e e e for e e for e for e so we just we just need press that down and then take that off okay welcome everybody to the April 25th 20124 his historic preservation commission meeting this is a regular meeting of the Montclair historic preservation commission notice has been given in accordance with the open public meetings act by posting a copy of the notice on the first floor of the municipal building and by sending a copy to the Monclair times The Star Ledger and the Harold news we are being broadcast live on Channel 34 Montclair and we are also being remotely streamed on YouTube and we have Fierce competition tonight because the uh mayoral debates are taking place as we speak so our Tech person is not here tonight so we will remain live throughout the meeting we will have no dead zones so just for everyone to know um fa would you please take the role of course Kathleen Bennett present Michael Graham here John ryit here uh Sten Rooney he's been excused okay Nicholas Juliano here um Janine Bower here Steven smolen here okay thank you and I'd like to welcome Steven smolen he is our new HP consultant um so he has uh looked over all the over the two applications that we've we have tonight and I know that our applicants have received copies of his review um so moving forward we go to approval of the minutes and we have to approve the minutes of January 18th 2024 and also February 22nd 2024 um so I for the January 18th 2024 was every is everyone here present that can vote Mr Ryman okay so Mr rymond has well you're listed as present on January January 18th January 18th okay well maybe I was here I've gone for at least one of them right now um this is when the jackon bation was what um that was sorry it was Bloomfield Avenue 3:30 to 334 Bloomfield Avenue oh is this the restoration of the church yeah this was the um the former Church property that's now an office complex they moved to Sculpture Park is that the one we're talking about no no January the January one is the um sorry also E Street E Street where the the dance the dance studio I think you were there I remember I think um hold on wait wait I think you recused yourself from one of the votes or was from was Silver's project let me see you were accused yourself from Mr Silver's project yes okay then I was yes and then um I was not here for that initial application so I can only vote on a portion of the of the minutes okay so how many people do we have to vote on this two for the January 18th meeting I can vote on the second half of the okay minutes so before we move move forward there's there are um there are a couple of um or maybe there aren't I'm sorry no no they what no but my question uh fawa is on page two lines 7 through 10 where you have a partial improvements Pro partial approval of minutes from December I didn't understand what that was but that was when I had to recuse myself but those lines hold oning half of the minutes you didn't approve all of them right so let's so let's go to the December uh 14th it's just a question of context uh um it says Miss Bennett was sworn in for cross examination that's when I came back in and then I think the next two things are um the exhibits that they they offered which is A2 and A1 I just don't know it's out of context you see December 14th page three you don't have that okay you see you see what that means are we this is this is December 14th okay so look on page three and line 27 27- 29 line 27 says Miss Bennett was sworn in for cross-examination and then it says A2 and point I'll I'll revise it uh it's the exhibits correct the appc introduce the right so that's all it need that's introd okay so um thank you so we come back to the minutes of January 18th does anyone have any comments of th for those just had a a minor change I think it it noted sculpture garden it's uh the Sculpture Park it's page six line 33 the commission asked where the uh sculpture garden I think it's just should be Sculpture Park because that's how they list it on their website okay okay so that's any other changes or amendments no all right may have an a motion to approve the minutes of January 18th as amended I move to approve as amended second and all in favor I okay moving on to February 22nd um now here John is not here I a yes canone V on these minutes because correct well I was late uh on the January meeting I believe so I think I can only vote on the second half of those minutes um the so how do Janine how do we break the minutes up then uh if there's no it depends on whether there's any amendments to the when Mr was the were you here for that which parten you heard the application that was um the that was the sculpture garden Sculpture Park yes I was here for that application so he can vote okay okay and can John vote on that for that was that was U Silver's project yes no iused myself okay so we have one recusal so the three of you can vote so the three of us vote and we all voted yes okay okay okay then moving on to February 22nd 2024 minutes um John was not here John was not here here okay so um I have one uh uh one thing on page two uh under advisory design review February 1st 2024 it says Miss Bennett a member of the Monclair History Center it should be Miss Bennett and Helen Fallon Helen Fallon is a member of the monair History Center so you have to add her name valent f a l l o n and then just a minor change on page four which is uh the the second to last paragraph the historic preservation commission recommended that the building be more consistent with the building materials of of the wheel Street area additional brick exteriors would be more appropriate and you should rather than for should be it's 35 yeah I on page four okay yeah I'm sorry I don't have I don't have that yeah it should be should be more appropriate rather than fiber cement any other amendments I had I had a few um on page two line 22 um it says Paul S um instead of cus um page two don't remember page two line 33 um just a period after Mount Hein after Mount from Mount Hein school um Line 39 comma after application and then on page four line four um two to four family residences and uh it should be lowrise walkup and then I had some non-substantive um stylistic changes I don't know if that's something we should talk about now but uh yes before we vote on them all right so I would say um for line page 4 line 12 um I would just rephrase that um I would say uh the facade Incorporated brick detailing comma and balcony cutouts on the second and third floor take advantage of Glenfield Park views um page four line 17 I I would say uh remove the ore between cement and stucco um and then just add a slash between end Andor woodi um and then that one's fine uh for line 24 I would say or line 25 um starting on line 24 long Wheeler Street the windows will be I think it should be either one light uh casement or awning windows correct right I think I'm I'm not sure if I misread that but and line 28 uh the commission asked that the facade facing Wheeler Street I think we should say will be brick or other composite material sorry which line line 28 and then I think I had one more um bear with me one moment all right I think that's that's my sub my changes for now thank you okay thank you um so the three of us can vote Nick Mike and myself and and John has to recuse himself he wasn't there so a motion to approve the minutes of February 27 second as amended motion to approve second okay all in favor I okay thank you uh let's see we have no resolutions committee reports um thank you farwa far and I worked on the CLG Grant uh to get our annual report in um so that's all taken care of okay great and um that's an annual uh condition of our of of being a SG certified local government uh minor applications on we met on March 14th the application is 202 24-4 Dan and days at 598 Valley Road that was approved with conditions for signage application 2024-25 Bloomfield Avenue was approved with conditions for signage and um and awnings on March 28th we also met and we discussed 20 application 202 24-7 nuts and delights at 555 Bloomfield Avenue that was approved with conditions for both awning and signage and on April 18th we met 2024-25 Church Street that was approved with conditions and unfortunately there was violation with that so can you bring us up to date with what's going on down there I I drove by today and they've taken off the um units from the front so um have you is there anything are they going to come back to us with anything else uh uh is this 43 Church Street 43 yeah um cookies milk and cookies so um they the building the building department was informed about it and I think they have taken down now or they are in the process of taking it down but it has been handled okay so one of the being it's a violation any intrusions into the masonry need to be repaired that's one thing will that come to you um I think it's a building department issue uh because they know about the violation and the um their architect also came in with an application with a permit application to get accepted but that was also denied uh this is a matter that happened today only um thises happen today yeah um so I think I need to follow up about if there is damage on the on the facade because of those appliances uh I would need to ask who would be responsible for that yes because somebody has to go down and look at it now yeah of course okay so let us let us know I will okay thank you um then uh The Advisory Board advisory commiss committee rather met on March 14th at the board of ed building it was Steve runi and myself we met with the architect of the cap capital projects um so we met with uh uh Architects and members of the um Board of Education that uh are in charge of these projects and the reason that we met is because the the board ofed building and then the building next to it which is a very early School building it's now the prek building they're T they're doing work on the outside so they we discussed some of the um trim and molding around the exterior the gutters that are there and the steeple that they want to take down they want they they need to renovate it so they were looking to replace it completely without um without uh you know with a different design different proportions and we told them please to take take it off the building to check how what the deterioration is and from you know from the ground you really can't see anything but it looked like it was it wasn't cracked or falling apart so looked like it was a condition of uh uh peeling paint and maybe some lattice that or things that they keep pigeons out of so hopefully that should come back to you as well fall they because they said that if we had to do an on-site visit when they actually take the steeple down okay um and then the yes the design Review Committee uh uh met online with uh again Board of Education Representatives with Robert Simon and John hes for the solar institution that they're doing on the school buildings and unfortunately it was a courtesy review that they gave to the planning board so there was really nothing that we could um there was really no input that we had for them to to change the positioning of the uh solar panels but I'm glad you you know alerted us yeah so at least now as lia's on to the planning board I wanted to make sure that we at least um had an additional opportunity uh to comment or review it but now I think we need uh to um revise procedure or somehow um communicate better with Board of Education to make sure that we're included in these um programs I'm not sure these projects I'm not sure that it would have mattered in this particular project because um you know the the panels were placed because they were they needed the south facing facade for additional sunlight but in the future I think our input would be beneficial uh for projects including you know we we discussed it um the uh the field where they removed one of the potentially historic um ticket booths so I just think moving forward we need to have a better procedure with the board of education so that we're able to have more input at in the outset and I have an update on that but John did you want to add no I agree with that but I I disagree that we would have made some changes on what they presented so very fair it was just we didn't have a chance so so an update on the Woodman field situation um I was able to I would like to ask maybe you Mike to help me compose a letter to the Board of Education because I've been made aware that the on the actual plans that the ticket booth which is the historic ticket booth that was uh uh designed by Startin van v from 1921 that was completely demolished and dumped in the dumpster uh was not supposed to be demolished I saw the plans so on the plans itself it was not to be demolished and um I actually have a piece of a coral that came off the ticket Bo so I think with um with uh you know uh correct architectural input that it could be re um recreated U but it's but you're absolutely right that um we've been outside of the loop with whatever goes on in these in the in the Border bed and I think going forward we should ask in a polite manner that we do you know that we are included so I think letting them putting them on notice about the ticket booth and um you know how how it should have been and it was just you know just knocked down so I think that's a so if you and I can that to assist with okay great thank you so education and Outreach the awards program um preservation Awards is is postponed the form has been updated on the website I think uh it's been updated with the the due date to be March May 30th uh so we will postpone it until either June or September so we'll see uh what happens uh with with getting any um any perspective Awards um but I do want to ask you far which I had asked you on our website there's a there's a part that pops up that says news do you do you know that on the when you go into the website it says news and it just has like things that are going on in town it's not on the top no on the bottom like if you it pops up I'm just wondering if you can find out if we if you could put an announcement that we're looking for uh pres possible preservation Awards on that part of the website okay it's called it's it's just called if you go down if you open up the website and you go down don't go into the scheduled events it it pops up and there's three things I think we can post an announcement of sorts that the preser preservation Awards uh deadline has been postponed and if anyone wants to apply they can something along those lines right but make it py yeah make it pppy I I'll send it to you okay all right great that's great okay all right so then June 6 is the um June 5th and 6 is the uh annual New Jersey history and historic preservation conference which this year will be in Jersey City and the um the theme of it is connecting history by ra by Road and river which is actually very good I have the um the schedule is is out and as a added benefit I've been asked to speak at one of the uh sessions which is going to be on June 6 at 10:15 and it's Community ties H hpc's Community engagement and being a CLG and actually um Janine your firm is sponsoring this session so yeah okay so um it's it's interesting is going to be um other session members are from cranberry and uh another one is from Burlington County so it's going to be a combination of South Jersey and North Jersey and actually this year being in Jersey City uh they they really normally don't have them North so if you get a chance to go we have monies available and um I get a reduced rate no no no no I get a reduced rate so if anyone here is interested they um they they can go they get um HPC members are eligible to go not for the add-ons but for the conference uh which is the Wednesday conference sessions and there's also add-ons so so pardon me so based on the fee on the website which is $125 yes and then there's additions so the 125 is what everybody can So based on the 125 I told you that the that we can sponsor for people well let's see who wants to go all right I know what are the dates again June 5th and 6th and the fifth is the one that we're able to attend um through the right to the commission yes okay uh I would be very interested in attending well I don't think it I don't think it's actually been advertised yet I think just the the people that the conference people have have gotten the acttion I think yeah I think an email everyone the details so then you can tell me that's what we've done in the past but have you gotten this yet because you should have gotten information about it not you send me an email that's all I have pardon me you send me an email that's that's what I have but you should be getting it from the state because there's always been a few people not you know not the entire commission but a couple of people have always gone okay um and we do have a education component that as being a CLG that we have to uh all the members are have to attend so um oh excuse me we we will um you know we have some ideas if people AR eligible or not available to go to this which I think would be really interesting but we we have other things coming that we can do as well to do educational uh to fulfill our educational requirements okay so uh far where are we on the label Street nomination um I think so it was presented to the economic development committee right and it was not heard so no action so I think that's the action that has been taken that it's not heard if it's not heard does that mean that um it's tabled or does that mean that it is can it be uh reviewed by a subsequent Council what subsequent Council well the new Council that will be elected uh and sworn in in June if it doesn't go to if it's not presented to the council then it won't be heard by it so it didn't even go to the council it was stopped I guess my question is can they can the new Council that sworn in in June pick it up and present it I mean it can be heard if uh I mean that's what my understanding is okay that if it goes Beyond it wasn't voted down essentially right so it was not even heard so there was no vote that's what my understanding is uh the update that I got was that it was taken to the economic development committee because uh that's protocol um and then it was not they didn't engage with it procedurally speaking though that does not um uh that does not uh I guess confine the next Council from taking action correct I believe so but I I would need to confirm this okay if if you could look into that for us what procedurally what does that mean that it was not heard and and what are the consequences of that non-action okay I will thank you can you Enlighten us Janine no because I don't know what the committee did if somebody tabled it it can be picked up off the table um if if it wasn't table and it simply wasn't presented then anybody can do anything they want with it okay next governing body the one after that yeah but since I don't know what they did not heard is not either a motion or a non-motion under Robert's Rules I don't know what it means right okay okay great thank you now public comment everybody is at the uh the other event today tonight uh no as seeing that there's no public to make a comment I'll close that session uh that uh part of the uh the meeting old business um we don't have any old business and which me moves us at 8:00 to new business so our new business our first uh application is is a referral from the planning board it's application 2817 260 bellw Avenue which is the Belleview theater so okay so while we're getting organized and before we swear in our applicants um I would like to just uh remind everybody of what this application the project description is um uh the the applicant has previously received approval from the HPC uh in with the approval to install a new stir for the retail space to the right of the building from bellw Avenue and to repair and improve the exterior facade of the building which has moved along swimmingly and it looks really good and I think you have you have you finish with that oh before you answer any questions so I think that the there's a couple of things that I wanted to ask you but I W let's let you be sworn in first so the um coming for this application um the Belleview theater is a key building in the upper Monclair uh uh uh upper Monclair business district and it was built in 1921 and it has a tutor Revival style to it and it extends further down the side we can see it up on the um on the on the pictures on the screen and it really is the showpiece of upper mon Clair so having said that um before I describe what you're actually here for maybe our attorney can swear you in now and state your name and your uh relationship to the project uh are you both yes yes are yes yes yes I do I need to spell your name right um Brendan Yan last name spell y n um with rxg architecture plus design okay and I'm Paul saig S A ye G okay thank you so let me just give a little bit more of the historical significance 268 bellw Avenue known as the bellev theater is located in the upper Monclair local historic district and it was surveyed as part of preservation Monclair in 1981 it was designed by JH Phillips and constructed in 1921 and T to rival St style popular in this commercial District it is 2 and 1/2 stories in height and the exterior comprises brick is comprised of brick stuck out half timbering and slate Roofing and as I mentioned before you've come be you came before us and have already completed um a lot of work on most of the work on the front facade and what you are um looking for here is to uh punch out three uh punch out um storefronts in the existing building that will be on the east side which is on I always called it an alley I don't know what if if there's another word for it but um and that that's which is shown on your site plan and so we're going to you're going to describe what that will be uh what you're proposing for that and I'd like to keep that separate from the mural issue so first let's uh talk about what you proposed to do for the east side of the of the building uh yeah sure um there's a handheld mic yeah hi um thank you for your time um so as mentioned here if you can see this is the drive um the driveway the alley and this is the East Side the lower right hand corner this is the east side of of the BW building and part that we want to is to change part as part of our application to the planning board is to convert um that part of the building to retail use and to punch through the exterior wall um the extent is about 73 ft why and on one end is about 13 ft the other end about 15 ft how do I advance this the next sorry okay um this is just a site plan that we included um just for reference and the facade is along over here and this portion of the building and on the next page which is page three of the handout that you have and I would like you to um draw Point your focus to the lower part of the renderings on the left hand lower leftand corner that's where we want to propose for the new storefront the system is basically aluminum and clear glass excuse me and uh with the sign band going across the top for three retail spaces and also as part of our application to the planning board we're required to put some exterior lights so we're also showing that on the facade these glob lights that go onto the pilers along the pathway and on the front part closer to the Bell View we'll have a separate type of lighting it's more like a down light and that would go on both sides and in addition actually I should mention that in addition to the east facade the client is also interested in b b theater is also interested in working on the west Vera as well and put a mirror there so both sides will be balanced so on the other side of the building you also see that we'll carry the lighting through and we'll have a different maybe more like a lettering but the theme we have not decided yet for the public art and that's for the lighting we are showing three types of lighting the globe light the down light and the one on the upper right hand corner that just typical exit discharge lights that are required by code and also by the planning board and I should also mention that we are putting a um masonry enclosure for the exterior trash um dumpster and you can find that on the last page for the detail is break masonry on both ends following the administrative code with lockable gate and then the bottom of the page and that is the typical uh storefront system for the retail spaces can you go back to that do you have the placement of that trash enclosure on the um it's it's here I don't know if you can see it it's right it's right here oh okay oh I'm I'm sorry I'm looking I didn't look at the updated so the three things are the retail storefront exterior light and the trash enclosure the masonry enclosure okay thank you does that conclude your testony yes okay thank you so we'll open it up for our commissioners if for questions um why don't you go um the globe light uh what is it made out of uh this metal and opal glass uh the storefronts that are uh going down the alley there they look like they're all at different elevations so the interior floor at different elevations all along there you talking about the lighting I'm talking about the storefront oh uh because the sidewalk slopes down so we're maintaining the top elevation and adjust as we go because on the inside the floor is also sloping too inside the floor is because existing the that's what I yeah so it changes okay yeah um it looks like you're breaking it up into are you breaking it up into one two three four five six space SE one six spaces or of three ret four spaces of three retail spaces three retail spaces and which would be the oh I so if I'm looking at this elevation the small store front to the right of the one pilaster goes with the door to the left that whole one is a retail space is that it uh yeah so if you're coming from the right the way that you were counting before be the two if I may it'll be um so this would be one space here okay and then this is the second one and this would be the third one they they can't put the door on the left to the to the left see that last door on the left cuz the Sidewalk Ends at that pyter oh isn't one of the uh requirements to the from the planning board they have to build the sidewalk all along that facade I saw that someplace there oh yeah is that correct yeah so the door could go anywhere oh okay but it angles right is there room to put a sidewalk down to the end of the to the end of to the last storefront uh based on what we saw in the field yes okay yeah where's the property line is the property line the building uh right up against the building yeah on this side so the globe lights are just uh oh they're on both facades and you're keeping them level all the way across the sign level all the way across it would be okay I have comment but I don't have any more questions okay Nick yeah I just I just have one question for now um the drawing of the East Elevation on a03 there um is it just for graphic Clarity that the signage above the storefront is not shown with the the bronze back plate it's not going to actually be the off-white color with dark lettering uh yeah okay it will get changed gotcha yeah okay and the material of the front of the enclosure like the gate itself is that just a a bronze metal to match like the storefront color uh that can be yes okay it's we envision it as just solid metal gate yeah okay yeah those are my only questions for now thank you Mike uh no questions I have a question so the the um the brick ends at at thanks the brick ends at the the the front of about a third or a quarter down and then what is the material that you're suggesting that you punch out what is that um a some kind of cement block where where the storefronts are are proposed there the type of material what is the historic material that you're the historic material up on the top well the whole the whole it's brick sorry the whole no this isn't brick what what is this oh currently there's some uh CMU blocks right but that's original to the building yes okay so we're punching through the at the bottom right yes right okay okay um so I have and the two doors must or the two doors on the East facade which are the egis the black doors those are the emergency they're the existing uh egress doors yes and then on the on the on the West Side there's one double door this door is that is that is that there yes those are all existing doors for the theater oh and there's two on that side as well yeah okay and um and that's the same type of material that the the the facade is made of the same block material as the they're both they're corresponding yes okay because in the back the back facade is actually brick as as it is in the front they they have both like the P the pilasters they all made of the vertical elements they made of they clad it in bricks but in between they all in these bigger cement blocks okay so it's obvious thatting it's obvious that the facade um that these side facades I would say they're secondary facades they're not the primary facade that that uh that you would use the more expensive you know when it was built the more expensive brick uh yeah okay that that was my question any other questions before just quickly I I I do recall um I know you're removing the fire escape and you're adding stairs in in on the interior for an addition existing stairs being used there existing stairs being used so the fire escape is not necessary correct okay so you won't add another fire escape no okay and then just um I see that um looks like on the um the doors that are being removed um on the uh building that is located directly on Belleview Avenue so you're adding Windows there instead of you're removing a door correct I just want to make sure I'm getting this um right here see how there's a door here chair and it looks like they're adding Windows instead of the the door that's there yeah the the the uh photograph that has the fire escape on it yeah but you there's an EG store at the top of the what what would have been the top of the fire escapes so correct well because once the fire escapes is removed you don't need those doors anymore you don't want to go out that door anymore I understand my my question though is just the materials um are you going to be able to match um the um you going be able to match the existing that's the intent yes that's the intent okay so I have a question and it sort of piggybacks on Mike's because we don't have another photograph on page A1 um you have just half of that uh you have the fire escape and then the door which now will become a window and then there's a window to the right of that or to the north of that is there an existing W oh you could see it yeah so you're putting in two windows in that brick facade no just one window that replaces the door the the other windows I believe are already there okay you just can't see them cuz they're covered with plywood and painted oh so you're going to open you're you'll open those yeah we're going to replace some with new windows and what type of window what type of Windows are you going to use there did you do you have that in the that no we don't have it because that actually just a carried over from and other drawing that we have is not meant to be part of this the focus was just only at the back part of the building but if you if you need you need approval for if you're going to if you're going to put new windows in there as well and so we need to know what type of Windows you're going to put in I think we're going to put the same windows that are in the front not the diamond pain on the what did you what did you you need to write you need to put that we need to know what that that will be we do that okay so because you but it would match the one that we have submitted previously for the front right yeah and the two windows that are at the top which remain will those those look like will those be replaced as well because one one is one over one and one it looks like a four pane window the smaller one are those remaining they the old windows all the windows are going to be replaced okay so they should all be consistent okay are there any other questions in terms of uh I have one more question the the doors of the storefront do they open in or they open out good question in okay one more one more question I I'm looking at this elevation and I'm looking at the storefront and where the storefront either hits the block or the pier it looks like the the aluminum aluminum anodized system is very thick there looks like it's drawn as like one foot wide and then it's glass and on the other side it's one foot is that what the intent is yeah uh cuz for us to achieve the uniformity across after 3ft modules we're left with like wider ends so we would like to use the same material some kind of anodize dark analiz brick metals to wrap the you know the remaining parts so in each Bay that's why you see that consistent same thickness sort of except for the last Bay it's consistent until it gets to the very left yeah right well is there a is there a way to make them consistent with the with the the thicker frames on where they meet the base or with that are you stuck with the 3-ft module or can you make them just equal we saw just go by the width of the door between pilers basically can you make them equal even if it's unequal from one Bay to the next so that each area doesn't have the leftover piece is sort of find like a common denominator for each Bay is that what no just understand that but what it seems like it's an odd detail and I don't even know what you're proposing is it just a flat piece of metal that's 1T thick then the storefront starts or what it's it's an odd condition as opposed to just letting the storefront D into the block on either side which seem would seem to me to be cleaner but yeah but we're getting into comments not questions at the moment well the question was whether or not you're oh what it is yeah and whether or not you're married to the to the 3ot modules but that that's something we can discuss when we do the comments um um what was my question I have I have one more question go ahead where is the light fixture this Pavo LED architectual twood Direction wall mount 6in light the up the one on the left hand side of a zero where's where does that I don't see that on the elevation anym sorry it might be a little bit dark but it's basically on the brake for on the red brick on the west oh I got it also on on East here how did you how did you pick that elevation for that lighting oh um based on the light intensity of the light we spoke with the manufacturer John are you suggesting it's too high or too low it doesn't line up with anything else I'm just wondering where it got grabbed out of the air in terms of height so is I usually want to try to see something and line up with something else but um certainly it's not a matter of lighting up it's a matter of then lighting providing some lighting around the building is that it um uh they down light and Visually Sor um they're more or less lining up with with the there are these lines that existing on the facade so on both elevations they visually sort of lining up with that horizontal element I don't know if that they're clear the print outs so the height is the same for those on both yeah if you if you look at you see how like above the storefront there're these existing horizontal lines on the facade and these like sort of they line up with them on centers same for the other facade this light throws light up and down right uh we have the option of to oh you have the option cuz the one light to the left on the bottom elevation is going to be it's just throwing if it's throwing light up it's throwing light right into the window there right so we can just only just down down yeah so you're going to throw light up and down or just down we were just thinking about doing down light just down all the way around uh yes all of them I think yeah I have one last question me too the brick the brick pilers that are on the you know taller building where the work is um do you know if that brick that's there is the same as the original theater brick it's all pained it over so MH yeah was there any thought to just having those pieces remain as brick like have them have the paint removed and have them cleaned and then just do the mural on the concrete block portions um yeah we have to really study and look into it so that it doesn't divide up depends on the mirror design right okay that was my only question just if it was considered and what brick type it is but the rest we can get into in comments thanks uh one more question uh I see existing painted white leaders at either end and it looks like you're going to turn them into bronze am I reading a third one that doesn't exist right now um yeah there existing uh ring leaders from the roof well there's only two now that in an existing photograph right one on either end of the facade and then looks like you're adding one um there are like couple on the East facade there are a couple ones in the middle also oh yeah yeah the ones on the east side can you see it oh they're painted out H okay but there is one on the got it as well got it and you would propose okay and you would propose even though it's a mural you would propose it to be a dark bronze against the mural whatever the mural is and and honestly with the mirror once that design is finalized that might get adjusted just to work with the design okay um I have another question about the the the on five A5 the bulkhead oh no I'm looking at the old pictures that you gave us sorry is it the yeah is the uh is the bulk had the same type of glass is it glass or is it a is it an aluminum finish um this the storefront yes for the storefront the bottom TR yeah yeah yeah is is aluminum the framing the frame is aluminum but what is the what is the panel is it glass oh in the middle that's clear glass yes oh so you're going clear glass down to the yeah okay so on on five what you have here is the part of the system the quaner quer dark bronze that's just to show us what the finish it be for the the uh framing correct correct okay any other questions uh sorry just what's the material for the en uh garbage enclosure so it's U metal oh it's masonry and yeah and metal post okay thank you okay so you received our Consultants report correct yes okay so we're GNA I'm going to ask uh Stephen now to to uh give us his opinion um on what he's written sorry I just have to find it here you have a copy okay go ahead um good evening so I'm going to summarize uh my report from April 16th and I'm going to do my best as we go here to kind of maybe update it since there are a couple differences between the April 15th and April 25th drawing set that we're looking at tonight so big picture 260 bwav is getting much of its character defining historical features from the north volume the tutor style building fronting Bell viw a there this volume on the south end of the property that we're discussing tonight very utilitarian um not much in the way of any uh notable architectural features really not any um anything that anyone would would say is contributing to the historic significance um of the overall property so much of the um changes are located on the east side of the property which is that set of four stor fronts that we've been talking about um we have more clarity tonight on the mural which I'll talk about later something that we lost between the April 15th and April 25th drawing set that people have kind of touched on is more of a traditional arrangement in the storefront with a clear glazed transom above that's no longer present um still a sign band higher which is good um and we have I guess illustrative detail on how the lettering may look there you still have the clear glass display window which is good that's reminiscent of a historic storefront and I think um to the chair's Point potentially exploring like an opaque uh sill May assist in making this kind of blend into the upper Monclair commuter District a little bit better the rhythm of the storefronts I think is appropriate for that uh District you're not proposing anything with glass that's obscenely wide or anything like that there's um a good Cadence between the doors pedestrian experience sidewalk um that's all that's all good uh in reviewing the the accent lighting something that doesn't seem like it was corrected between the April 15th and the set we're looking at tonight are a bunch of conflicting light fixture types in most cases it seems like the type the type B fixture called out on the drawings are actually type A type A called out on the elevations is actually type B in terms of its depiction so I think if we could maybe just clarify that you mean the types of fixtures that you've shown on a03 like as they're graphically depicted and not necessarily the types called out because that's a little bit confusing um helpful to know that the light type A is only throwing light down I think that'll um result in a more kind of appropriate facade I think that given that you're proposing some infill of a fairly unique appearance of brick at that one door it would be helpful to see some type of mockup just to convince the commission that we are going to have a relatively seamless appearance between the new and the Old Brick uh because that's not necessarily easy to achieve in reviewing the mural which we have more detail on tonight on on both the West and the East Side um understand that's illustrative I think once maybe a more developed design is available it'll be helpful for the commission to understand how that's being adhered to the building is it a sticker are you priming it what are you doing to the substrate is it reversible and I don't think necessarily the commission will be reviewing the content of that mural provided it's not a sign which I think the west elevation is certainly a sign more than it's a mural and you have to be careful not to disrupt um or belittle the historic building and then also spanning between different um surfaces and the pilasters between um with the gutters and leaders running down it could get a little awkward and may not have kind of the legible effect that the elevation has which which may be problematic um just to conclude the two kind of relevant uh Secretary of the Interior standards I used um in reviewing this were standard one properties used as it uh has been historically or given a new use that requires minimal change to distinctive materials finishes features spaces the storefronts definitely qualify and are appropriate I think under standard number one and standard number nine um to a lesser extent is also applicable here um which says that there is not going to be a destruction of historic material features um Etc that characterize the property which which I don't believe is happening here with these storefronts did you have any questions on the report or anything I can maybe clarify well it was it was clear okay thank you did the commission have any questions or anybody so we'll open this up for discussion now between the commission um [Applause] um overall I mean I think it's very sensitive to what's already there you know given that it is such a utilitarian building to begin with I think the infill work that you're doing is pretty complimentary you know to the original tutor building in as much of a way as it could be you know infill work on a building like this made to be consistent with such a historic building at the street um to John's question and point earlier I do think the storefront would be improved if we can get um maximum glass between the pilers even if it results in you know maybe one section between you know the second and the the fourth pister they don't all have to be the same one I think it's just important that from pyas to pister it's the same equal spacing but once it gets past the brick pister and there's a break between them it could go to another spacing even if it's it's an inch or two different but I think maximum glass and the width would be um definitely better than just infilling with the the metal paneling um where that is and then um to my question earlier you know I know it's pending further investigation once the paint is removed and and it's probably graphically highly dependent on what the actual mural ends up being you know it might be something completely different than what we're seeing if it's more of a darker color maybe this is more appropriate but I think it would be a worthwhile question to see what the brick looks like underneath the paint um on the pilers and the back of the building and just see if it's worth you know repointing it or repairing it um um getting it washed and and just brought up so that maybe it ties in with the front building a little bit better um you know and if it works with the mural design so those are my comments um I agree with Nick about the uh how these storefronts abut the uh pilasters and that that extra material be removed I think all the lights should be at the same height running across the facade I realize the two that the down lights maybe operate a little bit different well the both are sort of down lights but I would run everything at the same height all the way across um I I had a question you know this is a big Improvement okay and you're doing a great job the front front of the building looks fabulous uh is the Spire going to appear someday on the Gable the you're talking about the in the front final the final the final is there is the final that's been installed yeah okay last I was there it wasn't installed okay great um I should have a picture if you want to see it you want that's all I have I mean it is it's going to clean things up and looks it looks nice thank you mik yeah I agree it's a vast Improvement um I think uh I would be supportive of uh John and Nick's um suggestions uh for some adjustments but uh overall I think it actually resolved a real dead space between the theater and that shopping center back there um I think this is um a tremendous Improvement um I think the facade looks uh on the Belleview Avenue side um looks great so I think you all are doing a a terrific job and I'm very supportive of uh this uh change thank you thank you and I I have I was concerned about the the uh destruction of the historic material which is the it's it's not brick it's the cement block so um to Nick's point I don't know how conducive that is to stripping I don't know it because it's not brick so I I think you you might have to explore that although the color underneath that of cement block it's not I I don't think it will match the brick that's that's the the you know the the the fancy facade um it's CMU oh okay okay so yeah just the pilers any of the original brick on the the warehouse building or whatever it's purposed as right now okay but CMU would definitely you know maintain mural over it just cuz Okay once it's stripped it's just going to be gray block so so I would support that that that that idea to because you do have some uh brick the staircase in the front going up which you've stripped the the paint as much as you could and we suggested that you leave it as rough as possible just to show the the original rather than paint the entire thing um and um the building behind it they had actually painted their brick and um which was in violation when they came before us we asked them to strip it which they did and I think that building looks great now um so but again that probably just had one coed paint on it so I don't you know you'd have to investigate what is what did it what it what's going on there to John's Point even if the light fixtures ended up all being at the same height and the brick ended up being a matching brick with the front building maybe all the light fixtures that are on the brick then are the same fixture all the way down and you could imagine you know when you're on bellw looking down that Alleyway you see all nice original brick illuminated at the same level with the same quality light could tie these two things together a little bit better I I agree I thought the same thing becomes a pathway right together yeah I know I I think that that's something that you should consider um I do have a question though um about the the roof is is that has has that been address the slate roof have you addressed the there were some things on that front slate roof that had to be addressed repaired has that been done I mean all the repairs to the S roof were completed they redid the valleys they removed the chimneys they replaced any missing slate okay the rear valy too so they did anything that had to do with the slate roof okay I just wanted to double check that so um I agree with my colleagues that it is an improve vast Improvement and I think it really does open up the space I am concerned about the um the mural and the type of mural what's going to be there so to Mr smolin's uh point the the what you've shown here for biew theater Monclair that is a sign considered a sign so that would be um something that if you wanted you know if you're dead set on that you'd have to come before us to to get approv are we going to approve that now or is this something you're still investigating the murals the type of mural oh yeah correct we're still investigating and as I was they'd have to come back okay so when you when you decide on what you're doing for these murals if you would uh you don't even have to come back to the full commission we can meet you in the field as well which we've done um so um but I think that's really important um because as Mr smolen said you don't want to um overwhelm the St what what were your words you don't want to overwhelm or I I said belittle overwhelm is a better word so I would appreciate that and I think at that point you will know what what you're actually um what the pilasters will reveal what what the work is on that okay so um this is a uh these are recommendations to the planning board it's not it's not a c of a so our recommendations will be um uh right sent to the plan and when does this go before the planning board June 7th yeah oh June 7th okay so if you want to be more if you want it more complete if you have an idea of what you're doing with the mural you can contact fawa in the office and we can you know if you want to go with that to the planning board okay okay noted but I think it's very important to realize that the difference between a decorative mural which you've shown with the little flowers over here and the and the idea of a sign okay can I I mean I think on the west side it's going to be I mean I don't know if it's going to be exactly that but I think it's it's definitely going to be a sign because we're just we just look at it that the train comes by and it'd be a nice nice view when they're coming in so have you investigated any of these ghost signs like which look very I is that not is that not appropriate for historic district like an illuminated projection no no a ghost sign like it to makes it look like it's been there for a while oh like old signage you see on Old brick buildings worn down you see evidence of you know okay all right all right um can I just uh there was something in this handout here that says the application has been referred to the HPC to advise on the East facade improvements additions that include the following the well-mounted lights which we talked about we talked about the art installation or the mural and then the next item is proposed storefront signage for three retail stores which are 3 feet in height I don't see we adjusted them so that adjusted them so on your hand the hand out here they're all 2 ft now okay so what's the sign band how how big is the sign band they're two foot in height two foot okay and that's consistent with our with our ordinance corre okay I just didn't understand that the the sign band on top of the storefronts that are on the East facade and they can't tell us what that is until you have tenants which she would also have to come back for us yeah okay well if there's a new sign um of course like you will come back for this what the tenant sign has to the tenant would come back right they have to come back I I right okay well thank you very much all right and we look forward to seeing what you uh you know decide on thank you thank you oh you want to repeat the conditions the recommendations what is it just recommendations or also uh we did want to have some conditions like reviewing the brick to make sure that it matches okay um okay um so um so were you writing you were writing oh I mean I mean I can I can write it down I I'll write it down okay but because we did we we talked about that that the the light fixtures be uniform and be at the same height that the glass expanse between the pilasters be um uh um optimiz optimiz made large right optimize the uh pilasters on the east side that are brick it uh to explore the the that surface being stripped and bring it back to the original um as close as original um we approved the the idea of them breaking through to create the storefronts which I think was a a big uh a big uh thing um the signage will have to the murals will have to come back to us uh and um the Windows the windows have to be the same manufacturer the same type as what's already on the building um I forgot what the what they were but right and um lighting oh and what about the gutters the gutters uh you brought that up John um it seem it seems well the gutters are in the same position they show it on the uh drawing as anodized um but it really doesn't matter too much until they decide what they want to do with the mural so right so so that's that's still open oh and then the um I called it the bulkhead uh but it's the the bottom sill on the on the um the uh storefront should be of the same material as the as the uh uh the framing the anod D metal correct in the same color and those were the those that was everything I wrote down I think that captures it okay I think that captures it Che okay so you'll write it up and then you'll send it to me okay okay and this goes when June 7th to the planning board [Applause] you yeah okay so next up is application um 20245 20 Church Street this is an application for certificate certificate of appropriateness and um the property is located on the south side of Park Street between South Park and South Fullerton uh the it is in a two-story building and it is in the Central Business Historic District zone the building was constructed in 1970 and it is a um uh it has a center um uh entryway with shops on either side it was uh designed in the um 1930 Art Deco commercial building and it is considered a contributing factor a contributing building to the district uh the uh 2002 report nomination report which sets it in the Town Center historic building the um the proposal what we're looking at tonight and this is a certificate of appropriateness is um the demolition of an existing glaze storr System including the entry door bulkhead sill awnings and in exterior floor surfacing uh the application the applicant wants the to construct a new glaze storefront system with an ADA accessible entry door within the existing opening and then there are uh two signs that are also proposed one is a wall sign which um we'll see in the in the in the uh the uh exhibit in the uh pictures and one is a blade sign so would you please identify yourself and Miss B will um swear you in yes Zachary g i it's open c u s u m a n o um so I'm just going to repeat a little bit of what um it's okay to go ahead yes please I was going to repeat a little bit about what you said um read a little bit and then we'll talk about some of the drawings uh we're here tonight to discuss the replacement of the existing storefront at Church Street 2206 lot 6 the property is located on the south side of Church Street between um South Park Street and South Pon Street the changes proposed are to the north exterior elevation facing Church Street which include two bays an East Eastern Bay with an entrance and an adjacent Western Bay without an entrance we are proposing to remove the existing storefront glazing and metal support system including the entry door a small portion of the bulkhead sill fabric awnings and a small of the exterior PS we are seeking your approval to install a new Pac aluminum tempered and insulated LED storefront system we are uh replicating the existing window pattern with the new system we will be providing a new accessible barrier free entrance barrier free entrance for the area where the existing entrance is located uh the new entrance door will be a black aluminum and glass door which is similar to what is installed on the building made we are also proposing to Cloud over the existing marble uh bulk head with black aluminum panels anchored to the base and to the top of the bulkhead with metal brackets finally uh we are proposing to install two new signs at the exterior a pin mounted 1/4 in dink metal wall sign projecting 1 inch off the facade the outer overall dimensions of the sign uh will be 2 ft tall by 3 ft long and a blade sign with a painted black background and white painted letters the blade sign will be mounted 10 ft above the sidewalk and will measure 2T by 1T 10 in the area of the exterior pavers that will now become interior will take on the same flowing as the main entrance bace which is with a main restaurant space which is wood drawing um and I provided uh uh two main drawings HP 002 which depicts the general construction drawings and uh produ specification for the project and Sheet hp3 which came contains the existing photos of facad and the renderings of the new store system and signs so when um so from here we can reference some of these drawings which uh so you can see on uh sheet one drawing number one of p002 uh where the I dashed in where the existing uh uh door is and we repositioning the door a little bit and where the new door will be located and I'm also showing you where the uh new on the right hand side of the bay where the new um St will be installed which is going to mimic what was there uh previously and then down below are a bunch of the details for the signs um the following sheet hp3 so so this sheet shows uh photos of the existing facade um in their current state in recent current states and uh our um renderings of what the new P look like those are on number two and number five um from these renderings you can see that we're bringing this front forward uh we're bringing the door forward uh and we're allowing for a proper Ada entrance to this to the space without the need of power assist okay thank you does that conclude your yeah okay do you have anything to add Mr um we're just trying obviously this is a big project for me you know Town we're moving our current location to this location um you know so we're trying to BR what we can keeping you know mimicking original looks but also making it functional and looking good as well what is your current location uh we're on 39 so this is our eth year and then we're you know we're moving up here so okay okay all right great um I was down there today and took some I took more photographs detailed photographs so uh or more pH photographs of the um building the facades that are within the larger building so can I I'll give one to uh do you want to look at these so we have great should we mark them yes I think we have to mark this as an we'll mark that as HPC one okay HPC1 for the record consists of uh five photographs color photographs six is this two photographs no it's one that's one two three four five six two on the bottom that's what I said okay so even though they don't have any space between there's no space in between do do you would you like one no I can share okay would you like another one I would like one oh here I have some um additional photographs too oh good could share some of them are repeating of some of the spaces but just maybe different angles so bring should are there five there okay are they all the same this one's the main they're all they're all the same so you can do you have extra copies yeah there's about five and then I have a larger print out okay no this is this is good yeah okay okay I okay this one will be marked exhibit A1 [Applause] guess old school too have time to that's what you just handed us correct it's just a blown a larger version okay well that's helpful thank you do do you have one yeah okay um so we will proceed with our any questions from the Commissioners uh John do you want to start yeah um how wide is the existing door the door is 36 in wide the existing door is 36 in wide yeah the existing door and why is that not accessible the the door is in swinging right now yeah and the width to get in is only 36 in there's no clearances to the right and to the left and it's about 30 in recess in but the okay um so you're saying the approach to that door is not wide enough to qualify yes okay even if that door was not latched when it's in operation um if it's not latched but it does have a self closure on it as well mhm which I believe is required what's that I think think it' be required by code to have a self closing latch on it I don't think we'd be able to just read it open no but it it goes to someone being able to push their way through as opposed to operating a lever handle or some other way to get in okay um the existing uh framing for the windows is a steel frame is that correct that's correct okay painted steel painted steel frame can I can I can I just make a uh the on my picture when I was down there today um you see this here I chipped away some of that are you sure that's not bronze under there I don't I know it's painted right now I don't know what metal oh okay because that would be the original I'm just like questioning whether you know for sure whether it's steel or bronze we were looking on the inside which you can see from theide it's a mix of wood deteriorated wood and a form of metal okay could possibly be brze but see that it was Ste for the most part like uh on the inside okay I didn't see anything in the historical records that explain what type of metal okay I still have a couple more questions yeah goad uh is there a reason why the door is not centered in that bay and you moved it to the right uh we did that for clearances on the interior for the restaurant for the a layout inside that's correct okay and I guess I have a question about these photographs but we can talk when we have commentary we can talk about that c can I just ask a question before we was there any consideration of keeping the the original the original um facade the original what is your rationale for wanting to change the the original facade which is consistent with the other that's why I took pictures of it consistent with the whole neighborh street scale Street SC um and and the and you know what this build what this Art Deco building is all about so just so the two considerations were one um to create a facade that is um uh that is a little bit more energy efficient with the insulated glass uh solar heat game and so that the the the building on the interior is more energy efficient and then the second option or the second consideration that we had to um if we really wanted to create an ADA accessible entrance that didn't require any power assist uh for the patrons coming in and in order to do that you have to bring you can't have that um recess you have to bring the door right to the the facade right to the plane of the of the not for the Ada for the um Energy Efficiency for the Energy Efficiency we have to replace what's there with um because right now the glass that's there is maybe A4 of an inch thick uh it's it's plate glass single plate it's cracked um so it does need to be repaired it's not what if you replaced the glass and kept the frame kept the door it won't fit in that frame anymore insulated glass is 3/4 to an inch thick glass and will not fit in the existing historic frame is there any other option something that would be more energy efficient but not necessarily optimal to kind of balance out these interests there's they're the replacing it with a new system is is way to go in order to keep efficiency right but we're we're talking about two separate interests here right one we understand um the desire for Energy Efficiency and we understand the desire for ada8 compliance but also I mean these doors get dating back to 1930 and this U streetcape you know being what you know for the last almost 100 years looking this way I mean we're being asked to uh really disrup that so I I would like to know if there's some other way to balance those two interests other than completely doing away with this I think it's also historic element I I understand where I understand what this commission's goal is here is to keep U and preserve things the way they are well also things that are virtually irre Irreplaceable would you be opposed to us possibly creating the door to mimic the same style because there's also not uniformity throughout the building that's the other part that I was going to mention is that if you look down that um the road St there's doors that are that are replace there's doors that are painted over there's facades that have been replaced with what seems to be wood 100% And this commission was not in operation until but a few years ago right so this particular door are we going to be losing another original uh uh piece of history on this streetcap one of the things that we were interested in doing it I know that um commissions are often um they're also interested in this is that we are willing to give our door to one of those storefronts that has an old door but is not willing to spend the investment in creating a new pant which is you have to understand my client is making an investment in this I understand that and I I I respect that this is a big business totally respect that and I respect that you know this is a significant business investment um and again we have to figure out how to balance these interests um so that was that was something that I thought would would be maybe interesting to the to the commission here is that if we gave our door to one of the places that um currently had a door removed maybe illegally at some point or whatever um and uh this way we're keeping the same amount of original doors operable so if we were to do something like that could we then have something though that more resembles the current um the current facade you know the current shape of the door the shape of the door and the Rhythm the rhythm of the building I mean the location I don't think we'd be opposed to putting the door back centered where Curr was um and maybe keeping that coffin style yes opening that's there U but we do want to bring that door to be flush so that there isn't this recess anymore so there's a give and we can work on together okay Nick do you have a question what would the power assist look like if you did put it on there with a flush door where would you mount it so the power assist would need to be mounted uh per code where on the outside and on the inside um the the problem I have with power assist is I I tend to use those in my architecture where it's a um either uh two doors and that are both leading to the same space so one door could be the power assist and the other one could be the manually operated one um because over time the power assist is going to give out before the manually operated door is so there's there's a life cycle on those doors and they also tend to hold themselves open a little bit longer and because we're under the square foot required to have a A vestule in the space during the winter times that door is going to be held I understand closed and then it's not an optimal choice to be had for this if there was two different if there are two entrances then I I think that that would be reasonable ask to to to be the other thing is that the doors if you guys have ever used them before they they do take a you know there's always a little bit of a you feel like you're pushing a motor a little bit so they're not the easiest swing um when you're not using the button um they bring yeah okay a lot of wear and hair in and out we we did consider it and I I if I had two different if I had two entrances two doors I would consider having one of them be a power assist this slope of the sidewalk lends itself the only entrance to be where it is because it rises when you work yourself um to the West so um we're really stuck with that being any entrance okay yeah that was my only question for now any other questions I guess just one other question um could you gain that accessibility without coming completely flush to the front could you maintain some yeah could go um 8 in have an 8 in recess that would still be compliant okay so that would still work and it would still maintain some sense of yeah the I my question is that the bulkhead that the the the um cladding that marble cladding that's there now yes I mean me I I saw that was one crack on one side and looked like somebody had kicked the other side in but that's that's replaceable you could fix that that's fix fixable I don't I don't believe I think you would have to if you wanted to replace it I think you have to replace it the the cracks are there's multiple cracks along that there's and and pieces missing um I think if you were if you were to replace it the crack itself will still be prominent in that mean to restore to restore it or I'm sorry yes if you were to repair it right repair it it would still be a very strong visic track and not and I have a question the the existing door the recess door that coffin shape at the top there's a box up there what is that box for hanging box what is that not 100% it's old maybe I think it may have on to be like an old alarm system or like there's some wires com okay but it's not a light no it's not like a fixture okay so so I think uh Mike summed it up that um very well that yes this facade does have you know problems but we have to Grapple with the fact that that that um you the the changes that were done to the other other we weren't here for that and in reality the newer things like the the barber shop we we approved that but that was with the idea of bringing it back more to the what originally it was I know I'm commenting now but um I just what you to understand when we go into discussion that that's and when our consultant speaks is is that's what we're grappling with yeah yeah there's there's um there's a few things going on here there's a certain investment that's being willing to be made to upgrade to ensure Energy Efficiency to this building and we're trying to respect the facade and and the nature of this building as as fast as we can dealing with that um but there's there be a limit that we are going to hit where it's no longer feasible um to to um you know to address the facade any further and that's something that my client has been grappling with and trying to figure out um how far he can push that limit and currently this is where we decided upon we we looked into it um during our planning process we got we're sort of stuck at this Crossroad this pres you so I understand your your uh professional view about the um the the window glass have you spoken to the other tenants in the the other people in the in the storefronts have have any of them um because I they look like they're I mean the majority of them are the original storefronts but I don't know whether or not they're the original glass so have you spoken to anybody there um no but where where the variable I think comes in is because of all the kitchen equipment and the hood and the way that we have to balance air with the new HVAC system and there's there's a lot of input sucking out you know so with that the the new system which all goes out the back yes that all goes out the back I'm just saying in terms of of the air that's being put into the space now it's very uh temperature uh uh uh uh it's easily disrupted right so the glass becomes a major factor with winter time summertime heating cooling and things like that so that's why it kind of all plays into like the whole SC I mean this is more inside I know it doesn't have to do with you guys um but this more so why the Energy Efficiency is so important to us because putting in all that money into an hbh system in the hood and all that to make sure that it's all working properly for the customers and us it can kind of like Get disrupted pretty pretty bad well that was my question if you've T spoken to anybody that that that's replaced their glass and I can to answer that short question sorry okay but I can yeah I think one other point um because you just mentioned that's customers we are planning to have people seated at the glass so that is it's not as though the um the patrons are just going to be on the interior only we're going to be doing an area where people can see side have the the door like there'll be a counter on the interior in the window sitting looking out of the window right okay well that's good cuz we don't allow anything to cover it unpleasant if it's freezing outside you're sitting on that that current system all right well that was my question and then and the other thing was if you had done any investigation to see whether um this in fact was bronze uh underneath which okay I didn't get okay all right uh any other questions said just the window design um I mean is it possible to match existing that's what that's is that oh this side to correct this side to also does okay yeah right here this part correct that matches that's exactly how it looks now we're we're intending to match the rhythm of the glass that's there now okay but if you move the door you're changing we're changing a bay if we move the door but if you keep it in the same place you can match it yeah we're willing to concede putting the door back to its original position okay bringing it Forward um so that there's an [Applause] 8 any other questions no Stephen may we hear what you what um sure you have to say so I sit on um an HPC back in my town in Hoboken and it's become nearly monthly this B may remember Art Deco storefronts um in hoken have recesses 10 15 ft um and it's it's a balance between between making that functional for a modern business especially Food Services somewhat problematic um versus um keeping the historic Integrity I'm struggling to find reasons um balancing everything to justify demolishing the existing steel storefront here at 20 Church Street I'll just summarize a couple things from my March 18th uh 2024 report the um storefronts are most definitely original to the subject property most of the adjacent Bays if they don't retain the entirety of the existing storefront are all I think certainly referencing the existing storefront so there's there's a syncopation and pattern um across the entirety of the 20 Church Street facade that I think is important couple mistakes have certainly been made on other um storefront to 20 Church Street uh but two wrongs don't make a right at all um the storefronts I believe are painted steel um it looks like potentially primed metal that's showing through the the chip of paint there um it would be somewhat difficult for paint like that to adhere to bronze uh for so long um and unlikely there's symmetry in all the existing storefront Bays which I I think is important and a character defining feature uh the green marble bulkhead sealed coffin shaped door recessed entry all certainly character defining important features um the horizontal paving at the entrance awnings both of those not historic uh not particularly important so I did look at this existing storefront in person and it's not in great condition but it's displaying somewhere completely consistent with its age I would say it's in um minor to moderate deterioration is what you're seeing across it I don't think anything is severe couple pieces of maybe cracked glass crack muttons mullions nothing that can't be repaired poor repairs done over time with like wood as you mentioned as opposed to proper metal like steel being used so that that would need to be rectified um the two secretary the interior standards I I applied um to this application were standards 2 and six uh standard two historic character of the property retained and preserved removal of historic materials or alteration of features should be avoided um that's really important in justifying why the existing storefront um Canon should be preserved um then getting into my comments here the storefront should be preserved we've discussed that at at nauseum there are um deterioration throughout the storefront I attached um some pretty detailed guidance on how steel storefronts can using readily available materials and crafts people uh be restored and I would encourage the applicant to do that um if there are going to be any Replacements of materials they should match and uh design color texture profile I did touch on comment six of mine relates to accessibility um understand to concern and it rightfully should be a priority the owner however you're dealing with an existing building here and you have a you're lucky I think you have a 36in wide doorway typical wheelchairs 26 in while the existing storefront may not strictly comply with the Ada standards for a new construction project I think there are certainly alternative means of compliance you can use not necessarily severe as implementing an auto operator power assist or but simple things like training your staff if they see someone coming up in a wheelchair or with a mobility issue to assist that person um into the business those types of fairly simple um just operational things would allow the storefront to remain as it is while also providing um accessibility to people that need that as they're approaching um I would encourage the applicant to look at our Rehabilitation subcode leave it no less safe also leave it really no less accessible which I think by um making these minor repairs to the storefront you would be uh consistent with and I I would also just last ly on the accessibility thing look to how the federal government would apply accessibility standards if they own this and no one applies accessibility more strict than the federal government and there's specific Provisions in Ada that say um that it is not if it's not feasible to provide physical access to a historic property in a manner that will not threaten or destroy the historic significance of the building or facility alternative methods of access should be provided so I think if you apply an approach like that um and really let that drive the project the storefront can and should be preserved thank you so do you have any um remark uh you didn't really speak about the um Energy Efficiency of the Forefront and how that could be achieved and it's it's another one of our important deciding factors about what we chose so you have um the existing storefront is on a North elevation it's going to receive little less sunlight uh so it's not I don't think a major concern during the summer that you you have a not thermally broken storefront presently and I think you have to look at maybe more holistically things like EMB body carbon and energy and the that went into the existing storefront and how intensive that was in considering whether to rip the whole thing out to put in igus and Hollow aluminum framing that the next tenant may be in front of this commission to also rip out so like I guess like the alternative to the summer season is the winter season right so there there's the play of that and secondly with the 88 stuff I mean it's very tough on and I'm not trying to like play the small business role here but like at the end of the day like I'm going to be the one that gets the bad the bad look for someone who struggled or something like that you know not necessarily because people understand the balance that this is a building that wasn't necessarily designed originally for this type of use I I don't think I don't think anybody would hold it against you if if you maintained the storical Integrity of this site um yeah I think the flip side is more true if you destroy this storefront I think you'll get more grief than um than that um are we into the commentary yes well I don't know if did did you anything else you wanted to add gentlemen um the uh the Monclair um I forget what the the official title is of the historical work that you guys have for to follow but um there 's a section in there for accessibility as well oh our design guidelines yes your design guid thank you I just didn't have it well that's okay um and I believe that in there one of the reasons for um modifying store funds and entrances is is to create accessibility as one of the guidelines I think it's probably one of the interests to balance I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't disagree but um it's uh it's not determinative okay it's just one of the things that are in right but not at the expense of destroying a a a historic facade um so anything else because we'll start with our comments okay Nick um I'm sorry before we get into that can I just ask Stephen a question sure I just wanted to ask you a question about um bringing the recess clo uh the 8 in recess what your opinion was of that um modification I I completely get the origin of that Dimension from ADI and that being a you know a threshold issue for whether you comply with this or that big picture I don't think it's going to make the entry any more or less accessible if it's 18 in or 8 in recessed it's recessed it's still 36 in wide I still think a wheelchair can fit in there and with things like an intercom I I think it'll be as is with that more accessible than if the whole thing was ripped out and someone's left with a manual door okay um yeah I mean in terms of the Energy Efficiency I mean I don't know if you've had anything modeled by an HVAC subcontractor or anything I'm I'm I'm not convinced on it and I suggest you talk to maybe like Raymond's two doors down they have an original probably 1930s store front I've eaten there many times in the winter and in the summer right up to and they have tables right up to the glass um I'm sure you could find a way in the HVAC system to achieve what you need to um it's not prolonged use for anybody nobody's sitting there and working for eight hours a day it's a meal it's a short-term occupancy I think there's plenty of storefronts that are working with it on the same block um I I I'm sorry I didn't mean that we couldn't achieve conditioning the space achieving conditioning the space would not is not an energy efficient way of just have you can have your AC running full Blass the whole time keep it consistent um we're trying to do it more of of an efficient way um you will have the AC heat system the AC will be running all day it's a restaurant it's going to be running all day in the summer the Heat's going to be running all day in the winter I mean it's it's a commercial property I don't think you won't be running your systems at any point I'm going to disagree with with that statement and that um having a more energy efficient um GL glazing storefront it will reduce the need for cooling and heating yeah I'm just I'm not I'm not sold on it I've never been in a commercial restaurant space that isn't running some kind of conditioning at all times of the year um you also could get an airlock um it's a temporary structure I don't know exactly what the ordinance says but also Raymond is a building that has it because they have an old facade and in the winter there's a little metal and canvas piece that gets put out in front of the door and that's your air lock you save a lot of Energy Efficiency there that's in front of the door but it doesn't cover the whole right but the door is the primary part of where the air breakage comes yeah so I'm not convinced on the Energy Efficiency I don't think you need it um the most sustainable thing to do is to work with the building that's already there um that speaks to the embodied energy comment that Mr uh smullen had before I mean you're saving a big expense by not having to put a new storefront in if you just work with what's there already um and I think your energy problems aren't as as serious as as it's being made a case for given that there are other properties to on both sides that that work with current storefronts that are of the same age okay I okay John um I could imagine you could rebuild this door front with a steel frame insulated glass and and marble um uh bulkhead and make it all brand new and center the door and have it recessed and be a little bit wider and have all the profiles on the metal storefront I mean that's what is missing when we go to this Conair system all of a sudden it's this flat aluminum you lose all this texture that's there in the facade but I could imagine you could do that and then I would I might be more open to saying okay tear down the existing if you're going to that's not historically uh probably the you know true thing to do so I that was something that we did think about and I I know it gets to be very PR I I understand that and I understand you know the um uh you know I don't know the energy thing I mean you could lock up the windows too that it'd be more energy efficient so I I I think that's not an real argu or argument I can wrap my head around so um I this is one of those buildings and one of those streets in Montclair that I think are very important and add a lot to the charact the streetcape in Montclair and I would have a hard time approving what you're proposing yeah I am I am sympathetic to the business concerns um but ultimately I I do agree with my colleagues um and something that you know Stephen had mentioned earlier that stuck with me and we always have to consider is subsequent tenants we have to consider the long-term um uh protection of the streetscape and um given some of the U solutions that have been discussed tonight I do not not think it would be um appropriate to uh to lose this historic asset or to demolish or diminish it and I have to agree with my colleagues as well while I am sympathetic to what you're saying I do think that there are things that I mean we've discussed it here and I'm sure that um that you could come up with a solution that would um you know maintain the uh the Rhythm and the balance and as I said before some of these things that were done to some of the other storefronts on this facade were before our time but if you look at what like the barber shop um that was something what we you know they took down the awning and that was something that came before this commission and I know their their door I believe is is is not the original but right it's not the original but it wasn't when it came before us so we couldn't make them replicate your door and while I appreciate it's very generous to you know offer your door to them I don't think that that that hes Mike was talking about balance I don't think that that holds weight because what you are doing is changing the the uh facade of the this building in which works it's supposed to work as a Total Building it it and you know again if you if you know I have sympathy for your concerns and thinking that if this was a standoff building maybe not on Church Street you know that but still within the historic district I would feel more inclined to go with what you're proposing but I think that you're uh really changing the character of of of you know not only of the storefront but of the entire facade of the entire building so I I could not support uh what you're prop proposing here either I think you guys can support um a portion of what we're proposing correct what what is that we have sign application as well oh the sign [Applause] yes so what you're what you're proposing for that is to remove the awning the existing awning and then the the um do you have uh measurements as to where these will actually sit on the facade is that on it's on page two yeah should be be on um two yes and is the the the diesel and Duke uh the the the flat um the flat sign that's to the to the West the pin mounted sign the pin mounted sign what is the height of that the height is 2 feet so that is is that in in proportion to what the sign band is on these other Stef or it looks as though in your drawing that it sits above it I believe that maybe the other I mean in height in height it should be proportionate to yeah this one well that looks it looks huge yeah so it's that but there's a detail H2 HP so if you look at 2 hp2 see that we 2T tall BYT wide that's it's it's down here okay yeah and it's a pin mounted with with um light lighting no no light it's just a no lighting no illumination no illumination so it's pin mounted what what is theal metal on a metal board no pin mounted to the facade oh so there's no backing that's correct oh I'm sorry from you I I thought there was a backing so it's pin mounted to the facade okay that's that's the sign that's on the western side up in the right hand corner yes and then you have a blade sign then we have a blade sign that is bed back to the facade and supported by a metal bracket that sticks out and that sign is this large one I'm looking at here which is comes off the building 2 ft and is roughly 1 fo 10 high right and that those dimensions are within our sign ordinance yes okay the blade sign is is within our stuff and then the pin mounted one I'm just wondering um the looking at the uh height all the way across if that is higher two 2 feet then then what's at the same height of where sign going yeah okay okay thank you for describing that any questions I have comments question okay yeah I had a question just to follow up on a point from my report um 10 characters on that pin mounted sign how many penetrations are you anticipating through the wall to mount that um usually there's two per so 20 yeah and then there's four penetrations for the blade sign to hang the Outrigger yeah okay that's a lot and this is a limestone facade I think it's uh some type of concrete it didn't seem like Li from what I remember oh actually the the way that the the logo is since it's consistent it can have less yeah could couldn't it have have less pins since you're all one kind of if they're individual letters they they need two per but because the scrolling and descriptive nature of the of the sign the logo itself would require less well two per letter okay so do you have that schematic I don't have I don't have that specifics to you I just know that it's less than because they're consistent they're tied together right right well can we we could put it in the comments the resolution that right that the signage but what can we how many how many penetrations would be right I mean I don't know how heavy it is but it looks like you could do it in six I would say like three on diesel and three on to be honest the the sign manufacturer may not even need us to do any mounting at all it may be an adhesive that could be done and I don't know if you guys have objections to adhesives but it could be done with an adhesive oh Steve might have something well it depends on what the on what the back well you know what happens is this is a masonry building and this just going to pull in whatever adhesives you use so you're never going to be able to clean that off if you ever take it down so it has to be pin Mount I think the only way to deal with is pin mount it and then have the condition that they have to I don't know repair it repair it or the I don't know how you do that when the tenant disappears do it yeah I guess you apply it to the next tenant you know well that's what we've done yeah I think it's concrete too the facade so that's going to be easier than like Limestone you should definitely be limiting the of penetrations yeah I wouldn't glue it that's okay so no glue pin mounted minimum number of uh um pins and what about the blade sign I have a quick question sorry I'm just kind of thinking to the storefront thing is there any situation where seeing the interior condition of the storefront can be a factor to what we decide corre no no no because our purview is not interior it's only exterior we I'm talking about like the like the deterioration of like the like you've only seen it from the outside they've remove removed the walls to expose the the interior um of the frame like you see how it's rusted like where she chipped it you can see the deterioration but if you go on the on the interior side of it you know CU this just gets layers of paint over the years many times they just painted it and painted it to make it look you know fresh but on the inside it's a very different story as well you know you can kind of see from tripping away just a slight pre to what it looks like on the inside but then you'd have to make a case that it wasn't repairable is that what you're saying um I I guess we just have to explore this a little more and see like what you guys are open to you know I'm I'm just kind of looking at it from if the paint's un original we could strip the paint all the way back and and there are you know specialty paints that have a metallic kind of finish to them I think what's important to us is that the steel frame has the original bevels on it and the molding pattern it's not this big chunky flat coner store Front so I think we'd be open to looking at a color that matches the original no but what he's saying is that would it change our decision if like if I can prove from the inside that it's very it's IR repairable that it's really not like if I had a professional come in that that specialize in restoring the stuff which I can you know look into and he's like listen I can't there's nothing I can do with this you know it's it's kind of like one of those things that when you look at it from the inside it's like idiot you're going to see more damage on the inside of the storefront for sure I mean I look through the glass as much as I could and around the display window you could barely it seemed repairable completely I could not see about the transom um at the same time I think this commission's also saying they don't have purview over the inside so you may not if you if you're not using steel to structur from um structural Integrity standpoint I think is what they're saying yeah we're not we're not we're not asking for approval of the interior we're just saying you look at the the the structure of the storefront to see what's happening on the inside part of that but you can't see from the outside is it all equally bad in the across the whole storefront on the inside yeah it's pretty bad but it's not cing in I mean and and and well there's a big steill L there's a what like there's support beams above it that that's not load bearing well um I I I I guess I would comment and just say yeah if it's so bad then if you can replace the steel as it you know in the same profile and get your insulated windows then I would be open to that you'd be throwing away the original fabric I'd have to be convinced that it's it's can't be repaired or replaced in kind right yeah yeah in places um let's just talk about the signage that's where we were uh this building it looks like one of the things we were trying to do was create a sign band across all of this and now what they're proposing is a total I don't have a problem with the blade sign I think blade signs are great in general um I don't know about um how to me the diesel and Duke sign has nothing to do with this historic facade it doesn't take any clues from you know the joining Properties or so but I'm kind of looking at like the Ben vudi sign you know it seems it's a little generic you know what I mean and I don't I don't necessarily mind a little maybe there's less signage too it's more I was about to saybe it's more facade so it kind of brings out the building a little more okay kind of like it okay kind of like it yeah I and it's and it's all the way on the it's it's away from the rest of it and if it's within the the height I don't I think we can make sure that it would be the same height yeah so that would be one of the conditions stra in but the building department would tell you that I think you right Janice would probably have uh yeah I think you all be fine with that yeah I think so yeah but the signage you are so we can approve the removal of the awning which would have to you'd have to uh uh repair that because there's going to be um holes in that right be into the storefront to be honest but if there is they attach the the Met okay okay but if there are penetration right that that that would have to be fixed okay do you have anything else Stephen about the awnings and the signage of what we're discussing because that's what could be approved yeah when I was there looking at this I looked at from the perspective of how you would take this awning off and it is definitely anchored into the steel Mion but I don't think it's um insurmountable to take it off I I think the thing with the signage and is again 20 years from now there'll be a new tenant new sign so you look at signage in terms of what kind of damage you're doing to the historic fabric so if you know there's minimum amount of penetrations and it gets filled down the road you know that's all we can ask for I guess right so the pin the pin maned sign would have the minimum amount of of uh holes intrusions and the blade sign is okay as presented yeah okay and then the awning the removal of the awning would be approved it's anchored into the steel uh uh frame as you've testified that's okay but that would be uh taken off because they've taken you when we first when I first came here um there were awnings all the way across and so the Ben bonti and the barber shop took off their ownings and awnings rather and then somehow there's an historic photograph that probably is from like the 30s or the 40s that has some but at one point there were awnings all across all across it so that was part of our discussion is that um historically there would have been no awning so that's why when people come and say they want to take the awning off we say that that's a great idea and just and have a sign band so um okay so now we have to make a uh a motion um the sign I guess one other point was the marble if that can be removed or not I because it's damage crap right it's um well we should talk to The Architects here um have you looked at it I mean I I I haven't looked at it I would have to defer to I remember maybe one piece had a full crack through it but everything else seemed like that was what I thought pretty straight forward patching right definitely wouldn't rise to the occasion of needing to be removed entirely do you know what you patch marble with a compatible you know some type of consultant I don't know if it's epoxy based or what for that type of stone you should test um in an inconspicuous like countertop guy can tell you how to patch a a stone top you know with compatible materials so in the most simplest way yeah cuz again I mean even the the uh one of the bulkheads I think the Green Room has this kind of faux marble that on it which you know is faux marble but it it works more with what what what was there I I would say to keep what's there and repair it what what a yeah my colle say our our proposal was to keep what's there and cover it so we weren't planning on removing anything but we wanted to cover so you don't see these crack lines but should another tenant come in later on they can remove it we're not trying to damage um or further you know just more or less preserve what's there behind but if we're saying that we want it to to maintain the historic facade and if it's if it's repairable or restorable you know or fixable then um I would what everybody else thinks here large portions of it because it's not just craft right we're talking about ho like H if it comes to a marble guy like say he's can't really repair you have to cut this piece out and put a new piece in you know where's the it's not cracks that's that's kind of the point like if it was just a crack yeah we could maybe fild a can we can we can we handle that on site yes I I was just going to say that I think we should we we do that but um so but I I I would uh move to deny this application uh for the storefront and move to accept the uh each as shown and removal of the awning and removal of the awning removal of the awning yes do we have a second on that second okay then I think we should vote oh just one just one issue do we need to with this motion also state that we will uh the design Review Committee will review the marble on site and make a determination at a later date well that review right that's the store front right but the we're denying the application uh we're we're stating that it's not appropriate right we're denying the certificate of appropriateness with respect when someone comes to us and they want to repair something forget about this whole new storefront kind of thing isn't that something where the design the uh minor applications committee can meet or design Comm me there to look at the repair okay so that's all're say no I'm not disagree but but but how do we phrase that with in the motion within the motion that's what we're saying yeah so I would go ahead so I would I would just say um I would say I no I would say we deny it and let them come to us and say they want to rep they want us to look at separately look at the then we're not agreeing to anything just legally Janine if we deny the entire if we say if we say it's not appropriate we deny the CVA can we then go on site and review the marble separately or do they need to have a whole new application at that point which is what I'm trying to avoid them having to do that's the problem I I think you know if it were a minor repair which you know obviously the applicant thinks it's not and therefore we don't know what's going to happen in the field we don't know how you're going to view what they're going to show you um you know once you've denied it they have to reapply they have to Ren notice and everything else so my suggestion would be um to deny everything except the marble and to uh defer that to the minor work committee or whatever we call it design um Review Committee are we doing DRC or are we doing um yeah what do we we went into the field revisions committee revisions revision revisions and to to defer the uh the Marvel sill to the revisions committee so I so I would revise the motion oh he's already we're we're going to oh can we um ask you guys a question just the the legal matters sure um can we um kind of B off John yeah just what you guys are discussing right now can we approve the signage yes and can we do the thing that we're just talking about with the marble and can we present a new um storefront to you guys uh storefront option without having to re notice and do all this other stuff I would but you just doesn't sound that would it make sense to for them to with not withdraw but you can't yeah if you withdraw you have right come back to the to the committee with a new option for a storefront you you could ask them if they'd like to um not have you vote on this and to adjourn it that okay would you like us to not vote and adjourn and adjourn to come back with something you guys would be absolutely comfortable well happy to see like I don't want to wait like I don't want to waste your guys time I I I can't afford to waste more time you know so I don't I don't want to like would it be worth it to actually prop so you're wondering what are the odds of us saying rip the rip the storefront hey on you know April 25th you told me that I could do it now you're say you know it's not like but like is there a world where you see that that's a Beau little option well we don't know what you're going to present I think the only I think the only option that we have to present to you guys besides just keeping what's there and putting in new glass and maybe patching a few things here and there is to do with um Mr REM remn Remnant sorry was suggesting is we recreate what the exterior of the storefront looks like in terms of the profile of the metal and on the back side it's going to be something different that um uh is going to be able to accept uh the insulated glass well is this something you could get together for our next meeting which is May May 9th how late are you guys here tonight don't know doesn't the clock strike in 10 yeah uh yeah yeah yeah I would say I wouldn't NE based on what you just said I'd be open to seeing what you would propose okay I would I don't dismiss it right away I understand the historic Fabric and not losing just that but I'd be open to to that yeah because we were trying to respect the what the storefront looked like but we were trying to do it in the newer technology but I I understand where everyone's coming from here and I think that that may be an option but we have to run the numbers again and try to figure out how that would all work so if I could just add um having done a couple steel storefronts to mimic and a historic one or maybe just not that's a completely different category of storefront in terms of cost to do this correctly yeah um if you were with a corer storefront you're actually Faithfully going to um recreate those profiles in a modern storefront with igus I mean we're this is like 51x it's a completely different storefront um I've heard this be proposed many times this type of design in Hoboken I don't think I can point to one example where this actually got done well where someone said I have this Art Deco storefront very thin sight lines this and that it's play class I'm going to igu I'm going to recreate the profiles it it never really works they show us details sometimes they're believable and in the end you end up with these fat mions and a lot of silicon sealing um I don't think we're asking I think we're saying less is more for this application not it's been the theme for the for the evening I agree um I am wondering if we can uh approve the signage and maybe adjourn the other portion of this if you do want toate the application we bate the application like I don't know if you need to order things for the signs and and get the a out but um you have to ask the applicant to consent to adjourn technically and then you vote on that okay um but if you say you'd like to adjourn the application with the exception of signage which can go forward to a vote uh tonight um go ahead and say it and that you understand okay so you're so so you're consenting to an ajour mment uh to May 9th 7:30 and uh no further notice with the approval of the sign with the approval yeah well they haven't formally voted yet but we understand that that's okay so that's the motion okay the motion is to adjourn this application with the exception of signage to May 9th no further notice and to vote on the sign okay motion to adjourn the application uh with the exception of the signage and Awning removal and Awning removal which we vote to which uh we will approve is that coming out right uh well you forgot to say to May 9th ah sorry try this again all right motion to adjourn the application until May 9th with the exception of the wanting removal and signage uh which uh we approve we approve okay second in FA all in favor all in favor I I I okay okay yeah we don't need should we do a roll call you have to call the Roll But call the just put the xes yes John yes Nick yes okay all right so we'll see you on May 9th yeah okay yeah thank you guys okay thank you all right okay that debate took all the took the whole audience all right guys thank you thank you good night I think that's it on our agenda oh we have a we have discussion any any uh um just I think we should chair oh sorry apologies chair I was just going to say I think that we should um get our ad hoc committee on the um on the master plan exactly work moving moving yeah we need to we need to meet sooner rather than later right okay um and my question to that uh was I wanted to ask you Stephen about possible Grant if we need to re uh write our uh revisit our HP element of the master plan um we're waiting on a grant from the CLG uh for the uh second part of the upper mon Clair commuter District which is a survey of about over 300 um uh structures so is there anything that you know of in the pipeline that we could apply for uh uh assistance in Grant wise uh as a help for all of us um another Grant opport another Grant source that would come through fairly quickly we need to get this done within the next year I believe okay yeah off the top of my head I don't but there's grants available every week of every month so I'll look into it and I'll if you would that would be great because I think that would help us I believe it's 2025 is when we have to it's 2025 so Master right and what are the costs associated with that other than us getting together and it has to get re whatever we touch gets Rewritten in some way is that I think that would be the cost right having a professional rewrite our having professional revisit what we have which was written in 2015 or whatever and then um but I'm I'm suggesting applying for a grant to do that uhhuh and I know that there are grants of I just haven't had the opportunity to look at is there a way to evaluate how much this will cost ahead of time well can we have St look at it and say well the last one that was written that we had the the HP element I thought that was 25,000 25,000 yeah do J like I'm up in my legal fees right I me say 20 20 to 40 right that's not they're typically pretty involved documents wow no if you SE you've seen RHP element yeah it's a pretty involved it is I mean we could rewrite it rewrite it but you're talking about the graph and everything else the whole composition whole new element M right that was the 2015 want a re-exam or was that from scratch that'll that was a re-exam of the original hpl AIT which was like 10 pages I mean it wasn't so they basically it was from scratch effectively exactly yeah you have a good one already a reexamine that now8 years later it's probably on the lower end of that Spectrum clost it should be a tremendous LIF why did you do have a good one to begin with sometimes we're starting with 10 page ones in right right to make them real documents that are 100 pages long so everybody something to read on a Recon wouldn't the first step be to meet and examine it and see what we're concerned about or what we think needs to be changed oh yeah rather than throwing out the whole baby with the bath water see what you know and yeah yeah okay so that's probably the first step right well that's why we should meet the three of us are on that right okay yeah right great okay great so that's Mike Kathy and John John John we should meet before May and then before our next meeting which means to report back a little bit right report back and then maybe at that point we'll have an idea of what is and TimeWise whether this will fit in with what we're looking at to accompl not going anywhere really so another where we finish with that discussion another point of discussion um in our packet we got the um the the uh it's a bill from uh saeran lanin uh which is Janine's uh uh services and are we supposed to approve this fa I didn't quite understand why this was in our packet um Janice will be emailing you about this um one second and I think it's also for approval yeah what that what say that again it is for approval on the planning board we do approve all bills right uh so I think that makes sense to do that here as well yeah it's just that we've never done we've never approved a a bill like this before so um but has everyone had the opportunity to look at this seen it yeah we'll see it was in our it was in our packet I have an extra copy if you want for whatever reason sorry what was that does anyone need an extra copy I just lent mine to John yeah I don't have a problem with it okay Nick have you have you reviewed it yeah I could say that all of my phone calls are are legit usually like pick up the phone yeah I mean I have no comment on anything other than the attendance meetings any correspondents but all right so then do we may have a motion to approve the bill as uh for saeran lanin suffer and lanin it's Sherman L schaer shafferman Lake and blumstein and bladder you just say the first two motion to approve the bills for schaer Laken okay second okay we have two all in favor I I okay thank you congratulations so I think that any other points of discussion before we so normally attorney bills are conven no I'm not conven disperse all right so a motion to I move to adjourn second all in favor I okay is the TV still running