##VIDEO ID:vz2uwUCEM8E## but why don't we call the meeting to order H good evening my name is Bob Connors it is 6:02 pm and I'd like to call the December 17th meeting of the Newbury Conservation Commission to order Mason can you read the remote open meeting La Preamble and take a roll call of the members present as a preliminary matter this is Mason Barrett conservation agent the new Conservation Commission and I call the December 17th meeting to order and permit me to confirm that all members are present and can hear me Members when I call your name please respond in the affirmative Mary Rimer TJ KY Mick Brown yes here Dian O'Brien yeah Woody Knight yes Bob Connors yes and Frank weton Camp all right good evening this is the open meeting of the Newbery Conservation Commission is being conducted remotely consistent with Governor Baker's executive order of March 12th 2020 due to the current state of emergency in the Commonwealth due to the outbreak of the covid-19 virus in order to mitigate the transmission of the covid-19 virus we have been advised and directed by the Commonwealth to suspend public Gatherings and as such the governor's order suspends the requirement of the open meeting law to have all meetings in a publicly accessible physical location further all members of public bodies are allowed and encouraged to to participate remotely ensuring Public Access does not ensure public participation unless such participation is required by law this meeting will feature public comment but this meeting the new Conservation Commission is convening by Zoom as posted on the agenda of the Conservation Commission Section of the town's website identifying how the public may join please note that this meeting is being recorded and that attendees are participating by video conference we're pro meeting materials will provided to the board of committee members prior to the meeting for review applicants or other Representatives may be called upon to speak and or share information to the screen if able on the Fly we're now turning the first item on the agenda but before we do so permit me to cover some ground rules for Effective and clear conduct of our business and to ensure accurate meeting minutes the chair will introduce each speaker on the agenda after they conclude their remarks the chair will go down the line of members inviting each by name to to provide any comment questions or motions please hold until your name is called further please remember to mute your mic use earbuds and remember to speak clearly and in a way that helps generate accurate minutes if board committee members wish to engage with other members please do so through the chair after the board and committee members have spoken the chair will afford public comment as follows the chair will first seek questions through the chat function when where participants are using this function please list your name address and then your question the chair will seek questions from the public who wish to speak they'll be asked to identify their names address and question once the chair has a list of all public commentators they will call in each by name and afford three minutes for any comments finally each vote taken in this meeting will be conducted by roll call vote okay thank you Mason good evening everyone upcoming meeting dates January 7th 2025 and January 21st 2025 uh first order of business will be meeting Minutes review for the December 3rd 2024 meeting team why don't we take a minute review though see if there's any questions comments or Corrections okay hearing none I will entertain a motion to approve the meeting minutes for December 3rd so moved second okay so that is was that Woody and Diane yes yes okay okay roll call all in favor uh Woody yes Mick hi yes right yes and Bob Conor's votes yes right on one second okay next order of business uh request for a determination 13 plumbush Downs applicant would like to replace existing deck and extend the deck Outback and around the side of the property Mason can you provide an overview in a recommendation on this matter yep uh so this site is right on the marsh it's within 100 feet of the salt marsh um they' have an open building permit right now um redoing a lot of the interior and exterior um I have some photos to share as well um but I would suggest that the commission um Center their questions around the um footings of the deck um to kind of explain the impact that will be shown um is the applicant are the representative uh on the call uh do not believe they are here right now okay well why don't you show us the pictures and we can discuss this but we we won't be taking any final action on this tonight without the applicants here to answer questions uh unless unless we have no question can everyone see this yes so this is the existing deck here um and the proposal yeah Mason you know what you went back to your table of pictures rather than the individual you could click on the picture you're you had that but it then it yeah there you go okay thank you uh so yeah the existing house now already has a deck um and the proposal is to continue the extension of this deck around the corner um into the left side of this house here okay so it is not going to be encroaching onto the marsh correct and the marsh set time is there a site plan uh there is and I believe that that is in the folder can you pull that up for I saw the plan that shows the structure but it wasn't a site plan per se it was more of a uh yeah I'm I'm not seeing the oh here it is there wasn't a site plan in the Dropbox yeah there is just kind of a a rough um sketch of the existing structure second oh there you go okay typically Mason at a minimum we we request a plan and chose you know bordering vegetation with you know with the setbacks and the resource I think at a minimum we're we're going to need that to further this discussion and uh consider what action the the commission's going to take yeah this I'll bring up the gis to give everyone perspective of where this is uh this is the building that was just shown in the photos here um and this is the side of the house that they're looking to extend the deck on okay so that actually is towards the resource correct okay okay so team from from my perspective I I think we're going to need a a site plan with some real detail on this um with with the setbacks and the resource series but why don't I stop there and open this up to questions uh to the members uh Woody what are your thoughts on this one well I agree with you we're going to need to see more so I I'll just deferring questions for a later date okay thank you Woody Nick what are your thoughts same thing we need to see a plan with the with all the setbacks okay Diane any any any comments on this yeah my comments just had to do with the footings there's nothing about what kind of footings they're going to be the fact that it's over lawn I didn't the the pictures I don't think were in the Dropbox so the fact that it's over lawn rather than you know Dune or well I guess we wouldn't have Dune out by the river but um just all about the footings and what we're disturbing by digging in and they're tripling it looks like they're tripling the size of the deck so that was it okay Frank any any questions on this no I agree I think it's all about the footings from what I can see on this plan and how far above the ground it's going to be and yeah Mason go back to the the picture that you had that show the existing deck yeah I mean that that will give us an elevation if if that is what they're matching with which is what it seems to be me's pictures all right so team basically what I'm saying is there's no delineation included with this application uh so the type of resources location relative to the project uh site are not shown clearly its land subject to Coastal storm Flowage flow Flowage geez easy for me to say tonight and appears to least be in the buffer zone to the salt marsh but proximity is unknown deck Dimensions type of pile peers and pilings are not are also not indicated also page three of the RDA form incorrectly checks item C1 instead of item c1c um so the recommendation is we need the above referenced information Mary had sent in a note she's going to be joining the minute of the meeting later so that was those were Mary's comments I was just reading and and I certainly concur with that so so Mason I think what we what we're going to do is we're going to push this off to the first meeting in January if you could reach out to the applicant that more information is required before we can take further action on this um yeah that would be our typical process for an RDA on this okay is there anyone from the public on the call that wanted to offer comments okay so team I think when the when this comes back to us with the information that's requested uh we can entertain a site visit if the commission or a member wants to go out oh okay Janice Janice Forester hi sorry I couldn't I couldn't click the right button it's got to be this kind of a night tonight um isn't this already being worked on now my understanding is there's an existing building permit that is allowing the interior they were they're not expanding outside the footprint of the existing structure okay on the permit they have now is my understanding now that they're looking to expand the deck um they're coming before us for guidance and what the next steps are okay thank you okay is that a is that an accurate description Mason of where this project stands yep that's correct okay any anything else Janice not yet okay all right so Mason why don't we do this why don't we just uh push this off to the January 7th meeting uh when you talk to the applicant I would suspect that they're not going to be able to get a uh a surveyor on board and a and someone to do the delineation prior to that meeting so they may want to push it back to the uh January 21st uh or or to a February meeting y okay so no further action it's not a public hearing doesn't require a vote to continue a public hearing next order of business uh is a determination request for determination on 49 Southern Boulevard applicant wants to install a generator on the property Mason why don't you give us an overview on this and a recommendation uh yeah so this is a one second I'm just pulling something up this is pretty straightforward um they've submitted some plans um with the elevation and the location um and that can be seen in the Dropbox that I will share here um and I had reviewed this and they are elevating this above grade uh it's at least 2 feet above grade and it is not on the property line which can be seen photos and then just below is the sketch location okay can you pull up the gis just to see where where the Wetland boundaries are in this Y what it's showing obviously it's within the resource area it's on the island here we are Mason do you have pictures do you have any pictures of this and the location I do not have pictures of this location hello my name is Jim from D Electric can you hear me all right yeah Jim hang on one second if you would yep okay Mason have you driven by this site yeah I was able to drive by um there's plenty of room in this back area for the insulation of the generator um and I didn't see any major doomes that this would be affecting what's the ground cover now is it is that Rec is this actually just a regular grass lawn or is it or is it Beach Grass you can see here it it's I think it's mostly sand and then some some sparse vegetation okay okay why don't I stop there and uh Jim the electrician why don't you give us your uh your presentation if you would so I have a picture it is grass regular grass in that backyard we're going to be placing it by the air conditioning units on the Southeast side of the house um do you have do do you have any pictures I can possibly show you this one I'm not sure how to work the video let me see if I can get the video working here can you see something now can you see that is that upside down or right yeah looks looks upside down to me not sure okay yeah this is about 100 feet from my house I apologize I could have driven by this thing and okay okay wait there you go yeah okay that look pretty good gone okay but how far off the house Jim are you proposing to put the the elevator platform about four to five feet away okay okay questions uh Woody any questions for Jim on this project no I don't have any questions thanks Bob okay mick how about yourself any questions no questions sir thank you okay Diane any questions now Jim you said it was over lawn it looked like it was like concrete no that's all lawn um this stone that circles the house about about 3 feet out and we're going to be just past that and what are the what's the foundation wood what what's going into the ground it's Stone and and concrete I mean so they're concrete sorry for the generator supporting the Generator 6 by6 pressure treated wood okay so what okay and you're obviously this is is this going to be fueled by uh propane that's on site or is it self-contained with diesel propane what's the what's the pathway to your propane tanks Jim is it straight back to the the house yes on your right hand side of the it's straight back wide open okay so you'll be trenching in the stone pathway is that what you're yes trenching to the house about 4 feet away from the generator straight to the house okay and three of that at three feet of that is already crushed down as you said right correct yes uh Frank any question Diane anything else before I move on to Frank nope okay Frank what are your thoughts I I think it's it looks pretty straightforward to me yeah I I think it's it's it's it's it's met the criteria that we typically look we look for which is uh it's elevated uh it's on a platform that's on wood posts uh the trenching to the fuel source is primarily through Crush Stone and what's left is uh more of a grass lawn and not not uh Beach Grass okay any raised hands from the public at this time okay Mason do you want any further comments do you want to offer nope no comments at this time okay uh do any members have a request for a site visit or additional information no okay hearing none I will entertain a motion to issue a negative finding for 49 Southern Boulevard so moved second second Okay who wants to be second second okay thank you Frank okay roll call vote uh all in favor Woody yes Nick Diane yes Frank yes and Bob Conor votes yes okay thank you Jim thank you all appreciate it okay hi Jim thank you okay so team we as a practice we carry on the agenda open enforcement orders uh at this time as I recall we have let me do that we have four enforcement orders that are open uh all have complied with the enforcement order issued it requires no action on the part of the commission tonight okay moving on extension request we have none certificates of compliance we have none okay our first our next to order of business is a public hearing on D file number 0501 1425 19 Independence Way West uh amended noi submitt applicants representative is submitting an amendment to the previously submitted noi Mason can you provide an overview and a recommendation on this matter I just want to clarify the public hearing is limited to the scope of the proposed amendment all of the other matters uh that have been settled are not before the commission tonight yeah so this is a um revision to the mitigation planting area area um it was already approved by D um the revisions include the increase of the mitigation plantings through changes to one of the driveways um and recessing skirting on the deck to allow vegetation survival under the west facing deck um those changes can be seen in the plans that were uploaded to the folder and um DP has noted that upon the commission approving these changes um they will be withdrawing their superseding order okay I see Tom Hughes Tom just identify yourself and make your presentation uh sure Tom Hughes with Hughes environmental Consulting and um as Mason put it uh after the the commission approved the project the EP did intervene this is one of those where um they wanted to basically see the site and I think those of you who have seen the site can understand why it's not your typical Dune site it certainly has suffered some uh some impacts from the removal of the home the abatement of a uh of a spill that had occurred there and um upon reviewing the plans they asked us to take some measures to increase the vegetation count and um if I can share my screen I'll just walk you through those changes and those are what's uh really this uh appeal is about okay all right let me get to the plan okay so um there are two driveways that are part of the project there's this main driveway here uh with enough room to turn around you may recall we had had a little stripe here so that there was just enough uh for tires to uh to back out on in the main project we had uh as the commission had approved that this was a solid driveway um but in further discussions during the site visit with DP um it became apparent that the the primary purpose for this driveway is going to be using sort of an ATV style snowplow to get in out of the driveway and then occasional use of the of the driveway and garage uh by other vehicles so um what we were able to do is take the middle out of this driveway and that will be planted with Pennsylvania sge uh Pennsylvania sge is a native sge to Plum Island um it also is shorter than American Beach Grass so less likely to uh to kind of touch a heat shield on a vehicle that might be using it so it's more appropriate for using uh within that type of Tire stripe section it will increase our vegetative count and then the other thing we did is the original approved plan had skirting that went along the perimeter of this deck um and we we recessed that in so the uh the skring no longer runs along the uh along the perimeter and that allows us to plant underneath that deck so that will be planted with American beach grass and we should get plenty of light there's plenty of clearance underneath um and I think there's one other notice is that the um D did ask us to change the language for our uh Sur Sur to crush stone or uh shell Drive rather than gravel um they wanted that Crush Stone language in there so we made that change um and uh you know it's very simple in the in the normal course of things that D not intervened and we made these changes this would be a minor Revision in front of you however in order for D to drop the appeal we need to cement this into the decision by having you amend the order and change the plan of record from the previously approved plan by the commission to this plan um which has an 1125 2024 date and uh as Mason indicated D has agreed that upon um adoption of the amendment and issuance of the amended uh order of conditions DP is prepared to withdraw their appeal which would then leave the amended decision standing okay so they basically they're looking for us to reference the revised plan that's been submitted dated 1125 24 right none of the other project elements change our overall limited work doesn't change our overall impact areas because they include temporary impacts they don't change so we don't need to change anything else on that order of conditions other than the plan reference Tom do you have an elevation of the deck where where you're now you said you're recessing the uh yeah let me um skirting that I mean that deck is at what what elevation it's it's call it was substantially above grade yeah it is I mean it's it's at the first floor um okay of the structure and so the the obstruction was that we were coming down um up to about three feet above grade or four feet above grade with skirting so we basically brought that into the main body of the building so that the deck has that recessed there's no skirting on the footprint the outside footprint of the of the deck okay right there had been and um we had provided elevation views during the the original permitting I did not submit an elevation view showing that but we did show the perimeter of the skirting recessed back here now um I'm sorry skirting recess to here so then we plant in this area and uh on Plum Island we've had great success getting vegetation to grow on decks um you know when they're up six seven eight feet off the ground okay thank you Tom I'll open this up to questions from the members Woody do you have any questions for Tom on this um just a clarification question we have the grass under the deck which we just discussed and that's on the west side so that will actually has some survivability and you said in the driveway it's um Sage grass uh sge it's a Pennsylvania sge okay and the survivability of that's yeah that that's a that's a native um plant that grows in the dunes uh in the back Dune environments on Plum Island um it's actually found naturally if you were to go into the reservation area you'd find it you know fairly prevalent and it it is you know it's kind of all over the place um within the backun environments of Plum Island that are not developed okay and the third thing that the third thing oh the third third thing was um the uh the changing of the descriptor to be proposed Crush stone or shell Drive um they just don't want to have fine material you know like uh stone dust or anything in the driveway material so they wanted it you know I I think consistent with that like a p Stone would be consistent with that and would be something we could use but we just couldn't use a uh you know a gravel that had a lot of fines and really packed down okay thank you Tom for your explanation uh seems straightforward to me thank so Tom just I want just uh clarify one point yeah so the ATV uh driveway is the only area where where that the let's call it the void of the proposed Crush Stone of crush shells will be saved grass or will it all will Sage grass also be planted uh in the other areas this area was already to be Pennsylvania sge okay okay it almost from a from a distance it it looks a little bit like lawn grass but it it actually has a triangular shape to it and it's a little bit of a rougher grass it's used quite a bit by landscapers in various settings but it is a great native grass um or or sge and where it will go is in this Center area here and it already is going in here so already proposed on okay okay uh Mick any questions for Tom on this project May Tom could you collapse your screen I think uh I abolutely I can't see Ni I'm sorry I was on mute oh yeah y here I am uh I think the original plan would had a U-shaped driveway all in front of the house correct uh no all right no I mean it it had we had enough area to do something like that we might have but we had to stop so it it almost had that appearance except it stopped and we had that tire stripe so that we had enough room to uh turn around yeah so the only major change is that tire stripe basically you turn it into a cenal card path yeah that that and the planting under the Western deck okay so and what's the fill in between the sge I mean is that going to be uh it just be sand okay all right okay thank you thank you Mary welcome we were just going through Tom had just gone through his presentation uh he just highlighted the the changes uh one was the skirting on the west deck was going to be recessed back uh and there was going to be a planting underneath it and that on the driveway I'm going to call it the east driveway um there that was no longer going to be solid with the proposed materials uh but it was going to have a planting area in the center of it which was going to be Pennsylvania Sage uh and the other thing was the driveway materials are proposed now to be either a crush stone or a crush or Crush seashell and that that's pretty much the Tom and correct me if if that's doesn't identify your proposed scope that you've right no that is it I mean it's Pennsylvania sge um Mary and I know you know we want to make sure we're different with between sage and sge they're two different things so it's a Pennsylvania Edge and the reason Mary is because we want something that's going to grow in there but not up against the heat shield of a car that might be parked there so the sge tends to be a lower height than American beach grass or the other options that we would have I'm sorry I assume we were talking about 19 independent C we're 19 independent that's what I figured okay I apologize that's that all sounds fine it's already sounds like it's already been reviewed by D and Yep they're prepared to withdraw their appeal upon the commission adopting this as an amendment I did look at the plan uh earlier today and don't have any further comments okay thank you Mary Diane any any questions or comments for Tom Hughes on this matter I remember this from before and we approved it previously so you're just looking for the order to change the plan of record to indicate 11224 correct right and that will Encompass everything that you're talking about yeah I no problem thank you thank you Diane Frank any any questions on this one no okay so procedurally Tom uh in talking to Mason earlier with this with this is really an amendment uh we we're going to amend the original notice of intent and we're going to amend uh the order of condition reflecting this changes and then both the notice of intent and needs to be resent into de so the um procedurally and and I also want to procedurally this is a public hearing on the amendment so the subject of the amendment you do have an abutter whose hand is raised so I just want to make sure when we get through when we get through the commission will then so procedurally um this went into de P the same way noi does but on an amendment what I did is I gave you one page of the noi form that changed and that was the plan the page with the plan reference all my other numbers and information on the original noi form CH stayed the same we didn't change any elements of the narrative any elements of the invasive species control all of that kind stuff stuff stays the same the only thing changing is the increase in vegetation um and and the clarification of the um of the of the material for the driveway so the way it works is should the commission vote to approve this tonight Mason would take essentially the same order of conditions that was issued before on the first page uh change there's a box at the top where you would check off amended order of conditions and then on the part of the form that has the plan reference change the plan reference to it and then update the signatures but the issuance date stays the original issu state okay that's the order of conditions on the signature page on the notice of intent uh what do we have to do with that not not you have to put what I submitted to you in your files D okay received that gotcha okay all right thank you all right any other questions from the members before I open this up to the public no no okay Julia I see you have a raised hand if you could just give us your name and your address you're you're on mute Julia if you would like to speak Julia you're still on mute Mason can you unmute Julia uh I yeah I just requested for her to unmute okay but it seems it's not working he need to do it at her end if Mason's already done it Julie if you can hear us on the bottom of your screen on the the bottom row below the pictures on the far left hand side is is a microphone okay I think I've got it now you do welcome Julia Julia so welcome if you could give us your name and address tonight's public hearing is limited only to the amendment proposed on the driveway and on the vegetation so I'm going to ask that your questions be directed only to the amendment yes I understand okay thank you okay this Julia Yoshida 57 Sunset and I have a simple question when uh do you anticipate to begin the landscaping and how long do you think it do you predict that it will take so um I don't have a solid answer for you because I don't know when the construction will begin I know Dr Matos is very anxious to get going on this um and we typically don't begin the landscape work until that the work on the house is largely inside um because you know ladders and staging and deliveries and things like that tend to undo good landscape work um we can uh give you a heads up when that's you know when we have a better sense of when that's going to happen um there are certain elements I would like to Begin work on in the spring if construction is started some of the invasive work etc um the ultimate final planting is likely next fall because I would imagine assuming we start construction um in the winter or or very near future um then the the planting would be kind of in the fall um but for Fairly obvious reasons until the approval is resolved with D um we don't have a construction schedule so it's a tough question to give you a firm answer on when do you anticipate the hard cement to be removed from the sand dun um it would be part of the initial work on site so that'll be spring again I don't have a construction schedule but we certainly will you know give you give you an idea when that's going to happen I would appreciate that thank you that's all okay thank you juliia are there any other members from the public that would like to comment on this um project okay hearing none do any members have a request for a site visit additional information uh adding any additional content to the notice of intent no okay hearing none I will entertain a motion to close the public heing so move second do we have a second Woody you second back okay roll call all in favor Mary yes Woody yes Mick right Diane yes Frank yes and Bob Connor vote Yes okay so I I just want to have some clarification Tom do we need to add any special conditions memorializing the Pennsylvania sge or the uh change to crush stone or SE Crush shells uh I didn't see is is there a footnote on your plan identifying those yes they're all noted on the plan uh just by referring to the plan that incorporates that you also have my Amendment letter request which also goes in your file and any order of conditions that you issue by reference incorporates all the materials that were submitted to you um so you know when you issue an order of conditions it may not be obvious to the P the contractor if they don't have all the things that were submitted to you but you're acting on the record on the public hearing record and on the materials that we provide so it's it's all documented D did not ask for any and I don't see any need for any additional things and I would hate to complicate it by putting something in that deep didn't ask for yeah I my question was more memorializing exactly what you would proposed no I think the I think my Amendment letter combined with the um the plan the new plan of record uh does that okay all right I will entertain a motion to amend the previously approved order of conditions for 19 Independence Way with the amendment proposed referencing the revised plan dated 1125 24 so moved we have a second second okay thank you okay roll call all in favor Mary well if I since I miss some of this hearing if I'm not needed for a quorum I'll obain okay uh Woody yes Mick no Dian yes Frank yes and Bob Connor is V yes okay thank you Tom yeah thank you very much okay next matter is a continue public hearing for D file number 050 1436 286 high road to construct in addition to an existing single family dwelling with Associated utilities expanded driveway within 100 foot buffer to the Salt M area Mason uh did Bill Holt request a continuance on this matter yeah he had requested to continue um they've been in talk with historic New England um and I think they're running into some obstacles with them so he'll be reaching out um soon whether to um withdraw or to give us some more supplemental information so does he want to continue this to the January 7th yep okay okay uh at the owner's request uh I'll entertain a motion to continue this matter to the January 7th 202 meeting so move so second okay so d man and Woody okay roll call all in favor uh Mary yes Woody yes Mick yes Diane yes Frank yes and Bob Connor's vote Yes okay thank you next matter is a continued public hearing for 268 Middle Road Governor's Academy applicant is submitting a notice of attent for an ecological restoration project the applicant proposes to remove a damaged and nonfunctioning culet on a strain that is on the campus property outside and student research has been done to measure the pre-existing impacts of the damag culet they proposed to remove the damaged culet repair the surrounding M and install a wooden foot Bridge across the stream to access the island and other parts of the M uh team has we had a site visit last Thursday Mary Mason and I were present Mason why don't you give us your overview I do see Wendy is on the call uh yeah so on the sidewalk Wendy was able to point out some of the potential staging areas um as well as walk us through um what would be the ideal construction sequence um in addition I've been looking on the portal and D has no technical comments right now um and yeah I think Wendy is GNA be here to um address some of the concerns that the commission originally had and also give us some more information on the bridge Crossing um and the specs related to that okay Wendy good evening if you could just give us your name and title and update the commission um Wendy Reid environmental manager for the Governor's Academy um I don't have any additional information other than I I do have some slides that show the proposed Bridge construction um I know there was some conversation at the sidewalk whether that should be part of the ecological restoration and um we really believe that it is because by completely removing the Culvert we're getting the maximum restoration value um but to do that we need still a way to cross so um we do view the bridge as being an integral part of this restoration project and the bridge that we selected has the least impact um of several um possibilities that we um we looked at so if if you're interested I could uh if I can share my screen I'll I can give you a little bit more detail than I did in the original application about what the bridge would look like or answer any other questions you might have at this time yeah what that I think that would be very helpful Wendy why don't you share your your slide that okay so this is kind of a um it's not a photo it's kind of a stylized um view of what it looks like um this particular Bridge it's it's 20 ft long 4 feet wide um this is shown in water but but we're not proposing that we would have each of these post on um opposite banks of the um Channel um you can't really see it I can show you in further slides but down at the bottom um the 4x4 posts go through it's called a mud plate um and that actually holds it in place it's also adjustable so that when you're installing the bridge it can be leveled fairly easily uh we do want to have hand railings on it because the depth to the bottom of the creek is is more than three feet um so the next Pages just show a little bit of detail as to how the bridge is constructed um these plans are available from the vendor that we would work with um it's all pressure treated construction kind of the supports the the most significant change we would make is that instead of having um wood decking be the strut the The Crossing pieces would use perforated plastic 1x4 sections um and then this is the the photo down at the bottom and these are made to be inserted in panels to just to make it easier to um install the bridge uh this is some of the the fittings that I was talking about this is the mud plate that the 4x4 goes through U this this is how it attaches to the side this is a a driving cap this goes over the top of the 4x4 post so that you can drive it in with a sledgehammer they do suggest that you um cut the end of the 4x4 post it's almost like sharpening a pencil just so that it goes in with the least damage to the the marsh um I do have a clip if you wanted to see the installation process I'm I'm not sure if that's necessary at this point but um I'm happy to show that and the um other option that we had talked about this is the one I think we discussed last time I told you it was 19 to 20,000 I mean these are you know aluminum they're you know really high quality but they do require quite a bit of foundation on either end um so aside from the cost we just felt like this would be more impact and it also just aesthetically we didn't feel like that really belonged in a kind of a pristine salt marsh so um so Wendy I'd be intered seeing the the video on the the install I think that might be okay sure as long as it's not 45 minutes long no it's I think it's one minute and 30 seconds so okay that's was my question now you be Manning that Sledgehammer yourself or do we have some young students that I got say we we there's probably some young students out there that be a couple of lacrosse players make that only if Wendy does it are you proposing that as a special condition Diane yes there we require it so Wendy on on your on your plan do have you located the actual proposed Post locations on on the site plan yes oh not on the site plan no no we um we looked at them in the field it's going to be um let me stop sharing here um going to be a little bit challenging because uh we won't know the extent of the bridge until uh the Mosquito Abatement folks um pull the Culver out some of the bank has been compromised so um that's why I'm saying 20 feet that's the maximum would be right now I think it's going to be 10 feet but you know we might want to have a couple of feet on each end so that will really determine um you know the extent of the bridge where the the corner posts are located okay and what is the name of the bridge you're proposing for the manufacturer is it um Great Northern dock they're located in Maine okay anything else you want to offer before I open this up to the members with question no okay thank you Mary questions for Wendy you on this um yes so just curious that the um the um Parker River station has an aluminum elevated structure you know that we're going to be we're going to be talking about later in our agenda it was put in with helical piles and it it was a little bit lower impact than what you're showing there with a 4x4 um my concern is that driving those posts into the mud is one thing but driving it through the Pete in in a dense um layer of roots and romes is a little bit more challenging and a little bit potential for causing some expansion of the PE in the area that you're pounding so I I would think that helical piles in the situation would be much less impact unless just my I'm not an engineer but that would be my take on it and it's hard to understand what if any impacts there would be of this bridge on you know the resources without a little bit more detail on you know are going to go if there is any support that's proposed in the Waterway because that showed supports in the Waterway itself and I don't think we want to have that I think we would want to specify that they be a certain distance from the bank um so that it entirely span and that we would need to know the elevation above the marsh where this is tying in you know is it a step off or is it a ramp you know typically these structures need to be elevated um the one one to one so they're withd it you know there if it's a four foot wide uh bridge that it it needs to be elevated four feet high according to the mass EP par and do guidelines so and we don't have toppo or you know any detail topography in in that particular area so I'm trying to simplify this as best we can this is not typically what we would see to approve a bridge we would need more detail and I don't know if this is something that we could approve the removal of the Culvert under the ecological restoration with the condition that it um that the final Bridge designed be submitted for final approval prior to implementation or something like that we usually can't issue orders that require submitting additional plans you know as a contingency but I'm I'm not sure how else to handle it in this case because we don't really have a lot to go on for yeah you know this is a this is maybe how you're going to do it um there one potential design but I suspect as you get closer to the time of doing this that you might have some other options that are a little bit lower impact than a full wooden Boardwalk because this is intended to really just I know provide a means of getting across the stream but it from what I understand this this path is not very heavily used and is Marsh from the end of the bridge all the way to the island so you don't you know there's some foot traffic within the marsh that we want to try to minimize so you don't end up having a lot of Channel I know there was an old Road there but it's grown over and it's now subsided enough so that it's part of the marsh so I guess I just I'm very supportive of the project it's a great idea to get the culbert out of there I want to try to help you out and make the processes you know as streamline as we can I just I'm just having trouble with the you know lack of really firm details on the bridge part of it sure Wendy yeah I mean I was just going to suggest Ry could you pull up the site plan again um I don't Mason is that pardon me U Mason is that something you can pull up from the the Dropbox I don't have that um loaded up site it should be in the drop box okay so the only thing that's really undecided Mary is just the location of the the four 4x4s um I was just showing that picture of the the larger aluminum Bridge because we had talked about that as a potential option I did also look at using um a gang way like we had discussed last time that's still around $45,000 and um there would be we'd have to come up with a way to pin it to the bank I mean those are made to attach to you know wooden structures so um I I don't know that that would be any less impact but I mean I'm open to considering it we just felt like the wooden structure would be the least impact in terms of you know yeah you would have you would essentially have an arched ramp is what they it would be and it would have I mean it would be sort of a custom design a certain length and it would it would pin with helical piles on either end Wendy could you take down your your yeah I'm not sure how to oh here we go sorry here we go because Mason probably can't put up the site plan yep give me one second okay if there's a way to to roll in a finalizing of the location of the bridge as part of this order I I think that's fine um you know I'd be supportive of that I just don't know logistically how that would work what we've done in the past Mary is I recall we we worded a condition where that the prior to the install of a feature that it would be be a pre- meeting with the agent Andor the commission we had some wording that we've used in the past to do that in this case I think it would be we would actually need to approve the final plan in a meeting okay do you think it might have to come back as an Amendment um I I I'm just I'm not sure how to what the best way to handle it is in this particular case and one one opportunity is just to make a special condition that says you know come back to the board with a final with a final um bridge design that has these Dimensions you know this this much height above the marsh and it's you know set back at least what however many feet that we decide is appropriate from the the banks of the creek so that we can essentially set some boundaries for where what it needs to how it needs to be designed so Wendy you said that you you're proposing up to a 20 foot clear span that will touch down on each side uh of the you know the farmer Culver that that was yeah structurally that was that that example that I showed you that's a 4 by 20 I I think it will need to be less so we would just do like one less section yeah but that but it would be you know up to 20 feet you wouldn't exceed it could no no okay no because we'd have to put Post in the Stream in order to make it more than that and we don't you know we don't want to do that so so 20 feet up to 20 feet wide by 4 feet 20 ft long by 4T wide right four 4x4 posts Mary typically would we like to see those set back 302 feet 30 feet inches from the edge of the proposed Channel or is it based on the stability yeah to maintain the the banks and to protect it from Ice and you know ice damage um I think five feet off of the bank or you know four feet something in that neighborhood yeah Diane Mary I just had a question when you're talking about the bridge remember was it was it 286 High Street that had that I thought it was a really good Bridge Mason I know we did a site visit you were there what was that made out of I don't it wasn't wood but it was elevated and it it it allowed everything underneath to flow and wind it everything was growing really well was that on the dock the dock yeah it was a long boardwalk and it led out to the dock and I remember we loved it because everything was growing so well underneath of it but I forget honestly what it was made of you know it had um the decking that's the other thing is you know it was space space decking so this had a a um you know a grid deck so that the light was penetrating it was it was aluminum and it had it was aluminum okay I knew it wasn't wood that's what I was trying to get at I forgot what it was but the the decking you're proposing Wendy is is 50 60% letting light through yes it's perforated yeah and and is it a composite material yes it is okay so was it again I'm just making is it is it was it proposed as 50% or what was the light Passage through it uh um they they said 60% okay so it's allowing 60% light through the through the what's the WID four feet four feet is what I'm proposing it tricky because this is a permanent structure not a not a temporary structure so it really needs to meet dp's sort of peer and dock guidelines because it's in the marsh so I don't know how we get around that um it without having a detail of the plan showing it at those minimum Dimensions okay let me go through all the other members and then we can Circle back on this too uh Woody what are your thoughts on this one well I don't know um the way to do it either I guess but um if we can keep the r with the celv removal have an amendment in the decision that we wait for bridge specs that would be helpful for governor dummer I I would be supportive of that um as far as the bridges concerned it details would be necessary so that it doesn't get kicked back D or for so there's no more further problems but if there's a way to write a decision that's says that we can get rich specs in the future that would be great and that's all okay thank you Ry Mick what are your thoughts on this one I think kind of same one I guess with Woody and and Mary too is um would those with the pilings that'll support the structure uh we're going to need some detail on like how like how they're installed and say to what depth they're going to be installed like are they going to be installed to refusal like at Bedrock or are they going to be so many blows per foot that says this is stable surface so I think that that's an important just to I guess add to your detail say on a profile of the bridge uh Bridge construction like how are the footings going to set they look like they're like a like a mudsill type of construction so what's kind of the defining Factor when we've driven it enough I guess y so I think that that'll be help to understand like the support structure and just I guess out of curiosity U what is the kind of life expectancy of of this type of Bridge construction five years 20 years 50 years so um what what I was told is 20 to 25 years it's it's basically pressure treated lumber so um but part of the maintenance plan that I submitted is to inspect it every year and and you know recode it as necessary and check the hardware and all of that okay yeah yeah I don't know if you have any soil profiles in that or you haven't done any like core tubing or anything like that right no and in fact I I don't know what was done to make it a cart road I don't know if they did anything to change the you know the soil structure and I don't know that it's you know strictly Marsh right now but um yeah we haven't done any cores yeah my thought is just you know having done some things like this as you start to back away and get closer to the cart road kind of Recon constructed area you know you could have have some difficulty driving those pilings in you know it really so kind of defining what your you what your limit of of driving is going to be whether it's a number of blows per foot or you know a certain like you got to reach Bedrock or you have to you know do some core sampling first to find out where Bedrock is type of thing so it sits on something stable mik anything else no that's it thank you okay Diane any any other comments on this does the removal of the CT have to be tied into the bridge and you like separate them as two separate projects oh we we had intended for them to be together just because it seemed like it was you know this is the ecological restoration is a a much more streamlined process um we did want to have the Mosquito Abatement folks Drive the post for us you know as part of the cul removal um you know then we can BR build the bridge at at our convenience in the spring we would do that in house so um well that was my thought that if you could break it down and just get the approval for the Culvert removal and then come back to either amend or once without having to like hold everything up while you figure down the bridge situation but I'm not sure yeah there's some limitations because they're filing as an ecological restoration project that was my question yeah we don't have a lot of latitude for um special conditions and everything it's it's supposed to be a standal alone order of conditions you know you have to meet all the criteria to to meet the category of ecological restoration and demonstrate you met all the requirements for submission for this type of title restriction removal um and then it's you know you give them the order you say okay you qualify here's here's all the conditions that go with that type of project so separating the two means that they would have to file as a a normal notice of intent but you know not having the plans not having any engineering not understanding like know you know who's who's accounting for the structural stability of this maybe the company that makes these can do that can do can give you a a detail sometimes they do that um and you can get one directly from them if you're going to use them um they can provide something for us I that would be helpful Frank any any questions for Wendy Wendy I'm sorry who did you ask uh Frank any any questions on this not really I'm I don't feel qualified to ask any questions on this at this time okay so I'm just going to do a recap it in the past we always asked for either a wood being installed in the ground or a helical pile you're proposing 4x4s driven to a depth of refusal that is unknown at this point Mary if this if they switch to helical piles would that make this any easier I mean that's not a in your mind it the four by the the 4x4s don't bother me I think it's probably the least you can run into problems with the helical too if you hit stone or something so um you know that's if they work they work they're easier to install and they're pretty stable with minimal impact um but I just not comfortable like without any kind of anybody stamping this plan or anything we're just sort of flying a little blind so I think I Mary's point about a lot of times the manufacturer will have a an SK on these and many times they'll provide a stamp uh or what what the you know what the span what the weight what the loads are allowed on it I mean I think we got to remember to this is a walkway it's not not a bridge for vehicles yeah um I remember when we're up in in Byfield at the solar field site there proposing putting in 165 ft clear span bridge but the landing Zone uh was on grave and and not elevat and that wasn't I don't recall that having any type of open grid on it doesn't seem practical that if this thing has to be at 4 feet above grade because it's 4 feet wide I mean that becomes stairs up and down eliminates the handicap accessibility at all um but I don't think it was intended to be handicap accessible well it doesn't make doesn't mean that we ignore that though I mean on the walkways on campus uh the grades were met uh what was the last one Wendy that you had walkways through Wetlands The Pedestrian walkway through the this is basically what you're doing you you yeah you're not eliminating a pedestrian walkway to is it Corn Island is that the island that that's what they yeah historically was called yeah okay yeah that is one reason we went with four feet wide I think we could get away with three but if if a wheelchair did want to use it four feet wide would be more reasonable there's not a wetland delineation that is along with this either so this this it's going to start in the Wetland like it do not it's not extending so it's expanding across the whole Wetland where you as you approach or call there's some there's 20 ft or so of marsh before you get to the crossing so there's you know permanent impact to the to the marsh itself which we can't have it's just the consultant and me is just having a hard time making this fit into all the boxes and so and and try to help you by by doing this and not having it just be bounced back we say you need to design something you know it's approved subject to receipt of a plan final plan that incorporates the final Bank Dimensions that also complies with D's par and do guidelines then that's going to mean it's gonna have to be elevated and it's gon to have to probably start from the edge of the woods and extend over it's longer than yeah you're proposing so yeah we're trying to minimize impact so that I mean that's the whole point behind this proposal but that's BEC if you're creating pedestrian access into the marsh then that you know the pedestrians themselves become the impact if they're not if the structure isn't elevated over it um so but isn't there a right to maintain an existing roadway or Farm Road don't I mean I don't think that expires does it I mean not if it not if it's become Wetland if it's the resource that's present at the time you fil regardless of what the prior use was okay so it it sounds like no one has a problem with the removal of the celv and and restoring you know the profile of the channel um the the Dilemma becomes you know installing the walkway would we consider and again I'm I'm kind of spitballing here the original request was to approve Pro this and allow that the four 4x4 post be located uh because that was all going to be done by mosquito control and and then require as a special condition a a submittal with a drawing showing the connection over the you know the the actual walkway with the details that we've been chatting about I mean I the other thing is you you get your approval on the removal and the restoration of the channel and you need to come back with a an amendment for the bridge with proper documentation I mean that would basically be our normal approach with you can amend that order oh okay because it's es eological I think you can amend it I can double check on that but could they submit could they had a separate noi for the pathway to the bridge and the bridge itself um over the marsh separate from restoration of the covert in other words do it as two different proposals I mean it's always a possibility it's it's just a duplication of costs and fees kind an effort right I think I ask a question yeah certainly will um what if the foot Bridge became temporary so that called seasonal and it was of aluminum type structure so that you wouldn't have to have the height the 4 to one height and it was a temporary stru that gets removed during ice and then that way the existing fom road is there and they just move the Al aluminum structure back and forth seasonally and it doesn't have to be four to one because it's not going to be there when there's ice is that something I know that's not what's proposed now but if that if we could possibly entertain a change like that and Wendy could scramble to come up with some stuff that needs to be done but if it wasn't a permanent structure it wouldn't have to meet the 4al one is this a is this ecological restoration project is a limited uh ecological restoration project no or no okay it's a full yeah okay yeah the reason to to have these together is the um I don't know if you remember the whole point behind this is for the students to collect before and after data for research um so if we pull the Culvert out for them to collect the data for the after is they're going to have to Wade through the stream and probably cause more damage than you know putting the posts in so um that that's why we had proposed it as kind of a a joint project Dan what do you thought what about remember when they had that research station out in the Great Marsh that has like the boards that are and then we allowed them to kind of become permanent boards because they were only boards what what project is that that's River station I saw that yeah actually I saw the annual report and it and it went very well it seems but something like that would allow them to get out there and do their testing and everything without having to put an entire ire Footbridge there um that's interesting Dan we did that under an RDA yeah and then we extended was probably a reach it was probably a reach at that time because it was temporary it was only supposed to be for five years and they've extended it but it's a way to get the students out there on you know granted its boards it's not like a whole foot bridge but it was in the marsh and that was allowed well just just a well I think you know what I I think Woody has introduced an interesting idea which is if you were to consider this temporary and and for five years which is what we've done before we've done that that was via an RDA Mary as I recall on the again I'm just going by uh what we did at the Paca River research station I don't remember yeah it was an RDA as I recall it wasn't it wasn't an order of conditions that would certainly give you you'd still be able to do your research you would be able to do you could be doing your celv removal and channel restoration and you have five years time to decide how you want to make a permit and what what permitting is required to go from a temporary to a permanent structure uh that seems reasonable so what what kind of boards are you talking about or could it be a a a dock gang way you should talk to them I don't I don't know but I know well they they were walking out through Marsh Grass so they actually had they had 4x4s going down with a 2 by 10 cross members and then 2 by 12 planks a b Bridge yeah but it was an elevator bog Bridge got it and they were going it was going to be removed uh what the normal removal for temporary for for darks and peers is it November 15th or something yeah okay if it if I may yeah if it was an you know aluminum gang way like a 16 foot or something they come you can get them with railings I think they're very reasonably priced they use them to get to docks on the Raleigh I've seen a good example of one on the Raleigh River by Burley and it could be manhandled up out of there and moved to high ground and it's something that you call temporary and it's something that you only be it would only be a concern for it would alleviate the concerns for ice or alleviate the concerns for elevation it was just a thought in my mind and then something that everyone could safely use and get across you wouldn't have any footings of pins it would sit on the grade on both sides and you just simply y it and fall it back down your bomb road to High Ground so it's not in the MH so it doesn't float away and the ice doesn't affect but that was my thought and I think some of those are you know they're not 20 grand that they're not $100 either but yeah $3500 to $4,000 probably but it it could be temporary and it'd be a way to get out know that your students were safe and they can get out there and back do their research and it was just a thought so it seems that if you take us you could consider closing out or closing out your order or conditions as proposed uh and then revisit access uh through an RDA more of a temporary means that could be conditioned for a number of years and so by temporary do you mean that that's seasonal as well as a a five you know like a short time frame you picture Dock and pair where you'd have to pull it back yeah you have equipment on site anyway you have Bob cats right yeah yeah I mean that seems like a reasonable solution to me um just just I'm sorry um for the I'm looking over the restoration order of conditions and there are certain categories of projects that are qualify for this provision that they've applied for they were applying under the title restoration provision so the special conditions for title restoration projects in addition to the other standard conditions that they list is if a project is a culvert or Bridge replacement or repair project an asbill plan in a written statement from registered professional engineer or other environmental professional expert in ecological restoration certifying substantial compliance with the design plans construction specifications approved in in the restoration order of condition shall be submitted then 90 days of completion the as built plan shall include the dimensions of the structure the invert elevation of the Upstream Downstream ends of the structure in this case you're removing the structure and the road or other surface elevation above the structure the applicant shall monitor pre and post tidal conditions upstream and downstream of the title restriction with water level recordings measured at an interval no greater than every 10 minutes over 10 a minimum of one week period that includes spring tide pre and post construction water level readings shall be taken at approximately the same location shall be referenced to the same vertical elevation data the applicant shall prepare a report de detailing the results of this monitoring within 12 months after construction is complete the report shall include and compare pre- and post construction title elevation monitoring data to assess attainment of the Project's predicted post restoration title conditions so sounds like you you have done that I don't know if you have you have it referenced to a title datum your your um your pre yeah well that was that was several years ago um I I did talk with Mason about that and we were kind of thinking that that would be only if we put a new cul back in I mean we're completely eliminating it we're not repairing it so there's no restriction at all now so I interpreted that to mean that that we would not have to follow those requirements I mean what what do you think that is one way to look at it no I mean it's because it's really referring to a CT replacement Bridge replacement or repair that's what you're F you're the category you're filing under title restoration but that those activities are a little different that would be for a would that be square hole here that would be for a permanent structure yeah that was my understanding it seems like that's what they're referring to Okay so I don't know I'm just hung up on the on the bridge itself and how to mitigate you know it's not just crossing the channel it's crossing the Wetland approaching the channel what happens beyond the bridge on that path out to the island you know it's on the old road I don't know how often that would be used it looks like it's lightly used but still used probably used by deer and other animals too um right so I'm I'm more concerned with you know the approach to it and people standing in the area where you're doing work where you have a group of students and you know they're going to be mucking around as you approach this bridge you want to make sure that that area is protected as well so that's it would just be helpful to have a a full design to be able to say okay this is what you're going to do we can approve this so if there's a way if if we can delay this hearing until we have that information that would be I think in my mind ideal if we if you need to get started sooner than later then we'll have to separate them and make us make some kind of a special condition that we're going to be asking for that information what was your thought Mary on the temporary approach that Woody had suggested and and we have we have approved in another areas yeah the only issue is you know impactful is it to what kind of equipment do you need to get it in and out every year and is that going to be more damaging if it's simple it's light and it could be moved by you know a handful of people by hand then that's fine but if you need to get equipment every time you need to You're Gonna up it's G to end up causing more damage every time you have you know and wear and tear on the peers and everything else back back 15 or 20 years ago this about three doors down for pearly's Marina there was uh because of the marsh condition in there uh this thing was like 28 ft long and four grown men picked it up and carried it off the a high tide they brought the dock in with it detached the ramp pulled the ramp up onto The High Ground they were on high ground at that point and then they fastened the dock so that it wouldn't float away and I I was impressed with how lightweight this was so if you if this thing's 16 feet long and three and a half feet wide how much could it weigh you know I understand the impact of the msh but yep somebody's got to walk through the channel or or figure out how to get it across the channel yeah yeah so it it just seemed like to me it seems like a a temporary structure might seem like a way to get keep things moving and it could be revisit it in the future a a time constraint on how long so maybe you call it removable SE and seasonal with the ice and everything and then you wouldn't have to have the height if it was temporary and removable seasonally well maybe we can condition the the re seasonable seasonable removable walkway in the conditions as a special condition where it wouldn't exceed 20 ft wouldn't be over 4T wide and it would be a seasonal know like like we we have another pier in dark area where it's you're stepping into the marsh before you get to the walkway so it's but I I I look at it that's a roadway we walked out it that yeah I I didn't see that as much I mean it it has a grown some vegetation but it that wasn't my that I mean it's a road it's a it's a b access Ro but the C the cover was there to be driven over excuse me Interruption yeah yeah no no listen we're we're brainstorming on this so but Wendy you have some options we got to we got to keep moving we have other items on the agenda tonight what would you like to do would you like to entertain try to make this more a removable temporary option yes yes I think that sounds like a good approach um I'm just not clear on whether that could be a condition to an ecological restoration order of conditions or that would just be a separate RDA I think either could work given that we have a few months before students would want to be out there um I mean I I have scheduled the Mosquito Abatement folks for January to comply with the time of year restrictions so I um if we can throw it in there and if there's objection to it from D then we we can withdraw that part of it yeah that makes sense Diane what do you think but then aren't we like drafting this and isn't are we not supposed to be doing that like we're s coming up with how this is all going to work and everything no it's it's all for the kids Diane it's all for the kids I have nothing against it just saying that like we don't have anything in front of us let me ask you a question 17y old saying we we want to do this uh that would be uh well I know I just think we're planning it I see Diana saying is we don't no no you're you're not wrong you're not wrong and then if D comes back it's like well where did the plan for like where what the applicant didn't ask for this like we're well no no it it's going to be her request that will it will'll make it a special condition you know accommodating her request or we're just going to approve this as it's presented without uh without any type of a a walkway I don't want to call her a dock or Bridge it's an axis it's it's it's a bog matat spanning you know likely probably at 10 or 12 foot span when you're when you're done but I want to do it I'm just saying there's nothing in front Diane you're being a lawyer is adding to shine through which is why we why we appreciate your so so what if I um kind of regroup and submit something in writing for the commission to consider at their next meeting um does that work you're just going to run out of time for January where that yeah yeah 10 business days uh right holidays although you got holay right now anyway but our next meeting is what the January 7th yeah would the commission be ready to approve the um notice of intent without the the walkway yeah or that from from what I'm hearing I I I think we would entertain that but we haven't I think the the concern right now is everyone's supportive for my what I'm reserving you know of the restoration effort and what you're doing it improves the resource the the hang-up is what impact if any does this uh access back to qu Island have on the do you do we want to consider Mary a a special condition that uh the applicant will submit a an SK you know a a a drawing or whatever we want to call it on a removable uh temporary walkway going over the former culet area and then if I mean d may may kick it back uh or but I mean I think if it's I think Woody's comment about it being temporary temporary in removable um so y yeah Matt goad Nick no I was just gonna say rather than use the term temporary would REM suggest using seasonal might be a the proper terminology okay well how do we want a word Smith I think let me go back does anyone have any other questions or require any other information on the actual cover removal of the channel uh restoration uh one question Wendy is there going to be any replanting or anything like that afterwards are you proposing any restoration or it just restore grade and let the grass grow in on its own there's no replanting plan or anything like that proposed no no the plan was I mean I think we will do some Bank stabilization of the area if the if they do put native material back on that scour area but we were not planning on planting anything y let's close let's see if we can get to a point what the remaining issue is so the Calo removals we have no further information we don't require any further information the channel restoration um going to be the native material or the rubble is going to be hauled off and that's that's been clear so are we comfortable with that aspect of the submitt does anyone have any requests for any additional information or further documentation on that aspect of it no okay so so hearing none the remaining issue is can we issue a special condition um on a seasonal ramp or walkway I think we should word it carefully so that it's clear that it's for educational purposes right for um right seasonal walkway seasonal research walkway exactly there you go like we're going to find out if we can do this I think and then you know the exact dimensions to be determined upon completion to be submitted to the PRI construction submitted to the agent or commission for pre-approval prior construction that how we usually word these things agent or commission or just agent well it's either agent or the commission because the agent could say you know this is more than I thought and it's usually either or and it usually becomes pick Mason okay all right well I I think we can discuss this special condition uh if we entertain closing the public caring under special conditions I think we can Hammer that out so let me ask are there any members from the public that would like to comment at this time okay hearing n do any members have a request for a site visit additional information plan Amendment or adding additional content to the notice of intent nope no okay I will entertain a motion to close the public he is this what you want us to do Wendy are you yes yes please the only thing we can address is the special condition is this removable walkway at that point okay move so where you made the motion d you seconded yes okay roll call vote all in favor Mary yes Woody yes Nick yes Diane yes Frank yes VI Connors okay now we can discuss we've closed that out now we're discussing uh a special condition uh on a seasonal research walkway where submitt final design submitt to be presented to the conservation agents Andor commission prior to construction uh prior to installation review and approval prior to construction okay okay so seasonal research walkway and what we what did you suggest now Mary sorry I was wrri review and approval by the agent review and approval by the agent did we want to use the word educational someone at some point said that would be good I mean I think research kind of covers covers everything um by the agent prior to installation does that capture our brainstorming session here sounds good you know my ninth grade English is not shining through here tonight by the way Wendy needs to have the students draft this and get it back you know what I'll just run this through chat gbt and it'll be be wor awesome we can add tone temperature Clarity okay so I I will entertain a motion to issue an order of conditions um actually in order of conditions for the ecological restoration project for 268 Middle Road with the following special condition that the um now I can't even read my my own writing here my God here the seasonal research walkway uh to be R to be to be reviewed and approved by the agent prior to installation yeah plans for yes the plans for yeah exactly I move to prove that special condition okay do we have a second second D all right hey roll call vote all in favor Mary yes Woody yes Mick danan Dian did you oh yes I said yes I'm sorry okay Frank yes and Bob Conor says yes all right Wendy I think uh thank you very much we're so smooth this was like sitting in the dentist chair for three hours with the drill running you know what we're all supportive of the project and we we think it's uh it's impressive to see the students participate the Next Generation was very impressive okay thank you next order of business thank you very much continued public hearing D file number 0501 1440 337 Street applicant is submitting a notice of intent to renovate their existing home including addition Stacks plan includes a mitigation planting uh mitigation planting plan project narrative and site plans Mason can you provide a overview on this uh yep so this is a new project in front of us uh this hasn't gone in front of zoning yet um so the zoning board um wanted to make it clear that any dimensional and Zoning setback comments um should be heard at that meeting which is I believe next week um and for further comments on this I would just say um I think it would be good for the applicant and their consultant to address um existing vegetation on the property um as well as dune Integrity as this is on a primary Dune okay Mason where were there any technical comments uh from the Department on this one uh I have not checked I can into that right now there wasn't today okay all right is the applicant or his consultant here and want to make a presentation yes good evening uh Tom with Hughes environmental Consulting I'm just trying to wake up after that last one um was an exciting hey hey hey Tom Tom we talked about cinder blocks another project I'm I'm just kidding um no so uh just so uh I'm here on behalf of uh Sue and Tom Costigan um the owners of 3 37th Street um it's the uh it's the property that is um just north of where doc Russo's house was if that makes uh for those of you guys who've been on the island for a while um if it's okay I'd like to share my screen and go through a presentation um from a wetland protection act point of view I will note this is actually a relatively simple project um so the um the property as Mason noted and as noted in my uh in my narrative the project site is on a primary frontal Dune um it's actually a fairly large lot a little bit over a half acre um these are the assessors lines that you know we have a survey plan in the file that actually has the actual surveyed lines there's uh a large parking area an existing building and uh and an entrance down onto the Dune you can see there's some area very sparse uh vegetation over in this area and you can see from this areal Photograph uh areas in here we'll get into that a little bit more um that are lacking some vegetation here's the location it's located on Plum Island which is a barrier Beach it's also uh located within um the velocity Zone but it's located within the velocity Zone uh because of its location within the primary frontal Dune the elevations of where the house is are actually um pretty high but uh as I think the commission is aware under the uh the FEMA definitions any primary frontal Dune is considered velocity Zone I believe that extends back uh through multiple sites uh in this area the Eastern portion of the half is mapped within natural heritage uh because of that this application was sent in for an endangered species review we actually received that letter yesterday they um have uh issued a clean letter I'll talk about that but they are recommending some conditions that would need to be attached to the order um and seeing as they actually requiring it uh we're just going to ask the commission to to do that you can see this is uh the velocity Zone V elevation 16 you can also see this line here that actually represents where FEMA has mapped the back edge of the primary frontal Dune uh in this section of Plum Island and you can see our location right here here's the existing house parking area this is actually doc Russo's old garage here um and this is 37th Street this also becomes a foot path to get out to the beach and you can see the existing house as a deck here um that actually has stairs that come down and direct people sort of towards the ocean although there are some walkways that take them back over to the path but it has led to some trampling in this area uh this is a view from the south again kind of showing the same thing so parking area is in a shadow that's why I kind of showed you that other view but you can better see this area here where it's uh relatively devoid of vegetation and it looks like in the past folks maybe have taken a shortcut through to get to the beach on this walking path in addition to this walking path so let me I need to move you guys out of the way so I can scroll around a bit here all right so here are some photos one of the things that's really uh impressive on this site is the ability of vegetation to be growing underneath some of the existing decks there and including in this area here where there's lattice that's fairly solid there's still pretty good vegetation growing right right behind it underneath and that is largely because this is um an east facing lot there's nothing providing any Shadow from the East um here's a picture of the building you can see these sand areas that are here sand are is here sand area is here the stairs coming down and in here just kind of some wispy vegetation this is on the north side of the house and there is a like a walkway along the grade in here um where uh you know there is there is foot traffic that runs along the side of the uh the house itself the house itself is on a uh is on a solid foundation so the reason I say this is relatively simple from a conservation point of view is that um while there are some additions to the house they're generally within the existing footprint the expansion is uh is really kind of squaring off some decks reorienting the decks one of the um things that really will have a longer term beneficial effect on the Dune is the reorienting the uh the access here down towards the path to the beach so that your your foot traffic is going to just naturally want to go this way as opposed to come out and kind of hang out here and make its way it doesn't mean that people won't walk through the property at all but it does have a uh a beneficial effect of just changing the the foot traffic patterns here um so here are some um existing and proposed elevations so you can see so we're adding additional deck a second level of deck um but we have on the deck there will be no lattice we're going to leave this wide open and for areas underneath the deck um there are going to be some areas that we will uh plant vegetation and I think we have a a good chance of it growing um you can see again here is that area where I showed you a picture there's lattice and there's vegetation actually growing right up to the building back behind here that is all going to be opened up the new stairway coming down and uh that gives us the opportunity to uh to also plant some of those areas uh here's another elevation view you know again EX existing sorry it just jumped um existing with some lattice proposed without lattice and again this kind of same thing here are some some pictures of the existing house uh that I think kind of show you that that lattice pretty well and its context within the landscape so here's what's proposed we are proposing uh to re redo these decks on the on the eastern northern sides um and a little bit on the south southern side and then uh plant can you enlarge that please yes absolutely we'll be planting um some areas that we've identified that are sand in this area here planting underneath the Leading Edge of the decks here and then planting this kind of area that's been scarred from people coming down those stairs um and and just having an impact in that area as well um and this is the work here that triggered the natural heritage review um none of our work on the building is within endangered species it's our mitigation work uh that is as well um we're removing some wooden walkways that are at grade so now you come down the stairs there will be um you know foot paths that just bring you right onto the path to the beach so from a conservation point of view it's really just some um relatively small impact from the deck Footprints and we fully mitigate that but we're also recognizing that there's a vegetation growing underneath the current deck structures and looking to replace vegetation in those areas that we can uh under the structure so the other thing is I noted we're in the V16 the grades of the uh of the land here are pretty much all above 16 I think we have a little bit below 16 right in this corner you can see a grade shot here of 162 in the street 156 so it's not the elevation that's making this velocity Zone it's the primary frontal Dune uh location and essentially um the way that works is the FEMA assumption is the primary frontal Dunes can erode and can leave you with uh you know leave you with a structure subject to uh to flooding in this case um the new decks will all be pile supported the uh work on the building does not trigger the substantial Improvement rules so it will remain with the existing Foundation um and uh you know again the the sort of upward additions on the house itself are not something that are is really an alteration under either the Wetland protection act or under the bylaw um the the work that is is pretty straightforward and uh we mitigate for all impacts uh there is a a table of impacts that is on the um on the site plans and now that I'm zoomed out I have to just scroll around and find it but so um here we've got our our total area we have um existing vegetation 19940 and proposed is 20,23 um and uh the existing dun grass under Dex is 342 we propose to try to maintain that at 344 now when I say it's 342 Square ft um any place where we have vegetation that's more or less one to two feet on Center we're counting that for the purpose of that existing calculation um just because if it in my view if it meets my planting standard for putting Doom grass in I should count it as vegetated on the other side um we will be planting one foot on Center for the Doom grass in those areas so um you know with that we're we're removing some of the wood walkways um we're planting a bunch of sand uh we are increasing uh deck coverage but it's all mitigated for um we're improving Dune function the primary frontal Dune uh is significant to uh flood but you know really in my view all dunes really are anyway and uh what we're doing here is is marginally improving the ability the Dune to um to provide those functions through the the plantings especially in that area that is uh east of the building and all of the impacts that we're having are fairly you know limited to an area that is immediately adjacent to a building with a solid foundation so the Dune function in those areas is somewhat limited regardless so with that I guess what I'd like to do is it'll open it up to the commission for any questions okay thank you CH all right question from the members uh Mary questions for Tom on this project yeah I had a chance to take a look at this site before the last meeting and um my question really is primarily the existing house is on a full Foundation or some kind of yeah CER blocks or something okay yes and how was I know we've been through this before with other projects but how was it determined that this is not a substan Improvement um just so because I know there's other work besides the decks that's being proposed to improve the home yeah I mean that so there's FEMA definitions of that and building code um definitions and Scott Brown is the architect and I believe he's had discussions with the building inspector and um when you look at that there are a number of different triggers for substantial Improvement the most commonly uh looked at one is an issue of the the dollar value of the work being done versus the dollar value of the of the structure itself um I don't have that information I've just been assured by Scott that they've gone through that you know dis those discussions with the building inspector um and if you go back and if we go back to that kind of architectural view of what's Happening you know it there is there is work happening on the house but um you know this is not the kind of thing that that you look at and it says okay you're totally renovating everything and the cost is automatically going to exceed 50% so that would be a determination made by the building inspector um yeah so I would recommend so since this is a um an issue of compliance with our local bylaw that we are administering I would recomend commend that we get a letter from the building inspector saying that this project does not trigger um you know is not a substantial fall under the substantial Improvement category which would then require the whole structure to be elevated to meet existing flood standards so that we my one comment is I think that we need to have that as part of the record to make our determination and not just rely on you know well doesn't look like it would be I we should probably have have something more substantial on the record um you there's a zoning issue that you had mentioned it's before zba um well it's it's before zba because on um Lum island in the overlay District if you increase height or lot coverage you trigger the py OD so it's just a special permit and do you know if that's been scheduled for hearing yet I believe it's next week next week okay um and then I agree the natural heritage comments that we received should be part of any order of conditions and that's all ahead okay thank you Mary uh Woody any any comments for Tom any questions with time speak no thank you Bob I'm I don't have any comments or questions at the time thank you okay yeah Mick any any comments questions on thank you up okay Diane any comments or questions on this part no I mean we we've talked about this whole substantial Improvement situation before and I thought we weren't allowed to sort of question it if if that wasn't our whalehouse it's right in our bylaw I mean that's sort of I you know I just know that we've come up against this before and then it's like is it up to us to determine I'm totally you know what we we're not the determining Factor the building the uh zon Enforcement Officers The Building Commissioner is so Mary you're just I'm just saying we need something from somebody saying that they've complied with this provision of our bylaw yeah we're not making the determination we're just asking for they do a new report the Conservation Commission in new report has you know they they look at you know the economics of the project and make a determination um the Conservation Commission does I they over this G on that with the State Building Code so but I I'm comfortable if it's just a a letter from yeah no actually I think you know way I think that's a good policy just to have in the future on this I I totally agree Mary I'm not disagreeing I just I agree with that but it's just yeah if if we become the people that are determining if it's substantial or not and if it's cumulative and you know all that it gets kind of crazy so um yeah it's it's when're not qualified it's outside our jurisdiction uh the to make the determination but once it's made then obviously it triggers another step for us and the requirements so yeah Mr chairman um if I may in the past this Commission in various iterations and various memberships um has conditioned projects to require prior to the beginning of construction a letter from the building inspector be provided that uh confirms that it's not a substantial Improvement and we would not object to that okay okay any any any other questions no the National Heritage we would just get into that one and the next step when we get into the conditions yeah I mean you know what that would normally be we' require a construction barrier protecting you know the that uh priority habitat during construction and the planting would have to be done offseason to what probably prior to April 1 and after August 3 or something like that whatever whatever's in the letter we can just attach the letter okay reference the letter as the ex and just attach it as part of the order y okay that was my question just Tom didn't mention what the conditions were but whatever they were we will do that came in it's it's in the Dropbox now Diane it came in late today so yeah I just I've just put them up on the screen okay good enough so it's the same one um I know the chair has found some of this objectionable about the closing of the beach for marking off of plovers and all that but where you know applicants are in a position where this is their Misa permit and uh if it doesn't get worked into the order of conditions it does put them at Jeopardy so I think we would just ask that you attach it to the order okay some serious constitutional issues to these requir yeah as I put on another hat in my life we'll talk about that later yeah yeah well that's the applicant's decision okay anything else Diane NOP and I will note um the Sue Tom will you hold Tom please hold off okay Frank are there any questions on this one let me finish my questions and answer what's proposed here if you would no I have no questions Bob thank you okay um so Tom what are you doing on on your pile on the you're doing driven pilings for direct supports or are you going with uh Diamond PE or what do you well it wouldn't be Diamond peers uh Diamond peers are not an appropriate uh it's not appropriate to use them in a land form that FEMA determines could wash away um or move dramatically so in a primary frontal Dune yeah it would be either it's going to be either helical or um or driven and I believe it's going to be helical is the current plan um and I do want to just notice the Sue with hand I believe is uh Su Costigan that the applicant so I just wanted to not note that to you Mr chairman sorry to interrupt you yeah okay uh all right Sue what comments do you want to make before we open this up to the public for comments hi everybody um I just wanted to mention two things first of all it's my understanding that we're before the zoning board on this Thursday the 19th not next week so if anyone's interested in that meeting um it's it's this week not next week um and secondly just to reassure you that the reason we don't have a letter for you from the building department in newberries because we've been postponed so many times with zoning um we're actually seeing them for the second time this week so once we're finished with them then we can complete our plans and then we would be able to show that we were within the um correct Financial limits for for our project so things are a little bit out of sync okay thank you s any anything else before I move on no thanks okay great all right any of the members have any follow-up questions for Tom at this time before he open this up to the public no okay uh any raise hands from the public at this time Mason do you have if you could step up to the podium and just give us your name and your address and then ask whatever question you may have speak no you can do it right there just speak 122 Northern Boulevard I'm on the west side of the project okay good even you have a few questions um for the for the applicant there weren't a lot of there wasn't a lot of information detailed information projects that were shared with the abutters so maybe these have been covered off with the committee but as abutters we were we have some questions um one of the questions is how far is the deck being extended onto the Dune there weren't any me um measurements or indications of the measurements of the overall increase in the deck size or how far it extends into the Dune it looks relatively small in those flat drawings but when you overlay the rendering over the actual picture of the building it looks like it extends quite a bit further than the current deck so I'd like to understand what that s of what are we adding on to this deck over the do Tom can you answer that question yes um so hold on let me um let me reshare screen okay so um when you're looking uh towards the ocean I don't know if you can see these lines this is the the kind of existing deckline and the and the stairs down and the proposed deckline is squaring this off in this area so in this area it's extending you know further and in other areas it's it's pretty much within that deck line it's not a it's not a tremendous ask I guess I'm asking instead of the bigness what is the measurement of the deck extension yeah no I I I hear you so in terms of um let me just uh pull up my measuring tool here can you turn off the the layer that's showing the regation time I think that might no unfortunately unfortunately I can't this is a PDF okay so the the plan scale I believe is a I'll just double check this I believe it's a a 10 but uh we'll double check that in a second so it's 0. 28 and uh from this corner right where it's where it's at its closest and then the the proposed one is 20 Tom yeah okay so it's 20 so that would be it's currently at 0 28 and a 20 scale that's about 6 feet and it's going to be 10 ft in that area so 6 by 10t to the East and what about to the north side um so the current um the current building and deck uh D let me let me back this out a bit this appears to be sorry my uh memory on my computer is a little wonky so it's that appears to be about about a 4ot extension in that area but let me just make sure that I'm actually measuring real addition I want to go to that uh architectural overview so yes so this is the existing deck outline so you can see what we're doing is we're coming out just shy where the existing deck is here but just extending that out further and and we're coming out four feet from the existing deck on the North side four feet okay and similar questions on the extension on that West Edition that you'll be putting in and how if that will impact the current parking or not reason I bring it up at this meeting and not just the zoning board meeting is we've had some issues with parking at that location in the past where the tenants had to park on 37th Street next to the house blocking the path um the foot path to the beach and people walk around and get go on to the dun to get to the beach so I want to understand the impacts of the current parking situation situation at the time so I want to make sure it's being addressed so as it says right here the new footprint at first and second floor levels is in the existing deck location so there's no footprint it doesn't extend further than that Second Story deck does currently no impact to parking okay and then the other question that's applicable to this board is what will be planted as part of the Dune mitigation what what types of plants do you um plan on planting it's American Beach Grass uh one foot on Center okay in all the locations yes I think that's all my questions for this um I have some questions for the zoning board meeting um but I think that's all I have for this meeting okay thank you are there any other members of the public uh that would like to ask questions or make comments yeah just come on up and just give us your name and address and ask address your questions if you to Tom Hughes or to the commissioner uh Nancy Richardson 4 39th Street you br m okay good evening uh good evening just for the extension of the decks um for the pilings that you are using how how is that going to affect the buildings around are we going to have great vibrations is that how is that going to damage or what is the impact to to the ground going to actually be how get inst and how how is the actual installation of them so most likely these are going to be helical piles and are spun into the ground and keep in mind that we're right up against this house which is a center block foundation so um if if there's going to be a house that's that would be damaged it would be this house um the uh even if we were to do wooden piles or steel piles um they would be vibrated in and I have stood a foot two feet away from these piles when they've gone in the ground and you know you feel the ground shake a little bit but it uh doesn't do any harm if it were to be something other than helical piles the pile drivers insurance company drives a sort of a a process they go through where they do a pre-installation assessment of the area and uh in order to protect themselves under their insurance policies they document conditions and uh of of nearby structures and they set limits and they measure at the property line if if there are is any risk of a vulnerability again in this case I believe these are all going to be helical so they'll be spun in and uh you know there'll be there'll be no impact piles are installed all over Plum Island all the time um with really you know you hardly ever hear of any detrimental effect so these hle piles are not going to damage any other the buildings right right around 337 yeah no I mean they um they just screw into the ground you wouldn't even notice it if you're standing 5et away okay thank you is there anyone else that would like to speak from the public yep come on up and just give us your name address and address your question to either the commission or to Tom Hughes Jim flaws number 5 39 streets Newberry one of the questions for him was they going to plant these things every foot on Center everything that's been growing there has been growing like forever once is you're planted who is going to you know make sure that they're actually growing and spreading and not just going to die and during the construction what they they shut things down due to Wildlife you can't go to the beach you can't go on dunes you know and everything else when is this construction going to be taking place you know in what time of the year all right so on the I'll answer the question on to the survivability of the planting once we issue if we issue an order of conditions the applicant has to come back uh to seek a certificate of compliance at that time the commission does a site inspection on the viability of the planting and usually it's a min of a onee growing period sometimes it's been conditioned to two years so that's on the survivability we won't issue a certificate of compliance unless there is a typically a 70% survivability 75 yep 75 and Tommy you want to answer the other question Tommy here on following sure so so we've actually been through an endangered species review they've issued a letter and they've issued proposed conditions there are no time ofe restrictions on the work that's proposed so we will not be subject to that because we're just barely in habitat and where we are it's planting all of the equipment operation Etc is not happening within habitat and so uh there are no restrictions in terms of time of year you know the time of year for this work to get done it depends in large part on when do we have all our approvals in hand when do we get all our you know contractor costs our framing plans and everything done and and um you know that will really Drive things and once the work is done enough so that all the work is off the ground and and more or less inside the house um then we can start looking it when the next favorable planting season whether it's a fall or a spring plant um and that would be done and as the chair said uh the plantings have to really be demonstrated to be surviving and and doing well before they'll sign off on the uh on the permit and the commission's permit is an order of conditions that's actually filed at the registry of deeds against the property and acts as a lean on the property until it's released through that uh commission sign off okay just seems like you know there was a bigger deal made out of that bridge going on and what's going on over here this looks like a major project all these projects are major and that you live next door to them it's uh I mean typically what we're going to require is that the applicant of the the raise my hand yeah no I ask about these 500 plantings are they included in the mitigation okay me it might help okay let me if I can finish my my comment then we can uh continue so we're going to require typically a construction barrier where that the footprint uh of the work area they're going to put up a snow fence or some some sort of other orange barrier so that equipment can't just wander into the priority habitat that Tom do you show that on the plan already uh yes it's shown right here okay all right uh Diane do you have a question no I'm sorry Bob I thought I was muted excuse me um I just had a question about the 500 additional plantings in the area there closer to 39th Street that that's not part of the mitigation or is it um so that was something it it is something that we're proposing um as part of our planting but I can't really say that that area is not vegetated so it's not an area I'm not taking credit for square footage over there but if we go back and and this is something you know we don't have to do but in my view as somebody you know who does Coastal geology and is looking at Dune health I look at uh these aerial photographs and you know I look at them on the conditions in the ground but there's been some uh Doom grass die off in this area sometimes that happens from trampling sometimes that happens from nematode infestations and um you know my recommendation would be we throw some American beach grass in there just just to try to get some established and um it's just it we don't have to do it to meet the performance standards I just think it's the right thing to do and I'm sorry I should have mentioned that but that was you know that was one of those things that you know I'm trying to improve the Dune function uh for my client's property in a way that that is protective of them and protective of the general area okay I see Lisa Pratt has her hand raised Lisa hang on one second Diane do you have any other questions before I go to Lisa now and again excuse me for before no no it was a very good question Lisa just give us your name and address and then address your questions to either commission or to Tom as you okay Lisa Pratt 124 Northern Boulevard and I had a couple of questions about the whole process of removal of the old deck on the Northern side of the proper property um how big are the pilings going to be how deep will they run and how big is the equipment that's going to remove the deck put the pilings in and frame out the new deck and how disruptive is that going to be to the Dune structure that sits right in front of our house and Allison Pike's house okay so um to answer that in terms of the equip um that will be determined by the contractor who's doing the installation typically helical piles don't require a large uh or as large a piece of equipment as perhaps if we were driving piles to support a a full-on building um but we have developed this limit of work uh to accommodate any equipment and basically when we do these limits of work um this would be the area that would be limited to the disruption firm equipment it's a fairly tight limit of work to the uh to the building and uh any areas within that so our our plan is we plant this as mitigation but if we damage dun grass in this area that gets replanted so when we come in for a certificate of compliance from the commission they will make sure that the areas that were doing grass when we started are doing grass and the areas that we said will be dun grass are dun grass so Tom you might be replacing the dune grass but what happens to the erosion of the Dune while these pieces of equipment are in there doing the work um first of all the the the it's unlikely there's any erosion of a dune um Dunes don't erode from water or or things like that they do move around with wind and if you know if the sand is you know moved around it's possible there's some minor windborne movement but the the largest uh areas for for wind movement are up in here um I looked around for signs of regular sand movement in this area and it and it's basically uh non-existent in this area it tends as you get closer to the building it tends to drop off pretty quickly because the building creates a buffer to the uh when born the a temporary disturbance of part of a construction project um is something that happens with every construction project on Plum Island and it's something that is allowed within the regs and it's routinely um part of the close out of these projects is to make sure that we've essentially healed the Dune during that process Lisa do you have any other questions um I feel like I interrupted you when you're in the process of answering my questions but um you know I guess just some questions about how big are the pilings how deep is this going to go into the ground I'm concerned that it will be disruptive and that we have had our house flood previously and this is going to contribute to the possibility that that could happen again okay I I think Tom answered the question on the the pilings helical pilings are typically 8 in 12 Ines and diam at Tom and they're installed with a bobcat that has a rotary uh attachment and it screws in like a cork sprw and it goes down to a certain depth of refusal which is typically what five feet so if I could interrupt Bob there is a um profile a steel profile plan that was included with the record uh in our drop box that shows steel piles there we go so they're they're no thank you 4x4 posts on steel piles and they show depth so and all this information just for The Neighbors um is available um electronically it's public record and you're welcome to ask the agent to forward you copies of all these plans so that you can take a look at them right Mary thank you for pointing that out I I was under the impression that we uh we were leaning towards the ilal but even even these um you know these are these are going to be H pile that are driven into the ground and they're driven to a point of refusal there there is a depth shown but basically they're driven to a through a vibratory means that it happens all the time on Plum Island it doesn't affect area water levels it doesn't affect flooding and uh it happens very near structur so unless there is already a structural flaw in a nearby structure um there's really really minimal risk um but uh you know and and that's all the the pile driver comes in with his equipment and uh and they go through that process they're insured they're bonded they they go through the pre pile survey to make sure there are no structures at risk before they actually start putting the piles on the ground okay Lisa any additional questions um I guess my other question is to put these pilings in are they staying within the footprint of the property or are they going outside onto the Dune structure you saw the previous plan that showed the limit of work so and that's what it there scre pings before you will see it's predetermined the limit of work where equipment or the workmen are going to be able to allow to go the plan shows the location of the peers yeah so you see the little dots on the green if you blow it up you could see the location of proposed peers okay so they will be outside the scope of the house the present home there well those are the those are the piles looks like supporting the deck there may be other structural I don't think you need them that deep for the deck do you oh there's this twostory deck that's yeah it's twostory deck and and here as well um keep in mind uh Mary that when the piles go in this is velocity zone map primary frontal dun so there's a scour element to the depth sometimes they go in deeper than you would typically think they go because we have to calculate for the FEMA purposes uh that they would survive a certain amount of scour right although the foundation wouldn't right no I mean that's the silly thing is we're gonna have a deck that is designed to withstand a hundred-year event surrounding a house that's built of Center blocks so I think Mary brought up a good point for the members of the public that are present everything that you're watching tonight is available if you reach out to uh Mason peric our agent and you can either go now and get copies of it or he can electronically send you U copies of this do we have any new concerns and new questions at this time I have a quick question for Tom why was he talking we were going to do the spiral things and all of the sudden Mary brings up that they're pounding them now how come he didn't just say we're pounding him right off the beginning well it it's just in all honesty I do a million projects and uh and on this one I know we had had some earlier discussions about whether we were doing uh driven steel and by driven they vibrated in um or or helical and sometimes we get to the building inspector and those things change um and Mary pointed out something that I you know I should have just flipped one more page and I would have reminded myself so I was not trying in any way to mislead um and as I you know I was trying to leave the door open for both types because you know it's still possible we go to the building inspector and he leans us you know towards a helical um but vibrated you know steel piles they go in all the time on Plum Island on just about every project that you see and both both are allowed by the way so that mean it it is an either or choice for the applicant and the contractor um it just seems like there's bigger equipment when I've seen these things used when they're driving them versus the Bobcat spins them in well that would that's correct on if they're driving piles it is a bigger piece of equipment but it is still limited to the area of work that's been defined on the plan I just think of environmental issues with bigger equipment that's all yeah again that's why there's a limit of work on the plan where that it is to minimize the impact of the resource which also minimizes the restoration to the resarch research excuse me resource after construction has concluded it also has a longer boom so it can reach over a wider area these steel piles any any other question yes just comment Al 122 Northern Boulevard the um the abing neighbors did their due diligence by coming to the town and asking for plans we we didn't see a lot of this information and a lot of the details weren't in there accessible to us is why we have so many questions tonight we did that's hence why we have a public hearing to um you know to provide this you know platform for parties of Interest uh to uh participate and and gather information yeah Mr chair I will note there are two hard copies full hard copies of everything that has been brought up on the screen tonight at Town Hall and uh and there's also electronic copies which I believe are in your drop in your Dropbox yeah so yeah again I I would just suggest that if you'd like to get copies of the documents you've seen tonight uh just reach out to the agent and he should be able to assist you you can either view them in person at Town Hall uh or likely they could be sent to you electronically so you could view them on your your own computer I had one more question when you guys do site work or visit the site are we allowed to meet with you at the same time and explain any concern concerns that might come around I'm not sure what what your visit yeah will we do a site visit I think is what he's asking yeah yeah I I'm gonna want to see a site visit I I haven't I'm not familiar with this site so I'm going to want to see a site visit will I make any further determination on it it again site visits is something that the commission request it is private property it doesn't mean that you have access to the property during the site visit as we have learned in the past from other site visits so subject to the land owners's permission so Tom can check to see if whether or not that would be allowed or not but I would think you you live in the area you kind of know the Topography of the of the property U there's no proposed grow grade changes uh uh that I'm aware of and there is going to be planting done uh you know to to further buffer the the resource thank you okay all right do any other members have any questions at this time all right do any members have requests for a site visit yes I I'd like to see the site additional information plan Amendment or ADD additional content to the notice of intent I would just request that if there is a site visit that the corners of the deck be staked out okay is anyone else interested in a site visit besides W yes than you okay yes Bob I'd like to okay all right uh so Tom we we're gonna we're going to request a site visit you sounds like you get the zba on Thursday that may kind of work to your advantage that this gets continued you should request a continuation or consider a continuation to the January 7th meeting and then if any zba issues arise um you know you have the ability to address some of okay so if we're going to do a site visit we do have uh holidays next week um but I would like to try to make sure we get it in before the 7th so we can come in and close out sth um so let's just looking at the calendar well why don't we do this you're going to request a are you requesting a continuance to January 7th um if you're requesting a site visit then yeah I don't want I don't want to go beyond the 7th so if you're looking for that um then uh let's take a look at what the calendar looks like between now and then um well what I want to do is I I would like to continue the public hearing and then we'll schedule the site visit prior to the next meeting all right that's fine okay okay so at the applicant's request uh I'll entertain a motion to continue the public hearing to the January 7 2025 meeting so move second okay okay roll call all in favor Mary yes Woody yes Mick hi Diane yes right yes and Bob Connor all right right thank you very much okay well you hang on one second though Tom if you want just uh let's just get the calendars that what I didn't want was the the public still uh hanging on public hearing has been continued right the only that's going to be discussed now is the site visit okay so today is the 17th I mean a week from Thursday the 26th of December how who's traveling I guess is the Dian of course you're traveler be here Christmas but I'll be back the next week okay or do we want to try to do it this week the 19th um if you want the corners staked yeah I don't know I mean I think the surveyor can probably do it pretty quick but it may not be done if if we try this week the only I mean I think to I'm just being realistic the corners you you've got a p you got a concrete foundation Foundation yeah no I it can be taked off you know you put some bean poles in there I think you could you could do that right um so this week Thursday is um it would have to be earlier in the day I have um well 8 o'clock in the morning would be likely what we would is typically when we try to do this yeah and I actually yeah and I've also got um as I think you probably know the uh sand is going on the beach in Salsbury and I've got to be be out there every day during that so if we do eight that's actually going to be that's going to be helpful and um separately I just want to extend if uh if Mason wants to do a site visit to a large nourishment project the opportunities don't H come up that often around here but they do come up and it's important to get some experience so uh if he wants to let me know I'm sure I can get DCR to give him a tour why don't you talk to him offline so we can finish meeting and so do we want to do the the 19th at eight okay team how does the 19th look Mary does that work for you are you already seen yeah I've already seen the site so I'm okay um I just would ask that Tom check with the property owner to find out whether neighbors are permitted on the property if not they certainly can be on around the property if they have questions certain yeah okay Woody are you you available Thursday at 8 yes I am how about how about yourself I'm available yep yes okay Frank you're available and Diane you're jet setting to Paris for new no no I should be available but I'm very familiar with the site so down the it should be there okay all right so why don't we do this why don't we schedule a uh a site visit for Thursday December 19th at 8:00 a.m. at 3:37 Street and Tom if if you could clarify uh if the owner will allow the the neighbors to right I I will and I'll get I'll get in touch with Mason on that um okay so we should be good all right okay all right any anything else in this matter all right thank you everyone thank you thanks okay uh so the next matter that we had a general project discussion lock and Road dam removal uh you've seen the presentation we had a site a site visit there last Thursday uh Mason and I were out there we met with the entire team walked the site Mason why don't you give us your overview on on that yep uh so yeah Bob and I were able to go see the site um and walk it with the team mostly going over um some more of the logistical things that'll apply to the Conservation Commission um in terms of staging and equipment and such um so we went over that there is um pretty decent Siz Access Road um on the far side of the Len bridge that they'll be using um staging in aning property's uh backyard that is actually Town property um but he has erected a fence and it's been there for a while um so Tracy and the town have been in contact with him to get the fence down that's where they'll be staging um we had discussed where we'd like to see erosion controls there and um yeah besides that um it was pretty interesting to see the project with all the rain that we had gotten um water was flowing over the dam and uh yeah looks like it's going to be a really interesting project yeah the there was still some unknowns as I recall we were asking there's a lot of concrete out there uh so they're certainly removing what you we at all visualize as the dam uh the fish ladder which kind of runs parallel to the dam but up but it's probably about 125 feet long um they're going to fill that in in in in order to create a access to take out the dam and then they're going to excavate whatever Rock and concrete and haul that off site and fill that in Mary the one thing that they didn't they couldn't answer was there's a diversion and I you know my knowledge of damn terminology is I'll be damned um it looks like that there was a Spillway that would Direct Energy towards um like either an overflow Spillway or back to where the Gris Mill was um that they didn't know if that concrete it's almost like a box celvin whether that's going to come out and be filled in or uh yeah if you could show that I think it would be yeah one one second let me find which one it's in Mason you get 23y old eyes you should be able to just look through those files yeah I'm that actually that's actually part of it right there y if you uh put your arrow uh if you put your arrow at 6 o' the lower P that's kind of a concrete box covet that water would flow under we were asking basically what hard structures were going to be removed or what was not going to be disted that's like the low flow yeah I or or it looks like the Overflow if it okay but it no one could answer quite what it was but the thought was it it was diverting P water to the uh to the Gris Mill to turn whatever yeah oh the low flow that's right by the damn that would cause the low flow to go over there okay this is the the fish ladder so we are asking are they going to are they removing the concrete uh the which is basically kind of a masonary set wall U and the answer was yes but it was going to be after the fact they're going to fill this in remove the dam St hauling everything out and then cleaning their way out we we asked that the trees to be removed would be flagged um so we will see when the plans come in but but that was pretty much did they say when they were planning on filing they were still kind of shooting for January okay now so if they file in January that puts them probably towards the end of the month it likely be the uh meeting is what the 20 second mean the 21st is yeah January 21st and and that was uh pretty much it the the other thing team was Mason we got the annual report from the Paka River research station that was in the drop box yep um didn't flag any any issues of concerns and a quick read um but you know they they been very good about submitting their annual report we're probably have other annual reports we haven't gotten from people that are required to submit them I think that's that's about it anything else Mason that you want to uh yeah ju just a quick update today um I got a call from Kyle L at D today um he's been in contact with John Co and Tony for the project at um 108 Maine um and it seems like they're working out some things um for a 401 Water Quality certification um um and some things that should maybe should have been permitted um before the fact um so he'd be keeping me updated with that um because we know that that has been extended with the co tolling um so yeah just a brief update on that and I'll be uh sharing more information as it comes in that's an interesting point Mary what do we do with that they have a basically they have an order of conditions uh that is in full force but all of our order conditions say it's subject to all other applicable permits required at the local state or federal level so if a 401 permit is required um how do we handle that I guess we don't have to handle it I guess you know because we don't do the 401s I'm not showing you're well I I I think what D was saying is it should have been required or conditioned if I don't want to put words in Mason's mouth no we don't condition it they just the applicant should have filed if they were required to file and they didn't that's not on us so if they stat work without it do we stop them or what do we do yeah we could you know notify D at least that yeah we're aware of it I mean often well I'll see conditions say that will say you know we know that you are going to need a 401 Water Quality certificate because there's you know more than 5,000 square feet of wetland alteration on this project or it's a real estate subdivision that triggers one and they'll put it in you know provide us with a copy of it once it's received right and that that the order isn't valid until it's received um okay but it's still up to the applicant if they're responsible for getting a permit and they didn't that's on them all right so Mason just keep track of that what at some point I think Colin is going to come in and look for for an extension know his first extension on this yep okay last word any any partying comments other than wishing everyone a happy holiday safe travels and if you like snow hopefully it's only in the Hampshire Maine or Vermont happy H happy happy holid Christmas all right marry will you entertain a motion to adjourn this meeting I entertain yes I will make a motion I will that motion okay all right okay all in favor Mary Woody M yes