##VIDEO ID:PAYTbMGBq0I## good evening everyone and uh this is a regular meeting of the zoning Board of adjustment for Wednesday January 16th 2025 notice has been given in accordance with the open public meetings act by posting a copy of the notice on the first floor of the municipal building and sending a copy to the Montclair times Star Ledger and Herald news this is a public Hearing in which any members of the public are welcome to attend the meeting agenda is available on the Monclair website as is a link to the Township's YouTube channel where the hearing can be viewed live or after the fact the hearing is also being televised on Channel 34 and we have um one change to the agenda the hearing for application 2907 627 Valley Road um is being postponed to February 5th 2025 that's without further not without the need for further public notice thank you I'll call the role chair Harrison here Vice chair Mulla is not present Mr Coffield here Mr church here Miss Harris here Mr Moore is not present Mr Simon here Mr Vieira is not present Miss Grant here Mr Griffith here and Mr Cruz is not present Mr Sullivan here okay all right the next order of business is to elect a chair for 2025 is there any nominations nominate Mr Harrison is there a second Mr Church uh all in favor I okay um Mr molik who thought he was going to be here at a heal issue this evening so he said he couldn't come but said if you want him he was willing to serve as Vice chair again but okay so nominate Mr mull I second any other nominations all in favor say I I I any opposed okay we have the minutes from the December 18th meeting what about the secretary and assistant secretary oh can we do them together yes okay so it' be someone want to move for Janice to be secretary and zob to be assistant secretary I'll make that motion Mr chairman is there a second second any other nominations all in favor say I hi any opposed um tell Janice she has the great honor of once again serving as our secretary I have the minutes um on page page two um the um line well 38 technically the resolution for Woodmont Road I'm abstaining then page six uh line 207 it should be should be Miss Hubert um and then on line 209 it should be that two public hearings were held and then in 9 210 following open Public's meeting act and Municipal land use law requirements and then on page 10 um on line 399 uh replace included with resembled and then page 401 um delete the phrase who was initially in favor and then on line 402 uh after for something to be done put on the property and then unline 403 that whole phrase also discuss the link through pointing delete that and so we'll just read the board I have to make this English huh oh also pointed out that this is a single family dwelling neighborhood and then on line on the next page on 405 um insert but after providing with one for affordable housing and then insert the word unit anyone else with any changes to those minutes if not someone want to move the minutes with those changes uh I'll move the minutes with the changes second all in favor say I I I any opposed any obain itions abstain and we have the resolution um for 400 Orange Road I don't have any changes for that does anyone else have any changes no not someone want to move the resolution um the eligibility the last who voted on mruz and Mr Mr and Miss Harris wasn't here so we need a motion to move the resolution yes I make a motion to move the resolution second all in favor say I I any opposed any extensions and then we have a request to extend the approval for the Barkley application on 137 Walnut Street this will be the fifth and final extension um does anyone have any comments discussion on that request not how how long is this extension for six months one one year it's and mpal andw so it's from the date the resolution was adopted originally so um it was adopted November 4th so this would take them until November 4th of 2025 this year got it is that five a hard limit is that is a hard limit having fun with a client on that issue motion to um to extend the application second all in favor say I I I any opposed any extensions the first application is the continuation of the public hearing for the property at 26 Orange Road Mercury Monclair LLC Mr chac are you all right well you're getting settled I'm going to swear Z have been for the two hearings tonight would you raise your right hand do you swear to tell the truth of the matter pending before the board I do would you state your name and position with the municipality zanab cosmi assistant planner thank you good evening uh Mr chairman members of the board happy New Year everyone um Alan tulac appearing on behalf of the applicant Mercury M Clair LLC be helpful if I got the right file uh as you know this is a continuation of the hearing that we commenced on December 4th involving property located at 26 Orange Road um which is in the two R22 family zoning District uh property contains a three-story nonconforming mixed use building with with office space on the first floor and three residential apartments on the second and third floors the application is to uh we're seeking site plan approval as well as a use variance to convert the first floor office space to a fourth uh residential uh dwelling unit in the building um at the hearing in December unfortunately uh our architect was not able to attend that meeting we tried to go forward without him um but uh there the board had a number of questions and concerns legitimate ones I should add uh regarding the floor plan that had been submitted so uh in view of that we uh adjourn the hearing and uh we're here tonight to um with the architect who's ready to testify um and also since the last meeting and again partially in response to uh the planners memo as well as concerns and comments raised by the board um the floor plan was revised significantly um and um we've reduced the apart the proposed apartment from three bedrooms to two bedrooms and made other changes which the the architect will address following the uh architect's testimony uh our Final witness will testify and that's William stimmel who uh is a site engineer as well as professional planner for the application sorry just noting for the record that Mr Moore has arrived just in time okay so um if I can have I'm gonna I'm not going to try to pronounce this first name um you can yeah U my name is how about I swear you and then you're going to give do I need to stand up here no you can stay right there would you raise your right hand do you swear to tell the truth in the matter pending before the board yes would you state your name and address to the record uh my name is Shan pun address 36 sou M Ro M okay okay um hang um would you start by uh providing the board with your educational background and your professional qualifications definely definitely so um again my name is Shan p uh I hold a bachelor degree of architecture and I hold a master degree of urban and Regional planning in Virginia Tech I start my uh professional career starting from 2010 and I'm licensed in New York and New Jersey starting from 2015 I'm also a zooming board member of the neighboring uh Township of euben um yep that's my credentials okay and your license uh as a architect in the state of New Jersey in good standing yes and active okay Mr chair accept thank you thank you all right all right you prepared the original floor plan for this application yes correct and you also some recently submitted a revised floor plan correct and just so the record's clear um I believe the the date of the revised the original plan I think was undated but the revised plan has a an issue date of December 11 2024 is that correct that's been submit from last time right yes okay all right so what I'd like you to do and you can use the uh uh projection screen uh if you wish is to just um run through the you go through the floor plan revised floor plan uh with the board and as you're doing that perhaps you can point out um or identify the more significant changes from the original plan yep just so it's clear cuz y the after the last hearing there was a floor plan prepared that's dated January 2 2025 isn't that correct yep that's the plan showing on the screen okay and and then there's was a subsequent plan that's floating around called an alternate plan with a date of January 14 2025 which I assume you're going to refer to in your testimony yep okay make sure both of them I know we have go I have the wrong if you don't mind s up yep just take um the microphone if you need it hello check check all right cool um as I'm going to use the Thea pointer to easy um to navigate through the presentation on the left hand side uh no matter which drawing I'm submitting it's the same it's depicting the existing uh contion of the drawing and even though the previous uh floor use is actually office if you look at this plan this is one office second office this is a u meeting room and then that's another office and another office but you can see there's two bedroom here so it's actually more intended to residential uh layout inside of office So based on that um the the uh revised plan is trying to inherit as much as we can um of that building but uh trying to make it uh meet building code um this plan uh it's been revised uh from the last plan according to the board's uh comments just there was a question from a board member this is the January 2 2 2025 plan correct this is a it's been dated both here and here uh if I record it correctly right corner11 says 0102 y 2025 yep that's correct and that's the same date that's up on the insurance schule half yep that's correct we're looking at right now yes that's what we're looking at right now all right um what we have done is converting or combining the front of these two room into a living room and then we have one bedroom second bedroom there um the first point I want to make is um we did not change any EG system from the floor and the floor above and um originally before this plan we have the back equest at this corner we have one entrance here to that definitely satifies satisfies saying the equest requirement so one of the comments from last time is that we don't want to go out through a bedroom right so we take that U into our cons consideration and we are changing that so if you see the equest is coming from this corridor make a left and going back to the left hand side from the uh to the rear yard the front definitely is staying the same so that's one of the major change from the last last time and and the second comments uh from the last time is um the about the windows right for bedroom one and bedroom two um there's a comment about the windows and as you see from the bedroom one there is existing Windows there two of them from the if we're looking at this one is the right hand side um currently I have to say um it's uh we need to verify whether that's a e can be served as a egress window or not but along the way we would definitely make sure one of them is a e window which means like the fir fighting break in and help people so it's meet it will meet the C for this building and if we're looking at current layout on the left hand side with a a diagonal line that's actually the staircase going to the floor upside and this uh room is actually right behind it so that means it leave us no choice to add a eest Windows there um there is uh according to our building code um let me see it's a 2021 International residential code R 311 10.1 um we do need to provide egress Windows to any sleeping units except if this building it's fully sprinkle on up right so currently it's not but I've talked with the uh the client um we would like to make it a fully sprinkler building so in that case is actually much better than having an ESS uh window there um so this is um a brief introduction of this layout I'm going to switch to the next one before you do that y um um I think it's fairly clear but you've got two entrance doors in the front of the building can and the one on the right is for the first floor is that correct this one is actually for the second floor and third floor that's on the left side y it's not connecting to this um uh unit right okay at the at the the rear of that cross-hatched area on the left side where there's an angled right there yeah y there's currently a door there is that is that correct on the outside we can see there's a door but it's being connected to this Corridor right but this door connecting to the corridor is not going to benefit anything about this equest window right okay but is that door going to remain yep okay but that door only provides uh uh an entry point to upair to the upstairs upstairs yeah okay mhm and then just in the rear you I know you mentioned this briefly but um you're showing one door there in a different location than the original plant if we look into the existing plan to the left this door has been hatched and demolished and will be relocate to here which is uh showing on the plan in the middle okay yeah okay all right thank you you can continue yep now um cuz uh I I definitely want to open the conversation saying that why do we want to have a erress uh window to the bedroom I do see the benefit of having a Windows to a slepping unit right but based on this floor plan and the resources we can have we either lose the windows for a sleeping units or the living room right so with that said I also uh quickly do this design option to alternate the living room location and the bedroom okay in this design option yes we can have a window if I'm pointing here it it has existing window there right we can definitely make sure that is egress window have the required size have the required um rating of the material and make that as a egress window right so right now I'm presenting to AutoNation um the I've talked with the client actually prefer to have a fully sprinkler system so but no matter how we presented this option to the board so hopefully the board can consider it all right just so it's clear the drawing that's on the screen now that you're referring to is entitled zoning application plan alternation Y a102 and I believe that has the date of January 14th 1325 yep 13 I believe okay yep all right MH so 14 January 14 14 okay yeah okay I I I think I cut you off you were about to say were you about to say that the client prefers the fully sprinkler system because considering it it's a 4 unit housing right um if it's above two unit of the housing from a professional perspective I would recommend the client to go with a fully sprinkler um direction as well and she's fully on board she want to make sure everybody live in this building we have a safety um uh the top safety uh protection all right yeah and the rest of them um from the EG from the back is the same as the previous option okay yep okay so I'm willing to take any questions no further questions okay well um this well when I get started with this project right um the survey information is not there so all those measurements is coming from the interior side once the survey get in um it's leave me to limit of the time to adjust the surve right now what you're seeing here is it's uh uh have been revised to survey so if reflecting to the true uh situation as best as we can well actually um Mr callfield our next witness can testify to that who's our engineer who actually reviewed the survey discussed it with the surveyor so I the survey actually as Mr stimel can testify is actually correct I mean um thank you for uh showing the revision um I just find it interesting that the client would prefer to install a full building sprinkler system which is quite expensive as opposed to just making inass windows Yep he he is very generous and he is definitely a person he would like it's not my first project with him he would she she would like to make everything by Co and then even better than that I I've have multiple conversation with her um okay just if if they don't go with that option and you go with the alternate plan um also need to make sure that those windows are the proper height above the ground the size the height uh and the material okay um just question for Mr Sullivan and Mr Harrison do we have to specify the number of bedrooms that we're approving with this residential conversion yeah I mean this application's in front of us so they've indicated it's two bedrooms and two bathrooms and that's how the resolution would read okay to but we have to specify the number ofed in the resolution if you want to I don't know that seemed to be a a point of the board last meeting that they there was a preference for this two bedrooms so consistent with what the board wanted that would be the two bedrooms I mean I'm less concerned about whether it's two or three bedrooms but seem to be a board concern I am too I just think once they get into the building department they're going to realize there's more limitations here than they expect this might be just a very large one-bedroom and would prefer not to see this application we could address that in a condition that would permit them to do otherwise if that's the way the board wants to go okay thank you um no further just a point of clarity in in the the hashed area in the towards the back door what is that well that's um stair case going to the second and third floor so it comes down that's on the back half so that just goes down the stairs and can go right out the back door will they also have access to that hallway cuz the hallway seems to go directly into the first floor unit uh which hallway you're referring to hallway 4 that's directly opposite the back door that that one it could potentially be a shaed with all those running dcks I'll say it again that that one could be the duct going through the B uh the building so it's not accessible so the so the striped area is the stairway coming down just make sure we're talking about you maybe you can just use your pointer to make sure we're okay so are you talking about this yes that is I I believe that is not accessible from um the interior of this unit currently you can only have a closet here and then it's going out directly okay going out I'm I'm not following cuz at the what I'm looking at it opens the door opens out but if you were to walk down that hallway you could turn directly into the unit no this unit yeah no where's the barrier par where's I don't see how it's separated or blocked off uh it in here if you see a small door here that is actually a closet right now that's not going outside it's not going to the staircase that's actually a closet so if the hash area have a door is going out and connecting to the Upper Floor am I the only one not getting this I'm not so you're saying this is a closet right now yes this area but I I I have to I have to put a disclaimer here as well cuz originally the survey is on I mean measurement is only on the first floor right so uh this is this area is not related to this unit that's something I can confirm is there or isn't there currently a door from the existing office into that hatched area this this door yes only have a closet that's a very small closet where could you show on the plan where the the wall of the closet ends it's just around here there a it's a war here but because we are not touching that space so I hatch it out so that closet will remain in either plan yep but you said it's not accessible from the so it's a closet for the first unit yes but the rest of the space is be blocked off because you said the closet ends that yeah if if you follow my my pointer yeah this area tiny area will be a closet that's accessible to the first floor only accessible to the first floor and the rest of that space is to the second floor yes got it okay so now on the the other the long hallway that goes from the front door you're saying there's a door at the end of that hallway that goes outside this door is it's it's there going to the second what's on the other end it's just space this area yeah fairly honest with with you I did not get into that area but I did not get into this area but from the in inside it's not connecting with the current unit I understand that but saying Once you walk to that door and you walk to the end what's at the end is there a door outside or no cuz you said that's the staircase to the second floor correct so what's at the end of that is it just a staircase in a dead end I to be honest I don't know about that because it's not related to to the unit okay yeah thank you co so when you draw a floor plan you cut the section through the building at about 3 ft off the ground or you pick certain elevation you cut it and then you draw everything at that level and you've chosen let me finish let me finish sure you've chosen to not show us chunks to the plan because you've hatched it and I find it kind of uh incomplete to show me a hatch and then tell me what's there when you are drawing floor plans and you're a registered architect so I so I've I've been working from 600 met Tower to residential to right now the biggest uh building in New York city that is a typical practice if that area is not related to the unit right but from a professional standpoint unless we are talking about the unit above this floor this is not related to this unit it's you when I started I explained you cut the section at a certain height above the ground and you show everything at that level so for instance let's talk about the closet to the left of hallway 04 MH there's a door going in there and it's all hatched your verbal description is that the part near the door is actually accessible closet space for the people on the ground floor and the part low below the door is quote unquote used by the second floor this area yeah how could they use that space if they're on the second floor and this is on the first floor I don't understand this area you mean yeah no up at the top where the closet is that area so where the door is at the top it's a 3ft wide closet it's about I don't know 12T long is that whole 3x12 closet a closet space accessible for the first floor partial of it is accessible which part um it's aligning with this this area so there's like a 3ft by 4T closet at the end similar yeah and what's in the rest of the hatch space that hatch space it's been blocked from inside is what it's been blocked from inside I won't be able to get access to it it's it's closed off you're saying it's dead dead space yes and nobody knows what's there at least right now not until we open the wall we won't be able to know what's inside it's a the wall is it a masonry wall I don't know it's right now from here it's a gy wall some W wall right but no matter it's amazing war or Egyptian W ball not until we open it up we won't be able to see what's inside I would say at least you should have shown the wall that defines the closet that's accessible I can't update that and sorry um so now let's talk about the larger hatch space below there on the left MH so you've said that that the doorway opens to a stair that goes up to the second level mhm so is that the only place you can get to when I open that door the from the street is this stair do the full width of that closet and of that slot and go up or is there a way around the stair to get underneath it I I I I cannot speak too much of the de detail in this hedge area that's why I'm hedging it right but this is the unit that we are talking about and um if you have spec specific requirement I can definitely verify it and if you have any concern uh the relationship between this staircase and that unit I can try to explain I'm concerned because I want to see the whole plan I think if you're asking me to evaluate a a plan I want to see the whole thing I don't want to have part of it disguised from me understand I understand so to ask you a few questions if I may sure at the top of that hatched area on the lower left the angle at the angle part there no right there there you go Bingo somebody said there's a door there mhm yeah from the outside you can see a door there from the outside in and where do that door lead to that door is what I can confirm is not leading to this unit what it's not leading to this unit where does it lead to I have does it go to the basement does it go around the stair in the front I I have to confirm on side if that's the case so I I ask that because if it goes under the stair and gets to the front door you could potentially make that a vestibule from the street and provide egress from your backyard through that space with a minimum of alteration you mean I think maybe I don't know I can't see it I don't know well well e egress window has to connect to the outside and public way right away it cannot go through any enclosed space so you have a bed yeah so you have a bedroom in the back that has an eag window on the other side of the plan right hand side of the plan you mean here Windows right there so where where's the public RightWay that I get to from there it has it has space between this W and adjacent property that is open space and from here you have to get to the public right away that to me that's a sidewalk no you you are right and you'll have to walk across the property line to get there no and a yard sorry and a yard it has it has to connect to the public right away of the yard of your property so side yard is a yard right the property Line's right against the side of the building there there's a concrete side on the right hand side where the angle comes in right so that's why I I propose slab there right it's looks to be about 3 ft wide and along that and in that angled wall is a masonry opening that's been filled in the the the size of this angle I cannot guarantee it's big enough for a egest Windows we have a square footage requirement for a egest Windows and from the side contion I have the fully 3D scan on my phone if you want I can present that if you want me to present that just to be I'm talking about the one on the other side right right here that bedroom yeah and I'm talking about the angled wall that you come down from there y see where the stair is in the lower right hand corner SS the stair in the lower right hand corner right here that one if you go straight up from there there's an angle wall on the exterior yeah right there yep there's a masonry opening there that's been filled okay yep right show yep and you could have a door there and you could make a vestule that connects that to the front I only asked this question because it strikes me as it would provide a safer means of egress for the people that are getting out the the the windows of their bedroom are you talking about the ordination or talking about the original plan I are you talking about this alteration plan dated January 14 or are you talking about this plan dated on January 2nd which is this one this bedroom doesn't have any windows and you're talking about adding a window here right I'm I'm asking about putting a door there that would allow erress your your and your new plan that's all I want to talk about your new plan you want to put a a door here to get out right you'd have to put a vestibule in this in the space around the stair that connects that door to the front door and they'd have to exit through that vestibule but at least at least you've managed to get people from the backyard to the sidewalk on your property so so we are not talking about any eest window anymore we are talking about are we still on the topic of window sir I I'm trying to get him out of the backyard you want to get to the back backyard I want to get from the backyard to the street and right now you you're concerning the people cannot get through this here outside the B of of of of the wall no yeah you don't not without stepping over the property line and walking across the neighbor's yard yeah definitely right I put up a fence than you can I I've I've bring this up to the client as well and that's why we I believe our client High landscape uh uh uh designer we can coordinate that and uh I I specifically bring this up to our clients in that there's a a comments from the last meeting that to close both of this this door right and and I was telling them if we close it out the backyard is completely waste that's why we are alternating to this side and still provide assets from at least this unit my my last point will be that in your floor plans in the back there's a wood stair there's two columns there's a deck you don't show that in your floor plans neither you're existing or you're new it's shown up in the in the survey that you provided yep that's that's so so if I want to say this is a interior alteration right and this meeting is talking about land use pardon me right so uh I would like to do my best to help you to address any concern if you have right and You' talk about the backyard yes we can update that and that's that will be designed along the way doesn't make doesn't make sense to me I'm sorry um I have no more questions thank you let me me do my concern which somewhat is the same name is Mr Griffith's concerned but a different reason I'll do this more in depth with Mr stimo but one of the issues we raised um at the prior hearing was how is the rear yard going to be maintained and it's largely Mr stimmel's problem but the question I have for you is one of the concerns we had um was you know was someone going to have to bring a lawn mower or whatever through the building but now you're telling us that there's an existing closet um right by that the new proposed rear entrance and but as has been pointed out we don't know the size of that closet to know whether that's an area where um you know whatever would be stored to M properly maintain the backyard which would not mean it wouldn't have to go through the whole apartment um and so what is the size of that you know where is the wall you're talking about that separates the closet you know I'd like to know the size of that to know you know can we require that that be used for equipment to maintain the rear yard I understand your question um at this moment um I I I I will say we will update that wall in the the plan um but from my perspective that's belong to this unit and the backyard we have to define whether who is going to maintain it and if you considering storing the maintenance uh equipment we would be able to probably utilize some of the hatch area but again that's going to be the next step that's going to be from my perspective I I I have to considering and Revis um accordingly so chairman I just want to point out Mr siml is prepared to address the lawn and the yeah I just yeah wanted to deal with the interior of the building with the architect and MH um the and what you're indicating is that the applicants preference is to go with the the January 2nd plans rather than having the one bedroom move to the front the building is shown on the later plans yep at the and as Mr Griffith said the survey and the photo show that there's there's a stair at the rear of the building does that go to the second floor I assume because it wouldn't need I mean I don't is that a usable stairway that gives them access to the rear yard you mean the stus it's it's over on as you're facing the building from behind it's on the left side right side of the building as they're facing it from the front I have to verify that um okay and to repeat and you have you don't know what's in the spa the hatched area that's on the left side um at the front 2/3 of the building is that correct other than there's a stairway there yes okay any other questions for members of the board I I'll just comment uh um to the chair's point it's hard to make a determination with not knowing what's on the other side of the wall we've seen applications where um an applicant will come back after many years and ask to expand um with I guess the the existing space or the adjacent space and that's a lane where potentially approving where it's unknown down the line it could turn into something like that right so um I guess we just want to be clear um and also see if there's an egress possibility as well as um uh Griffith uh my colleague Griffith mentioned as well you know yep understand and safety right and sprinklers are great um but if you've got to get out well well by building code sure right we we provide adequate e solution for this this building and this unit and plus we willing to I put sprinkling system there sprinkling system according to current building code is probably the most security method to protect the the tenant in the space right but the area is Zone it's a it's zone for two families right understand and now it's jumping to a potential four family understand so there's reason for that yes so we we we leaning towards a fully sprinkle system even it's 100 unit of the apartment sprinkler system should suffix thank you for the comments oh just one quick question to um you're showing the location of the door now the rear door um exist there currently exist two condensing units right there where will you relocate them yeah no no the exterior door that you show yep um there're actually two from the photos in the um planner report there's two condensing units there where will you we can we can relocate that if if um you have a conern okay okay are there any members of the audience who have questions for this witness want to call your next witness yes what I'd like to do Mr chairman is actually call uh my Cent who can I think answer a lot of the questions the board had um of the architect so um I'm going to recall girang Chang testified at the last meeting okay you understand you're still under oath yes sir just state your name and address for the record please uh my name is Jon CH uh my address is 331 laf Avenue chadam New Jersey 07928 Jo you heard the the questions that the board had um to do with the hatched areas and the closet and the rear doors and all can you yes answer some and provide some clarity sure um May I yeah sure you have to use the microphone sure hello okay um sorry um so basically this is like a hallway that leads up to the second floor and then like right here this is basically when the stairs goes up there is the um the hollow space so we just keep like nothing there right now that I don't think it's really usable because like this is the stair like this is the hallway and then the stair turn into here so this is just like a space that go like that to go up to the stairs um and then and um basically the windows that you guys see on the picture is the window right here so this is the window that is on the hallway that is not related to the first unit so this basically this door is going to the hallway go to the hallway go up all the way to the second floor now the first floor is here right so here this is the stair that go to the second floor and this is the door that leads to the first floor right now um the space that's right down here on the hashtag it's basically again it's like you go up on the stairs there is the space also go from low to the high so I just keept like water there right now my trick water so um um the second floor cannot get out from there for sure because like the stair basically from the second floor will covers that space so they they cannot access to that that's really just access for the first floor CL or first floor residents um so that's where where they're going to the current existing plan is we have like the closed wall right here right this is the door that's going to the backyard the proposed plan is we're going to close basically I'll close it so like the bedroom is not directly going to the backyard and then like the door is going to remove to here um again the hashtag right here is where the stir space going up so um it it I I don't I think it's a usable space I would just put as a storage um then I believe like the concern is like right here that is like the deck going down to the first floor um that's the deck from like the second to the third floor coming down to the backyard but they cannot get into the unit for sure like um that that that that's they're going to the backyard but because like the wall basically ends right here right here so like that stair stair is like basically when we see from outside like the deck that's where the deck is and there's where going to the backyard um so there's two condenser yes um there's two condensers currently that's located like right here right here that is for the first Flor unit um I I believe we are going to keep the condenser there um just for the uh mulation purpose um and then like the third floor uh condenser is on the roof yep um what other questions do we have can we just go back to the the closet you know which Clos this one yes question how how big is that closet is there a wall somewhere in the middle of that hatched area or is that hatched area all the way over is that on like underneath the stair it's underneath the stair yes okay yeah so it's just very tiny it's like maybe how was that 3 feet that's it um it's it's not really usable because um when you go to deeper you have to basically bend over because like the ster go onto that way so like um right now I I don't think it's we're not using it at all right now currently and I think we're going to keep it close to it just because it's just where the staircase goes up so um I'm not thinking to do anything here um yeah it's just keep it as it is all right and that um there was a question regarding the door that's at the back end of the hatched area on the left this one no no on the angle p no no this one which which door you go to the hatched area where the stairway is this one no the other side other side this one yeah let me show you I'm glad I made photos of this um I actually have a phot you mean right here yes okay hold on let me why do we U is why don't we yes why don't we Mark that alternate plan as exhibit A1 that was just submitted and whatever you have next we'll do is A2 if you just describe it is this the door this store yeah okay so okay [Applause] sorry 30 seconds oh that's okay that's a one story extension right so um sorry M was that a yeah we we marked that that alternate plan that a102 is she a102 is A1 and now this exhibit this Photograph that you just handed out to the board we're going to mark that as A2 so if we can just get a description of that it's a photo of what explain what that photograph sure so this photograph is a door that's right here like right here on the hallway so basically the third floor tenant they will walk down from this hallway and there is a door right here which they could get out so basically for the third floor unit like this door is this this door is like right here on the hallway going up to the third floor and the second floor so it's not related to the first floor at all so like that door is like right here right here that door is like right here yeah I think that like the drawings are not complete and you're asking us to imagine a lot of things that we can't see so it's really hard to evaluate the plan I know you're saying that it has nothing to do with the first floor but without seeing it on the plan it's hard for us to say it has nothing to do with the first floor that's why to um Mr Griffith's point you show everything even if it's not related you can put a note on the drawing to say it's not related but you're asking us to imagine a lot and it's difficult to do got it yep um understood uh we'll definitely could update the plan for sure uh but uh this current door that we're looking at is at the hallway like right here can the second floor use both staircases the second floor could use this staircase from the hallway and yes the second floor could also get out from the staircase correct do we need two staircases in that sense or like um because like here in the back hallway because it needs to go to the third floor as well the third floor only have one way to get out there's no fire escape or deck in the back for them to get out as well in the third floor floor there is a deck from here to get out yes so there's like four ways of getting out right now right for second floor is three ways three ways yeah yes correct so if you come in the front door on the left side just if I'm if I'm reading this correctly you can go directly from the front of the building to the backyard do this little Slanted Door that we're looking at in this picture I'm sorry can you repeat that so from the street okay okay on the door on the left you can go down that hallway and come out this door into the backyard into you um into the backyard you could go from you don't have to go you cannot get from the backyard from there no because is this door opening to like it's like open from here it could only go to the hallway to the second floor it doesn't go to the backyard if you look at the photograph Sor yeah cuz if I'm looking at the this door in this picture right here mhm I see a light on the other end I'm assuming that's the front door that that yes because like the door is open from here right and the picture is ticking from here so basically it's not from the front door you could go out from basically uh the walkway you could just walk out but it's it's it's not going into the building so like that picture is basically taking from here this direction from from this perspective and that door is like right here so the light is basically here it's like it just you just go up to the building I I I I disagree that doesn't make sense um when you walk through the front door that same front door from the this one where do where does the stairs begin the stair begin all the way in the back you have to walk through this hallway so it's just an empty hallway it's an empty hallway correct so you get to the second half area in the back correct so isn't that this door here that you make the turn to go up the stairs if you go through the door right if you go through the door I'm talking about from the front this door looks from this picture the door seems to be on this angled area you keep pointing to the side which isn't possible because the next door is there the next building is there that door is on the angle yes so that door go in into the hallway it doesn't go to but that hallway goes out the front door out the street door you you have to go out from this to go to the front right so why couldn't you walk straight from the street to the backyard from this door but you don't need to go through that door you could just go what you need I'm saying what is possible does this door lead to the backyard no it does not so then what are we looking at here which this we're looking at the same thing yeah I mean like this looks like you like you said you you're standing in the backyard taking a picture of the door that's on the slant okay so if you are going from the front door here right you go from the front door and then you say okay I'm going to get out from here to go to the back yes that's possible okay that's that's that's all we were saying so and so and then so the staircase you're actually making a slight turn go up the stairs yes and underneath the stairs and the Dead Space is where you have this closet yes okay this was way too much work to understand something that should have been put on the drawer I I mean it's it's unnecessary so I I'm questioning other factors that but thank you sure other questions members of the board I'll go just a few okay um so on the left hand s an existing conditions plan right there's a window on the left hand side that's existing uh the window the very top of the very top of the building at the top of the page top of the [Music] page see where you're putting the new door in the in the new plan at the top in the backyard you want to walk oh right here this one yeah you see that where that is okay if you go over to the existing plan that's I believe a demolition plan there's a window there yes there is a window there correct but it's not on the drawings okay and so you then so then for the new plan you put a door in where that window is and you filled in where the door used to be so if you're going to fill in where the door used to be it's helpful for you to show new construction there so we can discern between the Demolition and the new construction you provide a set of demolition plans and a set of new construction plans this makes it easier for everyone to understand what is being proposed got it okay yes okay got it all right and the the hash are on the left that we just went through this one a yeah a journey I completely agree and I just want to be very clear about the pop part of it that's adjacent to the meeting room number four the hatched area on the left this one lower below that is meeting room number four below come down the page okay this one yeah youris are that was mine sorry uh okay that one right there that room to the left of it is a hatched area I just want to be clear that hatched area has a roof over it it's only one story high you're not going to the second floor anywhere from that area you have to walk further down and go up the stair I assume cuz I'm assuming everything but I can see from the photographs and from the site and the pictures that that's only one story high that top part near the meeting room this one that yeah the hatched area to the left doesn't go up to the second floor right there at that location maybe it does further down the page this one does not go to the second floor but this one does I hear you say that and I'm telling you physically it's not possible based on the photographs and based on what I've seen with my own two eyes okay okay that's why it's to go back to the other the other larger point is if the plans need to be drawn completely and accurately and consistently so that we have a better chance of understanding what is being proposed okay um so uh I would like to understand um what we need to do next so we need to update the drawing correct yes I suppose that's a yes um or can I ask question as well M yeah so would it be better if we include second and third floor and including the site entire site with the deck from the from the from the end going to give you a better picture of what we are proposing for the entire building doesn't hurt okay I I'm not the entire okay well Miss Harris why don't you go I was going to say I'm not sure if it's it's required for you to show detailed plans of the second and third floors we just need to know what's happening on the first floor including the deck and the backyard so I would show a site plan with the build this first floor plan on it with all the hatched areas okay staircases and everything sh yeah yeah I think the staircase is going to the upper floors are key to show exactly where where they start how they relate to what else is on the first floor is we elevation help as well elevation of the side wall because we have diffic difficult definitely have different opinion about the Hedge area we we think it's a first only have one floor height but if we measure that that's going to be help help help the decision making right you know we don't need detailed plans of the second and third floors okay got it we just need to know and have the stairs going to a location where that ele part of the building is that tall yeah okay and if you could figure out because well you have it drawn here it's hard to believe that on the left side the hatched area that wedges it's hard to believe that there's a staircase that fits in there that goes to the second floor so if you can show that that would be really helpful and show kind of how it overlaps the first floor yep sounds good thank right I I think in as much as we enjoy your coming here and I'm sure you enjoy coming here as well I think maybe if we have Mr stimel testify just if there are issues related to his yeah we can get everything all addressed and when the next time you come yeah I was going to suggest the same thing Mr chair even though I I know we're going to be coming back with revised plans I think we can get Mr Sim's testimony done um so two two bedroom two bed two bedroom two B is is is good right so like um do we need to do any revision on the bedrooms just the number with the number of bedrooms we just care that you can actually make it code compliant um you know Windows if possible if you're going to invest in a sprinkler system that's fine but that will be a condition of approval um if we do require if you do allow you to proceed that way so I would just think through um if that's something that you're actually going to pursue a full golden sprinkler system as opposed to yes sprinkler system actually like um that was working on for a long time already um but for the um particular um if if it's like like a two bedroom like what we propose right now um so basically like this bedroom like will have like a window on it and then this bedroom there will also be like a door going out to it and there's also a window right here as well but there won't be a door going out there won't be a door going out from there correct the door will be here right okay so two-bedroom is good right it's fine okay thank you okay all right I'm going to call Mr stimel Bill stimmel Mr stimo you testified at the prior hearing correct I don't know if I was or not here okay well where you in then would you raise your right hand do you swear to tell the truth of the matter pending before the board I do state your name and address please William stim STI mm my professional address is P box8 William stimmel STI mmel my professional address is PO Box 280 Rutherford Mr chairman I'm offering Mr stimol both as a professional engineer and professional planner you accept his qualifications had him many times prior testimony thank you um Mr siml um before we talk about the site plan and the variances um would you address the issue regarding the survey that came up at the last meeting potentially incorrect survey and what was done yes since the last meeting I just brought up on the screen the site plan which was submitted for the board's consideration uh this has a revision date or or date rather of September 18th 24 it has not been revised since since the prior hearing uh it shows the outline of the building and the the footprint of the building as shown on the site plan is somewhat irregular there's a a jut in as you travel back from the street Frontage on both sides of the property but they don't match on the left side and the right side uh when looking at at the site plan in comparison to the photos that were included in the board planner review letter uh some of the board members raised the issue that there there may be an inaccuracy or inconsistency with the survey and then the site plan but as I think the board has now realized that projection on the south face of the building extends further on the first floor than it does on the second floor and when you look at that photo in the board planner letter and you look at the aerial photographs on on Google or whatever ever Source you choose it appears to be symmetrical that the jettin on both sides of the building is roughly opposite each other but the survey is in fact correct does show the outline of the building at the ground floor and then the second floor that southern projection Cuts in a little bit sooner but that's a one-story extension that was probably used for some sort of egress at the time so this the survey could have shown a one story then we would they they could have shown that with a dash line or something to that effect but the buildings made with those 45s to be the same correct yeah as you get to the upper floors um the the photograph that was submitted uh I believe it's exhibit A2 uh was taken by me for uh for the sake of the record on September 16th of 2024 so if the board had any addition I'm sorry September 16th or September 16th of 2024 uh if the board had any additional questions about the photo I could try to answer those as well all right um Mr siml you want to um start I guess by discussing the existing conditions of the property then talk about what the applicant is proposing and go into the site plan which in this case is fairly you know um minor given the uh fact that the building occupies the bulk of the property yes the subject property is currently occupied by a three-story structure right now the way the site is approved for use is with a ground floor office and then three residential units split between the second and third floors building occupies the full width of the property where it abuts the orange Road RightWay the only access to the rear yard is through the building as it's presently laid out there is no curb cut no driveway way no possibility really of a driveway because again that building occupies the full width of the lot at the frontage um the applicant is proposing to convert the existing ground floor office space to a two-bedroom apartment it had previously been a a three-bedroom apartment the architectural plans have of course been revised uh there's no changes right now proposed to the footprint of the existing building there's no expansion of the building within that existing footprint there's no increase in height proposed and again no site driveway or parking areas proposed due to limitations of the property itself okay you want to talk about the um the site plan that you prepared and yeah specifically the you know what you're proposing terms of you know improvements to the site in the front and the rear uh yeah I'm going to refer to the paper copy for my own behalf um with the projector some of the existing conditions underlying the drawing are a little bit washed out on the screen but the uh site plan consists of two areas the general information the zoning map the tax map and the zoning table are shown on the left side of the sheet and the existing conditions are grayed out underneath the proposed conditions on the subject property um as far as modification to the site there's really very little proposed at this time uh there were some comments from the board planner about providing a landscape strip and a street tree in front of the building in an earlier version of the review letter and we have agreed to that modification uh the plan shows that the rear yard is to have the existing gravel and overgrowth removed and be top soiled and seated uh the applicant in the interim has spoken to a landscape contractor and the contractor has recommended putting down sod in that area so that would be a minor change to the plan there's no existing trees in the rear yard there's no proposed trees in the rear yard um in terms of the zoning table the site does have a number of existing non-conformities associated with it which are not being impacted such as the lot area uh sorry excuse me the uh Building height 2 and 1 half stories is permitted three is existing and proposed the front yard 25 ft is required 1.32 ft is existing and proposed the sidey yard to one side 6 ft is required zero existing and proposed to the other side yard 10 ft is required .24 ft existing and proposed maximum principal structure width is allowed to be 65% of the lot width which works out to be 29 .6 ft uh 19.5 ft rather uh we're at 29.6 FT existing and proposed so that's a non-conformity and then building coverage where 25% is permitted we're at 60.3% and imp pervious coverage 60 uh 55% is permitted 69.9% is existing and proposed and then also based on the use of the existing building and the calculation for parking contained in the municipal ordinance as well as in the residential site Improvement standards the existing parking requirement is 12.1 uh with the proposed modification it would be uh 7.9 parking spaces so that table would be updated based on the change from a three-bedroom unit on the ground floor to a two-bedroom unit uh so there is an existing non-conformity when it comes to the parking requirement which is being reduced as a result of the proposed development okay um before you go into the variances and planning testimony with respect to the rear yard again the applicants prepared to put s down and create a nice grass area there how is that going to be maintained specifically you know how how do you get equipment back there where is the equipment to be stored I'm talking I assume you're talking about a relatively small lawn mower for limited area is that right small area small lawn mower we were envisioning either one of the old-fashioned real mowers Where you provide the power or an electric mower where you plug it in and it would be stored either underneath the overhang for the second floor deck or possibly in a a small something akin to a yard box or one of those plastic sheds uh in in the rear area okay all right is there anything else you need to talk about regarding the site plan are you ready to now provide planning testimony with regard to the variances that is it as far as the site plan okay so can you provide your analysis of the just identify the the two variances that are required and then provide your uh analysis and professional opinion regarding those variances yes the uh the site is located in the R2 Zone in the township of Mont CLA uh the R2 zone is the two family Zone permitted principal uses in that zone according to section use although you're eliminating that existing non-conforming office aspect of the use on the property uh in terms of the existing development pattern in the area the properties all along the southbound side of Orange Road are located in the R2 Zone in the vicinity of the site and the development pattern is consistent with that zoning the properties on the Northbound side of orange road across the street from us are in the ra the Redevelopment area zone and those in Bloomfield on Bloomfield Field Avenue to the north of the site are in the C1 Central Business Zone and again the development patterns in those areas are generally consistent with the requirements of the Zone there was some discussion at the last meeting as to whether the site would require a D1 variance for a new non-conforming use or a D2 variance for an expansion of an existing non-conforming use it wasn't immediately clear how the site came to be a office on the ground floor with a departments on the second and third floor because the applicant had indicated that that transpired since she bought the property for that reason we felt the best approach would be to make the argument for the D1 variance for the new non-conforming use in the zone um in order to justify that requested variance relief the applicant has to show that the positive and negative criteria have been satisfied uh in this case the positive criteria being the special reasons that the variance relief can be granted for reasons applicable to this subject property the first element of that is the site suitability a demonstration that the site is particularly suited to the proposed development um for reasons which aren't applicable to the adjoining parcels and I I think the key thing here is that you've got this large existing Building compared to the other properties in the neighborhood um it already houses multif family housing it's got that existing non-conforming office use it can accommodate the unit subject to working out some of the finer points of the the architectural plan of course it can accommodate that additional unit without an expansion of the footprint uh the second part of the positive criteria is the special reasons that the project must show it advances the purposes of zoning the first and most commonly cited purpose of zoning is purpose a from the municipal land use law which is to encourage Municipal action to guide the appropriate use or development of all lands in the state in a manner which will promote the public health safety morals and general welfare so in addition to providing a new housing unit we are maintaining and improving upon an existing residential property we're eliminating that non-conforming office use from the zone and eliminating at the same time a second principal use from the subject property the other side of the coin the negative criteria the applicant must demonstrate that the variants can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and will not substantially impair the intent and purpose of the Zone plan and zoning ordinance uh based on my review of the application materials the plans that have been submitted comments from the board planner visit to the site as well I see no substantial detriment to the public good based on the conversion of that ground floor office to an additional apartment unit there's no or very limited changes to the exterior of the building building if the application is ultimately denied that interior space just reverts back to being an office use in the residential neighborhood there's no impact to traffic uh single apartment unit generates a fractional trip to the roadway Network during the busiest times of day there's a reduction of the required parking as compared to the existing office use and then finally the applicant has taken into consideration a lot of the comments from the board and the board planner which were presented at the earlier hearing and through the review letters and revised the plan to address at least some of those comments at this point uh the scope of the project has been reduced to change the ground Flor floor unit from a three-bedroom to a two-bedroom apartment they eliminated the front bedroom because there were concerns about privacy for people living in that bedroom with the unit being at ground level and the windows right behind the sidewalk um the rear exit was adjusted so that it didn't pass through the rear bedroom at that location so those are all significant changes made uh based on input from the board and the board professionals and then the proposed use is not inconsistent with the intent and purpose of the Zone plan and zoning ordinance what you have here is a non-conforming use which although would be non-conforming again if it were to be approved it brings it more in compliance with the requirements of the zone you eliminate that office and make it solely residential use on the property so although non-con coning it is more conforming um and that also addresses the issue with the enhanced quality of proof because of the fact that we're asking for a D1 variance at this location uh the applicant has to address the omission of the proposed use from those permitted in the zone and again this is an existing use on the subject property the existing three family is going to a four family and you're eliminating the office component of that uh that's the D variance associated with the application the C variance is again primarily are existing non-conformities which are not being impacted the building height the front yard setback the side yard setback on one side and then the other side the maximum width of the principal structure and the maximum building coverage uh all existing non-conformities which are not being impacted by the development the issue of parking was raised in the board planner's letter I went through the calculation on the plan uh it's 12.1 space is the existing requirement 7.9 would be the proposed requirement based on a two-bedroom unit on the ground floor so although that parking deficiency is being maintained the extent of the non-conformity is being reduced um and the the C variances to the extent that they're applicable would come under the board's consideration of the use whether the use in this location in this building is appropriate for the zone and the consideration of those C variances would be included with the consideration of the use okay no further questions Mr church do you have any questions yeah uh you you were talking about the uh development of the rear yard uh and uh your discussion with the landscape architect was it would best be ered by putting sod back there is that correct am I correct the the client had spoken to a landscape contractor and the landscape contractor felt the better way to put grass in the yard would be to put down sod rather than top soil and Seed okay my question is this that sod requires about 2 and 1 half three Ines of dirt to catch unless there is that already how see how do you propose to transport dirt back there fair question I am not the landscape contractor but I could get you an answer on that because we uh apparently will be back for another hearing okay the other thing I have is um the parking issue uh there is no place to park for this building to my viewpoint the only place to park is across acoss the street is that that's correct right correct there's no there's no driveway there's no paring there's a deck over there and there's street parking correct yes and has that is that what you're calculating as the parking and is it usable can you use that deck and can you use those spaces over there because they're not part of this application uh the the uh straight just a minute the uh board of education has access to that deck um and I don't know how much public pkin is in there the the site doesn't allow for parking there's only there's zero feet on one side of the building and 24 ft on the other side of the building right the building's right on the front property line so there's no where to park in front or no way to run a driveway alongside the building okay so accommodations have to be made with that deck right the I I believe and Mr tulac will tell me if I'm remembering incorrectly but I believe the client had indicated at the last meeting that there is parking available that that's where she parked when using the office at that location because that was her office okay but that's office use that's an 8 to5 use of a deck if you get turn this into an A Part apartment that's overnight parking correct is there accommodations for overnight parking three of the units on the property are existing and they're they're parking somewhere if they have cars obviously you pay for it there's there's somewhat of a self-regulation with this if you if you go to an apartment complex and you rent an apartment and the apartment manager says there's two spaces available to you that's going to be reflected in the rent you're going to get people that are more likely to have two cars there's many apartments in monair and other municipalities around here where you've got existing apartments that don't have parking save some money on that rent and people either don't have cars or or find someplace they can park um you know it's an existing condition in this building that's being maintained we're making the argument that we're reducing the parking requirement because second and third floor is the same there's less parking demand for the residential on the ground floor than there is for the office with the understanding that nobody at the office probably is going to be parked there from 8:00 at night until 8:00 in the morning roughly speaking um so in the event that the people that move into that unit would need parking they would have to make an arrangement I would imagine that would be with the parking deck across the street but again that would be a second point we could track down for the uh for the next meeting okay thank you Mr corfield uh Mr stim the backyard looks like it was gravel is that your understanding when you were back there yes okay so they they just had like kind of a gravel yard for that does that uh there there was gravel with some sort of a weed barrier fabric which had been put down to minimize the the grael need for maintenance obviously it that only lasts so long so it it needs a clean up gotcha uh we haven't decided at the tree in the front have you at all we would obviously stipulate we'd take something from the improved plant list if the board has a preference we're open to anything you'd suggest thanks uh no that's perfect thank you Miss Harris um I actually have a question of the owner if that's okay how uh how do you manage trash right now for the tenants upstairs got come you can you can sit down um so on the left side of the building if I directly facing it um there's the hallway that go up to the second third floor right the trash can is over there it's in the hallway you keep it in the hallway outside of the hallway on the sidewalk or in so like where you see the window before mm um yes yes so like where you saw the window and the door before the trash can't it's like right next to that but is it outside of the building or inside of the outside of the building and then on days that you have to take the trash out do so that's why I I I was pointing it they could just like take it out through it's the tenant's responsibility to do correct okay and then how will how will the first Flore tenant do that since they don't have access to that hallway um so they have access to the backyard so the backyard they could go through that to go to the front so they'll keep it in the back and and bring it through the apartment to take it out it doesn't need to go through the apartment so like they could leave the trash that's in outside like where you walk through oh where the door is right right right and then like because you could pull that like you don't have to go through anything that's just outside so you could just pull that going up to the front and when it's time to bring it out to the curb the tenant would do that themselves correct through that hallway through the outside hallway yes okay yeah if we can see that on the plan on the site plan that would be helpful yeah that's outside the building yeah yeah thank you Miss Grant um I just had a few um comments about the um the floor plans um so I would um when you were just we were discussing um not showing the stairs I would suggest um a section a section through here um going to the back of the building also I think a elevation of the back just just suggesting and um there I just I just noticed because I was going to um write this section based on the direction but I don't think there's a North Arrow think so and and also if um the stairs are added indicate the direction of the stairs I don't know if there's a basement but um U this the the stairs that is existing here don't have show direction so then if there's more stairs then the the direction you know would be um helpful and then that that's everything Mr Moore thank you I noticed that the neighboring properties have elevated porches so does this office space ever have any since it's at a lower grade do you ever encounter any uh flooding issues or drainage issues and what uh have you taken to consideration since this would be a living space uh to potentially upgrade and or modify your drainage um also just from looking from the backyard as well well it's um the backyard is elevated and then um it kind of drops down a little bit so I would think that water could potentially flow in that direction so um so the building was purchased in May 2016 we went through like a very heavy ring storm in September 2021 I believe and and we have no issue of water whatsoever um from actually yes you could see an elevated like Porsche that's like right next to us however if you look at the other side of the of the other building it's not elevated either so it depends on which building that you're looking at if you're looking at like the side that's going to the to the uh yeah on that side with the the hallway is yes you see that but if you look at the other side the right hand side of that building is not elevated and also like going up to the first floor you have to go through uh one step so it's actually elevated a little bit um so but in my experience like we were there for almost 9 years at this point there's never ever water and um there is a basement but the base um no unit can go through the basement directly it have to go through the outside again so you can't get through the basement through the first unit it have to go through outside where the deck was before and there is a drainage down there I forget French drainage I forgot what was it called French drainage where the sides are there a space basement okay so um so far I never ever experienced any water issue in there neither in the basement no um basement I flooding no is there some pump there's yes some pump yes some pump uh it's working um but I I don't see any u i I never claim any insurance on water anyway so there's no water issue in that building yeah and where does it pump out to the sun pump um that's beyond my knowledge but um yeah I never have any water issue even like sometimes at the first two year when it's really heavy storm I'll go there nothing it does it run out to the side uh or the back where again I'm not engineering that I I don't know yeah but just like from what I can see there's just no water okay thank you Mr s just a quick question for the architect um you're proposing to move the rear door um from the rear elevation you can see a cutout for a doorway that looked like was boarded up are you proposing to open that up or you going to make a move it over to where the window yeah it's replacing the location of the window of the window yeah so what is that boarded up doorway it seems to be back to that shaded area again so we don't know what's at least it looks to be leading to that shaded area which is not um detailed here why not just open that door up since there's already an archway cut out for it because you're have bend your space to go through it excuse me you have to bend your your your body oh the height is yeah the height okay thank you Mr Griffith uh I'm surprised to he there's a basement uh and I don't know how to get to the basement I hear that you could only get to it from the outside I don't don't know how so this picture right here that's where we go to a basement yep let me see there's a stair right there yeah so this is the stair that's the back right going to and then like there is a door I guess like right here so it's you're pointing the figure seven in the planning department memo dat January 7th the white door next not the white door the white door go back to the apartment apartment is on this side where the the the stair going to the deck behind that is another door it's just not show on the picture what page is it on six uh page six correct six by the stair that goes behind the stairs upstairs sort of right but it's in that location yes correct you there's a slightly more zoomed in picture on the next page figure eight and what is this uh door that looks like it's been grayed out painted gray where does that go to that gray door is where with the hashtag that's talking about why don't we open that up it's just like where it go up to the stairs so that's why it's very low barage when you go a little bit into the building to which stair second floor oh and they have another exit that they can go out of but this one is this one is seal off yes currently is seal off they can't um the second floor cannot realistically access here because it's blocked by the stairs it's interesting space Oh well yeah I I learned my lesson I'm going to run through a number of things quickly okay okay um I think it would behoove you to have a site plan that shows what the Finish intention is the sod if there's more soil being brought in for the sod where isn't the extent of it and showing a pathway uh since we do understand that there is a door here from the backyard that leads to the front yard it would be good to show that pathway cleared um as opposed to obstructed uh the um e egress windows in the two bedrooms that you have the ESS Windows have a requirement that the Sill's not very high I forget if it's 24 in or 30 in but it's a lot higher than the windows I see facing the street so you should be aware and understand that that's probably going to require those windows to be enlarged and I don't know if there'll be other people that care about the change in the out elevation of the building I do think that would be an impact in the design I I ask you to check with your architect on that thetion is to not do inra windows the intention is to sprinkler the building Mr Griffith was talking about the existing windows on the front of the building oh I'm sorry yes the ones facing the street those two I don't know about the other ones they may require it as well but that's not as important as one facing the street I think that that that will be a public concern what it looks like I I think you'll want to care about what it looks like in cost um as I said before the existing window and then your existing condition plan should be shown infill of a doorway that you're that you that that you're tearing out and infilling with the temp with new construction should be shown so we can understand the scope of the work being proposed both existing conditions and Demolition and new construction uh the back deck and stairs should be shown the compressors that are sitting in this in the back duck and stair should be shown in the existing and in the new construction uh cuz they're not going to go away and uh you'll want to place them so that they're not in the way um it's an important thing the closets underneath the stairs need to be shown there are traditional ways of showing stairs with with closets underneath them um architectural graphic standards can show a lot of different ways of doing it generally the stair is cut off after it goes up about 3 ft with a slash line and a break in it and then you show the closet underneath with the door uh I'm just looking to be able to see the plans and understand what you have and what you are proposing um that's it thank you um can I ask a quick question for the back door right what if we don't remove that door and we just make the window bigger on that one I don't understand which back um the back the door that's leading to the backyard so we would just have the existing door we're just going to make that window a little bit bigger you're saying you're going to put a window there I'm sorry you're going to put a window there instead of the door I mean there is a window currently right but you're you're moving the door to where what if I don't move the door well remember we talked about not having your hallway go through the bedroom not having your exterior access go through your bedroom okay that's why it was going to the window okay I'd also recommend Lighting in that area and maybe an air um a designated spot where you'll put trash that's enclosed trash and enclosure potentially something small just because it seems pretty open and if if residents are going to potentially live here they may be utilizing that space more than often wh which space backyard the back but the garbage can is on the other side it's not on the backyard okay well um I mean that's construction from like long time ago we should remember this is what we see so in terms of the backyard I would say there should possibly be some lighting back there since uh more people would inhabit this would live in the space and wherever you do put your uh the the garbage I mean from what from what I heard it didn't make the most uh it wasn't didn't make the most sense in terms of like the efficiency of yeah how to enclose it right so um we have you know raccoons we have all types of things right and we don't necessarily uh want enclose what enclose the backyard enclos no so so in some of our um plans when applicants come in front of us right will um and when they where they have garbage and there'll there'll be multifamilies uh units will let them know that that they should put their trash in an enclosed area so I am suggesting you look into that and see what may work best with your plan cuz it's sounded like you know the trash is on and on the outside of the unit but in the stairwell um it's not on the stairwell it's like it doesn't go to a St I'm just describing it as it's next to the outside building where the hallway so but it's still inside in the hallway no it's not it's outside if you could if you could show a site where they just want to see want to see it on the site plan yeah yeah yeah that's fine I would still enclose that though okay if it's th enclosed then like basically they cannot walk from the backyard to the front Okay we're closing that out Mr stimel is going to revise the plans to show where the trash and containers are located and then we'll go from there as to what we want done with that or if that's an acceptable area but at this point point I don't think any of us fully understand what is happening with the trash and how it's getting to the street and if it's shown on the site plan that will facilitate the discussion we may say move it but I think the starting point is to show where it is and understand that in relationship to the changes you're making to the architectural plans Miss Grant the um um when I suggested um of the back with the existing prop the existing propos I would do all three floors and also just indicate where the retaining wall is okay Mr stimo I'm going to actually ask you questions first as a comment um you know you um I I'm not going to do a condition but I would recommend that you explore a slow growing drought tolerant grass to be planted in the backyards to to minimize the number of times the lawn has to be cut and its survivability back there um it's uh you know just I think that'd be better I I don't know um you know you're you're you know I think since we're going to revise the plan to should you know obviously replace the seating with the with the sod um I think you know you should leave the note about removing the gravel and I would just put top so is necessary I don't know what's under the gravel there may be enough top soil there for the sod it may not be but just you just put top soil as necessary um on the planning um the applicant testified last time that she had converted the second floor from Office Space to an apartment and I asked well how did that happen without a variance and Mr tulac indicated he was puzzled by that too I'm assuming since you didn't say anything you did not look into that I thought there had been conversations not from me with the municipality as to how that happened I have no firsthand knowledge I'm assuming it was an oversight um I Mr TR I can all I can say Mr chair I did speak with Richard Shuan today about that issue because you and I both had the same curiosity I guess and uh he wasn't sure um he was going to go back and look I don't know if he spoke to you so um I believe that happened in 2018 and from what he told me it was a determination made with the planning department to exempt that from a variance review because it was a existing non-conforming mixed use building that was going to remain a mixed use building and it was reducing the level of non-conformity that's all I know was then the same logic would apply to this application as well it's doing the exact same thing I don't know of a theory under the municipal use law that that works either for the third unit or the fourth unit um save a lot of applicants a lot of effort but I um uh I don't know I'm not sure what I want to do with that I have a problem with our sanctioning something that was done improperly or maybe we should formally sanction something that was done improperly I uh I don't really knowing the fun we're having with the first floor I don't really want to go into the second floor and um do that um but I I don't know and I'll um I don't know if Mr Sullivan has any thoughts I agree about not going in the second floor I mean the municipalities acted on this I mean there's a stopple issues and everything else so I would say stay away from it yeah I mean permits were applied for maybe they shouldn't have been issued or signed off on but I mean certainly the applicant didn't do anything wrong no I I'm I understand I I wasn't sure who you were talking about sanctioning so not not the applicant I I went through every single like and then they're like okay do it and then I get my co and everything um if if someone tell me not to do it then I wouldn't have I I understand I'm just puzzled by why how it was determined that you didn't need to come here is um one thing if you went from one commercial use to another commercial use that's one thing I applied that in 2022 if they say the Vari was like change or the regulation change in 2018 that's prior to my time too this has been in R2 zone for a very long time and we've had other applications on the other units on the Block and okay um any other questions from members of the board okay um Mr chairman when do you think you'll be back I I would ask if the board would carry this to your second meeting in February I think that would give us enough time to get plan prepare that's the 19th M yes you'll cons to an extension of time for the board act until that day yes we can sign okay so this matter is being carried until our February 19th meeting there will be no further notice of the application so if you're hiding behind the chairs and are interested in the application um come here on February 19th for hopefully the final episode in the trilogy yes thank you thank you the next application is at a bdp 6-10 eie LLC this a property located at 6-10 Eerie Street it's an application for the board of adjustment for amended site plan approval um amend the plan we approved in April of 2024 to construct a sun sunken stone patio and masonry wall with a planner with additional drainage improvements of properties designated as block 3307 lot 7 on the Township tax maps and is located in the C2 General business and light manufacturing Zone our taxes in order and is taxes paid in the notice in order yes okay Mr tulac proceed good evening again Alan tulac appearing on behalf of bdp 6-10 Eerie LLC um this involves the property near the Walnut Street train station where the Richie CI restaurant used to be and thankfully there's a new restaurant that's finally opened at that location um the board will recall or most of the uh current members of the board uh were uh on the board uh last year when this app we presented application for site plan approval uh for this property which involved a variety of exterior improvements and uh Renovations and also uh you'll recall a at that time the board granted a use variance to permit um a portion of one of the buildings to be occupied by Sharon Miller's Academy for the Performing Arts um that approval was memorialized about 9 months ago in April um we're here because there are some very minor uh renovate uh changes to the approved site plan which affect a patio area which we'll discuss um there are some drainage improvements I believe that go along with that but it's a very limited uh area uh that we're focusing on um there are no variances that are triggered by uh what's being proposed um I would finally note that the application was reviewed by the uh U historic preservation Commission in November and the commission uh determined that the patio that's being proposed was a visual improvement from what was originally proposed so having said that I have um Nate Burns as my witness to testify regarding the uh plan revisions we could have him SW Mr Burns did you raise your right hand do you swear to tell the truth in the matter pending before the board I do state your name and address sure Nate Burns for the purposes of application my address is 7 Oak Place Montclair Montclair okay uh Nate can you give the board uh some background regarding your education and professional qualifications sure briefly I'm uh landscape architect uh not registered or licensed in New Jersey but in 12 other states um I'm currently the senior vice president of development for bdp Holdings um prior to uh my position at bdp Holdings um I was a associate and project manager at Langan engineering where I worked for 20 years um um and did all of bdp all of bdp's work U with Langan um I have a background in undergraduate degree in landscape architecture and a master's degree in planning okay all right and will you um the original site plan that was approved last year was prepared by langin yes it it was prepared under under my advisement okay you were with Langan at the time yes okay and the revised plans that are before the board this evening were were prepared by Langan as well correct yes they were prepared by Langan and were you involved in the preparation or it done was that done under your supervision or your direction it was done at my direction um as being blang is client in this instance okay all right so are you able then to review the proposed revisions to the plan that we're seeking the board's approval for this evening can you hear how's that okay um if you recall the original plan um proposed excuse me what page is that this is a CG 101 the original plan proposed restriping to the parking lot um and some limited changes along the facades of you know what is now Sharon Miller dance studio um and the the gym um in this north northern corner here of the building um in the existing condition because the building was kind of an agglomeration of additions and and such um there was kind of some oddness was the best way to describe it where the floor elevations were a little bit different um and there was also some drainage issues because the site generally drains towards that corner um under the pre the plan that this board previously approved the area now shown as a sunken patio was just approved to be a um concrete a new concrete pad to level out the ground with steps um either up or down into the adjacent tenants um because of the drainage issues and the desire to make those um access points fully Ada accessible um we decided to take the whole area out um rework the drainage and um create Ada accessible walkways down into those couple of tenants so in doing so we're dropping the whole patio area um to form a level sunken patio adding in a sloped walkway along the the facade of fit Loft and a sloped walkway um along the face of what will now be Sharon Miller um both of those walkways are under 5% % so we're not required to have railings we didn't want the visual um impacts of a railing um we're not removing any parking um we have a low brick wall um that will match our facade ultimately um it'll be a a painted brick um that will match the color of the facade um and then in addition to that there was the roof leaders of the entire or the majority of the building um either exited out here onto um Erie or went under the building out to Tony's Brook um and we looked at routing those um the the drainage where those roof leaders went into on Erie um as part of our previous approval uh we um videoed all the storm source and the drainage that previously went out here to Erie um was clogged and it was indetermined to where it was where it was actually um you know going to so we we worked with um Langan and worked with the township engineer to reroute the storm drainage um maintaining a limited amount of drainage under the building but really rerouting the rest of the drainage out to this existing um storm Inlet in eie Street which goes down Erie to label and then discharges into tonyb so the only revisions are what you just described was the drainage and then the patio is in the same location but it's now just being sunken exactly exactly and then there's going to be a a painted brick wall surrounding the the patio or at least on the two sides yes yes a painted brick wall and ultimately this corner here is the location of uh blue um coffee our new tenant who's moved in there and they'll be using some of this patio area here is just you know Outdoor Cafe seating for people who come and get coffee and are you know waiting to go to the gym or whatever else they may be doing and what's the uh the propos the height of the proposed wall that will close the sunking on on the outside the proposed wall is I have to double check I don't want to tell you the wrong thing the architecture thank you the top go to the uh the next tab I got you if you go to the architectural drawings a 101 you can see the height of the proposed wall and I can't read it on that screen it looks like 2et 3 in yeah it's yes it's 2 feet 3 in on the front um and then I'm look at my my computer so I can read that and then approximately 42 in on the back side okay there any um increase in impervious coverage no another thing from this okay are there any variances to your knowledge that are Tri Ed by these plan revisions no okay and except for the what you just discussed there's no other changes to the site plan that was approved by this board last year nope okay um one final question um there was a recommendation from the historic preservation commission about perhaps adding landscaping around the the planner wall did you take a look look at that and can you just respond to that it's again it's a suggestion or recommendation we we did evaluate the ability to add landscaping around the planter wall um but due to the proximity of the uh adjacent parking we're unable to fit Landscaping between the wall and the parking spaces and really it's our it's our opinion in this case that cars will be parked in those parking spaces so you won't really see the wall anyway because of the cars that are parked there and it'll be a general Improvement as it is um you know we are providing some additional Landscaping along the building I think as this this board previously required okay no no further questions Mr chair Mr cawfield the cafeteria or the restaurant that you have there um they have tables or things on the sidewalk that's in there if you put this new patio in with these new tables would they get rid of those tables on that sidewalk the coffee shop yeah yeah there will be no tables on that sidewalk you know what I'm saying that that curb I'm saying is that what you're loing that's the intent uh if I wanted if I was in wheelchair today could I is there a curve to get into that right now or is it just all the same level now no it's not currently accessible today okay cuz there to if to get into what was previously the the fit Loft entry there's a there's a lip and because of the drainage issues that were there um the door on the coffee shop was actually built up at the threshold so someone had come and you know built a little hump at the threshold and if you look at the door it's actually a little bit short and we're removing all that to make it fully accessible okay um uh the reason why you're sinking that patio area is it just just is the the reason why yeah sure because the the elevation of the building there is actually low lower okay yeah um just I see that you have drainage or catch Basin at the corner of that new that new patio that you're pres there's there's nothing there's no catch Basin orever all in that that patio area or would all drain out because it looks like there's a wall in that like we're proposing a small a small Inlet and let me get back to that if you look at okay four page there's an existing Inlet there in the corner there's a number of existing inlets there um some of many of which were removing um but there's an existing Inlet there in the in the very corner of the building that's going to remain we're going to we're going to re reset the top of it and clean it up so it looks much nicer and I it looks like all the leaders are piped out like through a pipe kind of out to the okay yeah okay thank you yep absolutely Miss Harris um the section that you have on your architectural plan um here um the wall is actually labeled as a planter and I'm wondering if there's any way to put plants on along that wall just because in that section looks like you know I can open my door out of my car and fall over into your patio um is there the the the wall is actually um 2T what I say 2T 3 in high right yeah um and the width of it is is 1' 4 in so there's not room within the body of the wall to fit a space that's meaningful enough to grow plant material could you put a railing along that wall adjacent to the parking we're not required by code to do so um our goal is to not to provide as as limited visual impact um to you know for people coming in so that they can see the retail establishments that are beyond the wall because if we put if the the bottom of the the bottom the the wall is 42 in high from the patio elevation from from the patio elevation which is also the elevation of the um doors into those retail establishments so the first you know 3 and 1/2 ft of those retail establishments is is obstructed by the wall further obstructed by the adjacent cars um and we just would like to avoid doing anything that you know further obstructs them okay thank you m Grant um that the inlet that you said you were going to reset is it shown on here yeah it says it's on believe it's sheet four of the PDF no I'm sorry it's sheet three of the PDF and it's uh it's listed as um 2x two Inlet to remain this is um sheet cs101 okay that was my only question thank you yep Mr Moore so mine is more so like a of a comment but um I referring back to the Monclair historic preservation commission their recommendation number three Mr Moore I can't hear you which oh you can't okay that our television audience sure sure so sure is very large tonight you can't hear us hear you either more significantly the tape can here my comment is pretty much um with the monair historic preservation commission's uh third recommendation um that the Landscaping be added to maintain well the Commissioners recommended that Landscaping be added and maintained around the planter wall to soften the look of the larger paved area so and I know that's what um my colleague mentioned as well so yeah sure not you're already addressed that yeah I just we we can't put anything outside of the wall without losing parking and right and on top then possibly obstruct looking into the re the the exactly ril obstruct and you know I'd also like to note that the the area we're proposing as the sunken patio and wall is interior so it's contained fully within what was previously just proposed as a concrete pad what do you propose what could you propose I mean to I I'm not sure I understand your question so to give it a softer look so it's not so much of a uh you know a large paved area um what could you potentially look to propose or have done as opposed to um not putting planter around in that area I mean there wasn't Planters previously proposed on the approved plans and we feel that putting in a you know nice brick wall and outdoor seating softens the look of a larger paved area um whereas alternatively we could have just left it as an open concrete slab as previously approved um we we would like to put Planters in there but we don't have the room without losing parking which we already have have um relief from the required parking so we're already at a a a negative on parking but there will be tables out there mhm that's the intent is that there will have Cafe tables out there for people to or visiting the coffee shop maybe they'll have flowers on those but that's a that's not a part of this conversation but you know just it's a nice area you know it's nice to inviting restaurant yeah well also too I just want to on the plan at showing there's plans Along on that wall on on the architectural plan and and yeah that that's that's not correct that was a that's not correct yeah that was an error of the architect Mr Griffin um that whole parking lot slopes back to the corner where this work is being done is that right the water drains back towards this corner is that right not the whole parking lot a por a portion of it a good deal of it yeah there's a there's a a ridge line that kind of runs you know it cuts off this corner um for so close enough yeah close enough so I saw on one of the drawings one of the Civil drawings a large drain there at the corner of your thing that's the existing drain to remain at the corner of the proposed ptio yeah no that's a new drain we're putting in to catch that drainage from the parking outside in the park outside yeah exactly and from that drain coming up to your ramps that go down that drains lower than where the top of your ramps are I assume no that then where the top yes that drain is I had to think about what you're saying that drain is lower than where the top of our ramps are okay and so that'll catch everything that's outside and then we're um you know cleaning out and you know having re read so in the lower sunken patio area mhm you have a drain yes you have an overflow drain it's not a trick question so on a normal roof it's by code that you have to have a drain and then you have to have an overflow drain the Overflow drain is there in case the primary drain gets clogged or goes down the Overflow drain and I only ask this and it's probably not relevant uh I only but I think it' be good to think about yeah know it's you have doorways that seem to open onto this lower area so if that if the you have one drain there and it goes clogged they're going the water is going to collect here and go inside the building I'd be um i' concerned about it though it's not my problem and uh your doorways there you'll probably want to have them up a little bit but just because of this I mean you've got you've created a bathub in the corner here and I appre appreciate uh what you're doing and I appreciate the intent it's good um just talking about some ideas that may help yeah we'll we'll certainly look at it I mean it's been that's one of the one of the triggers for this project is drainage and flooding issues that we've had with those tenants so your architectural drawing a101 it [Applause] has um a plan which is 01 patio wall elevation 02 and a planter detail 03 so ask your architect to key the plan and the section appropriately the elevation is not key and the section is identified as 01 when the section is actually 03 and it's not a section he drew an elevation and he called it a planner he didn't draw a planner I understand and agree with your point that the walls not big enough to sponsor a meaningful planter I don't that's okay by me I'm not but if you're going to show a planter and call it a planner then draw a planner or not and if you're going to show a section draw a section these drawings are not uh coordinated in a reasonable consistent way so it'd be appreciated if they were okay okay thank you let me follow up on that cuz I guess you know as Mr Griffith just pointed out it's called the planner um that nor plans the architectural plans show plants uh I understand I'm going to give two thoughts one um you know I I think even you know it's probably not wide enough to support shrubs but it's certainly wide enough to support annuals in the spring summer and fall um or alternatively you could make it wider it's you know this is not a decreed 1 4 in wide and make it wider um I agree with your comments as to the historic preservation commission's recommendation but uh not putting plants around the side of it you'll clearly lose a parking space and or people are going to be walking in the dirt where they're planning and pushing their car doors into it it's not a survivable situation so and I don't want to eliminate a parking space that would provide enough room to accommodate that but I'm um I guess you know making it 2T wide is not going to imp impct this size of the patio in any meaningful way you know why not do that or why can't you have a planner that would at least have annuals in it during the growing season I mean we we need to evaluate that you know it currently the wall is shown at a width that supports this wall being constructed as a concrete masonry unit core if we're going to construct something that's wide enough to support vegetation in it it's my professional experience that you would need something at least 12 to 18 in wide to have enough soil volume that you're not drying out consistently so pretty quickly we're at a wall that I think is probably much larger than than 2 ft um you know I would think it's probably closer to 2 and 1/2 or 3 ft and we're starting to impact the area that we were hoping to use as Outdoor Cafe space and again you know we're trying not to put anything vertical that would further obscure the views of the retail establishments behind there and I you know I understand that and I'm not saying do it wide enough for shrubs that might do that but having you know you know even if you did a trailing Vine um you know I mean I have window boxes that are on the sunny side of the house that are not even a foot wide and plants growing it from Spring through the first killing Frost you know and they're only like 6 in deep so I'm not not sure why even with this width it couldn't support some plantings that would give a little relief and I think make it more attractive okay um and my my other question is I we've gone over there are currently two leaders that go down one that's at the corner where the entrance to the coffee shop is and one at looks like it's at the edge of where um The Patio area is going to be along the east side of the building are is this good what do those connect to now and is are your drainage improvements going to change how they connect and you know I'm concerned it's other board you know make sure drainage goes away from the patio which is obviously your concerned as well but just want to understand how what happens now and what's going to happen with those two leaders currently those leaders go down and connect to a pipe that runs um parallel to the facade out of the building I'm trying to see how it's marked on the survey how long it is it's a 12 yeah well along that um Southern facing facade of the building it's a 12-in clay pipe and it actually goes under the building and and discharges to Tony's Brook we're maintaining um one of the leaders the leader in the corner of the building um with that current drainage as well as the area drain in the patio with that current drainage um but one of the things that we've seen is during large rain events that we're getting um water that the 12-in pipe is just no longer able to hand or isn't able to handle the amount of rain that seems to be coming through there so we're rerouting that roof leader to the existing I believe it's a 54in pipe yeah 54in reinforced concrete pipe that's in eie Street um and we did look at the implication and that was provided with the implications of that water on that pipe um and that was provided with our um with our submission and we talked to the township engineer about it and the township engineer's opinion on it was that since um there seemed to be um um a room within that 54in pipe to the additional um water that we were rerouting and that it was kind of a very small amount comparatively speaking and that it would ultimately end up in the same drainage pretty quickly that being Tony's Brook that it was it was kind of a wash in terms of you know the additional um water that we're adding any other questions for members of the board any members of the audience who have questions are you re repaving any uh resloping we're we're repaving the entire parking lot and there's going to be some limited grading um and regrading is probably not the not the proper word um we we unable to really change the elevations of the parking lot by a lot because we need to get back into the you know for lack of a better term the wonky elevations of the existing buildings that are up and down um so we're going to do limited uh we're going to repave the or re resurface the entire lot and they'll be limited uh you know re re raing with that to take out bird baths and areas where water sits but but we're not really Pro proposing a wholesale re re trading of flot but You' um taken into consideration I guess like a drainage study with so that there's good amount of runoff and no pooling or you know with this site kind of having drainage issues have you this is really the only drainage issue associated with the site the majority of the site either goes to existing um inlets on site or at surface drains um to Tony's Brook Tony's Brook forms the western boundary on our neighbor's property okay all right so it'll be a very heavily used used area Sheron M Miller's uh dance studio right so a lot of folks are going to be walking over there so you want to make sure that it's safe and you know for folks of all ages absolutely thank we have nothing further Mr chair and I I I don't have any concluding comments and submit to the board okay we start discussion Mr Church yeah having uh worked on this project before when uh the dance studio was proposed it's uh it's a nice area to have uh activity in and I think that the the uh the the use of the property to drop the patio and it makes it more attractive uh for use by the coffee shop and uh generally speaking uh I believe that the need for Planters along the wall uh it's although nice I don't think it's that necessary I think a a starer appearance could be enough to improve uh or or to support that uh area that you dropping so I'd be in favor of the application uh minus the need for um Planters all on the top of the wall Mr call field um I'm in favor um I I just slight concerns is like we're bringing more people to this location it is a parking lot and have fears about that but I'm in favor thank you um I'm uh in favor of the this amendment um I disagree with Mr church I think it would be nice to have something to soften there's so much gray and concrete and asphalt um and everything here I think it would make a nicer environment for the coffee shop um uh customers but um generally I'm in favor of the second pum this grant I'm in I'm in favor of the project Mr Moore I'm also in favor of the application uh in addition to having some planters uh in that area to soften it Mr Simon I'm in favor Mr Griffith um I'm in favor okay um I'm in favor I I mean I think this is not significantly changing our prior site plan approval I you know I came in here saying well okay it's not necessary to do the recommendation of the historic preservation Commission because they're proposing planners with showing things growing in the planners and I I you know understand the concern of the historic preservation commission I also understand our concern of not wanting to eliminate parking spaces but um I just think and you know the the two wider stretches of the wall not the stretch that's parallel to the south facing part of the facade that's uh adjacent to the ramp going down that facade um I just think it would be better to have you know seasonal plannings in in those and I think that can be accommodated either with the existing width or um uh with making it somewhat wider if they want to have greater dirt area to somewhat reduce the watering requirements but um that's one area we're in disagreement but someone needs to make a motion with or without that we should also condition it that they remain subject to the conditions of our approval for the Sharon Miller dance studio make a motion to approve it based on the conditions of the Sherman Williams dance studio as well as as um Planters uh as recommended by the mon Clair historic preservation commission hold on you mean seasonal plan things that talked about by the chairman yes yes is there a second second okay any discussion might call the rooll hold on so they have to put the plantings I'm saying or some kind of plantings on top of this wall versus some other alternative they might want to do on the tables to s that I was I was going to ask that question but I was going to wait until after don't wait until after the motion I guess I guess my my question would be what if we were to on the lower level put in like some larger um like on the level where the cafe chairs are put in some larger like um terracotta Planters or something like that where we could have you would be able to see the vegetation above the wall because it's a pretty a pretty low wall and it would soften it but then that would also bring that down to the level of the people who were you know sitting within there you wouldn't you wouldn't be concerned about obstructing the view to the your tenants well if the if the Planters are at the lower I'm saying on the lower level um so if the Planters are at the lower level you would see the veget above um what height vegetation are you thinking it would you know I would you know if we're we would probably do ornamental grasses or something like that but low enough that you could see the green above and we could stipulate that you know the seasonal vegetation you know must be high enough or at least a portion of it to be seen you know above above the wall but you know it's a it's a 42in wall on the back side I would think to to get the volume we would put in probably a 36 in high planter so almost anything at that point almost anything you put in is going to be at least 8 in tall if you would see it from the outside Mr Griffith um yeah I like the idea of a tall grass and that I suggest that a planter on the lower level adjacent to where the parked cars are might provide some separation of the people of the patio and the cars and the park car sent and you can still leave the corner open so that you get the visibility that you want to get I think that may be um at least as good uh as a as an approach I notice in the set of drawings uh Lang in nice big set of drawings uh L L Series 01 501 502 sight lighting sight planter we're not looking at that right those were the previously approved drawings okay all right thank you I didn't I I just saw him and ignored him I just want to make sure I was doing the right thing no I had the same question why why are we getting a giant set of plans for a little tiny project and I realized they just sent the prior plans I mean I don't have a problem with giving them the choice of doing that so you want to modify your motion to sure I make a motion to approve um the application yes I make a motion to approve the application um based on the uh planters that were mentioned um in the retail area patio portion I would rephrase it just so that they offer some some type of option what was option to put some sort of vegetation either on the wall or on their patio if it's on the patio has to be higher than the P than the wall okay make a motion to approve the application uh with uh type of vegetation that's above the uh wall um to soften the area and and subject to the conditions that were improve opposed as part of the prior approval that are not inconsistent here with correct okay second all in favor say I I any opposed thank you motion to adjourn second all in favor say I I any oppos any extensions see you all in first week in February