i wanted to do that before we start Sorry Okay I see by my uh You got to do it too I know Handy dandy telephone that it is 6 o'clock I would like to call to order the Tuesday April 1
2025 regular meeting of the Mound Planning Commission Roll call please Planning Commissioner Council Leaison Kathy Mcani I Planning Commission Member Sherry Wallace here Planning Commission Member
Jason Baker here Planning Commission Member Drew Heel here Planning Commission Member Samantha Wacker here Planning Commission Member Kristen Young here Planning Commission Chair David Good here We do have one amendment to the
agenda Uh if you look down under number six we have A B and B So the last B is being changed to C So I would like to make a motion to amend the agenda for today to have the
next meeting Tuesday May 6 be reflected as 6C And would that include approval of the agenda and approval of the agenda as distributed we have a motion Do we have a second i second We have a second
Discussion hearing none All those in favor signify by saying I I Those opposed nay Motion carries Next we have minutes of the March 4 2025 regular meeting of the commission Does anybody have
any suggested changes to those minutes hearing none chair would entertain a motion to approve the March 4 2025 regular meeting minutes Motion to approve the March 4th meeting minutes as distributed
Have a motion Do we have a second second We have a second Discussion hearing none All those in favor signify by saying I I Those opposed nay Motion carries Board of adjustment and appeals We have review
SLR recommendation one-year extension for expansion permit approved for 4870 Edgewater Drive This is planning case 24-04 James Barnes is the sponsor Yes ma'am Uh good evening members of the
planning commission staff and guests Uh I'm Sarah Smith I'm the development director and I'll be providing a summary overview of the request that we have received from the Barnes family Uh they are the owners of the property at 4870
Edgewater Drive And about a year ago uh they submitted and received approval uh of an expansion permit to allow a house remodel and addition project at 4870 Edgewater Drive and have been making uh plans and doing activities to get ready
for their project Uh however they have encountered some unforeseen delays with plan preparation and also procurement with uh general contractor and so they have uh come to the city requesting an extension uh for a one-year period Uh
that activity is allowed under the current regulations as long as it's submitted 30 days before the expiration and they provide reason uh for the extension Uh Mr Barnes is here and he did provide us a request uh to staff re
requesting that they be granted a one-year extension Uh they are moving forward and things are coming together but um not not certain that that could take place before the expiration uh at the uh on in and at the end of May So he
is here um staff has recommended approval of the of the extension We don't see these that often but they do come up from time to time Um and so uh that's why we're here this evening and Mr Barnes is kind enough to join us and he'll be happy to answer any questions
or detail but that allowance is included uh in the current regulations for expansion permit and staff feels that it's a reasonable request based on the scope of their project to request some additional time So I'll stand for any questions Otherwise I will uh stand for
questions afterwards Question for Sarah Looks pretty straightforward The comments applicants been very nice to work with as well Comments from the commission Mr Barnes would you like to uh address
the commission i don't have any questions really or anything to address I'm happy to answer any of your questions Okay Our protocol would be sir uh that you uh you don't have to take your jacket Please state your name and your address
Good evening chair members of the planning commission James Barnes uh 4870 Edgewater Drive Um I really don't have anything else to add to that but I'm here to answer any questions you might have Questions for Mr Barnes hearing none thank you for coming
forward Back on some things are straight Okay On page seven of your agenda you will note that staff has recommended that the planning commission recommend to the city council that a one-year extension be granted for the expansion
permit in question Chair would entertain a motion Make a motion to approve the one-year extension for expansion permit for plumbing case number 2404 Have a motion Do we have a second second Second We have a
second Further discussion Hearing none All those in favor signify by saying I I Those opposed nay Motion carries Good luck Thank you Mr Bars Thank you Mr Barnes Thanks for coming in consent agenda for next Tuesday Okay
Thank you Take care Great to see you again New slash old business I guess it's actually old slash new business The first item is 2025 planning commission work plan
review slashd discussion setbacks for corner lots Miss Rita give me one second because I just realized that I picked up the wrong PowerPoint We don't really want to talk about a variance You want to talk
that a different one All [Music] right All right Good evening members of the commission and public uh Rita Trap city's planning consultant We are working this evening on one of our first
elements on the 2025 work plan Um we as is stated in the packet we are looking for your input and a good discussion Uh I don't have any recommended language as you saw um partly because this has been kind of a confusing element of the code
to apply And so some discussion this evening will help uh me understand kind of what the desire and the vision of the planning commission and potentially the council is and then I can go back and work on drafting changes um and try and figure out how to make it easier Um
while I was putting together your packet materials I was chuckling to myself when I got to the end because I thought "Wow if I'm confused you're probably confused." And now you see why we needed to talk about it because it was very confusing to apply when we did last year And this was something we talked about a
couple of cases uh last year which is what prompted us to really realize um how it's challenging to apply and very confusing And so there are some strategies that I'll kind of talk about as I work through Um they may work for you they may not There's just some things that we do see in other
communities or we work with other communities on some language that maybe would make it easier So that's some of the things we'd like to talk about Um so relative to corner lots what I tried to do is I pulled out any place uh in the code that referenced corner lots The
there are two things I didn't pull out because I felt like we had enough already And one is fences Um and one is the site vision triangle And I can I can talk about those I was not thinking we were going to talk about fences I figured we had enough with just principal structures and potentially accessory structures Um and if we get
past those and it seems like based on your direction that we would want to revisit them I'll bring it back up If not if it kind of feels like it makes sense um then I'll just kind of highlight it later But I really want to understand where should we go with this um because it's it's a lot currently
Um I would encourage you because this is just a discussion if you have a question about some of this foundational stuff that I'm going through please stop me um and make sure that we all understand So I included all the way back to just fundamental definitions um because of the fact that it's a little bit
confusing So uh corner lot this is the specific direction uh in your code today A corner lot is at the intersection of two streets Uh I included in the packet you can see in the PowerPoint on the bottom right just an example of a corner lot So the intersection of two streets
Um you also do have something called a through lot And the only reason I brought it up was to make sure we're all clear is that when we're we're really talking about when two streets intersect at a 90 degree angle When a lot is between two streets um such as a through lot in that
picture here between two streets that's considered a through lot That's a whole different conversation and we're not having that conversation today There are idiosyncrasies with those as well We certainly have had them Sarah and I have had lots of discussion Today we're only simply talking about corner lots because
that's enough in and of itself Um lot line front I'm not going to read this whole definition This definition is fairly long because when you have a corner lot it had been historically in the past difficult to decide what is the front and what is a side and what is a
rear Um and the city in applying its definitions really wanted to have one front one rear and then the rest be sides And so it's that's what the underlying section of for purpose of this chapter a lot should only have one front setback Um the intention was that
you would only have one rear yard You wouldn't have two rear yards because most of the time your rear yard setbacks are higher than your sideyard setback So this was envisioned to try and make sure that we only had one rear yard So I'm going to go back to here Um and this
project this one is actually a pretty good example of currently it says it's the shortest dimension on a street That's what it says which would mean this would be the rear which mean there need to be 15 ft back But this house is oriented
differently So we added a provision sometime during Sarah and my tenure at this point I don't remember anymore It's been more than a decade probably that allows us to recognize the uniqueness of how a house has been built Um and so in this case we would identify this as the
front of the lot That's really what's acting as the front of the lot That's where the garage is oriented That's where the front door is oriented which means this is the rear of the the lot So that's why that statement says for purposes of this chapter you can only have one front yard Um and that's because we want to make sure that we
know how to figure out what the rear is so we know where that 15 foot applies That gets confusing as we get on to the next sections where we say well you have to have a front on multiple places So that seems already that it's in conflict with each other Um which is why I
brought that up Um so corner lots specifically say they shall provide the required front yards along every street So immediately after saying in the definition you can only have front one front yard we immediately say now you have to apply the front yard on multiple
streets which is confusing Um Sarah and I know how we've applied it in the past but seems like we could maybe clean that up a little bit Um and then we have the exception for lot of records uh which say that if you can have a sideyard setback that's based on the lot width
rather than the standard Um and I provided this table Um and then it has a provision that says if in the end you end up with a greater setback you don't actually need to do that I will show you how that applies in a second because we have another table that summarizes this attempts to summarize all in one big
table um to talk through this So I'll be there in a sec Um it also establishes um the front So this is just an example to help us start working through here So in case this is the street um so now we have a front
yard and we have a front yard and then we have the rear yard So this is saying that we have to have both of these as front yards and the same width on both In the R1 in the specific lot of records we added another layer which is not helpful because not only did we add the
layer now we changed how we measure it And we added the layer that if you have a front yard that is based on the lot depth not on the lot width which is what the other standard says in the other section of the code So now we use
both lot width and lot depth to calculate the front yard setback But that only applies to R1 and not R1A and R2 I feel like I'm in a movie like the Clue movie where I'm like and then this happens and then you go back and anyway basically my long and short is this is really confusing
It's very confusing to apply and we know what we're doing So it's very difficult for anybody else to read the code and these sections are all in three different places of the code So you actually have to know to look for all of those places So it would be great if we could clean all of that up and make it
much more straightforward And the question is do we really need to have all of this that's my fundamental question of all of these exceptions and things And maybe we do And if we do that's great It'd be just nice to have the conversation So um this is our
attempt Now I make no promises because this stuff was all confusing This is our attempt to put everything in one table So that way we can kind of see things and how it applies Um so we have the R1 district the R1 lot of record the R1A and the R1A
lot of record We did not include R2 and R2A because generally R2 and R2A follows R1 and R1A for a single family home So that's why I didn't include it because they are virtually the same Um and this is where you can kind of see where we have depths and widths um and different
types of requirements based on different elements And this is where I crossed this out That was that provision This is easier to see here The provision that says you'd have a smaller setback except for if we require a bigger setback because of your lot width then you don't have to do it You can go back to your 20
foot This is an example of this Like it requires a 30 so you go down to the 20 and so that it's irrelevant anymore um for those things So it's so can we make it easier that's my long and short question to this whole thing And then just a note this is just about principal
structures We do need to have a separate discussion follow-up discussion on accessory structures because we the case that we dealt with in the past was actually an accessory structure where it was in the rear yard and we have provisions that make it be significantly
away from the street Um but it's in the rear yard of a corner lot where they actually would like some space and they would like to use it So does it need to be 20t away does it really need to be that distance and that's separate and we'll have that conversation in a bit I think it's too much if we try and put
all of these things in at once So I'd like to just talk about principal structures and I will go back to the foundation of like why do we even have this that would probably be helpful So if we this one is just R1 and R1A Typically the reason that you have
corner yard setbacks are two twofold One is to make sure that at the street corner itself that you can see that there's a vision and that you don't have anything obstructing your vision So you can see down the street as you're taking a right turn You can see down the street as you're taking a left turn off the street So you kind of want to make sure
it's clear Um I reference slight vision triangle and that's a term that says within um 30 feet of the corner you can't have anything that is too tall you can generally only have things that are like I have the thing like 4 in um to
whatever four feet or something you can have a very short amount So that's one element of why we do it We also do this uh idea of maintaining a larger uh yard because if there was a house here they would prefer that you don't
have structures that are kind of 10 feet in front of where they are So if they have to have a 20 foot front side setback they would they don't really want to have structure So it looks kind of odd where you'd have all the houses aligned at a certain setback in their front yards and then you get to the
corner and everything's kind of scooched over And that's one of the reasons that communities typically have some sort of language about front yard setback Now the distance is really dependent from place to place Sometimes it's the same as the front yard Sometimes there's
other um measurements that people might use And oftentimes principal and accessory structures are treated slightly different um because of their feel and fences But that's the reasoning behind it is that you're trying to make it feel similar to the other and you're not bouncing back and forth Um I know
when we had our conversation last year there was a you know the note of if it's a really busy street then the orientation is a little bit different and how people think about those lots So that is a part of the conversation whether that applies to principal structures or just accessory structures
We can have that conversation Um and I did pull from the comprehensive plan because I had mentioned it at the time Um this map does not work but I just wanted to reference currently today your existing roadway functional class So functional class is kind of how is that roadway envisioned to be used Is it a
roadway that's intended to move traffic through the community with fewer driveways moving at a faster speed or is it meant to be a local street um that really provides each of us access to our individual properties those are kind of the range of the spectrum The terminology used in the transportation
community are u minor arterials collectors and local streets This currently the way the system was set up at the time we did the last comp plan doesn't have as much nuance as we might like Um but the future one actually has more nuances and I know you can't see it
as well Um but at the time there was discussion about new collectors being established Um like for example Three Points would be a minor collector and that was the street um that the corner yard that we dealt with last year was on Um and there's other streets that maybe
this mechanism is something for us to think about that if you're a corner and your your sideyard your street sideyard is abuing one of these major streets then we have a little bit different approach I'm not advocating I'm just saying that that is an approach that
some communities use So I still feel like I didn't do a good job and I didn't make this simple but I'm not really sure how to make this simple Um I do think that the foundational question is do we want to treat street
sideyards so these if the house is facing this direction do we want to we do we want to treat those the exact same as the other front yard do we want to provide some some setback or a relief does it matter how wide or how deep
things are because that's the reason that we did that So it might be easier rather than looking at these numbers and analyzing them to death it might be easier to just talk about the foundational things of is it important to you to continue to have this and what what might it look like and then I can
go back and do some more analysis and figure out the numbers We don't have to debate the numbers tonight I'm just trying to get a sense at the vision of does in concept does this make sense if so what are you trying to achieve and then I can figure out how how do we set up the table so they're easier and we
don't have this confusion So what questions can I answer what thoughts do people have yes This isn't really a question but to use your words since you and Sarah have been dealing with this for decades and
you you take it upon yourselves to take care of it and I know we've talked about a couple of these in the planning meeting What would your recommendation be to simplify things i know you're looking for discussion No that's okay I'm sure you'd really talk about this
One thing I'd really like to see is to stop using the term front yard for the for this So one thing we've gone because my firm now does a lot of zoning code updates and one thing we've gone to
is the idea of an interior um interior sideyard and a street sideyard So that takes the place of having to say well you have a front yard on both If you have a street if you have something on a street then you might have a bigger setback So that's one
thing I think would be helpful so that you truly only have one front yard because I think that is that's the first thing that's confusing Can I can I ask a question on the when you talk about front yard you used an example there
where it wasn't totally clear and I've seen others that aren't to their front door might be here and their driveway might be here Do you then default to the front being the shortest like your the shortest width i think that's a bigger
issue for me as well too which is the front which is the front of the house Yeah where the front door is Wouldn't that be logical well like on this example right here if the front door is facing the long street right that would be the front of the house That's the front of the house but not by code It we have the ability to apply either way You
can do that Oh that's why we have it written that way is that okay when when there's no question it's easy for the applicant to see oh it's the shortest dimension on a street That makes sense That's my front yard But when it is in question we have the ability to turn it
uh and make it fit the actual application of the property So the front yard's where the front door is basically generally start with that but okay I think there's flexibility in that Gotcha Okay I do think that there is I don't
know that there's a way of making that easier I'll be honest Yeah Like I otherwise there's going to be so many caveats I think it's a yeah we have to kind of come to an agreement that planning staff planning commission and council are the ones that can decide and
bless that at a certain point Well and the other issue we had with that was a lot of the streets and mount in three points the lakeshore lots the side is the house but you have the 50ft setback
for the lake which they consider the front yard right but we never Yes But we've never considered the lakeside the front yard No And I had a community that did that and that is the worst because the interior lots like on the island on
three points The people that are not lakes shore the front of their lot is the part that hits the street And then if you consider and use the word front to be the lake then your front yard is constantly backing boopping back and forth Which is why we went to you know you have a lake shore setback of 50 feet
You have a street setback there We we got rid of front because it was confusing historically For 50 years they had it We went with there's a street That's what your setback is to the street The street makes sense to me And I one of the things that I get concerned about is the the sighteline right like
you were saying uh around the corner Yeah And that's I we don't have to dive too deep into it but that's what this is about is that there is a distance that you can't put um things that impede the
vision So yeah that's to some degree that's identified there that deals with fences and landscaping and other kinds of things that would go there 30 foot triangle but why is it 43 feet yep that is in your code today and I intend to
look at that and fix that I did not make the drawing Oh is it supposed to be 30 supposed to be 30 It's a weird It's a way of doing the math Yeah it's a way of doing the math And the one thing we'll tighten up is whether that's for you guys it probably needs to be edge of pavement because your right ofways are
all wonky Um some communities we we are specific about is it edge of rightway or edge of pavement Um for you guys knowing everything I do we're probably edge of pavement So side Whoops Sorry I like the graphic better Sideyear interior Is that
what it is side yard Sideyard interior Sorry So the interior sideyard a side year A sideyear interior You just have a typo Oh Oh sorry That's another It's a typo Sorry A side yard interior That is
the street the house inside Yeah It's best seen here Yeah Okay Right here So you have the interior one and then you have the street one So we're not so concerned about the interiors the exterior Correct And even though the street And even though you have the
lines that come forward that whole thing is front This part right yeah Yes What is it now it's 20 ft Uh well say that again What is it now what's the Well you have 30 feet for non
corner non-c corner house 30 Oh yeah It's 30 for R1 but it's 20 for R1 and that's why Okay Yeah Thank you Yep Um so that are we Let's go to the fundamental Does it make sense that we have a
different or like in increased street setback so that we make sure to push the house back from the street that we wouldn't apply the six foot or the 10 foot which is your traditional side yeah keep it just simple So yes we should increase it Does
it make sense that if you have a narrower lot that you may not have to do in like in the R1 i'm gonna um you can see here this was just an example The one on the right that's just an example of a lot of record that would it make sense that
your street would go down to 20 feet because you're not as wide as you are deep So you wouldn't have as much Why would they so like if here if you applied 30 30 this is 30 Yep Yeah And 30
Okay But this one our one lot of record says this is 30 and this is 20 So it gave some relief because it's not very wide It gives you more buildable area So the white is how much room you have to build your structure So that's the relief you have today And it varies just
going back here quickly It varies based on your lot width So if you have a narrower longer lot you don't have to have as much as if you have a wider lot That's how it currently is structured And if that makes sense to you do we
really need three levels um do you want to have that much so basically if you have a narrow lot that's only 50 feet wide you only have to have a 10 right which might make sense because 50 feet is not very wide to start with So if you
have a 30 foot setback you're going to be in trouble Correct That's why that has been done Makes sense But okay So So I'm hearing Yes that it makes sense that we provide some
relief that they're not as wide Well if we're saying lots can be that corner lots can be that size then these are lots of records So these are things that have already existed and we we did kind of a sampling and they really vary a lot
And do we have different a different uh rule for new lots as far as So new lots are these lot of records and older Oh gotcha So any new lot just you don't have any relief You're just you are what you are Most of the lots in the
community though are lot of record and so these kinds of standards apply Gotcha So I'm hearing yes it makes sense to have some type of additional setback for a street It does make sense that we might have some tearing just because it
to provide relief so we can provide I'm not asking for the numbers We'll look at it and say h it's reasonable that we might want to continue to have the taring or maybe we don't have to have the taring So that makes sense to folks Um I seem to go back to this because I always
I think it makes sense to reterm how you talk about it as far as front a front and a street side and an interior side Yeah Okay I I don't know if I have an answer as to
why this provision So in the R1 section it says lots of records use lot depth to me to well they use that to to determine let me rephrase the statement I know I I think I finally can explain this That's the hard part
This provision in your code says that if you don't have as deep of a lot then you can have a shorter front yard setback So if I go to this diagram oops two if this is not as deep as traditional because
you do have some of these that are wide They're kind of squat Let's say they're squat lots You know they're really wide and they're not very deep So then it's really hard to get 30 feet and then have a reasonable house behind it So that's what that extra provision was about And
I think that makes sense I think where we started to have a challenge was we would because of the other statement that says you have to apply front yard setbacks two corner lots That means you also have to apply this standard to that But it
sounds like we can make it make sense and we could ignore this for streets if we don't need it that we could use lot with for that I I don't know that I said that in a way that really makes sense So I apologize But what that provision was saying if we
look at here if you have a not deep lot then you can reduce this front yard and that's just for R1 though Yeah just for R1 Yeah But because of the way that the rest of the code is wording it also meant that we had to apply that standard
when we had a street sideyard because it said all the lots have to follow the front yard setback So that applied that meant we had to apply something a relief for both depth and width simultaneously to
that street sideyard But if we don't need to we're okay not doing that We can just make it make sense I'm assuming like if you have this much then you can do this much So I think that's where we have too
many overlapping layers which happens in our code sometimes and we can pull that one out and that'll make things a little easier So we're okay if we just apply one standard If we want relief if we're going to give
relief here it's because this is not as wide as one would want and we don't have to worry about the depth in that place All right So R1 is there any reason that folks feel like these aren't the right
numbers Let me think about that Do they seem to be the right numbers to you these are the numbers you have always had I don't think that has been a challenge in them I I think these are a little wonky 5% Those I might clean up a little bit The fact that they're
different is a little weird One is 81 Anyway those kind of things but the actual numbers 10 20 30 20 24 30 I felt like we haven't had issues Do you in the R1 So just looking at just I think the the
R2s and the R1's will we have to look at But the top one's depth and middle one's width That's difference What oh they are They are But you were saying why the numbers were different 40 to 50 versus No What i I just don't know if these are the right brakes Yeah I mean I mean like
why 80 is 80 the right number or why the weird part to me is this 81 81 or more So if it's 80 it doesn't the code today doesn't actually count if you're 80.6 very well because it just says 81 or more and it
says 51 to 80 This one accounts better This one says well 50.5 doesn't work either Yeah I know So we have to clean that part up in the code So So you're going to clean those up yeah I'll clean those up So 10 of 50 is what 20% And 20 of 80 is more than 20% Well why would
you just do 50 to 100 make it easy Anything and then simple simplify it Maybe maybe make it 20% I don't think we want to tie down anything quite yet Make it like two tier versus three tiers I don't you've got three tier two tiers
Well and really this tier isn't a tier because you're hitting 30 again So I don't I'm trying to figure out if we even need to state that You know if your lot is between this and this it's 20 If it's between this and this it's 10 Maybe we don't need to do this I don't know Uh
that's the part that you don't have to worry about today I just want to make sure I'm understanding that we like it We will clean that part up That it still makes sense to have relief for these not as wide lots Y that there's anything else about setbacks that bugs
you This is a great chance if there's anything else that has seem like it doesn't make sense over the years All right if that's the case then let's talk a little bit about accessory structures Um I only put the in this
diagram I only put um the accessory front yard setbacks And we're actually going to probably go back to the other diagram because these diagrams don't work quite well for this but it says all accessories buildings shall meet the same front yard setbacks as the principal building So that applies to
corner lots And the question is is that what you actually want to do so if you have a house here do you want the principal or the accessory building the shed to have to match everything of the principal building or is there ever a case where
an accessory building can be closer to the to the street mr Hill says "No." Why would Yeah Why would I ever do that You just approved a variance for it Yeah So the one that You have done it Yeah So and I'm okay I didn't mean it flippantly but you just
literally did it So are we defining accessory structures as permanent accessories a shed Yeah Like a shed But a Yeah but a shed could be a manufactured shed but those would count Same setbacks Okay Yep So in that case
the one that we just had was on three points and they wanted to be closer to the street right mhm Um now in that case I think we factored in topography um because there was a hill We factored in the fact that it was um that street that it was getting closer to was on
three points There was a hill separating that area and the house behind that's the only one we've ever done that I'm aware of So there was another one on tuxedo or something like that Okay But and we can continue to do it and use the variance process There's there's not a wrong in
doing that But it's good to talk about it at the same time is are there situations where we would allow it closer because I think at the time we talked about well it's a busy street and it's I wish this was almost flipped now because we all have that that property in our heads right but it's flipped
around Um you know but this this corner lot is basically not able to use this entire backyard for purposes They already have kind of a scrunched yard So is it nice that they get a little bit more space no just keep it simple And if
they want a bearings just come in for a bearings But what would be the practical difficulty i mean I I am I'm I'm only asking I'm kind of pushing back a little bit because if they come in and say "Well I want to be closer to the street but the code doesn't allow it." And they say
"Well I'd like a little bit more yard space." and we say yes then why do they get the variance and not the person who just follows the code and doesn't go through the process of asking for the variance because they went through the process and ask for the variance But is it does it is it fair is it worth the money and the time for you and for them
to go through that process if you're going to allow that every time they come in and have that as the reason those are just things to think about I agree I mean I I don't know if we would allow it every time they they came through but I mean consistency is always good Well there have you'd have to assess the
reason for wanting to be closer I mean Yep I mean I'm I'm I'm trying to think about a good reason for it I mean for me having had a corner lot I would be like but I'm already having two you know a whole side exposed And wouldn't it be nice if I could put my
accessory structure a little bit closer and have a more private yard space and I know I bought the corner lot Actually I didn't I moved into my spouse's corn But I understand you get more backyard by doing it That's the issue Yeah Yeah More sideyard backyard because you right now
your whole sideyard your whole your part of your backyard you don't get to use the same way others do Again not advocating playing devil's advocate here to make sure that we think through it Happy with what I have a question regarding the code Um at what point is a
permit required on an accessory structure what's the size 200 ft 200 So that's pretty large Yeah But a two but a shed still has to meet the setback requirements even if it's not permit Even if it even if you don't need a building permit it still has to be
whatever the zoning is based on where it's going Oh okay Even if it's a 4x4 sh Right Right But they might not come to you for that is what I'm saying They may just Oh yeah that always happened I mean
that's always a possibility that people and that's more about enforcement then at that point Yeah What do others feel like i know and I'm fine I'm happy if would it'd be nice to have some consensus so I know which direction Well like the one three points bring it back They already had a fence
there Mhm Because it was a busy road Yep Oh it was behind But you can do a fence below a hill Below a hill and behind a fence Yeah Yeah That was a weird one and and it wouldn't have made any sense to move it towards the other person's property Yeah Even though that was the
right argument but it you know sometimes it just makes sense depending on the topography Right Right So the fence has to meet the principal setback if it's six feet or
higher That's what this diagram is right on a corner You can be four feet in this Oh yeah Oh okay Yes Within Yeah That's double frontage This is four feet Yes And then this is six feet So So within both both
frontages of both public streets built it's you're limited to four feet Four feet I'm just asking the question because you brought up the you brought up the fact that they had a fence and that factored in So if someone built a 4ft fence trees down would that affect
people's perception of whether you could build an accessory structure in that street sideyard or not is there a setback on the fence then or is the fence right up on the property line nope You see this dark area yeah that's that's where you can have a
sixoot fence Oh gotcha In this area this is where you can have a 4ft fence And that again is because of that vision element And the road is the dark Yeah The road is the dark That's right Away And I only mentioned that because how that factors into what you just said Well theirs was different because it was down a hill Yeah Yeah Totally
But it is all factored together That's why all these things are layered And how does it affect our perception of can do can't do Well and you know with mound everything is most lots are so unique Which is why we see a lot of variance
requests So for sure I can I totally agree trying to simplify this would make everybody's life easier Yes What I'm hearing clearly from Mr Hill which is fine I just don't know the rest of you And if that's because said it was easy
Make it easy She said make it easy Oh which would be make sure that they have to meet the that's fine Is that what everybody thinks that for an accessory structure you should meet the principal setbacks well if we agree with the setbacks isn't that what we're talking about here What
if we agree with the setbacks aren't we trying to understand if we want to switch the setbacks with this i think what I heard was we like the concept of the setbacks and we have it today but they're confusing So if we can make them read easier that's really what we're
looking for Is that what I heard from everybody like we're okay with the idea that you'd still have to have 30 feet on the street sideyard if you're an R1 lot similar to the front If you were a lot of record and you were
built not quite so wide then you get a little bit of relief like six feet or 10 feet That's what I thought I heard Yeah Is that we're okay with the concept It's just our code is convoluted to apply right now and if we could put everything in one place that would make life easier
Does that do you agree with that 100% Yeah Okay So I feel like I So then the question is I think I heard just now that accessory structures we're going to treat them the same and it's just we need to get the language in the code clearer than we had it today So if you have a garage or a shed in the
backyard you're going to have to be inside this white area and you can't be any closer to the street That's how I vote Yep I know what you think The rest of you I kind of want to make sure before I go down the meetings this morning I'm good
All right Do the rest of the commissioners agree with what you just said i guess I have one question though is if if the house was built in such a way that they're at 15 feet instead of 20 feet
and so they're non-conforming already right would we say they can't be closer to the street than the the primary house i think how I would do it today is that you'd have to follow the setbacks not
where your line is right because if the line But if the house is already in the line at 15 ft Yeah But then I would think you'd still have to be 20 ft if that's what the code said right for the accessories But does it make Yeah Does that make sense maybe that doesn't make sense Do you agree with that mm-m You would put it You would allow them up to
15 for the accessory No No I would I would want to where the setback is No you and I said the same thing Yeah we said the same thing Oh you disagree I thought we were I thought she said she disagreed with me She did But didn't we say the same i mean there's there's a there's a part of me That's why we need to clean it up Tables tables I tell you
Yes ma'am There's a part of me that thinks that if the house is closer that you could go in the same line for the accessory if there's enough room Part of me was thinking the same thing That's why I was asking Yeah I
just told you what we'd apply today Happy to write it however you think is appropriate I mean that that was is what my gut says Additionally if we were going to give relief we would have to be really careful not to give any relief or put it
any closer on the on the road side the intersecting roadside you know to give them any closer We don't want it closer this way like that corner not to allow any variance into that corner What do other people think of that i I
was just thinking if it if they're at 18 ft to avoid a variance as long as an accessory structure is at 18 ft too I wouldn't care versus What do other people think i disagree I would think you'd have to do the whatever the new
rules and regulations are you have to follow those You can't grandfather a new a new building a new structure into an old grand into an old clause I I wouldn't do it but I'm just one vote one voice in the choir
others Why would you want the um accessory structure to be different and how would you word that oh I don't know how I would word that That's not fair We're not there yet Um one thought that had crossed my mind was if there was
some way of doing it through the expansion permit process and not strategically in the code So there is a way of doing it that doesn't But that part I'm not at I wasn't I wasn't sure if you guys were getting there yet I I don't know The only reason I can
see letting the accessory structure do anything different is just the notion of some of the lots are really hard to do stuff on and so the uniqueness of whatever But that's why you always have the variance process too Yep Right So I'm I'm happy either direction It's just
making sure we think through it That's all I That's all I want feel like a parent All I want make sure you think that'll it makes the code harder to write if you try to build all those different I would like to um look at the numbers on the width for the in the in
the R1 and the R2 whether or not that's right or wrong And then we have another provision I don't know if we saw it that said if you live here and I live here and if you're in the middle I know I skipped over that you can you can be that the the interior house I didn't
know We've I don't know if we've used that but we But what happens if I live here and this lot's vacant do we use that same thing and this is straight most cities that have that provision have like it's longer than yours that have a little bit more like here's how
you do it with these different situations Yeah And we haven't used it very often Uh we've it's it's come up when we've had a vacant lot and a neighbor We we have not seen too many vacant lot or or neighbor neighbor vacant lot where you get the average
between the two or or that you're not going in front But it's just yet another thing for us to look at Yes And I didn't include that because I didn't want that next layer Right Which I'm find that you mentioned No I know I know I didn't add it here because that's like one more thing that we have to figure out how it
fits into the rest of your um maybe the fit in is that it probably just needs to maybe be evaluated whether or not it needs to stay Maybe that's the first thing I don't know Yeah that's part of that whole section
that you and I are also Yeah I I would say one of the most frustrating things that we've seen is that the rules are in many different areas and we work in it every day and we we almost well I think we did miss it on something that we were looking for something and we're
like oh wait a minute is it this one or this one and and because they're not in the correct sections this one of them's in 197 which is yards and most of them were in the the district requirements and some of them might be in the general provision
So getting that in the same place will be helpful for the users but also looking at what the number breaks are You know do you do give a a break on one side Um I don't know if you know if a lot is 50 ft versus if it's 70 ft does
that really change whether or not it should be you know the same or reduced I don't know I think we have to play with it a little bit based on what the intent is So this is the provision she was referring to which is interesting because if you recall R1 is the one that
has 30 feet R2 R1A and R2 have 20 feet So this really doesn't do anything for the smaller lots which are R1A and R2 It only really does something It only hits the really the R1's Yeah Um I think we've got some stuff to play Any
other things that folks are thinking that I should incorporate what I just to summarize I'm writing it down now use the word street slum version setbacks are pretty good right now We're going to look at the width depth breakdowns just to make sure they make sense We're going
to leave accessory structures the same um we just need to make that clear how to to handle things and that we think that the relief is a good relief and then we're going to revisit this averaging um provision to see if it makes sense
Fix the wording on the 30 foot corner visibility triangle Yeah that's site triangles We have a diff we have a new diagram too that we use that we can think about overall We actually are going to revisit this entire section just as a preview for you Um it's a it's
a it's a heavy section that could use a little bit of clarity and cleanup So we've already started it but Sarah gave me permission to move it around even more than I did So I'm going to probably move it around even more than I did um to try and make it a little bit easier for us to apply So um we probably will
come back with just this stuff but then ultimately when we go to the adoption process it'll be part of a bigger but just so that we have you remember it I'll probably I'll try and come back and whatever our next meeting is and have you review it while it's still somewhat fresh instead of waiting a little longer That's great Some of these charters that
you're up here weren't part of our packet Correct They they're kind of interesting Means charts tables Yeah this one with the corner lot it's easy to identify what the issue is Where
can we access those i mean I can we can definitely send you this PowerPoint Um okay Yes that' be great I that was you didn't have it because I needed to really figure out how to write these in a way that made sense Okay So yes sir And I'm going to fix the spelling thing
before we send any other conversation I got Okay Further input for reading Can you go back to that last slide you had up there slide or the code language code language I just Sorry I caught
something caught my eye Highlighted No building permit shall be issued for any lot or parcel which is not but a dedicated approved Nope It's a double negative No building shall be Never mind Doesn't make sense to me but okay Basically
you're supposed to be on an actual improved public street You can't be just on something that has uh on the plat it shows a street but you really are doing a driveway back to it You need to be on public street Okay Oh I see Okay Okay It's the concept is standard The
language I don't know Sorry I digress No that's okay Double negatives are tough It's not unusual for double negatives Okay For your comments for reading Thank you Mr I just have one quick it's probably a naive question but if a
property is on a dead end does that typically align up more with like that typical definition what i don't know if I understood the question Well like a dead end So yeah No I understood that part but what is the next part of So when we're talking about the definitions of a typical th through
corner or lake shore does a dead end typically does it live in one of those or can it be in a couple typically Well I mean technically it could be in a couple because sometime every it's not very common Every once I think my house falls in that category and I was trying to figure out where I put a shed So this
is why I was thinking about yeah every once in a while you can have a property that's on a culde-sac like on the bulb part of a culde-sac and then behind it have another street Every once in a while that does happen Typically they're going to be more considered an
interior lot or a typical lot because you'll have properties on both sides of you and behind you They are odd with the way that they come towards the street and they narrow but there is a provision in the code particularly for the front yard element of like you're supposed to
have so many feet uh it's not in here exactly but so many feet on a right of way in order to have a lot There's a provision that's how you measure it on a culde-sac bulb kind of measure it back at the the setback line so that you get that dimension on a street Yeah And I think I'm kind of more a true dead end
like the road ends and we hit the lake but our house sits with the front yard on the street and our house sits sideways on the lake So typically what we do on those actually and I was just trying to figure out if that would align more with like a typical or a lake shore or you know just thinking about my own
property Yep Um well actually I know this one Fair please I was going to say you could just go to my house I'm on I'm on Black Lake So I don't really want that right true I
think you're over by my house right now No it's your house on the dead end I don't actually know where any of you live Uhhuh Sure That looks kind of like that where the dead end You just hit the lake like and then we're the house that just sits sideways When we apply this we
apply this one to be the front yard setback Okay And this to be the lakeshore setback and this to be a sideyard setback and this to be a rear yard setback Okay Yeah Because this is essentially the front of the house And then if you are constructing a new subdivision you have to make sure
there's enough of public frontage on here to allow for that meeting that requirement of how much is on a street We just had that on the island that Well then you add Pike Road in there There were which then dead ends So you've got
an alleyway basically That's not a That's not a really good one to use So where is your front How's this one you like this one better same concept It's just this is right Because there's the D Yeah The whole alleys fire lanes all that stuff that we have to set aside because that's a whole
different conversation So all right further comments for Rita Thank you Going once twice We'll be back I'll be back Thank you Be back Thank you Thank you for trying to make something out of trying
to make us confusion Yeah Sorry I couldn't make it any simpler to talk about but nice job Thank you very Thank you Yeah [Music] Okay Is that all you have tonight Rita yes sir That's all I have I don't know Sarah and Miss Mcne might have more
stuff I'm just asking about your section Yeah Call him the hammer Okay Uh Kath anything from the city council well I do have a few things
Um to talk about some events coming up and our meeting last week uh Mayor Holt was on spring break so it was a really fast easy agenda It was beautiful and acting mayor Castellano did a heck of a job but we agreed that it might have
been the fastest meeting ever and that doesn't happen very often Um there's a lot of events coming up The um let me get my glasses on so I can read Um I think everybody knows starting today the hydrant flushing started Oh
yeah Yep And that'll go on for about a month Then a fun fact if you didn't know it we mount does have 493 fire hydrants that they have to service Fun fact That's why it takes a month Um the next item is hopefully you all know that
Menita cleanup day is Saturday May 3rd 8 to 3 One of my favorite days of the year The Gillespie Center has really ramped up their efforts and events and there are three coming up um this Thursday bingo at 2 PM The spring flame
which is kind of a new thing it really looks fun is this Saturday with a spaghetti dinner starting at five o'clock from 5 to 8 And then it's going to be featuring music from uh Jeremy and Peter Burke Band 6 PM is the Bob Dylan
show which they'll be doing Bob Dylan music And then they'll um transition into popular cover songs at 7:30 Mhm And that's all on our Facebook page with more information if anybody wants more It looks like a really nice event And
then they're having bingo again on Sunday at 2 p.m On April 9th they're having a paint and sip class Uh it's $40 for all the painting supplies and you get a glass of wine And if you want more wine you can pay for it after that But
that also looks like a fun event April 9th at 6 pm Uh Wednesday April 16th is coffee with the cop day Um to kind of learn what's happening in and around Mound and that's from 7:30 to 8:30 a.m at Caribou
and Mount and that's all I've got Okay Thank you Sarah Anything from you um we have uh permits that were recently
approved for Music in the Park concert series in June July and August Uh we'll anticipate seeing the farmers market uh materials uh come before the council soon Spirit of the Lakes will be in July Uh the council also approved fish fry uh
event uh in June So lots of special events up and coming um in the next couple of months There's also a couple of fishing contests coming up Um the public hearing for the Fern Town Homes is scheduled for the Tuesday April 8th
city council meeting We saw it here at the end of 23 I think And so that preliminary plat the conditional use permit and the vacation are now coming to the council um with addressing uh a lot of the discussion that came from uh
the planning commission So the hearings will be held at Tuesday's council meeting So that's all I have Okay Have they made major improvements to that um deferred lane uh they they've worked to address some of the comments Sure They'll walk through that with the
council Okay Uh next meeting Tuesday May 6 at 6 PM Are there any information items does anyone have anything they'd like to
bring up spoken Hearing none uh chair would entertain a motion to adjurnn Motion to adjurnn We have a motion We have a second Second discussion Hearing none All those in favor signify by saying I I oppose Nay
Motion carried Thanks everyone