry terminal or a bus station they they the nearest of any of those and there's only one and it's um south of uh the Duxbury Southern border it's in Kingston so you drive down or somehow get down about a mile and a half and then turn around and take a take some uh MB MBTA related Commuter Rail station back to Boston um the the zoning guidelines require them to have 750 family units simply because that's the right that's the that's the arbitary um without statutory authorization that's the arbitary minimum the reason I mentioned it is um you know they don't even have the alternative which Milton has which is um just hypothetically assumed that Milton had a a subway station and Milton also had proximity to commu rail station the literal words of the stat says at least one uh uh you know uh one uh District of reasonable size reasonable size right and it and and it has or or or so consequently uh in addition to the fact that there is no subway station and then it's n .95 miles over to to Ashmont even if somehow or other that were applicable which is not the fact that Milton does have proximity to uh commuted Rail stations and can construct a zoning uh applicable to that um is is itself I think um dispositive in the sense that the argument about whether or not something with regard to the uh a subway station uh should be applicable to Milton in some way is is uh moot because the fact of the matter is should Milton choose to uh follow the community rail station analysis and proceed in that regard that that ends that ends that ends the analysis so that's all I have I just thought it was interesting that the eohc was able in the governor are able to um add that new type of uh inserted uh penalty methodology well you use the word insert I would call it extort that a blackmail it's blackmail it and I think it's really unfortunate and I've lost an incredible amount of respect for governor Healey over this she should have let the process play out she should not have inserted herself and I think it's a disgrace and she should be embarrassed by it and our legislators should be embarrassed by it too um not just Miltons but all the impacted towns they should have waited and they're not respecting the judicial process and that is just disgraceful so it's just unfortunate and um I I don't know what to say it's just I'm extremely let down by um our all of our government officials from our local uh senators and Representatives going back when this started years ago I requested both our Senator and representative to come to our planning board meetings and they refused to I wanted I asked them multiple times I wanted to know why they voted for this why this plan was good for Milton and neither one of them none of them came so this process has been so disappointing to me personally and um I'm all about retaining local control and Governor has just overstepped that and I think it's just unfortunate and I'm just disappointed Tom as as someone who has as much experience and success doing what you have done H how would the SJC potentially look at what just happened with legislation being packed into that economic Bill to try to reinforce the initiative so I so look I've been I've done a lot of cases in front of the SJC including this I believe the single most important commercial case the EMC case um I I think at this point what they would do is to say well wait a minute uh we'll deal with the matters and the arguments that are in front of us uh if if if you know the problem I I think that for Milton is that um there are many ways and reasons in which a a governor or or even a particular municipality might influence the outcome of a legislative initiative right treating this for that and um I I I don't I don't U I don't think that the SJC would want to necessarily engage in that they'd say look let's look at what we've got in front of us let's try to assess that um and I but that's about as much as I uh I would have to say on that I think they'd be looking at look this is the record we've got we take it one step at a time if you if you're going to come back and say that somehow someone was misled in how they voted my my my my my take on it was all of those towns that are unaffected and in cities and all of those including Boston alone right and and all of the those that have complied it it isn't a it isn't a big deal for them yeah so it doesn't get the uh and if they're willing to to vote in in favor of it advertently or inadvertently even advertently saying well you know I've done something for the governor maybe for my municipality I'll get something in the return yeah but other than that I don't think to say it in one sentence I don't think the SJC would get involved in any of that at all unless there was some unusual you know unusual aspect that I don't that I don't see so you don't think it would change their judgment you know it's seems like the the the governor is trying to tighten the headlock that um she she prefers to have over these 177 communities and if you're the SJC and you look at that you know does it does it influence them I understand the case before them is the case before them that legislation has has nothing to do with it but just in terms of how they might look at it um would they would they feel for the 177 communities that the that the governor that's a good way to that's a good way to approach it let me let me let me let me just turn that a little bit we already know that let's and we already know that um there are so many aspects of the guidelines that are out that are outside what's outside the the the literal wording of the statute right so so so there's something going on with regard to the way the eohc is trying to in effect expand um a number of ects of a statute that that is rather focused so um so just so so this is a sort of reaction by the go the governor perhaps to um the appropriate assertion that many things here in the guidelines are are outside the F the the uh focus of the statute and and and to try to deal with that but sort of peal basis by adapting us to one or the other so maybe it is at at a certainly it is at a minimum a strong indication uh that that the eohc is is is aware very aware of of the weaknesses and the guidelines and uh trying to address it having said that it you know they they address it through the legislature right so that that is uh well unfortunately all communities there's there's as many communities that are not affected by this legislation as there are communities that are right 177 are that means that there's probably about another 100 there's 351 in the state I think right so you know those others that aren't they they they have no horse in the race right so it's it's it's the unfortunately the the economic bills and how our legislature works is really um it's not necessarily not necessarily beneficial to all the communities within it there's a lot of horse trading that goes on and there's an awful lot of legislation that gets passed with deal making yeah that's the nature of the legislature yeah well these these particular Mass economic bills are not necessarily good now and and couldn't our um our representative Representatives asked to take this portion somehow out of the giant economic Bill and deal with it separately and give it an actual true discussion how come it you know to me it just gets buried and that is so disappointing and it's done purposefully and I'm disappointed in our Representatives that they didn't speak up knowing that we were in the middle of this and we've been waiting why didn't they speak up on our behalf and say you know what let's take this out of the giant economic bill okay back step though because um it was for example Bill Driscoll was the one who wrote the letter with regard to um the uh the uh 40 $40,800 and and he also uh I may be wrong but I believe that he voted against in this this was at the last moment was done in a u you know in the the conference right and I and and I and I and I believe believe he voted against that it's one vote you know um so uh that that's as much as say and if we had if the selectman at the time you know looking back um you know if we challenged the um classification like you had wanted to and you have done you did all that work you know for on behalf of the town you know we would have um maybe not have been in this position it's an it was a missed opportunity and that we're dealing with it now I'm always one to try and do everything we can yeah and then I don't like to live with regrets and I feel like that is something that's a regret that the town has to live with which is unfortunate I would say that within your own expertise there is you know I'm not try to repeat myself but it there is the um ability to take the commuter rail station uh and even within the guidelines that then says oh you have the flexibility to take 50% of of of what you otherwise would have had of I think in my math it was 548 but if that other U Acres it' be five it would be 565 some somewhere in there in terms of the number of multif feelings units and uh you know only half of that would need to be within the half mile radius so so at least with respect to Trying to minimize uh well it assumes that um some degree of multi family zoning increment is desirable and if not that stopped but if it were you have you know at least the ability which uh towns like ducksbury don't have there's still just to 750 that's it um and the irony is that your amount if I'm right on the five let's call it 550 or sou that's less than 750 so you challenge them on that too and say hey we comply with the statute go you go you go away that the guideline is incorrect In in all respects and is to us it's the 750 doesn't apply I I'll stop there yeah it is interesting now because now we're going to talk about Adu so now now all of a sudden if we have to do all this housing then all of those units the 568 units are an additional um potential of another 568 adus as by right so Milton has 9,000 housing units so overnight because of the Adu it's another 9,000 potentially adus um so it's really it's a lot of um a lot of zoning in a very short amount of time and you know planning should be thoughtful and this is not a thoughtful process and I still think that the governor and our legislature have done a huge disservice um to all of us so um May I in in light of um is it a question for Tom because then we'll no I I just want to thank Tom um and just let him know that um we did receive an email from Tim zinsky which was a forward from the Town Administrator so alerting the select board members and the planning board members about this bill and I just want to let the um viewing public know know that they the the particular one you highlighted a couple but there's more and I calculate that they're worth over a billion dollars um and they include the seport Economic Council the site Readiness program the brownfields Redevelopment fund the mass tourism destination development Grant Mass Works which in and of itself is $400 million the underutilized properties program the mass impact grant program which is $252 million the mass cultural facilities fund Local Economic Development grants uh the mass Board of Library Commissioners funding for Library projects the mass historical commission's historic preservation grant program and the mass development's priority development site program um and all of those have that language that you refer to um that you have that you're not eligible um if you're not compliant deemed compliant I have those same ones and the only and the only only two of those the mass Works infrastructure program and the Local Economic grants are among the four in the statute so you've got 13 minus you know if you got 11 that are U out of out of Statute and some we knew about and some we didn't know about right about they said some were in the GU were added to the guidelines the original 13 that she piled on but not all of these and you know I I just want to take exception to saying she and and the governor this and that the legislature this is their bill she signed the bill however it came the juice that made it happened in the end they're the ones responsible they're all not for adding all respons they're all responsible for having approved it and I I just you want you can argue about how it got there but they all signed they all not going to argue they voted the 13 weren't done by the legislature the 13 wer done they voted by our governor I have I thought I had the governor's letter I'll get it to I'll get I'll get it to you um the governor certainly took a lot of credit for the initiative yeah you know and she has her 501c3 you know the one Commonwealth where no one knows where that funding's coming from you know it's just she's got a huge and you know i' I've been following the this is not the agenda of discussing NBTA communities is to trash the governor I'm sorry I think we're out of line here I don't not I'm just saying that I think that the the governor did pay a a significant part in this initiative this agreed great thank you so much um thanks Tom thank you Tom and so the the reason why again we have this always on the agenda in the event that we do need to talk about something um Cheryl had emailed and asked if we could um there were the districts that we had narrowed down to when we last had the um our discussions on MBTA zoning we were there were two that we had narrow it down to that were going to be evaluated by util it was St Pas the site was St pases and it was a site at 7-Eleven Randolph Avenue so we never heard the results of that just one other piece to that though there was um the anal is to take the Elliot Street and have it be three units and not four across the board that was part of the analysis part of it too yeah and what um yeah sorry I interrupted you but what I my request had been was just to schedule U to come in to follow up on what we agreed to at that meeting so that it wasn't just left left hanging out there I'm I'm fine with that having them come back cuzz I was curious on how those districts would would play out I thought they were supposed to look at the Rand a right the Rand app yeah so I'm I'm curious on how um because Tim made a comment that that those seem less desirable but I don't know what that Bas I don't I know and Cheyenne decided that they were less desirable based on their scorecard in Alice Tom you had something else you wanted to I just I'm sorry I did find a letter and I'll hand I only have one copy that I'll hand it to you and it does contain the sentence this legislation includes nearly all of the authorizations and transformative policy initiatives that I filed in March bringing the total authorization to nearly 4 billion Etc I'm just saying I think she had some role in the initiation she's proud of it yeah well yes so that's fine too I'm not that's right thank you very much thanks appreciate it um okay so that would be the the December 12th meeting that we would invite U to come um and just present the the um the findings on that do you mind also just for context too like I had asked with the Forum being cancelled was youtil scheduled to come in and I had emailed Meredith and Tim and um and Meredith said yes she had planned for them to come in but Tim said that they had they needed Direction before coming in because with the stopping of the Forum but I said you know um that I thought that we had given them Direction and we should see where that landed and then we could decide what to do next right so um so Tim thought that we should discuss that right so that we could get back to to um to U about what we would be asking them to come so the only concern that I have with that is um you know you had stated that Meri that one of the reasons not to have the Forum is we don't want to cause anxiety to Residents or certain um neighborhoods in town do you think talking about this is going to cause anxiety I think we need to frame it that we we we've heard a number of times we should think of ourselves as commuter rail and you know one of those areas is commuter rail and people need to understand what it really means like it's easy to say well yeah let's just do commuter rail but what does it actually mean where is it because just like you start when you're in East Milton or when you're La Street quter once you start looking on a partial basis it change it changes the way people begin to think about it so I don't think we're saying that we're PL proposing any of these but what we're doing is responding to comments that we should look at other areas of town and we should look at commuter rail and it's not that we're recommending anything yet but at least we're doing the analysis that's that's what I think about Randolph a that's what I think about St pas and that's what I think about Elliot Street I'm we all received an email from Pete Jackson concerned about increasing any of the um unit capacity in the other Street quarter it's our responsibility to use the technical assistance to look at these things I believe and go to the public which is why I felt the for was important is just to kind of bring them up to speed on what we're looking at and and how these things are interrelated if you take something here and you have to here are the things you have to look at I think u's best to explain that because the way they especially Zoe I find explains it it's understandable like if you um the land area calculations and so forth so that's my thinking behind it and I understand some people might get concerned but people will get concern they understand that this is not our yeah and the other concern is recommendation yeah the other concern is you know when anyone's in a lawsuit you know unfortunately has been in plenty um the the advice from the attorney is always don't comment until the the judges have ruled so that is my concern that we are speaking um when maybe we shouldn't be speaking about it um you know La says well anyway that's my that's my concern so we're also pushing towards a 25% plan my thought was that we were going to individually look at 7-Eleven Rand individually look at St P see what we can get out of those districts my think that's what you're getting excuse me but we're not because we're taking away from East Milton Square and we're adding on to to Elliot Street and we're doing all the stuff pushing towards a 25% compliant plan so if we want to look individually at just rph a that's great but if we're going to Cobble it into a 25% plan I don't think we should be doing that right now so what we asked them to look at those Parcels to see what it would take to make those as close to 15 units an acre that's the law when you say those Parcels what do you mean Rand a St Pas right does it stop there or does it does it does it we ask them to look at we ask them to look at those as around as close to 15 units an acre more we didn't ask them to look at any if we choose to swap them out with something else that's separate but that we're doing that in our analysis and in in our Forum it's like we're pushing towards a 25% plan from what I see so the a reason why I don't want to do it so the thing about the in in my view the way we looked at those is it's easier to peel back from 25 to 10 or 15 than it is to start at 10 and then bump it up to 25 we're going to 25 is what you're saying and then we're going to peel back yeah that well but no I think it's a little premature to be jumping into 25 personally well we we have a consultant who's under contract we asked them to look at certain things I'd ask I'm asking for the work product that we agreed to at a previous meeting to come back to us and the fact that any of it is information to inform whether it's 10% 15% 25% it's all information it shows what you can fit on that particular site or that particular site it's up to us to decide how we use that information and if you think that you don't want to use it for 25% and the judge comes back and says that's what we have to be you know well we I think we're we are preparing ourselves for whichever situation that the justice has come back with that's the way I view it and if we don't do the analysis now we're going to be behind it'll take us longer to get there down the road and I I think it's cleaner if when we've asked them to do something is to have a work product that shows that that particular piece of analysis instead of just halting it and I just want to also comment that we haven't been advised as far as I know by Town Council in executive session or otherwise or in Open Session that we shouldn't be doing this and so unless we get that advice I don't see why we should be worried about that I 100% am worried about the Supreme Court looking at what we're doing saying ah you know what they're already working toward 25% plan I don't want to doing I'm and I'm have we asked Town Council if it's okay or if we're disclosing I haven't asked Town Council neither have I I haven't asked him I'm I I think and I was reading going back in reading the minutes I think the concern was creating a a sense of anxiety unnecessarily with the residents is more of what I um my feeling was so I think studying the districts for each district and and what what we can get out of those districts is more of the way I was looking at approaching it um than setting forth with any particular specific plan at this time so um you know maybe Zoe can evaluate just just those districts like you were saying you would be curious to see how many units we could get you know as you know 15 units per r or a little above what does that what does that look like I also don't want the Elliot Street quarter to sit on the book The Last at the last presentation on the books and have Elliot Street neighbors worried that we're telling them four units and they or four units a parcel down to those so maybe they can present maybe what we what we would be asking UTI to um to present that evaluation without having it be a 25% compant plan that's not what we're just we we need to look at each parcel individually until because until we know what the SJC is going to decide we don't want a specific plan um but we're we want to be prepared for different options but I'll leave it up to the board on how we how we if we want youtil to come and if we want to ask specifically for that um information because we did request it they've done the work do we want to know or do we want to just not well I do think I I I think I want to know for sure we asked them to do what we want to see their work product the question is just when um so at our December meeting um you know we're going to be getting very close to when we're getting a decision back I think if they present it at the December meeting we have the information we don't have the Forum until we get the decision but at least we're going to have I think um Sean you said at our last meeting we have we're only so many options we have a pretty good idea how we have to go this piece of information why wait until January for it I I mean we can be thinking about it once we get that we can be thinking about it as soon as we get that decision in so um I'd like to see it in December so even if worst case scenario the SJC comes back and you know says you guys have to do it um I think there's still a question out there that does the town of Milton want to do it a lot of people voted no um they want us to be noncom Cent I I don't think we should assume that even with the addition of all the the the grants that just got passed that the town of Milton and her residents are going to automatically want to comply so well I'm just going to go back to the town of Milton voted to reject a particular piece of zoning the town of Milton didn't vote to be non-compliant because that's not the question that was put in the referendum because for the referendum you had to put the exact same language so you're 100% right they did vote on the exact same language that was passed at town meeting because that's what was required to do but a lot of people voted no CU they didn't want anything well there's a this board talked at length about wanting a better plan was going to develop a better plan not that this board was never going to do a plan so you know I think um it's our job to present if we're required by the law as uh the court will come back and tell us it's our just like I said before it's our responsibility to present a plan a zoning compliant zoning and then it's up to the town meeting to take a vote vote on it and if uh if the town meeting and takes a vote that people now with more information you know I there were plenty of people who said they just didn't think the plan was fair to because of East Milton so if they think a plan is better you know I don't think you can say that they would vote to say that we should you know take ourselves out of the running for a billion dollars in grant money and affect potentially affect schools like we heard tonight um so it's not a billion dollars for let's just be careful to the listening audience cherl just said is not is not what's on the table for Milton well we won't we definitely won't get a billion that's the whole state the reality of it is there's no certainty of any of that funding no certainty of it and Tom said something earlier we don't know Tom Tom said some of the voters who knows if it's 1 or a th000 or 2,000 we have no idea why some people vote no some may have voted no as Tom said for simply the reason that they would prefer to accept the penalty because it's you opt in or you opt out this is one of the cases or this is part of the case that's been presented by uh by our attorney um so we don't know we have no idea what people's motivations were we don't know people's motivations that voted yes so uh and you know and certainly so much time has passed um there's so much more information out there to those that have have paid attention many people are paying attention to even Duxbury now you know in Duxbury voting no so I think for those that have decided to pay attention um you know the actions of other communities is informing a Milton resident or a Milton voter uh better than back when they voted um you know I I stem by what I said the last time when we discussed this in the meeting I think it's going to create excitement for some if they feel like they're community Community or the area of the community is being relieved um and anxiety for others if others feel that they are going to be burdened by by the zoning that we discuss um we don't know what the SJC is going to do whether they're going to make a decision before the end of the year or not um if you know I don't have an issue if this is something that gets discussed in December unfortunately the latter part of the year in December is not the best time in terms of getting it getting people to pay attention to the plan me that's better in terms of anxiety I don't know yeah I don't know but you know people get busier in December so it's it's not it's not when we can attract the biggest audience I'm not sure what month of the year we can attract the biggest audience but um I think it's this this is more for us than for the the audience really for now until we do the Forum yeah so uh I'm I'm fine if we do it in December I am yeah I mean one thing I will say is that we will come in compliance depending on what the Supreme Judicial Court rules I'm willing to I'm expecting to do what they say um it wouldn't hurt to listen to you teal I just don't want to push towards a 25% plan I don't think that that's right I just think we should look at all the distri districts individually sort of that's our ammo and then when we get our decision from the Supreme Judicial Court we Cobble together our plan 10% 25 maybe it's an adjacent Community I have no idea um well be 10% but you know I don't know but I don't want to I just can't say enough I don't want to tip our hand to the Supreme Court I think they need to be they're already I'm sure listening to everything and they're not the fear is that they're not going to be objective as we say oh we've got a 25% plan I just think it's a bad idea but I guess I mean I would be not opposed to doing something in December and then waiting meaning having utl Comm listening to utl and then waiting so do you you and cheyen want to just talk with youtil and see what they think that based on that prior meeting and this discussion what they think they can present to us just I'll yeah let's let's do that um Cheyenne is that all right we'll have a call you know and maybe talk to you and say you know without developing a particular plan can we evaluate those you know look at those districts and what they found yes we actually have a close out meeting so timidi tomorrow morning so we can bring that back to them I think given that I'm just going to make this request given that we were close to looking at how this could work as a 25% plan but with alternative districts can we just see if these work that way so we will have the answer I'm not so that's a 25% plan yeah but that's but but Jim it's just analys I would rather I'm 10 of5 I would say no but you keep pushing it so I don't know put it to a vote I don't know what to say it's part of what we had asked them to do before but what I'll say about the again about the 10% is it's a whole conversation Tim had told us contrary I think to what Mr dhy said that um a commuter rail and an Bas in community it's not tied to a half a mile it can go anywhere anything can go anywhere so we have these District scorecards and we should look at the Tim and Cheyenne did they took a stab at it and we should take a look at what they did and China can run through it with us and we can see if we agree with them because we in the end we still have to have logic we said that there's going to be we spent a lot of time talking about criteria to make decisions and any new District should be run through the same criteria um and um I I think that's something that we could talk about at that meeting as well so I'm not necessarily wanting to talk about anything however um you guys are so I would be more inclined to if there was going to be a discussion um looking at um individual Parcels I think I've said this before that possibly we agree on you know um I am I'm concerned about you know all this density that's going to come very quickly I I do think it's going to happen fast um and I think some of the successful towns that I've been in been into they've kept their density kind of on the outskirts of town um I don't want to see Elliot Street um destroyed um and I think we should be looking if if we're going to look at something look at truman Parkway first because that's closest to the commuter rail um and I think that's where we should start our discussion that was one thing we asked them about tan Parkway could work they had their doubts about it but have they looked into it maybe they could look into it and find out um so I'd concede to that and I if you know we we you folks eliminated sites last time uh like the nursing home site but um nursing home site 1 12200 BR 648 Kon we we got rid of too right and there was other sites on on Rand have I don't know they seem to think they they didn't want to have to look at all of them so I think we narrowed it down but maybe by narrowing it down they have learned something from those that they could help us with on the others so that's why I think it's useful to hear from them so if we had them look at the Truman Parkway could and 7-Eleven Randal fa where that 40b 7-Eleven Rand Pi they sure have already looked at St P Pi they would have information and they would also have information on Elliot Street CU I think they'll see that Elliott Street like without even seeing it I know that's in my mind would be really more dense than I would like to see on Elliot Street um but I haven't seen there but not as a not as a you know looking at each site um I think looking at you know Jim's point is is looking at each site individually and I think if we have to get there you know we we can get some sites cuz I think it was said that you know previously that we don't have a lot of options and um but we when we' say look at a site we have to have like what are you trying to do on that site like what's you two will say well what's the density you're trying to achieve on the site like what's looking at it really mean well for example 7-Eleven Randolph a the way it stands now I think it's 12 units per acre so I would look at that side and say okay if there's 100 units being built right now let's up the zoning a little bit to maybe 120 or 130 till you get to 15 or 16 units per acre that's what I consider looking at that site right that site is already being built I mean no matter what the scorecard tells me I look at net new you know dispersing the units around time there are a few criteria that I look at that lead me to say 7-Eleven is a is a no-brainer and one of the arguments was at 12 units per acre we would have to add more somewhere else we'll up it to 15 so you don't have to add more somewhere else that's what I call looking at a site yeah so to if we did 15 an acre there stick with 7-Eleven and then you know you're only going to do 15 an acre anywhere then you have to take the Elliot Street out so I'm not saying that I'm just saying looking at a site looking that's an example of what I would look at for that site so to me if you're going to do a commuter rail or adjacent community and your Target by the law is 15 units an acre what does that look like well our Target is 15 because of the statute not because of a 10% or 25% I understand but if you're saying look at a site M what do you say is just three units in acre is it five units in acre is it 15 is it 25 the only thing that you're if you're not going to use the design guidelines in any way to determine what your analysis is then you got to go with the law right so that's 15 I'm not going to use them in any anyway I'm saying that they we that I weigh certain criteria heavier than others so we have our 45 criteria and each criteria gets a value of one and this is something I missed the light bulb went off a couple of weeks ago I wish net knew or proximity to the te um or likelihood of being built were weighted heavier getting diluted by 40 this is what I other criteria this is what I wanted to discuss at The Forum because it should be that the it here I me the public need to also weigh in on the criteria because in the end why is it five of us decide what the most important criteria are if for some people it's going to be different and the other thing I want there's been over close to 600 survey responses I asked Tim to um and Sh to send those to me which I reviewed and had put some slides together for the Forum um and you know there's some data in there you know you can talk about samples but there's data in there and if you dig in you know you can also um see you know which precincts people were you know commenting from and if you really dig in you can see you know uh you know how people responding from certain precincts on certain questions but um we got a lot of comment that in the whole process of the yes no that there a lot of people people were felt felt like didn't know about it you know like it it happened even though we said there were a lot of meetings and it was in the paper and everything so they didn't know the yes no vote no they didn't know about the details of the zoning like people they were unaware of it until that time period right like they for two the law was on the books for a long time we worked on it we had lots of meetings it was the front page of the Milton times but there were still people who didn't know about it so uh and they were there were questions about how well how why these districts you know why these locations and so um you know having um you know sound reasons I mean other than it's a vacant parcel somewhere you it's much easier I think to justify um when someone asks a question about well why is it this location why that why this density or that is if you have a way to compare what your options are and then you can see whether people agree with you by having a you know a colorcoded system in the public forum if you look at the scorecard and you total all the criteria up every District gets a d or an F right so we're not picking great sites to begin with um that kind of bothered me as well well we don't have what some communities have are like understand so I mean at some point we're going to have to make the decision right we're going look at the so the question is do we want come based on cuz I we have um it's 9:30 right now and I really do want to get through the site plan approval so that's already been you know moved forward to to the uh Town Council to start reviewing so I just would love to sort of get to wrap that up for a little piece if we if we can at least tonight so is this we are going to um pencil and util see if they can do it I'll talk to Cheyenne see if they can do what we're requesting with the understanding that we need to have an understanding of these sites without having this be um necessarily driven by um a certain plan at this point yeah yeah is that fair yeah I think it should come from that fair yeah does that sound fine with me okay all right Cheyenne so I'll touch base with you tomorrow on that perfect okay all right thank you all um can I just ask what you said about what what version's been sent to Town Council because so Tim said he's um sent sort of where we were on our site plan approval just knowing that it's it's not a final draft but that um okay that sort of what we had language he wanted them to just have an opportunity to start looking through to see if there was anything that stood out that would yeah it just was C was did it include um a lot of the material that um Maggie added at the end or not I don't know that I had questions about some of that so I'm just curious you know I don't think it did Happ Maggie's version was under the redlined and then we sent a clean copy and a redlined copy so that was sent to uh Town Council Cheyenne yes and if he crosses it all out well yeah I think I mean I reviewed it in the last couple of days so I don't know if my questions and comments and additions were in what was sent but um yours we probably it either Friday or Monday so okay that's what I okay so um so Jim yours and I make I said what you added what I added doesn't make it to what's in town council's yet but that's okay yeah we discuss it here yeah and it can be added it could be sent again yeah updated um okay let me find so Cheyenne in the clean in the clean version it does include mag comments no because uh we last meeting we didn't get to Maggie's stuff we only cleaned up up to what was actually discussed okay oh so I had it in this okay all right so it's in the what's in the folder now what's in the folder now includes also things that I commented on an ADD and Jim did so maybe what we could do is have Cheyenne pull it up yeah that would be great cheyen good so I'm kind of thinking under purpose we pulled some purpose things from various towns I just be curious to see we probably don't need this many things in here and it's almost like somebody needs to take it and kind of incorporate it and I don't know if that's Town Council or one of us or Cheyenne you know on I'm just talking about purpose now because we kind of lumped a bunch of different towns kind of ideas in there but there's some duplication and um they just need somebody to kind of edit edit it yeah so I don't think we need to go through here I just think somebody needs to do it so is it is that town council's role I mean I would think maybe well I actually don't know that they write zoning you know necessarily but Cheyenne I don't know how you feel I don't want to add anything to you but do you feel like this is something that you could do or is it do you think it's better for one of us to do or Town Council to do I could go through and take out all of the like duplicates um but I think it would also be beneficial have a second set of eyes on that just make sure it's how you'd like it all right so yeah so I think if you would do that that would be helpful like under the purpose section right y cheyan can you scroll so we can see the entire purpose section uh on the screen okay and it ends right there okay that's the entire thing it ends at Authority right right go I I'm um you know if you guys prefer to do things in this manner I'd be happy to take the purpose section and do that Shan can do it as well and then we'll have we'll have two um or I could do it myself and Cheyenne doesn't have to do it uh just so I can get rid of the duplicity so okay that would be great Sean yeah okay great thanks Sean and then you can review it too in it with him and then the Authority seems like Tim put that it seems like that seems okay right yeah yeah that's I he did we didn't have that in there and I thought we should have something about the authority and so um I guess that's something like Town Council would want to look at right y exactly so then applicability so in these notes we have highlighted um well this is where we said we want to come back to also when I had that conversation about interior work but um and then we were discussing whether mix should be a separate paragraph or not so in that are you talking about an a we're talking about yeah so whether mixu should be there or it's on paragraph C um I thought we agreed that it's okay to keep it there rather than adding a different paragraph but we I mean is there do other towns is there how do other towns I I didn't really look at that did which was slick was they did like a tier mhm where they had a major site plan minor site plan exent from site plan and it had limited site plan and then site plan review modification when you want to come back and change things I mean that seems like it would I mean it's might be more work for us to Define what a major site plan and a minor site plan is but I think that's what Tim thought it might be it would clean this up a lot it just make it easier for the end user I think I just think that's going to be a total rewrite but yeah that seems like it's more like I think we could add that later at some point but it might be I thought it was very yeah no I you know as a guy coming to before the board I'd be like this makes sense where do I fall in here mhm M just thinking to the end user cuz this is very long and a lot of regulation for someone trying to do a development and if we're talking about making things easier right so maybe what we should do is get what we like want for everything and then we could peel back what we think for the smaller things if we get what we want for everything and then give it to a guy and have him or a girl and have them edit it just like we did with East Milton Square I mean that was really smooth what Josh did for us was great on a smaller scale can we do that here get a consultant to do it I think we want to have our real life experience like what we go through on all of our projects that create problems that are that are vague okay having you know but I mean whether we want to have MC like take it and you know I don't know maybe that's not a bad thing I mean I don't feel comfortable making edits that would you could give to town coun and be like yeah this was great or you know tweaked it a little bit I mean I I when I think what I initially like getting all of the ideas of what we think should be in here and then maybe running it through somebody with expertise and then we back and TW a second time third I mean I'm not certainly I I would be fine with that we have the money right we should do that for Adu as well so let's let's continue running through like content wise and then I mean I agree with you um Jim that for something small like even when we were talking about if you if MBTA communities comes in and site plan review is going to refer our MBTA commun will refer to this for site plan review if you have a three unit building you know that can maybe be treated differently and if you have an interior renovation versus a 20,000 Square ft or a 20 unit but we we're going to have to think those through yeah a little bit more weed doing a th foot Barber Shop do I have to do a traffic study you know it's like well that's why I added those things at the last meeting about triggers for those I know but to your point if you separated them out you wouldn't have to necessarily have a trigger but maybe the the short I don't know short term is run through what we where we think we want these now and exactly that what you're trying to do Merida yeah and so let's go back to just a where we have no mixed use um multif Family building excluding two family residences then we would just be changing the language to no multif family building no multif family and taking out Mixed use is that what is that the intention on well I'm just thinking we want excluding two families and wasn't that because of the adus because we want we want to when an Adu comes we want site plan approval yeah CU we're not calling adus to families specifically for that reason right CU I was looking at the Adu bylaw language also and we're not this this language came from our old um existing so we we should be thoughtful about what we might want it to be now so it was saying that for a two family resident you didn't need to go to site plan approval before right so this is saying that that's Remains the Same um but the Adu bylaw is going to say that you have to go for site plan approval I think the way we're thinking of it so why why exclude the two families now except that that's more red tape for a two family it's crazy then why include you can't even do a two family need to you know I mean we have no zoning which allows well well if we write adus the way we're writing this you know 16 pages long we shouldn't need site plan review now my my question when we get to the adus is why shouldn't we just refer to this for site plan review that's what we're that's what we said we were going to do with the NBTA communities we shouldn't have it in separate sections anymore then the then I think you so here and and it wouldn't just be two families wouldn't it be three families cuz if you took if you took a two family and each unit my understanding is each unit can add an Adu so now it becomes a four single family that's a good point if it's a two family you can add a unit no I don't think so you can a resident eventually any any property in a residential Zone can add an it's any residential dwelling unit I thought res by I think it goes by parcel but it's a residentially zoned parcel so if you if you have a two family in a residential Zone parcel you can add one by right I didn't realize that so we have what we're doing here is but I think it's only one but it's only one unit unless you go for there's some kind of a special perit clause which what when we get to that we can discuss let's switch gears and work on Adu it's more fun well I'm just thinking um well on that all I wanted to do was say that it should refer to a site plan approval so that does that change anything about applicability here um so we want to say no multif family building the reason it says exclud I mean apparently we've learned from the MBTA communities that a two family is not considered multif family in definitions elsewhere in state so which should actually be saying no multif family building including two family yeah residences it should be right everything but a single has to go for Cy review is that am I interpreting including two family residences as well as attached single family residences than you just say and attach I take you sure of course they just uh there's so that repetitive now Cheyenne okay so I think that achieves what we want to say correct I think Adu says Adu on same lot with the principal dwelling it's I don't think it's a presidential it says it's not considered a two family like on the state's website which is really weird there's an Adu section on the website which I was looking at the last couple of days um and that's where I thought it said single family too but I like I took a note the three family is would be considered a principal dwelling so the argument could be made that an Adu could be constructed I think there was UN St the statute does not say single family dwelling okay it's a residential parcel according to Judy Barrett when I watched her uh video okay all right well then I only did the hlc one so um all right well I guess this takes care of with that for now on the site plan review right so then I'd say um on the mixed use we already we do have some mixed use already right so how is it considered like let's say the building that um Elliot physical therapy and the two residences are considered let's say they wanted to alter that what does that fall under is that what's triggering site plan approval that should be site plan review modification under nxs I don't know know so you could say construction reconstruction or alteration of a mixed use building where be in Conformity with site plan just like the the business one above it any sign nice right or you can put more than 800 square ft I guess no actually maybe maybe what we do is just put it in the commercial sorry why don't like put it in B say of a commercial or mixed use building that's what I thought that's we do sorry cheyen time let's just put it up with the commercial in paragraph B I think you could put mixed juice right on the second line where commercial is though there you go do you want to add or there of a mixed use is it commercial building of a mixed use and then or commercial building Cheyenne yeah that that should do it and then take out the sea mhm that seems to just just in aside why do we I keep seeing endorsement of approval why can't it just be approval I that's the old language that part so yeah I don't know where where that language came from or if you want to change it cuz that's maybe how it's written we endorse we our vote is to endorse a site plan approval right we're not approving it that's a good point so we're looking for the select board to pass right no cuz we we have site plan approval but we're endorsing the plan is what the way it comes to us and the decisions are usually written oh really okay it's we and that's because that's been our motion to endorse support of the site plan approval it it is it is the proper language because you could endorse a rejection too I mean to endorse doesn't necessarily always mean that you're you're in favor of it all right so I think it's a phrase it's okay thanks guys can we just scroll back up why did do we had highlighted um inner residence D2 D2 was that being um highlighted for a certain reason I think that's the old one too but I don't know why it's there that was in the old one what is it G2 is that something anyone highlighted or I didn't tend to highlight I don't think we need to yeah we can UNH highlight that or just I think maybe I highlighted it I don't know but why is that called out that zoning called yeah maybe you were thinking it shouldn't have any like why is that called out separately like we have others we have like not just D2 districts doesn't tell us what a D2 so I'm I'm thinking like strike that sentence because maybe that's [Applause] well we should look at what D D2 I think is got figure it out you know to a particular project probably like winter Valley or full valy that's what I that's what I think mentions nursing homes Health Care yeah nursing homes health care because we don't want to be we don't want to be reviewing every single family addition home addition no D2 is definitely a kind of a a project yeah so that then that's okay to leave in that well just I'm wondering why it's called out not all of them called out then you know it's like it's calling out one district one type of multif family but not all of them which is just why I was wondering why that was done that way mhm was that Tim's language did Tim put that in there it was in the existing language it was well if we deleted it would Town Council recognize it add it I think we should keep it and then he can delete delete it later we delete it now we may we may Overlook something that we should have kept okay classes District classes districts application and submission requirements well maybe this needs to be the planning board if it's not the planning department because the next s the second sentence says the planning board will determine so if there's a conference I don't know like do we yeah and I don't necessarily have an opinion as to who has the conference I don't think um should it be I mean I would think at first it should go to the planning department and maybe at that point this is sort of what I was thinking at that point the planning department could meet with any other a potentially affected department heads and kind of go through it um you know well so I think um we just should just delete at the conference because so they're going to have the conference with the planning department and then who's going to determine if the proposal is in formity uh or you could leave the at the conference and just change from planning board to the planning department or town staff the planning department will determine if the proposal is in Conformity that's what I would say cuz I would think if you put your you know as Jim said put yourself into um the shoes of the applicant you kind of want to get as much stuff done prior to coming to a planning board meeting oh yeah they meet now with them yeah yeah cuz the planning board only meets twice a month so if you can hash out all the particulars before it saves time 100% and that will speed up the process and then they might the applicant might not need an attorney there you know it's or the planning department might say this is egregious yeah do something else seriously they just might steer them all right so this gives the the department and the board some opportunity before a meeting um because when you come to the plany board the you submit you're you start the clock you know and it's um then the planning board you know has to I think this is I think this the way this is written works because the initial the initial review is the planning department and um in addition the board May hold pre-application conferences at any regular special meeting of the board to discuss the proposed development in any unusual features on the site that require special treatment so we have preserved for the board you know that opportunity um but yet charged to the department with the initial review I guess that's how I that's how I'm looking at it yeah then you keep going um we don't unless we change this we don't have a waiver from site plan approval right based on Project size and impact I think what I highlighted in yellow we need to be struck at this point anyway but that sented so that then also provide an opportunity to discuss the board would need to coordinate reviews other Town approvals traffic set so this really well but again going back to Jim point about the, Square ft Barber Shop not having to do a traffic study doesn't this give the board the opportunity to wave that but not say the approval there's other places you can wave the but here it's giving an idea up front whether you think it's going to be necessary or not yeah okay I get that y we where in the last three lines it references four lines I guess submission of a brief of submission of brief explanator explanatory material including property owner's name assesses map site PL plan if available sketch or description of proposed changes this also could be a new development right it's not just a proposed change couldn't it be new development or proposed changes MH that makes sense so are we taking out that Grant a waiver from site plan approval I think so yeah so take delete the Yellow Part yeah and two we don't need yeah I think you do need to provide an opportunity to discuss the procedures and information the board need two coordinate reviews yeah two coordinate reviews request analysis I don't think you need the sem I don't think you need the semicolon after approval that's what I meant yeah okay are we good with the rest of that thinkk so so moving down to submission oh wait there's yeah sorry yes okay so you were saying take out and these rules and regulations because it's prescribed by the zoning bylaw period yeah y so take out the yellow yeah so I don't think the review fee here because I think I you just see yeah so so it's duplicative with with a some provision Down Below in seven so I think we could strike this um the board shall obtain an estimate that those sentences um it's duplicated that's all it's not that it's removing it entirely yeah so again thought this is duplicative with submission requirements but maybe what needs to happen is somebody needs to review the two and see if something's missing in or you know from one or the other so I'll take this one if you guys want the plan and plan content yeah that'd be good plus you're familiar with with um what you've had to do yeah okay I'll I'll syn synthesize those excuse me thank excuse me okay to 4.5 what that five submission requirements are you looking through that as part of it yeah so it would be those two sections uh 4.4 and five was just too lazy to go through it well it does take up yeah I know B you get you burn out after a bit of looking at this stuff and then it's just choosing which words are better it comes down to word joice a lot well also like if there's industry standard language for some things you know some things have Chang since yeah a lot of this yeah um photometric plans you know what what is that I do like putting I mean at least for now the things that I we talked about last time with things like putting in a trigger you know for traffic and Shadow studies but M so I'll keep those in um so that puts us down to procedures right mhm so I'm just looking under procedures here the language is used application to the Department of planning and Community Development I think we should be consistent in that language either we use Department of that's the official Department that's the official title right right so we really should we shorten it to planning department but I think it should be consistent and yeah and we don't have to change that right now but maybe Cheyenne you could go through at some point um I don't know with the other I think it should be the shorter one yeah planning department yeah okay and you know as long as maybe at the beginning yeah yeah you could put it at the very beginning put the whole thing out and then put in parentheses planning department and good job it's exactly what you do MH okay so we'll we'll note that when we go through okay so procedures I think otherwise this is fine wait I just felt can you go back for one second sorry just was um looking at one thing okay outside Consultants is that far next yeah I pulled that from the MBTA Community zoning which I had inserted into that um I think that's good I think it's more complete than the part we struck earlier the only thing about the part we struck is that it had the opportunity to refund the money if we didn't use the consultant right there was some a portion of the money would be returned back to the applicant if the cost was less I think I thought that was kind of neat it's not a deal breaker for me it just doesn't seem to be in here yeah here it just says that they we may require that they pay review fee assisting of reasonable costs um and if the fee isn't used it would be returned to the applicant you know I don't know how that works what that's what that's presuming is that you pay in an amount before you know what the fees are right whereas here I think you get the fee proposals and then they pay those amounts so there's like nothing except if the guy set for some reason the guy withdraws his application and the guy doesn't show up at the meeting you get that money back or is it just not a detail not worth tracing know if I'm an applicant and I whever my traffic study we hire a peer review ER but then I withdraw my application for whatever reason kind of like the fruit Center did but I've paid the money to the peer reviewer but he doesn't show up does do I get my money back or I wouldn't think so so that's a whole another discussion that I want want to have at some point is I need to understand our peer reviewers a little bit more than I understand them so I'm just Mak put that somewhere because I'm not understanding that whole um the whole peer review does the I I don't want to I'm G done oh yeah okay you can keep going I probably could keep going but: definitely don't want I don't want to interrupt if you're own role but that last sentence the board May engage I'm just I'm wondering um Engineers Architects land blah blah blah blah blah uh in analyzing an application to ensure compliance with all relevant laws bylaws and regulations is there anything else that we want to include that it has to be in compliance with that and I think of design standards I think yeah so that's an architectural review and its best practices so that's part of my problem that I'm having is we as Town committees we're coming up with policies and best practices that um our Consultants are not aware of yeah a lot of times because our best practices are done in in these committees you know well as long as they need to be adopted by some Authority you know like because the Committees um don't have authority like so like if it's a storm water kind of thing I think it has to be adopted by DPW for example if it's a zoning then it would have to go to town meeting you know what I mean like it can't be that um those are just Standalone separate regulations I don't think or best practices they need to go to the next level of how they get Incorporated okay but as far as that's what the town engineer told me what the same thing yeah because it's yeah cuz I I want you know we had a presentation from the engineering department on low impact design standards what has done what has what have we done to adopt those you know we've wasted Town staff time we've wasted our time climate action committee is doing all sorts of stuff but if if when we an applicant comes in and they present a storm water Plan and there's no best practices there's no reason for a a rain Garden there's none of that they're not designing because they don't know to design they're not looking at it for our best practices right so the storm water RS I thought you know come through the DPW but I agree like it was a long ago that we were told we needed to update those and we were needed to update some zoning too but then you know there's been staff changes at DPW too or engineering and so forth and so sometimes things have just fallen off and I think storm water expertise doesn't lie you know in the planning Bo then it lies with our Consultants yeah and so the cons our Consultants I I think in this they need to be made aware is what our what our vision is what the town's vision is so when they're reviewing a um storm water plan they will they're looking at it through the lens of you know oh they want more rain Gardens or they want they want more um uh perious um so my question for that would be does the planning board updated its uh rules and Rags or does DPW update the storm water Rags that we have I thought DPW but I I think you know if coming out of the climate action planning committee if there's recommendations then that you know that those recommendations should go to the enging Department with a copy to planning board planning department building department so Town Administrator so somebody make sure that it gets followed up so the low impact design um standard presentation came from the engineering department so board to the planning board but it's in the engineering department which is in the DPW in the Engineering Department is hiring the peer consultants for storm water so that's all in one department but they're not they're not letting their Consultants know to that this is the plan that this is our best practices and it's all in one Department I see but it's not the same consultant every time right so we the applicant chooses the cheapest consultant the applicant or we do the applicant so the like Sean reading with the memory Clinic app shows him we offer a list we offer a list we provide yeah yeah but my my my I'm getting off topic okay yeah all I was getting at is the board is securing the opportunity to hire a professional to analyze whether the the the plan is in compliance and I'm just saying is are are we too restrictive if we're only asking if we're only saying we have to be we want to make sure that we can hire that person to make sure you're in compliance with all relevant laws bylaws and regulations or should there be more there is it is it relevant laws bylaws regulations zoning design standards what else do we want to be able to have the ability to say that you have to be in compliance with these I think the more the better zoning is bylaws right I don't know that's is a bylaw I mean I I don't want riew there's no reason to to create duplicity I just want to make sure because what if like we end up having some best practices but we just haven't had a chance to adopt them into an official B bylaw but we've put all the effort in and it's we just haven't gotten to town meeting I think that's hard I think that's hard we can I don't think we can hold an applicant to to to to you know comply with conversations that are taking place in a planning board you know planning wood meetings I actually felt like the applicant for the gardener school had a a really strong argument that you know we're coming in following year and you know work he's right we're not we haven't follow up with you know the things that we really would like to see that's what triggered triggered my calling was his comments yeah yeah so if if with regard to the comment I made if if the board feels that all relevant laws bylaws and regulations captures everything that we're telling an applicant that they have to be in compliant with then fine I just I wouldn't want a board at some future date to be challenged by an applicant that says well that is not you know I'm not going to pay for that engineer architect because you know they're you're you're now asking me to be you know compliant with something that isn't listed within your site plan approval that was Point good point I mean I don't know I would defer to a lawyer for that one would you say something like in other well it says with all relevant laws and something like that I would like make a note that says should there be more here show it to our lawyer just put a comment in right you know it's like we're going to be here all day yeah right yeah so it's on page six yeah I think Cheyenne if you just put in parenthesis you know anything else to include here you know at the end of that sentence and we'll figure that out later thanks Shen so for me this was this says we're going to establish standards for site plan review as if it's something separate from what we're doing here so it's like I thought like aren't these the standards that we're setting somewhere in here so I just feel like that language but then if you look at it an ecosystem function isn't a standard either so like the language it's the wrong words it's the wrong words do we even need to articulate what the review standards are I think so because it gives us a basis for the decision right and partially I liked that because uh again back to the gardener school they um the Topography of that site is so um steeve that they are and the same thing happened for the the 40b on Randall fa they came in and destroyed like the whole Ecology of that so can I just tell you that I was the witness for the town in the appeal to the hlc and the the their decision came back and they dismissed everything I said about site planning and they took a civil engineers testimony over mine for that so that led me to believe that no matter the way they're making their decisions made no sense MH but coming back to this review standards maybe what this needs to say the planning board will consider the following um I don't know what the following the following in determining compliance or something or rendering a decision or something like that because we want um to consider these things but they aren't standards themselves right so but otherwise these are the things that we do want to consider then we go down further and I think we do have some standards to consider yeah I don't know why H is in this we're a planning department why is an applicant's social Equity diversity public health or Community needs part of we're a planning department that do that doesn't fit with everything else saw that somewhere else too and questioned it so Tim said these standards were borrowed from Lexington so um it was one thing yeah I just wanted to add at the bottom because I had taken this from from NAIC um and it's underd designed guidelines there was a bottom line um consistency of aesthetic character in including bulk and height of surrounding buildings I think they could put somewhere else I just wanted to put that put that it was put under the design guidelines and it doesn't it doesn't make sense to put it there so it should be actually a z um move to under that previous section I don't know that we can really consider ecosystem function either honestly I don't know how we were qualified to determine that think we can I think we have to eliminate ecosystem function I have a note that says remove a a f and which might be a little extreme but I'm I'm with you no I think I added I added a because consideration of site design yeah no I'm sure it's fine I was just like um um we did have there was a y in there before is that jeez we're a little all over the Y that was um SP natural features like cheyen other aspects she trying to keep up with us oh yeah no that's great cuz we took out that other yeah so Cheyenne when you're ready e you can delete D ecosystem function I'm not sure how we do the protection of that surface and groundwater quality but do we leave that maybe that's where we can where we have Consultants do that that's what I was I saw that stain safety like what safety I don't know that doesn't make sense to me because we have circulation safety pedestrian safety safety is too like how does somebody know whether it's too vague very broad yeah so yeah get rid of that what's this potential adverse effects of development who put that in that was taken from um natic also I think that has to do with you know lighting is it too like is the impact of a project on AB budding on neighbors is it um have a detrimental effect so I think here instead of saying avoidance of major we should just say we were going to consider ma topographic changes you know I mean so get rid of M avoidance of major I agree to be consistent and I guess that's what who determines what's like a a a major change like is it greater than a certain percentage and I don't know if I I saw something I don't know if I put it here but it was I think they defined it as is like I don't know more than 15% or I don't know I I don't know the correct well this is just saying we're going to consider topographic change so maybe when we get further down yeah one of my questions was should we have a definitions page and substantial change was one of mine yeah and simple development was another one and minor site plan was another one it's like who determines this so I just wonder if we should have yeah page one be definitions to to Define all this stuff those are just three that I up and there could be plenty more yeah well we could have a definition and some things are subjective though I think sometimes when we look at is a minor site plan approval is it is it a minor Amendment or is it a major amendment that is sometimes becomes you know when that major to you might not be major to you right so when I think of natic and I think you were referring to natic earlier natic is a really diverse Town yeah you know natic has some real significant commercial areas it has some it has a ton of residential areas it has plenty of mixed use areas I mean we we don't have that kind of a town you know they may have to have that kind of definition because that's the very different types of applications that they might see I just don't see Milton ever having like such a variety of applications just we just probably won't so I I mean I creating a list of definitions would be a lot of work and and probably probably not a lot of benefit I don't think I do think that you're right about the major minor in a place like native which has big malls and everything else um this list has some duplication also if we keep going down like open space is addressed twice uh signage is addressed twice utility addressed twice so it seems like this just needs somebody to clean it up I can look at that with Cheyenne and okay go through that yeah all right so you'll do that one great then I pulled all of this in from the design standards from the article one MBTA communities that I spent as you all know I've said spent time on right so uh we would have to change the references to the mcod right so like I said I just brought it in so we'd have to check that kind of reference but these were also looked at by hlc because a draft was sent to them so for something that's you know as of right so I feel like it's a good place to have them as standards we could I can review them again just to see if we want to think about it with respect to something like adus or businesses right which I haven't done so I I'll do that if you'd like for the next round so we don't have to go through them all tonight but you've already seen them all you know before so it's just kind of tailoring them a little bit all right so I'll do that do we talk about the Authority Under number 10 the authority of the board I think that yeah I think that was at the beginning wasn't it yeah because there was highlighted um under C if such power is reserved by the board in its original approval and I think you probably highlighted that Cheryl because we wanted to reserve that right even if we didn't say it in the very beginning right exactly so do under Authority um sorry under c10c where do we go sorry yeah right there sorry I'm not saying 10 page 12 is it yeah just after the paragraph 9 design guidelines I think it was oh there wait yeah it's forly number s 9.22 page 12 design wait those are numbered a little bit different page 12 tell scroll to page 12 I think authority of the board the planning board May reject is that what you're talking about um this is page 12 down the bottom yeah the very bottom of page 12 remember that's that where you are no I wasn't that far yet unless it's just the way it was inserted um it was under it it was titled authority of the board so right there it's numbered differently it's number 22 on this it's right it's okay so under C it had been there if such power is reserved by the board for yes we just wanted to strike that sorry it got bumped down with computer I'm done Edition it's a sign it's definitely my computer died sorry I'm out so okay um so sorry so back up to authority of the board but then design guidelines okay but then there was actually some additional so if we go back up to where under where we have the review standards Cheyenne yeah so yeah right where we just were before um and then scroll down just a little bit more so General development standards so this is where Cheryl you said you were right going to take that piece right okay through all the way through the building site and building standards which would take you to next would be design guidelines that paragraph also we had in the MBTA zoning um so this just reserves the right to do you know guidelines this should be said this should actually say design gu guidelines not standards I typed in there for you sh okay Jim you added the endless hearings oh boy oh boy yes I sure did so my fear is that we can condition something to death or we just make it so expensive that it's not feasible or we just drag it out I'm looking at it as the applicant so I I mean obviously that's not good wording but I just don't know how to um if you guys agree how to put that in there so the applicant doesn't feel they're just getting pushed and pushed and pushed so they eventually just freak out and go 40b yeah it's a good point I think it's something we can ask Town Council about how to phrase yeah don't you think it is it's I I just did this as a placeholder so I didn't and I can relate to that you know and um you know there should be some sort of you know process that is like get do take longer you know it's hard not like two years no no yeah but I mean it's but it's hard to put a fin night we don't want to put ourselves in a situation where we're limiting ourselves right well with a I mean obious we want it to move along as quickly as possible yeah but how long is this document I mean if we if we impose a 12 or 15 page document on somebody and then drag them out for a year I think we're doing something wrong put a timeline of like 6 months on it and then which can be extended if we can't if we're waiting or I think I put something in that kind of addresses like if Co happens and we can't meet we extend or or something to that effect yeah I think this is one to be really careful with because we we could we could subject the town to a position that the town might not want to be in you know what I mean it's just we just have to be careful I understand what you're going with but you know what I what I you know I mean we've heard the stories in the past but I wasn't a member of those boards and we have no idea of what was going on or what was not being done and there may have been justification for some of those prolonged approvals we just don't know you know what I mean I don't agree with them but that they took so long but I think we just have to be careful that we don't handcuff a future board with something that might be one thing to bear in mind is if a board asks for something as a document or consideration and it doesn't happen mhm um that can delay it the other thing is we do have time limits imposed by law and the reason we're able to continue longer than that is that the applicant um is supposed to agree in writing but often times they just agree at the meetings I think um and because they they don't want you know to have an unfavorable action or something or unfavorable decision but um I think where we if we're more clear UPF front and we have those pre-file meeting that should help with the process being shorter you know so we tell them up front that this design this site's complicated we want you to come with think about some Alternatives we want you to you we're putting we're making it clear we want you to think about the trees and the topography we're making it clear up front so then they could come in and have staff conversations and say do you think the board would have an informal with us on this it's much better than I could appreciate all they spend on all the Consultants to get to a full package and then to find that they have to backtrack a lot I can understand why it it's difficult but on the it's also very frustrating we saw like what the memory care facility when they were so locked into a particular solution that you know left little flexibility it it's not the best outcome necessarily either so anyway okay so authority of the board decision so I guess that that first sentence there put a big question mark oh yeah do what you want with it it's just a suggestion and it's a concern I have I agree with you Jim I I just I just don't know how to I don't know how to you know include language that protects the applicant it also protects the town yeah this is where we should be just giving this to a lawyer yeah well it's probably something where we should review the requirements um where this is do you mean to review the requirements you know this is one of the things I don't understand 100% but site plan approval is one that's not in state law somehow whereas special permits are and maybe Cheyenne can clear up my language this because that's what I've heard about site plan approval there's actually um legislation that's been filed different times about making it part of the state law which would set the time frames and it in fact I I probably have it and it probably does State a time frame but um I guess by Statute right site plan approval doesn't have those same um yeah it's not enforcable from what I understand regulations but a special plan special permits deal yeah if the applicant blows us off I don't think we have any recourse I don't think we can deny if they come in here and say you know I'm not doing a traffic study and I'm not doing a whatever study and then we say oh I don't think we can deny them based on that yeah that's the way I understand the law but once again I could be wrong I'm not a lawyer I still think a lawyer should be looking at all we have to have well it has to be based on one of our criteria is what that's what that's what we make a judgment on that or we make a decision on and then it can be appealed but if we have and that's why it's so important to have all of this in there and then it's not it's as it's as specific as we can make it um without being a special permit but yet so we have grounds for what our decision is yeah so that might not be right if they give us all the info I I actually think though Jim this area where it says decision this is something that um should be reviewed by Town Council all the other stuff up prior to that is really much more planning and you know related this particular piece has nothing to do with planning it has to do with you know what's fair what's what's uh what's legal you know what you can do what you can't do I think that's where we should definitely have that's why I think what was in here simply the the decision of the planning board shall be made by a majority vote of the board as constituted and in he we it used to say I.E three affirmative votes what so and that I think could stay but that's all it said before yeah if you want to take if you want to strike all this stuff once again I'm just thinking as an applicant if I come in here and you know I can see why 440 threatened to go 40b and I can see why the memory Clinic threatened to go 40 B because we just push them push them and push but that process actually wasn't very long to be honest the memory Clinic was what over a year it wasn't a very it was not a very long process I don't the amount of material that was included in the application that was I would say I don't think it was a very long process yeah for a significant project like that that's typical I'm not I'm saying don't don't scratch the language I'm saying let let let Town Council look at it and and tell us you know what we should keep and what we shouldn't keep from from a legal standpoint I wouldn't scratch it you know you it yeah whatever yeah it's better to leave even that first sentence and leave it all there and ask for advice you know yeah I mean we didn't even have our peer review consult you know there were things that they couldn't even go through you know until certain things were done that that Sean rear and you know that was a lot of peer review work that needed to be done all the hydrology you mean on the memory Clinic oh yeah it was crazy yeah ridiculous yeah who want to cut my teeth on L of and we also have to have the input the neighborhood you know yeah no and we do a great job of listening to everyone I I love what we do I don't have any regrets I just think that yeah so let's we can get an opinion and maybe there's something there that wouldn't it wouldn't create more problems than right that yeah you know that's yeah my legal e isn't isn't the best no no that's okay so is this a good um point for us to take a break I think so and and then pick up with the limited uh review standards next love it do that sound good cheen can you show us how much more of this document remains you're delete everything I just want to make sure when I concur with Meredith I do it with good reason yes Meredith I think that's a good idea so let me a lot of it can be cut in piec to mine and I'm sorry I did I did want to get to your stuff Maggie [Applause] but whoops CH I'll make a motion to adjourn the meeting okay is there a second wait um just just quickly the items we didn't get to on the agenda was it just the adus just for anybody who's watching and was interested in an item on the agenda is it going to be on the next meeting sign I I wanted to just touch just talk about um and again not for February to meeting um I just wanted to talk about some of the issues that have been coming up with this with the um signage Review Committee problems that I think could be avoided if we amend and Tim kept saying we should amend the our site plan our signage review bylaw so just for a few this is not a priority right now but I think it's something um that we should address um is just talking about that I know there's another um I think there's going to be an application for another gas station wanting to do digital signage so it's and billboards like we don't have any and and it everything that we're putting into our design standards we don't have in the sign the signage wait so do you we do but they only can go by the bylaw so we have them draft something up and we look at no it's we do the Zone we it's our zoning it's based on our zoning but what do we want to get I me we Tim actually has a draft of of that I'll share but I we won't go into that in details so perhaps then I I do think it actually is a little bit time sensitive um because there have been a lot of signs coming I would we ever want to have the chair of the sign Review Committee come and look at the all the work that was done in Milton Village and East Milton by Consultants because if you looked at the signs that Josh was even talking about in in his document tonight they're very different than what the sign so it's so and so Tim drafted something that in 2015 it it goes into detail it it's very specific and I'll I'll get that in Cheyenne um or maybe Julia um you pulled that for me send it out to the board members and let everybody review it because they can only the sign Review Committee can only review and they can only approve or or not approve things that are in our bylaws so it's helpful it would be helpful to them if we gave them if we had something that was um part of our our sign bylaw but so they don't have like discretion really they can't say you know what that's not like the best look we're going for we want this look a little bit but they really don't have they it's like their site plan review it's like they don't have it's like they have it's not in their regulations or the it's where the regulations or there's things that are in there that had never been approved before in Milton that are all of a sudden they have no choice but to approve like neon signs so it's wouldn't we want to get their input like have them put together right quick outline of what they would want and then build on that thing is they do it more than we do I think it's they're not giving advice from what I'm hearing I'm saying should we ask them they would give it if we asked them right it's not like they're not allowed to give advice it's what we would like to see to be allowed in the town and then yeah they okay just think you they respond to that because they used to say no neon signs no certain things that were were never allowed they say no to them and but then they then it gets appealed they go before the select board and we do have it in that the select board can overturn so that's how we get the rebuilt you know digital signs the big the things that we're trying to avoid if possible again yeah so they they just know what not they know what they don't want right they must no they don't even know that really our sign Review Committee doesn't know no because they're just going by the what they're not giving input in design that's why instead of going to select board do you think they should be coming here because we're the ones talking to the consultants for the for like in coming up with when I need Plumbing advice I go to my plumber when I need electrical device i' go to my electrician if I need sign advice I would go to the sign Review Committee and ask them what they think well yeah bring them in and then build on that no you guys look me like I'm crazy okay I guess I don't understand it's all it's all good but so that was just one thing and I just I did want to other one other thing that we we need to do an article on which is very simple and it's on the mapping our zoning map our Milton Village um zoning map and Brook Road that um that overlay zoning was never added to the to the map and that has to be an article to change our zoning map is that be for February so I think we could do that for February Tim has drafted language on that it's in our inbox but that was a um that was in late edition um that was added to our agenda I didn't see the maps though do we have the map was no map so we need do we need the maps to accompany it we'll need the maps shyen correct is that it references the the lot the book and page so if you go on the gis you can find them but I'm pretty sure like the map itself has to be up just like the MBTA you need the we'll need to do a map right so I'll I'll get those for you so I just wanted S I don't want to delay us too long but we have the meeting on December 12th on then December 19th January 6th and January 23rd and special town meeting is February 24th right so I just want us to be realistic about how many meetings we have left for the Adu and the site plan and then for that map right so and if we have um when did we have Garder coming back Garder school they wanted Shan was that the first meeting or the second meeting and I think that might have been the 12th we should confirm um I'll confirm with them and so do we do we know when we need language submitted to the warrant Committee just even for printing are they can they yes so I did ask that was um one of the questions that's what I think if they could have you know if we could get it to um Town Council to start looking it over to make sure there's nothing in there especially with the Adu having them look at that um I think early January all right so we have to really be pretty diligent on the next three meetings to get those zoning articles I guess that's my point right yeah three meetings to to for the three so we're going to do the same process as we did with the site plan review for the Adu bylaw we're all going to sit here and edit it and I'll edit mine a little bit better and we can submit it to them and we could we can amend it even though it's been submitted to the warrant committee they can begin you know looking at it but you know there's things that we can change too it won't it doesn't have to be final draft language has to remain in scope though right yeah yeah so yeah with the intention of a green sheet or just we may even have to add another meeting in January just to if if we are at a um a place but it would be really nice to be able to get these on the February so if I think um I don't know the best way that we want to do you were going to take tackle a section I'm going to tackle two sections and you're doing one Sean the document is getting pretty messy so I don't know how best we want to do it I think maybe a separate document that can just copy and bring it in I'm happy to do my section as a sep SE document I'll send it to Cheyenne Meredith and you guys can and then maybe Cheyenne can do the incorporation of the those section so we can have a little cleaner document to look at I agree okay and do you think it makes sense to try just knock site plan out and then take up Adu yeah yeah I think we should get through it I do yeah all right that's all I'll hold us up for then okay I think he had a motion I'll make a motion is there a second to Second the meeting all in favor e e e