##VIDEO ID:S2LeQu0HqJ8## okay folks I see by the clock on the wall it's 7 o' I would like to like to call to order the Tuesday November 19 2024 meeting of the mountain Planning Commission this is a special slash rescheduled meeting you should have an agenda and attachments that were Faithfully submitted to you by Sarah and I'd like to now have roll call please [Music] commission member young here member Rosner here commission member Baker here commission member heel here commission member wer here city council liaison count Planning Commission member me here she not a memory here chair good I'm here sorry chair I'm here go okay um there there is not really an amendment to the agenda the name under planning case 2416 is spelled TI g h e the E got left off of your agenda I do believe the name is spelled correctly um on the attachments okay with that said that chair would entertain a motion to approve the agenda as distributed motion to moove the agenda as distributed second we have a motion to Second discussion hearing none all those in favor signify by saying I I I those oppose nay motion carries moving on number four approval of meeting minutes this would be approval of the October 1 2024 regular meeting chair would entertain a motion to approve the minutes as distributed unless anyone has any changes they'd like to offer motion to approve the minutes second we have motion to Second discussion hearing none all those in favor signify by saying I I those oppose nay motion carries Board of adjustments and appeals we have planning case number 24-16 review SL recommendation variant for house/ additions project 3118 drewy Lane application Mark Ty Kaa and Susan Kaa Tai did I get it right you did thank you yes ma'am good evening good evening good evening good evening I am just actually just doing an introduction um behind me is one of my staff my colleague Mia she is going to actually do the presentation tonight you guys are nice people so it felt like a good place for her to start her presenting on Planning Commission cases so she's the one that prepared the report with obviously Sarah and I um being the the instigators on reviewing and making changes but um I we wanted to give her a chance she's been with h KGI for uh since February I got it right February um so I wanted a chance for her to get out and I need also to have someone else that can be my backup here and get to know the community so she'll be presenting both cases this evening so I know you'll be great and she'll be great but I just want to explain kind of what's happening so it's all yours and you can thank you as Rita said I'm Mia I'll be presenting the two cases tonight um so the first case as you introduced is for 3118 jeury Lane a variance for a house renovation and addition the lot is located um at the corner of Drury Lane and Hampton Road it is a corner lot um currently a single family home built in 1938 along with a detached single car garage um the request is for a variance of 11.4 ft in the front yard setback to allow for a reconstruction of the living room um moving the front entrance which is currently located on the side to the front and for the addition of a front porch um the project also includes an expansion on the second floor and a mudroom on the rear of the house these are conforming the lot is guided as low density residential in the comprehensive plan um this will continue the use as a single family home on this property it is also zoned in R1 single family res residential it is considered a lot of record which means that the front yard setback has been determined to be 30 ft this is based on the lot depth um and the interior sidey yard setback which is the East property line has been determined to be 10 ft this is based on the lot width and the rear yard setback is 15 ft so the proposed addition um is on this lot that's 31,5 3are ft um the current front yard setb back of the house is 25.8 Ft this is non-conforming already and the um proposed front porch set back would be 18.6 ft so that's the variance of 11.4 there um another note is that on grade walks and steps are um allowed to be encroaching in the setback as long as they are not wider than 6 fet um the maximum hard cover on a lot of record is 4 % with the addition the applicant is proposing a total of 33.5% hard cover on the lot um additionally Eaves are allowed to encroach 2 feet into the setback so the existing site conditions um the house as was mentioned was constructed in the 1930s um the front lot line is at an angle to the house and this results in the western Corner being a lot closer to to the lot line than the Eastern corner of the house um currently although the Western corner of the house is non-conforming the Eastern corner is um does meet that 30 foot set setback due to the lot configuration there is limited um space to reconfigure the existing front of the home on the loot um the application was distributed to or notice was distributed to adjacent Property Owners staff consultant um agencies utilities the city engineer responded with no engineering concerns and other than that there were no other comments so um it is we are asking you as plan commission to discuss this request and then take one of the following actions of tbling the request to ask for additional information recommending approval with conditions or recommending denial um stating the finding of a fact so thank you okay questions for Mia Mia did is there a staff recommendation for the case yes we are recommending approval so um it said that the road was changed at some point after it was built do you know how the road was changed before was it was it more curved so that it was actually more facing the road before do we know that was something the applicants stated Sarah I know researched and couldn't find any evidence of that so we didn't put any official information about that because we don't know okay I think it was a widen from when I was pull by previous owners um and then the the there a retaining right house we can ask you later when you come up if you want that's okay I realize y That's fine okay other discussion on the this proposal okay hearing none thank you Mia thank you thank you and uh would the applicants like to come forward and U address the commission sure we would appreciate your names and your address yeah it's Susan Kai it's 3118 Drury Lane in Mound and um would you like me to speak further on absolutely go ahead and offer whatever thoughts you have okay no just I think I think basically that road was uh widened way after the house was initially built and then as you can see it's the way the house is situated on the lot it's at a really wonky angle and uh one corner of the house is within the set back no problem and then the this corner is is within a little bit but um in order for us to uh move the front door the front door and the back door are currently both on the same side of the house which is the side of the house very confusing so we are want to move the front door to the front of the house facing the street where I think it belongs and then uh because there's no entryway um inside uh we want to add a little front porch not not a big one to that outside so there's a little roof over your head when you when you walk in you know to the living room area little buffer so okay all right thank you uhhuh question well hang on oh question questions for the applicants okay hearing none thank you for coming for oh you're welcome thank you all right we've heard Mia we've heard the applicants had a little bit of discussion any further discussion on planning case 24-16 hearing none I note that on page seven of the uh agenda materials there is a recommendation from staff to uh ask us to recommend approval to the city council uh planning case 2416 with four uh four conditions and three findings of fact chair would entertain a motion have discussion can I just ask uh Miss Mia we're just talking about the Western most kind of corner of that front edition would be the only piece that's not conforming right yeah the porch um the setback isn't on there for the Eastern side um but the Western side would be the non-conforming piece um just the POR just the front portion of that Western most like quarter of the addition or third or thereabouts right yeah and and the current house is currently the whole part of the porch right yeah cuz the house is already non-conformity we're expanding the non-conformity are we not yeah and so the rationale for for for approving this would be that with the the angle combined with the fact that it was already non-conforming combined with the fact that we think it might be reasonable that a front door should be facing and a porch would be reasonable there that that would be a reason why we would approve the variance is that sounding right that thought the Practical difficulty of the angle of the road and the existing non-conformity is that sounding right that is sounding right to me yeah okay I would agree sounds right I I don't see any issues that it seems pretty straightforward and common sensical to me me too I would agree I would make a motion then that the if the chair would entertain a motion I did okay uh that the Planning Commission recommend approval of uh the request based on the proposed findings of facts uh provided by staff which I didn't bother to have in front of me when I made my motion there were four conditions and three findings effect as well as the proposed conditions okay second okay we have motion a second further discussion okay hearing n all those in favor signify by saying I I those oppose nay motion carries folks my notes say that this will go to the city council November 26 with an alternate date of De December 10 and I'm sure Sarah will keep in touch with you regarding which meeting and I also want to point out that she's probably already told you the Planning Commission is a recommending body to the city council City council's actions are final okay all right thank you for coming tonight you're welcome to stay for the rest of this if you'd like thanks a lot okay moving on planning case 24-17 we have a request for a variance for a new detached garage and accessory structure at 2503 Lost Lake Road applicants Patrick and Rebecca organ Miss smia rock and roll thank you so this site is located along Lost Lake Road it is a lot of record um currently there's a single family home with an attached two-car garage at this property um there's also a public park Lost Lake Park that sits between the property and the lake shore of Lost Lake um the request is for a 26t x 36 6t side loaded detached accessory garage this is 936 sare ft um on the south side of the property and the applicant is requesting a 12T setback from the front property line AB budding Lost Lake Road for this detached [Music] garage this lot is guided as low density residential in the comprehensive plan and will continue its use as a single family prop uh house on that property it is also zoned in the R1 single family residential district um considered a lot of record and because it is in the R1 District the setbacks for an accessory structure are 20 ft in the front yard 4T in the rear yard and then 4T in the sidey yard um when it's the side yard of the house and 6 feet in the side yard when it's in the rear portion of the yard so um this lot is a little interesting it looks like it should be a Lakeshore lot which is defined as a lot AB budding public Waters or AB buding public lands AB buding public Waters with the exception of designated Parks so because Lost Lake Park sits between this property and Lost Lake it is considered um R1 residential rather than a Lakeshore property and so the proposed garage is 93 6 ft this is below the maximum of 1,200 ft for an individual accessory structure um the required setbacks are 20 ft in the front ra front yard and 4T in the rear yard um and the proposed garage is at 12T in the Southeast Corner which means they are asking for a variance of 8 ft from the front yard setback If This Were A Lakeshore lot the front yard setback would be8 ft for a side loed garage which means the opening of the garage is facing the house rather than the front property line there and so um this proposed structure would be conforming on a Lakes Shore lot um the maximum hard cover is 40% because it is a lot of record the proposed addition will mean a total of 33.4 6% for the whole lot this is under the 40% uh minimum elevation at on Lake minetonka for new structures is 933 ft this garage is at 9387 FT so it meets the minimum flood elevation um another thing to note is the southern portion of the lot which is here is a drainage and utility easement um and so is limited in that way um it's limited in that way what does that mean it's limited in that way it just has the designation of being an easement um okay so you can't build on it no structures no yeah um and so while the house and this lot is technically not a lake sh lot due to the presence of Lost Lake Park um it does have the appearance of being a Lakeshore lot and the application of Lakeshore front yard setbacks for the side loaded garage um is in keeping with character for other lak Shore properties um the notice was was distributed to Property Owners staff Consultants agencies and private utilities we received no comments um and now we would ask that you guys discuss the request for this 8ot variance in the front yard setback um and take one of the three actions so and staff does recommend approval of this variance okay questions for mam okay hearing none uh discussion amongst the commission and then I'll get pretty straight forward okay why don't we then see if um Patrick and Rebecca Horan would like to come forward and and speak to their project thank you for coming tonight thank you hello Oran Patrick Oran 253 Lost Lake Road thank you oh we just want a garage you know the rear setback with the zoning with us not being Lake Shore we have four feet but we can't we're in low floor elevation if we did that so this was the most logical place for us to put it there's quite a break it goes going towards the park and then the whole the picture is not up but the whole um this whole easement for drainage is we can't build on that we can't use that so this was level less back fill less Excavating less I mean it just seemed and we could use our existing driveway instead of building more driveway so which is newer driveway actually well 2018 we put that in so is yeah pretty simple I guess my only question was did you ever look at if you could turn it like so it's almost par to the roads so well we looked at it attached no no I mean justall to the just rotate it a little bit to the right and push it back so was it was the 20 ft from the road but then we have a weird getting into it well it would be angled more towards the driveway that's what I was just curious you mean just like if you just rotated a little bit clockwise does does it need to be squared to the house or that can be angled it angled okay but then wouldn't we be closer to the low floor elevation though cuz it go it starts there's a hill that goes down okay in the back corner I was just curious if you looked at that as an option to get it further away from the street uh we we didn't because of the hill going down and it was and it's closer to the drainage down there there's a spring that comes across the road from our neighbors and their water pumps going 247 and we have you can't see it there's like a a marsh in there of trees and water and it just I guess I didn't think of it because of the the elevation to me it' be easier to get in and out of that garage too if it was slightly angled towards your driveway more especially with boats and trailers but I guess I'm okay either way I was just curious if you actually looked at it like that to make it more parallel to the street and kind of just slightly angled I guess we wanted to kind of save some backyard too I could I don't know um no I didn't think of that with the hill going down I just didn't want a big block wall off the back because of that Hill either yeah because then we'd have to dig down lower because it gets I I would assume the closer to the water it's probably going to need more Frost um what's that called the yeah we'll have to be deeper the further we go west yeah it breaks off and I know there's from reports of that neighborhood there we could run into soil issues anyway so now where it is we could turn it less likely there but where it kind of breaks off it's like 14 the water travels pretty far up into the park not by our house though no but I don't we've got some distance we didn't consider turning it yeah I just the hill goes down and I just didn't think of it's all level where it is and it's and it's all 938 for elevation and it's flat up there and we were trying to be square with the driveway that was existing too cuz I think there's just enough room to when it comes to excavation along that driveway Edge there when we pull that back the Damage Done from digging and doing foundation work I think will almost fall within an apron and the apron we could replace the tar that's taken up with possibly just an apron maybe a foot bigger than normal instead of 3 to 4 feet we might be 5 ft of the driveway so we may not have to have any tar put down after it's done mhm okay okay further questions for the applicants further comments from the applicants okay thank you for coming for thank you thank you thank you all right further discussion within the commission pretty simp I'm okay with you either way I like the fact that they got all their neighbors to sign off yeah okay hearing nothing else you will note on page 31 of your agenda that staff recommends that the Planning Commission recommend approval of the requested front yard variance with five conditions and three findings of fact chair would entertain a motion so I'll make a motion to approve uh the variance for the new detached garage accessory structure for applying case 2417 including the five conditions and three findings of fact on page 31 second we have a motion and a second further discussion hearing none all those in favor signify by saying I I those oppose nay motion carries and again it's either November 26 or December 10 for the city council meeting and Sarah will be in touch okay thank you very much thank you thank you have a nice evening you too thank you okay moving on we have review and discussion of proposed amendments city code chapter 119 signage this is continued from October 1 2024 this read all right incidentally good job Mia yes well done thanks for no trick questions you can reserve them for now all right I'm just getting to it in case you we want to talk about because I didn't do a presentation because code language is hard to put on a presentation so uh good evening sorry I wasn't with you last month when we were talking about this thanks for tabling it so I can be here and be part of the discussion um I did read the minutes um and I know Mr Baker had two points that I've already corrected uh which was alab what they're not that his Corrections are not in this draft they are not in this draft thank you I made the corrections in my draft and then Sarah said she was just going to reuse the packet so I already made them so yours don't show up but um I did correct those twoo so to Circle back um we are still working through code updates uh and we will continue to work through code Updates this is one more section that we can um be reasonably ready to have a conversation about and explore with you um this code update is really important because we did change the districts uh a few years ago and the code sign code lives outside of the districts and had not been updated so Sarah and I have had fun over the last few years applying sign regulations in districts that don't exist anymore and figuring out how to handle it so we would really like um to work through the signage with you so that we can get a sign code that actually matches uh the districts that we have it's a lot easier for everybody uh we also are interested uh in doing the update because there was a change uh a number of years ago now um that does regulate how we can talk about signage and how the city can regulate it it's not my favorite uh federal case law but it is the case law that we are under and so there are some things that get rather confusing um to regulate particularly related to Temporary signage I think permanent signage is pretty easy uh you do it by District we say we want certain wall signs that's pretty easy it's all those temporary signs that get a little bit messy when you can't say we want to treat garage sales signs different than real estate signs different than the Commercial Business Signs they all have to be treated the same same in terms of they have to be treated based on their size their type their location we can't uh be regulating them based on what they say um which is a lot easier before that law was in place but that is the rule of the land now so that's why we have the changes in front of you uh another element that we added was Dynamic sign display um the city historically has not really allowed them other than for time temperature um we've started to do it but technically the code didn't allow it um but think we've come a long way with understanding how those affect drivers I know when I first started my career people were very very concerned about it I think we all have gotten used to it um and probably don't have the same level of concern so we do have regulations added for dynamic displays that are based on um other places that we have been working so structurally the you probably haven't spent a lot of time in the sign code we generally don't talk to you about signage very often um partly because people usually follow the rules and we don't need that many variances I know I've seen maybe a handful of times in front of the Planning Commission more related to I think some of the shopping centers and how their signage has um and I did add uh some information that says how do we computate sign area because I know one of the times that I was in front of you I think we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how we do s computation so that's added in here to hopefully make our lives easier um but the sign organiz this has been organized by purpose and then definitions because that's an important part kind of General Provisions for everybody how do we calculate signs you know what kinds of things do we look for um then we have a list of prohibited signs um exempt signs and that is also a change is signage can take a lot of time a lot of Staff time to manage um many cities as we've had this change in law have tried to simplify it down um because it just could take a lot a lot of Staff time and it just we don't necessarily have the staff to do that so we have exempt sign signs meaning signs that you can put up as long as you meet those standards you can have them staff doesn't need to have a conversation about it um temporary signs uh again these would we have a grouping that are Exempted from permit so as long as you meet those standards you can do that signage um and then we did have um just permits related to um the public event kind of portable signage uh we have a little bit of rules about that um but then we have a few non-exempt temporary signs we try to limit those just because of the time it take to give permits monitor permits um and then we have the whole section on permanent signs um so From staff's perspective we would love extra feedback um we have the changes that we made are more related to simplification um organization organization in terms of actual sign sizes you know should it be 50 square feet or 32 square F feet I tried not to touch that because I there's no place I can tell you that 32 ft is better than 36 ft is better than 50 so if you guys haven't been bothered by signage in the community it's better to keep those numbers the way they are um and I'm more looking at trying to make things administratively easier clearer for folks and to actually have rules that we can point to when someone wants to sign um we did have um shoot comprehend no yours were called comprehensive sign plans comprehensive sign plans okay I I I was going to say that and then I second guess myself and we did try and go away from those because those are cumbersome as well meaning if you want to put a sign up and it meets the district standards we should just let it go and not have to have a comprehensive sign plan that needs to be reviewed and approved every time someone wants to make a change again it's the idea of adding process and time and if we've all agreed to the rules then hopefully we can just go with it if someone has a plan un development and they include signage information that we will approve that still as part of the Pud historically the last 5 years or so no one's been ready to talk about signage when they come in for approvals so the conversations have happened afterwards we could always do it if someone really knew what they wanted we can wrap those up in the approvals but that hasn't happened in recent memory in reviewing the projects that we've had it's always something that we talk about after they might show us where it might be um but they don't actually have the dimensions at that point that's early in the process um so that was a lot of introduction with no slides which is probably kind of surprised more I had more to say than I thought what questions do you have what concerns do you have are there things that you want to walk through um that we should talk about more well my question is how how big of a problem is signage I mean do you it sounds like administratively you spend a lot of time on it I mean do we have a lot of have a lot of permits she'd have to issue I think the biggest concern I've heard from Sarah is and I don't know that that's been an issue is just how many temporary popup signs that we have to I mean those are the hardest ones they pop up different places and so try to make sure our code is tight so that the city can go back and enforce it and for an example a temporary sign meaning uh garage sale garage sale sign could be signs typically what you're more concerned about are people that leave them up all the time like they put up the sign they never come back and take it down or a new business in some some place that wants to have signage and they put it up and they do a whole bunch of signage um because it used to be your code said you couldn't do that it's really hard for me to write it so that you can't do that because again you'd have to read the content to know it's a business sign instead of a garage sale sign so those things are a little bit tough so I well you know one example right this time of year are all the signs for um light installation you know Christmas tree lights and at this point anybody can plop them anywhere is that no because you still the current rules you have are a little bit more U specific but then you need someone to go out and enforce that yeah I I'm not complaining I'm just trying to understand that an example that would be like a seasonal sign uhuh is what our code would call that okay Banner temporary banners for special events special activities this time of the year they're they're all over they're they're just prevalent because there's a lot of things going on and that requires a temporary permit there's a process but some get ahead of us and they they go up and come down sometimes even before we see them I'm not suggesting that that's a bad thing it's just a it appears that maybe if it can be regulated without a Perma process and still allow and still work that seems to be a reasonable a reasonable thing but um when the one thing I think we find is if a sign off- premise advertising sign we we'll call it that you know Sarah's Saddles shot I'll Sarah settles shop gets a sign in the right of way or on public property and like a rabbit in five days there are Tim's Tinkerbell service and Pat's playtime area because where one is there's a zillion and that that's that's we were all waiting for all the business places you were going to come I'm not that GL you doing pretty good was excited to see the list Mr good is there something here about um time frame within which to remove temporary signs yes well there's a sign a number of times that you can use said sign a number of days it can be up and it depends which kind boy it's really hard to read when you have the lights off on this um yes there are some people are pretty good about removing gr sign people are not very good about removing political signs yeah so political signs are a whole different thing that are covered by State Statute and we have a reference to that but those are protected under free speech and they're under a whole different class of signage so our code can't regulate it different than the state law relative to political science so just as an FYI I'll ask it a little differently because in the in the definition it says temporary sign means any sign tend to be spayed for a short period of time yes but what is a definition of a short period of time is that three years so the way that we have it working is um for example this first grouping is some that's signs that are um if the property is for sale or for rent we say that you can have a sign up until it's rented or sold and then the sign has to come down so that's that first section this is under exempt temporary signs um similarly if you have an open building permit you can have a sign until it's 90% completed sold something of those lines that's construction those are construction type ones then we move on to Temporary banners penants and ground Banner signs and that is a 30-day time window so my only comment on that is I don't have a better suggestion this is very typical what communities do recognize that if you have a 30-day window that 30 days really starts from the time the complaint is issued because you can't you can't know when it first was up and so the first time you can count is when you know there's a problem and and then it's 30 days plus that um but I just wanted to note that and then temporary off premise free sing sign so just to make sure we are clear about what off premise means it means not on your property so you're putting a sign on someone else's property that's like a garage sale sign you don't put the garage sale sign in front on your house you put the garage sale sign on the corner you might you might yeah generally the ones we're talking about the ones that are down the street at the corner directing pointing yes um so these we say they can be have you can have them five days five occasions per year five days per occurrence this is more of a enforcement kind of thing there are obviously you're not going to register all of the garage sales on a and do that what typically happens with this one is that the kinds of folks that have a garage sale on a weekly basis eventually the neighbors get frustrated and they say it and then five times in then you can start doing it and then they're on the list um having you know just Knowledge from other places that's kind of how that one um I have let's see can I keep going so these all have the kind of the idea is they all have different timelines they don't all have the same timeline because they're related to very specific purposes and is how is a garage sales sign not a section four sign a temporary Banner is it because it's off premise oh how come it's not a temporary Banner that has a 30 day so banners penants and ground Banner signs are very specifically defined so so a banner is going to be on a structure a temporary a ground Banner sign are kind of like those newish feather ones wave the ban so there's based on the type so we can we can regulate based on type and location and size and so that's how they differentiate so um the off- premise freestanding sign can only be four square feet in area which means it's likely going to be a square sign that's one four square feet uh I did see in S I did talk about and I didn't add this in one one thing I've seen with temporary offc come is freestanding signs um I have seen a few cities um because Sarah I think is the most concerned about that one so I looked around I mean rightfully uh I had seen a couple of places that did it where they're only allowed to be placed between Thursday and Sunday or Thursday and Monday so it limited at least to the weekend which is the assumption that it's mostly grage Sal signs so that is something that could be added that wouldn't work for a business though if they wanted to like the the lighting now these again are off premise meaning if you have one on your property for the person that put up your lights they are different these are ones that are someone put it up and they didn't ask your permission and they're in the right of way and the holiday boutiques you know those are everywhere those would fall under this category yes if they're if they're those four square feet signs cuz they follow the garage sell Signs Now which are allowed yep okay okay yeah and then I want to go one more down um and those are essentially allowed in the public right away but only in private property with permission of the property owners that sounding right or say one more time I was looking for something and got distracted and so it's we're only concerned with things that are in the garage sale sign for example that are in the public right away and if you or your neighbor's property permission technically I yeah nobody yes okay but in your you could be on your neighbor's property but you should have the permission to do that and then we do have temporary freestanding signs specific for um non-residential districts and those are a little bit bigger um but those have permits so they're going to have a start and a stop and they're big they're 32 square feet so we left that to provide businesses some more options that they could do but again those are going to be on their properties did that answer Mr Baker you were the one that I I went long on your answer I'm going to say yeah okay so the temporary freestanding and the residential is that also going to cover real estate signs too well the real estate signs are here they are if they're are you talking the open house signs or are you talking the ones on your property um the ones on your property those are covered by a different section and that's uh just a second this one three so oh that's a uh that's not the white one is it the one above it temporary standing that's what we're calling that one yeah free standing wall window sign that's so that's your real estate sign okay and you can have it both on the lake side and on the street side so as much as we can we take the language you we already had in the code moved it around and then made it meet the content neutral that's that terminology content neutral meaning we don't talk about content we talk about something else to regulate it do we regulate signs in business Windows M yes how what about private homes I mean there not specifically depends on how big they would be um there is a provision that allows you a little bit uh so window signs are part of the exempt signs category for a business and they have to be placed within the building and not exceeding 50% of the window area but that doesn't I don't think that would extend to residential home correct well she I think she asked about business first okay but yes you're right that does need sent to Windows uh residential homes for residential homes we really just have the property identification signs that are 2 square ft or less so that's that's just your numbers um we're generally aren't going to get into the happy birthdays and all those kinds of things hopefully those are temporary if someone has those are you concerned about a specific example of that no okay just checking cuz we can usually regulate stuff managed communities typically have no signs period no real estate signs nothing this is probably just more academic than anything but out of curiosity the code says prohibited sign motion signs are prohibited so are traditional barber shop tools permitted because are oh I mean this is what your code already said okay is that why we don't have any of those here there is one oneing existing one right no I don't it's I hadn't got no no I understood what you were saying I I technically I suppose the only thing about the motion is it's inside the glass the glass it's not a whirly that someone might get hit by or totally it's in I don't know okay is a good point that is an academic type of question real quick except for on subsection h on there I think you're missing something I know I I caught that yesterday so but thank you I was actually going back to make sure I did it again okay but when I was up updating for your the things you had mentioned last month I had noticed that and thought oh it got dropped off 119 dash dash what yeah I'm sure it's there's probably in that track changes where it got in the track changes cut got yeah it's or I didn't know where portable signs ended up yet but now I do thank you for saying that so one thing I'm having a hard time tracking is what is now newly allowed without permit ooh that is a better sah question because I don't actually what is allowed without a permit what is what has changed from needing a permit to not needing a permit with these regulations because I know we intentionally moved to not needing a permit for most things um what would you have to issue a permit for today that you won't have to after this what will I yes won't you have to issue a permit for that you do today how are we making your life easier um no Banner permits cor this is the first one and did we eliminate the permit for portable signs I was just going to look actually that's funny I believe we did yeah so that those are only allowed those don't don't have a fee and they're only allowed for quasi government and government agencies I think and type of relate type things and that permit would go away as well um I think the sandwich boards used to too we we do I don't know that we have been we it was in the code but you haven't been issuing it I I don't I don't know that they've been if that's been ongoing we don't have that many of them but that but they certainly um like those on the the bank is is that the same thing where like if tour DET Tonka wants to advertise they would advertise across the street and they still do have to get a permit that one they that would be wrapped up in their they have to get multiple permits from the city and that is normally included as part of that sure um but that would not be made a temporary not permit required no that one they would that would be wrapped up into their their approval for their public gathering permit as as part of that I would understand I think didn't you just say that we're not proving banners anymore that is the plan yes but that one would be wrapped up with that's a portable sign not a banner that's a portable sign not a banner the what what she's talking about is a portable sign which one am I talking about portable sign that's the one that governmental no I was just talking about I was talking about the over the road banners banners because to me this like an over the road Banner is something I might want to bring bring to approval but I don't I don't feel very strongly about that that but it feels more weighty but I think that how we've H how we've handled those in the past is they get addressed with the public gathering format sure yeah I think but it so but not not all the time I don't think well there's three see what you're saying you're a b Fire Department fire department and tour to France people up there and then also spear to the Lakes yeah but this wouldn't allow them to do that without approval now the our code change they couldn't put a banner across the road without having an approval for a public gathering that's what you're saying correct that's what I'm asking they couldn't use a temporary those are the only ones that that have gotten those approvals in the past but can somebody just put one up if they wanted to no I mean technically with this you can't even do what you just said I have to I have to rewrite that to write that in we don't have I don't have temporary banners across signs covered in here I have portable signs because the other ones are are ones on from the as well they have to get permission from a county road as well well because it's going across the road road and then our our forces normally help them so that's where their approval comes from okay and when those come through the city council everything is identified within their permit that they're getting including we normally say it's going to be signage they're proposing X or Y and and it's and it's the big events it's the fire department it's GE Tonka I think this section will modify to cover that but what we wrote it to be was a portable sign for government purposes quasi public event or special event permit like that's the only three times you can do those things and the special event permit process is where you wrap everything together and the council approves it so it doesn't allow just any Resident or business it has to have a government or event type type of function that we already know about but I don't I would say that this doesn't include the temporary Banner so I'll just add bet it cuz the other temporary banners is more like grand opening on a building or something smaller not a road one you're right the content agnostic really makes it difficult it does makes it really hard it's yes and the and the original court case was kind of interesting but neither here nor there got decided so that when you have those big signs that are like 10 ft wide they have the two poles is that a banner then which like where it head like our Lady Lake lady the lake oh those yeah for like a vand and things like that is that what you're calling or what do you call that where it's like a 10ft big huge wide sign that says incredible Festival coming I hadn't I in my head that's not I wasn't envisioning those so I didn't know that they were doing those so I have to look at that well they are doing well they're like you know as you come into town fish I think I'm not talking about across the road I'm just no the side of the road I would say those are banners but I think we need banners on on Fenn we just need to be more specific because that's not accounted for and I guess in here banners and pendants are temporary signs which resemble Flags I don't think they all resemble Flags right that's why we need to clean up well for the one you just gave me I yeah we might want to expand that a bit catch yep okay further comments for reading I have kind of a when under the prohibited sign section B where we talk about motion signs and similar devices um example of a similar device for a motion sign I mean I know we talked about the barber shop thing but I one thing that I'm thinking of um and I know it's probably not in here and maybe we don't care about it because it's more tight to residential areas but you get people who get I I mean I'm going to sound like a debie downer right now but overzealous um around the holidays I'm overzealous around the holidays but I have seen people who have those lights that just like shine all over the place and they're spinning around n nine times out of 10 they're hitting the side of the house and it's a little bat flying or a pumpkin and a Christmas tree but every now and then I see one that's a little more Wild than not hitting their house and going into what would be the street so it's it's a motion item oh are these projection s talking and a projection really isn't a sign but and again nine times out of 10 it's on a house but every now and then I see like a disco ball one that's like flickering all over the place and again I get enthusiastic about things too I have a dragon that lights up you know but he faces the house I mean I'm telling you I'm I'm not trying to call the kettle black here but I'm trying to think of something that me or my husband might think about putting up but you know what I mean I've seen those I don't know how they get categorized they usually fall in residential areas but I have seen it where it shines outward so I'm just trying I and I was my face I like processing because I I remember another signage discussion in another Community where I mean where there was a Debbie Downer who didn't want to hit no not down but like you start like naming things and you're like wow yeah we should really shouldn't we I mean is it a sign is it a device what would you call it we had a whole long discussion about the holiday or the happy birthdays that you might put in your yard and whether or not you're allowed as a resident put happy birthday happy fifth birthday and whether we had to regulate those or exempt those it was a whole long discussion and the only reason why I think about that's how you get down to these things if there was something overly obnoxious yeah and it's related to a holiday it could be out there for 30 days right no I think that's really good it's probably related to lighting more than it's related to signage but it comes you think of it because of signage totally right that's what I think Sarah was saying to like it might if we think that that has been an issue right it's always good to put it in if it hasn't been an issue you could wait I don't believe it is because I think the house where I've seen it happen they recently sold it so I don't think it's going to go back up it'll be in a new neighborhood I mean hopefully if there's a concern about it then if people knew like if if the city knew about it they could nicely go and ask for adjustments to it we would have to have a regulation but I that's why we're here cuz we have to have regulation well I think I mean first off I think going through all of this content is a little dry it's not horrible um I said I had to get my homework on science because I learned a lot I think the way you clean it up is nice um is there going to be any communication going out to Residents what once this is cleaned up so that again they understand what sign rules are I think we'll probably put together yeah we could do that newsletter something newsletter maybe in the newsletter on the Facebook on the city city page on Facebook or on website that's really all I have to say toal lights and external communication so I I've I've curious folks thought I I'm reading uh 1194 section c about Painted signs and there's two there's two rationals about this that make me think I might want to consider loosening that and allowing this um number one I don't know if you saw in the Laker Pioneer but like someone discovered this beautiful hand painted wall sign on from the 1960s Pharmacy in Long Lake um that would not we would not allow that in the if I'm reading that right and secondly just the artist in me just feels like public art and like the ability is different now if you want to go down that route there's a whole section on mural kind of things that covers that okay and they have to be regulated differently because it's the whole thing I'm happy to do it I have the regulations we do it in other places those are considered not that exactly the the drug one is that but other artistic ones are you because of the content problem I see we have to talk about them as murals and there's a whole set of things it's like a paragraph So if it's commercial it's a sign yes and the these are talking about those historic signs typically a painted sign doesn't come across or get maintained very well I see over time so that's why you usually don't allow them and if someone now you can you guys can be different you know the Tom plug sign you know mural that he had painted across from uh Larson printing I think I saw a picture one time and thought Oh yeah but we don't have you don't currently have mural regulations in your code well well I mean I thought it was beautiful and I'm with you I love art and when I read that that they discovered it I love hand painted signs but I don't like crappy hand painted signs exactly and and that's so subjective how do you how do you measure what looks good and what doesn't I got an examp does that mean the American Legion sign is illegal oh on the side of the building that they just painted that's I think it got repainted though it's always been there but according to this it would be illegal I think that's been there but it would be illegal under this code illegal to do now just to create moving forward yeah I mean I I I'm against heavy heavy regulation period but when I look at a mural or the legion you know that's kind of what brings character to to small communities so I'd be against you you know I think somebody if they want to do that would have to come before the Planning Commission and kind of describe what they want and it is subjective but where do you draw the line I don't know what what would make your life easy with that so if we're going to are you talking murals or well I'm talking what you brought up with the legion and I'll have language um just opening it right now that we already have done uh but I don't know about the the business signs is a different discussion because NE is and to me it's right on the border because if you're a commercial entity and an artist and someone who loves creative things then you can want to do commercial works on the side of your wall and it would be a sign potentially right it might not be a mural I don't know or maybe you get creative and call it a mural if that's that's allowed how do we differentiate mural and graffiti cuz some graffiti is very artistic so this is won't exactly work for you just recognize that that city has a certain process that they use but I think some of the language is similar um you know I'll read it just because I know you guys are at an angle what page is that on this is not this is an example from another community that I have handy and I can access about since we're talking about it is this in their code in the sign or is it in a different section it is in the sign section it is MHM I don't know I put it there so can you summarize it for us sure so it's the idea that they have to be in good repair free from peeling paint damage which we could also use in the general painted on building section um maybe that's where should go and then murals should be composed of permanent materials and applied only to permanent surfaces they can't be applied to like a fabric or a temporary surface so it's theide that you're really trying to do something intentional um they allowed them only on building facades that face a side or a rear property line so you can't do it facing the street and then there's a bunch of things that you can't that you don't want you don't want moving Parts added to it you don't want projections you don't want words that are inappropriate Etc um uh representations that imitate traffic or warning or safety things and then they particularly didn't want colors that are predominantly fluorescent metallic or reflective I mean you might like that too too but these are the ones that they landed on they did a comprehensive mural plan so you know that would be the idea that they would have you would get approval of said mural before it was painted and that probably is a good plan yeah to do that so it would go through and get an approval process so it's not very a lot of stuff but it does allow for it to happen if it makes sense you could use some of these for if you were thinking it was okay to do a business sign I just don't know you know those things are really cool related to historic buildings and that's how they communicated I don't know would you want to have that today maybe I personally am a huge lover of hand painted commercial signs like when done really well they're just phenomenal um and I would love to allow it mhm You' would I would love to allow it I so type location sign for me I bless you so since it is a hand painted sign we might be able to have it be something that you would approve and you would have a permit for before they would do it because it's the type of sign it's definitely different than all the other signs you're not the thing is you couldn't regulate the content true right so someone wanted to make a sign for a hand painted sign for the a certain shop that you don't really want them to have a sign you wouldn't be able to say no you can't have them because we don't want that to be a big sign um you might want to have a regulation on the Sid of it maybe otherwise they could do the whole side of a building with a commercial sign would I me I don't I mean that that if potentially if they're going to do that that right but if you don't have a regulation you can't decide to say no after the fact because you don't like the sign those are the that's where we're that's where this is a tricky thing where yes I'd like it but the minute you don't like said sign you don't really have a lot to foundationally say you can't do that so that's unfortunately that's what regulations are about is try to feel out figure out what you can be comfortable with and if you allow people lots of Freedom or if you want to restrain it a bit because you aren't going to like something can you be as vague as um if you're considering painting a side of a building it has to go through the approval process and then you know with kind of a visual yes the challenge I still have is you can't you can't regulate the content of a sign if it is a business sign if we call that a business sign we can't regulate the content so if you don't like it I don't I mean you could say no I would think that they would have this I'm not a lawyer so this would be something to ask the City attorney I would think you don't have a lot of basis to saying no if someone has delerious language you wouldn't want that up there if it I mean we could restrict those things you know inappropriate language moving Parts beyond that it's harder to regulate because it says specifically side location and type I think we can regulate you know you need a permit for it but I don't I I again I can talk to the City attorney I just don't think that you can say if you don't like it once you see it and you're like o that's ugly you can't say no because that's regulating the content of the sign that's you deciding that that's not appropriate content and that's what the business wants I so I do not I don't really mind the lack of regulation of the content I do like the fact that if we were to permit it it would be just less likely to be the type of person who would paint instead of buying a sign because of a cost reason only um so if they're willing to go through the effort to get a permit for something it's more likely they're going to be putting more effort into it at least right and so that's a strikes a good balance to me okay so can you include some language to cover this definitely so I hear mural or not yes mural some version and then also a hand painted sign but it is a permanent process and it is considered a permanent sign those aren't going to be temporary so okay any other elements that we didn't include that You' think we should no more questions for Rita no more comments so the next time in theory the next time you see it um will be the language the public hearings at the council isn't sorry um this isn't zoning so it's not a public hearing we don't have to do it no but it but the next time you would see it would be at Council we have to posted 10 days well are we going to come back with language here or not I think we should okay and with the corrected language from the laste last meeting yeah we can do strike out on the line I can his was just it was in wrong alphabetical order and [Music] there I think we can bring it back to the next meeting oh for sure yeah if it's if it's generally in good shape we can add that and work through the the rest of the language so all right okay any other comments for Rita just hearing none we are now moving on to Planning Commission terms Sarah uh we have two vacancies and we have uh a couple of Commissioners that are seeking reappointment we have advertised for candidates that closes on Friday and we have one candidate so far so folks have interests that know folks let us know uh interviews will be held in conjunction we have do notice for the joint meeting thank you um at our at our meeting on the 3rd of December and traditionally the members of the council are invited to attend that meeting to sit in and and listen um that's all I know for now ask a question on that yeah so I don't think in our work rules we talk about if there's two open spots and we have only one person apply we don't do we have do we open that back up in like three months or something from we can or we can um our our work rules do say that even if we're a body short yeah our quum is going to be whatever that current amount is but I think the way the work rules are in right now we wouldn't open it back up until the fall again right I don't know if it if we have a vacancy I think we would we could do it again but the vacancy it's a spot that's never been filled it was vacant still it's still a vacant spot though okay can is it legal to ask who's not re we brought it up at the last meeting oh I'm sorry it was at the last meeting okay and then Jake yeah so Jake Mr Sab oh really oh well G with thank you for we've learned a lot going to be our neighbor yeah I'm moov it otherwise I'd stay on but we're leaving Mountain so yeah Mr s's uh job uh schedule is taking a lot of time so and then there the other members have are seeking reappointment okay questions on this we other we'll see I don't know I mean I would think we would maybe want to read advertise maybe again we'll talk with city manager about it do we send it out to people who previously applied then get in we haven't that's a good idea though to do that just send a note to said like if you were to send it to all the people that applied in the last like five years just said hey just so you know hey there m there's a position spots opening back if you're interested if you want to reapply and Sarah when when is uh pardon me I think you said this already but when are the um Friday they're do do this Friday okay yeah yep okay further comment moving on uh meeting start time and possible change uh members may recall uh a handful of months ago uh we talked a little bit about this but the council earlier this year's I I think in April they changed their meeting time from 7:00 start time to a 6:00 start time and the Planning Commission talked about about it as well and they asked that we revisit it after a couple of months have gone by and so we had it on our agenda last month but we were we had a couple members uh not with us so we tabled it to tonight's meeting so uh the one thing that would be helpful is if the Planning Commission is is thinking they would like to change their time uh it would be good to do so and then we'll make that change in the work rules as well uh but then we can also share that information information with the interested candidates for the Planning Commission as part of interviews but again that's up to members of the Planning Commission I would say for the most part it it's gone pretty well for the council m m it's gone really well uh and I I really think since we made the change we've had a bigger audience too interesting yeah yeah so I think last month we were leaning towards moving to the same thing at 6 but wanted to have more people here to make sure there was no conflicts and I think I just saw did I see Doc's commission change to 6:00 yeah I think they're they me Thursday I think we're gonna bring it back TOS as well okay let's open this subject up to discussion and I think if I remember right it was me who recommended we table it till now it was because I I like the I like the idea of Shifting at the end of terms so that people who had committed to 7:00 could keep it and I personally am fine with either one so it was Mr srong who had the conflict right yeah just he was the one most vocal in express that the 6 o' would be challenging and I said we would do propos doing it at start of next year yeah oh Jan one yeah okay further discussion well it doesn't matter to me but I think it would be great for the staff makes a little shorter day for them yeah and it sinks up with other ones that think they brought that up also only interfer with church on Tuesday at 6: that's okay it's only one one Tuesday of month further comments hearing none chair would entertain a motion regarding start time of Planning Commission meetings so I'll I'll make a motion to change the start time to 6 o'clock um to correspond the same with city council starting January meeting January starting with the January meeting second we have a second further discussion hearing none all those in favor signify by saying I those oppos nay motion carries Council Lea's on cath any comments um we did I'm not sure if everybody was aware but we took submissions for citizen of the Year Awards yeah it was we had several submissions and we did decide on choosing Mary prick who is one of the main coordinators for farmers market and she's been doing it for about 14 years she and her other coordinators and she's getting close to retirement she's getting close to 80 so we thought it would be a great time to acknowledge her in the person who sent in the the um application wrote up a really nice so I think we'll be giving her her certificate I believe at the next meeting maybe next week so it's a new thing and so next year everybody keep that in mind um submissions I think they had two months to come up with who they chose we had several really good app all of them were worthy so we feel really good about it um and then the only other thing is as you know it's um this weekend Saturday is the tree lighting from 5: to 7: okay thank you I don't know if anyone else knows too but uh J Soul the owner of m al almost passed away oh yeah I heard that so he was a big supporter of everything around everything he'd been battling that for a while it was really sad they he came here when they did their patio right as part of the approval y mhm yeah it's a nice patio too yeah thank you for bringing that up that's really sad big loss to the community MH okay um Sarah comments from staff uh nothing from me I was going to mention tree lighting um uh but as Miss mckin said that's on Saturday uh 5: to 7 um I don't know what the weather's going to be but you know well it's going to be chilly but not very windy but it'll be festive um we're busy uh we the three ordinances Adu solar and electric vehicle Chargers all were passed um at the council a meeting or two ago and are in the process of uh getting into the books I believe they've been published um uh we've been working on signage uh lots of uh still ongoing lots of Permitting uh applications which has been keeping us very very busy and on our toes and um and obviously elections were very busy in our office with all hands on deck and the election team did a really really good job they really yeah you did you really did all of them did all of them did thank you and um so it it it actually feels quiet uh and I don't say that in a bad way but our place was popular for about the past 6 eight weeks so lots of lots of clients so um I voted early it was smooth the first time same here the team did a really good job so Kevin and all the volunteers s our new Sarah yeah wonderful experience they really did even when there were some pretty obstinate people there which there was one in front of me and they dealt with them pretty well that's it's nice to thank you and thank you everybody for joining us this evening too that's all I have okay thank you um next meeting Tuesday December 3 at 7 p.m. do we have anything else to bring up December 3 okay hearing none chair would entertain a motion to adjourn that's righted motion to adjourn Mr chair thanks we have motion second discussion hearing none all in favor signify by saying I I those oppos nay motion carries thank thank you for coming have a Happy Thanksgiving oh yeah happy thanksgiv you