##VIDEO ID:1mPrrskbZ5g## e e e e e e e e e e e e good evening and welcome to the 17th meeting of fiscal year 2025 for the planning board at this time we have a little feedback yeah I think you need to else it's on um Julia's sorry that that's right um at this time I would like to Now call the meeting to order and begin by introducing our staff and the members of the board um if you'd like to start Cheryl Taya secretary Sean fahe member mag guildfield member Jim Davis member and Meredith Hall serving his chair um and now our staff um with us today um we have Julia Julia get from clerk yes Cheyenne is on vacation so we um extend her the best um so we have one set of minutes from December 5th but you have not I did uh have a chance to I did review them and I didn't have edits okay so I know that's why I looked at when I said that jul wonderful to them okay so has everyone else had a chance to review MH okay with that um if I could have a motion to accept the minutes for Thursday December 5th so moved second second all all in favor I I great thank you those are approved well stain I don't think I was there December 5th December 5th Sor I think you you NE neither of you were there yeah was the the fifth you're right I and you don't you're right yeah right so it wasn't there on the yes so you abstain and the rest are and I abstain too you abstain too okay great thank you um so our next um official meeting dates we have our next meeting uh January 6th um and then we have a little break um and our next our regular scheduled meeting is on January 23rd so um which should have some good things on the 6th and the 23rd um the next will be the discussion of budgeting for mapc um Julie if you just wanted to give a little sort of update on Cheyenne's conversation um with MPC and Jos yeah we're going to have a forum and extend the contract we're going to have to dig into the planning board budget which is hasn't been touched in fisal year so we have 50,000 in there that we can dra from and there's still about 1,300 left over um from their contract their existing contract okay great so and we're just waiting right now to hear what that would be and I was I had told Cheyenne that I thought we should probably um extend through March just to make sure that we have time to get our public forums have time to update anything that we need to update on that and you know so the public forum is intended to be the zoning and the guidelines I think we could pres yeah I think Josh was saying he could present both because we as a board haven't really discussed the language of the zoning right which so I was wondering yeah that we should do that it's I think it's it's been a while since he delivered it and I think he he had a memo that he supplied to us at the for the last meeting I think or when he was here for the guidelines that a memo regarding the zoning itself not the guidelines so I'd like to discuss the memo as well yeah um and I don't know if we felt like we needed him here in terms of at some point being able to uh ask him questions about the language of the zoning itself he is scheduled to come on January 6th okay and is that so if we could have a chance to riew um it's I think he's we'll be prepared to discuss both but I think um if folks have time over the holidays um we could you know begin to answer questions nothing has to be finalized on the 6th but um but it might be just a good chance to over is there one that's more important um the guidelines well the guidelines can be adopted by us at any time whereas the zoning you know is a town meeting and if we're thinking May town meeting um it seems like if you want to do a forum which um there's been a lot of process but I think the you know having people have a chance whether it needs to be a forum for that or whether it needs to be a public hearing I'm not certain you know which we think would be the best but uh we need the public hearing anyway the article yeah for the article so if we um if we need if we want to request any revision of Josh I think it's it would be good to focus on the six on the language of the zon and his memo okay just uh to give us time right to to have another round if we need it exactly because I haven't had much time to spend with um the original the language for the zoning so I would like to me too and again this will be the start of a conversation if things come up you know we can and the only thing I liked about the public forum was I felt like when it was at the Art Center there was a pretty good turnout of people of East Milton Square when we have public hearings here you know no one really shows up I don't know what the this is the the tough time of year yeah just right before Christmas whether it's by Zoom or in person I think if we do a forum then you know it's another presentation that's probably similar to the presentation that he's already given um so I think we want would we'd want to be clear about what we would want to learn from The Forum or what how we would use information from The Forum um because we're at the end of their contract if we're going to so let me just say for example Milton Village when we did that we ended up modifying the zoning ourselves after it was submitted by MPC and um and we did the design guidelines after as well um we separated the we broke them out yeah did separately so I I just also the it would need to be clear to the public what design standards are in the zoning versus design guidelines and the guidelines and how they work um so anyway it I I just hate to see us repeat process that we've already gone through because people get frustrated if they feel like they've participated and they've given their feedback and then um it's coming back again so I think we just need to be really clear about where we are in the process and what what we're looking for from it so they don't feel like it's their prior uh input wasn't Tak into consider I don't necessarily have an opinion um I was just sort of wondering is where would we get more participation it could be I think the East Milton residents have requested another form just so they know what the final version is is starting to look like okay so yeah so we'll when Cheyenne gets back we can you know we'll hopefully get a some sort of a cost estimate on that and then we can decide as a board if that's you know appropriate funds okay to spend can we do in person and zoom at the same time yeah we can do that here can we do it down at the uh at the Art Center I'm trying to remember if he set that up I don't know we might have to move it to the Council on Aging because we could do it there I don't think the Milton Arts Center has that um capability but I we can I think physically being at the Art Center draws people it's it's the it's the neighborhood of so yeah anyhow yeah I think there was a good really good turnout on that okay and we can discuss that further too um Meredith do you are uh Julia do you have you know cheyen had sent us an email I'm looking for it now kind of outlining schedule that's required for the zoning articles and I wanted to look at those January dates or talk about those January dates and maybe we can do it J Zing but when was it sent it was back around Thanksgiving I feel like it was a little bit it was before I'll try to up and it just really has to do with um the agenda for those two January meetings I think the reason I was um be quicker for me to just get the print on upstairs okay okay sorry to yeah we can talk um about those keeping with that schedule I think you know we're tracking tonight we're we'll be opening our public hearing you know I think site plan and the map are getting close to being MH um complete and I think we can make some good Headway tonight on Adu um and sort of have that and again this because I just in watching the meeting these aren't final we're waiting for public you know feedback if there's anything that people want to add so even though things have been sent over um I know the site plan approval has just is being um has already been sent over to town County Council just to begin the process of looking through it and the select board you know is voted um to submit those based on our wanting to submit these articles but it doesn't mean it NE it's not in final draft form so excuse me I think the email you're looking for is um November 25th I think I just found it too thanks Jim and so she outlined needing the first draft of documents by the second week of January and then here's Julia okay yes that's 25th perfect and thank you Julia and then the um the final draft by the third week of January so I think uh just in terms of those agendas um Meredith we want wanted to vote some probably at least on the Adu because it's not as far along M the site the site plan by by the 23rd of January then um hlc should they would have closed the public comment period yeah they they said their goal was to have a model bylaw by the 2 also by the second of February so um so maybe the Adu is a good chunk of time on the 23rd cuz you I mean we're pretty much done with the first draft of site plan review right I mean mhm right I mean I'd like to see us see a yeah the Adu after attending well we can talk about that when we get down to yeah yeah let's do that but this is good to have this schedule in front of us and and I think we're tracking to be fine with with getting these in advance and giving the warrant committee the time that they need because I feel like they always get things last minute and things are changed and so um as final as it can be before we before they receive it I think they would appreciate it too okay um so just just one last thing on schedule then so can we find out um when the warrant will open for the May town meeting so if we're thinking about the schedule for the East Milton that we can look at that back that in yep okay thanks yeah I know they've been mentioning some dates but I I don't want to say for sure so okay so and discussion for the uh Adu State Statute questions so there is a very short period of time for public comment on the Adu and anything that we want more information on um I've been listening I listen to the first um session I think others listen to the second session so when we when we discuss Adu we can we can talk about some of these things that are outstanding um but one of the things that I've actually reached out to to Nick on because the question in the regulations is a similar to what happened with the MBTA where the definition of what they put a subway station is expansive of what the language is in the statute so the regulations expands Subway definition where it's more narrowly defined it's more narrow in the um in the actual statute itself so I think any comment that we should have on that we should have we should have I think it written by um Town Council or by you know Kevin Martin so that our um that we are consistent with what our arguments the town's arguments are and and what we're stating so it should be we're not lawyers so I would want anything that we want to say and maybe in general in in other comments too um put together and approved by legal councel yeah I hadn't really thought about the um the you're thinking about where parking space is required or not required yeah it's within that half mile of a subway station which so because when I listened in it said um bu it's um you know an extension of it's just not a Subway it's an extens they're adding on to yeah so that caught my attention um and I'm like where did where is that in any um defined language so I too heard that there was an expansion of a definition um so that would be good to get some clarity on but I think well I think asking Town Council is fine but they can this these two laws I think are different laws in this and these guidelines are different guidelines so what they determined to be triggering a parking space being required or not required I don't think you can equate to the same thing as the MBTA communities which you but I think you could ask Town Council that um I think it's the concept that the that regulations or guidelines are more expansive than the scope of what's in the actual statute itself and I think again that just is something that um I would like to you know I think I think we should comment on um you know they should be more they should be more expansive because the statute's very short so that they're they're going to come up with more detail they have to I mean that's the whole idea about the detail is supposed to be supporting the statute so it's it's it's supposed to be supporting what is in the law not changing not going outside of what the law says but what do you what's your concern then about the what what what's in there relative to the only thing that's triggering of a definition for Subway or Transit has to do with parking space requirement right yes that is what it is that's the only thing here right so then the question is because they include bus stop where you can flag right the whole bus line and whether they and they say the Subway or extension I mean of any place people walk that walk to the the trolley is the best place that people walk to a mode of transportation right now to so to require a parking space in near the trolley I think um it's counterintuitive but um I me I I yeah I don't want to that's I'm I think that's that I think we we just need to be clear about what it is about the those guidelines or regulations that they're developing that we have concern about from a practical point of view right because like for me I had a question like you brais Jim can we put a minimum unit size in I mean that is a question I think should occupancy right Min and whether you can have a limit on the number of occupants per bedroom and you know those to me like are really important things to get answered um both are I I think that's I completely agree yeah so I think the the bigger it's a bigger question than just the Adu so um you know in the mapc um language it says definitions and then you go to subway station and it says any of the stops along the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority Red Line Green Line Orange Line silver line or blue line including any extensions or additions to such lines so my fear is more than just in the Adu um that's that's the only statute that it is I know but uh I'm just wondering is that going to be the new new definition that state agencies are going to be using when it hasn't gone through the whole um you know process of being through the legislature to be changed to change definitions there's a process so I'm just afraid that all of a sudden this language is going to show up somewhere else and maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist maybe um but that is my my bigger fear is we need to make sure that the definitions are the same it doesn't matter if it's being used in an Adu by law or an NBTA bylaw or whatever else bylaw in the future subway station should be legally defined somewhere in by the legislature or by State Statute so I just want to to be consistent so then we don't have any questions down the line but I agree with you to your point too and that was just a a piece of something that I think we should get legal counsel on but um but yeah I think well the questions that are the real the real substantive like we would want to submit comment on to me at least those two like can we put a minimum uh unit size they they gave us a maximum but they didn't give us a minimum and can we put a twers per bedroom occupancy lemonade those are really important yeah I think and then another question that I had had to do with can like we talked about before Meredith if you have a carriage house that is a pre-existing non-conforming and it's 2 feet off and somebody says well I can't do it here so I'm going to tear it down and I'll do a conforming one can we put in something where it's a special permit process for those because we'd like to encourage the conversion of the carriage house instead of the tearing down of the conversion or tearing down of the carriage house so that was a I know on the webinar on uh Monday it was a little unclear how they felt about the pre-existing non-conforming I I felt anyway um so those are that's another important one we have so many um homes that are pre-existing non-conforming and I don't I don't think those should be um ineligible because like right I think what it says in there by definition um I let me look at that definition getting into the discuss right now say that's what we were we're talking about the comments I thought comments but maybe we on the agenda for comments I'm sorry that that's what we were on yeah but I think when we get just seems like we're taking a deep dive into adus if you want to do that now let's let's do it I mean Walter White's here I just was looking at the agenda of item discussion of AD so those are the so those are the type of things that I don't think we need to finalize tonight but my only point I'm putting that on the agenda is that we only have until January 10th they basically have given us 20 days you know the week of Christmas and you know in the week of New Year's to to come up with public comments great for that I know um hoping that that's not intentional but it's um it's a tight time frame so just so we can be getting our thoughts together and be prepared and we can have that as part of our conversation because I think those are all really good um if we any questions to submit we want to do it as a board and run it by Town Council first is what I'm getting yeah I think so um okay and in terms to meet that deadline our next meeting is the 6th right we need to have our comments ready for the 6th and then go to Town Council right after the 6th yeah and then submit them by the 10th so maybe what we should decide to do is have everyone submit their comments to Cheyenne as soon as possible and then she can then forward them to to Town Council and just if there's any questions let's when does Cheyenne do back Julia from her vacation uh Christmas Eve so she'll be back after Christmas after Christmas so can just can I just mention this one last thing that was we're going to go on I know but because it was on my mind the definition of principal dwelling we might want to look at and see if we want to comment on because it does say regardless of whether it conforms to zoning including use requirements dimensional requirements such as setbacks ball kite Etc so um right now they're saying that um those are those are automatic and so I guess our we should think about whether what the implications of that might be like if we have a place where like I said most of ours are pre-existing non-conforming um I think that's where we can we can address an accessory a detached structure and I have some actually some language because we have that as accessory structure is we don't have that defined yet and in another area um I found some language in another Adu that that sort of says that um because that the way I'm interpreting it is they're saying it's allowed for a um within a non-conforming structure which would make sense and an addition of that original that non-conforming structure but could put not the detached because that's where we're going to run into issues in Milton because we've got a lot of non-conforming where we have garages that sit right on the property line and two garages that sit right next to each other literally um so so guess when we get into it and Walter's here just smiling because he knows you know well and the other thing about it is if you have pre-existing non-conforming you and you do an addition that's going to have the Adu shouldn't that I think right now that that addition is required to meet the zoning but so is that is anything in this put um contrary to that it's something I just want to look at and understand I'm interpreting it to mostly be within you know a non-conform structure which should be allowed I think that seems reasonable okay and the other question I had is under um the definitions where it says single family residential dwelling and again I'm looking at the MC they have it defined so under single family residential dwelling it says a structure on a lot containing not more than one dwelling unit you say mapc or hlc I mean hlc you mean yeah know I think it was I WR on MC I think they had a a draft that they were um looking at is it say 76 CMR at the top 760 CMR 71 protected use accessory dwelling units well maybe you got it from mapc but I think it's issued but okay so a single family dwelling it says not more than one dwelling unit so does it are we so we are allowed to limit it one okay so this is exclude it excludes two families no yeah so that's well the well here's that I read like a principal dwelling unit is includes let's go back and find it I read it as any residential parcel can add an Adu right mhm I'm not a lawyer but that's the way I took it that's the way I read it too and I'm trying to find where that is two family and and you want to do an Adu you can yeah so if you have a two family each unit can do a no that's where we can limit we can limit it by lot okay parcel the residential Zone okay so that's what that single family residential dwelling is a structure on a lot containing not more more than one dwelling unit that yeah that just identifies what a single family residential dwelling is but a dwelling unit is um a single housing unit providing complete independent living facilities so are we sure that if you have a two family only one edu can be put on it let's you know what let's pause and let's pause and save this convers so we can move into the ad discussion um but that was my for Town Council very good that's good yes or the building department and the and yes um okay so so we realize if we do want to get our comments we just have a very brief time to to do that um you can send them to me and I can put them we can put them yeah even if we have them right you can send them to Julia and Julia can be starting to put those together um so the next moving to number three is Citizens speak um if there's anyone from the public who would like to speak on anything that is not on the agenda um please feel free or um you will have time at on the agenda item to speak um is there anyone on Zoom that you're seeing any hands up I there's people on Zoom but no but not no hands are raised to speak to Citizens speak okay great so now um it is past 7:05 so we can open our public hearing for our warrant articles um we have our site plan approval bylaw discussion zoning map Amendment discussion and our Adu discussion um and we have with us tonight um Walter White our building inspector and anyone else from the public who would like to to speak on these items um does anyone have a preference on where where we start um should we just move quickly um with our site plan approval bylaw um is there any further changes or comments to what we have currently been working with on that maybe we can move through those quick Copy that we have that can be circulated or did I miss that or on the site plan approval folder this one is in the uh folder pH folder um yes I did Mr here map Amendment I'm sure this is pretty good i' just like to print this and read it I didn't get a chance to but I mean okay I don't want to drag conversation have questions comments I we what wasting okay we've got it pulled up here so that's great can you enlarge that this is from the folder let me open that okay I've got it open do you think we should tackle Adu first seeing as he sitting there yeah we can and thenum and then go back to the other all right that's fine with me if should we move to the do the Adu first cuz I know you had something but it's small like I'm not sure if it's small okay nothing we do here is small all right let's do you know what it is sort of nice to tackle ad while we're fresh yeah and can can walk through that sorry Julia can you pull that up and we can begin our discussion but if Walter if you want to join join us here any you know comments that we make or you can sort of hear where we're going on discussion was there anything in general that you would like to mention um in advance or would you like to sort of listen and comment as from your experience listen and comment okay okay great and anyone else who has any comments from the audience I know Marian you've been very experienced with different um the temporary apartment bylaw and so um when the time comes if you would like to speak to that all right so let's pull that up um so just I think one thing that um Meredith we mentioned a couple of things but I'm not sure anybody who's watching is aware that these um draft regulations are out and that um webinars were held this week and last week and those are on hlc's website so if anybody wants to look into that because um it does uh control what we can do in in a bylaw some people who might wonder why we do or don't propose certain things in the bylaw should be aware that there's a lot coming out of hlc which is empowered by the legisl legislature to do it right I just want to set that framework yeah and we're limited yeah many respects okay so um our last discussion I think we had moved through the purpose and intent and we were we were sort of good with um with that does any one have any changes to the purpose and intent so we're going to start at the beginning because at the beginning it says about um removing language for the um is that the temporary apartment yes we could actually back up on that CU I so we talked about and even sean said that he wanted some time to think about it and I sort of was thinking about it that I'm not sure if we want to get rid of the language for the temporary apartment I was sort of thinking that that this this new bylaw is sort of like the like a an overlay zoning bylaw so it comes and you just kind of plop it over your existing so if we kept the temporary apartment bylaw in place for those people who still want it and for the reasons that you mentioned last week it's still there and if anything should ever happen to an Adu bylaw if it goes away if it gets changed then we as a town we're not starting all over from scratch so we have something in place that we're used to you know it's my understanding that um nobody's ever been denied a temporary apartment uh permit um yeah it is a little bit onor um you know you do have to apply for it every few years and sometimes you forget and um and but and so maybe we need to make the temporary apartment bylaw a little bit better um you know as it was we tried to do a couple years ago but I don't think we should get rid of it I think we should keep it one of the things that was interesting and I listened to the first session um and I want to go back and hear the second session but that they did hlc did say that towns could keep their existing Adu whatever um they whatever program or or whatever um zoning that they already had in place they would be allowed to they have to do this by right any any homeowner can do this but but if somebody wanted to continue with something such as the temporary apartment bylaw Artic or um zoning that they that they would be allowed to do that so that was a question I think that I had is are we even allowed to do that and they hlc said in that first session um that we that we were able to the other thing that I was thinking about in the part of the regulations is that we have to be accountable for any new Adu we actually have to do an annual report reporting how many adus have been created during that year so whatever we do decide it's you know the building department if you know if they we can't just let them all of a sudden become an Adu without having any sort of process through building department because then we won't have those we won't have an actual account of what the Adu is and if it is in compliance um with our new Adu bylaw so I just was thinking just from a number standpoint and the other thing um in counting this these adus will count towards the sh against our Shi so when we're accounting for those where the temporary apartment bylaws do the temporary Apartments do not count towards Shi so that is something as we're trying to get towards our 10% affordable housing these are not going to be counted as affordable even though they'll be less expensive by by the size but um but it will actually um in Adu will actually um and we'll have to report those numbers will count against our Shi so just for an accountability purpose that might be something that we want to consider Maran do you want to come and um share your thoughts too and nothing's we don't have to decide this tonight but it's just a quick just a comment on retaining the temporary apartment bylaw however you choose to do it um there are a lot of conditions and restrictions in that bylaw that may not you may not really want to continue so you may want to revise it there's a difference um there are some people who have these apartments who only want them this way so they only want a temporary apartment they don't want a permanent two family uh characterization of their home it may affect um may affect their taxes for example or something like that but also because that it just exactly suits what they want to do so they want to have a temporary apartment um for a relative but maybe it could be for a close friend I don't know but for a limited period of time they they then this will then it will always have to be temporary so you have to have some means for coming back and reapplying I don't think you can avoid that if you're going to call it a temporary apartment but while people do forget sometimes it's not that onerous they come back they always seem to get them approved there never seems to be a problem the reason it has to do with the value and also the fact that many people might not really want to have an accessory apartment we're not sure how many people will really want to have a tenant in their home and Adu is a very particular type of tenant and the arrangements are particular to each family so I'm not sure um we did you did discuss you know modifications of the language Alex white side was still here and um there were some modifications suggested and I probably have them in my notes somewhere they weren't major but they you know one of them was you could have your permit renewed just by doing certain things with the building department I don't know if that I don't think you lose the temporary status by doing that might be might be a good idea might not be necessary um uh so my first thought when you when I knew you were going over this is I thought why not just write the temporary apartment into the ad but I don't really think you can do that because from what you're saying adus will have a particular effect they'll be countable towards the Shi there's all kinds of restrictions um or restrictions on limiting the adus um so I think you have to keep it as a separate bylaw I agree with that if that's the way you're thinking you're you're trending and if you don't have time to do anything and it works in terms of what you're writing for the regular adus I I recommend that you do leave it as is for now and then work on whether you want to modify the language over time don't try you know if you don't have time to do everything you don't have a whole lot of time to try to draft this so I just I I I hadn't really thought about it that way and but quite a few people that I've worked with on these permits have contacted me some of them would be very interested in applying for their units to be adus some of them don't care and don't want them to be so I was surprised by that a little bit but then when I thought about it it makes sense uh so those are my comments I I um I view these as distinctly different M temporary apartment by law I said this in the last meeting although we didn't get into it at length I've witnessed it amongst my neighborhood and some of my friends function really well for the intended purpose of an apartment of a temporary apartment by law and in in the cases that I've witnessed it's been for um parents that are at a stage of life where they can't necessarily live on their own but they really don't want to be in a in a a living facility it's worked it's worked terrific um and and I think we're going to really muddy the waters if we try to take a temporary apartment bylaw and the benefits of it and weave it into an Adu I think we're going to create a tremendous amount of challenge in terms of doing that if there's if there's something that's not correct and how we like that how the temporary apartment bylaw is written right now we should consider amending it I think amending it now will be a lot easier than than the amendment that we were trying to do before there was an Adu because there was an awful lot of discussion about you know amending the Adu and there was there was some initiative to try to make the temp temporary apartment bylaw something different than what it was because of the desire to have an Adu right you you probably recall that there was at least not that long ago so that's no longer an issue there's going to be an Adu by right by right so um I think the the you know the challenge with updating the temporary temporary pment bylaw is is no longer the challenge like it had have been previously but you know I like Maran think that there's an awful lot of people that want to modify their home for the purpose of a temporary Department bylaw but not make it a modification that aligns with what an Adu is I I have I definitely have questions on the Adu but I think we we should um leave them separate and um you know I do think it actually affords someone who might have a temporary apartment that's not a legal temporary apartment now an opportunity to make that temporary apartment which really probably was never really going to be a temporary apartment now they have an opportunity to make it a legal Adu and I think for the town it gives us a chance to clean up some um like some of the language in here that we we have right now it reads um encourage I think uh a not a uh encourage a a unit that's not permanent it should require a unit that's not permitted I'm I don't think this should be any um you know I don't think there should be any flexibility there if you have a unit that's not permitted legally now it has to become legally permitted and you have an option you could either make it IL legally permitted a temporary apartment bylaw you could comply with that or you could comply with the Adu but you can't have an illegal unit so I just have you know one other comment um because there are three there are two sections in our bylaw for apartments the other one is an as of right um caretaker apartment in an accessory building it's an old part of the bylaw it may be original to 1938 I'm not sure um very not used much at all anymore but it has been used a few times recently and it's as a right but you have to be um somebody who works on the premises in a capacity that's related to the residential use so that actually relates for example to um you know a nanny a nanny apartment um but in the old days it would probably have been you know the stable person or whatever you know the grounds keeper maybe or something like that again that's a pretty unique provision I'm not really sure you need to do anything with it right now it's not often used but there are situations where somebody might choose to use that and again it's it has to be limited and really I don't know I think it's varied how how it's been handled by the building department but at the at very least really the building department should require an affidavit from the building um permit applicant saying this will be used in this way so that then if it's a violation you have an affidavit to refer back to so that's my only other comment I don't know what section that is but it's in there and you can find it um and so you know you know in one way I thought oh we'll just do they'll do an we'll do adus and all this will go away but I can see you know over the years I've come to see the value of that and I certainly see the value of the temporary apartment P right and it honestly and does take some extra time you have to go to the board of appeals um but it's not a controversial process as a almost never has there been a problem when there has been one a little bit of a problem it gets ironed out and it's usually because a neighbor has another issue that they want to resolve that's what happens when you have an application to the board of appeals but it it gets worked out M so so I just found the section it's section 275 -3.2 under a um it's number six ex I think this is what you're referring to accessory use shall not include dwellings except there may be constructed as part of a garage or stable family living quarters for and to be occupied only by an employee or the owner or occupant of the dwelling to which such garage stable is an accessory use provided however that such employee is of the typical custom sily incident to the said use of dwelling that is it okay right okay that's the end of my comments oh good I'll sit and listen but yeah so it's in there it's that's if if we could on that particular topic what Maran offered and since we have Walter here and thank you Walter for joining us tonight can we ask Walter if he has a comment on what Maran suggested I would say you know keep the keep the temporary apartment just leave it the way it is unless until someone from hlc tells you that it's edu B nullifies the temporary apartment um you know anybody can build an Adu and then have the option of decommissioning it down the road whenever they don't want to have it for whatever reason and the same with the the the the other the one you just mentioned it that was in that goes back to when people had chauffers and domestic help and they lived in the barn or the show and the the carriage house there's plenty of them around town that were built like in the 1800s and you could just leave that there it's it's it's not you could I suppose you could almost eliminated it because it's not practical today because you know people don't have not many people have chauffers and you know domestic help and stuff like that um that really need that yeah but I wouldn't I would just leave that there leave the other the temporary Apartments there so to to to be clear the Adu law now has adus as long as they meet the definition and the requirements in the statute and in the regulations they're protected use like a do Amendment use so when an application comes into the building department it it can't be subject to special permit or like the temporary apartment is so it's going to have to be very clear that it's reviewed against the protected use first that's what the the law says I don't I'm not getting what are all right you said we'll keep it as a temporary apartment there um someone wants a temporary apartment they can apply for a temporary apartment but somebody might apply for something and not know whether to call it a temporary apartment or an Adu given how difficult are zoning bylaw is or they might not know about this caretaker provision and I guess the the default for the building department is going to have to be the protected use first and if it meets the protected use then it gets approved well I mean we'd ask them what they were intending whether they wanted an Adu or they wanted a temporary apartment or they wanted a a chauffeur's apartment that doesn't sound difficult right no I mean it wouldn't we wouldn't be not I mean we obviously have to allow them by right now um well no you don't have to allow the temporary Apartments those are only I'm talking about the Adu so I don't I don't I don't see that as a problem I guess that's what I'm saying Marian did you want to come say something to that what are you stay at the you can stay up here yeah I'm not disagreeing with anything anyone said um just a point that just to me because you were listening to your previous discussion so here's what here's the unique use perhaps for the um employee Department you have an accessory building you have a stable or what was a stable a carriage house one of these beautiful places states with a big house it's too close to the lot line so it's not pre-existing non-conforming I believe from what you're saying in your discussion that possibly an Adu could not be put into that pre-existing non conforming accessory building because it's too close to the lot line but the temporary but the employee Department could be and if that's the use they're looking for that someone is looking for it's a narrow use it would be useful to keep it that's all I'm saying now maybe as a planning board you don't want to do that you don't want you know don't want these Carriage Houses um allowed for that use when they're non-conforming that's something you have to think about but it would be a difference between the way the Adu would apply and the way this this use would apply so so still say good idea and I think we would try to like to for th that you know for those historic structures Carriage Houses and um barns that are beautiful we want to see those maintained and so we would like to find a way the question that we would maybe even both for a temporary apartment but and an Adu is to allow that by special permit in certain circumstances and I think we would have to get there and sort of Define actually what time at what conditions what occasions we would want to see it not just put you know send it everything to you know everything that has a garage on the lot line we don't want the zba to have to deal with every you know you know everyone who has a a non-conforming structure if it's not you know something that we would find um significant so we would have to maybe ask Town Council and ask hlc what language would be appropriate for that yeah certainly just as a comment anything you can do to promote Preserve in interesting historic structures that have architectural value would be great it's just sometimes tricky writing that into vas but it really would be great because we do have a number of those in Milton we do you hate to see them go away so is there on that um the the stable one there's not a date that the age of the stable or the house has to be is there no but we could if we wanted create that language where we could say anything older than 75 years would Trigger or would allow that well there are some I think that are more recent that have been um true yeah you know preserved I I I would think or um not that they were preserved but maybe that they were original yeah they original and then rehabbed or I don't and we can talk about that yeah I think when we get to that point in the language try to trying to work out something that would be reasonable to the to the zba um but somehow get what we want achieved um and not just sent everything so if you wanted to keep the temporary apartment for now um if you go to the the doc back to the document um the um you still need to strike the um portion which is what page you on Sher uh the very beginning first R our first the first but if we go if you look there's two things that are that are suggested to be stricken only one of them is the temporary apartment and it the number um 3.2 six is a definition of accessory use not including a dwelling so that cannot be um so that that has has to be stricken because that's contrary to the um definition of the Adu so if you go back to that so yeah I'm you very beginning it says the motion is at the very top um yeah by stri so you what you don't do you you you're only going to strike section 3.2 subsection a paragraph 6 because that's the definition you're and then you're going to delete the part that says and section 3.1 I because that's the temporary apartment I have a question if we're if we're going to leave everything as is why would we be striking anything well you can't have a country you can't say keep in our zoning that says that an accessory use in can't include a dwelling when an Adu is an accessory use well we going to call it a temporary apartment the temporary apartment's covered elsewhere that's so that's separate okay so if you don't want to strike the temporary apartment then you get rid of the words after the parenthetical six you get delete the words and section 3.1 I so it's just delete section 3.2 subsection a paragraph 6 which is what Tim had identified needed to be done which I um agree with because if you go to it which I'm reading right now if I go to that paragraph section I'm on the the zoning code online it's 3.2 six which we've got here it says accessory use shall not include dwellings except that there may be constructed as part of a garage or stable right so it's that we want to keep that too so we don't want to strike you can't you gotta at least strike shall not include dwellings because doesn't accept well if you if we don't do this I don't know we should ask Town Council because we have let's clarification from Town Council because that that so I would say Julia here put a a note or I can actually if it's all sharing the same document I'll just add here's what I'm going to do I'm going to get rid of this you see is it happening up here what I'm doing yep all right and then what I'm going to do is add a note to Cas see Town Council yeah cuz that paragraph six is what we were just mentioned you do that big font on purpose good call the reason to do it as an accept as two accepts is that the Milton zoning B Still Remains a bylaw where we're single family residential Zone zoning is what we have but there are exceptions and the adus is now going to become an exception to that and so I mean but Town Council will give you the best advice and what the language should be and I didn't even see what you had written before so I apologize I haven't reviewed it so that's okay this is just the um you know when you put these striking right it you have to look at what it's what the what the language is which is you know generally was the temporary apartment was one of it but the second part or the first part of this was the was in the definition section of an accessory use right ands need to be consistent with the changes in the zoning yeah your right to be going back and looking at them yeah so yeah so that's where Town Council I think has to to advise right and and then this would be a new section the accessory dwelling unit section so if you keep scrolling down and inserting the following yeah actually yeah scroll down way no no just going to number two yeah we're not thatting the following just yeah right there section right there section accessory delling and just scroll a little bit further down right there um you know if you look at that as compared to the law again under purpose in what we've been provided is to encourage the production of accessory dwelling units so it's I don't know again if we need to make the purpose consistent with what hlc has put out so that's another question I have for Town Council yeah because that's what I um I mean I thought number one was an obvious statement of fact so I didn't necessarily think that added anything um and I kind of thought that number five should should be number one so the purpose of the subsection is to help the town meet its housing needs without detracting from its historic character and existing patterns of development so I feel like that gets lost at number five and isn't that what we keep we keep talking about is we want to meet our housing needs without detracting so I think that should be number one and maybe the numbering doesn't matter but I think anything in number one takes priority it's a good point I I I mean I think they all could just be bullet points because I don't really think that they're I don't see them as having Priority One over the other myself for me it was more of a formatting that we just want to be consistent with um lower case versus uppercase um and then um the grammar in eight um we want to be consistent where I would say instead of providing provide to be grammatically consistent and and six yeah all right so you were if we're saying encourage increase allow eight should be provide and then you want five move to the top um just leave it for now I think otherwise it's going to that's like a for thing I think you said I'm sorry I just did the capitalization what would you say the capitalization um no it was eight was just provide eight provide okay and Julia did that okay so also on eight I had just a question about financially maintaining their single family home you know I thought financial hardship doesn't qualify for zoning relief you know why would we include Financial in this well this isn't you're not doing a variance you're doing an no yeah but I guess do we write zoning based on financial hardship I guess would be my question there I don't know well who's going to arbitrate that too take the word yeah it's but it's a goal it's a purpose it's just one of okay legislation but I mean it's up to the Plenty but honestly I don't yeah I think it's okay there are people that it would help them to be able to stay in their home and okay um can we go back to S for a minute and ask Walter what his uh I've already expressed my um number seven sorry um Sean I've already expressed my point of view on this Walter I'm curious to know what yours is the way it's written right now it says encourage the permitting of properties that over time were converted to Temporary Apartments without approval I I'm just I don't think encourage is the right word I think require is is the appropriate word you know they're required right now violation yeah I mean if they if they're discovered they're in violation yeah so we would tell them to either apply for a permit or take them out yeah yeah so we should just use the word require change en courage to require well the the thing is we're now we're not removing the temporary apartment piece of it so um this is without approval though you're referring to without approval I'm just wondering what the why this is related to something which doesn't apply to adus right because adus are something now which somebody would apply for and this is something that exists that's not really an Adu it's a temporary apartment it would be illeg a tempor so I was going to say so instead of calling it a temporary apart um without approval just say an illegal dwelling or an illegal well does say we created without proper permits well I think you could say a dwelling unit then at that point because I it just seems like you don't want to mix up that the temporary apartment has a specific place I see you're saying it could be yeah so it should be a dwelling it should be a converted to a well time we converted to accessory dwelling units I mean because temporary Apartments is something different in the I agree I agree with that so it should we should take out the language temporary apartment and put accessory dwelling but any anytime something comes to the building Department's attention that was done without permits they're required to either remove it or get permits so anytime a bootleg apartment comes across the screen they have to remove it because they're not allowed they have app for temporary apartment permit or something or whatever but they can't now all of a sudden say oh it's an Adu go away yeah I wonder if you should not have every every Adu is going to require a building permit when you necessarily if somebody they have to have a separate entrance and they have to they have they can't be over 900 sare ft or half of the building depending whichever is less so there are definitely requirements there and there are building code requirements and so everyone's going to have to have a building permit there's no other way we can track them so you know when you're talking about trying you know providing a listing at the end of the year of how many adus they're going to have to have a building permit but if you have somebody who has a temporary apartment that requires building let's just say it expired it doesn't require any change physically what triggers the building um categorized as an Adu they have to apply for building permit for ad they don't have to make any other changes necessarily maybe maybe they have to apply for a use permit but why is it a building permit I hold on hold on hold on I didn't get your question Cheryl I'm just thinking um if you're not changing something physically that requires the building permit like because it let's just say it has the temporary apartment in it that was legally permitted that let's you know how it is now somebody has to take it out right they only have to take out a part of it right so but you're talking about a temporary apartment that was legally permitted with a building permit which is a requirement and they let it expire and they can just get it renewed but if some but the other they can get it renewed but let's say like right now in the temporary apartment the family member that Sean's contemplating pass es now the the temporary apartment bylaw requires that unit to be taken out and in practicality my understanding is the way that's been enforced is just to remove the stove or maybe the kitchen and but then the rest of the unit has to get absorbed into the house before but let's say somebody now wants to come in and make an Adu where they don't need that temporary apartment anymore right they don't really need to change Construction but I'd take I would require a building permit right it's not I think that they do need to change construction because what if they're renting to somebody who's a smoker and they burn their half of the house down and there's no fire separation and there's no detectors there's no legitimate second means of egress you got to have a building permit to do an ad the use of the building permit is to review the use and the structure to make sure that it's compliant with the Adu requirements you might conclude after the review that no changes are required and you issue the building permit so it doesn't necessarily mean there's construction but it does mean that there's a review by the building department CU who else is going to be responsible for this if it's as a right it's the building department that's going to do the review right is that what an Adu is that how supp that's the way I read it so then I I don't know that this is belongs at all number seven yeah I would leave it out somehow it just I don't know that was my feeling with my comment okay so great so delete number seven I'd say the whole paragraph the yes the sentence yeah yeah because we talk about later about building code regulations can I ask you whether you have site I'm just thinking about what everything I just said do you have site plan review in here somewhere yeah okay so site plan review is going to be by the planning board well we were only I don't know how you wrote it but we we haven't we did put it in the site plan approval by law that adus are subject to it but I don't think we've put it in here specifically so that's a question Maran if it's in a new site plan approval section which lists everything that is subject to it but it might have missed something where somewhere else it's subject to it as well but we list the business like it's in there now right with multif family Etc so do we also need to include it in here if it's listed in the site plan approval section no but um I just think you should think about whether every Adu needs site plan approval whether only certain Adu proposals require it maybe that's too complic at and maybe it a fou of what if it's in the existing building it probably doesn't but if it requires and this is the other thing is the state is saying that if it your your single families aren't subject to these requirements then you need to think hard about whether you make the Adu subject to them and we currently don't require site plane review for any single family right so or two family right well if you don't if you don't want to create a separate process for the planning board were to get involved with because you already have the building department that has to review these applications then you need to identify criteria in the Adu bylaw that you think are important that relate to issues that you might otherwise look at and I don't mean to get overly complicated here but no parking I mean I know you've already talked about that and it's not an easy thing to address but there there are some issues that you might want to put in screening of criteria um just for the that the building department needs to determine that X is so Y is so Z is so that and I don't know whether that means is does there have to be one parking space for an Adu apartment um does there have to be whatever else you could think of that you might need to require yeah we're restricted with that language with the regulations yeah the regulations say that you can't require more than one parking space and you cannot require any if you're within a half mile of Transit what we were talking about earlier is what the definition of the transit is oh I see because it includes um a flag bus station you know bus stop so if you can flag a bus and it's the entire route so that would make Route 138 it would make so Nick Brook Road Nick Milano is actually going to work on a map with all the bus half mile of all the the town doesn't have to change his parking restrictions no I understand the problem correct I have that in how about that but um while Walter's here have you reviewed this and what in Your Capacity what would you like to see what I like to see because that's who has to it's going to end up in your department right so what what can we do or should do to make your life easier well I've kind of looked it over and I've looked over the guidelines a little bit um so in getting back to what you're talking about I was my reading of it was that they said you couldn't do site plan review if you don't require it and if you don't and we don't require site plan review now for a single family so yeah that's question that's one of our questions because in the webinar like we said that you can do site plan approval and then they say well just think about the fact that if you don't require something for your single families so it seems like they didn't necessarily prohibit it entirely I think because they say you can do it law said I thought the law um ruled it out you can definitely include it the question then becomes if you don't include it if you don't require it for single families then you can't make it unreasonably restrictive such that it would prohibit it from being permitted right and those are all subjective decisions so do you really want want to be in the position of having to make all those subjective decisions um especially when you've got a you know a Carriage House conversion or something and you've got um some adamant opposition in the neighborhood and you've got the room full of neighbors who want to have something to say about it um in in those cases in the conversion cases it would make more sense to me um you do you say you're converting a garage that's on the lot line as a garage it's a necessary use it's a storage use an S use in the building code you're converting it to a a residential use an R use in the building code so it's a change of use so that requires a at least a finding if it's too close to the lot line now you're creating you've got a change of use and you've got something that's too close to the lot line so that requires a variance okay so it automatically would trigger so that would automatically trigger a denial letter and a trip to the zoning board and the zoning board can make the decisions based on the Criterion they have which are for a variance which is a hardship in the soil shape of topography of the lot I think we could also write into language that we that they're required to conform with with current zoning um and that if they don't have the proper setback but they could still go for a variant you can't deny that right but I think we could maybe specify in what circumstances I wouldn't go there yeah I mean it gets complicated but I just don't want to put too much of an undo burden on the zba right or the building department or the building department yeah you're not putting the burden the state's putting the burden right you know this is all coming down you almost feel like throwing up your hands you know but I I realize you should try to write some good Provisions in if can because every town is trying to do that they really are but the one thing I'd say about the variance you can't take away a right someone's right to seek a variance right right you can't put in the zoning that you can't seek a variance that's just not you could lessen the standard you could allow it for historic structures by special permit there's a big difference between special permit standard and variance so that's the only thing you could think about that's what we were talking about earlier is to say can we do something where it's a historic now I'm not sure how this is written but if it's a historic accessory structure then it could be um approved by special permit so it wouldn't require going for the variance to well but then what's what's the definition of a historic is it something that's on the mass historic register that's that's what we did I know it needs a definition so with the Demolition delay by lot we we used a date anything older than 75 years triggers that but that and that's only for evaluation that can be a structure that's not historic you know that's up to the historic commission to determine whether or not there a historic is a historic fabric there it could have been altered it could have been and that's only for the exterior it's got nothing to do with the Interior right so that that's not going to there are other towns that have much more stringent historic bylaws and ordinances ours isn't one of them so if we think that through a little bit if somebody said I want to take down a a structure an accessory structure let's say it's a carrot house because I want to put an Adu in it and that carot house doesn't meet the zoning um then they would automatically be triggered to go to the historical commission right because why because it's aure it's more than 75 years old yeah they would they'd be referral to the historic commission they would meet and look at it and make a decision based on the structure in the in a history of the structure whether or not they felt it was histo of historic significance and worth saving and then they could delay for two years and then there's a twoyear delay right but I guess my thought is if that if at that point the historical commission has deemed it to be historic have had of having historic value that could be the trigger point to say that you could do the Adu in it without um having to go for a variance the only problem that is yeah and for the amount of for the amount of cases that is going to are going to involve that minuscule yeah so would we ever have you go through and write an Adu bylaw me Bullet of one page yeah to make it easier you know um because you're the one living it right you know and and that's what I've come to learn is the person who's living with um a docment is the one that we want to you know listen to but you also the other thing is to anticipate and view what put in a process by which neighbors have an opportunity to um in this case it's fair limited but there might be some opportunity which the building department doesn't have a a process for or a mechanism to trigger otherwise it's just them reviewing it so we have to decide what given the law which is very limited here what we can have some process for but we can have some but if someone wants to build something that conforms to the dimensional setbacks in the Bulan area of the building they're allowed to build it by right it's the same thing if you if you put an Adu now in within the uh setbacks of the principal structure there's no review other than the building permit review other than to make sure it's less than 900 sare ft or half the area of the house has at least one uh separate entrance and maximum one parking space and no and then you have to check the te and that is just the silliest thing I've ever heard of is no parking everyone has a car they may take the tea but they have a car so the car is going to sit on the street well there's there is some data which is showing that younger Generations can't afford housing and cars that everything expensing but are we going to that's why they're living in their parents' homes oh right but and their car is on the street not necessary dat we going to design our bylaw yeah the problem with it is that there's a supposition that if you live within a half mile of whatever Transit you're traveling on the transa job and that is an incorrect supposition because because you know I mean I live on you know Windsor Road my wife has always worked in the Longwood Medical area most of her career she's never taken the train yeah cuz to get to the Longwood Medical area from that part of town you have to take the trolley to Ashmont to the red line to Park Street then get on the green line and head down to the uh to down Longwood yeah and versus in a car it's 30 minutes down the Jamaica way on the worst day well to for you for your Approach at this point yeah maybe you can't provide for this unique situation that we're talking about which is a valuable historic structure that you know it doesn't qualify to have an Adu in it the only way that it could qualify to place an apartment there would be with a variance be a use variance and a setback variance and but under the right sit under the right circumstances with the right support and so on and so forth that type of worthy historic structure might very well in the end get support from the board of appeals right um and maybe in the future you could write something into your bylaw that would help with that but I think it's going to be hard for you to address at this point yeah yeah and and you know there are I I don't know how many of those there are but I don't think there are that many I think you've got a lot more garages sitting on lot lines that people are going to look to they'll be the first place they look to to do an Adu if in fact that's what they want to do y uh and they'll want to expand the garage a little bit they'll want to you know expand up to to the 900 square fet and then they're going to be expanding into the lot lines so that you can't do that that requires a variance um yeah I you know I would just leave it at that just say that triggered one thing I would say too is that our existing Zoning for a single family um doesn't have um a lot coverage requirement it it says all these things in these residential districts and then later it says that single families are exempt from it and so I mean one way to think about it is you know to amend the rest of the zoning code to say you know and put a lot coverage so that's been my biggest beef for all these years is I do think we need that because we have huge houses everyone's building Max of houses on these little Lots right and I and I think that we should have there is a lot of coverage requirement if you have an accessory structure in the SE Zone but not a not normally yes that's you have a small lot and build a really quite large house I mean that you're looking at the the the subdivision that was built off of pleasant and you have some very large homes on some very small lots and and there's not much that can be done about that in your review so you know the um the one thing we wanted in the site plan review um which I I again I don't know that will fly on adus because it's not in the single families is to put a few more criteria for for um how you approach a site and maybe in lock coverage um maybe that is something that we can cover because then if it's required in the single families it can be required in the Adu and you know maybe we could do the same thing Maran are you familiar with or Walter in um zoning having a maximum number of occupants per bedroom no no okay it's very typical in could could may be in the health code yeah could be in the health code minimum square footage for per individual yeah it's very common in for in the leasing industry um it was consistent in leases where a two person per bedroom occupancy yeah well that may be the landlord's preference we have a bylaw that says you can't have more than three unrelated persons or something like that and it's not really enforcable as far as I can tell from the feedback from Town Council that we've received over the last few years well three unrelated people in a house and yes that's right and I mean so when if you start saying so I just think it's going to be a little a little it'll be tricky R and then what about like a minimum unit on an Adu so like a studio apartment minimum could be what like 350 sare ft oh putting a minimum size again I think that's up to the the health um there are Health regulations about minimum sizes like tiny houses but tiny Apartments Yeah well yeah I mean I think the idea is not to have and I don't know this is something that could be put in place it's something I think Jim asked about and I just thought it was a good question um if it was elsewhere I know like in the building code there are some minimum room sizes but it doesn't necessarily get to units correct um because you think the state will allow that or you're you don't we're not sure just like a minimum habitable space I understand what you're talking about they have a maximum of 900 square ft but they haven't set a minimum um so that was just again a question that we had and I thought I'd ask you if you had any thoughts on it um if it has to have a kitchen a bathroom a bed you know and a bedroom like living space Studio how you know what's the absolute minimum little Ika first apartment it was about half the it literally maybe the size of this table but part of it was a bedroom I'm Sor a bathroom it had a little kitchenet and an entrance and that was it one but it was a habitable space yeah so if there's a minimum maybe I don't have enough information about that to tell you what it should be um yeah well are you do you want to have a establish a minimum because you think that below a certain number they shouldn't be adus or you want to establish a minimum because you think that people will try to do less in they really need this minimum number to make it a comfortable place to live well I mean if you're going to make a dwelling unit it should really be able to function as a dwelling unit right somebody I I don't know if they came to you with 100 square fet and said that's going to be an Adu I mean you wouldn't have any means to say no as long as they provided a kitchen the bathroom requirements under the health code and the building code for square footage so I had asked um the health director about um the minimum and she said that there is a code uh the minimum standards for Fitness for human habitation under code 410 420 habitability requirements and it states the square footage and what is it cool but I didn't work that far so if we reference the health code have reference the health code let me see if they can find it so they um if uh maybe if you reference the health code then then you protect yourself which we do I think in this you know there well one thing that we know we want to do is limit and we can't we know we can do is limit not allowing short-term rentals so that um we know people don't generally support that and yeah if anything else that's I I for one um would like us to to see and use the model bylaw so that we can be on sound footing but um so if we want something that's just a really simple framework until we get that but otherwise like to go through some detailed requirements that we don't know will fly or not yeah we do have under just to follow up on that the construction of any Adu must be in Conformity with the State Building Code and if applicable title five of the state sanit sanitary code and lawful under all other provisions of applicable Town health building zoning and other local laws and regulations so that covers Us in good what that whatever that requirement for that minimum square footage now also I just had a question that there's a a definition of dwelling principle but then throughout the document we use primary so I think we have to go to principle cuz that's in by by law so that was just a um a cleanup of some language okay all right so should we try to move just sort of quickly through some of the other areas while you all are here I mean feel free to stay here um if you have other things um so just to back up you yeah so are we clear that these uh new units would be subject to the setbacks of the principled structure and not the accessory setbacks that's what I would like to see I think that that I don't know that that's clear in the draft regs though yeah it's a question that's a question too I think it's it's a key question for even accessory structures often don't meet the accessory setbacks but if they're going to be residential structures then do they need to meet the residential setbacks the principle setback Reed it's really it's really not an accessory right it's it's it's an additional unit but it's not an accessory right so it's a fully independent structure smaller than the principal structure but it's an additional unit so in my my view it should meet the setbacks of the principal structure that's residential structure right right required setback for a residential structure U accessory structures are allowed some leeway like the biggest one is they have to meet the 30ft setback for the rear so you can put a garage um in residen SE 8 ft from the rear and 8 ft from the side or you can put your pool you know 8 ft from the rear 8 ft from the side but if you're going to call if you're going to allow these accessory dwelling units which I call additional dwelling units to be use those um those lesser setbacks I don't think that should happen because you're going to get more more um it's going to be more detrimental to the neighbors yeah I agree so I think you might want to make a statement somewhere in okay that's good so when we get to that um there was some language under use that under that would be under the use I made a comment on that in here somewhere yeah it came true or not Welter would you have some concern and and this is one of my thoughts on a minimum size um you know there's some parts of town that have some smaller residences with some small square footage and those will never be the maximum is never going to be an issue because they could never they probably could never car about 900 ft right but you know what concerns me is a small with with no minimum and I'm not sure what that Board of Health minimum is Maggie it is um I found it every dwelling unit shall contain at least 150 square fet of habitable floor space for its first occupant and at least 100 square fet of habitable floor space for each additional occupant so how do you how you they know that so how much was for the first50 for the first 100 for the second it becomes an Enforcement issue for the for the health department basically so you'd have to limit the occup small un there too many people in it so if you had 150 foot unit you have to limit the OCC occupancy to one person yeah and the minute they had two people in there we'd be all over them and every residence would that be in the building permit so that yeah in every residence each room used for sleeping by one occupant shall contain at least 70 square ft of floor space that's a bedroom a bedroom wow it's pretty small so that leaves so if you had a single person occupancy that leaves you 80 Square ft to accomplish a bathroom and a kitchen kitchen well and what worries me is what we may end up with you know which is small homes carved into some pretty every basement in Milton well why don't you try to limit the the square footage you know I mean you're trying to come up with a legal bylaw well that's what I I was saying maybe we say 350 seem to be very difficult when it gets that small yeah it creates all kinds of enforcement issues so why I don't mean 350 I mean mean 150 or 70 plus 80 or whatever it is um I'm thinking you know in general the bylaws is Broad the new Adu bylaw so whatever a town can do to limit it in in a way that would be allowed and will be somewhat that's what zoning is all about will be protective I mean that that would be the way to think about it so I think yeah the more you talk about it I think some limitation on minimum size minimum size make sense it has to be a reasonable living environment you know and the you're right it it therefore it it does make it it would be difficult anyway I'm thinking about my house I'm on a 5,000 ft lot I think my house is about 1200 ft footprint and you know the garage is underneath the house there's just practically there's would be no way I could imagine doing an apartment in my house but if I did um I would certainly never want to do one that was 150 square ft but you know you it just have to take away a lot of the house in order to do it it wouldn't make sense and that's what you want you don't want you might not you might not but you know if if we wrote it the way we discussed earlier and the the health code is the code that we're asking people to comply with you'll have 150t adus as long as they can have U you know a uh an entrance and you know comply with everything else can we limit it to no basements or Subterranean Lev level I always wonder about that cuz it seems that's you have to have a dwelling unit by building Cod has to have access to light and air and you have to have proper um head height and proper exiting so if a basement has a 6ot clearance you can't have an a living unit there oh no but if maran's garage has a 6'8 finished floor to finished ceiling that's not a habitable space for the building code I mean that's where they have to come in converted garage would be you convert a garage not at 6'8 ceiling finished that isn't that the minimum seven feet is the minimum for a bathroom and you have to have more than that for other seven feet so you take out your floor no you have to have higher than that for nonb it's in the building code what's the threshold for light in air anyway for it you definitely have to have and if it's a basement you're probably going to have to have an egress window so uh there is a square footage requirement for the um light for the light and air I just don't know what it is off the top of my head but I % and 4% okay you know it off the top of your head but you definitely have to have them and so you you wouldn't have a legal Adu if you didn't if you envision a lot of these basements which have um you know these very small Windows now that doesn't mean that they can't go in and put in one of those areaway units but I I think what Jim was saying was what about putting a basement in an Adu if you're going to build a 900t building in the back of year house can you the definition says 900 ft includ basement ra I'm the definition the definition says um CU i i i flagged that noticing it it says wow it it the square footage includes the gross floor area definition says the sum of the areas of all floors of the building including basements cellers mezzanine and intermediate floor tiers and penthouses of Headroom height measured from the exterior faces of exterior walls or from the center line of walls separating buildings but excluding covered walkways open roofed areas porches and similar spaces that's in the definition that the in hlc's so if if you were going to have a basement then you counts in your 900t limit whether it's finished or not it doesn't say whether it has to be finished or not so my go ahead I'm just going to go back it says um that you know the in the definition of the Adu it it says that it's not larger in Gross floor area than half the gross floor of the principal dwelling or 900 squ ft whichever smaller so uh in and is subject to such additional restrictions as may be imposed by a municipality including but not limited to additional size restrictions and restrictions or prohibitions on short-term rental provided however that no municipality shall unreasonably restrict the creation or rental of an Adu that is not a short-term rental so what I'm asking is can we omit basement space it's all I'm asking can do some kind of a provision that says you cannot do an Adu in a basement or a garage in a basement or have a basement any basement my existing basement right now is a massive meets the building codes okay so we can't we can't R our bylaw we can't do that that was the only question okay sorry that was yeah and it's got to have its own separate yeah you can I mean so you'd have finish plenty of basement it's easy to do especially at 150 square F feet you get to I'm just try to find a way to avoid that but so would language Walter just to what you're saying is regarding meeting the setbacks because it's as it should meet the same setbacks is a principal dwell a single family um in that District could you say um in Adu in a detached structure um shall meet the front rear and side setback requirements for a single family dwelling in the relevant Zoning for the principal structure okay for principal structure yeah um in the relevant zoning district and which has a full foundation and suitable construction for conversion into an independent dwelling unit or prin is that something that you've seen somewhere yeah it's something I I wrote in um but some of the things I I'm not sure if that took so if you want me to read this again we can maybe add it and we can um I was thinking that this would be it would be good to put this in um following our number two which says any single family dwelling proposed to add or include an Adu shall meet the zoning requirements for single family dwelling in the zoning District in which is located or shall be an existing non-conforming single family dwelling with non-conformities which shall not be exacerbated by the addition of an Adu but then we could go on and then we could put in what I just said a a detached principal dwelling is that what you a all right I'll read this um if anyone wants to type this in a detached Adu a detached yes we could say a detached Adu shall meet the front rear is somebody writing this oh if somebody wants to yeah where are okay page um under C General conditions and requirements for all accessory dwelling units page four yep the top number two number two and it's number two this language would follow this would be inserted following in addition of an Adu period we would write a detached right here um no down one paragraph yeah down right after that big Adu yeah right there you go we could say a detached Adu shall meet the front comma rear and side setback requirements for a single family dwelling just you should put the princip principal dwelling and you you can just say in Adu in a separate Building she'll meet all setb where I put that in here somewhere right isn't that what you in the well in the relevant zoning District um all applicable setback requirements I mean that it yeah all applicable setback requirements okay and should it be all dimensional requirements though do you want height I mean I guess it's subject to height anyway right yeah but it would be it would get well it would get the principal structure height which would be 35 ft but yeah if you have a 900t building that's 3500 I have something similar relevant although you might see some yeah and the reference to to the basement or seller is I'm not sure I understand that cuz what you have to have for a structures it has a full Foundation meaning it can't be it's building yeah it has a full Foundation it can't be a mobile home or it can't be like a like a okay so so just say a full Foundation means a foundation you can walk around in versus a slab on grade which is no Foundation but it's got frost coverage down to 4 feet so it's should we say a solid foundation yeah a solid foundation would that be the permanent permanent Perman a permanent foundation permanent foundation permanent foundation permanent foundation and suitable construction for conversion into an independent dwelling unit well can't can't a permanent foundation still be a foundation that just reaches um Frost protection a slab Foundation would be fine yeah so we're not requiring that it has a full a full basement for no that's what I don't want to you don't even want to do that because of the definition of Adu I mean if it includes the area in the basement then it will sort of kill the whole I think the the intention of this was that it's it's not a partial F like it's the idea is it's not temporary that you can pick up and move away yeah the idea is it doesn't have wheels right right so if just say a foundation that meets the building code a foundation and suitable con I a permanent foundation and suitable construction for conversion into an independent dwelling unit well I think do you need that Cod the last part yeah maybe we don't it's constructed and has a no meets the setback and has a full full Foundation all building and suitable to and meets all building and meets and meets all required building code yeah that's even we're talking about an Adu built in a separate building mhm a new construction yeah yeah so I just converting something that's already and anything that you do has to meet building code but but the thing the beginning of this I don't think is consistent with the guidelines because here it's saying um that any single family dwelling proposed to add or in include an Adu shall meet the zoning requirements of single family so that precludes a pre-existing non-conforming principal dwelling being able to add an Adu and I don't think the definition in the regs allows that so I think you could just say an Adu shall meet the zoning requirements right and and take out the first part of that right right so start get rid of any single family dwelling propos to add or include except for doesn't that mean that you can do that you can do it within or an addition in a non-conforming single family dwelling yeah I thought that was I thought the statute that's the statute the RS say that the r say that you can so so we can leave that that no because it says it it says any single family dwelling shall meet so that's saying you can't do an addition unless it meets the zoning right the way that's that's that's saying that you have a you have to have a compliant single family Welling before you it's not what the you can't have it pre-existing non-conforming that's what that says that's what that says and that's contrary to the RS it's really it's really not Material because the we're not worried about the existing single family structure we're worried about the the new either freestanding structure or addition to the single family structure here's I'm going to and the addition would have to meet all pertinent setbacks anyway so any single family dwelling so I'm just change that to any Adu shall meet the zoning requirements for single family in the zoning District in which it's located or shall be within within an existing non-conforming I don't even think you have to address it no I don't think we have to do that either and you could just say so just all you have to do is say any Adu shall meet the Z requirements for a single family and shall meet the uh have a permanent foundation um compliant with building code or something like that to get the you're talking about an Adu in a separate building right yeah okay this is old language from like two or three years ago so it needs to be looked at here can you so when you say any Adu here shall meet the requirements that in that first part of that sentence that could be an addition or a a detached right so then if you stop it at in which so if you I'm just going to do this and you can this is not doing a uh it is doing um tracking right so what I would do is get rid of that that it's not doing tracking did you enable your tracking it doesn't look like it's yeah I saw it didn't track so I'm going to do a tracking here hold on so now now we should be able to see what I just what I'm going to strike now you can see it right yeah and think here don't need that either I think you just say why do you need the first sentence I don't understand that excuse me any Adu meeting the requirements it's only requirements for a single family dwelling I mean the point is that it an Adu in a single family dwelling that's existing can that the the house can be nonconforming that's you're telling us that that's allowed by either the state regulations or the state law so we shouldn't say that per sentence well I think really what we're trying to get this is a detached Adu right so we probably should say any detached Adu shall be can I make a suggestion please can I take a look at those um and get back to you yeah and review them and just you mean this take a look at this a copy of your draft a copy um this is what we need regulations that the state is opposing I'd love to get a copy to that would be great so you have time to sit and think about it um one thing that maybe while you're here if we back up under B where under our definitions where we had accessory accessory structure um I had a thought on what we could say um accessory structure um could we Define it as a second independent dwelling unit which is not combined in or attached to a single family dwelling but is in a separate structure it's a or or not even to say that a second independent dwelling unit which is not contained in or attached to a single family or primary dwelling principal dwelling period so that could be our definition unless we can come up with something better but that's just we've had that we've had nothing there so well when the building code and accessory structure I think is something different it just indicates any structure not attached to the house and it meets a separate setback so we're basically doing our own definition of that okay I'm sorry I didn't realize that there was a definition in the building am I wrong no okay then we should use that definition that's yeah or just take it out or just take it out of here yeah cuz I think it was a question of whether there was going to be referring to an accessory structure you know being allowed to have the Adu so then you would need some reference but okay I think so maybe we can just strike that okay okay yeah it's going on nine so and also if we're GNA just finished that page where it references um the parking I think I've talked about it before that um we should note I think we should note that there is no overnight parking on public ways in Milton so everybody knows that cuz not everybody knows that so I think it's not very much enforced anymore where um you can get a get and so yeah and so then I would like it to say owners o either owners occupants or residents of an Adu shall not be allowed to obtain a parking hardship permit from the Milton Police Department I like that good luck with that the parking hardship permits are administered by the Milton police department they I think we'd have to have them come in and have aers that's what I said I kind wanted John King to come in and get on board with the policy the off street parking requirement at night I believe is part of the general bylaws so that's the general bylaws um and it is the fact that it may not be enforced very well isn't is a separate issue but it it it exists already so so I just think I think we've all acknowledged the fact that um that parking is problematic now and it's going to be more problematic the more units the more dense the town becomes so I know it might not be enforced as much as we all would like but I think we should alert people that number one that there is no overnight parking because a lot of people just don't know that and then flag it for them saying that um they they should not be able to obtain a parking because state law says it only has to be one parking spot so how come you know then they're going to be able to get two parking spots well as I say the police have been administering it in in my way past experience that's not how you got one of those you didn't just go in and say you wanted it yeah just because we're you couldn't have a driveway nothing says you can't make your driveway bigger M you just can't not in your front yard cuz you can't pave yeah around the side so if you have the room you could do it may have to adjust the f a little bit to make sure it happens you can refer to the general discouraging parking okay yeah that's what we're trying to disc we're trying to discourage cuz this whole thing is especially by trans if you're by the subway you're not required any parking um so we're trying to encourage people to take public transportation and discourage the use of cars and and so I think that that philosophy just needs to be reinforced it's it's actually you know it's in my opinion it's actually working against the initiative of creating adus in those areas that are within a half mile because if you're if you're a if you own a home within a half mile and you have an opportunity to create an Adu but you can't you're not required to create a parking space how marketable is that Adu it's not marketable back to the point we talked about earlier the majority of people are driving they're not using Transit so you know without parking it's it's less likely that someone is going to create an Adu in on their property although I think it's that one step further I'm sorry but we can't require I know we can't but they can still do it they could still add a parking space yeah they can they can so it's only what we can't require of them but if it's your property and you have you know ample space and you're like I'm going to add two more spots because likely might have two cars or my kids come home and want to live you know one of the adus and have two cars or whatever you can you are allowed to you as a homeowner have the right to create it but we just can't can't require but it doesn't mean we can't encourage it that's where I was going with it you know encourage more parking yeah realistically if you have a one-bedroom Adu and it's renting for whatever two grand a young couple that wants to try and save for a house is going to be renting that chances are both couples are working it's high the that they both have cars I think and one's a teacher and one works downtown or whatever and they both need parking and if they're not provided parking they might rent somewhere else that was my experience on School Street anyway I can speak to it it's 15y old information but it's exactly what happened trying to rent a two two-bedroom or large one-bedroom young couple both have cars I had one car parking for each unit yeah I turned away so many tenants that were great tenants well that's the issue with a lot of our non-conforming properties that have maybe even a two family in certain parts of town they have you know the homes were built when people didn't have multiple cars they only had maybe one vehicle so the driveways so the the tenants end up having to shuffle their cars and we've heard you know it's been posted on Facebook you know trying to get hardship pass you know hardship pass because they or they play the game of shuffling the cars so one's out on the street one night one's on you know they take turns alternating you rent a spot from your neighbor who no so it's yeah it's already with non-conforming structures that don't have you know large homes on small Lots it's we're just trying to um not exasperate right a situation and I know that why you laughing it's not going to happen so I think it's almost so 9:00 um just I want to check in with everybody on this point um cuz we we have more to get to um if we we will send you all a draft so if you would like to you know continue would we like to continue get a little bit further with the Adu or should we I didn't something yet so oh yeah I can email it to you yeah okay um how does the board feel about um do we want to continue or do we want to talk about the other articles I I think I think it' be helpful if we give Walter an opportunity yeah you know we we could we could continue but it might it might not be the best use of the time if Walter might have some ideas and some if wal wants to come back I'm on the CL so we actually know to that point the the invite to return back that it's not formal yet until Mar says so but it'd have to be the sixth wouldn't it yeah because we need to submit I just worry about we have so much on the agenda for the 6th um maybe we could just jump with without going through everything piece by piece maybe jump to the PE things that people would like to comment on that are maybe they think are missing in here or um you mean on the 6th it right now okay I think one of the things that I think we we're going to need to discuss um because it affects the language is whether we want more than one Adu um allowed because we are able to to limit um I do not want more than 18 Adu allowed yeah I don't think we should allow especially at this point in time where we're not exactly sure with um how our density is going to um occur how quickly people are going to take advantage of this what's going to happen with NBTA zoning I feel like we should be a little bit more conservative and then um and then we can always adjust um as needed if if if we feel like it's it's helpful so I agree with you so that's um I think that's fine I this is the type of thing I think we should focus on the things that we know we can and get a very barebone um draft of the things that we know we can do and then just hold off until we get the model bylaw because I really feel like could spend a lot of time on this that just ends up getting stricken because it can't be in here and I think if we thought about like changing the lot coverage for example that's going to be like more impactful than some of these other things so um you know I focus on the things that we know yeah I I mean I would I would volunteer to do a very barebone version of Adu of the things that we know that we can do and uh and strip out the other things for now and maybe we just keep or maybe we have a highlighted copy where we highlight or we or or we can have yeah I mean I but I think we should start with a bare bone and then we could say um in some way have kind of um a way to track something that if we could be done that this would be included but be able to easily pull it out you know if it the model bylaw doesn't allow it so can I add so that if we if we are saying um there's there's language that we should put back in after number four of General conditions which page are you on um on for me it's page four but for you guys it might be five it's General conditions after number item number four where it says you have highlighted um for more than one Adu we would strike that mhm and then I would insert um a next par a following paragraph um saying there shall be no more than one accessory dwelling unit comma either internal or detached do you find it Julia is this what you're looking at yeah that's my edit not more than one accessory dwelling unit will be printed on a par in a single family residential zoning District this um yeah let's see all right what do you want to just start it fresh because there's I sort of expanded it or definitely right there shall be no more than one accessory dwelling unit comma either internal or detached comma on any lot period sorry one what more than one unit um so no more than one accessory dwelling unit comma I'll spell it out in a sec yeah that's either internal or detached comma on any lot period actually we should be no Adu shall be separated from the principal dwelling unit and then I think we did have this through condom and we do have that condominium conversion so it's really yeah just adding um I think that's statute actually condo yes so it's actually just adding a first sentence to that to write to what is currently in there so it has to remain in rental well they can't be split you can't take your Adu and your single family and separate separate the ownership neither the principal dwelling nor the may be sold and that is in there okay that was the only other they thought of something um okay so you can strike my it's down there yeah it was down there under number it actually what yeah down lower sorry looking at the clean copy and then under going down D process and procedural requirements um oh the Building Commissioner shall administer and enforce the provisions of this section thanks it's there under number two don't want you get two yeah sorry number two I'm well it's there it says the Building Commissioner shall administer enforce the provisions is number two here and then yeah then it says number one and then under no Adu shall be constructed without the issuance of a building permit then it goes to say no Adu shall be occupied unless a certificate of occupancy for such Adu has been issued by the Building Commissioner period a certificate of occupancy shall not be issued unless the Building Commissioner determines that the Adu is in Conformity with the provisions of this section but then we have in here and the special permit issued by the board of appeals I don't think we want to we you have to get rid of that we have to get rid of that so that was my I was just going to say should we reference the building code right there and I was this language taken from the two years ago I mean I find all unnecessary right the building department the procedure of the building commissioner or the building inspector is to inspect and determine whether it's the everything is compliant and what what what's required for an occupancy permit is based on building code requirements and you know health code whatever he the building department has to follow those are all the rules they already follow you don't need to you you already said the building department will administer the bylaw and um and that they have to apply for a building permit so the only purpose I thought of having this is for more for the applicant so when the applicant says I'm going to the building department you know we want to make sure that the applicant that they can't move in without a certificate because this is going to be a lot of non these are going to be a lot of lay normal people who don't know building codes and requirements um so they might just do things and say oh I didn't know we couldn't move in we thought we had you know all the approvals we needed so it's harmless I mean if if it's informative so that's I I think as much education as we can give to whoever is applying because this is just going to be normal residents um without any experience of of um new construction so but it should end with that provisions of the section period and and strike the end of it yeah that was the only thing I was going to note on that all right so it's 910 do we um again I have a lot on the use in dimensional requirements but maybe we should pause or did but if anyone else has anything too I up to this point I'm ready to pause especially if um Cheryl's willing to take a if you want to send what you have for you said a lot for the dimensional I'll take a look at it it's not a lot a lot but it's so CU that's where the lock coverage would yes but no the lock coverage would have to come in an amendment to the other part of the zoning code and so that would be but if it's possible to do then all we'd have to say is that that provision strike the part that says it's not applicable in to single families right we just strike that and then the rest I you'd have to see if the coverage made sense the percentage made sense but like in the MBTA zoning we've been looking at we were putting 40% open space so 60% coverage and that's pretty consistent with what you I found in the sea District along the LA Street quarter for example it probably doesn't cover everything yeah but maybe you have an idea from what your experience is Walter what coverage is the sea district is the one that has the most tight constraint right like the a the smallest Lots in uh and and because we we don't enforce it I really haven't paid much attention to it to be honest with you give you an idea of of uh what I think is out there even the setback requirements and having a limitation like if you have a 5,000 ft parcel and you have that's non-conforming already right but then if you have your setback requirements you're you could just see what that leaves you because you have a lot of 5,000 foot Parcels right exactly and you do enforce it I mean those requirements apply if someone building a new house so what is it 30 on the front or 20 on the C 20 20 on the rear in the 30 in the rear right so if you have side so if you have something that's well it all depends on the shape of the lot right but if you have something that's 50 ft wide by 100 ft deep and you're 10 on the sides that leaves you 30 on the front uh 30 width to do and you're taking 60 off that means you have 40 that means you have 1,200 square ft footprint that you could build in right yeah it's just exactly what my house is yeah you know you want a driveway if you can build one so um you know a 30X 40 footprint to do an Adu you're looking at doing it within the existing house maybe going up and doing in the Attic or something I do have one qu I do have one question before we let you all go because this if we start discussing this or amending it um we have in here um the Adu shall have a separate entrance from the from the entrance to the principal dwelling unit provided that there be a common entry hallway or Corridor for that separate entrances no that didn't it doesn't the state law say something about that sep just say separate it doesn't say anything about a car okay so I thought we were doing that to avoid like seeing two front doors right but it can it can share the same front entance if it it shares the same front door then you go in and then you go into into a v or something right what so it doesn't have to have a separate entrance no it doesn't but then there is language that that we had from two years ago which said if there is a separate entrance it should be in the side or the rear so I think and that's the language that I would want to see put in so we don't have two front doors right next to each other um but I'll send that around we'll circulate that because that was um if you think of you think about a lot of single families that are larger that have a garage you have a door next to the garage and then you have the main front door door so you already have two like front facing doors the typical Crosby Colonial Bree commonly an entrance to an in-law I still call them in-law temporary apartment it's commonly that breeze that that Breezeway is created a lot of times people create a garage and in that Breezeway and then add the it's also a mud room versus the front where you're coming in gas so you you there's a lot of homes already that have two front-facing doors so I don't really see that as in some ways it's better to have that than to have a side facing or except those were created as two families so I think some of those my house is the house that we're describing um but it's if it's a small house that has two entrances like if you have limited you know a limited you know facade and you have two entries it looks a little different the what you described and what you described there's quite a bit of separation between them I think that's worth thinking about is cuz I would almost call that a side door like even though it's on the front of your house we call it a side door yeah I guess it's a question again whether they'll see that as being something which limits whether it can be done or not because if you can't get that in and that limits you from being able to do it you're not requiring that similar kind of thing on a single family because they're yeah it's really an aesthetic single family some of them face the side some face an angle some face the front they all have all sorts of configurations but one's typically more dominant or a larger door that would come in the design and I don't think we can um talk about the design but if if there was going to be two front doors one of the front doors would just have to be designed to not look like a primary door correct so I don't know how we can do that this language that again two two years ago if the primary entrance of an accessory dwelling is not proposed to be shared with that of the principal dwelling such entrance shall be Loc located on the side or in the rear of the principal dwelling so maybe we we work on yeah how we language you could use but if you could come up with language that said it would be less obtrusive or I think that's it's or suggested or yeah that it should be all right well we won't keep we should move on on okay great yeah and anyone else yeah while we're on this anyone from the public who would like to speak on the you article Brian welcome hi everyone good evening uh Brian F 6:30 Brush Hill Road um had a couple of quick comments um um and again thank you as I said last time thank you for taking up the very difficult task of drafting planning excuse me drafting zoning in public form I know it's difficult um three quick comments uh one is uh I think you should put in a definition of what short-term rental is is unless it's already defined I I didn't have it in front of me I don't know if it's in there but um I think that should be something that the board that that isn't left vague it should be defined as whether it's 3 months 6 months 9 months 12 months what is a short-term rental uh second point on number five that the chair was just talking about um I don't have the exact language but they were saying that not more than one accessory dwelling unit um just a question about whether and I don't know the definition off the top of my head what how they're defining the Adu but I I don't know if it needs to say no more than one additional accessory dwelling unit uh to accommodate existing two families so that's just a call out and a question uh and then the third is actually just on the topic you were just talking about I would be um I would be cautious about the the front door requirement I think it gets into a very uh subjective call for uh the code enforcement officer um I live in a historic 1850s Farmhouse my house has two very prominent front doors on opposite ends of the building they're not even aligned to each other um and I think there's lots and lots of examples in Milton of homes that have two doors on the front of the house so I would just be cautious to not um get into a situation where you're leaving something that is very subjective for a code enforcement officer to have to Wrangle and try to figure out that's it again thank you for all your time on this and happy holidays great thank you good comments um okay anyone else with their hand up Julia that you're saying okay all right well thank you very much welcome appreciate your institutional knowledge and your professional experience on on this so you just you're going to send me that Julia yes yeah yeah thank you thank you thank you you're invited to come back on the 6th as well to thank you if you like so we'll be a little further along I hope okay okay great okay should we um I Maggie you said there was something on site plan approval do you want to just touch on that um um or should we save that for well let's well if you have it I mean I'd be happy to now I think I think a lot of work has been great um my question is on page two um we talk about the size of trees says a existing condition survey that includes boundaries uh so the second sentence it shall include existing structures parking areas open space features wall fences entri P of 12 in caliper or more so my concern is I think there's a lot of benefit to having trees that are less than 12in caliper so I'm I can't recall where that 12 came in and that might have even been I might have put that in as a placeholder so I don't know if um 12 in is fairly substantial so I don't know if there was um um if we should decrease that I feel like in site yeah we've like I'm thinking about so I I found it's on page five L uh under site design standards so g l it says um we need to track that so incorporate existing site features such as trees of 12in caliper so is that what you were thinking of or is there another place that it's new I'm not sure I because on then on N planting says deciduous trees shall be at least 3 in in caliper and deciduous trees used for screening shall be expected to reach a high of 20 ft within 10 years so that's on page six um n under the plantings I think what you were referring to was in plans and plan content correct that was under plans what they needed to record on the plan for us yeah okay so that doesn't mean that's just recording on the plans that doesn't mean remove they're going to remove anything that's just document the tree survey that we have them do okay so that just was my question there because surveys you know you're not going to record every sapling yeah typically okay and then and um so on under again under plans um and when content 12 a traffic impact analysis for projects with 10 or more parking spaces so I don't think you know 10 I'm not sure what the correct number is um but I don't think necessarily think 10 is a significant amount of parking spaces that you would have to undergo a traffic impact analysis um but I I'm not sure with the correct number or if this is a plan that could be um remember any of these can be waved any of them so if you look at the very bottom any one of these can be waved okay remember like I mean I don't know if 10's correct or right either but if you think about like MBTA communities and we're thinking of like the LA Street Corridor 10 spaces on a lot there on a narrow road might be a lot whereas 10 on some other road is nothing right so it kind of gives at least a threshold um but it can be waved yeah okay so that was good um and then just uh on page four just a language correction right at the top um or other appropriate professionals who can assist the authority so that's just any author so have we used the word Authority before I'm sorry where was that oh right at this top of page four e High Consultants who can assess can assist the board you know again I thought it was changed to board I maybe I'm oh incurred by The Authority yeah so that's just yeah that should change that should be switched to board that's just a left over from uh yeah um and then on page there's another one too another line up yeah it's over to to your left Julia a little bit further incurred by The Authority there you go and then I just wasn't really sure on page 5e where um and maybe it doesn't matter but where the rationale for any development having 40 units or more should have a playground that that came from when I did the research for the MBTA communities and I was looking at what other communities were doing and thinking if you have a development of 40 units you know having a play area so it wouldn't be so I agree in having a play area and a recreation area but I just um so if you have 35 units and you have kids living in a 35 unit development they don't need to have a play area again just having a threshold of a requirement um yeah so I don't again I just wasn't really sure where that came from and then um I don't recall now since it's been over a year I know you said that before regarding MBTA so if you have 39 units you don't have a play area it's like any one of these thresholds you know you're required to to give a threshold because otherwise it how do you judge whether it's meeting it or not I mean these are supposed to be measurable and if you don't give like if you just said you know for a reasonable number of units that wouldn't be sufficient so you have to make a judgment about what threshold to give and if somebody else thinks it should be a different number no again I wasn't really sure what the number was and there must have been some sort of rationale for it so I'd have to go back and check all of my notes which is would be timec consuming yeah okay and then down on ghi um where where you were talking about the um parking beds and just a point of clarification it says in the last sentence a five foot what uh it's Terminus Island shall be provided at the beginning and end of each row and a shade tree shall be planted so I don't know if we just want to um identify a shade tree but maybe it could be an ornamental tree or the one reason that shade trees are used for in a situation of a large parking lot is for heat island effect you know is to get some shade onto the pave surface yep yeah so I just wasn't sure if that was a little too restrictive Ive you know I'm all for trees being planted everywhere um but there are some ornamentals that might be nice too so I just wanted to flag it is it too um too restrictive I think that's again one of those things that we could waiver we could put a waiver on if yeah let's just say that there were you had a parking lot and had a landscape design that you said they came and said we'd really prefer a couple of ornamentals here I don't see that the board would say no because we have an opportunity to wave it okay so all of these are wable and then also in the parking surfaces so um include it says including pervious materials um which is bricks decomposed Granite but it's my understanding that Milton doesn't consider gravel as pervious when you get your storm water bill um any gravel driveway is still taxed as um impervious interesting it doesn't say gravel here though it says concrete asphalt decomposed Granite yeah so that was my question do we add do we add gravel PE Stones what about shells you know crushed shells can also be used as a driveway I think what you would do Julia is just added up in the second under the the first sentence favors including materials so a yeah so there and so how would we and again and this isn't a question really for us but how would we get the town of Milton to um recognize that gravel and stone shells PE stones are is considered a perious they actually um charge for Brick walkways that are not not um not set in stone just a loose bricks yeah and somebody who had a brick patio large and it was all considered impervious going back to shade how did you well Cheryl said that that can be waved so that's okay yeah that was just yeah that's fine um and then um one other thing was on plans you know cuz I'm on that climate action committee and we we're talking about carbon sequestration and I know it doesn't happen now but would in the future would there ever be um a requirement for a carbon sequestration plan maybe that's too far I think that's too far but we do have a requirement under you let's see on page six um resiliency and sustainability to consider present and future climate conditions in assessing the Project's environmental impacts including carbon emissions yeah um and then it also extreme particip precipitation extreme heat and sea level rise and projects must identify sight and building strategies that eliminate reduce and mitigate adverse impacts including those due to change in climate condition so I think that covers it without being prescriptive yeah and then under the renewal energy under that it says projects shall consider access to solar energy in building placement orientation and design but I I don't but it shouldn't be at the expense of um tree removal cuz that's another thing that we've sort of talked about on the climate action is what is um what provides more of a benefit or what should be encouraged solar panels but if you plant a tree then you're going to cash shade and that could that's why I don't have solar panels because I'm not willing to take down trees so that's um it's just a discussion Point um it's not requiring um she consider it's just asking for it to be considered to put it as something to discuss since it's asking for it to be considered I mean when they're doing site planning you can arrange a building you know depending on the size of the parcel you can arrange your building to take advantage or to not you know and this is saying do that if you are able to um I think that is sort of so because I wasn't here when you guys discussed this so this is these were just some of the questions comments okay you have more no I've just got a quicky on as we talk about waivers page one going into page to this meeting may also provide an opportunity to discuss the procedures Comm a waiver and information the board will need um should we say you know after waiver should it say like waiver options or waiver waiver process it's like just doesn't sound that doesn't in reading that it doesn't sort of jump out at me saying hey you can possibly get waivers for all these things maybe waiver process I it to disc request River request options process whatever just something more than just the word request yeah cool fine that's it for me all right so this is I think a good point that we would um if I could have a motion to continue the public hearing for Warrant articles until January 6th you have a time it um we have some other things um that will be first probably yeah so 7:30 we'll be before that I'll make a motion to continue the public hearing on warrant articles to 7:30 on January 6th that sound good any discuss second all in favor I I great thank you um great all right I appreciate that um and so now we can um open our new public hearing which is the the nursery special permit um Maggie is going to leave at this time thank you so we can discuss and we can invite the applicants to join us sorry good night thanks you'd like to introduce yourself and sure did your name and address once you get settled for the record good evening and happy holidays thank you my name is Josh Oldfield and I live at 24 far Street um I don't know if the board has a copy of what I'm going to read off tonight or not but if you don't I have cop like a hard copy if you don't mind does anyone else need a hard copy sure yeah that's great you have it I'm here with Maran betric our attorney to help give some insight as well so would you like me to begin Josh yeah you can go good evening good evening Josh olfield is doing the application and I'm presenting it but um we've talked about this and since I've been involved since shortly after their initial 2016 permit was issued I've represented them for appeals represented them for their renewal I'm very familiar with their belief legal requirements um and the procedures uh so I'd like to give you a summary and I think each of you did receive a copy of this memo but probably only got it yesterday um so I'm going to go through it quickly and um I'll be here for questions I also have some comments in response to um memorandum I received at 5:00 tonight from some neighbors attorney um Matthew dun Attorney Dunn and I'm going to try to get through that all quickly as sort of an introduction and then go with the details of what Josh wants to say about the application um so this this I think the first point I wanted to make that I think is quite important here is that their nurseries uh Landscaping special permit is Tim limited operation it is not a special permit that can be renewed forever and that is because of the very unusual circumstances of the nursery's original permitting that when the nursery applied for a nursery permit Nursery and Landscaping permit back many many years ago this was Josh's father and mother um it was in the neighborhood it's in now and it was a very sensitive and special neighborhood then so the board of appeals um which issues Nursery permits board of appeals limited the permit to the applicants so uh Margaret and uh Robert Oldfield were the only persons who could operate under that Nursery permit um a number of years later I think it was 19 1999 I'm not sure um the board of appeals decided to amend that permit to allow the operation to be carried out by the children of Robert and Margaret and so that is how Maggie and Josh Oldfield came to be operators under um the original Nursery permit and they are now the sole operators and managers of the Nursery and Landscaping business this permit is limited to the to them there are no other children who are interested in operating the nursery and their own children cannot take over the operation and the the landscape use special permit bylaw that the town passed in 2016 only allows the operation that was in existence for a landscaping business in 2012 and the's operation is limited by the nature of its original permits so you know Josh is here tonight to ask you to issue a new special permit but lest anybody think that's some kind of broad opening opening of uh you know some other type of use or much longer term use um this special permit cannot be continued beyond the the time within which Maggie and and Josh Oldfield are able and willing to operate so you know they're I don't know in their 50s I guess um depending on their health and everything else they could continue for a number of years they could decide to retire at any time but when that happens there is no way for this operation to continue unless somebody comes in with an entirely new application and goes to the board of appeals all over again and says we want to run a nursery operation and it's not the old field family um and I can't presume as to what's likely to happen in that case but I will say that you know some of the most valuable property in Milton is up in this area this property that they're using is very valuable so most likely the use will change within a few years so um this is not like um the Nursery and Landscaping business on Route 28 for example which can continue indefinitely with renewals of the permits secondly the applicants are requesting exactly the same terms and conditions as were approved in their 2016 special permit and their 2019 renewal permit they have not changed anything they have not changed their the way their SES laid out they have not changed their operation and they do not and they are not asking for any relief from any of the conditions and terms that were imposed in 2016 and that's why the application is drafted as an as an application to incorporate by reference all of the documents all of the plans um all of the evidence that the planning board has on file and in fact because both of the permit and the renewal were appealed that evidence is also documented in court files they're all public records and they're all available and so they haven't copied every record all over again for you because you already have it in your files the only changes to these original terms and conditions are the result of the sale of um U Maggie oldfield's house which was 237 Hillside Street that was part of the original permit site it's gone now Maggie lives somewhere else um so an amendment was granted in 2019 allowing that lot to be removed a second lot 2117 Hillside Street was no longer eligible to be part of the permit because it was no longer contiguous and the bylaw requires that all the Lots be contiguous for such a permit so that's also out of the um permitted area then um as a result of the appeals the one change that the courts made the court made and this was actually um um the Massachusetts court of appeals determined that uh the nursery Corporation Incorporated the nursery operation could not be a recipient of the permit and the reason they did that was because they were not recipients of the original Nursery permits the board planning board in 2016 chose to make them a recipient for very good reasons I'm sure but the court did not uphold that so now when you see this application before you the only applicants are Josh and Maggie Oldfield there was um determination by the court however that Josh and Maggie can use the corporation to operate their business finally um there have been no changes to the site no changes to the operation um the requirements of the original bylaw the landscape business use bylaw requires an ongoing landscaping business in use in 2012 uh all of the volume of materials and the type of operation have to be the same as a result um this 20 2016 special permit required annual reports um simple reports to be filed by the nursery and Landscape aping business and these were things like documentation of the number of employees the number and types of trucks um the amount of materials of different types that are stored on the premises all of those things had to remain at no greater volume than they were in 2012 and they Nursery um our Maggie and Josh have filed all of those required reports they also had some unusual they had an unusual condition in their permit which was Rel to storm water because where the nursery is it's the recipient of a lot of storm water coming off the hill from the Blue Hills in back of them and um the as a result of the benefit of getting this special permit there Nursery had to install a whole storm water drainage system including channels and BMS and a storm water retention area which holds storm water and then eventually drains into the storm water system in Hillside Street um because they were required to have that drainage system every year they are supposed to turn over the logs that they maintain during the year showing what repairs and what work was done in the drainage system and usually it's a one-page statement but these days Josh always files the report saying that he's inspected the system and it's operating as it's supposed to supposed to be operated and those reports have all been filed timely filed with the town um the final point I want to make is this application is eligible only for a three-year term they uh by missing the application deadline for Renewal they also missed the opportunity now to apply for a longer than a three-year term the bylaw says that a new special permit can only be issued for up to three years so that that's my quick summary of sort of you know the basic legal background um I did want to respond briefly to some of the comments that Attorney Dunn made and I believe youve received that letter or memorandum from him um as I've already stated I represented Maggie and Josh for the appeal of their 2016 Landscaping permit and also for the appeal of their 2019 Landscaping permit and um in the course of those appeals the record evidence was submitted to the planning board it was also assembled by the town and provided to the land court and the Massachusetts appeals court so there's an extensive record of what conditions are were in 2016 um and the courts reviewed all of that evidence and determined that there was satisfactory sufficient evidence to support the determination of the of the planning board to support the um conditions imposed by the planning board in that permit and the permit was upheld so they're applying now for the same permit same terms and conditions and they're applying with the same operation and with the same um you know General conditions um The Dun memorandum recites all the conditions all of the requirements which are quite extensive in that 2016 um Landscaping special permit bylaw as if none of this as if this application weren't being done as it is which is that is an application for exactly the same operation and therefore the the applicants are relying on the existing record of what that operation is and they are saying that it has not changed what's important to understand is that that there have been inspections done on a regular basis since 2016 by the building department over and over again in fact there was a tremendous amount of scrutiny of this operation more than I've seen in any other special permit but you know there were appeals and and the neighbors were very concerned so there were lots of inspections of what they were doing so the questions that remain to be answered are was the work originally required ired carried out this work was required to improve the site um according to the planning board decision in 2016 and the answer is yes it was the compliant completion of site work is certified by an engineer in the 2017 as built plan and that's what the town required they couldn't start operating the landscaping business until that s Bill plan was filed then after the S plan is filed of course then they continue to operate that's why the building inspector continued to visit the site and inspected on on a regular basis so the site in operation today and since September 2019 when they applied for renewal is still compliant with the requirements of the 2016 decision and the renewal decision the premises have been inspected recently by our relatively new Building Commissioner Joseph auu and he has submitted a letter to the planning board saying that that that um that all aspects of the operation and the premises are compliant with the terms of that permit so the applicants don't need to submit copies of plans and documents that are already on file with the Milton planning board and these are because these are public records and they're already available to everyone they can incorporate that evidence in their current application and based on their position that their site plan and operation has not changed can rely on that evidence to support this application providing they can show that they've been inspected and they're still operating as required at that Time by those terms and conditions so the sufficiency of this evidence relied upon for this application has already been determined by Massachusetts land court and Massachusetts appeals court to be adequate to support the terms and conditions in the special permit in 2016 which are the same terms and conditions being requested of you tonight they're asking for nothing more than a special permit on those same terms and conditions for the same operation and the same site layout the second uh Memo from attorney dun was about um Maggie olfield recusing herself Maggie Oldfield has recused herself from these proceedings because of her position as an elected member of the planning board she had already previously consulted the appropriate State officials and as advised will not be participating in this hearing so those are my quick responses to those two memos and Josh is going to do the rest of the presentation great so I'm here to request the issue of a special permit and site plan approval for the continued operation of our landscaping business at theya Nursery I would like to give you a little bit of History my parents purchased the home of Roger th's Farmstand Greenhouse business in 1965 to start a business in a family in 1967 they were granted a special permit by the zba to construct a greenhouse and for the purpose of selling produce and plants as well as mulches and other fertilizer type products and to conduct a landscaping business in 1976 they purchased an additional contiguous lot at zero Forest Street in 1987 they purchased the property at 24 farest Street the zba amended the special permit to allow the New Lots to be used in conjunction with the Nursery and Landscaping business to allow for a new display building within an office and to authorize the sale of accessory items including garden tools and firewood from 1963 to today our family members have lived on the property have held ownership of the the nursery Corporation and have operated continuously as a nursery sellon plants bulk mulches soils and firewood as well as conducting a landscaping business since my father's death in 2000 Maggie and I have been The Operators of the business in 2013 it was determined that the town of Milton did not have the authority to issue special permits to allow Landscaping businesses to operate in residential districts instead the town should have issued variances because of this ruling the town issued a cease and assist of our Landscaping operations at a new townwide bylaw was created and was approved by town meeting in 2014 that allows all Landscaping businesses located in residential districts to be allowed to apply to the planning board for a special permit if they meet certain requirements we met the requirements so in 2016 we applied to the planning board and received a special permit this permit allows us to operate our landscaping business alongside our Nursery business on Hillside Street the 2016 permit was granted for a three-year term in 2019 we renewed our permit and were granted a 5-year trip this term expired in September for a variety of reasons this expiration date slip by us and for that we are sorry my mother passed away earlier this year and we are still in the process of settling her estate once that is finalized we will back we will be back to update the land ownership information and for an anr we are not sure when exactly that will be but it will be in the next couple of months we have provided the information as it stands today because we missed the renewal dead loan we thought it was best that we apply as a new special permit instead of just a renewal we don't want to get tied up in any procedural technicalities I know the town hall is short staffed in multiple departments and I apologize for creating more work for everyone so even though this application is for a new special permit there are no changes there are no amendments we're not seeking any waivers or concessions as our application States all the documents all the plans are the exact same as in 2016 and in 2019 and the conditions and terms will be the exact same as well I will quickly review the history of the 2016 and 2019 requirements in 2016 we provided documents and plans that identified the existing conditions and the proposed conditions all these conditions have been implemented and approved by Town staff and town boards we have made many sight improvements we removed impervious surfaces and created new Nursery stock growout areas we brought in new soil that naturally reduces storm water runoff the plant material captures and stores rainfall in their canopies their re roots and their Leaf litter the planted field creates conditions that promote the infiltration of storm water into the soil and helps to slow down and temporarily store runoff we have removed approximately 10,000 ft of impervious Surface by doing this we increased existing 30ft natural buffer by adding an additional 50 ft of new Nursery stock we also created a more centrally located landare area that is for our bulk material and for parking of our equipment new material bins were installed in this area approximately 40 ft away from the property line and sprinklers are attached to the corners of the bins the creation of the bins limits the amount of product we can store at any time we installed rubber sound absorbing fence on the most impacted property lines it is 8 ft tall with high tensile Steel fencing attached to 6 in x 12 ft long pressure post with attached two overlapping 4 1/2 ft sheets on sound proofing that is one pound reinforced Mass loaded vinyl along the property line along the South souly property line the fence it it it is set back 15 ft in from the property line along the northeast property line the fence is installed approximately 10 10 ft in from the property line as approved by the abutter and the Milton planning department further along the northeast property line which is the Joe Henning and row residence the fence is sitb 30 ft from the property LS in this section of fence is positioned on a Fieldstone wall that is built up almost 4 ft High to provide a additional noise reduction in privacy three 10t wide 8T High access gates were installed with sound attenuation panels so we have access to our Pro property on the other side of the fence even though we don't have any Wetlands we were not constructing any new buildings and our post construction storm water runoff was not increasing we installed an extensive drainage system the drainage system is designed and installed with our engineer and collaboration with one of the neighbors Engineers it is functioning as designed it minimizes storm water flow and prevents the generation of additional storm water by maximizing open and green spaces protecting natural features a series of ctech Chambers in the low area on the northeasterly section of the property by Harland Street tiing into the town storm water drain system in Hillside Street the 2016 permit required a 12 months and 24 months post construction Engineers report this report was completed and reviewed prior to our 2019 renewal we maintain the drainage s regularly and submit our maintenance logs annually to the town engineering department plantings were installed a mixed at range in height of 10 to 12 ft in that include Norway sprues White Pine and some areas planted are located on both sides of the fence parking plan we have a total of 34 parking spaces those spaces are shared among our customers employees and for the parking of our equipment this does not include additional spaces within the wood B for the parking of bobcats and other equipment building plans no new buildings were constructed constructed all structures exist one St structure we have is 12.6 ft tall and contains 437 Square ft and is connected to the rear of the wood bar the shed houses our small equipment like blowers trimmers as well as a 1,000g diesel tank the tank sits on a concrete pad the area is kept Clean and Clear of debris we have a 5-year per permit which expires next year with the Milton Fire Department the shed and tank get inspected at the time of renewal exterior lighting is is a is as shown on the lighting plan they are located as follows three 1,00 watt flood lights mounted have been removed and replaced with smaller spotlights with shields that are available at Home Depot they are not commercial grade one on The Barn at 13 ft .1 two on the garden sharp at 22 ft and one on the shed at 10 ft have been removed other lights include two accent wall lights on either side of the doors on the barn two accent wall lights on either side of the doors on the shed floor four fluorescent tube lights undermounted on the ceiling of the porch of the shed eight task lighting fixures along the center of the roof of the L house five post lights along the site driveway entrance five Light cans undermounted on the entrance of the garden shop sign plan we are permitted for five signs but only have three today and two will be replaced in the spring currently there is a sign on Hillside Street by the house driveway there is a sign at the entrance to the nursery at Forest Street there is there is a sign above the entrance to the garden shop list of vehicles the number of pieces of equipment remains unchanged and an equipment list is provided to the town each year when we replace a vehicle we confirm the purchase with the building inspector sales plan of the landscape business hours of operation the hours of the sales office are 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. Monday through Saturday and 9: a.m. to 6:00 p.m. on Sunday Sundays from 10:00 a.m. until 3:00 p.m. the Landscaping season is typically March through December annually we make a report to the building inspector of our number of employees sales volumes of any snow removal business and sales volumes of our bulk materials such as soil compost Ms and firewood on-site traffic loading deliveries the loading of the landscape business trucks occurs Monday through Friday between 7:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. Saturday between 8:00 a.m. until 5:00 p.m. and Sunday between 10:00 a.m. until 3:00 p.m. incoming deliveries are scheduled from Monday through Friday between 9:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m. if any deliveries are made outside these hours we maintain a log stating the time of the delivery and reason why it was made out of hours dumpsters the dumpster and compost pile are located to the rear of the the woodb and are screened by the soundproof fence they are schedul scheduled to be emptied weekly or as needed between 10:00 a.m. and 2: p.m. and that's in one last and for curiosity State how has the town handled business permits that have expired in the past thank you for your time and please let me know if you have any questions thank you thank you um questions from the board and just to answer we typically do not just to because I don't want to forget your question we typically do not deal with permits that expire or have an expiration date to my knowledge um I've not we haven't had any others so we haven't had to deal with the expiration so um it's unusual that we have a date if you'd like to add um to that other than um enforcement lies with the building department and not with the planning board but the original um special permit did have uh an opportunity to cure and so um I was looking at that and Maran um you you touched on that do you mind just going over that part again well there are various types of violations of course that can occur at any time mainly they're they you hear about them in the building department because because somebody complains to them the building department follows up right away on a complaint like that notifies the property owner in this case their nursery and any complaints that have Arisen have been addressed pretty promptly there's never been any followup after that this is this is a violation the the the permit expired their Nursery was operating so they're in violation now because they don't have an an active permit as soon as they were notified and I have to say thank you to the to the neighbors who who pointed it out if it wasn't going to be realized pretty soon anyway um their Nursery began to prepare their application for a new special permit because now their permit had expired incidentally um there have been expirations of special permits with the board of appeals that I've dealt with in the same way so if the permit expires the applicant has to apply for a new special permit and that's what's happening here um as far as cure of violations goes these are handled through the the building department the applicant or the Violator must be notified the Violator then has a reasonable amount of time usually 20 days at least uh depending on what the violation is to take steps to cure the violation so if you're operating out of permit because your permit is expired the obvious step to take is to apply and in this case it I believe it has to be an application for a new special permit and they did take that step they have filed the application with you and now then it's up to the board the planning board to decide will they issue the new special permit um once they take the steps to file the application then enforcement action is stay that's a procedure in the building department that at least in my experience has been the procedure I I have two questions Josh thanks for thanks for this this is helpful um and uh in advance of this I I actually did visit today just to walk the property and try to understand you know um the operation that drainage um swell uh and and everything around the shed both on both property lines so I I have a I have a current understanding of of how it is right now two questions um is there anything that hasn't been cured right is there uh uh that's one question um and the second question is for whatever the reasons are don't really matter to me how the dates slip by but what would the process have been if you had not missed the expiration date I'm not aware of any violations that haven't been cured I did notice one comment in attorney Dunn's um memo about uh permits from the fire department for um mulch something like that um and I do want you to know that before we received that memo um the a nursery told me that they had already been meeting with the fire department to make sure that they were in compliance with any regulations there is no permit required but their nursery for their mulch storage for various reasons and if anybody questions that they can go back and talk to the fire department about it but that was that was their clearly what their determination was I don't know of any open complaints that have not been addressed um had they filed on September 19th 2024 onor before they would then be simply applying for renewal of their special permit it would be the second renewal the first one was 2019 the standard for um issuing a renewal permit is uh um material compliance with all the terms of the original special permit and of any changes in terms in a sec in a first renewal so that's what they would be having to do had they applied on time since they haven't changed any of the condition they're not asking for anything different than they had in a special permit um in some ways the application is similar to what it would be but they can't have more than a three-year term as a new special permit so they will have a limit there but the question I have if we had done it on September 19th and we were granted a permit at that point in time it would be for a period of 5 years if I'm correct well it's up to the planning board okay the planning board could decide it won't be for 5 years it could be for four years could be for for a lesser term that is a deter you make that determination each time you issue a renewal or a new special permit got I'm sorry can can I I just want to continue with my question um thank you so if there's no known situation that's not cured I assume if you filed on time in September you would have been determined to be within material compliance well that that requires an inspection by the building department okay and has that happened so can I just comment I um emailed our Building Commissioner yesterday he sent a letter to me that he said he had sent uh to the board but I didn't get it through the board channels and maybe it's in Cheyenne's inbox okay but I'll just read it because it was dated as as of yesterday Milton planning board re inspection and oversight of the nursery relative to requirements of special permit and site plan approval for land landscaping business this office has reviewed the special permit documents regarding the maintenance and operation of a landscape business at 270 Hillside Street Milton Mass the property was last inspected on Friday December 6th 2024 as of today Thursday December 18th 2024 the your Nursery is compliant with the condition set forth in the special permit with site plan approval granted on September 12th 2019 it is my recommendation that the special permit with cend approval be renewed sincerely Joseph M ATU Building Commissioner so I had asked him if um he had determined that they were in compliance and if there were any outstanding um complaints so that's the response that he sent I know I know there's thanks that's helpful and that's as of the 6th I know there was a letter from uh from attorney dun that I think I got around 3:30 it's 15 pages long and based on the time it arrived and the length of it you know I I know I have it but I haven't read it I did I did read it I received it at 5:00 p.m. and I did prepare a memo in response um and I have copies which I'll give you because I although I sent them it was after 6:00 um and the reason and so that's why I tried to give you a little summary tonight um because I did read the memo pretty carefully and the bulk of the memo addresses all of the requirements under the bylaw for issuance of a special permit there's nothing wrong with that those are the requirements the point I tried to make to you earlier is that those were the requirements that the uh the nursery operation had to meet in 2016 and a permit was issued because they demonst demonstrated through evidence at a a long series of hearings that they met all of the requirements of the bylaw and um they are applying under exactly the same terms and conditions as were imposed in 2016 they're applying really for the same permit and under the same terms and conditions it is not necessary for them to produce copies of all of that evidence because you already have it in your files and the courts have it and the town prepared a a compilation of all that evidence for all of these court cases so I mean it's this thick it's many documents it's readily available and attorney dun was the attorney for those appeals and he has access to them as do the neighbors so um I'm not sure I I don't believe that we need to reargue those points and that evidence um what we do what you do need to determine is that today that the nursery is still in compliance with those terms and conditions and um that I think it's a good question to ask whether there are um complaints that have not been resolved whether there's anything left hanging that hasn't been taken care of um to the best of my knowledge there is not I'm not aware of any any other questions um we we're going to take comments from the public um and anyone on Zoom if they if they would like to um to speak to this um we we have gotten many letters in support um of this application and one one resident specifically um sent a letter that asked to be read into the record um so I just wanted to while the board is waiting to see if we we have any further um questions um let me see um yes here it is um sorry give me one second sorry my apologies okay all right great when um so we'll call on him in a second second and I'm just trying to add this in all right I'll keep looking um I'll pull this letter up but um Julia I may need you to I don't see an attachment here on the John lton letter that he asked to be read um maybe you can look at it and read it when it comes but why don't we let Mr Dunn I printed it out for you any oh you did um thank you okay um sorry just to because I didn't want to forget this um Dear Miss Hall I'm writing to express my support for theer nursery special permit renewal as a 30-year plus year resident of the Hillside Street and a longtime resident of Milton I support the renewal of the's special permit for the following reasons one as you may be aware the Oldfield family has been operating the nursery at its current location 270 Hillside Street for almost 60 years and in doing so has continued to to the unique charm has contributed to the unique charm and historic nature of our neighborhood in the town of Milton to on many occasions their Nursery has offered use of their their property for Hillside neighborhood associ association meetings 1 to two hours and other informal social outings offering coffees and hot chocolate when strolling through the nursery um all with the intent to build a sense of community and welcoming of the new and not so new neighbors three the guidelines established by the current special permit allow for the businesses and neighborhoods to operate and live in a cohesive and respectful manner for the professional business approach and folksy manner by which Maggie and Josh run the respective businesses are sense of joy and pride for many long-term and new neighbors and the citizens of the town of Milton I encourage the planning board to vote in favor of renewing the their Nursery special permit respectfully John Pete lton 100 Hillside Street so we'll add that to the the record um and now we can hear from um I don't know if um Mr John if you would like to join us at this point can you hear me yes we can hear you welcome welcome thank you um for uh for calling me um I represent uh Phil joing and John row uh they live at 23 uh Parkwood Drive which is a direct about to the the nursery site um I'd like to just say hello to attorney mcgetrick and and and Josh um as attorney mcgetrick um indicated um this has been a very long process with regards to trying to find a balance between um fa nurseries operations um and um the peaceful enjoyment and quiet enjoyment of of the neighbors uh in which it operates um it's a it's a pretty unique situation um Fair nursery and I know that that Josh alluded to it started off as a as a a family run Nursery business um in a residential neighborhood and um you know it it jelled pretty uh pretty nicely at the time I'm sure but the operation as I indicated in my memorandum um has expanded to a pretty large scale commercial Venture um in a residential neighborhood and um as I highlighted in in my memo over the years as it's grown that's created some tension between um the neighbors um and the business and uh it's it's pretty long standing and I you know I recited that uh that history um in my memorandum um but this has been a decades long wrestling match uh between uh trying to find a balance between the commercial operations and the neighborhood uh in which it is operated um you know I'm not really you know I don't know of really any other commercial Venture that operat of its size in a a a residential district so you know there's there's been a there's been a back and forth between the neighbors and the business as to try to find a balance and you know the pendulum is swung both ways um you know 2013 um the the zba precluded the the business from operating and it swung back the other way with regards to a a citizen petition that was Advanced by fa and approved by town meeting that ultimately resulted in the Landscaping amendment that provided the zoning relief um that um the fa operators applied for and were granted in 2016 but the the the 2016 um process with regards to U the information that there was required to submit um the the the plans the inspections of the property I mean that was that was very intense intensive and it was intensive for a reason because uh I think that the this board the planning board as it was comprised in in 2016 recognized that this was a this was a longstanding issue and if this was if their Nursery was going to be able to continue to operate in this residential district it had to make some um some compromises with regards to how it operated how it controlled its activities um in this residential neighborhood and so the the and I'm just giving you a background on how we arrived at both the the bylaw requirements and the special permit that was ultimately issued and then the the um the oy permit that ultimately issued because each one of those was a process um with back and forth with with each deciding uh Authority um considering detailed current information um with regards to the activities that they're was proposing to undertake at the property and what they were going to do to mitigate and then confirming that those mitigation um measures were installed so at this point what there is asking is they're asking for a new special permit and and the bylaw um you know in in the Preamble itself um talks about a special permit shall satisfy all requirements specified in you know 275-3145 pages and that's outlined in um in my memorandum and so what what what what the is asking the planning board to do is basically adopt the information that it provided to the planning board nine years ago um to apply for a new special permit and the only reason why they're they they're applying for a new special permit now is because they were in they they were in uh they allowed that the first special permit or the renewed special permit from 2019 to lapse and my clients were forced to bring an enforcement action or request to the the building inspector um to look into that and that's what prompted the um the submission of the of the the new application for a special permit so the the requirements of the of the bylaw that we're talking with the Landscaping Amendment are pretty clear as to you know what needs to be submitted to the board what type of evaluation needs to be done attorney mettrick and I were part of that process in 2016 that's the type of process proc that needs to be implemented now with regards to the application of a of of a new special permit that they're seeking so this is I mean we got to start this whole thing a new and I understand I haven't seen the building commissioner's recent letter but from what was read into the record it sounds like a just a it's painting with an extremely broad brush to cover you know at least 18 to 24 requirements that can't be done in you know a simple one man and walk through site inspection I mean like I said this was a this was a a process in 2016 with regards to the submission of dra a detailed drainage plan and understanding its functionality um a landscaping plan to understand that that it was going to create a buffer with regards to uh noise and light to surrounding neighbors and you know I understand where um where where Josh is is saying that you know you we we did this in 20 2016 well there's been no verification and this is this would even be required if they were renewing their permit to show that there's been material compliance with the existing terms to the special permit that's just I mean it's it's it hasn't been done right so you know as much as I would love love to to to take Josh and and Maggie and and the their Nursery Representatives at their word that the 2015 because that's when the the information was submitted if you look the plans that were submitted by the old field and support of their application um the 2015 that's the way things remain 9 years later on the ground and those conditions are the exact same and functioning the exact same way that they were intended to mitigate the effect of the commercial activities on the surrounding residential neighborhood it's you know as Ronald Reagan said trust but verify I mean the reason why there's these requirements in this in the special permit um provision uh the Landscaping amendment is so there there is a verification process there is a vetting process to make sure what their says they're going to do what Their says is at the property is actually there and is actually functioning in the manner that it's supposed to function and only when that occurs can there be Harmony between the the commercial activities at the property and the residential neighbors um in the neighborhood that it's functioning in so um you know we're not asking to you know flat out deny the permit now what we're saying is the application is incomplete and and what we need to do is is go through the process um that was outlined in the um in the bylaw amendment in the Landscaping Amendment and in the 2016 special permit because that's I mean that's what's allowed um this business to be able to operate in relative Harmony in the neighborhood for the last you know 8 years so um to to I don't think that this we're at a point where we can just rubber stamp um the application by relying on 9-year-old stale information so um you know I'll let for the rest of it I'll let my my memo speak for itself but um you know I think that the the application is incomplete we need some more um we need some verification as to the representations that are made with there um either whether it's a site inspection or a more detailed findings by the by The Building Commissioner as to each of the requirements that's spelled out in the Landscaping Amendment how and why those requirements are satisfied because we we are a we're looking this is a new special perit that again and I'll close on this requires satisfaction of all of the elements I mean that's on the second sentence of the of the bylaw Amendment and that's that's because it's it's a new one but even if we were talking about renewing it there would still have to be um information provided to this board that there's been material compliance other than you know a three-word sentence from the building inspector respectfully so there's really too much at stake um with regards to how the neighbors particularly my clients and and the other people on Parkwood Drive um are affected by the operations at there to just kind of let this slide and rubber stamp it so um you know I'll close on that and I I'll rely on the information that's um that's provided in my Meo I thank you for your time great any questions for Matthew Dunn from the board members I guess I I I have one question uh Matthew thank you for for what you wrote and for your explanation um what conditions that uh what conditions that the special primary requires um are they not meeting right now well I can tell can you still hear me I can sure okay okay okay um so one of the issues that is starting to to to creep in and I can always speak for my clients um is the drainage issue um I know that the the sound um the sound attenuation issue um is affecting their ability to use and enjoy their home um so those are those are those are two um can you be specific what can you before leave those can you what about the drainage is is uh are they not meeting the condition so there's there's supposed to be there's there's a couple of things right there's a uh there's a drainage mitigation plan that's that's supposed to be functionality and it's supposed to prevent water from spilling off of the the the nursery site onto a Butter's property of which my clients is G right and so um they've experienced some water filtration in their home um in the you know as sort of we've gotten further away from um the implementation of the mitigation measures that they initially put in into place in 2016 um there's been some deterioration with respect to the um the Landscaping plan um that was designed to um sh or um Shield the activities at there uh visually from um from the neighbors the sound attenuation again um the the lighting mination I know is a factor um so I mean this is the thing if if you just this stuff the the mitigation you know over time it it'll deteriorate and that's what we're kind of starting to observe um and and um you know the it needs to be updated it needs to be refreshed it needs to be able to function in the manner contemplated in the 2016 special permit so Mr sorry we have a question from one of the board members I just wanted to ask you you you rattled off a few things there and the um as far as their Nursery um said tonight and as far as the Building Commissioner said yesterday there are no outstanding complaints so were complaints filed on all of these items that you just um rattled off and were they not addressed or uh can you explain that were were complaints filed with regards to the things that you just said that were of concern that weren't properly holding up properly you said the storm water the lighting the landscape buffer um you said that those weren't uh meeting the permit but yet um I I understand there's no outstanding complaint so are are these new as of today or are these issues that have been on ongoing or I guess I'm trying to understand if these are things that are of concern when did they become of concern and did you you notify anybody in advance of today that these were of concern well we my fly again the reason why we're here is because my client made a um a zoning enforcement request to the Building Commissioner with regards to the non compliance um with the terms of the of the permit which is theyve allowed it to lapse right and so the opportunity opport voice our complaints is is my understanding would be at this very procedure and the obligation is onfair to show that the mitigation measures that are required under the bylaw are satisi unless I'm reading at least I'm reading the bylaw wrong I think that that's what that's that's the the burn is unfair to be able to demonstrate that so attorney dun I I want to go back to the Four Points you made um the drainage mitigation you also made a reference to the landscape buffer deterioration uh you made a reference to sound mitigation and you made a reference to lighting mitigation what deterioration specifically um I I looked at the sound mitigation I I'd like to understand what you mean by deterioration of the sound mitigation I'd like to understand what you mean by mitigation or or non-performance of any of those four items specifically Matt would you mind well I think if we Matt would you mind if I if I responded to this would you mind it's Phil no no I don't mind at all police support I just what order you guys want take there come to the table please you have to be very specific about just state your name and address my name is Phil Joe Henning I live at 23 Parkwood Drive you have to be very specific about what the special permit says and the special permit says that behind my house there will be roded endrin or U Mountain Laurel planted it's never been planted never been there um we have uh made complaints in the past and what happens is the the building commissioner or the zoning enforcement commissioner comes and says oh everything's okay and then we have to go to the zba the zba requires that that um there be a unanimous uh uh vote against the building commissioner which never happens so every time we want to make a complaint um we go through this process we hear that the uh Building Commissioner just like here says oh everything's fine then we go to the zba we spend over $500 and there's not a unanimous vote does does that mean the problem is really solved no it does not what it means is that the process is so frustrating to a neighbor that we never get satisfaction so if we disagree with the Zone uh zoning board of appeals where do we go we go to Superior Court do you know how much that costs the effort that we have to make the money that we have to spend in in order to get proper enforcement is outrageous and so why would I do that why would I do that show you know why would I go through this every time um I've gone through it several times we can check with the uh zoning board of appeals to see how many times I have presented myself to the zoning board of appeals it makes no sense so what we're doing is we're talking about it here because you are required to say that there's been compliance with the terms of the special permit and the idea was that there would be Mountain Laurel or rododendron because if you look at my neighbors um they have these huge rododendron plants that are very dense and they're a really good Shield that's what's supposed to be behind my house it never was there and you might say well deer eat red endrin but they don't eat Mountain Laurel let's put Mountain Laurel there let's give us uh the the idea of the mountain laurel was a densely planted Mountain Laurel to uh mitigate noise and dust I've never ever ever had them I didn't have them in 2 2016 I didn't have them in 2019 um with respect to um flooding we did uh uh my understanding is that um there's supposed to be an Engineers report presented annually to um the town engineer I requested from Meredith a copy of the of the report I didn't get it I did talk to Julia Julia told me um well uh do you want Maggie to call you and I said to Julia what can Maggie tell me about what the town engineer got or did get um so today I made a complaint to um uh the uh Secretary of State because I didn't get any kind of record of the uh Professional Engineers report of the drainage system we have suffered um flooding in our basement um this year because there was um there was a Clogg drain um at their Nursery I am 69 years old I've had type 1 diabetes for over 60 years I have a heart condition and I was lugging um my wet Drive act up my basement steps to dump it onto my driveway um you know what good is it um you know to to say everything's okay because it isn't I didn't get the report that I believe is supposed to be provided every year um it isn't it doesn't seem to be there uh Julia provided me with the logs and she said here are the logs what do the logs tell me about whether the drainage system is effective or not if I had to drag water out of my basement at my age you know these are the things that happened to us um these are the things that uh Joe Atway and um Joe praac all say oh I don't see a problem I want mitigation I want my dust relief I want an effective drainage system that's what I want and I think that we could live with that um if we had it um the at at around Christmas time I have complained uh before to the zba after I was told by the building inspector that there was no problem about lighting during the Christmas tree season and there's always an excuse like the light is shining right into my bedroom window and I think like is this necessary why can't they turn it off when the business hours are over and I think um either mag I think Maggie said well it's for security yeah but that's not what the permit says it says the lights are turned off at at at the close of the business day so turn them off you know let me have peace um and and so that's what we're talking about we're talking about um non- enforcement across the board by the town of Milton to specific requirements of the special permit and so everybody can say everything's perfect there's no problems tell me that on the night I'm car like at around midnight when I'm carrying buckets of water out of my basement um you know it's it's an extremely frustrating life uh and uh you know I I just can't say any more than that I mean I I think uh it's you know it's nice to have the open space of the nursery behind us um but I would like to see exact compliance with the terms of the special permit and I think we could probably live with that um but I don't think we see exact compliance and that's what I think this hearing should be about I think we should be talking here about exact compliance I noticed um that uh the trees um on the uh southern boundary of uh theer Nursery are are no longer there at the very bottom um and I thought well what happened to them um you know I I do get concerned about whether there need to be additional requirements about uh storage of fertilizers storage of urban side storage of uh weed uh chemicals like where should they be exactly what should the container be exactly um what kind of spill protection should be around the containers um I get concerned about a wood barn full of wood um and um near a fuel a fueling facility and I say to myself okay Barn can be okay but what about fire um mitigation inside the barn it's full of firewood do you know what happened in the Blue Hills this summer do you drive down Hillside Street and see all the burned uh uh trees all all burned up um could that happen like I remember one of the neighbors said um to one of the fire guys could that be coming in our Direction and uh he said no you're probably okay what about next time so should we make make sure that we have some protection in the wood barn it contains Kil dried firewood uh should we have sprinklers something um to make sure if that barn goes up it's right on my property line and right on the property line of the cards like what happens if that happens and what happens if it's during the dry time of the summer you know should I be concerned I think I should um you know I don't want my house burning down so you know there are just a number of things some things I would like to see added for my protection about Fire and Fire mitigation um some things I would like to see to make sure that um we don't have like what are the particulars about um uh fuel uh fuel containment um if fuel is those are actually those are not within our jurisdiction those but okay you we're limited on what our jur but still I mean safety is is an important part of the uh subsection n um so uh whoever needs to provide safety to me and my husband you know where do we include that how do we incorporate that um I think we can live peacefully together I think we can live happily together so long as there's precise exact compliance with the the requirements of subsection n and the 2019 permit which actually is just corrections to the 20 or changes to the 2016 so if we can determine that there's exact compliance like Vehicles okay you get a list of vehicles in the permit it talks about what are the the ways that we gauge similarity like gross weight um you know I I don't remember what they all are but they're all in there so if they Nursery is going to provide me with a list of vehicles I want to know okay what's the gross weight what's the there are maybe three or four parameters that are supposed to determine whether a vehicle is like or not like um you know I have complained before to Joe praac that a a Mercedes truck is not the same as a sprinter van and so what is this Mercedes truck um and he claimed they're they're identical or they're alike they're like how could it how could a truck be the same as a van I don't get it so let's take a look at the parameters that are contained in the original special permit the 2016 let's see them laid out on spreadsheet okay we've got this this and this what are their what are their like or not like things you know why don't we take a deeper dive into this why don't we make sure that all of the conditions of 2012 continue to exist to this day you know I I think that's important and when it talks about quantities of material sold okay they included in their new application 2023 what about 2022 what about 2021 what about the entire period of this permit how where is all that information I requested I made a records request asking um when did the uh building inspector go to the office of the nursery and review the records there are requirements in the special permit About Records when did he go and see them you know my experience was when I when he wrote back to me about the uh he wrote back to Matt Dunn about the expiration of the permit um you know actually said um he indicated that he had never even read the special permit to tell you the truth he said oh they've been there for such a long time that's not what's in the permit you know if we're going to talk I don't think he really knew what was in the permit when he went and did his review I mean it takes like Matt said it takes a long time to make sure there's exact compliance and he did not do that because I don't think he's ready it because his answer to Matt dun indicated that he hadn't he he based his failure to go and do anything about the special permit the expiration of the special permit he based that on um oh they've been there forever they have been there forever but they haven't been under a special permit forever and it was because of my efforts that the um sub subsection n was created and a special permit was created and conditions were created and we need to make sure that all those conditions are respected and if he's not going to go and look at the records then we don't know whether the records are there or not but that's a requirement of the permit or you know that's that's the way it is so we need to do a deeper dive we can't just say oh sounds good out of respect for me my husband my neighbors we need to make sure that everything is copacetic that's the way I see it um and when uh um when their attorney said um there's or when Josh said there's some kind of steel fence that steel fence is is uh defined in the permit I don't see a steel fence maybe I don't know steel but I don't see a steel fence so either um we have to make sure there's exact compliance or maybe there's a change but we can't have stuff written in a permit and not abided by like red dendrin like mountain laurel like that makes a difference to me and it's not just a detail it was it was promised to me that's what happened when the special permit was written but it's never been delivered and no matter what I say to the Building Commissioner and no matter what I do at the zba I just get you know go away that's not right that's not the way this should be we should both be respected you know and that's the idea of the special permit okay can I yes yes you um thank you for some of this explanation um some of it to me anyway appears to be pretty simple you know the mountain laal is either there or it's not there if it was did you see it let me know yeah I I I don't even know where it's supposed to be I assume behind my house it's the yellow one yeah I was I was not so intrusive so I don't know if it's there or it's not there I trust what you said but some of these things are pretty simple it's a plant that's either there or not there if it's not there why isn't it there was there some was something else put in its place I mean there were some basic things if no it's specified there are two plants that are supposed to be behind my house either one or there okay I I was not on the board back in 19 or in 16 so I'm I'm a bit at a loss uh but somebody else must have been an engineers's report if there's one supposed to be submitted annually and it hasn't been submitted that seems to be pretty clear lighting staying on after hours that's pretty clear the lighting is either on after hours or it's not on after hours right I mean that's that's to be fair to be fair to Josh it doesn't happen that often okay but during the Christmas season it happens okay okay so so I you know I think your concerns need to be addressed um as mer said the fire concern um and I do have an understanding where the fuel's stored and I do have an understanding where the barn is and I don't see the bar on your property line but I understand your question and and the fire department is responsible for managing fuel storage and how it's I asked him exactly what CMR he follows right and um to issue the permit I believe in in talking to the State Fire Marshall years ago my understanding was that the uh our fire department had to inspect the fuel uh the fueling area on an annual basis yeah uh they issued a they issued a permit in 2015 and it had no expiration date on it then they issued another one in 2019 which expired in 2020 and another one wasn't issued until 2022 I asked U the chief well why why is that and he said oh it was covid um and he said you know um some regulations were and and I guess I want to know do you have a piece of paper that says that this regulation was suspended I I don't know yeah okay and and I I guess in closing on my comments anyway and I'll continue to evaluate what Mr dun sent in and take a look at that but um the commissioner can speak for himself with regard to your comments about the commissioner but but it appears he didn't have any complaints that were open I know because I'm not going to complain to him I did complain about the expiration and he didn't shut down the the landscaping business did he and I'm not going to go to the zba because it takes a unanimous vote and they'll probably just say oh it's okay okay um you know why should I go through this I you have not given me in this document a channel that works and um you know we can go back and try to determine how many times I've gone before the zba only to get shot down you know why should I go through that at $500 a pop you know and do you want me to go to norol County Superior Court I've been there before and you know we have been successful because we did get um a ruling that they could not operate um uh on their site and that's what mitigate that's what caused the uh the uh Amendment to the zoning bylaws so you know um if you're recommending that I do that I'm not making any recommendation I'm I'm just saying you know I'm just being factious but um I'm trying to develop an understanding that's all we're understanding why why we I've been on this board for four years this is the first I've ever heard of you've never come before us before um so you're not part of the chain actually uh you're not part of the complaint mechanism um as far as I know the complaint mechanism is um the building inspector actually the the zba the first is the operators I'm looking at section 10 of the 2016 permit and the first is an informal procedure is a complaint to the applicant and um and there's like four paragraphs related to that so I don't know um if I always have the right to go to the building inspector you do but it says that I always have the right to go to the building of course you do but in terms of what the permit says the permit says that there's an informal procedure and it says the applicant shall have an operator authorized Etc any person who believes that the applicant has failed to comply with any provision of of the subsection n or the special permit May deliver mail or email a written complaint addressed at their nursery and then once that is received um after rece a such a written complaint the applicant if it determines to have Merit they shall promptly cure it so there's there as you know I was on the board in 2016 and 2019 with both of these permits I'm the only one still here and I I do remember we went through with in great detail um a lot in the permit and tried to craft a permit that would provide uh ways to measure whether it was compliance right we all worked hard on that and it may not be working perfectly but we did want to try and have the applicant to be able to run a business and to know that if there was a complaint that was easily handled that they could take care of that in a neighborly way and then if that didn't work you go to more formal procedures so have you tried the informal procedure the first procedure of going to um there and asking them to take care of there was a very ugly meeting um with a lot of neighbors from the hillside neighborhood association and um you know they were uh incredibly hostile to John and I and who was hostile to you the hillside some people from the hill can can I be heard you if I and I'm sorry to to interr please the pl is it okay if I if I Chim in here sure okay so so like I said before um you I recognize that um the um Madam uh plan board member was was a part of the board 2016 2019 and so the and I was actually part of the um the process um of the development of of the land giving Amendment and part of the intent of the amendment was to try to eliminate grounds to complain for complaints right the the the purpose of of the um enforceability of the special permit of the requirements of of of the approved plans um to ensure that the um the functionality of for example the drainage mitigation system it was to avoid void inundating the town with complaints from a Butters with regards to you know flood you know complaining about flooding issues or lighting issues or or various violations of the zoning code right it was to it was to get the to get the property in compliance with the requirements of the bylaw um particularly the the Landscaping amendment to avoid having to make complaints in the first place and so we're at an opportunity we have an opportunity right now to to assess the the nursary site to determine whether it complies with the requirements of the bylaw Amendment right and if it doesn't there has an opportunity to make the corrections that are necessary in order for it to comply and then there would be no there would be no complaints there would be no you know further you know escalation of uh um the process that uh that Val line with regards to identifying issues for there because those issues had you'd already have resolved them before the issue arises you know that the that the drainage system is functioning you know that the that the cell mitigation system is is is up and operational the way it's supposed to be you know the light mitigation is there right it's not a huge heavy lift I don't think for fair or for the board to make sure that there is and again this is just going back to if there was a renewal we're not talking about a renewal here we're talking about a new special permit and so it's not it's not a heavy lift to to require fair to show and establish because it is their burden that they've materially complied with the requirements of the bylaw Amendment mean that's even lowering the standard right but it's to do that is going to actually save the resources of everybody in this room um going forward right and so um like I said the the intent of the bylaw Amendment the intent of the 2016 special permit was to have to create a balance with regards to their's ability to operate in a manner that is consistent or acceptable for the residents of this residential neighborhood and um you know that's that's why it's there um you know I think that we have an opportunity um to avoid um you know sort of endless complaints whether it's from Mr joen or from you know another neighbor with regards to this because like I said you're going to have um assurance that um the requirements the plans the specifications the rules they're all outlined um in the um in the bylaw Amendment or comply with so Attorney D this is um Sean again one of the planning board members is that your ask to demonstrate that uh there's in compliance with the uh special permanent amendments is that is that really what we're talking about just that yeah that's yeah you're not trying to introduce new issues you just want to make sure that they're in compliance with the amendment that they would have renewed on the 19th of September right so so the process in 2016 it's a you know public rec and I'm sure the the board has access to to the file um you know it was it was the submission of information to the board to show hey we put in this drainage mitigation plan and this is how it's going to work and and then this is how it did work right because they Fair couldn't operate um you know until they got an occupany permit um showing that the the measures that they said they were going to implement had actually been implemented and I mean I think that that's why you've had this relatively quiet period with regards to disputes over there other than the you know the the the process of of the you know whether it's been approved or not approved running its way through the you know through the through the land court right um it's not really about it wasn't really about um you know actual complaints per se it was about the the you know is is the bylaw Amendment valid was the spe are the applicants um eligible for the zoning Rel that was provided um you know I I think that you know the the process that was implemented with regards to the bylaw Amendment and then requiring there to comply with the requirements of the bylaw Amendment function in the way that it was intended to function right and at this point you have again they're relying on 9-year-old information um to try to to get a new special permit and you know I don't like I said I don't think it's a it's a it's a heavy ask to say wait a second there you need to show that what you did in 2016 is still functioning in the manner and in the way that it was when you received the Occupy permit in 2017 to be able to do what you're do was that the ask in 2019 2019 I thought they only they had to show material compliance for renewing so yeah that that was that was the ask so was it really 9 years or is it 5 years it see it seems to me I'm just I'm just I'm just working with it is confusing so what what they did is in 2019 they also relied on the 2015 material that they they submitted in support of their 2016 application I know it's a lot of dates no it's it's not I mean it's pretty simple attorney done but but it you know it seems you know I guess what I'm curious about is what have been the complaints over the last 5 years The Last 5 Years From yeah I I'm I'm wondering if they've generally been in compliance whether or not Mr Joe hanning that the lights were on at Christmas time you know that's possible but if Over The Last 5 Years there haven't been a series of complaints annually then I would I would I'm surmising that they've been in compliance well I I don't this is the thing I I don't we can't get on to their Nursery site to to to to inspect whether they're complying with whether the the site plan looks exactly the way they said it looked in 2016 whether the the sound mitigation system is in the same condition it was in 2016 as required by the bylaws like we can't do that you guys have the opportunity to do that and that was that was the that was the intent of the the the bylaw amendment that was the intent of the 2016 special permit to have you guys go in there and say hey you know what there has done a really good job at complying with all the requirements of what's set forth here they are in substantial and material compliance with what we asked of them here's your special permit but to but to rely on they're saying hey we did it and and not go not sort of scratch um you know on the surface of that and look a little bit deeper you know I I don't think that that's I I think that that's not what's contemplated in and and that's what's required in in this bylaw Amendment okay it's getting late so I won't continue this but I just one in in reply Attorney D to your comment um first the planning board's not responsible for enforcing a special permit that probably is the building inspector's responsibility but even that being said the building inspector wouldn't just out of course go to any special permit in the town of Milton to look and see if it's in compliance he would respond to a complaint that's how I believe the commissioner would would address things so that that was just let me finish please so that was my question that was my question if there were if there were a series of complaints that probably would prompt the commissioner to visit to determine if compliance or not so I I don't want to go on any further because I know you're going to tell me it's late so so so so just just to address that and I don't mean to try to get the last word I really don't but the the the reason why there's there's expiration dates on these special permits is so there is a review of things compliance with the terms of the special permit that's the whole purpose of the expiration date and so the to talk about the you know you TR to make a complaint to the building inspector yeah maybe right but that doesn't that doesn't relieve there of their obligation to show that they're complying with the terms of the special permit that's all I'll say about that yeah no I understand an attorney done I'm not trying to get the last word in either but I I hardly believe that Mr johenning would wait if 3 years ago there was something that he wasn't satisfied with that had wait until the end of the permit to address it if you want me to tell you it doesn't do me any good yeah you said that I can go back to my my complaints to um Joe praac I can tell you um you know what they were in the special permit there's a requirement for light Shields and I complained that the light Shields weren't there um and and uh Joe prond said well you know it's it's okay and then I go to the zoning board of appeals and they say it's okay too what good does it do me what good do it on this except it enables me to spend 500 bucks so can I just uh suggest giving the hour and the nature of what we've said so surely you have a record or the building department has a record of these um this correspondence back and forth of what he said in response to you and since uh complaints are to be in writing we can ask the building department for a list of any complaints and how they were resolved and then it won't be like he said she said that's great yeah um so I I think we can also ask the engineering department for what they have on record in terms of reports that have been filed um one thing I want to say uh is uh whether Things Are working precisely as they were intended is very subjective because um what one might consider to be adequate noise buffer or odor buffer or dust buffer is a subjective unless you have a um a measurable record which is the criteria at the outset of the permit and I don't believe in looking through the permit um again that there was something measurable about duster noise and so then it does become become a judgment on the building official and so we would you know for to know whether something is compliant or not Material material and substantial was something that was discussed and um you know M if there was a need to uh change the fence material or a plant material did they have to come back to the planning board every single time and there were adjustments made to say you know to address that so I think it's important to go back and and look at the language in the uh original permit and in the amendment because they were um it was a lot of discussion in that preceded them and um and then I think at we're going to continue this hearing we received a lot of material today with not a lot of um time to read it and absorb it so I don't think it's uh appropriate for us not to continue it and especially given the hour of 11 and there might be people who wanted to speak who are either still waiting on Zoom or have left because of the hour and so I do think we need to provide opportunity for that as well um so I I do think that um we should ask the I say something building official sure can I finish one we asked the building official um for the for those records and we ask the engineering uh department for those records and then of course it's Meredith who will grant the one so I will say we it was posted and provided the um the the reports that you were asking for I think you seem to be under the impression that those reports are supposed to be by a certified engineer which is not what is in the special permit I just want to read real quickly because it is late um there's a under um under the drainage plan number two storm waterer operation and maintenance plan storm water operation and maintenance plan is attached as exhibit e and is part of the special permit its Provisions are requirements the special permit and shall be enforcable as such the provisions include inspections of the stone BM after rain events maintenance of the burm and required annual inspection and cleaning of the detention area and SWA an annual report shall be submitted to the town engineer documenting documenting the maintenance of the system so what's required is a documentation and those are the logs that we have provided you they're on public public I have a copy of them here but those logs are the maintenance by the operator um and those are the annual report shall be submitted to the town engineer documenting the maintenance of the system applicants shall be make this Avail this available as this report um in paragraph 10 review required records then there is separately item three interim storm water report the applicants shall hire a storm water engineer to review implementation of the drainage provisions and written reports to the planning board and the town engineer on the effectiveness of the drainage 12 months after and 24 months after the completion of the installation of the system they have also had those inspected by Professional Engineers and complied with that so wasn't there a change uh to the two 2019 permit that uh talks about an annual report that should be provided to the uh by it simply adds a date of those reports which was not previously included so I just wanted to say that we have I have not withheld any reports everything that you have are the maintenance reports that Josh Oldfield performs and it's on a ongoing regular basis he checks those that those BMS are um according to the reports and the log um our leafes are you know it's cleaned out and it's um to me it appears to be um everything that was required in the special permit is is met but I have had flooding so I guess we need to do something else is not I mean you're at the foot of the blue hill so I we have a lot of water issues in this town um but I respect um your concerns but that's also sep we can do a site visit and you can come to my backyard and you can see where the water runs through my Arbor VY so you know you're welcome so we we do it is late and I want for everybody you know certainly you to have um an ample question I know it's just it's late at this point we're going to continue the we're going to continue the public hearing so you will have an opportunity and and you sorry the other hands ra yeah so with respect to um this document this permit that's almost 50 pages say it's very clear who the enforcement officer is there's no gray area here and that's the building inspector and as of two days ago he said he recommends you renew our permit you should renew the permit right now he's the enforcement officer he's the guy you guys said who should be the sheriff on this and he did a site visit and he said you should grant us our permit so as part of the public hearing I think we did get information late and IED yeah no we we we did get some things just late from um from the um the attorney so would we like and we do have other people who would like to speak who we I'm sure would like to um speak in support of this application but yeah Josh I mean I would love as a member of the planning board having sat here for 4 hours tonight to have things up operate the way you would like for for an item to come before the board and be decided upon tonight that would make me a very happy planning board member um but to be fair to Mr Joe Henning um and and I I honestly I don't mind saying this to attorney done I don't appreciate getting something at 3:30 in the afternoon for a 7:00 meeting so they now that happens all the time it's not just this particular one so but you know to give Mr Joe hanning the opportunity for us to review that to understand it and you know and just not try to rush 50 pages that we've prepared over hundreds of thousands of dollars yeah and now you can't issue a permit tonight based on the guy who's supposed to enforce it says should be granted what's the purpose of it it's just sorry could I speak briefly um by the way I understand exactly how you feel Josh because we've been you know this is kind of these are the issues that arise with their nursing and so we do have these we yeah so I know you're going to continue it and that's fine um whatever information you feel you need if you can let um Josh olfield know I will certainly try to help gather information if that's necessary um I can only repeat that the yeah the enforcement mechanism is through the building inspector I've been working with the Joseph prac the previous building inspector for years years on this permit and Joseph prond made many visits to the nursery and there were many small details that had to be worked over and worked over in terms of whether they were done or not at one point the planning board did a site site plan re uh visit certain members of the planning board reviewed the plantings these things you know there's so many details in that permit um if there is a you know a live issue that that hasn't been responded to they will respond to it um and otherwise the problem with this process is if you come to this point where you apply for a renewal or a new special permit and you hear things and you don't have complaints in your own office that you've received and had an opportunity to respond to then then you haven't had due process you have to have an opportunity to hear the complaint and to deal with it to cure it if possible and then a determination has to be made it's cured or it's not cured so you know whatever the vehicle is if there's a complaint that's the process that the applicants are entitled to you can't do it in one meeting if you have some issues that are live so I just issu well maybe not that would be a great result for their Nursery we know that yeah but Josh we're all set because there really isn't more that we can say tonight I just wanted to again um sort of agree that's the process and I also agree the planning board needs to gather the information that they felt they they heard tonight that they needed to get get responses for so if there's anything I can do let me know um I I can deal better you know I can deal with the legal issues or the the status what's happening at the air Nursery that's for Josh Oldfield to respond to and he will so thank you um this is a copy of a response letter that I did thank you to um attorney gun so again that I didn't get it done till 6 o' thank you understandable um I have a copy yeah this one is the resp so with with that and I appreciate everyone people online that Julia said so for a while that who would like to speak you know what I I think if we open it we'll have to open it to everyone so I do want to with this being continued allow everybody to to have the opportunity to speak before any decision is is made so I apologize for those who are online who have not yet had a chance you certainly will have a chance to speak um to continue the hearing um the public hearing we have a lot on the sixth so I'm wondering if we should not consider moving it to the 23rd or do we feel like we can maybe resolve it on the 6th or try to resolve it on the what do we have on the six we have mapc and we have the zoning articles I think we have umet and 10 B 10 Basset I don't see all that happening in one meeting yeah that's that that in itself is a lot yeah um one thing I think that would be helpful is if we could have a special meeting to address this as a separate since we can't get on the six your way well one thing I think that would be helpful I mean you could have a special meeting but in my while I'm away but if um you know the typically when we have an you know this is a little unusual because it's a a new application which should have really been a renal but in the past we've liked to have staff reports so you know on the how the planning department you know views the application so I'm wondering if we could ask for more detail from The Building Commissioner since it's in he's the enforcement officer so just ask him to elaborate on the letter that he provided already um because and then you know to the question of whether I think whether there have been unresolved uh issues that he's aware of um he said no but you know if there's something in the record in the last 3 years since the last renewal then we should know that and I I think that can can serve as our staff report in a way for the last five years right going back to 19 19 was it 19 19 19 5 years 5 years so even Joe Pond's records are available if you know if you could just pull the records and that would be serve as our staff report in in essence uh because uh I mean honestly I a lot of that original documentation and compliance um was met before they got their certificate of occupancy or they wouldn't be able to I don't see any reason for us to go back and say that we need to re-review what was already completed what we're supposed to really be looking at is um has there been compliance since then since all of the initial installation was done um and the documentation of what was done is in is in the um as built survey yeah as built document you know and in my work today and it would be helpful to hear what the building department had to say because I I imagine if he was out there there'd be some record you know there should be some record you know if he made a visit but you know from and and what I saw today when I was out there um I spent an hour uh walking the site I mean my background is construction I've spent 40 years in construction I didn't see any visible deterioration of what existed you know I just couldn't see that so maybe I have to walk again and take another look you know at the sound mitigation on the fence um I don't understand what you said about steel I saw wood post large wood post with a membrane that is the sound mitigation barrier I saw a really really big Swale maybe 500 ft long really wide with a with an impressive you know embankment on the side that's your property side um I mean it looked it looked really good to me um but uh but anyhow it I think it'd be valuable information for us to hear what the building department has had you know over the course of The Last 5 Years and I and you know I know Josh is frustrated I think that's what we should do you know I think we should find out from the billing department what you know what's happened whether it's been currently under Joe or previously under Joe praac so is that something Meredith that can you follow up with before our next meeting yeah I just I'll do that and then to your question I think I do think the 23rd probably makes the most sense in terms of really having time to do it yeah since the other with Matt to see if he's available yeah that's good Matt are you available on the 23rd yeah yeah it should be yes okay okay thank you that's great so we'll have to set a time to um because we don't have any other public hearings I think at that point so 710 on the we have um have we said another on the that's okay I mean and that was at 7:05 705 that's 705 so we'll say 710 okay okay um make a motion to to continue the public hearing public hearing for their Nursery special permit for 710 under January 23rd yes I'll second it then second all in favor I and thank you to those who have been online waiting to speak you will absolutely we um hope you can join us and we'll have an opportunity to speak so thank you thank you for you to sign good evening think pass all my bed times y thank you okay thank you thank you okay so now at this time oops I just so now I would entertain a motion to adjourn the meeting make a motion to adjourn the meeting second second all in favor I I thank you e