uh good even everybody this is uh the newb zoning board of appeals it is Thursday May 16th 2024 it is 7:30 we're here at the Newbury municipal offices both pentway Byfield second floor um with us tonight we have Chrissy V who is our excellent Administrative Assistant we have Martha Taylor Our Town planner Michelle ler who is an associate member uh Jack Kelly who is a member Larry Murphy was our on to planning board I'm Eric span I'm the chair and for tonight Michelle who's an associate member will be a voting member since this three of us we need three of us Jack with that you want to read the first one or [Applause] certainly public hearings Tim and Anna 76 Northern Boulevard regarding the property at 80 Northern Boulevard the office of Attorney Jeffrey roloff's PC has filed a notice of appeal on behalf of Tim and Anna D of 76 Northern Boulevard against the town of Nu's director of inspectional services for his zoning enforcement decision dated November 29th 2023 issued to the Ws of a order the boulevard as being legally deficient this appeal is brought pursuant to NGL chapter 4 a Section 8 and section 15 as well as the Tom of Newber zoning bylaw section 971b with regard to the property located at 80 Northern Boulevard Plum Island Newbery Mass assessor map 03- 0-1 181 and this is continued from 215 314 excuse me 21524 31424 and April 18th 24 great so this uh we this hearing again and I think for the first um first need of business is an extension agreement for um this appeal uh we have extended the hearing on good faith and honestly it's uh an oversight on the board because we usually well we don't deal with Administrative Hearings uh that often uh I think in 13 years this is the third so our um [Music] yeah my apologies for letting that slip so Martha I would just ask is this do you have done these before with the planning board or we've done extensions but never of an appeal against a decision we've done extensions for um um projects that are completed in time and was there a discussion with Town Council about this this particular yes um it started with discussion between um attorney rollof and attorney okay so I'm willing to sign this and extend it to um I guess I'll explain a little bit more but for the Massachusetts General law there's 100 days in which in terms of the appeal period that we were not aware of and so we we extended um the hearing in good faith in order to continue it gather information and have the U proper people here so we'd like to keep with that and we'd also like to hear and move um this application along tonight in order to keep things moving so uh hopefully we're all fully bared with the discussion in order to to act as as we are so I will sign this so the June 7th new uh date is a Friday is a Friday that's a little problematic yeah I I am to we are totally happy to provide an extension to whatever date you want I didn't know what your normal protocol was in terms of um wanting to draft a decision just what the statute calls for is 100 days to render the decision which I interpret as voting and then it typically gives you 14 days after the vote to finalize the decision it's totally different than the special apartment world where you get 90 days I know that um if you want more time after June 7th to either you know you you'll want to decide later tonight I suppose whether you want to continue the hearing or close it but we're happy to extend it to whatever date you're comfortable with if you want time to draft a decision and review it at your meeting on June 20th so You' prefer a date a final decision deadline after the 20th no problem that's fine okay our our decisions have been um enhanced and let's um and officially record um and so it takes a bit of drafting and so in in the past someone we might have gotten things done a week or so because it was a one pager and now we've got a better recorded decision that fully encompasses the hearings and the documents uh and the decision so that does take a bit of time uh Chrissy does an excellent job but she's only got two hands so we're not trying to squeeze the in time like I said no we'd like to move this along for both sides of the of um the resident and the application here so with that um I guess June SEC 7th the third Thursday of the month is is the 20th and then I would suggest getting yourselves you know sever you know until the next week to actually sign it and get it filed with the clerk okay so do we have a date the following Thursday would be the 27th okay if you want to add a week done just in case we have no problem with that we can just hand write the change on the proposed agreement I sent you I'll initial it and we can get that wrapped up tonight yeah so I will put June uh 27th it would have to be done by the 20th and then are we good with the 27th so we got to draft it to take a vote you have one week to tweak it and for everyone to come in and sign it think we can do that mhm do you want me to just initial that date change yes please all right up what we left off please okay thank you uh do you want to hear from me I I'd like uh like the two-minute recap I think please and then we'll we'll hear from uh anybody in public and then we'll have a discussion and then we'll see where that that puts us sounds good Jeff roff's Council to the petitioners here um I actually think in my perspective this appeal is more simple than what it may seem given some of the sidetracking that we got on I feel like at the last meeting and some of the sort of disputed issues that were raised in attorney Sheet's um letter that came in after our last meeting um the legal analysis I believe is actually pretty straightforward the boy land Court decision that we submitted with our appeal I read it again preparing for this meeting the facts could hardly be closer I mean factually as related to this case very similar facts the Lan courts uh the land Court Judge uh provided a very sort of reasoned well thought thought out and articulated a legal analysis and basically came to the same conclusion that we're asking you to come to here um despite what attorney sheet says that is good case law it's a l Court decision it's not an SJC case but it's a good case it's not was not overruled or overturned it's a valid Lan Court decision directly on point and it provides the road map for your analysis the starting point for this appeal is that the billing inspector did conclude that this renovated garage space is an illegal second dwelling unit um it was it was renovated and established without any permits and approvals we did not appeal those findings neither neither did the wards so that was the that's the starting point for your analysis however he takes the position that the ward should be allowed to continue using the space apparently with some Renovations as an extension of the single family use we disagree with that that's the subject of your appeal the anal Anis from that starting point we think it's pretty clean um the use of that space as a living area as a bedroom or a living area it was never permitted no building permit no occupancy permit no zoning relief no findings no special permits no permits um the use was unlawful when it was started the renovations were unlawful and there is no statutory grandfathering for uses unlawful uses that were never permitted that's to be distinguished from the grandfathering you get from unlawful structures so the renovated area is an unlawful um area in it's renovated form structurally but we're not asking you uh to order the wards to remove the area the structure has grandfathering protection because enforcement wasn't pursued within 10 years of the space being renovated and established the use of that space as a living area is not protected that's the boy decision it's an an unlawful use that doesn't have the benefit of being uh authorized through at least a building permit is unlawful when it starts and it remains unlawful forever even if 10 years pass or 20 years pass and nobody sought enforcement so that's the Crux of our appeal um it's important uh we think that the the zba make it very clear in this decision that the uses of this space is unlawful it's unlawful for to be used for rentals and it's unlawful to be used just as a living area or a bedroom if the owners or future owners want to use this garage space as a living area as an extension of their single family house or as an accessory uh living area they should do what every other landowner in town should do if they want to or it's especially in the pad if somebody wants to use their garage or a shed or some uh whether it's attached or detached doesn't matter as a living area they have to come to you and get zoning relief for that a fining a variant something so they should do they also have to get a building permit and an occupancy permit so we're asking you to require them if they want to use this space as a living area to do what every other owner out on Plum Island has to do if they want to use these kinds of uh structures uh as bedrooms or extensions living areas um as extensions of their house or as just an accessory independent space there are certain facts um that have been disputed in this appeal that we don't need to resolve here they're not relevant to that analysis the precise date of the garage Renovations doesn't matter the the evidence that we submitted was that the renovations were done in the '90s attorney sheet suggest that they were done sometime in the 70s when the garage was built either way it's clear that those sorts of Renovations require at least a building permit and an occupancy permit and I can confirm and Martha Taylor can probably confirm this too the um zoning biolog were in place in Newberry in 1959 I think Newberry actually adopted its own building code in 1967 um I have a copy if you want to see it that in 1971 they amended the building code to include specifically an occupancy permit requirement so this work under everyone's um um contentions was done after all of that was in place so at the very least they needed to get a building permit and an occupancy permit when you go in for a building permit and it's in the 67 building code you know there's an application there's a zoning review that's done there are inspections that are done there are engineering plans that are requireed there are Foundation requirements um that have to be complied with there are inspections after construction and then obviously ultimately there's an occupancy permit and all of that for good reason so no one none of that was done the space was renovated and established um illegally without permits and the use of it as a living area was never authorized it still has not been authorized and it and that should be confirmed in your decision the number of veterans in the main house is another sort of side issue that we don't have to resolve here it might be relevant if they come in with an application for a finding or variance um as they have but for this appeal it doesn't matter you don't have to resolve that here what is clear is that the use of the garage the renovated garage space cannot be used as a bedroom or any other living area for the reasons I just mentioned if they have three bedrooms in the main house so be it that's fine if they have four same thing it's going to be relevant if they come in here with an application looking to demolish the house and build a new one and um try to build one that has four bedrooms because they're claiming the main house has four bedrooms then it's relevant it's not relevant for purposes of this appeal because you're being asked to render its termination based on the facts as they exist currently future permitting proceedings will be managed at that at some whatever future date that is um again the boy case provides the road map for your analysis I'm not going to go through it here you have it with our appeal package it's sort of a lengthy decision as a lot of these lanor decisions are but I read it again today and if you just take your time and walk through it it's directly on point um what they what the land Court ultimately that also involved a renovated garage um and the analysis there was the same analysis we've been uh arguing that you should follow here and in the end the land Court um issued an order that this the renovated garage space could not be used as a living space and it enjoined any such use it required the removal of the bedroom the kitchen and dining facilities in their entirety and it's identifies the stove refrigerator kitchen sink kitchen counter and all Associated Cabinetry and it required disconnection from the SE system all within 60 days um it then went on to say that in this case based on the zoning bylaw in place for that case the parties had agreed that the garage could continue to be used for a toilet and a shower that they had established there because apparently under their zoning bylaw um showers and toilets in garages were typical accessorary allowed uses as a sort of garage storage space so that's just a question for you but that the the remedy there and I want to get to the remedy just clarify what we're asking for as a remedy it follows very closely the remedy that the landan court chose to provide in that context um first with respect to your power uh to order remedies here 48 section 14 provides that the board of appeals in these types of appeals of building department decisions uh is authorized to make orders or decisions reverse or a affirm in whole or in part or modify any order or decision and to that end shall have all the powers of the officer from whom the appeal is taken so your authority to issue zoning determinations and to issue orders such as cease and toist orders and the like uh are very broad there you can do basically what Peter B was authorized to do in the first instance again the boy case provides the road map the relief that my clients are asking for here um is basically as follows number one um because we didn't challenge this part of the a building inspector's decision uh we're asking you to affirm the building inspector's decision to the extent that it concluded that the renovated garage space constitutes an illegal second dwelling unit which is what he says in his decision and also to affirm his order that they stopped renting that space so those two parts of his decision we agree with nobody has challenged those and we're asking you to affirm those we're asking you to then because we think you didn't go far enough to do the following number one determine and state in your decision your determination that the use of the renovated garage space as a bedroom or any type of living area has never been authorized and is unlawful so that's a zoning determination number two based on that determination order the wars to stop using space as living area limiting its use to the garage use that it was originally constructed for and storage uses number three and this really goes primarily to the enforcement aspect of it and it's consistent with the bo uh decision order the removal of the kitchen and bath fixtures and we're requesting that that be ordered to be done within 60 days when we say that I don't think anyone's asking them to go in and tear out their walls and insallation and all the piping and everything else it's basically the fixtures at the end point so that it's not so easy for renters or others just use it uh as a an extended living area because using it as a living area is unlawful we are okay with them keeping so we're okay with them keeping the walls and insulation and the the plumbing and stuff in there that's behind the walls trying to keep this simple um maintaining electric and heat we discussed this at the last meeting we're fine with that also some people Heat their garages or storage spaces um and again we have no problem with them using this as a as a garage or storage space so we're okay with the uh you know avoiding having to tear out the walls and we're okay with them continuing to M maintain the electric and the Heat um again um I keep saying this because if you haven't yet had the chance to review it carefully and you will before you write your decision I feel strongly that vo decision is directly on point and it provides the road map for what we're asking you to do thank you thank you all right is there any update or anything you'd like to say or I I think you know I've talked about it a bunch of times and our attorney has certainly made clear what we did we feel that you know our investment in our property and the way that we follow the rules for the pyad and what's supposed to happen um should happen I mean the space is illegal to clear it's legal it's not it's being used as a multi film you we've argued this multiple times um you know it's not I can't imagine in any other I work in this field my whole life has been in the business for multiple Generations it's not another town building inspector if somebody would have a legal structure that has no structural plans no plumbing inspection no electrical this would even be to this point um so but with that said we purchased our property before the the wards did why the P rules were in effect the prop the property has never been structured doesn't meet property lines and if they want to have a separate living space then they should go through the permanent process and all the rules that are are are put in place to protect not just the wards but everybody else sits around them so that's what we expect thank you thank you there anybody else in the audience that would like to speak I don't intend to take much of your time but I'll after Mr Ward I'd like to just bring some clarity to this the decision here today is whether or not the building inspector was wrong that's what the petition is saying the building inspector was is wrong he should have gone further he didn't go far enough the building inspectors submitted a statement today that I'm sure you've read saying the construction work done here is obvious to him it's obvious this was not built by Mr Ward the the Dr don't even know when it was built their attorneys told you he doesn't even know when it was built they're asking to tear apart the structures inside of the house without getting into the structures within the walls but what they're really asking you to do is sit in the garage and have your building inspector sit there and wait to see how people are using it on the inside there's there's no evidence whatsoever that Mr W and Mr ward has already said multiple times that he has never used this as a multi-unit of residence it's always it's been rented as an entire single unit there's a a Breezeway between the garage and that's how it's only that's the only way in which it's ever been used by him um and really ultimately what it comes down to is whether or not your building inspector was correct that's what the appeal is about the appeal is saying that the building inspector was wrong and if you're willing to overrule your building inspector when he's saying it was obvious with all of his years of experience and all that he's doing I think really what you're being asked to do is send your building inspector in to see whether or not somebody's slept too long on a couch in the garage whether somebody's living in there in some way whether they've used too much water you're going to leave the plumbing in there but not let anybody use it that's what the order is supposed to say I don't think that's reasonable and I don't think it's enforceable and that's not the reason that we're here today we're here today I think really to affirm what the building inspector is saying is obvious to him and and to let him do his job and I think he's done a great job about it and that's the only thing I'd like to say beh Mr thank you anybody else in the audience like to speak no okay so discussion for the board some thoughts I guess I'll come first this we talked about this case at length it's a complicated I don't say it's a bad piece of property it's a complicated piece of property there are a lot of issues but I think it's easy to get lost in the weeds but seems like our our decision tonight is to support or overturn the building inspector's decision so it's a little bit more narrower than all these other bedroom issues and stuff so that's that's how I'm looking at at the moment um I guess the only part of that that doesn't feel like we're overturning we're just adding on to what he's already said um sorry I'm still thinking in my head I can't quite you can go first let ask let me ask a question to just confirm for the record as we're here tonight the spaces that are behind the garage are um a room a room with a kitchenet in it and is there a bathroom as well there is yes it's a yeah a shower and and a toilet okay and a bedroom well yes that's that's I called it a room well it's a separate space from the kitchen now yes yeah okay a room a kitchenet and a a room with a toilet in a second or toilet that's correct it do yeah and a shower so um agreeing with Jack that this this property has a lot of issues it has a lot of past issues um there's a lot to to be discussed and had um and out of our bylaws 97-111 the definitions a dwelling unit a single unit providing complete independent living facilities for one or more persons including permanent pres Provisions for living sleeping eating cooking and sanitation is the definition in our bylaws of a dwelling unit um and uh so got quite a lot of history on this you understand that the the record um of the structure 10 years has passed the structure is legally non-conforming the structure is over the property line um the structure is precariously placed in that it is clearly um positioned with a Breezeway between it and the house uh and the other structure between the garage structure and and the the the other structure on the property uh which makes it precarious in terms of of definitions and understandings and our next applicant is talking about a attached accessory apartment and uh reading through that preparing for that and thinking about this case but I do think this is very simple and I did talk to Town Council did not share um my thoughts or my conversation with Town Council with anybody else but the understanding of of what we're here for the application that has been made um understanding the section that you cited for the Massachusetts general laws and our board's uh zoning board of appeals ability to overturn or enforce um or take on the role of the building inspector um is clearly understood but I would my feeling is that we're not here um to take on that role only because it's not we're not we're just not equipped an experience enough to to act like that we have a building inspector we're a small town we rely on the building inspector he does a good job and we entrust in what he is saying and what he is doing he is the enforcement officer we um as a board I feel do not want to take and we're very clear on not taking other boards and other committees roles for the jobs that they have in town uh Conservation Commission Police Department fire department and so there are other um other department uh concom and we typically get asked and people make arguments against applications but it's not our jurisdiction so to be to be the enforcement arm I don't think is is our role because of our experience here that said um I do think that there is an is issue with um the space in having a bathroom and a kitchen there's no there's nothing in the bylaws and there's nothing in the building code that says you can't have four kitchens in your house if you're really want one um but the definition of a dwelling unit and the sanitation and the fact that there is a bathroom there then creates a separate um a separate unit so in my opinion um and the wording here is a little different we either accept we either deny the appeal which is an acceptance of the building inspector or we accept appeal which is the denial of the building inspector so the wording is is just a little bit different um [Music] and so to me I think that the the space and and the use and having a second kitchenet at a be beach home even though I do see some issues with the Detachment the fact that we're not the enforcement officer that um that I would argue the removal of of the bathroom then makes it just additional space to the house people that are there would have to then go into the house and there isn't a separation having the bathroom there means that one one side of the house could be locked against the other side um the building inspector has said that it is not a rental unit is not a fifth bedroom is not um and and he and and the enforcement falls to the building inspector's department and yes it would be hard to rule um obviously if there there are complaints we are not land Court in order to get the land Court you could challenge a decision that we make here um so the building inspector makes the decision if we were either way if we were to fine for or against your application the the path to appeal would be to land court so um that's if you guys understand what I'm saying I think I'm saying um yes I think so yeah I I think I'm in I'm in favor of um denying the appeal accepting the building inspector's enforcement and adding a condition that the bathroom needs to be REM so the only question I have Eric is you said I'm looking at the letter today you said it cannot be used as a bedroom I didn't see that in there this can't be used as a rental but also you are listing a fourth bedroom single family residence if the space in question creates a fifth bedroom it would be in violation of the piod and would need to be converted to a different living space please let me know um when the code violation work has been completed for a final inspection that's that's the original uh that's the original okay letter Peter okay I look at the modifications the one I don't think I saw letter I guess I'm looking at this one I don't think that's the letter that was provided to me in response to our enforcement request because he did not in his letter um this is his original enforcement request I emailed that I believe I did email that like just what's the date on that one this is uh December 27th 2023 okay I was looking at the one dat of today which is clarification doesn't overturn it okay well it's saying the number of bedrooms has no relevance one to that so is he said did he say then that they can't use that space for an additional bedroom I didn't I haven't seen that I agree with that I am writing to follow up on my post enforcement or inspection of November 30th 2023 as we had discussed the space that leads directly to the garage from the additional living space needs to have a door removed and a 1hour firewall installed also you are listing you are listed as a four bedroom single family residence if the space in question creates a fifth bedroom it would be in violation of the piod and need to be converted to a different living space please let me know when the code violation has been completed for final inspection before reuse so that's pretty clear upon accepting projecting your application accepting the building inspector's enforcement accepting his enforcement letter it is up to the building inspector to enforce whether that is a bedroom or not for um to help with that enforcement the condition upon the rejection of the application before us would include the removal of the bathroom the kitchenette could stay you know they could they have a some people have other kitchenet where they want to I cook lobsters instead of cooking in the house that's fine um and so by doing that the zba has has removed the condition that the definition of a dwelling in it is removed from those rooms and how those rooms get used are per the building inspector per his original enforcement sorry not to cut you off but in in addition to his first letter than his most recent memo also his enforcement order concerns the use of the space and prohibits the rental either long or short term as a separate space so I think again that's that's agreeing I think with what you're asking for he he's enforcing it the use of it right so can I speak to the remedy here cuz I'm a little trouble by the perception that your options here are either to accept the appeal or reject it those are definitely not your only two options the zba is the ultimate decision maker when it comes to interpreting the zoning by law I know the billing inspector is in the first instance and I know you don't want to get into code issues I understand that he's sort of the code expert but in terms of applying and interpreting the zoning bi you're the ultimate local Authority you know at at this level it's you it starts with the billing inspector Z enforcement officer but that's why they have this appeal Avenue it's to bring it to you so what we're asking for is not it is a hybrid it's accepting part of what he decided because we agree with part of what he decided but it's going further than that because we don't think it's appropriate for them to use this renovated space um after making some further Renovations apparently I don't even know if they're pulling building permits for that not clear but I don't think they get credit for having IL legally renovated the space before and can now just go in there and make a few adjustments and then continue using it as an extension of their house without getting the kinds of zoning relief or or an occupancy permit for example but at least the kind of zoning relief that anyone else on Plum Island would have to get if they want to turn part of their garage into an extension of their even if it's attached let's just take an easier example they have an attached garage and they want to put in that garage right next to their existing house with a even if it has a common wall let's say they want to put in there a little extra living space they're going to wire it they're going to you know maybe it's bedroom that when they have to come to you under the pyad it's a nonon lawfully pracy nonconforming structure because it's been there for so long they have to come to you and get permission for that extension of their living space they certainly can't just start using it for rental but they also just can't do it and use it themselves just like a landowner can't decide to turn their shed into an accessory living space even if it's further own use and they don't plan to rent it they just want to have a little extra space for them for themselves for their own guests they're I looking to rent it but they want to take their shed turn it into a living space let's say it doesn't even have a bath it's just a living area with a with a kitchenet and a bedroom and a and a bunk bed they can't do that in the Pion especially if they already have three units but three veterans but even if they only have two bedrooms they can't unilaterally on their own without even without a building per occupy P but they can't just go in there at a bedroom in their shed because they have to come to you first so that you can evaluate what they're proposing and and then apply this the finding criteria that you do in most of the cases that come to you in the P context so these guys are looking to get a break because they illegally renovated this space not them and this is nothing personal against the wards the prior owners illegally renovated it years ago and they're trying to get credit for that and the law says they shouldn't and the zoning bylaw doesn't give them an out and no one here has submitted any evidence or legal Authority for them being able to do that without coming to you first and asking for permission not in the context of our appeal that would be a discussion of a future application so it's not yes or no on our appeal and you do have the authority to apply the zoning by law and the legal whether or not it's a legal use without having secured any approval so I appreciate your followup I think my um understanding we're not trying to uh reward past dealings we're not trying to um sweep it under the rug but I like for me we have an enforcement officer that has looked at it and has made a judgment and for that judgment [Music] um and as you said a condition of removing the bathroom makes it dependent on the remaining structure of the site so that it would not be um a separate separate rental which would certainly be more detrimental than the use um than the use of a single family structure uh the fact that it's a room in the definition of a bedroom and the and I don't know how we we control that and whether it's a you know just because on the plan it says storage unit or it says office um you know it could have many different uses but the fact that it has a kitchenet the fact that it has a bathroom then makes it uh a dwelling unit so I hear what you're saying um I understand the property has issues I think the the building inspector has set some enforcement and as you said if we add to it I think it resolves and limits greatly limits the use of that space to a single family residence which is acceptable on on island can I speak briefly on the removal of the restroom hang on a second sir just not that keep believe this I understand but at the end of the day we have there's laws in place there's no that's why we have zoning and the space is there we we all agree it's illegal and it's not correct what should happen as it would for every other res president on Plum Island in the pyad is that you pull a permit you go and you go in front of zoning board and the zoning board decides if you're going to give him some relief to allow him to do that I don't I appreciate the building inspector in his role as an enforcement officer but there's process so we have consistency now what you're saying to me is the building inspector has a right to enforce or circum vent the rules that are put in place for every other resident depending on what the situation is I had to renovate my property we wanted to fix the garages so we could fit a car in there soon as I touched that I would have to go through zoning put it up on the lift all that stuff so I went through that process wasn't allow so there zoning there zoning in place and pyad and all those things are put in place for a reason there's nowhere where it says the building inspector makes a determination if they can cvent P pyot or or zoning or whatever it is if there's a question of how the space is supposed to be used we want to take this bathroom out this we're going to do this this that they can have a kitchen it just needs to go through this standard process it's never been legal ever ever ever so the fact is in every usually a building inspectors involved once a permit has been pulled and then there's question of the structure is not built legally then he inspects that in the state of Massachusetts or makes a determination if it's safe or it's safe for occupancy there's nowh that it says that a homeowner could potentially build something and circumvent the process whatever it is whether it's this home or not the building got circumvented clearly of what the process is and then he can make a determination of inight spping zone so it should go through the natural process if we're going to use this this this as any occupany it should go through the natural process of what the what's put in place for that every resident would have to follow that's what should happen I mean it should be clear that is what they did do and we deny their application to to build this to convert their second floor well he reject he he decided to pull pull that out and never he decided to Mr Ward decided not to continue to go that forward go forward with that right it wasn't rejected was going through the process he did go through that process but he decided change something but he decided to pull the application but right now we're just talking about the same thing that's why this came up right cuz realize once we see the drawings that this space is there so he he did submit an application he he did get um feedback and questions and uncovered uncovered a lot of issues about the structure and the legality of it and and the use of it and and and the number of bedrooms and then he decided that it probably wasn't going to go favorably so he withdrew right now he he's made the property has been made aware to the town let's say or to the public that it has issues I understand what you said but we don't go around and just we have a pre-existing non-conforming almost everything in Plum Island there are a lot of stuff in town that does it and we don't drive around and just pull up the truck and look at somebody and say you you're your property is not conforming you I wouldn't expect you to do that by you got to move your so here with with you know this is before us and so we appreciate the application in pointing out the conditions um the you know the wrongful conditions that don't meet the zoning bylaw but in short of tearing down the garage in those spaces the use of those spaces remain remain what storage sure other garage storage and garage like it was built for so that's I mean that's that's so even if we said that it still comes down to the enforcement of the building inspector which is where I'm thinking the the issue goes and if you wanted to press it further then you could take it the landport and but we we would live with that determination though it there is a big difference between you saying um you know we know it's never been authorized but we think it's okay versus it's an unlawful use like as as they stand right now because no permits have been issued uh no zoning relief has been granted right now in the current state using that space as living area whether it's a second unit or even an extension of the single family house is is unlawful they haven't gotten what they need to do that if they want to come in next month with an application for a finding to extend their single family use to include the use of this space they they can do that and you could even give them time like that's I partly why I think the Lan cod in that other case gave them time to remove these things you have a line of contractors too but it also gives them time if they want to come in and pursue your approval to actually use this space is a an extension of the single family use as a living space then they can come to you and as sim said go through the the normal process for getting that authorization right now they don't have it if they want to apply for it that's fine but then there's a hearing process they're going to have to explain why the structure what why their proposed use satisfies the criteria and maybe at that time you'll grant them that that approval we don't need to speculate as to how that's going to be because we don't know in the last application before you they assumed that the use back there was lawful and what they were trying to do was to expand it and build above it saying why is this a big deal we're just relocating our existing bedroom and we came in and said they can't do that that bedroom is not a lawful bedroom they can't just re they don't have the right to relocate it what they're actually asking for you what they were asking for you was to authorize the creation of a new lawful bedroom in addition to the three or four that they already had in the main house that was our contention and that was in dispute but as things stand right now they don't have the authorization and we are asking for you to render a decision confirming that even if enforcement is difficult we're okay with that at least the buyer of this property knows that they're not allowed to use that as a living area if they go out in 2 weeks and they are are doing it in violation of the order May if it's a problem because there are 10 people using it as a living area maybe we'll be back in front of it or maybe they'll just use it illegally and it'll never come back to you because they're being so careful about it the fact that it's difficult to enforce isn't a reason not to issue the right answer that's the point Thank you just for that last one I think that there is there does be some sense of reason you can't be enforcing rules that are unreasonable that you can't actually enforc and there has to be some the reason why these things are handled locally is because there's got to be some reasonable people in the neighborhood who understand how these things work and and enforce them reasonably and my point with respect to the bathroom is that um uh Mr ward has a niece who who uses that room when he is staying there who is handicapped and uses that restroom for that reason he would be much more okay with taking out the kitchenette than taking out the bathroom taking out the bathroom simply makes it for the person who's staying in that room to use the restroom I mean that to me is I don't see the legal basis for that and I think that that is not what we're here to do we're here to decide whether or not the building inspector was correct that's the order that was appealed and removing the restroom would simply make it unusable for the specific people who use that for their own privacy and while Mr Wards living there you know with his niece when she's visiting um and you know when he's ready to get out to people I don't I don't know what other situations there are that that may be presented there but I don't understand the legal basis for removing the restroom or you know and I would ask also that there's a little more specification as to what removing the restroom specifically means um in terms of whether or not we're talking about digging up floors and tearing out pipes or you know I to me there's no basis for removing the restroom and if it was between the kitchenet or the restroom and if it's the combination of those that creates this problem the kitchenet would be much more uh much easier to remove and it would be much more acceptable given uh Mr Ward's niece who uses that room thank you I think for me for me I'd be a proponent of having both removed both the kitchen and the bathroom REM but definitely the bathroom because that supports Peter Bennett's enforcement of no FR no short-term rentals once there's a bathroom in there there's still the the capacity that someone could you know rent that space separately and again then it just comes down to someone enforcing it so for me 100% bathroom would have to come out but I I'm PR for the kitchen coming up as well yeah I'm with Michelle I'd like excuse me I'd like to have a sink in my garage which I did um but I don't think I need a bathroom in the garage and I think it also as she said goes along with the building inspector order that that can neither be a rented nor a bedroom so that sort of takes care of the KN isue I I think in that sense you're going to end up with an appeal from both sides and you're just going to be back here again um I think we got to remember the place is for sale so the use it's for sale and this is what's going to happen is we don't get a clear determination on this the next owner is going to come in and this is going to continue to go that's why you know the Zoning Board needs to take this out it's not a and to me when you remove the kitchen you remove the bathroom it now is a space it's a garage with a heater in it which can be all over it could it could be all over town everyone could put and and to me that I don't know how we control the use of someone putting a heater in their garage and saying you can't hang out in that space though or you can't watch TV in that space or um so so to me it is a hybrid of I think similar to what you're saying so I would just go one step further with the kitchen the real um solution in order to control the use would be to to have it removed to have that space at the back of the garage removed period once and for all it would be clearly obvious um to have the dwelling unit and to have sanitary um um provide sanitary conditions means that you have to have a bathroom a kitchen can be a counter with a hot plate a microwave a small fridge and so the kitchen act doesn't doesn't do doesn't do it in terms of removing the use of and trying to limit this to just space in a house or space of the garage which it can be and so the restroom and and even having a family member that is separate that wants privacy uh bodes to the use of of using it as a second dwelling on the property as opposed to one dwelling and if if the person that that or if somebody is in the garage using storage space and needs to use the facilities they have to go into the main house if people are there and the Gathering is large and there's a large Beach Bar e they have to go into the house so the removal to the bathroom to me is is is all encompassing of of how that space can be used and separated and if if um if the new owners um adult kids want to have a big bash and they invite everybody and they're all focused to use this one restroom that's outside of the main dwelling unit that that is a different condition than inviting people into your house and and having control over the situation because of of where um where the bathroom is inside a house so that is the driver for me to remove um the restroom and at the bathroom and I would go as far as to say um yeah I I would probably then now after this discussion had that the plumbing needs to be brought back to the to the mainline so that there is no extension to the location of the previous bathroom but that's not removal of a structure that is removal of the bathroom and the plumbing it's not removal of the physical structure of the four walls in the the roof I think we would call that cut and cap perhaps cut and cap so I hear both sides I know this is a tricky property I know the conditions aren't right [Music] um I think we're we're we're understanding that there is effort by the building inspector to improve the situation that has been brought reform and for me the zoning board would add to that to even improve the condition for which the the order understanding of his enforcement that's where I stand so it's um you know the space is the space and we're not going to take it to the next level to to call it out that it can't be quote lived in and we're not going to [Music] um you know we're going to make conditions in order to improve the condition that's there for the use that makes it a more Sim property to the to the neighbors so that's that's how I see it um and if if anybody sees anything to the contrary then maybe there's another enforcement order that comes up if you guys want to take it to land court on either side to argue your point go get go go to land court and let them make that enforcement rule I think we're fine with it with storage removing the plumbing and that's what you know as I said it's been used as a separate dwelling sne comes over uses as a separate dwelling it that's what our Our concern is Plumbing removed uh storage and I think that that the the structure is grandfathered and they want to turn into a kitchen and the bathroom and all stuff to go this morning and make it a seate un and go through the process we would [Music] be hey you're saying here you're you're saying I'm not 100% on the on the kitchenet space but I am 100% on the on the that I think I'm ready to make a motion if we're ready to accept one do we need any more discussion um I don't think so so we're we're at the point that we're ready to make a decision we're going to close the hearing at this point so that we can make a decision and then move forward so if there's a motion to be had um first I make a motion to close the meeting right and then the motion would be to deny the appeal confirm the building inspector's ruling with the added stipulation that the sanitary facilities in the garage structure be cut and capped and the the confirming of the ruling is is a combination of 1 the 12 2723 building inspector's letter and is updated and this today's okay is there a second second is there any more discussion I all right all those in favor I I okay is that clear to everybody in the room um appreciate both sides um discussing this and and hearing this and do please understand when something like this comes it's very tricky we're not discussing between the meetings and so it takes a little extra effort on our part to hear everything think about it and and then act where um if we were a larger board we might be able to have some side discussions which may help may help Advance discussions and understanding and interpretations you have a time frame for them to remove uh it will come out in the decision uh and we will see a draft of the decision I think I would talk to the building inspector on what is um what is his typical enforcement and then as we read the draft we have an opportunity to maybe add a condition or or clarify the condition I would say just to be clear so the extension that we signed tonight gives the board till June 27 to finalize and file with the town clerk the decision just so everyone knows that that's the that's the time frame as it stands now unless we agree to extend it further correct next time we'll meet will be the third Thursday of June um but there'll be no discussion that we could participate in at that time right no reason for us to be here okay no we closed it and um I I don't think we want to um we could split hairs and we could talk about this for months but I think that's the decision that that is the decision that we are today thank you thank you thank you thank you appreciate your time all right Jack please uh we have another public hearing this one is new Christopher and Megan Mercier of 31 Ral say the applicants are requesting special permit slinding for relief from sucess section 97-110 D2 C detached accessory Apartments of the newre zoning bylaw and any other permit Rel that may be required under the town of newre zoning bylaws to allow the proposed new SL project in order to contu construct a detached accessory unit for use as an accessory apartment on the property located at 31 RW sling next uh assessor map U6 lot 124 here name I don't know this is hi oh how you doing I'm whatting you Butters I just came here to how are you good under need the town I thought it would be interesting to see how things work oh yeah of course I thought you were part of no I'm just here out of curiosity do I come up here yeah tell them what you guys want to do um so we live at 31 RS as you know and my mother-in-law currently lives with us um she um has Liv with us for the last uh gosh 11 years um in ainon New Hampshire we came from before and we had an in-law for her and our hope is to build one on our property um conforming to all the bylaws in town um that will just be for her we're not renting it or anything like that okay so um appreciate you making the application and the statement we've had it was continued at first and so now we're here hearing it no this is new this is new okay that that came in uh last week but it's a supplemental submitt for the new hearing so so I've reviewed it I have some comments if you you D well I just saw this today with the but yes same with her yes I okay so in terms of accessory Apartments this is one of I wouldn't say the easier but it's the little more straightforward because everything is really clearly listed in the bylaws um and so under 97-1 D accessory Apartments it goes through the purpose and intent it talks about the apartment applicability it talks about General requirements and then there's a section that gets skipped because those are attached and then there's a section on detached and so typically we go through and and and read it line by line to make sure that we're of the understanding that everything all the conditions whether they are um applicability whether they're General requirements or whether they're specific to detach are met okay okay so in in high level overview the accessory apartment is is secondary to the existing or the primary dwelling let's say correct the utilities from the primary dwelling the sorry the utilities to this detached accessory apartment need to come from the main house you can't have some some separate utilities coming from the street um can I ask you a question on that um or I can wait to the end if would you per me wait yeah I got few more question um you AC the intended use the intended use uh is in keeping with um the purpose and intent in terms of providing additional um residential uh housing or for needs of the life cycle uh and multigenerational households um so with that then this is obviously proposed to be detached we go through the general requirements the size of home and the size of the accessory apartment um need to be confirmed the utilities as I said need to be confirmed um on the parking on the site plan the question uh of parking comes up and where parking would be provided and I know that you said that this is for your your mother-in-law but once the structure is here should you all move out tomorrow then this is existing somebody else comes in somebody else has to actually reapply for the special permit for the detached accessory apartment but um your intended use may not be the the same as their intended use and so the bylaw although is set up to make sure that the general requirements are met M and if you told me that your mother-in-law doesn't drive anymore we'd still have to show and have a parking space defined or provided as defined in the bylaw okay does that make sense of course yep okay okay um so your property has an easement on it for two other properties to to access their property uper rol L yes but we ow on the driveway okay are there any deed restrictions on the easement given to the other properties for Access clarify that I don't understand the question you have piece property y you have an easement on your property that easement is is given to the other neighbors so that they so there's some ement language we don't have ement language we we own the entire the entire driveway and they have the easement to get up our driveway to their houses okay so it's a um am I am I not following you there is a requirement and again if we go as we should probably just read this one by one it says that there are no um deed restrictions on the property and so we're just having you prove out that there's no deed restrictions on the property there's no deed restrictions on the property so we asked that he would submit a copy of the deed in order to to clarify that and make sure that there's no um where would I get that you would probably have it with your your purchase papers of the of the house it's in the application I gave you you did okay I don't have it um I it sorry it was in the email so I didn't print all um I did print it before I was under the understanding just with working with Chrissy that we had um I know we got we have to go through them but I pretty sure we met all the requirements okay doesn't list any restrictions okay great um so parking is one um the restrictions with another and then I I guess I do have I do have some concern in the placement of of the accessory apartment okay you're you've got a house you've got a patio you've got a pool and then you have the accessory apartment so the person accessing the accessory apartment has to come up the drive park next to the house has to go across the patio through the pool enclosure to get to you don't have to go through the pool you can um or you can go around the pool too is there a direct connection proposed direct connection from the proposed accessory dwelling unit to the pool patio space I'm sorry can you repeat that is there a direct connection uh extension of the patio up to the proposed apartment like a walkway yes yes there's um there's a whole deck area so from the driveway there's a um gate into where the pool area is and then there's a whole patio around the pool um and it's there's going to be um like there's fence there right now of course cuz the pool has to be fenced in but it will be that will be opened up to the front of the Adu so is there a way that could be a walkway that goes around behind past the garden I think that's what we're asking well do I need to have two no you don't but I I um all say it other than I don't like the the dwelling you have it for your in-laws the proximity of the apartment to the house for somebody that is family um may not be the best relationship for somebody that's not family in the future and the intent isn't to create a pool Cabana for a house on a property is intended to create a a residential apartment unit that gets used that gets served um as providing you know additional uh living unit for for somebody it understanding it's the family but it's relationship to the pool to the house in its position where you've put it um seems a little precarious for use for someone else that's not family to be living in there as the main house is using the pool and the the adjacent in proximity to the pool and using this apartment I guess our intent for it was twofold um and I do understand what you're saying you're saying down the line because we we we care about your current situation but we also want to make sure that the property and anything that any permits uh any special permits anything that the zoning board would approve has a longevity for the best interest of the the property the neighbors and the town well no and I understand that but as far as if someone were using it after for rental I guess is that what wouldn't that be up to the owner of it to use it either as a rental and if they were comfortable with it or for them to use it as a pool house yeah I so we're small town we have bylaws the bylaws aren't excessive and covering a thousand different conditions but if if the intent is to that ask for this as an accessory apartment then the the benefit of making it a unit which has bedroom it has living space it has kitchen space it has sanitary space that all just been through um means that it has the ability to to provide for somebody and for for somebody to to set that up and then not rent it but just use it as part of an extension of the house isn't the intent of the bylaw and we don't we don't quite have the writing that specifically limits that but this is why we go through the process and we you have to submit and we have to review and understand it um okay I guess I'm just not understanding though the a future owner would have the ability to to decide whether or not the proximity from the pool to the house is too close for their comfort and if it was they would choose not to rent it out as a a AUD whereas for us or you could just use it as a poolhouse or if they were comfortable with it they could choose to so if it was a pool house and it was chose not to be rented then the enforcement would be that you would not have the special permit for accessory apartment and again the plumbing would have to be removed you could you know there are people that have had an accessory use structure with um you know with space um with space but we're we're you know if it is a if it has all the pieces of a dwelling unit then it's a dwelling unit and it's not a pool house who so I guess who if it I I do I not make the do we not meet the CR like so the town of Newbury can decide where on my property I decide to put an accessory dwelling unit I'd like I have other questions about like the Neighbors at 35 RS Lane and where um where their house is in proximity to this proposed apartment um I don't know which 135 is so well let's just say any any neighbor that the fact that um we'd like to understand in terms of the what is proposed like where the doors where the lights on like do you have a back patio that's separate just for the proposed for the for the apartment does that have a light does does does the light it's it's 13 ft 10 ft is the dimensional setback which you're pretty close if if is that the house directly behind you yeah so if if if these people had a house here and you're adding an apartment and you're adding lights and you're adding lights that shine on a back patio and there's there's not sufficient screening then you're basically affecting the neighbor and we have controls to try to make sure that that doesn't happen okay so um they actually just built that house behind us right that was not a that was not a house um it's pretty close to the property line correct and the satellite that actually that piece of property used to belong it was done before we bought it um but that property that the one that you're referencing um the former owner sold them land so they could build that right in the backyard that was not there um how do they access that property if it's called off of chandel it's an extension off of chandel and they because it's a new they call it roll L and you access it from it's chandel extension chandel extension and that was that was finished actually within the last uh year we've been we've been dealing with that construction um for 2 years since we've been there they're lovely people but they just built a ginormous house it's a very big house right behind us right on top of our pool um which was already decided before we built we knew it was going there um um I have a question just on this plan this 100t buffer line is that from the pond mhm so this do you does your house now do you need flood insurance like this is within that 100t buffer line we do not have we don't need flood insurance now but the new structur is in the 100ft buffer line I don't um so that's a wetland they'll have to go before it comes okay so they would talk about that right yeah that would be their yeah are you aware that you have to go through con how close how close is it showing it 51 ft from the pond yeah we were told that by the person who did the survey that we may have to go in front of conservation right yeah cuz you're within the 100 foot Z okay yeah and I think they just said that that would be putting like extra netting and whatnot um um so nothing ran into it it would be erosion controls and controls and things like that okay but you know they might impose other conditions as well okay are you um on a septic system here or you you a public you public yeah um how many bedrooms are in your house your current house um five and okay so the size uh obviously the size of the existing dwelling but the size of the proposed structure is 720 ft so that's just a single floor yes that's laid out um is the I'm I'm sorry I don't have all the the drawings that were submitted by email so I'm I'm kind of going over a few things Jack if you have those does the intended design of the house match of the apartment match the house well I don't think we have the exterior versions We just have the 4 any yes we it's the intended um look of it is to be a c just like ours is [Music] and on floor plan can I ask what the what is the 12 by 12 bump out we just going to do a little sun room for her just so that she had a little bit more space and no exterior access just no windows oh Windows all around it yes okay yeah the whole thing would be Windows all all around all right so that uh the tax accessory Department shall meet the following General requirements uh the lot size minimum lot size for accessory Apartments into tax structures and existence of the date that's not it except for apartments and tax structures constructed after the date uh of the adoption of this bylaw shall be 60,000 Square ft says area is 31,000 squ ft so we need that um next is where accessory departments are prented in existing detach structures any exist exterior modifications um assume that in terms of building new that the appearance and purpose for which the structure was originally built um the accessory department is incorporated into a new structure the new structure shall be compatibly compatible in style with the principal dwelling on the same lot it's a single story 720 squ ft building the proposed building scale shall be consistent with the single family residential character of the lot in the shy neighborhood uh a budding property shall be protected uh from the prop proposed use on the site by provisions of adequate puffers screening against light Sight and Sound so um at 13 ft the question of um offense of screening of there is a fence there landscaping and where you might have lights and in terms of any access in and out of the unit so if there's windows and the only the only access is through the front door um do we have elevations yes okay so let's go to is this like a little porch so these column yeah par just out to the pool area that you're talking yeah yes so that goes up to the pool you have in terms of the site and it seems in terms of everything that you you have um the the size of the lot and enough area to put a deashed accessory apartment um we do find it um problematic that the accessory apartment backs up to the pool patio that's an enclosed protection around the pool and that somebody has to go through the pool space in order to access their the apartment um as you said and as we understand understand there in terms of family relationships is one thing but in terms of having a structure that has the ability to be rented to somebody else that's independent of the people living in um one or the other it does not seem adequate to make somebody Traverse the pool enclos pool enclosure to access this apartment if it was adjacent in another direction and you could access the front door without going through the pool that would be a different story um but the apartment is subservient to the use of the pool and and that does not seem to meet the the intent of the apartment on the lot um is there is there writing that states that it it can't I don't understand how it's very easy to to get to it it's not it's right off of the driveway the the walk there's a a fence for the door it's exteme it's a 30 second walk it's all paved um the existing home in the accessory apartment shall comply with all applicable health safety building and other applicable codes in effect at the time of the granting of the building permit and of the special permit were uh applicable I think I'm calling into question the safety of of somebody having to go through a protected area to get to their apartment the fact that that two separate entities can use that same area um it doesn't seem like a good placement of an accessory apartment the fact that you're very close 13 ft to the property line um and somebody else in terms of how they use their space Also doesn't seem like a great location on a lot that has a lot of space on it we were just we were trying to make it so that it was also um not intrusive to the neighbors that a lot of thought went into the placement of this so that it wasn't an eyore to people um it's a very cute structure but to not be in the sight of all of our neighbors um but also to serve the house for future use too for somebody uh to bring value to the property as well that it doesn't have to be used as an Adu it could also be used for the pool if somebody didn't want an Adu on the property it was it could serve two purposes so there could be somebody that moves in there that doesn't want to rent it or does not have family to use it the building in if you went to the building inspector and asked to build this structure as a pool house he would reject you and say you can't do that so to say that you're looking to possibly use it as a pool house is part of the problem of its adjacency to the pool that's that's that's where I'm at um what can I ask why he would reject it the pool house because of you're having a separate because the structure could be used as an accessory apartment and you're seeking to use it as an accessory to the main dwelling without calling it apartment and if it is an apartment then then we have conditions so and we talked to Peter about it because we we talked to him about it and where it would be placed and he didn't see an issue with it serving both purposes um he is the building inspector correct he is um that's been talked toe it's our it's our it's our special permit that needs to be granted so in terms of buildability of of of you know he's sending you to us for the special permit we're reviewing the special permit if he feels it could be built in that part of the site that's one thing but he's not um he's not the granting Authority for reviewing the conditions of an accessory apartment I just don't know where in the in the bylaws that you're reading where it specifically says though I have a walk I have a big walkway to I understand there's a pool there but there's nothing in there that says a pool can't be within x amount of feet from an Adu um there's that's your that's your personal opinion and I and I understand you're privy to your own opinion but there's nothing in what you're reading to me that says that I can't put an Adu that has a safe pathway there's nothing unsafe about it it's completely paved um I I meet all the other criteria of it but it's of your opinion that you don't like that you have to go through a pool and there's nothing in the town laws that say I can't be next to a pool my house is next to a pool there's there's nothing in the vla there's nothing that says you know where you're located in terms of accessory apartment and building in proximity to a pond you know that's under Conservation Commission The Building Commissioner will will understand the building and and the construction of the actual structure our thought of of this DET detached accessory apartment as it would be used by somebody that is either family or somebody that is not family is is the concern for its longevity and the use of well we tried to use it for family and it didn't work so we're not going to and it's too close to the pool to rent it to somebody else so we're just going to use it as a pool comana isn't the argument that for positioning and the location of it so I don't understand how you can you can tell me where I can and can't put it on my property when I meet all the criteria for it and I have a safe I have a safe access part point to to the house there the safe access well and I'm questioning the safe access that I don't think opening the gate to walk across the pool patio with a pool to get to your residence is is a proper way to access the the apartment that it separates the apartment from the pool so that if the main dwelling is using the pool it is separated and the person that is in that dwelling unit doesn't have to cross that as they're using it there's some separation of use here it might also be a question of precedent I mean I've been we have plenty of pool houses or Cabanas or whatever in Newbury but I'm not aware of any adus that access through a pool maybe there are some but maybe you know of some how do I can I just say it's a pool house then well it be a separate application I think would it I'm fine calling it a pool house I I don't care if it's a if it's labeled an Adu that's that a pool house required but acceptable by planning I think I would have any jurisdiction over that do you think CL what then that adds another bedroom to the main dwelling it's a pool house so it's just called a pool house but but it is a dwelling un we just went through this it has a room has and has a kitchen so it is a dwelling unit no I'm suggesting that where she to withdraw her application for an Adu and ask for a building permit for a cabana whatever you want to call it so can I maybe suggest something instead of blowing this whole thing up right is it possible maybe to build a walkway around the fence so you enter it so you I can absolutely but I would like it to still have doors to yeah I guess that's the part that's in question I think and the safety of that part so can I just call a cabana a pool Cabana um I don't think it could be used an ad yeah it couldn't could someone couldn't live in it yeah it's not an ether war and so we're we're trying to preclude the you know part of it is precluding it from being a glorified pool Cabana because it didn't kind of work out for uh an apartment and so that that's where I'm calling in the question of its positioning and its location and its relationship to the pool and the fencing securing the pool could I put a door on the on the 12x 12 sun room that she could enter through there so you don't have to go through the pool so there would be two entrances yeah yeah but what about also just only having a gate in the pool not not having the pool fence extend up to the the structure of the house I'm sorry say that again what about what so you you step out of the house you're on your patio patio and then the entrance to the pool is a gate you're not you're not taking the pool and extending it to the structure in order to make the structure part of the enclosure of the pool so I need to put a gate in front of yeah to separate the pool use from that would look horrible well yeah but that goes with the intent of what you're you're doing you're you're you know but I'm giving I'm I'm I'm giving a remedy to your concern your concern is that somebody would have to walk through the pool if I give another entrance in the sun room to the house they no longer they have two egresses now they can either enter it from the pool or they could enter it from the side from the sunro and my concern is that your positioning and location you know it looks like a duck it smells like a duck it it basically is a glorified poolhouse and if situations don't happen where somebody is not living there then it turns into a pool house that it shouldn't be and so that that is where the positioning the location and the understanding of how you access it both from around the pool and how you access the apartment to the pool is is controllable and I know it wouldn't look good but um you're basically making an apartment that AB buts and is is basically part of the pool function and that's that's not an a detached accessory Department I just I I just don't understand how how you you can say that based off of what that says there's nothing that says I can't put it there there's there's why couldn't if someone was renting that house say down the line which we will never use it is that who's to say that they can't use the pool if the owners the the I'm not saying they can't use the pool but I'm saying joining the pool to your accessory apartment and joining it to the house is is not a detach pached accessory apartment why it's a pool Cabana why can't it be both you can't have both why because then you would have to remove the kitchen if it was a pool Cabana or you'd have to remove the bathrooms you didn't have B but why can't it still be just called an AUD that has access to a pool it's still an AUD that has access to a pool right it just doesn't open up in a grand way to have its Portico right on the pool deck what does that M but I I just don't understand why that matters I'm not trying to split ha you I just don't understand why that matters that because we like the intended use to stay the intended use and not drift into something else because it kind of sort of and so the positioning of the house to relation to the pool to the house seems to matter when somebody you know would rent this and would drive up and have their parking space and be able to independently access their apartment to of Newber care because we don't want to exacerbate conditions of expanding properties that's the whole point of zoning is to have some control and some limits and some definitions around what can happen on a piece of property so that everybody has the same rights and conditions and the town of Newbery has chosen to allow accessory Apartments either within or detached and they have these regulations but there's nothing in that regulations that says I can't put it there there's nothing in there that says I cannot put a AUD there aside from you saying you don't like the idea of someone having to walk around a pool you're saying that the paper doesn't say that then just go do it don't come before us I mean you're here because you have to oh my goodness really I'm I me I meet all the I meet all of your criteria I just think you're trying I just think existing homes and accessory apartment shall comply with all the applicable why would you tell me safety building and other applicable laws other applicable codes in effect the time I'm issue and I'm telling you it's a separation issue and it's our judgment in which to make to understand that the detached accessory apartment meets the terms and intents and I can go through the int the intent here so you're telling me that I should just go and build it but I'm trying to go by and do it no I'm trying to tell you that you're looking for specific I gave you a specific reference it's uh 97-110 d this is I can't be next to pool it I'm calling it in my opinion I think it's a safety concern they do list we do do a pretty good the Town does a pretty good job of listing all the reasons why you can get uh an accessory dwelling unit and one of them is not a pool house you know that it's for multigenerational living to encourage uh families to stick together to provide that's exactly what we're doing right absolutely we agree with all of that it's it's just the safety issue as the shamman said and that's kind of that's one of the things that's hard to spell out each case is different so you have to have some judgment and multigenerational houses if somebody moved in to a to an accessory apartment and had a child it wouldn't be safe to have the the the apartment unit opened directly into an enclosed pool we're actually an elderly person who might not be stable on the patio and they have to go right past the pool to get to their so protect the stability property values and residential character of the neighborhood by ensuring that the accessory Department meets the Criterion specified in this section I I don't think we have any problem with the with your property your size and um it's the location that is the issue in terms of having an accessory apartment is is what I'm not um comfortable in its location because of it's its um you know ability and you even said to possibly use it as a poolhouse so that's that's where what would make it a pool house can can I understand what would make it a what would well pool house is usually attached to an enclosed area that is of the pool MH so that is a pool house so that you can go use the pool and get into the pool housee without having to go in and out of a out of the fence so what can I have in a pool house how can I make it a pool house you could not do the bathroom that would be a pool house you could not do the kitchen but maybe put in the bathroom the the the struggle here would be accepting the bathroom because once you have a bathroom and once you have a counter space then you have the means to make a separate dwelling unit which it would be an attach accessory apartment and if you don't have a special permit then it shouldn't be had on the property that's kind of the struggle you heard us going through the previous applicant so we don't want to create something that has a condition to to be some something that isn't that isn't officially granted it's not supposed to be a poolhouse that has all the ability to be a separate dwelling unit you can't have a separate dwelling unit on your your property you can have a detached accessory apartment and the positioning and the location and the size and the relationship to of that detached apartment to the house is the purview that the the zoning bylaws are trying to to govern and control [Music] may ask a question could she in theory have the uh the pool house through a building permit and then place the detached accessory unit somewhere else on the property where it would fit where it wouldn't couldn't be considered house you wanted to build an accessory structure and you have uh the size and you know you meet the general f of the proper in the lot you can do that move the move the detach accessory apartment somewhere else on the property not near the pool but get a building permit for the pool house talk to Peter about that that way you could still have both and then we could do a special maybe we could do a special condition that the pool house could never be used as the Adu and the Adu can never be used as I think if the fence is continuous around the pool with a with a gate and the house is the apartment is moved back so that there's some space between the apartment and the enclosure of the pool and you have the path that goes around but that's great that that in terms of the intent of creating an an accessory apartment that could be used by by family or any other generational members would meet all the meet the requirements and you know it wouldn't and couldn't be construed as a as a pool house can the gate be opened to the pool yes but the fence you should have a continuous fence as you do now which actually looks like it's being it's kind of proposed can't quite read the plan but the the fence should go around the pool patio so could I have the fence go to the Perot and then opens to the pool would you guys so long as there's a fence that that blocks off the pool from the Adu yeah I would think you'd want to not have the fence hit the perola CU as you said and I would agree that that would be kind of precarious and ugly and and kind of a a misunderstanding but if they there was just some separation between that pergula and the fence and a short walkway that brings you to a gate and not a whole opening then I think you have control of the pool area and you have control of the apartment somebody can doesn't have to walk through the pool if somebody else is using it in order to access their apartment and you provide the parking space on the plan for them I think you've met all the requirements and then it can't be misconstrued as a it still could but at least it's it's not apparent that the fence is going right up to the front of this structure which is so I just move it back a little bit Mo it well you have to move yeah you can be within 10 ft and then you'd have to slide it closer little closer to the pond and you'd have to show us how the fence of the pool is not um not engaged with the house but there's a gate that separates the pool deck from access to this apartment but so so I'm under the same understanding as you that that the fence that separates the house and the pool can be the same fence it just opens yeah I mean I think I'm just simple diagram you have this is pool so this is the can I come up CL sure yeah please do this is the apartment mhm this is your your perala this is a short walkway and here's the pool and here's the fence so I can put like plants here and all that that's fine what I'm not saying is you you put the fence to here and to here and and the pool deck extends directly to this this this is the access point and then maybe from here is the walkway that takes you to your so you still you still want a door on the or from you can have the side the the walkway that gets you from this Point around without going through the pool you can put the walkway up to to here if you wanted to okay I think are you okay with if I had a double opening yeah you can have a double opening okay but I think that guarantees that if these people are separate from these people and and there is some control like I'm using the pool today and you can't come in or I'm using the pool you can't come in then there's some separation that does it and it does limit it as being a wide open Cabana to the pool okay it's it's um I still think it's a little precarious but at least it it meets what my intent would be about having separation safety having ability for people in the apartment not to act interact with anybody inside the safety area of the pool okay that's a good compl that is a separate accessory apartment okay otherwise you have something that's attached to the pool it's attached to the house which isn't really accessory can I take a picture of that sure do have it sorry for the quick sketch but I didn't mean to snap at you before but it's it's I I didn't take you a snapping I just wasn't understanding it's we try hard we try to be very um helpful to Residents because we're all residents um but we are trying to hold and to to govern and to protect property so things don't become something else and maybe the past application had um risen all our blood pressures a little bit because it happened and it wasn't supposed to happen and it causes great issue and we spent a lot of time I'm also looking at it from my neighbor's point of view too and I'm trying to make it so that there's just not another house plopped on my property so I'm I'm also looking at it from a resident's point of view and trying to make it a beautiful area for both myself and my neighbor so that I'm not up upsetting my Butters yeah you know if we're if we're [Music] talking like a minimum of that could be 4T and this is the pool deck I think there's reasonable separation and yes I don't know that I have four feet cuz I own how much do I didn't you say I only have 13 um well you can you can have but what I'm saying is if you if you take this and maybe just move it so it starts here like that you you've pushed it back this way but you've also pushed it back that way a little bit along so that that corner is 10 ft off but there's a little bit more separation here okay 10 ft is the minimum 10 ft is the minimum from the proper property line and then then I think it meets where I know for my opinion it would meet because it could be totally separate and be totally independent although it's on and it is a little um as much as we want the accessory Department to be within View and it is subservient to the main dwelling you still have to give private you still have to create something that that the resident in that apartment would have privacy so that it doesn't become defunct and nobody really wants to rent it because it is too close to the pool and then it becomes a glorified cool house of which we tried to stop or not allow and so the condition like that and having that fence me um although I'd like to see it a little bit further or a little bit closer to the driveway I I could see that separation happening or that you provided that separation and therefore it's good I ask you a question if it were um so if it were here would that make any difference yeah put it right where that Garden is Str that's the problem yeah no I got I got it right here it's a new report you don't even have to come see us again I think as long as there's this separation it can happen anywhere around obviously you probably don't want to put it in the backyard where on this patio you have some privacy from from this you also want to maintain at least 50 ft here yeah so I'm pushing it back that's going to imp on the pond isn't it yeah you might need to twist it a little bit but you want to try to stay out of the the 50t bucker could you between 50 and 100 can you not flip this so the sun room is facing this way you can't cuz of a hell you can't get out of the sun room if you put it over here cuz this too close to the the fence the other house well have have have the surveyor look at it a little closer proximity as to what can be tweaked here but anywhere anywhere that this condition occurs around the pool deck provides the separation it's all it's all after and actually the closer to I would think closer to a parking space for somebody to walk to their unit and back and then your mother-in-law right it's your mother-in-law right from the she can still get to the pool but doesn't have to go around there so that's an issue with our neighbors over here here why is that an issue just the placement of it he doesn't want it there he but this guy wants it but this guy wants it here this guy's huge this guy just bu his house on top of our so I would double just check that you're okay with it that close to that house you're like it there for privacy for my pool it will give us a little bit of privacy cuz right now we don't have any privacy um where that house was built we have no privacy behind us right but you're also putting an apartment as the blocker for your privacy but now you're you're putting an apartment closer to their house which doesn't give them much privacy so again well or the person in the apartment that's what I'm saying yeah oh yeah so just trying to make sure that the apartment is as great as it can be so it can be rented and it can be sought after because that's a great asset Newberry it's not just an asset to you and your your home but that's the definition of what the accessory apartment is trying to get at so if you did I mean I wouldn't put the accessory apartment here and everyone's headlights are always shining in the accessory apartment that would be a great location for it because but I mean if you did put it over here and you put a cup is there any planting here or is this just like all open it's all open there a shed there but that's their driveway oh it comes up like this my property literally goes goes right up to their driveway and actually I own 6 ft of both of their it's my land but it's their land as well like my land stops and their starts but mine goes over 6 fet onto their pass this is our driveway that we own and then 6 ft of you were right away at 6 fet yeah I mean I I think certainly anywhere over here would be super um and I think here as long as you can make some separation happen I I don't think we have have I have any issues I don't know if the other board members do but I think it meets the intent of what an apartment is supposed to be in terms of providing access to the users whoever they may be and not becoming what it's not supposed to be it's the perola is 4T from the access accessory dwelling unit itself if that is if this is 4 ft from this could I just add fence in here I think that kind of as you said would be ugly and it kind of detracts from it I and then you're going to put a double gate and onto here I mean even even if this I would go back and look at it and see what you can do for the four feet and try to try you see four is 4T the minimum I'd like to see 4 feet I think if you have them look closer and you can show what you can do to provide some separation that is reasonable that someone steps off onto something and then steps over here maybe it is a little less because you just can't work it out but I think there's some re reasonability that we can come to as long as you meet theend go separation and right and there's a gate and the G and the pool enclosure doesn't come and meet the house so that the the apartment is part of the pool well yeah the pool wasn't there the pool wasn't going the house wasn't going right at the pool fence that's why there was a purle of there just okay but there is what you know having this having this fence come here or having the fence come to this point and return back to the house so that the face of the house is part of the pool enclosure is is what I'm against having this the pool fence swing by however it does it goes like that yeah so that this is the pool this is here here and this is the pathway and the person can go here and doesn't have to use this that that would mean if if two people in the house they're just they're totally different the apartment is still a good apartment so but I couldn't just have a door here right off of this yeah you you you could can not do this yeah yeah I mean if you didn't want to put a gate here and you just had this in the person had to walk around and access the pool from a different point that that' be even better I think making the person walk across here or come out of their house who be on this loia which is in direct what if they had the opportunity to come out that way or they had the opportunity to come out this way I think yeah you can have I think we're looking for both of these we're looking for some separation here and we're looking for a path around to the D but I can't just have this you can't just have that if if this is the diagram is here is your house and here is your your loia and the and the pool enclosure does anything so that when you open the door you're basically here and you step into the pool area that's not going to that's not going to fly with me if there's some separation where you can step out of your house and be on the deck and say oh I want to open the gate and go into the pool or I can go this way then I think it's it's separated enough this this gate for these people depending on if they had a I don't know they have a child in here this gate could be locked and these people have access around and then there's an accessory apartment that that isn't just the pool house okay and Mr chairman I think there's a few other things under submitt to make it complete that she's going to have to list sure uh location of the utility trench um we got to show how the utilities come from the main house they're already over there when we did the addition above the garage we put utilities over there knowing that we were going to eventually perfect but you need to show them on the sumle so we know where they are um we need where should they go wherever they are you no I know on on this paper yep okay um so they are you're going to need to show your parking spot on this paper Okay um I think the locations of the neighboring houses don't we want to see those to see how close they are but we generally require them to be spotted uh or located on the Lots you said this one's close we believe you I didn't look at the aerial shot so I don't know where those ones are and then I also think the subm missiles require elevations or or profiles or side views of your house because you say it's supposed to be a character we believe that uh but so so the one thing you should think about that we asked applicants is that we're here talking we're understanding we're getting into the details we get it but the application of somebody looks at this and and for the the drawings that get submitted on the with the decision and get recorded as part of your deed if somebody else looks it up we want the minimum there so that they can look at it and go yep okay we got it we have people that submit stuff on like napkins or and dimensions or missing or so the surveyor needs to put the hoses on here yeah so utilities uh a new plan layout the parking spot location of Jason Homes and some simple elevations they don't have to be overly detailed that will also show the Perle or the porch or whatever the heck it's called okay and if there's any Lighting on the exterior lighting and then because what we also want to do is make this pool proof that if someone else was to come in and challenge this and say why did you let this accessory apartment happened we say well here's the drawings here's the layout here's the neighbor we checked out the lighting we checked out the access we checked out um uh the size and character and it's it's all right here because you you'd like that for your neighbor if they were proposing something you'd like to have everything checked off to see it that I need know exactly where all the lighting is going right now Ian well if typically if there's no access off the back of the house no so on another um proposal we had they had a deck and the question is where is the lighting because the deck is in the back the neighbors here the deck faces the neighbors is the light when this guy turns it on going to shine on his property mhm so I would assume that if if you're looking at in the back yeah just facing our house if you have a front elevation with the lighting of the pergola and then make a statement that there's no additional exterior lighting work for this okay can I use a pen just I can write lighting or would you mind writing Lighting on that so what we're going to do is we're going to um make a motion to continue the hearing until the third week in June but which time you can get the drawing updated get it submitted back to Chrissy she can email it to us and we can be prepared in the next meeting to to review the updated information and and move forward so with that we're going to make um is there a motion to continue I make a motion to continue until our next meeting which is June 20th I believe yes here at City Hall at 7:30 okay okay there second second those in favor I I I so as soon as you can get that done the sooner you can get it to CH Chrissy the sooner we can review it before the meeting and become come PR if we have or see anything then we can send it back through Chrissy to you and then we can make sure that everything is everything but before the next meeting Okay so after June you said it was the 30th T 20th 20th after that if they all get pass then then what's the timeline of starting there's a 21 day appeal period 20-day appeal period so uh I can actually also draft the draft the decision uh basically for the next hearing and then hang on second so Jack understand what we just said and discussed and maining the the requirements that we we showed and diagrammed out do you have any did you have any issue if that was all met to no I think it follows the checklist uh you know I think we brought up all the things that were you know not Kosher so no I would have no objection no okay so is there a motion to um for a decision we could could make a motion to draft a decision request that chissy draft a decision contingent on the stipulations that we've told uh I'm sorry the applicant I forget I'm sorry so is there a motion to be had to draft a decision I propose that we make a motion to draft a decision favorable to the applicant uh with the stipulations that we've just spent the last hour going on okay so as long as I meet all of these and show them to you guys then decision at the next hearing you will come back on June 20th and June 20th we will open the meeting we will review your documentation check the boxes we have a motion or we will confirm the motion that we have we also have a draft decision typically we don't do this typically we ask for the information we review it then we make a motion to draft and so that could that could kick you out of two meetings and so I think in the understanding that we just came to and the understanding of what we asked in terms of making it favorable we're trying to move things forward here for you so then after the 20 though there'd still be the 20 days for the abuts to yep I'll mail it out uh that night that night or next day to the abuts that it was approved and then they have 20 days from like the 21st so you'll be saving a month yeah you'll be saving a month so by like July 1st you'd be able to pick up the approved signed decision because if no as long as no appeals are made and then you have to have it recorded and once you send me back the recording information I add it to the building perit and what if there are appeals then then we're into a a process where somebody makes an appeal and then it comes back before us but if I meet all the if I meet all the criteria of it is there well I I think if if we make a decision to vote favorably and and somebody appeals it it might be that they've asked you to put a tree up and you guys could figure out how to make something happen to make them drop their appeal and appease appease them and make it go away and keep going if if the well I feel like we don't like the placement of it but I mean all the criteria of well then you have you would have our backing and support that we made a decision it's favorable and that we reviewed and and we went through all the requirements and that we we made a favorable decision and so the zoning board of appe appeals would stand behind you okay if they if they you guys couldn't come to agreement then then the applicant the Challenger would have to take you to land court and they would have to you know bear the expense of of figuring out whether it was really worth worth it to do it okay so if someone typically in a small town over a small issue has to weigh their their cost of really what they feel I think in the previous case the the um the adjacent neighbors um have have lived with um conditions that they've seen which is why it's a little bit more heated than somebody I think most of the time I don't know that we really get in appe peel unless it's something really unique and special or Gardener's attention which the whole room is full and you've got to have phills McCoy going at it and then so I wouldn't think but that's the proc you know right so with that is there um with that motion is there is there a second okay all right is there any discussion on that think we're good Chrissy do you understand what we made a motion on and the conditions that we had asked for okay all those in favor I I so we'll see you back in a month for it continued if I if I were to decide to move it I just bring in with a new yep just try to get it done as soon as you can try to do it like a week before so that we can get it and did that change the timeline no we'll still talk about it then we will keep the hearing open so that additional information can be submitted okay we will draft the decision you will get the drawings updated Chrissy will get those to us we will review them before the meeting and hopefully things will move quicker because everything is in lock order okay thank you thank you you know open your neighbors I guess Meg nice to meet you never see each other cuz I'm on Fairview oh where is Fairview it's a well it's dead end street it's kind of a buddy your property are you behind are you behind [Music] umy um right next to do you have any questions for us no no okay we're going to move on to the next piece of business sorry I thought you were done sorry is that your phone okay our other business is uh Cricket Lane 55 R Pearson Drive project and we have on the agenda project status and project requirements list so I emailed you all earlier um Town Council review the regulatory agreement hand out this copy Emil to you but I did read it Mar I you want trying to get some reports here yeah so anyway Town Council regulatory agreement and made a couple of comments revie the agreement against the the conditions in the decision one is that the um the decision required that out of the six affordable units one be a four bedroomroom unit and five these three bedroom units and the regulatory agreement doesn't actually mention that I mean it references the decision but it doesn't actually kind of spell that out and the other comment that she had was regarding um the eligible purchaser which from the deed writer indic that that would be a firsttime home buyer um and you know there's this comment was you know what if it were somebody else who was not a first time home buyer who was uh eligible so Doug called me um sent me this email today and then called me um and said that they would be you know fine with with including those Provisions in the regulatory room as long as Mass housing is on with so that's kind of worked and he think he get an answer on that tomorrow so his question to you all was would you you know assuming everybody's an agreement on those would you all be to sign agreement I was hoping that would wouldn't have to go up to the next meeting as I thought we could get the signatures so so the question is if Mass housing agrees to allow the these modifications that that they've agreed to will we sign it well after they agree I would hope yes see would need to give us WR confirmation are you looking for us to sign the signature page tonight and hold it until this comes into you uh I didn't bring I think he would he would uh he would provide a new one I don't know I didn't bring a sign page if this is Lisa's reviews and these are her comments on the agreement then um I would have no issue with these being included period um I don't think anyone else would either so if if it runs due course and and Mr duain can figure out with Mass housing that it's all acceptable and he can provide you the language or the updated Pages then we would be willing to sign yeah and the signatures need to be notorized correct so um who the front desk Gretchen is a notary okay and if Gretchen's not here um Doug said he would be more than happy to come down he's a notary himself and if it took that he would come down here and otherise your signatures so you going to come down here on Saturday morning with coffee and bagel for I don't knowed site visit we can do all the same time um I laugh but I'm just trying to figure when I'm available either like driving home at 7:30 or um like at the weekend sat morning and I'm willing to try to make make it over here to do it Friday sometimes I'm home but you're not open here so just trying to figure it out yeah you can make it work judge will need to do it then if that's what it takes otherwise we're open till you know 7 on Tuesdays okay so yeah I I think we're in agreement that we would accept this you have to see it you have to get the whole agreement and then we need to come in and sign um does Mario have to sign does Michelle have to sign do we all sign um I think the voting members were you Mario and Jack so sorry this was an easy one for you so let's um you'll give us the appropriate email and you'll probably tell us the again and aing the instructions that we have to do to get it so let's just do that as good course good okay is there any other business so that's it I know that um U Mr Ericson is still trying to get the free construction conference uh set up so those are kind of the two two things I actually did go through the decision and the final drawings and I think there are some things that still need to be added like the architectural drawings and that kind of stuff so it's been to sent in a list with a cc to you guys okay yeah I'm surprised architectural drawings don't call out where four and three bedrooms are it's on the phasing plan so there's a phasing plan of which ones will be the affordable units and I think what Lisa was suggesting was that that it should also be shown on noted on there yeah yeah as well as noted and Regulatory AG yeah I saw yeah so that's what I was looking for that doesn't it shows with the low income ones but not the number of bedrooms right okay got usually there's like a little a unit mix a little unit mix you guys have new Cinder Cinder 5 Cinder Avenue yeah which was previously submitted and Chrissy G skinny that it's basically the same as previously we approved it last time correct I think remember that they just didn't move forward in time great motion toour motion toour second second those in favor all