##VIDEO ID:AYoVpvb2FFY## it's called to order the special meeting of the Mars Township Board of adjustment for September 30th uh 2024 uh the legal notice required in accordance with the open public meetings act has been satisfied and a statement certifying same will be executed please join United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God IND withy andice for all yes Mr chairman uh Mr Goldberg here Mr TR here Mr Williams here Mr Schuster here Mr benois here Mr Kramer here Mr wford here Mr oler here Mr Hansen here Mr Fishinger here Mr Phillips here and N Santiago here recing in okay business is the continuation on the SL application yes Mr chairman Frank folo SS C and gross on behalf of the applicant and opposition counil Michael your honor King Bob mcbrier of our firm fortunately is quite ill and so I have been drafted replin speak so I think we left off you were going going to be cross-examining uh the uh uh Witnesses yes Mr chairman the objective yes so witness going the hydrologist or the planner I would like to begin with the planner okay there he is yes he's here he's here [Applause] good evening everyone good evening good evening Mr pesano would you raise your right hand please you solemly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got I do okay Mr M oh Mr sorry thank you thank you Mr chairman good evening Mr pesano good evening Mr P this is this is my mic on the microphone is on Mr uh yes thank you Mr shall I sing no no thanks no thank you good answer Mr pesano you testified uh during the hearing the last hearing that in your expert opinion the use we are proposing here is multifam is that correct yes all right in fact you testified to that on page 112 lines 1 through three of the transcript um sir have you ever heard of the New Jersey municipal land use law of course I here all right in fact it's one of the sources that you relied upon in formulating your expert opinion in this case is that fair yes and would you agree with me sir that the ml is a comprehensive statute that governs land use Planning and Zoning in New Jersey it is okay how does the mlul Define multifam may I look it up no okay do you know I can't cite it from memory okay well I have it here for you if you look up on the screen this is the definition of multif family development from the New Jersey Administrative Code section 52-1 which sets forth the defined terms used in the ml um sir um if you'd like I'd just like to read you this definition it says development other than one or two family detached dwellings where the dwellings are arranged so that there are more than two units attached regardless of the presence of lot lines did I read that accurately I followed along I think you did okay so according to this definition you are incorrect that we are proposing multif family development in that case in this case is that correct sir I would disagree with that conclusion okay you disagree with the definition of mult family development in the code correct yes okay and so the definition you're using is from your own mind or is it somewhere written down from 40 years of practice as a licensed professional plan okay so it is from your head not from anywhere written down from my experience in practice all right thanks sir um sir can you please identify for me an example from this or any other jurisdiction in the state of New Jersey where the type of development proposed here was determined to be a multifam use I base my opinion on three or more dwelling units on a single parcel okay I'm gonna ask you again can you please identify for me an example from this or any other jurisdiction in the state of New Jersey where the type of development proposed here was determined to be a multif family use no this is an unusual development why would I have that thank you sir I assume that in light of the two questions I just asked you you're retracting your prior testimony that what we're proposing here is multif family correct absolutely not okay so I stand by my testimony okay 100% sure um sir you you also testified that um the zoning board approval in this case is akin to quote carving up Central Park in New York City do you recall saying that not those words okay well let's look at the transcript then page 106 lines 16 through 21 are you going to make me look at this transcript or you going to admit that you said that I have not seen the transcript so uh what do we do okay we're going to look at the transcript you got to give me a second then well you know what let me ask you this the picture you're seeing here on your screen does that look like something akin to carving up portions of Central Park in New York City I don't get the question well you you said it was like carving up Central Park my question to you is what you're seeing here which is part of the the sighted issue do you think that's like carving up a park- like setting sir I said just so that everybody can follow this dialogue um I said that um even Central Park U where there would be much pressure for development has preserved its beloved Central Park so the idea that people need more homes uh is not a basis for okay I guess deleting open space well you didn't say that so I'm G to look it up for you if you just give me a minute Mr chair sure I'm gonna look up this portion of the the testimony I have to stop share you're going to see all my secret thoughts and plans here oh I'm not sharing anymore okay okay let's look at here this is Page 106 okay lines 16 through 20 okay I'm ready sorry sorry Mr leakas I just want know if I'm permitted to object I don't I'm not represented by Council here you you you're allowed to ask questions if you are not represented by Council no objection you can't object to questions okay thank sorry okay here's what you testify to sir and I'm quoting this directly this is you speaking it is now part of the golf course why would it why would it considered available for land however Township authorization in my view to carve up this golf course for housing could set a disastrous precedent for future rounds of affordable housing potentially putting other open space government use open space on The Auction Block to be replac with housing even Manhattan with its constant pressures for more housing has left intact it's beloved Central Park retaining that open space serves the entire population rather than benefiting a handful of people of converting it to housing retaining this open space that we are talking about in this application in Morris Township would Ser serve that same important function so my question to you sir is you are analogizing this site to Central Park I was making an analogy correct right and but this site is nothing like Central Park sir admitted okay I'm going to go back to my my slides okay by the way that which you just read sounded a lot more like me than your prior characterization what I had said okay sir you also testified that placing homes so close to a golf course is quote foolish you remember that yes okay so I'm going to show you a slide here now these are homes on the golf course on the other side of Springbrook are the people living in these hom homes fools that's an unfair question okay are the people living in those homes fools still an unfair question are the people living on the golf course fools okay ask and answer Mr Council okay so you're not going to answer that question that's correct okay it's a ridiculous question sure and how about these people on Armstrong who live right on the golf course are they fools as as well same answer okay it's only sir the people that we're proposing to live in our homes that are foolish then is that what your testimony is I made no characterization of any human being foolish oh I said the idea was foolish and you know that oh so don't say to characterize my testimony as something that it is not not get argumentative let's ask questions keep so it's not foolish then to have homes on a golf course correct it's foolish to place these homes along a fairway okay and what about the homes along the Fairway there I wasn't evaluating them right but I'm showing to I'm showing them to you right now is it foolish to have those homes on The Fairway I'm not able to speak because you won't answer that okay let them answer before okay I'm sorry go ahead I did not evaluate those homes okay and looking at them now is it foolish to have those homes along the Fairway I did not evaluate those homes okay you also testified that stray golf balls would create quote safety risk you must have done some studies or simulations showing the impact of straight balls correct I happen to have been part of a GF course application that involved testimony to that very effect okay so in this case you must have done some studies or simulations showing the impact of stray balls from this project correct I did not do a study or a simulation all right so Mr Pisano you have done n no such studies you also testified that this project would quote constrain the realm of play for users of the golf course end quote you recall that yes okay did you speak to anyone at the club and I'm talking about the Spring Brook Club about how this project will quote constrain the realm of play for golfers I did not okay why not that was my own conclusion okay did you uh ask permission for the club to walk the course to understand the flow of play at this course I did not okay and you're not an expert in golf courses are you I am not okay do we even play golf I don't okay you testified quote from an aesthetic perspective the open views to largely natural surroundings would be ruined by the placement of a housing development in this location do you recall saying that sir yes can you please point me to the photographs and renderings that you produce in this case showing how views to natural surroundings will be quote ruined by this project you know that I did not submit an exhibit to that regard excuse me I did not submit an exhibit to that regard okay so you have zero evidence to support this opinion other than what's in your head sir is that correct again I'm asking him a different question rephrase the question please all right you have zero evidence to support that opinion other other than your years of experience correct my years of experience are very for formidable and they matter in this proceeding okay you testified that the traffic generated from this site will be quote especially impactful is that correct at the intersection with Mount Kimble yes okay how many trips per day are going to be generated by this site doesn't matter there will be new trips attributed to this land that aren't there now okay so it doesn't matter how many trips will be generated from the site yeah I think that's fair to say oh how many trips are going to be generated from this site I don't have the number okay and you're not a traffic expert are you no okay did the objectors you represent in this case retain a traffic expert they did not okay so and you're not qualified to give any opinion on traffic sir isn't that right that's not correct okay but you are so you are a traffic expert I'm not a traffic expert but when you work as a planner for 40 years you get to understand how traffic Works have you ever been qualified as a traffic expert in the state of New Jersey nope okay Mr pessolano you testified quote if the site is to be maintained and managed by this is another point if the site is to be maintained and managed by a management entity or a home owner association that is the mode that is proposed here both are prone to sudden widespread maintenance failures in which case a large track of very visible land could become a source of blight quite quickly and for extended periods do you recall that testimony can you please provide me with an example of a quote sudden widespread maintenance failure involving a property in Morris Township that has occurred over the last 100 years what is it with these examples that you seek from me as if it's necessary to to you please answer the question justify the opinion you answer the question I don't have examples thank you as you asked do you think the fine men and women of the Morristown zoning office owners of the golf course and neighboring property owners owners would allow this project to become blighted by sudden widespread maintenance failures let me explain the basis for my statement okay but can you answer the question I asked you I need to explain myself first sure for a period I served as a zoning inspector in a municipality the municipality riton Township hunterton County and part of my role was to um check on uh properties that were in foreclosure and at that time there were many and there were several situations where simply getting the bank to cut the grass took an entire season and it still didn't happen sometimes so when you have a single entity such as a homeowners association responsible for this 4.7 acres of land and the maintenance of its grounds if that organization or some part of it should fail then there can be a lengthy um and prolonged uh issue with getting the property to look better and that is based on my actual experience okay with those matters so your opinion in this case that the way that this property is proposed will cause a sudden widespread maintenance failure it might is based completely and totally on one experience you had in ridan Township with a bank is that correct no not one experience well that's the one you said many experiences um any experiences that you're aware of this happening in Morris Township I do not have that okay um you testified that the purpose of the application was to quote embellish the developer's own welfare do you remember that yes do you know of any private developer in history who did not try to make a profit from constructing a project profit it typically drives development projects yes right so that's not surprising sir is it not surprising okay and you sir here are not here pro bono are you that's correct all right you're being paid by the objectors to render an opinion in this case is that correct yes and without that payment you would not even be sitting here is that fair that's the setup can you show me the market study or the data that you relied upon supporting your opinion that there's no need for this type of housing in Morris Township can can the witness keep his voice up that sometimes it's not being picked up by the recording did I say there was no need for this type of housing can you tell me how and where I said that no oh so do you think there is a need for this housing maybe fair enough you're saying that this is an attempt to rezone the property is that correct yes in fact you said quote it's the wholesale rewriting of the Zone plan you remember that I did not say wholesale rewriting of the Zone plan I don't do not believe well you did say it but I mean if you want me to go back I can I can look at the words are you sure you didn't say it that's your call if you want to refresh me will to listen matter doesn't matter um you believe that it's a rewriting of the Zone plan correct I believe that it is writing zoning um differently than it exists about the benefit of the governing body's participation are you familiar with the the Supreme Court's decision of AMG Associates V Springfield Township I am not well that is the um primary case that deals with um a zoning board that was engaging in improper resoning and you don't you've never even heard of that case sir I answered the question Mr pesano do you know that the key analysis that one must undertake in determining if there's improper rezoning is an evaluation of the size of the tract itself the size of the track act in relationship to the size and character both of the district in which it's located and the municipality as a whole have you heard that before that standard I will say no you've never heard that before not read to me like that okay but you have you heard of the gist of what I said before I approach this with a common sense perspective uh relative to the subject property Mr pesano how many acres are in the OSG Zone Mr pessolano if I said 3378 acres does that sound close to you that sounds about right okay I was looking for Mr Phillips uh memo that's okay well OSG so how many acres is this site that we're talking about here uh total site is 29 acres and change how how large is the um site that we're looking to build the homes on about 4.7 Acres okay what percent of 3,378 acres is 4.74 Acres I think Mr Toby car characterized it as a fairly small number yes 0.14% doeses that sound fair to you I I won't dispute that okay Mr pesano can you tell us with a straight face that 0.14% of the total acreage in the OSG Zone just one tenth of 1% is enough to satisfy the standard set forth by the Supreme Court in the AMG case well it's a faulty question you're asking if I haven't reviewed the case how can I compare it to it okay what about the principle that I read you that you have to look at the size of the tract in relation to the total acreage of that zone in the in the entire town I'll tell you what I considered in making that remark my remark was based on the substantiality of the tract the substantiality of the loss of open space in that prominent location those impress me most in formulating my finding is it fair to say that you did not consider at all the fact that one just one tenth of 1% of the OSG property is actually being impacted here well one doesn't take into uh one's awareness the entirety of of all the OSG land in the township of Morris so what you're seeing in front of you at the moment when that is diminished by such a substantial amount that is what one sees and that's what I'm reflecting on in my evaluation okay and again you've never heard of this Supreme Court case AMG Associates fre sprinkle Township correct I'm not familiar with it okay sir um you alleged that in your testimony based on your now I think debunked opinion that this is a multif family project that there are nearly a hundred variances and waivers required that are not part of this application does that does that sound fair I cited them as departures from of the Zone Zone plan and zoning ordinance so do you believe that the township professionals missed all of those variances in their reports I don't okay well then how could you I don't understand do you think there were 100 variances that were missed or not I enumerated them uh extensively in my testimony um there was not an assertion that they should have been variances they were identified as deviations or departures in my testimony okay so none of them should have been variance in this in this case correct no but they had the characteristics of regulation of Land Development right uh and going by standards for that as is typically done in Municipal development day in and day out okay thank you Mr pesano I don't have any other questions you're welcome board members any questions to this Witness for professionals any questions of this sness yes before Paul goes I have one um good evening Mr pesano if and I don't have the transcripts in front of me so doing this more from memory in your testimony last time you talked about safety issues with having perpendicular parking along the road what was that comment based on uh was based on observing the um width of the roadway uh relative to the parking space and the sidewalk on the other side uh opposite the parking space across the roadway I thought the proximity of pedestrians uh to a backing vehicle possibly not being visible and at all times could be a a safety configuration and a poor safety configuration excuse experience is that a common occurrence to have vehicles backing out on across a a sidewalk on a residential street residential streets are typically wider paved Pathways than what is proposed in this development by my experience and observation and plan review experience so this is a more uh diminutive Road width and that's what raised the question in my mind in the first place and are there any studies or backup information that ties width of the road and backing out of a perpendicular space to crashes I base my opinion on uh hundreds of plan reviews throughout my career That's the basis of it I'm not a traffic that was my only question Mr chairman is what that was based on before we do second I just jump back into what Joe was just saying Joe do you think that the proposed roadway is unusually um narrow it is narrower than I me there is a small RSI except RSI exception so it is narrower than typical but in my opinion I've never seen any correlation between making the road a foot narrower versus the number of pedestrian crashes backing out of parking spaces I'm not aware of a a correlation of those two items there are sidewalks here would there be any correlation between backing out of a parking space like a visitor's parking space and uh incidents involving pedestrians walking on sidewalks do you have any information on that I don't have data to share with the board Phils yeah I have a couple of questions um have to slide up oh I don't think that's okay I um I think you testified that this application in your opinion amounted to a resoning and that this board uh didn't have the authority to reson and the matter belonged before the township committee um I just want to be clear you're not suggesting that this board does not have jurisdiction to hear this application are you uh no I'm not um you also opine that and I may be paraph racing but if approved that um other owners of osg's own land might look to convert some of their acreage to housing um and I guess I'd ask you wouldn't you agree that any matter that comes before this board basically stands the falls on the merits and that that would in no way be precedential I agree that precedent does not drive zoning board decisions generally speaking thank you um I think Mr Vito I think he asked you this but um I took notes from your testimony you I think you said that the homes were too close to the golf course and I would just ask is that based on any standard principle literature that would support that assertion um again just my exposure to the issue fairly recently uh regarding the rearrangement a golf green U at a a golf club in West Orange and they're were neighbors along the the edge of that Fairway who had golf balls Landing in their backyards uh at a distance farther from the the Fairway than what is proposed in this application but you're not suggesting that the distance between the the holes or the fairways in the homes is in violation of some accepted Golf Course design standard are you I'm not suggesting that Mr Phillips um and then just lastly I just want to understand your opinion on the multif family housing um you're saying that three or more dwelling units on a single parcel whether those units are attached or not constitute multif family housing is that your opinion yes you realize your opinion is not consistent with any accepted definition of multif family housing at least that I'm aware of I mean Mr vello cited the ml I can cite the the Mars Township luse ordinance I can cite the illustrated book of development definitions which we as planners as you're aware use as sort of the Bible or any other zoning ordinance that I've reviewed over my 40 plus year professional career so I just want to give you the opportunity to either change your opinion or reinforce your opinion that this constitutes multif family housing because I'm I just don't I just don't understand that opinion to be perfectly honest I would professional to professional I would need much more time to evaluate all those sources that you just uh enumerated so I'm not going to repine on those obviously but throughout my my career as a planner three or more dwelling units has stood uh and passed muster as a multif family use whether attached or not it's more than one or two dwellings whether those units are attached or not whether they're attached or not okay thank you that's all I have Mr chairman umon no any members of the public with questions of this witness yeah okay close the public board any board members based upon the question questions asked by the professionals have any questions of this witness it's less of a question than an observation okay um I'm not going to ask if you walk because you already said you didn't walk the property but if I were trying to establish that there was a risk of golf balls I would go out in the property and look for golf balls or tracks of people going to pick them up I that would be what I would do I did walk the area uh adjacent to the subject property and were there a lot of golf balls I the the vegetation was not such that it allowed discovery of golf balls off of the the manicured part of the greens it's natural vegetation today where the the proposed project uh lies so finding golf balls in those thickets just wasn't my mission okay a question how did you uh take into account um the um I guess the spring book kind minum uh and how far they are off the Fairway I think it's the fifth Fairway I I didn't look at those they're in a different zoning District you didn't take a look at the screening that might be in place there the white PES no uh also you indicated uh this was emphasized on Cross examination um that uh an ho way is can possibly fail if I miss I mismanagement and suddenly the pro whole development uh turns into a blight is that what you said something along those lines yes now um HOA is the accepted method of management for condominium associations is that correct yes so is that inherent in every Condominium Association it is so in your opinion no Condominium Association could ever be uh created I didn't say that I said there was risk of that happening here with the management that was proposed and the management is have you read the proposed bylaws I don't have a copy of those bylaws I don't know that they even exist and wouldn't they be consistent with uh other um homeowners associations probably I would expect so including uh a uh Capital Improvement uh fund or cap maintenance fund to replace items as necessary that's typically part of HOA Arrangements yes so if they're well managed financially there's not a problem when it's well-managed no problem but when it fails that's that's when it gets to be pretty dicey pretty fast but as far as you know you don't know of any example of any Condominium Association failing in Mars Township I am not aware of that okay any other questions from actually your example from rton Township where you were looking at foreclosures were those HOAs or were those individual owners they were individual bank-owned properties not I'm sorry not bank owned properties that are in foreclosure with banks having the jurisdiction for maintenance but but were any of them HOAs no my point is that a a bank it should be an upstanding organization in the community and if they drag their feet after repeated notices um the similar a similar thing could happen on a bigger scale with a single managed property single management entity I'm glad it doesn't happen all the time but the possibility does exist any other board members have questions board professionals there was a Mr chair there was a question about Mr banter about setting precedent um because about three months ago we had before us OSG uh zoning on Sussex Avenue I think it was so if we you're saying was your statement that this will not set a precedent well will it set a in my mind I think the most Bo M mind it will set a precedent okay so let me answer that okay I don't remember the prior case that you you're mentioning but every case that comes to this board stands on its own merits every piece of property is separate and apart from any other piece of property so whatever this board does with this application or whatever it did with any prior application does not set any precedent for you for this board board going forward the president I was speaking if I may to speaking to during my testimony was the idea of using open space property converting that to housing not the actual processing through the zoning board but the idea of it was the precedent that concerned me so you're saying there would be a you think of going forward precedent of turning OSG property into single family use exactly it's per in the OSG it is okay but again my testimony was that this was not single family it was a unauthorized uh layout of property okay uh for professionals any questions public yeah any members of the public have any questions based upon the latest series of questions do you wish make ask qu it's time for questions only it'll be a it'll be phrased as a question for the sure come on up Mr Le over to the microphone would you state your full name for the record please leis one Spring Road yes Mr leis question question you know just Bas on the the precedent uh issue here um just a fairness question fair to say that so far in this hearing although a precedent may not have been formally set when we're drawing comparisons to other developments like the springberg Condominiums it's certainly something that can be used to C to bolster uh an applicant's request correct I have seen that happen yes so I think just a moment ago uh we made reference to the spring Condominiums and their placement on the golf course and how golf balls may may interfere with that development and the screening involved although it's not a precedent you'd agree sir that it's C it's certainly something that can be uh um used to to to compare at least I I think it's used all the time in different ways uh by planning Professionals in particular who want to advance their application and they'll turn to evidence of something like what they're propos posing on the ground somewhere and do you feel that if this application is approved that it may although not being a precedent it may be some point of reference for other applicants uh to use yeah I object to the question sorry but that's just complete speculation and anything that this board does is not precedential for any future application okay should I re ask the question if it's as long as it's not speculative um with regards to um the springb condominium do you know where uh and I think we're referring to the existing Condominiums uh that are on the fifth uh hole Fairway do you know where that is relation to the actual hole itself is it near the T box is it in the Fairway is it near the uh green I did not study that condominium development sir would it would it influence your opinion in any way if I was to tell you that the actual U that development is near the T box um as opposed to a drop zone or an area where where the initial initial t- shot might fall that sounds like a different situation yeah you're welcome I just know for the record yeah Mr chairman I know for the record we did not use the example of the other that was I think the board s yeah so the applicant did not Ed as an example just for the record any other uh members of the public with questions of the public portion any other questions I have no more questions for this witness Mr chairman thank you Mr mull no questions um so then we move on to your next uh sure Steven Duda yes Mr dud [Applause] Mr Duda would you raise your right hand please do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to this board be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got thank you and your full name for the record please uh Stephen Andrew Duda thank you hello again Mr Duda hello when you testified at the last hearing you said that you reviewed the file in this case is that is that accurate that's accurate okay were transcripts in the file transcripts were not in the file okay so you didn't do anything to um review prior you didn't review any prior transcripts from from any of the hearings in this case that's correct okay yet you gave expert testimony about storm water management which was a subject of much debate in Prior hearings are you aware of that I'm not aware of it being a big conversation because I didn't review the transcripts okay so you don't know what anyone in this in this application testified to about storm order correct I mean there's requirements for storm water and you either meet them or you don't no but I'm asking you the witnesses the our expert questions other expert board comments you don't have any awareness of any of that correct no okay yet you gave an expert opinion in this case that is correct okay um sir you you gave some testimony about existing pipes on the site and whether they serve any function is that correct yes okay are you aware that that issue was first raised by Mr mcbrier during the January 30th 2024 hearing I was not at that meeting so no I'm not aware okay do you know that raised it again during the July 22nd 2024 hearing uh I don't believe I was at that meeting so no I'm not aware okay you testified that it's not clear if the pipes carry water to or from the site and that the issue will need to be clarified because the pipes will be located under the proposed homes did I get that right that's correct okay what did our uh civil engineer Mr shammer what did he testify about those pipes now I believe he said that they were going to be removed how do you know that when you didn't read the transcripts uh I actually may have been at the July meeting I do remember him saying that they would be removed oh so you were at the July meeting I think I was I'm not sure I believe I was respectfully I mean how could you not know if you were here or not right I do a lot of cases okay um so sir I'm sorry hold on a second so do you recall when Mr schammer testified about the pipes uh beyond that they were going to be removed no I don't okay and you don't recall him testifying that they were uh of they didn't serve any purpose I don't remember that okay um so I don't know how you could determine that without actually doing a test figure figuring out where they go where they come from okay well I'm going to read you what Mr shammer testified okay he said quote and this is at page 55 line 20 those pipes that you're referring to are leftovers from some pass activities on site so they're not really functioning as active draining features or facilities so there will be improvements over those and those will be those will be removed and in response to Mr mcb's question as whether to as whether how he or whether he's confirmed those facts Mr Scher testified at page 56 line8 quote the answer is yes we looked at them and they're there but they're not functional anymore um yet you still rais this as an issue I mean on the plans they only show them going into the site with a line where they end do you think Mr shammer is lying I didn't say that okay well do you do you have any question to do you have any reason to question the veracity what he testified about I mean I would hope that he would show where the pipes are if they are through the site where do they end where do they begin what were their purpose do they had a purpose at some time okay but I'm asking you he testified under oath that he investigated the issue and he said they're not functional they're going to be removed do you have any reason to doubt the veracity of what he said I just hope he would put it on the plan make it clear engineering plans show you what the intent is I know you said that but do you have any reason to doubt the veracity of what he said no okay now sir um you made um you made a lot of this issue of soil testing during your um testimony um if soil tests confirm that the soil infiltration rates that we projected um are in line um you have no issues with our assumptions and Analysis on storm order correct well yeah I mean um were soil tests performed they're being performed okay and so my question to you is if those tests confirm that the infiltration rates are similar to what we're projecting for the site do you have any issues with our assumption and conclusions so soil tests are not only for infiltration rates it's also for the presence of groundwater or any other limiting zone so now the infiltration rate may be okay but you may not have sufficient depth of groundwater sir have you ever done uh and I think we answered this you've never done a project as a professional engineer where you served as the Civil on on storm water correct not in New Jersey okay so you know that um or you don't know that soil testing is often a condition of approval in these matters and the soil testing results will be sent to the township engineer and D to confirm that they're in line with the plans is that correct this project does not get D approval so no these the soil testing will not be sent to DP so as for the first part they'll be sent to the township engineer correct shouldn't they be part of the public record though well they will be part of the public record but they have to be heard by the public right everything that we submit in this case is the public record is it going to be part of a hearing it's a condition do you know what that is I'm aware of what conditions are okay and they're usually not heard in a public meeting in all of your vast experience in New Jersey are you aware um that soil testing is never a condition of approval I don't know no because you don't do work in New Jersey I don't have any other question for this witness when you say that the soil testing and um should be part of this hearing are you saying that uh the township engineers in the office would not be competent to uh evaluate the results of that testing no I just think it would would be difficult for somebody to oppose any kind of a calculation error if it's handled as a condition of approval so you're saying that uh if there was an error done by the uh applicants the Builder uh hydrologist and the engineering office uh missed that that could be a problem but I think so but have you any do you have any knowledge of that ever happening in mors Township not in Morris Township any uh anything in moris County not in Morris County okay I don't have any further questions any board members with questions Mr rer any questions no questions board professionals any questions yes Mr H when you made your assumptions on soil characteristics and groundwater did you use the ncrs um website to find where the soils were and what the groundwater depths were and that type of thing yes a USDA website USDA okay ncrs has this another website are you aware that soil profiles in that uh system uh are not always correct uh they're not always correct but okay you need to do soil test to confirm it right do you ever look at ncrs or geoweb or whatever and then look back at the old ruer series soil surveys that were done by the state back in the 50s 60s and early 70s no I just stick with the current um USDA Maps Okay because I always cross reference just to make sure that there is continuity between that and there is not a lot of continuity and my uh experience is is the ncrs is too General ruer series is more uh exacting so that's all I have any members of the public with questions of this withness just yeah let me close the public for seeing none close the public portion Mo just two quick questions can you use the microphone please yes thank so with respect to uh an inspection of the site would you seek the opportunity to participate in an inspection of the site relative to these water related issues at the previous meeting I didn't offer to to visit the site when they did soil testing did you ultimately make that offer oh I made the offer in the public comment and is there something that you think people have forgotten uh as a result of uh your concerns that you raised in your report has there something new that hasn't in any way uh no there's there's nothing new soil testing is done to confirm the soils can accept the water and confirm if there's any limiting Zone and with respect to the breakdown of your existing work pass between New Jersey and others jurisdictions what percentage of your work is in New Jersey uh so far all my professional work is in PA okay um thank you questions thanks any followup uh no board members profession okay you're excused all right you have any other Witnesses Mr uh chair that closes my my portion of cross-examination okay Mr Mullen have any other Witnesses no I do not [Music] okay okay any members of the public that wish to speak of regarding its application please come forward Mr Schilling well this would be this would be com yeah this is comments would you raise your right hand please you Solly swear there any testimony you give to this board to be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth so help you got and would you state your name please Armstrong I'm sorry your name again please your name please your name I repeat your name please Allan mcalpin five Armstrong Ro you spell your last name please MC a l p is in Papa I and is in November hey Mr mcalpin what do you wish to say our open space is precious once lost to sprawl it cannot be readily re claimed thank you Mr Schillings Larry Schillings five Spring Hill L Mr Shillings would you raise your right hand please do you is that good enough yeah that'd be fine do you solemly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth so help you God well I want to thank all the board members all fellow homeowners in our Township for you're volunteering of time and effort to hear and rule on moris Township land use issues I give you so much credit sitting I've been to four or five of these meetings love they're brutal and uh but it's a job that has to be done and I thank you for your efforts we all get back our own ways to our Township and uh very much appreciated I recall our last Spring Brook neighborhood rally to your meetings to challenge another developer who had money-making plans involving the subdivision requests of a 1 acre property at the corner of Springbrook Road in Armstrong he wanted to build two railroad homes on a single home lot and together a decision was made not to approve this request resulting in the building of a beautiful one single family home that now looks like it has been in our neighborhood for about 50 years a new beautiful home done right all in accordance with current Morris Township land use laws we continue to thank the board that board for holding firm on our land use laws resulting in this wonderful addition to our Springbrook neighborhood we return to your meetings with another challenge to another developer who wishes to maximize their financial investment on land in our neighborhood across from Mount Kimble Firehouse adjacent to Springbrook Country Club where I where my family has been a member for 47 years as a 40-year resident of the township and a Springbrook neighborhood member I am not against land use development our land use laws were established over the years by fellow Township residents serving in the best interests of our community please do not dismiss these laws and all this previous work lightly this panel or this parcel in question is zoned for one single family on three acres I would have no issues with this development or even with a minor variation on that plan let's say two homes three homes four homes all single family hes please uphold the longtime established land use laws for this site say no to this developer who once again wants to maximize his return on his investment by presenting a cluster of 13 large single family homes minimum distance apart with the total look of a condo development supported by a condo type homeowners association that will pay for sanitation and Road Services all in a clear violation of the land loose land use laws in place for that very of land many many years ago this is a stark encroachment on our Springbrook neighborhood made up only of single family homes all in compliance with Township land use laws this 100% visible cluster development is too dense and it's out of character for our Springbrook neighborhood and requires a big swing on the on uh requires a big swing on the board's current zoning restrictions to pull this off these so-called Carriage Houses would rank in the top 20 of the largest homes in our neighborhood consisting of about approximately 140 homes the osj zoning requirements prohibit cluster residential development of this Township par of land while separ while separating these 13 large single family homes on this parcel by a minimum distance May legally preempt the cluster zoning claws in reality it does not this is a cluster residential development in the heart of our Township on a parcel Zone for one single family home on three acres of land in CL our Spring Brook neighborhood is a very special place in our community with very well maintained single family homes on 13 to 1 half acre lots this is a density density density issue and request please do not medicate nor minimize our Township's longstanding land use laws for this parcel of land in question thank you any other MERS of the public speak any other members of the public wish to speak Mr leak okay he your name Sir John 24 Township you spell your last name please sure n t n thank Mr must would you raise your right hand do you solemly swear that the testimony you will give to this board be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got I did thank you sir I just want to come and say uh one I'm a I live in the township I am a member of SC Country Club and on theber board as well uh I've been involved in this project for a number of years now we've looked at multiple developers over time um the board has always taken approach put in uh the best um something that would integrate well with the neighborhood and be a nice look uh for the club um the developers that uh for the years has done a great job they've worked with us to make sure that they have put a wonderful project together um I just want Sam in favor of it uh you know moris Township is a beautiful town we love it uh there's a huge demand for highend homes right now and I think that this is a great development that could bring a lot of new ex thank you Mr would you raise your right hand sorry would you raise your right hand please you saw we swear that the testimony you'll give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got yes and again your name for the record please EXC Nicholas leakas one Spring Road um so I have nothing prepared uh I'm just trying to appeal to the board as a as really just a concerned resident I think my home is the closest in proximity in terms of the homes on springb road uh I bought this house a few years ago um coming from Brooklyn I grew up in in Mar I grew up on hard Ro I grew up at springberg Country Club um when I saw the opportunity to buy this home my wife and I jumped on we actually made an offer over asking price this was in the height of the whole mess with the housing you know prices um before we even stepped foot on the Propet because I knew that Spring Brook and the club in this community was something that I wanted to raise my family and I wanted my kids to be a part because it means something to me and it means something to everybody in this room who has taken a lot of their time to be here on this application and all I can say is this does not fit the neighborhood I think Mr shillin said it perfectly this is a density issue no one is against U developing land no one is against uh new housing but the problem is you have and just for lack of better term you have a development that is being stuffed into a place where it doesn't fit we're trying to put uh uh you know uh this this cluster of homes and whether it's a multif family or whatever the characteristic may be in terms of what's written in in the code um we can all see it for what it is it's too many homes on too little land and the developers came in here with big promises on they wanted to be good neighbors and they wanted to do the right thing although I would be heckled during my last line questioning by the developer um you know I have questions about why is this being done why are we jamming this into our into our neighborhood um and it's you know I'm I'm I want to be optimistic I hope there's no issues I mean um I don't want to kind of throw anybody under the bus I was I was offered a new driveway if I didn't oppose this right I'm not going to throw my neighborhood under the bus so that the developer can come in and Jam these homes in here I have concerns with the traffic I'm not a traffic expert and I don't handle this type of law on a regular basis you know I'm just coming in just trying to appeal to Common Sense um you put 13 homes the families living in them they have to go to school somewhere they have to drive in and out right the golf balls are going to go into I've hit golf balls in that yard myself plenty of I have a strong F how you call it um but realistically I mean this is something that's going to change the fabric of our neighborhood and we all want to be good neighbors and we all want to invite people to come in and enjoy our neighborhood but they can't abuse it and I would have no objection to allowing some sort of variance you know to to build some single family homes that can form at least in some part with the neighborhood but this is gone too afar and this is very far from what the expectation of the community is I don't think anybody in this room when they bought their home contemplated something like this being in the middle of this neighborhood uh I certainly didn't um you know we are definitely alarmed at what you know may happen you know it's it's something that um you know we really hope that you will consider if a variance is warranted that it be came a little bit here because 13 homes it's too much you can bring in all the lawyers all the experts you want right and and and try to justify the size of this or the the distance between homes and there's always some justification you can you can make but at the end of the day what I'm seeing here is the only thing that the developers have gone for them is it's going to generate tax dollars and that's important I get but that cannot be the only reason for granting a wild variant not just a small variance a wildly abusive variance to this part of land um it just can't be I mean they came in early on saying that they were going to put uh low income or or or housing units that's gone right they Trojan horseed that one they came in with those intentions what are they going to do they're going to write a check to try to make it all back I don't see any actual low-income housing I don't see that anywhere so it's just like every other development where they're write a check and try to absolve themselves of you know actually having to make any real impact on moris pip on Morris County on on our community with the low-income housing so I I ask that you see this for what it is and if you do decide that a variance is warranted please I beg of you for the sake of everybody in this room for my sake for my children's sake right dealing with the the the traffic issues and and and all that comes with it please consider doing it at a much lower rate four homes Five homes something along those lines that will conform uh we will welcome them with open arms but but please before you make this decision please consider the entire neighborhood and the fact that everybody here has taken their time because it really means something thank [Applause] you and the other members of the public could you raise your right hand please you solemly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got and your full name please Deborah Bru bedari I live at five Alber Road been a resident of uh well actually grew up in the Springbrook neighborhood not my age but there in the 70s at a three Spring Brook Road and when we moved back with our family it was the neighborhood we wanted to be at we purchased a home at five Alber Road in 2000 long time ago um I'm anal as by trade as well as a realtor so excuse me if I kind of get lost in reads I think there are many points against this um project but I will just comment on a few I'd like to say first all that the burden on the neighbors to defend against these extreme types of zoning par depits is is significant this is I'm sure the the developers attorney can tell you I the eth meeting we've had to all gather for not to mention the cost that the neighbors have to endure to hire attorneys and experts to kind of defend against this constant onslaught of people who want to just abuse our zoning organ it's really it's pretty shocking um you know as a realtor I do a lot of workship and i' love to point to the single family nature of our community and how important that is um when people make a huge financial investment in their home they should be able to ride on our B and our zoning we should have some sort of protection against this kind overdevelop agressive agressive violation the very Law Firm representing the developer was here arguing against this kind of subdivision and development during the five springberg bird application when they tried to suby that two lots you know their concerns were about I don't know I don't know what I don't know what she's talking about what are you talking about what's five spring for pro Sal and grood I I never I never their fir oppos something else it's not well just second excuse me it's not relevant um it's not relevant whether his firm represented somebody else in opposition to another development they are attorneys they are hired to represent their client well that application was smartly rejected by this board as being inconsistent with the nature of the neighborhood and now we have a beautiful single family home that sits on that property which is a real asset to the neighborhood the whole project is inconsistent with character of the neighbor but the developers keep using the terms unique and not contemplated by the master plan and I have to think that there is a good reason for that many of these condos Ander develop in the is prohibited many of these condos will have rear-facing um yards to the street which is uncommon Mor Township we don't often drive down a road to Mor Township where we're looking at the rear of the house but many of these homes in this development we'll do just that I can attest is having been a member of spring gr since 1977 that a good portion of uh balls of that TX go directly into this property as a matter fact the border of the property is an active part of the golf course it is a lateral Hazard and you're actually allowed to play the ball from that area so there are golfs in properties many of my the focus on the single family ra15 zoning when they're doing capit for uh density and that kind of um comparison is only part of the story 33% of the homes that surround this development are actually r835 which have significantly more uh significantly more substantial setbacks and requirements for example the ra 35 lot requires 35,000 square fet um fo box compared to the 15,000 ft with ra as I said it's the surrounding properties were actually already 35 the average lot size surrounding individual homes is nearly 7 Acres there about 24 lots that surround the parcel the average size of those lots is7 Acres compared to the likely acreage for these unit which will be 28 the average square foot per acre on the existing homes is approximately 3900 square feet that's per acre not per unit the square feet for this development per acre is contes closer to 10,000 that's more than two and a half times the existing homes and that's not accounting for the roads that are going be development the de developers try to sweeten the presentation by offering new sign for the neighborhood this neighborhood's nearly 100 years old if the residents wanted new signage we would have done it right now it's not not in character with the homes or the feeling of spring neighborhood I can go on I'm just going to say I'm not sure where it ends if we approve something like this in the township my home backs into another lot that goes down to harder Road between the two of us we have about 2.25 Acres I'd need to think that developers would contemplate putting five 10 15 homes on that parcel what just s it will grossly change the character of our neighborhood and it will be irreplicable thank [Applause] you any other members of the public wish to speak we got a raise your right hand please do you solemly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God and I'm sorry but would you say your name again p and I am Springer gr thank you and thank you for taking the time to listen to our concerns about the proposed development um my husband Nick and I purchased the property at five spring in October of 2021 one of the main reasons we bought it was it's lovely view um that's the open space of the Country Pub um affords um before actually making the purchase of five spring gr we did quite a bit of research we looked at the to make sure that the view would be maintained into the future before we invested in the property and built a new home on it um we looked into the financial of the club and we also looked at the designations of the property by the town of of of Morris um I think we can all agree that open space in the state of New Jersey is a precious commodity um and we feel very fortunate to live in a state and town that works hard to fund and preserve Open Spaces as such knowing that the land owned by springborg Country Club was designated as open space um by the township of Morris we felt confident that our new uh home would maintain its lovely view uh far into the future and that our investment in the property was sound um obviously now we are questioning our analysis if the township of moris can approve a variance that destroys an open space so a developer can profit I'm not sure that any open space in the township of hor is safe right now the only reason that we can see to destroy this open space is so a developer can make a profit and I don't think that's really a good reason to destroy open space thank you yes ma'am you raise your right hand please do you solemly swear that the testimony you'll give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you guys and your name please my name is Elizabeth Brown and I live at 56 Springbrook Road for over 35 years thank you and having been here I've had um grandchildren come and visit and we've walked around the wonderful spring Rook area and uh I know that there will be children involved whether they're visiting the people that live in these new homes that are to be built or whether they're actually there because if there are some bedrooms in these housing that are proposed and I don't think that there's a really safe place for them to play if they live there they're going to have bicycles and scooters and things and be out and around that could be a traffic problem and Spring Brook has two lovely ponds um they have Armstrong Pond and they have the other Pond which is on the same part of the land where the new housing develop is to be so I'm a little concerned about where they're going to play I don't hear anything about fencing um the houses are very densely put together I'm just concerned that they're out and about children are curious and they like to roam thank you very much [Applause] yes sir you raise your right hand please you Solly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I do and your name please my name is Harry RIS about your last name please risk spell it please r i r i s k i n thank you address and the essence of my talk is um sir can you just give your address once more time one more time oh sure um I live in men Lane open to all Frank do you have an objection no no objection I have an objection okay so Mr Mr risken is this property how far from your home is it to this property it's a significant distance I would say at wallpark four miles are are you associated with springberg country I am not okay but I want to come home to Mars T where I liveed for 2023 years years ago Mr risen I I think that um you lack standing to present to the board yes doesn't mind yeah but we have objectives welcome home okay yeah sorry on once you live here you're more than welcome I'm sorry once you live here you're more than welcome well that's what I was trying to do because I wanted to move into this okay of the houses okay they're concerned about hearing your voice so so we're not going to hear from no it's all right it's all right there no more commentary is it only for residents Mr chairman is is this uh are comments only allowed by residents of the township well you do have to have standing which would be being a resident gives you standing or having some some connection to the prop some connection to the property or J well he did say that he does have a connection where he wants to move here yeah that's not going to get it so whose decision is that yours or is it part of well it's kind of a legal question you know that I mean certainly the board could weigh in if you want to hear his testimony I just don't want to deny someone yeah for a reason that isn't really a reason well the reason is under missuse law you have to have standing to be able to address the board and based on what he told us I didn't think he had standing the only thing I'll say is that it's easier to strike from the record than to never hear him in the first place that's all yeah it's but you're right it's the a board call so if you if the board is of the opinion you should hear the hear him we'll hear any other members Mr here's testimony I'm sorry could you just elaborate to Mr V's point it's easier to strike it from the record he's well his point is you could hear him and then say well you don't have standing so we don't have to pay attention to what you said right right um rather than send them away without hearing them in court you would do a profer right you would come up to the judge and you say here's where I'm going with this this is what I'm say and then the judge would say yeah go ahead you can go on the record but we don't have that in land use it's looser it's sort of looser rules which is kind of to my point let the guy you know if you want to say I mean so you're saying that someone on the opposite side of our town has standing someone who may want to move into this if it gets approved doesn't have standing if he were a contract purchaser he would have standing okay yeah my name is Steve laer La same objection since I'm the contract purchaser as well as the principal one of the principles of the development team and SL so Mr La would you raise your right hand please you're remember the I'm a principal of slocc development the applicant and as a someone who intends to live in this development from day one I believe Mr Schuster's desire to hear from a buyer as well as Mr all's uh consideration for somebody who could be a contract purchaser of which I am right now would standing I'm I'm going to have to defer to Mr Aller on this should have have been presented as a witness by he doesn't have to be presented as a witness by the applicant he has an opportunity to speak now I'm speaking as a public okay just let let go right and so he has the opportunity as the public as the contract purchaser I think that gives him standing to speak okay just can I interrupt for half a second I'm always an advocate for letting people speak that's what's fair right and you hate to be in a position to exclude somebody but he has counsel he has very effective counsel and so he's made by making that choice of council and pursuing this application in the way that he's had I don't think it's right let me just make a let me just wait wait wait I want it's really important your your your CL your client just stood up and made legal objections to something we were doing you are you are representing him completely inappropriate sir completely inappropriate yes completely inappropriate wait wait wait hold on if there were court reporter here she'd tell you she can't take it all at the same time I got you all right you don't represent Mr Le is that correct I do not okay right but understand Mr Mullen we've allowed other people you do represent to come up and speak as is their right because they can come up and testify I made my point I appreciate listening and we can carry forward I just don't think it's appropriate okay okay Mr laer would you raise your right hand please do you solemly swear that the testimony you'll give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God thank you so I just want to go through a couple things with everybody um you know the history of my being involved uh my partner's being involved has been to try to attempt a partnership with the club and the neighbors you heard Mr musin uh choose us over our willingness to craft something commensurate with the sture of the club's facilities its architecture and its neighborhood Aesthetics they felt this lower density separate residents design made it far better with their club and I believe the majority of their members continue to feel that way we have always attempted to make this a better and improved project uh the purchase of the adjacent property for a neighborhood park uh we did a traffic study to demonstrate its minimal impact on the neighborhood uh I even attended both the uh initial obors meetings and listened I stood up and even listened to all their objections and concerns that was about a year ago unsure the exact date but I believe Mr mcin could probably provide that through the 11 months of these hearings we've altered this plan anytime we've heard of construction a constructive Improvement or suggestion we've reduced the number of units of our application from 16 to 13 we substantially added larger mature trees and committed to such and we' committed to protecting the largest healthiest ones uh We've widened the road from the initial application the roads in the turnarounds we've gone from front front facing to side facing garages the front facing may have been um applicable but the side Bings made more sense look better we heard that from members of your board and and your board professionals uh we're adding the sidewalk and adopting an effort to build a neighborhood Wide Sign and why is that because we thought the gentlemen of your professionals or yourselves suggested that we adopted it a 4 way my wife Melissa is in the audience she's sitting in the back row and we are finally empty neers we very much hope and intend to live here in this project from day one and be the very best neighbors anyone could ask for what I've heard tonight from some of the other comments which everybody has a right to to concern themselves with is they're worried I just heard about kids play but yet they're not worried about kids playing from the single family homes bordering the 16th Fairway or the 17th Fairway or the 18th Fairway or any of the other Fairways I happen to be in the golf business happen to own a public golf course called Fox Hollow down in Branchburg and I'm part of the management owner ship group at a private golf course up in New York I've been involved in the golf business for best part of about a decade and a half I'm very I've been a Golf Magazine panelist I've been published multiple times at Golf Magazine elsewhere and I'm probably one of the better quasi experts suitable to determine the distance between a golf ball strike and a residence in this case I've actually wored the property I I believe you Mr Kramer whether somebody walked the property and found golf BS I have walked the property I found golf BS right outside the lateral or out of bounds Hazard and I've found them probably about four or five feet in at best I've never seen them the 20 feet in that the back of the house that we propose in our development would look like I also noticed that some of the other people who were up here Express said this would be a clear violation of their views well if as my attorney and Council has put up multiple times and I encourage anybody on this this board to go take a look and I encourage other people here to take a look this development is completely obscured by not one but two strands of trees from onst we to mature trees none of which are impacted or affected or nor are there any plans to thin them out accordingly so those views that people are worried about conceding or having them impaired that simply doesn't exist it was also made clear that it was made mention that there'd be uh 20% of the largest uh of the largest homes in the neighborhood we actually and you heard from Mr K our planning expert that the current concentration hmes on Armstrong and other roads actually is a higher density if you take Apples to Apples than what we're proposing and we understand there's a zoning change involved and we respect admire respect thank you for your time and patience and expertise in determining whether or not this is viable one other thing I just like to make a mention of uh two other things is one we have Mr Williams asked us whether at the last meeting whether we' be willing to declare ourselves a 55 and over Community uh we do agree to that Mr Williams and we also agree as and I'm going to commit myself to agree that we intend if we are approved to to manage the construction process with minimal of any disruption meaning we will work with the neighborhood we don't pl we aren rushing these to get them out the next the next month and starting construction at 6:00 in the morning we will adhere to whatever reasonable schedule is set by this town its professionals the neighbors input Etc what we really want to do is build a place where myself my wife several of my friends Mr risen who wasn't given the opport Unity to discuss this and several other people one of whom couldn't be here tonight but gave me a letter to read in which I'm not going to do um but effectively said he's a professional he's a partner at McKenzie and he wants to move back to moris Township and he wants to buy a place like this and you know I think there is a deth of these kinds of residences that attract people who exist today in the community but don't need to live in five and six-bedroom homes they don't want to show their snow they don't want to mow their loans they want an HOA and an HOA by the way that will be well funded well managed and not subject to 2008 2009 levels of foreclosure so we think that this is a really healthy project for this Cas and we believe that the obor's case while very valid because everybody's entitled to their own opinions we feel that this objector case is really built on a provincialism that they don't want to have anything in their backyards except for what is currently a parking lot with overgrown vegetation last thing I'd like to say and then I'll I'll gladly remove myself is at no point did my partner or I ever ever ever off offer any construction concession to an adjacent neighbor to build a drive way or to do anything else that would constitute anything close to uh a pro quo for their support for this so I just want to establish that we are also quite ethical and remain intent upon remaining quite ethical thank you for your time I can give names we so we don't ask questions okay unless question is he still here Mr Williams has a question for Mr laer he walked out okay well comes out and just a question we can catch up with that in the meantime we'll go here I'm sorry your name again jul winter and miss winter would you raise your right hand please do you somly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I do thank you you just two1 thank you okay yes okay I I've lived on the golf course for 41 years and they observe U the club battling new Springs um whenever trees fall naturally or been cut down on on purpose uh trees drink a lot of water I object to the dense development for the same reason that 81 Acres known as Deer Haven and jocky Hollow on Hill cop Reserve were preserved that's the inve and this project lies just above the headquarters of the Great Brook one of the five uh principal streams to the Great Swamp um Watershed a very environmentally um sensitive area I'm concerned about additional runoff and pollution this is raw land why should any bearings be given it's not like we're dealing with a non-conforming house on a non-conforming um parcel um we need our board to um enforce and protect our land use laws and um my neighbor sent me a they put me here tonight but they sent an email can I agree but they no I'm sorry but you can't they're not here to ask questions if we should be question [Applause] thank you thank you yes Mr L I just had I just had a couple questions you said it may be a 55 unit uh development and therefore you and your friends are G to be there so I'm guessing there's no small children uh I I would love to tell you in an absolute that there would be no small children we are happy to uh to uh abide by a 55 and over sale a legal sale process that's something that should you choose to ask of us as a as a uh as an approval right we would if bu by there are no of among the four or five current highly interested purchasers and myself who was committed to this and again I say this in front of my wife so I'm gonna have to pay a price if I if I didn't um there will be no small children to the best of my knowledge in this community amongst the group that we know that would be living there permanently or regularly because there's 13 homes and you mentioned about four or five were your friends already so the other eight could possibly be other friends potentially sir but again we would we'd be more than happy to subject our to a 55 and over which usually usually skews pretty hard against seeing lot of small children there but I can't tell you in an absolute that someone in their 30s or 40s if you did not impose a 55 and older uh requirement requirement upon us could show up with small children I don't want to tell you but I do know for a fact and several of the people here have small children that play alongside the golf course currently thank you thank you are there any more questions no thank you can all right if I speak from the over here on I don't think it's on my voice do tend to carry why you just come over why don't you just come over here we'll just go I got I think I did you press no press the Bott the bottom right yeah it's on it's on it's on a microphone here how about now there we go there you go my name is Robert Willet w i l l tte I'm at four carton Road I'm sorry could you spell your last name again sure w i l l e TT for carton carton Mr Willet would you raise your right hand do you solemly swear that the testimony you give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got I do uh as uh someone who is and agree with everybody else in this room who lives in Mars Township particularly that area of Mars Township I do also love the neighborhood that I live in I've lived in it for 24 years I am on the cusp of becoming an empty nester unfortunately I do qualify for the 55 and over so that won't be a limitation but I am eager to stay in this area I do not wish to disparage uh the friends that I have that live in the spring book town houses but for the opportunity to stay in the area in the type of and again from the renderings that I've seen and the type of housing that will be available uh that is very attractive for not only me but my friends who also live in the area and are around the cusp of becoming empty nesters thank you Carl winter 210 m k Avenue Mr winter would you raise your right hand please do you solemly swear that the testimony you give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing about the truth so help you guys I do thank you I object to this development based on the fact that it seems as if the developer and even those that are saying that they want to move into this area are trading on the currency of the spring book neighborhood The Prudent Town historic district and the flavor of the homes and the layout of the neighborhood to come in take you know in one breath we call it a single family development of cluster homes and the next breath it's referred to as a condominium so we're taking something that isn't in the area and trying to I won't say force it in but coer it in around the zoning rules and bringing it into an area that that type of housing doesn't exist again as I said the developer and the people wishing to live there are trading on the good currency of what that neighborhood is and the adjacent neighborhoods on Mount kemell And The Prudent Town historic districts it's for the reasons of trying to create that density in an area where it doesn't exist overall there may be a few houses in the area that approach that density but it's completely out of keeping with the rest of the neighborhood so for these reasons I object to the de development I have a question yes you pardon me you mentioned the prudent toown historic district yes and you talked that they were trying to trade on to take the mantle of areas adjacent to them is this in The Prudent Town historic district PR historic district is just across Mount kille right so the so the boundary of The Prudent Town District does not include this property is that correct correct okay so if the township thought this was part of the historic district or should be considered to be part of it shouldn't we shift the boundaries of the historic district yes I'm just saying it's adjacent to the historic district I live on Mountain kemell I'm not in the uh Spring Brook Community itself I live adjacent to it but the houses along Mount kemell and in The Prudent Town district and in Springbrook which are all adjacent to each other you can freely walk from area to area I guess I'm one of the foolish people that live on a golf course but my backyard orders on the golf course had plenty of golf balls in my back backyard over the years haven't been hit by one yet but golf course and adjacent to the course aside it's in the same general area okay any other questions from board M okay thank you I just want to uh point out something that Mr winter said just to remind the board that a condominium is a form of ownership it has nothing to do with what a structure looks like okay uh mark you raise your right hand would you uh solemnly swear that the testimony you give to this board be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God so got it and your name again Mark haran nine Armstrong Road can you spell your last name please h r a n thank you Mr heran and thank you all for for all the time and effort you put into this uh I applaud your patience and your service Like Larry said I've been a number of meetings and you guys do a great job I don't know how you do it but thank you for uh your patience here I don't have a lot to add more to what my neighbors have already said all excellent points that I agree with 100% I just want to go on record as saying that I object to this project uh I object to it because of the appearance the congestion will cause and the traffic that will result from uh I'm also a member at springb I've been there for 26 years and I oppose the project for the very same reasons I think we jamming in two D of a project into a very tight area it's going to I think the views it's going to ruin the views uh I think it's going to affect the play on the golf course it's just not going to look good there's going to be too much traffic and I think it could be used for so many other reasons and I asked the question what is wrong with open space why does every inch have to be developed why can't it just be left why does everything have to be developed to make a profit for a builder and I also um I'm also disappointed that the club sold this property without checking with the membership first or coming to the neighbors many of which are members at the club and are here tonight with spoken a small group made the decision to sell the property without checking in with anybody first or we wouldn't have all been here um I love the neighborhood I love dve driving down 202 it's still an Old Country Road and my concern is that once we if this project goes through we're going down a slippery slope that all of 202 will be developed we've got the property further down the road where the old hospital was and it's eventually going to end up looking like Han over which in my opinion has been completely overdeveloped it's just too much this is a classic classic case of urban spraw which I do not want to see in my native so thank you all for taking this into consideration and I respectfully ask that you decline this application [Applause] hello good evening Irene leis one spring BR Road Miss leakas would you raise your right hand please do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I do would you spell your last name please l i a k s I'm sorry and your address again one spr thank you um sorry I'm a little bit shaky I'm not really a public speaker but I do have three young children and I do kind of want to piggy back what Mrs Brown was expressing the concern and also the developer where he mentioned um that single family homes don't have a concern with their children I live across the street from the country club well the golf course um there is always a concern with traffic um for me my biggest concern is the density issue I feel like many homes are being built in a small lot and the best part of my day with my three young children which are twins that are five and one that is two is taking a walk going up the street going to see the firetruck and walking back home um I don't want to say that you know plan should be made of you know what what I'm saying what I do in my day but it is is a concern especially with the congestion I mean we're talking about 13 homes where a lot of people order from Amazon there's obviously garbage that's going to be collected um the snow um Landscaping we're talking about people that essentially let's say there's two adults living in the house they going to have two cars I mean I remember Mount kemell being shut down for only an hour because of a gas leak and I can't express to you that I have to actually wait in my driveway for two minutes to actually get out my driveway to pick up my children um children are curious but I'm only speaking as a concerned mother I felt that it was important considering that other people have mentioned and I do see that the project well they've announced now I guess AG is 55 and up I mean 55 and up you're going to have grandchild they're going to come and visit you for the holidays or for the summer I just asked for the board to just please think about the young families think about the young children I mean it's a beautiful neighborhood I was born and raised in Brooklyn New York and I can express to you how happy I was to live in this neighborhood so I really appreciate your time just please think of us as you know as a unit where we just want things to be done correctly and safely thank you [Applause] laia Carson nine Spring Hill Lan and I've lived in this area in that house for 33 years M Carson would you raise your right hand please thank you left hand you somly swear that the testimony you'll give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God and I'm sorry now would you spell your last name for me K a r s t n Gloria Carston n spring hilling Spring Hill okay thank you and as I said I've lived in this neighborhood for 33 years we raised our children here uh one of the reasons we moved here certainly was for the Open Spaces which we always enjoyed immensely and I know I and many of our neighbors have been going to meetings about specific proposal for over a year I remember meetings back uh at the firehouse it's been going on for a very long time and I'm kind of a very simple person I just basically ask myself the question why has this been going on so long it seems as if it's a very simple decision um the only person or entity that would benefit from this project being approved is the developer all the other people in the springberg community will not only not benefit but it will diminish our quality of life our Open Spaces increase traffic uh all sorts of potential for for kids getting involved in accidents and I just am wondering why why it's been such a complex decision to to refute this proposal so obviously I would object to this proposal um it almost seems like it would be a no-brainer it was certainly diminish the quality of life in the neighborhood uh diminish the Open Spaces and just put too much crowding and congestion in an area that never has had it before and there's no reason to change that thank you very much for listening [Applause] richard6 Mr Wade would you raise your right hand thank you you solemnly swear that the testimony you'll get to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I will not reiterate all the comments of tonight except that this application is nothing more than G it's all this is is g g on behalf of Spring Brook Country Club G on of the all this neighborhood is exceptional and is the neighborhood in my opinion in Mars Township I've lived in the township for some 40 years Center Avenue area for around 15 years in other side of town off of Spring Valley and I've lived in spring bille for some 18 years my opinion be neighborhood any encroachment on it is not acceptable this is greed greed greed and I wish the board consider that if the developer was so anxious to move into this neighborhood he would have made some effort to deal with appropriate indiv excuse me individuals who have fought this for over a year we said tonight that he has some friends he wants to buy this he wants to build this he wants to bring his friends in three or four homes no he wants to build 13 we wanted to build Carriage homes these are not Carriage homes you want to put signs on each end of the street why nobody ask for nobody wants it we spent 45 minutes plus on one meeting with an architect wowing the crowd of what he was going to do only to find find out that was a pipe thing none of that was going to be what he was going to build it this is nothing more than a kof Time development to make money thank [Applause] you hi I'm sers I 42 Spring Brook Road keep your voice up Maggie sers 42 Spring Brook Road thank you Mr El would you raise your right hand please do you solemly swear that the testimony you'll give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God yes thank you ma'am so as I said long time resident I'm one of the new ones in springb I've been there almost 21 years I love my neighborhood I'm also a realtor in this town for almost 30 years with Deborah we worked together on a lot of transactions this project that they closing at the beginning of our beautiful neighborhood does not fit in with the scale of the other homes in the properties in the neighborhood um I don't want to reiterate I completely agree with everything else that all my other neighbors have said so I don't want to be redundant and take up your time but a couple things that I don't think were mentioned that I want to mention um is the traffic I mean springb road is already a Raceway in the morning for people cutting down like from Mount kemell to get down to 287 to get to compensation train station this is going to add a lot more traffic and that I'm not a traffic expert but I think it's obvious people are going to go to work they have to get to the highway they're going to cut down swing Brook Road or to get to the train of that's going to be an added thing I don't have children I have a small dog but I see the kids out playing and it's very scary when you see these cars racing down as it is now and this is only going to increase that car activity um someone mentioned about the golf balls and were people on Armstrong concerned or seeing golf balls in the neighborhood free Armstrong was recently on the market I showed it to a couple different plance that house is on an almost half acre 49 Acres all the times I was there there were golf balls in the middle of B yard just for the record so golf balls absolutely fly and hit those houses in The Yards over there um I found it curious that the applicant represented that he wanted to be the very best neighbor when I was approached along with a couple other neighbors in the parking lot after one of the last meetings and was told and I'll paraphrase but if this project wasn't approved that they were just going to put in low-income housing so it was sort of a bail threat which I didn't appreciate either to my neighbors that with me that approach with that so I I'll call that a very nice nebor I have a copy of the original spr work estate sales cure this is why we love our neighborhood I may I just want to read a couple of excerpts from it 1938 this was put together Miss sers do you have a copy that you're presenting to the board uh I can give you this I only have one copy here am I able to just read a couple of quotes from it can we just mark it as an exhibit sure okay why don't you read it and then we'll mark it okay sure of course uh many fine homes erected here during the past 10 years this brochure was put out in 1938 my home is in this brochure uh one of the quotes families have selected spring brth EST State as the location of their homes secure the knowledge that here they can enjoy peace and contentment among neighbors who respect the property privacy and social desires of those who live by live nearby and then another page each home was designed to form a distinctive and yet integral part of this carefully restricted community each has its own particular touch to enrich the general pattern and still embodies all the utilitarian features um with the Machine age and provided comfor this just says this neighborhood was built with beauty and that's why we all love it we've all been there for a while I plan to leave this house house the first so I'm only almost 21 years and I'm one of the new ones so I implore this board please don't let this cluster Community put into the beginning of our neighborhood as a realtor I can tell you I love showing homes in the neighborhood driving in that way it's a beautiful entryway if they have to come in and look at dick Wade pointed out KOB type homes it's just going to diminish the beauty of the entrance the main entrance to our neighborhood these homes are not in scale with the homes that are in our neighborhood now so I implore you please don't let this go for thank you okay the sellers the sellers would you just hand that up to Sonia here please we're going to mark that 06 right okay as what yes 06 careful okay okay okay I think we're good would you raise your right hand please do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got yes I do and your name please my name is Catherine l i a k uh and I'll be really brief um your address please I am at n Independence Court okay myg concern is safy since she's out of town no she lives in town Independence okay Independence is in town I thought she said maril address quick it's it's really to me all about the public safety um there are no sidewalks on Spring Road Armstrong on Al and the neighborhood is filled with all different age groups I mean sometimes you'll see in the morning you know mothers with strollers several times up and down the neighborhood you see in the evenings the older couples walking for their exercise there's always jogers there's teenagers in the winter that ice skate on the pond play hockey um a lot of the children after school ride bikes um of course we're concerned about automobile accidents but even more I'm concerned about fatalities human fatalities and I'm very much afraid of that that's a real possibility we're talking about a lot of homes in a small area on country roads and I implore the board like please I I hope and pray that you're listening to me as a mother and a grandmother that you have the power to say no to this other places for it this just isn't the place you know um so that's really all I have to say I hope that you really think long and heard about this because it's a it's a public safety disaster and I feel like it's really irresponsible and I hope that you can what I'm sending you tonight thank you very much hi my name is Vincent okay would you raise your right hand please do you solemly swear that the testimony you give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got yes and would you spell your last name please a VA a l l o n e and your address 10 Armstrong Road thank you I appreciate that you're all giving a lot of time to this giv a lot of consideration to it um I've been watching a lot sometimes from here and sometimes on Zoom uh last two hours I actually been watching on Zoom until I was able to finish the work that I had to do for the day and decided that it would be appropriate for me this is my only opportunity to speak to you and it's been struck me is that from the beginning of this project until now we've seen it change and it's changed reportedly to address safety issues safety issues that would have been evident to any developer at the start of the development and I caused me to question why is it that you all and we had to point out to the developer these safety issues and I think it's because they weren't really thinking of them as the Paramount issue I think what they were thinking of was how much money the development would make for them so we all have had to come to you to identify the safety issues and you have done an excellent job of listening to everyone and addressing those safety issues and they've come back and presented different proposals now I can't see into the future and I would gather that neither can any of you and I know none of the people here can see into the future either but what we can all see I think is another safety problem that we have not yet spoken about tonight or in the many meetings that we've had before tonight and because of that because of all the safety issues that you've already had to address do you feel comfortable that you have considered them all I don't I don't feel comfortable that we consider them all and I can guarantee you the developer has not considered them all either and I'm just going to point to one very easy one that you've heard many people talk about and I've heard all their comments and I agree with them and the one that's the most obvious is a golf ball a golf ball going into a backyard that is very close to the edge of the Fairway if youve walked the hole that this is on you'll see that the tea box ches right at the property that they're looking to the golf and it doesn't I don't have to tell you I do golf I'm a right-handed golfer the majority of golfers are right-handed golfers we all have terrible slices I sliced the wall as much as I want to but I still slice the ball Co offers still slice the ball if you watch the President's Cup this weekend you saw many slices unintentional but professional Dophin they went far beyond the few feet between the golf course and the backyards of these homes that's being proposed why is that because they're trying to cram 13 homes into a small space what I heard was that one of the Prime Developers principles would like to live there I would welcome that I think that would be wonderful that someone would come and develop in a very appropriate way a home two homes he said he has him and four friends they can build three four five homes and not 13 and that would alleviate a significant safety issue that's all staring us all right in the face I object to this plan for a variety of reasons safety being the cheap one thank [Applause] you any other members of the public yes Pat Duran deran would you raise your right hand please you solemly swear that the testimony you'll give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth truth so help you God I and spell your last name please d r d i m and your address I Rand off but I'm a member of the Board of Trustees at Springbrook okay so I'm a relative newcomer to this uh discussion first meeting I've attended I've listened to a lot of the commentary and certainly respect the perspective of the the neighbors obviously anything that affects your home and the area you live that is going to be an important issue coming from the perspective of the club I'm a member there for 15 years and I think its setting in the neighborhood is one of the unique aspects of the club certainly something that I think all the members feel very proud of in terms of the character of the club as it's been noted it is surrounded by homes around the golf course some preexisting um many pre-existing some you know much nicer newer some you know older and perhaps you know a bit more tired looking um certainly as a member of the club I believe you know this you know property development would not interfere with the overall aesthetic of the course I'm not in a position to sort of comment on the various zoning issues that are at play but the club has signed a contract with a developer to sell the land certainly the club is in favor of the sale of the land obviously subject to I'm sorry members of the public he's entitled to speak you cannot interrupt him you cannot make comments while he speaks nobody interrupted you let him speak so the club is a private club that's operated by the Board of Trustees I wasn't a member of the Board of Trustees when the club agreed to sell the land but the club has agreed to sell the land it was not subject to a vote of the membership at large but you know that's the reality of situation we're in so as a member of the Board of Trustees and member of the club I'm in favor of the land sale and this development sorry can I ask a question have you have you reviewed the specific plan for the development I've seen the renderings of it I'm not you know in terms of the you know specific layout of the the homes in the area and the various you know density issues I will say I live in a neighborhood in Rand that had much bunch of single family homes there was some undeveloped land we had a town home Community put in that many of the residents were not in favor of it's a I think haard of uh property ownership in the United States when people have to make those decisions but people are entitled to do what they you want their land so you've only seen the renderings of the housing but not the specifically out of the street or where the location of the houses are is that correct I know generally where they will be in relation to the golf course and I've heard the commentary about the issues with golf balls there's plenty of homes that are in Easy uh stking distance from the golf course if that's the primary consideration Beyond this any other questions from board members Mr chairman yes mrman would you be willing to put up netting or some sort of preventative measures from the golfs going into the properties that was subject to the club I suppose consideration but personally I wouldn't have a problem with that I think there's you know natural structures tree and fencing that could certainly uh provide you know some re or barrier and you know depending on exactly where they are it have to be either you know my opinion way right or you know a very long hitter with a wild shot that a problem could we make that a condition of the yes uh and I I don't know if we can make it a a um a condition if it's on springberg property we can make it so that the okay the developer would have to cons agree with the um Country Club to take the safety measures I don't know how we would judge that um and then how would you address all the other houses uh on the golf course I know we got the these here as opposed to everybody else we just have to deal with this um the price when you P you pay when you live on a golf course all over the country that's right every single the um well do we need to further discuss and clarify what we're actually asking them to do or discuss in terms of any fencing or netting um we have to discuss out yeah I I and I have a list of conditions of pretty long list um if there were an approval that you know would be for the board to consider that's just another one okay any other questions from the board Mr any questions I do not Mr Mullen thank you chairman may I just correct the statement made uh we've already testified once you said you want to correct something you said not that I said there was a statement that was made on the RO that was not true uh no we're not going there to say that somebody's lying I'm not I'm not saying it's lying I'm just saying it's not true um and I would also move to strike that testimony based on the St you can't you can't who who's testimony he's an interested part I'm just making the motion and it's Deni deny what opportunity does the public have to respond to an incorrect statement the representation was made that wait how long is he going to be allowed to to conduct business in this room he is just a resident and he is taking over like he's the applicants or the the attorney on the other side it's inappropriate and he should shut his trap because it's getting out of contr Frank's he's got a right to come up and point something out if he thinks that there was a incorrect statement made okay for the record again your name Nas Mr leis I'll remind you that you're under roath the statement was made that had support of membership notot bottom right bottom I object to this gentleman's continuing appearance at the podium he's had his allotted time to speak and this is not a debate okay I understand uh I just like to correct a statement that was made by the the gentleman um with regards to the support of the membership for this application um that is that is not correct um simply stated um I don't believe the membership was pulled in any in any sort of fashion Mr leakas are you a member I'm a member and a resident yes you remember that yes you remember cont you can't ask question well when was the contract signed how long have you been a member since well actually I grew up in as a member my father was a member I was still technically a member but I wasn't the primary member does that count how long you been a primary member uh four years okay and your statement is that the members were not pulled correct and I think you said that was what was stat I was just correcting that for the record it's the statement he didn't say the M for no he said the membership supported this he said that the of Trustees made the decision to sell the property yeah and he specifically said that it didn't go to the membership okay then I stand corrected I thought I heard the membership was put in there thank okay all right thank you any other members of the public who have not spell that who wish to speak Mr chairman I apologize for telling Mr lakis to shut his trap that was not appropriate so I apologize sorry Mr lakis okay um any other members of the public who wish to speak okay Pro just close the public let's close the public portion um Mr Mr Mr mull you wish to speak just very briefly very briefly uh like everyone else uh thank you for your time and your effort and your patience thank you for the vision that you hold very true in terms of what Mars Township is and what it can be with respect this development as many people have pointed out Mars Township is not ready for it yet it's not within the contemplation of the master plan as the master plan currently exists it might change over time there might be a change in terms of the political will of people but right now that change is not there and Mars Township offers everyone different choices I live on woodrest uh so I live in a townhouse uh right down the street from all these people uh I made choices because Mars Township offered those legal uh choices we're not ready for this uh it's going to take a lot of time and a lot of effort to get something like this right and so when your public says hold off weight density density density uh work with them that's all that these people are really asking they're not ATT hacking these developers developers are allowed to make money and devel and develop things but this Township isn't ready for this sort of development right now and I don't think the truth is I'm brand new to this matter all of like a half a day uh but I don't think that the master plan supports it maybe over time there'll be something but not right now so I urge caution thank you very [Applause] much a good take a five minute break and then we'll be back thank you I want to divide it 30 Mr goldber here Mr here Mr Williams here Mr Scher here Mr Ben here Mr here Mr wer here Mr rer here Mr pH so um I guess we're up to the applicant uh closing is that correct unless our board professionals have anything to add before we get there Mr Philips anything to add no I okay okay so um this is my closing statement um like everybody else um I thank the board and the professionals um I do want to particularly point out that this is a special meeting and I know boards are these days oftentimes uh resistant to special meetings and I I do as a personal matter as a member of the bar appreciate you all granting us this special meeting and also special meetings in the past so thank you um I would also like to acknowledge the participation and involvement um by the public in this case uh some of the modifications to our plan uh were a result of comments from the public uh both during the public meetings and in informal discussions outside of course board uh the bulk of the changes to our plans occurred in response to concerns that you raised uh and you heard a lot of this from Mr lapper but I'm going to just quickly reiterate um the density of this project shrunk from 16 to 13 we created a culdesac to accommodate emergency vehicles and better vehicular flow we extended the sidewalks on both sides of the road to connect the areas in front of all the homes we oriented the garages to the side so that none of them face the roadway we created additional guest parking spaces and a place for landscapers and other service providers to park we agreed to limit the occupancy of this project to 55 and over and we agreed to do that so we're going to do that we've agreed as part of of a developers agreement for this project to um uh erect signs um at the entrance to Springbrook and we've also agreed to make a voluntary contribution to the affordable housing trust fund um we're doing that because there is no affordable housing with the project and we feel like it's important to make a contribution to the trust fund that will be in a developers agreement that's not anything that's in this resolution That's goes into an agreement after the pro is done and it's completely voluntary we agreed to um also oh I already mentioned that I'm sorry let me just uh let me just say a a few words about tonight um I I've been doing this a long time and there are strong passions in this room there are strong passions on both sides and I think it's great that uh people are passionate about their homes their neighborhoods and protecting what they believe their interests are and I also believe it's great that there are Builders developers and others looking to make beautiful projects or make new residences to welcome people to a great town which Morris Township is a great town um however and as this board knows you can not base your decision on passion you have to base your decision on the law and in this case the municipal land use law and all of the testimony and the evidence that was put into the record over five hearings and now this is the sixth I believe Hearing in this case that is what the board is Guided by and the proofs that were put on you heard um from the planner this evening for the objectors on several fronts um really no real grounds for why he thinks this plan uh is deficient other than his experience I mean there's no been no studies no evidence no no no real um digging into to the to the merits of the plan and and we understand that I mean that's what what you do when you're objecting to a project you hire a planner other experts to come up with any reason you could think of I mean like spaghetti against the wall and you hope that some of it will stick well I hope I Prov this evening that none of the spaghetti that he threw against the wall stuck and the same with the storm water expert um with respect to the legal proofs that we did put on in this case our planner took you through the positive NE negative criteria and he showed that the positive criteria far outweighed any negative impacts from this project a few highlights I know you guys we just did this so I'm not going to go in gruesome detail single family residential is permitted in this Zone although the type of development we're proposing here is not permitted make no mistake when this project is completed there will be 13 single family homes single family homes ring this golf course as I showed Mr pesano up on the screen before s single family homes can be found on nearly every edge of the course because being on a golf course is an extremely desirable place to live and as you heard from 99% of those who spoke this evening they like being in and around the golf course the traffic impact from this project is minimal and you heard that from our traffic expert now that we are limiting the project to 55 and older the number of school children will be far below the eight that we projected had this been a non-ag restricted development there is zero evidence in the record that Public Safety will be imperiled by this application there is zero evidence in the record that children's lives will be endangered by this project this will be a highly landscaped and beautiful property we are adding 198 trees 185 shrubs 220 perennials and grass grasses and wherever possible as you heard from Mr Scher we are keeping the larger older trees on the site the demand for this type of product is high and as you heard we already have a few buyers who are very interested in the property there was some irony this evening when I heard from certain residents for example who were welcomed from Brooklyn but that these same residents shouted down a gentleman who lived in Morris Township for 25 years and has contributed in his career great greatly to Morris toown and Morris Township he would like to come home and move into one of these homes he was shouted down by someone who was welcomed into this community from somewhere far away from Morris Township excuse me no comments regarding open space I understand and we understand and appreciate Mr mcalpin's concerns regarding the loss of open space in Morris Township he's been very consistent on the issue I've seen him on my other applications and I get it he wants to protect open space this is not open space I'm going to say that again this is not open space this is part of a operating golf course that's been used as a practice screen and a staging area for trucks it is not a meadow it is not a beautiful you know grassy treelined area that's enjoying enjoyed by many picnicking and enjoying the landscape this is part of a golf course that will be subdivided so it is a golf course it is not open space and so all of this you've heard tonight on this project about open space is simply not true there are plenty places in mois Township that have open space and that I will agree with these residents and others should be protected this is not one of those Parcels there will be there has been and will be in the future developers looking to clear large tracks of land in Morris Township to develop high density housing particularly next year but not here not with this project we are not looking to develop high density housing the proposals for this property that came before were much larger and much more dense than 13 single family homes and as we move on ladies and gentlemen the demand for new apartments and affordable housing is going to continue to grow as will proposals for such product on properties just like this one audacious excessive radical unconscionable improper no these are not terms used to describe our current presidential candidates these were words used by the objector planner to describe this project there is an old saying that we lawyers use if you have the facts on your side you pound the facts if you have the law on your side you pound the law if you have neither the fact ta nor the law you pound the table for purposes of this case I would revise the final part to be if you have neither the facts nor the law you use a lot of adjectives I am sure if you look hard enough ladies and gentlemen there are land use applications out there that could be characterized as radical or unconscionable some of the mega Warehouse projects proposed in South Jersey just feet from res residential areas come to mind those are radical and unconscionable this project 13 single family homes on a golf course designated 55 and over is reasonable appropriate for the neighborhood and will meet a growing need for empty nesters who want to stay in the area but want a lower maintenance lifestyle that's it that's what's being proposed here not multi-fam housing frankly it's offensive for an expert to come here and say to this board that what's being proposed here is multifamily we can all get on our bikes or get in in a car and drive a mile into moristown and see multifam housing it is the four story thre story six story seven story buildings located in and around the green and elsewhere that's multif family housing to try and and sell a narrative that this is going to be a multi multif family development is disingenuous ladies and gentlemen that's absolutely not what's being proposed here 13 single family homes I appreciate your time I again emphasize that your decision is based on the record the testimony the proofs you have to weigh those proofs against other evidence you heard from the other side and you come to a decision you are a zoning Board of adjustment for those who say you're here only to protect the zoning laws at all costs you're here to Grant variances when appropriate that's the job of the zoning board not to defend at all costs and all time and manner all zoning regulations that is not the job of a zoning board so we trust your judgment based on the record that you will come to the right decision and approve this project I thank you and we thank you for the time that you've spent on this thank you Mr oler we go over the conditions so Mr chairman um over the span of the five or six hearings there were several items discussed um as things came up and I did take some good notes about it and uh have about 34 proposed conditions if um if the board were to vote in favor of the application and in no particular order they are this um the the project will be age restricted and again that's up for you know board discussion but um project would be age restricted with head of household being at least 55 years of age um there shall be no project name sign each unit shall have a maximum of four bedrooms the proposed new road labeled a on the plan shall be a private road all roadways and interior infrastructure including but not limited to the storm water management system shall be maintained by the Association the association shall maintain All Landscape buffers and replace any landscape buffers which die the association shall be responsible for trash and recycling collection uh the location of all fire hydrants on site shall be agreed upon between the southeast Morris County Municipal Utility Authority and the township engineering department the applicant shall install a fire hydrant on the fire department site subject to the approval of the uh Morris Township Fire Chief and the southeast Morris County mua the applicant shall satisfy all requirements stated in the letter from the southeast mua dated May 23 2024 the applicant shall use a different color P for the four feet of P area at the rear of all visitor parking spaces to identify the sidewalk area wherever a sidewalk crosses the rear of a visitor parking space um the applicant shall use perious Pavers at each of the guest parking spaces and the truck pulloff area the applicant shall comply with all storm water regulations as set forth in the storm water management report submitted by the applicant and as required by the township engineer so oil permeability test results will be approved by the township engineer um there shall be no common trash collect collection area individual home shall be provided with trash and recycling containers that shall be allowed to be put out the evening before the scheduled pickup day and requir to be placed back inside the respective garages by the end of day on the pickup day trash and recycling shall be by private hauler um no sidewalk and and actually Dave make a note about the trash issue because I'm not sure that the town does that any place else um so it's up for some discussion yeah no no sidewalk shall be installed along Springbrook Road in Li of installing the sidewalk along Springbrook Road the applicant shall make a contribution to the township and the amount is calculated by the township engineer pursuant to ordinance the applicant shall comply with the township Engineers letter dated July 18 2024 regarding site distances the township engineer shall at his sole discretion relocate the decorative fence and any Landscaping along Spring Brook Road in order to improve site distance from the proposed new road the applicant shall extend the public water main from Mount kemell Avenue to the existing Springbrook Road water main subject to the approval of the township engineer and the southeast Morris County mua uh there shall be no additional accessory buildings fences or walls permitted on the property other than those shown on the approved plans so for example no fencing between homes um the applicant shall install a welcome to Springbrook sign and again obviously that's up for discussion with the board uh the design and location of the sign shall be reviewed by the TCC and approved by the township engineering department prior to the issuance of the construction permit for its installation the association shall be responsible for maintaining the sign and that obligation shall be set forth in the Project's Master deed the master deed and the bylaws for the project shall be reviewed by the Zoning Board of adjustment attorney the applicant shall enter into a developers agreement with the township of Morris prior to the issuance of any building permit the applicant shall present the remedial action plan from and lsrp to address the presence of pesticides in the soil per njde remediation procedures and officially confirm with the township engineering department when the property is remediated to a residential standard uh the footprint of each building shall be fixed pursuant to the last revised plan and may not be altered without board approval all site lighting shall be dark sky compliant the applicant shall provide title 39 authority to the township prior to the issuance of the first certificate of occupancy visitor parking spaces shall not be used for snow removal storage applicant shall provide a monetary contribution for for additional replacement trees not otherwise provided by the applicant in accordance with the Township's ordinance the applic applicant shall comply with the environmental commission's report regarding its recommended plant list I.E uh comply with the Do Not plant list uh the applicant shall not remove any evergreen trees along the property line shared with the golf course no flood lights shall be mounted to the exterior of any dwelling and this restriction shall be included within the master deed the applicant shall comply with the tree removal and replacement requirements pursuant to chapter SE 57 of the Township's Land Development ordinance the applicant shall comply with the Township's residential development fee ordinance in terms of the required affordable housing contribution the applicant shall enter into a developers agreement with the township prior to the issuance of any construction permits and as we discussed tonight the possibility of u a condition that installed netting along the property line between the development and the golf course for the purpose of blocking stray golf balls from entering the development that was it Mr Bella any comments on the restrict on the conditions yeah I um there was a condition on The netting right um I think we need to look at that um to consider whether that's feasible or you know if it's been done anywhere else and for example in Spring Brook um it's up to the board of course I mean if you guys if the board thinks that that's a I mean I I I think our client would say that that's probably not the best option for this I mean the HOA could could always install netting at a later date should balls flying into their property become an issue as any property owner you know could do or approach the golf course to do that but making that decision just on you know I don't know who said it or when but um said Mr chairman I agree I think maybe it's something that if it's a problem down the road okay it just came to mind as the gentan was speaking but I'm fine not putting in at this point thank you I just have a question Mr Aller you had referenced two developer agreements um in that list well there would be one developers agreement one developer agreement but it was referenced twice as you okay I didn't know these are in no particular order and if the board uh grants the approval they'll be a little bit more organized okay this is just going through my notes as we were putting it together and I know uh Mr V had mentioned earlier that the contribution to the affordable um Housing Trust Fund was voluntary and not part of what we're deciding on here tonight is that the developers agreement you're referring to no in the developers agreement there'd be a contribution to the affordable housing trust fund per ordinance in the town and that's some percentage of the assessed value of of the homes all right they're talking about a voluntary contribution in addition to that okay right thank you for clarify board professionals do you have any other conditions that you recall no going to the garbage Hall I know of no other to yeah that's my recomend that's my recol ction also I think the town actually provides trash removal at every condo complex in town right so I don't think this one should be different right right but no plowing subject to the Kelly bill right so yes okay anything else before we start deliberating Mr anything else Mr mull do you have any condition that were not uh annunciated thanks for asking that now I just do I do have one question for our board professionals if that's okay sure um Mr Phillips I know um the objectors attorney had mentioned the master plan could you just speak to what he had mentioned earlier about the master plan not this particular I know we' covered it in a prior session but just to high level overview to address his comments on the master plan and that maybe one day you know know we could contemplate it or change it or with the next reexamination but just in the current state of of the master plan and how maybe VI yeah so the the master plan as you know Mr Goldberg has a variety of different sections including goals and objectives and I think some of those were um cited by the applicant's planner in support of the application uh with regard to the actual kind of land use designation of this property in the land use element this property since it is part of and owned by the GF course is part of that OSG uh Zone designation uh which is one of the reasons why I had asked the applicant's planner in terms of the proof requirements and specifically under the medich case to reconcile the fact that you know should the board uh be uh in U feel like it would Grant this variance how do you reconcile the fact that it's not and I you know there's things such as change circumstances uh and so forth which the applicants plan or address whether or not you feel that the applicants planner addressed that satisfactorily you'll have to decide that but for that very reason I had pressed the applicants Planner on that issue because technically this is part of the OSG and it's only intended for a variety of open space and golf course and and related uses thank you for clarifying Mr R do you have anything to add to that I I do not I just do want to point out to the board that there's uh believe three D variances right we have two d1s and a D5 we have a D1 because we have more than one principal structure on the on a single lot um we have a D1 be because the uh proposal is a cluster which is not permitted in the OS gu and we have a D5 for the density yeah right and I think we agreed that any other uh setback at uh yeah I think uh variance is required would be assumed into the cluster uh D1 uh correct yes correct do you agree Paul all should the board feel that the applicant is satisfied the D1 and D5 then I think consistent with that it be any of the related bul bars really would be subsumed within the D variances any question on that from any board members and that means that you're giving a consideration at the same time that you're voting on the on the D because the OSU um bulk requirements wouldn't necessarily apply to this type of development that's why they're subsumed into the use variants so board members you interested in uh hearing what you have to say um for my part um I think we've gone through what the U OSG Zone permits includes Parkland Playing Fields playgrounds Open Spaces reservoirs country clubs in existence PRI January 1st 94 colleges and other types of recreation government offices first aid emergency squads firhouse libraries but not garages storage yards and solid waste facilities Mr chairman it also permits single family homes on1 The Zone permits single family homes comply with the R3 Bulk Zone bulk varage requirements that's essentially three acre lots right uh proposal would have density of approximately one unit for every 15,800 Square ft but that that's the includes the uh the roadway I don't think we separated at out um The Zone also permits several accessory uses and conditional uses not an issue here uh pointed out it would need two D1 variances and one D5 variance um since single family homes are allowed in the area the applicant states that the D5 uh density variance would need to be governed by the burden of proof set forth in the um njsa 4055 D2 and not the enhanced uh standard set forth in the uh maichi case and uh as far as the D5 density is concerned it's a question of whether the special reasons promoted uh which promote the general purposes of the municip land use law is met and there's no detriment to the uh neighborhood or do the uh purposes of the zoning um and the goals that were stated by the applicants uh um professional planner include the uh use and de goal a the use and development of land promote the health and safety and Welfare of the community and the appropriate use would be keeping with the residential character of the area it's all single family homes and this would continue that um also cited goal C provide adequate air light and open space uh with the development being adjacent to a golf course and with the intensity approaching that of a dr15 Zone requirements the dominant uh residential zoning in the surrounding area that requirement is met promote and establish appropriate po population densities that would be the same rationale as I just said gold G provide sufficient space and appropriate locations for a variety of residential uses and that goes to the clustering that is at issue here but it is also uh taking into account the density as being approximate to that of an RA 15 Zone also uh the goal I promote a desirable visual environment to creative development techniques and a good Civic design Arrangement and the applicant has um presented unrebutted evidence that the design is in conformance with the building design ordinance of this municipality uh and goal and promote the efficient use of land present land is vacant and used intermittantly for commercial parking placing of the of one ra 130 lot or two slightly undersized lot for the ra30 130 Zone would not be efficient use of this land and the application makes much more sense uh the applications configuration has been approved by the fire department modified to get that approval and uh the development as approved by the uh uh public utility would enhance delivery of water not only to this area but also to the uh Springbrook neighborhood because it would have two points entrance into that neighborhood as to the negative criteria there is no that there be no detriment to the public good and no substantial impairment of the zoning plan um the proposed development is I think the testimony was approximately 700 feet from the uh closest houses on in the Spring Brook neighborhood and the two homes on Mount Kimble Avenue are 100 ft and 60 ft from the nearest house in contrast to the 25e set 25 foot rear setback of an RA 15 zone so it would be further away from adjacent properties than uh would be allowable in an RA 15 Zone uh the applicant also made several uh references the professional planner to the um uh towns master plan and one of the items that uh was emphasized that the uh population of the township is aging don't have to look much further and um there would be maybe a uh interest in Township residents or others seeking to live in the township of housing such as a town Hound or apartment living or one of single family detached houses smaller single family detached houses and I think this uh is a novel way of approaching that and it is in keeping with uh uh that uh goal of the master plan um also they also stated that the master plan states that although the planning board anticipates it the township will remain a predominantly single family detached home Community it must still be cognizant of those changing housing preferences as such it should look to for opportunities to promote diversity in the Township's housing stock were appropriate and for my having listened to all the evidence carefully listen to it ask questions listen to the public I think it does uh promote this uh does provide this opportunity to promote diversity the housing stock of the township uh and therefore I think I would be in favor of this application I know that there's concerns about safety I know there's concerns about cars speeding down Spring Brook Road to get to 287 um that is something this the tra all the traffic experts agree this will not have any substantial impact on the amount of volume of traffic entering and leaving spring of growth uh there's been no rebuttal of that testimony and so the um the method of resolving that speeding is to contact the police department and have to put the dummy car out there a few days and then put the real car out there and stop a bunch of people and that can be done it's done in our neighborhood there's one right around of cor for me that's out there fairly often um but I'd be interested in hearing what other people have to say about this application especially Mr Ben who's on the planning Boot and what his opinion is as far as how this complies with the master um I think you did an excellent job um we kind of placed into this situation because the golf course decided to sell the property they didn't leave it they decided not to leave it Park like or make it Park like a lot of people want to have like a nice empty area and it kind of was that way not really but the decision to sell the course this the section of the course this land is an invitation for construction so we can't be disillusioned or surprised that an application for construction is before us um a lot of people talk about we want to preserve the neighborhood and I think every generation wants to preserve the neighborhood or you live next to a vacant lot and next thing you know someone developed it I mean somebody passed out this brochure from 1923 a developer is developing this lot this this land to make money that's what developers do and people bought the homes to make money and after that they don't want any change so everyone come through the township I love the township but I don't want any change I think change is inevitable and I think it's important to look at what would if where would I be living if people and protested against my development and they won where would I be living if people objected to the development that I live in and that's always something I think about when I listen to people who have very real concerned and I want to thank everyone for coming because you've been following this for a year or more um as Mr V said there's a lot of passion in the room and it's understood um we as a board can control the applications that come before us we can't say um we don't want to see the application we have to deal with what application do we receive and as Mr all pointed out Mr fola pointed out there have been a lot of changes to this application and it's because of the input from from from the general public from from the neighborhood and I personally always appreciate the input because you live there and you know what going on much more so than I do but in terms of the law the master plan in terms of what we're allowed to look at and what we can decide upon I think Mr Mr Woodford just did a great job of elaborating on all those things um so um I think it's going to be a nicel looking development they're going to comply with the ordinances for development and um in terms of the the master plan right now the master plan says what it says but realistically we're no longer going to be looking at three acre zoning we're no longer going to be looking at two acre one acre it's just not feasible no one's building that anymore everyone's building high density anywhere you go in New Jersey around the country it's just not something people can't afford it so this is sort of like one step toward where the master plan needs to go and so for for those reasons um you know I'm in favor of the project as well and I think looking at the the the parameters by which we need to make this decision I would approve the project other board members comments I'll just comment on the the uh a lot said about traffic now I'm going to draw a rough equivalence and and I don't have the long history that as L history as some to hear but I would compare the the Springbrook to mount kemell to punch bowl Madison Avenue Fair I live in a community with I think 170 or 180 units we're not the driver of traffic and I never almost never have to wait to get in and out of my there's no traffic jam from 180 units to get out of our private our private road entry Lee you drive it all the time correct I substantiate what you're saying in terms and and I'm just also comment on the safety issue so I've been driving punch Ball Road for over eight years now I've seen a golf ball once in eight years I've never seen a golfer out to retrieve one either so it and I'm a golfer okay and and yeah I have a slice I have problems too but it's just I don't know about safety issue there I just don't I just don't see it and I drive by a fairway every day for what that's worth that's my observation and Lee drives from the other direction and I think he would agree with me on what I'm saying I do agree I I border a golf club my residents um some of the houses that are near the the club C an occasional ball um in terms of the fencing that we were talking about are the netting earlier I think that can be determined at at a later Point um I do know the Mars County golf club has erected large netting and and stuff but you know I don't think that needs to be addressed at this point it can be addressed later on but um but not on Long pun Road correct by some backyards well up at the main entrance to the club itself to protect you know the members Etc but um I agree with what you're saying in terms of the safety and the traffic we um Mr chair we had a an agreement or something was brought up that brought up about 55 and older right what are the steps that need to be taken to ensure that it's 55 and over or is it just a promise or no be the resolution but doesn't that have to go to the state doesn't have to get approved by the state well they would have to um file it's been a while since I did it because people don't do so many anymore but there there is this procedure that they would file it would also be in the master deed restriction in terms of the age requirements the the statute if I recall properly is that the one um one owner not owner one occupant has to be at least 55 um the the spouse for example could be younger um I do think there's a limitation that no one under the age of 18 can live there but there's also an 8020 rule with that 55 and older where like that only only really applies to 80% of the units 20% it doesn't have to apply to them it's kind of falls into the developers hands a little bit the reason why there's that exception is because let's say you're 55 but your wife is 50 and you pass away and you own the house together so now it you know it goes to her she's 50 they can't really force her out right so so that's why there's that 20% kind of leeway and it's it's really about the occupants not the owners okay so if it's not 55 and older let's say it's not they don't file or what have you then that would be would that be according to the owner's own testimony that he and his friends were going to live there well I think that be a violation of any fair housing since we are changing the rules no the the they would follow the um the housing act that creates 55 and older right um what the testimony was from Mr toia that even if it's not 55 and older he thinks it would go that way anyway because of the cost of the house the style of the home uh the the project itself he he foresaw that most of the people who would buy and own there would be 55 and older right right right but I guess by my concern is is that let's say it's not 55 and older and we're going to change the zoning law well it's not zoning it's a restriction on this particular development we're GNA change it right that it would be 55 and older this development okay but what if he doesn't get it approved from the state what if he they would it would it would yeah I don't have any okay any doubt that if they took the proper steps to create it as a 55 and older the permits wouldn't the certificate of occupancy wouldn't even issue because they'll have to um go down their compliance checklist before they can get cosos right and that would be one of the things they'd have to comply with okay and there are no restrictions on marketing because he did say that he and his friends and five friends would be there right and if we're opening this up to everyone which would be fair then how would we deal with that because I don't want to be part of something that's going to violate any fair housing laws and it wouldn't it it would be in compliance with um the ACT creating a 55 and older development right and that would be spelled out in their Master de anybody else any other members of board any comments I just want to Echo what Mr uh said as far as that the reason why this is ostu because it was owned by the golf course and there wasn't any reason to consider it being anything but open space at that the last we uh look at the master plan and therefore it's something that's come before this without the master plan having uh address this specific unit and therefore I think the goals of the master plan are being followed by uh granting this variance these variances are approving this application that's as how I see it any other board members will any comments so are we ready for a vote or a motion s there were there was another issue on the welcome sign oh well I unless I just misunderstood some of the things here you guys are willing to put up a welcome to Spring Brook sign I'm not sure where that would go but the condition would be that it would go to the TCC for location and and maintenance would be done by the Association correct right yes if the neighborhood doesn't want it yeah it sounds like the neighborhood doesn't want it I wouldn't include that as a condition yeah yeah I no that's fine the neighbors don't want it we won't we won't do it yeah I think they were putting it in because they thought it was wanted right okay we that okay all right that and with the conditions as outlined by Mr do I have a motion so moved move to approve the application motion to approve with the conditions listed by Mr R and for the reasons enumerated by the chairman yes okay do I have a second I'll second Santiago roll gold yes Mr Jaber yes Mr William no Mr Schuster yes Mr benois yes Mr Kramer yes Mr wer yes okay I will have a resolution to you Frank for review sooner or later but I need a transcript I got you thank you thank you Bor appreciate it okay okay if there any other matter oh yeah yeah yeah okay no got it got it okay your thing no okay than okay we have there any other matter for the board to consider this meeting if not we're going to swear you in at the next meeting okay only take a couple minutes we'll do it then the planning board adustment rules the rules Behavior the rules of behavior whatever no the word I I'm rewriting your bylaws I wasn't thinking of bylaws okay didn't we get something in the mail with the package on on to conduct meeting it's a tough one no any other any other matters to the board if not motion toour motion toour second second all in favor weed last week get what's happening you guys