I hereby call to the order the reorganization meeting of the moris plain board ofjust on January 22nd 2024 all please rise for the Pledge of [Music] Allegiance Al flag United States America and to the rep for stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all hereby announce this meeting is being held in accordance to chapter 231 of the open public meetings act proper notice of meeting dates has been given to the moris newsby and Morris County daily record and posted on the buet board in the B Hall this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant so what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and they form appropriate through judicial hearing must be maintained at all times Karen roal Please Mr Baza here Mrs fortez here Mr Ethan Mr here Mr here Mr weer pres Mr SCH here Mr R the next order of business is election of officers for calendar year 20124 the secretary has the floor okay may I have a nomination for chairman please like your nominate Schultz okay any additional nom there be no more Nom further nominations I declare the nominations closed and ask for a roll call on the nomination of Mr David SCH as okay Mr Baza yes Mrs Cortez yes Mr yes Mr M yes Mr Webster yes Mr [Music] schain Mr R yes Mr C yes okay next may I have a nomination for vice chair yes I would like to nominate Doug mccab for vice chair are there any additional [Music] nominations nominations I declare the nominations closed and for a roll on nomination of Mr dou Vice chair okay Paul Mr Baza yes Mrs Cortez yes Mr car yes Mr MCC obain Mr Webster yes Mr Schulz yes Mr R yes Mrs yes and I would like to congratulate both of you on thank you and I'll have a few words in in a few moments after we get through a reorganization um next we need approval of the board's legal represent ation for 2024 can I please have a motion to approve Michael Sullivan Esquire from The Firm of stickle kig Sullivan and drill as councel for the board so move is there second second voice vot's good yeah Voice vote all in favor I any Nays extensions motion passes next we need approval of the board secretary for 2024 and I have a motion to approve Taren coffee as secretary to the board motion second second all in favor n extensions okay I thank Karen Michael our professionals and all members of the board for their continued service to the burrow next on the agenda is a resolution to set dates for the regular meetings of the board of adjustment for 2024 Board of adjustment resolution 241 is offered for the board's review and approval there any questions on the resolution there are none there be a motion to approve motion Mr second second Karen W please okay Mr B yes Mrs pz yes Mr eth I'm sorry Mr cor yes Mr M yes Mr Webster yes Mr SCH yes Mr risos C yes all right special announcements of the chairman uh once again I am chair and I greatly appreciate board members confidence in me and um it's my honor to serve this role a special thanks to Mike Bosa for his longtime role as Vice chair and chair over the past years um and uh he and I spoke about um building de right getting a deeper bench and that I think that's a great idea um I don't think I should be chair forever I don't want to be chair for and uh um much as I uh enjoy it it is time to build bench and we thank Mr C for stepping up um and beginning that I was going to welcome councilwoman Kathy Kelly but I don't see her here um I will say that she is this year's chair of the bur's ordinance and Public Utilities committee and as such is the governing bodies liaz onto this board uh she and I will talk frequently during the year to make sure she's informed of board activities the mayor sends his regards he was going in but is unable to but he did want me to extend his greetings as we begin the year I'd like to provide member updates the following appointments were made by mayor Jason cor and announced at the bureau's reorganization Mee reappointment of Mike Bosa for a four-year term reappointment of Mark car for a four-year term and reappointment of marchad as alternate two for two-year term congrat congratulations to all the uh reappointments thank you I would like to acknowledge all the members who continue to serve on this board noting the year that their um service on the board began Mike Baza 2007 Bob Webster 2012 Mark car 2013 shaji epen 2015 Doug McCabe 2015 Lisa Cortez 2018 Dan risos 2020 and Bart chincha 2023 that is about almost 90 years total of volunteer service that you see upon the stage so pretty remarkable on the lack of turnover thank you for all your years of service to the borrow and its residents as to timing tonight we have two applications on this evening's agenda we normally plan on no new testimony after 10:30 but this evening I hope to get to a vote on both even if we go a little bit past our normal deadline we will take a short recess between the two applications finally I would like to note that this is probably Leon Hall's last meeting with us as members of this board know Leon has announced his retiring he has graciously agreed to see our open applications through completion and then Le I believe you're out of here fishing calls is that fair to say uh not exactly but something like that um i i k him a bit but I want to recognize his 20 plus years of appointed service and note that he's been working with the bur longer than that bit behind the scenes back in the day when Carl denler was the bur engineer um Leon Your Position will be filled but there is no repl B so um we applaud and thank you thank you very [Applause] much uh the next item is on our agenda is approval of the meeting minutes our last meeting there any corrections or additions to the meeting minutes I believe there's at least one correction of the meeting minutes December 18th 2023 regular meeting Mr chairman yes I have one um I'm not sure what page it is they're not uh legible 1 that's I'm looking uh 179 there's a break it says break from 8:23 p.m. to 900 p.m. I don't believe we took um a break that long I believe it was probably 8:53 to 900 p.m. okay any other cors thank you there no other questions is there a motion to approve as amended motion second thanks all right voice quote all in favor I N abstain okay extensions I heard Mr Webster and Mr risos abstain okay all right this part of the meeting is to your comments for members of the public on matters other than those items on tonight's agenda are there any members of the public who wish to make comments all right I'll close seeing that I'll close um that part of the meeting and uh belatedly I should have done this under special announcements I see Jack Carr and Frank dutzler former members of this board and uh good to see it um correspondents and bills do we have any yes I have purchase order number 2024 56 to SLE con Sullivan 571 pton Avenue Cedar Grove New Jersey Professional Services from 6123 to 73123 in the amount of $825 purchase order number 202 457 to stickle cing and Sullivan 571 pton Avenue New cedaro New Jersey 07009 for Professional Services from 12123 to 123123 in the amount of $288 75 purchase order number 202 458 to Anderson and denler 383 Bridge Avenue East T New Jersey 07936 for a professional services for the month of December 2023 in the amount of 4628 does your reading of the bills constitute a motion to pay yes it does Mr second second Mr vaza all in favor I any n extensions right the bills are approved the first application on tonight's agenda is application b423 Scott Fletcher 10 kazak Drive block 82.0180 the matter has been carried to this evening's meeting no need for additional notice before we go any further our ask Bo attorney Sullivan is SAR and the board's Professionals for both applications including Mr MZ would all three of you raise your right hand so you swear to tell the truth of the matter pending before the board I do I do I see Miss Stone Doty is returned as attorney for the applicant please reintroduce yourself to the record and then the four will be yours for short recap or for Testimony straight away yes good evening Mr chair MERS of the board attorney Rosemary stone dowy with the law firm of jab bound award G here tonight on behalf of the applicant Scott Fletcher regarding the property ATT 10 C Cy drive also known as block 8201 lot 7 to recap where we were at the last meeting and to give the board just a little bit of a road map of the plan presentation this evening at the end of the last meeting um the board and the board's professionals gave some assignments to my clients professionals to get answers regarding on the architecturals how the calculation was done regarding the height and the attic space to make sure it did meet the Burrow's definition of half a story We Believe from reading the board planner's memo that she concurs that it does meet the half story definition so therefore I'm not planning on recalling the architect uh Mr chairman but I did have him come anyways just in case an architectural related question comes up also since the last meeting Mr Miola who is my client's engineer and also will be testifying in dual capacity as a planner had to make some revisions to the soil disturbance application component that was submitted we did receive a letter from the burough engineer Mr Hall with some additional items that need to be addressed and we did receive an updated letter from Mr Norton um indicating that it was his opinion that could be deemed complete I don't know if as a matter of procedure Mr chair if you want to do that first and then jump into the remaining part of the application or if we can just do it with the testimony when I have Mr mea re when I recall him I don't think we need to Dee it complete again because we deed the soils app complete last month and then I so I think Mr Norton's comment was um chronologically off so we can cover that testimony great so then the plan presentation is we have the contract Pur Mr Charles La Castro that I plan on calling first to explain again the design of the home and why the home is designed in the manner it is which is causing the variance requested and then after Mr La Castro is done I plan on recalling Mr Miola to finish up his engineering testimony and then have him testify in the planning capacity so at this time if we can call Mr Charles L Castro Mr L Castro would you raise your right hand do you swear to tell the truth in the matter pending before the board yes sir state your name and address Charles asro 136 Jam Bridge Road Montville New Jersey you to me so Charlie you're the contract purchaser correct who's looking to build the house at 10 CA house to drive correct yes I am and I know you weren't at the last meeting unfortunately because you were sick but your professionals and myself recapped you on some of the uh concerns the board had in regards to the design of the home yes I couldn't make the last meeting I contacted covid-19 and much better now than the so can you in your own words explain to the board which they heard with the architect um at the last meeting as to how the design of the first floor was done in regards to some of the concerns being the extra wide doorways the layout of the first floor and the garage space yes so at this point in our lives my wife and I want a home that can be uh totally un level because of our physical problems that we have we have illnesses that are going to carry forward in our life at this point that we've gone through um some pretty horrible things in the last two years that made me realize I need to change my living conditions and get something all on one level for the future so that we can handle these things that come back at us potentially in the future future we both suffer from a we have quite problems um excuse me sir you just have to speak up a little louder we both suffer from apib we have heart problems amongst other issues but uh I we corrected them and we're we're in good shape now we want to move forward and make change in our lives and build this house that'll accommodate our new style of living for the future um we've Incorporated the layout to justify wider openings on all the doorways I've sat countless hours with Chris our architect to determine what's going to be the best lay out to the bathroom the curless entries into the shower I wanted to have plenty of light in all rooms and then he's an access in and out of the bedroom to Le re porch if for some reason I lose the capacity of mobility in the future I did happened to me two years ago for like six months I couldn't get around stuff calm down and U I want to plan that you know something comfortable for myself with the rooms with the size of the rooms having access to porches and easy access the I think the space that we planed was we tried to keep conform with the ptic spaces that um so Mr lter I know you initially and your testimony was designed this to be one floor living and right now on the first floor you have how many bedrooms everything is on the first floor our bedrooms our living room we'll call it a dinette kitchen and um exposure to a back porch um the second story is basically for friends and relatives that come over or if I need additional Health Care in the future and this will be my forever and I think I'm going to do this again in the fure um so we're taking this opportunity to make it happen now while we're both phys now after the last meeting um we advised you of some of the board members comments and concerns and regarding being over 420 square feet on that first floor living correct yes and can you explain the board why the garage is important for you to remain the width it is for that future Mobility concerns well as you can see I'm not a small guy need a little extra room to get out of the car we have SUVs we transport both myself and my wife have uh large SUVs and I've had a house similar to this with a smaller garage for many years and had nothing but difficulty getting out and hitting the garage wall on my side so we tried to plan that space for that reason and storage you know remaining space that was add of the storage and also to accommodate a potential future lift into the house for a wheelchair is that correct yes and also consideration so if I understand and your testimony when you met with the architect you really took this as an opportunity on a new construction house to try to design the house to accommodate with what you've already experienced with your lack of mobility and illness and what the future is unfortunately likely going to hold that you would be able to have the house built to accommodate that situation from the beginning correct that is 100% correct rather than having to retrofit the house when and if that time comes this house will is already ready to be fitted right we plan not to move and to stay in the house for holding years and uh I want to make sure it's commentating thank you Mr lra any questions from the board's professionals I don't how many bedrooms are you proposing on the first floor one what one uh the garage is the garage a three car garage is that correct yes why do you need three cars if it's just you and your wife I wanted additional space we use our garage for our cars and I wanted to have more storage for garden tools I'm not going to put a shed up on the property I wanted everything in the garage uh this house comes equipped with a walk out basement correct I'm sorry this house comes equipped with a walk out basement is that correct yes it is could you use the basement for storage we would be using the basement for storage because you need the entire basement in the enlarged garage for storage yes I I came from a very large house I have a lot of stuff and I like my little Hobbies I'll probably paint and do other things in the basement I have no intentions of people live there or finish it for a mad cave it would remain pretty much the way it is and Mr L Castro just so it's clear besides your hobbies and your um garden tools and things that would normally be left in a shed you also have I believe um it was testified too by your architect an antique car or something that you also wanted to be able to store in your garage correct that would be true I should I I want to make room for a car I've owned it few years it'll be hard for me to park with it it's a 1989 of ATI and I kind of love the car So eventually I'll probably sell it but for now I want to maintain the spons for and you're also understand with the design of the garage that when the time comes for the then it really probably will only even though it's a three car accommodate two vehicles correct yes how many steps are there up from the garage slab to the first floor elevation we we tried to minimize that as much as we possibly could keeping the front elevation of the floor fairly close to the street elevation and I think we balanced it as maximum as we could potentially get it balanced on all aspects from the front sto into the house and also from the garage into the house I think we'll end up with maybe two steps if that we're just going to try to minimize it as much as we could okay thank you any questions from board members regarding this testimony questions members of the public great thank you Mr chairman thank you Mr at this time we'd like to recall Mr Frei CA C you understand you're still under oath from the last meeting yes I do okay and all your licenses and credentials are still current since the last meeting yes they are so Mr miolo why don't we do some cleanup first and start with the changes that were done to the soil disturbance application yes um page so just through it I'm on page 44 and we all should be dealing with a drawing that's dated January 5th which are the plans that were resubmitted to the board correct the main reason why we came up originally we had a balanced site is because asking for a drain in the back corner the building to catch the water coming off the easterly lawn area increase the dryw by one more pit so I had to get rid of all that dirt plus the sale created some extra dirt too so it ended up that we had 127 yards of fill we were going to have to remove BR just to be clear believe Mr Norton's letter says 128 cubic yards yeah it's I think it's a actually the exact number that we calculated I believe was 125.782470703125 had regarding items needed for to still be addressed in regards to the soil disturbance yes I I I looked at Leon's letter um and we're fine with everything I mean three four five are all okay we'll take care of adding those numbers we had already submitted to Mars County soil erosion I did try putting a call into the to find out uh I couldn't get anybody on the phone so it's still going through the process but it should be approved they actually had called me for one little change that they didn't sent back to them so it's in the works okay and item six and seven uh six and seven are fine also so there's nothing in Mr Hall's letter that you cannot comply with in regards to the comments regarding the soil disturbance uh request no not at all now when we left the uh last meeting can I jump in there for one second sure um refer to my comments six and seven but under soil disturbance I have no comments six and seven I just want to make sure that we're all talking about the same comments I have uh section A of my report so disturbance I have comments one two and three that's all I have under there soil disturbance yes make sure we're talking about the same thing yeah your letter was fine I have no problems with any of the comments we'll take care of cleaning it up it's basically housekeeping now there there's one comment um it just kind of came to the order last week or so it's not in my report but it's very important that um if there's an approval here in the so does get indeed exported um Mountain Way School is right down Mountain Way from the site and if there is an approval there needs to be a condition that no loaded trucks export soil from the site during times the school drop off and pick up so I'd like to see the trucks only roll from about 10:00 a.m. to about 2 p.m. I it's only eight or 10 trucks yeah we're two days not that much but we can't have trucks anywhere near the school uh when kids are getting dropped off or picked up yeah and and we had also talked uh Leon had suggested going down Dogwood and then over I to granis and then up that way to to Route 10 and we're fine with that also but yes we can keep it between 10 and two just to be safe and just to confirm the record that all the soil that you're exporting is indeed leaving the burrow of moris PLS is that correct yes as of right now it's going to East H long as it goes outside the burrow that's all I care okay so Fred moving ahead on Mr Hall's letter going under Section B for the application comments okay and also refreshing your memory as to some of the comments from the um last meeting can you highlight to the board if there's anything in Mr Hall's letter that you were unable to achieve engineering wise and the revisions you made to the plan yeah I I do not believe there's anything in Mr Hall's report that we have to deal with that we can comply with everything I've read it over again uh you know some of the things are just general comments and uh size of pipes and those kind of things and we will take care of those how about my comment seven on page three a through D that has to do with your analysis within 500 ft of properties um in terms of the building coverage yeah we I'll change those words and we'll add the house numbers uh yeah I mean to me everything seems just like clean up again unless I'm missing something going on and again Mr Miola when you go into the planning testimony you do have an exhibit this evening that you have also prepared that also addresses um some of the concerns regarding number seven in Mr Hall's letter as well correct yeah seven the will be addressed with the package that we prepared okay so just to be clear you were able to um insert the inlet at the end of the sale and pipe it to the dry well as Mr Hall had previously indicated yes we did okay and we show the trees remaining on the property correct as was indicated at the last meeting correct okay and you were able to do the test pit that Mr Hall had requested as well yes and I believe we show it now we we've got we were able to get down 13 ft with a little bit of diff ulty because it was a rubber tired backo and as he got closer to the bottom we kept hitting more and more rock that he had to pick out but he was able to pick it out that far so there is there is no groundwater nothing popped in the soil log and the soil permeability is satisfactory so Mr M before we move into your planning component of the testimony is there any other remaining engineering items that need to be addressed so that Mr Hall is satisfied in regards to the engineering revisions that were made from between last meeting and this meeting um no I don't believe so I believe everything has been addressed or will be cleaned up based on the report that Mr Hall gave us okay so with that being said I we'd like to move into the can we cover Mr n's letter absolutely it's a leave the complet disregard his completeness comment but he does have a condition that he recommends if you could read that for the record on his January 22nd 2024 let us know if you agree to that condition yeah yeah we we agree with it we have no problem you this just came in today and the public may not know about it just read the pertinent sentence please yeah um I recommend that the application be approved is complete with the condition that the applicant provide the burrow engineer the source and quantity all Construction cated materials to be imported for the site Foundation drainage and Landscaping I.E QP Stone Topo at least 45 days prior to start construction and we will comply with that AR you good with that is to close on Mr Norton's comment yes that's Joe nordan uh that's a typical comment from Mr all right and so do you want to um end the engineering testimony with questions and then for break on you're going to have them go into planning and then allow questions for both components Mr chair it's probably more efficient if we have any engineering questions to answer them now and then go into planning we any additional engineering questions no board members any questions on engineering testimon heard tonight any members of the public have questions to this witness on the engineering teson heard that part is closed we're on planning testimony yes thank you so Mr mola before you start your planning testimony you did prepare an exhibit for the board correct yes I do okay and um I believe uh Karen we're at 84 and we'll call this one just generically planning exhibit if that works Mr Sullivan yes okay so we brought plenty of copies for all the board members and for the professionals remember you last you guys got one okay so Mr mola one of the um charges that the board of planner and professionals and as well as the board asked was that you get some clarity on the figures that were provided on your last correct yep that is correct so one of the first things um that was done by Council um to help facilitate that was We did an opener request and the board members will see in their packets that we actually had the full tax cards for each property on the street ped so we're dealing with exact numbers not guesstimates like before based off information found online that this is actually on file with the municipality's tax office is correct Mr mola yes and let me just so everybody knows they were all stapled together top page is a summary then you have the tax map and you have an aerial map of cowy way and then everyone goes in order starting on the left side of Kowski going up C turnning around and coming back so all these are stapled together in that order so you have the picture and you have the C right with okay so Mr Miola um and I believe the um board's planner had indicated that one of the things was to come up with what the first floor footprint for lack of the better is for all the other houses on Kowski correct yes so that was the first number you calculated from the tax cards correct yes the first number we calculated and number two of I'll highlight the ones that are in our size or slightly larger than ours uh number two Cousy has a first floor footprint of 3475 Square ft that's including the garage at the first floor level and then 12 kuskowski has 3,26 square feet nine Kowski has 2,989 Square fet um and then our lot which is number 10 Kowski we're right now we're proposing 3, 99 square feet so they're pretty much in keeping uh yeah I'll save it for later I'll just keep going okay and just to be clear currently right now um number four and number six Kowski are currently vacant Lots however number four kasowski actually has filed plans with the municipality correct so that's where you got those numbers from yes yes the number four is based on the plans that were submitted U and that will comply number six we don't know this it's a vacant lot it's owned by uh husband and wife okay so then the next thing that you uh wanted to calculate and make sure it was correct on the record because there was some questions and concerns with the numbers that were ascertained um prior to getting the official tax card is for lack of a better word what the tax assessor calls the livable square foot areas of the other homes on the street correct and where does this property fit in with those existing homes today or proposed homes for the plans on fire they most of them are pretty much in keeping with us uh our home between the first floor and the half the half a story above for the extra bedrooms to comply would would be at 3950 Square ft two kuskowski is at 3760 four kuskowski is at 4285 8 Kowski is at 3359 12 kuskowski is at 4775 nine Kowski is at 4,094 Square ft 7 Kowski is 4,3 92 Square ft and then five kuskowski is one of the smaller homes in the neighborhood it's at 3136 and the house at the corner of Kowski and Mountain Way is at 1833 so that's the whole street up and around okay um so putting your planning hat on for a moment just kind of take the board through the neighborhood as far as the styles of homes that you see on kasowski yeah if you look at the pictures you can see the majority of the style of the homes are twostory Colonials so they have the living space on the first floor the bedroom's upstairs and I point that out because I think it's important to realize you heard what uh Mr latro thank you I've known him for years and I forgot his name m Mr L Castro is trying to accomplish and I think a lot of the problem with us being over by the 400 square feet or so is because of them trying to put in a master bathroom master bedroom on that first floor if you took that and moved it up stairs we would probably have very similar home to everybody else in the neighborhood and totally conformance so Mr Miola you had an opportunity to review um the uh board planner Mrs leane's uh planning memo correct yes okay can you go through your opinion as a planner the C2 variance relief that would be necessary for the variances sought and let me just stop you I just want to make sure I understand how you're proceeding with your variance case you are proceeding under C2 not C1 is that correct we're proceeding yes SE to that's flexible say yes yes okay thank you um I'm sorry I look got the question um can you go through the C2 variance proofs um in connection with the application um because at this point the application is requesting the variance for the maximum building coverage which is currently at 3,9 sorry 3,99 Square ft correct is correct the total um first coverage that is proposed and under your chart that you prepared and in accordance with the uh planner's calculation and I believe uh Mr Hall's review of the application is what's permitted for first floor in this lot is 2,679 square feet yes that is correct we we're over by 420 square feet on the first floor and then the second floor is only a half a story it's it's only to have the availability in the future because selling a one bedroom house is very difficult so even though they're not planning on using the bedrooms they want to have the ability to have it in there um and that's why it's only half a story and they put some the architect did a nice job putting some nice Dormers up there to make it doesn't look like a flat roof it's got a nice pretty look to it and Mr mol you did hear Mr L Castro's testimony that the two additional bedrooms making this a three-bedroom house would also be used by guest or future health aids that would be necessary corre so it's not just I don't want the board to have the impression it's just for resale okay yes okay so can you go through the C2 variance uh proofs um as far as the variance relief being sought here tonight yeah I mean we're talking about do the benefits of allowing the home to be 400 square foot larger in footprint than what the ordinances make sense in this thing and I and I think given all the testimony you have and Mr L Castro and him and his wife planning for their future and staying in this home um it makes sense um you know you could shave a little bit here or there but trying to get 400 square feet off of this house and keep the same size of the bedrooms and the open doors and the extra bathroom uh doesn't doesn't work and as I pointed out again if this was a traditional two-story Colonial we probably would totally comply and we' be talking about a total square footage house significantly larger than what applic what the applicant is proposing well yes I mean if if you took this as a two-story house we're allowed 2,679 square feet so you could double that so our maximum size could be 5,000 300 and change I did it in my head quickly so you know the home that's being proposed is not excessively large for the neighborhood the problem is the size on the first floor footprint is a little bit over what's what's Allowed by code so Mr Miola as part of the um application packet there were some additional um uh proofs that you had offered as part of the addendum um those proofs is that part of your outline of testimony and support of the flexible C yes okay um and are there any detriments associated with granting dis Varian that you can foresee yeah i' I've been out to this neighborhood probably at least eight to 10 times through this process because of the extra dry Wells and the extra Deb we had to get I was out there numerous times looking at these homes and I believe that this house with the size is in with keeping with all of the other houses that have been built on Kowski way uh different style home but as far as its appearance it's going to look it's going to look in powerit it belongs there it's not going to be sticking out like a sore thumb the the only one that does look a little bit out of place is the one at the corner because it's the smallest house in the neighborhood and it looks you drive by and it's like small compared to all the other ones you just you can see it you know and I'm not picking on them it's just a smaller home it's it's one of the oldest homes too it's been that was there before because Kowski was built and the new homes went up hey so Mr mola besides the fact that the bedroom is located on the first floor as part of the design that Mr La Castro and his wife are seeking due to health related issues and future wheelchair accessibility concerns um did you also have an opportunity to kind of analyze that if there was a detached garage versus an attached garage or any of those things would that help the overall coverage for the house it it would the detach garage I believe Falls in a different category if I remember correctly um so would help the coverage but from what the client the owner who's the person who's going to be buying the property wants it wouldn't help because now as he's getting older and he has a problem in the wheelchair the garage is going to be a Tre rolling it up especially considering the grades out there trying to wheel it up the driveway let me just stop you the I don't know why a garage wouldn't be counted towards building coverage I thought a detached garage fell under a different category Maybe I'm Wrong no it's included the I'll I'll not your column first floor footprint is actually incorrect it it the the building coverage is all of the principal and accessory structures so it's beyond just the you know if it wasn't to das garage it would still be in this category okay I stand corrected I apologize um yeah but the detach garage would bring a different problem into into the mix okay Mr M is there any additional proofs that you would like to put on the record in support of the variant being sought yeah no I mean I think it's it's a fairly straight forward application it's an application and it's one of those applications where you're not looking at well I'm going to approve it but we're not quite sure who's you know this is the person who's already on the contract to buy the house to buy the lot to build a house so you know exactly what's going to be built there you know this is exactly what's going to be there there's not going to be any change and would you have any issues as a planner with any conditions um and following up with what Mr La Castro said that if the board were to Grant the variance being sought that there would be no shed placed on the property and that the size of the house would be the size that is approved any additional additions or anything that have to come back to this board for additional approval no I mean I think that's only fair considering what we're saying and and the reason why we feel that this is this is a good application and it should get a variance um if we're being honest with you we shouldn't have any problems with that with those restrictions thank you Mr M questions from the board's professionals on this Tes I do so um as you I'm sure know the second half of the positive criteria is that the benefits of granting this variance would outway the detriments and the benefits really need to be for the general public it can just be benefits to the homeowner so can you provide testimony as to how this would benefit the neighborhood or moris Plains at large or you know I I I think the benefits would be that this is if you look at the plans this a very nice very attractive home that fits into that neighborhood very well different style than the other ones cu the other ones are all two story Colonials but the appearance still is a very nice clear clean appearance that would be a benefit to that neighborhood it would look like it's belongs there now if somebody was deciding that they wanted to build a contemporary home there I don't know if I would be able to say the same thing it's not going to fit but the home was thought about in the proper light trying to say let's let's blend in with the neighbors that are out there yeah sorry I was just going to follow up if you don't mind U Mr mola also as part of the um criteria um isn't it also true that even though it is over on the building coverage um it does not violate any setbacks yes yes there there's ample room on this property to fit this home it's not being squeezed in to hit minimum setbacks to make it work there the setbacks if you look are all Beyond what's allowed now with the benefits that you outlined um in terms of streetcape or aesthetic would those still be benefits still exist even if you had a compliant um building coverage yes yes if you if you had a you could design a house very attractive that's going to fit with the neighborhood that would blend in very well the only diff Advantage is it's not going to meet the needs of the person who's looking to buy the property and build the home I just um of the houses and the tax cards that you provided um of the six homes that have been complete I don't know if you happen to count how many of them have bedrooms on the ground floor I don't believe any of them do well I just saw four of them do out of the six yeah so it's not an uncommon feature I think in in the neighborhood four four of the homes have bedrooms on the first floor yes I stand correctly then I apologize um and just one other thing in your in your table you know you note that the um the the livable area on the proposed home is 3,950 that doesn't include the attic space though right no 3,950 includes the the attic the area of space I shouldn't say that it's the space above the first floor you know I I don't think there's enough of a pitch to have anything upstairs in the Attic because the attic is really under the eaves this home when you look at the pictures of it that the architect has I think I think the architectural drawings show that there is a square footage that is above five feet in height which would count there's no stairway up there it's it's just right there's no it's a pull down stair system pull down stairs it's for store as was testified to with the ease and the slant ceiling there would be no way yeah it's I think there is a fair amount of square footage that's above yeah no I hear you you may have to get the architect up because I'm not sure of the way his numbers are calculated up here whether the second floor area is the same as the attic proposed attic because the attic is the areas on the sides because I'm looking at a a a tie beam across the top um and just one further note that I'm done Mr chair is that the two asters cover page was say aerial image shows part of rear deck Pera um rear decks and unroof structures and a Pera sort of in that area that was provided it's not a roof and and building coverage only um includes root structures so so that that's why it would not be counted what was your what was your source of data for the observation on the on the first floor um the tax records that are provided so it's the information within exhibit 84 that's right questions I U Mr miol you said um for the subject property total livable areas 3,950 correct correct and first floor is 3,99 correct so that means the second story is roughly 850 Square F feet is that correct yes and that's what your architectural plans indicate I should ask you that I hope so we 851 squet now of the there's there's 10 properties on the street uh two of which are vacant but one does have a set of plans so the nine of the 10 there are either structures existing or is a structure about to be built correct correct uh if you take your property off now we're down to eight of the 10 10 properties with structures on them or will have structures on them of those eight how many are conforming in terms of Maximum permitted building coverage I believe all but one so seven of the eight are conforming correct correct okay thank you so again Mr mola though the proofs under flexible C are that the benefits outweigh the detriment in regards to the property that is seeking the variance here tonight correct not all the other properties in the neighborhood even though those proofs help often with plan and testimony correct yes and it's your testimon this evening in constructing the house in a manner that allows the contract purchaser to design and build the house from the beginning rather than come back to the board later for variances and retrofit a house to have it be handicap Ada accessible for the needs of the applicant and his family it's your position that those along with the benefits to the public that were enumerated in the application and IFI to help support that flexible C argument yes yes I mean I I I think you know this this is an applicant that wants to build his house here he wants to spend the rest of his life here and he's trying to accomplish that with what he's trying to build being conscious of the fact that he's already had some problems so he knows he needs the first floor bedroom so again the issue here is that the first floor maximum building coverage is the issue but the overall size of the house fits within the sizes of the homes in fact it's smaller than four of the other homes on the uh on the uh block that you enumerated in your chart correct yes I am correct and that with proper conditions if this board were to feel free to feel in support of granting it would ensure that this house would in the overall stay the size it is today as part of the consideration for granting that relief correct correct I was just checking something that planner had said and Elizabeth I apologize I just went through the cards and unless I miscounted it I only counted three houses that had a bedroom on the first floor in the chart some of the charts are blank so I don't know um I saw that two kakowski did um and then I wrote down 12 kakowski let just double check yeah so yes but there she's right there are some homes out there that have a bedroom on the first floor it's just a question of the number okay so FR just going through though two Cals caly according to the tax card is a total five bedroom yes correct it has a bedroom on the first flooor okay um obviously for kakowski we don't have the full sets of the plans with us so I don't know if you remember how many bedrooms that has okay so skip that one number six is obviously a vacant lot okay so number eight unfortunately doesn't list any of breakdown by floor correct yes okay so that one is unclear and it's unclear as to number of bedrooms right okay then 12 has one on the ground floor hold on before we get to 12 we should have number 10 right number 10 is also blank 10 is us is us so we will we will have one on the first FL hopefully and then and nine 12 has one which is 12 kasowski has one which is a also a five bedroom home correct yes okay so and nine has one nine has one which is also a five bedroom home right yes okay um seven does I think no no seven does not and that is a four bedroom home right yes and number number five no has none and that's a four bedro and then 272 Mountain it has two on the first floor 272 Mountain the smallest house I I really think those are the only bedrooms on that probably 272 it says two bedrooms on the second floor a cape it's a cape so two downstairs and two up now Fred also though just for purposes of what um is classified as a bedroom as any room that has a closet correct correct so why it's listed as a bedroom with the closet it may not be an actual bedroom being utilized in the home correct well yes we don't know how they're utilizing the rooms this is just what the uh the town assessor cards have on them as a their description of it yes so again out of the six homes that we just went through three of them are five bedrooms three are four bedrooms and how many bedrooms does our client's house have three three bedrooms questions question from board membersy sorry sorry so so I have no question in my mind about um the value of barrier free accessibility in terms of planning how does the third Bay in the garage benefit how does that contribute towards benefiting the public as a positive criteria it's doesn't it's a wish of the client that have free car garage so he can have his supplies and equipment in there I agree with you it's a large garage I've had numerous talks with if the if the garage were traditional two-car garage with room for a barrier free lift eventually would there still be a C2 needed yes I I don't think you can cut 400 square ft off of this garage you know you may be able to shave 100 square foot off it just 100d just 100 well let me look at the plan we are really see the the benefit to the public that is larger house brings that a compant house help me help me see that benefit to the public to the public I get the benefit to the Buy Mr look at the floor planes on she a-103 um that rear garage Bay I guess for the NT car uh I believe measures uh 14t 2 in wide by about 18 ft deep that's a lot more than 100 sare ft yes that's why I hesitate and I wanted to find the plan I don't have it with me so uh yes it's yeah it's about that's about 250 sare ft if I did it right yeah I got 250 and those are inside dimensions that's correct so actually be bigger than that for the walls add another six in around the two sides of the perimeter don't [Music] so if you added uh the 6in wall thickness maybe another 20 square feet maybe around 270 square feet plus or minus something like that plus or minus yeah so I had a question hanging um that I didn't hear answer do you remember the question you hear it I repeat you about the garage why what the benefits are for and I I tell you honestly there aren't it's it's the wishes of the client to want a three C garage because him and his wife need room to maneuver in and out and I would take care of the front portion but that last portion is where he was going to keep his antique car you know that's what's going to have to be eliminated to comply and and it wouldn't comply but it would just to bring it closer to compliance you know bring us down in the ball park of maybe 175 200 square foot excess instead of 4 430 if I could ask you to um offer an affirmative number that maybe a calculated instead of estima yeah we have the architect maybe double check that number sure CU he's working on it right now sure okay since Mr M is not even looking yeah since I don't have the right page here so I think the question is if that third Bay was eliminated what would be the building coverage y that's what we're working on right now well yes if we eliminated the third garage Bay we would be looking for 2838 so we'd be over by 159 Square ft and is it your opinion that reduction by that amount has no adverse effect on the barrier free accessibility to or within the building correct questions board questions question members of the public comments on this application Mr chairman if I may just ask a my Cent question I just don't pause for a moment just this thank you Mr chairman members of the board so I conferred with my client in the contract purchaser and just to be clear for the record we would like to request that the application be amended to remove the 261 Square ft from garage so as testified to by Mr Miola that would make the total building coverage 2,838 square feet we still require variance because we're 159 Square ft over which is a result of having that small roof area for the rear deck and having the aesthetic design in the front for the front coverage porch which is more aesthetic in nature than functional noted thank you thank you questions for the professionals on that revision you just sorry you just mentioned the exterior deck because that's not count you haven't counted that towards your your building coverage correct we have the 3099 includes the roof over the de of the roof the the screen porch correct but not the exterior deck no cuz that doesn't count the RO over the porch the right and then the front roof over the front aesthetic um porch that's part of the design of the home which doesn't have so much functionality it's just for design aesthetic your front covered porch is 26 feet long correct or Min I'm asking yes 27 and as testified to last time this parted the aesthetic design of the home and as the A1 exhibit showed last time a lot of the their homes have the covered porches columns different variations of that in the neighborhood I'm just looking at that cover por 27 ft long um I can obviously see it where the front door is there where it says covered porch but there's two extensions of the porch on either side of that in front of the laundry and the front of the uh oh I'm sorry trying to get that is there a way that the covered PCH could be shaved down a little bit yeah I mean at this time the applicant has really shaved a lot and the Aesthetics of the home are important to the client and it also allows for when that day happens and they need to be able to be wheel or set or maneuver on the P to give some flexibility there on the P I'm not sure the board's um VI that concern so much of the front atic of the house losing any questions on is removed will that classic car then just be parked outside in the driveway would that be a car would be his choice whether it's going to be a classic or one of the SUVs is up to him so it would be there would be permanently a vehic per V driveway which is allowed by Orin of course saying would be that benefit to have if he has three vehicles to have one covered I was just asking that yeah I suspect the evante will stay in the garage you mentioned having the room for a lift in the future yes can you talk about that a little bit well the client's is worrying that as he gets older he's having more and more difficulty he's going to have his car parked there he has to get from the garage to the house and I should correct something he said it was about two steps it's really going to be more like four because it's about 30 Ines between the garage floor and the first floor so there'll have to be a small lift to get him up that four feet and does removal of that third Bay give you room do that I I would think so but that's more of an architectural question yeah if you look where those stairs come in from the first floor into the garage there's plenty of room there for a lift even if you remove that bay lift like this is only roughly 2T wide by about 3T deep PL about 4 by4 I put went in on a project I had in Hover we put in a lift to get somebody up the stairs meet handicap Cod for a little chiropractice office what out is there any any living space above that third Bay that you're removing in the garage no no so you have a garage going straight back with nothing on top nothing on top roof you know pitch roof yeah yeah yeah because the uh the drawings I have seem to show a roof beyond the the front of the garage no it's the roof over just over the garage the one that I have that shows the calculation um on the left side you can see where the Fay of the garage is and it just says the roof is running from front to back I believe Chris do you have the elevations that show last just to it was just the way the pitch of the roof went front back but this is like testified to last time the smaller story above with the two bedrooms that little open walk and bath change the roof line a little bit ask the roof line now yeah the back of the roof line would change yeah come so so look even look much more uneven so this this Ridge if we take off 18 you in not today we last time you did okay just so the record's clear you understand you're still under the road if we bring the back of the garage in 18 ft this would probably drop you know six feet this r would drop down 60 yeah so it wouldn't look balanced on both sides the other side would still have that Ro why couldn't you just pick up the pitch so it wouldn't drop so much what hold on a second why couldn't you pick up the pitch of the roof so it wouldn't drop six feet we we always try to keep front to back pitches consistent throughout the house if we raise this up to make it equal we would want to raise this up which we don't have room height-wise to do so I don't think that's a a viable option but the concern is that it won't match the roof on the opposite side of the building as far as height goes correct it will not so why can't you drop the other side what's what's above that particular this is all attic space above the master suite again if you drop the pitch on one you're going to drop the pitch on all of them so it looks consistent right where you're going to keep the Ridge and have an asymmetric pit front back front to back that looks terrible I'm saying there's not just one solution correct but it is something that you can work out with the applicant to still be in compliance obviously we're not here for height variance correct correct okay any additional questions on this change testimony from for either the planner or the architect up from board members can can somebody can you just confirm what is the variance now we're looking for there's two variances there's a variance for building coverage yeah what did it go down to 2838 Square ft where 2679 ft is allowed so there is an overage of 159 sare ft thank you any questions from members of the public for this RIS seeing none this witness is complete this is now the opportunity for members of the public to make comments on this application as a whole seeing none I'll turn the floor over to the applicant attorney for opposing statement if she wishes uh yes thank you Mr chairman members of the board we appreciate your listening to the testimony at the last meeting as well as this one um sorry um I just wanted to be clear um councel did we determine at the last meeting that we no longer needed the disturbance of Ste think we still need the soil disturbance we still need that correct so so disturbance or steep SL yeah you still need it okay I just wanted to be clear but the the degree of it will change if the building footprint changes be able to calculate that here Mr May did the area of steep slopes greater than 20% change as a result of your latest revised grading plan oh so so again you're seeking 3,99 feet of disturbance of steep slopes 20% or greater correct okay and then in regards to the maximum building coverage that goes down to 2,838 sare Ft where before it was 399 so again Mr chair memb of the board we appreciate all your time and consideration as you heard from the contract purchaser as well as the architect and the planner the goals here and what was trying to be balanced was being able to design a house from the beginning that would meet the needs of the contract purchaser in regards to the wheelchair accessibility needs that unfort the contract purchaser has already dealt with and is prepared for the inevitable future that that is going to entail and with that being said they tried to use this opportunity to design the house to meet all those needs currently rather than put in a house and then retrofit it and come back to the board with the variances that will be required in the future the idea here was for lack of a better word was to be up front and have better planning now at the onset of the design of the home rather than just to put the house up and then come back to the board later when those circumstances have changed we hope that the uh Mr chairman and members of the board that you can see that the contract purchaser is working with the board understood the concerns has taken off uh 261 Square ft of the garage to show that he appreciates the board's concerns we are still over 159 square fet but we hope the planning testimony provided by Mr Miola alleviates the board's concerns that under the C2 variance relief and looking at the scope and the sizes of the homes the general makeup of the neighborhood and the design of the house and the characteristics of the home that we meet those purposes under the municipal land use law and support of that C2 barage relief that we're seeking and we hope the board approves this application thank you so much can I ask Karen just a question um this is a carryover from a prior meeting all the board members are eligible except for Mr cata because he's alternate too right were you here you were not either oh okay so the people that W here is Mr Mr we and Mr R so how many eligible voters do we have so we would have um s which one we have Mr basa Mr Cortez Mr car Mr mccab we have a little more so we have five five board members are eligible okay so that's is Mr am he is eligible he was here last meeting even though anate well he can step in now the three that cannot vote ra your can vote right so six who can vote so it's the time for the board to deliberate to deliberate publicly put our thoughts um on the record um we often go over conditions of approval before we begin conversations just because it informs the conversation does not presume approval Mr Sol what conditions do you have okay if this application is approved it will be subject to compliance with the items contained in Mr Hall's report of January 18 2024 uh compliance with the comment in the moris County soyal conser Conservation District report of January 17 2024 we would impose a condition that loaded trucks would only travel between 10:00 a.m. and 2: p.m. and the soil shall be relocated outside the burrow have to comply with Mr Norton's January 22 to 24 comment um the after stipulated there would be no shed on the property that there would be no additions to the home I think that's everything that I have do you have anything else Mr hall or M maybe you said it maybe I missed it uh no trucks coming down did you say that limited to between 10: a.m. and 2 p.m. no yeah board members HS certainly a lot to unpack here um you know we've been obviously deliberating over this for some time um you know I I I think in summation the applicant has uh been responsive to our commentary here and some of our you know questions and concerns and adjusted the application you know consistent with that that um and I think that you know generally speaking um they've they've answered the mail relative to meeting the C2 C2 bar you know when I was up on the and looking around it seems like the the rendering will fit in nicely you know take into consideration the you know for the steep slope the hardships that exist on that lot there's no way getting around it so I don't have a problem with that and then the coverage is again it's going to fit in um and looking at the data that was provided there was a house that's over it's U it's within reason the compromise made I think is you know address the one outstanding issue in my own mind about you know need the hardship versus you know the public good that you brought up so I I you know I'm definitely in favor of moving forward with it I kind of like the fact that adding another home in the burrow that is ADA Compliant for future home buyers as well um is a is a good thing for our town I know there's a quite a few uh homes that do compli in recent years or have complied in recent years and I think it's a it's a good thing so take that as a um segue absolutely underscore right this 159 Square fet you know attributable to barrier-free some to the porch right but in my mind U front porches that are occupiable are a benefit to the public moris planes is better when people are sitting out there watching waving to their neighbors and and the dogs that are going by and whatnot so I think that's attributable to that so I think um with the amended application it it went far to um to becoming an acceptable C2 and I steep slope is in my mind is not an issue that's a controls during construction right that's a construction issue for the most part all right does anybody want to make a motion regarding this application I make a motion to approve with the uh conditions stated earlier there second second karing roll call for from six people please okay Mr Baza yes Mrs gz yes Mr yes Mr M yes Mr Schulz yes and Mr C yes right your application has been approved this action requires a resolution to memorialize the board's action on the application for the record and this will be on the agenda regular February thank you Mr chairman thank you everyone 856 we're going to take a 10-minute break 9:06 back here please thank you --------- all right let the records show that the meeting is back in session 906 and that all members of the board previously Independance have return the next matter on tonight's agenda is ba3 22 oh I looked at us look for the engineer all right let me read the intro and then we'll give a moment the next matter on tonight's agenda is b322 Interstate Outdoor Advertising LP of Cali wall LC 177 by Route 10 East block 1 lot 1.02 the application was deemed complete a few months ago was properly noticed we've heard testimony in October November the matter has been carried at this evening meeting with no need for additional notice I see Mr C's the applicant please roduce yourself and then we're going to pause oh Leon's back pause yours for short recap or testimony straight away very good thank you Mr chairman see everybody tonight on behalf of the applicant Larry call Happy New Year folks thank you for having us back Mr to chair members I think we intend to we intend to be brief and I think we will be brief this evening what I'll do is I'll frame very quickly what it is that we think we've accomplished over the course of the past two meetings but what it is that we intend to do this evening on a very limited basis with a recall of a single witness Mr Jeffrey Gerber who has previously testified been sworn and he is the COO and president of Business Development for Interstate outdoor shortly um just by way of a very limited um recap of what we've done so far Mr chairman we've discussed that interstates a proven operator they're all over the country they've handled some very large projects um for cities throughout the country we talked about the one in Chicago at length um they're not a fly by n operator they do this all over the place they do this very well and they're proposing to do this here on this property and we talked about the sign at like we talked about the controlled content of this sign that it would have the self-imposed restrictions with no adult thematic advertising on there we talked about the public service announcement flips that would be offered um every two minutes and if we were having downtime with advertising it could be even more potentially we talked about the Amber Alerts and the other First Response emergency alerts that could be on there there's a lot of good that comes with this uh we talked about the ability to coexist with the dot improvements if you recall we talked about that at length Leon brought it up we discussed it with civil engineering we discussed with Mr Gerber who was previously a deputy attorney general working with the dot and has extensive experience that agency um in a moment I'll describe to you the plan changes that we're going to show you shortly in an updated photo Sim exhibit deck um how we're further um coinciding and and and living harmoniously with those DOT requirements that we've got here you heard from our project planner and our traffic engineer prior testimony hearing um they testified at length to conclusion through cross examination I think the big punch lines there were you heard very strong support from our project planner in support of the variance relief here and our traffic engineer um testimony was relatively uncontradicted by your own consultant who I know is here this evening and Mr moltz certainly can reiterate that but um they were in agreement as far as the traffic impacts and the safety concerns that are raised or in fact not occasioned by this sign that we've got here tonight um the coinciding with the dot improvements you know we we've had an opportunity to consider Shifting the sign back further what else can we do with it we talked the last hearing about well if it shifts back further it has to go up to 52 ft because we have to clear the roof of the structure the applicant has sort of gone back to reconsider the approach has heard the board's concerns and thoughts and has implemented those recommendations and what we're going to do here tonight and Mr Gerber will testify further and we'll show it to you on the Sims is we've now increased the setback um the dot right away to 20 ft so that's East to the right of way that is clear of the dot right away in land reservation area we wouldn't have to be in a situation where down the road years from now do decided they wanted to come along and improve in that area we would have to then move the pole um we don't know we no long need any conditions of approval that would hinge upon the applicant doing something post approval by way of an implementation if when do came along we are now clear we're back 20 ft that accounts for the land reservation area as well as the regulatory spacing that we need between utility polls and our billboard improvements um we've increased the non-conforming side yard setback it's nominal but it's an increase so it's an improvement it was 54.7 ft it's now going to 55 ft even Mike let me know if I to slow down I know you're taking notes on these numbers um there's also a minor reduction and these are not essentially no change items because they're conforming to begin with but there's a reduction in the street side sidey guard setback to 169.74 so it's a reduction of 0.4 foot um it's still conforming there's a reduction of the rear yard setep back back to 225. it was previously proposed at 233.356 during the prior hearings in the initial filing we're at 672 square foot of the sign so it's 168 ft square foot reduction and the way we did that was the sign is now dimensioned at 12T by 42 ft so the sign is losing its dimension on the bottom side which allows for the T sign top height to remain at 49 ft we're no longer climbing as proposed to 52 ft like we discussed in a prior meeting so the sign's gotten smaller top height Remains the Same we're clear outside of the dot Improvement areas the only variance we had for the non-conforming sidey guard did improve it's nominal but it did improve for the better the other two conditions are changes but they remain fully conforming to the code as proposed so overall we've had a lot of things accomplished in the past nearly two months since we've been here before the board last what I'd like to do Mr chairman is um like I said we're going to keep it relatively lean this evening with a single recall witness Mr Gerber I'd like to call him now Jeff can walk you folks through the programming as amended and we can go from there I just want to make sure I ask somebody these num straight the uh the pole height was 32t is that still 32 ft the pole height will be 34 feet but the overall sign height will remain at 49 feet right and and just again you were sworn in at the last here you understand you're still on the road yes sir um and the so the the Pole's 34 ft height and the area including the face the support of the sign was 17 ft that's still 17 ft it's it's 12T fet for the sign height and then you have a 3ot apron which makes it 15 the 15 plus the 34 get you to 49 ft gotta okay and one of the variances was that you needed a front yard setback from Route 10 of 6 ft and what is that now okay FR right now when we when we submitted our our application the sign was 6 feet back from the do right away but it was 6 feet I'll say nor of the land reservation line after I had discussions uh with with Mr DRC at do and understood what do was proposing um the land reservation line did not change but what we learned is that the electric power line utility line relocation will be 2 feet to the north of the land reservation line the our signs need need to be 10 ft away from those power lines so we push the sign to be 8 ft behind the land reservation line that 8 ft plus the two gives you the 10 and because we were 6 feet back from the land res 6 feet yeah six feet from the do RightWay line back you get a total we might to push a sign back 14 feet from its current location which is the 6 ft from the land reservation line plus the eight and we already were 6 feet from the original dot right away line so I get you a 20 feet setback so the setback from Route 10 is 20 ft correct the current route 10 right away long Mike can I jump in here I don't understand those facts okay um the land reservation as for the D book and page is 12 feet wide correct yes sir that's where the utility polls are going to go no if you look at A1 the exhibit that I brought the utility lines are going to be 2 feet I'll say Say closer to Route 10 okay or 2 ft to the north so no that will not that caused some original confusion frankly to me as well but it's clear that those utility those lines will be 2 feet to the north of that land reservation line and that's something that do told you that's correct that this this A1 exhibit was sent to me from Mr DEC at do so um if the poles are back 10 ft you have to be 10t clear that and that's how you get the 20 ft yes sir that's correct so so question all this leave distance from the Route 10 in the imaginary line to side if two months ago your pole was here and today your poll is here how how far did it move uh instead of saying the poll the front of the sign uh would be 14 ft back which equals because it's currently 6 ft from the current rwi light get you 20 and the PO the same Place pole is in the same place we're sliding the sign back that's correct okay when you say back do you mean back south South if if you're looking route one's running East and West there I mean um Route 10 South South 10 feet South that is correct towards the back of the building right towards yeah towards the back of the building that's correct so back can I ask a question the pole previously was set back approximately 35 ft from rout 10 is that change that it's going to stay at that location thank you now that pole and its foundation can fit in that curved Island that is correct and it won't affect the parking or the driveway that is correct that can be a condition of our approval okay um when did you decide to go down this path uh actually you know at the last meeting um there seemed to be a lot of concern and discussion about what would happen in the future and we because we don't know when if and when 10 was going to be um is going to be widened and when we tried to push the sign back at the 49 foot height with a 14 by 48t sign the sign start to get clipped by the back of the building and so we and it seemed like the board was really concerned about it so we're back so how can we address this concern today push it back now no matter what happens we'll be ready for it when dot comes and so we looked at moving the sign back and we looked at trying not to raise the height and we went to what would be the smallest size that we can Market our sign as a bulletin which is important in adver in the advertising world to a 12x 42 which is a 500 square foot sign versus the 672 it's a 25% reduction in the overall square footage of the sign and so that's why we did it we we're trying to be it seemed like there was a lot of concern at the last meeting even though we were willing to commit as a condition we would do whatever we need to do to get out of Dot's way because the last thing we wanted to do was to interfere with the widening process because wi stud this is very important to the town so that we sat down and worked with our s with our advertising department and tried to figure out how can we make this work to address this concern and that's how we did it so again my question was when did you make this decision it was made sometime after we had the last hearing and probably until sometime in early January I guess I have a question here from Mr Sullivan procedure here this sounds like a substantial change to the application and I would have thought that plans revised plans would have been into the board 10 days prior to the well it's it's not required that subsequent revisions to the plans be in 10 days before the board can request that because the professionals may need to review those things but my understanding is there's going to be an exhibit presented tonight is that correct we do have an exhib to present and and candidly If This Were increasing if the Delta were increasing the relief I think that's something that's right for 10 days following and review this is a full mitigation from the prior conditions and it's exactly what we discussed so um substantial in a positive way if anything if you're asking me can the board take action based on what's being discussed I would say yes so just so I'm clear sign dimensions are now 42 ft by 12 ft 12T in height 42t in width yes sir and previously they were what 14t in height 48 ft in wi the apron is the same apron stays the same so you're basically just raising the bottom of the sign that so we don't have to raise the top of the sign so it doesn't get blocked by the building that's correct and it results in a 25% reduction in the overall size I just say a few words I don't know any more questions on what we just talk about your attorney to walk you through yeah yeah good Jeff we've got a rendering we're going to show you it's a photo Sim we're going to show you shortly we can pass around the site plan exhibit sheet Jeff go ahead please yeah I just wanted to say look at at the first hearing when we came here um there was some concern there really some concerns about traffic safety um and we had our traffic expert come at the next hearing laid out why this sign is not create adverse Traffic Safety impacts and um the board's uh Traffic Safety expert har M agreed with our expert uh and really Traffic Safety uh so we've addressed it and it's really something that's at this point uh given that digital signs have been in New Jersey for over 15 years there's no place I'm aware of in New Jersey where it's ever been traffic so I think we've addressed that there were there were issues raised at the first hearing about lighting uh the board asked us to go back do some additional studies and and we had our our liting expert come back in the second day and and I believe addressed all of the concerns regarding uh illumination um and then we had the NJ do issue which we just talked about initially we offered to to move everything back if required now we're just doing it uh proactively and as a result we are reducing the size of the sign um and we've gone through all the uh explanation as to how we're doing that um uh other thing I I wanted to talk about just very quickly because I think it it kind of gets lost since we talked about it very early on was the the really the public service messaging eer and emergency messaging components that are available for this digital sign uh we are we are we are offering uh as a condition of our approval that the town will be guaranteed a minimum of one8 one 8C spot on each side of this sign every other minute and I can tell you from experience that it's more likely going to be two spots will be available the vast majority of the time uh the emergency messaging that will be available and we'll provide protocols we'll work with your Communications officer whoever uh you choose where that actually overrides all of the advertising during an emergency um and we build into our advertising contracts if advertisers that we only guarantee 90% of the time to account for such emergencies uh a lot of municipalities uh really take advantage of this program particular particularly the public service messaging if we could just show a couple examples of it I think we have handouts to be up to A6 I believe Mike let me just check that I think you are correct thank you let's identify this I need so yeah so A6 um one two consist of eight eight eight pages um and so it's an eight sheet for the record it's the emergency and First Service First first responder announcements yeah this is yeah the first one you're seeing is an Amber Alert on that would be uh that would be used what we do is we typically set up a template with the municipality however they want they want their logo on there or their Crest or however they want to do it and then the large rectangle area in here is kept open and all we have to do is be notified of of that and within within really several minutes this ad can be can this display can be override overriding all commercial advertising on both sides of the sign Mr C what are we calling this sample Public Service emerle public serviceemergency messaging that's fine Mike it's an eight8 page deck I believe yeah and this is this is the first one is an emergency message the second one is just a public service announcement regarding smoke alarms um third is a is a page is a weather warning um about snowfall fourth page shows about a road closure and and number five is is a is a good public service this was done in Ramsey with our on R 17 they have a public farmers market and this helped promote that the farmers market was not doing well this actually helped um that that that market do better um the next one is in uh in Oakland New Jersey uh This was done during uh Co when they couldn't celebrate graduations because was shut down and so we put a public service message for the high school uh graduating class of 2020 Haslett um has been one of the municipalities that's really taking a lot of advantage of the public service messaging program this this one shows about a a Haslet day um festival and then the other one is for the Haslet Swim and Tennis Club uh 2023 memberships uh this how they help they use this to help uh fill out their their pool the public pool that he sold out of in memberships in using our Public Service messaging so that's really some of the real good benefits of this and our art department is available uh to design copy for the municipality at no charge for Public Service as well as the emergency messaging um so that's the public service component um and this the last thing is just the the renderings regarding um the uh proposed reduction in sign size to 12 by 42 so let's just we'll mark this as A7 A9 right7 I'm sorry A7 it's entitled revise sign location it's a multi-page photo simulation deck it's got two sheets not including the cover page itself so three total right so what what what showing here is the sign now at a 12x 42 length and also 20 ft back from the uh Route 10 right away um and the first page shows the view of the sign as you're heading westbound on 10 um and you'll note there's a yellow little thin yellow pole towards the to the left towards the back of the sign that that's the marking of the back of the sign uh and where the hither sign would be uh set at to to the bottom of the sign face which would be uh 37 ft not to the not to the bottom of the apron and then the other uh the other page shows the heading to eastbound the route 10 sign at the 12 by 42 sign 12 by 42 and that's that's just a it's smaller 25% smaller than what we had originally proposed and this was located clear out of the right of the simulations correct yes it's it's it's set back consistent with the 20 foot uh set back from the 10 right away we we now amended our application to do Mr chair members we'll give you folks a few minutes to go through that that deck both of them and and certainly Mr ger was available for any questions you folks might have we do have the site plan sheet we can pass around as well um again it's a mitigation the prior conditions it looks very similar to the prior iteration with minor differences primarily the setback from through 10 Street side and the sidey yard and the sign side which is a significant difference yeah you can it's on there no I so is that another exit that's coming no we certainly passing around we have the site plan so what's coming around now is a revised sheet and dynamic engineering revision dat of today January 22nd 2024 site plan sheet number three and it dep picks the modified site layout of the billboard sign dimensioned as we described today showing the shifted location the reduce size and the modifi set be a A8 yes about how high will the support be off the ground like I had 17 ft initially what is it how high how high would what be the support of the sign the pole yeah well not the pole but this the thing that it like sits in whatever the brace well you're going to have maybe I can go from the top of expl the top of you have a 12x 42t display F right below that is a 3ot apron and then below that would be a 30 34t pole okay so that's the 49 ft 34 ft for the pole 3 ft for the apron 12 ft for the um I see okay so okay you have a couple extra copies of these can you just say that one more time I understand where the 49 so you have the 49 and then tell me how big the apron is okay so starting from the top going to the bottom 12T sign face rectangle right three foot apron okay and then a thir 34 got it okay so that 12.3 is 15 and the 34 get you to 49 okay got it thank you out shows for the 32t 34's sheet sheet that is that that that should be 34 that's a scrier error yeah 34 is what it should be yes that's correct thank you so it st9 that's correct questions from our professionals the testimony where it's A6 A7 or A8 question yes on the hand out with the uh a signage that a sample of the signage that could be used implemented for the municipality um you know I think that's it's a very good thing to do I would just note something on the samples that were handed out many of the signs have three and four lines of message if we look at something like the Ramsey Farmers Market there's a lot of line work there a lot of uh Legend there a driver driving along an or so to see and he'll draw the driver's eye uh and you know from the roadway for a long period of time I think the interest of safety there's a lot of message that signs that are implemented topal should be kept simpler with fewer lines of message I think you can see if you look at the Ramsey you look at what was on the first one you could readily pick this up in advance something like that you see for Ramsey maybe beneficial for the market it's just a lot for somebody to read and you won't pick it up at a glance and driver's Mr Ms these these messages would be generated by the bur so I'm just pointing you're just making thatare for safety reason that's the only reason I think it's a good idea okay just to be clear can I ask question just to be clear har because even the last testimony from yourself and from from the the traffic expert they had CU we we asked about that was your eyes were going up and back up and back you're sitting there reading the thing right I mean that was the testimony and I think you agreed to it yes I was thinking of a sign like okay but that's fine because again that's up to our choosing but I just wanted to make sure because that was a study of yes the digital and the and the takeaway from that was that it's safe yes okay I understand what you're saying yeah uh that one exhibit when you're looking uh Route 10 you're looking Eastbound and you have you have the photo s of the sign yes does that sign itself get clipped off by the building or no just it almost no it looks very closer but it's sitting right on top it doesn't get clipped now um I believe your traffic engineer last time spoke that in terms of being distracted look at the billboard and look back it was like A3 second delay something like that uh it might even been a little bit less than that but he said that it only takes a very very short period of time to read and digest a message EXC me sir you have to speak closer to that oh I'm sorry there's stuff on top of it too yeah um okay yeah um he said it was a very short period of time may have been3 may have been a little bit less than that but it's it's a very quick glance to digest the message now again um when I look at this and I compared to what was presented previously that sign is 14 feet more off the road right so your attention is diverted more to the peripheral by 14 more feet as as you look at this right it is it is I'm not I can't speak to a traffic safety aspect of this um but by pushing that sign back 14 ft it's not pushing that far back off the road it's not that we're able to do this the whole point of this if this was couldn't be easily read the sign would not be from this from a pure advertising standpoint wouldn't be viable um it it has to be easily ready for to to be economically viable and that's we have no concern about being pushed back 14 ft total of 20 ft off the off the right of way of it's not we built we have built signs that are 150 ft off the right away yeah so that's something you could testify to a Comm so relatively speaking is this far off the right of way where you're looking to the right more than other signs you've implemented around the St or elsewhere it's one of the closer signs to the right away sign a lot of sometimes are 50 ft some are 150t um some are 20 some are some are are are 5T um but this is by this is certainly within the the realm of of a typical Outdoor Advertising s in my 30 years experience of being involved in the industry um is it typical to have so much uh interference with the overhead wires in front of your sign like this exhibit shows uh yeah it happens I mean you have you have on on on a road such as rout 10 you have power lines along it that that is correct but regard it's not something as atypical I believe we produced um some s we pictures some other signs we had with the board that showed just that that's all I have Mr chairman please I have nothing right now thank you Mr chair questions from board members testimony this witness this evening the exib I do a question who are some of your uh larger advertisers um couple large categories would you talk larger like large companies yeah like who would advertise New Jersey Manufacturers insurance State Farm Insurance uh hospitals tend to be a pretty big category uh for us in in the large category then we have more Regional local would be restaurants Jewelers those are really type of of advertisers in our signs and we have asked for requested to be a condition of our approval that there'll be no inappropriate copy we provided language there's going to be no gentleman clubs on this sign there's going to be no copy that anyone's going to be offended by um you know and listen sometimes you you it happens by mistake I'll give you an example we we built a sign on a seek temple in Lawrence Township and McDonald's advertised on the sign hamburger which was offensive and they called us up and said this is really offensive to us we just took the copy down and moved it elsewhere it wasn't in our lease it wasn't in our condition of our approval but that's what we would do as a company we care about the community we do work in we want to get along with everybody so that's really kind of our corporate philosophy How are um how are advertisements fed to the sign excuse me how are advertisements fed to the sign I assume it's remotely it it's done it's done through through our office in Cherry Hill but it can also it also can be done by we also have um our signs are monitored by our digital sign provider watchfire and they they can control that to if there's a problem there a malfunction they can turn it off immediately things like that you ever had any cyber incidents that have impacted either the ability or the content of the no we we actually uh with the last few years have like a double pass code where it has to come back to either computer the person's cell phone is very difficult our insurance company required us to make it very difficult so no we've never had a problem all years is there a battery backup to this system in case the power goes down battery back up yes no so the power's out the sign's up that's correct uh hold a second uh more questions for done yeah uh first question is about the the signage itself is it a static picture that is correct there there's no movable no motion motion is motion motion uh there is no motion on this sign and it is prohibited by the New Jersey Department of Transportation they would revoke our permanent we had motion on the S thank God I will mention some other thing with to previous discussion um there was a a reference to that that intersection being reworked and things improved since then I'll call your attention to the fact that that work was done in the par Cy side in fact our side the traffic figures have shown an increase in accents at that site actually sir when our traffic expert testified he provided traffic numbers that showed the office I think was after 2019 the numbers dropped and dropped consistently I suggest you talk to our Police Department well as the numbers I've seen they're increased yeah and I can tell you that the the data came from not just the municipality but the state as well all available data and it was concurred by Mr malz um the data was real and objective it was reduction year-over-year including obviously the co year but it was reduced since that pattern had changed and it's in the traffic report that the board has available the data as well as the sources and the numbers and also I point out too that the do in issuing the state permit does a safety reval they're the ultimate experts it's their roadway um I understand and issued us a permit for that understand Mr do you have any other questions of this witness there'll be an opportunity to make a statement after the direct testimony is done thank you questions members of the public witness testimony it's 8678 again this is just questions of this yeah I have some questions um Frank dretler seven Greenwood Road Mars Plains Leon um are you sure that the sign is 20 ft away from any any uh so the right away now that we that another Lane we put in there yes the land reservation for the future Widing is 12 ft wide y so we're going from 12 additional 8 ft and that is to allow the power company requires a 10-ft separation from the relocated overhead utility lines to the front edge of the sign and that's what's that's what's driving the 20 foot setback from the existing so the 20 ft is the edge of the sign correct the poles are farther in yes okay if you went over all these numbers and I don't have anything to look at uh give me the sign the sign is how toall sign is is going to be a toall no how how far off the ground are you oh from the what from the bottom of from the ground to the bottom of the sign from the ground to the bottom of the sign would be 30 4 feet no the bottom 34 feet that's how high the sign is 34t no from the from the ground to the bottom the sign is 34 from the ground to the top of the sign would be 49 ft okay so that's 15 ft as a sign well the sign is 12 feet of advertising area display area and then a 3ot apron okay and it is how wide it is 42 feet in length 42t yes that's correct sir okay and both sides are are displayed is that correct that is correct okay um there was some questions I didn't quite get it about safety have you spoken to our police chief about any uh traffic problems there uh I I personally did not speak to the police chief now but our our tra our Traffic Safety expert did collect all the accident data going back I think to 2017 from our police chief I don't know if it was just the police chief or do or both um but I thought he got a pretty comprehensive uh data on that area if I could just jump in we did get a report from the chief that was dated October 28 2022 uh after reviewing the application I have no comments or concerns at this time that wasn't a question the question was did you speak to him about any that's my question answer I I did not our traffic consultant reviewed all the data and if part of his expert review would have included Consulting with the local Municipal chief he would have done that but they normally go right to the state because that's the full repository of all the data it's not always collected at the local level or the county level but I think it would be incumbent on the board to have a a itics from our local Chief because I don't always find in my experience that you always get correct data from the state I have been out there and there have been accidents not only the police the roads been closed the fire department's brought out and we should make sure that that doesn't happen greater it today I guess is the concern and that was the punch line and conclusion of our experts analysis and your own expert of the burrow agreed well but I but you you have state data I'm not convinced that you have local data and that's I think incumbent for the board to make a a a a clear decision uh it's not just you know have the data people have to go out there you never know what happens when someone else doesn't when they stop people don't stop thank you questions members of the public yeah reminder name and address cor Bill Houston 8 glenberg Road um the so the height the total height of the sign is 49 ft right from ground to the top yeah it's the it's the same height that we originally proposed and reason we got into the discussion of height was because of the concern of moving the sign back for the future widening of Route 10 the the building at the prior size of the sign did clip did clip did clip the back of the sign by making it going from 14 feet to 12 feet it just gets over top of the build okay when you uh or when your team did those surveys are there are there any other structures that are higher than that sign in that area um I didn't go out and check and see whether there's other buildings I think they're on the buildings that are 42 feet or higher okay um but I didn't I can't I'd be guessing I didn't some ask either me you're providing testimony so I heard conflict the information you haven't been out there you know I have not measured and I think I really can't answer that question that's that's probably proper Le proper answer okay so I guess my question is to your knowledge would that structure be the tallest structure in that area I have no idea you don't know I don't know okay um the the the concern right that I have is um let's just keep the questions at the moment there going to be an opportunity in short order to make a statement if you choose to do absolutely um okay I have no other questions though thank you I have another question how many accidents your data show in the year I we can't test we can't testify to the report Mr Dressler you prepare the traffic report it's in the record was testified to completely at the prior public hearing Mr ger is not aware of these raw numbers himself nor did anyone recall what the prior hearing said I just remember that the numbers went down from 2017 until 2022 the numbers went down because there was a restriping of Route 10 that was t of of our traffic expert but I don't recall the exact num wasn't time it was after included but before we do they're in filed reports that are on F already in the record it's thata was all provided I wasn't here so I don't know you don't have to get about questions for members of the public none Mr chairman that's all we heard you've heard our our full compliment of witnesses throughout the course of these three public hearings you've heard from Mr Gerber at length at the beginning at the conclusion of the hearing you're you're not going in a closing statement are you no it's going to be very brief our closing statement I mean I think I just want to um open up to members of the public for comment com certain certainly so I will open the floor to the members of the public who wish to make comments on this application okay okay would you raise your right hand you SAR to tell the truth in the matter pending before the board I do again just give us your name and address pleas Houston um i' I've uh I should have I think I should it last time this here um I don't see the inherent benefit of this sign to moris planes to the community Morris ples um I understand that the there are there are options to um you know display uh business information there um but I I just don't see the inherent or financial benefit more um so it's my opinion that um something like this uh while it's great for advertising and while it can um you know I'll just say it's good for advertising um I don't I don't see the benefit to the residents more um it's my opinion uh but like I said I said it before and that's kind I comments part of the meeting the FL is yours proposing statement thank you Mr chair I just want to thank the board say something Sor let me just would you raise your right hand to you swear to tell the truth of the matter pending before the board I do to state your name and business address please Donald solo zoning officer thank you I just would like to see clarification on this numbers issue that's happened the traffic up there has been a real problem particularly in the last year and I think that's a serious issue in this case so I would think want to get more clarification from our own Police Department this matter anybody else okay we now close it thank you again Mr chairman and members we appreciate your time throughout the course of this hearing you've heard us for several hours of testimony and we do thank you for that time this is going to be very brief Mr chairman and members um relatively simple proposal here there's not much by way of development here it's a billboard on a poll the issue is the use variance relief we have here for the use itself and the height and there's ancillary bulk relief as well you've heard testimony from Mr Gerber the CEO of Interstate at length that testimony was inclusive of the fact that these are developed all over the country by Mr Gerber compan Interstate they're developed successfully they're developed safely they're developed in concert with municipalities throughout the country and there's the benefit of the public advertising component that we discussed in Prior hearings and tonight there's the guaranteed public advertising that will be provided to the municipality there would be guaranteed protected content that will be provided by the applicant where it won't be any content that would be offensive can you speak into them sure there is the guarantee and assurance that there won't be any content that would be mood or offensive by way of what's being proposed and it's being developed by a Class A billboard developer Interstate outdoor who knows exactly how to do this and they do it very well for many many years they're coming here with the benefit of a DOT permit already in hand which is the typical case that you would have the dot has to vet and approve these locations as well that involves safety reviews of the do level then we come to the municipality and we came here with not just the basic site plan showing you what is going where but we came here with a traffic study that is dated about 11 months ago that's been on file with this board since February of 2023 from simoff engineering we've got the benefit of the Municipal Police Chief saying there are no concerns with this development and after testimony based upon this traffic study by Mr simov your own traffic consultant concurred that he agrees there are no safety concerns this does make sense this is a viable development at this location the only Delta that's changed between the prior public Hearing in this one is the size and that's changed because we've heard the board's comments concerns as to a sizing and height the heights remain the same we're not going up as we thought we would need to do we don't need to slide it back later as we thought we might need to do if the eventuality comes to pass the dot in fact does widen this we are making all of those adjustments now on a macro level so that this is in a proper location it remains at the same height and in fact the sign face is reduced by 168 ft total which is about 25% of a reduced area from the sign that you folks saw at a prior public hearing this boort is going to get the benefit like we've been talking about a lot of the announcements as well as the emergency announcements that is a tremendous benefit to the community for this billboard um you've heard planning testimony supporting the positive and negative criteria on the D relief as well as the bulk relief for Mr MCD at prior hearings we've gone through the site design at length as well we talk about the lighting sources confirming no improper lighting output at different locations where it shouldn't be this is a very very modernized development of billboards and advertising that the communities need and want and you heard tonight just few minutes ago Mr Gerber testifying a lot of the providers who want to be on here they're insurance companies they're medical providers they're hospitals this is important information and this is still a very very relevant way to get that information out there this is a location that we think is a perfect site for this Mr McDon testified to that the bulk relief is very slight which I think is also a testament to the fact that this does fit and work here and overall we think that there's a lot of benefit to the community and the public here with very very little risk if any and I take you back again to the safety reviews that were undertaken by Mr simou who's been doing this for decades as an expert in traffic engineering and he said there are no concerns with development at this location as proposed and all professional expert Consultants who have appropriately weighed in on this have concurred with him throughout and that's where we are here tonight Mr chairman with a leaner project than we were two months ago it was a good project then we think it's a better project now and again I want to thank you folks for your time and deliberation this evening and with that Mr chairman we turn it over to you folks to consider the matter thank you and before we do that I'm going to ask for some guidance for Mr Sullivan let's figure out who can vote and if you would explain why we need a super majority here okay so this is an application that involves two D variances and I'm going to go through them all the variances in a minute but let me just ask Karen um who's eligible to vote on this application everyone is eligible except the two ultimates but since Mr E isn't here Mr R is first so so Mr TI and I'm sorry about that pronunciation uh is uh is not he can participate in a discussion but he's not eligible to vote remaining seven board members are eligible to vote because there's two Deb baranes involved you need five affirmative votes in order for this to be approved um let's just go through what I think the relief are so Mr KY can jump in think that there's some modification of that necessary there's a D1 variance with a number of components the use is not permitted in the office building District zone uh constitutes more than one principal structure on a lot and is not access accessory to a use located on the premises so there's there's a D1 component here there's a D6 variance because the height is 49 ft where a maximum of 35 ft is allowed there is a front yard step back variance of 20 ft where a minimum of 75 ft is required there is a request for an easterly side setback of 55 ft for a minimum of 75 ft is required as well as an exception to permit illumination levels in excess of 0.5 foot candles along the Northerly and easterly property lines I think you captured it all all that said um again we typically review conditions of approval if it headed that way and that is not a presumption that it's headed to approval but if you would talk about the conditions that you've documented so far okay I the would be subject to our standard conditions as well as those stipulations that the applicants met made in the record including things like offering the municipality u a a 8 seconds every other minute on each side of the sign for public service and emergency messaging uh also there was a restriction on the for example just there's no gentleman's club no inappropriate content we'll call the language out of the minutes and and the record to if we get to a resolution on that part um I I believe the applicant would have to go back and get a revised NJ doot permit also um Mike I don't mean to cut you off but the emergency advertising could be any time and and there's no time limitation the 8C flip every two minutes is for for advertising the public service announcement the emergency yeah no client Club maybe you said emergency also as part of that that's so that's so that's that every the 8C spot every other minute is is exclusively public service that is correct yes the emergency is when needed as needed so all commercial advertising goes away and it's just the emergency broadcast that is correct how long does that last uh we need to work out the protocols with your communications director but it's typically 24 hours is a typical time if it needs to be longer it will be longer so in other words if the railroad underpass was flooded that's something that locally happens here it's a big deal for us you can put that up on the billboard and that would stay there for as long as the underpass was flooded correct yeah I just don't want short Change yourself Mike with that condition that's why yeah no then we have like I said in addition to our standard conditions I don't have anything else Le do you have anything else um off the top of my head M Mr Kelly just clar ific you said two minutes but it's really one right the PSA is 8 seconds every other minute every other minute yeah that's the minimal that's the minimal guarantee we I believe there'll be more time than that for sure so it's time for board members to deliberate on the record in in front of everybody we Talk Amongst ourselves the puts and the takes and then we'll have a motion one way or the other and we'll go through process does anybody want to open with any comments for or against this application I would to say that the um Harley-Davidson building at one time was a derelict Factory building and the owners of that property did a very nice job renovating property you can't hear me I'm sorry iPlug um at the time we were very strict with the signage that we let Harley-Davidson um now we approve um I think that when I asked about what kind of advertising would be on the sign it's conflicting to our businesses that are on that road we're seeing State Form B is right there we're seeing a jeweler our Jeweler right there that's one of our business districts and I think we'd be taken away from their signage we want people to stop and and frequent our businesses um we don't know who's going to be advertising this time so I don't know if I'd want to have my business there and have even harleydavidson dealer what if somebody wants to have reti Honda or yamama I maybe they don't care but I'm just saying um I think it's conflicting it's also not only a business area more expain it's one about business districts it's also residential Harrison Headley Davis I'm not sure if those residents want to use that as a landmark saying you see the big sign you know the next right is my street I just don't feel it fits the area I think it's too big and it's what I think yeah I I disagree I I think that it it's a commercial throughway and it's there so we heard testimony on the traffic safety I got to go by the experts I'm not a traffic expert so I heard what they said uh the police chief had an opportunity I'm not saying he could have should have whatever but he didn't uh the public good it's it's clear the place we're putting it is spot on because it's a commercial throughway um I I just it it's going to you know anybody can anybody can hardly can put up a sign of this if they wanted to you know that Jeweler could put up a sign if they wanted to it's not going to detract from them in my opinion I think it's it's beneficial the fact that we can get you know something like the swim team you know Swim Club is going to be up there putting that information up there I I just see this as you're looking at Route 10 it's it's that's what it's there for and you know the signs are all over the place I see them I see them all over and you know to me it's I think the testimony and the accommodations that the applicant was making tried to take into consideration what we were saying as a board so from that perspective I think I I do think it it no I'm good with it I would reiterate what Mr M said as well I love the opportunity for the burrow to be able to advertise in emergency situations or public service announcements there's no no reason why every business in Mars PLS can't fill that advertising space and time everybody are just assuming you know that nobody mois PLS is going to advertise and maybe they won't they have the opportunity to okay um and to benefit a sign that would just benefit Morris pl's residents to me is a foolish statement U it benefits it can benefit mois planes residents and I think it will if moris planes uses it to their advantage so I I I'm I like it I I have to say I I guess I still have questions you know I I've had the good fortune and the honor really to serve this board for 17 years and planning board before that and any commercial application the sign was an issue we have very specific very prescribed sign ordinances in this town right because bigger isn't always better you know we're a small town I think in the in the district down here we try to keep the sign smaller if you look at the imagery that was given to us as as part of the exhibits the signs are small smaller and they're supposed to be consistent with the businesses that are there and as I look through the images that we got this sticks out right higher bigger you know but not necessarily better than everything else that's around there and I think about you know what was the intent when our ordinances were created this clearly wasn't intended right it it's not a prescribed use there that's why they need a variance and I don't know that you know putting this here and and that becoming kind of the you know the visual aesthetic of what you see because when you you look East you know in the condition where it's not there you don't see anything this this becomes everything that you see and that's great from an advertising perspective but in terms of advancing our Municipal ordinance and benefits to the town I don't know that I'm convinced yeah I hear you I mean if this was on downtown I would agree with you it's on Route 10 but look down the rest of Route 10 and those other images there's none anywhere else there yeah but as you drive through 10 like on Kohls the signs are much bigger they got bigger you know their static sign but it's just I I think anybody has the opportunity to post a even a fixed billboard that's not flashing red lights at and stuff to advertise and as you're driving down Route 10 there's not one sign that captures your attention there's several plus the fact that it's a split second that you read that and you're not going back to it I I've done this several times on rout 10 going to Wharton where I drive by that big flashing sign at Pelican ski resort okay and I tell you I can look at it and still see still see the highway it's such a split second that I can read it it's amazing how much information you're picking up with that Split Second I don't I mean if there were moving pictures might be a different story but it's just one message and your eyes are back on the road and I think that that tells me a lot about the fact that it's not the distraction that we some people think it is okay and the fact that you know we live in a free market society and I think that if you have a business in let's say Far Hills okay and you want to advertise on Route 10 that's your prerogative you know that's your prerogative to do so and if it takes business away from Mars Plains then they have to reassess where they spend their advertising dollars I don't such a problem with the advertising or what's Happ yes oh I'm sorry I'll get closer uh I travel on 287 every day to work and there's the sign there by the um itis or whatever and I just glance at it every once in a while there'll be something up there that I'm interested in looking at and it's a quick Lance but this is much closer much closer to the roadway whereas that one you're seeing it much it's a far a farther stepb my concern is that people are going to be looking at it a little bit more because of the proximity and even looking up as they get closer to it whereas you're not really seeing a distance my concern is is with the application is that the traffic sa the traffic engineer presented the diagram of the sight line of the as you're coming down Route 10 and that sight line was squarely in the merg lane of canw drive so your your goal viewing is is people who are merging onto 10 or people who should be looking to make sure people are merging safely on to Route 10 so if they're sharing their view of people watching people merge or looking up at a sign um again I'm not a traffic engineer but I I remain concerned that um you're competing for the viewing of people at a critical time when when people emerging onto rout 10 now I just go back to you know you got to r on the experts don't I wish I had more than four years of of traffic a to look at though you know was it wasn't yeah but 20 years two of them were during Co I can give you data for the past 10 days we've had two accidents past the sign depends on time of the day no but yeah but depending on when the traffic is backing up the light it depends on what look were they looking at other signs in theing I'm just telling you guys days but are they at the sign no but I I think the question is you know what precipitated the accident right I don't know every once data so in the past 10 days we have responded to question but can we attribute that to the fact they were distracted by a sign I don't think you can do that but if you add one more distraction to the mix is the question so if you have a dangerous area and you had you're adding one more potential distraction to the mix you're not alleviating anything you're potentially making it worse but I think I think you need to take a look at the fact that these signs are prevalent throughout New Jersey and other states and I don't think we're the only ones concerned with traffic safety here in New Jersey and so I might my logical thinking tells me that if it had been a problem it would have been highlighted you know in these other locations that I just you know I I don't think we'd allow a public safety hazard to to to grow like this right and continue to have the advertisers put up new signs everywhere there would have been big protests about hey this is not working this is causing serious problems I mean we we're probably more effective than the FDA in in regulating what happens on the roadway knowing whether something's dangerous or not I think that's what we're speaking of today yeah like we know what's distracting what's not does our Z not say that the sign on the property has to be consistent with the operation on the property the sign the sign a a sign has to be accessory to a use located on the premises you're asking for Rel and that's one of the components of the D1 variant that they're asking for the advertising sign is not permitted and it also constitutes more than one principal structure on a single lot so I'm going use that as a seg offer my opinion um before I do before I offer my opinion I want to um State for the record um as part of this application I've driven up and down Route 10 during the day at night I've parked in Harley-Davidson at during the day at night Liberty Gas day and night and in mini mall next door day and night walked theide looked for my car actually think I ran into you guys in November um under the under the sign you might so um I want to stipulate a few things I I have no concerns about the competency of the operator for the record um I have no concerns about their program to control content I find that to be satisfactory um I think that um the moving of the sign to coexist with do improvements was a good move um it was responsive to the board's site size concerns and one the number one thing I learned is that how much more effective the lighting is on this compared to a traditional static Sonic right that glare of spotlights um versus the the the the bent light as it were however I'm going to go back to um the D1 and the D6 variances so the burrow of Morse planes does not permit these so this is a D1 variant so it's a big lift it's the heaviest lift um required or described in the ML and I actually think this does um harm to the local properties and I'll explain why as well as to the Burrow's um zoning ordinance so I'm going to be silent on Traffic Safety because I just don't know I I'll tell you my one regret is not refreshing the police chief's October 2022 report in hindsight I wish I asked for refresh I didn't um so when you come down Route 10 this will be the first thing you see so I'm looking at exhibit um A5 from November 27th Photo 5 and this is an aerial drone from the subject sign height looking West and it proves the point I made to myself that as you come out of parcion and you're on the downhill and you make the turn this will be the first thing you see and the reverse view proves this and this so when I when I saw this number five I really really I'm impressed now is that the first is that what Mor PL wants to have as its Gateway um zoning ordinance doesn't permit it I would vure know when the Harley-Davidson was in front of this board it was already an overcrowded site and signage variances were granted with kind of that last one on the diagonal thrown in at the Fairly last minute um so we've already got a site that is undersized for the building that's on there and I know was an existing building and has too many signs um there's a sign variance for the mall next door for for for um uh for size when I when I sit in the mall parking lot and I look up at what would be 49 ft High I I I find that the feel of it detrimental to the quality of the space on that site I think that it does do harm to the neighbor um and as you see at at the Harley-Davidson site and you look up the hill and down the hill you see two and three buildings at most all the way up all the way down so this is equivalent to four almost five stories so it is not the tallest structure the tallest structure in my um drives is the cell phone tower behind 2200 um Route 10 West that's on the pany side but that is an unlit relatively thin cell phone tower um this thing will be lit all the time at night um further casting light on that over the property line even though it's a little bit it makes it worse um so I think from a height perspective this is daunting inconsistent with the uh what the burrow plant contemplates through its zoning ordinance and um frankly is a use that that wasn't not thought about it's just it's not permitted specifically and um in the 2018 update it was not contemplated as the as the governing body and planning board have amended the board the uh zoro's zoning the Burrow's zoning ordinances including and overlay it shows that it keeps on thinking about what's in the ordinance and they've not put this use in there as approved so for those zoning reasons not safety reasons for those zoning reasons I I can't support the long with it sorry so um I've heard disagreement among board members which is great because it shows that we think and it was all respectful it comes down to a vote the vote begins with a motion is there a motion to do something and I don't presume that there's a motion to approve nor a motion to deny some to make a motion I'll make a motion we approve it is there a second Mr Mr MCC Mr M Mr M is there a second second Mr car seconds can I ask the Mover and the second that would include the conditions that I articulated earlier yes and so again it's the it's all those variances that identified and preliminary and final s plan approval and it does require five yes votes roll call please okay Mr Baza no Mrs Cortez no Mr car yes Mr MC yes Mr Webster no Mr Schultz no Mr Riso no okay the the motion failed to achieve the five affertive votes so it constitutes it and this action requires a resolution to memorialize the board's action on the application for the record this memorialization will be on the agenda of the regular February thanks for your time folks Thank you new business um we need a vol here all right uh Mr par going to excuse himself U new business is there a volunteer for the 2022 annual report I'll volunte right thank you m Cortez any other new business old business all right um with my thanks for thoughtful and resp respectful deliberations you don't say that all the time board members than apprciate is there a motion to adjourn so move second all in favor 1021