##VIDEO ID:https://videoplayer.telvue.com/player/994DtmGEsi0VDYK3jJI2BJ72GfgNIpU2/media/920086?autostart=false&showtabssearch=true&fullscreen=false## <v Speaker 1>Started, we have the, we'll just lay down the rules again,</v> which are, we're gonna treat everyone with courtesy and respect. Only address the board if you agree with a point that's been made. We're gonna have you sort of sign on to it by a raise of hands. And, oh, that should do it. Before we get going, we have a public speak portion of the evening where any individual may raise an issue that is not included on the agenda. And it will be taken under advisement by the board. There's no opportunity for debate during this portion of the meeting. The section of the agenda is limited, 15 minutes. And any individual addressing the board during this section agenda shall be limited to five minutes. Does anybody wish to address anything that's not on tonight's agenda? Seeing none, we'll go right into it. This is a continuation of public hearing for five Auburn Street, an application for Metro West Collaborative Development. The applicant requests approval of a comprehensive permit under MGL L, chapter 40, sections 20 to Crew 23, and the A zoning bylaws for the multi-family dwelling development and associated site improvements. Tonight we're gonna address traffic and civil peer review discussions, as well as waiver requests. And we do not have our peer review folks on board just yet, but they're coming on board. We're gonna hear what the applicant has to say. People have an opportunity to respond and peer review will, will, will be in touch with you folks and eventually they'll be in touch with us folks as well. Okay. So with that, I think we'll turn it over to you. Yeah, <v Speaker 2>Thank you very much.</v> Jennifer Depa Gilbert here as counsel to the Metro West Collaborative Development with me to my right is Caitlyn Madden, the executive director. Also here tonight is Sharon Small. Chelsea Gaylord, also from Metro West. And we have the architects from David Square Architects with us this evening. We have presentations on traffic, on civil storm water issues, and also the landscape and open space design. Those will be presented by Scott Thornton, the traffic engineer, Dana Ello, the civil engineer, Rebecca Baan, the landscape architect. When those are completed, we'd like to also have Cliff Bower, our architect, give you a little bit of information and feedback that he has heard from the historic commission. There have been several meetings that Caitlin Madden is going to tell you about with respect to the waiver list. We are ready to present that. However, we do think it's a little bit premature because we are gonna come back on January 13th with 13th with revised plants, which could change some of the necessary waivers, some of the dimensional relief, et cetera. <v Speaker 1>So we'll put that off.</v> <v Speaker 2>Okay, thank you. That's fine.</v> So let me turn it over to Caitlin, who's gonna give you a little update on some of the meetings that we've had since we last met with the board. Great. <v Speaker 3>Good evening. Hello, Mr.</v> Chair, members of the board and committed residents of the town of Natick. Thank you again for having us here tonight. I'm just gonna give a very brief overview of some of the progress that we've made since we were last in front of you. And then I will turn it over to Scott to cover our traffic study. So we were blessed in front of this group on November 18th. Since then, we have been in front of the select board on November 20th, where we provided an update on the status of the project. The team also went in front of the Historic District Commission on November 21st, where we received feedback on the design. And Cliff Bauer from Davis Square Architects is going to talk through some of that feedback tonight. We also plan to be in front of the planning board next week on the 18th to provide an update on the, on the project. <v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, can you say that last part again?</v> You're gonna be in <v Speaker 3>Front of the planning board.</v> Planning board next Wednesday. Yep. And it will be our first presentation to the planning board on the project. What's <v Speaker 1>The capacity of the planning board in that meeting?</v> <v Speaker 2>It's advisory. So the hope is that</v> between the historic commission giving design feedback, and you'll hear at the end of the presentation from Cliff Boer, the architect, about the feedback that the architects are taking under consideration and what you're gonna see on January 13th. But the hope is that the planning board will also have additional design feedback. And then of course we'd love to know from you any design comments that we can incorporate into the presentation on the 13th. Sure. So it's advisory good enough? <v Speaker 1>Yep.</v> <v Speaker 3>Okay.</v> And then after those presentations around traffic, civil landscape and design, we're just gonna talk a little bit about next steps. <v Speaker 4>That's for me. That's it.</v> <v Speaker 5>Good evening, Mr. Chair. Our members of the board.</v> My name's Scott Thornton, I'm with Vanessa Associates. We prepared the traffic assessment for the project. I've got about 12 slides to go through and then I'll turn it over to Dana Ello of LL Engineering to go over civil and we'll be available for any questions that you might have. So we started with typical traffic assessment base where we are relying on, on guidelines that are identified in Mass Massachusetts Department of Transportation guidelines for traffic impact assessments. In that case, those guidelines identify a need to assess a traffic impact of a project when the development impact is expected to be a hundred vehicles per hour during the peak hours, or a five or result in a 5% increase on area intersections. In this case, this project is nowhere near that level of intensity. We're expecting more on the order of 11 to 16 peak hour trips. And our percentage traffic increase is more in the range of 1.1 to 1.5% during those peak hours. And that's at the front door at the intersection of Auburn Street with Elliot Street. And as the trips disperse into the road network, the obviously the intensity and the effect of the project reduces. So we're well below the levels of, of a, of what we would typically do for traffic assessment for a project of this size. But we met with the town and town staff and, and agreed to perform a more robust traffic study to go over some of the, some of the issues that the, that staff had raised. Whereas we would typically look at just the Auburn Street and Elliot Street intersection. We extended that study area to go to, to the Pond Road intersection with Washington Street in Wellesley and also further to the west to include the Union Street, pleasant Street and Elliot Street intersection staff also directed us to get new counts of the study area intersections. We did those counts in May of this year when schools were in session. And as part of the study, we reviewed the 2024 existing conditions. Then we did a seven year projection, again, consistent with DOT guidelines included a background traffic growth rate per year, included effects from adjacent or nearby development that that was known. That gets us the future condition, the 2031 future condition without the project, which is called the no build develop, no build scenario. And then to that, we added the project traffic, which gives us the 2031 build condition. So staff had a number of specific requests for the traffic study. Typically, if we're doing traffic counts for a residential development, we're looking at the morning, weekday, morning and weekday evening or afternoon time periods, seven to nine in the morning, four to six in the afternoon. Staff wanted us to expand that to include the school pickup time period in the afternoon between two and four owing to the River Bend School in proximity to the site, as well as other schools, you know, Memorial School and, and others in the area. There was also a request to study pedestrian conditions in the area. You can see on this slide there are a number of rec popular recreation locations that were reviewed looking at the, the Riverbend School across the street, access to to the town baseball fields further to the south, to the bacon free library, to Memorial Elementary School to the west. And also just to get to the businesses on Elliot Street that are, are within a thousand feet of the, of the site. So we were also asked to identify potential improvements at the Elliot Street and Union Street Pleasant Street intersection. Those are summarized in the, in the traffic assessment. As far as our review of existing conditions goes, the items that we included in our review consist of, of a number of observations. As I mentioned, we did traffic counts, capturing the types and and movements of all vehicles at the intersection. So we looked at cars, trucks, buses, bicycles, and pedestrians. At all the study area intersections we observed q queuing conditions for the Riverbend School, driveways for Auburn Street and at the Elliot Street and Pleasant Street Union Street intersection. I mentioned the pedestrian connectivity and the, the review and the pedestrian bike facilities, including, and you can see it in the bottom photo, the the rectangular rapid flash beacon that assists the crosswalk right just just to the west of the Auburn Street intersection with Elliot Street. We also looked at public transit in the area. We reached out to the Metro West Regional Transit Authority. They indicated that they did have bus service that extended into South Natick, but they had ceased operations due to Covid. We reviewed crash data for the intersections. Oops, you crash data for the study area intersections. Did not find any significant issues indicating safety deficiencies. We looked at vehicle speed data on Elliot Street, and we also reviewed the width of Auburn Street. As I'll get into in more detail in a later slide. So to develop the future conditions, we reached out to town staff for Natick, for Wellesley, and for Dover to get information on any known local development activity, which would be projects that would be expected that were known, that were approved, not yet built or were in the process of being constructed but not yet occupied. The only project that was identified that was expected to impact traffic volumes in this area was the St. Benedict Academy expansion on Union Street. They did not prepare a traffic study, but we estimated their, their traffic impact and added that to our future conditions. We also noted the, the, the Wellesley Sidewalk project along Washington Street where they're adding 3000 feet of sidewalk to the north side of Washington Street from the town line in towards the center of center of Wellesley. We also included a, as I mentioned, a 1% annual compounded growth rate to account for background traffic growth in the vicinity of the site. And lastly, so that gets us to the no build condition. And then lastly, we developed the, the estimates of the project traffic to add to future conditions. So those are slow shown on this slide. We base the projections on standard industry practice, the using the Institute of Transportation Engineers trip Generation manual for residential development, similar to what's proposed. The peak hours for this use are the weekday morning and weekday evening peak hours. We expect those to be between eight and nine in the morning and between five and six in the evening. And you can see that these are, these are relatively low traffic volumes. Three vehicles entering in the morning and 10 vehicles exiting for a total of 13 trips. That's over a 60 minute period. And not all at once. The weekday, evening, peak hour, about 10 vehicles entering and six vehicles exiting. And again, these, these trips are based on studies that have been conducted and compiled of similar facilities and rates and equations have been developed. And the these are standard, standard practice for any studies that are being reviewed by, by mass DOT and by most municipalities. So then those peak hour trips work out to be an average of for every, you know, or a vehicle trip every three to five minutes or three to five minutes between vehicle trips during the peak hours. <v Speaker 1>Can I just stop you just for a second?</v> 'cause I just want to get it lost in, in, in, as you move forward. Sorry. No, no, no, you, it's fine. And I'm sorry for interrupting the flow, but just just for a moment because I, I sense that the, the folks in the assemble, I'm not sure, were you here on, on November? No. Because traffic is a grave concern of the people that are behind you. Yep. And I just wanna make sure, and, and I'm certain that the numbers that you're giving us are based on the ITE trip generation data or however the protocol it's supposed to be. I think these folks are gonna say if you have 32 units of housing and certain of those people are gonna need to go to work in the morning, and those same people are gonna come back probably in the afternoon when most people come back. Although presumably some of those people work from home. Now in this, particularly in the post covid era, is it not, is is it really realistic that 32 units of housing, some of which will be single people, some of which will be, you know, single car homes, some will be two car homes, that there will be 10 cars, which exit a development with 32 families, whether that family is an individual, 32 households. Households. Households. Yep. Is that, you know, I, I understand you're drawing your numbers from this. Yep. I'm asking you realistically, do you anticipate that 32 households we'll generate 10 exiting cars during rush hour? <v Speaker 5>Yeah. Yeah, we do.</v> You know, I, I think that that the rates that we use when we do, when we go back and do follow up studies, they're pretty accurate. Yeah. You know, when in at, at my house, my wife leaves at seven o'clock in the morning, I leave at quarter after eight. So, you know, that's, that's a, that's a 75 minute time span. I'm not saying that 32 units is only gonna generate 13 trips in the morning. What I'm saying is 32 units will generate 13 trips during that peak 60 minute time period that's equivalent to the peak, peak hour of traffic at that intersection. <v Speaker 1>So the peak is the peak,</v> peak transit from the site or peak traffic at the <v Speaker 5>Site.</v> It's the p traffic at the site. <v Speaker 1>Okay. And so between seven</v> and eight there's gonna be XA number X. Yeah. And from nine to 10 there's gonna be ano there's gonna be y Exactly. <v Speaker 5>So, so between eight</v> and nine, there'd be 13 trips between seven and eight, there might be nine trips between nine and 10 or, or yeah, between nine and 10, there may be five trips, there may be 12 trips. So over the, over the course of the day, which gets us to the, the bottom number. Yeah. 108 vehicles entering 108 vehicles exiting. Yep. <v Speaker 1>Okay. Good enough. Yep. Okay. Thank you.</v> <v Speaker 5>That was a good question. Just</v> <v Speaker 6>A, a follow up.</v> So you've, you've chosen the, the two peaks of the peak, basically these are the two busiest? <v Speaker 5>Yes, yes. Okay. Yep.</v> <v Speaker 1>The peak, the peaks of the peak.</v> Again, just so I'm clear, it's both the peak traffic on 16 as well as the highest number in any one 60 minute period. Yes. So that's the worst of the worst. <v Speaker 5>Yes. Yeah.</v> And that's, that's, again, these are, these are guidelines that are promulgated by by, <v Speaker 1>I'm not saying you're making it up, I'm just making No,</v> <v Speaker 5>That's fine. No, I understand. I</v> <v Speaker 1>Appreciate it. Just make sure I understand it.</v> <v Speaker 5>Appreciate the scrutiny. Yeah.</v> But, but, but the, the point is to make it conservative, to make it like a, a worst case review of a worst case condition. <v Speaker 1>And so this number here, 108 out 108 in that means</v> there's a lot, there's back and forth <v Speaker 5>Over, over a 24 hour period. Sure. Yeah.</v> <v Speaker 1>Okay.</v> <v Speaker 7>So David, if I may,</v> may you calculated the number of trips cars during the busy hour, currently today, not the projection, but what's currently coming into and out of Auburn Street. Yes. In the, the general area today. What was that number? <v Speaker 5>Lemme get that for you in</v> <v Speaker 7>A second.</v> I think I came up. It says 16 on page seven of your table vehicles per hour. <v Speaker 5>Yeah. So on Auburn Street,</v> south of Elliott Street, there were 12 in the morning, and in the evening there were 11. <v Speaker 7>And how many houses are we talking about? Four. Four.</v> Four. So four houses generating 12 and 32 are generating 13. So <v Speaker 5>Right.</v> So, but that's not all, that's not all the, the residential trips. You know, there were some people that were coming from the school that were, that we observed parking vehicles on Auburn Street and going across, across the street. <v Speaker 1>Okay. Pick up where you left off. Thank you.</v> <v Speaker 5>Okay. So, so we assigned these,</v> these trips to the study area network and we, we identified the delays at the intersections that the, that the trips or that the vehicles generate that, that the no build can compare the no build condition delays without the project to the build condition delays with the project and identify the delay increases. So at the three study area intersections, we identified those delays at the front door, the intersection of Auburn Street with Elliot Street. The largest delay was less than four seconds during the peak hours. So as you get further away, as I mentioned earlier, those delay increases get worse. <v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, I'm gonna stop you folks. Stop.</v> If you cannot control yourself, I'm gonna ask you to leave. Okay. Rule one, courtesy respect, let the man talk. At the end, you'll have an opportunity to talk. If you cannot control yourself, I'm gonna ask you to leave. <v Speaker 5>So as we get further away from the site, we generate less</v> of a, less of a increase. So we also reviewed parking aspects of the project and the project parking rate of 1.41 spaces per unit, which results in 45 spaces total meets NAIC zoning requirements and exceeds requirements based on the three sources, which are listed at the bottom of the slide. Again, more data from the Institute of Transportation Engineers from their parking generation manual, which indicates a rate of 1.27 spaces per unit or 41 spaces would be appropriate for this size development. Also, we looked at the Metropolitan Area Planning Commission, perfect fit parking data study, and looked at locations in the same general area as Natick bat data indicated a rate of 0.9 spaces per unit or 29 spaces would be appropriate. That's identifying what the demand is at a, at a similar size development. And what may be the, the best and most appropriate comparable site for comparable source is me, Metro West's own Medway property, which has a demand of 0.98 spaces per unit or as applied to this development would be 32 spaces. So <v Speaker 1>Can I just ask you a question on that?</v> Sure. That is to say that however many units are at that facility today, you can do a real count on any number of given days and of the spaces provided the ratio is 0.98. Yeah. So there's x presumably excess spaces at that site as there would be here at least three. <v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean the, the, you know, the idea is that these,</v> these studies are done and they represent a snapshot in time and it's, and it's appropriate, I mean, that's how a lot of this data is collected in this case. You know, we've got 32 units, we've got 45 spaces that leaves ample spaces for, for visitors and for others that may come to the, that may come to the site and they could be contained on site. <v Speaker 1>This right here, it was taken not on just one day</v> at one time. You, you look on a number of different occasions. <v Speaker 5>I think, I think that I'll have to check on that.</v> I think that may be, that may be a rolling, a rolling number, but I'll, I'll confirm that. But in any event, oh, <v Speaker 3>Go ahead Scott.</v> If I may, I can, I can speak to that a bit. So that is for our Glenbrook Way community and Medway, it's 48 units. So it's a similar mix of one, two, and three bedroom apartments. And there's, the count was 47 vehicles. You have to have your vehicle registered to have it on site for those 48 units. Sorry, excuse me. 61 spaces for the 47 registered vehicles for 48 units. That <v Speaker 1>Gives you 0.98.</v> <v Speaker 3>Exactly. Yeah.</v> <v Speaker 1>Yeah. Okay. I gotcha.</v> <v Speaker 8>And was there any reason is parking included?</v> Parking is free. Yes. So people aren't, would not register their car to go save a few dollars. <v Speaker 3>Exactly. Yep.</v> And there's no public transportation at that site either <v Speaker 8>47 47, 47 units?</v> No. 48 units, 47, is that correct? Many units total. 48 units. 47 spots, yes. Or, or <v Speaker 1>Cars 61 spaces.</v> That's 61 spaces available. 48 units, 47 cars. <v Speaker 3>Yes, correct. Thank you,</v> <v Speaker 5>Sir.</v> We also looked at vehicle circulation, looking at a review of Auburn Street and the site driveway. We did this test for a number of vehicles, but the largest was the Natick Fire department truck. We called the fire department, got their specs and used auto turn software to simulate the vehicle path. We're showing the, the auto truck coming from both directions, although they most likely would be coming from the, from the bottom of the page. But just for completeness, we're showing, we're showing them both entering from both directions on Elliot Street and exiting. But this slide shows the firetruck entering into the site and they are able to come in and circulate to the, to the western most or or bottom most portion of the site. And then this next slide shows the fire truck exiting and they're able to, to exit out onto Auburn Street, excuse me. And then further onto Elliot Street. So as I mentioned, in addition to the, to the fire truck, we looked at other vehicles including passenger vehicles, delivery trucks, trash trucks showing that all those vehicles can, can access the site and the, yeah, this does show up. So the trash truck would come in the same path as the, as the firetruck pull down to the end where the dumpster is, would be a front load trash truck and then would back out and exit out the same way as is shown for the firetruck. Diving in on the Auburn Street circulation, as I mentioned earlier, we, we measured the width of Auburn Street and we looked at it every 50 feet between Elliot Street and the end of the roadway. We found that the street measures between 19 and a half and 22 feet in width with a four and a half to five foot wide sidewalk on the west or the bottom side of, of Auburn Street. As shown on the plan, the widest section is closer to Elliot Street in this segment, which is about a hundred feet from the Elliot Street intersection. It is 22 feet in width. And what we're showing is that the ability exists for two-way travel with cars alternating the right of way if, if there happened to be parked cars present. We're showing a, in this case we've got both a plan view and a cross-section view. And the red car represents a parked vehicle. The inbound vehicle is the green vehicle that's, that's passing while the outbound vehicles are waiting and yielding the right of way to the inbound vehicle. So this results in slower travel speeds on Auburn Street, which should already be slow given its given its short travel length. And, you know, we think this is a good thing. We think this is appropriate, causing drivers to, to drive slowly through the area to pay attention to, to conditions. Pedestrians should already be removed because the, the sidewalk that exists on the south side gives them a place to, to maneuver and to, to travel. And you know, the combination of, of all these reviews indicate to us that the street can accommodate all the, the vehicles that are, that are identified to come to the site, whether it's passenger vehicles or delivery trucks or fire trucks. Is <v Speaker 7>That red car parked legally there?</v> <v Speaker 5>So, right. So I don't believe there are any</v> regulations on Auburn Street. Now what we, what I can show you on the next slide were some of our recommendations for parking. <v Speaker 7>Can you go back to that previous slide real quick?</v> <v Speaker 5>How</v> <v Speaker 7>Wide is Auburn Street where it abuts up</v> to Elliot, do you know? <v Speaker 5>It's about,</v> I think it's about 21, 21 to 22 feet. And how <v Speaker 7>Much clearance do cars typically need</v> to be safe when they're passing each other? <v Speaker 5>You know, some of them can pass within a foot,</v> depends on the driver. <v Speaker 7>But how much width does one car typically,</v> you know, a a Yeah. Honda Fit will be a lot less than a massive SUV. <v Speaker 5>Yeah. Yeah. So Right.</v> So, so the 85th percentile vehicle width, which is 85% of vehicles would be that size and smaller is six foot six, six foot, seven inch. Either six foot, seven inch or six maybe, let's call it 6.7. That's how wide <v Speaker 7>A car is.</v> Yeah. Okay. So a couple of feet on either side, multiply that by two. Yeah. And we're talking 16 speed or so. <v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah. 13, 13 and a half. So,</v> <v Speaker 7>And if you have a wider truck trying to pull out</v> and they're not being courteous and pulling right up next to the side of Auburn, but they're sort of in the middle, is that gonna prevent somebody from turning in? Is there a danger there of somebody being sort of hung out in limbo on Elliot? <v Speaker 5>So, so what we're showing on the next slide is actually</v> a recommendation for, for prohibition of parking on Elliot or on Auburn Street near Elliot Street at the end, just to prevent that kind of thing from, <v Speaker 7>I'm thinking more along the lines of people,</v> if it's a very narrow aperture and you have sort of a wider FedEx truck Yeah. And that FedEx truck isn't aware that they're consuming a big chunk of that roadway, you know, are there instances where people coming into Auburn Street will be stuck having to wait for the FedEx truck to leave and making FedEx truck up? <v Speaker 5>I, I don't, I don't think,</v> <v Speaker 7>You know, I mean it sense for the town</v> to widen that a little bit. <v Speaker 5>I don't think it's really, I mean there, there's plenty</v> of roads that are, that are between 20 and 22 feet wide. I think that, and in fact there, there's, I was looking at a study the other day that that that said that wider wider roads and wider travel lanes aren't any more safe than, than narrower travel lanes. In fact, the traveler, the narrower travel lanes encourage people to, to be more aware of, of their surroundings when they're driving. So, you know, I would say no. Okay. So this slide gets to some of our recommendations for parking. So we try to identify locations where parking could be maintained and where it should be restricted specifically for emergency response vehicles. And we've got some areas where, where parking is shown or is recommended to be prohibited and other areas where there's driveways. So it can't be, can't be located there and should be prohibited on either side of the driveways. And then we've got areas where we're showing parking can be maintained. And this results in the ability to park 14 to 16 vehicles on Auburn Street. We don't think that the demand would ever get to that point. Certainly on our site we feel that there's adequate supply to accommodate the demand. And you know, we've got demand for, for residents, we've got demand or we've got supply for we residents and supply for visitors. So we're not expecting our residents or visitors would need to park on, on Auburn Street. There's already no overnight parking that it, it exists in Natick. So any restrictions that were for, for parking spaces would just be during the daytime. And we think that signage can be added to address any potential conflicts that may occur that may, if we add the signs, it may head off some of those, those potential conflicts. <v Speaker 6>One question. Sure.</v> This part of it goes back to the very beginning, but again, the original, your, your whole basis is, is based on one car per per unit. Is that right? Or is it based on filling all 45 spaces or whatever the total is? <v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's, they're, they're kind of separate things.</v> It's based on the number of, the number of units that generates a certain amount of trips. <v Speaker 6>Okay. And then, so leaving,</v> giving parking here would bring more cars in to the street. Is that factored into any of your studies? <v Speaker 5>I'm not sure to understand your</v> <v Speaker 6>Question.</v> If the traffic study is based on how many entry and exits there are onto Elliot Street, if you give more parking on the street, wouldn't you bring more cars in there? And wouldn't that affect the study? <v Speaker 5>That's not typically the way,</v> the way the studies are done, <v Speaker 6>But just in practical terms.</v> <v Speaker 5>Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that it would</v> because it, it's not the way that, it's not the standard procedure for, for a traffic study. So <v Speaker 6>I I under Yeah, I understand that.</v> So if you common sense that like you're bringing more cars in, it's gonna affect more cars in and out if you give them more spaces. <v Speaker 8>If I think you'd need demand for cars to be coming there</v> that weren't otherwise included in the study. If this were a parking constrained area with a stadium nearby or something, then, then they were parking there on the streets then that, that would But I think the, not to put words in your mouth or Oh, I I I thought about <v Speaker 6>But if you don't, yeah, if you don't give them the spaces</v> though, they won't come in. I know it, it's a detail. But yeah, it's sort of like since traffic is a big issue, it just seems a little bit counterintuitive to give more spaces on the street. Well, <v Speaker 1>Hold on.</v> Entice more. Hold lemme just clarify something 'cause I just wanna make sure we all understand. There's no parking restriction today. Right? So those spaces, to the extent that people park there exists what, what he's, what I think what's being proposed here is a restriction <v Speaker 6>That</v> <v Speaker 1>Yeah.</v> In the number of potential parking there. <v Speaker 6>Okay. Yeah. Thank you. That's helpful.</v> <v Speaker 5>Yeah. Thank you for clarifying.</v> I, so you're right that if you, like for instance, I, I've done projects where we may have a hundred units and we have 30 parking spaces. It happened to be next to, next to a TAT station or in a downtown area. But we don't do a, we don't do the traffic study based on 30 spaces. We do it based on a hundred units. I dunno if that, that may not help, but that's, <v Speaker 6>That's like what David said was something I hadn't thought</v> about that it's it's open now. Yeah. Everybody could park there now. So it doesn't make it any worse. It makes it actually a little better. Yeah. So it's a reverse. Great. Okay. <v Speaker 1>Thanks.</v> <v Speaker 5>So we have some recommendations</v> that really focus on the on site access recommending that the driveways placed under stop sign control, all signs and pavement markings should conform to the manual and uniform traffic control devices, which is just standard, standard procedure. Any landscaping or signage should be designed that, that doesn't interfere with sight triangles. And there shouldn't be any, there shouldn't be any obstructions within, within those sight triangles that would impact sight lines for vehicles exiting the site For conclusions. We have what we identified was no safety deficiencies in the review of the crash data we have recommended, we've got site distances at the project site driveway and at the Auburn Street and Elliot Street intersection that meet recommendations that are satisfactory, minimal effects due to the project on motorist delays less than four seconds and vehicle Q lengths and study area intersections, peak hour traffic volume increases of between one and eight vehicle trips during the peak hours, which again equates to that, that 0.1 to 2% increase. And our conclusion is that Auburn Street is able to accommodate the project traffic demands. <v Speaker 1>Okay. So I'm gonna stop you there for just a second</v> and ask you what what's gonna happen next because I think, go ahead. You tell me. Yeah. Civil and stormwater were next. We're gonna just stop it there for a minute and we're gonna go back here and, and we're gonna have folks respond and ask questions just so that we're segmented. We don't lose this while we go onto the next thing. It's fine. Okay. So who would like to be hurt? And I think, I don't know. Do you know what? Thank you Scott. Could we, Amanda you can stay there. Okay. Can we bring another chair here to the table or something? Just 'cause I want him to have a microphone. Yeah. And we have a slate or the sign sheet. Yeah. Yeah. Here. It's right here. I think we, we only have two spots left on you got a new one? Okay, great. Okay, so why don't we have, is it Scott? Yeah, why don't we have Scott sit here and respond and we'll have the folks go up there and identify themselves for the record. And, and I, I think you can address the board and then we'll have whoever's appropriate respond. Who would like to be heard? Sir, I give you this. Okay. And we're gonna have you focus on only what we're talking about today. Yep, I got it. And just, I'm gonna have you sign in again and just give your name and address for the <v Speaker 4>Record.</v> <v Speaker 9>Hi, my name is Mark Den. Can you hear me okay? Yes.</v> I live at 32 Elliot Street and I'm in the corner house. We have the driveway on the side and I don't agree with, with the traffic four seconds when I go to work tomorrow morning, probably around 7 20, 7 30 could be close to eight. A little flexibility. There's so much traffic going south of the light going towards it backs up towards memorial school. It literally goes that far and it goes down on pleasant and up that way as well. So when that light goes, if you don't catch it during that quick cycle, I'm taking a right towards Wellesley, I can catch it and I'm out within four seconds. If I don't get there at the beginning like that, couple seconds during the light change, no one's gonna let you out. They've been waiting since a mile up the road by the auto barn up to some days. Seriously, that's how long it is. So you don't go and I'm taking a Right. So it's a lot easier to pull out and go right than to cross over that traffic. And the cars, there's fewer cars going, I guess it would be south or southwest I guess, but they're going faster to the light and you have a little bit of time if you're going to get across because you can't get in front of the cars. People aren't gonna let you out because we're only what, 10, we're about a hundred yards or so from the light 150 yards. I, I'm, I'm approximately guessing that. So that's only a few seconds of driving after waiting for many minutes to get through many light cycles. So it, it's definitely not four seconds unless you hit it really good. It can be, it's not. So my, I envision with the traffic and, and I did a little homework, I was comparing our place to other sites in town. If anyone had a chance to glance at those, we have one way in and one way out. And I also envision more boxed big trucks, Amazon, UPSI also envision some school vans or a van. You take statistically numbered kids I work at spec in with special ed kids. And most of the kids, or if not many, take little vans to school, small vans for whatever reason they might have just a couple riders and they go to the house, they pick them up, kid could have disability, could have, you know, whatever the reason is they're on, they have some kind of a disability, whether it's a physical or otherwise. So you take a number of people, how many children would be living there, which is fine with me, but not anti families, not anti anything anti density. But we're talking traffic. You're gonna increase the risk of having a van come in and out. You're gonna have probably no big yellow bus. 'cause those will be on the corner somewhere, maybe over near the church or wherever they pick up. But there will be unexpected things coming. And it's hard to go out enough when I go to the right, going to the left, you, you have to wait until it's totally clear from the right people to cross over 'cause they're running up towards the light. And in the afternoons it's kind of the same way. We, we, we back up early because we're very close to the light. So later in the day the light maybe backed up all the way past down bank and way further, you know, past Pond road many times even down towards Ley College in the president's house on a bad, bad day. But you, so you have to take all that into consideration. People have backed up for a long time. Some let you out, some not. But that morning, if you're crossing over to go left, you just have to wait until there's zero cows coming. 'cause then you're hoping you're only dealing with the cows going towards the light in South Natick, not away from the light. And that's just the reality is the way it is. So I, you know, that's just my daily observations, weekly observations for the last close to 29 years I've lived there. Okay. Well <v Speaker 1>Let's just make sure that we understand</v> and I'll give you an opportunity to respond. Yeah. I think specifically discuss what four seconds is. Sure, yeah. In terms of his understanding. <v Speaker 5>Yeah. So the four seconds represents</v> the increase in delay at the intersection for our project <v Speaker 1>Auburn and Elliot.</v> <v Speaker 5>Yes. And the,</v> and the River Bend School driveway, which is, which we also included in that analysis. So on average, we are expecting delays again over the, over the course of the 60 minutes for vehicles exiting Auburn Street. It's about 20 to 30 seconds, 20 to 35 seconds. And coming out of Auburn or coming out of the Riverbend school, it's the, the delay goes up to I think 40 seconds for them exiting. That's a higher demand. And, and the traffic that's coming out of Auburn Street is much lower. It it does, it's about evenly split the traffic coming out of Auburn Street now about 50% turn left, 50% go. Right. We're expecting that to generally continue with the project. And then in terms of, in terms of the lights, you know, we observed the same thing. We observed that, that there's queuing that occurs at that signaled intersection and, and the signal adds gaps when, when, when Union and Pleasant have the green, then the traffic, there's not much traffic. The the, the traffic isn't moving on Elliot Street. And that makes it easier for traffic to add in and out. But again, we're, we're not talking about a, a huge increase to those numbers that are, that are there now. <v Speaker 1>So your four second one Okay, that's an Auburn number.</v> So I think what, can you speak to the anticipated the anticipated impact of this on the traffic? On s <v Speaker 5>Yeah, so, so at the, so the way it's measured is the,</v> the, the delays for the approaches that have stop signs. So in this case, we're looking at the, at the Auburn Street, <v Speaker 1>That four seconds is the number.</v> You're just, that that's what you're gonna say. Four seconds is the number I just <v Speaker 5>Is is the increase Yeah. From</v> <v Speaker 1>The project, from an into it.</v> Yeah. And so is that, so to ask, what's it like, since you're already on 16, you don't look at that number once, <v Speaker 5>Once you're on 16, you're not, you know, you're, you're</v> theoretically you're not stopped. I understand there's a traffic light that stops you. But, but including everything in there, when you get down to the, the signal, you're, lemme just make sure I have the number right. Your, your delays there are about a second 0.2 in the morning and 1.2 seconds in the afternoon. <v Speaker 1>The, these folks said last time we were here that</v> the queue on 16 can sometimes go back as far as Wellesley College. Yes. Are you, are you anticipating that that queue will be worse because of your project? <v Speaker 5>I So if there's, in the times that there's</v> that queue that that goes back that far, we would be adding traffic to that queue. <v Speaker 1>Yeah. But can you give us, is it's this number</v> <v Speaker 5>Yeah.</v> <v Speaker 1>At where, where at the worst time on 16,</v> you're adding eight cars Yeah. <v Speaker 8>Per hour. Hour</v> <v Speaker 5>Dur. During the peak hour. Right.</v> <v Speaker 8>What, just for context, can you</v> tell everybody what's the average throughput on group 16 per peak hour? Is it, is it eight adding to 10 cars or eight adding to a thousand cars. <v Speaker 5>So right now it's about</v> 1100 in the morning total. Both directions. <v Speaker 1>What's the morning?</v> <v Speaker 5>That's seven to eight.</v> And then in the evening or the afternoon, it's about 1,050. And that's five to six. <v Speaker 1>And so it's eight on top of that. Yeah,</v> <v Speaker 7>I may Mr. Chair.</v> <v Speaker 1>Yeah. So I'm sorry, did you just give us a percentage?</v> I didn't hear it. Did did you earn I I may have misheard. I didn't give you a percent. Okay. Yeah, I I thought you said percent. Okay. We could do the math. <v Speaker 7>I think the neighbor's concern isn't what happens</v> to the people on 16. <v Speaker 1>I think it's both. But</v> <v Speaker 7>Getting off of Auburn Yeah.</v> Is already a 45 second endeavor. Maybe on average, if you're lucky, it's maybe four seconds for, for <v Speaker 5>For River Bend School.</v> Yeah. They have more, they have, because they have <v Speaker 7>Off of Auburn.</v> <v Speaker 5>So River Bend school driveway is across the street.</v> They've got more traffic exiting. So they have more delay than Auburn Street would have. But, but I, but yeah, so it's, <v Speaker 7>But the point being is, is</v> that the cars in the new development who are on Auburn Street will create a queue on Auburn Street. It'll only be like three or four cars deep, maybe, maybe five. But each one of those might be 30, 40 seconds. <v Speaker 1>Your estimate is 24 to 30 on Auburn</v> <v Speaker 5>35. Right.</v> <v Speaker 1>Oh, sorry. 24 to 35.</v> <v Speaker 5>8 8 18. So 18 to 35.</v> <v Speaker 1>18 to 35 if I, okay. Okay. Okay.</v> <v Speaker 7>So I think that's really the point here is, is</v> that there's gonna be a queue built up on Auburn Street that's gonna last maybe 40 seconds per car. The service time to get onto Elliot. If you're turning right, 30, 40 seconds if you're turning left, I don't know what you said, 80 seconds or <v Speaker 5>Whatever.</v> Yeah. It's all, it's all combined. <v Speaker 7>But when you start queuing those people up, then you know,</v> now you're talking about a five minute backup to get off of Auburn if you strike it, unfortunately at when everybody's leaving at the same time in the morning. <v Speaker 5>So, so if there's, and and it doesn't quite work that way.</v> It's not like every 40 seconds there's, there's, there's vehicles. No, I get it. But, but if we're looking at the, at the vol, and that's specifically related to the delay equation, but, but if we're looking at the, at the volume of the project and we're having, you know, three to five minutes between vehicle trips, both entering and exiting, that should leave plenty of time for any anybody to exit. I I have, <v Speaker 7>I have issue with that three.</v> I mean if there's 48 units, did we say going up <v Speaker 1>32, 32, 32</v> <v Speaker 7>And you know, and they're gener you know,</v> we're already generating 16 cars from four houses and now you're adding eight times as <v Speaker 1>Many trips.</v> Trips. Trips. <v Speaker 5>And, and, and some of the, some</v> of the cars we observe people parking on Auburn Street Right. And walking over to the school. So, <v Speaker 7>Okay.</v> But they'll still be doing that. It's not necessarily eightfold, but <v Speaker 5>Yeah, I, again, if it's, if it's signed, I think if it's,</v> if there's signage that's post up, they, they may not be doing that. I don't mean to speak <v Speaker 7>For the residents,</v> but I think the issue here is is traffic gets really bad and congested Yeah. On Elliot Street and there's no way to dismiss it as four seconds or only eight cars or it's horrible. And adding anything, if we can find a way of providing relief, I think is what is being asked. And not dismissing it as it's just four seconds. <v Speaker 5>Yeah, no, I I'm, I'm not dismissing it.</v> I'm just letting you know that, that the, that the project has a, a pretty small delta. Yep. Pretty small effect on the existing area traffic. And when you get to the intersection of, of Elliot and Pleasant, it has even less of an impact because it's, because that traffic splits once it goes out, half of it goes towards Wellesley and half of it goes into town. Yeah. <v Speaker 9>This is exactly what I'm glad we're discussing</v> because I don't think this is gonna overwhelm Route 16. I mean people from Milford, Hollister, midway, everybody contributes to that. Okay. That's, we can't control that. But four seconds, eight seconds, 10 seconds, that means another light cycle just to get out of your street. And it's not like getting out to a street where it's easy to get out of to begin with and adding it could be a few light cycles. Okay. Eight minutes to get outta my driveway to go to work. I mean right now there's not typically anyone in front of me, but there will be more days with, due to more residents and more other services involved, whether it's a bus, whether it's delivery trucks or what have you. Stop, I'm <v Speaker 1>Gonna stop you just 'cause we heard that.</v> Yes. So we're gonna just get onto somebody else. Thank you very much. Thank, thank you very much sir. In the back <v Speaker 7>Evening</v> <v Speaker 1>I get you to just sign that paper.</v> You bet. Give us your name and adjuster, <v Speaker 10>The record.</v> I'm Marco Ovn. I live at at five Water Street. And just to put some context on my remarks, I've lived there since 1989. I've seen a lot of cars. I appreciate the work people are doing that the, the engineer's done. But I just wanna talk about this idea of, of a thousand cars a day, 2000 cars a day on Route 16 and this is maybe 10 more, 20 more whatever For a person who lives there now and is trying to get onto 16 sixteen's. The easy part, once I get my car on Route 16, I'm happy and I'm on my way to work or wherever to church. The issue for me is the opportunities to safely merge into that stream of traffic. Very limited. So I don't worry so much about the traffic generated by our new neighbors in terms of the traffic that's on 16. What I worry about is the opportunities for me as resident to merge into that traffic. So maybe four seconds to 40 seconds doesn't seem like much out of an hour. But for a person who's trying to move in, like Mr. Bugden just said, move into that traffic out of that hour, maybe there's 60 seconds that's available for me to pull in. So I'm not, again thinking about the cars going by, I'm thinking about the space between the cars and that's much more rare than the number of cars. And it's a lot less than a thousand holes an hour for me to move into. It's maybe dozens on a bad day or hundreds at best. So the number of cars that are coming out of Auburn Street because of the project as a percentage of the opportunities to move is a much bigger number than the number of cars coming out of Auburn Street as a percentage of people that are already on 16. And that's really the issue for us. What's the capacity and Water Street next to Auburn? It's a little bit wider than Auburn Street is, but it's the, there are some danger zones with that kind of traffic because not everyone is used to it. Particularly, I'm thinking of delivery drivers in a couple of different ways. Delivery drivers make wide turns because they're trying to clear Route 16 and get onto Auburn or Elliot. And so there's a lot of times where people are not, they're not staying to the right, they're almost all the way to the left side of the road. So if you're coming out and you have that moment where you're not, the two cars aren't seeing each other, that's a really dangerous moment. It's something that we had to teach the folks at the circus school that moved into the Old Sacred Heart Church on the corner of 16 and Water Street. You have to take that corner slowly and tightly to avoid impinging on the area of people exiting. The folks on 16 don't like that. That's where that thousand cars an hour starts to make a difference. These things add up to make safety issues. Bicyclists and pedestrians have a lot of trouble here because people are making the sudden moves off 16. So this is not something I've seen addressed about the number of bicycles that are going through. I'm a long time resident. I know before I turn right onto Water Street coming from downtown Natick, I have to look for where that bicycle is and see how fast they're going before I make their turn. And if I have to, I have to stop on 16th to let them go by. That's gonna be exacerbated on Auburn Street. And the, the other issues that come up, people who are looking at numbers to decide what the impact of these units are. Use databases. I understand. I'm also a registered Massachusetts civil engineer, so I use some of these same databases. They cover long periods. The databases include covid, they include times before home delivery was ubiquitous. I'm assuming our new neighbors will use Peapod and Amazon and UPS as much as everybody else. I don't trust the results of a database that includes periods that are no longer relevant. And I think we need to look back at these numbers and think about that. The other thing that I worry about is this idea of emergency services being monodirectional coming from the square, heading east into Auburn Street. That's simply not correct. The Old Sacred Heart Church. Now the circus school and this new building will be an automatic multiple alarm response. There's only one fire firetruck in South Natick. So that other firetruck is gonna come from Wellesley. So you're gonna have emergency vehicles coming from both directions. We should be considering that when we do this. And the last thing is parking on Auburn Street. Parking on Auburn Street can be difficult because the so-called peak traffic time doesn't occur when you think it does. The peak traffic time and peak parking time in the neighborhood is when the big school has a major event and heaven help us. It happens on a Sunday when the churches are full and they're coming in and out at the same time. So the so-called peak travel time is actually a much bigger window than people are thinking of. And it's actually during that window when people will be part heavily on Auburn Street because when the church and the square is in session or the school is having an event, it's outside of the regular peak travel times. What we think of as peak travel times and based on the number of folks who are parked on Water Street, I'm sure that all of the Auburn Street spaces are gonna get used. So no disrespect to the traffic study. I think we are thinking about it incorrectly. I think we're we're we're thinking it. <v Speaker 1>I'm gonna stop you 'cause I think we're gonna go</v> back over what we just went over. So, but thank you. But before you go, Scott, if you don't mind me calling you Scott, would you like to say anything? <v Speaker 5>There's a lot there,</v> but the, we can go back and and check the check gaps if we have that information. I'm not sure that we have that information, but gaps on, on Elliot Street, the, the, the numbers based on COVID, The trip generation, the, the trip generation does include all vehicles. What we've, what what a lot of, what a lot of the industry is, is, is saying what I, what I've talked about with peers is that any, any decrease in project generated traffic due to people working remotely, people staying home may be balanced out by the Amazon deliveries and other vehicles coming to the, to the, to the facilities. Those don't typically occur. They, they typically occur throughout the day and not necessarily during the, the rush hours, the emergency vehicles. We show them coming from both directions and I think, yeah, I think that's, that's what I can respond to <v Speaker 1>Right now.</v> Okay, thanks. So we're just gonna move on to other folks, but <v Speaker 10>If I could just very quickly say one thing very,</v> the current situation is as I pull onto Route 16, I have to make eye contact with the people coming outta the school at the same time so that we aren't at cross purposes and cause an accident. But that's really not good enough for this project. If there's road safety not designed into the project from the get go, people will get hurt. <v Speaker 1>Thanks very much.</v> Yep, right there. <v Speaker 11>Hi there. Hi there. I'll sign this. Okay.</v> After my remarks. Sure, sure. I'm Judy Dixon. I spoke the last time about my appreciation for this project and the deep afford or affordability that it brings to our community. I'm here to talk to you tonight with a few fun facts. One is that while I live at 94 Oak Street, which is in the northeast section of town, I worked at Memorial School for the last seven years and I commuted by car and bike from that area to my position at the school. I accessed the area primarily via Union and Pond Road, using them interchangeably to enter and exit the area and drive past the property in question. After last month's meeting, I was really reflecting on my time commuting in and out of that area. Also, another fun fact is that I'm a runner and have trained for Boston twice. So I would work until four 30 or five 30 at Memorial, leave my car there and go run up to Elm Bank to do a couple of laps and then return to my car. And I remember that I did not find those runs up during that time to be really congested and trafficy in the area that we're all discussing tonight. I did not find my commutes home when I passed through Union to head to Pond Road to be memorably congested. There were isolated days when something went bad. Ice storms in that part of town can be rough. If a branch went down, if there was a fender bender, if there was road work, things could get backed up. Another fun fact about me is that I'm very curious and so I decided that I wasn't just going to rely on my memory and think that a whole bunch of people, people who I really care about, because it was a community that I worked with, could be wrong. So I, since we've been together, visited the area eight times, actually in the last two weeks in these rush hours that we're talking about. And I documented my visits and I've submitted that all via writing through inviting via Amanda. So you'll see my log. I'm not saying that traffic never happens, but I am saying that I went on a night when there was bumper to bumper to bumper on route nine bumper to bumper to bumper on 1 35 and I had a smooth drive on 16 all the way up past Auburn through the light up Union to come home. I entered Auburn multiple times and took lefts and rights. I entered Leach Lane, I did encounter traffic. Today was my last visit before this meeting. I did encounter traffic today east of the whole area that we're talking about. As the gentleman mentioned, I went past Memorial School, turned around on Riverbend and came back down through because I saw that there was traffic congested. It took me three minutes to go from Farm Hill Road to Union and that was like really rolling bumper to bumper. There were multiple trucks and work vehicles along that very narrow stretch of 16. Again, this is east of the area that we're discussing. They were pulled over for various projects. There were al there was also a police presence that was causing a lot of curiosity among drivers as we rolled past. When I got to the light, I went through that there was absolutely no congestion, no traffic in the area that we're talking about tonight. Again, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. I'm saying it was not my experience. It was not something that I found or encountered between eight, in about 8 45 on four visits in the morning and between 4 45 and about six 30 in the evening. Final thing I wanna say just came up to this evening. There's a lot of talk about the traffic leaving this development and I wanna remind us all that we're talking about affordable housing. People who live in affordable housing do not all work between nine and 5:00 PM maybe many of us in this room are privileged to experience rush hour. Some of those people will be leaving and, and returning during the times that we may be used to leaving our houses and coming home. But the person who serves you Duncan's coffee is not leaving at eight o'clock to get to to work in the morning. The person that draws your blood at the hospital in an emergency is not necessarily arriving back for dinner at five o'clock. And the person who's checking you out at Roach Brothers may be there until eight or nine o'clock when the store closes. So I want us to think about the population that will be living there, including seniors who will likely be retired. Thank you so much for your time. Thank <v Speaker 1>You.</v> Who else would like to be heard? Yes sir. <v Speaker 12>My name is Ed Sharia.</v> I live at eight Auburn Street and I'm a town meeting member. First of all, let me start off by saying it took me, 'cause I counted to myself tonight, more than four seconds tonight to come to this meeting off of Auburn Street. And goodness knows I go off of Auburn Street every day. It's a chore. Why do I say that? Because in another life I was a substitute teacher and on the way to school in a snowstorm, I got rear-ended coming out of Auburn Street. Why? Because the person put on their brakes and you, as you know, when you put on your brakes, your car speeds up skidded right into me. There's gonna be accidents there and you know, I'm gonna say something that's not gonna be popular to you folks. You're gonna be responsible for that. <v Speaker 1>I'm gonna stop you right there. No, we're not.</v> So keep it on the project. Keep it on the project or I'm gonna shut the mic off and just, I wanna just make sure we're talking about the same thing here for a minute. Scott. Four seconds is the delta four seconds is the increase from the existing, not what you can anticipate as the delay getting out of Auburn. It's four seconds more than what you're experiencing today. <v Speaker 12>Thank you for bringing that to my attention.</v> I recognize that. May I ask the engineer through you, sir, a question? You may tell me the days you folks were there to do this study on Auburn Street onto exiting Auburn Street <v Speaker 4>Through you, Mr.</v> <v Speaker 5>Chair. May 21st.</v> <v Speaker 1>Thank you. And,</v> <v Speaker 12>And the day of the week that, that was,</v> <v Speaker 5>I believe that was Thursday.</v> <v Speaker 12>So correct me if I'm wrong because I'm older.</v> You went through once <v Speaker 5>That's the standard protocol.</v> Yes. Through you, Mr. Chair. <v Speaker 12>You know St. Benedict's I think has moved</v> to their new location. So my question is, was the any study done for the change in traffic pattern coming onto Route 16 as a result of St. Benedict's being moved <v Speaker 5>Through you, Mr.</v> Chair St. Benedict's didn't do a traffic study, <v Speaker 12>I don't think.</v> That was my question to just take into consideration. Study added traffic of St. Benedict's at the, at the new location that they're at in relation to additional traffic on Route 16 <v Speaker 5>Through you, Mr.</v> Chair? Yes, we did. We had to estimate the traffic from the St. Benedict expansion or, or relocation and expansion. We added that to the future condition. And that's in, that's as part of the traffic study. <v Speaker 12>Thank you, sir. That said,</v> did you ever, in part of your study exit from Auburn Street on Route 16? <v Speaker 5>Yes.</v> <v Speaker 12>How many times? So you, I'm</v> <v Speaker 5>Sorry.</v> I'm sorry, what? What's the que, did I, are you asking if I personally exited or, because we did it, we did an analysis of the counts at the intersection. We added our project traffic to that, so we did do that analysis. <v Speaker 1>Okay. What's the, what's the real question? In</v> <v Speaker 12>Real life, did you go from Auburn Street onto Route 16?</v> <v Speaker 1>I'm gonna stop you here. It's not a</v> cross-examination. Do you have a I'm <v Speaker 12>Not cross-examining him, sir. I</v> <v Speaker 1>I What's the, what, what is, are you questioning the data?</v> Is that it? Yes I am. The data's no good. Is that, is that your <v Speaker 12>Correct.</v> <v Speaker 1>And it's no good because he didn't personally make that</v> <v Speaker 12>True?</v> No, because it wasn't done properly. <v Speaker 1>What was improper about the study? Yes. What</v> <v Speaker 12>Was in, I'm curious, I wanna know</v> how many times in the course of this study they did an examination themselves of going from Auburn Street on Route 16. <v Speaker 1>Hold on a second. Was your study done in accordance</v> with the the, the it? <v Speaker 5>Yeah. Yes.</v> <v Speaker 1>Does the ITT E require its engineers to get in the car</v> and drive over and over and over through the intersection? No. No. Okay. So it <v Speaker 5>And and and price</v> <v Speaker 1>It to say it's done in accordance with the requirements</v> of your industry? Yes. Yes. It's, well, we're gonna, okay. You don't need to dig beyond that. That's fine. Yeah. Interject what is gonna be the scope of our peer review on this? Yeah, we're having, someone is going to do the same thing they did with the same qualifications that they have on our <v Speaker 12>Dime,</v> <v Speaker 1>On, on their dime.</v> On their dime, their, but, and we'll see if it turns out that their dad is bunk, we might find that out. But for the time being that they weren't behind the wheel is of no relevance. Can I'll give you one more shot. <v Speaker 12>Okay. Riverbend has activities I'll</v> give you, I'll go to this. We talk about signage tonight. Interestingly, and I don't know the status of this, but I know that the selectmen years ago we had a big argument about parking on Auburn Street and the Selectmen voted unanimously not to put sign any signs up on Auburn Street regarding parking Question. Is that an adjudication that needs to be changed? <v Speaker 1>Possibly. Possibly.</v> <v Speaker 12>Do I get one more?</v> <v Speaker 1>Yes.</v> <v Speaker 12>Thank you. I appreciate that. Get</v> <v Speaker 1>One, right? You get another one.</v> <v Speaker 12>It was an incident</v> because in a year time frame, the wonderful fire department came to my home four times and there was extended parking on Auburn Street and they had a very difficult time coming down Auburn Street, let alone turning around. Was that included realistically in your study, say by going to the fire department? <v Speaker 1>Alright, I'm gonna stop you there for one second.</v> At the time that that study was at, at the time that that occurred, <v Speaker 12>Yes</v> <v Speaker 1>Sir.</v> These drives didn't exist. <v Speaker 12>The what didn't exist, sir,</v> <v Speaker 1>Can you put that up?</v> <v Speaker 4>Proposed driveway?</v> <v Speaker 1>Yeah. These, these pathways did not exist.</v> So there it's an improved condition. You see the trucks will come in, whether they come from this direction or this direction. Follow down here and you'll, they'll pass through here and go out. This is, yeah, this is the end and that's the out. <v Speaker 12>But if there's parking on Auburn Street, like there was on</v> that occasion, they couldn't get down the street. <v Speaker 1>Is there, is there room for a, a emergency vehicle</v> to get down here if there's a car parked on the street? Yes. Thank you. Yep. Okay. Next, who else would like to be heard? Yes, yes. <v Speaker 12>Roger Scott.</v> <v Speaker 1>Payment address for the record.</v> And then if we could just get you to sign the paper. <v Speaker 12>Can I sign it after I'm</v> <v Speaker 13>Finished May.</v> Thank you. Roger Scott, 40 Water Street and a member of the town meeting. I do want to say, I think your study has a little floor in it and you just said itself, if a car is parked on the street, a car, one car, well, oftentimes it's more than a car. If you're gonna put this big 32 building and there's gonna be a lot of people that are gonna come visit people in this building, they're not gonna bother with that parking lot because they're gonna have to work themselves around and they might get in the line to get out of that parking lot. So there'll be people who will park on the right on that right hand side. So let's give you that. And then you had the situation where you based that study on the one car parked further away from the intersection of 16 and you're concerned that a UPS truck might want to get in there. So now you put a second car in there and you've got two people standing in line trying to take a right turn or a left turn. They're already there waiting for that interval. You described whatever that interval happens to be and now you have to get this thing and he's sticking his butt out onto Route 16, endangering the people on 16 as well as the neighbors. So I think that's something you have to seriously consider. Now you go ahead and you say, well, let's put up signs and you can't park there. Well now I'm on Water Street now to get off of Water Street at those busy times a day, I have to rely on courtesy because no one will let me get down to downtown Natick to make that left turn off of Water Street unless I make eye contact and give them a wave. And if they let me out, I'm out. A lot of people do this, they don't care. They wanna get to that green light. So you have to deal with the traffic coming this direction and then you get a time, you jump, hope you have a courteous person and then you happen to be able to get off your street. And that's five to 10 minutes. Usually it's not, not a few seconds. So I would have to say, if you're willing to put signs on Auburn Street to avoid the situation I first described, then you have to put signs on Water Street. I can't tell you that I've almost had head-on collisions waiting when somebody's zipping around that, that turn to go onto my street and there you are, the headlights are in your face and that's, that's close, close situation. I think you need to put signage on Water Street, bringing it down to a safe level where people can take rights and lefts and, and and actually use the with of that street to fit two cars safely. So I think that's another factor you have to consider. So the signage situation for that, and, and, and, and realistically you have to understand what you're doing to people's lives. You're putting them in a a, a dangerous situation. You get the school bus at eight 30 in the morning, that thing takes the turn and it's over into the other lane. So you gotta do these things if you're gonna drive a school bus and you've got children on the school bus. So it's, it's something that has to really be looked seriously upon. And I understand that you've done studies and they were conveniently in May and not in this time of year where you get a, a little weather in there and it's gonna, it's gonna change the dynamic maybe to your numbers off a little bit. But I think you need to do a couple of studies, one in the good weather and one in the wintertime when people are actually dealing with it. Okay, <v Speaker 1>I'm gonna stop you right there.</v> Thanks very much. Thank <v Speaker 13>You</v> <v Speaker 1>Scott.</v> Scott, would you like to respond to any of what you just heard? <v Speaker 5>I, I think that it's, if again,</v> I think we have sufficient spaces on site to accommodate visitors, I think that people would rather park closer to the building entrance if they're coming to visit someone. So they would park on site and not park on Auburn Street. I think it's easier for them to turn around on site than it is to turn around when they're parked on Auburn Street. So I I, I don't anticipate a lot of, again, I don't anticipate people from our development parking on, on Auburn Street. I if they're, you know, a school bus would have to swing wide to enter into, into the River Bend School driveway. So there's not much else I can say about that. <v Speaker 1>Alright. Does anybody else wish to be heard?</v> Okay, we got, yeah, right over here we're gonna have two more comments and then we're gonna take a quick break. <v Speaker 14>Hi. Hi there. I'm reading from my phone.</v> I don't have my reading glasses on so it's the <v Speaker 1>Best we can before you, before you do just</v> <v Speaker 14>Yep.</v> My name is Rachel a and I live at 32 Leach Lane and I'll sign this when I'm done. Okay. First I wanna thank the zoning board for listening and sit considering the experiences of the residents in South Natick. We live this traffic every single day. I hope you will look at the detail and consider the detail that the residents provide and have to deal with the dangers, the delays versus information that is predicted in a study from a one day visit. For what it's worth, I just had to wait in a line of traffic on Route 16 just now when I was trying to get here at six 30 so that traffic was still going on. So like I said, I live in South Natick, I'm a parent of three kids. I'm really worried about what putting a development of this size in such a condensed area. Well due to the traffic and safety of the roads and walkways as we've been discussing. Several years ago I was riding bikes with two of my kids, my boys on the sidewalk. And we were going down to the little league fields. Two boys were in front, I was right behind them just as we biked past Auburn Street. We approached 46 Elliot Street, which is a house containing a small business and that's about three doors down as you head into South Natick Village. A car heading west towards Sherborne, took a quick left hand turn into the driveway and came with an inches of hitting and potentially severely injuring one of my boys as a parent and frankly as a human being, I was ex, it was an extremely scary moment. I followed that car at the back of the building and asked them very nicely if they realized what had almost just happened. The driver replied they were in a hurry, in a hurry. I can't imagine what almost just happened. I think of that incident often to this day as I walk, walk the dog run or bike past that driveway. So the idea of putting more than a hundred additional residents and countless guests, delivery vehicles, et cetera, some of whom may be in a hurry, is a major safety concern to all of the pedestrians in this neighborhood. Not just me, including potential residents of this development. I also wanna mention that I have the same issues getting out of Leach Lane every single day. Whether I have to take a left to head towards Wellesley and creep across in hopes that somebody will let me go or I have to sit and wait for about 10 cars to not even look and ignore that I'm sitting there trying to take a right just to bring my daughter to gymnastics. Usually what's about a seven minute drive becomes a 25 minute drive into Natick Center. I just wanna also bring to light that two people were recently hit on bicycles in the north in the month of of November in Natick. I just don't wanna wait until it's too late until somebody gets severely injured or even worse. I think it's worth it to make the effort now to keep our neighborhoods safe. This neighborhood was not meant to handle a development of this density and this many cars. I've worked at Memorial School two mornings a week for the past nine years. I leave my house at seven 40 and I arrive at Memorial around seven 50. The traffic on Route 16 coming from Sherborne is always backed up as far as the eye can see. Parents who drop their kids off with us often complain about the backup and being late and we tell 'em it's totally fine and they even are now asking us about other routes. It's usually still backed up when I leave Memorial at nine o'clock. I also think it's important to think about the residents of this potential development and what their experience is going to be like with so many people, a hundred plus residents, they will likely wait in line during the hours of seven to nine and three to six 30 just trying to exit their residence has been discussed here. It can add anywhere easily from five to 10 to 20 minutes. Somebody trying to get out in the traffic. There are also more streets than just Auburn. There are three or four more streets. So there's Water Street, there's River Street Shallower, and I think there's one more there. So we're not talking about people just trying to get out of Auburn, we're talking about all the residents on all those much deeper streets. Also trying to play the same game of Frogger that the folks on Auburn Street will have to do. If somebody's car breaks down, there's no public transportation as a backup. Like there might be in other parts of Natick to try and walk or bike somewhere means going up Union Street, which is, as you guys know, it's like a mile and a half long series of hills. I'm an Iron Man finisher two times. And even that hill to me as a training ride is extremely daunting. So to expect somebody to go up there with their kids or their work bags or whatever it is, I think is a fairly big ask, especially if it's 40 degrees or lower. I wanna be really clear, I speak for, I think most of the residents of South Natick, when I repeat we are not against affordable housing. We are not. We are against housing that is unsafe and inappropriate for the site and is trying to put a round peg in a square hole. I also feel it's important just to mention the two, two of the new several developments around town that are going up. One is at the top of Union Street on East Central Street, which is gonna be 30 units of housing and another one at the top of Union Street getting close to the top of Union Street, which will be 40 units of housing. And the influx of residents from those new buildings will put increased traffic pressure on the union streetlight, yes, but very well also more pressure on the South Natick intersection as all of those residents and their guests and delivery trucks and maintenance people, et cetera make their way to wherever they need to be, which is their right. But those two big new developments are quite large and those people are gonna be dispersing everywhere and that's fine. But I think we need to take that into consideration. It's not just the development that we're talking about here on Auburn Street. There are two huge other even bigger developments that also can have an impact on the traffic in South Natick. Just to, to wrap up, I wanna repeat the sentiment from another neighbor at the last meeting. We invite you to work with us, we are your fellow residents. We wanna make sure that the repurposing of the Elliot School is done right for those people who currently live in the neighborhood. And for those who may be coming, this is a chance to cre, create a project that works for everyone, the land, also the animals, the people, and the traffic. And we don't wanna do just what might work for a developer. Thank you. Thanks. Thank <v Speaker 1>You.</v> I saw one more hand. Can I see one more hand? Yes Scott, that I didn't ask you to weigh in if you want to just, I didn't figure. Will do. <v Speaker 15>Yes. Good evening, Mr. Chairman. Good, good evening.</v> Members of the board, thank you for allowing me to speak. My name is Gonzalo, I'm a resident of West Natick. I'm a member of the Natick Affordable Housing Trust. And full disclosure, I'm also a real estate developer for Somerville Community Corporation as the Chief Executive Officer. And we work around a lot of these issues every time we try to build a building of affordable housing like the one we're discussing today. I first want to say, I'm very happy to hear that people here are supportive of affordable housing and it seems to me that based on what I've heard, a lot of it has to do with traffic safety and to some degree traffic coordination. Based on what I heard from the study, traffic already exists. The building that is being built will add four seconds to what currently exists. So the safety issues already there, the fear issues already there, the eye contacts that are happening already there. It seems to me that this is less about the building and more around the tone of Natick coordinating an idea to make this a little bit better for traffic. When my kids were going to school at Brown School in West Natick, we kind of had the similar issue around the safety. You know, cars were coming in at the same time, you know, the cars were crisscrossing each other and there was a lot of safety issues myself as a parent at the time for young kids. And we decided to talk together about a way to solve the issue. The road was gonna be the same, the building was gonna be the same. There was really nothing we could do about it. And what we decided is to coordinate effort so that people would go in, five people would come out, there would be coordination at the front and at the back, and then they would move along after that. We didn't have really any traffic whatsoever and our kids were safe. I personally feel that the work that's being done around this development is very reasonable. I think it's important to note that the families that are gonna be served here are making about 34,000 to $72,000 a year. Those are gonna be the families that are gonna be served in looking at the data for the town of Natick. They're 2,221 employees right now and the average salary is 51,248. Most of the people that are gonna be living here are families that are looking to be served The Natick public schools. There's 525 employees. The average salary is 38,510 people. As one of my colleagues spoke before, this is about ton of Natick employees, Natick public school employees. These are the per people that serve coffee. They might work in different shifts than hours, but these are people that want to live in this community just like us. I'm <v Speaker 1>Just gonna stop you 'cause we heard that</v> and we appreciate it. Thank you. Appreciate it. <v Speaker 15>Thank</v> <v Speaker 1>You. Okay, last one.</v> That, that last one here. <v Speaker 16>Hi. Hi, my name is Susan. I live at eight Auburn Street.</v> I've been there for over 50 years. I volunteered for the school. I volunteered was, I was a co capt, I was a CI was a coach of ski team for 10 years. Six of them were unpaid and then we got the funding for them for, so I've been very involved with the town and what we're not talking about tonight that I see is that Auburn Street is a dead end street. It's very narrow and I don't, I would like to talk about safety because my husband was in the hospital seven times last year. <v Speaker 1>Sorry to hear that.</v> <v Speaker 16>Yes.</v> Well he's doing pretty well now, but excuse. Oh, thank you. But I, I would like to talk about safety. You've got the fire trucks coming in from a road I didn't even know existed. <v Speaker 1>Wait a minute, wait a minute.</v> <v Speaker 16>Are, am I wrong?</v> <v Speaker 1>Yeah.</v> <v Speaker 16>Oh,</v> <v Speaker 1>This is Route 16. Yeah, this is Auburn Street.</v> These are the roads that are gonna be part of the development. <v Speaker 16>How do they, I'm sorry, I don't wanna understand</v> how it goes around the, goes around the, <v Speaker 1>So this is the, this is the, this is,</v> this is the proposed roadway. <v Speaker 16>Just go back. That's not a roadway.</v> That's a driveway with lots of parking. <v Speaker 1>Well, they're showing the path of travel here. You see it?</v> <v Speaker 16>Yes, I do see the, I I don't see that as a road, but yes,</v> <v Speaker 1>It's not a road per se, it's not a public way.</v> <v Speaker 16>Well, but it's, it's a delay.</v> If we need a, a fire engine at our house, they have, that's a delay for us. <v Speaker 1>Your house, how they, they don't have to come in here</v> to get, where do you live? <v Speaker 16>Eight Auburn Street. The end. The end.</v> <v Speaker 1>You can see this one. Yep.</v> <v Speaker 16>I guess this truck can't see a number.</v> <v Speaker 1>Right,</v> <v Speaker 16>Right. And there have been issues</v> before of, of turning around. So from <v Speaker 1>The truck has to leave. Yeah.</v> <v Speaker 16>But,</v> <v Speaker 1>But this has nothing to do with that.</v> That's an existing condition. In other words, today <v Speaker 16>If this fire truck, right.</v> But what they generally do finish, oh, <v Speaker 1>Sorry.</v> If this truck needed to access your house, I presume it would drive in, stop and then have to leave. And when this development comes in, that truck will do the same thing. Or maybe it, what it will do is, we'll, when it backs out, it'll back in here's <v Speaker 16>And then help forward's what that would be help.</v> <v Speaker 1>Yeah. So that I I I would submit that</v> that sounds like an improved condition, at least as regards to your house. Well, <v Speaker 16>Yes and no.</v> There, there are no cars. That's a parking lot over there that you, you're asking them to back up. <v Speaker 1>This is all gonna be drives.</v> This is, this is, there's gonna be circulation through here with, with no impact except the positive one, perhaps on ability of a <v Speaker 16>Truck.</v> We're we're talking an emergency where they have to get out too. <v Speaker 1>Okay. We're gonna have you move on.</v> <v Speaker 16>I would ask that the drive,</v> maybe they make a little wider driveway so that firetruck can get out quickly. You're <v Speaker 1>Talking about the street?</v> <v Speaker 16>No, I'm talking about the exit.</v> <v Speaker 1>Be specific. This is a road.</v> <v Speaker 16>I'm trying to be specific. Yeah,</v> <v Speaker 1>No, I'm just want to make sure that I understand</v> and that everyone here understands what you're saying. This is a road that's Auburn Street. Right? Right. That's a public way. This right here is an internal drive within the development. Okay. Do you want <v Speaker 16>That internal drive on the right</v> has a bunch of parking spaces. Yeah. Here they're going to have to back up very slowly. Right now there are no cars parked in that driveway at night or most of the day here. Yes. Yep. Now you're putting in cars. Yep. Here. A lot of parking in here. They're gonna have to drive back up much more slowly. <v Speaker 1>Is is, is this,</v> this parking area right here was built in accordance with the requirements of building code right. Drive aisles, travel aisles with the width of the stalls, the length of the stalls. This is all being done in accordance with, with the, the rules. It's private <v Speaker 16>Property.</v> So, well, what I'm asking for is a wider exit. Exit exit. The purpose to that driveway <v Speaker 1>Here.</v> Yeah. And for the purpose of a truck from here backing in. <v Speaker 16>Yes. Okay. How does a big truck get out</v> of Auburn Street Sand? <v Speaker 1>How does a truck get out of there today?</v> <v Speaker 16>With, with difficulty. Okay.</v> I have not been able to get by on Auburn Street many times. <v Speaker 1>So just so we're clear, you're saying you're concerned</v> about this development's impact on your safety, but I I think as we work through it, to the extent that they can accommodate a wider drive out here, it would improve the safety in your house. <v Speaker 16>Yes. Yes. That's what I'm saying.</v> <v Speaker 1>Alright, well can you make a note of that? Yes. Yep.</v> <v Speaker 16>Many times the River Bend School has</v> after school activities or grandparents stay. Auburn Street is a disaster area. Now we're gonna limit the parking a little bit more with this. No parking signs. We have asked the Montessori, oh, it's not Montessori. Any River Bend. Sorry. We have asked the River Bend School to only park on one side of the street when they have events. Can we go back to the, the slide where you had the no parking in the, the green and the red. You've got total green at the end of the street. If you put two cars there, it's gonna be very hard for us to get out of our driveway. And they put it at the end of the street near the Charles River too. They put cars there. We have had to call the police. We have had to call the fire department. <v Speaker 1>Okay. Just so I want, again,</v> I just wanna make sure we're all understanding exactly what the, and being clear existing condition is and what the, what, what the future may look like. First of all, this signage is, is an as a concept. It's, it's only a proposal. So it may or may not be part of what's ultimately <v Speaker 16>Okay.</v> And I'm just giving you my information. <v Speaker 1>IIII understand. Let me, lemme finish right now.</v> This entire thing is green. <v Speaker 16>Yes. And we have asked the Mod Riverbend,</v> when they have major events to ask the people just to park on one side of the street here. You've got green on both sides of the street at times down towards us. Yeah. <v Speaker 1>Here. Which it is today. It</v> <v Speaker 16>Is today.</v> If you, but we've asked them Montessori only to park on one side. Okay. And so, and they've gone along with that. <v Speaker 1>Do you suggest, do you suggest that the future they'll,</v> they'll be less courteous than they are today. It's, you have an informal understanding with those folks, right? Would it be different in the future? I, <v Speaker 16>I don't know.</v> I'm just giving you information Okay. That I have. <v Speaker 1>Okay. Yeah. I'm just trying to understand it.</v> <v Speaker 16>Okay. Now I have one</v> other point. When it snows the river, the, the road gets narrower, much narrower. You cannot get by now. And I think there aren't enough parking spaces and, and you guys can argue that, but it's a dead end street. There is no transportation to South Natick at all. As far as I know. And they're gonna park, some of the residents are gonna park on the street and in the snow <v Speaker 1>Of the, the, the, of the development Yes.</v> Are gonna park on the street. Yes. <v Speaker 16>Okay.</v> <v Speaker 1>Alright. Thank you very much.</v> <v Speaker 16>Okay. And I would like to tell you one thing,</v> we won't be here next time in January. <v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, I didn't understand that.</v> <v Speaker 16>Well, I'm just, it seems to me we have</v> a major interest in this and we would like to be at every meeting. However, we won't be here next time. Oh, <v Speaker 1>Okay.</v> I, alright, well we're, we're happy to take your comments via email or letter. Absolutely. And they'll be part made part of the record so you don't have to physically be here. Okay. <v Speaker 16>Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You</v> <v Speaker 1>Watch the video too?</v> Yeah, sure. And also you can watch the video if you like. We're gonna take a five minute break. Okay. <v Speaker 5>Two.</v> <v Speaker 1>There we go. Two. Alright, thanks very much.</v> So you round two? Yes. Okay. So the next element is civil. Civil and stormwater. Yes. Okay, here we go. You're on. Alright, <v Speaker 5>Good evening.</v> My name is Dana Ello. I'm a, a civil engineer with Merrill Engineers and land surveyors. As you mentioned earlier, we haven't really started the the peer review process yet, but we just wanted to give the board an overview of, you know, where we are in the, the site design process to this point. Number five is located on the southwesterly side of Auburn Street. It's at the intersection of Elliot Street, is, you know, pretty well aware. The site consists of approximately 2.84 acres and contains the existing historic Elliot school, which is located in this area. The location of the parcel is within the residential general zoning district. And the existing topography on the, the property varies from, it's a high point along Elliot Street of about approximately elevation 1 24. And it slopes down gradually towards the fence in the rear of the parcel, which is approximately elevation one 20. From there it's, it slopes down steeply towards the, the Charles River, which is located in the southeast portion of the property and sits at approximately elevation 1 0 5. The lot is cleared inside of this, this fence area. This is all altered existing playground, school, parking, et cetera. The wetland resource areas were flagged by Brad Holmes of Environmental Consulting and Restoration in July of 2023. And the Conservation Commission has recently reviewed the limits of the wetland resource areas. And they've issued an order of resource area donation or an OA this past, excuse me, this past April of 2024. The bordering vegetated wetlands associated with the Charles River is shown in Ballou here. And then the limit of the 100 foot buffer is shown in green, as well as the Natick Conservation Commission's. 40 foot limit of structure buffer and the 25 foot limit of alteration buffer, which are also shown in green. Additionally, there's the 100 foot riverfront area in magenta and the 200 foot riverfront area also in magenta. And lastly, there's the limit of the FEMA flood hazard area Zone A, which is approximately elevation one 10 or so. As we work through the site that's shown in orange. The existing site currently has no stormwater controls on it. The majority of runoff from the roof. And this rear parking area just kind of flow overland towards the, the, the Charles River. Currently the moving on to the proposed site development. This project proposes the renovation of the existing historic Elliot School here with, which will include the creation of nine new residential units, as well as the construction of a new 23 unit residential building with an approximate footprint of 9,000 square feet. There's a proposed driveway with a new turnaround and access throughout the site with additional parking and, and some stormwater management system. And as well as all new subsurface utilities are being proposed as part of this project, the new stormwater management system will comply with both the natick stormwater management, erosion control regulations, as well as the DEP stormwater handbook. The existing building has a basement currently with, within it with a, an approximate slab elevation of one 16. As I mentioned, the FEMA flood hazard elevation for the 100 year storm event is approximately elevation one 10. So we're, we're still pretty well above that. And then for the proposed building that will not have a, a basement, but the finished floor has been set at approximately 1 23 0.75. Again, you know, well above that 100 year flood elevation, the, the proposed driveway has been configured in a a u formation. The main entrance would, would be closer to Elliot Street. This would be two way as you enter here into the, the circle. Once you get beyond the circle, we, we proposed it to be one way just to allow the driveway to be a little bit narrower and just reduce the overall impervious area on site. And there's a, a second exit only to the south of that entrance onto Arbit Street, kind of in this area. We are proposing 45 new parking spaces. Some of these are around the new turnaround, which has been designed to allow or to accommodate a, an emergency vehicle to navigate the new circle here as necessary and exit the site in that direction. We are proposing spaces all along the driveway in this area, again, in another effort to reduce pavement. We've shown some compact ev ready parking spaces in this area, as I've shown now that there are approximately seven f 7.5 feet wide and 15 feet long. This is kind of based on the, the minimum space requirements for the highway mixed use regulations. We understand that there have been some discussion about the, the size of these spaces and we look forward to working with the board and their, the, the peer review consultant just to, you know, finalize these spaces ultimately. <v Speaker 17>Oh, oh Jesus. Oh, that's me.</v> <v Speaker 1>That's me.</v> Is there gonna be a waiver? Is there a waiver request for the stalls? <v Speaker 2>We have a waiver listed,</v> but as I said, this is ever evolving and preliminary. Yep. Okay. <v Speaker 5>So we, we have proposed some, some sort</v> of snow storage areas in three locations. One of them being here, another large area in this area. And then to the rear of the site. We have a third snow storage area as well. We, oh, after several meetings with the, the select board and the the towns design review team, it has become clear that the town certainly wants us to maintain the similar feel around the existing Elliot school here. With that in mind, we've done our best to try to maintain the existing grades as best we can and just keep those tributary areas small. So we're just doing some minor grading just to make sure that that stormwater moves through the, the site as it as it should. We are proposing new u utility connections to both buildings. These include some subsurface electric. We, we have shown three transformer locations. Ultimately this will be up to the, the utility company to, to select the, the final location. But these are the areas that we, we think works work best. So that's where we're hoping for these location preferably. Up in the front here we are proposing new electric service connections for both buildings, including data and the communication utilities as, as well as new stormwater management system, which we're showing three subsurface infiltration systems. Water from the impervious areas will be treated by using low impact development techniques, including three bio retention areas, one in the front of the property went to the rear, and then went by the, the, the dumpster pad area. In, in this area we have done our best to keep the, the tributary small as I mentioned, just to reduce the, the overall site grading just to, to keep the site looking similar to what it does look like. Currently. We will be proposing new sewer connections based on Title V. We have calculated the sanitary sewer flows to be 6,270 gallons per day. And we've calculated the water consumption for the project to be approximately 7,838 gallons per day. We are not proposing gas for either of the buildings that they will be en entirely electric. There'll be no gas for either one of them. Storm water from all of the impervious areas will be managed and treated for both water quality and quantity. As previously mentioned there, there are new stormwater management facilities on, on the property currently the stormwater from the, the existing roof runoff and the rear parking area just flows overland towards the Charles River. The proposed stormwater management system will reduce peak rates of runoff for all design storms, while also providing the, the minimum 80% total suspended solids removal as required by the, the stormwater handbook. The system will also exceed the, the minimum recharge volume requirements for the proposed impervious area. Soils testing was performed on the site throughout the site this past May, and revealed good pious sand with a relatively deep estimated seasonal high groundwater death depth. The testing was witnessed by Michael Bere, the director of public health. And the proposed system will, as I mentioned, try to utilize low impact development as, as best we can as we work our way around the, the system. I mentioned the, the, the bio retention areas. And then in the front yard we'll be utilizing low impact site design credit number three, which will utilize a qualifying pervious area. Runoff from this area will be directed towards the large 15,000 square foot pond area that currently exists on the corner of Elliot Street and Auburn Street. Again, the, the soils testing in this area re revealed good pervious material with a relatively flat slope on it, less than 5% as re as required to be used as a a qualifying pervious area. So that will work well as a a low impact development design technique, excuse me, roof runner from both roof areas from both the existing school and the proposed building will be directed into the two larger subsurface infiltration systems. Systems one and two. In this area we have provided four feet of separation from the bottom of the system to the estimated seasonal high groundwater elevation in each area. This is to avoid any concerns due to groundwater mounding. While the systems are in use, the site has been designed to meet the current, the current Aquifer protection district regulations. We, we will have a detailed operations and and maintenance plan for both during construction and post-construction to ensure that the systems are maintained properly throughout their existence and to make sure that they treat stormwater the, the way they were designed. Looking forward, a a notice of intent will be filed with the conservation commission in the near future work within the wetland resource areas or their buffers has been minimized. We have maintained the existing fence line as I mentioned earlier, and we've kept all work to within that existing altered area that's within the, the fence line. We're not proposing any permanent work beyond the fence line. We do show a, a small area of temporary alteration just for the, the relocation of the existing foundation drains from the, the, the existing Elliot school that will take place in this area. It's approximately 306 square feet, but that'll be temporary and re-vegetated to its existing state. Since we're avoiding any new alteration of any new area on site within the buffer zones, we should not have any impact on any, any habitat area on the site. We have reviewed this current layout with Claire Rundel, the conservation agent, and she has not mentioned any ma major concerns with the, the site design. We will be going through that process after we get a little further along with the, the ZBA, we have proposed a, a contiguous line of silt sock surrounding the site on the down gradient edge of all limits of work. This will ensure that there's no sedimentation of any resource areas or their, their buffer zones. I think that's pretty much it for the site design. I can take questions or I can, I can turn it over to Rebecca to discuss the answer. I <v Speaker 1>Got a quick question for council.</v> Is ComCom advisory to us on that stuff? <v Speaker 2>No. So we're gonna be complying with the ComCom</v> and going through that process parallel to this. Yep. <v Speaker 1>Is there permit separate and apart from ours</v> or to get rolled into the comp? <v Speaker 2>It, it's separate. Oh,</v> <v Speaker 1>Okay.</v> <v Speaker 18>Right. The town wetlands bylaw is a bylaw,</v> not a zoning bylaw. Correct? <v Speaker 2>Correct, correct.</v> And, and the, the newer bylaw is the aquifer bylaw, which wasn't in existence when we filed for the comp permits. So technically it doesn't apply but we are gonna comply with it anyway. <v Speaker 1>Okay. Does anybody on the board have any questions?</v> I'm sorry, could you mind if I call you by your first name? Sure. <v Speaker 5>Which is? It's Dana.</v> <v Speaker 1>Dana. Does anybody have questions for Dana? Go</v> <v Speaker 6>Dana.</v> So is there any work planned for the street itself? Any new utilities in increased size improvements coming down the street to the development? <v Speaker 5>Yep, as far as we know, we,</v> the utilities in the street have been verified by the, the, the engineering department. They seem to be adequate as far as you know, sewer capacity, water capacity. So I think we're in good shape there. We can just tie in, there'll be some temporary alteration within the street for the connections, but generally that's, that's it. Can <v Speaker 1>You just point out where the connections will be?</v> <v Speaker 5>Sure. So we have some sewer,</v> the existing sewer line is coming through here. We're gonna try to use that. We may have to replace it, which is more than likely the electricity electric will come off. I think there's a pole right in this area <v Speaker 1>Is that, that's above ground.</v> <v Speaker 5>It'll be coming down the pole</v> and then over to the transformer underground. Yeah. Okay. So we'll just have a drop off the, the pole itself. Yep. And that's generally it, the same thing with the, the common the data lines. Yep. Board any <v Speaker 8>Other questions?</v> Yeah, can you remind me what can and can't happen in the both 200 foot river river zone setback and then also the wetland done? <v Speaker 5>Sure. So we're not proposing anything within any resource</v> area other than the river front area. The river front area. We try to keep the building out as as much as we can out of the, the 100 foot, we generally have done that. There's a small corner over here, but we're currently looking at different options. Cliff can speak to that later, but we're looking at different options for the building itself. So that may work itself out. The commission does have a, a 40 foot, no, no structure setback, which is runs along here. So we've maintained the building outside of that so we're not encroaching on that 40 foot buffer. And then they have a 25 foot no touch, which kind of corresponds at its closest point to the existing fence line here. So we're kind of meeting that as well just by nature, just by holding that, that limit of work that the existing fence line has. The 200 foot riverfront areas over here we are, it, it's previously altered so it's somewhat degraded. There is some, some pavement within it. So we're, we're working with the commission on that, but we'll be keeping the building as upgrading as as we can, keeping it out of the, the 40 foot buffer and that that's something that they seem comfortable with our, our informal talks with them recently. <v Speaker 8>Okay,</v> <v Speaker 7>Thank you.</v> <v Speaker 19>Any idea what's gonna happen when the dam comes on</v> and what if they're gonna take the dam down? <v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's, it's, it's upgradient from us.</v> I, I, I haven't seen, I understand there's a report and a design going on currently it's upgrading, so I, I would assume they're gonna release it in a, a very controlled manner so there's no downstream flooding. But I think ultimately there's really not, you know, currently the, the flow is coming. It's, it's always there. So it's coming through the dam now it's just the dam's holding back the water up above. Once that's gone though, I'm still able to drain it down at a, a controlled rate and it's really shouldn't impact the, the limits of the river or the flow or the, or the elevation or anything like that. It's, have you ever <v Speaker 19>Read any studies or anything about damage being removed</v> and what the impact is down in the river? <v Speaker 5>I know they work, hold on one second.</v> Sorry, I not, who is his? No, Rob. Rob, thank you. I'm, I'm not too, that's, that's a little bit outside of my, my expertise, but I, excuse me, I, I do believe that they have to work very hard to make sure that there's minimal impacts. You know, <v Speaker 7>I mean the reason why I'm asking is your 40 foot is like</v> literally right on the line. If the river rises oh a foot, you know, will that, will that caused the 40 foot that building then become within the 40 foot area of the, of the river? I wouldn't distance from the river wouldn't. <v Speaker 5>So this is, you can see there's a very</v> wide flat area here. Yeah. So the river elevation fluctuates even as it is. So with with larger storms, there's more water coming over the dam. It it does, but is it <v Speaker 7>Possible that that big wide, flat area can be calm,</v> become underwater once they take the dam away? <v Speaker 5>I wouldn't, I, I wouldn't expect so,</v> so basically it's the, the flow coming in is always gonna be the flow coming out. So what what we have now is that it's the same flow in the river. The dams there holding it back, but it still has to allow the same amount, you know what I mean? Once it's gone, there'll be the same flow coming through. So as long as they, you know, it may be different for however long it is that they're releasing, but it shouldn't really impact it over the long term. It might, it should just be a temporary rise, if anything. And then, you know, again, I haven't seen them three, four you that for certain the design. But that's, that's the way I would expect it to be. It should be pretty minimal impact. I I wouldn't expect it to change the, the hydrology and the, the limits of the resource areas. And this actually is a, it's at the bottom of a very steep slope. It's like 15 feet high. So there's really not a lot of, you know, it's really gonna have to go up uphill to, you know, change the, <v Speaker 7>Is that slope earth or is it wrap</v> <v Speaker 5>Or Yeah, it's earth.</v> So you know, this is basically at the bottom of that slope and for it to change, it's gonna have to start working its way up gradient, which, which take a a lot <v Speaker 6>With the increase in in population.</v> Are there, is there another fire hydrant or any other, you know, life safety improvements along the street? <v Speaker 5>We do, we actually reviewed this with the fire department.</v> We have one, my, my eyes are failing me a little bit, but I believe this one down in this area. And then we also have one I think up over here. <v Speaker 6>Ex existing? Yeah, existing. Existing.</v> And that's, that's adequate. <v Speaker 5>Yep. And they were happy with that. Okay.</v> As far as, as far as we know, <v Speaker 1>Anybody else on the board have any questions?</v> Does anybody else here have any questions, comments? Alright. Yep. Come on up. You don't have to re you don't have to resign, but just, just meant your name and address for the record one more time. <v Speaker 13>Roger Scott. 40 Water Street.</v> And I just wanna ask the question is currently that's like asphalt back there in that, that parking lot in the back. So is that gonna all be torn up so that, that the water can drain? Or is it just be gonna be like icy patches or any possibility that, you know, how, how is that, how is that gonna not be a problem for the people who are parking in that area? <v Speaker 5>Sure, so, so the, there is an existing,</v> as you can see here, there's an existing PA parking area. You're referring to this. And then once we get to the proposed conditions, it's, it's very, it's very similar in, in space and size. The difference would be, as I mentioned, we'll be changing the elevations as as, as minimally as we can. But we, we will be directing runoff, you know, there'll be curbing on either side and we'll be directing into the subsurface infiltration point with a low point at the property line to keep runoff controlled on our property and treated and directed into the subsurface infiltration systems where currently it just kind of flows over land overland without any controls. So we'll be controlling it, keeping it on our property and bringing it back. Whereas currently you, you, you are probably seeing some coming down off of the parking lot into Auburn Street currently. <v Speaker 13>Well, I don't live on Auburn Street,</v> but I do know that the area, it, it doesn't look like it would pass current regulations as far as drainage would go. And that spot there with all the check the checks sent, that's the parking places. How many parking places are that? <v Speaker 1>45.</v> <v Speaker 13>That's 45 right in that spot. Oh,</v> <v Speaker 1>45 on the site? No, that's</v> <v Speaker 13>Oh 45 on the, so in that particular area,</v> do you have any idea in that particular spot? <v Speaker 5>This particular area?</v> <v Speaker 13>Yeah, the tr</v> where the traffic is gonna be going out the door, you know, with the parking, you know the cars are gonna pull out and go out into Auburn Street using the <v Speaker 4>Infiltration with the parking. Just clarify.</v> <v Speaker 5>So we have 11 and five, so there's 16 in that area.</v> <v Speaker 13>16 spots,</v> <v Speaker 4>Yeah. Filtration system is underneath.</v> <v Speaker 5>That's great. It is subsurface infiltration system.</v> <v Speaker 13>All right, thank you.</v> <v Speaker 1>Thank you.</v> Anybody else wish to be heard on this? Okay, well we have a little bit more time. So what's next? Landscaping. Let's do that. Okay. Thank you. <v Speaker 4>Thank you.</v> <v Speaker 20>How I make</v> <v Speaker 4>It bigger?</v> <v Speaker 20>Excuse me while I learn how to recon control the,</v> hi everyone, I am Rebecca Bashan, landscape architect of my own practice and we will figure out how to make it go back to full screen. Thank you. Mine's smaller. Make it bigger. <v Speaker 4>These landscaping plans. Alright, posted</v> <v Speaker 20>There.</v> All right, there we go. All right, now I've lost my notes. My goodness. Starting again. I'm Rebecca Bohan, a landscape architect for the project and as Dana mentioned, we're really trying to keep the site as close to existing conditions as possible visually, particularly from Elliot Street and Auburn Street. So you can see on the top left of the plan is the existing lawn and those kind of olive green circles and the kind of star shaped green shapes are existing trees that we're proposing to remain the darker, more colorful circles. And yeah, they're all circles on this plan are proposed new trees and evergreen screening. So we're really trying to also keep the granite and chain fence along Elliot Street and Auburn Street and enhancing all the screening on the off street property lines with native evergreen trees and shrubs. That existing fence will only be maintained or only be disturbed as necessary for the driveways and site distances. That lawn will remain as passive open space. No permanent structures are proposed in that area at all. Along the building facades you can see a darker green shading. Those are low planting beds proposed so that we're not going to be blocking obstructing views of any of the historic features of the existing building. But we'll be providing, sorry, a bit of screening along the, the proposed building. The existing building will contain a community room adjacent to the plaza between the buildings. My mouse. Oh yeah. So this area is anticipated to be the main gathering space or event space for the residents of the community. There is a fence shown to screen the necessary utilities in that area. And likewise the trash area would be enclosed with a solid fencing to screen that I keep changing to my planting. We're so excited. The three bioretention areas that Dana mentioned will be seeded with a mix of native inundation, tolerant perennials, Forbes and grasses. So they'll really just look like taller lawns or plant beds within the lawn versus like a really structured utility. They'll also be really shallow, so they'll be pretty unobtrusive. The remaining open space will be left as lawn for flexibility for pasture recreation and unstructured play. As Dana noted, Davis Square is currently working through comments from the historic district commission, which may allow us to have additional open space around the proposed building. And as we work through this process, we're actually really looking forward to hearing more from the neighborhood about this area in the northeast of the site near the river. We heard at some of our earlier community meetings that there was some interest in enhancing the area where there's an existing flagpole and lawn. And in our conversations with the conservation agent, it sounded like they'd be open to us doing some impervious impervious, sorry, invasive plant species removal in that area, maybe adding some benches. We wouldn't do anything like a lot of pavement or I think early on we talked about doing connections to the river and that's really just not feasible, but maybe some sort of overlook or seeding area and some native plantings. There'd be a new connection to the existing sidewalk along Auburn Street so that you can see this little path here. So we'd really just be enhancing a feature that's already been there and been maintained. Now my exciting colorful plantings. The suggested plant palette is really a mix of native trees, shrubs, and grasses that really will compliment the existing vegetation that's out there. Provide some additional habitat. You can see some of the trees. Trees and ground covers and think perennials here. And then we did include a tree removal plan. Again, the olive green circles and the star like shapes are existing to remain the green circles are existing trees to be removed. They're and shrubs, actually large shrubs. So there are seven trees and two shrub massing that we're proposing to remove. And that's really only to allow that emergency access to make that u around the building. You can kind of see them here. So where the existing drop off ends to make that narrow connection to the back allowing safe fire truck passage is really why those are coming out. We'll then we're proposing on, if you remember my very colorful slide, five new trees along Auburn Street. Seven additional deciduous trees and 20 evergreen trees are proposed on the site. This, I apologize, is not the most vibrant thing I'll show you tonight. This is a photometrics plan for, we've been carefully studying the lighting so that we can eliminate any possibility of glare at the property lines while maintaining site safe light levels for pedestrians on the site. We'll do this by using pedestrian scale pole lights, building mounted lamps, recess lights in the building canopy and bollard height light fixtures. On this photometrics plan, the design maintains an average of 0.49 foot candles, which the foot candle is literally if you held a candle a foot away from your face. So half a foot candle is somewhere between twilight and dark twilight. This was a little bit more graphic representation of that. You can see the red circle or red lines are where the fixtures would be located and then the radiating lines are as the light dissipates from those poles. <v Speaker 7>And I'm sorry, how, how high up are</v> those lights on those poles? I <v Speaker 20>Think the poles are 16 maximum.</v> I'll have to double check that. And then the ballards would be like 42 inches. And the walls, the wall heights actually I can zoom in, are mounted at, I don't wanna mess with the zoom 12 foot on the building. So all the fixtures proposed are, were selected because they're dark sky compliant, which means they don't allow any light spill up. They'd be a warmer color temperature, which is perceived as less bright by the human eye. And again, the combination of light styles is really gonna help us control that spill so that everything stays on the property. And the historic lantern at the, if you've noticed, the main entrance of the existing building has a huge lantern over the stairs. So we're keeping that and is advised by historic and the lighting designer that will go unlit but will have new lights hidden for, to allow safe levels of lighting at that dropoff circle. And now Cliff, unless you wanna do questions for me, <v Speaker 1>Can you just go back to the,</v> to the planting plan for a moment? I just want to know what right here, what species are these two trees here? <v Speaker 20>Haven't gotten into that level of detail. Oh.</v> But they'd be something in the, in this ace or rubrum? Yeah. Okay. Kind of category. <v Speaker 1>I'm not so much concerned about What it is,</v> is the style. They would <v Speaker 20>Be shade trees for that street.</v> They would definitely be like a shade tree type of, <v Speaker 1>So you could, you'd have good sight lines. Yes. Yeah.</v> <v Speaker 20>Okay. Yeah. So whether we match,</v> I think there's plain trees out there now. So if we match those or go with something else because we don't want a monoculture, we'd be something in that taller shade tree variety. Okay. And the smaller ones inside the site might be something more like the red buds or the A link or something smaller <v Speaker 1>And flower, but no impact on, on visibility there.</v> <v Speaker 20>Right. So that, I'd definitely be working with Scott</v> to make sure our site triangles at the entries. <v Speaker 1>That's the idea. How dare you.</v> <v Speaker 7>Could you go back one more time? The</v> between the orange new building and the river, that's the steep drop off. Yes. So there's no way to put any kinda screening there or <v Speaker 20>Screening.</v> There's actually a lot, there's a lot of existing vegetation there now, so we're really not planning to disturb that. Again, like working with conservation, I think we'll look at how much might be any kind of invasive species. I think we saw some bittersweet out there. I think some wing ous. So there might be some of that where they encourage us to kind of go in and remove things and we wouldn't wanna leave that soil exposed. So you might plant something either you know, native ground cover vegetation or some, we often do saplings in restoration areas, they'll adapt much more quickly. So we'll be looking at that more closely with conservation. But <v Speaker 7>Right now it's sort of blank.</v> <v Speaker 20>Right. So this, we kind of ended at that fence line and,</v> but there is pretty good amount of vegetation on that slope now and we won't be disturbing it. So where Dana's pipe goes out, he mentioned making that connection. We'd obviously replant that to keep it from eroding. <v Speaker 1>Anybody else on the board have questions? Go ahead.</v> <v Speaker 6>And then you have those evergreens that would be to,</v> you know, plan south, but essentially to the west versus the neighbors. Yeah, right. There are those evergreens. <v Speaker 20>Yes, those are evergreens. Okay.</v> And these are the trash. Yep. <v Speaker 6>Yep. Okay. Thank you.</v> <v Speaker 1>Anybody else here have anything? Comments, thoughts?</v> You guys, anybody else wish to be heard on the landscape plan? Am in the back? <v Speaker 14>Stephanie Smith. I live at 15 Water Street.</v> Is anybody else horrified of the fact that this new building is going to obscure any river access for the rest of the population? I mean <v Speaker 1>This is landscape, right?</v> <v Speaker 14>It's landscape, but all that view is now gone.</v> And the area that these people will get to recreate on is the little patch of land on Route 16. And so my question for the landscape architect is what are you going to do to make that desirable? It's on a major thoroughfare, that's where people are gonna have their little barbecues and their lawn chairs. How does that kind of jive with a, a lovely recreational spot when there's river back there, which is way more desirable? <v Speaker 1>What, what's, what's the</v> <v Speaker 14>Question again?</v> So the question is, you've given these, this small recreational space and you've just dotted some trees in there. How, what are you doing to make that desirable? So those people wanna recreate in that area as opposed to let's say Ed sugar's lawn, which is on the river. <v Speaker 1>Come on. Okay, well we're, we're not gonna address that.</v> You, you, you can't go on Ed Shagos lawn 'cause it's private property. Right. <v Speaker 14>But</v> <v Speaker 1>It's, we're not worried about that so much,</v> <v Speaker 14>But there is no access to the really access to the river,</v> which is the most beautiful part of that property. So you have actually, the only people have access to the river on that property are people who are living in that particular building, <v Speaker 1>Which is currently abandoned.</v> <v Speaker 14>Hmm.</v> <v Speaker 1>Which is currently abandoned,</v> <v Speaker 14>Right?</v> No, no, no. But I'm just saying that right now you have access to the river, you have views of the river. There are no views left of the river now for the people who are living on that property. <v Speaker 1>Okay. I'm confused too,</v> but I just, alright, I'll stop there. Yeah, let's, okay. Does anybody else wish to be heard? Yes sir. <v Speaker 4>Thanks.</v> <v Speaker 12>Hi, my name's Ed Chi Gory. I live at eight Auburn Street.</v> I'm a town meeting member from Precinct 10. And yes sir, I've already signed in. I have a few questions for you. There's trees on our side of Auburn Street. What's the proposal for those trees? <v Speaker 1>If they're on, if they're on your side of the street,</v> they're not gonna touch 'em, correct? I don't, we don't even have to ask them. They can't touch anything off site. <v Speaker 12>Okay.</v> <v Speaker 1>Period. But</v> <v Speaker 12>If the, I'm, I'm not being a wise guy, believe me, but</v> <v Speaker 1>Are you sure?</v> <v Speaker 12>How well do you know you've been following me.</v> <v Speaker 1>I I I've met you a couple times. Keep going.</v> <v Speaker 12>If we're gonna widen Auburn Street,</v> <v Speaker 1>I don't think we heard that. No.</v> <v Speaker 12>Okay. Okay. I'll hold you to it.</v> <v Speaker 1>No, no, no. That's not being proposed right now.</v> <v Speaker 12>Okay. Next.</v> <v Speaker 1>Thank you.</v> <v Speaker 12>The land at the end of Auburn Street where that</v> flagpole is, we have implored the town and they have adopted the plan to plow all the snow from Auburn Street to that particular area. Otherwise there's no place to put the snow query. What's gonna happen to that area that the town is presently using to park snow if there's benches and other things put in that area with a flag pole. <v Speaker 1>Oh, that I heard benches, but I may have missed that I</v> <v Speaker 12>Heard benches, sir.</v> That's why I'm asking the question better <v Speaker 1>Ears than I do. Okay. What</v> <v Speaker 20>We would consider,</v> <v Speaker 1>Let the record reflect there is a wise guy,</v> <v Speaker 20>If I may address the question.</v> We've heard some comments, feedback generally at previous meetings about wanting to do something in that area. We have not explored any concrete proposal for that. I think as we work through these hearings and the conservation commission will discuss what that should be. This is the first time hearing of the snowplowing. So if the DPW is doing that, like that's something that we can raise with 'em and address with 'em. <v Speaker 1>I think that that'd be a key.</v> <v Speaker 20>Yeah. And 'cause that if that's happening,</v> we would certainly, my cute little tree symbol will move to a different location. Sure, <v Speaker 1>Sure. Thank you. I</v> <v Speaker 12>Don't know how to ask the question except,</v> except in a straightforward manner right now we have arguing with people 'cause I back down the driveway sometimes without looking and people are turning around in our driveway query. What are we gonna do to restrict that? <v Speaker 1>Well, let me help you. Thank</v> <v Speaker 12>You.</v> <v Speaker 1>Look, when you back up,</v> <v Speaker 12>You're no fun.</v> <v Speaker 1>You said straightforward, you have to look.</v> But if people are pulling into your driveway that, that they shouldn't be, you know, that, that's trespass. So I i I don't an anticipate that folks from this site will go out the driveway, take a right and pull into your driveway as opposed to just taking a left and leaving. <v Speaker 12>If they park on Auburn Street on the project side</v> of the street and then want to turn around to leave, that hypothesis may go out the window. Yeah. <v Speaker 1>I, here here's my, my experience.</v> People will drive around and around a parking lot endlessly to get one space as close to the entrance as they can. My strong sense is that if they anticipate 30 cars on site and there's 45 spaces, there's a 15 space surplus. And if there's a space on site, I wouldn't anticipate that people are gonna park out on Arden Street in front of your driveway. I'm not saying it's never gonna happen. I'm not saying it's never gonna happen, but that does not seem to be, that does not seem to be a substantial concern. <v Speaker 12>I don't wanna be an antagonist.</v> <v Speaker 1>Are you sure?</v> <v Speaker 12>Positive.</v> <v Speaker 20>But,</v> <v Speaker 12>And, and he never supposed to say you're wrong.</v> So I'll say you're incorrect. Okay. Thank you. <v Speaker 1>Thank you. Who else has not</v> been heard that wants to be heard? I say in the back? Yep. Yes, sir. <v Speaker 20>Oh, he just said</v> <v Speaker 10>Evening.</v> Just a a trivial curious curiosity kind of point where you go. Your name? Yeah, I'm sorry. My name is Rob Dunlevy. I live at eight Front Street across off of Leach Lane. The, the flagpole. I think when you were talking about the flagpole, you were talking about the one at the end of Auburn Street. What the, the bed that's in front of, in the turnaround is that flagpole going to remain? Is that part of the historic sort of quality of that building? I'm just curious. <v Speaker 20>We are currently showing the flagpole still there. Yeah.</v> Whether it has to be temporarily removed for the construction and put back of course or not course, but it's in almost the exact same location where it is today. <v Speaker 10>Okay, good. I just</v> <v Speaker 20>Wasn't sure.</v> I gave it a little shadow and everything. It's on there. <v Speaker 10>I'm sitting way in the back.</v> <v Speaker 20>Right.</v> So I have that flag bowl and I have the flagpole that's off on the <v Speaker 10>Nice, nice. Thank you.</v> <v Speaker 1>Thank you. I</v> <v Speaker 20>Can't mouse</v> <v Speaker 1>Anymore.</v> Yes ma'am. There, <v Speaker 20>It's</v> <v Speaker 16>Susan Chi eight Auburn Street.</v> And my husband forgot to mention that we cannot easily get out of our driveway now without going into that area where the flagpole is because you have to do like a K turn. You know, you back out and you have to, so if you start decorating that or putting benches in there, it's a problem. Whose land is that anyway? Is that town or is that <v Speaker 1>That's part of the site.</v> <v Speaker 16>I I think it's better if it's part of the town</v> because it's so near the river and everything. <v Speaker 1>Well, it's part of the site.</v> <v Speaker 16>Okay. But you have approval of that. Right? So,</v> <v Speaker 1>So I I don't have any,</v> <v Speaker 16>I have some approval or disapproval of, of</v> that happening near the zoning board. <v Speaker 20>Right.</v> <v Speaker 1>I'm sorry. No disapproval of what?</v> <v Speaker 16>Of whether it's town property,</v> because right now the town is, <v Speaker 1>It's, it's unquestionably part of this site.</v> So if it be part of this project, we can't get outta <v Speaker 16>Our</v> <v Speaker 1>Driveway.</v> If if you, if you're using that to turn around, <v Speaker 16>We are, you're</v> <v Speaker 1>Using someone else's land to do that</v> <v Speaker 16>Town land.</v> <v Speaker 1>Well they're there. Their land.</v> Do you own the land or is it No, not yet. It's, it <v Speaker 2>Hasn't been transferred yet. Yes, but I mean</v> <v Speaker 1>There's townland soon to be private land.</v> And is it a public way or just town land? Just <v Speaker 2>Town land.</v> Do we have a site plan that we could put up? But I, you know, I wanna, I wanna assure the shagos that we're not gonna put anything there that's gonna negatively impact their access to their house. So this is all, well, in the development agreement that was signed with the select board, they requested that a path, a public path be put like a sidewalk down to the river and they said quote, endeavor to put a lookout. That's all gonna be discussed with the conservation administrator and there's no intent to, you know, mess up the town's snow removal operations or the sugary access. But there's the site plan up with the, with the borders shown. <v Speaker 20>So you see this little gravel driveway.</v> Is this your, this is a RI <v Speaker 2>Property.</v> So what they're saying is when they pull out, they do turn into basically what's private property. <v Speaker 1>Yeah,</v> <v Speaker 2>But we can look at that. Not too</v> <v Speaker 20>Far.</v> Look how steep that is. Don't back up <v Speaker 16>Too far.</v> But what you're gonna do if you put a a, a park or benches in there, well <v Speaker 20>Anything, it would be proposed</v> in the already disturbed area. <v Speaker 1>Just, just a second. What she just said,</v> and you may not have heard is that whatever is being proposed there is not gonna negatively impact your ability to turn around. <v Speaker 16>Okay. But I would like to say</v> that if you put something at the end, benches trees lookout, you're inevitably gonna have people turning around in our driveway like crazy because how do they get out of the Auburn Street? If I'm not talking about anyone who, who rents here? I'm talking about general public. <v Speaker 1>Alright, so, so let, let's, let's put a pin in that.</v> <v Speaker 2>Absolutely.</v> <v Speaker 1>Anything that would encourage people</v> to utilize your driveway is something that will be considered. Thank you. Thank you. Who else would like to be heard? Yes. <v Speaker 13>Roger Scott. 40 Water Street.</v> Just a clarification, when all of this started way back when Catherine Coughlin, who is now the chair of the select board, said that the street would be widened her and Mr. Evans both select board members were talking about in the beginning, the street is going to have to be widened. Now you said tonight we, we are making this based on this current street as it's set up. Is that firmly printed that this is going to be just the current street and no widening of the street. We require it as per the words of the select board. When all of this was being done ahead of time before they chose this particular group to do it, they were saying that they had to widen the street. I wanna find out agree, true or not. <v Speaker 1>Well we, someone's gonna have</v> to compare it to the development agreement. But the current proposal is not to widen the street. <v Speaker 2>That's correct. If, if the town makes a different</v> decision, that's a town decision. We don't believe it needs to be widened. We haven't heard from the town's engineering based on our reports that we don't think it needs to be widened. We haven't heard back from engineering that it does need to be widened. That would be news to us. <v Speaker 13>The whole picture's different.</v> And based on what you just said, <v Speaker 1>This is landscape right now,</v> but you missed your chance during the transportation section, there's gonna be a review by engineering and they may give us some impact, give us some input on that. It's something that we'll, we're gonna consider for sure, but as it stands, it's not proposed to be widened. That may change. Anybody else wish to be heard? Okay. Seeing none. <v Speaker 2>Yeah. I'd like to bring up Cliff Bower just</v> to give a brief presentation on the design feedback that he has heard as the lead architect from the historic commission going to the planning board also for some advice on design, but then would really like to know from this board whether you'll be relying on planning and historic or you've got your own design. <v Speaker 1>No, we will be, we will.</v> We, we, we are going to, we're we're gonna lean heavily on those folks and Andy. <v Speaker 2>Okay. Okay. So that's what we'll be showing on the 13th.</v> The revisions. Yeah. <v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah. That's great. I mean, I think</v> you'll show us something if we can give you some instant feedback that will be maybe beneficial. I think Andy's an architect, so he may have something to add. People from the board may have something to add, but I, I, I anticipate leaning heavily on historic for their input and planning to the extent that they weigh in on design. <v Speaker 2>Excellent. So Cliff's just gonna go over what he's heard</v> and what we're planning on showing you on the 13th. Good enough. <v Speaker 21>Hello, my name's Cliff Bomer.</v> I'm a principal at Davis Square Architects. I'm working with Anna Acot, whom you met at the opening hearing a little while ago. I've signed the register so I'm ready to go here. I, so we did appear in front of the Historic District commission on November 21st. There were seven commissioners that attended that meeting. I did want to point out that we got a lot of feedback from them. I'm going to give you a brief overview of that feedback. But I do want to point out that they're not the first group that we've gotten feedback from. We've also gotten feedback from Mass Historic Commission from National Park Service Design reviewers and numerous boards within the, the town of Natick as well. So we're collecting a lot of good information that we intend to use to inform the progress of the design. I'll note that at the commission meeting we did discuss actually their own guidelines and we did look at the guidelines and I pointed out where I thought we were at variance with our guidelines. Frankly, there were not many. So if, if you have access to those guidelines, it might help you understand the criteria that they bring to their review. And I can give you a little bit more information about it. But we really were not hugely at variance from a strict interpretation of their guidelines. I'll leave it at that for now. There was, I think the most important thing to point out is there was a variety of feedback from everybody. Everybody commented freely. There was one point that everyone on the commission agreed to and that was that they strongly supported the preservation of the building. And in this case, the preservation plan involves an adaptive reuse that preserves both the auditorium building as well as the school building. As you're aware from the plans, which are the same plans that they reviewed at the end of the day in the historic buildings, we're proposing nine apartments. The community building that is are the auditorium building we're proposing for community use. There were with some backup services for the building. In any case, that was universal. Everyone really loved the idea. They know that our plans are in accordance with National Park Service standards for historic renovation, which is a critical part of our funding package. It is working with Park Service to get historic tax credits for the project. So that was number one. Complete unanimity on that. Probably there are two that were tied for sort of the second most mentioned issue. One was that the building design feels big for the site relative to existing context. And I think you're well aware of what the existing context is. There are very few homes, they're all single family homes on the other side of Auburn Street. Another comment was more, this is a tied, I think as far as the number of people who signed onto this comment, the new building doesn't really sufficiently tie into the architecture of the school and the auditorium and the, the immediate neighborhood, which is again the, the homes on primarily the homes on Auburn Street. So I would call that a kind of language. Some discussion about the language of the building. There was in included in that comment was, or that type of comment was some concern about a flat roofed building when all the other buildings have sloped roof. So that was a common comment and the, the last, the least number of common votes went to questions about views of the proposed new building from the public realm. And that's something that we're working on. Actually, <v Speaker 1>Can you just elucidate that for me?</v> <v Speaker 21>Sure. From the streets where people can freely</v> roam without trespassing <v Speaker 1>That you cannot see this building?</v> <v Speaker 21>Well no, it's the views. What are the views?</v> Oh, from the various locations where you might be able to view it. There were questions about that. Our, I won't go into design now. I know the design's primarily for another session, but it, that was triggered I think by our, a discussion about our logic of where the building should go. I think it's kind of obvious from what you've seen already, that a huge part of the design driver was to keep that lawn on Elliot Street free, open Preserve that really strong view of the existing historic buildings and using them to provide some screening for the, for the new construction in the back. And so was, but there are other places to see it from <v Speaker 1>That that, so, okay.</v> Just so I understand, are they saying that you can still see it from other locations or, <v Speaker 21>Well, as you can see from our rendering,</v> that lower rendering, you can see a tiny bit of it. It, there you go. That's it. Yeah. And so, <v Speaker 1>And that's Am I, am I reading you correctly that</v> that's a negative? <v Speaker 21>I I'm not sure about that actually.</v> I think the question was a little more generic, which is like, is that really it? And exactly what are we looking at? So I, I heard it more as give us more information about what is visible from the public realm. So. Gotcha. I wouldn't attach a a, a huge value judgment to it at this point. Yeah, that's <v Speaker 1>What I was querying.</v> Yeah, yeah. Good enough. <v Speaker 21>But we, you know, we are concerned about that.</v> We, we are concerned what the building looks like from the public realm and we're studying that actually. We just did. And now is a great time to do it because the leaves are down. So we've got a lot of photographs now and we intend in a another presentation to show you exactly that, what the views are from, from the public realm in a more detailed fashion. <v Speaker 1>Did I stop you? Are you gonna</v> <v Speaker 21>No, no, no, no.</v> I was, those were the top four. Okay. So those were the top four. <v Speaker 1>So those are, those are the top four. Yeah.</v> And this is what you showed them. Do you, do you have any sense of, of of what you might do in, in response? <v Speaker 21>I do. I don't want to give too many</v> spoilers, but Yeah. Okay, <v Speaker 1>Then let's, let's hold, let's, let's hold that, let's hold</v> <v Speaker 21>That. Yeah, no, no, it's,</v> <v Speaker 1>I'm gonna go ahead.</v> You hold that, but there anything that anybody else might want lend I'm, I'm not thinking anybody particular. <v Speaker 6>I thought you might. Sure.</v> So were there any comments? So there comments about the sort of, I'm gonna use the word style just to use a word, you know, the style of the neighborhood. Were there any comments about the, the, the massing of the, I'll call the, the new building? <v Speaker 21>Yes.</v> <v Speaker 6>I understand what I mean by massing.</v> Meaning I do understand is it one large chunk or is it broken up into different pieces or, you know, yes, <v Speaker 21>I think that, so scale that, that was the scale</v> kind of question. Like Yep. Perhaps there was not accommodation or recognition of the scale across the street as reflected in the, in the plan that you've all seen. <v Speaker 6>Okay. So that's something you guys are thinking about?</v> <v Speaker 21>Absolutely. Great. Yeah. Good. Yeah, no, I, it was great.</v> Really a great intense discussion and it's, it really has helped us work on, along with the other comments we've gotten, it's really helped us find a direction to move in. <v Speaker 6>Let me know if this is, again, getting in towards the,</v> the January 13th. It may come from a more programming standpoint, but are there, is there any latitude to make use of the other arm of the, of the existing building, not as community space, but as more units? Has that been looked at? <v Speaker 21>Yes and sadly not the, it's in order to</v> really qualify to have a project that can access a pretty critical funding source. What they, what the park service is really interested in is maintaining the auditorium space. Okay. And we, while we are providing programming, they're concerned enough about it that they want literally want to know how we're attaching temporary partitions to the floor. So we're not really damaging the historic fabric. <v Speaker 6>And just for the folks gathered, it's not a suggestion</v> to add units overall to the project was more of a potentially relocate units. <v Speaker 21>Yeah. Wells to my question, in a different project</v> that might have a different kind of funding stack, you could look at that and certainly there are plenty of adaptive reuses that do occupy buildings. There could be a way to occupy that building, but we would lose access to our funding. <v Speaker 6>And in the same, it's my last question,</v> but in that same vein, is that where, you know, strict roof lines or conditions of a shed, meaning no dormers and things like that in the existing building, did, was that under the same sort of strict guidelines? Yes, <v Speaker 21>Absolutely.</v> And, and you know, our goal is, and, and this is we, we achieve, we did receive approval from the, the National Park Service. And I just wanna be clear about that. That's not final approval. It means that we've demonstrated to them that we have a viable project if we pursue this kind of preservation strategy. In combination with that, they also saw the, the new building as well, the proposed new building. 'cause they do like to understand the context as well as the preservation plan for, for the old buildings. So that's why I say we got feedback from them. We did, we got a little bit of feedback generally actually they're generally advocates of one of the, actually one of the historic commissions guidelines, which is to contrast if you're doing an addition, for example, on a new building, they want to see that it's clearly not part of the original historic building. It's don't make fake historic buildings is kind of a fundamental principle these days. It hasn't always been that way. These things change. I mean it's, <v Speaker 6>Thank you.</v> <v Speaker 1>Anybody else on the board have any</v> feedback, questions, thoughts, concerns? This is what I anticipate. Yeah. That people are gonna like the, the existing building and they're not gonna love the back building. I don't think that's meant to be a criticism of the design, but it looks like a very large triple decker that you might see in Chelsea or East Boston. Something again, that's not pejorative, it's just what I see. Yep. And so with that, and I don't think we're gonna spend a lot of time on this. Does anybody else on the board have any thoughts about that before we let people give their feedback? Okay, we're gonna spend a little bit of time on this. We're gonna have you come over here if we can. Yep. Just let people have a shot at the mic. Does anybody wish to be heard on that? I, <v Speaker 21>I did want a quick, if I can quickly please, please, yeah.</v> Say one thing that actually the triple decker analogy did come up. It was Dorchester though. Ah, <v Speaker 1>Fair enough.</v> Fair enough. Does anybody wish to be heard on, on this element of the presentation? Okay, seeing none? Yes. Yep. Come on now <v Speaker 4>Did you get that</v> <v Speaker 1>Dorchester,</v> <v Speaker 16>Susan Shago eight Auburn Street.</v> This is the view from our house and it yeah, really kind of disappoints me. The White House, whatever we're gonna call it. The, the triplex. Are you gonna put utilities up on the top of the building? <v Speaker 21>That is a really good question and yes is the answer.</v> However, we intend to screen the view of the utilities from the, from the street level. And in fact this, that rendering is, is actually built on a model that we, that we did of the building and actually does have some mechanical equipment on the back of it already. But through a combination of both parapet height, the placement of the building, and if required screening on the roof. We do not intend to have any visible rooftop mechanical equipment. <v Speaker 16>But it will raise the roof, basically</v> <v Speaker 21>The view Well the equipment sits on top</v> of the roof. Yes. Would <v Speaker 16>There be any chance we could get it?</v> I'm sorry, I'm supposed to address you. <v Speaker 21>Sorry. Me too.</v> <v Speaker 16>Is there any chance we can get</v> that off the roof so it doesn't look quite, that looks like a very commercial building in this neighborhood. I don't know of another flat building except for the nursing home in the whole neighborhood. No, <v Speaker 1>But did you know because of the, the roof line,</v> the parapet and the location of the, of the mechanicals with the screening, it won't be visible from your house. <v Speaker 16>Yeah, well except</v> <v Speaker 1>Maybe from the second floor.</v> <v Speaker 16>Well</v> <v Speaker 21>We, that's possible.</v> We haven't looked at that, that the <v Speaker 16>Third floor too, but, but that's not really the point.</v> It's just kind of commercial looking and not apartment friendly. I mean it, I don't see the blending of the two buildings at all. <v Speaker 1>So I dunno, let, let's just explore that very briefly</v> 'cause I think we heard something about that. Yeah. You, you're, you're not looking necessarily for a connection between this building and that building, but perhaps between this building and these buildings that's, is that what <v Speaker 21>Historic?</v> Well one thing that we are working on is modifying the massing at the, at a section of the building closest to Auburn Street. That will be much more in scale. So that is something we are in the process of, of developing right now. But you, that was a really good question about the rooftop equipment because, and whether it's necessary. And I think, you know, from having looked at the site plan, we've given a lot of space that is not going to be developed, you know, that entire space out going out to Elliot Street. And on the other side we have really important environmental constraints that we certainly don't want to violate. So as far as available area for any ground mounting mechanical equipment, it's really extremely limited. So the, there are very strong advantages of having heat pumps that are located on the roof. And we can use low profile heat pumps that are on the roof of the building. They're very efficient as far as serving the building 'cause they're essentially right above the units that they're going to be serving. In addition, we are planning the new building will seek passive house approval and it'll be in conformance with the new specialized stretch code. That's, that is in effect in Natick. Not quite yet. I think in, in July. Maybe it starts in Natick. In Natick. But in any case you <v Speaker 6>Wanna just define that a bit.</v> <v Speaker 21>Okay. Yeah. Well the, there are three</v> building codes actually in Massachusetts. There's a base code, I, I'm speaking primarily with respect to, to efficiency, you know, energy efficiency and sustainability. There are three levels of codes. All communities in Massachusetts were had to subscribe or follow the base code. A number of years ago, Massachusetts introduced what's called a stretch stretch code that had higher requirements as far as energy conservation. And very recently, two years ago maximum, the, the, there was a yet another higher level of opt-in code. The stretch code actually is not a requirement a com for every community, a community has to opt into it. And now there's a new specialized stretch code, which is even a much higher level of, of sustainability within buildings, primarily related to energy conservation. And Natick is, there aren't, I forget how many have adopted the specialized at this point, but Natick is a pretty early adopter of it and we will obviously pursue it. One of the compliance pathways for, for the specialized stretch code is designing your building to passive house standards. We're actually going to pursue passive house certification. So the, where I was going with that is flat roof is very good for a PV array, for a photo photo array on the roof that will really help our sustainability profile. They're, they're not, they, they won't be visible. That's actually within the historic district in the South Natick district. There is ver a lot of concern about solar panels being visible on roofs. We are not proposing solar panels on the historic buildings, but we do intend to utilize the flat roof real estate for our heat pumps, for energy recovery ventilators and for solar panels. <v Speaker 1>Thank you. Okay. Does anybody else wish to be heard?</v> <v Speaker 16>I have just one more question. Okay.</v> Do, how much of the funding is funding for the White House different from funding? 'cause that's an NPS type. <v Speaker 21>I'll let you speak to that.</v> It, I I could but I think you should <v Speaker 1>Go ahead very briefly</v> 'cause it's not on the table tonight. <v Speaker 3>Sure. So as part of the overall financing package</v> for the project, we are incorporating both state and federal historic tax credits and those will contribute to the preservation of the Elliot school building. But they're an important part of making it the overall financing package feasible for the project. <v Speaker 16>Well is it 10%? Is it 40%? I mean</v> <v Speaker 3>I believe it's about three or $4 million.</v> My, out of about my budget. People in the back know the answers to this. Right. I <v Speaker 1>Don't tonight.</v> I don't think that's critical, but thank <v Speaker 3>You. Sorry. Thank</v> <v Speaker 16>You. Yep.</v> <v Speaker 1>It's okay. You have one more? Okay. Last one.</v> The last you'll have the last word. <v Speaker 21>I thought I got the last word</v> <v Speaker 1>Somehow.</v> I don't think it's unusual. <v Speaker 21>Uhoh.</v> <v Speaker 12>Edward Shari eight Auburn</v> Street. I'm married to Susan. <v Speaker 1>Nice to see you. We</v> <v Speaker 21>Figured that out.</v> <v Speaker 12>I have two questions.</v> <v Speaker 1>Alright.</v> <v Speaker 12>What's gonna be the material</v> on the front of that building? The exterior part of the building. <v Speaker 21>Okay, well I I</v> <v Speaker 12>Should know the answer, I'm sorry. I don't</v> <v Speaker 21>No, no.</v> Well, I I don't know if you should know it or not, but interestingly enough, that was one of the, of the commission's guidelines that I was sure to tell them that I felt we would depart from. They, they generally do not like, I forget what they call them, artificial siding materials. These aren't really artificial. What we're looking at is using cementitious clapboards. So it will have the appearance of, there's a slight difference in the very slight difference in the profile of a cementitious clapboard. But what you're seeing in that rendering is cementitious clapboards as in that case there's a kind of board and baton that's done with cementitious panels as well <v Speaker 12>That's said.</v> Sir, has any thought been given to booking the bricking, the front of that building? <v Speaker 21>There has been.</v> And the, our reasoning for not pursuing that is twofold. One is actually I think in alignment with the historic district commission desire to have contrast between the, the new and the old. Actually it's threefold. So that's one is that we're, we're working with contrast that sympathetic, but, but not copying. Second is the homes across the street because we are working. And you'll see I think more in the next presentation. We're working with a tie in what I think is a more successful tie in with a homes across the street, both through scale and through use of very similar building materials. And lastly, brick is very expensive and it's, and I don't think it is necessarily leading to the right design solution. So I guess that's a package. <v Speaker 12>Has any thought been given? This is three by the way.</v> I'm sorry. Well, it's inflation. This is it. Okay. This is it. I better make it good. Has any thought been given to putting green on the top of that building? 'cause it's a flat surface. <v Speaker 21>Oh, a planted roof? Yeah, Possibly.</v> The, the, I think the, there are a number of reasons why you would do a planted roof. I would say the one that, that some of them were kind of obvious. One is they can help cut down on heat gain on the roof. Another is if you made an occupiable roof, it might be really nice to have a planted area. The third reason is a more of a storm water management kind of rationale where you might almost use it as a way to collect water and then put it into a system. Generally that would be a public system put into the system at a slower rate. And we don't need to do that. We have a storm water management system on, on site that's designed to handle all of our rooftop water. So we, we don't really need it. And we also also believe that from an environmental perspective, it's really, we get the maximum benefit from having solar panels. And it, it could be that we have, you know, we're not at that point in our design process yet, but it could be that we need an offset, that we would need the offset that the electricity that the panels would provide in order to really make it all the way through the passive house project. So we're reserving that real estate there. <v Speaker 1>Okay. Thanks very much. If I could just one</v> Oh, go ahead please. <v Speaker 6>Just as it as it relates to the, the whole story</v> of this, of this complex. Yeah. I don't want to, you know, if you, if you take a minute and look, look up passive house, it is sort of the cutting edge of sustainable design. It's, it's beyond code. I think it's a wonderful part of this and it's, it's gonna cost a little more money for the developers I'm sure. But as it relates to the overall goal, goal of climate change and fighting it, this is what's happening on the better housing developments around this state and parts of the country. So it's, it's, it's definitely part of the, the story and let's, let's just remember it we go through. So <v Speaker 21>Appreciate that.</v> <v Speaker 1>Okay. Yeah. Thank</v> <v Speaker 2>You very much.</v> Thank you. We look forward to seeing you on the 13th. <v Speaker 1>Ready for your input. Very, very valuable. Wait.</v> Motion to continue? Wait a minute. Yeah. Okay. I move to <v Speaker 22>Continue the hearing until our next</v> scheduled on January 13th. <v Speaker 1>Second. Alright, all those in favor? Boom. Okay.</v> Now do we have other business that we need to do for you? So I mean, on January 13. Oh yeah. Motion to aurn. Motion to ajo to adjourn. This is all those a favor.